ML19322D906
| ML19322D906 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 03/05/1980 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML19322D907 | List: |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8003100176 | |
| Download: ML19322D906 (65) | |
Text
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l U N IT E D STATES N UCLE AR REG UL ATORY COMMISSION i
l In the matter of:
BRIEFING ON ASSESSMENT OF CLEAN-UP AT THRE.E MILE ISLAND
(
Placo:
WASHINGTON, D.C.
Date:
March 5, 1980 Page5: 1 through 65 INTERNATIONAL VERBATIM R==ORTERS, INC.
499 SOUTH CAPITOL STREET, t.W. SUITE 107
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WASHINGTON. D. C. 20002 202 484-3550 8003100l7b
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA e
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NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION i
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1 In the Matter of:
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BRIEFING ON ASSESSMENT OF CLEAN-UP l
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6 @j; AT THREE MILE ISLAND mi t
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Eleventh Floor l1 O!
9 1717 H Street, N. W.,
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dl Wednesday, March 5, 1980 11 $i Wj The Commission met, pursuant to notice, commencing i
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at 10:05 a.m., the Honorable John F. Ahearne (Chairman of f
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the Commission), p.re siding.
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PRESENT:
Chairman Ahearne t'e j
Commissioner Gilinsky Id i
Commissioner Hendrie i
l Commissioner Bradford.
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l Leonard Bickwit, Esq.,
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General Counsel 19 i
ALSO PRESENT: W. DIRCKS 20 N.
HALLER I
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AND OTHERS.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Good morning.
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l We meet today to hear from Norm Haller who headed I
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i up a review team that went up to Three Mile Island to look j
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at Three Mila Island II to address the situation with respect i
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regard to the personnel in the area, both the NRC and the j
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licensee and to tell us what kind of problems exist; what kind l
3 of problems might be forecast for the future and to make S
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recommendations as to what we in NRC ought to be doing.
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i The team was sent up, given guidance by the Acting 11 i
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Executive Director for Operations,.Mr. Dirks and so, Will, l
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would you like to lead off?
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MR. DIRCKS:-
Just a few words.
We acted after the I
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I Commission said take another look at how things are going i
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up there and at the pace that things are moving.
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In reading the report, in talking with the team, I i
I guess my reaction was that what has happened in that as other t
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l events have occurred, the attention that I think the plant 19
!, deserves has been somewhat diminished.
I 20 What the feeling is that it is difficult to make any i
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forward motion because the people feel the lack of operating i
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criteria under which people can take actions and make
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decisions.
t I think as we will find out in the report that Norm talks about today, the most urgent thing is to play in
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l out a set of criteria by which people at various levels can I
take action and make decisions.
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If we cannot get that straightened out we will find j
1 ourselves hampered doing studies as to what should be done.
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The plan is there.
There is no immediate hazard and safety 3
problem.
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What we want to do is to take actions now so that I
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we can start things moving.
Norm, I think, has done an excellent job.
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j CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
With your able assistance.
I MR. DIRCKS:
He is going to mention the team.
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think the most noteable thing is we had a due date of l
u February 29 and if you will note, the report was done on 13 j
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February 29; an ac'hievement in and of itself.
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I With that, I think Norm -- why dont you pick up and i
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start moving.
As you note on the covering memorandum, it is 16 i
suggested that we mo.ve ahead with certain things immediately.
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Depending on the outcome of this meeting, I will sign the l
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i necessary documents.
l 19 l
MR. HALLER:
Let me start by introducing the other
- o members of the Team just for a moment.
We did, indeed, have
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11 a number of distinguished members on the Team and let me i
ask them just to raise their hand'or something.
i First is Dr. Palladino, Dean of the College of 2
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Engineering, Pennsylvania State University; Robert Bernero,
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Director, Probabilistic Analysis Staff, NRC;'Karl V.
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Director, NRC Region IV, Office of Inspection and Enforcement, I
r Dallas, Texas; Daniel R. Muller, Director, Division of Site 1
2 Safety & Environmental Analysis, NRC; Robert E.
- Browning, l
i Depbty Director, Division of Waste Management, NRC; Robert A.
l 1
7 i
I Purple, Assistant Director, Radiological Health & Safeguards l
l 5
l Standards, NRC; Bernard J.
Snyder, Assistant Director for i
7 Policy Review, Office of Policy Evaluation, NRC; Steven C.
3 Goldberg,' Office of the Executive Legal Director, NRC; and 9
Sheldon L. Trubatch, Office of the General Counsel, NRC.
l 10 That was the Team and we did, indeed, work quito l
l hard to meet the deadline and I will make one comment -- that i
{ the briefing this morning is based on our report which actually j
- 7 la has a date of February 28, although I must admit we did some final proofing on'the morning of the 29th to get it ready.
With that, let me turn to this second viewgraph l'
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which gives an outline for the presentation today.
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(Showing of viewgraph) l 18 I wdnt to discuss very briefly with you the purpose l
l of the Special Task Force; also the approach that-we followed in carrying out our activities.
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I have some slides that' hit the key findings and the f
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i key recommendations that we made and finally, we intend to
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discuss where we are going from h'ere.
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l All right, let us go to the third slide, please.
4 Just to reiterate again, the purpose of the Special
- .5 Task Force -- this was based on Mr. Dircks' memorandum and m % v==
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also the meeting on the morning of February 19 when we were I
! gathered together at 8:30 and told that we had this assignment.
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The basic mission is sL7wn on this slide.
It was A
to evaluate the cleanup operations, including the way in j
' which things are being carried out, or the approach as well l
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as the pace of activities.
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We were asked to assess future plans.
We were 1
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3 asked to examine various problems and make recommendations 9
regarding those problems and finally, identify legal require-l i
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ments and appropriate response to those requirements.
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We were asked to cover both licensee as well as 1;
NRC activities and we were to report to the Commission within 6-l i
ten days.
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5 14 Next sli'de, please.
i The approach is shown here.
The first and most i.!
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j important thing we did was, of course, to organize our work l.
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l to meet the time constraints that we were under.
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Barbara Narrow (phonetic spelling) was able to j
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get soms of the technical analysis started I believe the 19 l day after we first met, around February 20.
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Over the next several days we met with NRC, DOE, l
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l the licensee, and State and local officials.
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We met with the staff members of the Council on l
Environmental Quality on February 25 and the last few days
- s we used to prepare our report, focusing very heavily on the findings and recommendations of that report.
