Text

Unofficial Transcript of 810312 Meeting in Washington,Dc Re SECY-81-20/20/20A/20B Policy on Proceeding W/Pending CP & Mfg License Applications.Pp 1-44
	ML19350B576
Person / Time
Issue date:	03/12/1981
From:	; NRC COMMISSION (OCM)
To:	;
Shared Package
ML19350B577	List: ML19350B576; ML19350B587; ML19350B589;
References
	REF-10CFR9.7 SECY-81-020C, SECY-81-20C, NUDOCS 8103230049
	Download: ML19350B576 (47)
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DISCUSSION OF SECY-Gi-29/20/20A/203 POLIC'l ON PROCEEDING UITH PENDING CONST'4UCTION PERMIT AND '!ANUFACTUU.ING LICENSE APPLICATIONS

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IUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSIC!I 3:

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DISCUSSI0!I 0F SECY-81-20/20A/203 5

g POLICY ON PRCCEEDING WITH PENDING CONSTRUCT!0!I PERMIT 3

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A:lD MANUFACTURING LICE:!SE APPLICATIO:IS i

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8 Nuclear Regulatcry Cc==issicn J

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i Thursday, March 12, 1981 E

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The Ccamission cet, pursuant to notice, at 10:10 a.m.

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JOSEPH M. HE:IDRIE, CF. airman, presiding.

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15 JOSEPH M. HENDRIE, Chairman w=

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' LICTOR GILINSEY, Oc=missioner

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17 i PETER A. BRADFORD, Commissioner w

m 18 JOHN F. AHEA?JtE, Commissioner 19-A T C O D. S..T C T'IT. -

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CHAIRMAH HENDRIE:

The Commission will come to order.

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The Commission meets this morning to continue its 1

4 discussion on the pending construction permit and manufacturing e

5 license applications.

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There are a lot of papers and I am working my way R

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I think the pertinent one is SECY-81-20C, the staff l

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8j on the proposed rule for construction permits and manufacturing c.

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9l licenses was asked to make some changes in the draft that was i

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11 i They have made some changes and are b1ck with this.

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There are some other questions that have arisen that we can z

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Bill, why do I not ask you to tell us about the l

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15 20C paper and associated endeavors?

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? -16 l MR. DIRCKS:

Bob Furole has done the work so he n

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may as well start discussing it.

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E 18 f MR. FURFLE:

We believe we have done all we were i

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asked to do in the Staff Requirements Memorandum of March 2 0th.

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affected the section in the Proposed Rule called " Substance 22 l of the Rule."

We have prepared a new version of that which I

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is Enclosure 1 to the paper.

It was prepared jointly by t

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ELD, CGC and myself.

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I believe it accounts for all the elements that were 1

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1, asked for from the last meeting.

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There were specific requests for certain changes to 3

the rule proper, for example, the deletion of the sentence 4

in the very opening paragraph of the rule that made reference a

5' to "necessary and sufficient."

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We will do that as we finalize the rule but we have e

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retyped the entire rule for this neeting and put it into the e

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9 We were asked to describe the r le of the required

.z th 10 studies in the rule and what plans the staff has to review the f

g 11 results and requirements for these plants in contrast to a

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E 13 l With respect to the study requirements, we have i

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explained in this paper very briefly how we intend to approach uz 2

15 i those; the intent shows up on page two.

What we would propose az j

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-is to include specific conditions in the C?s requiring submittal A

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E 19 i COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

That goes beyond simply X

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1 20 l requiring the licensee to submit a plan for a study?

21 MR. PURPLE:

That is correct.

In order to get the i

22 CP, the first paragraph on the top cf page two is an attempt i

23 to describe what we would need to see and be satisfied with as a prerequisite for'getting the CP in this area.

It goes on 24 i say the C? itself would be conditioned to ensure these C

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studies are submitted to us for review.

2 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:

The rule itself at the moment 3

does not require the studies.

What you are saying is the staff 4

intends'to require them?

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5i MR..?URFL2:

The rule implies they be submitted.

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ne 6l It says they have to tell us what the submittal dates are.

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COMMISSIOhdh SRADFORD:

The rule itself requires j

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MR. PURPLE: That is right.

I think it calls for

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It does not clearly call for them o

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12 which says they must tell us submittal dates.

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's where the pending rule for C?s and MLs go beyond the GL 15 !

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16 l requirements.

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I had to pick a baseline, a point of reference,

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requirements is the NURRG-0737 document, recognizing some of 6b 19 i

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these items that say "there are no NTOL requirements" is not i

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the real world because, for. instance, if you look at item (1) n on the first.page that talks about providing hydrogen Ocntrol, 1

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least 23 we have been requiring hydrogen control measures, a:

24 on ice condenser plants coming up.

item on the page called " Purging,"

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1I we are certainly applying purging limits to present new OLs, l

2I it is just that item was not in NUREG-0737.

3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Let's take sinulators.

