ML20024C516
| ML20024C516 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 04/12/1979 |
| From: | METROPOLITAN EDISON CO. |
| To: | |
| References | |
| TASK-01, TASK-02, TASK-03, TASK-04, TASK-05, TASK-1, TASK-2, TASK-3, TASK-4, TASK-5, TASK-GB B&W-0360, B&W-360, NUDOCS 8307120734 | |
| Download: ML20024C516 (58) | |
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This is an interview with Cary Miller.
gg jg WE Cary I wnuld like to start of f the conversation by asking you the best Gr-M1j p:,:y can to re===her back when you first got called on the morning of March 28th.
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,tw j,M.4 a which I believe was shortly af ter 4:00.
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And if you could temember and tell ua the kind of information you were 9
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The recall part of this is really poor now a days.
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remember I was given very little information other than Unit 2 had a.;.::
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hh trippedi'"I'vas called by a guy out of Unit I and I any have been told k'., l
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basically all that I remember being told.
. s-r fMd t e n,. s l-Wh calle.1 se knew anything.
W Yid im.iW Was that the only telephone conversation you had with the plant prior to W.
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the time you came in.
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One somewhere in the next boar A
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No, I think I probably had two others.
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I called back in mainly just to find out where they were before I lef t.
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when I was called at four.
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I called back on my own.
.~::.y I believe George answered the phone and I if recollect that
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what he told me.
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1yg.q I f you look back at the nun 6er of times I used to do that they were very
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So I can't remember
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A I think on one hand he told me everything wee
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alright and I think on the other hand the things he told me told me a
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But i didn't jtamp en anything or key on anything.
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y.!Q j verything wasn't alright.
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Okay. I have one more question along the line of March 25th.
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your other testimony, you had indicated that you gave instructions. I believe kd."
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instructions were and who you gave than to.
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I as almost sure that I, if you go back to some of the things I said
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- .f-I as almost sure I directly told Mike Ecos that g' i"
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EPI wouldn't be secured without my knowledge.
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So I as I stayed two licenses away f rom the panel.
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.n pp@q sure I told Ross and I as sure it was in very strong language and I think N.
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Anybody else went to ask questions about March 28th.
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Yes. Gary....
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Let se say one thing I don't know whether anybody else in my group v
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Y('yg'p W.' ;ji RWE I don't think there is any challenge about that.
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If there is, sesebody ought to tell me. Because I haven't pas back and
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I didn't sense any challease. The first time I heard you say it was at the p:.w i
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Without even looking at what I said before I au pretty sure that 1,ee
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that because 55W had probably tuned him in better to the block valve
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problem. That's what I remember. I don't remember even discussing F..,
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fd 14NC One other questiun about March 28th, we have been criticised about est n ;T C.g.
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whether they really thought about the criteria N1? REG 0600 says you are
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At the first phone call, it never even entered my mind because Unit 2 C
Q.JQ MILLER
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transient that we were looking at.
At 5:00 or at 6:00 even in the calls
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M*y; I think the fact that we had no radiation indications that we were told
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I think we would have realized that, I believe we would have thought site
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My was10 or 15 minutes getting there and if you looked from when I got there
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a it was 20 minutes till I realized we were out of the ballpark with the site.
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N'N I just don't think we thought about it early in the morning.
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I think there is another thing in your training and in your emphasis in the
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Lp.'-3;,M; causing a fuel probles which would need you to start thinking site emergency.
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MILLER:
I just think we went down in the path and if you look at it they really M
didn't 30 af ter that until they scw radiation. So I as sure the Webl
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criticise is valid but I am net so sure that it was a planned thing. it G
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kind of experience in Unit 1 as Ops Boss.
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I want to grade into the next section sort of carefully because I don't S!,'[-
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E,},yY want to put words in your mouth. But I want to go back to the conditions N"
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Td those problems what really was the problem, Let as ask you to spend a little M.. ; -
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g time commenting on questions like what did you really spend your days doing b-8;s D.i
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easier and effectively and where were the areas that you really had trouble
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{f -N getting to do. I don't mean just in the sense of getting a valve yl4 g.
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MII.L.ER:
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with some of the stuff I read. Although I have tried to stay above that.
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accident if you go back and look at my hours alone in n
the last four or five years, they are going to tell somebody that nobody
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I had begun to cut my hours down because i-.c, 1. %n r~
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14 hours1.62037e-4 days <br />0.00389 hours <br />2.314815e-5 weeks <br />5.327e-6 months <br /> a day. That has to effect your ability to function. My days and C.,.
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my thrust, I have never related to that because I don't ever want to say that's a cause of anything. ' hat's not fair and that's easy. My days really were
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spent more on things outside operation and maintenance. I would always J4-+ g. j y
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. %; y, You know that call in the morning at 4:01 told you something. It told g.
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probably the month before that or two moths was budget, personnel.
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What kind of problems would you deal with budgets and personnel
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Trying to cut the budget. Trying to convince people I couldn't. Trying a.. r. :.,
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Spending a lot of hours trying to justify 8 or 12 Catalytic people here and the
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%CM The other thing was probably I was off site 40% of the time.
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Doing what?
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Well, that particular day I was to go to a refueling procedure at Oyster Cg,g,
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You said you spent a lot of time on personnel type things. Can you say soms v
tMe words along that line.
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Well, when you got to remember that all of the personnel problems on the 6
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Staf fing, I think if you look back at what I wrote down an January 1979
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with any depth, it talks about things like retention.
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Tea, I'll bring it over when we are done.
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Or put it in the mail to me if that's easier for you.
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the other thing its sufully hard to remember. A lot has changed.
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part' of what we are looking for is and we are looking in the EWE Of course.
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positive sense of what can we do jointly to help out a situation in the ENhM-)*
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irreducable minimum of activity that you really needed to be involved in
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Wll$.NM and to what extent were you fighting the systems that ande life more
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I wish I could do Its hard to relate that to the way it really was.
