ML20038A747
| ML20038A747 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 10/29/1981 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20038A746 | List: |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8111160363 | |
| Download: ML20038A747 (57) | |
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UNITED STATES
. NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION h
WASHIN GTON, D.C. 20555
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October 1981
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, OFFICE OF THE
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COMMISSION D$ TERMINATION REGARDING PUBLIC DISCLOSURE
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UNDER THE-GOVERNMENT IN THE SUNSHINE ACT OF:
Trariscript, of Briefing on Information Flow Concerning
- the TMI Accident, Part'2 of 2 Parts
- January 22, 1981, Pages 75 - 129 Pur uant to 10 CFR 9.108 (c) and 10 CFR 9.104 (a) (5), (6),
s (7) (c), a'nd (10), the Commission has determined.that the attached portions of the subject transcript should be released to the public.
The remaining portions of the transcript are being withheld from public disclosure pursuant to 10 CFR 9.104 as noted below:
Page/Line thru Page/Line Exemptions 93/17 97/7 10 CFR 9'.104 (a) (10) 113/23 123/16 10 CFR 9.104 (a) (6), (7) (c) 124/15 129/3 10 CFR 9.104 (a) (6), (7) (c) i
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BRIEFING ON INFORMATION FLoti CONCERNING TEE TMI ACCIDENT
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PART 2 OF 2 PARTS l
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l 75 - 129 DATE:
January 22, 1981 PAGES: _
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Telachens : (202) 554-2345 l
o 75 1
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
On the pressure spike 2
proposition is there a particular point when you think 3
Miller knew of it and knew of its significance and didn't r
4 report and that is the basis for the citation, or it is sort 5
of a general proposition that the NRC should have been 6
informed of this pressure spike indication soon after l'ts 7
occurrence on Wednesday and never mind who knew what up or 8
down the line?
9 PR. STELLO:
More the latter than the former. In 10 facta I can't tell you, and I don't know if we do know, when 11 Miller learned of it.
I think we asked the question and 12 maybe somebody does recall the answer.
It is more of the 13 latter scenario you described.
Sometime soon after the
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14 pressure spike there should have been hopefully an analysis 15 and that passed on.
It wasn't.
16 At some point they did know of the existence of 17 the spike itself.
As I said carlier, that is a little 18 difficult to establish with any confidence exactly when that 19 was and exactly when any inspector of ours knew about it.
20 There are facts that suggest that the two 21 individuals we have talked about we believe later in the day 22 were discussing a real pressure spike.
This citation is not 23 against an individual but it is against the licensae and we 24 didn't try to establish the time at which any one individual s
25 within the licensee's organization knew about it.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. MC.
400 VIRG;NIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
It seems to me that in any 2
accident or even some of the more exciting plant maneuvers 3
or transients but certainly in any accident when you get all 4
through you are going to be able to say here ate a number of 5
things which you didn't report to me or you didn't report to 6
se until much later and I now see you should have reported 7
those to me and you are going to be able to say now here are 8
some things you reported to me and they didn 't turn out to 9
amount to a hill of beans and they just confused the 10 communication channels and you would have been just as well 11 if you didn't tell me tnose.
I really wonder if this kind 12 of post-accident nit-picking is going to be very helpful.
13 Suppose I am the operator of Five Mile Island.
I
(
14 look at your citation and I say, well, gee, let's see what 15 that means in terms of, you know, suppose something happened 18 to my plant tomorrow what do I learn f rom this citation.
17 against Met. Ed. that I didn 't know before and what changes 18 did it make.
19 I look at that and I say, well, you know, and I 20 have read these transcripts because maybe you have made them 21 public or something lik e that, and say, boy, it looks to me 22 7tke those guys in the TMI control room, some of then 23 thought that was an instrument malfunction and some of them 24 t'ought it was another thing and some of them thought it 25 might be real and others thought it wasn't real and the guy ALDERSoN REPCRTING COMPANY,iNC, 400 VIRGIMA AA S.W, V/ASHINGToN, D.C. 20024 (202) 564 2345
77 1
who was in charge it is not very clear what he thought about 2
it.
He was apparently getting various kinds of stories and 3
he had to go see the Lt. Governor and didn't get back for s
4 two and a half hours or whatever it was.
5 Nevertheless, here is a citation which would have 6
carried a civil penalty if they had had some residual 7
authority which in my case will carry a hundred thousand 8
dollar levy against it if I get one of these.
What am I 9
going to do?
How am I going to sort out when something 10 happens in that control room which of those enunciator 11 signals am I now going to be able to say that is garbage or 12 tha t is trivial and I shouldn't report that to the NRC in 13 order to protect myself and be acting in a manner that is
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14 fully consistent with what the NRC expects of me as the 15 plant manager under my licensed conditions?
16 I think I am going to conclude that if out of tne 17 confusion around the pressure spike and the time of the 18 pressure spike and so on, if Met. Ed. should nevertheless 19 have gotten that together and up to us I am going to find it 20 pretty hard to conclude tha t there is any 21 out-of-normal-condition signal which will occur in my 22 control room during a reportable incident which I had better 23 not tell you people about as soon as it happens whether I 24 know what significance it is and even if I have reason to s
75 think it is nonsense, okay, otherwise down the line why I am ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2345
r-78 1
going to be facing a citation, a civil penalty and who knows 2
wha t' else.