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i Next slide, please.
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Now, this beings to get into the actual meat of i
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the report.
I want to start with this next series of il four slides by indicating that the main thrust of our I
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findings and recommendations I feel ip captured in the l
6 covering memorandum which I forwarded to Mr. Dircks on the i
7 28th.
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3 The key message there, of course, is that prompt i
9 action is needed by NRC to restore forward motion to the Three Mile Island cleanup process.
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We note in that memorandum some of the things that g
j we observed during our discussions with various people.
At
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i this point, let me start to discuss some of the key findings.
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However, before I'do that I want to caution you that the 14 l
words which are contained on this viewgraph are simply l
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short, key word extractions from the more detailed findings l
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l and recommendations in the report and the purpose of these t
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is simply to provide a short graphics so that I could get it j
f out on a reasonable number of pages for this presentation, but 19
,i by no means should these words be intended to supplant the more detailed and rigorous thought that went into the 21 actual wordings and findings of those recommendations.
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So, those are the real guides.
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I am sure.
21 MR. HALLER:
Good.
Starting, then, with the first bullet here I will in
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work my way through these.
One of the findings was that I
zero releases at this facility are impossible.
However, the n
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policy issued by the Commission in November is being I
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interpreted by the staff and by others as meaning, in effect, I
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zero releases.
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6 Well, with this kind of prohibition the cleanup I
7 simply is hampered and cannot move forward as it ought to move j
t forward.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
It is difficult even to make e
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plans where you can --
1 MR. DIRCKS:
Survey work, if you dont have a plan you are going around in a vicious circle.
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MR. HALLER:
The staff authority is unclear.
There j
la, 14 is uncertainty as 'to what decisions they can and cannot l
! make and because of this uncertainty, I believe they tend l
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! to want to send all the decisions to the Commission.
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t CHAIRMAN AHEAltNE:
Is the example that you cite 17 i
! in your report, is it facused also entirely upon decisions 18 i
which would lead to releases?
l 19 MR. HALLER:
That is correct.
20
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CRAIRMAN AHEARNE:
So, is this still focused on the l
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l zero release issue and the related problems, or when you l
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j say the staff authority is unclear, does it go beyond that, i
beyond the two issues that dont effect releases?
MR. HALLER:
I think the major focus of this is on J'
authority to make decisions that have to do with releases.
This in
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!l is not an attempt to say that the staff is totally impotent
- because they do on a continuing basis on-site procedurer, i
2 review procedures, but is primarily focused on this release ll ii aspect.
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COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
But, since the whole operation l
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has to get fission product containment I assume any forward I I 7
motion inevitably involves some steps that could involve some
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releases.
9 MR. HALLER:
That is correct.
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COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
So the staff feels all of f
j those have to come to the Commission because an atom might i
12 get out and decay in the great outside and I assume that means l
- 3 the staff is unable to provide any meaningful guidance to l
i l l Met Ed because the staff doesn't know where it comes out.
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MR. HALLER.
I.believe that is correct, yes, sir.
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COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
The staff finds itself caught l
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i with the Commission hav..ng left it high and dry.
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I trust we wi.'.1 be able to remedy that forthwith, la I
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j MR. HALLER:
The licensee cleanup approach is j
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j believed to be logical.
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l By that I mean the prop'er steps appear to be j
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i identified and so forth, but we caution that there are O
I many unknowns in this process.
I't is the type of thing that does not lend itself to detailed planning from step one 4
all the way through to the last step.
2 There are uncertainties at many stages of this
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l process and there are going to be needs'for data gathering i
as one goes through this process to find out what to do i
j at the next step and do you do this, or do you do that.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I am sorry, Norm.
Let me ask f
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There is a separate issue of what is required to be 6
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done in this normological process and what decisions have to g
be made.
9 A separate issue is if a situation were to arise i
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and it looked like an emergency were developing an action l
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would have to be taken to prevent significant hazard.
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l there lack of belief on the part of the staff that they l
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i would have the authority to take those kind of actions?
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In other words, time is running out.
There isn't la i
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i time to do much in the way of this elaborate decision of the i
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Team that you describe.
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Is there a feeling on the part of the staff, even
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in that case, they would not have the authority?
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MR. HALLER:
I did not sense such a feeling on the 19 j
parts of the interviews that we conducted.
I don't believe j
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we really focused heavily on that' aspect, but I certa:.nly l
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I have confidenci.
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COMe.;oSIONER HENDRIE:
But you would then be talking 7L i
about something where you figure you've got 12 minutes and
- 2 it is going to go and you have to decide to stop it one way or the other.
Anything over a few hours'and it can come back in
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I just wanted to make sure.
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MR. DIRCKS:
I think that is the key point -- how i
you define what is an emergency like the idea of preventative e
j l maintenance in some of the equipment in there is being I
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neglected.
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COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Without getting any 9
expertise and confidence, everything I had understood about g
j the state of that reactor now suggests we get the time I
l before in the chain of events that might lead to any releases.
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l COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
The point I make is it was L,
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a zero case.
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1 COMMISSIONER BRAUFORD:
I see.
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f COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I think, clearly, we are IJ i
going to have warning of times that allow communication back i
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here.
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i MR. HALLER:
The third bullet then again is li t
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to point out the fact that there are uncertainties and 19
,' unknowns at every stage of this process and it is the type 10 of thing one needs to do data gathering as one goes along Il i, and what to do next.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Recognizing as your report i
points out that much of the delay is really attributable to
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MR. HALLER:
I believe that is correct.
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I I think there is an instance where the staff would I
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1 like to have had information about the system for cleaning i
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3 up the water inside the containment sooner than they have it.
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3 I belie * there is also some concerns about the 7
I speed with which people are moving to do the solidification l
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of the resins.
g CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
That, I guess, relates to the 9
I point that you had made that not only is the sense that this 10 I
I is not the highest priority in the NRC but clearly, it is not j
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t the highest priority in the GPU system.
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COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Let me take you back to your 13 1
first finding for'a minute.
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You say the policy has been interpreted to zero 1.5 j
release, yet you say in the same document the releases have l
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i been 70-80 period a month right along.
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i MR. HALLER:
Right.
j la COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
How can any rational 19 l
personel thinking the policy of zero releases while we are 20 allowing releases of 70 or 80 a month?