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y.q?n. '"e.*.N better. Everything on the island was through me. Everything. When CPU L
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, 4 F M W 4 dw dollar to the budget I had to review it.
Every capital project.
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Q UWhT>.Q I think that's the way we always do business.
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- But time wise it killed us.
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kind of problem. I was almost uninvolved with the actual day to day operation j?.
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M.. r.W we over-filled the vessel. The day that we did that I waj: in Reading. Se I can back that night and I made every guy come in operations on Unit.1.
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But I didn't have the time to annage that prokles.
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Cary, how much of your department head was spent in the same two areas.
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I believe that personally you are talking 201 of the guys time was spent
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p g-L.T" WILLIAN5 Is that because no one would be willing to pass the responsibility down?
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I guess one of the ones is me.
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I -i he filled them with the right psople, that's his problem. When I talk
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his reeuse. I had to understand who he was and that's good but that takes M
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times. If you look and I have 500 people on this island we never more than r, -. s%
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We understand... Was that accountability also true in the technical areaa
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g rl,'.*Gd where running the plant. Did you not paes that accountability down or did you Ill r.;.e W:: *
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MILLER:
I think that we made an attempt to keep the like the plant revier committee 7-N bit.-.4 q
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operation because they were an independent revier, they were an engineering
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review and theny might tell you something that you are not seeing in W
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If I understand maybe what Ion la driving at in terms of the decisions 4.1 '.T T.:.;.:.5,.r,y.
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It would have at least come to that superintendent and in a lot of cases W@.>.-
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this year, that decision wouldn't even be mine that would be reviewed in Reading.
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You know what I am saying. I don't know what you are trying to get out but
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I was thinHng more of the day to day operations. You said you were involved
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I guess that's what I as trying to determine Gary is how much of those
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were going to talk about going down in power or we had a tech spec problem.
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Let's take an example. Unit 2 had a flow problem. Right, we all know it C
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you were involved. Jack Herbein was involved. Joe Ingan was involved me
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If you look at technical accountability I don't think the guy that was
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What did you specifically hold your Unit superintendents responsible for.
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What kind of accountability did they have?
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(.. a. i I tried to hold them accountable for running the operations and maintensoce.
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By that I mesa, for ensuring that the tech specs were followed. I would
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m maintenance is done. they owe me a budget for that ites. They would have MIILIR:
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4 not have been the guy at the site that that got reported. He would have been
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know whether maintenance was 'oeing done well or poorly or did you just not aj L.no:.m:...:-9 m.c-
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@h5.6 Well, one hard thought is that if you look at January 1979 we had agata
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for the sesond year in a row, two new superintendents with us.
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Did you ever think of why you had 800 open maintenance iteest_
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Teah _I thought of ik I didn't know hma to proceed on it because the -
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and we had the ability to do one or two jobs on the back shift.
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N.hg,d/h MILLI 18 We just can't do it with the size of this plant. You are just kidding d[
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d...M KEATENs How did that arisef Did it arise because of NRC regulations. Did it
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5NND arise because of our own requirements. Some combination of thosef Q,'ffil&
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I think its a combination of the way we implemented both. I dee't bellowe 5
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91 it was all NEC done. Something just like a time sheet. Cuys spent, foreman j
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with the time sheet. It had to be this big, and it had to be this way j
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I think the time sheet was probably designed for to fit a CCHEC requirement nwess
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I spent on the makeup system last year and that's a real thing you need to g
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could never figure how to approach that and get rid of it and still satisfy
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A It didn't seem like the systems we had worked or were designed with S; a 'u.
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KEATEN:
Some of the things that are leading us to ask questions on the maintenance yc..: -. '.** f f L
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negated their' ability to accept a loss of instrument air without closing.
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@N.h We haven't been able to find out why those wires were disconnected. What
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Somewhere down the line a guy disconnected the wire. In all probability
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I guess but I've not seen much of that. I think the guy that ought to be
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HATEN Our review has of course only focusedi very few systems but if you look vf' un g..
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_Yy r. '~.:q r,.l.,Q thing is widespread. We found it everywhere that we looked. Maybe we just h
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I'll tell you this much, I wasn't avere I would not have guessed you j/
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Would not have.
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No sir. I wasn't svare of that and it would have bothered me.
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readings out of cabinets and wires. Do you know there were people dows there
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sticking their fingers in those cabinets. Good people, people like you sad I.:.
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I as saying good, people sometime don't like to go throtish all that stuff.
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MM, d inspect the plant. Your not going to have time to. But who should have y...r s
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If your organMtion was right your supervision should have caught it, either t me. t,y~"
cf operations or maintenance. I never detected that our quality assurance t
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It just made your house cleaner. It made it more painful, but fl..-
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.p we had in the size plant we have,10 or 11. maybe even less. I felt...
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M.f.j;S, I just feel the only way you were ever going to be sure you don't have that p'
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operationally oriented independent check. Call it what you like. That's
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v.~. -.,g) not just looking for shit, but looking for things like that. If you
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Have you ever asked for more people to do thatt t.h,.
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I don't believe I perceived that as a necd, and to be really honest with you D..
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thing like that I would have had no probles at all having my organisation p.
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Is there any consideration let's say that you may give or expect to see
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were pu11ad off and dangling is the cabinet". Do you expect that kind of
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I iP-MILLEIs From a lot of people I would have guessed I would have expected it because c-s a3 6-.n..:.y
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that they expressed it sad it never got to me.
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WALIACIs gut that would go pretty far down in the ranks across the board, hyp,,
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MILLER:
In my mind it would. This is a place where you have a lot of people 2
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y and you know people in the numbers we have that didn't care, but you had p
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an awful lot of people I know by name and face that did care. That lived
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. in the instrument Th.Jr s a
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of people before this accident. I had concern groups as I called them.
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If you go look you will probably find that I met with every group on this
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those times of concerns. I might not have known that because they might
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not have told me.
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Were those meetings something that was.one shot!
