ML20080P123
| ML20080P123 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Vogtle  |
| Issue date: | 11/04/1993 |
| From: | Mosbaugh A AFFILIATION NOT ASSIGNED |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20080P058 | List: |
| References | |
| OLA-3, NUDOCS 9503070217 | |
| Download: ML20080P123 (200) | |
Text
{{#Wiki_filter:. l l 1 i.. , 1 1
% ITED STATES OF AMERICA.'.
^
l 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 OFFICE.OF INVESTIGATIONS ; i 4 l 5 In the. Matter of: ) l i 6 INVESTIGATIVE INTERVIEW OF .) 7 ALLEN MOSBAUGH (CLOSED) i
) '
8 -! l t 9 1701LKings Court i
'10 Grovetown, Georgia I
11 ' i 12 November 4, 1993 1 13 l 14 The above-entitled interview commenced, pursuant - 15 to notice, at 10:15 a.m. 16 17 18 19 20 21 . 22 23 24 25 : PLAINTIFF's ExHisti
' Eq-li
- f4 ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 h Washington, 2.2. 20006 (202) 2C -:950 PAGE_ / _ OF /94PAGE(S) 9503070217 950224 PDR ADOCK 05000424 .y. PDR
,9.m 9 a. m9 9
2 1- ~ APPEARANCES: 2 3 For the Nuclear Regulatory Commission: 4 Mr. Larry L. Robinson i l 5 Investigator 6 101 Marietta Street , 7 Suite 2900 l B Atlanta, Georgia 30323 - E 9 , 10 For Mr. Mosbaught 11 Mr. Stephen M. Kohn (via telephone) 12
]
Kohn, Kohn & Colapinto !
- 13 517 Florida Avenue, N.W.
l 14 Washington, D.C. 20001 15 ! 16 1 17 18 4 19 l 20 21 22 23 24 25 ! ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
. Court Reporters 1613 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
i e i is j 3 1 PROCEEDINGS
'2 i
.(10:15 aunu}' !
3 MR.. ROBINSON: For the record,. this is'an . 4 interview of Mr. Allen Mosbaugh. .The datelis November 4th,c 5 1993. The' time is l':15 0 a.m. The. place'is at Mr. 1 1 6 '! Mosbaugh's house in--mailing address'of;Grovatown,-Georgia. 7 Persons present at the interview lare Mr. Mosbaugh,10I -j B Investigator Larry L. Robinson, and Mr. Mosbaugh's attorney,. 9 Mr. Stephen Kohn. Mr. Kohn is present in this interview- , 10 MR. KOHN: Hello. 11' MR. ROBINSON:
~
. Mr..Kohn is-present in 'this 12 interview by means of a conference caller. He is in his j 13 office in Washington, D.C. And I will ask Mr.:Kohn a .. 1
-l 14 t couple questions regarding'.his attachment byLconference !
15 call. ! l 16 t Mr. Kohn, are.you taping this. conversation? 17 MR. KOHN: I'm--the conversation ire not being 18 taped and I'm the only one present in my officeEand there's 19 no one else who can overhear this conversation. So it's 20 just me. i If anyone enters the room, I'll.immediately notify 21 { you and tell them to leave, 22 i MR. ROBINSON: Thank you. 23 MR. KOHN: The other, thing is, if at some point j 24 Allen thinks he needs to consult with me or if I need to 25 consult with Allen, what we would appreciate is,. if either l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters j 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington. : C. 20006 (202) I'-)-1950 .
i ! 1 l 1 j 4 1 Allen or I, you know, speak up if then we can have--you 2 know, .make this a private line and Allen and I,can consult 3 Ras may be necessary. > 4 MR. ROBINSON: We~will go off the record and you. ', 5 will be permitted consultation at any time. 6 MR. KOHN: .Okay. Thank you. 7 MR. ROBINSON: You're welcome. l 8 MR. KOEN: And;I--you know, I. don't' anticipate ! 9 ~ ' I'll have much to say. ,I'll just sit back and listen. 10 MR. ROBINS.ON: Okay. 11 MR. KOHN: But if I do,'you'll hear me chime up. ! 12 MR. ROBINSON: Fine. 13 l l Mr. Mosbaugh, do you have=any objections to being ! 14 sworn to your testimony here? ! 15 MR. MOSBAUGH: No, not at all. 16 [ Witness is duly sworn by Mr. Robinson.] 17 1 01. KOHN: Hello? s 18' MR. ROBINSON: Can you hear us all.right, Mr. 19 Kohn? I l 20 MR. KOHN: Excuse me? l l 21 MR. ROBINSON: Can you hear us all right? 22 MR. KOHN: Yeah, I can hear you. Every once in a 23 while it kind of goes blank. I don't know if that's just n: 24 one's talking. 25 MR. ROBINSON: I just' swore Allen Mosbaugh to his i i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters )' 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 ; Washington, D.C. 20006 i (202) 293-3950-l I
l 5 l 1 testimony. .Did you hear any of that? 2 MR..KOHN: No. 3 MR. ROBINSON: I hope we don't have technical . ! l 4 problems here.- I 5 .The purpose of the interview today,~Mr. Mosbaugh, ) 6 as I've discussed briefly with you prior to going on the ) r
- 7. record is to--is to supplement.the information that you've ;
l already provided in the investigation of allegations of 8 l 9 ' false statements to the NRC by employees of Georgia Power j t 10 Company regarding the emergency diesel generator. testing. f 11 And I'll be--the questions may-not seem to be contiguous in 12 nature because they are regarding specific areas of the I 13 evidence already collected in this--in this matter. .And I- . 14 vill--I'll, as best I can, point you to the areas being j 15 talked about.
'I 16 -c- '
l 17 ALLEN MOSBAUGH l 18 Having Been First Duly Sworn, was Examined and' 19 Testified as Follows: 20 EXAMINATION' 21 BY MR. ROBINSON: ! 22 Q Just as a starting point, with respect to the. oral
-23 presentation that was~made to the NRC on April 9th, 1990, 24 what was your involvement in either the preparation or the I 25 review or the participation in'that oral' presentation?
ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612-K' Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
i 1 6 1 A I had no activity. I did nothing. I was not 2 involved in the preparation of that presentation. In fhet,
-3 I don't believe I even knew it was goingLto occur. So I had- -
t 4 no involvement in the preparation of that or in the 5 materials. I had not involvement in the presentation , 6. itself. I--it occurred in Atlanta in the NRC offices, and I l- 7 did not go to Atlanta, and, like I'said, I'did not even know 8 it was going to occur. So I had no involvement in the 9 presentation. The first'I knew that it had occurred was1 10 when Mr. Bockhold -- I believe it was on the next~ day, on-11 ' April the loth -- had a staff meeting'and described how he 12 had made a presentation in. Atlanta. And he passed out--I 13 believe he passed out transparencies.of what he had 14 presented, and he also passed out the April 9th letter that is was given to the NRC in a response to the Confirmation of 16 Action-- 17 Q I'll show you a-- 18 A --that he had--that Georgia Power had given the 19 NRC the day before. That was on the 9th. I would--I would 20 want to add about that that I believe that it is a little 21 unusual that I was not involved in the preparation of that 22 material. That was unusual-- 23 Q Was the-- 24 A --the reason being was that given--if you recall 25 my responsibilities at'that t ime ', I was the assistant ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W. Suite 300 Washington, 0.0. 20006 (202) 293-3950
p 7 l' general manager of plant support. .And so the technical 2 support division, which had the site licensing ' 3 l i responsibilities, was under me. .And.they routinely prepared: 4- the 200 correspondence'er as a minimal would prepare drafts
- 5- of'all NRC~ correspondence. I was the vice_ chairman on the 6
~
plant review. board. And the plant' review board would review 7 all NRC correspondence and would review that--it was our--it . 8 was a stated--it was,-let me say, an unofficial requirement 9 of the PRB to review all NRC correspondence and do that i. 10 prior to it' going out so we'could get a multidisipline. 11 review of that, and that was routinely done. 12 In this case, I'll state that the Aprilj9th 13 presentation and the letter were not' reviewed by the PRB, 14 i l-you know, prior to it going out or being signed. The groups - 15 that had responsibility for the testing of'the diesels and - l 16
- they reported to me and they were being supplemented by a 17 few people from corporate that'we had asked for, such as Ken 18 Burr.
But all the engineering staff, the diesel system l 19 engineer, they reported to me. So, you know, the people 20 that--the special tests that were being developed were under ; 21 my purview. So all these activities were really under my l 22 responsibility, you know, the-correspondence with the NRC, 23 the testing. Also, I was participating in the critique.of l 24 the site area emergency. And I think by that time Mr. I 25 Bockhold had made all the managers members of the critique ! ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters , 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 i j (202) 293-3950 '
l I i a L I 8 l l l 1 team. I.think the original critique team had-been disbanded' :
- i. 2 by the 9th of April and the managers were all put on the }
3 ' critique' team. And I was one of those managers, so I guess i
~l 1
- 4 at that point I was.on the critique team. 'So, really, I l 5 think the line responsibility for almost everything l l 6 . associated.with that presentation and that follow-up-letter i i
7 i came up through me. 'And for mylnot to have'been involved in. .l 8 it was unusual; was quite. unusual. So I11 add those -- 9 that facts.in there,.too. 1 J 10 Q So the first time-- l 11 MR KOHN: Oh, excuse me. If I can1just' i 12 interrupt. A1, if you could hit your--every once in a while-l 13 'you fade out. If you could'just-hit that machine.. 14 (Witness complies.] l 15 TE2 WITNESS: ! I think the machine has--must have a 46 ' threshold mike or something, Steve. 17 MR. KOHN: Okay. t 18 THE WITNESS:
~
I'll just try.to talk louder. l 19 o MR. KOHN: Yeah. If you can just. keep the, voice 20 up 'cause you guys--every once in a while you fade down. So 21 if you can keep the voices up a little, that'll be 22 appreciated. ! 23 .THE WITNESS: :Okay. 24 MR. KOHN ' Thanks. I 25 BY MR. ROBINSON: ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. . Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N W.. Suite 300 Washington, I ..-20006 (202) le; :950
I 9 l 1 1 Q And I'll show you a copy of the letter to the NRC 2 dated April 9th,'1990, signed by Mr. Hairston, which was p 3 published on the same day as the oral. presentation'. Does: . 4 that appear to be an accurate. copy of that letter? l 5 A Yes. L $ 6 Q And your statementLwas, I believe,.that you never j 7 saw that letter or any.of the presentation materials until' 8 the--at leastfthe day after the letter was. published.and the ' 9 presentation was made, when Mr. Bockhold had a staff 10 meeting? 11 -A Yeah. That's correct. -On April.the 10th was the j 12 first time I'saw this and the--and the transparency ! l 13 information. ; 14 Q Between April 10th and April 19th,'when'the 15 Licensee Event Report regarding the site area emergency was 16 due, did you'at any point in time ask Paul Kochery to l 17 i provide you with a listing of' diesel starts from the control ! 18 room logs or the diesel logs or anywhere? 19 A After I saw this letter, a couple of paragraphs in 20 it seemed to me to possibly be incorrect. Juni I began 21 investigating to try to determine if those paragraphs were , 22 incorrect. One of those paragraphs had to do with some 23 statements about air quality and another paragraph had to de 24 with statements about diesel starts, so in that period 25 l between the loth and the 19th I did start to--at first--wha: . 1 l L ; ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. !. I Court Reporters l 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 'l i Washington, D.C. 20006 i } j (202) 293-3950 ' i
10 1 I did first was the air quality. And then after that I : started to try to gather what information there was about 2 3 the diesel starts. I believe toward the end of that period 4 I did go to Mr. Kochery and I asked him--well, I indicated 5 to him the sections in the COA letter that.I thought were 6 inaccurate and that I was seeking some information and what ; 7 he--and asked him what he had. And he said.that he had a 8 list of--a tabulation of some diesel starts. Jux! I asked ' 9 him for that, and I believe--I'm not sure if he had prepared 10 it or'if Kenny' Stokes had prepared it, but he gave me that-
~
11 list. And I don't know--I don't know if that list was ' 12 complete 'cause I didn't at that time bounce it off of 13 the--of a source document. Okay. This was a list written 14 on white paper and it had some dates and it'had'a notation ' 15 about-diesel start and a start attempt or whatever and maybe ' 16 a few comments about what had happened. . 17 Q Was this a handwritten list or-- 18 A Yeah, this was handwritten-- 19 Q --a typed? 20 A This was a handwritten list. And so he gave 21 me--he gave me that list. I. looked at it in his office. 22 This conversation between myself and Kochery occurred in his
. 23 office, and he gave me a copy of that or I made a copy from 24 his copy. I can't recall which. And--
25 Q I'm going to-- ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters i 1612 K Street, N.W., suite 300 l -Washington, D.C. 20006. j (202) 293-3950 (. , ,_ ~. -
11 , , 1 A --it was not--it was not fully up to-date. Okay. 2 o 3 A It didn't run through the date that I was talking. 4 to him.. It included information from March and'a little bit , 5 of information into April. ] 6 Q It did have some information into' April? ' 7 A Yeah. , i 7 8 Q I'm going to be--I'm going to show you a 9 typewritten document, and it's identified.for the record'in , 10 the upper right-hand corners with-the numbers 05-180-90. ! . 11 And I recognize thac_the-list you got from Mr. Kochery was 12~ handwritten, but I'll ask you if -- one,'if you have ever 13 seen this typewritten list and, two, if this appears to you 14 4 to be a typewritten version of what'Mr.-Kochery gave you? j 15 A I think I've seen this. I think1I may have seen 16 this in some--in an exhibit maybe Georgia Power produced at d-
- 17 some point But this is definitely not the' list from-j 1B Kochery. Okay. This is not that list at all. This is very t
1 19 a 1 detailed. And this--the list that I got from Kochery was 1 20 just a listing of starts, start by start, one line for each 21 start. Okay. You know, this has for a particular day the-22 time started, when it was timed to the grid, when it was 23 loaded to 7600 kilowatts, when it was unloaded, you know. 24 _No, this is not the list. Okay. 25 Q Did Kochery tell you where he got the data for his I 4 ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. 3 Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington. C.C. 20006 ' (202) :%: 3950 ; 1 s
- - gy ,w,e
l 12 1- -list? 2 A Well; I--I'm--I believe that whatJI was told about 3 the list-was that either Kochery had written it up or Stokes . 41 had written it'up,for him. .And I'm notisure. 5 Q And when I say'where he got,'you're not sure 6 whether it came from. control. logs'or' diesel test' sheets or -- t- 7- - 8 A .It may have--I don't believe they got it from
- 9. logs. Now, I don't know that for sure.
But-I1believe what-
'10 they got it was'that they--they were' intimately? involved in 11 each of'these starts, so-I.think they.just'made it from 12 firsthand knowledge.
13 Q. And'what did you do with this: list?. 14 A - Well, . as soon as I saw the list--because most of 15 the information was from March,, you could :immediately'see 16 that the entries from March, around March the 22nd.and March - 17 the 23rd, were showing that the diesel had' tripped. 18 Q The-B diesel? 19 A The B diesel, you:know,, the Unit 1 B._ diesel.- You
~
20 know, so you could.see that it tripped, and there might have. 21 been a notation on there that it had tripped fromla
~2 2 particular sensor on high pressure or'high temperature or c
23 whatever. And so'it was immediately apparent to_me'that-24 there had been,; quote, problems:and failurestof the one B \ l 25 diesel since the event,_the site area emergency, on 3/20. t-
~.
ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W.,-Suite 300 Washington, D.C.'20006 (202)~ 293-3950 o o
13 1
- And that was in direct contradiction with the statements.
2 that I had read in theLConfirmation of Action letter, whichl 3 said there were no problems 1or failures. l 4 Q At,this point in time ^when you--when you obtained 3
- 5 this list.from Mr. Kochery, were you also involved in l 6 the--in the PRB approval for the upcoming LER?z 7 A' Yeah. I think this was- -
B i t MR. KOHN: If youLcan'just keep your voices'up. I l 9 MR. ROBINSON: Okay. l 10 THE WITNESS: . Yeah. I think this was about the i 11
- same time because this was like
- at the end of thatLinterval 12 you were referring to.- And this--
13 BY MR. ROBINSON: 1 1 14 Q 1 That interval.being.between April 10th and April 15 19th? 16 A Right. 9 And so this was like, maybe, 17th, 18th, 1 17 19th, you know, the last few days'there~. And so, yes,.at.
- 18 the same time that I saw this list was the same time ~that
! 19 the final drafts of the LER were going through.the PRB. And 1 j 20 there were several drafts.
; 21 Q' And when you~first realized that--I mean, was this i ; 22 the first time you realized that there-had been failures of 2
23 or problems with the B machine after March 20th?' 24 A I think so. I think this'is the first time that 25 I--I guess it was the first time that I knew that something i l i 1 ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters
- 1612 K Street, NW., Suite 300
; Washington. 1 20006 (202) ;- 3950'
.i s
(
- i L 1
\. 14- { I had been said about the no problems or failures ~and that I
. . I 2 had firsthand knowledge.or data or whatever,: evidence that i
i 3 there were problems or failures, you,know, contrary to the l L
-4 words that are in the 4/9. letter.
j 5 Q And when you realized this,lwhat did you'do? i 6 A Well, the first thing I--the first thing.I did was l I.tried to look at'it and:say, well, is it possible.that the-t 7 B words still'could be true'in'the 4/9.let!ter despite this 9 information. Okay.' And'so I figured I needed to look into: ' L l-10- it a little further,"you know, to make-sure that.there. 11- wasn'ti some way I was misinterpretiing and jumping to a 12 conclusion. 'so--and so I was. suspicious that -it: was l 13 incorrect. I didn*t have absolute proof positive that Lit= l 14 -was, and I continued to ask questions. I think the next 15 thing that I can remember after that'was that we were on the 16 phone, that after that I was on the phone with John 17 Aufdenkampe and Jack Stringfellow on-the 19th of April. : 18 Q- On April 19th? ! 19 A Yeah. i
- 20 Q And this is the conversation'that'is on NRC Tape 21 Number 57, which is dated--this tape ~was dated April 19th, 22 1990,.when received fron Mr. Mosbaugh.and~ subsequently 1
23 nur.bered by the NRC.as' Tape Number.57. For purposes of
- 24. correlating this to the review of evidence by NRC 25 enforcement and OGC and NRR, thir tape was also referredLto !
')
ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
)
Court Reporters 1' 1612-K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006-(202) 293-3950 H
~
15 1 as Exhibit Number 36. What took place on your phone call'with Mr. 2 s 3' Stringfellow? Who-all was on it? ' 4 A well, I was--I was in John.Aufdenkampe's office, 5 and he was--he was calling--I ha'd entered his office and he.
- 6 was calling Jack Stringfellow, and he and Jack wereftrying i
i 7 - to resolve certain:last-minute comments and corrections on 8 the LER, and they were--there was a-lot of changing of.the 9 wording being discussed. And -- so in our conversation we 10 got around to talking about--talking.about.the comments and 11 the statement about the starts of:the diesels. - And I think 12 John. started that conversation off and explained to. Jack. j: .13 Stringfellow that he was having--he was having trouble with 3 14 that. And so then a conversation pursued about 15 the--discussing the kind of trouble that John Aufdenkampe ', 16 was-having with that, and John ends up, you know, saying j 17 with me present -- and then I chimed in about some of the i 18 trips and problems that I knew about. And-John ends up
)
19 saying that we think this is basically a' material false. 20 statement. L - i s !
- 21 Q And for the record to--in order to help refresh i
22 your memory regarding this tape, I've provided a transcript 23 of Tape Number 57, or Exhibit 36 as I--and this is'a 24 transcript that you and I have been over in which you ,; 25 identified the voices and the names of callers and I--you ! i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 l
, , . . _ y e ._ _,g -. , . -.-r-, c= y w
l
~16 1
know, you can'take a minute to refresh your memory regarding 2 what went on there. ' 1 l 3 A Yeah. Well, it looksLlike the section I.was just . j 4 describing starts on page 90. And, you know,' John says- ; 5 here--the'next page, root cause: no comment. The next page l 6 on the 20 starts--and I clearly. remember Stringfellow's~ ! 7 reaction there, you-know, and the'_way he said it: -yeah, 8 yeah, yeah. You know, he was--he:was really' excited. i 9 Q About that issue? 10 A About'that' issue. .Okay. And' John said, I'm
.- 11 struggling with that,.you know. And Stringfellow says, you?
12 struggle with that one, yeah. He says,lI'm trying to~ verify.
- 13 that still. And that calmed Stringfellow.down a little bit.
14 And then John'says, we think that's basically a material 15 false statement. And then Stringfellow says,'really. 16 Right at this point do you recall how John was Q i i 17 trying to get that verified? 18 A Yeah. l John had--John had Rick Odom and then for i 19 Rick Odom was Tom Webb. And Tom Webb was out--I believe at 20 that time I think he was out-in the control room. -And I 21 think there's some discussions in some of this transcript ! 22 where we have an interruption of'this stringfellow 23 i conversation and John calls Odom and Odom indicates that at ; 24 that very moment Webb'is out, trying to verify this from the 25 control room logs. And so Webb's out, trying to-look at the ANN RILEY E ASSOCIATES, LTD. I Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, 2.C. 20006 (202)'293-3950 i
- . ., ,,-..e . , ,, L, - - . - . . -,
1 17 1
~ actual control room logs to,. you know, verify that this 2" 'i sri't a material false statement. '
3 Q' About what. time'of. day do you recall this first 4- conversation 1taking place? 5 A Now, I recall'it being, you know, somewhere around 6 noontime. And I can't remember if itj you know, would have 7 been right before noon or right after noon for sure, but it. B was around noontime or early afternoon. 9 'Q And'when Mr. Aufdenkampe told Mr. Stringfellow 10 that he thought it was basically a material false statement, 11 how did--how did Mr. Stringfellow: respond? 12 'A Well, John'said we. .'And he was speaking,for me 13 and him because we"had had a few conversations, I think, 14 where we had,'you'know, mentioned about.the various trips 15 that.we both knew about. And, yeah, Stringfellow,.again, 16 you know: - really. You know, I mean, again,. very excited, 17 intently interested. 18- Q What did Stringfellow do with'this information? 19 A Well, what he did is--and, you know, I wasn't in 20 Birmingham where Jack stringfellow was, but-- 21 Q What did he say he was going to do? 22 A From the--from the course of the conversation and 23 the events and the calls.that followed, I think it is clear 24 what he did do with it. He took this information to his 25 boss, Bill Shipman. ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 L... . . . . .. .
I 1-4 ~
- 18 1 Q And what makes you say that?
s 2 A Well, Shipman called me back shortly after this t 3 1 and said something about, well, you were talking'to Jack ! 4 l Stringfellow; you and John, I guess, were talking to Jack 5 Stringfellow about--this. i So,- yeah, Shipman related back to 6 1 me that he was knowledgeable:about our previous conversation j 7 with Stringfellow. 1 i 8 Q And from that conversation with-Shipman was there
- i. 9 a definite indication to you that Shipman was' aware that )
10 there were failures or problems after March 20th? E 11 A ; i
.Well, yeah. Let me--let'me step back to--and add 12 some additional information on the previous question--
]. 13 Q okay. 14 A
--because I see in the transcript-here it says, 15 i
well, as soon we get off the pnone, I'm going to run back in i , 16 there and tell him what you told me. And he's talking about 17 Bill Shipman. And I'm o,n page 91. So yeah, there's 18 indication in here that he was--you know, that he's saying i 19 r he's going to discuss this with Shipman. And then, of' i 20 course, in the follow-up call that I.got from' Shipman, he ! 21 i- indicates, well, you were just talking to Jack Stringfellow. j- 22 p Now, for your next question,. indications that 23 shipman knew, yeah, the indications that Shipman knew are 24 extremely clear. And, you know, maybe if I could refresh my j, 25 memory with Mr. Shipman's-- i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington. : C. 20006 y (2 02 -) 255-3950
. - . i_ -
.._-. m _ . . . . .. - .. _ _
E l' l 19 .j 1 Q Certainly.
- . 2 A. --call I can refer to specific pages'of things 3 -that were
- said on that call, because what happened is after 4 the call completed with Mr. Stringfellow--well,'let me a'dd !
5 J another piece of information because there. were"actually two I 1" 6 segments to the. call with Mr. Stringfellow.'.Onei-andiin.the 7- middle they were interrupted by..a call'that-I described,.to-8 Odom. Okay. In the second-- . 9 Q Where Mr. Aufdenkampe called-- !: 10, A \
--where we come back--yeah, Aufdenkampe~ calls Odom- -
j l- 11 ; and he talks to Odom and'when we find out that Webb is~'in i 12 the control room, .trying to verify from logs and so forth. l
-{
- 13. Then we get back on the phone. We-hang up.with Odom and we 14 get back on the phone with Stringfellow. And-Stringfellow's 15 had a--had an opportunity in this period ofitime to digest 16 what he's just heard. And so that's the first thing he-17 says. He says, oh, it just dawned' on me whati Al was saying 18 a minute ago. This is on page 96. In other~words, if we-l 19 say and no failures or problems have occurred in'any of 20 these starts, you're saying that's not true. Okay. -And-
.21 then John says, yes, I'm saying that's not true. And then I 22 remember so clearly what-Stringfellow says. He says, oh, J 23 wonderful, you-know, is the way he responded. And then' 24 Aufdenkampe says--and right here it is. Here's the 25 recognition clearly from both Aufdenkampe and Stringfellow I i
ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 4 i (202) 293-3950 , l i i
. . - - _ . - - - _ - . . -..-. ..-. .- .. . =~.a.-
l J l 20 l 1 that now they.know that they had previously made a false ! 2 statement-to the NRC 'cause Aufdenkampe says, which is' 3 telling you--it's telling you something'else, I imagine, ! 4 because you know we--this has been written to-the NRC-once i 5 already. And~he's referring to the'4/9 correspondence. And-6 -then Stringfellow, he knows the same' thing, too. He.said,- 7 yes, I know; that's exactly what I was' thinking. 8- Q For purposes of-assisting in the record,. fro'm now-1 9 on, if you could, please,' when you are quoting from the tape 10 or from the transcript, if you could just indicate that's a i 11 quote. 12 A . Yeah. That's a quote that I just said,'and that's 13 page 96, and that's about line 7 through 18. 14 Q Okay, 15 A So--you know, so both John and Jack Stringfellow i 1 16 really acknowledged at this point that they know that what .; 17 was said.to the NRC before, you know, was false. Okay.
- i 18 So--and with that I think that's pretty much the end of. I 19 that--of that conversation.
20 Q With Stringfellow? 21 A With Stringfellow. t And then about the next thing ' 22 that happens--and'now I'm'back where I left off--was I got 23 beeped by Bill Shipman, and so I called Bill Shipman back k 24 from my office.. And now I've left John Aufdenkampe's-25 office, and I'm in my office. And let me briefly look at i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 ! Washington, D.C. 20006 : (202) 293-3950 1
e 21-
~l~ that section. Yeah. Okay.
r So I called. Bill Shipman back. 4 2 And the reason why I'm calling Bill Shipman and I' bell' eve.
- - 'l
. 3' . the reason why' Bill Shipman called me is I.think I was the .
4 . duty--the duty supervisor, duty manager that week. JAnd Bill 5 ' Shipman was frequently my counterpart. He'was the corporate 6 duty person. And the duty person, you know,.
- . 7 reports--there's a chain of--
i B MR .~ . KOHN : A1,' if you could talk up a little, i 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah. ;There's a' formal chain of. 10 t reporting for the duty people'from the'd'uty person.on' site l 11_. to the duty person on--in corporate, which I think at'this l
- 12
. time was Bill Shipman and then from Bill. Shipman down to the.
- 13 executives, okay, was the.way that worked. And there wasLa 14 very' formal communication chain that was utilized for that.
t { 15 And so Shipman' called me and again there with this' air of i 16 excitement. You know, the first thing Shipman says.te me is ! 17 help, help. 4 And so he starts talking to me-and he says that
- 18 he's trying to get Mr. Hairston's questions answered. And in t, 19 that's just on page 100 here at line 23. Shipman
- here we.
i
- 20
.i are; we're trying to get all this Hairston questions . j 21 answered. Okay? So he's acting for Mr. Hairston.- And so . i j j 22 i-he starts asking me if I could help him on two different ; 23 ; things. And I indicate that I can. And the second thing-24 . i that he wants me to work on for him is the diesel start'.- l { 25 BY MR. ROBINSON: l 1 l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street., N.W., Suite 300 j Washington, 0.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 '
! i
. , . - - - ., , ~ ,. . . . ~.--.i...-. .
22 1- O The first thing being what the plant equipment . operator did when_he first came upon-- 2 3 A When.he first entered the room,-which really l 4 wasn't related--isn't related here to the diesel start 5 numbers and so forth.
- 6 Q Okay. Regarding the second issue that Mr. Shipman 4
7 .needed your help on? I 8 A Yeah. And page 104, line 8, Bill Shipman: okay, . 9 and the other question we've been trying to get an answer to 1 l- 10 is to~ reassure George that we had more than 20_ valid starts 11 since, you'know, March 20th, like we say in.the LER. i 12 Q And when he refers to George, who would he be 13 referring to? 14 A He's referring George Hairston because that's who 4 15 he said right in the very beginning he was'trying to get , 16 George Hairston's questions answered. So we start talking { 17 about that and, you know, the very first thing here is
, 18 that--the very first thing Shipman says--I tell.him there 19 were failures. Okay? And then Shipman-says on page 104, 20 line 17, and I quote: yeah, the problem we got, Allen, is
- 21 the' data that's in the LER is what George--and now here he 22 means George Bockhold--wrote and took and told to the --
j 23 Ebnetter last Monday in Atlanta. 24 Q And who is Ebnetter? 25 A Ebnetter is the director of Region II, NRC. And' ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
23 1 Ebnetter is the one that:this formal presentation for 2 restart was made to. And, you know, he's referring to'the 3, 4/9/90~ presentation that George.Bockhold made~and then 4' followed up with the writte' ' letter. = And, you know,- I 5- respond to him, well, if anybody said'there weren't-6 failures, that's just not true. And so with that, you'know, 7 Bill Shipman recognizes that they mader a false' statement on-8 4/9. And then--and I give him the specific dates and times 9 of these trips that I had found out.about from that Kochery-10 list.- And those were the ones from April 22nd and 23rd, 11 those problems and trips. 12 Q March. March 22nd and--
'13 A I'm sorry. March 22nd and' March 23rd.
14 Q Right. 15 A Yeah, on the~B diesel. And then~the next thing 16 that I sensed from Shipman is that -- you know, he--the
~
17 first thing he said to me, well, is--well, there's~a. problem 18 here Alleni there's a problem because we already told the 19 NRC this once. And the next thing I sense is that he's 20 trying to figure out how to work around this problem by 21 rewording,1by changing the wording. i And on page 105, you 22 know, Bill Shipman says--line 18: see, because I could--we 23 could solve the probl'em that's created by.that information j- 24, by saying no valid failures. Well, you know, right here i 25 a he's just acknowledged that there was a problem, that the
' ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters 1612 K Street. N.W., Suite 300 Washington. 0.0. 20006 (2021 293-3950 r . b--J'?
24 1 -information we told him was false, and I told him that if 2 .anybody said that that wasn't true. And now he's figur'ing 3 out a way that if we said no valid failures he~could make it- . 4 -true or, you know,-he's-trying to figure how we could--how
.5 they could interpret or change the wording-or whatever to 6 make true what they had falsely said before. And, you--know, 7 it's kind of like the beginning of-a cover-up,,you know, 8 figure out how we can make this sound like.something else 9' other than-what it was. And'so I think I--you know,EI'tell him about a second trip at~that time.
10 And then the:next. r 11 thing Bill Shipman says, which, you know, indicates that he 12 knew it was wrong--you know, he says on page 106, line 5: 13' how the world did this get.through the PRB. Okay? 14 Q- And how did'it, to your knowledge, get through the 1 15 PRB? L 16 A Well, when this LER was first drafted, it didn't l 17 have any words in it about any number ofl times that the- 1 18 diesel had been successfully--that the diesel had been i 19 started without trips or failures. It'didn't have anything. 20 And then I think it was on about the--April the 18th, there
~
21 was--there was a meeting and there was a comment made in-22 that meeting that we needed to put some specific-- 23 Q. PRB meeting?' 24- A. Yeah, in a PRB meeting. There.was comment that-
-25 was.that we needed to put'some specific number of times that I
i l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300. ; washington, D.C.-20006 4 (202) 293-3950 J
. _ - . .. - _ _ _ _ _ . -. ~
25 1-it was. started in that LER 'cause in the beginning it didn't p 2 have any. - 3 Q Do you recall who.made that comment or who ' l . 4 -suggested that? 5
- A' I--yeah. I think it was Lackey. - ILthink it was *
- 6 Mike Lackey. And so it was--it was determined then that
- 7 Aufdenkampe's group would figure out what an appropriate e
8 number was. Okay. And what. happened'was that.Aufdenkampe i j 9 )
'then, I guess, got1with Odom and Webb and they made a--made7 ;
i 10 an' addition to it. 1And they took the April 9th, letter,. s 11 which said.there had been 18 and 19 starts,.and they.added 12 to that information the number of starts that they knew or 3? i they thought had happened between April.the 9th and April 14 the 19th. And they thought that was two starts. ' Now,.it 15 turns out that also is incorrect, but that was'what they j 16 thought. i They thought there had been two more starts since i 17 then. L ( 18 Q And at this point in time are you aware that there 19 had been any effort on the'part of Webb or Odom or Stokes or
. 20 anyone to verify a control log number of starts? Because I i 4
} 21 i know that on the phone calls of April 19th Webb is actually.
- 22 out there.
- i. Was this the first time that Webb-had tried to I
- . 23 do any verification like that-- '
I 24 A This-- 25 Q --to your knowledge? ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. ! ' Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300
' Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 i
-C '- -- , , .,,.-g.,_-c y. -, u- - . .e.g g-,_.p --W-, y #-we-e q -r y. . - -,w , c .w,-,-, y, , -- ,
26 1 A Yeah. As far as I know, I believe that effort was 2 on the 19th,.as far as I know. 3 Q So'the addition of the two starts was'just 4 a--maybe a feeling that they've had at least.two starts 5 between-- 6 A Now, maybe-- l 7 Q --the 9th and the 19th? 8 A I don't know. Yeah. I don' t -)uume why that--why. [ i
-9 they found out that there were two because there were--when 10 you get the actual logs, in reality, you find out there were 11 six. Okay? But, you know,.they thought there were two.