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l MR. HALLER:
Well, without necessarily discussing 3
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how any rational person would feel I simply can point to the example of the permission to open the air lock in order to
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get access inside the air lock to make some measurements as an indication that at least there was uncertainty on the ice=== vome = w i e.
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that ultimately to the --
l CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Part of it is, Peter, there is j
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a question as to whether the policy is rational.
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e COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
That may be.
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What was troubling me was the lines saying policy i
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interpreted to zero releases.
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3 MR. HALLER:
I think there is also the issue of i
planned versus unplannea releases.
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COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I think, too, there are a class of releases that occur here -- (a) because they are l
not planned and simply occur and (b) occur in the course of j
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doing things like taking samples and doing such minimal out of
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containment maintenanco as one can do which are agreed upon 14 i
I and necessary ac. ons, 11 so you have a certain body of necessary t
maintenance and sampling operations together with a few i
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inevitable small leaks and those constitute the releases l
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! which have run on the order of well, what?
Is it 70, 60, 70, l
la 80?
Hours of criteria that the staff has to make per month,
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l trivial doses I must say for those who are apt to go into 20 j
panci at the mention of a Curie.
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f Now, you have a whole series of actions.
Can we get in next to the air lock and see what conditions are and
~.t get some readings?
24 Well, no.
Wait a minute!
Let's worry about that.
The first thing you know it is around for a Commission vote in
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and for Heaven's sake, that is what is killing each --
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COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:
Each of those other releases l
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i is, for all practical purposes, a planned-release; that is l
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anyone undertaking those actions know there will be slight 1
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releases associated with them and in some sense entering the
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air lock is not dissimilar.
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I There is a line between that and venting where you j
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l are letting stuff go into the air and the fact of the l
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purpose of what you are doing is to release it.
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But, I am not sure I see the line between say I
i entering the air lock which entails these other measures.
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COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
That is a thing you can or j
e cannot do next week.
On the question of sampling there is got E
to be a certain amount of -- minimum amount of sampling to 14 i
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make sure the primary system is still got the right things in 1,5 l
it and not the wrong things in it, and so on.
l COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
The question that is really
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zero release is - -
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l MR. DENTON:
Maybe I can help on this issue.
l 19 l
I think the report is an excellent characterization 20 of this situation.
I think people at the site have j
l done an excellent job in protecting the health and safety over the.
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past seven or eight months.
The activitity of water to the
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air has been minimal.
4 Going back to the Summer, I made a commitment to the State when I testified before one of our committees that we neve m v s m. = nu m w o u. i c.
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wouldn't vent the containment until we thoroughly examine 2
all the alternatives because there were such high anxiety f
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l calls.
We were in Court over any activity in water, and l
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Then the policy statement of the Commission came l
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out and I wanted -- I felt like we had an obligation to the i
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people out there to complete our assessment of alternatives to l
3 venting and to really rigorously have that examined before any l
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planned release.
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So, one reason I brought this to the Commission's i
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attention on the air lock was sort of a position they would do not harm.
I knew there were one or two Curies being j
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released per day from various samplings that had gone on since l
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14 day One.
That means there has been no action in this area, i
l per se.
There has been a lot of action.
I felt the licensee II 1
l was somewhat slow in getting us a report.
It didn't come ll 14
.i until November.
1 17 i
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i I insisted the staff take a hard look at alternatives l
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to venting; the possibility of accidental releases and I i
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i will be getting to the Commission in a few days the staffs' 20 l
assessment -- the alternatives to" venting and the route to i3 j
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be chosen.
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I notice the DOE has co'mpleted an assessment of
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l alternates and the State itself has in the report contained 1
by the Lieutenant Governor.
There is a confluence of views 15 that the alternatives to venting have major drawbacks in innv ei dBB 6 Cas'TER.."fBtEET, 3. e. SiftT '#
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terms of the time required to implement any of the practical I
alternatives to venting and have concluded also that venting can.
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be accomplished well within the Commission's regulations.
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So, it hasn't been inaction with regard to doing the j
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studies but with regard to venting the air lock, I felt l
like that would -- is getting close enough to venting that 6
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the Commission should be aware of it and I wanted the l
3 Commission's concurrence on that action.
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Let' me come back to my 9
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riginal question.
I i
j Have you been under the assumption you were operating l
at TMI on zero release in the past 11 months?
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.u MR. DENTON:
With regard to water, yes.
With regard 1
is to air, no.
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We have known since the accident there were the I
i small amounts of krypton being transferred over the secondary j
16
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path and sampling release.
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I think staff was fully aware that the plant was i
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releasing active krypton at one or two Curies per day, 19 essentially uncontrolable and the sampling was necessary 20 l
f to assure the understanding of wh'at was happening inside.
21 l
It was only opening the air lock and the next step 8
entrance to the air lock got clos'e enough to venting that I i
thought the Commission should be aware of it.
l1 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Let me at least make perhaps a comment.
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i The typical plant release, Peter, is about 1,000 2
Curies per month.
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This plant has been releasing 60, or 70, or 80 i
4 Curies amonth.
A couple of weeks ago there were two releases i
3 on the order of 3/10th's.
l 4
i MR. HALLER:
Point 3 and 3.
i CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
And what was the Commission's l
l 7
4 3
action?
We said the Director of I&E, the senior agency l
l 9
official up there 'because of the severity of the situation l
l 10 j
and now it is hard for me to look, as a bystander and say l
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that -- I am saying as a bystander that is what it looked l
like and I can well understand to many people the Commission's t
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l policy was zero release.
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la MR. DENT'ON:
There are people we know from the l
citizens in the area want to leave the area when there is 8-i I
any planned release.
Whatever you tell me about the dose i
14 i
i rate, let me know in advaace and I will take my family out of the area.
la i
l There is a lot of local pressure to not have any j
19 planned releases and so I think the Commission -- I think this
- o I
report has been useful.
It helps'to focus on the topics.
i i
- 1 l
You will have before you very shortly an assessment l
i of all the alternatives and the p'ros and cons of each.
With regard to the air lock we have prepared a i
~
24 press release.
The date is the 10th.
It has been coordinated
~.1 with the State.
l icom m vsim.m. h i c.
l sm,m s.wmm truar. s, e. net tw
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17 l
t I
i i
I i
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
One of the main things that i
e seems to come through persistently in this report, Norm, I 6
I I
{
gather is the necessity to not only for us to move ahead, f
i l
but to try to be clear what we are doing.