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No they were continuous. They were over a period of a year. Some of them ^ '
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to filtered, an'd also to give them a shot at me, and I did a lot of things.
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t.1 from it and I learned a lot of things from those meetings but I didn't leerm. ~l;
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MILLER:
Gary, another kind of thing that we've run acrosa sort of along the same j.h -
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we were told. In talking to control room operations particularly and a couple pg-h.,
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that was true even if later on a couple of years later, in fact that
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D it or was it because the people who were making suggestions were not doing AFr.p..) l' 44 a :...:.
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it according to the system that they should have been using to get 7 y;'.!'J.*1 '
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Were you able to discriminate whether that was Unit I or Unit II or
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We have not talked to Unit I.
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t'y I think it would be interesting to talk to Unit 1 because I don't what
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you will get back.
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I don't think that the plant staff felt that
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think the ground rules in the system are very harsh. What were the ground rules ;
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.h Miller:
in one day, the pipe went across the floor. What I as trying to say is tnat f
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Cary, you raise an interesting point having been part of that process on the
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MILI.II:
he's right but that was never part of the rules that the operators I w; z.
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ht may be and, that may have been a breakdown u,.e'Y.'* C.J.,
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If you think about if you were an stat operator or a Cao and you ande 5
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suggestions you could almost be sure that none of thes would meet the w,. s t,
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go back and look at some of these changes and frequently find that the
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half of the stuf f never came back. So it was a tro way couaitment.
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Ferceived differently on both parts but I as sure that the operator knowing 6
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the ground rules. You see you take that whet you just said what de
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what comes to him. So what you are seeing is a result of that. I would think 4
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to aska a change. gut I think that the emotion of it would have been tone away.
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@h.h MILI.ER:
I think the emotion was still there from startup whom we had all of these
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Some of them were good ideas but some of them were you kase
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v the thing you could never make anybody in the enternal world understand
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is that there le not a plant running that can have 100 changes made today
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that would be better. I just think the ground rule we gave may have bees
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too harsh relative to evaluating the benefit, the cost benefit of the W~~$@.*?.?
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suggestion with an entional benefit the fact that we had put something is.
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I personally I went to Jack, got no whers. I tried to aske that
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change just by going to maintenance as the Superintendent.
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it before the Superintendent ought to have a circuit where he can 30 and set
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sort of thing. You know I perceived my people, they nnew I didn't have
{'.ty the ability to de that and I as just saying free an operators standpoint
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were sitting there talling him that and then every other day be sees a foot
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Its tough
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guy says hey that's that das polisher line and them its really hard to see.,..
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on a Saturday night we put the pipe in in 4 hours4.62963e-5 days <br />0.00111 hours <br />6.613757e-6 weeks <br />1.522e-6 months <br />. So what you saw is what a %.%g
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rules on changes because you could never build a plant and aske all the L
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4 sometimes they aske a suggestion which look
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alright free a little point of view but sure enough you put it into the k:MJ:
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whole design it just won't work and one of the things that seemed to come p.;;,i.bw.E-3 O', map.d !
back they didn't get some feedback to give them the feeling that they had
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W.,,
But see I couldn't even in my own mind see why we couldn't do some of them.
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f.~g, n*1 and I as honest person and I wasn't about to tell anybody that I agreed with-.
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j them. If the other circuit had existed we might have finally ende some of them.
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KEATEN:
If I understand you correctly you are saying that you as the station f.'.T
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superintendent didn't have a pot of money and a certain amount of N,,
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so through a complete system everytime.
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Mit i rn, In the world of paper unless I really missed it, I had no authority
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to make any changes in Unit II.
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IDNC:
That was before it was turned over to operations?
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MILLER:
That's right, and I think you are looking at the operator and we only'.
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What about Unit I you said Unit I took longer but you could get it donet y'^
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I thinh in the startup of Unit I we were able to locally do more.
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with stuf f that wasn't safety related. I don't believe like in Unit 1 T.
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I believe he fj.i'C!
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was harder rule on design changes as far as how they got approved. I think M...:. :
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the system af ter you got commercial was the change mod system and the change
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h it to be done with the Senior approval locally and that would have let no
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stuff like that but if it was a capital we couldn't do it.
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I think Unit I change mod systes and the fact that it had been runnias.
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What was the situation with respect to things like maintenance budgets-Rr -
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If you look at the routine way we do business I don't believe we had E,9 5-te t O'*4r],
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You had no aptica. Your real challeng3 was to gst priority I metatanames 1
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Before the accident we went through this. You could very seldom get f&.;
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Ibh operations was staffed I think adequately at least at far as I could tell.
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$;j2 M11.1.I18 The thing was really aqueening us before the accident. Was squeesing m
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You mentioned earlier that understood or perceived problems in Ep and E,3 w"- _4' ns p.. :.wy
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Well, I say that my relation to the heelth physics thins was becatee
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I being the operations group that's what I perceived the probles. It was.
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'LY.I WILLIAM 5:
Did Unit 2 because of this change or
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Why did you have to?
.: g, N-N MILLER Secause there wasn't enough talent to go around. The shift foremen la
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weren't ready because they didn't have the depth of emperience is
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But one of the
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MILLER:
We were probably light la Unit 11. We hired savy auxiliary operators k,J;,r
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a week and worry about the procedures you are going to use la three years.
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I also thought we oeeded shif t fores.ea supervisor type but we
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M11.1.ER:
Number of people. We went into six shif ts when Met-Ed what commercial h.... @i$.d t*j a=e-Nm.,M.. %. T;l )
on Unit 1.
I case out of it. I was involved in the decision to ecae 57 *:. 1**d r
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and that ain't enough. I had te go to five to get more people. Its as simple as that, and that meant training sacrifice. To the operator
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they look at it I'm sure. The other thing was locked into this auxiliary
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m-Lli C CA Tv Tou had to start two years earlier to be ready.