12 Okay. And they expressed'that knowledge andLthey stated ! 13 that-and so they added two to the 18. l 14 l Q And they were--I think they used'the terminology 15 greater than-- 16 A Yeah. 17 Q --20 starts in the-- i 18 A More than 20 each, yeah, or something like that. 19 So they added the two and so they came.up with 20. And so 20 for the PRB review, then, the next day, which I think-21 happened on the 19th in the morning--I think it was the , 22 19th. They added--they had added that and come up with the j 23 20. Okay. And so then I arrived late to the PRB meeting i 24 where they had the new verbiage in the LER and they L 25 were--when I entered the room-- i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters i 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300-Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 o
,w - - e- e,,e,
l 27 ' l, 1-
- . MR . KOHN: = Allen, if you could just talk up a 2 little more. '
l I
.3'
- THE WITNESS
- .Okay. :When'I1 entered'the room, they' ,
were aboutl ready to take the vote:on it. 4 And since'I~hadn't. j- 5' ! seenLit or participated in the discussion,: I abstained'from' ' U 6 'that vote. i } :7- BY MR. ROBINSON:
}
8 Q So this would have been on the morning of.the- i J 4 9- 19th?: ? 10' A l I-think--youLknow,'.I'm having trouble remembering . 11:
- if it wasLlike the eighth--the morning;of~the.18th~orfl9th,-
1 i l~ 12 :i but it seems like it was the-19th. 13 Q Did there come a' point'in--obviously from the-4 14 i phone call that came from Mr. Stringfellow and Mr. Shipman l- 15 there and -- like you say, in the noon time frame on the i - 16 19th, there was an--there was an effort to verify whether
- 17 there were greater than 20 starts or~not?
4 18 A Yes, yes. j 19 Q And do you remember whether-the request came from i. t 20 p corporate to do that verification early:on the 19th or late
- j. 21 on the 18th or is that'asking too much to--for you to l 22 recall? I c 23 A l'
Yeah, I--no, I can't remember when it came. And i i- 24 I'm really not sure if the initiation was from corporate or 25 from site. I know that at some point there.was an i i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. 4 Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 5'
1 i 28 i
-1 initiation to do that from corporate. Okay.
But I can't ! 4 2 remember those' particulars. 5 r i 3 Q You were--you --' pick up.where you were, I guess, l
\
4 with--I guess with' Shipman's phone. call. j
~
5 A -Yeah. I guess'in.the middle--you know, in the ; middle of that phone call with shipman, when we
~
6 t i 7 . started--when-he started about'how the'world'did.this get 1 8 through the PRB, at that point I realized:that Stringfellow'
'f i 9:
was also on that call. 'And that wasn't unusual because of. t 10 the-way the speaker phones were used. You really don't~know 11 who is on the call and - 'unless=they speak. They may 3 4 i 12 well--others may well have been present"in the room. So, . 13 you know, I really can't even say who-allLwas on this calli . i 14 'cause it was a speaker' phone call. And in the middle'of it-5 15 Shipman spoke up--or I'm sorry, Stringfellowispoke up when I i 16 thought I was talking.to just Shipman. So anyway--so, you 17 know, then as we talked over there. things,--you:know,- 18- Shipman, you know, further indicated-to me that he knew that 19 this was incorrect. At some point he makes theLstatementi i 20 that well, it just sound likes this whole statement needs to L l 21 be st'ricken. And that's kind of a quote from page 107 on j- 22 line 20. And he asked me, well, did I have any better 4 23 ~ information. .And I said,ino,-this is--you.know, this.is the' 24 best that I have; I don't know that I, you know, can get-f 25 anything else'and-- h L ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. L Court Reporters i 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006. (202) 293-3950 i 1:
l 29 11 Q And the information that you had at that. time'was 2 ' 1still that-handwritten, list that had been.provided to.you by . 3 Kochery? 4 A. 'Yes, yeah. 5 Q' -Which.was either prepared by Kochery or Stokes-- 6 A Right.
~ 7: Q --to your knowledge?
'8 ~ A- Right. And-the other thing t' hat I'll add about,
'9 quote, my information is that I had been talking to people, 10-Aufdenkampetand Stringfellow and so forth, and,'you know, 11 nobody challenged the information either. You know, we 12-didn't have anybody saying, oh, no, that's notitrue,: you 13 know, when we said this is a false statement. So,! yeah,-I >
14 had a set of information~that led me to believe that the 15 statements were false and yet in the course of the rest of
-16 my conversations nobody was presenting any information, you .
17 know, to the contrary either. 1B Q So that-- 19 A So that's my information, that I don't have any 20 better information than this when I said that to Bill i 21 shipman. 22 Q To the_best of your recollection today,:when was 23 the ending date of the starts on that list that you had in t 24 front of you? I think you said earlier that it would--may 25 have been sometime up into April-- ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washingten. : O. 20006 (202) ; i-3950
30 1- A Well, I can-- 2 1Q Do you think it was at least through April 9th? 3 .Do you recall that? 4 A .Well, I--Bill Shipman made. reference in the course 5
.of.the conversation, of this conversation'we're-talking 6 about it. He made reference to that list and whereas I 7
can't remember, you know,-how far that went up through, . 8 Shipman made a statement about~that. - 9 .Q Do ycu'think--I mean,.had you faxed this list to 10 Shipman? R11 A. I was under the impression from.his comment that 12 he must have seen or had this list. And let me see if I can 13 find.you what he said about it. And I don't know'if he 14 was--I don't know if he~was confused because he made a 15 statement to me, something about, you know, remember when'we 16-were talking about that the other day. .And to this day I 17 don't remember the conversation that he was talking about, 18 so I don't know if he had me confused with somebody else. 19 But let me see if I can find that section 'cause that may
. 20 shed some light.
-21 I believe Mr. Shipman said that could--something 22 about that Kochery list that went--only went through the 23- 13th. Yeah. There it is right.there.
24 Q Quote that comment. 25 A Yeah. Page 107. Okay. And this is me: speaking ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street,.N.W., Suite 300 Washington,-c.c. 20006 (202). 293-3950
'I
-31 4
l' at line 6: yeah, I--you know, what I.have here is there was-
~2
-a tabulation made of; diesel activities,:you know, earl'y Ton 3
by Kochery,Jand that's.where.I'm getting:this'information' 4' from. And what I'm referring.to--their information is.that 5 there were these trips and-problems. 'And I believe these--I 6 believe this tabulation was'provided to the Chaffee team. 7 Then Shipman says,.well, I think people 1have'been reviesing-8 the diesel generator log, but'what's--would-only as we 9 talked th'e other day that--and this is;thatfother day 10 conversation that I can't remember:-- that,only'went through 11 the-13th.D okay. And that-has to be-the 13th of April.
'12 okay. So--but'I don't remember him talking to.me about 13 this.
So maybe-he.was--thought he was talking to--maybe.he-14 talked to somebody,.but I don't think it was me. But<-- so, 15 you know, trying to answer your question, that's as.much as 16 I-remember about a date that-that. list, you know, went to. 17 And you know-- 18 Q And did--you didn't make any comment back'to him 19 on the fact that your list, the list that you had in front 20 of you, just went through the 13th, then; right? ' 21 A oh, yeah, I do. Yeah -- I say yeah. This data 22 picks up--this data picks up on the 13th. .I do not know 23 what-- 24 Q There is a' list--the two documents,. typewritten 25 documents that I showed you this morning which you said'were ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Rep rters 1612 K Street. NW., Suite 300 Washington : O. 20006 (202) ;-- i950 ,.2 . . . : ' ____._.___.i__.._____.___
32 l' definitely not-a typewritten version-of the Kochery_ list? 2 A Excuse me. . Two documents? 3 Q Well, it's one document. I'm sorry. 4' A lOkay. 5 .Q
.The one--the one document.that.I identified with 6 the IIT code number. That document started on March the'-
7 12th or March the 13th with counts. It'only went.through , 8
. March 22nd or March'23rd on both diesels.- You're thinking:
9 that the list you had>in-- 10 A- Oh, yeah. Here. Let me--yeah. LY eah, you're:
'11 right.
You--you-just--yeah. :See,; Shipman says that-only; 12 went through the 13th. Okay?. Now, I think:he'must mean the ~ 13 13th of April. 14 Q Logically that--when he's'talkingjabout going 15 through that date, you'would--you would think'th'at -- 16 A Yeah. 17 Q -- because if itsjust went through the 13th of 18 March, those -- that list would not be useful tolyou? 19 A Yeah, yeah. And then my--I'think my comment here. 20 is this data picks up on the 13th.- And I think--I think-21 what I mean there--and I was trying--I was having trouble 22 understanding what I--what I meant withithat because I thinkL 23 what'I mean11s, like you said,"that that list p'cked i up oni 24 March the.13th, the Kochery list. 25 Q But you-- ANN RILEY & ASSOCi'.TES, LTD.
' Court Repou '. ars 1612.K Street, N.W., Suite 300.
Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
l 1 l
.1 A But it is not this list.
2 It was not--and when you.say this list, it's not Q h 3
\
list that I identified as 05-180-907. ' I I j 4 A Absolutely. There's no' question whatsoever. This
'S is a detailed list and the list I had was not' detailed at L
i I 6 all. It'was just,line'per--one line entry per start.. , [ 7 Q Do you recall what you did-with this list? j B A I think I took it'over to Aufdenkampe's office. I_ ! 9 may have had'it with me, you know, during these t 10 conversations,.and I think I probably had;1t with me 11 when--in some of the.later conversations of the day maybe ! 12 over in Aufdenkampe's office. But:I cannot put my hands on .: 13 that document now. 14 0 l .Do you remember.if you gave.it back to'Kochery or i 15 if you kept it? 1 16 A I think I made a copy of it from Kochery's. ~And i t 17 so, no, I don't think I took his original and'gave his k 18 original back. q 19 Q Oh, I see. 'You think that when you went to 20 Kochery to get it-- 21 A Right. t 22 Q --you just took a copy of what he had? 23 A I don't know if--you know, either I went to the 24 xerox machine maybe and copied ~it or he had more'than one i 25 copy. .Okay? .But I didn't take his only copy. I ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 l \~
1 I L ! L 34 l 1 just--that's just not the way I normally did things. And in reality for the purposes of the usefulness 2 Q 3 of this list, it was primarily for purposes of pointing out j i 4 the failures or the problems on March 22nd and 23rd as i 5 opposed to perhaps being.a comprehensive list of starts 6 through April 19th? i ! 7 A Yeah, I don't think it went through the--I don't 8 believe it went through the 19th. . 9 Q But you think it went past April 9th? ' 10 A Well, I know that--I guess--see, I'm thinking 11 that--I think that when Shipman said here, you know, that i 12 list, you know -- and I had just had mentioned the Kochery , ( 13 i list -- and he said, as we talked the other day, okay, went 14 only through the 13th. Shipman, you know, may have been l 15 talking about a copy of this list that he had that went E 16 through the 13th. , 17 MR. ROBINSON: And I'll ask--I'll ask you, Mr. 18 Kohn--Mr. Kohn? 19 MR. KOEN: Yeah. 20 MR. ROBINSON: Are you aware of the list that 21 Allen and I are discussing right now? 22 MR. KOEN: I don't have a copy of it-in front of 23 me. 24 MR. ROBINSON: Do you think you have a copy of it 25 anywhere? ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters l 1612'K Street, N.W.,-Suite 300 L Washington. I . 20006 (202) ~S)-:950 l
l f r 35 : 1 MR..KOHN: I don't know. . Mike would know and t 2 ~ unfortunately he's not here.- ' l 3-MR. ROBINSON: Okay.' If you:have a' copy of'that . 4 list, I.would--I-would appreciate having a copy of it. S-l u MR. KOHN.._All'right. And can you identify for?me" ll 6 -once-again. ' i 7 MR. ROBINSON: It's--well, ittwould~be a i L i i 8 handwritten list of diesel starts that was'provided to Mr. ! 9 Mosbaugh by Mr. Kochery. I'can't--it's in a simpler, less 10 descriptive format than the document that I've identified i 11 here as 05-180-90. i 12 MR. KOHN: What's the date onJit?L 13 MR. ROBINSON: : l I don't know whether there's a date- = 14 on it or not.
-i 15 THE WITNESS:- Yeah. It's--I don't.believe it,was ,
16 a dated document. It's on plain paper, not letterhead of 17 some kind. It's handwritten. It's probably no more than , 18 two, at max three pages. And it just has handwritten line 19 entries and it has a date and a time.and then a brief 20 description of a diesel start and what happened. And 21 there's probably no more than 10 or 20 entries, you know, on 22 it. 23 MR. KOHN: Al, do you kl.at if you gave that to 24 Mike? 25 THE WITNESS: No. I don't think I--I don't have ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, L'IV . Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington.-D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 L -
i i l 36 1 ' it . And I don't think I--I don't think I ever had it in the
~
2 course of identifying documents in all these proceedings.
-3 MR. KOHN: The one place lit.may.be is in that wall 1
4 of documents that Troutman and Sanders has. .You'know, '
's there's thousands and thousands of pages there. And this 6 could easily.be there.
7 MR. ROBINSON: Okay. I don't know.t We'll-- i i 8 MR. KOHN: Larry, I-- l l 9 MR. ROBINSON: Yeah?- 10 MR. KOHN: 'Do you know about your document 11 production to us? 12 MR. ROBINSON: I--obviously I know that there's 13 been document production botu ways in the course of the 14 license amendment hearing. I'm not-- 15 MR. KOHN: They have a--I have not"seen it and, 16 A1, I think you have. L I know Mike went.down and locked at 17 it. But they've produced an entire--what they say is an 18 entire wall full of documents. And I don't see.any problem. i 19 Larry, if at some point if you wanted to look through those i I 20 documents. l l 21 MR. ROBINSON: Okay. ! [ 22 MR. KOHN: -You.know, this.might--you know, you may 23 not have the time or anything, but there's a lot of stuff ! 24 that they've produced that, .you know, you're open,to review. l
'25 MR. ROBINSON: All right. Thank you. If--yeah, l
f- l l- ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. i Court Repcrters: L 1612-K Street, !; W. ' Suite l ! 300-Washington. : 2. 20006 (202) :.. 5950 <
- ' (
3 .f l as m a
- i. -
, i i
37! 1 1 if I need to do that-- . 1 i i <
'?
2 l- MR.'KOHN: I. don't know whatiyou'want to do--
'I
-3 JMR. ROBINSON: If I;need t'o do that--
I z l- ; 4 MR. KOHN:
--but=it's,there!in a wall 11n Troutman" d i
~
'5' 'and Sanders office. 6
',(F. 6 MR. ROBINSON:- Okay.' 'If4IJneed.to do that,oI'llt -! l r- .7 Ldo_that. .; .s 1 ^ I ! 8; .BY MR.. ROBINSON: "
\
I
- , ,9' -Q ' Allen,-' continue;with your phone' call'to Mr o'
j 10' Shipman-- i i j } lif A' Okay. 2' , 12 Q --or yes-- ' 13 A - Yeah.~ Well --
+
i , ! 14 Q Mr.. Shipman called you'; am:I: correct?:
~
. I 15 A :} Yeah. He' beeped me initially. 1 i 16 Q Right. 17 A And so, you know, the--you'know,l kind of the1way-18 - it ended.up was,.you'know,:Mr. Shipman said,.'you know,.'it. 19 sounds like'this whole statement needs to be stricken. He 20 asked me if I had any better information. I said,--no, . this 21 is the best that I've got, but I'll continue to look. -And l 22 then we k!nd of ended up saying that--well, if you find i 23 anything call us back; I'll be in Mr. Hairston's' office, 24 And he'gave me Mr. Hairston's office telephone number. And i 25 { on page.108 on line 22 Mr. Shipman says: okay,. Jack and I I l l 1 ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. : Court Reporters , 1612.K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006
'l (202) 293-3950 4 -
- . . . . . - _ , . a. ..-~.w...;.,_
e ! ! j l l l 38 1 are going to leave here and walk down to Mr. Hairston's ! 2 office-- i 3 MR. KOHN: Can you hold for one moment? l 4 (Pause] l 5 MR. ROBINSON: Did somebody just walk in up
- 6 there--
l-l 7 MR. KOHN: Okay. Someone just knocked on my door. 8 Everything's okay. You can go back on the record. L 9 MR. ROBINSON: Okay. We have been on the record 10 the whole time. Did anybody walk into your office?' ! l 11 MR. KOHN: No one-heard anything. Someone just j 12 knocked on~the door. I went out-- l l 13 MR. ROBINSON: All right. ! 14 MR. KOHN: --and told them that I couldn't be
~
~
j 15 disturbed. ! i 1
.16 MR. ROBINSON: All right.
17 MR. KOHN: And nobody heard anything. 18 BY MR. ROBINSON: 1 19 Q Go ahead. l 20 A Okay. [ Reading) Going to leave here and walk down i 21 to Mr. Hairston's office to go over his comments and'what- ! 22 we've been able to do with those and to try to, you know,
.23 finish beating out wh'at he wants to do to this thing. So if 24 you want -- you know, if you find somebody and want to call-25 back, you might just call down there.
ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 , 1
,, .c. . . .. 1
.i
)
i 1 39 1 'Okay. And then he gives me Hairston's office number. 2 And then I--as duty manager, I.give him a brief 3 plant status on some' testing we're.doing. And that's the {- 4 end of the conversation.
- 5 MR. ROBINSON
- Okay. .It's:now 11:18 We're goingl j 6 to go_off the record for.a five-minute: break.
I We're now off. 1 7 the record. I ~! 8 (Off the record' 11:18 - 11:24'a.md' , 9 MR. ROBINSON: Okay. l It is~now 11:24 a.m. and
~
l .l we're back on the record. 10 11 BY MR. ROBINSON:
- t. l 1- j l 12 Q After--Mr. Mosbaugh, after you. terminated your 13 conversation with Mr. Shipman and Mr. Stringfellow, what did J
i 4 j 14 you do at that point? ! 15 A Well, I had told Mr. Shipman that what I had was 16 the best information there was. .I said, but I would--I 17 would verify if possible--and I would talk to Kochery. And 18 so after I got off the phona with Kochery-- 19 Q With Shipman. 1 20 A I'm sorry. With Shipman -- I went about to do the 21 things that he had asked me to do. 'And one of those things 22 was to get a conference call with the operators about what I 23 the operators first saw when they entered the diesel room, 24 and then I believe I went over and talked to Paul Kochery. 25 And I don't remember exactly what order that was in. i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, I . 20006 (202) ;'- 3950 m-- _. . . . _ . , , . _ . _
y I J a 40 i
- 1. -Q You mean the conference call with the. operators
! 2 and talking to Paul Kochery? .
~3 .A Yeah, yeah.
- 4, O I believe the tapes will. reflect that.the-5 conference call with.the operator was' arranged--we hear the
- 6 conference call with'the operator at the beginning of the i- 7 next tape. So we're still onLTape 57,'or Exhibit l36,. at j-j 8 this. point. '
9
- 'Did-you have a converaation with'Mr. Koc'ery'at h i
j 10 the end of Tape 57? 11 A Yeah. It looks like I.have conversation after I 12 get off the phone with Shipman-with_Kochery. . And it;looksi ! f 13 like--it-looks like Kenny Stokes was in Kochery's office'at 14 t
; the same time, so I think I walked'over-to Kochery's office.
15 And the statement that--on page 109 on'line 24,- I think this I 16 is the beginning of that conversation. -[ Reading) Do you--do 17 we have any idea how many valid' starts we've had? If : we ' re i~ 18 -going to speak in terms of valid failures', then we need to [ 19 speak in terms of valid starts.
. 20 Q And this is you speaking at this time?
f 21 A And this is my speaking. And'then I say--you 1 22 know, I'm talking about afterwards. This is on'page 110 at-23 line 6 and then 5--or line'4 and then.5. i [ Reading] .Since [ 24 3/20 do we have any idea because~you haven't gotten any of l 25 the paperwork from operations? 1 4 L i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. 1 Court Reporters l 1612 K Street, N.W.,~ Suite 300-Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950. g, e.
.)
,,,, e
& Y P'## I' '
-- = . .. , - . .
L L V 41 ! 1 And what. chat means is that -- the data sheets l 12 that filled out that go back to theidiesel-engineer.to'be 3 assessed,as to whetherfthey're valid or not. And I guesa, 4- you know, now--see, Shipman has brought ~up the point with me 5 that we could solve the: problem. created by.this information 6 by using--by sticking the word in there.avalid" now. .Okay? ' 7 Well, you know, just.to get the big' picture here,cthere-i l' 8 were--there.were virtually ~no valid tests and no. valid: 9 starts in'all of this period of time. JOkay. In fact, up> { h 10 until April the 19th I think there any have been--between 1 ) 11 3/20 and April 19th I think there may have been one valid: 12
-start on Diesel A and two valid starts:on Diesel B. Okay.
13 So nobody that knew anything about diesel terminology,: 14 okay--and obviously all these managers' knew this 15 terminology. Shipman knew it. He started to use those 16 words to solve the problem. Okay. So anybody'that knew l 17 anything about diesel terminology, you'know,-should.have. ! 18 Lknown that we weren't talking about-valid ~ starts. Okay. L i 19 . I And I think in the~ course of the" conversation with ! 20 Mr. Shipman I tell him that. I tell him, I--werhaven't
-21 assessed these for being valid or not. But yet they were.
22 trying to, you know, introduce those words in there now. l 23 because they knew they had made a previous false statement. 24 So, you know, based on that I start asking Kochery about
;25 that. And so I state up in that conversation, you know, on l i
ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N W., Suite 300 3-
-Washingt er. ; 2. 20006 (202) . 3950 L
i i
r 42 1- line-14, page 110: the problem is if we-speak in terms of 2 valid failures then we may have to say no valid fai' es'out
;3 of blank valid tests. You know, we:had"to use the 4-consistent, _you know, set of terminology. And so' basically 5 then I asked--I think I asked Kochery about'the data, about 6 the list. And on page 111, you know, I say, see, I got'this
-7 information from--Kochery says, see, I got these'-- -
-8 information from the logs. - So I_think we do have here the
~
9 indication'that that list'that Kochery.was telling me about
-10 it that he got it from the log. And I asked, did you
~
11 compile this'from.the operations controlilog orithe diesel; 12 do they have a separate log, a. diesel-log? And Kochery 13 says, control room log, regular log. Okay._ So I think:we 14 1 do have an answer to:the question ~here that that?Kochery 15 list was compiled from a cont ol log. Okay. p 16- Q- Right. 17 A out of this conversation,fyou-know, what I get is 18 I--you know, I've gone back, as I told Shipman I would, and 19 talked to Kochery and Stokes. I've tried to get into the 20 valid issue here. And we've realized that, you know, 21 they're--you know, if we have to use a consistent set of. 22 terminology, valid tests and valid starts, well, there just 23' weren't very many. ;Okay? And so that's--you know, I've 24' convinced myself that that's not an apprapriate way out.of _ 25 this problem like Mr. Shipman was trying to do. And, you ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 i Washington, D.C.'20006 L (202)'293-3950 L I l-l
~ ~
1 i < 1 l
.1 H4 3 -
1 know,~I've discussed with him - you'know, basically' going
- . 2. back and talking.to Kochery and' Stokes', you know
- is there; 1
}
3 any better information than this. And I' leave this' 4 1 1 4 -conversation, you know,;with a leeling, that. yeah, this111st ) i that:I--he'had given me is the best information-there-is. 5
)
i 6-And so that's the verification, you know,;that1I did' going
~
7 back and talking to Kochery and discussing ~the' valid \ issue: l 8 with'him. d 9 You know, I--the1 transcript isn't,.you~know, 1 1 t I '10
, ! complete and inaudible.,in a number of those instances.there, n . -
11 so--did you want to keep going with-- i 12 1-Q Let me ask you'this specific question at this; j 13 ) point in time. I know from reviewing;the_ tapes that youJ 14 talked'to Jimmy Paul Cash about when he-started his countzof f [ 15' diesel starts. Did'you ever--do you recall ever having a-1 1 $' 16 convursation with Cash about-the specifics of how he. arrived'
- 17 -at his numbers? ,
n 18 A i Well, that's a--that's an interesting question
- 19 'cause I've thought about that. You know, the time frame 20 we're in now is after April the 30th. .Okay.
And--or is. ,' 21 that tne time you're in? 4 22 Q The time frame--is that--that's the time frame '
- 23 that_you're thinking you may have had a conversation with t t
24 Cash about this issue? 25 A Yeah. I think.there might-- ,a i m t ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. 1 Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W.,. Suite 300-Washington,~ : D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
Y i l l- 1 I i 44 L 1 Q Right.
.. I 2 A I think also there may also have been a brief 3 conversation with Cash on the 19th. He may have popped into
)
4 Aufdenkampe's office for a brief period-of time. but I can 5 tell you this: ~ with the discussion on the'19th that I have 6 a vague recollection of and the conversations that I had i 7 with him like in the beginning of May after I gave the. ! letter to Bockhold, stating that I thought there was false B 1' 9 information given to the NRC, I was-assigned at that-later. 10 time to discuss--you know, to verify the information with 11 Cash. l And he never gave me anything detailed. 'Okay. It 12 was just generalities and, like,'well, it's up'to you. .And, 13 you know, I.was' supposed to--I was supposed to. work with 14 him. But he never, you know, other than saying-he looked at 15 the logs, getting into--you know, handing me a list, saying, 16 okay, this is how I counted it. You'know, I mean, Jimmy 17 Paul Cash is an SRO operations superintendent, you know. 1B Q And he never gave you a letter? 19 A He, you know, in his position and'with-his 20 training, you know, should pay great attention to detail, 21 You know, if he was going to provide information, you know, 22 for an important NRC presentation he would have had a very i e 1 23 detailed list, you know, line by.line, double- checked, you ; 24 know,.and everything. And when I--when I talked to him on 25 ; all the occasions I remember, he never produced--you know, J0Di RILEY &' ASSOCIATES,LLTD. Cour: Reporters 1612'K Street, N.W., Suite-300 , Washington, I - 0. 20006 i (202) I S :- 1950
- 45
~1 he;never produced a. list'that he had used. You know'---and 2 you4 have t'o realize I was: challengingiinformation that' he
- 3. :had provided'to Bockhold. And I'm, referring now tofther
~
4 information;provided in the 4/9 letter and transparencies. 5 He never produced anything. 6 Q. He was uncooperative with you?
.7 A-Well,,I won't say he.was uncooperative,7but he-8 never produced anything~that he had done,.you know, out of' 9 that effort. .He never gave-me, you know, details. ' He .
10
.never--he.naver went over with me start by~ start, you'know, 11 and saying,'well,-I consider that one to.be a success, you
.12 know, and,.well, you may be--and you're l'ist- *cause I-gave 13 him a copy--I had given.Bockhold a copy.of;my' tabulation-14 that I made for-Bockhold on April the'30th. And-I showed 15 Cash the same tabulation and was assigned to work with him-16 on this, and I never--you know, we'never--he never got into 17 the details with me. He never provided any_ lists that he 18 had provided.
You know, he didn't give me, you know,1the 19 logs that he had highlighted or, you know,7however he'went 20 about getting this information. He n'ver e gave me anything. 21 MR. KO104: Hold one moment. David Colapinto's 22 entered the room--if you wait one second. 23 [Brief pause) 24 MR. KOHN: Okay. He has left the room. He was 25 not able to hear anything. ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
- i l
46 1 MR. ROBINSCN: Okay. Thank~you. 2 YouLcan go back on. MR. KOHN: i 3' MR. ROBINSON: 'Okay. l8 4 MR. KOHN: I'm sorry forythat. 5 BY MR. ROBINSON: I L 6 Q So did you ever have a discuss ~ ion with' Cash about 7 i the criteria that he used.to judge ~what~was a suecassful 8 start and what wasn't? i 9 A No. He never--he never-in'icated to melany d 10 criteria.- I don'tLrecall him ever indicating to'me--you 11 know, I don't recall any detailed discussion with him. -The V 12 discussions were brief. He verified'with me that he had 13 compiled this information for Bockhold. He never.gave me 14 any of the stuff he provided Bockhold. And he pretty much ! t 15 just left it up to me, you know -- you know,-like--it was 16 almost like, well, whatever you.say.' And he didn't give msn' j 17 the criteria. 18 And I'll--one other thing: you have to~ realize i 19 that at the time, let's say, of 4:30 on, you know, some of 20 ! the--I had given Bockhold, you know,'now, at-that time the , i i l 21 memo that said both tha--you know, referred to all of the L 22 information we had given to the NRC in previous--you know, 23 and that's the 4/9 and the 4/19. And now by 4/19, you'know,- { 24 l^ we were--we had introduced, you know, some new terminology
- '25 about the comprehensive test program. And, again, in that l
L i l- ! l l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court' Reporters l- 1612 K Street, N:W., Suite 300 L Washington. . ; C. 20006 1(202 ) ' ; - :950 l-l. l [
_. . _. _.__ _ . . _ __ _-~~ __ 4 47 I 1 time frame nobody gave me any of.those--you know,; again, [ 2 we're talking basis. Nobody, you.know, talked.about basis. ] 3 Q And are you--I mean, are you pressing them'for i 4 4 this information and asking them forfit? '
; 5- A' No. I--no, I'was. net--I wasn't, well, telli '
. 6.
me--you know, tell me what the definition, you-know, is. (I l 7 think, you know,'we can--we can get into the;whole. ~ 8 chronology of what happened, you know,fwith that - 'you 1 9 know, witn ,that definition. I think that's a little-step 1-10 ahead-- ' 11 Q Right.
't 4'
12 A --of where you may want to go to from now, but--
~
} 13 Q Let me--while we're still--and.while we'reistill.
- 14 on April 19th and in the phone calls on April 19th, the list 15 that you had from Kochery, the handwritten list,'was that 16 just for.the one B' diesel or was it for.both' diesels?
17 A
- I think it--I think he had a list for both'of ;
- . 18 them. i i !
- 19 Q The reason I ask that question is that there' l
20
'apparently was a problem on the A diesel on. March 30th.
I 21 A Yes. 22 Q And you talked about the problems on the B diesel. 1 I 23 on March 22nd and March 23rd to Mr'. Shipman and Mr. i 4 24 Stringfellow. Were you concerned about the problem on the'A I 25 diesel on March 30th or do you recall that being on your I i i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. I Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300
' Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 4
1
I. i, +
'48' I 1. list?
? 2 At that' time'I was not aware of the' problem on the 4
'A !
L . . : i 4 3 30th where the diesel tripped due to a CALCON switch. And , 4 I--at that time I was not aware of it and was not concerned
- 5 about it.
! 4 J
- 6 Q So if this list that you had from Kochery was'both, 1
7 the A'and the B diesel and the B diesel went.through,.shalli ] p 8 we say, April 13th or into early April,'the A diesel list-
- j. 9 probably-went through that period of time, too,1didn't it? j i
10
.A .I couldn't say for'certain, but it might.
4 That- ) j 11 .might make some sense. 1 "1 12 So a--but the way-- Q H 1 i 13 A But I don't know. ' i 14 understand your testimony is is:that
- Q --I 15 regardless of what was on those lists or'thattlist at that I
i 16 '\
- s. point.in time on April.19th you were not.awarelof a problem j
? 17 on the A diesel?
)
18 A That's correct. And I wasn't) concerned abdut'it
- 19 'cause I didn't know about it.
! u 20 MR. ROBINSON: Let the record reflect we're; going j' 21 to go off the record'for.the court reporter to change tapes. i 22 It's now 11:42. 23 [Off the record momentarily]- j 24 MR. ROBINSON: .1And it's now 11:43 and we're back- ! 25 on the record. 4 ANN'RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.- ' Court' Reporters' i 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 4 Washington, D.C. 20006' ' i (202)' 293-3950 i . i
.~ , - , .._ . - _ - _ . .. - . . . _ . -
I i 1 l 49 1, BY MR. ROBINSON: 2 Q Okay. You can continue with the sequence of' l i 3 events that happened on April 19th after you--the ph'one call ' 4
'in your office to Mr. Shipman and Mr. Stringfellow and your 5 conversation with Mr. Kochery.
6 A Right. Well, after that.now I see anotherL I 7 . conversation pick up here on page 118, 8 -Q. And let the record reflect this is still page 118- ; 9 of the transcript of tape. number 57 or Exhibit Number 36. i I 10 A And at chis point I believe I'm back over with-l 11 -Aufdenkampe. ! 12 Q Okay. 13 A. Probably in Aufdenkampe's. office. I was just I 14 l l talking to Kochery, andLit's-over in the same building. And l 15 l so I come in and it -- again, based on the transcript here, 16 it appears that now at this point I may have that list, 17 okay, because the first thing I say on line 18.to John is,. 18 here's the trips. Okay? And'then John says, yeah, I got 19 them; Rick just talked to me about the trips. Okay?, 20 Meaning Rick Odom. 21 Okay. And it's also -- it's also possible -- it's 22 also possible that I may have -- when I was with Kochery,.I 23 may have, you know, picked up that copy. I don't know. You 24 know, maybe like the first time I may have see it and--when 25 i I just visited Kochery, 1, you know, actually got the copy l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court. Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, : 20006 g (202) :~- 450
)
I
, -I 50 , 1 1 from him. But it looks like I just'gave this l
~
I'm not sure. to -- you know, I proba'~bly handed that. list to John'and said 2 . . . i i 3 here's the trips. Okay? That's what'I'm remembering.
't 4 Q. But even'in the first phone-call --
i 5 A I had already seen it. 6 Q ---that you had with Stringfellow -- 7 A Yeah, I had already.seen it. ' 8 Q Oh '. So --
- 9 A Okay?- I can't.be sure if'I~actually;had the copyL E
10 then or if I had maybe just seen it writtenidown, a notation. -l 11 about them. Okay? I can't be real sure about it, and I'm 12 not sure those details, you know, are that'important,Lbut 13 John'says, well, he got them. I 14 ;Okay. And now on line 22' John says, there's'two1 15 of them, and then I say, yeah, there's.two trips: :one on 16 the 22nd and one on the.23rd. Jmd then John says Atlanta-- 17 what Birmingham is thinking now is that they may--is that. l 18 they may made a. material false statement in the April 9th 19 letter. i
. 20 Q Do you remember if John was referring to a
~
21 separate list when he was talking to you there, an Odom' l 22 list? . l 23 A That I.got them? J 24 .No. Q It sounded like he may have been referring to 25 a separate 711st. i i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300
' Washington, D.C. 20006-j
~ (2 02) c- 2 9 3 - 3 95 0 u.
3 s- 4 s, ,+4 --r . , - , e =
-)
- 51 1 A He says, yeah, I got them, okay; Rick just talked 2 to'me about the trips. It's possible that1what.he was - I ' i j
j, 3 :got them. Okay? I dont think he - :see,~it says I got ~ l 1 4- .them. ~He's not talking about what,, have given him 5 then. .Okay? I 6 Q. Yeah.