{
1 j
MR. HALLER:
Yes, be clear with the criteria that 6
are now allowed and be clear also in explaining to the local 1
i 7
l-People and officials just what is going on.
I i
i g
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
And not so much announcing this is I
what is going to happen, but to get more understanding; Y
6 l
l s
g j
further information.
I MR. HALLER:
That is correct.
i 11 1
l' COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I would like --
12 l
l 13
-l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
The reason I asked Victor l
I to go up there is'not because of the size of these releases, I
14 i
but because the vents connected with these releases made me 13 I
l wonder whether things were going right up there and it seems l
16 i
to me it was useful.to have him go up for that reason.
17 p
l I thought we made that clear at the time we sent la i
j him up and at the time we had a meeting on the subject.
f 19 CHAIRMAN'AHEARNE:
I think it was useful since it 20 t
led to this review and the review is going to be particularly
- 1 l
useful.
=
My point was a bystander watching what was happening O
L i
and reading the vents an depicted, what came through was small 4
24 releases, major action, except the small part didn't come
~
through.
It was release -- major action.
im = v.-m. % <.
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18
.l i
il I
I didn' t find myself surprised at the picture that
(~
I f
the Task Force came in with', that the impression was tha I
i policy was focused upon sensing no release.
MR. DENTON:
If I could add a few more words along j
(
A i
from that maybe the people from the site would like to e
)
comment after the presentation.
6 There has been a no release policy with regard to 7
8 i
water.
Some of that policy ca'rries over to air.
i 3
With regard to air, I felt like the activity that
?
7 l
s j
j would come out through opening the air lock or opening the 10 i
i containment or venting the air lock we did have a special 11 I
I obligation to assess alternatives.before we took those actions 12 l
l and that is consistent with the Commission's policy.
I,d CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
But the amount you expect to 14 i
l come out of the air lock is?
IJ i,
l MR. DENTON:
Diminimus.
14 l
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
What other reason for coming 17 i
to the Commission would there be other than to implement this la i
perceived policy of holding down to almost ne) releases?
19 l
MR. DENTON:
To infcrm the Commission, number one,
/
i
- 0 that it was going on and to characterize the release.
21 i
l That is really why I came to you so you were 22 aware.
i
~~
l CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I don't fault you for coming l
~
4 because I think were I in your position I might have done
~
exactly the same thing.
I want the posit. ion clarified.
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.lt 19 5
I MR. DIRCKS:
I think that points up the whole I
idea of criteria.
These are minimal releases that are l
coming out, but the people on the' site dont have any idea t
l whether they can operate within 85 or 100, or 115.
l 1
i I
J CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Nor do the people in surrounding I
i areas.
6 i
7 i
MR. DIRCKS:
Everyone is under the impression the I
8 i
I thing is sitting there and if you have to do something --
g CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
When I -- I seem to recall when g,
Vic came back, one of the things you were surprised at the 10 policy was not to have any releare.
MR. STELLO:
I think that is fair.
i l
One of the things I was very surprised at when I I
I la explained why I was there to the news media, although I l
l I
wasn't there to look into the 3/10th's Curie release in i.!
I i
terms of any health effects, their questions to me made it 16 F
I clear and several of them, in fact, said we were under the 17 l
impression there were no releases from this plant.
That la is clear to me that that is the view that they have.
19 f
i I also have the feeling that the staff up there when 2c i
I talked to them had the sensitivity that any release from j
l that plant, 11 that "was somehow controllable" ought not to i
i i
quite go on; that there is a real' perception that on Monday l
when they had the 3/10th's Curie release when the engineer l
t
- 4 looked at the charts on Tuesday and it was gee, you know, a 15 lot higher than that, although no safety problem, his reaction
-= v m i epEP#peCMNTM.
t w. t%?* 'gt
20 l
+
t i
8 I
j was well, what should I do, you know.
It is more.
I've I
l got this problem that, you know, maybe that is a real, major t
concern.
I i
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes.
l 1
(
t i
MR. STELLO:
That is the kind of attitude I perceive l
f I
i i
s there.
l i
i I guess some site people are here.
Maybe they l
7 i
3 ought to speak to that, but the concept of the zero release I think that' attitude is certainly clear.in the media, on e
9 t
10 i
behalf of the public and there is a real gap missing there I
r j
which I think hurts us in doing the job in terms of our i
credibility of making clear what we are doing as well as l
L.
l i
having the staff up there understand where should their l
i L-threshold be for construction.
l I
MR. HALLER:
I stand by the wording of that j
I finding, at any rate.
i 16 I
Let me move to the last bullet on this page.
We 17 l
f believe thare is a need to use the flexibility that has been 18 l
built into the policy statement of the Commission in order 19 i
the activities associated with such things as data gathering
- o and necessary maintenance of the' plant in a safe and stable 21 i
j condition can proceed and that this flexibility would, O
i of course, lead to criteria for these interim operations prior l
to ccmpletion of the programmatic and environmental impact 04 statement.
l!
The next slide, please.
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% v
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l
. - :. -. = -
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p 21 l
l To continue with'the key findings, I have grouped i
I lanumberoftheminthefollowingways:
4
}
First, under some of the major technical problems I
l 4
1 I have listed there the possibilitity that failures could l
i 3
l lead to items such as greater difficulties in the cleanup l
/
6 exposures, primarily of people on the site; the workers that I
l are working with this plant and also could lead to off-site 7
I I
I releases. -
l 3
1
- 9 Although we did not identify any cause for alarm l
1 i
10 with respect to the off-site releases, our calculations
,{
did not show that they would be a serious threat to the health
{
and safety to the off-site public..
l t
1 There is at least the possibility that any of i
i' la i,
these types of activities that would be occurring on-site and I
even resulting in releases, hawever small off-site, would I
IJ ll result in public concern.
l 14 i
t By the way, I mean to include under failures not 0~
l only equipment failures but also the possibility of human la l
error or human failures which can never be discounted.
l 19 In addition, we found that the delays in conducting 20 the clean up activity obviously increases the risk to the
- 1 I
j l
workers and finally, of course, there is this whole lack of O
i interim technical criteria that people can use to judge where C
I there is an envelope that releases can take place; that is that l t
- s is authoirized by or one concerned.
-y Other problems that we found were perceived low i=% v
- m. m,ww i
e me e CAMT4A fr3tt:7. 3, s. sufft !W
- z. _ m m L
- m g 22 I
priority of the activities having to do with the clean up.