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Let me touch on something else that you asationed. That is trafatae I
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aspects. Talking to the training people they indicated that they have
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from the shift supervisors that they were uncomfortable with the level cY %
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Training, when you review this kind of stuff I wish I could remember
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to run a plant in a classroom. Talk about it. Your in training
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each other these names. We had Marsh Beers he is a good supervisor.
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MILLER:
on the department went way beyond they could do with the number f (,
of people they had. I think they spent more time talking them training, y[,I
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and I didn't know how to get it done. I heard it. I lived with it'.
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7:00 a.m. the other morning and set in on a lecture. I set in os I-M.
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Y.W have been a long time since I've been trained. You know what I as saying.
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and went af ter Herbein about hey you know we go to the hearing these CEO's s.
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We going to change fl.,..
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and shif t supervisors is how come our people aren't dofas the trainias.
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Tried to make sure thats what la
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those saadules was being taught by people that are going to teach the people
<e You cannot have these people sitting in this training till a.
something.
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E 9' April let and have them all come out. The guy they sent up here from f.-
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BW is a nice guy but he didn't even know bypass from a Q
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Be didn't kave anything about operations, and you can't put him up against
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So I don't think we've corrected that problem and I don't know how the
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I as also convinced that we do more training than most people.
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NIU.ER:
/g,3,1k Ve are hard on ourselves. You gotta be. We always vers. We've pe.
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N. ? D KIATENs That's exactly the reason this particular committee drew os Q
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in January when I got the six shif ts appoved through Jack I had told L.n a,fs.
Mike Ross that everybody went to training and if there was an exception N'j.,.:.
1 would have to know the name or the reason. I kept trying to go back M.,e, g, nn.
j af ter Seelinger who was training guy. I was at that point that
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t couldn't monitor that ability or that performance till summer.
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to until af ter startup, and we never were able to monitor that because m
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of the fact that this Lynchburg thing occurred, then the refueling which.
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I'm sure the operator felt we never really I.
h'w:.h puts operations in 12 hour1.388889e-4 days <br />0.00333 hours <br />1.984127e-5 weeks <br />4.566e-6 months <br /> days.
get
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1 think we've recognized.
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I think engineering training fell prey to the budget.
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MILLEnt pg every technical school trips when we couldn't 30 west of the Mississippi a g ut z.:.
to start with. I's just saying free a technicias er an instrument
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Let as ask a question about training. Do you feel that the staff.
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people were involved la training and got anything out of traininst W..
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The Unit II engineers for the last two years have e.
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They had no time.
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Maybe l'il ask an unf air question, but uithout that training were they ki[h@'tW y/ !
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qualified to do the job they were doing?
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Ihy-I 2F I I think they could have done a better job with training but I think they h/M#:. l
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j were qualified because of the fact. That's a hard question. The first l 44y3k:. : l 9?
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i Okay, well they aren't supposed to design Unit II. The guy that was
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I think he vaderstood it well enough
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fn.g'{.QQ it as well as he could have relative to improving it and stuff like that.
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I don't think the training cut out of fected his ability to functica se
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Mr.Wt-F.k"@.;,; n.
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None. You mean as ~ ar as the ability of the electrical guy to
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I don't think he had training in that but I think that some of the guye you'reT.th,..--e MILLER:
talking about had enough time here, enough freedom that they understood
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engineers that were here in Unit 2 were here through startup and they on the v
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job pt a lot of that.
But they would have understood their relation with the
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be put through a progras. I probably had guys in Unit I that came here p.
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secause they were never forced out. Its herder to ep
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KEATII:
Let as ask you a little dif ferent question. In the plant organisation r
p.n who was really responsible for the quality, accuracy and completamese y
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f +^.3M I kind of feel that rested with the Unit Superintendent. Ia Omit I l
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In Unit 11 we felt and I was a part of r-e.
P '6 ~ Md I firmly feel it rested there.
li V;'g;;-).% q'0 that we had designed a system to make those procedures as good or better
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I as sure that Jim Seelinger as the Unit Superintendeat A.C R:'M MILLER:
I fest it did.
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Along the same lines se procedures and changes. what kind of support
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written and we went commercial.
G.'C Let's take it af ter the commercial and really it wouldn't seem to me
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CM to aske much difference between Unit I and Unit II.
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Saying both Units are consercial I don't think we looked very much Q
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So I don't think we felt we had a big procedures needs, Wl"
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T WILLIAME:
h help and so forth, did you get the kind of support you felt you needed h
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I can honestly say that I never went to ask for it that I didn't get g;l q r...{e
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I an also saying that we didn't ask for it that auch. I think 6
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VILLIAME:
No. I don't mean on procedures. I mean in general. In lots of ditforent areas.
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structured the same so that supposedly a lot of people didn't report to T'
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involved in any problem in any department. Okay. So If I got
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other line managers. I think when you get to the engineering people
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.h like they f elt that Reading was not capable yet of responding. I just h.pi+ -
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there was nobody up there that could review one of Dick NQg Q.sy.. s.,.Q p:gA(.fn changes. Talking about off-site support I don't believe the people 4., ;,m$+
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Let me ask you a question in a different area. What was the general W,.
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philosophy that you imposed or would have wanted to impose on the 4r3 operating staf f in terms of their use of pr.edures and authority that g
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they had to deviate from procedures.
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Fersonally, I am procedure orientad, and always have been since I came MIII,ER:
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things. It meant to assure that we wrote something, reviewed it, tried it
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thh.iG My personal philosophy was you didn't F.
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from the guy that's on that panel up there.
u gut I have been N-m,.. 4 involved in some procedure probleme like when Unit I overfilled the vessel
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only way to run a place of this nature.
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[$f;'jf 1 can't do it that way I am gotas to do it some other way. 'Do you feet
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they just sort of work around it and let it go.
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given normal operation before he would call a halt to a process.
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Frobably a good bit.
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Was he in your opinic.n there as more of a ses.ior CEO then he was m.:p-P-
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f[M L."y Were you or was anyone taking any steps to try to untangle that
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Aonther questica from one of the earlier things you said
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Once a week I met with all the department heads and af ter that f,
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What was the nature of the kind of things you talked about?