Is 4 l, there any requirement on operating plants?

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to have its own simulator that correctly codels its plant

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control.

We are not requiring that, to the best of my i

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UR.LE: That is what this item wculd be.

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We are requiring it 22 i We do not have a policy yet fo-the OLs.

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There are about 27 or so simulators 1a N

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MR. PURPLE:

We were asked to get with l

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Commissioner Gilinsky since last Thursday to discuss --

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3efore you get to that, I

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on the B&W design sensitivity, referring to 0737, there is N

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How does what you contend for CF3 dif fer d

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There is no intent to be any different.

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operating reactor B&Ws.

The reason it says "None" under i

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reactors, the,".had already done and made their submittals ax 16 and the staff has it under review.

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I can see I asked the wrong az 18 !

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What I meant to do was get a feeling for what was i

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MR. DENTON:

I think Sob is prepared to give you

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0737 is being done on OL plants.

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If you could just highlight' 25;j the significant differences, the items where there ' is a L

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significant difference.

Obviously in the B&W design 1

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sensitivity --

3 MR. PURPLE: That is not a significant difference.

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5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Simulators.

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The very first item is a major n

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We have not across the board required full plant Aj 8l site specific probablelistic risk analyses'and we are on d

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develooment of what procedures ought to look like.

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not.one where the staff has not develeped all its criteria.

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That is synptom oriented procedures.

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MB. PURPLE:

We are asking these C?s to move ahead w

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In the control room design area, the difference i

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here might be considered significant in that what we are a

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that the applicant or licensee does and then what-fixes can

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reasonably be dene to improve the control room.

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submit after post-CP a control room design that would be as i

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'his may well cause

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significant changes in the present designs that these cps I

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i 3i Safety parameter display system, it is in 0737 4

but it is there with "the to be determined" page because i

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a final decision as to whetner this is to be required or not.

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7l In this case, for the cps, we have said there will

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be one in the rule.

If you approved this, you would be d

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understanding this is called for on new plants but all the a

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plants up alsc, but we have not done it yet.

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it was an item deferred to FY 1982 and beyond.

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j 20 Here we would pick it up and require these people do it, i

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I guess you would call that not a big delta to i

1 22 f a new OL coming in today, the ones we are issuing recently.

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We have already mentioned hydrogen control.

24 Purging is not a big difference.

There is-no big difference 25 on ECCS challenges.

This is an item and it says "None" in I_ -

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only because it was an item that was crdered of 31W plants.

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They have made their sdtmittals and staff is reviewing them.

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licensees to do, t

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That is not a big n

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We intend the same thing as what we had required of the n

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The reascn

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this says " Hone" in 0737 is because :he intent is that would 8

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That would be the central location.

When 0737 went out, it x

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experience, the only real difference here is the action 1 plan 21!

item only relates to operating. experience for operating

- l, 22 l,crganizations.- We have expanded it logically.here to say i

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4 au 1l On I.F.1 and I.F.2, expanded QA List and the ;A 2

Program, neither of those itets are being applied in the 3

sense that they are in the action plan to new plants and 4

certainly not across the board to operating reactors.

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5l action plan develops, both of these, the actions with the 3

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staff to develop some criteria and come out with those e

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E 10 i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

This is a more systematic

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MR. PURPLE:

It is more systematic.

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a little bit ahead, like long tern procedures.

This area

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will be a little difficult because we do not have our own u

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It will be sort of like what s

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18 I COMMISSIONER SRADFORD:

Do you see a license

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'ihat happens if the licensee

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then goes and changes the QA/QC Program a year er two after i

21 they have the CP?

I 22 MR. PURPLE:

I guess I would see the QA ?

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24 in the license, much as tech specs are in the operating i

25 license stage..You would not then be'able to change it in any i

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significant way.

2 MR. DIRCKS:

We have a proposed rule ou on that 3

subject, that would apply to all construction, all plants 4

in the construction that would require them to report changes I

e 5i in the QA/QC Program.

I j-6 CCMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:

That would require them to a

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report changes.

Would it also enable us to make them adhere Nj 8:

to the QA/QC Program as originally described to us?

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What is it that makes the QA/QC Program z.

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11 l MR. CUNNINGHAM:

To do that, we would have to put I

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it-in a license condition.

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Is there anything pending?

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l 14 l Is that part of the propcsal that is down for cc= ment?

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MR. CUNNINGHAM:

Unless the other rule covers that.

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We will have to get a copy of that l

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rule.

I think the intent was to hold them to the QA/QC j

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Progra:.. that was proposed and if they make changes, then hold

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them to the proposed changes.

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MR. DENTCN:

As I recall, we felt like the question i

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of enforceability on some of these Onings did not have to be i

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decided in this rule,-

ince there are not any issuances 23 imminent and we could decide that and still put it in the 24 i license as a "ondition next year or whenever actions will i

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l 13 1

deal with -- I am sorry.