3 I wonder if I can run a control room at a plant in
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4 an emergency with that kind of a levy against my attention 5
to what is going on-in the plant?
6 MR. STELLO If thay get that message they have 7
got the wrong message.
What is behind this is by God you l
8 look at your system and you make sure you distill f rss what 9
is soing on the important information and not whether or not 10 you report it to the NRC but to evaluate what is going on in i
11 that plant so that you can take the proper action.
I hope 1
12 that is what this is s11 about.
13 If the only thing we are dealing with is whether 14 or not we have an adequate system to tell the old NRC about i
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15 things, that is the wrong message.
16 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
That gets to your second and 17 not your first.
18 MR. STELLO:
I think it is all.
I think when we 19 take an enforcement action that there needs to be some 20 benefit hopefully derived both with respect to the 21 individual licensee and the industry.
22 If somehow they are getting the massago you 23 described, I think it is the wrong message and I think then 24 that is a basis to not go forward.
25 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
But, Vic, most of the I
ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGlhlA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C-20024 (202) 554-2345 i
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79 discussion so far as been what they should have told us.
2 MR. STELLO:
We are not talking about the other 3
hundreds of pieces of information.
It is the significant
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s 4
safety information.
5 CHAIRMAM AHEARNE:
Vic, for the first time you 6
have just covered though the point that they should.have 7
been analyzing and understanding themselves so that they 8
could determine what should be done.
9 MR. LTELLO:
Yes.
10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
This is the first time you 11 mentioned that.
The whole discussion has been focused on a
12 the relay of information to us.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
Well, that is what the
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14 whole investigation is about.
15 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
But, Vic, it doesn't help 16 either to say the pressure spike should have been, no matter 17 what they thought it was at first or didn't think it was, 18 that they should have investigated it and understood it 19 fully.
20 It doesn't help me to say that is what you would 21 have hoped.they would have done because, look, as far as I 22 can see on Wednesday Miller or whoever he left in charge in 23 the control room didn' t have what I would consider an 24 adequate bssis at that time to conclude that that particular s
25 instrument indication was significant enough to devote a ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGIN 4A AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON O.C. 20024 (202) 564-2346
4 80 1
piece of his limited human resource to tracking down at the 2
exclusion of all else.
3 You are making that determination that in fact 4
that was the case many days, weeks, months later and in the 5
light of enormous analysis and review and consideration of 8
the whole process.
7 What I have to face as the supervisor of Five Mile 8
Isl~and is that the decision on which of those 200 enunciator 9
signalc or 100 instrument readings was the crucial one_that 10 I should have tracked down during the emergency.
I have to 11 face the fact that that decision will be made months later 12 after my incident has been fully analyzed and enormous teams 13 of information and conclusione that I have no opportunity to
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14 think about in the rush of the moment on the day of the 15 accident, that will all be factored in.
So I don't now 16 which of these things.
17 Now, maybe I will give myself credit for having 18 been sensitized by the Three. Mile experience and I will be 19 watching things like primary pressure in the containment 20 pressure and certain critical radiation levels where I know 21 the instruments are pretty well good instruments and well 22 calibrated sc you have to pay attention to their readings 23 and maybe I will be lucky and will in fact pick up the 24 critical signs but maybe I won't.
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25 If I do my level best at it and am a reasonably ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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competent professional and sweat hard and honestly at it 2
what I nevertheless have to face is that down the line if it 3
turns out I made s mistake why you are going to come after s
4 me.
5 Now, I have to decide wac.t it is I am going to do 6
by way of my actions to prevent or at least limit my 7
perconal liability after the accident and I am not sure I 8
vant the supervisors of these plants during the occident to 9
he trying to decide the actions which will limit their 10 personal liabilities later on.
I would rather have them 11 thinking what is it we must do to keep the bloody core of 12 this machine from melting down.
13 MR. SIELLO:
I hope that is what is behind what we
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l 14 do.
15 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Boy, I am having an awfully 16 lot of trouble distilling it out of this proposition.
17 MR. SIELLO:
Well, I wasn't suggesting it is easy, 18 but to suggest that all of the trading that we have and they 19 have on the way engineered safety features are designed in 20 plants, the care and the attention to make sure that they 21 are in fact single-failure proof and to know that one of 22 those engineered safety features went off and for that not 23 to have any follow-up action, and it turns out it could have 24 been as sinple as looking at the monitors of.the temperature 25 to see if they, too, responded, which maybe would have ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY, NC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2346
82 1
coupled in immediately a hydrogen burn on Wednesday 2
afternoon.
3 I think that is what this is all about, a notice 4
of violation, it is the corrective action.
What are you i
5 trying to accomplish?
If somehow all of what we do is just 6
generating whether or not the pieces of paper, the reports I l
7 vrite, that is not what I hopefully am getting across..