- )
7 A He's. talking about something that's separate that i 8- he had.- And he may have had at.that. time the Webb-odom l 9- list. 10 Q If there ever is such a_ thing. i 1 11 A If there is such a list. .: i Okay.- But he had;some-_ J 12 independent -- I believe he had -- is; indicating he had some I 13 independent knowledge of the trips at that point. . I guess i 14 that's what I can be sure of. And he knows~that there'were i I
- 15 two of them, and it also appears;to.me that he may have~had 16 a separate call with Birmingham since I.was there. You.have 17 to realize ~I'd probably been gone for an hour.or_so.
18 Q Okay. 19 A Okay? And because he's.saying Birmingham is l 20 thinking that they made a material false statement in the. I 21 April 9th letter, I don't think he had -- he's saying; 22 Birmingham is thinking. Okay? It-seems like he may have 23 had a separate call, just, you know -- !. 24 Q Yeah, as opposed to the calls that you and he were: i 25 both'on where -- ! ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. 4 Court Rep rters 1612 K Street'. !; W., Suite 300 Washingto..
- 2, 20006 j-
;(202) :* 1950 h
i I, s . -
. . , , . , , - . . . -. . - ~ . . . - .
-. . . - . . . - - . ~ , - - . . .. - - - - .
,1 52-l 1 A That we just participated on. Okay?. 2 -Q Yeah. okay.. ' 3 A And so, you know, I say, well, that would be a-l ~ 4 good thing for them to think about,fand then John says,. 1-
- 5 who'd he say.' McCoy, Hairsten, and Mcdonald are reviewing-n 6 this now. So I think that he's.probably had a separate j 7 . call, okay? And I think with that statement maybe he's 8 talked to Stringfellow again. Stringfellow would be a 9 likely person to have that' additional call from. They; 10 called frequently. And it would appear to me, you know -- I 11 interpret those words as indication, probably from.
12 Stringfellow,.that they've indicated that McCoy,.Hairston, 13 and Mcdonald are -- they're all reviewing that right'now. 14 Q okay. 15 A Okay? And that's page 119, line'5 and 6. 16 Q All right'. 17 A And then I say;.well,.I'm' going..to call bNck into. 18 Hairston's office-as soon as we get the operator,.and -- you 19 know, that's the other' thing I was working on.~. And then, 20 you know, I start a brief conversation about--you know,- 21 about using.the words valid, and -- I think odom's.present 22 here, too, okay, because right at the bottom of this page. 23 .odom's talking also. And also I'believe -- based on this
-24 line 5 and line 6 it would appear-that Odom may have been 25 present on'this call as well -- the additional call.
ANN RILEY s ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court' Reporters 1612:K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006
,(202);293-3950
l o l 53 i 2 1 1 Do you remember if -- when yo,u went'-back into
-Q
~Aufdenkampe's office and started talking toLhim-about the.
2
-3 trips and~-he! confirmed that he had something that indicated' 4' the trips.from Odom, do you recall if odom was'there at the 5 time?
6 A .Odom was either there or he was on the speaker- 1 7' phone with him. 8 o okay. Okay. 'You-know,~I don't -- that's right. 9 I don't -- well, I don't have'the' tape with me today, so we 10 -- k 11 A Yeah, you might be able to'-- 12 Q From the transcript'of:the tape we can't'tell at t 13 this time whether odom was there or whether he was on a -- 14 on the call'with Aufdenkampe. ' 15 A But from' John's words'here it would appear'to me 16 that;what I'm saying was probably a follow-up call: who'd 17 i he say; McCoy, Hairston, and Mcdonald are reviewing this ! 18 now. .; That comment is not made to me, okay, ' cause I'm -- I J 19 wasn't a party to anything where anybody said McCoy, 20 Hairston, and Mcdonald are reviewing this now. Okay? 21 Q Yeah, that's some -- that comment was not made to i i 22 -- 23 A That was not made to!-- 24 Q -- you on any phone call that you had been on 25 earlier. i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters i
.1612 K Street, N.W.,. Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 ,
.(202) 293-3950 l l
l l
;54 1 A Earlier, right. So --
2 Q ' I mean, Aufdenkampe's making that comment'to you 1 3 but -- yeah. 4 A No, I think Aufdenkampe is making that. comment'to ) l 5 Odom, who is either:on the speaker' phone or present. 'l. q 6 Q Oh, okay.- 7 , A .Okay. He starts talking to me'and I said:-- he - 8
- you know,'at first -- he starts-off, s'aying that 9
Birmingham thinks th3y made a material false statement.
- 10. Okay. He's saying :iat me to me, I believe. -And then I 11 say, well, that'd be a good thing for them to.think about, 12 and then he says, who'd.he say. Okay? And-I think that 13 comment is directed.to Odom for verification.
14 Q Okay. 15 A .Because I think Odom participated. Okay?- McCoy,- 16 Hairston, and Mcdonald are reviewing'this now. Okay?- And.I 17 think that comment is directed toward --'toward -- to Odom. 18- l so, you know, then I say a little bit-about valid, l 19 ! and then we have a'little further~ discussion about the i 20 i r.atement, and on page 120 -- Odom speaks on page 120.- John .! 21 says, it's misleading; Odom says, it's not wrong; it says 22 March 20th. I say, hold on; read it again. And so -- then 23
-finally Odom says, I agree; I see what you're saying-now; i 24 Q Okay. l 25 A And so there's a little bit of an argument, and
/ ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES,'LTD. Court Reporters ! 1612-K Street, f; . W . , Suite'300 Washington, ; :. 20006 (202) ; 9 ~- 1950 1
, .:..... +[- -- - ~ ' - ' i
t
~
- s. ,
. '55 ic Odom, I don't think, was viewing'the words;..he.was viewing '
.2 'them in some different way, but'it appears'that?he comes-3 Laround and, you know,.then agrees. .
~
- 4 Okay. .Then - -now we find out a littleebit
- here 5
i about the status of,the'Odom-Webb effort. 'And on page:121, d 6 line 21, Odom says, I'm not getting --12. haven't started-
- 7' getting that. data. Okay? And --
8 Q. 4 Do you know what data he would've been. talking l 1 9 about? ' i 10- {, A. That' data is the effort of sending =Webb into the-11 field for.the control room log' review. 12- Q Okay. s. 13 A And then I say, hold it; well, if-Tom's getting-- ! 14 the total starts history, he should concentrate on the B .
- 15 machine and get the' start 1information. So we're talking I
16 about.the Tom Webb effort. t 17 0 And Odom is Webb's supervisor; is that correct? 18 A Odom is Webb's supervisor, yeah. And John'says we 19 don't have the logs -- well, and then we. start talking about-20 the valid again, and, you know, I chime in and says, but the 21 letter doesn't use the word valid. Okay?, I'think some of 22 the people have introduced the word valid into this, but, of [ 23 course,
<e know one of this -- one of the' statements that i
24 were used used the word valid'. And, ..ike I said, anybody 4 25 that knew anything about this, you know, knew that, you ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington,' D.C. 20006 (202)- 293-3950 g - - - , -, _,, ,, ,_ , , , . , - . - - - , - - - ,,,,..-w, ,w c
L , , 4 56 : 1 know, we didn't have enough valid starts to' attest tof
. - 1 I
2 anything, okay, and.that we only.had one or.-- one or two.. 3-So I said you can use.the word validlin the-LER, but you'll ! t 4 have to change _the-numbers. Okay? 5 Q And you' re"just. talking to; Aufdenkampe and Odom - i 6 then? ~ 7 A Aufdenkampe and Odom. :And now I see Tom Webb. 8 And, you know,cagain, I don't know if he's come intofthe 1 9- room -- he may have come into the room-or he's been added on : to the speaker phone conversation. 10 ' 11 And'Webb says, do you feel like:ys should - 1 I 12 think we should do one.of two things;fjust;tell me.what you. l 13 think. We need to get rid'of the statement.insthe LER-about ' S 14 [
'how many failures or how:many-tests 3su've.got'altogethervor i 15
,else correct the misconception.that we generated.on April- '
16 9th. I don't know if we should try,to! continue thel ! i L 17 misconcepti'on that we started nine. days'ago.. 18 Q This is just Webb talking to you and Aufdenkampe 19 and Odom? ! i i j 20 A And Odom, yeah. ' 21 Q All right.. i 22 A l-Hell, I guess, you know, thiscshows'that.you've 23 L got a number of people ~-- a--fairly l.large. number of people,. L [ 24 you know: myself,.Stringfellow, Shipman, Odom,:Webb,"you 25 know, fall with.the mind set <-- with the' interpretation that
. ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES,.LTD.
p
- Court Rep:rters [
1612 K' Street, N W., Suite 300 Washingter. ; .20006 (2C2);; * - ISO J,,,--
. w * =--F~ * * " * * * * ' "* ~ '
57 1 we made a false statement nine days ago or when3ver on 4/9 2 and that what we're putting I this LER is a continuation of 3 that false statement. 4
-~ . odom says, I don't have all the control logs is my 5 problem right now. He's.got days missing; he'can go and 6
look-right now at what I've got and what starts on the days 7 missing. And so he's saying he has logs, but he has an 8 incomplete set. 9 Q Okay.
-10 A At this point I think Gus Williams gets involved.
11 Now, Gus Williams kept control room logs'because he did 12-reviews for performance -- plant performance, thermal 13 performance. So he kept a set of control room logs, so he 14 gets involved now because he might be a potential source of 15 getting some control room logs. 16 Well, anyway, you know -- and that tape then just 17 ends with discussions, and it's clear that, you know, 18 different people have some sets of logs, but nobody's 19 completed the review of the logs and still Tom Webb is 20 working on this. 21 MR. ROBINSON: Okay. It's now 11:59 a.m. We're 22 going to go off the record again for a short break. 23 [ Recess, 11:59 a.m. - 12 : 09 p.m. ] 24 MR. ROBINSON: It's now 12:09 and we're back on 25 the record. ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 , (202) 293-3950 L .
l 58 1 BY MR. ROBINSON: 2 Q Mr.'Mosbaugh, after your conversations with Mr. 3 Aufdenkampe and Mr. Odom and-Mr. Webb and Mr. Williams about 4' the status of the start counts and the fact that that hadn't 5 been completed yet, what happened'next in the sequence of 6 events on April 19th? 7 MR.'KOHN: Larry, I. lost you. 8 MR. ROBINSON: Okay.. 9 THE WITNESS: We'll speak up. I guess,'you know,- 10 what hadn't been completed -- and let me give you my. 11 perspective on this. I brought evidence,. facts.that-said' 12 this is false, okay, you know, what we said on 4/9 is false, 13 okay, to the varie' y of people that we discussed's 14 attention. Okay? And that went all the way up;to the top 15 in Southern nuclear, to their --'through various people in . 16 various and subsequent conversations. That the information 17 in the April 9th letter and what we were about to say in the 18 LER was false because of the presence of certain probleme 19 and trips and specific information that I gave on this. 20 Now, the verification, if you will -- you.know, I 21 had those facts. You know,.I had those dates, those times, 22 what tripped'the diesel, okay, what the -- what had tripped 23 on, high this, low pressure this, and so forth. And the 24 verification that needed to be done at that point was.co 25 prove that it wasn't false. Okay? You know, to prove - ' ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
59 1 you know,. prove that it's true. :The'information is --'you. 2' have to understand, information's on the' table that this1- -
~3 that these statements are not. correct.- Okay? .
4 ,Now,;the effort to prove that'it was correct was 5 on -- or could still be correct in:the presence of those 6 facts, is still ongoing. Okay? 7 BY MR. ROBINSON: 8 Q Okay. 9 A So'what went on after that last contrarsation where 10 we left off, I proceeded doing the job. I told Bill Shipman'I 11 was going to do, and that was to get the. operator.on the 12 phone and verify what-he first saw when he entered the 13 diesel room. . And so I do that, and the beginning'of this s 14 next~ transcript, the one that's -- 15 Q Which is identified as NRC Number -- Tape 58, 16 which was dated by Mr. Mosbaugh April 19th, 1990, Number 4, 17 and is also identified as Exhibit Number 38. 18 A Okay? Well, about the first seven pages of that.- 19
- seven or eight pages of that are my participation in the 20 operator discussion, and that's down in Jim Swartzwalder's 21 office. Okay? And we're on the phone with Mr.-Hairston.
22 And so now I'm going to go beyond that now. And 23 after that wrapped up, I the went back up to John 24 Aufdenkampe's office, which was on the floor above, and the 25 very first thing John said is well, Al Mosbaugh just walked ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington. : O. 20006 (202) la- 1950
l 4 - 1 60 1 in. And he was on the speaker phone with the offices in 2 ' Birmingham, and I was in John's office with the speaker 3 phone, and he and I were the only ones in his office. And 4 the on the other end in Birmingham -- and I'm not positive 5 where George Bockhold was located then, if he was actually 6 in Birmingham there or if he was at some other location on 7 another phone. I'm not sure of that. :Okay? 8 Q At another location on another phone at Plant 9 Vogtle? 10 A Yeah. Yeah. That he perhaps may have been. 11 Okay? 12 Q Okay. 13 A I wasn't aware of where he was at'that time or 14 not, but from my participation in the conversation, it was - ~ 15
- it did seem to me, though, that McCoy and' Shipman and 16 Stringfellow were in the office in Birmingham on the speaker 17 phone and that in this conversation -- also Mr. Hairston 18 comes into this conversation. And, again,.with any of these 19 speaker phone conversations, there is a possibility that 20 somebody else, you know, might have beer. -- might have .
21 participated. 22 Q And Mr. Bockhold is on this conversation, too? 23 A And Mr. Bockhold is definitely on this 24 conversation, yeah. 25 Q Okay. ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
61 1 A
'Okay?. One of the other people that I've --~that I 2
am not sure 'if'they were on this callL or not was Rushton. 3 He didn't say'anything, but, you know, I think there could'. 4 be a possibility he was on this call. At any rate -- so , 5 John, when I walk in the room, is talking about.the. diesel 6 starts. 7 Q John Aufdenkampe? 8 A John Aufdenkampe is talking:about the diesel 9 starts. And so he starts-saying, well -- this'is.page 8,: 10 line 7: we'll, the way -- and then he interrupts: ' Al 11 Mosbaugh just walked in, George, so I'll-put it on the
'12 speaker.
The way.my people came up with the greater than 20 13 starts is theyftook the 18 and 19 starts and -- based on the-14 April 9th letter -- and they went and checked and. found out 15 how may starts they had subsequent to April 9th, and that's 16 why you can say greater-than 20. Okay?. And -- 17 Q And his people'would be odom and Webb? 18 A His people was Odom and Webb, and they were-the 19 people that.had drafted this PRB, requested addition of a 20 specific number to the LER which hadn't been in there 21 before. 22 Okay. Then George Bockhold says, well, I think 23 you can -- greater than 20, you know, we even had more 24 starts recently. We had a start last -- the other night. 25 Okay. And so then Mr. McCoy says we need to make sure that ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES,'LTD. Court Rep:rters 1612 K Street, N W.. Suite 300 Washington I . 20006 (202) ~- 1950
62 1. we know the number of starts after we've_ completed the 2 comprehensive control tests program. And John says, well - ' 3
- he says, I do have people right now going out -- three of.
4 my people going out through their RLL logs. And then George 5 Bockhold chimes in: well, from:my numbers that I presented 6 at the conference -- and he's referring to the conference on 7
~4/9, the presentation to Ebnetter -- they were verified 8
correct by Jimmy Paul' Cash,'who went through the operator 9 logs. And McCoy then.says, you~ought to use those numbers. 10 Q Let me just interrupt for this moment and try to 11 put this particular phone call in a. time context. After you 12 had the conversation with Mr. Hairston and the. operator in
~
13 Mr. Swartzwelder's office and you came back up to Mr.. 14 Aufdenkampe's office, approximately what time of: day was it? 15 A This call is late afternoon on 4/19. And as-16 additional evidence that that was the time frame of this 17 call, right at the end of this call there is-some concern le expressed by John Aufdenkampe about how late his people are 19 going to have to stay, and -- because there's a possibility 20 that this may need a PRB -- some PR3 follow-up, and he's 21 wanting to know if he needs -- and I'll just jump to that. 22 Page 15, line 21: This is John. Are these all the changes 23 we're going to make because I don't think there',s any 24 substantial that needs -- anything substantial that needs a 25 PRB. Shipman says, I won't guarantee that, John. John ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
{ ~ 63-l' says, okay, so I need to keep someb'ody on standby to do' 2 that. Shipman says, yes, sir, you sure do. ;And-thendohn 3 says, okay,'I'll have whoever is going to be on standby give 4' Jack a call in-case, you know, .this thing drags on till 7:00-S
=or 8:00 at night or something like:that. Okay? ~So,;you 6 'know --
7 Q' What time would these people normally go homeland 8 leave the site?' . 9 A Let's say around 4:30, you know,.would be a normal
- 10. -- a normal quitting' time.
11 Q All right.: So that's - so you'ressaying late 12 aftornoon and -- 13 A Yeah, I -- 14 Q And-we may be. talking in the 4:00 or 4:30'because 15 John has to make arrangements to keep some people there at 16 that point in time? 17 A Right. Right. 18 Q Okay. Go' ahead. 19 A So, you know -- now, Mr. McCoy says you ought to 20 use the numbers. And so this is'where -- this is where what 21 finally goes into the LER is created. Okay?. And McCoy says 22 that what ought to go into the LER is the same numbers that 23 Bockhold presented in his conference. Okay? And so 24 Bockhold agrees with.McCoy's desire to use the same number, 25 and on page -- line -- 9 -- line' number 1, George says, ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES,.LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
64 1 okay, so we'll say greater than those numbers that were used 2 in the conference. ' 3 Now, at this point what had come from the s'.te, 4 you know, is being overridden. The wording in that section 5 is being overridden. The site prepared a segment of this - 6
- the last PRB-approved segment used the words 20 and I 7
believe used the words like since the event or. mince 3/20 - . 8 - used some kd of words like that. At this point that's 9 all being rewritten. Okay? .And it's being rewritten by' 10 Bockhold, McCoy, Shipman, and Stringfellow. They're 11 rewriting that section. Okay? So whatever the site ' 12 provided is now thrown out and we're going to use the words 13 that were in the conference, and so -- 14 Q The numbers that were in the conference? 15 A The numbers that were in the conference, yeah. 16 And McCoy then says -- page 9, line 3 -- those numbers you . 17 used in the conference were after they had completed the 18 comprehensive test of the control system on each diesel. 19 okay? So now the first time here the words comprehensive 20 test of each diesel is added, and it's -- and Bockhold 21 responds, that's correct: those numbers were not before that 22 time. So right now Bockhold is saying that what he said -- 23 whatever was said on 4/9 about there being 18 or 19 starts 21 on DG-1A and DG-1AB respectively -- whatever they said on 25 4/9 about that, 18 and 19, that also applies to those being ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Rep rters 1612 K Street. N.W., Suite 300 Washington. : . 20006 (202) ' . - '950
l i 65-1 the right numbers that had' occurred since they~ completed the comprehensive control system test of each~ diesel. 2 3 So Bockhold is confirming now that this wording 4 Lthat they're going.to put in the 4/19 LER would also have 5 ~ been appropriate wording to put in the 4/9 COA responses. 6 Well, he's saying that would have been a true statement then
'7 and it's a true statement now. Okay? Now, an after-the-8 fact review of that will find-that both of those are false.
9 Okay? But that's what Bockhold is saying: you could've 10 used that same phrase on 4/9 and it would've been true 11 'cause McCoy says those numbers'you used in the conference 12 were after they had completed the comprehensive test of the 13 control system on each diesel, and Bockhold says-that is 14 correct, those numbers were not before that time. 15 And now Stringfellow, who's the scribe and writing 16 all this down, he -- he's going to write down the actua3 17 words. And he says: let me make sure I'm clear; do we 18 want to say the comprehensive test program; do we want to 19 say that kind of stuff. I guess I'll have to say -- the-20 transcript's not complete here. There are -- 21 Q Some inaudible portions indicated on the 22 transcript -- 23 A There's an inaudible portion indicated here for 24 which we -- there are other transcripts that have that 25 filled in. Okay? And the submittal I made to the NRC in ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C.. 20006 (202) 293-3950
66 1 the -- June of '91, I believe, has some of those words 2 Okay. filled in.- , 3 Q Right. From your review of the tapes. . 4 A From my review. Okay? But'anyway -- so 5 Stringfellow says, do we want to say that kind of' stuff. And l~ 6 George Bockhold says, yes, we can say that. And then I l 7 guess there's another error here. .McCoy on line 12, I don't 4 8 think he says, that's pretty clear, at that point. I think 9 he says something about I just -- well, I guess all I can 10 say is that I think some of those subsequent transcripts i 11 have this more accurately identified, okay? 12 Q Which section of the transcripts that -- ' 13 A Section. l 14 Q -- you have prepared with Mr. Kohn -- i 15 A That I prepared. I've' listened to. I remember ! 1 16 from being a participant and I remember from subsequent I 3 17 review. i 18 Q Right. j 19 A Okay? All right. So anyway, Stringfellow then . 20 goes to write in the section of the wording, you know, that t 4 21 they're -- the diesels had been subjected to a comprehensive i , 22 test program, and subsequent to that test program there have 23 been -- and he's at this point writing the words that will 24 actually be the final words. 25 Q And you can't -- when you say he's writing the i ANN RILEY & ASS ZIATES, LTD. . Court Reporters 1612 K Street, ;; W., Suite 300 Washingtor. : .. 20006 (202) ;- e950
A 67 1 words, obviously he's in Birmingham and-you are in!-- at 2 '
. Plant Vogtle,land you're saying that because you'know that's 3 ..
4- A I know that's how'he does - - 5 ' Q. -- his' job and that's what he does.; 6 A And that 's how he - does his j ob . and ' -- yeahl - : and I i 7-that--- you know, that's what he would be doing..:And'that's 8 why, you know,'the.vice presidents.here'have~just spoke in- ' l 9 generalities as to what he wants, and,Lof course, he'll be-10
~
responsible for actually putting the' actual.wordsfdown. .So , 11 that's why he adds here, I want t'o'eake sure I'm clear,- 1 12 'cause he's the_ guy that's going to write it. 13 And so he goes over then in'this section where 14 there are a few inaudibles'what'he's actually going;to put 15 down. Okay? And so the Shipman says -- after Stringfellow 16 finishes that, you know, he says 18,or 19 -- you know, what 17 do you have in your, presentation, George. Okay. So again 18 we find out that what they're. going to put in there is what 19 they put in - 5 has the same basis, okay, whatever'that 20 basis, it is -- it has the same basis of what they put in on -21 the 9th. Okay? What do you have in your presentation, 22 George, 17 or 1E,oor 18 and 19, and then Bockhold answers, 23 18 and 19. And, indee'd, that's what he had. When you look 24 at'his overhead, it's 18 and 19 on A and B respectively. i 25 When you look at the COA, it's 18 and 19 on A and B., i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters ) 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 ) Washington, D.C. 20006. (202) 293-3950 ! l l l
. __ _ .-. _. . . . ._ _ ~ . _ . . - . _
68 'I
- 1. respectively. And then Shipman,says,.well, when we say _ !
.2 greater than 18, do we meanLmore than.18. Bockhold says,
.l t
.3' greater than 18 will be fine. So'what theyfdo is they :
.4 consolidate the wording 18 and.19 to just say greater- han !
5 18, so they can say one sentence is applying.to both'to , 6: simplify it. And so, you know, that's when they decidefto 7 put that wording in there. And at'this point what they've- { l 8 done'is they've added this. comprehensive-test program. 9 Q And they've take out the phrase: since-March 10 20th. <
-i 11 A And they've take'out sinceLMarch 20th. But even 12 though that-they've done that, it's clear thisLis -- you' \
j 13 know,- this is what actually happened contemporaneously, ' and 14 it's clear that, however they changed it here and however i 15 they added the words'about.the comprehensive test program,
.i 16 whatever they're saying now is based.on wanting to repeat l 17 what they said before.
And it's also stated that'whatever l 18 they're saying now wouldlhave also beenLtrue on'4/9, from 19 Bockhold's statements.
- 20 And also I see here that there.is a desire to say-21 the same -- to have the same numbers, you know.- The first 22 thing we say about what.do you want'to put in here,' ell',
i I 23 .let's put.in what we said before. There's an expression of' 24 desire, an i tent at the vice-president level to use the1 25 same numbers that they used before.- There's-no discussion I ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C.-20006' (202): 293-3950'
, - .- . - . , - - . _ . . . . __- -~- - . . , . . .
f i g6 9 - i i 1 'offthe. basis,:you-know,'and'I can say.that at'no' time'in. ,
- 2 'this conversation or in subsequent conversations,.recor'dedL f
'i t
3: and unrecorded, that I.can recall priorito this has there' j 4 been;any. discussion of what the content'of the comprehensive 3 5 test program _was, when:it. began,Jand.after these'words were i
- 6 added there was only confusion afterwards'as.to what
- it'
.t 7
meant as we got into the subsequent reviews and so forth' i
.8 ~
Q The only, discussion would haveJbeen the acceptancef j 9' of George'Bockhold's statement as to when he started'it - 1 '
- _ 10 the. count?- '
11' A Yeah'. Bockhold'said that the:18:and 191 applied' cut-d 12 4/9 to the comprehensive' test program as starts having since 13 the -- and, yeah, that's.the source.t 'You know,.Bockhold 14 said, that's true; you can say that; itlwas not before that 15 time. And -- but nobody defined it, you~know, and,~you-16 know, there's no careful definition,'you know; there's no 17 list being used, you know, where, you'know,. we're saying, i i is okay, well, the start on this date and time,or.this start
'l '
19 number is -- this is the definition of where we're going to 20 -- one of this had been used. 21 Q And we'll see that in your subsequent. phone call 22 with Mr. Shipman, but go ahead on this call. i 23 A Yeah. So now we -- the call continues, and this 24 was a fairly lengthy late-afternoon phone call with all 25 these comments. We started talking about what the operator ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reperters 1612 K Street, N W., Suite 300 Washington. : 2. 20006 (202) I'- 5950
. -. . . - - .~
i i i r i 70 t 1 ..saw and.--
-{
2 Is_this the point in time when.Mr.-Hairston Q --T 3' A Yeah. 4 0 -- comesTback-into the phone call? i 5 A Yeah. And that is - .that is right where'we are. ; q 6 Q So the decision ~on the new language thatrMr. r : 7 Stringfellow is going to scribe into th'a LER'hassprettyfwell ^l 8 already been made before Mr. Hairston comes.back onto the ! 9 call; is that correct? J; 10 A Well, before we hear -- before we-hear Mr. ; 11 Hairston' speak -- 12 Q_ okay. - 13 A t
-- as to when he actually entered the room we-14 can't say. t 15 !
Q Theoretically:he:could've entered'that room as 5 16 quickly as you entered Aufdenkampe's room after you hang up' 17 from the operator's conversation? i 18 A Yes. Yes, he could've.- ' t 19 Q But at this point in time in the~ tape is the first 20 time in this conversation where Mr. Hairston's presence is-21 acknowledged and he starts talking? 22 A Yeah. I'm trying to -- trying to find the first 23 entry. Where we start off is we just start off on-page:11, 24 talking about the conversation with the operator, and Mr. 25 Shipman says, you know, he didn't' lead the operator -- he'is ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300
' Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950' 2
l
)
~i
!71. -
-i referring to Mr. Hairston at-that point. LThis -- oh, here.'
1 - s2 .Okay. 'I'm sorry. Itthought that was a B.,'G.Hi,. okay, 4 ;
~ George Hairston right here~on.line 11'. . Okay. lIs - .so.
[c 3 .
.i
}> 4 shortly after Shipman says he didn't lead the operator,- 'I i.
- . 5 referring to.Hairston,'then
- Hairston goesTon to explain.what'- !
6 the operator had told him on line 11. Yeah. U 9, i; 7. Q Okay. [ 8 A And.then George Hairston continues'to partic'pate- i 9 in-the conversation then afterLthat, yeah. And so he. [ [ 10 participate's for a couple of pages.here. We're stillr l
- 11- talking about the notifications on the Eland -- there's a'
.i
- ' 12 lot of inaudible there. Okay. Can't even follow where tint 4
13 fits. I , .+ 14 MR.' ROBINSON: .It's now 12:33., And we're going to !
.i 15 take a short break offithe record.
h
] .
. 16 [ Recess, 12:33 - 12:36 p.m.); '
17 MR. ROBINSON: All right.. ;It'is now 12:36.and ; 1 18 we're back on the record. l 19 THE WITNEES: Okay. So I guess the~ discussions 4 1 20 about the other comments, what the operator:saw, and some of ? ! 21 the notifications, then that takes us up through about page 22 12, line 5 or 6. And then I think after they wrapped up' ' 1 23 that -- some of those discussions, Shipman is leading the \ 2 s 24 discussion here of the LER comments, and in this 25 conversation they're -- they are -- they are creating the 4 ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W.. Suite 300 Washingten. :.0. 20006
- , (202) ;'- *550 -
e l 1 vv-, m, ,. ,, -e,. ,,,g., ~n, m,-., r-,,, .-~r .y.- c-
l 72'
'l final -- the' final revision,'the final. product LER that's 1 2 going to be signed out. And they've made the few changes, .
. 2
.like we talked about before,-on the'way the dieselJstarts is.
3 4 going to be worded, and they've done some'ofithese things ' 5
-l
'with notification. ,
6 And-then Shipman, who's leading. discussion, says,_ l 7 what other questions do we have to- the group, mH1 then 'he ' .t 8
~says, we got'the start thing.- 'we.got the start. thing' I
9 straightened out. Okay? And so whenlhe -- when he says 10 that, Hairston is present,on the call. And Stringfellow- l 11 starts to respond to Shipman and says,;the otherLquestion we ' 12 had, Bill, was -- and Hairston-hears that,_and he -- you 13 know, you got to look at now who is here. Hairston is the '! 14- senior vice president, nuclear, and so everybody in the room; i i 15 i reports to him, with some of the people being, you know,. 1 16 manyl levels below him. He's the top senior vice president l 17 there. And he is immediately interested.in the' fact that'
. 18 Shipman has~just said we got-the start. thing-straightened 19 i
out, which indicates that he knew that there -- you know, he j 20 has a lot of-interest in this. l-He' knew there must be.some ' 21 question about the start thing. And this start thing: 22 relates to the diesel-starts. 23 BY MR. ROBINSON: 24 Q Well, I do believe that there is an indication 25 that -- from the earlier draft of.ths.-- of the LER as l ANN RILEY Tm ASSOCIATES, LTD. 'i Court. Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300-Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293~3950 ' l
= , . , - - - [--[ y ., y , --v- %- - - -
y'% ="*g Wr s4 =w- rv=
, .. - . . - . -- - ~. . - . ..
I 73 '1 1
. approved by the PRB that Mr. HairstonLwascinterested in 2
. verifying that there were greater than 20' starts lon ea'ch
- 3. machine.
4- A .Uh-huhf[yes).: 5 Q -So,-yes, he.has ayinterest in that~ start data'. i 6 MR. KOHN: Al, you're lookingEatia/ document? l ' l l- :
-7 /THE WITNESS: -A transcript.- 'I 8 MR. KOHN: Okay. Good. i 9
THE' WITNESS:. Yeah. So the first-thing'Hairstone 10 says is we got:the s' tarts, so we didn't have no trips -- iso 11- we didn*t have no'-- we didn't have no trips.is what he i 12 says. . 13 BY MR-. ROBINSON: 14 Q Question?
?
15 A . Question. Okay. So the fact'that there'wereL i 16 trips -- the, quote, verify - you know, putting what.you i 17 i l mentioned, Larry, in time sequence the~- . verify the 20.
' l t
18 starts happened first, in the' morning maybe of the 19th. 19 The information that there were. trips happened was 20 information I brought to Aufdenkampe's and Stringfellow'.o- . 21 and' Shipman's attention afternoon and then a little. bit 22 later on the separate call with shipman. Okay? 'And then on-23 the call after that, you know, Aufdenkampe makes the 24 statement that Birmingham thinks there's -- was a false 25 i statement and they're all discussing it between McCoy, ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K. Street, N W., Suite 300 Washingter. -
-2. 20006 l
(202) . - - :* ? 5 0 I I
J l u-74; j- .1 - ~Hairston, and Mcdonald. Okay? .'So the fact'that there were 2 trips;is a piece of information'that came to-light'after the- I 3 request or.-- ' 4 Ql 'Right. 5- A -- you know, after the' request to verify. .So now .: 6 -it's brought into question whether or not there were 20: 1
, 7 starts or not. And, in fact,.you know, based on the-8 ' discussion it's acknowledged that the-statements are not' ~
l 9' correct in light.of the fact there were trips.
/
So- - 10 Hairston says.so we got the trips; we didn'tLhave no-trips. j 11 And the Shipman is hesitant. Okay? -He;.says -- i 12 Q Hairston says so we got the' starts ~-- 13 A We got'the~ starts. 14 Q -- so wa didn't have no. trips.. 15 A So we got the-starts, though we didn't have no -- ; 1 16 we didn't have no trips. ; 17 Q Right. 2 18 A' fokay. And Shipman says no,'and he's kind of ~ l 19 hesitant: not --~not, with hesitation in-betwaen those nos
. 20 and nots. And with that then, McCoy kind of jumps;in to 21 rescue his subordir .
Shipman's response, okay, he's j 22 going to help hia And says, you know,-let me -- I'll 23 -- I'11 testify c .t . And then Mr. Shipman comes.back-4 24 with: .just disa v.. And then Bill Shipman, again, whos 25 leading the conversation, says what else'do'we have,-Jack. ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 1
-(202) 293-3950
/
, ..w,,
l i 75- ; 1 .And then conversation moves on to other' topics and does.not 2 go back,-you know, to this discussion. '
)
-i 3 Q At that point in. time, Mr. Mosbaugh,~did you hear 4 that conversation, what was:said?.
5 A I heard that conversation, but-I'did not hear-all - 6: of -- all of what I just repeated'from the transcript. ' 1 7 okay? ' 8 Q And when did you first realize what was,said r i 9 there, what was actually said-there?- 4 l' 10 A Okay. When I first realized the specific 11 sentences and words that I just went over was in -- all-of j f12 them -- was in -- sometime between spring and summer of. 13 1991.
-l 14 Q Okay. And what --
l 15 A ! What I heard -- what I heard - JI heard that . 16 conversation. I was there, I was a participant, and I heard- !, 17 most all of that. conversation. And when I heard it, it ! ) 18 bothered me what I had heard :'cause zI- didn't understand what- l l 19 was going on fully, but aspects of.it were suspicious. 20 Okay? And I had suspicion of, you.know, what did I just 21 hear, you know. What I heard was, most of all, that: so we 22 got the starts, and Shipman's reply to Hairston, and the -- 23 and I heard -- I heard Mr. McCoy-said -- that he would 24 testify or that he had testified or he was going to testify 25 about that. Okay, I heard him say that. 4 ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters " 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
6 76-1 I did not-hear at that time the words -- the two-
- 2 words that.Mr. Shipman said about disavow. I didn't hear..