The next two items, dedicated 2I penetrations and containment capability are the ones that 3

flow from our conaideration of the degraded core rulemaking.

4 Those would be very unique and new to these C?s.

g 5

The last item, organization for construction, is na j

6 obviously new.

These are construction permits.

Ncthing had R

7 been done on ors and OLs.

M j

8 COMMISSIONER GILINSEY:

Thank you.

d d

9 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

Bob, can you go back for Y

i f

h 10 a minute and I guess control room design is as good an example 3

l 11 as any, of where they are clearly going to be submitting a 3

12 j study while the plant is under construction.

The staff will

=

13 then' review that presumably at some time prior to the time 5=

i z

i g

14 the consrol room itself is ordered or built, at least at wk 2

15 the time when changes can be made.

a 3

g MR. DENTON:

I think we would take the same approach 16 '

I w

l b-17 ;

we did with the risk assessment studies that they are able l

w F

E 18 to be incorporated in the design and be submi-ded

=

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}

19 ;

sufficiently in advance of any actual construction.

5 20 !

COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Suppose you see something in i

l 21,

that study that just seems like a really terrific idea and the f

I l

22 licensee is not very anxious to do it.

'4 hat tools do you I

t 23 '

then have available to persuade him to do it or to get it l

24l ' made if it really seemed important?

i l

25 l COMMISSIO"ER AHEARNE:

The terrific idea -- it is a

'O hl 1

l L

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a 4l COMMISSIOUTR SRAD CRD:

_eafing aside the questien e,

5 c." *4h a. b.e r

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7 safety and the licensee disa rees.

e N

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i 8

MF.. " UN'i~.'IG.n'.". -

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wa_

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9 !

crder for modification of license and we can effer a hearing.

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i 18 tremendous idea the plus.

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3 construction.

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g 6 l' thenselves as a result c" these studies to nake these changes?

4 M_

i a.

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8l in o"de"?

Do you expect real tussles?

.ud 9

M.m.. DENTON:

I is an a"ea in which we do not have z.

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10 da-

. w. e d a..c.* ". _*. _* v a. 3"._aa.ce o-we xvu'd o""-s. s^

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11 j issue that.

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assessment as it go es ' along?

24 1

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i 1i by a final product.

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he"e, that we would want to be involved in %newing how they 3 i

a. a_

s c ^n7.4.. ~. k. a.*.* ap e.-^- _o c."..

_* *., o. k.e "'a ' s a.

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14j risk of their coming in with a design that we think is I

g 5i unaccept ab le.

e i

N g

6 It is more jawbcning during these mid-course i

-n 7l directional meetings.

1 M

l 8l MR. PUR?LE:

We were asked to meet with Commissicner L

}

9j Gilinsky to go over scce of the technical requirements in z

i o

i k.

10 i ha. -".'a..

Wa. d_'d

..k.a..

As a.a.su'.

v^#.k.a. r.ea..*n

, 7 e

m 4

z 11 have-handed out this norning an addenda Oc the SECY paper 3

J 12 which eally =c'difies Paragraph 5 of the SECY paper by saying-z:

I n

13 !

there are two more changes to the rule. hat we would propose M

i 14 i, o

4...

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s x

w s

i 15,

T.ha.

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cna_ da_ a_' s w'. k..

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k..a..au.e m

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m I

f 16 l our intent that if the option for hydrogen control is by 2

Q 17.

burning or distributed ignition systems, that equipment I

w g

z 18 1 necessary-to achieve and maintain safe shutdown will w

=

9 i

6

{

19 l survive the environment of the burning.

_n i

20 l MR. DEUTCU:

We had intended this but it was nct

. ". a.

21,

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m..k.a. __ a ~^cd o

e Tx _s 23

-.i.

e 2<4 i MR.. FUR?LE:

The seccnd cne dealt with. purging.

2

.e _angua.e on O'e. adder.da *dou'd r^p'_ ace t'.79 p r9 5 9T.'.

n 9

s t

et

__f

_f

l l

-4 j

1 i

1l language that is in the proposed rule as shown.

I 2

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Cc=missioner Ahearne points out 3

that item two is a trifle overspecified.

I suspect that you i

l 4

cannot simultaneously minimize the purging time and the purge 5 l' line size.

e

,en 6!

MR. DENTON:

I think we will have to work on that.

~

e a

n R.

7i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

I think what I would sa~cest s_

l

_n t

j 8'

is putting a limit on the purge line and then talk about J

9; minimizing the time.

=

i oh 10 i.

MR. PURPLE:

We talked o"ust before the meetin z

I

=

j 11 and had a way of suggesting a fix.

One is that the line size 5

'J 12 l problem, we believe, is associated with the fact that the z

=

E 13 l bigger the line is, ycu may end up with big mechanical valves l

Z l

3 14 l that are difficult to ensure they are going to close.

--k E

15 l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

The line size only has importance w

i E

i l

g 16 l in that connotation.