8 The notice of violation hopefully is a signal, 9
look at your system, understand it, look at the operators, 10 how can you be assured that you are cetting the information 11 from them to digest, understand and synthesize it and to now 12 that if you did see the pressure spike that your limited 13 resources would have baen used for that purpose.
These are
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5 14 important messages.
15 CHAIRMAN AHEA3NE:
But that is not what you are 16-citing them for.
17 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE You are no t citing him:for i
18 having his emergecy staff set up and organized to focus on 19 things like the critical operating parameters of the plant 20 and to track down anomalies and gather in a cohesive way 21 that information together so that they form a sort of, you 22 know, minute-by-minute ongoing best estimate of the state of 23 the system.
That is not th e cita tion.
24 The citation is that this instrument went " wang" 25 and some pumps wen. off and he didn't tell the NEC.
I will l
l ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345.
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tell you, it is going to be pretty hard to convert that no 2
matter how you phrase it.
It is going to be pretty hard to 3
convert that into the message that you have just, you know, 4
summarized that you hope it communicates to everybody.
5 MR. STELLO:
I don't know that it will be eary but 6
we are going to try.
7 COMBISSIONER HENDRIE:
I think people are going to 8
read it in terms of, you know, if you get an emeroency why 9
what do I as plant manager do to keep from having my career to cut off at the legs.
The answer is going to be jus *. stay on 11 the open phone to the NRC and tell them everything you can 12 see out there in that control room.
13 If the plant goes from bad to worse but you tell
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14 the NRC, gee, that is great, you know, I am off the hook.
15 Never mind the fission products, as long as I tell them ther 16 are coming out I am clean.
17 COMMISSIONES BRADFORD:
First of all, we have 18 cited Met. Ed. for a number of other violations that didn't 19 simply reiste to reporting.
There may actually be two 20 separate items wrapped up in this, only one of which has to 21 do with reporting to the NPC.
22 But it seems to me that that pressure spike 23 because it tells one that there is hydrogen would also have 24 told us and the state and the whole emergency planning 25 a ppa ra tus a whole lot of things that would be very us?ful to ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 564-2345
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know.
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2 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
There is no question about 3
th a t, Peter.
That is absolutely right.
So would a clear g.
4 relaying of those temperatures.
5 COMMISSIONER BR ADFORD:
I was going to ask Vic 6
later why in fact the temperatures weren't of the character 7
for the same reason.
8 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I agree that is a 9
perfectly correct point.
10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Why don't you get into your 11 second set because that does address that.
12 MR. SIELLO:
We have looked hard and long 13 CHAIRMAN AHERRNE:
Vic, the Commissioner has
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14 prerogatives here.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
Sorry about that.
Ara you 16 saying that it is wrong for us to judge performance in an 17 accident af ter the f act?
After all, everyone who is 18 respnsible for a f acility or a ship or a plane or whatever 19 is in this position.
20 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I will tell you, I think we 21 ought to judge the performance of operators and the 22 responcible people at plants after an accident in the light 23 of (a) were there willful violations of the regulations or 24 for God sskas, you know, professional good sense.
25 I think with regard to taking punitive action ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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against unknowing or unintentional mistakes, acts of 2
omission or commission, that one wants to be extremely 3
careful and to take such actions principally on the basis of 4
the influence our action will have on the performance of 5
other operators and supervisors in comparable situations in 6
the future.
7 What worries me about the thrust of the particular 8
enf orcement actions at hand is that I think it sends a 9
message which has net detriment to the public safety 10 throughout the operating ride of the industry.
I'do not by 11 my comments, please everybody understand, accord the Met.
12 Ed. personnel at Three Mile on the 28th any particular set 13 of kudos.
They got the plant into a situation that it
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14 shouldn't have been in and they had one hell of a time 15 getting it back out, even I would say almost inadvertently 16 flopped out of it eventually.
17 Nevertheless, I haven't been able to find 18 any body's investigation, except for one trace I will mention 19 if you like, I haven't been able to find in anybody's 20 testimony or investiga tion willful or knowledgeable 21 violations of regulations, plant practices or what the 22 people who were doing it at the moment thought was, you 23 know, good common sense the best thing to do.
24 COMMISSIONE3 BRADFORD:
This is on the 28 th?
25 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Yes.
So what we are look ALDERSoN REPORTING CoVPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S W, WASHINGTON. 0 4. 20024 (202) 554 2345 i
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at are those unknowing and unintentional acts of commission 2
and omission and there indeed were a number.
3 But again I say what action we take of a punitive
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4 type as contrasted to publishing a report that says, now 5
look, what we learned from this is that these people should 6
have done this and shouldn 't have done tha t and let us learn 7
a lesson from this and other operators please take note and 8
so on.
In contrast to that what we do in a punitive sense 9
ouhht to be done within the light of what it means to other 10 operators in the future.
11 I haven't been able to see the positive side of 12 this for other operators and other supervisors down the line 13 in other emergencies.
(
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
So far he was talking 15 about the utility as a whole.