I The insufficient resources both on the site as well i,
I j
as resources needed to support t'ae preparation of the ll 1
1 programmatic environmental impact statement.
l i
- i' j
l CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Your report says they run out j
- I 3
l of funding in April.
! l l
l 7
)
MR. HALLER:
That is correct.
! )
l s'
' CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Bill, you have to find funding.
3 MR. DIRCKS:
In the covering note I indicated we 7
i i
10 j
will have to give them some resources.
I I
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes, I thought your note was l,a l
focused more upon the people.
MR. DIRCKS:
The people and the resources.
13 i
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
What is it, $500,000 they need?
14 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes.
The staff told us that there 13 I
was a need for approximately one-half million dollars in order 14 i
to try to meet the schedule. hat they are now on.
l CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
That schedule is to get the draft i
18 i
I i
by?
l I
19 l
l MR. DIRCKS:
The draft done by the middle of the l'
20 year and the final done by the end of the year.
1 Il l
Now, we have alsc, though, urged that this schedule O
i be examined to see if it can be accelerated and this is one I
of the things that the EDO put in his letter that he wants L
to check to see if the schedule can't be accelerated some-
~
what.
(MTWinnah Venefies h Int,
+
me ma,The CAdNTE N. & e. mJrFE YEF m m
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23 l
i I am asking them in NOR to give me some analysis 2
! what their resource needs are under the current schedule and any other impacts that might happen.
I I
f CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I think you ought to be trying l
A 3
l to find where that $500,000 ought to come.
If necessary, 3
go through reprogramming to do it.
! 1 I
i 7
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Who is doing it?
i
' W1. DIRCKS:
Right now, at the site?
l g
MR. HALLER:
You mean who is preparing the EIS?
s l
i It is being managed by a person in the NOR staff but the 10 I
primary technical work is being done by a team of persons 11 i
i at Argonne.
j
,,a j
is I believe it is in the order of 50 or so people i
1 i.
la that are working on this thing.
i I
MR. DENTON:
We do intend to fully fund whatever i
IJ i
j it takes to get the job done.
j 14 i
We are still looking at some of the final scope l
17 i
i of the job and that is why we haven't allo ~cated the full l
18 1
i l
request of the lab.
l 19 I think their original request was $2.5 million l
20 to prepare the statement.
We are funding it incrementally l
21 I
l until we read the full scope of the statement.
C i
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
But you will continue funding?
~J~
MR. DENTON:
Yes, sir.
t
- 4 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
It is inconceivable to me
~
that the laws of the United States require us to sit on our iwas = vaim.n e i c.
)
as imufte aperci. smar. E e. mart ter
.- u -
~~
fl
,m.wa,.
i 24 l
I I
dubbs and fiddle for a year and a half waiting for that f
containment to leak or the primary system to finally funk out i
l and fail to cool the core or the boron concentration to go.
(
Don't we get reprintacality?
f 1
3 There has to be a way to get in there and see that ii 6
l that system is going to run adequately for the balance of
[,
7 the time that is necessary to clean up all the water, and so I
g on.
9 You can't sit around here and calculate environmental 10 l
impact while we get ready to have a disaster in central I
i Pennsylvania.
l I appeal to staff, applicant, and God for Christ's j
.u i
l i sake to tell me how to get out of this idiocy.
l l,a i
Are we, in fact, compelled inextricably under the u
I laws of the United States to sit here and wait for trouble?
i.!
j l
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
No, we are not.
Both we have 16 i
said and CEQ has pointed out if we see a clear and present l
i j
danger, then we go ahead and take action.
I 18 I don't get the sense from what Norm's review has 19 i said and I have gone through it, that there is that clear and 20 l
present danger.
- i i
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
This is the 1st of March i and we are talking about the end of the year, that a final f EIS can be out and people begin to complaint about it and A
we will have to fight court actions.
It is not today, you know, on the 5th of March.
It i.msm m vwou m.mumer==.i c.
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as umsm saama, sraer.". A e. set 'er
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. - - = - -
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25
.I il I
i l is going to be damn near a year from now and we are still i l
,)
2 i1 going to be sitting here starring at that containment.
p r 1 Now many neutron monitors do we still have on that 6
1 system?
l<
J MR. HALLER:
One.
,I, i
I ii 6
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Anybody want to guarantee i
f 7
I me it will still be there a year from now?
l l
3
'Anybody want to guarantee we will know for sure i!
9 what the vessel boron concentration is based on the low
.I
~
i
~
i 10 flows and taking the customary boron sampling outside the i
building?
i
{
Anybody going to be able to guarantee me we won't
[
- ^
i I
have recriticality from low boron run in the next year?
How about breakdown of the system inside?
I la i
l CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Maybe it will change your f
IJ l
i look.
l Id i
MR. HANRAHAN:
I don't think, Mr. Chairman, you i
17 i
will be ever able to show clear and present danger.
j la i
Everyone sitting in the room shar6s Mr. Hendric's 19 i
feeling that there is a gut feeling waiting for something 20 to happen.
i 21 l
Prudence says you do something about that.
We are 2:
I i
fiddling with an auxilliary build'ing for a year when the f
real problem is inside the containment building and it
~
strikes me as ludicrous.
= = v mm. % i=.
j me um,m c.wcro. rmar. s. e. set tw
.- u -
u =sw 26 l
I CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Are you saying we shouldn't be l working on the Aux building?
f i
i MR. HANRAHAN:
No.
We should have that in hand i
r and getting on to the real problem instead of dealing uith l
1 l
i i
l things like this krypton and so forth and 300th's of a l
i i
i Curie.
i 7
I COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Having understood it a good l
1 i
I g
bit better, I really feel driven up the wall by it.
9 MR. BICKWIT:
Our policy statement commits us to 10 j
undertake a programmatic impact statement, but it says l
development of the statement will not preclude prompt I
l Commission action, when needed.
I is i
i It does not refer to clear and present danger; does l
la.
l not refer to emergencies.
la l
I l
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I think we are all getting i
i-j I
j very interested in the issue; reinterested; more interested, I
but perhaps Norm could complete his report and then we can i
l get back to the discussion on that.
la i
l MR. HALLER:
Continuing with the bullet called "other 19 problems" we could not fail to recognize the licensee's 20 i
financial situation and the possibility that he may go bankrupt Il I
i and may not be able to complete this task.
i There are concerns abouIt waste management at the facility.