If you had a ad inch valve which was s

l y

17 {

used all over the place and it had'never been known to fail w

E i

i j

E 18 '

and you had great confidence in it, line size would be no l

=s E

19 problem.

=

i a

i 20l These big butterflies are a little flaky so y.u 21f would like a smaller line, more standard and =cre muscular 22 valve.

f f

i 23 '

MR. PURPLE:

What we are thinking at the accent is 24 '

the second sentence would take care of that because they 25 would have to demonstrate high assurance that it will close l

4 l

L.

I I

I

.a.

1 i

l l

1 no matter what size the valve is.

1 i

2j COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Rather than trying to i

3 instantaneously construct the language, if we are going to I

4I go out with a rule, probably we should put v. ore thought into l

[.

g 5l it.

I think we all agree wi th one ecncept.

It is to get the t

n D

1 i

i g

6, concept stated sufficiently clearly that not only you who wrote f

i nCa 7

it but the people who have to try to design to it understand e

g 8!

what it says.

d i

y 9l MR. DENTON:

In Bob's defense, he wrote this z

O g

10 in overtime hours after 5: 00 p.m.

last night.

z=

11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Is that a general conclusion i

3 y

12 we should reach for the overtime hour work?

j

=

4 g

13 l CHAIRMAN-HENDRIE:

That is the problem with unpaid i

x f

f 14 ':

overtime.

-w

_ g r.a go.u.m. _r u.. )

r a

z-i g'

16 l MR. DENTON:

Let me j ust say somitth'.ng about w

i l

(

17 purging, to be sure I understand what the Commission's intent 2

1 l

18 !

s i

l

[

19 l CHAIRMAN HENDRIR:

Commissioner Gilinsky's intent.

A l

20 i MR. DENTON:

If you have an entirely closed i,

21!

containment and you never purged, you would have two problems.

t l

22 The radiation levels would increase inside due to leakage 23 '

and there would also be air leakage and pressure would go up i

24 due.to minor leaks.

i 25 You could conceivably design air compressors inside 1

i d

t

'L

i I

,a 1l containments that took supply and you could put in high i

l 2i pressure tanks to contain the air that leaks and so forth, 3

all of which would more or less bar entry to the containment.

i 4l I think there is some safety advantage being able to enter 5:

one of these big containments and get around.

~

e E

n 6

This comes to when you vent the containment, you e

i i

E 7'

want to be very sure it will close under accident conditions.

Nj 8

We can construct a rule that will assure that they have d

9{

valves, such as gate valves and globe valves which can z

l c

h 10 be shown to be reliable and you can put more than one of these z

=

t l

in series if necessary and you can have them tested under Q

11,

i 12li accident conditions and we can have a high degree of assurance

=

l 13 i that such valves will close.

m

=

i 5

14 j If you agree with that being the int ent, we can sx 2

15 l better write it.

M,,

i j

16 '

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

That was my thought.

A i

e j7 i COMM.SS. hen Au._a,nus:

,fe s.

v

.c w

M z

E 18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

In fact, if you have a high a

-c M

I k

19 level of ccnfidence in the reliability Of your purged line F.

20 isolation valves, then considerations ever what fraction of I

21 all operating hours you purge and so on becc e considerably 1,

1 22) less important.

Ycu are then concerned only with the i

from releases 23 '

Appendix I considerations, the exposures, 4

24 )

and-occupational exposures and that is it.

i 25,

If you are sure the valves can close, you can vent a

.r"

1 2n.

l 1 !

all the time.

I 2'

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

That is what I said yesterday.

3 MR. DENTON:

We will rewrite that and 3:ste it i

4l in official language.

e 5I COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Clear language.

There would n

N

]

6l be no confusion by the recipients with that section and your

-n 7

section.of the provision of a three foot pctential venting.

N g

8; MR. PURPLE:

I think not since there is a reference d

i d

9l to an action plan item that would certainly clarify it when z

i.

.W 10 l they go back and read what that was all about.

z i

E 11.

The final items in the 81-20C paper are things that i

B y

12 you did not ask us to do but in the course of reviewing the

.=

i 13 i document between last week and now, we found two places where

=

z

=

14 '

we can remove scmething from the rule.

That is on page two

.w 3

2 15 of the-paper.

xz j

16 j We had carried along an item III.A.3 3, t

\\

i 17 j communications.

We think it is unnecessary t'.at be in the x

x E

18 !

rule since there is'a regulstion now in place, 50.72, that

-w I

19 requires what this c0.lle.1 for.

It will end up being required

=

i b

l 20 !

'any way.

There is no point in repeating it in this rule.

21 Item 5b on page two, those really were II.K ^.25 i

?

22_]

and.II.K.I.lc which are the same.

They got into the action i

23 plan through different origins.

One was orders issued to 24 ;

B&W plants.

It is the same _ requirement but as it appeared N

....O.N.O D..

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v4 QMM O

O

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1 3 i and say it is applicable to everybody.