16 MR. STELLO:
Could we have the next to the last 17 slide.
18 (Slide.)
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKIs You used the words 20
" professional" and " good sense."
You said willful 21 violations of regulations a re violations of professional 22 good sense.
23 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Yes.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI Don't you see in th eir 25 actions violations of professional good sense, including the ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 s
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need to report to the NRC7 2
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE Willful, intentional?
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKIs Well, I didn't read you to 4
be coupling the willful necessarily to the professional good 5
sense.
6 COMHISSIONER HENDRIE:
Yes, I am.
Because look, 7
if at a given time a take some action which it seems to me 8
is the right and proper one in view of my background 9
training, education and everything else that goes on and so 10 on, and it later turns out that that was a dumb thing to dG, 11 that it was the wrong thing to do, you know, I have indeed 12 made a mistake, I have violated professional good sense, if 13
(,
you will.
Did I intend to do that?
No, I thought I was 14 doing the right thing.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
Do you not see these 16 people as having put a better face on the situation or a 17 substantially better face on the situation than they 18 themselves believe to be the case in their reporting?
19 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
At one place I said there 20 was a trace that I would come back to if you like.
It doee 21 seem reasonably clear f rom Gerusky's account that when 22 Herbeing and Miller and whoever else went with them went and 23 talked to the Lt. Governor that afternoon that they didn't 24 really map out, you know, what the range of possibilities 25 were and where they thought they were in that range of ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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possibilities and, you know, what the rocks looked like on-2 either sida.
I think that was unfortunate and not helpful 3
to them or to the state or to anybody else.
But I haven't 4
read it from, you know, what I can gather out of this and in 5
the report of the investigators that it was done in a sort 6
of malice of forethought way but rather that Herbein were up 7
there sort of trying to present to the state people, as I 8
have characterized, a view toward the optimistic side of
~
9 their sort of band of understanding of things.
10 COMMISSIONEB GILINSKIa But they had a 11 responsibility to tell it straight.
12 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
' dell look, Vic, if I have 13 got something going on at my plant and I don't fully
(
14 understand it myself and there is a hell of a lot of 15 conf usion ind I have clearly got damage out there and the 16 Lt. Governor has demanded that I come down and talk to him 17 and against my better judgment and sputtering and cursing I 18 have to drive to Harrisburg and get entry to his-office, you 19 know, I am not surprised that I find these people giving a 20 sort of minimsl summary report and trying to get back and so 21 on.
22 The Lt. Governor is not a guy that I can 23 communicate to very rapidly in terms of this whole realm of 24 possibilities.
I am going to have to explain all kinds of 25. background matorisis since he isn't a technical guy.
Even ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2346
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if-Tom Gerusky 2
CHAIRMAN AHEABNE:
Gerusky said that he was the 3
(-
only technical person.
4 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Anyway, you know, it isn't 5
going to help all that much that the Governor has got a i
6 technical aide there.
The Lt. Governor is going to want to 7
understand himself.
8 Now, indeed it is clear that it would have beer 9
better if they tried to take the time to do that so that the 10 Lt. Governor understood more clearly.
It would just have 11 cleared the air between the state and Met. Ed. for the next 12 few days in a very helpful way, but I can't see in it a sort 13 of malicious intent.
(
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI Malicious in what sense?
13 If they went in there and they put a better face on things, 16 or a considerably better face on some things than they 17 believed a true description would have been ---
18 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I am not sure that that is 19 the case.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
---because they see this 21 as a place where a lot of trouble can develop and they want 22 to gat.the-plant'under control before the state people get 23 excited, then I regard this as a violation of the 24 requiremants of the regulstion.
25
-COMMISSICNER HENDRIE:
I think it would either be ALDERSoN REPCRTING COMPANY. INC.
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1 a violation or come pretty dann close to it.
But I don 't 2
find in what has been said here and in the report that the 3
investigators have produced for us, I don't find that as one
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4 of the conclusions and findings.
5 I find wha t they concluded was that Herbein, 6
Miller and company really just didn't say anything about the 7
uncertainties in their understanding of the situation and 8
what the possibilities were out either way.
As I say, I 9
think it would have been of considerably help to clear the 10 air if they had taken some time and tried to do that, but 11 under the circumstances I can see why they might not have.
12 This also comes off the point of citing for the 13 pressure spike versus telling NRC.
(
14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Let us talk a little bit about 15 those othee items.
Vic, also has on his notice of violation 16 on the emergency procedures some of those items.
17 Could you briefly summarize that?
18 MR. BICKWITs Excuse me just one second.
We can 19 come back to it, but I have a question that relates to the 20 first catetory.
21 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I still have four or five, 22 too.
23 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
We will ecme back to it.
24 I can see that device up there continues to move 25 (indicating the clock) and I. would like to at least give Vic' ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
91 1
'a chance to cover some of his other items.
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2 ER. STELLO:
Let's get back to the last slide 3
again.
4 let me move on to the tech. spec. that is derived 5
from the Tech. Spec. 6.8 which requires various procedures.
6 The procedure in question here is an implementing procedure, 7
the emergency plan 1670.3.