/ 3 that then.- I don't know if I was concentrating on what- . !
. . i McCoy had just said about testifying, was thinking about 4
i
- 5 that,-but
- I-just didn't, you.know, hear McCoy - .or'I'm' .l 5
' l 6 sorry -- didn't hear Shipman say disavow then. But I was - <! t ! 7 -.it did bother me at the time that'in response'to this
'i 8 discussion McCoy was saying he was going to-testify.about it.
)
j 9 and that in the context of this conversation I didn't -- I 10 didn't understand why he was talking about testifying.- Thata
- l 11 seemed out of place to me and I was suspicious. '
12 And the other thing was the way,the conversation-13 You know, this was extremely-important to left this area. j l 14 'Mr. Hairston. And when you review this section here, you . p 15 know, you look at it, and. Shipman brings this' topic up and- l 16 l it gets Hairston's great.. interest, and then me have:only .j 17 1 three sentences after that, very brief sentences,;you know, 18 said back to Hairston. And-each'one is addressing theib ; 19 boss. 20 l You know, you can tell listening to'the > l $ 21 conversation that -- you know, Hairston's the senior vice !
; 22 I president, he's real concerned about trips, and each one of 23 these people, you know, respond directly to him on that.
i 24 You know, he says first we didn't have no trips, and so 25 immediately Shipman says no, not -- and I don't know if he's i
; ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington.
- O. 20006 (202) ;- 3950
- 2
~
77
- l' going to say not reallyl or
- not" this, but he's ' struggling to 2 answer that questioniwe-didn't' have:no trips. And that's 3
. kind of a double-negative question, so he may not,have_ -
e .4- understood what' response was required or was in the' 5 affirmative there,' anyway.
- 6 And then -- and then McCoy, you know,csays,'you- >
17 know, let~me -- well, I think he's, you know, going toDsay. 8 well,:let me explain. I think.that's, you.know, kind of 9 i what he's interjecting, and then he says, I'll testify to
; 10 that. Jmd then Mr.- Shipman offers 'the final advice to 5
-{
- . , 11 Hairston, and then -- and, again, they. move right'on. Okay?'
y 12- Now, if Mr. Hairston wasn't part of-the earlier. 13
. conversation where the wording was revised, you know, why 1
I 14 wasn't it explained, well, okay, we said'this before, but I 15 1 this is what we're going to say now, and, well, the point of 16 reference before was the event, but we changed'the words 17-here now to refer to a comprehensive test program,'you know, 18 and we've checked this out, and - .you know, he~was -- 1 j 19 - . - 5 Hairston was concerned enough, you know, that he apparently l; 20 made this notation to verify this, and this-conversation's I 1 L 21 so brief. I mean, you know, we don't -- we don't -- we ! ! 22 don't say anything in here.to give Mr. Hairston assurance of i H ) 23 the question he's just asked. We rapidly move it out of ( 24 this area and we don't come back to it. And so some of 25 those things seem real suspicious to me at the time even i i ! ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters ' 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 l , (202) 293-3950
. . . , . ,. .. .. - . . , .~. --- ..- . - . . . .
l lt L l 78 1 though I didn't' hear the word disavow.- I 2 'Q' And when did you recognize that'that was what was
- 3. said?
)
4 A. Well, the reason why I went b'ack and l'ooked'at ] 5 this was~when -- in September of 1990 I filed,a' petition, a, . 6 2.206 petition, and then in about'-March'-- spring of 1991, .i 7 Southern Nuclear, SONOPCO, Georgia Power responded, you j 8 know, to that petition.. -And when I got the petition 9 response, you'know, I was.-- I was quite shocked.with'some' 10- of the_ responses. i a,
'11 And one of the items in there was the. statement '
l 12 that although Mr. Hairston was not'a participant on the ' 13' late-afternoon' phone call where'the final'-- where the-L 14 wording in the LER was revised -- I think that's,close to-15 what words were in there --'you know,:he had every. reason.to 16 believe.that it was correct, et cetera, jet cetera. 'And when 17 I read that - .you know, first jumped out at me was, well, ' 18 he was a-participant; he was a participant to the late- l 19 afternoon phone call which finalized, you know, the LER. : i 20 wording in which the LER wording was revised because this is i 21 the last call where -- of the day -- this is.the last call l 22 that occurred where the wording was revised. The wording i 23 that was introduced here is what was signed out in the final 24 LER and no changes were made after this on other calls. You 25 know, there were other calls, but no wording changes were ANN RILEY & ASS 22IATES, LTD.
' Court Reperters 1612 X Street, YW., Suite 300' Washing:cn. ; 2. 20006 (202) . ;-- 950
I 79 1 -made on other calls. 2 And so this is the call they were talking ab'out, 1 1 } 3 and they'said Hairst'on didn't -- was not a: participant.- ( 4: Well, I knew that was. wrong, and so what'I.did'is;Ifgot a. 5-l
-duplicate of this_ portion of this' tape that I had retained:
}
6' 'i and that -- I' reviewed'this section..-And when I reviewed l 7 this section,.I' heard all these things that I've_just quot'ed
- 4. 8 outofthetranscriptandespeciAllythenewwords,:th$
,9 "just disavow," that I hadn't picked.up on'at the original 10-occasion that I -- that I heard this firsthand.
) 11 Q okay. 12 A 4 I And, you:know, I hear it very clear. That's' l t 13
' exactly what he says, you know, and,'you know -- he says 14 1 disavow, and there's no question in my mind about.that. ,
15 Q All right. And was --'were.there1any'other -- 16 after.Mr. Shipman moves the conversation on'to a different
~
17 '
' topic, was there any other final conversation cn1 that . phone call with that group of folks:
18 , Hairston, McCoy, Shipman,
- 13 Stringfellow, Bockhold, you, and Aufdenkampe?L;Any,other.
20 i conversation about the. diesel starts and how you were' going 21 to report those? 22 A No. That wording, you know, was finalized and 2 23 then'this participation here with Hairston about the diesel ! i , 24 starts and the trips, and then that was it. 25 Q Okay. 1 ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters i Suite 300 4 1512 K Street, N.W., Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
-l i
u 80 1 A .That was it. . And then'at the end of that call, ' j .2 you know, we had the section where it places the time frame j, 3 of that call-where John Aufdenkampe's~ concerned about . . 4 holding people'over into the evening,'PRB review, seven'and-S- eight o' clock, and.so forth. 5 j 6 Q -And was there another phone call with you'and 7- 'Aufdenkampe-and Shipman and~Stringfellow'after that? 8 A .'Yes, there was a --'thore was another call'. -And I' j j 9 believe Mr. Shipman called back sometime after this call'. O 10 Q And, you know, using that transcript to refresh, 41 11 your memory,'what-took place on that call? 12 [ Witness reviews' document.) 13 A Okay.- . Yeah.. Shipman called'backiand'I;was'still' 14 in John Aufdenkampe's office and Shipman wasicalling John. i. 4 15 He wouldn't have known that I was necessarily still in 16 John's office. And he began to. talk about the diesel start 17 counting again, and on page 23,~line.7, Shipman,says-the
- 18 problem with that is is'that the number is going to be 19 significantly less, I think, than'what.-George told Ebnetter i 20 and,'you know, it's going 'to . create a selling . job for me, I 21 think, but eventually that's.the only.way 1 we.can tellLa 22 valid story that, you know, we can defend.if somebody calls
- 23 Al Mosbaugh,' Bill Shipman, and John Aufdenkampe again to -
1 24 testify. 25 Q And I think before he made that statement, though,- ! j ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. i j g Court Reporters
'1612.K Street, N.W., Suite 300
+
. Washington, D'C. 20006 l
(202) 293-3950 i i
.l
~
. - . - . . - -. - . - - . - , .a .- ~
J r t 81 . 1 he was talking about the possibility of using the point of' 2 declaration of operability :-- ~ ' i 3 A- ' Yeah. , 4 Q -- for the starts? 5 A Yeah. Yeah, I'm just trying to scan this one ' l' 6 here, Larry, and -- ' 7 Q Right. i 8 A Well, yeah, that was one of the options.that, you' d 9 know, Shipman had begun, you know, talking about. We could , 10 , solve the p'roblem created by this information by using valid l 11 starts, you know. 12 Q 4 Well, that was -- that was earlier in the day? a 13 A Right. 14 i Q At this point in time obviously you're still- ,j 15 ' l struggling with when the end of the comprehensive control i 16 test program was and you were trying to. find that-point. 17 And -- e 18 A i well, nobody -- yeah, nobody defined that' point. 'i ! 19 Q That point was never defined to anyone, to your ! 20 knowledge, on April 19th, was it? 21 A That's right. 22 Q And so from my review of that tape and that a 23 1 transcript, Shipman was suggesting the possible option of 24 starting the' count at the time the diesels were declared 25 operable, if I'm not mistaken. 4 ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washingtor., .. 20006 (202) ;": 3950 4
82-1 A Uh-huh, yes. Yes. 2- Q And'that's what prompted his statement -- 3 A -That -- that's --
'4 Q- -- saying that:--
5 A That's-right. 6 Q - - that the count would be significantly_less. 7 A That's right. 8 Q And that - .why do you think that would have 9 created a selling job and who would he have had to sell? 10- A. Well, I think, you know, he meant a selling-job 11 with the NRC is what I believe he meant. 12 Q Do you -- at this point in time the language in 13 the LER has been pretty _much finalized by Shipman's 14 management, McCoy and Hairston, in that earlier _ phone call; 15 is that correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And to start talking about a number of counts 18 after the diesels were declared operable,Jit'seems to,me 19 that it would have created a selling job even to his own 20 management now to start changing the language'again; is_that' 21 correct? In other words, they're talking about starting it
- 22. 'after the completion of a control test program --
23 comprehensive control' test program sad ~ Shipman throws out. 24 the suggestion of starting.it after they,were declared 25 operable, and it sounds like he realizes.that it's going to ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. < Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washingtcn, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 '
4 j a.
.(
83 1 -.it would create a selling job for him.to-use'less numbers- ! 2-than were in the presentation, would create a' selling job'to r 3 'him with his own management. 4 A [; Well, he may7h ave' meant that, but I!believe.he S' ~ meant the~NRC.as-well. i And.the. reason why is'the problem I !' 6
- - -with that is that'the number is. going to be'significantly-
.7-less, I think, than~what George told Ebnetter.: -So this is
~
a 8 this concern about a'. change of data --
- g 9- Q- Okay.
10 A Okay, versus what the NRC had been told-11 i
.previously. _so-I believe=there's a -- there'may be'a' I 12 1 concern with his own management, okay, but I=believe there 13 is a significant concern of' presenting.the.NRCLany data;- . 1
- - 14 !
4 any information that isn't,.you know,. equal to or greater ! i 15 1, than what they were told before...Okay. And his mention. 16 here again of what' George told Ebnetter, I think, is.a 17 indication of that. t la Q' Okay.
- But you end up discarding the idea'of l p 19 starting after they're operable, anyway; right?
i 1 ! 20 A . We'end up discarding that. And, of course, then, 21 t you know, in retrospect there were, you know, again; only j 22 2 one -- one or two, you know, starts or so after they were i 23 declared operable -- you know, very -- a very small number. l 24
; It may not have been one or two but only a very small number 25 of starts, you know, after that.
i i i-j ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. 4 Court Rep:rters 1612 K Street. N W., Suite 300 Washingten : 2. 20006 (202) ;- '250 1 i
-w r-- u yy .m-- , g y.
. , . . .. - - - -. - - - . -. - - _ - _ - ~ _ _ - - _ - - _ - - .
84' 1-1 And we have some. discussion here about -- in the -I 2 course'of this section about -- well, youLknow, Shipman 3 indicates what he. thinks'Bockhold meant, okay, about ,' 4 Bockhold's claim about, you know, coming out of outage, you
. i
- 5 know, and that kind of terminology, and we had some
- ' 6 discussion about'that. And I sayLto Shipman, well, you i
- 7 know, one of the failures, you know, were when theylwere I j 8 doing an eig.'.t-hour loaded run. Youlknow,.I say-IL--iyou l 9 know, one of,these failures that-I've told him about is when-10 we were doing an eight-hour loaded'run, and.Ies, aid, you-11 know, I,sure hope tx) hell that we had recalibrated the e ;
4
- 12 instruments, you know, before we were, you know, going toido
^
W 1 13 .an eight-hour loaded run of the diesel. ' i 14 And, you know; so -- you-know,-there's more. 15 discussion about that and'what Shipman. thinks'Bockhold i 4 16 meant. ! You know,.I guess all this discussion'--lyou know, l 4 17 all.this rehash of well, should we do it,1you'know,.back: t
- )
le when we're declaring this operable or,_yo'u know, whateser 1 19 George's logic was, you know, as to the coming out of j 20 maintenance issues and all that.-.You know, we're rehashing. E 21 all this here,'and, you know, kind of the question is,-- , 22 ' Shipman's_ speaking lfor Bockhold. Okay?- Bockhold thought . 23- this and Bockhold.-- you know, all the time here we're. 24 talking.about, you know, what George told Ebnetter. .ThatJ ' + 25 was cni page 23, line 23 rnd 24. That was the logic' George d ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court. Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 e.. Washington, D.C. 20006. (202) 293-3950 IhP
-.,4
.85 1 used. Okay? And, you know, we talk about -- and talking.to 2 Jimmy-Paul Cash. And so we're -- you know, Shipman keeps 3
talking about what Bockhold thought or must have thought or . 4 what his bases were. But Shipman's calling Aufdenkampe. p 5 Okay? { 6 Now, the way'an LER works, you know,-and the ( 7 preparation process here'Is that, -you know, the site !! 8 prepares, you know, initial drafts, and then at someLpoint l d-9 the resporsibility transfers,'you know, to corporate.;~And a 10 r at-this point we're literally hours before it's going';to be 11 revised. The responsibility is in corporate. l In fact,Jthe y 12 scribe for the revisions is now -- is now Jack Stringfellow. 13 okay. , And in all the information of what'-- of the final-4 14 wording that we just put in this LER wasn'tLput in by the -
~
4 15 - you know, the 'vording is not -- John Aufdenkampe isn't .; 1. 16 .saying on this previous conversation, well, let's word it 17 like this, you know; let's say the same thing we'oaid in.the 1 le 4/9 presentation. Ken McCoy is saying that,': the vice i i 19 president. i George Bockhold's saying, yes, you.can say that. ' 20 Okay? And they're writing it down. i i 21 So this is moved, you know, two and three levels 3 22 of management above, you know, Aufdenkampe and myself and 23 the people on site. They have written these'-- thisEfinal. 24 wording that's going in here. And now Shipman is calling' ! 4 25 back to the site:-- to Aufdenkampe, who doesn't report in i a ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. ' Court Reporters l' 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 " i
& soM ;-o. E'H **A s--- iM-r m4-F .p. - a ---, - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - , - - - - - . - - - , - - - , - , - - - -
d ' 86 i 1 1 " any way to' Shipman -- you know, I'm the duty manager; I l i
- e report to Shipman if he wanted, you know, som' e thing. [You. )
2 1 3 know, Stringfellow is the' interface with Aufdenkampe. He's 4 calling back to Aufdenkampe and in a sense wanting the site. ; i l 5 to buy in to the'way this is going.to go out. Okay? ; 6 And - but Bockhold is the source. Bockhold .11s l q ~7 the source of-the phraseology here,~okay, but he's calling 4 i 8 l 1 Aufdenkampe to get a site, you know, buy-in here.- Okay?- 1 9 And that's out of -- that's out of character -- out of-i I 10~ context, it seems to me, you know. They've decided how this l l i 11 wording's going to be. This.certainly should be hashed out t t ! 12 i between Bockhold and shipman, you know, not' kicking itLdown , 13 to Aufdenkampe. And Aufdenkampe is not -- he.doesn't'have '- t, j 14 - he knows there's conflicting data,;he knows'there's the- 1 i 15 a trips, and he has not verified that it's not-false,_'you ' 16 know. The data from Webb and Odom hasn't come back yet -
.I 17 And yet Shipman's, you'know, pressing him to say, you know, !
! 18 well -- you know, you say at least l'J times, and , 19 Aufdenkampe's -- well, says, I mean, somebody has gone and i 20 validated that data, you know; that's what George = presented. 21 Q Aufdenkampe said that?
- 22 A-i-
Aufdenkampe says that. ,That's the bottom of;page 23 25. Aufdenkampe doesn't have independent knowledge -- he g 24 has independent knowledge that there's a problem, but he has 25 -- doesn't'have independent knowledge to' confirm that the '< ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. ! ' Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 ) i Washington. : 2. 20006 } (202) IL- 1950 l 4 3 2
.r,-- .y , n p , - . . , h. ,.y a _.i , er-. . - , - , , , e ,
I 87 l } 1 statement isL true. 2 'Q And'nobody.knows what George'Bockhold's definition 3 of the end of~the comprehensive control' test program is at . . 4 that point? 5- A Nobody knows what it is -- 6 I Q Other.than -- l ~ 7 A -- except we know that whatever it{is it also-t i 8 applied on 3/9;;according to the source, George Bockhold. l 9 Q On 4/97 6 aj 10 A On 4/9, yeah. We know that.' !
, 11 Q- Right.
i 32
! A Okay. And we also know that, whatever his 13 definition is, his source was-Jimmy Paul' Cash. ; 14 Q. But.there comes a point-in time in that ! 1 i
15 conversation where Mr. Aufdenkampe essentially, tells Shipman 16 that he can go ahead and use the language that they had l i7 constructed in the earlier phone call; is that. correct? I 18 A Well, let me see if I can -- let me.see if I.can' 19 find that because', you know, my general recollection of the. 20 conversation is -- is that -- is that at some point John i 21 said something like, George must have - 'must have been 22 right or George must have know. And;let me see if I can 23 find that section. ,j p 24 [ Witness reviews document.]
< l 25 MR. KOHN: Hello?
4 I a l
} ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters I 4 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 l (202) 293-3950
.l ! l
I j 88: ); l' MR. ROBINSON: We're still here. l
. I 2 BY MR. ROBINSON: )
i 3 Q Okay. We're at'page 25, line 24. 4- A _ Yeah, I think that's what I may-have-quoted 5 before. l
- \
6 Q Yeah, Aufdenkampe refers to the fact _that somebody l 7- had -- somebody had gone; ahead and validated that data. Lone l 1 8 could assume that he was talking'about Jimmy Paul Cash- l l 9: having gone ahead and validating that data for Bockhold, j 1 10 A Well, I --tyou know, I can't speak for John).but 11 having been present through~the conversation,Jif you recall, > 12 ~ when George talked about that -- you know, in the'. earlier'. 13' call George said, you know, yes,,you~can say that Jimmy Paul 14 Cash went through the operator logs, and, you'know -- and.so 15 it was all said in the same kind of_ sentence,'and I think' 16 John's' remembering, you know,.the'same -- the'same comment. 17 And, you know --'and Shipman says,.you say at least 18 18 times, huh.. And John says yeah and shipman.says okay.- And 19 John says, I mean that somebody had gone andLvalidated that 20 data. And that's what George presented. Okay? And so, you 21- know,' if that's -- you.know, if that's the --Lyou know, what 22 you mean to, you know, say that he --< l 23 Q No. Go ahead. Go ahead with that -- 24 A Say the rest of it? 25 Q Yeah, and the'on the ntxt page.. ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. ' s Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N 'a.. Suite 300. { Washingter. : . 20006-(202) ;'-- 3950 _! ;
. . . ~
\
1 a i' 89 1 A Okay. The -- and' continuing'-- I mean, somebody 2 had gone and validated that data and that's what George . I 3 presented. : The dataLthat's been offered to.us doesn't_ bring. - l 4 into question that data. .Okay? That's what Aufdenkampe l' 5 says. : I 1 j 6- Q Okay. 7 A And the voice says okay, and John'says, it tends 8 to support that data;'would you take exception to that',- ; 4 9 Allen. John says that to me. ! 4 I guess.-- 10 Q Right. ' 11 A
--.'cause I don't answer.
12 Q Right. ' 13 A Okay, We're going to go with that. Jack is i 14 grinning from ear to ear. ;
' Okay? -Shipman. Then John says !
15 the only issue is we can't let people be misled, think that 16 there were not failures until we started doing.that. count. 17 Q Right. e. (
, 18 A Okay. Then Shipman says and we say -- we say that 19 after 3/29 event the flow system -- the flow system with 20 both engines has been subjected to' -- af ter'3/297 Oh,.three i- 21 -- okay.
Must be 3/20 event. J 1 22 Q Right. 1 I 23 A Has been subjected to 18' times each and no. 24 failures or problems occurred during any of these starts. 1 { 25 Q At this point do you recall Aufdenkampe asking y:n i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. l Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300
' Washington, D.C. 20006 4 n (202) 293-3950
l l . 1 90 1 if you would've take exception to what he just told shipman? 2 A If I remember -- I l 3 Q If you recall Aufdenkampe asking you if you would-4 take exception to the-fact that the data that he has tends 1 5 to support that earlier verification, whatever.it was. 6 A Well,' I mean, that -- that's what-it says;here. i 7 Do I remember him saying that to me?' - i 1 8 Q Do'you remember him asking you'if you -- if you i j' 9 took exception to that? i . 10 A Not really. 2 ) 11 Q 'Okay. Based on what'you knew or what wasLin your l- 12 mind, it seems that-you would -- probably would have take
- 13 exception to that at that point --
! 14 A I would -- ' ( ' l 15 Q -- is that correct? t ,' i 16 A Yeah. I was not -- I was not. convinced -- I was
- j. 17 not convine'ed that we had proven that we.what were going to~ '
( 18 say was a correct statement. You know, I came into this i 19, with data saying that what we said'before was -- before was i 20 false and that what we were saying now was' false'even though 21 we changed it a little bit and added the words: comprehensive ~ 22 test program. I-23 We-said that whatever'we were saying now would-i 4- 24 'still have been true on 4/9, so to me,Tre were going to'say 25 the same thing again. You know,'to me, the intent of what i
- ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters ?. 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 J ^
~ . . . ,
~
91 1 we -- of what we were doing was we were going to repeat what ! we had said on 4/9. Different words, but, according to Mr. l 2 i 3 Bockhold, the,same'-- the same meaning -- the same facts 4 that would've been true then, and we were going to say it , 5 again. And there was no data -- there was no data that we had the that proved the new way we-were going to word'this 6 7 was correct. We had the data that brought-it-into question 1 8 and we - and we went forward without any data that proved' ; 9 it correct. j 10 You know, we are talking.about'a. nuclear power i 11 . plant, you know, and sworn statements to the NRC, you know, 12 licensee event reports, confirmation of actien letters. We , 13 are talking about a plant that has a philosophy of attention 14 to detail, you know, and we preach attention co detail, and, 15 you know, yet we're going to, you know, come up with wording i j 16 ! by Mr. McCoy, Mr. Bockhold, Mr. Shipman, and we're not going l 17 to use the log, you know, or we're going to use -- you know, 18 we're not going to -- we're not going to verify this; we're , 19 not going to do the good attention-to-detail action that I 20 would've been nuclear practice. ! 21 Q And so is the reason perhaps that you didn't'take ; 22 exception to what Aufdenkampe was saying was that you didn't 23 have the absolute data to show that it was, in fact, false 1 i 24 or is it just that you were going with unverified 25 statements? i l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. ; Court Repcrters ' 1612 K Street, N.W.. Suite 300 Washington. O. 20006 l (202) :- :*950 l
. t 92 , 1 A Larry, you have to realize that it'-- at this. " 2 point -- okay -- I'm a whistle-blower. Okay? I--- 3- Q On April 19th? J
-i 4 A Yeah.
5 Q' Okay. 1 6' A1 I've already gone to the NRC with allegations of i i 7 -wrongdoing. '! 8 Q Right. 9 JL Okay?- I have' initiated an OI investigation.of a 10 separate issue.that eventually.resulted in findings of 1 11 wrongdoing. Okay? i 12 Q -Right. 13 A I have begun already to suspect that my. management' 14 is discriminating against me, okay,- based on'a' variety.of; 15-conversations, you know, possible changes in' jobs,~ . you: know, 16 and statements that I need to get out,.okay,.and-that I
~
i7 can't conform. Okay. So I'm~already ---I'm alr3ady under i 18 suspicion. I'm a whistle-blower'and I" feel I'm-under 19 suspicion.: 20 Now, I'm torn -- I'm torn between doing the right 21 thing -- well,.and let's add one more thing. I'm so I l 22 l
. suspicious-of what my management is doing to me and in its -!
23 communications with the NRC thats I'm documenting on tape-
"{
24 recordings. Okay, I'm that suspicious, you know, that?I'm? ! 25
-- I' feel threatened -- I feel personally threatened that I ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters , 1612 K Street,1N.W., Suite 300 ; Washington, D.C. 20006 i j (202)-293-3950
93 i 1 need to have a record, you know, of what actually occurred ' 2 that I'm documenting it on tape-recordings. 3 So I'm torn -- I'm torn between further exposing 4 myself, okay, to do the right thing and' correct and object l 5 vehemently, you know -- I'm torn between, you know, doing 6 that , and further exposing myself as a whistle-blower, giving 7 management further rationale to take more adverse action 8 against me. I'm torn between that. So.what'-- so what I f
- 9 say and-to the degree with whichLI object, okay, is ' i s
10 controlled because of the unique predicament that I'm in and 11 my fear that if:I become even more of a troublemaker here 12 and keep them.from getting~this LER out and telling them -- ' 13 ; tell them that made a -- making -- you know, telling in a - 14 more direct way that they're making a false statement to the 15 NRC, I'm exposing myself, you know, more, and I'm fearful. 16 Q Okay. j 17 COURT REPORTER: Can I take a -- 1 18 MR. ROBINSON: Sure. It's now 1:18, and we're off 19 the record for a short break. 20 [ Recess, 1:18 - 1:28 p.m.] 21 MR. ROBINSON: Okay. It is now 1:28, and'we're 22 back on the record. 23 BY MR. ROBINSON: 1 24 Q Mr. Mosbaugh, I want to continue with the 25 telephone call that we were just discussing. l i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reperters 1612 K Street. N W., Suite 300 Washingten. : 2. 20006 (202) ;-- i:-50 l
i - I i i I 94 I
- 1 - A. okay. t
.i 2 Q.
And go ahead and make any comments.regardingithat j 3 call that are' appropriate =. 4 4 A Right. -We were - .
\
we were talking about my'taking _ 5 exception -- started off talking about my taking. exception 6 to-anything that Mr ' Shipman were -- saying or wording that 7' was finalized and going-to go in. ! 8 Q. No,.I think -- I'think the question.was - - 9 A' To support that data'. ; Okay.~- ! 10 ' Q Au'fdenkampe was -- Aufdenkampe was stating.his. l t 11 basis for accepting the wording that.was created in the -- !
.12 in the earlier phone call.-
13 A well, yeah, . he ; stated 1the ' basis and he~ said-. i
)
14 somebody had validated that data and.that was what. George 15 presented and the data that's been' offered to:us -- and ! 16 whatever he meant by that is -- does not bring.us to-17 question that. Okay? And then -- 1B Q' He asked you if you'd,take exception -- 19 A It says tends to support that data,.would you take 20 exception to that one, and I don't. recall him saying that, 21 but'I~ don't recall answering that'either. And I was 22' describing the dilemma'of being, you know,-torn between, you 23 know, saying there's:something suspic'ious going on~here,. 24 what'are we trying to do,':make false statements to'the NRC,. 25 and at.the!same time not wantingLto make false' statements te ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. i Court Reporters 1612 K Street,-N.W., . Suite 300 ;
; Washington, D.C. 20006 .{'
1202) 293-3950 i _ _ _ . =. .__.z. , . . _ _
-.u.. . j
d W
~
W
~ 95 l' the NRC. Okay?' And in my status of.being a whistle-blower ,
- i. 2 !
already at that time'.and already.being -- fearing,that 3-
-discrimination'was occurring against me and fearing that.
4 more might happen, and so I guess, you know,Eline 17 on'page? 5 26 is the way I resolved that. I 6 And'you said I didn't'- 'I said'I didn't respond 7 to taking exception to that -- well, actually,..you know, B when I look'at the transcript, tnis ~is -- this is ny answer. j
,9 okay?. And, you know, what,I say -- page 26, line'17 - -.when:
10 you read it to me that way,-Bill, when you talk about'the 11 comprehensive test program, you know, I. kind of set'the 12 - philosophy ior that down here, is that - is that we would 13 do -- I'm sorry -- is that: we would' have ' a' test program' to, 14 you know, determine root cause and' restore operability, and, 15 you know, that kind of sounds like what I talked about down 16 here on our diesel test program, .and it sounds like that is 17~ kind of establishing a starting point, you know,'at least at-18 the point in time after which we did the UV. test. . Okay?- 19 So I'm responding and saying, you know -- and you 20 have to read between the lines 'cause I'm not tryinglto
. 21 outright say you're lying. .Okay? .I'm saying that.the<
22 comprehensive test program, the way you describe it in 23' there, Bill.-- Shipman -- is you're describing about a point-24 in time that I'm saying is the point in. time afterLwhichtwe~ 25 'did the UV testing.a Okay? Well, the point in time after we .. ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202):293-3950 :
.j
7 4
'96 1
did the UV testing, you can't count 18 cnr 19 starts af ter.: 2 that time. Okay? 3 Q But does Bill know that at that time? 4 A Well, I don't know. 5- Q Okay. 6 A Okay?' But the UV testing -- there's not thatLmany 7- starts. -Okay? There's not that many starts after we did: 8 the .UV. '_ testing. _And what I'm trying to say is that.-- you 9 know, as best I can'without sayingilt, you-know,~ point'- 10-blank, is that, you know, the comprehensive test program 11 ends with the UV testing, in which case.I don't think
.12 there's is starts, 'cause that UV test.-- and we could look 13 at the data,-but it seems like.it-- .you.know, it's fairly 14 far into the sequence.
15 Q Well, and that particular point, it may not be 16 right at the UV test, but it's'right prior to the 17 operability test. 18- A~ It's right before the operabilit'y, right. 19 Q Was described in the revision to the'LER when -- 20 in that cover letter they said Georgia' Power ~said there~were-21 only'10 in 12 successful starts at that point. 22 A Right. And then -- and, you know -- and then the~ ~23-
,next thing -- you know, the n' ext thing that happens here is-24 that, you knsv,' Shipman says,'well - he wants to add one 25 more additional fact. Okay? And this is on page 27.: And ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters. 1612 K Street, !: W., suite 300 Washingtor., ; 2. 20006
- (202) --
950
,7._
1 r 97 l' I then he starts saying that there's been.a' call placed to Ken.
'I F
'2 Brockman to-clarify,this. okay? So,1you know,'what -
'l l
Shipman's doing is he's twisting thelsite arm here to buy 1 t. 41 into this by informing John Aufdenkampe and'myselfsthat, i l 5 peah,'we ~-- Ken McCoy just bounced this off Brockman and'he 1 6 has no problem with-'it, you know, so.' don't worry about
- it,.-
- 7-you know,2we.just bounced this offLthe NRC. ' And he's'using 8
[ ~ that as an' additional way,to get~a site. buy-in, and so'he-9 l adds that, you . know, right' ~ here'.1 Now,"we~ don't know what. ! 10 1 the extent of that. discussion,~you-know,'with~Brockman was-11 and, you'know, what Brockman's been. told at all, but that's 12 being added.in'as an additional.l selling point.. 13
.And so, you know,.with that1-- Il guess at.mhat 1 14 point this conversation then. changes aLlittle. bit,>and= Jim; 15 Swartzwelder.comes in. And' Jim Swartzwalder starts relaying 16 some Pat Mcdonald comments, and so apparently Pat Mcdonald 17 has reviewed this LER and' Jim Swartzwelder.is forwarding.
. 18' those' comments, you know. For(example, on page 2
'9, line'll:
19 the second place'-- Jim -- that Pat had a comment ~was.onLthe 20 description of the event; and-line 20': Pat's concern is we 21 opened an issue there and nowhere in'the LER do.we close it . 22 by saying these were invalid alarms. And there's-a good bit 23 of detailed discussion here aboutl Pat's comments on the LERL 24 between Swartzwelder:and~ Shipman. . 25 Q Yeah, I believe there's something in there'about ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES,.LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W.,. Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
~
98 1 him indicating it's the RCS and not the Corps. j 2 A Yeah. Yeah, I remember that.
- 3. Q But at that point Shipman and Stringfellow are of 4
the mind that they're going to go ahead and use the language 5 with respect to the diesel counts and the comprehensive 6 control test program that was suggested earlier? : 7 A Yeah. What -- well, yeah. .What happens here is 8 that -- is that -- and we -- you can go through the whole .