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containment heat removal systems.

We see that as being the 3

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i 4j COMMISSIOiER 3RADFORD:

Is ancthen way of saying 4

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15 l or inerting works, it is a success.

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you have enough volume and strength so that whethen or not x

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i 21

=cved beyond hydrogen and have protected the containment, i

22 l in either.cne, if big containments and small centainments i

23 '

have working containment heat. removal' sys as, they would i

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i 25 would be to keep a residualspressure built up within the J

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oc

-s 1l has a built in reliability which is quite good.

Not an awful 2l lot of things have to work.

'fou have to have enough 3

electricity to get the globe plugs hot when the switch is i

4 i, turned on.

Once you have done that, the ignition e

5 characteristics of hydrogen in the containment atmosphere 2

I N

i 8

6!

operate according to the rules of God and the universe and e

Nji 7

not according to mechanical devices built by fallable N

8 human beings.

N 1

0

=

9 As a control system, it has a rather nice straight

-i

^

1 E

10 i forward and also highly redundant character because there E

I

=

E 11 j are a lot of ignitors; failure of a single igniter or e

_n d

12 l a number would not totally defeat the system.

z i

4

=

1 E

13 l I "egard the incremental difference between the i

s.

E 14 ML units xith the hydrogen ignition system and the appropriate x9w E

15 i containment hee. removal system -- what you might think about x

i z-16 i for future generation of plants where you would like to improve B

i 4

i i

17 j the level -- I guess I can perceive some difference.

It is a

m 18 l Just this question of maybe you will not have power for the

=

l w

I 19 l ignition system or a switching "o d'"~e.

X l

b i

20 '

I do not find that difference very great.

In my I

21 l view, certainly not great enough to offset the fact that t

22 this proposition for the manufacturing license units has 23 been before the Agency going on ten years and there has been 24 a substantial investment in facil*, ties and design for the 25 concept, even though that is not reflected in a specific f

a

eo 1!

unit to be built which is definable at the present point.

I i

2l That is the nature of the manufacturing license, 3

the whole concept was let's see a design, get it well in hand 4

and in effect license it and it is acceptable under the safety 5l regulations and so on and thereby standardice, speed up the e

i n

N l

8 6!

subsequent process when the site was identified.

Ng 7

My view is it is very difficult to sell a M,

8 8

manufacturing license unit especially today until you have N

d d

9 the manufacturing license.

z.

^

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10 ;

Whereas with one off CP, the fact that certain z

i i

5 11 utilities declared they are going to build a plant gives the

<t 4

12 l thing a site identified perception of reality that the MLs z

E I

13 l do not have.

That is atrinsic in the nature of the thing.

==

=

E 14 It seems to me they ought to be treated as being ww I

E 15 '

part of this group.

I 3 tuck in a rather long philosophical z

az on behalf of MLs under the guise of the reliability 16 '

argument 3*

i 17 i of hydrogen ignition systems.

I thought that was pretty good w

8 l

5 18 work.

I will give you a chance.

w COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

Can somebody tell me I

19 X

l

=

'ype with a big containment 4

20 j if ycu could build a plant of that t

21-or would that'make the concept completely unfeasible?

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

I think the weight of the I

22 l

23 containment is rather slight.

It is. probably more a size l

24 problem.

MR. DENTON:

Yes, you could but a large part Of the 25 I

f

2-8

-l I

l

\\

1; testing of this concept has been its ability to withstand i,

2' waves and rocking and storm surges.

If you change the 3

profile, you would have those issues.

i I

4l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

There is a design which is I

g 5

really very well along based on a certain configuration and en 6 ';

a change to a large dry containment, I would guess it would t

M 2_

7 amount to a redesign of the whole proposition.

I think at M

8 8l this stage that is sort of a new acclication.

n g

d I

n 9l The present one does not seem to me against the z

y 10 l present and proposed plants including the near serm CFs to z

=

l-E 11 be in any sense deficient.

<k d

12 I do not think the present organization could z=

d 13 i survive, having spent nine years trying to get a license

=

i E

14 l and then be told tc go back and prepare for nine more or w

9 i

z 2

15 !

several more at the least.

ax 16 John?

kj 6

17 l COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

You raised earlier a question i

.az E

18 of a potential deficiency in the notice and comment.

I guess 5

l E

19 '

I would like to understand that.

Could someone explain that?

=

M CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

We ce'rtainly want to discuss that.

20 j i

21l COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

I thought you were talking 1

22 l about the issue in general.

i, 23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

I wanted a sense from ycu i

as to how you stood on the manufacturing license question.

24 t

s 25,

COMMISSIONER.AHEARNE:

I am willing to include it.

i r

e

I I

23 1,

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Peter, nay I make a preliminary I

2 sounding of where you stand without getting the Commission 3

tipped over into some irrevocable decision?

4 Anything said here is subject to revocation at e

5 the eption of the sayer by sundown.