The procedure in question is one 8
that deals with how to handle information.
There is a 9
particular note in the procedure that indicates that they 10 are to provide, and it lists a variety of people, and it 11 says these people are to provide the maximum assistance and 12 information possible to the NRC, state and others.
13 Ihat is the requirement for which the following
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14 citations are listed.
Now, you will notice on these we list 15 whether we in judgment believe it applies to either the 16 state or the NRC.
You have already discussed for the last 17 few minutes the issue of telling the state.
It is proposed 18 that that be the basis for one of the citations and I 19 propose not to discuss that any further.
20 In this instance they did not let the state know 21 about the pressure spike and it would be against that 22 requirement because 20.403 does not deal with reporting to 23 the state.
24 The Goldsboro calcula tion, the state did knov 25 sbout it.
- 4e didn't.
This one I might add is very iffy ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
92 1
even in my own mind sitting here now.
They did not let us 2
K'now f rom the timing of that calculation.
As to when they 3
had other information which indicated it probably was all
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4 right is a very narrow window.
I put it up here because at 5
least for the moment I believe I want to think about it some 6
more, but I must admit that I am not sure that it is worth 7
bring in that argument.
It is for the purpose that I say of 8
using these as examples of the things that people need to be 9
very sensitive to.
10 Exit thermocouples, that applies both the NRC and 11 the state and the EMOV.
The core thermocouple" one I think 12 we have discussed sufficiently.
13 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD.
Vic, why is that one not a
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14 20.4037 15 3R. STELLO:
I do not believe that one can make 16 the argument that that would have been an incident.
It had 17 to be a discrete incident.
I think the pressure spike 18 presented a new challenge.
The containment was filled with 19 fission products and its integrity was challenged as an 20 incident in with what was already going on.
In my mind the 21 core exit thermocouples were part of the ongoing process 22 that they had.
23 CHAIR *AN AHEARNE You don't see 20.403 then 24 applying to a discrete piece of information but it has to be 25 a discrete event.
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I have a difficult time persuading myself that 16 that fitt that category.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNEt let's put the pressure spike 9
issue aside and you think about it.
10 How about the tech. spec. emergency procedures 11 issue that len has suggested sweeping it all up under the 12 20.4037 13 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Well, if you are going to fA.
14 go with a notice of violation, why I think that you would be 15 better off tucking it under the tech. spec. emergency 16 procedures.
k'i t h regard to the list of five, we have talked 17 about some of these.
I will say about the Goldsboro 18 calculation that I must say it isn't clear to me that I had 19 been the plant manager that I would have let them call the 20 sta te with that 10-R per hour number.
I think they did I
21 exactly the right thing.
They did a fast calculation based 22 on extrapolation from a monitor with some very simple 23 calculetions which they kne'v was way conservative.
They got 24 a very high number for Goldsboro and they did just the right 25 thing.
They shot somebody out with a meter to see what l
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bloody well was in the air outside and it immediately came 2
back and it was clear that there was no way it could be 10-R j
3 per hour in Goldsboro.
4 I just say if I had been the plant manager, why I 5
would have waited to that stage before I told either the l
6 sta te or the NBC or took any action myself.
So think the 7
Goldsboro calculation -- unless there is more to it than I 8
have read.
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNF I think we will get back into 10 this again, but I would like to lot Vic say a few words i
11 about his other major enforcement action because it might 12 clarify some of this.
13 "3. STELLO:
Let me cover the others very 14 quickly 15 (Lauchter.)
because I have a feeling that 16 MR. STELLO:
17 when I ge
' ' +he show-caus e order ---
18
. iter.)
19 an. STELLO:
Report to the hearing board, we are l
20 going to do that.
I was trying to make the point that we 21 intend to develop some sort of a docur.ent to avoid operators 22 from being reacting to what we do in a way in which we don't 23 want them to.
The whole intent are lessons that are-learned 24 1Mr this study and we hope to the best of our ability to-25 convey that message.
I ALDER $oN REPoRrlNG COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W, WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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1 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Keep in mind that any time you 2
tell anyone anything, whether it is children, operators or 3
adults, they watch what you do.
They listen to what you say g-4 but they watch wha t you do.
5 MR. STELLO:
I understand that.
6 We also as another action will prepare replies to 7
correspondence.
There are certain outstandinc items of 8
correspondence.
Our proposal would be to use the report and 9
the action that we take as the basis to reply.
10 There is one other item which our report discusses I
11 and I think it would be important to try to find a way to 12 dispose of it 13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE The vastepaper basket?
(
l 14 (Laughter.)
l 15 MR. STELLO:
and that is the matter that was 16 raised by Herman Dieckamp's mailgram that was sent I believe 17 to Congressman Udall and I believe Commissioner Gilinsky got 18 a copy of it.
I think if I memory is correct Commission l
19 Kennedy entered it into the record before.
20 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE I think we all cot copies, 21 didn't we?
22 MR. STELLO:
I don't know.
23 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
We get a lot of mail.
24 COMMISSIONER HENDEIE:
You have mentioned the 25 subject.