- 9 transcript and you can see that there's no discussion of
-10 well, let's reword the LER to say this -- okay -- or 4
11 whatever. There's no -- no revision of this LER occurs on ) 12 this call.- But, yes, Shipman leaves this call with the l 13 intention of sending it out with the.words that were 4 14 introduced into the call -- or introduced into the LER on 4 15 ; the previous call, the one that Shipman and McCoy and , 16 Bockhold and Hairston, et cetera, participated in. I And, i 17 yeah, and that's the way the LER_goes out when it's actually 18 signed. 19 Q Is there any other comments that you want to make I 4 20 regarding that final phone call on the 19th? 21 A Yeah, I -- just one other thing, you know,-and I'm I j 22 mentioning Pat Mcdonald's comments here for a specific ; 23 reason, but, you know, the -- all the references-to Pat is 24 Pat Mcdonald. In fact, on page 28, line 11, John says, I 25 want to go over Pat Mcdonald's comments with him, so, you 4 ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reecrters 1612 K Street, s W., Suite 300 Washington. ~ 0. 20006 i i (202) ; - 950 nv-- --w- -
}
- 99 ;
1 know, the Pat we're talking about is Pat Mcdonald. , 2 Q. And you might as well point out that specific l 3 reason, the reason that you're highlighting,those comments' ! }' 4 ?right at this point. i 5 A Yeah. s Well, the reason why I bring that'tgris ' 6 that in the deposition in my Department. of Labor proceeding - j
- - 7 . .
i i that was taken of Pat Mcdonald on-about----seems like it'was- ; i 8 around September 17th of 1990, my attorney, ' Mike Kohn,-. , 9
- . asked Pat' Mcdonald his. role in reviewing this LER, the.LER-10 '!
about the site air emergency and the diesel generator and - ' j- 11 ~specifically the diesel generator. ! [ 12 And he was asked if he had ever read it. He was-13
-asked if he had ever read it or reviewed it before it'was t
j 14 signed out. He was asking what his role was, if-he'had-ever ; 15 l commented on it, and what his role was in preparing and '; } 16 ! revising and -- there was a multitude of questions asked, ' 17 and in the responses in his depositionLPat Mcdonald 4 18 l t 4 indicated that he had never seen the LER before it was j 19 i t signed out, that he had no role whatsoever in' commenting,- 20 i i-revising, writing, preparing, et cetera,'this LER. And the ' 4 21 l facts as evidenced by Pat Mcdonald's comments being , 22 forwarded through Swartzwelder and discussed with[ Shipman ' 23.. d and Aufdenkampe indicates that'the responses in that 4- 24 - deposition are false. I 25 Q I now have some additional questions that I'm i
- , ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
i- Court Reporters ; 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 ' i w w , --- er . , ,-, - , , . -r-,--.em -w -ew-r,--- +yr w-
J
~
100 , 1 going to put to you reysrding certain specific areas of ! 2 these two transcripts that we've gone over before, so as I - 3 - as I mention the page number and the line number -- let's * , 4 go back to the transcript of tape number 57, which is also~ i i ' 5 referred to as Exhibit Number 36. . 6 I believe we've touched on this before. Look at 7 page 62, line 10, and page 63, line 13. Evidently you were 8 referring to a comment given;to John Aufdenkampe at a PRB 9 meeting. 'And I'll give you a minute to review that.- 10 . [ Witness reviews document.) 11 Q Can you put that in context a little bit for us 12 from your review of the transcript? ! 13 A I need to look a little further. 14 Q Okay .' And the basic question here.is.the role 15 that you played in the evolution'of the draft LER prior to ' 16 April 19th. ! 17 l (Witness reviews document.] 18 Q And I'll further clarify the question in that 19 there appears to be, I guess, in the two cites that I~just 20 gave you: page 62, line 10, and page,63, lire 13, you , 21 apparently are familiar with comments in the PRB meetings. 22 regarding this LER. And then at page-106,'line 16, you 23
- I 1.
appear surprised or, you know, you indicated that you didn't ; 24 think -- you appear surprised at language that appearsd in 25 the LER, and I think we've touched on this.- I believe -- I l . 4 l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 i
4 i i i. ' l i i 101 l 1 believe this last cite is in your' phone call with 1 2 Stringfellow and Shipman where Shipman'was asking how it got-
- l 3 through the PRB. )
4 A Right.
- 5- Q -And you -- ;
6 MR. KOHN: 'Al? j 7 THE~ WITNESS: Yeah. ! j 8 MR. KOHN: .Are you reviewing a document? , 9 DUE WITNESS: . Yeah, I am. -
-r j 10 BY MR. ROBINSON:
4
; 11 Q I guess'the overall question is, again,Lwhat was 12 the detail of your involv'ement in the evolution of the draft -r l
1 13 LER? ' '. 14 A Okay. All right. i On -- I think what'we've got - r
- 15 here is the PRB meeting that I was talking about, and it
) 16 looks like it did happen on the morning of-the 19th. I' i
- 17 Q Okay.
, i 18 A Okay? And this is the meeting that I-came in late ) [ 19 to. Okay? 1 g 20 Q All right. 21 A And this is -- when I come into the meeting, 22 they're on -- they're on'and discussing the LER. Okay? a 23 And, you know, I say here did you correct the diesel starts? ; 24 I had given John a comment on that. Okay? That's.the - - ! i i 25 that's the statement. i j ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. i a Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, I . 20006 { (202) : L '- 950 ' i
l 1 102 l 1 Right. i Q 1 2 A l So when I. entered the PRB meeting in the middle of l 3 their review -- in fact, you know, Skip's talking about.the ! 4 revision from 16 to 8~pages and so forth. I asked a I
- 5. question about the diesel starts. Okay7 And then John 6 explains to me that there had been a comment in the minutes l 7 to either verify it or get it out, and he.says that's what 8
we're actually doing -- okay.-- either. verify the sentence, i 9 ' reword the sentence, or delete'the sentence. You know, that-10 had been the comment on the LER from the previous day, from 11 the 18th. 12 Q Roughly, ballpark figure, how many PRBs.did you 13 i attend that this LER was'at least addressed? 14 A Three or four. 15 Q And it went from 16 pages to -- 16 A 16 pages to 8 pages. It was.a complete rewrite 17 when it went from 16 to 8, then it: came back to the PRB, and 18 then -- I can't recall if we reviewed it once or twice at ; 19 that stage, and then -- I de' remember that I think on the i 20 18th it came to the PRB for review and.just said the diesel 21 had been started several times. , 22 Q And so you had been. making comments regarding this 23 -- 24 A ~ Well, I hadn't been necessarily making. comments, 25 but there had been comments made in the PRB. Like I said, I ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
t 103 1 think Lackey was the one that had made the comment about -- I The comment.that it be given to John? 2 Q ' 3 A to add some specific. numbers 1in there.
~
Okay?' i 4 Q You think that's the comment you're talking about, 5 that one right there at, like, page 62?
- 6 A Yeah. I.think -- I think what we're. talking about !
7 is did you correct.the diesel starts, and.I think what we're 8 talking about -- well, John says what he understood me.to
~
- 9 say, he said that we had a comment and the comment was to.
10 either. verify the sentence, reword the, sentence,'or delete 11 the sentence. Okay? And I don't know if-he's talking about i 12' the effort to add the specific number from the just several 13 or if he's talking about .erify the sentence ---that's the 14 20 -- reword the sentence, or' delete the sentence. f' don't. 15 know, but -- you know, which evolution he is talking about, 16 but -- and, you know, John -- well, we must have the 20.-- 17 at that point I think somebody is proposing the 20, and I 18 think John's people proposed 20, and that's the effort that 19 came from Webb and Odom. Okay? 20 Q Right. f 21 A And then John is going to go out -- this is line 22 17 and 18. John is going to go out and either. verify it or 4 23 take those numbers out. Okay? Okay. And take out the 24 wording that says there was no -- that basically says no 2 25 failures or problems. Okay?' So anyway, there's still -- it. i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N W., Suite 300 Washington - C. 20006 (202) ;- 1950
E E. I 4 104 1 looks like in that meeting there's.still some discussion ) 2-about what we're going to put in there, you know, whether or. j. a 3 not we're going to take out no problems or failures. Okay?' . I 4 Q Okay. And now go to page 106,;11ne 16. 5 A All right. Do you want to do <nt -- you had? ! 6 something on page 63. 7 Well, on page 63, line 13, what were they -- what 1 1 Q 1 8 was he talking about there? 9 A Okay. Skip -- well, he's saying we could verify j Elo the 20 and John picked _that up as an action item. They're )
- 11 kind of. describing to me maybe some things;that I missed. i I
( 12 don't -- I don't know. 13 Q Okay. 14 A He's going to verify it, wrong or not. If.it's 15 wrong, we'll take it out. George -- now,:this is George ; 16 Fredericks -- pointed out that there was.a failure right 17 .; after the maintenance work on it. So that's' George i 18 t Fredericks, apparently, and the PRB has brought up that l 19 there was a -- that he's aware of a failure, : okay, a { 20 postmaintenance failure. 21 Q And then evidently at page 106, line 16 -- and I 22 i seem to remember this from your conversation with shipman l 23 t and Stringfellow where there -- Shipman was asking, you 24 know, how'd this thing get through the PRB, and did you make ' 25 some kind of comment'that you didn't think that language was-i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 I
t 105 l 1 in the LER or something like that? e 2 A Yeah. Well, what I -- what I.said was, you know, 3 how the world did it get through the PRB, and then,.you-i 4 know, we say.the statement in the LER -- ! 1 5 Q Okay. Shipman said that, right, how in the world. : 6 -- l . l 4 7 A Yeah, yeah. He's -- ! f 8 Q' -- did it get throughL the PRB? Okay. ! 2 9 A You know, what's. happening is Shipman'is -- I'm , , 10 questioning -- I'm questioning.this wording with Shipman. ; 11 'Q Right. i 12 A I'm bringing up the failures toLShipman's s. 13 attention,.and shipman then is reflecting.back to;the site ' 14 saying, well, site, you know, how the hell-did.this get into -l r 15
- this LER, and he's a little bit casting blame, you know, !
,16- -back to the site.
t i 17 Q Right. t 1 18 A Okay? ; And so I try to clarify.what he's talking 4 i 19 about, and he says the LER, and then. Shipman says that data t t { 20 was not available in -- that data was not available in the 21 PRB. Okay? j "z2 Q Is that a question or? 1 23 A That's a qdestion. 1 i 24 Q ' That data was not available in the PRB?' ! i 25 A Right, right. i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006' (202) 293-3950 t s- ,
106 , 1 Q And what -- j 2 A And so what -- and what I think he's referring to i ) 3 is the data, that is,'those trips that I just told him- ! 4 about. Okay? l 5 Q Oh. Okay. l I l 6 A The trips -- you know, you have to look at where ! L 7 we were. ; 8 Q Yeah. -
\
9 A I've just -- right here -- right cx1 the previou's i 10 page. It was on 3/23 -- and let me find it, I think'we've 11 got another one -- it was on 3/23 at 7:13. The machine 12 tripped on low jacket water. Okay? And so nowfI've given1 13- him the second trip,.the second data, the 3/23 at a 14 particular time and it tripped on low jacket water pressure, 15 turbo lube oil precsure low. Okay? And then he says the 16 first one we had was on what date. And so now he's kind'of 17 -- I think he's probably writing them down. And I tell him 18 two -- or 3/22. 19 Q Right. 20 A Okay. And then the very next thing he says is how 21 the world did it get through the PRB with that data.-- right 22 there -- how, you know, with that data that I just gave him. 23 I think it's been through the PRB a couple of times; how the-24 world did it get through the PRB7 25 Q And -- okay. And your response -- ANN RILEY f ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Rep:rters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington. O. 20006 (202) ;-- '950
s - _ _. . . . _ . , _ _ _ - _ - 107 1 A Okay. And_then~he'says thatLdata was not i 2 available in the PRB. Okay? And then I start 1 going through- ! 3- the history as I.know it as to how the LERLwas revised.in . 4 the'PRB, and-I say the. previous time it went.through the. l l 5 PRB,:I'minottsure,1f'those statements were inithere. Okay?i
'6 And that's -- and the previous-time that this went.through> a
,- 7 the PRB -- okay -- I'm' thinking'at_this point abouti--.I' 8' ' guess-I'm. thinking about the'leth. 'Okay? 9- .Q 'Okay. j l 10 A Because the last time that:this went through the j l'
.11.
PRB'-- and I guess I'm not thinking.about this' morning. Is , 12 .that,what you're getting at'or? 13 No. Q When you sayLthe statements were not in there
~
14 -- i 15 A Right. 16 t Q ,
-- to me, you're meaning that.the statements about 17 greater than 20.were not in there.
18 A Right. 19 Q Okay. 20 A Yeah, I am -- I am'-- I believe I'm referring to 21 the^20, okay, were the statements. And -- but Ifalso think 22 I'm referring to the 18th, not the morning's PRB. Okay? 23 Q But did you really not think those~ statements were 24 -in there or? 25 A No, I knew -- well, we. knew that I was in the PRB ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W.,-Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
d 108 1 on the -- l
- 2 Q 18th.
3 A On the 19th. - 4 Q Yeah. J 5 A Okay. On the 18th they weren't. The 18th is when
'6 the comment -- it was the day before that the comment was ,
made to add something.
- 7 t
As far as I remember the evolution ; ] 8 in the PRB, on the'18th - and I had -- you know, I've only' J 9 just through the discussions over time been able to remember 10 which one was the 18th and'the 19th. ( 11 Q Sure. I 12 A But on the 18th the LER didn't have any numbers in- 1 13 it, and a comment was made to add numbers, by Lackey. Okay? 14 And then I think on'the 19th is when the revision that added , 15 the numbers got introduced and was reviewed in'the PRB i- ! 16 manual. 17 Q But then Stringfellow -- I mean, you were saying ' 18 that you didn't think the statements were in there and 19 Stringfellow says, oh, yes, they were, or something like i 20 that. ) 21 A Yeah, yeah. I said the previous time that this 22 4 went through the PRB -- and I'm -- I believe I'm referring , 23 to the 18th -- I'm not sure the previous time. Okay? 24 Q Right. , 25 A And since we had a PRB that morning, I think-I'm 4 ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. _ Court Reporters 1612'K Street, !; W., Suite 300 1 Washingte.. *
. 20006 (202) .-- i950
~_. . --
i l l 109-
. referring to the 18th. Okay? I'm.not sure iflthose.
- 1 0
2 statements'were in there, and Jack'says,Lyeah, they were. 3 .And I say,'they were? And he saystyeahh and then~he says,. ! C 4 the last~PRB.added the_ parenthetical phrase more than 20 'l ' 1 Lt imes each. 1 5 I say, the'last -- not today but~theLprevious. d 6 PRB -- I don't think the PRB on the 18th added '- well, the 7 PRB~on the-18th.added the comment;to add' numbers,.but I'
~
8- don't believe'the PRB on the 18th. adde'd'the-numbers.~- l 9 'Q Okay., i 10 A' Does that':-- 11 -Q' That - - 12 A I mean.-' O 13 'Q Yeah. And you don't recallL-- youLdidn't: recall' 14 - ' at the time you were making that comment.that those ; 15 statements, whatever they were, okay, were'inLthere? ! 16 A No. 17 Q What -- you know, what -- the question is, you. 18 know, if -- obviously.if-you were -- if you.were'so; 19 intimately involved.with the development of this -- of this 20 LER and you were aware.of the fact that, hey,;they're taking 21 the' April 9th statement and adding to it and'that type of 22 thing, then -- 23 A Well, that - 'again, remember Larry, that adding. 24 to the April 9th statement occurred after this conversation. 25 See -- oh, you're talking about Aufdenkampe's adding to it? l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.- ! Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 ,
' Washington, D.C. 20006 .j (202) 293-3950 i 1 - _ . . . - . . . . .. _ . _ . . _. _ . . . . . ~ . . . . - - . . . , _ . . - - - , - - . . - - ~
E 110 1 .Q Yeah, I'm talking about the PRB adding to it. 3
- 2 A Oh,. okay. j The taking the statement from the April 9th letter l
3 Q l 4 Lthat said 18 or 19 and saying,-yeah,'we:got-2 more'since ! 5 then, we're going to -- we'll make it greater.than that or-f
'6 greater than 20.
^
7- A Right.' That -- 8 Q Okay. 9 A Yeah, that's John's --'that was< John's rationale. 10 Q That had been in there - that had been in the LER 11 since it was reduced:to eight pages;-right? ] 12 .A No. . 13 Q- That kind of language?J 14 A No, no. 15 Q No, it hadn't been? l 16 A No. It was reduced to eight pages and the eighth > 17 page rewrite said the diesel's been started several times. 18 Q Since March 20th? 19 A Since the event -- you know, we:can'look in -- you 20 can looklat the -- I wish we had the actual' revs, but at. 21 eight pages I believe it said -- still said several times. 22 okay?. I believe'that on'the 18th'a comment was'made by 23 Lackey --'and,'you know, this all ought to be reflected in~ 24 the PRB meeting minutes. 25 Q Right. ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters. 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
l 1 111 1 A Okay. I believe that on the lath a comment war ; 1 2 made by Lackey, add a specific number; don't put several in, ! 3 add a specific number. I.believe that on the 19th that-the .j 4 number 20 was added by Aufdenkampe from Webb-Odom review'to ! 5 - . based on a basis of adding two to'what had been used on , 6 April'the 9th.
-l 7 Q So it would've.been added at that PRS that you 8 were late to -- ,
9 A Yes. 10 Q -- on the 19th? 11 A That's what I -- that's what my recollection is. 12 You know, I mean, if you're trying to --- i i 13 Q Okay. l 14 A If you're trying to develop the history of it,'you 15 know, let's get the PRB meeting minutes out and it should 16 all be recorded. 17 Q Well, I guess the only -- the only reason for this 18 question is to, you know, to just establish your degree-of 19 involvement in the PRB, and evidently to the reader of that 20 transcript for the first time and without any background -- 21 a lot of background information, there appeared to be a 12 conflict. You seem to be' aware of what kind of comments 23 were going into that LER on page -- what -- 62 and 63, and 24 then on page 106, you know, you weren't sure whether those - 25
- whether certain comments or statements were in the LER or j ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N W., Suite 300 Washington. ; 2. 20006 (202) I'- '950
- j. . .d!
e i; !' y
, 112 !
1 not. .And.I don't know -- 2 'A Well,Et he only thing -- d 4 3 Q '-- I guess I'll justxlet:you answer that in your ..- 4 J, 4- own words and we'll move on. ' 5 A Okay. - I mean, you know,!the only thing ~about.I'm.. .; 6
'not surelof those statements, you know;.and what I mean here; 4
7 is the use'of the specific-number 20'. Okay? I'm notisurel - j 1 o i 8
- you know, the. previous 1 time this went out through theEPRB, '
i
.9 .which I - ,which.I think, youlknow,;I'm referring to as<the.
.j a
j 10- lath,-the' meeting of the 18th,'I'm notLsure that tthose: { 11
~
statements'were 1n'there.. And,. you know;Lthen Jack.says,
- 12 ,
. Lyes, they were, and then'he~says thatLthe last -- he.says
- 13 4
the'last'PRB, and not ihe ---and he says'nottthe;one'today but 'the one - the previous P7ul -- and I guessihe's - t' 14 i 15 referring also to the one on the 18th. He's'saying -- he.
- 16 says.that it added the one -- that one~added the more than' 4
- 17 20 times each.
= 18-5 Ncati my recollection is that -- and my.
i
- -19 recollection at this-time and'still t.oday 'cause.I haven't:
1 j 20 had the opportunity to look at'the PRB meeting minutes and ! 1 21 see-if maybe I'm a day off. Maybe it was the:17th'and not-t 4 22 the 18th. But my recollection is is that the'PRB'on the 23 ~18th was the one in which Lackey commented to add some*
. 24 !
specific.numbersfand that"the PRBLon the 19th is;the'PRB. ;
'when.the. number 20 was approved to'be'~in.there.
m 4 l-
- ~ ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
-Court Reporters. i
- 1612 10 Street, N.W., Suite 300
' Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 f
-. - ~ -. . . . . - . . , . -- .. .
Z s R , , 1 [ _ l113. 1 .Q Okay -
. u
-2' Ai ' Okay?; And - -well,.you.know,;I guess there's not much more to say.
13 I
- 4 Q- .Right. All right. . Okay. -Look at page 91, line 7 }
l I 5: where you and John were identifying-the problems on.theJB-l' i . 6- machine. f. 4 - -
- 7. :A Right. .I 2: -
?!
8 ? . Q- At this point'in time you.were relying.on'the j 9' .Kochery111st; 'is that correct?l 10; A Yes. 11 :Q JDo you know if that'Kochery list,waslprovided to 12 the Chafee. team? 4 I mean, you.may make a statement.in there
- 13 that it was.
i ). 14- A. 1 Yeah, yeah.. I madeia - -I made-a couple _of' !- 15 ! statements.along the:way in these transcriptsc- .and'nct 'l ! 16 just this day but in a couple ~of other situations -- where I
- - 17 r said that's.been provided'to the Chafee
- team or Al Chafee
- j. is has that or the NRC knows-this or the NRC has:the.samt 19 information as we do, and a variety of different? things that 20 I said'like that. And let me tell you, you know, what I -
1. ! 21 knew and what I said and~why I said what I said.- ! j j 22 Q Okay. l d , . 23 A I was trying in some of those statements.to put 24 some pressure on_various individuals that I-was speaking to 25 ; 1 to be very careful and to correct, if they thought' ! l l - ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. I Court Rep rters l 1612 K Street, N W., Suite 300' i
- Washington; I r. 20006
'(202) I '. - a50' i' ,
i
m - 114 1 necessary,'any of these statements -- okay.- .by hinting 2 .that NRC's!on to this, NRC has this, NRC has that. I was-3- trying my beat in a -- in ---~as~a whistle-blower role, in-a
.4 nonobvious way - okay~-- to effect a degree of caution and.
5 clarification and honesty -- okay -- by saying'some of those 6- things. I 1 7 t Now, the only?--'the onlyffirst-hand knowledge,I. . .
,j 8 had of -- that-I'can remember -- of:what list'had beenlgiven 9
to the Chafee team or whatever -- I didn't give any list'to L10 the Chafee team. Okay? 11 Q Right. 12 A I I-believe that John Aufdenkampe told me'at some -l 13 point that he had given some list to the Chafee team,,andLso 14 all those statements that were made -- and we canLflag 15 whichever ones they were -- were based on the kEowledge that 16 either it was a statement.made to caution people,' but --'or. 3 17 whatever, but it was based on the' limited firsthand 1
'l 18 knowledge on my part that John Aufdenkampe told me that.he I i
19 i or one person in his group had given a list of; starts to l 20 Chafee. ~Okay? I l 21 Q Okay'. 22 A And there's no'--'there'sino more basis on my par: 23 than that knowledge. Okay?' i 24 Q Okay. And -- ' l 25 A Does that -- I
. ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. !
Court Reporters 1612,K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 ; (202) 293-3950
I l [
.)
115 i 1 Q But -- yeah, that answers my question. ' 2 A And there was -- and there was a degree of intent l 3 on my part to say some of those things to try to'-- try to i i 4 keep people honest, as a way -- as a way of' indirectly ' 5 influencing this process. 6 Q I guess the question that pops up in my mind is: 7 if you're already identified as being a whistle-blower at. 8 that time; right? ' 9 A Well, I think I am. , 10 Q Well, I mean -- okay. So you -- 11 ! A It's my belief that I am. ' 12 Q This is after you filed with DOL; right? 13 A No, no. I have yet to file with DOL. 14 l Q I thought -- now, this is -- this~is April 19th; ! 15 right? 16 'A No. I have yet to file -- I don't file with DOL 17 until June the 4th. 1B Q That's right. Okay. So you're thinking you're. ' 19 identified as a whistle-blower from the dilution valve? 20 A Yes, sir, most definitely. j l 21 Q Okay. That obviates my question because my 22 question was going to be: okay, if you're absolutely 22 identified as a whistle-blower, why are you even worried 24 about being subtle, you know,'but obviously you're -- you 25 know, if you're -- you hadn't gone to Labor at that point l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. j Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
. . . .. . ._ _ . . _ _ . . ~ . . . . ._ ____ _ _ _
i i i-116' I ' 1. 1 and you_ thought you had been identified as a whistle-blower. l
.2 You -- yeah, okay.
- 3. A 'Well, you know, even if - .even=if it had been !
l' ., 4 after I had, you know,'directly, you know,-. filed an action -
- 5 - okay - I'm not, you_know, I'm not a troublemaker. Lokay? !
2 -
- ~~6 You know, . I'm not -- I'm not one to try to use'my whistle-
{ J J 7 blowing activity to create a disturbancefin the- ! 0 organization. ! 8 And,_you know, what we're talking about ~ -t 9 didn't happen after the point that I, you'know, went:public 4
- 10
]
as far as that's concerned with filing lwith'the.DOLj But, . l ) 11 you know, its s.-- it wouldn't.have been;my -- it wouldn't 12 have been my tack to do'-- to be,-you know,'confrontational. 1 i )
- j. 13 Okay? You know, I try my best to, you know, do what'I
^ 14 1 could, you know,.in an indirect way h'ere as much as I<could. 1 4 1 15 Q Look at page 91, line 13.- And the quantion~is: 0 16 what type of verification did Tom Webb providetat the -- 17- I'll let you answer-that.two ways. -What' type of 1 . .i { 18 verification did Tom.Webb provide before-the LER went ou27 4
- 19 A Before.the LER'went out, I'm not aware that Tom i-
- 20 Webb completed and verified anything as.far as'the task he j- 21 was sent out to do, you know.
I got. Tom Webb out reviewing 22 their reactor operator laws and counting, that Odom 23 statement. I -- it never -- no knowledge came back to me t
- 24 that he had ever. completed his task and that he'had verified 25 anything.
t I - ANN RILEY &' ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters '
]
-i 1612 K Street', N.W., ~ Suite 300 j
_ Washington..:.0. 20006 (202) .-- sr50-T ,
< \
. .- .. . . - _ . . . . , , ,. ,, m, ,I
117. 1 Q: And, .taa your- knowledge, ~did Tom. Webb' ever complete 2 his verification and produce'a document',.a verification-3 type document? 4 A. He never produced-a document that' verified that. 5 what was in the LER was correct, because'whatiwas in' the LER 6 was false. 7 Q. Did he1ever produce a list of. starts from the 4 8 operator's logs,.to your knowledge? 9 A .I recall there being a. Tom Webb list at oneitime,, 10 and I~can't recall if that was.something that he.had done 11 preliminarily before the LER went out or it was something 12 that he finished after the LER went out. I do recall there i 13 being a Tom Webb list. Okay? .But I just for the life of me 14 can't -- I can't remember if it was a preliminary list 15 before or a list afterwards, but in either case he never 16 produced a list that verified.these statements that were-17 made were correct. is Q Did you ever have in your possession a Tom Webb 19 list? 20' A I may have, but I don't know. I'just -- 21 Q Do you remember what you did with it? 22 A No.
. 23 Q Look at page 95, line 11. . Same question with 24 respect to Odom's verification: before the LER went out, 25 what type of verification did Odom provide, if any?
ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street., N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293 3950
l 118 A Odom, .to my knowledge, provided no. verification 1-c 2 .other than that his employee, Tom Webb,-was working onidoing !~ l 3 'his' verification, reviewing.the logs.- Isdon't believe odom 4- was doing anything separate or independent.from Webb. He 5 was just the supervisor, and - you know,' . Aufdenkampe calls 6 odom, says verify, and odom says, Webb, go: verify, and Webb ! 7 goes out and tries to count starts out of control'roomTlogs. 8 Q Look.at page 97, line 2,, 2 and page 108 -- keep-
.9 that place and then go -- also look at page 108, line 2.
q 10 Page 97, line 22. 11 A Got it. 12 Q And'page 108,,line.2. And I think probably at'one 13 of'those-two points you make the statement, I will. verify 14 with Kochery, though. And the question ~is - other than'the 15 Kochery list that we have talked about extensively already 16 today, what type of verification did Kochery. provide? 17 A Okay. I went'-- after I talked to shipman and
-18 said, this is~the best information I have,.but I will verify 19 with Kochery, though -- and in here.I say, if'I may-see if I
- 20 can pull some of the diesel' stuff from Kochery.. Okay?. What l
21 I did is I went over to Kochery's office, as' we ' discussed in 22 an earlier portion of this transcript, and Stokes and 23 Kochery were there, and I talked to them about valid, you i i 24 know,:because shipman was throwing up -- you know,'trying to 25 use valid. l l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reperters 1612 K Street, NW , Suite.300 Washington, ! - 20006
'(202) :-- -50 l
J
I 1
?
119 1 And it's interesting,because the request that'came: i
~
2 from Shipman.for Hairston was to verify for George Hairston. l 3 that there.were 20 valid starts. Just, you know ---it's 'i' l 4 interesting. i l 5 Q Yeah, he did use the term valid. 'I remember that. 6- A Okay. ! But when he -- when he gave me my. i 7 assignment, you know, what he was trying to ck>, he said; ~ I B we're trying to verify for George Hairston that there were' ! l 9 20. valid starts, you know, like we say. Okay? So -- i 10 Q. That.may well have been -- 11 A So I don't know if.that was a misstatement or-a . 12 misintent or whatever, but,-you know,:I went over and talked ! 13 to Kochery. And, you know, it's a little hard with the 14 transcript to hear everything that I talked to Kochery and-15 Stokes about, but I went over and I' talked to them. I -- 16
- and I can't get you right.to a quote out of the transcript, 17 .i but my recollections is that I talked to them about, you 18 1
know, the list and how many valid starts we had and, you 19 i know, had a discussion with them to see if there was any new 20 information other than what he -- what I had seen from him-21 or what he had given me earlier in the day or the day before 22 when I got the Kochery list and found out for the first time 23 that on 2/22 and 2/23 we had diesel trips. 24
.So that's the verification I did. I verified with 25 Stokes and Kochery that my data to Shipman, that there had i
i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. L Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 t \ (202).293-3950 l
i I 120 ; 1 been those particular trips'-- and, of' course, those trips r 2 were right in the middle of the strings of counts -- that i
.i 3 that was good information and that the'y didn't'have any 4 better, further, or contradictory information. And so that .
5 was the verification I got from them, and basically it was, l 6 you know, that there was no -- that there was no new 7 information other than what, you know, they had given me. ! 8 Q Look at page 111,Llines 22 through 25. , l 9 A And just to add on that,.I will say on that, based' 10 on going to Stokes and Kochery and finding that there was 11 not any newer, better, or different or-contradictory 12 information, you know, I did not call'Hairston back and -- t 13 or Shipman back in Hairston's office, because,Jas I told 14 him, this is the best information that I know, and I found l p 15 nothing to contradict that. ' i , 16 .Q On page 111, line 22 through 25. 17 A Okay. i 1B , , Q The question is: .what information are you and ; 19 Kochery referring to? -i 20 i { Witness reviews document.] ' 21 A This.is the Kochery list. I 22 okay. ! Q That's the information that you're 23 referring to?' . l 24 A Yeah. This is the handwritten Kochery list of 25 one-liners on each diesel start. ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006
'(202) 293-3950 i
I i i 121~ t 1 Q All right. Now look at Exhibit 38,.which is tape 1
'2 58.. Look at'page 9, line 13. And the: question.is: i what: ,
3 did you mean.by your comment,: quote,'I don't-think they 4 better'look at those logs,. unquote. 5 A Okay. Yeah,,I got you. That is'a comment -- t 6 okay. You know, rightLthen and there,;as.you'can see,'right. 7 up on -- go right to the previous page, page 8,.line 22:- 8 from the numbers I present in'the conference, they were 9 verified correct by Jimmy Paul Cash, who went through'the 10 operator logs, And McCoy'says, you ought to use those 11 numbers. Okay? So.we'll say greater than those numbers you 12 used in the conference. And then McCoy says, those numbers: 13 you used in the conference were after they had~ completed the 14 comprehensive test of the control system on each diesel. 15 Bockhold said, that is correct, those numbers were not 16 before that time. 4 17 When I hear that -- when I' hear Mr. McCoy'say you 18 ought to use the numbers from the 4/9 presentation -- okay - 19
- I mean, as incredible as it sounds, I hear Mr. McCoy tell 20 that group in Birmingham that we're going to. repeat a false 21 statement.
You know, I mean, that -- I mean, that's'the way 22 I'm viewing it. Okay? I've gone'on the record with me and 23 Aufdenkampe and Stringfellow. They've acknowledged that the 24 4/9 presentation was false. Then separately I've gone to 25 Shipman and Shipman's acknowledged that the 4/9 presentation 1
)i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N,W., Suite 300 Washington. : . 20006 (202) ;- 3950
']
~
~
- 122. 1
( 1 'was false. 'Okay? b, 2 They knew it was false. 2 Okay? And now right , t j , 3 after that.I hear McCoy say, you'ought to use'the same' j i i-4 numbers that:you'-- that -- you ought'to just say the'same
- i i
5 thing again that you said'in the 4/9 presentation, and,Lyou . i 6 Eknow, we got this slightly different wording,?but we'say,- !
.I i 7 well -- Bockhold said this wording's the same, you:know, itL !
8 would've'been true then,.you'know, those numbers'I used in
'l 9 the conference, they were after they had completed'the 10 comprehensive test program on each diesel.
11 At that point.I'm hearing.-- I'm hearingLthat 12 they're going to repeat what they acknowledged to beia._ false ) 13 : statement, and they're -- you know, .it's --- to me,1I mean, - j 14 this is the crux of it. You know, this is the. knowing -- ! 15 knowing, intentional repeating and making again of a false. 16 statement, that they acknowledged.to be. false, to NRC and in 17 this LER. 18 And so what I say -- you know,'and I'm shocked, 19 but it's happening, and this is an.aside --.you know, we're 20 on the speaker phone and I'm with John, and'I say this.to 21 Aufdenkampe and I don't know if this is picked upi on the
~
22 speaker phone or not, but I say to Aufdenkampe, they better 23
. look at those logs, you know, 'cause -- you know, basicallyL 24 I'm saying they're-going ahead with this, they better41ook 25 at'those logs 'cause this is false, what they're doing.
ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court-Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006
'(202) 293 3950 i
1 i i s L' ; ,
.i
'123 1 :Q' Do you remember if you said I' don't:think they. -. !
s
-2
~
~better look at those logs orothey better look at those logs?"
13 A' I believe that what"I said is like,"I. don't.think - l 4 -- like, ILdon't think that's correct. Okay? a g 5 .Q Okay.- ; 6- A And.I' '- a'nd'I --~ 7 Q Interrupted'yourself. ' i 8 JA I dont think that's true. IOksy? You know,(and' 3 9
.then I interrupted myself and just said, they better'look at' g
- 10 those logs. 1 '
1 , 11 Q Okay. ' 1
- 12 A ,
- My -- and I can tell you very explicitly, my: 1
.1 13-intent of saying this there is not to; imply that they shoul'd
.. i 14 not look at those. logs. _My-intent isJto state that they l
- . 15 should look at the logs. '
i -t 16 -Q Okay. - t-17 A 'And that -- like'I said, that was said aside toi
'l 18 Aufdenkampe. ,
You know, whether-it1was picked up'on"the ! i 4 19 other end, I don't know. i 20 Q
- l. '.
.During this entire' process, Mr. Mosbaugh, when.you
- 21 recognized that' wrongdoing was going on, did you delay for !
22 any reason in bringing it to the attention of either your. I 23 own management or the NRC? Do you understand the question?. j 24 A Yeah. 25 Q Okay. I 1 ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. 1 Court Reporters ; 1612 K Street. N W., Suite 300 l Washington ; 2 20006 , a j (202) :-- )950 i
L 124 4 1 A The answer is no. When -- you know, when you' I i 2 recognize that wrongdoing is going on -- you know, I i j 3- recognize that.this kind of. wrongdoing'is criminal. Okay? 4 As a nuclear manager'and having familiarity with'NRC
- t. 5 requirements and enforcement and. code'of federal 1 i 6 1
- regulations, I recognize that this -- if.this -- this 7
i-wrongdoing, if I'm correct, is criminal,.and that's a very
- 8 serious charge to make.
l 9 j L And-the -- even taking it one step'less than that, l- 10 if it was' wrongdoing -- what if it was just: wrong? What if. ! 11 it was just a material false statement?.:You.know, and I, 12 guess people argue.that'there has to be? intent'for it to be ! 13 material, but. Well, let's say just if - 'what if it was an 14 important false statement? Okay. I'm'also' aware'that those i- 15
-- that the NRC calls for enforcement action at severity- d 16 levels one, two, and three for just wrong statements and not ,
17
-- even without criminal intent, you.know; so1those are the .