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An awful lot of it was policy, getting things done or setting response 3,
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as time would allow.
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E.'.' =g '[.y EEATEN:
Cary to your knowledge was there ever a test done during the startup OcVe?ny of Unit 11 natural circulation?
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I think, there are two tests that come into my mind, but its been a long V % 2i; 2 time. Cooldown outside the control room and shutdown outsids the control
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circulation is kind of different then what you probably would today.
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EEATENI I au ping to ask this question now and this is sort of a
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that you were comfortable with the way things were.
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- I dont think t lat this plant was pushed into commercial operation.
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that If I thought we weren't ready I would have said so. Maybe I would
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MILLER:
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"i ready but we were light.
life
[l@%i Was there any advantage aside from the financial advantages of being 2.
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commmercial, was there any advantages in your mind or disadvantages Pi;,
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To be honest with you in'sy mind it was harder to go commercial because
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I lost some support.
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Do you understand the reason for the turnover in Unit Superintendent it.):$
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level?
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I don't know. I think one of the reasons is we had excellent people 1,.
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and another thing is I think the job was too hard. look at Seelinger e%-
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We have had some discussion of that. Fart of that st - =fnf from Q-
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Nobody wanted my job. That's what you are looking at. How asny guye 4'
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vanced the job. That's what you are telling me.
I can reensber
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Why did they say no.
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they didn't want to live here. We got to change that. Seelinger got to m
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I held two I very seldom p,
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bi'Myk And its not just that somebodys going to tell you how many hours to work
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M11. leg 1 think that hurt us a lot. Its hard to imagine what that does to you.
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I have one more guestion following these things sad then I want to shift
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Cary I want to get back to a question if 1 told you that the emergency f eedwateE Me lineup is wrong
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Yeah, it would.
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You mean it was wrong...
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The procedure didn't implement the design.
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That's exactly correct.
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Well okay how was the engineer known the design.
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What did the engineers use as a basis i.
That was my next question.
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I believe the engineer would have looked at the specific toch spec I.
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D.t.$?n The issue or point out is that the toch spec serves as the basis for te.w,mf f*[~M.,,.1 WALL. ACE:
everything that's done and yet the toch spec in their basis is not 2
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open area in procedures and in operations. You know its a regulatory We W.1%
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I don't know. It wouldn't it.
It would be hard to say it would hurt it.
I as not sure we would catch it.
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shut and test the, what are you testing those stupid check valves for that Wi;;y$
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tv m i(.g,.,,,-- MILLEas In the neighborhood of like 12-20. t. h ketN ; than what George said. In other words it was still 2^%.y That still lef t the guy his regular workload. ( . _ %g. Right now the Unit ! PORC la 30 hours a week. more than one job.
- .gs j, And they are not doing anything but the stuf f we are talking about
.t., If its 30 hours now it will be 60 if we are talking - NU d. doing next year. We are going to have to watch that. t!,'.Qj. about April 1 Di.g' Its 30 hours a week and what they are doing is what n all know they t,,.. p - s.. & s?.", - Stuff is changing everyday in design. .W: are reviewing changes to procedures. g/.M, Feople are saying they can't even set the chenje, can't even tell. the M75.4 gpi'. g;;,O., Charlie Eartman in the FORC i Its tough. . Q* ia. i criteria ao 30 hours a week and you are right there are 30 more hours of work [ C. i E i. And we are going to Isve that same problem up North. e f... t N !_ that need doing. gut I don't believe the Unit II PORC load af ter we went coassereial p(! ? if>l .w. 'I ittee. was much more than 12-20 and that's probably heavy for a cossa gps.;- d one ,. y .' Q, When you expect that you only have one electrical engineer an c,h Before that period 50% of his g g. a _ engineer that's still too heavy. ~ 9 J MW,., work load. g.,, e; s n; h. g. '... I want to give you some time to consent on a very broad question 4, '~ K/, u M.',. ifics. ~ M,4 KIATEE and if we have any time lef t of f I'll come back to more spec f'%. -+:-, ',; c You have had a lot of time to think about this p.,. D.h f them is ,.i.u there are several says of asking the next question one o ' { G..f. f rom your perspective today what are the things that we ought to do ' d,l7
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.....w- (( dif ferently in the future to minimize the probability of being jK What are the kind of questions that maybe .k' ' c.s TL51 in the situation we are now. L.', [,]i;; that we ought to have asked you that we haven't aske D, d you. ~e- .-g 'gg 'u= ' c. y 4. (f; " W; l hu. 1:. ty g.* e s 1 4 'yv i O. 2," s'..tf$ g aM n%ay.w s m gj e r..g s < ;. n. .) k:n t' .e Wh -= M $@M s m u.. M. I ,Tii{, I..,},.3 h !; a d l $Ik @
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saying they didn't believe. hy needed note information to confirm it. Q.,[ Ny I was in the front assin, so I didn't need any more information. Q Qf. s I {. ' Da ' f. 9 I did everything I could. f 7E @M*.J Because I as convinced that some guy like you had been looking at those 'd..} ,3 ! L'I Wi=y,] parameters at 9:00 in the morning and had told as four or five straight hy A. r ~isH I could never set any 8 v,;J
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e y.g n. Different set of criteria and a different twenty
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and they'll be there. p. .~. We resolved that and 1 %..l.l7 g,. " F We'll never have the same probles agalo. ,D ;'.Nm 14NC sometimes f eel that we focus so narrowly on that we still haven't .6.l got our hands on how we approach the nest problem that we doe't . : Y.L. [] -[, .'1..;y
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.L-R anticipate, and how we respond to it. L.-> e _. Q.;.,.. But I think that number one emergency planning is toins to be ~f[.7 r
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MIL.I.II: 2 :.y nQ You talk to other plant superir.tendent and they , M:7 sh.. a.. real beefing up. p;c.h.a b?...y will tell you they huddle on a yriday af tornoon and discuan it. . /. y.. p., m'. Ve ran the best emergency drills here in the cotstry I bet and I say - ' W..: SaJJ
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,y that because Jack forced as into that every year and if f.s hadn't 9.i, n.. c:w', m k.; 'j Saccr.41y. I think that ,t:'s L' 4 t< < M 1 would have been in trouble that day.