,n N

8 6i COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

That is a sweeping statement.

e

~

M f

2 7:

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

I do not care to make that l

M j

8!

a general rule of the Commission.

I de want people to U.

I d

9 be hopelessly tied to any indication opinicn t hey give.

z n

E.

10 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

John did raise the question z

5-11 about a deficient comment process.

If in fact the matter is

<3 i

4 12,

to go out for another short period of comment, I certainly have z

=

i S

13 i no objection to including in that the question o f what to do m

i E

14 about the manufacturing licenses or to send it out with the a5 I

m manufacturing license in and let people comment.

2 15 wz 16 i CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

You would hold at the moment 3

i a

i F

17.'

on --

aw I

18 !

COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

If it turns out it is not il, i

-=

i I

19 l going out again, then I would have to figure out hcw my vote x

5 l

20l works.

I am not inclined to vote f'or a. rule of this type 21 i any way.

l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

With the other three cf us, 22 !'

i f

23 we are two to one in favor of where I would like to go on the 24 rule.

I think down the line I will approach you with a 25 proposition'that if you do not think it sho uld b e a rule, yo u m

^Ac:

1 might want to consider abstaining on the question of whether I

2l MLs are in or out.

3 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:

Then I have to choose between i

i 4 !

statesmanship and sabotage.

i e

5:

(LAUGHTER.)

i n

6l COMMISSIONER GILEJSKY:

Off-shore power systems

-a i

2 7i to be heard out before we take action.

l

~

M l

8 8!

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

I think their view would be I

d d

9l since my understanding is they wanted to be included in the z

oy 10 l rule that if we vote to include them, I doubt they would want z

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E 11 to be heard.

They would simply say to go for it.