18 highest level of NRC violations. : j 19 i And I don't take that lightly.. Okay? And so'1 i
- 20 did not want to formally present my management or formally.
21 present an allegation to the NRC;until I had completely-22 verified that and at least given time'to get all the facts
- 23. and consider that perhaps there was some other a
24 4 interpretation that I wasn't looking at at that time that-25 i could have made what they said just true.and,. secondly, that-i- - ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington,'D.C. 20006
.(202) 293-3950 m -
, , y- - . a v'e
. . . ~. . _
4
,. h25 \
1 >it'-- ) that -- you know, that maybe there'was~something I 2 didn't'know'about that - .where I suspected'it'was of a
]
, i
~
3 malicious 11' n tent or deliberate, that.maybe it wasn't
\
4 deliberate. Okay?' i 1 5 And so it;took_me' awhile to do.that. EAnd whereasi 6 3 this occurred on 4/19, ?I put together: -- I. got control logs,.
~
j 7 you know, so'I got control logs'and; shift supervisor. logs,
)
8 and I got logs -- the dieseligeneratorEsurveillancelsheets . 9 of logs and so forth.and went.throughLthat. . And'that's not :
.10 :
-- that's not an easy job, 'but then-it's not aL difficult' job- l 11 either, you'know. It's, you know,. dosens and dozens of. l 12 pages and making tabulations, but -- and so-I went through I 13 and-did'that, and I completed that effort between the'19th
- 14 and the 30th. Okay? -And so that's 11 days. ::
l 15 I got the logs, I reviewed the logs, I 'nade 1 16 tabulations, and I also made'-- I-also_made a. tabulation. i 1 17 i And in about the same time frame -- and I can't recall if it : i
. 18 was before'the 30th or after the 30th, but:in about the same- 1 19 .t time frame I began to draft an allegation to'the NRC, a '
20 formal written allegation' typed on a. word processor, and a 21 that^took a little bit of time, too, and I wanted that to be 22 -- to be just right. i-23 ! And that allegation addressed twoiseparate'-- what i 24 I' viewed as two separate events: one series of events about 25 the' COA and another series of events about the LER. But'in ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street,.N.W., Suite 300 ) Washington, D.C. 20006 .! j (202) 293-3950 ' l
126 1 addition to that, I included in there under the COA document 2 all of the information about diesel air quality, and so that 3- required some additional research like getting maintenance 4 work orders and, you;know, getting all the history on dryers 5 and dryer performance and so forth. 1 i 6 I didn't want to go into the NRC with that I 7 piecemeal -- okay, well, here's a false statement about' 8 starts, and then come in another three weeks later a,n'd say . 9 well, here's false information. I wanted it all together. 10 So, you know, no, there was no delay. I think that my ; 11 actions were prompt. I put it in -- did the research, 12 proved the false statement had been made, and I went to my 13 management within 11 days. Okay? And then in the same time l 14 frame, in April, I -- April or early May -- I drafted the 15 allegations that I would eventually give to the NRC. 16 Now, there was some additional delay. 'I was 17 prepared to give those allegations directly to the 2GtC -- 18 you know, I went to my management on the 30th of April, only l 19 11 days after recognizing that wrongdoing was going on. 20 Okay? Then I took my allegations to the NRC, and I didn't 21 give'those to the NRC until a couple.of months more -- t I 22 month / month and half? 23 Q About June. i 24 A Month and a half. Mid June, June 14th. Okay? ; 25 Now, I prepared documents to give to the.NRC right'away, and ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, ; !. 20006 (202) 24- e950
'l 127 1 I was -- and-I prepared those documents to send to the NRC 2 anonymously like I had the dilution valves. But because of I l
3 what happened in early May, when I was relieved from the,PRB j 4 and .all my job responsibilities were taken away, I got into 1 i 5 the DOL process. In mid May I contacted a lawyer, and' i 6 because that was going on' simultaneously, I didn't know if I 7 ought to. send those' anonymously again. Okay? So as a B result, I didn't do anything. I asked my attorney how'best 9 to handle.this, and they eventually ~-- and they.and I 10 eventually set up the meetings that we began in June. 11 l So there was -- there was perhaps a little delay. l 12 There was no intentional delay and the delay was a result of 13 initiating the DOL proceeding at the same time. But, you 14 know, I initiated these allegations in both cases, I think, 15 you know, really quite promptly. And given the time that's I 16 transpired since then, they were very prompt. l L 17 O Looking at page 21, line 20. This is of Exhibit - l 18 - still of Exhibit 38. I 19 A Let me just add, you know, .one more thing -- one 20 more thing with that, too. 21 Q Sure. 22 A With respect to wrongdoing, it was important to me l 23
. what I saw happen after the 19th, the actions of the company 24 and things that I saw happen after the 19th that further 25 confirmed -- and I'll speak to the criminal side of I l l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. !
Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 ; Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 l
. . . _ . _,.m .
i 1
]
i 128-1
-wrongdoing, the intentional side of wrongdoing. The actions -
2
- -that happened after the 19th further supported my-initial j 3 conclusion. Okay? The actions that the company took to .
4 delay theLcorrection of this LER, you know, to stall-it, ! 5 okay,;the various actions and, you know, _how-I was told that- ! ! 6 they were not going to submit the-revision until'after the j 7 p j l-meeting with the IIT team meeting with the commission on the, 8 site-air emergency, you know, the job actions that were. 9 4 taken against me in early May, you know--the various things 10 that I saw happening after that,>you know, further 11 i confirmed, you know, that there was intentional wrongdoing i 12 and wrongdoing of.-- by. intent, you know, and, you know,- ! 13 t those -- you know, those just further solidified my 14 conclusions that I drew on those. 15 Are you at page 21, 3ine 20 of Exhibit 387 Q l 16 A Yeah. ' i 17 Q-What are you referrin* to'when.you say you haves 18 the data? 19 [ Witness reviews document.] 20 A Yeah. I'm referring to the Kochery list. Okay?. 21 I So we had the data. He's saying -- he says that well, i 22 George -- George Bockhold, I guess ---has claimed that he- ! 23 started counting after we had completed the instrumentation 24 and et cetera, et cetera. And then he's saying, you know, 25 what we're trying to show is that the unit starts -- when i l j ANN RILEY &'ASSO*:ATES,.LTD. Court Rep;rters 1612 K Street. N W., Suite 300 ; i Washington, ; ; 20006 (202) :-- - L5O _ , , , - . . -- - ~
1
. 1 129 :
^ l' thats,---when the calibration's been.done correctly, thatL jt l 2- the -- ! o i P Who is saying that?; 3 i "Q i f-
<4 A . Shipman is saying that. !
I 5 .Q Okay. ' 6- A Okay. And he's basing that,on' George-Bockhold's. j 7 : assertions; ~ And what I say-'is, well, we have the datai you. ' {
- 8 know, the Kochery~ list; the-question is is what's the date !
- i. .
and time that you're talking about? Okay? What date and 9 - } } 10 time or what start number was it.when you completed'the 4 11 calibrations? Okay? And,.you know,las'soon as we get to i 12 that point at'which we want to' start' counting, we can~get 13 the count. pretty quick. I 14 4- In a sense, this comes back to defining the- i 15 i comprehensive test program or whatever. George umant by the 1 i 16 I starting point that he claims to be the completion of the
'{
i 17- comprehensive test' program. And, again,1what we see here is \ 18 it's not defined. .Okay? It's not defined.. ; 19 j Q But the data that you're referring to'is the
- 20 Kochery list?
1 21 A I'm referring to the -- to a Kochery. list ~. ! 1- 22 1 1. Q Right. Look at page 22, line 16. . And we've I 23 touched on this fairly extensively, and I'll ask you this 24 question: other than what we've already discussed on the' I 25 record with respect to your contacts of Jimmy Paul Cash, is i i j ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 { Washington, D.C. 20006 i
) (202) 293-3950 4
e as9--%9 g.<pp,a p 7 -.g... p ,,,y,-- - e- .py. ,g.-a q+_. .s.y-4
l : 130 ' l' there anything -- are there--is there anything else that'you' ; 2 can' recall with respect.to a contact of Jinny Paul Cash-and~ ' 3 what he told you about how he got the starts? i 4 .A I -- you know, I think -- I think in theLeourse - : 5
- I think in the course of the 19th Jimmy Paul. Cash'may-have i 6 popped into Aufdenkampe's' office and we may have -- John and -
i ! 7 I may have~said something to Jimmy Paul about, you know,-the j 8 data or the counts, but'all I can remember that he ever -- ' 9 he ever told us was that -- I think he confirmed that he did' q I 10 the counts, but he never supplied us any other detail.- 'You ! 11 know, I think we may have-said well, did you -- you know, l 12 did you do it, and, yeah, I counted that-for George or I did 13 that review for George, but I don't remember'any additional 14 detail of what -- of what he told us,:and'I don't.believe he 15 told us anything. - 16 Q And you're -- and I'm not talking only now about 17 the contact you may have had with Cash on.the 19th, but we 18 talked earlier about your -- 19 A We talked about my contacts after -- t 20 Q After the 30th. 21 A -- 4/30, which probably occurred in the first 1 22 couple of days of May. And like I said, the -- you know, 23 the -- well, we've di'scussed - 'we have discussed everything 24 that I can remember about'my,-quote, working with Jimmy Paul l 25 Cash as George Bockhold, you know, assigned and getting from ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006' (202) 293-3950
i ~
- a. a ,
131 .i 1 Jimmy Paul Cash information about how -- I e 2 MR. KONN: I'm. losing you.
- I 3 . TEE WITNESS: -- and getting information about howl i
-4 4
he did that initial compilation. L I think we've'already gone i
.5 over everything that I can' -- 'I can : remember about that.
i ; 6: I -- you-know, I noted one thing here right in,the-section before,~you know, what we were talking about'with-- 1 7- . l , 8 you.know, when I said to Shipman, well,'if;you'can tell meL .! 9 what point that is, you:know, that we should-start-counting,: 10 you know, we have a listf we could start. counting. Jutd : l 11 that's interesting 'cause,.you know, this just further:shows-j 12. that Shipman.says, well, George said he started:-- you.know, f 13~ we're onlthat last -- you know, we're on that last' call. i 14 ,1. where shipman supposedly is.getting a site' buy-in. 'okay?' . 15 ! And Shipman says, well,' George said he started counting
- 16 after we had completed the instrumentation'recalibration..
17 okay?' So that's one point we'canastart counting if we can'
- 18 define that point. I can't define it --! Shipman ~says. i I j
! 19 i can't define it. I don't know when-that was.' Somebody 20 generated the sort of data that generated the numbers 18 and
- 21 19 to George on that basis.
4 22 So, you know, I'm just saying this, again, is 23 saying that, you know, one, they had no basis, you know, 24 two, you know, they really don't know what they're talking 25 about. They're putting -- they're putting words in here and i ! ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters j 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 i
- Washington.
- 2. 20006 (2 02) . - a 950 l
I 132 1 they want to put words in here that is based on something 2 that they've been told is. wrong, that they can't defend --'I L3
.can't define it -- you know, that they can't support', yet:
4 this same_ call is the_ call that Shipman island. Southern 5 Nuclear and ftheir law firm 'is going to claim, you, know,- 6 constituted a site. verification.of data, you_know, and:I 7 find that very contradictory. 8 BY MR. ROBINSON ' 9 Q- Look at page'-33, line 11. .What data or document 10 are you using~when you cannot find enough starts?' 11 A- Kochery_ list. 12 Q Look at page 34, line 5. Do you know what p 13 schedule were you referring to that was given.to'the IIT?: I 14 And I*know we have had some conversation'about you making 15 comments about things given tolthe. IIT just to kind-of;put 16 Georgia Power management on guard. Were you -- can you-17 recall what schedule you were referring to'that'was given to l 18 the IIT? 19 A I think this was -- I think this was the 20 undervoltage test, schedule. You.know,.the outage -- the l 21-outage group made'these little minischedules of the testing. 22 events, and I think this is the undervoltage testing 23 schedule'. I think'there was a separate _little schedule put 24 together for this. p 25 Q Let the record reflect.that Im going to show Mr. ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES,.LTD. Court Reporters 1612'K. Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202). 293-3950
i
-133 2 1 Mosbaugh a document identified in the lower left-hand corner -
2 with the words 1R2 critical path, and this.may or may not be- I 3
-- have any relation to the schedule you were talking about, 4 but is that'the format of the schedule?
5 A No. 6 Q No, that -- 7 A No. i B Q -- critical path type --' ! 9 A Yeah, this-is -- this is the computer-generated 10 schedule. These -- the schedule I'm referring to was a ~ I 11 hand-drawn schedule, a hand-drafted schedule. l 1 12- Q I see. i 13 A And what we're talking about here, you know, when , 14
-- you can see that -- what we're talking about here is 15 we're arguing a little bit about this comprehensive test '
1 16 program. Okay? . 17 0 Uh-huh [yes). ! 18 A i And I'm claiming that the undervoltage test was 1 19 certainly part of the comprehensive test program. And this 20 is what we covered a little earlier where I was trying to 21 rebut Shipman in saying that, hey, you can't start counting , 22 at least until the undervoltage test.. And so I say on line 23 -- on page 34, line, 1, on the B unit the undervoltage I 24 testing is certainly part of the comprehensive test program. 25 And John says, I don't know, and then I say, well, hell, it i I l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters j 1612 K Street. !* W.. Suite 300 ; Washingter. : 7. 20006 l i (202) .- :950 ' l _. _ i
i 5 i s 134 ! I was part of the test program that we put in writing in a ! i 2 little. schedule we gave to the IIT. : _i
.3- So what that schedule was was like maybe a one- j 4
' day or a two-day detailed schedule offhow we were going-to ! 5 conduct that undervoltage test. lit wouldn't have included l 1 6 other diesel testing before or after and was in no way a i 7 comprehensive kind of list. It was - lit was-just a.little B segment,.a very detailed and probably one day's duration of 9 how we.were going to setLup for and'do the undervoltageL j 10 test. J 11 Q Do you remember.giving that toLthe IIT or did some: 12 -- did John give it them? ~ h 13 A I remember in a meeting -- I remember.in.a meeting { 14 or something that it was handed, in this. case--- i 15 'MR. KOHN: I'm losing you, A1. i 1 16 THE WITNESS: Yeah. '1 I remember -- I remember it l 17 being handed to them. ! I don't recall that I;gave it'to i 18 u them, but I may -- I remember probably seeing:it given or il 19 hearing that it was given. 20 BY MR. ROBINSON: 21 Q Look at page 34, line 24. And-I think I know the
-i 22 answer to this question, but to what are you referring when-23 you say you can't find enough starts?
24 [ Witness reviews document.)
- 25 A Okay. I'm looking -- I'm looking at a: list again, ANN RILEY L ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
- - - a- , .-- ---,-,n . - ,e-p , e- ,qu., - r -e o . yr ,er,m-- py- ,
4 135 1 and I think it's-th_ same list we've been talking'about, the
~
2 Kochery' list. And I -- we've had this discussion'-- 3 Q' About the comprehensive -- , 4 A :!
-- about the comprehensive test program and when j 5
we might start counting or when's an appropriate point to- i l 6 ! start counting,'and I've claimed the undervoltage test -- 7 you;know, .that you couldn't start counting before this .)
~
i i 8 undervoltage test. 9 'Q 'Okay. ' 10 A~ And now I'm counting. And I'm saying that I can't 11 find ~enough starts; I'm having trouble finding enough-12 starts. And a number of them I don't know are logged here . 13 because -- and then Aufdenkampe says they're all logged. { 14 there, they're all logged. There's - oh, Cash. Now -- 1 15 okay. So cash is here now. Okay. I went through the-log . i 16 book page by page. When did you start?, Where did you start i 17 at? Cash: when did I start what? .You've got the 18 information -- Aufdenkampe got the failures - .I gave him-19 failures as well as valid starts. Cash: -I gave him every j 20' one that we -- every start that we had done, i 21 Q Okay. ! But we're talking about -- 22 A Okay. Yeah, I -- I 1 23 Q -- what youre referring to when you couldn't find
~
24 enough starts, and you're saying that was the Kochery: list. ( 25 A I believe I'm.still referring to the Kochery lis: l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 ' Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 _
f l 136 1 You know, we keep -- and I just -- I.can't -- I can't help 2 you, Larry, any further on this. You know, we've talked. l 3 about a Webb -- a Webb list, and, you know, there's this ; l 4 possibility that maybe at this point, you know, that we get 5 some more data, a Webb list,;you know, gets tallied,'but I-l 6' - t l And when you say at this point, this is after -- 7 Q l B is this-after you've hung up with Shipman and Stringfellow ' 9 after the last call on April 19th? ' 10 A Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is, I believe. I just-can't 11 remember that we -- if-we goc a second list. You know, I i
- 12 just -- I just recall there being something, you know, !
13 before or after, but it -- so to answer your question, you 14 know, I think I'm looking at the Kochery list', but, you 15 know, whatever I'm looking at -- and I'm saying I -- 16 starting at the comprehensive test program, I can't -- I 17 can't find enough. Okay? 18 Q Right, right. 19 A And I say they're all'-- I say don't know if 20 they're all logged, and then that's interesting that Cash 21 says -- I think Cash is referring to Bockhold here--I gave 1 22 him every one. You know, I think Jimmy Paul is talking 23 : about his role in counting these starts initially for 24 Bockhold on 4/9. He says, I gave him every one, every start i 25 that we had done. Let's see. Aufdenkampe --.one had ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 l
137. . 1 started, one had failed, two had started, three had started 2 -- 3 MR. KOHN: Hello? 4 THELWITNESS: Yeah. -- four had started and
~
5 failed. Is that how you gave it to him or did'you just give 6 him totals? And Cash says totals. 7 BY MR. ROBINSON: ' 8 Q And that's his response, totals? 9 A
~
Totals. But before he.said, I gave him every'one l 10- -- 11 Q Yeah. i 12 A -- that we had, every start that we had done. So 13 there's'a conflict there. 14 Q Well, I think we've answered that particular is question, and I think the folks on -- 16 -A Okay. Here it is. This is -- this is -- you ' 17 know, we were talking about the conversation with Cash on l 18 the 19th. Yeah, this is it 'cause I'm asking him right here 19 on page 35 at line 22: the information George-presented 20 when he was in Atlanta -- okay -- you got some information 21 together for him, and Cash says right. You know, we ask him J 22 when he started counting -- okay. This is the conversation ! 23 that I recalled with Cash. 24 O And that's starting on what page of Exhibit 38? 25 A That starts on page 35 toward the bottom. i I ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, NW., Suite 300 ; Washington. : 20006 (202) :-- 450 m
i i f 138 1 Q Other than what we've already discussed today, do i 2 you have any other information that McCoy, Mcdonald, or 3 Hairston - -- , 4 MR. KOHN: Larry, I havela.hard time hearing' you. ; 5 BY MR. ROBINSON: .i 6 Q Do you have any other_information'that McCoy, 7 -Mcdonald, or Hairston knew on April 19th about the trips-8 that you had talked to Shipman and Stringfelle about? i 9 Okay?. I'll repeat the question. Other tbi what we've ! 10 already talked about today, okay, do you.have any other ; 11 information that shows that McCoy,' Mcdonald, or Hairston I i 12 knew on April 19th about the trips that.you had talked to 1 13 shipman and Stringfellow about earlier _in the day?_ j 14 A I think we've covered the indications and the l 15 evidence that they had talked -- you'know, that it -- the l i 16 information had gone up the chain. Okay? And we've cited i 17 from the transcript a number of acknowledgements'where the i is people indicate that the information-'had gone.tgithe' chain-19 all the way up to Mcdonald, you know, so I think we'already' 20 have that on the record. - 21 Q Okay. And I'll-give you'a moment to think about 22 is there -- is there any other conversation or something 23 that you can recall that shows that McCoy, Mcdonald,.or 24 Hairston knew on April 19th about those March 22nd and March' 25 '23rd trips? ANN RILEY'& ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters . ! 1612 K Street-, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 i
'(202) 293-3950 i
i 4
)
i 139' ) 1 MR. ROBINSON: J While you're' thinking about the 2' l answer to that question, it appears that-we.need to. replace z 3 tapes. It is now 2:52:p.m., and we're going to take a break-. i 4 ^for.the court' reporter-to change tapes.- l 5 [Brief recess)~ 6 MR., ROBINSON: ' Stephen--.- ! 7 i
'MR. KOHN:- Yeah. 'l 8 -MR. ROBINSON . --Al's back now if you want-to talk' !
9 to him.
~10 MR. KOHN: Okay. Yeah. 'Could we go'off the 11 record for a second. t 12 MR. ROBINSON: I Okay. I 13
[Off the record momentarily). 14 MR. ROBINSON: Yeah. We're back'on. 15 MR. KOHN: Okay. Yeah. And there's no'one'else ; 16 in the room. 17 MR. ROBINSON: Okay. It is -- it is now 2:55 p.m. i 18 and we're back on the record. 19 THE WITNESS: i Yeah. To-- 20 MR. ROBINSON: Let the record reflect that there 21 i was an off-the-record conference between Mr. Mosbaugh and 22 his attorney. Go ahead wherever you'were. 23 THE WITNESS: Yeah. To answer your question, 24 Larry, I believe that the responses that were'given by 25 Georgia Power Southern Nuclear in a variety of subsequent ANN RILEY & ASSCOIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington. : 2. 20006 (202) I '- - 50 i.
-.q 4
- . 140 I 1 sworn and under oath replies are evidence that
- the.
4 2 executives, McCoy,-Hairston, Mcdonald, were' aware.that there 3 was a-problem, that there were a problem of. trips andffalse 4 statements about to be made here. And=let me go over, you~ 5 know, what I think that is. You know, first, what--when.we-6 started--for example,'.got the responses to the'2.206 J 7' petition, when we got the depositions from the southern i 8 Nuclear. personnel and the DOL. hearing, what came through was 9 a very clear effort.to' distance from those executives land 10 from their' responses to distance themself from involvement. 11 Okay? And, for example, in the response to the 2.206 12 petition, the response we get back, even-though we have.the 13 involvement that.we had discussed earlier:and-we have these 14 statements about McCoy and Mcdonald and:Hairston:being; 15 concerned about,a false statement in the LER'andLhow they've . 16 reviewed the LER on' Mcdonald's part andchow Hairston, we. 17 know from the transcript, was on the' call and how Hairston~ 18 was concerned about the trips so we'didn't have no trips. 19 Even though we have all that directLevidence,1when 20 we got the responses back on these various things, the 21 statements tried to distance themselves. So in the 2.206 22 ' petition response, we..get the response.back Hairston-- 23 although Hairston was not a participant in the call, okay, 24 when~we talk to Mcdonald in his deposition on June--orion 25 September 17th, 1990, in.the DOL proceeding,~ Mcdonald said ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite.300 Washington, D.C. 20006-(202)'293-3950
P 1 141 1 he hasn't--he didn't review the LER before it was signed 2 out. When we asked Mcdonald where he was on the 18th and on' t 3' the 19th,'he says he was out-of the office, he was in 4 Okay? Atlanta. You know, again, sworn'to tellit he truth, 5 the whole truth and nothing but the truth, in that. 6 deposition he leaves the distinct impression:that he was not 7 in the office. Okay? ... ; He.was out1of the office. 'He was in / 8 Atlanta.in a meeting. But the-fact is is that's not.-true. 9 Okay?- t
'10 BY' MR. ROBINSON:
11 Q You're' talking about Mcdonald now? b 12 A Mcdonald. Okay? Because.now upon. Southern 13 Nuclear's'own admission, Mcdonald, you know, was in the' 14 office. Okay? And in his--and in statements,.you'know, i { 15 made in the ASLB proceeding, they have now said that he-- t 16 that'he was out of town, you know, some,of the day he.was in 17 the office-on the afternoon and we know~that because--and we
~
18 also know he reviewed the LER. And in his statements in the l 19 same ASLB proceeding, now he's admitting that he reviewed 20 t'he LER. McCoy, in his deposition he says that'he'was also 21 out'of town. Okay? 22 So Mcdonald was out of town, McCoy was'out of town ! 23 and Hairston wasn't on the phone call. -Collectively, they 24 are trying--and Mcdonald's never saw the LER before.it was 25 signed out. They're distancing themself'from involvement. 1 ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters
'1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 -
Washington, D.C. 20006 1
'202) 293-3950
1 l. l 6 142 i 1 okay? But now--and I'll continue where I was with McCoy in- ! 2 his deposition, which I think~was taken.cn about September 3 the 12th of 1990, in'the DOL proceeding. He also said.that- -
?
4
-that.he-was' aware that-Al Mosbaugh had brought up concerns l
5 about that LER with Bill Shipman. 'But we know that that ?
- l. 6 conversation happened on the 19th. And then McCoy says--
7
~
)
goes on to say that he was out of the office that day. t 8
.okay? 'In his DOL testimony he says he was out of the office- :
'9 that day.
10 When~we--when we look at the white. paper'that 11 Southern Nuclear provided in August of 1990 and identified 12 who was on the call that revised the LER, they identify;who 13 was on'the call. They identify myself, Stringfellow, 14 Bockhold, Shipman, and.nobody else--and: Aufdenkampe' and 15 that's it. McCoy is not identified, okay? 'But we-know 16 very clearly from listening to that con.versation, in which ' L 17 I the words--and it's very clear in that white paper, the. ; 1B words--the NRC asks the specific question of how were the 19 words subsequent to the test program added. 20 Well, they were added only on one call and we know 21 which call that was and we also know that Mr. McCoy-22 participated in that call. Yet theyLdidn't identify in the 23 white paper written statements in response to questions from. 24 the NRC that they gave to the NRC a direct answering of NRC 25 question in writing. They failed to~ identify _Mr. McCoy. i l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. j f
. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N W., Cuite 300 l' Washington. . 20006 (202) :-- 950-E
- , ., ., n., ,,- ,. ., ,, --u-, .. , ,
-. . . . . - .. . ~ . . . . . . .
143
-1 And Mr. McCoy was present-in a meeting when that white paper.
- 2 was prepared and he didn't identify himselfLand correct that1 j 3 answer.when it was; prepared. So you see, we have maybe.a' .
~
i , .4 dozen.different-instances where~they are trying'to say I was
~
i j
- 5 out of, town, I:wasn't there, I didn't'-know!anything about--
it . . They're trying to distance-themselves'from involvement. 6 i 4. i j 4
'7 And-I believe that that act of trying--of tryingLto_do that :
-8 1 is a fairly, you know, strong indicator that?they're trying 9 ;
} . to cover something up. And because to the contrary we hear ! 10 from these' comments that they--we know they were involved. ! 11 3-r We hear comments that they are involved from'a variety of t j 12 people. .. . Yet, . in these sworn documents,~they're saying they i
- 13 weren't involved.
1 l 14 Now, they did all that before they knew what was I 4
- 15 the content of these tapes. All these responses where they -
16 say--where Mcdonald says I never reviewed that'LER before it 17 . j was signed out, I was out of town, where McCoy says he was ! 4 j 18 out of town, where Hairston--where Mcdonald said Hairston 19 wasn't on the call, et cetera, et cetera, they did--they' a 20 made all those responses before they knew what was on the ]_ 21 content of the tapes. Okay? And they distanced themselves. . 22 Then when they knew some of what was on the contents'of the 23 tapes, they changed their story. Their testimony is
- i. ..
i, 24 different. And now in the ASLB proceeding,'they admit that I 25 Mcdonald-- (- lt
=
- ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters a 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300
- . Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 J
a : 4 i -144 9 I would just like to interjectLhere, if 1 MR. KOHN: I 2 I could, this is-one of our reasons why~we think getting the 4 1. 3 : affidavit of Aufdenkampe and some'of the other persons who- , ! 4 executed statements before they had access;to the tapes. '! 5 They think that they are ver.y probative as to;this issue. ! l ;
- _ '6 MR. ROBINSON
- So noted. '
' t 2 7 THE WITNESS: So,.you know,.the story changed!as )
- 8 soon as they knew a.little bit more, knew a'little. bit of.
1 t 9 what was on this tape or that tape. AndTin the same"wayf l 4 10 they changed which call of reference they're; referring to E 11 now when they said Hairston wasn't.on the call. Once they 4
- j. 12 knew'Hairston was on the' call, like Mcdonald denied in the j
[' 13 2.206. petition response,'they switched their reference.
- i 3- 14 They switched it to another. call. 'Okay? But.that--and that~
l Y l , 15 does get into, you know, the affidavits. But just from-- 16 i just from the way they described'that'callLalone, you'know, 17 we know what--I know that that call wasithe bigger call, the i 18~ l earlier call, the call in which Bockhold'and McCoy'and i h 19 Hairston participated becauseLthat was the only call in ~ 20 2 which by their own'words the call in which the final' wording 21 was--and the wording was revised. You know, they used that .
- i. . .
22 3 word in their 2.206 petition response whenithey--when they ' 23 said Hairston wasn't on the call in'which the wording.was . 1 revised. Only in one call was the wording revised,.you-p 24 ! 25 know, but now they're--now they're trying to refer to the i ' ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. . Court Reper:ers 1612 K Street, !: W., Suite 300 Washington : , 20006 (202) .-- t950
t i 145 <. 1- later call. 'So, you know,..you have that--all those' denials. I i 2- And, I. guess, the other thing I'd~like t'o get in- j 3 because it is--it is separate;and independent indication is f t 4 Emy knowledge of the affidavits. And let me see if I can try j ' i j 5 'to go over the sequence. In the spring of 1991--well, in i 6 . September of 19'90, the 2.206 petition was filed. .By the-l 7 spring of 1991, Georgia Power Southern Nuclear responded to-1 8- .the 2.206 petition. ~And specifically in'that petition, they; l ? 9 tried to distance Mr.'Hairston from. involvement by saying l \ 10- that'he was not on the_ late afternoon phone call'and;that he 1
.a i 11 .had every reason to.believe the information and it'was '
12 accurate. -Okay? 4 13 Well, when I saw that, I re-reviewed, as we've i j 14 discussed earlier on this' transcript, and I rebutte'd that in '
- 15 a--in a follow-up. allegation that'I filed with Bruno Urye l
- 16 and that, I think, may have gone into some petition i
1 j 17 amendments, tOU. And so I believe that--and that happened 18 in June of 1991. Well, after that in the fall / winter. time 19 frame of 1991, I believe-somehow Georgia Power found out
- 20 that I had filed that and that there had been some rebuttal. I I
21 Okay? And I don't know what channels that. place took, but : :
- 22 think it became an issue for them or they realized they i L 1 23 needed to support their statement that Hairston was not a l 4
l 24 participant on that call. Okay? And so what I have-
- 25 firsthand knowledge of is that at that time I was here-in my l
' j ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters . 1612 K Street. N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 4
-. ., , . . ~ - ... ,.
y n n- q m m ,_.yg
t 5 146 1 subdivision, in Lake Royal subdivision in Augusta, and I 2 was--had visited John Aufdenkampe in his house in the same' 3 subdivision and he told me about the affidavit that the.
- 4. lawyers were seeking for him to sign. And he indicated to 5
me that the affidavit.was about that late ~ afternoon phone ' 6 call, the one about the LER, the~one from 4/19/90, and that 7 they--the affidavit had been prepared by the lawyersLfor him i B to sign and the-initial draft that they had prepared for him 9 to sign, he didn't like and he found to beiinaccurate. 10 BY MR. ROBINSON:
- 11- Q Let me ask you this while you're talking about ,
12 that: did you address in your conversation with Mr. l 13 i Aufdenkampe whether or not at-any time he had given them any ;
- l. 14 words to form a first draft--
15 MR. KOHN: Losing you, A1. 16 BY MR. ROBINSON: . 17 Q --of an affidavit? 18 . THE WITNESS: That's Larry speaking. i 19 MR. KOHN: Oh, I've lost you, Larry.- 20 MR. ROBINSON:' Okay. 21 BY MR. ROPINSON: 22 Q Do you understand the question? 23 A Yeah. My understanding.of the evolution of that. -j 24 affidavit is that a draft was first presented to him, having 25 been drafted and prepared by the lawyers. l l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
f t l ,. 'i j 147 l
- 1. Without any input from him?
-Q l i !
.2 .A I don't know.
3 Q Okay. . l 4 A' ?Okay.- You know, I. don't know what extent of __ 5- initial input he.may-have'provided.- 20kay? But if, for- i 6 example, he had provided-the majority of the initial input,; 7 !
'one would think that it might have._ initially been more ;
8 accurate. .Okay? " 9 [ Q' Or acceptable. i 10 i
.A Or acceptable. But he found that initial draft'to 11
-be inaccurate and unacceptable ^and told me he'would not sign a j 12 'it .
l
- I l
? 13 -Q Did he tell you.what that initialldraft said? ! 14 A No. No. No, he didn't. -l But he. told'me that he i 15 was going, quote, round and round with the lawyers, okay, on 16 this. And he also said that the affidavit concerned whether 17 Hairston--well, it concerned'who were=the participants on 18 that late afternoon call and, more specifically,Jwhether 19 Hairston was a participant on that late afternoon call. And
. 20 John said to me, he said,'A1, I remember--I remember 21 Hairston being on that. call. And I said, yeah, I do, too.
22 And then he said to me--he. named to me the individuals that-23 he recalled being on that call and he named himself and me 24 and Jack Stringfellow and Bill ~ Shipman and Ken McCoy_and 25 George Bockhold and George Hairston and that--and that he l. ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reperters 1612 K. Street, N W., Suite 300~ Washington. : 2. 20006 (202) 2;i 1950
_. . - . - . _ = . --. .. [ 148 o i remembered that. And he told me that he told the' lawyers 2 that, that he remembered Hairston being on the call. And 3 2 when he told the lawyers that he remembered-Hairston being'_
\
on the call, the lawyers said to John, they said, John, 4 I e 5 you're--you know, we're getting affidavits from'everybody 6 that was on that call or we have gotten or are getting 7 affidavits from everybody that was on'that call end you're B the only one--this is what the' lawyers told'Aufdenkampe,~ i 9 John, you're the only one that remembers Hairston being-on-10' that call. l . 11 And so that was--so we talked:about that, and then. 1 12 I think I said something like--I said, well, you remember 13 Hairston was on that call. I said -- I said,-remember when 14 George Hairston said, well, that's just what the' shift
;. 15 supervisor would tell me to do or something like that and' 16 quoting from what I remembered being on.the call.and John
{. 17 said oh, yeah. And then John said to me, he said--he said, 18 i well, he said--he said, I guess I shouldn't'be talking to { 19- you about this. He said,'I guess--I guess there's a j 20 conflict of interest. And with that, the conversation
- 21 ended.