There is a great deal of public anxiety and the
- 4 NRC and the licensee we found lacked credibility at this site.
m% vAm w,rees. i.<
l
,n. - marr.s...== =
_. - > =
f 27
!l
\\
i I
e Finally, there is the question of the end use of the programmatic and EIS and whether that is clearly defined to the I
I I(
j staff.
Now, there are other factors that also we thought j<
1 i
3 l
were quite relevant.
One, of course, is the recent report l
8 1
3 6
of the Governor's Commission in the State of Pennsylvania.
i 7
l I believe you are familiar with that.
Yes -- that g
is the report.
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Do they have your report, by the 9
j 10 l
way?
I f
MR. HALLER:
I have mailed copies of my report to I
Lt. Governor Scranton's office and Mr. Jurisky (phonetic l
i spelling) who is in the staff in the state government and I i
I did discuss the findings with them also on the pone.
I la i
i I
MR. DIRCKS:
And you did sit doun and meet with t
1.5 i
I Mayor Reed?
I 16 i
i i
MR. HALLER:
We did meet with Mayor Reed personally 17 at the time I was up there.
i la i
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
It might be useful to sit
{
19 l
down with the State of Pennsylvania officials and go through 20 l
the report with them, but please go on.
Il l
l MR. HALLER:
I might also elaborate a little bit on e
i the State of Pennsylvania's views.
2:
I was informed yesterday by Mr. Jurisky that there I
- 2 has been a resolution introduced in the Pennsylvania House 15 of Representatives.
I am told it is Resolution number 185 Inrum em voiman= Au=werwum. le
- f me e CAMMA fTiutC/.1 e. 2"rPE!W j
=ammeeru :.,..1.c2
ace 3 Nc.
j i
28 t
which, according to a draft that I have, and I do not have l
the final wording, but if this draft properly portrays what was
{
stated in that resolution, it requests tne President and the l
l 4
/
1 U.
S. Congress to urge the NRC to rapidly formulate criteria J
to be used as guidelines for decontaminating TMI-II.
4 That is just one of several parts of that resolution.
i 7
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Do you know if the Governor l
I g
intends to put out any kind of a decision based upon this document?
9 l
- g MR. HALLER
I do not know.
I have spoken with l
persons in the Lt. Governor's office and I understand he does I
1 l
have the report, but he is prosently on a trip and they l
4 e
i expect that when he comes back he will decide what to do I
I I
la about _he recommen'dations in the report and make whatever i
l decisions are needed.
IJ l
?
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
At least, as I read it and as l
16 i
- a the report to him, they are recommendations but probably 17 i
at the moment I would be quite right in saying this is the 18
+
l position of the State of Pennsylvania.
19 l
i MR. HALLER:
I think that is correct.
20 i
i The Governor'is taking "that under advisement.
- Also, Il I
of course, we did have the meeting with CEO.
There is
{
j discussion in our report about th'e upshot of that meeting.
l Those views we feel are quite relevant and also as Harold
- 4 Denton mentioned earlier today, t here has been a letter from e
2 Mr. Cunningham in the Department of Energy to Mr. Dircks ace % v==
- m. mame i c.
j x_
= =.
oce3 sc.
F i
29 l
1 I
e i
j which also bears on the issue of making a prompt decision l
I i
on the matter of venting and also gives some technical to i
{ DOE with regard to this and also makes an offe; to assist in 1
the monitoring activities up there should the need arise i
I for that.
6 All right, please move to the next slide.
i I
7 Now, these two slides that follow will be 3
discussion of the key recommendations that we came up with.
I l
9 Again, I cattion you that these are my short key word e
i 10 j
summaries of these recommendations and I would urge that the
{
l i
,' specific wording be referred to for the more definitive statement 1
l of what it is that we said.
l
.i.
i i
l i
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
When you get to the environ-1 mental statement item, could you make clear what that is 14 i
l I
holding up?
IJ
{
MR. HALLER:
Yes, I will certainly try.
I I
14 i
i 17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
The third bullet -- in other l
words, why it is important.
la l
I just want to understand precisely what it is l
19
~
holding up.
20 I
MR. HALLER:
The first bullet is really a call for Il
! Commission commitment to proceed with this clean up as
~.
i expeditiously as possible.
I m.
e I
We feel this commitment then would provide the
- s general umbrella under which adequate priorities can be provided to the various activities that need to be undertaken; is=vei 1
ass M GW8TER. M9lMT. & e. ENTE *WF
- -z=
l 30 s
i that proper amounts of resources can be applied; that the fstaffworkhastheprioritytoproceedinatimelyfashion I
I and, of course, that commitment would also be a commitment j
1 on the part of the Commission to make prompt decisions.
l 1
i CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
By " expeditiously" you also put f
3 i
1 i
s l
in all the rest of the words that would go with it -- keeping I.
I 7
I adequate protection of the public health and safety.
I f
I 3
101. RALLER:
That is correct.
9 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
That is not in the recommend-i I
'O l
ation.
I CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Not as fast as possible, as fast as is reasonable.
MR. DIRCKS:
I don' t think we would be sit. ting I
la.
i here without due regard for public health and safety.
I la i
l I
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
What do you say -
"as f
6.
j l
expeditiously as possible, consistent with ***"?
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I understand the recommend-U l
ation to be one aimed at safety and I understand you to l
18 i
l say the public health and safety.
19 l
s MR. DIRCKS:
We are saying doing it expeditiously l
20 as possible to protect the public*'s health and safety.
21 I
l l
We would have no other motiviation sitting over Jr I
i here.
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I understand you to be 3
~
i saying we will move faster in this area.
2 l
MR. HALLER:
Yes.
So the.e is no misunderstanding
-% v.a.m. e i me e EurMlL ff9Er*. & e. 3,FPE tst
p p
31 l
l
='
we certainly are not advocating moving at the expense of I
f public health and safety, or without regard to public health f
I l
and safety.
MR. DIRCKS:
Even more importantly we are saying 1
J l move expeditiously because of our feelings for public health 6
l and safety.
i i
7 I
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Who is the most senior official l 8
3 in the agency who is concerned full time with this clean up 9
operation?
I 10
}
I realize the chain goes up to the office directors, f
iI but at what level'is there someone who is in charge of this, I
l or is there someone in charge?
l
! l MR. DENTON:
I think full time would be John l
Collins.