- k. " g technical analytical ability la the crisis has been changed.
.,yP - I think ... gl!*, py 7 ' f. >.7 its defined and look at all the coepanies they all got a tod4alcally z...~o. ,,;.,A.
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p I ','. i analytical group they call it what they want plus the NBC will probably. ,4,.. f ' V. p' M c~,- ..-[ . ?,t t. .7 I think yout best abot at the respond and analyse totally differently. M... ([. '"'l $y-next one is to be able to independectly evaluate it and tell the 3 _q . :: :. 4 t You can't do it like tie way we were doing '
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p' 1 ~; .r guy what to do whose there. bd. 51, It has to be, there has to be f.j, b Y'yh some things the day af ter the accident.
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,e 5p: m a guy making a decision. I don't care what you aty. A group don't ' 'p.
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..[.i-work. s.W.. r 4. . [.. ..e yet. . h. 6.{ !.,,j l Do you have any imprese1ons of the new simulator trainios. yr-h IANG: But of ,, {.,1 Jim Seelinger had excellent impressions of it.
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MIt.123s I have not. y f*. 'w.i . f a,- course he also watched thes so down there and talk about a s l'.,";.* N.
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gjg y Okay. I think .g P7 *g happens again its going to be outside the procedure. v. g.:.c". y thet we don't waat to set ta complicated. I like some of the etuf f. p t.T. l.n 3.? There still aren't that many prirciples is E' NG3t The heat transf er stuf f. if;y. h;. f We got ? u +aq this plant, and that's what we got away f rom ia my mind. p Dl;r;; into the matria and all the other stuff. I can remember when I had n *v;.s $NN a course in college dynamics"I'uI"i2tocomeinand [
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[ [' # . ', A nlK. write something on the board you couldn't do. L ~- ' What you had to do was think, and the first thing you had { d :'n.. w~.?q probles. f, There was no solution. w. /wg4 to do was what five principles apply. r .e... ,, g.,. I think we got to keep that kind of a freshness in the operator (c s. g ..a.- k. ',,. : ) g training, and not get to the point where he is going down a list
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I think k.6..'n The valves open, you go there you go here. .. ~ m c.. s of options. '. - ~..., ;g I really think that the most insportsat {!D.;-] that's where ve lose track. N thing we are doing ta the support we are going to give s-cte e. "l',. .w.- when it happens again, and that support is now organized. ~ y,$'N %.7 Eft.'.j.?2 * ? t.. u: c.,.. I hope the training becomes more uniformed and La closely looked v.. s .4 f.?, at from the standpoint is it having the desired effect and the other I[ NE.N l t thing you are talking about most of the priori:1 tion of informat os d,,. vw,,a J.:c;ha.s. 2;.$ sy that I mean somehow making sure that we are looking l you has. .[? f; ;,... it,.@. We being the shif t supervisor. .a at the right information we need. ?).? "..c4 That's hard to do but to me that's very important. f... s 4 J.;, Jg [, b., d w4M g i.s., c. o.4l l , e...,. g g y l K
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'T.:. :.. : %;,,y,,_;_. et.e m..i ra _ -- .-.r m- !_s : o.. M..:n, gM I MILLER: Zeve shouldn't have been out in secondary plant. 1 hat's where the N[y r# U;' *j Mr g...-k$ problems are. That's where the problema always were. We got to get EcM J[..
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it Bill Zewe wasn't even in the control room for the first hour. i.L.. v' S.;.i. # ,,}J People there were just doing their thing. G.
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LONC: Most of your response to the accident. But how about the reisted . s m .a c to the everyday operation and E U M of the plast. What do you think U, 1 ,.7 F *- 1 (g, Jf.e J.3 + y. ...w (? N... AM... IIIIIKE the key lessons there aref 4> y v;.., a
- i ..'M MILLER:
I think the superintendent that runs one of these has to be gives y' C:...' '.'.;*.1 He ? WS~g,.- a job with a scope that lets him worry about the safe operation. fy..* L-r p '. f.... d has to be the guy, his job has to be narrower then.we say we are going E; - p-le. -.
- iL MWM4 to do that, I don't think we've doce it yet. You said it on paper and f: t
%' ~.QC p k 1 think that you got to hold his job to that. You got to sacrifice j,4 M.y.N,; g f- '~[,?.E " that level of guy to run the operation, not to worry about security,
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that operation day to day. He's going to stay into it. I think the only y; tr y a. ra.4. answer is to get that guy in the right leval of detail. gecause thes yon w e L-W are going to find out whether f p4 '.. ).a. < Et
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because if you pick the right guy he isn't going to accept that level }lf L m. N.m.,6 E t .'*"e,? E of non-attention of things. f@ .....q r. h. Take the right guy de we of f er enough salary, enough incentive to get the t.