I 22 And so-then a week 2 or two or so-passe'd and I was i- 23 visiting John again in his house'and I learned from him i 24 that, I think, he'said something'about he~had--he had i 25 resolved--he had resolved the affidavit or, you know, the . 3 i l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. i Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 s Washington, D.C. 20006 [ (202) 291-3950
)
_ _ _ _ ,, ... . . ~ _ . _- . , _ . , . . , . . , ,
, , - , n . - - . . . -- . . . . - .n..an. -s.-~, - -
~y. -
1 I 149 1 1
. issue with the. affidavits.
L . . . 2 And then also, another' contact occurred between-- 't 3 Ilthink between:that' time. ) i
. And this was a brief discussion-4 .
I had with'Aufdenkampe's: wife because the' lawyers, according
- 5 1 to.her, had been calling the house,7you know, wanting to getL .
j
- _ 6 the affidavit out.of John. .
I And she indicated that -- I.
.7-guess, a degree oficoncern about the calling--the calling'
- 8 and the11awyers.
I And so then, like I said,: eventually,1 John- , 9. ! made some mention that'he--that he had resolved the. 10 affidavit. s i 11 i And so'on an additional occasion, Ilwas visiting ! 12 1 Aufdenkampe's house and his. wife made' mention that' John had-i 13 i completed or signed'the--resolved the affidavitLand~ offered'
- 14 .
to show me the affidavit. ->md she~did and'I readEit,and.it . I , 15 was a signed copy and it was--it was just, I'believe, one 16 ! .page in length and it started out with theLtypical words, l 17 you know, being of the age of and so forth'.3'And then it: ! 11 8
- started describing the LER, you know, 90-006,:and the 19 H
- discussion, the telephone conversations that'made revisions
, 20 to that LER.. $ And then the--and I think it discussed the . 2 21 i other participants,Lthe participants on-the call,.the late i
~22 af te:rnoon call 1 on 4/19.
And then the one--the one s'entence i 23
; that I remember and can quote fairly well.out of it was !
24 that, you know, I recall--I being John Aufdenkampe, you~know 25
-- recall that George Hairston was on the call, but he was-I a'
j ANN RILEY & ASS C ATES, LTD. Court Rep:rters
- 1612 K Street, NW Suite'300 Washington -
- 20006 (202) 4 50 )
1 I
I 4 4
~150 j 1 on an earlier portion of the call and he.was not on the
, 2 portion of the call where the diesels were discussed. Ar.d , 3 that's as best as I recall a quote of that key sentence out 4 of it. And so, you know, the--that was what I.believe in 1 i i 5- the final affidavit that was. prepared, you know, by John. 6 Q Did you confront John with the fact that that 1 7 affidavit didn't appear to be the way.the situation actually ' ?. g a was? 9 A No, I didn't. And John was.in the earlier 10 conversation -- obviously realized that he had reservations
\ , i 11 about discussing it with me when he said I guess I shouldn't-12 be discussing this with you. So I didn't approach--I didn't I
13 pursue it further with him. But I did--I did contact--I did ' 14 talk briefly to my lawyers and I asked them, hey, i* 15 somebody had written something that's incorrect-- 16 MR. KOHN: One moment, i j 17 THE WITNESS: Yeah, i i 18 MR. KOHN: Hold-one second. Okay. Thank you. 19 Okay. Someone just stepped in, but they didn't overhear and ! 20 they're out now. I I 1 21 MR. ROBINSON: Okay. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. So I talked to my lawyer and 23 said, hey, if somebody had signed an affidavit, you know, l 24 but later realized that, you know, something there was 1-25 incorrect, you know, what can they do? You~know, I was--I l
- ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters-1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 !
I l' I
.151 I
was trying to seek some advice for. John'because I was 2
~ worried that he had signed the affidavit the way.it was t
3 ' written. 4 MR. KOHN: Uh'-- 5 THE WITNESS: And-- 6 MR. KOHN: Al-- 7 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 8 MR. KOHN: =j I wouldn't' get into any attorney client i ' 9 conversation. That would be privileged. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well,'and'so I got that 11 advice, okay, and not.for myself but on.the behalf of John. 12 Okay? And so I related the advice'of what he could do to 13 his wife. Okay? And -- 14 BY MR. ROBINSON: 15 Q And you don't know whether he has followed'that 16 advice or not? 17 A No, I really don't. I don't:know anything that 18 happened after that. I do know, though,'that in the ASLB 19 proceeding when we sought to get the John Aufdenkampe's 20 affidavit and the affidavits of the other people that they 21 were obtained from, that Georgia Power denied to produce 22 those or refused to produce those affidavits. And the. 23 interesting. thing there is that, see, these were prepared in 24 the--in the fall / winter of '91 before, I believe, Georgia 25 Power would have known the contents of any of these tape-ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
152-1 -recordings and whether they proved or-not whether Hairston, 2 you know, was on the call. And they sought--and they seems. 3 to me would have sought those affidavits to support their 4 statements in the 2.206 petition. response. 5 And, of course,-if as the lawyer said they-- 6 everybody--nobody remembered Hairston was on the call,-then 7 these affidavits, you know,.would bolster Georgia Power's 8 case that-Hairston.did not' willfully'make any of these t 9 statements because'well, he didn't know because he wasn't 10 involved. -And it would seem-like it'would be aJstrong case-11- for them. 'But now that they could use those to bolster 12 their case in the ASLB proceeding, for example, these 13 affidavits that support--that should: support their view 14 aren't being provided'. Why7 okay. 'Well,nthe reason why is 15 obvious that since these affidavits were sought in the 16 fall / winter of 1991, they've now learned that-there'are 17 tapes that clearly do evidence that Hairston.was on the 18 call. 19 And based on the existence of those tapes,-they 20 have now changed their frame of reference and claiming!that 21 the call that Mr. Mcdonald was referring to:wasn't._that big 22 late afternoon phone call; it was the< call,_you.know, after 23 that. And, see, now those affidavits are a liability: 24 because one of the affiants, John'Aufdenkampe, has attested 25 to that Hairston was on the call.- Well,:if he was on.the ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES,.LTD. Court Reporters
'1612 K Street, N W., Suite 300' Washington. : 1. 20006 (202) 'a- ': :- 5 0 :
4 b . 153 ) 1 call-, even any portion of the call,1 even.the. portion of the-
- 2 call where the die- weren't discussed, we know that he 3 wasn't on the second call.at all. okay,Lehat Mr.--that 4 Southern Nuclear <and Mr.-Mcdonald, you know,' may now-be 5 claiming was the call of reference in'.the 2.206 petition.
6 response. And-if,.as John Aufdenkampe.saidlto me' , 7 affidavits were obtained from each of the participants of 8 .the call, then the mere existence of an affidavit from. ~ 9
.Bockhold and an affidavit from;McCoy: stating that'they'were .
10' participants on the call but Hairston wasn't on the call 11 further clearly' identifies that second' call;as not being the 12 call of reference, you know. - 13 And so it makes a lie out of subsequent-14 statements, out of even the. changed statement that they've 15' made. First they made the statement that Hairston wasn't on 16 the call. -When they found out the~ tapes proved that to be 17 false, they changed their frame of reference saying that no, 18 we weren't talking about that calli we were talking about 19 the.later call. And now the affidavits arelin a position to-20 blow 'that out of the water, to prove that now this--even 21 this latest statement, this ongoing statement, is yet again, 22 false. And so, you know, that's the additional information 23 that I have about the affidavit. 24 So it's--I guess, you know, to try to answer your 25 question again, Larry, it's this continuing inconsistency, 1 " l 1 i l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 3' Washington, D.C. 20006-(202) 293-3950 . i m
4 i 154 1 coverup, you know, desire to distance themselves, the effort 2 to change the story, you know, that indicates to me, yeah, 3
'they were--they all knew; they were all' involved; they made 4 the decisions to let it go out false the way it went out and 5 now they're doing everything they can to keep the proof of I i
6 that from coming to light. ! 7 Q And I appreciate that information. i Do you have 1 B any information that there were any conversations among 3 9 Bockhold, McCoy, Mcdonald, or Hairston on April 19th other. l 10 than the taped conversations, okay, that--in which the'
- 11 comprehensive test program and the decision to start the 12 counts after the comprehensive test program was made?- And 1 i
13 I'll try to simplify that question. Other than what is on 14 the tapes regarding that late afternoon phone call and the ' 4 15 decision to use the subsequent-to-the-comprehensive-test-j 16 program language, are you aware of any other conversations 17 between Bockhold, McCoy, Mcdonald, or Hairston about that 18 issue? 19 A Yeah. I think--I think that there--well, I think i 20 there were additional conversations between those parties, 21 and~I think we have evidence 1 22 MR. KOHN: I can't hear anyone.. 23 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I think there were additional. 24 conversations between those parties, and I think that we 25 have evidence of that in that segment that we talked'about-ANN RILEY & ASSOO ATES, LTD. Court Rep rters 1612 K Street, NW , Suite 300 Washington, - 20006 (202) ;a- M
?
1 l t . l 155 j } 1 earlier off of one of these transcripts makes reference to a j
;2 discussion that's not taped. ' Okay .- And where that is'it.
i i 3 i makes--I think there's'an indication that Stringfellow ) 4 l
-probably called Aufdenkampe and there's afstatement on there !
- 5. I that Birmingham thinks there's a~ material ~ false statement in i i
- 6 i
this LER and'it's being discussed between McCoy,.Hairston,
- j. 7 and Mcdonald. Okay. .. . I And I.think that's, you know,"fairlyL
.. 4 j 8 good evidence that there.were. other conversations and-- ;
- j. 9 BY MR. ROBINSON: '
l' i 10 Q Okay. And'now I'm kind of' focusing on the l 11 subsequent to the comprehensive test program. I~ understand
- 12
-- I understand what you're saying that that tape. excerpt 5
'13 indicates as far as conversations among the highest. levels.
14 regarding the issue of the fact that there'were trips'and 15 a perhaps how we were going to solve this' problem. Okay. And i 16 my question is: I guess you're including the potential of 17 conversations about the comprehensive control-test program ! 18 in those -- in'those conversations that you feel'took' place l 19 as a result of that?
- 20 A
- I think it's--I think'it's entirely possible. All 21 along the way, I see--I see attempts to solve this. problem. !
- 22 Okay.
! We see it with shipman, you know, trying to figure-23 l out if he can use the words valid to solve this problem.
; 24 4'
And the way the words comprehensive test program'are 25 introduced into that conversation is--that series of words i l 1 j- ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 i Washington, D.C. 20006 . (202) 293-3950 4 L
l l 1 156 1
- really hadn't been mentioned before and-all of a sudden,:you-
. '2 -know,.that's introduced. You know, I will raise the 4 , .3 possibility that that might'have been prediscussed as-- 1 4 0 Well, I think.the words-- l 5 Al --as some new phraseology. 1 I j 6 Q I think -- I think those^words were used in the 7 a April'9th letter. I'll take a look at the-April 9th letter. l
- 8 It was in a sentence prior to the discussion of the' counts. !
9 A Okay. i 1 10 Q And--okay. .In the April.9th letter--and I quote-j 11 from paragraph G [ reading] _since March 20th, 1990,.GPC has-i l 1 12 . performed numerous sensor calibrations including jacket-. . ) ! '13 water temperatures,' extensive logic. testing, special . 14 pneumatic' leak testing and multiple engine. starts and-runs s r 15 under various conditions. . And I agree.with you th'at isinot-t- 16 exactly the word regarding the comprehensiveit esting. So 17 the comprehensive testing language was not.only introduced 18 into the pertinent statement with respect'to counts, but the 4 19 comprehensive testing language was introduced'into theLLER i
- - 20 in the sentence just prior to that where they. talked about
~
[ 21 them being subjective to-a. comprehensive-- R i J
- 22. A Yeah. . It says--yeah. !
{4 23 Q --control test program.-- 24 A Since, you know, they have been subjected to'aL ! j 25 comprehensive. 'It was a new phrase. i I i ; J ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. l' Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300
. Washington, D.C. 20006 .
. (202).293-3950
, i
i 157 1 Q Okay. 2 A' You know, either it was' coined on the' spot but it ~ 3 may well have--very well.have been,.you know, coined in.an - 4 earlier. discussion and. introduced,1'you know, into that
^
5 conversation. 6 Q -Right.. l 7 A'
. ;You know, one other--onefother' thing thatlI~
.\
8 thought about while we'were talking'about additional - " 9 evidence. You know, we haven't discussed the multiple, draft 10- rdvisions. Okay. .But the multipl'e~ draft revisions,.of 11 which there were-seven or eight,'you know,.different drafts 12 written in June time frame,-I.think--yeah. 13 Q' Of the revision.to the LER?' 14- A Yeah. Right. The draft cover letters that-would-15 accompany the June 29th LER revision. 16 -Q Right. 17 A They ascribe the error to a whole variety of' 18 reasons. Okay. And they get into valid and they get into 19 ~ well, we counted--we counted all the starts but we only. 20 counted the valid failures,'you know,:and then we counted it- l 21 this way but that--and you know, there's seven or eight 22 different and in-between them inconsistent and virtually all 23 incorrect reasons for this' error. And some of those you-can 24 see from the transcripts were being tossed around, you know, 25 at the time they were--on the 19th. Okay. ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington. ; 2. 20006 l (202) ; 9 .- 3950 l 1
- :-. . - La
158 .I 1 And.so, you know, I'm suggesting that that 2 indicates that there were probably a number of maybe
~
3 different discussions that were going on as to how we could i 4 solve this problem,.how we're going to reword this_ thing, 5 how we're going to cover up'the 4/9, how we're going to
-6 interpret, you know, what we said on 4/9, how we're going to 7
make it now consistent with whatever we're going to say this 8 time. I think that is some~ evidence of additional 9 conversations occurring. 'And Mr. Hairston has; stated.in-- 10 well, in the white paper in the questions the'NRC asked of 11 Georgia Power in-August of 1990,; they indicated to the NRC 12' that Mr. Hairston himself was the one that-worked with a 13 staff member to prepare all those draft' cover letter 14 revisions. 1 15 Q Yes. I know you covered the draft cover letter 16 revisions very--in a lot of detail in your allegation that
- 17 came off of your--in.your computer--
l 18 A Right. ! 19 Q --printed allegation. ! Yes, I'm well aware of l 20 those. Continuing with some of these questions from--then. l 21 I believe, we're probably about through with them. 22 [ Pause) i 23 Q Earlier I asked.you.if you had ever presented any 24 kind of a written diesel test' plan tol George Bockhold and, I- i 25 believe, you answered that you hadn't? t l 1 i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
-Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 j
(202) 293-3950
~
4 159 4 l' A That's correct.
'2 Q I Are you aware of anyone.that did, in fact, give l
3 Bockhold a diesel test plan? I 4 A I' don't remember that'anybody wrote a compl'ete, i-
')
5 2 you know, before-the-fact determination'of these are all the. -. 6 i tests.that we're going to do because along the.way.it wasi ] 1 7 -t
- ' decided to add new tests. And basedfon results of other. -
& 8 . tests, new tests.were added. so'I don't remember any- ! 9 i
- document of a listing of tests,.you know, we're going to'do i
10 before the fact. Along the way,.yes, there were--there were: l -11 various test schedules. There'were various lists developed 1 12 s for presentation purposes that we have?done these testsLandL l I 13 it listed, you know, tests we were going'to'do.. i 14 But, you know,'with regard to your- st comment, 15 you know, I think after this event occurred, you know--and
- 16 i
it was in a staff meeting or maybe a PRB meeting, you know,
- 17 i I tried, you know, from my management position to direct the.
! 18 i appropriate people to the philosophy I~ thought we ought to
- 19 take in testing these diesels and.said that there ought'to !'
- 20 i
'be a three-part test program to test these diesels. And 21 ene, there was a test program was needed to determine the 22 root cause.
4 And there was a test program needed to make 23 v them operable again and that--and that may or may not have~ _ 24 been operable in the--in the tech-spec sense.. Okay. ; 25
- And then there was a test program to assure 1
l - 1 i ! i l l ANN RILEY & ASSCOIATES, LTD. Court Rep;rters t 1612 K Street, NW . Suite 300 Washington, ; 2 20006 i'
' (202)'Ie- e50 i
- l
-- , , , - , . , - . - - . - - . - . . . - . , ...- -~ ,
'160 1- reliability.
And those were the three elements that I tried
~ 2J to indicate, you know, we needed. We need to. figure out ,
3 'what's wrong, what.the root cause was, what the-failed 4 component was,'and get that firmly determined, the firm ' 5 determination of root cause, to correct-it And then we can 6- go about, you know, getting.these machines operable to.run 4 7 again. And then not only getting them operable,:you know, l s a verifying that.we have the required reliability-to support a- ; 9 return to power operations. And, you'know, that was the t 10 test program I tried to articulate. I never wrote--I never Li 11 wrote that down and, to my knowledge,-it was never worked up 12 in a detailed-- 13 LMR. KOHN: Hello. I J 14 THE WITNESS: --in a detailed list of testing. 15 MR. ItoslNSON: I Can you hear -- have you. heard 5 16 anything at all on.that, Stephen? ,
- 17. MR. KOHN: Excuse me.
1 18 MR. ROBINSON: Did.you hear anything at all'of- ) l 19 what Allen just said about the test program? 20 MR. KOHN: No. It faded out, but we can just move-21 on. 22 .MR. ROBINSON: Okay. 23 BY'MR. ROBINSON: 24 Q And-- 25- MR. KOHN - You just try to keep your voices a ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. ! Court Reporters { 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite _300. i Washington, D.C. 20006 j i (202) 293-3950-i
l 161 1 'little louder. l 2 MRi ROBINSON: Right. , 3 MR..KOHN: 'Cause I can follow most of it, but- ! i 4 every once in a while, you fade out.a little. ' e So just try 5 to keep it just one little-decimal point'above normal. -l i 6 MR. ROBINSON: Well, maybe we're getting'a:little i 7 tired.
.t
'i 8 MR. KOHN: Yeah. Well, why don't;we7take'a break?. .[ 9, MR. ROBINSON: Well, I'm just about at the'and of. 'l 10 this point of bringing forth some questions that.were i 11 brought forth'by OGC and enforcement'and NRR, so-I'think we, 1 12 'can continue with those. ! 13' MR. KOHN: Okay. ( l 14 { Pause) e I i- 15 MR. KOHN: ' Hello. ~ 16 MR. ROBINSON: We're reviewing questions right ,. 17 now. e. 18 MR. KOHN: Okay. 19 MR. ROBINSON: Okay. 4 I think thatLpretty well 20 concludes the additional supplemental questions that' I had 21 regarding this issue. Why don't -- why don't.-- it's'now 22 3:37. Why don't we take'a break, Allen, and you decide if 23 there are'any-final comments or' issues that you want-to 24 bring up to go on the record at this point that pertains to 25 the diesels and the reliability of the diesels and the-- ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES,.LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
I l l 162 1 1 MR. KOHN: Right. Al-- ! 2 MR.. ROBINSON: --reporting of that. ! 3 MR. KOHN: --do you want to talk-- ' l 4 THE WITNESS: Yeah. ' l 5 MR. KOHN: --or do you want-- i
; 6 THE WITNESS: Yeah. '
I'll--we'll--we'll talk off 7 the record. I I Pardon. B MR. KOHN: I 9 MR. ROBINSON: Yeah. It's now -- it's now 3:37 I 1 10 and we're off the record. ,
) ! 11 [Off-the-record discussion 3:37 - 3:45 p.m.] j 12 MR. ROBINSON: It's now 3:45 and we're back on the
- 13 record.
14 BY MR. ROBINSON: ' 15 Q Mr. Mosbaugh, are there any additional comments 16 that you would like to make pertaining to your allegations 17 of false statements regarding these diesels? 18 A I guess I'd like to--I'd like to_try to cover 19 another area of false statements about the diesels and then, 20 I guess, after that, I'd like to--I'd like to just give 21 maybe a little bit of overview of the way I see the diesels 22 -being sold to the NRC to be reliable based on statements of 23 error and on starts and on the testing-- 24 MR. KOHN: Hello. 25 THE WITNESS: --and on the testing done, you know, i ANN RILEY & ASSO2IATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, !; W . , Suite 300 Washington. ~ 0.'20006 (202) ;-- ??50
163 1 based on the fact that they failed, you know-- 2 BY MR. ROBINSON: 3 Q ,Okay. ; 1 4 A --in a summary fashion. But.first, let's ' j ust-5 cover that other area of false statement. -The COA letter, - 4 6 which I first saw'on the loth of April,.1990,.likeLI said, 7 there were two areas that kind of. jumped out as being--as 8 being suspicious. uAnd when I--when I read it and was handed 4 9 it in thatLmeeting and-read it, you know, I looked at those - 10-areas and I thought, hmm onomatopoeia, you know, these look l 11 funny and so I started looking into them. 'And the first one i 12 that I looked into was the statement about air, quality and~ , 13 we'll focus here.specifically on dew point. The statement 14 is made--and if you have the COA ther', e we can just quote 15 right from it so I don't have to paraphrase. 16 [Mr. Robinson proffers document to the witness.] 17 A Item 4, page 3 freading] GPC has reviewed air 18 quality of the DG air system including dew point controls '
- 19 and has concluded that air quality is satisfactory. . Initial 20- reports of higher than expected dew points were later 21 attributed to faulty instrumentation. And then--
4 22 Q Unquote. 23 A Unquote. ] And then there's a little bit more, but-24 I'd like to focus on those sentences. 25 Q Okay. ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
'l 1
i ! I 164 1 1 A t What-I did is I--like I said, this was the first-
- 2 thing that
? I--that I looked at because I knew we were having 3' trouble with air quality and-we were having' trouble i 4 i k. specifically with dew points._ And so I asked one of the
- 5 engineers to look into that and give me'information about
- 6 it.
i I believe his name was Tim Steele, I'think. 'And he ., 7 .1 (
.gave me a package of information which-I gave you, and'when .
8 I I looked at that package of'information, it'became quite
; 9 apparent'that the' air quality wasn't satisfactory with-10
- respect toLdew point.- And what is satisfactory? Okay.
4 11 i Well, there was an NRC generic letter and'it has a special'
- 12 number.-
I.can get it'for you if you want; but.I think you~
- 13 probably know what it is.
And it's-in:the FSAR and-I
- 14 believe that that specific generic letter was signed as a 4
15 signed response of George Hairston. , i 4 i 16- Q i So-this -- is this an NRC generic; letter or a-- 1 4 17 A It's -- , i I i 1B Q. --Georgia Power? + 19 A i 5 It's a Georgia' Power response to a generic. letter.
- - 20 Would you like me to get it? I mean, I--
1 21 Q You can get it if you'd like. I-- i i 22 A Okay. Well, let's just--I:can get it in about=a- i { 23 few seconds.
! 24 Q Okay.
25 [ Witness exits room 3:49 - 3:50 p.m.] 2- l ANN RILEY & ASSCOIATES, LTD. l Court Reporters ^ 1612 K Street, N W', Suite 300 i. Washington. : . 20006
.(202) :- !?50
~
-i
- 165' 1 A There's a generic' letter from the NRC. It's an-2 NRC document. i 3 .
Q .Would you identify'it. 4 A Well, actually, what I have here-is an NRC 1 5
.information notice, but there's also--that's'an NRC document
]i 6- and then there's also a generic letter. .
7 ! Q What's the. number of the information-notice?' ' 8 A Okay. The NRC information notice is' number.87-28'. 9 Q Dated? 10- A Dated June 22nd, 1987. 'I 11 Q And the document-- 12 MR. KOHN: -Al- - I 1 13 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 14 MR. KOHN: Are you talking?: j 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am. We'll talk up, i 16 MR.1KOHN: A little louder. , 17 THE WITNESS: 'I And this response here:is titled { 18 Vogtle Electric Generating Units 1 andL2, Operating Licenses i 19 NPF-68 and NPF-79, generic letter number 88-14,-Instrument. 20 Air Supply System. Problems Affecting Safety-Related' 21 Equipment. And this is a response, and this response.here 22 is signed by George Hairston. 23 BY MR. ROBINS'ON: J 24 Q And what is the-date of that? l 25 A' i The date of the response is signed by Hairston is. ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
' Court Reporters 1612 K Street, P.W., Suite 300 :
Washington, D C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
d 1 166 l l j ' 1 the-17th of' February 1989. ~ And in that Georgia Power 1: 2 SONOPCO responds to' instrument air qualityLat Vogtle, but'
- 3 the area we want to focus on is diesel. instrument air 'cause i
4 this responds to both the instrument air system and.the ~
~
5-l diesel. There -- now,.theD- on page 3 quoting.from the 1
-1 j 6' response, (reading] .the maximum dew point acceptance-7 criteria for the VEGP diesel air start system has been e 8
- established asl50 degrees Fahrenheit'at' system pressure, see 3
-t
- j. 9~ FSAR table 9.5.6-1. And so that's~the statement in it an'd' I i
.10
' that's' thel acceptanceL criteria.- It~is 50. degrees Fahrenheit .
1 j 11 ' dew point at' system pressure- . 1 [ 12- Q Okay. 13 A- So what I found out when I hadithe engineerflook 14 into this statement was'that there had been majorfproblems1 l 15 with the diesel instrument-airisystem and there's-just--
- 16 there's one air system. There's starting air
- and control l
j 17 air, and it comes off the same system. -And what.I found out i 1 18 was there's air dryers. There's refrigerant-type air-dryers
~
19 in that system to lower the dew point of the air to meet the
- 20 acceptance criteria. And the reason why you haveLto
- have a !
21 low dew point is the HVAC controls for those diesel. rooms. 2 22 The lower limit of temperature control and' design for those' 23 ; rooms is 50 degrees Fahrenheit. 24 So.if the dew point of'the air system would ever: 25 rise:to 50 degrees and if the room were~ cool at 50 degrees,. 1 i V. . a
- ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters i 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 i Washington,.D.C.'20006 2 (202) 293-3950 o 1 J w > ,- r e r -
.w . e - - , , , , - - , - - -_.- _ _,n.- . . _ , , . - ., a -,- a > ..a..
)
~167 1 which is its lower limit of temperature, then condensation 2 could occur in the air lines, in the: control air-lines,.and .]
'3 these are fluidics / pneumatic-type controls.and any' water in- ,
4 those lines would make the whole' control' system goihaywire. 5 So that's where the acceptance criteria comes~from.. And: 6; what I found was'that due to maintenance problems and not doing proper corrective'maintenancen air dryers were out of.
~
'7
.i a
8 service. And according to the engineer, where they.had besn' l 91 out of service'for a year or more. 'Well, withino--with.no; 10 ~ air dryers in the system,.obviously,fthe-dew points were- . . .
. . i 11 going to be high, very high,-and probably about' saturation i
l 12 because when you compress. air, it becomes' saturated. .In 13 fact, you have to. drain water out of the receivers.- 14 If you've ever operated an air compressor and you: 15 open.the drain on the bottom of an air compressor, water-16 comes out. So when you-compress afr, you-squeeze ~it down, J 17 it becomes saturated, and'the dew points rise way up. And )
, 18 if you don't have air dryers _crerating, youiget real high 19 dew points. 'So specific' measurements were taken~and'that-20 problem has caused diesel problems and diesel failures at-21 other plants and that's the reason why these generic letters 22 were issued among other things. And so when!this. accident 23 occurred on March 20th, obviously there was some. keen -
24' interest in whether or not the air quality and"the--and the I 25 dew' point and water in the system had been a contributing: I 4 3 ANN RILEY & AS;OCr*!.ES, LTD. Court Repor ers 1612 K Street, N,W., Suite 300 Washington. f.0. 20006 (202) :s; 1950
', _ , . , , . , -w .,,....-,.,...,..b.
l - 2 .. 168 2 1- factor and it had been part of'.the root cause'. And so some. t 2 measurements were taken,'and what I;found out was that, 3 like, from maintenance work orders--and'they're documented 4 specifically in 'some of those allegations I gave the NRC.and-
- . 5 I gave you, Larry.
6 Il named the work orders, and these-work orders 7-show dew points 80 degrees, 90 degrees, you know,~very.high, 4
- 8. clearly higher than the acceptance criteria. That. l
, 9' . acceptance criteria:is pretty much black:and white. If r 10 you're above 50 degrees, you could claim.that your air is-
- j. 11 1-satisfactory. If you're below 50--I'm sorry. If; your ~ dew.
12 point is below.50 degrees--strike what:I'said before. 13 i If your dew point-is below 50 degrees l Fahrenheit,.
- 14 then you could claim that'your air quality is
- satisfactory.
g 15 If your dew point is above 50 degrees Fahrenheit,~then you {. 16 could not claim it satisfactory. You would have to say that 17 your air quality was unsatisfactory. .And that's what an 18 acceptance criteria means. s 4 It's a bound. 'It's a -poinc
)
4 f 19 where it's sat or unsat. Obviously,.high dewfpoints'is 4 1 1- 20 lwhat's a problem, you know, not low dew points. ! ! So high dew . 21 points were found and they.were found in these work orders ~ :I l 22 and, I think, like on sometimes.in -- there were dates ~in e d 23 March and I think there.were dates in' April-- i ] 24 Q Of 1990? 25 A Of 1990. And but even worseJis what I'found from-
~
v i: 3 ANN RILEY E. ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300-Washington, D . C .. 20006l { (202) 293-3950
- i
l 169 1 the engineer is they hadn't.been checking them,_you know, .] 2' when the air--when.the dryer was out'of service. There was i a 3 a whole period of time,.like in '89 and earlier, when.they 4 hadn't even--there was no data. Okay. And'some of the data-5 that you looked at was. scientifically impossible,'like it' l 6 was 10 degrees Fahrenheit. We--you couldn't have that even. 7 That was below the--it.was below the freezing point. So j 8 there was all kinds--the data was real funny. It was ; t 9 nonexistent. They hadn't been checking'it, but we're 10 still--it's'not that they just hadn't been checking'it.- We 11 knew the air dryers were out of service. ~It was a i 12 maintenance problem. There were parts on order. There was i 13 a compressor and a fan out, and the. parts were on order.. 14 And so the--this system wasn't even running. And ! 15 so -- and after this site area emergency happened, there was i j 16 some more focus to get some measurements on it. i And when we ! 17 started getting measurements on it, the measurements were 18 bad. They exceeded the acceptance criteria. The air ! 19 quality was unsatisfactory. And, I guess, the worse thing 20 of all is that--is on the very day that George Bockhold went 21 to Atlanta to--and that afternoon when they gave this ( 22 document to the NRC stating that the air quality was l 23 satisfactory-- 24 Q When you say this document, you're talking about l l 25 the April 9th COA letter? 1 I ANN RILEY & ASSC0;ATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N w., suite 300 Washington, ; ; 20006 (202) ;- 950 i
.. - - ~ . - .- -, -- .
[ 170-i 1 -- A April 9th COA letter. The very day--the--that--I' 2 think the' day before and the very day:the measurements'of 3 the dew point were--exceeded the acceptance. criteria, were' 4 i unsat and George Bockhold knew it. Juul I participated in a' -! 5 conversation with George-Bockhold where he acknowledgedTt hat 6- he knew on that very day that.he had--that he had a bad ' 7 reading, an 80 degree about dew - . Fahrenheit dew point. ; 8 Q 'Was that on unit 2?' 9 A Well, there were'ones on unit 2 and on unit 1, on l 10 both units. 11 Q And was - ,were these-high dew point readings at 12 this point in time a result of faulty instrumentation?- 13 A No,.they weren't. These were' confirmed i 14 I measurements because what happened was in the--in the. { 15 beginning maintenance, I think,.had~a couple.of different 16 instruments to measure dew point.with, and they had problems 17 I using them or they weren'h femiliar withiusing them.. But. j l 18 i some of the engineers got involved and told them which- ! 19 instruments to use and other' instruments were used and the-- 20 and the high values were confirmed. And so these high 21 values I'm talking about were real accurate' data. Okay. 22 They were not a measured condition that was high when, in ! 23 fact, the actual air quality was satisfactory. No, that-24 wasn't--that wasn't the case. And so that's really the 25 second sentence'here. You know, .the'first sentence says-ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES,'LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 < (202) 293-3950
1 1
- 171 l
1 -and,.you know -- and George Bockhold's going to Atlanta' 1 l, .
\
2 making this' statement and he knows they were bad. And he-
- 3. makes some' reference in one conversation about, you know, (
- 4 how they were kind of embarrassed because Milt Hunt picked 5- up on one of.these. Well, that was just one of a variety of i
i 6 readings thatLwere bad. i
'i 7 And then the second sentence [ reading) initial-
- 8 reports of higher than expected dew points were later. !
! l 9 attributed to faulty. instrumentation.
- Well, that--you know, {
10 ! 1 you read that. That--if I read that, I--that says well,. l 11 ! i yeah, we may have reported some high values but in reality : 12 they were bad--they were inaccurate readings and the true ) 13 dew points met specifications. That's what it says.to-me,
~ ~
14 and I think that's what it meant--means to the NRC. The NRC l 15 ! indicated that's what it meant'to them in the ASLB I 16 proceeding. And that's false. That's ,not.true.- There were 17 accurate readings taken at the time this letter was written-18 and before that were high, that were unsatisfactory. And i 19 despite that fact, Georgia Power put in writing that one, 20 it's satisfactory and they lied about the reason why there 21 were high readings. They--the readings were good readings. 22 And, like I said, I had a fairly extensive write-up and ! 23 discussion with the--with Engineer Tim Steele, and there' i 24 were some follow-up discussions that are-documented on.a' ! 25 tape recording where Mr. Bockhold acknowledges that he knew I
)
ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006' i l (202) 293-3950
J l I l 172 i i the readings were high. ~ And he makes--and'in that :
'2 conversation, he'doesn't mention that it was a bad reading,
~
3 that was.an--I'll say, an inaccurate reading. He doesn't,
}l 4 'in that conversation,iattribute.the high reading to.an 5 inaccurate reading. Okay. -He knew that at that' point,.you 6
know, the instruments, the detection instruments.were being. 7 used properly'and these were high values. And the reason 8 why one of the engineers'also speaks up in that reading--in 9 that meeting with Bockhold-and says well, you know, why that 10 is, and:he said they left the instrument air dryer off i 11 again, you know. And that was--maybe I think it was Paul 12 Kochery. You know,' he even told Bockhold why the reading 1 l 13 was high, you know, because, you know,.thhy had left the-14 dryers:off. If--when you leave the' dryers off,~the readings . 15 are going to be unsatisfactory.