Now what is your plan ?
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1 MR. STELL0s My proposal, because of the way we 2
have brought this up the report, we have dismissed it as e-3 there is clearly no aaterial false statement.
4 00MMISSIONER GILINSKI4 Can I ask you a question 5
about that before you get to your proposal?
-j 7
COMMISSIONER GILINSKIs Is it in fact correct that 8
a material false statement under the law needs to be tiqd to 9
the sections ' of the law I guess or to an applic:stion as
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10 cited'in the report?
11 MR. SHAPARs I was going to say I am glad you 12 brought tha t question, or a ctually I am sorry.you did.
13 (Laughter.)
^
14 COMMISSIONES GILINSKIs My other question'is 15 (Laughter.)
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKIs
--- even if that is so why 17 did the report not deal wAth the question of whether the 18 statement was correct or not or true or not?
19 MR. STELLO:
Let me answer the last part of the 20 question first.
21 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Let Howard answer tha question 22 first.
23 MR. SHAPAR:
Well, I will answer the first part of 24 the question first.
Actually a material false statement is 25 a statement that you find in an application or is required ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC3 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) $54-2343
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by the -NBC in connection with a decision to revoke a
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The false fx 4
sta'tement is I think under Section 182 of the Act.
- Howaver, o.M 5
..it is not that'sirple because we can get a false statement
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1001, and 7 'that would be any matter within the jurisdiction of the NRC.
8 So you can in that larger sense have a false 9
statement which is prosecutable criminally even though it f
15 doesn't fall under Section 182 of the Act.
So it depends on 11 what' kind of a false statement you have.
You can revoke a 12 license for a false statement and that refers back to 182 of
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13 the Act.
. - f 14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Can the feise statement be in a 15 press release?
16 MR. SHAPAR:
I don't think I can give you a black 17 and white answer to that.
Part of the difficulty here is 18 this was a communication to the Congress.
As I understand 19 the report a copy was sent to Commissioner Gilinsky.
So the 20 question is is that kind of a false statement -- I guess the 21 more liberal interpretation or the broader interpretation 22 would be that they sent it to Commissioner Gilinsky for a 23 purpose and he is an official member cf the NRC and 24 therefore I would argue that it is a matter within the 25 jurisdiction of the NRC even though the primary recipient ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W, WASH 6NGToN, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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was the Congress.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKIs It had my name on 1t.
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I don't know why anybody would send (m
4 Commissioner Gilinsky something unless he intended for him 5
to read it, but that is a broader interpretation.
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI Of course, I get a lot of 7
stuff that I don't read.
8 (Laughter.)
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE4 Are you saying that a letter or to telegram sent to a Commissioner, if it is addressed to the 11 Commissioner, if there is a false statement in it, then is 12 the individual liable for prosecution?
13' HR. SHA P7, E s I am saying I.am not aware of any
(..
14 hard and fast rules on this.
You are going to have to'go 15 back and look at case law.
No one has done that kind of 16 research.
17 I would argue from no depth of research whatever 18 that if the matter was communicated to the agency and it was 19 a matter within the jurisdiction of the agency related to 20 some event they were consid ering, and let's say it was 21 intended to deceive or something like that matter ---
22 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Oh, there has to be an intent?
23 3R. SHAPARs No, no.
24 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
It just has to have a false 25 sta temen t.
t ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
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5R. SHAPAR:
Just a false statement.
2
'CHAIPMAM AHEARNE:
Would this stretch to draft 3
reports if they are sent and there is a false stateavnt?
4 (Pause.)
5 (Laughtar.)
6 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Put that aside.
7 MR. SHAPAR:
I think I prefer not to answer that.
8 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Len, do you agree?
9 ER. BICKWIT:
I guess I agree with everything said 10 except my guess is when we go back and do that research we 11 will never find a case of prosecuting under this statute 12 where the communication was not directly to the agency for 13 the purpose of the agency's receiving it.
Since criminal
(
14 statutes are generally construed narrowly I would be very 15 surprised if you could sustain a criminal conviction.
16 MR. SHAPAR:
- Yes, I would agree.
It would have 17 to be an extremely broad interpretation, and after all the 16 primary recipient was the Congress and not the Commission.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Now Commissioner Gilinski had'a 20 separate question which I thin,k was more directed at your 21 topic.
22 MR. STELLO:
The reason for putting it in an 1
23 - action I propose to take, which ic to as Met. Ed. to look at 24 our report in light of that sta tement and to inquire as to 25 whether it would be appropriate in thair view to somehow ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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modif y it and, if so, how, and, if not, why not.
2 The rasson for doing that is becsuse it is a 3
question that is left hanging by cur report in that we only 4
make the finding if it has got a material false statement.
5 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Remind me why we are addressing 6
the context of a teleg ram.
7 MR. STELLO That was one of the questions that we 8
had as part of this investigation that were left over to 9
Enswer.
We did inquire during our interview of this matter 10 and I didn't want to leave it hanging if it was at all 11 possible to avoid it.
12 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
When you say one of the 13 questions, I didn't bring my set.