On the

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j _zo s I not sure whether or not -- we 7.ay thereby have developed an 1 2l obligation en our part to either do that or tell parties 3, we are not going to do it henceforth or we are not going to i 1 4! do it in sone particular case. i g 5 MR. BICKWIT: I would like to look into it. ea \\ .g o' COMMISSIONER AEEARNE: How long will i: take you? n 4 5 7: MR. BICKWIT: A day. ,n'j 8; COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: He is only dealing with I d n; 9 the questien of legal sufficiency. z Oy 10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: If he reaches the conclusion z = i j 11 that it is insufficient legally -- Y 12 CHAIRMAN HENDR_'I: Then we do not have to solve the = l 5 13 '. policy question. = i m i 5 14 ! COMMISSIONER AEEARNE: I give some weight Oc w s r
i. 5 General Counsel's legal advice.
a 1 l l j 16 ! MR. BICKWIT: It is one factor to add into the mix. A 1
b.. 17 MR. DIRCKS:
The Gossick meno was never anncunced i a = i 6 i = 18 l as a policy statement or anything else. It was sent to various c 8 1 19 !, office directors. g \\ n 1 20! COMMISSIONER AEEARNE: The point is if everybody i 21 in our cases expects a rule will not come out until they I i 12 ' have something in the mail to comment.on. i 23 c
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~e'n _=. "a.a ..r h _R O T 0.' F " c.77 75IS ".s 7 v na m 24 ', did send out 0718 teans we will not have-to go cut for any 25 ; sort of extended comment. period. These people do need to i 2
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= ss l 1! case it is not statesmanship or sabotage, but I wculd not I 2 vcte for most of the provisions of the rule any way and 3, therefore, if the propositicn before us at the tenent is I 4' do we favor scing out with the rule tocay, my vote is no. s 5 As I 1cok at the mathematics, it seens to me that nN i 6l you do not have a maj ority for going out today and you ~ n E 7 are well advised to go for further concent. .n g 8, If I favored the rule, I would still favor going i 0 I n 9; for the additional round of comment just to serve the purpcses z* 1
y 10 l cf what I gather was an EDO memcrandum.
I do not think that z i = a 11 s 1. s-2,, J..o,u ad. 4 d y 12 i The only ot.er point that I would raise it a 5 i is coin-to cause some problers as E. 13 l -cursory round of comment e = i = g 14 j well. That is, you send this document to some people who were .z r 15, planning to make an extensive presentation on a technical w i z j 16 f issue and tell them they have 15 or 20 days to cctment en it, x I i d 17 ! there fore, in effect their only chance to make the z z i 6
e 18 i presentation is going to be to make it in that 15 or 20
=ws 19, day co==ent period. Up to now they have been working on a an 20 l schedule that ecntemplates presentih.g that con =ent in a i 1 21 ; proceeding. I 22 I I guess they would have to pull together a fairly 23 ' fast su==ary and present it that way. 24 ! CCMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I would propose going i. 25 .with the kind of concent period we talked about yesterday. a
i 1: I i 1., ru.V_ =.Ma* N.=._= ".D R~__= - .we..s" e_mys. a o I l 2l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: As Peter points out, there \\ 3 a.- a_ a c n a. a s.e e.< n. u,,. _< a_ s .4< ~. h < ~.. - m 4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: If somebody thinks he has an i s .5 i absolutely splendid case that he can make, he =ust have scme n i n 3 6 idea what it is and he can write us and say, I would like same i N '1 E 7 i more time in o~ der to make a case along the following lines -n 5 8 and I think I can make that. N d i d 9' -..._a ' o " _..~, CO V_M.'_ S c~ 7 01'.n~ G 7 _7 7C 7. 7.. 7_.". k.. e "a a ' _a u z.- I. t h. 10'I ha"a ." o " _ n c _ u d 4.n. ~. h. a. ..._a n u # a a. " " *. e~ ' _+ a. a. r.s e e '.. ". a_ .""_i=_ 3 e z i
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11 and as I said earlier, going out for a brief ccnnent does give 3 y 12 an opportunity to OPS to lay out a more elaborate technical = s 13 i case fo" including it. = w i g 14 i CHAIRMA:i HENDRIE: If we we=e to go out fo" a 20 l -= 2 15 day comment pe"iod, I would want to see the "ule as written x= g 16 with the ML included and then in the "equest fo" co==ents, I A l d 17 think we ought to note specifically that we would be zx 18l inte"ested in people's connents on the inclusion of the I r i g 19 l =anufactu"ing license in this group. 20 !, COiT_ _~e e 'ONT_R ~ G'L"_.ISKY..- v_ a_ s. ~ I I r l 21 CU..A _7 "..v. A.'i ur"DP._r - ~. ~oa v,, a_ _a " s o ...e . "..a. *. ".a. a I { e -e a I f 22 i ce n_c_e _u. 2 _4 m n _4 avou. as.co _,, c w s, vv* *. _'. e~v o "_"v '_ _* s ".. ".. e "". '_ a_ w s e - s n s 23 i as _s mme_.<a a_,y, ~. y. e.- a _s ..o. a .._ar o,. s.. _r. . s v ..s. v. 1 l 24 ; Vic and vote to go out for a short comment period under the I 25 conditions as I have prescribed them, then I would read the I + 1 .4 l.
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..w.c-., _ o.g- _ o.c. -wo uae. v- . w..a. a L, _, a.., a. 2.,.a. x u r 15 l With these chan6es plus the 20C changes, we new xx 16 v.s _2.a. no .. -. e. - n,. - y o s a.a ,,1, a. w..a v 2_yp,4ae . o. w.a.
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_*..o . - r e... . a m i c e~ =. c me ue __s 1 e 19 l speed. m= 20 l .ha. c o ~_ ~.._a n.,. s- .s .n ~*. u.. a. --- 0sas p.-3 v. . es 21; rule and better outline a little history, we sent out the i ." v.- a O.u' a. c-w e - ".. a. a. d. e - a _'..= ~ _* -. a. S. i ^. *. a. 22 0,,_a. and r j.. u 3 s y i I i n. .u.a. c- - ~ ~ _< s.> e e..ee a., a-.'.. a- .A a e _a _,u, a. . o a ~ 1 ~.,- 23 a o u, n ea_a..ca. 24 i ceocle one more.look at the rule as it is developed. We t , a a l 25 . y o L,., a_ wee ya-.a.n.,,a-,.,.._...a..a.s.a.s.. _n n.n..._.a.... ana..sa- ~... I 4 i