He is the full time man at the site.
la i
I I
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Is the programmatic state-i I
ment under him?
l l 16 i
i MR. DENTON:
No.
That is through our Environmental I7 O
l Division, Dan Muller.
l la i
i
{
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I wonder if there shouldn't I9 i
i be a program director here for the clean up at Three Mile 20 i
.i Island?
1 l
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Will suggested he was going to be
=
i changing the staffing.
2 l
What did you have in mind?
I
- 4 MR. DENTON:
We have been talking about just that 2
sort of thing as the character of the job changes, i-% v
% i c.
me e Cp.T4h STWiult". 3. e, susTT !aF
.=
hag 2 Nc.
T 32 j
i i
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Let me ask EDO that.
I MR. DIRCKS:
I was going to get Vic and Harold I
together to find out what their resource requirements are f.
h
?
1 and agree on some sort of organizational aspect entwined j
3
{ with the idea of --
l 6
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Why should'nt --
i 7
i MR. DIRCKS:
I can't see any reason for not having l
i i
3 it, but I didn't want -- I did want to sit down with Vic I
9 and Harold and othErs to see if there are any other majors.
i 10 l
MR. HANRAHAN:
We ought to go beyond that through I
l a whole dedicated staff.
{
I MR. DENTON:
There is a project manager for the p.
l preparation of the EIS statement who is full time.
l I
COMMISSI'ONER GILINSKY:
I understand that.
14 1
I l
IJ MR. DIRCKS:
We are tying the impact statement and I
I' I
the activities of the State.
I6 i
f COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
There ought to be someone 17 who supervises all the activities.
18 l
l MR. HALLER:
I would like to comment, though, for l
19 l
a minute.
20 l
I acknowledge that John Collins is the full time l
1 i
person on site, but we found that he had a number of other I
i duties besides simply keeping tra'ck of the operations that m
are going on.
That man is very busy.
He has to sit in that 4
office.
He has to answer _ phone calls a good part of the day.
3 He has to go out at night, attend public meetings, participate ico m vain.=======. i.w.
l me m,rts ca p Mm. e, & e. suf75 tw
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e nca.sc.
l 33 i
i j
in various activities of that type.
l I,
frankly, don't know how he gets all the work
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done that he gets done and I think he feels he is going
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to need to do things he can't do now.
1 i
I COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
You are saying he 'as to be i
i I
s augmented?
7 MR. HALLER:
He needs to be augmented, yes.
I i
a And, while I am going to be skipping here, you 9
brought up the issue of the environmental assessments.
I i
jo i
thinx at least on the part of our group the concern that we l
have is that the site people, in fact, are burdened by
{ portion s of the preparation of the' environmental assessments
{
- 7 i
g,.
and we recommend t_ha_t_ be mo_v.ed back here to Bethesda so the i
14
- l. people up there don't have to go home at night along with the l
I other worries they have and work on parts of the environmental i
i assessments, and so forth.
l 14 I
l Our recommendation is that be pulled back and be j
done solely in Bethesda and consult, if you wish, with the l
la I
i l people on site, but don't charge them with writing actually 19 I
parts of this.
f 20 i
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Any problem with that?
i<
~1 MR. VOLLMER:
We have had the intention of doing C
I that for some time, but in the case of environmental t
assessment for krypton, the staff back in Bethesda was so
- 4 strapped that the technical capability really existed at the site, so we had to go that way.
But, for some time we have in
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I been trying to pull back to Bethesda those things we could pull l
back and we think the recommendation makes a lot of sense.
l l
MR. HALLER:
And while I am on that, cf course, we needi i
permanent staff up there.
We can't afford to have part time l
people in for a week or in for a few days and then back home
,I i
i 4
and somebody else come up.
i l
So, to make the staff that John Collins is supposed I
7 1
8 to have permanent, we further recommend the staff be increased.
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
That is what Bill also endorses.
l 10 i
MR. VOLLMER:
We also have tried to get a permanent I
s j
staff at the site and I realize we realize it needs augmentation l
but we have tried within NRR to find people who would be l
i i
i g3 willing to make that their duty station, either on a long-term l
basis -- assignment for a number of years, or even six
.A I
I i
g months assignment and every prospective candidate that l
has walked through my office has been cold-hearted for that.
l 16 At this point in time, I
I only have one Ferson to i
put on TMI by -- to be on the support staff by change of 181, j
la f
you know, some months ago.
Only one person of the 500 or 600 in,
19 NRR has expressed interest in doing that.
20 While it sounds like a ' wonderful idea and I think it 21 l
i should be done, I really do, it is going to be really difficult 0:
to get people who will be willing'to go up there and spend t
a long time to do it.
24 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Of course.
But, I think in some sense if we give it the higher priority and it
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becomes a more significant element of the overall work i
program that you might find some attitudo changes.
MR. VOLLMER:
I think that might help and again
(
a
! by directive from management, that that is now their job will i
3 also.
f 6
i MR. DIRCKS:
With a clear definition of their t
I' 4
l authorities and responsibilities.
7 l
3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I think we also as a Commission 9
l can clarify and and provide some of the criteria that you I
10 i
are talking about and working in that environment would I
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jj j
be more satisfying.
.i As it is now, I think it is a continual frustration.
l Id MR. HALLER:
Let me hit the two middle bullets.
I 3
i i
l don't believe they' were covered.
l' g
ji l'
g The second one we talked about already, the need for interim criteria to permit releases, at least those 14 i
I i
associated with data gathering and maintenance activities.
1,,
j We would envision that these criteria as well la I
I l
as the appropriate assessments would be submitted to the 19 i
j Commission for approval.
20 Now, the meaning of the'words "one time assessment" f'
11 i
2 l
is that we feel that once the assessment is done, then JF t
releases and data gathering activ'ities and maintenance 22 activities can proceed within the envelope of those i
i
- 4 criteria.
There is no need to come back for another assess-ment each time something happens.
You have done it once and
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that ought to cover it.
MR. DIRCKS:
It eliminates doubts people have -- are L
i l we within the understandable criteria -- are we without.
This j,
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release we can prevent.
It is important to give people j
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j working criteria.
j.
I 6
MR. DENTON:
The paper that is coming up on the f
7 l
krypton alternative will provide a framework for the 3
commission where you are going to wait for the statment.
That 9
will be a place where you decide whether you wait for the il 10 statement or not.
i The importance of this recommendation is whethe.
i I
g l
you wait for the statement or not.-
Obviously,11 a decision e
17 is made that venting is necessary because all of the alterna-i i
i' la i.
tives take years to accomplish, then you don't have to decide l
M each milli-Curie of krypton.