Was it one of the
(
14 questions that Congressman Udall asked us?
15 MR. SIELLO:
'Yes, as I recall.
16 CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
Since your effort partially was 17 turned on in response to questions fron Congressman Udall-1 18 this fits in to addressing one of ths questions that you were 19 asked to address?
20 MB. STELL0s Yes.
Once we started on it and we 21 did do the interviews, now that it is left the way it is in 22 the report I feel the need to at least bring.it up.
23 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs Now, the question you were 24 addressing was was there a material false statement?
25 MR. STELLC:
And the answer is there is none.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
105 1
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
But that was the question?
2 M R.- STELL0s That was the question addressed in e'
3 the report.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI4 There was not because of 5
what?
Because it isn't covered by the law?
6 MR. STELL0s Yes.
7 MR. SHAPAR:
Thtt is the matter I discussed with 8
you.
I thought that the write-up i n the re port was too 9
simplistic, as I told you.
10 MR. STELLO.
He has just expanded the write-up 11 beyond what is in the report.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
The legal interpretation 13 given in the report?
(
14 MR. STELLO:
Yes.
15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE4 Now, in examining the mailgram, 16 which as I read it, and I didn't look in my files but I am 17 sure we all have copies probably somewhere embedded in a 18 hugh stack of stuff, it is a malloram referring to a story 19 ' reporting on a visit.
Did you examine the story in any 20 press accounts which were put out by the Congressional 21 committee to do a comparison?
22 MR. MOSELEY:
No.
We simply pursued the 23 sta tement.
There was the one statement that is quoted in-24 the report.
25 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Wall, if we are really tracking j
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106 down on a correction of the statement, to do that I would 1
think that you would'look at what was said.
Appareatly the 2-subcomaittee said something, the "imes reported it and he is 3
responding.
So I think you would have to look at what did 4
the subcommittee say and what did the Times say and wha t is 5
the response.
6 COMMISSIGNER GILINSK!:
' dell, you have covered 7
some of that in.the mailgram, as I remember.
He we.s 8
concerned that there was a confusion between an explosion or 9
a burn in the containment.
10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
But if we are going to Met. Ed.
11 and say we have a mailoram and we want you to straighten it 12 out, in order to say what it is we have to straighten out 13
(
you have got to J ock at it.
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
Well, I think he is 15 referring to a particular sentence in there saying that we 16 have no evidence that anyone understood the spike.
Isn ' t 17 that really the key sentence?
18 MR. MOSELEY:
That is right, yes.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Was the subcommittee correct in 20 what they said?
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
I think he was responding 22 to a story in the New York Times.
Isn't that what the 13 mailgram is all about?
24 CHATEMAN AHEARNE:
No.
He is reporting on a vis.t 25 i
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'1 to the subcommittee.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
I was up there, too, which 3
is why I got a copy.
4 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
That is where you got the copy?
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI Righ t.
6
. CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
What was said at the time up 7
there, was it correct?
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
I don't think the 9
committee said anything.
I think he is responding to a 10 story in the New York Times.
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes, but was the Times 12 reporting what tha subcommittee said ?
13 MR. FOUCHARD:
Can I help?
(
14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes.
15 MB. FOUCHARD:
Ihe subcommittee, you remember, Mr.
16 Gilinski, went for a tour of Three Mile Island with the 17 press.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI Richt.
19 Mh. FOUCHARD:
As I recall, they went into the 20 control room and I believe somebody there told them at that 21 time that the.NRC had been informed of the pressure spike.
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI Mr. Floyd.
23 MR. FOUCHARD:
Yes, sir.
And they came out 24 afterwards and they held a brief press conference there.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
That was the first time I ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
108 1
think any of us had heard that and I was right there when he 2
informed the committee.
r-3 MR. FOUCHARD:
So the story that you saw was a 4
result of that press tour with the committee.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
There was the a certain
~
6 amount of discussion about the hydrogen burn and who knew 7
and who didn't know and Dieckamp -- I wasn't in fact 8
involved in that -- but I saw him talking to a bunch of 9
Congressmen about it and then story in the New York Times to which apparently confused the containment in the pressure 11 vessel and that is really the thing that triggered the 12 mailgram into which he threw the sentence about whether or 13 not they had evidence or not.
(
14 MR. F300HARD:
That I think is the genesis of the 15 telegram.
16 CHAIRMAN AHEARME:
It could be that it was only a 17 copy to you because you were there.
That is possible.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
Yes.
It was actually 19 addressed to me.
20 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I was wonder whether the 21 information that was given out at that press conference was 22 accurate.
If it wasn't accurate maybe we ought to ask 23 whoever gave inaccurate information there to correct it.
24 Len?
25
- 33. BICKWIT:
I have just been handed a piece of ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
109 1-preliminary research on this that goes counter to the way 2
that I expected my research would go.
3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
It must be part of the terror 4
system.
5 (Laughter.)
6 MR. BICKWIT:
No one has read this case, but 7
Gilbert /U.S.C.A. Cal. is summarized as follows.