- 9. 9; WILI.1AMS:
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Mill,rt: I thina we do. I think we are close to it. I havs not seen any of j'] e a.- pglc'd 7.. m.a.. the people turn down any money but I haven't seen any of them leave e.8 ' l.O "." p3 p'...o n n y because of their a. alary, or benefits. I think we could do more and .suw g..} Op.M[ .Y D bus I think what we really got to look at is what are we asking his de Mj . 3.r. .c %f rt. 6 ', 2M p w,b:q5 with his time. 'I f3
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KEATENs Toen have to say that apparently we have been able to attract some k '.1
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MIIIIII The other thing is the demands on their time and the relationship p.,'7.4 1 rr. Lg. % 'i t. l
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so really tied up in our jobs that we forget that the rest of the world 6: :.. " m a, p.. ,y L:g.. is out there and IIas a management policy that's the kind of job
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r . :.t 7.,n MILLER: And you can't tell the guy to do that. You can't tell a guy to f'M M :,-l {;yj
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,.w . a s .4= k?;%.M And we haven't done that. I think that the way you do that is you can't p.. 'g e .T. [pfj.S'V5 expect him, look at Seelinger we had Seelinger involved in training - Q:Q ,.. >r A D'.:q 9 7,. ?..J and all kinds of stuff. Rey your job is operations and mainemaanes l.; t .t ,je ... jfVI of the plaat. I don't want you worrying about the probles , [j I ), lFlq r n d.'. 4 .j 4M that's what we got to do. Its as simple as that. I don't mean its that ~. a ;., *:=.,j staple. Its the number of people you put here to do a job. Tee it is. -M M.. M... w .-Q- . 1 P,. A.=
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ey. g-j that there is nobody,else here and you define his job it ain't going to be {,'.: ] y' ,~ .a 3 9 ~ 'j._St i'@ l that way because people don't come to you. It's got to be other people ,k 2 . Sm:t +e.,.,.. y.,j
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I d 1 I M1LLER: If there is a good shot at avoiding or keeping the operation to a high d.%ria:mm.1 l p quality its in the, number of people you put in and the coenitment you give .C 4 ry' ttt j .Pr. p'.v *... I f.% "> J to those people. 4:1:.:Cf:..A N.c..F... 9 WILLIAMS: What can you do dif ferent? Are you going to do anything dif ferent. 4 p e, g -M- . s w~ d ~ ) You have the same role of directors and orchestrators there. Are things wwe .-.r.+.,r...., P. ' t;.T.i..S.: - V ( going to be different/ Can they change at this point? br 4.#. EEATENs Asking the same question in a dif forent way, don't mean to put you on a $7.hl5 h
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j .u. h spot but this directed towards putting you on a spot are we in fact O.y?..r.; -- {j'fM.id 3 really doing that. p y,,,g... 3 MILLER: It appears to se that we are trying to do it with a Superintendent. Fl e.'.G F i a t q,e..[.% g.. 'IN You know if you look at the way we define their.tobe in the future we haven't e,.s- + (H done it yet. I think we are doing more than superficial things but - M,.i D E . m y
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its hard to tell that before you start. A lot of people don't even think . "N
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r. 4:. u e.1 . j, s[I 1 I k (u.;n.,. T about operating right now, because of the position we are in. But % p';.'- g [., we got to have more people to do the function in operating the plant ,- f',$g':'lA. =: ( , z.3,, w than va do now. A guy like myself right now I'm over in Unit 1 ,.f'h'O p g.;.m.c .t p now and I have 10 other areas probably. Other areas are low activity W.y.;:p
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..g v. f(.J ..g A h; 'g (NE, wery well and may.be I wouldn't do any better if I was one step Ip" L*d up as far as secountability but we don't have accountability at the right. h.,,,,yp.i *,% c h. level. MW.,1 c. p< r.g .,v.-
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' R % *O,Y* W.(K.S&*V.$.Q*55:~Q[b::Q'~5WM$N'D-C'IC~EM-$.n.5 V.hii4&r>_?$ &(& p-w. ww.+ p.er-rw%.:*A*.v.r:w%g.;py;w-u;;w.w.:. ;-xf.C g;.. x.'i.+ glT$l".n e =p.e w P.. 7,y-. ..n... .,._ c._.n... ~,. t - b LA.. e . e_t. =. m.n,.. _.2 __m. s u . c -- e -n-- ~ ~ - - ~ . ~ - 9,;..,.M, t. c-, m. pj M1u tR: I think from a Superintendent's standpoint though from wh at I've ...n q ~ l psy. f.j seen on the charts and philosophically a lot will allow the superintendant N, 4.qQ: v. k... hei $.E :... W.h to worry more abou the operation than pre-accident. k ;2 C ".] KEATIN: Row do you get that accountability? .N,.Th5 l;.
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[* y MIR ER: You have to take a chance a suys soing to aske a mistake. That's t?/ G~W a.. what you have to do. Then you have to hold him accountable and that f-e.J - t ety...
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fH. .Et i means if people aren't doing the job you have do something about it. W8 7 5: imp WIRIAMS: But you have to be willing to say I don't know Jack let's set so and so M.e3[- p* p. $;) a a >. A.. -h in. ~. r -.. MIEIR: But it ain't just Jack. I don't Arnold, or I don't know 5 w:, J. A. y s'" - WIRIAM5: Jack runs to the same tune I realise that. 1fu J.. e.i. c,- [c:..;,;q - r MIEER: I think its you know Dan Showlin is the maintenance guy and if 8aW at m.Z n [- ;1 he's allowed to have ten maintenance guys why do I care how he has them kb.