39 1 the manufacturing license is appropriately included in this i 2 rule. 3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: On the manufacturing license, I 4 my only point of difference is on the requirements on 5 containment strength. .I realize that is a pretty far e 3 9 3 6 reaching and cifficult position., I did want to make clear e R R 7 that it is limited to that aspect. 7, j 8 MR. PURPLE: The deficiency in following the d d 9 Gossick memorandum was in not sending it to specific people i 10 on the list. Are we talking about a general Federal Register z-5 11 Notice for everyone to comment on this rule or send it to <3 d 12 the people by letter -- z= d 13 : CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: If you are going for comment, I = i r think you should go with the Federal Register and you haa d 14 l I t i 15 better send it to the service list. az j 16, MR. BICKWIT: There is no need to; it is your f, e p 17 l preference. wz 5 18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I am assuming we in fact v. auld = 19 l be legally justified and could support our decision in court n 20 if. challenged if we went ahead fina'l today. That is, there 21 is this residual thing you are going to think about, whether 22 we have created an obligation on our part by our practice. 23 I am ready to assume that comes out that it does i 24 not create an obligation for the purnoses of this discussion. i i 25 I do not think Vic is prepared to say it is legal. Is it fair i I J
l l 20 l I il and reasonable? It is on the latter basis that the proposal 2 has been made to circulate it again. 3 Having decided ,o circulate, I do not see any point i 4l in being wishy washy about it. I 5h MR. BICKWIT: I do not see any c.oint in it either. e, i nn j 6l 1 am just saying whatever one's view of the law is, one -a 7' need not put this in the Federal Register at this time. N j 8; CAAIRMAN HENDRIE: I think if we are going to d 9 call it a second comment period on the proposed rule, let's z. O i g 10 l put it in the Federal Register as well as sending it tc the z 1 = 1 11 service list. <k j 12 { I think that is a useful conner *ary with regard =. U 13 to the discussion on the manufacturing license, the point =_ E 14 l that we would be interested in comments about the inclusion I E 15 of the manufacturing license in this categcry, in this rule, w= B-16 i with the near term C?s and coint out there has been some i d 17 l discussion as to whether the containment requirements or w = 18 i manufacturing license units which presumably would be future E I 19 i orders of utilities might not be better specified to be x i 5 20 large_ dry centainments rather than ice condensor containments. 1 21 l Would that be a fair reflection? That carries the 22 j sense that.it is not the whole proposition; it is not the 23 shape of the barge, the fact that it floats. It isaquestion 24l of-the containment capabilities. t 25 h f v
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9' _e. ~ -u i z .H. 10 <. "..' a. w..".a..."._* a-."c-..h e.- ^ p y v.. u.n _' s~. - c a... =_.. ^ n. ". a. .- ".' a. ~ _z. a a_ a a a.n. _ _m..,. _.,.a_ s u /a_ _, v p a s- _< s.-. .-a_ n n.a -a a,.. a a..- aa n n e 11 a 1 B i " a_ _*. 3.-.cka.". .= ."..a_ d ' =_ c. a. *_ ^ n e'.' ."..a. 12 ' "..- cadu-a.s Ac. a".d _a z e: three votes in favor 13 Consission -- because I could net e = w2 v 3 -.. " n.. '_ e s '.. ^^_.a"... E 14 ; ~ o _'.. e-f.*.". a ' '. '. T o, o o a '_ ' ^e w '"....k.a. - ~ ^" -s e s. 6 N ) _7 15, "]' ' 7. a "a. s e_ d a a- _' a. s. i y. E 2 )
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I i -c 1; CHAIRMAN HE'IDRIE: The Chairman should have two i i 2 votes. ( T P 'U O.'.?.."'.c.3.. 3 att 4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: That is fine with me. 1 e. 5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: One where he gets to vote for .en 8 6l himself as a Commissioner and the other as the Chair in the e i -.n R 7, interest of expedition. i, n I What about the second paragraph on page two? 3 8, n d i 9 i C 0 'n's.- ~ =0.'.= =. .S. u..= r". * ". = ~ ~...c~- *~ **. o...=. 's " b. '..a. i z 5 10 < CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: 3at would go in the z. 5 11 supplenentary information. <m d 12 < MR. PURFLE: Yes. z .= s 13 ' CHAIR'4A'i HENDRIE: Are there any questions? 'E 14 ! CCMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I think Vic pointed out M t 's 2 15 one of the reasons he was interested in going for the comment a= 16 l period was to give OPS a chance to come in to talk about it. R A p -17 ) COMMISSIONER GILINSEY: The opportunity to comment, z z 4 5 18 l I do not know about. coming in to talk to 1.s. = H I [ 19 ! COMMISSIONER AREARNE: I am sorry, I misunderstood. i .= =. I 20 1 I thought you had earlier pointed out they had requested the 21 l opportunity to come in and talk to us and you had said that l 22 was one 'of the reasons you were interested in going out for 23 further conment. J 5*n'. V'a w aa~ - h. *.. ' '.". g. o' i og.g r.a a.~or u.~r."'D:~T
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l 4a 1 1l Federal Register to find out how it came out, i j 2i ~his portion of this morning's proceeding is 3 terminated. 4, (Whereupon, at 11: 26 a.m., the Commi;sion adj ourned l l 1 5i on this portion of the meeting and proceeded to other = 9 N 6} business.) O n R. 7 %e I N 8; d = 9i i af .i ob 10 i f I = E 11 'i <k i d 12 z= l d. 13 I .= x= 14 - w s k 2 15 w= r l 16 - l 3 ? A i i j d 17 w= 5 18 ; = s I I 19 I X 4 M 20 l t l 21-t 22 l i 23 ' l l 24 ' i 25, l l i ALDERSON. REPORTING CCMPANY, INC.
NUCLEAR REGULATORY CO.W4ISSION This is 50 certify tha the attachec ;r eecings befers the fluclear Regulator Commission in the matter Of: Discussion of SECY-81-20/20A/203 - Polic yon Proceeding with Pendin Date of groceeding: Construction Permit and Manufacturing License Appli 3/12/81 Decket !!u= b er : ? lace of ?roceeding: Room 1130, 1717 H St..fl.W., Washington, D.C. were held as herein appears, and that this is the Or iginal transcrip thereof for the file.cf the Cc=missi0n. Marilynn M. f!ations Cfficial Reporter (Typed) I Of ficial Reporter (5ignature) \\ I l l r l l l l l l -= .}}

ML19350B576

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