That 8
defendant's false representations that he was authorized to 9
endorse checks issues to taxpayers by' Treasury may have been 10 made to " Bank" rather than directly to the Department of the 11 Treasury was irrelevant in prosecution for violation of this 12 section, i.e.
1001, prohibit making-false statements as to a 13 matter within the jurisdiction of a government agency.
(
14 MR. SHAPAR All that proves is that the broad 15 interpretation is a possibility.
16 MF. BICKWIT:
That is right.
17 MR. SHAFAR:
But not a very likely one.
18 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
So,'Vic, what do you propose?
19 MR. STELLos To request in the le tter that we 20 Write to Met. Ed. that they locate our report and see 21 whether or not it would be appropria te to clarify that 22 statement and, if so, how, and, if not, why not.
23 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD This is the one sentence ?
24
$R. STELLO:
Yes.
25 ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
i 110 1
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
But you aren't asking anybody 2
at the press conf erence' to perhaps cla rif y anything they e
3 aight have said that might have been wrong?
4 MR. STELLot No.
5 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I am just assing.
6 COMMISSIONER-BRADFORD:
Well, they didn't say it 7-to us.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI4
- Well, they are no t 9
licensees.
10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Victor was there.
They might 11 have told him.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKIs They are no t licensees.
13 It is a little different situation.
(
14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I think it was a false 15 statement made to a government agency.
16 MR. BICKWIT Tha t is righ t.
17 MR. SHAPAR:
A ma tter within the jurisdiction of 18 the United States.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
He doesn't have to be a 21 licensee or anything like that.
22 MR. BICKWIT:
No.
23 MR. SHAPAR:
It.has to be some ma tter within the
=
24 jurisdiction of the United States.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
Well, let's track him down.i ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRC"NIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTO!'. 0.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 i.
111 1
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Let me come at it from a 2
slightly different angle.
We have this sentence.
We have.
3 been asked if it is a material false statement.
Now, we can f
4 either conclude that it isn't because we don't define 5
material false statement that way or we could conclude that 6
it wasn't because it was true.
7 Does anyone care to speak to the prop,osition of 8
whether the sentence is true or not?
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Well, I noticed it has a phase 10 that I am not going to venture into, no evidence.
11 (Laughter.)
12 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE If Herman had been reading 13 all of our reports with some care and attention he wouldn't
(
14 say things lik e that.
All he had to do was to say I am 15 aware of no substantial evidence.
How about that?
16 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:- I would urge you that if you do 17 go forward with this that at least in your letter you make 18 it clear that you are following up a request because we are 19 tracking down the mailgram staterents.
20 COM!ISSIONER GILINSKI:
I don' t think this is a 21 casua'l matter.
I mean, we have got a high official in the 22 utility writing to us about a very serious accidert.
Maybe 23 I misinterpret what you are-saying.
24 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I think in those times a lot of
~
25 people were saying a lot of things without havinc carefully ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
. x.
112 1
gone through them and this was one of many semi-press 2
releases that vara being issued and this was by a 3
Er. Dieckamp.
I don't think it anywhere near rises to the 4
other issues we are debating like the information transfer 5
at the time.
I just want to make sure that if he puts out 6
something that one can see that we view what you say at the 7
time of an accident a little bit more seriously than what 8-you might say in a telegram you send later.
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI It seemed to come across 10 fairly clearly.
11 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Can I just get an answer 12 to the question I asked.
Those of you who did the 13 investigation, would you accept tha t that sentence is an
(
14 accurate characterization?
15 MR. MOSELEY Well, I think I have the problem 16 that has already been discussed, that it is so broad and 17 sweeping.
No evidence that anyone withheld any informa tion 18 is so broad that I certainly would be very hesitant to say 19 that that is a true statement about anything.
20 (Laughter.)
21 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I can think of situations, 22 but this isn't one of them.
I 23 COMMISSIONER HENDEIE:
Nevertheless, I think it is 24 clear that at the time he sent his mailgram that Herman 25 thought that that fact was the case.
I will bet you a l
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15 Let me ask you a question, Vic.
Is it your belief 16 that Dieckamp lied delibera tely when he said there is no 17 evidence?
You have met Herman over the years.
What do you 18 th".nk?
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI I don't know what Herman 20 knew at the time.
I just don't know.
I am just not 21 prepared to saying anythin'g like that.
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Okay, Vic, continue.
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Joe, you have to leave when?
18 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Fifteen minutes; 12 minutes.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Ten minutes.
20 I know there are a number of other questions.
21 Wha t would be your feeling about going for another ten-22 minutes and if we do not complete, which I am afraid we vill 23 not, of continuing tomorrov ELfternoon?
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6
'(Laughter.)
7 Tomorrow afternoon vill be acceptablei 8
(No response.)
9 Let us continue then for a few more minutes and 10 then we vill reconvene at 2 o' clock tomorrow afternoon.
11 Do you have some other points that you wanted to 12 make, Vic?
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4 (Whereupon, at 2:55 p.m.,
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recessed, to reconvene at 2:00 p.m., Friday, January 23',
6 1981.)
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