, is 'And this system, this air system had.a' terrible'
! 17 . history, a terrible maintenance. history ofJinadequate. 18 corrective maintenance and leaving these dryers out of 19 service. And the operators themselves', even after the 20-maintenance was completed, had a bad habit of not assuring . 21 that these dryers were in service 'cause that was what-
- l. i 1
22 happened with the bad readings on the 9th.
. 23 Q Had you had the. history or problems in the 24-operation of a diesel as a result of air quality problems?. !
25 'A 'It's hard to say, okay, because this kind'of ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. j Court Reporters 1612 K Street,.N W.. Suite 300 Washington, . 20006 (202) ; '. f50
- l. i
f 173 1 1 problem can manifest itself in a lot of different ways. . And-j
~
2 we had--it turns out in retrospect, when"you look back, for-
\
- 3 example, CALCON switches,'there was'a terrible maintenance b {
- _ 4 operating history of CALCON switches.- CALCON switches had- 1 4 5 -you know, I'think the IIT report identified, you know,;some '
t
- 6 69, I think it was, or so failures'of CALCON switches. cWere ;
7 -those--some of.those previous failures, you-know, anyf result { B of air problems? Well, maybe.- We:had--we had some problems ., q 9 .that were identified inlsome of the. control, logic, in:the 10 fluidies, and in a thing called a P3' interlock.
]
You know, 1
- 11- there were other! problems with
- the--with the diesel, the l
l 12 so-called air-start pilot solenoid valves,' problems timt-- ^
)
13 were not logged.by operators and only found- -
-?
.)'
- 14 MRi KOHN
- A1, you~ keep fading.- I
- 15 THE' WITNESS Okay. Problems not found by.
16 operators and later logged'and reported to the NRC under-- 17 and I think of part 21-issue,'you know.1 . Air-start-solenoid . 18 valves, they all--they're all from~this same system,fyou i j 19 know. So it's hard to--it's hard to say whether- there .had-
- 20 been an operating history that was affected by-this'or not.
21 That's why--that's why the NRC was concerned about this, ~ i 1 22 That's why they wrote the generic letter because:they knew-I 23 how-insidious an air quality or' dew point problem, you know, L 24 .could be in a diesel system that utilized air and pneumatic J 25 controls. So--but the maintenance history was very bad and ] l'~ ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
- Court Reporters 1612 K. Street, N.W., Suite 300 !
i ; Washington, D.C. 20006 !
- (202) 293-3950 -l i
m
i
- 174
. I was known about. And again, Georgia. Power needed to relieve 1
- 2 NRC concerns in this area. An NRC man had picked up on a-3 high reading. Okay. You know, Bockhold says Milt Hunt 4 picked up on this high reading. Well, they needed'to '
l 1 5 . dismiss that, you know. And so, you know, it's. dismissed ;
- 6 here. It says initial reports of higher than expected dew i
l 7 l i points were attribated to faulty measurements, faulty . ! 8 instrumentation. 'l , 9 BY MR. ROBINSON: 10 Q What do you think they meant by initial reports? ! 11 A Well, I don't know. , Maybe the ones the NRC knew 12 about. 13 Q Okay. 1 14 A : 1 Maybe' this one Milt Hunt picked ty) on. You know, i
- 15 maybe the one--I believe there was some concern by some of 1 16 i
4 the NRC people about this when they--wh,en they got wind of a 17 high--of a high reading. Okay. And when you read this, if 18 you were one of those people sitting in a big meeting, you i 19 know, assessing whether to give this plant. permission to 20
- restart and you knew there was a high reading and then you 21 hear, well, the initial reports had been attributed to !
- 22 faulty--and you basically say, oh, okay, well, it was a bad i i
- 23
. reading and in actuality, what they've done since proves 24 that the air really was good and they just measured it 25 inaccurately. - ANN RILEY & ASSO :ATES, LTD.. 1 Court Rep:rters 1612 K Street, i; W Suite 300 Washington. ; ' 20006 (202). ; - - -50
i l
. l
! 175 ,
)
1 l Q When, in fact, that was not th'e case and Bockhold i i- 2 l knew of a high reading with-good instrumentation being used- ! 3 properly the day before he came over to -- 4 A Yeah. And the--and the engineers. knew. The 5 engineers all knew that their current readings, the reading- ! 6 were being done with multiple instrumentation. One of the 7 work orders after they got the high reading, they went out ' ! 8 with three different types of instruments and independently 9 confirmed with each instrument, you know, the reading,*you , 10 know. So maintenance knew that the bad--so- called bad i 11 readings were-- ! 12 Q True, t f 13 A --were accurate, true and accurate. 14 Q Truly bad readings. I i 15 A Yeah. 16 Q Truly bad dew points. , 17 A And it's documented on work orders and the I is engineers knew it, you know. Yet with all that knowledge on ! j 19 site, this is what we--this is what we go to the NRC with. 20 And I found it very--very false and misleading. And when I 21
- you add to the history, you know, the more than a year of 22 operation with no dryer in service, you know, with this 23 i
equipment, you know, and you can't even get--you can't even 24 resurrect data, you know, on this. I couldn't even get any 25 data prior to nineteen--seems like 1989. You know, Plant i l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. r Court Reporters i ! 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 ! l (202) 293-3950 l
I l 1
-176 <
' \ 1 vogtle went in service, you know, .nitially in nineteen ' 3 2 eighty- '87 in.the beginning and-- ; , 3 Q Okay. I 4 A --so-- 5 Q Any other comments.with respect to the-- l
- 6 l MR. KOHN
- Hello.
)
7 BY MR. ROBINSON:-
.I 1
/ i 8 Q -- with.te dew points and the air quality or do j 9 i you-- 1 4 10 A Well, I--you know,'I--I've tried--I documented 11 4 those as best I could in that--in that other submittal. And' 12 then I'll--I'll also kdd that the taped conversation of 13 Bockhold--and in response to, you know, an earlier' question, 1 i 14 you know, delay in informing my management of this, as I 15 indicated, the first thing that I really jumped into was 16 this air quality thing. And, you know,,I had that memo to-17 Bockhold, I think it was the very next day, you know, about . 1 1 18 stating that, you know, hey, - this wording here M>out it 19 being satisfactory, that it probably wasn't satisfactory, i 20 what we told the NRC, you know. And I gave him a memo on 21 the 10th and--I think it was the 10th. i 22 Q 10th or the lith. 23 A Or the lith. And, you know, then I--then I, after 24 I exhausted my review on this one under the starts. But a 25 meeting occurred with a lot of the engineers, you know, and ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES,-LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 , (202) 293-3950 )
e + - a .,x- a w .e p . m, y ~ ...u.- s.a a - 4 .u. , x.,.s,.
...p. ;4' -
177'
'l Bockhold, you know, telling him about--you know,. telling him-2 about the-' bad readings.and.then he said,:you.know, the day I.-
L L
.3 :was goingLto:Atlenta, you know,.I heard about:the badi l- .4 reading.
l
- i. 1'
~
5 'O 'You alco indicated that you--I bel.ieve:youiwanted 6- to summarize-- 7 'A q
-Yeah. '
' ),
B Q --the overal1~---
.)
-9 JA The overall- .
10 -Q '--picture.
-11 A The--you know, when we talk.about this~ diesel.and?
12 - these false. statements,.these fmise statements-were-made to~ 13 get permission to restart to--with the air quality to( ; 14- alleviate the'NRC concerns'that air. quality might be--you' i l
-)
is ' know, have a~roleein~this-- , 3 l 16 .MR. KOHN: Al'-- '1
, j l 17 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 1 Have a~roleJin this' accident.
~
L . 18 And the other ones were-in response tola very obvious 19 concern of the NRC: are your diesels operable?'are.they' 20 reliable? are they ready _to support a return to power l 21 operations? which requires both diesels' fully reliable. You ! 22 know,'.the NRC.has regulations and requirements on this. And' l 23 the NRC requires--and it's part of the' safety analysis of 24 the plant that this emergency power,.this backup emergenc'y 25 safety power system has:to-have a 95-percentLreliability per ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters-1612 K Street, N.W.. Suite 300 Washington, ; . 20006 (202) I' .:950 I
< 1
4
^
l l 178 1' diesel _and theJsystem as a whole has to have'a 99 percent
~2 reliabilityi Those_are the requirement's'that the-NRC has 3 set up for a diesel system, the system at Vogtle,~ for that 4 plant to operate safely. :And they. require' initially that 5 that reliability be demonstrated through testing. 'And 6' you're required to do a total of 69' consecutive tests,nvalid-
~
7 tests, not just--not just any old test, not'just'a. l one-minute test. 8 Okays 9 You have to loaded runs, you know, valid loaded' 10 tests and have a success. And, you know,1to me this site l
- 11. area emergency, you know,'which -- a blackout,-you know, I 12 total plant bl'ackout at mid-loop, you know, demonstrated:
13 that there was~a major problem. The required redundancy 14 wasn't there._-The reliability wasn't there. The: safety 15 systems were unable to function. And it all'came down to 16 the reliability of these diesel generators. And,among'other 17 things, one-of--one of the' key causes was determined 1to;be~ 18 CALCON switches. And the CALCON switches had a terrible 19 maintenance history as indicated in the taped conversations 20 in the critique, for example, from Marci 23rd. The - 21 maintenance people acknowledged that they had known about 22 CALCON switch. They:said.they were horrible; they'were L 23 junk. :You know, how the hell can you put something like 24 -this on a diesel. .They knew that every--that they had.t'o be 25^ replaced or recalibrated every time they were used.- Andiso,
~
ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD'. Court-Reporters 1612'K Street, N.W.,' Suite'300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202)'293-3950
1 4 a 179 [ s 1 you know, and they've known about.this'for years, and there i 2 was a terrible maintenance operating history with these' , a 3 CALCON. switches. - i
- 4 1 So in order to get this plant back up again,'you i
- 5. know, we surely would have to prove that welhad identified !
6 the root cause,-that we had corrected thefroot'cause, and we 7 had demonstrated through tes' ting that the diese11was lioth 'i 8 operable and reliable.. Well,-you;know, when you look'and i i 9 see'what we did, you know, well, first, we made false-4 10 statements about how many times these diesels had been' i 11 started. And it is'that successive testing which(attests to 12 reliability. c Everybody's used to that. . The NRC's used.to 4 13 that. That's the way they. wrote.their;regula'tions is that' 14 successive tests is what establishes. reliability.~ And to- > t 15 get a 95-percent reliability just in layman's terms'would ' 16 require about 20 starts. i.. If you failed.once in'20,fthat ! 17 j- 1 would be a 5-percent failurefor a~95-percent reliability,. 4 j 18 you know, requirement. Now, the NRC regulations are a i l 4 19 i little more complicated'than that, but just in sIimple terms, . 20 you have to demonstrate the successive testing. 4 21 Well, they didn't have that manyftests. ButLehen 1 22 when you look at the tests that they did themselves and-that 4 l s 23 they took credit-for, you know, it-just goes further to show i 24 that the testing they did didn't prove the reliability. 25 Because the way these CALCON switches were.failing, the way l i i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Rep;rters 1612-K Street, N W., Suite 300 Washington : C. 20006
- (202) .- )?50 l l
- e. . - - - - - - - ,. .- .. . - . - - .- . .- .
l 180 . i 1 the site area' emergency was created, was that the CALCON 2 switches.were subject toiset point drift. Okay. They were-3' ~ supposed to trip the diesel off at 200 degrees Fahrenheit,. 4 but they tripped the diesel off when'the temperature wasn't 5 ! close to that. And whyfdid.theyfdo that?' -Well, they.were- ' 6 -they.were kind of unreliable. Okay. .They were found to-7 have debris in them due.to. bad ~maintenanceLpractices. . They 8 were found to.have a-loose collar which actually. twisted-
- 9 them a little bit and' adjusted the set 1 point.-- a loosefset 1 10 screw that wasn't ever properly incorporated into the i 11 maintenance procedures for installation. The temperature 12 bath that Georgia Power used to calibrate ~it in:had? internal 13- flow blockage and didn't have uniform temperatures incit.
14 So there's this whole slew'of maintenance problems 15 and other things that caused these CALCON switches to have a o l 16 set point drift down maybe to 186 degrecs,lmaybe--the one f - - - ! 17 that was actually quarantined in'the site area-emergencyi -i 18 .l
- its set point had drifted down.to,'I:think, 186 degrees. !
19 And so with this drift, what happens sometimes is the diesel 20 was started, you know, loaded, you know, heated up, the 21 l temperature of operation moved up to the downward drift of. j i 22 the set point of the CALCON switchLand'then the diesel' L 23 tripped'off line- :And, you know,.so when you--when;you take. l 24- a look~back at all this testing, even~the testing even 25 though the words themselves were false that there weren't as I l l I LANN:RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. l Court' Reporters 1612 K Street, _N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006-
-(202)'293-3950 n: '
l l .. ... . . ,. - a.-,,. ....-+:..e - - , ,
4 5 161 -
- 1 1
many tests as they described, if you lookuatuthe very tests. 4
'2 that they did do, the' accurate number that they.did do,~you 3
look at them and you see some of those runs were only run- - 4 for--the. diesel was run for one minute. It was started a'nd L 5 run for one' minute.- In another case it was run for three 6 minutes. In another. case it was run-for five minutes. And:
~
7 you look.at the actual testing that you could have taken 8 ( credit for, it never subjected'those die'sels:to a tes,t that 9 would have' manifest the very problem that caused the' site 4 4 10 area emergency. 4 11
- .You start a big diesel like that up.and the 12 4
initial jacket waterLis 150 degrees, maybe-160 degrees. ! 13 It's a massive engine, several thousand; gallons of water,, 14 generates some heat,.but it doesn't heat up.but a few . 15 degrees in a--in a minute or's couple of minutes. So these 4
- . ; 16 tests that you did that are testing the. reliability, that we 17 conveyed to the NRC that tested the reliability, they never i
4
- le challenged the defect.
- They never challenged the defect of !
1 19 CALCON switches that drifted down into lower temperatures d { 20 ! way below their set point which prematurely tripped the l ). 21 diesel. So--and we didn't load--a lot of these tests, we ! 4 22 didn't load the machine. We didn't tie it to the generator i 1 23
.and let it produce seven--7,000 kilowatts of power and l
, 24 really lug it down and generate-that heat. 25 ' This was scientifically ^ illegitimate testing-that 4 l i i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 L Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 ! " i l
- ~. _ _ _ _ ___ __
182 1 was being falsely claimed to the NRC on exaggerated numbers 2 to take credit to get a restart. And I have a much better 3 perspective looking at-that now than I--than I did, you 4 know, when this was happening because I've had time to, you 5 know, really think about it and analyze it. But,zyou know, i 6 what we did and what we said wasn't right. You know, we 1 7 shouldn't have allowed and the NRC shouldn't have allowed-8 those diesels to be returned to service. Jmd the very fact - 9 that on May, after we got permission ~to return to. service, l 10 the very fact that on May 22nd of 1990, the diesel tripped i 11 seven times in the same day on CALCON high jacket water 12 temperature switches, you know, just proved that we weren't 13 ready to put that, you know, that'unitLback.on line. We 14 weren't--we shouldn't have--we shouldn't have been granted-15 - ' i 16 MR. KOHN: Hey, Al, I keep losing you. 17 THE WITNESS: Yeah. We shouldn't have been 18 granted permission to do it, and it was only after that-19 embarrassment, you know, did we really get serious, you 20 know, about it and get to the root cause, you know. That 21 unit was returned to service before the root cause had been j 22 corrected. The vendor--the vendor and the--and the site, i 23 you know, wanted, I guess, wanted not to have a major ! 1 24 problem, wanted to--wanted the CALCON switches ~to be able to 25 stay on there and not have to make a design change and i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. !
. Court Reporters ;
1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington. :- 7. 20006 (202) ;- '950 1 _ ._. _ .. . . .J
s
~;
i 183' ; 1 t hatever and ultimately, then after the-failures.in mid May, j
.2. you know,;then a design change.was made that cut'them outiof.
t 3 the circuit. And,~ you.know,-thats the big view on'this; j 4 thing and, you know, we didn't tell the. truth and we were i 5 1 granted permission to restart the; plant, you:know, based on-6 misrepresentation.- t 7 BY MR.-ROBINSON: -! 8 Q Well, I. appreciate those comments. Is there l 9 h anything else'that you'want to add to that'before we. wrap it 10 .up? 11 MR. KOHN: Hello. . 12 THE. WITNESS: We're in'a holding pattern. LWe have-13 a final question of is there anything'else. I 14 MR. KOHN: ;Why don't we--Al-- i 1 15 'I THE WITNESS: Yeah. I 16 MR. KOHN: That's the question, is there anything 17 else? That's the question on the table?.~ 18 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. j 20 MR. KOHN: What I suggested with Al during one of 21 our breaks was that when the transcript is' ready, that he go H 22 and review it in your office for correction and maybe at ! 23 that time if there's anything else he'd like1to add, that we 'I 24 could bring it up, call it to_your attention. ' i 25 MR. ROBINSON: Okay. ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. ' Court Reporters 1612 K-Street, N.W., Suite 300 i Washington, D.C. 20006 ) (202) 293-3950 ! I i
~. -
-i L .
l .. i l
.184. l
^
i l' MR. KOHN: That's my procedural suggestion. l.. 2 MR. ROBINSON: Well, that sounds acceptable to me . 3 BY MR. ROBINSON: ' D 4 Q 'Once again, I'll ask the fintl-question: are-5- there any other comments pertaining to the false--your t 6 allegations of false statements and1 subsequent. coverup'of
- 7. the false statements that-- '
8 'JL Yeah. We-- , 9 Q --you want to add?. ' 10 'A Yeah. -Larry,.we didn't, you know, when..-- when we t 11 first talked', we talked about five major documents. Okay. 12 You know, we haven't-talked about-- s h 13 Q- The revision to the LER-- 14 A --the rev and-- i 15 Q --and the August 30th letter. 16 A --the August 30th letter. And I guess I'll add 17 into that the QA audit. Okay. But that's_not one of,your 18 five documents, but, you1know, as. evidences as I've been -l i 19 l trying to convey of a continuing coverup and subsequent-
- 20 r
false statements made in other.submittals~on this as:being, 21 l you know, problems in themselves as;well'as. supporting 22 evidence of the initial allegations, you know, we have the' I
- 23 reasons submitted in those follow-ups and--and we have in 24 ,
L , .the--in the June 29th revision to the LER'the. restatement of l L- 25 all the wording in. terms of valid. Okay. And then we'have- ! i l l l 1 J004 RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. l L
. . Court Reporters 1612 K Street. N W., Suite 300 i Washingtor.. ! 7. 20006 I l
(202) ;-- 5950
-185l
{ 1- the attributing of the reason for the air-to the lack of a-- i ( 2 no. I'm sorry. .In the--yeah. We have attributed to-in 4 3 that one, in June 29th, '90, we have the--it attributed to 4 ' diesel start recordkeeping practices and the lack of'a 4 51 ' definition of the comprehensive test program and-- 6 Q And you're saying that those weren't the real 7 reasons that that--
- 8 'A Well, no. '
s . l 9 Q --data was bad? I 10 A No. They weren't, because the diesel start i l I
- 11 i recordkeeping practices, if you bothered--if you bothered to i I
- 12 get the logs, the control logs out of the main control room l
> I 13 or the shift supervisor logs, if you bothered to get both of . 14 them or either of them, you could not have supported your' i 15 statement. And the fact that there was a QA audit and that 1,6 they did find some discrepancies between them, those 17 discrepancies would not have caused you to make the error. j 18 okay. Yet, that's what they hang their hat on. Okay. 1md i 19 I find that misleading and a misrepresentation. The other j 20 thing is the--that it's attributed to the definition of the l 21 test program. Well, no, not really. True, there wasn't a 22' definition of the test program, but the reason why the words i 23 18 and 19 were put in there weren't because there was any 24 confusion or lack of a definition of the test program. They 25 were put in there because McCoy said that those were the ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters . 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
'186 1 numbers he wanted in there and Bockhold said, yes, those 2 numbers were right, that.they occurred after.the test 3 program. ~
4 MR. ROBINSON:- The court reporter is indicating a I t 5 need for a change of' tape. It's now 4:28 p.m. and we're off' 6 the record for just a minute. I 1 ! 7 [Off the record. momentarily) ; l 8 MR. ROBINSON: All right. -l It 'is still 4:28 and ! 9 we're back on the record.. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. So those weren't the reasons. 11 They weren't'the reasons why the errors were made. It's. 12 interesting that on the--on the same day, on June 29th,. 13 1990, the report from SAER from George Fredericks came out,- i 14 the report that had been initiated to verify the start. i i , 15- count. And that report concluded that there--that an error i 16 had been made. It concluded that the information was in' 17 error. And it said that it -- it.said that they did not-- 18 that they did not attribute a specific cause to--that they 19 did not find a specific.cause. Okay.. Yet, when we' wrote 20 the cover letter, then, you know, these--these specific you 21 know, causes-are--are mentioned. So, you know, there's some 22 disagreement between that QA report and what was. written -! 23 here but-- 24 BY MR. ROBINSON: 25 ! Q To your knowledge, were George Bockhold and Jimmy i ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 , i Washington, D.C. 20006
-(202) 293-3950 i
. = . - _ _ _
+
i 187 l 1 Paul Cash interviewed as-- 2 MR. KOHN: Hey, Al, I've lost you. ! 3 THE WITNESS: , Yeah. Larry's talking. ) i 4 MR. KOHN: .Then I've lost him. 5 BY MR. ROBINSON: 6 Q Were George Bockhold and Jimmy Paul' Cash j 1 7 interviewed as part of that QA audit-- { 8 A. What-- 9 Q --with respect to their start-- 10 A That's an excellent question,.because I-was a 11 little irritated at George Fredericks for his-- 12 Q George Fredericks being the SAER man that 13 conducted the audit or that supervised the conduct of the' ' 14 audit? - 15 A Yeah. It was the--the SAER guy on site. And I 16 was a.little disturbed at him because of the conclusions I 17 read in that audit and I confronted him with that. And I 18 said, George, I said--I said, do you know--do you know how I 19 those words really got in there, you know, how the !
, 20 phraseology really was in there. And I said, you know, you i 21 weren't on that call. Okay. And he acknowledged that they 22 did not--they did not look at that, that he-was not aware of 23 what had transpired on that call and how those words were 24 added into it. He was not aware, and based on his statement 25 to me that he was not aware, he wasn't on the call and he ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N W., Suite 300 Washington, 2. 20006 (202) I '- - '950
i-l l. l' i
'188 I I'
j. I was not; aware of what had happened'on the. call, I told him, L 2 I said, well, then how could_you--then how'can you draw a- .
'3 conclusion,.you know. .And so.my-- . j 4 MR. KOHN: Hello.
5 THE WITNESS: So my answer.is no. I'do not ^ i 6 believe that they did the appropriate ~ investigation of 1 7 asking George-Bockhold. And it would have been George 8 Beckhold because this was the LER, you know, or Ken McCoy,' N 9 you know, how did these words get in there; who put them in i 10 there; based on'what. t Okay.. And to my knowledge ~and based l 11 on my discussion with Fredericks, he did.not do that.- 12 Then, you know, in August 30th, then the. i 1 13 correction, the clarification to the COA comes out. Now; I l 14 you know, it's--I'm astounded at how it's.over 4M. months I 15 later, you know, that we're going to correct this statement, t 16 but now we.-hsve yet a different reason,,you know, comes up. ! 17 You know, you have to remember that whatever we're. talking ! 18 about here, because the words were.the same'or meant to 19 apply to both, you know, that the reasons oughtfte be the 20 same here, okay. 'cause we know in--from our earlier ' 21 discussions how the--how the wording was derived and how it l 22 came and it applied to the 4/9 as well as the 4/1'9; 23 But now on--now we had that there was confusion 24 due to two factors. You know, first there was confusion in. 25 the' distinction of a successful start and a' valid start. ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. l Court Reporters i 1612 K. Street, N.W., Suite 300 I
- Washington,.D.C. 20006
- (202). 293 3950 l
. _ _ _ ~ . . _ . . . -_ .
i. L - 1 L ! 189- ; 1 BY MR. ROBINSON: i 2 Q Let the record reflect that Mr. Mosbaugh isinow t 3 quoting from the August 30th letter from Georgia' Power to' 4 the NRC, signed by Mr. McCoy. , 5- A Yeah. That one was signed by McCoy for Hairston, 6 'right. And the first one was signed on~the--on June 29th: j 7 was nigned by Hairston And then~the second reading--reason ! 8- states that an error was made by the individual ~who. t i 9 performed the count of the-diesel starts and,_you know, that 10 individual, you know, to my knowledge, is Jimmy Paul Cash. ! 11 ! And so now we have. different, you know, different reasons, 1
'12 you know, applying to different document!s granted, but i
13-because of the way,they were created ~and worded, the , 1 14 ! reason--they were the same and they meant the'same. ~ They' !
.15 !
l f were intended to mean'the same and certainly,.the reason' ! l 16 should have been true, but the: reason is noneLof:these. 17 L And,'I guess, you know,_the other thing that I'd add to the i
-t i 18 record is.that on about August 30th, maybe August 29th, I !
19 participated as an observer in a meeting. .And I think it 20 i
'was a PRB meeting that Tom Green was holding and they were !
21 i l going over this August--what would be the August 30th ; 22 correction to the COA and in that meeting they_were 23 discussing--- 24 1 MR. KOHN: Hey, Al, you've got to talk a little L 25 louder. ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N W., Suite 300 Washington. *
!. 20006 (202) 24- 1950'
190 1 THE WITNESS: --they were discussing this--the 2 correction and the reasons and I was--I was getting a little 3 bit upset by all this rationalization about, you know, talk 4 of these confusion and comprehensive test program and all 5 this. And so I spoke up in that meeting out of frustration 6 and said, you know, why don't we just tell the truth, you 7-know; why don't we say that we were just negligent. Okay. 8 And well, with that, Tom Green cut the meeting off short and 9 says, well, I've heard enough, and dismissed it and they 10 went on and they issued this, you know, the way--the way it 11 came out. And, you know, that was--that was just, you know, 12 another event where it appeared-- 13 BY MR. ROBINSON: 14 Q Is that comment that you made on tape? 15 A Yes. Yes, it is.- 16 Q I'm aware of the--of at least,one meeting 17 regarding that August 30th letter in which Mr. Bockhold was 18 present and the--and two specific statements that talked 19 about failures on specific starts that were in a-draft were 20 removed from that draft. 21 A Yeah. This was another meeting. 22 Q This was a different meeting? 23 A Yeah. The meeting you're talking about, I recall. 24 was with Bockhold and it occurred in the war room on the 25 second floor of the service building. The meeting I'm ANN RILEY f. ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
L i-1 t 191' { 1 talking about'was a PRB meeting and, I~believe, occurred in. l i 2 Jim Swartzwelder's office. or Skip Kitchens', one of those 3 corner offices. It was in an office. It:wasn't in the war ! 4 room. I_think it may have been in swartzwelder's office. ! 5 Q And this would have-been either-- ! 6 A Right about-- l 7 Q --the 29th or the 28th-- 8 A Yeah. - 9 Q --or the 30th? j
^
10 A Yeah, yeah. ^i 11 Q Okay. Go ahead.- P 12 A So, you know, they didn't want tol hear,what I hadl l_ 13 to say about.-- 14 Q Negligence. t 15 A --about negligence and about what'I was trying to i 16 say was my observation of the real reason for the~ error 17 here. You know,.they didn't want to address that. i l 18- Q He just adjourned the meeting?_ r 19 A He said, I've heard enough, and he was--he was i 20 irritated and -- I've heard enough, and I don't know if we 21 adjourned the meeting, but we got off that topic. 22 Q This is Tom Green? 23 A Tom Green. Yeah, yeah. l l 24- Q Okay. I 25 A So -- you know, and so we have a continuing change { ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters i 1612 K Street, N.W., Suite 300 ! l Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 f
1 a. J . 1 192
- 1 in reasons, you know, for the' error, you know.
4 And then, 2 you know, the other thing we have is--and this'comes outi of. " 3 recent submittals in the ASLB proceeding -- is a continuing
- -4 changing of the definition of the comprehensive test (
5 program. And it's. changed--you.know, we--you have about-- {. 6 you've got about a half a dozen'to.a' dozen different e j 7 definitions of the comprehensive test program. -You'have the. 8
- definition that was created when'Bockhold said what he said .
p 9 on 4/19. Then you have the definitions that--and the. 10 reasons.that you have inithose various' draft letters just ~ i 11 before four- or just before. June 29. Then you have what's }
- 12 in your revision here on 4/29. It says,-if the--
4 13 Q. Six--on 6/29.
- 14 A On 6/29. Excuse me. If the comprehensive program.
a y 15 is interpreted to--or understood to be, you know, I think 16 that verbiage is in the copy we just looked at.- h 17 Q The definition of the-- 18 A of the comprehensive test' program. g 19 Q --comprehensive test' program was what caused--one l 20 of the causes of the -- l 21 A Well, but they:all--I think they also defined it. i.. 22 Q Yes. They did define it in that -- I
, 23 A .They-defined it in there, okay, on 6/29.
- j. 24 Q Right.
25 A~ Okay. And then during the--well, then--then the I l J004 RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. ' Court Reporters 1612 K Street, N W., Suite'300 Washington,. - 2, 20006 : i (202) *
- iso i
' l
n i [. il t , j
- 193 ,
- . 1- -QA audit' defines it-- '{
v . . 2 Q 'And that--' ^ . 3 A; L--in;the QA audit report. ,
~
l- 4- Q' And the definition offthe comprehensive 1 test-
- i. .
o ! 5 program in.the JuneL29th rev correspondsLto the-definition i'; .
-6 .in the QA audit? ,
!- 7 l A' Yeah.- 'I-think they're similar,:but"I'dlwant to- l 3 l [ '8; look~at.that-- '
- 9' Q' ~ Okay.- i i
m, , j
.- 101 A --you know,;before I fully agreed to that.- The 11 -other thing is'when the PRB, like on-'in.May/10th/May lith,-
[- 12 when we tried to revise the' LER,- that: I was pushing for the -
- l i 13-o revised LER',-the PRB struggled with the definition of-the' ,
14 comprehensive test. program. We'didn't knowTwhat it was,-
- i. : ,
15 what it should apply to. And so the PRB,'you know,.Lwhich . . - 16 included all' the , members ' including . members that'.were on = that - i: 17
- call like Aufdenkampe, you
- know, we decided whatlwe. thought' i
18 j those words meant and that was one: thing. ;Okay. And then- - c l' 19' l and then the QA audit decided what the' definition of the:- 20 comprehensive' test program was and then that letter states'
- 4 21 what the definition of the test' program was. . And then the
{ 22 NRC as part'of--in the IIT report - 23 MR. KOHN: Al, you've got to keep a little louder. 4-24 THE WITNESS: The NRC'and the IIT report talks'- 25 about the comprehensive test-program as they understood it' i 4
' ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
j
' Court Reporters 1612 K' Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.'C. 20006 (202).293-3950-
= r--,, -- ,c-- . -,_y ,w,- p-p_g-e.< gy97yp y,W g gg g9 y-y- se- r ry- , pp ---
- n. . .. . . - . ,. .- .
, ~194 1 and-- J 2 MR. KOHN: Al-- 3 THE WITNESS: . Yeah. 4 MR. KOHN: --louder. 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. And then - -let's.see. 6 There's--oh, in the--I think in some~of the white paper 7 responses, I think there's a discussion of. theLeomprehensiv'e 8 test program and what.was meant. And on and on, you know.- 9 And then--and then we get into the 2.206' petition, thej 10 petition responses, and now we get into the ASLB proceeding 11 and those responses, it keeps changing. . Okay. .It keeps ' 12 changing and I could, you know, I could,-you know,.try_to,. 13
.you know, piece that history, you_know, through andl 7 14 identify, you know, allithe starts and so~forth that 15 constitute that because, you know,-that's just another ones 16 of these things where as;the set of circumstances; changed-17 and as what questions are beingfasked and how'--and how.we're is backed into-a corner-in a particular way now, you know,cthat-19 these definitions are changing. And now the latest 1 thing; 20 you know, we have out of the ASLB proceeding-is the 21 comprehensive test program consists of that testing that 22 didn't require starting the diesel engines. That's the--
23 that's the definition we have now. Well-- , 24 BY MR. ROBINSON: 25 Q Is that the' latest GeorgiaLPower' definition? . ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reptrters ;
'1612,K Street. N1W , Suite 300 Washington. ! ' 20006 (202) :r 950 %
i 195: l 1 A- .That's the latest' Georgia Power definition 2 submitted'to the ASLB proceeding. .The comprehensive. test 3 program is the' testing of:the. diesel'that didn't require-4 ' starting.of the diesel engines. s' Q- And your-- 6~ A ~A: totally different definition than what-we've--
'7 than the; history tnat'I've just gone over..
8 Q' Your point being that' Georgia Power, changes 9-definition of=thefend of-'-or.the' comprehensive; control' test 10 program to> suit'the. circumstances-- - 11 A To' suit the circumstances, the challenges at the 12 time, and.to--and to make.~a previous false statement.come. 13 true by changing that definition. 14 Q 'I understand-what.you're saying.. Any ; final'.. 15 comments? 16 A I chink we've done final comments enough,'but-- 17 -MR. ROBINSON: All right. Well, I appreciate your 18 time today, Mr. Mosbaugh. It's now 4:43 p.m. and this 19 interview is completed. Thank you. 20 - [ Interview concluded at 4:43 p.m.].. 21 22 23 24 25 ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. Court Reporters 1612 K Street,-N.W., Suite:300 Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950
- .- . - .. -. .. . .- . . . ~ - -
I ITh-t i l l 1 i REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE l - i This is to certify that the attached proceedings ;j before the United States Nuclear Regulatory _ ' i Commission i i, in the matter oft i NAME OF PROCEEDING: i Interview of Mosbaugh i 3 DOCKET NUMBER: i j FLACE OF PROCEEDING Grovetown, GA I were held'as_herein appears, and that this is the. 'l original transcript thereof for the file of'the-United states Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken 4 by as and thereafter reduced to typewriting by =e i~ or under the direction of the court reporting 4 company, and"that the transcript is a true and ' accurate record of the~ foregoing. proceedings. t 4 - l *:
&ex/ /%$c/*
orricial Reporter-
- l. '
Ann Riley & Associates,-Ltd.. n 0 . i .' 1- ! 1 l .- l ! i i 4 g. a 4 , * ]- .
- d. k i ;
l-4 4
. . - _ - - . - . , - . , . , . . - . . , . . . . . . . . ..m. .-m_.. .,J,.-..._-- -.}}