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does it. He's the ' guy that sigt.s up for it. That's the difference. He's. i h ,s. ;... r
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the guy that signs off on it, not as, not Jack, not Arnold and we haven't done.' f(iL 13
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.,'.,i that because I don't think the system shoves it up. The organisational p,1 A. i h. 1 f,.m. w. . !T EFIIER method we use which says that you set something more out of it y e.P .... I .a La: c- ;' if you get a higher level of assignment, what that does tf.c^n'.. z -, ta p..,. ky -$ IANC: The traditional utility system. %.L.-
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'-J ~ ',' d MIEER: And I don't kncv that. =, L n.... [ 14NCs That's why I mention those two becausa I do know those two la particular g r..... y,.; and I suspect some of the others could name some others but I do Ef(~'; w '. @ f;j know from persons 1 experience. f %.,,, l MIEIR But that 's the key to me. There are two sides to that now. People who - f.h l NY have never been held accountabile. How aany people have ever been fired gi'.N,'
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a p . c. L, 5, Nff t 8a I think from a Superintendent's standpoint thoush from wh at I've "?as.4., 6.,- d-r. j.., F Tj seen on the charts and philosophically a lot will e.Ilow the superintendent ' '. liq.Es i g' tw :. O to worry more abou the operation than pre-accident. N.N[ k y... :Lu [~Q EZATIM: Bow do you get that accountabilityt d r;- T, L i [*,M MILLER: Tou have to take a chance a guys going to aske a mistake. That's . h C?.t .i (Crd ,;..+... @ G-what you have to do. Iben you have to hold his accountable and that L' bH. s means if people aren't doing the job you have do something about it. T'3.e *q~ 9 m,4 m, t y '. i la - WILLIAMS: gut you have to be willing to say I don't know Jack let's get so and se ti.M; i, r F...o ge. W-
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W;... L,. W 3-s 2] MILLER: But it ain't just Jack. I don't Arnold, or I don't know n di L- .5 zc a rh.M... u. ' . 1 WILLIAM 5: Jack runs to the same tune I realise ths.t. ' f,%.i +. - c g;,- L.. y MILLER: I think its you know Den Shov11a is the maintenance guy and if
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And I don't know that. =, M:I -I.,4 ' 'i p'.,2 ;-.e 8 3 d; 4 r.:, A., LONC: That's why I mention those two because I do know those two in particular j ;.m h.1- [. . and I suspect some of the others could name some others but I de E ,E, 'M. know from personal experience. gh.,:.'.] m '. a,.. fN3. ,j .m j. I MILT.ER: gut that 's the key to me. There are two sides to that now. People who ..,h.: 3.. H,... a y-1 have never been held accountabile. How many people have ever been fired M Dis $1R is this companyt y;-g,y c.c c t -pm w w
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~; problema right now and I am just going to go out and deal with them. 65 :CtW :.. b2 If I'm the guys base and he ain't doing his job I should be able to g.g '. i.. d 2:W.g , E. inn - A sit down with him two or three times document it and has gone. h.h h r, p Why can't you do that? .prisg-L,.m +%,w LN. KEAIDI: MILLER: Because I don't have authority to do that. I don't have the authority T ~~ff. (.# w 1 [.; E b.. to do that. Never had. I don't have the authority to fire and hire.
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/ . l.WT....::,. I have the authority to be a part of the chain and a big part of it '1 ..c p.? .. y %..4.h' ": I fired a shift foreman took me a year and a half. n., . h,C.% - .e but I can't do it. L 9 They said it cossidn't be done that's the only reason I kept after it, t 'h.i.T*, "." ; p.: w pU;...\\.n... p. '.i. f;;;. Where is the bottleneck la this process? Personnel department, assageasst i~* .O :.7.- KEATEN: / E pg.;;f7 t.. '~ M.t. 1 4, above you or what? s Its in the way we do business.' ....'l',". j,. I It would take Jack Berbeia to Iga off ^ E:T.PP .s.s! .- :...i MILLER: and Jack Herbein and when they sign off on .h;- on that anybe Henry 1 kl1
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Because they are now signing off they're now the authority. , e. ~ r.. E of that. ,v.. v... r.. and they got to do it on a basis that they cas . J. . (?f R.- h.., ~ W Wlr. ' t : WALIACE: Thats the accountability. .4 3 g. . 9
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~ U 'a MILLER: y - .n,... .' 2. :.'..} have it, his maintenance supervisor don't have it, his saintenance'
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r g. - 2. sC ' %yr We are staffing off with more people. We needed more people but ~ * . f?yc..,, rj Just my own opintoa. C;i.; n. g.. ? T.9 becaces I think sons people are riding too easy.
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.., _;. q., t f a. , ; ; -. A,. >. g. ; n, p..: ; - -.* e s s. ,,,3. s... s, O.,; J.p.. g... e.**:4q..., ,,,g.g,, r.... p..;,....% .o ;. a ::.?p . w.~.. y.s.- - - .. _.,m. m 9 .e ..- ~ .a. ~f'c'.~"*- _n_ ' Q g.,1 ny The trouble is you got to accept the fact a guy may aske a mi$take. ' MILLER: 3 w. s. p And you also got to create an environment for his where he can accept 5.h {q v!LLIAME: -#y.;. :t. - 7.*/ e _( that accountability.
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N MILLER: That's right. You can't just do it in a day. You saw the classic case t %., :~7.. _: O right in here with Hamilton. Okay that piece of paper came through as f,-,,. q . g'..;,. A2 for one of his people. Why should I sign that piece of papert That's .a..,. g-r. I.7 :-d m,e.a If gill Fels and Wayne Barris deserve a raise and Wayne and Mr. Mamilton e e::..w.. I,{ true. p'., has gone to the Personnel and Salary people and they have said thats . 8f ;.%4 g, [1,. - v. l.., uj y 3, not outside the guidelines and the position description meets the guide-
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Then why should Gary Miller and Jack Herbein reviet that. @..~f-?,
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s s,s. v {, b.b.~. KEATENs The really frustrating thing about that particular one is that the sees and that salary increase for them was originatt3 by wage and salary people. , 4..g ; 1 k.J 3 ...M W.V '. 3 - - ~ t,. '.1, I j MIU.ER: Teah, but q,- y y q. ~ ) e,
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r.,. y . =i p. MILLER: ar-. ? $1. .[ WILLIAMS: And by the time you resolve it they'll be gone. y.. w 1 y. se.., te-But I as saying accountability is to taking a chance and the guys going 8 J.*. F _q', MILLEX: W. ~.., l ( - $l And it also when you don't do it it takes tias to do F.,n-to make a mistake.
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If a guy don't do his job do something about it. p 7 W.M., h W12 %: [i KEATEN: You're scared of getting accountability. m.4.,w;r L N h r. N We had a hundred and one thousand examples of that on March 28. [ p.l. C p 1 w.: 4 b...~. w I, p*f. **. G ( '. M... *' wie~ a :"Jd,'k,. ' I . L.s w - 4..... A y Q. i.e.:.M,.; r.,.>m P - s f.M * * '.-- b.i >......e.,,..- 8. ,* *^. - < .. ', 4. =.s ;, y
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