I, j
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
When is the venting paper l
coming up?
i,s i
MR. DENTON:
Let.no ask Dick.
18 l
MR. VOLLMER:
Early next week.
MR. HALLER:
Okay, we would also, of course, 20 recommend that once the criteria'are established that the 11 l
licensee be requi ed to revise his plans and schedules
/
JF i
i accordingly to come forth with the activities that would be done within that envelope.
i 1
- 4 Now, Commissioner Gilinsky you asked me to specifically address this third bullet on the programmatic larfguumaf'housan. VUmmes R i
inc.
aus suffte&lws*TER. N.1 e. mirTT?W
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37 l
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and environmental impact statement and I think you asked I
l what is holding it up.
i
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COMMISSIONER GILINr What is that holding up.
I.
l MR. HALL 2P What is ' hat holding up?
l i
i COMMISSIONER c'
.NSKY:
In other words, what 6
activities can we do?
i 7
i MR. HALLER:
Ecsentially right now you can't do I
i I
3 anything until that statement is completed.
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE':
Would you expand a little bit?
i 10 j
You say you.can't do anything.
1 6
MR. HALLER:
Let me go back.
The policy prohibits l
venting or treatment -- the building atmosphere.
It i
l l
17 prohibits the discharge of water decontaminated by opicore II l
i la i.
and prohibits trea'tment and disposal of water in the contain-l i
15 ment until such time as the programmatic and environmental impact; j
statement is completed and decisions are made and approved, 16 l
I and so forth.
i 17 l
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What is the schedule?
June j
18 i
l was the draft.
M i
i MR. HALLER:
June is the draft and the final is 20 now schedule for December.
f 21 I
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
What was the original schedule?
C MR. AHEARNE:
I don't k'now there was an original schedule.
As far as I know that is the schedule.
04 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Your report notes the Task
?
Force detected slippage possible.
What is the view now?
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MR. HALLER':
There is, of course, the funding i
I problem, and --
1 l
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Assuming that is off?
A MR. HALLER:
Assuming the funding problem were l
{
solved, I guess I have to speak personally on this and I am e
3 not doing so in any attempt to undercut the work of the staff 7
i in this, but I still, even with the funding approved, did not l
l i
i g
come away' with great confidence that this thing would be i
9 finished in December, but that is again my personal opinion.
l I
i It is noted based upon any detailed study of what went on 10 l
l and I know the staff is working diligently trying to maintain 11 l'
those schedules, 12 l
i l
l MR. DENTON:
We have typically more success in l,
13 meeting the date for the draft statement than we have the 14 i
I final.
i.!
l The final, of course, depends on the comments you get l
Id i
i and how it is received.
17 1
MR. VOLLMER:
Well, I feel we have an extremely la i
tight schedule for the draft.
There is a lot of work to 19 do.
20 We have these 50 people or so first in the national 21 i
l way of developing, in effect, the environmental. report which
~
j is the report on how the cleanup process will get done and then another group has to actually develop the environmental l
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- 4 impact statement on that cleanup process.
The environmental report part of it is due to be
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! then after that to complete the environmental impact state-I L
l l ment.
1 Parts of the EIS are proceeding at the present
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time, but I view that as' extremely tight.
We set the t
e 3
schedule from June to about December for the final statement, I
7 i
realizing the large amount of public interest.
l I
g
'We were sure that we could not get it by with anywhere like a 40 or 45 day comment period'.
Our experience i
i has been on controversial issues, the comments drag in g
after a fairly extensive period of time so we figured l
on something like three months for. comments and then we l
u l
figured there would still be a fair amount of time to respond to those c'omments.
14 That was trying to be fairly realistic in what our I!
j experience had been.
So, if we are hardnosed about it l
Id and set a firm comment period of 30 or 45 days and T7 i
i j
donet accept comments thereafter, we can probably do l
18 I
better, but there are certain dangers in that sort of i
19 activity.
l 20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Can I ask what would be i,
+
11 l
happening if there were no requirement for an EIS?
7_
.i I
j COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
We would be inside the
~
containment long since.
It would have been vented and l
24 people would be in there to be able to maintain that. system 15 and make sure essential instruments work.
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i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What I am asking is, is i
k~
I our staff clear on what it wants to do and wants to authorize l
and we are merely turning the procedural crank here, or is l
k l
this document one that one is looking to for some assistance j
1 i
J l
in figuring out what to'do?
I I
I 3
l MR. DIRCKS:
I think it is two steps.
1 i
i i
I COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
You are saying the answer l
7 I
i g
is no to the latter?
I MR. DIRCKS:
You know, you want to get in there and Y
e i
i g
j look at that essential equipment and you know, you wouldn't i
l want to send people in there to look at the essential equip-i ment in a krypton environment.
I l
u
{
Yes, the first thing we would like to get rid of that gas so people --
la i
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Do you regard this document f
IJ t
i as irrelevant to the cleanup operation insofar as you need l
14 i
i to comply with the law?
l I'/
,i l
MR. DIRCKS:
It is the water question.
l 18 l
MR. DENTON:
Some of the things in the document we f
19 are doing anyway.
We were committed to looking at alternatives
- o to venting before the statement was mandated by the i
- 1 i
l Commission, for example.
Wewantedtolookatthealternatives.l
=
i j
The statement will examine a number of alternatives, all the way through, how the core is inspected, and how 02 you package the fuel and how waste might be shifted.
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Goes all the waste in 4 % vom e.===== =.i c.
as spi,Tte CAM"TE M. E e. 1strfT *WF
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disposal.
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
We got ourselves into an i
I
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l overly elaborate statement.
l t
I f
It seems to me we have to consider alternatives.
Il 1
i i
l J
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Even if you didn't have any il 6
requirement, sensible planners say what will happen if we do it
! f i'
7 this way.
i 3
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What we do in the report is 9
to say we ought to do precisely that, not some elal> orate l
10 l report that is going to employ people in the national i
laboratories.
- 7 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE
I think employing people l,
g in national laboratories is good, but in this case --
l COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Do it after the cleanup?
t IJE COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Right.
But I think the i
1
! courts have established --
(3 1
14 i
i t
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
That EPA laid down after i
II l
l 18 i
saying there should be EIS's the courts have gone and j
pointed out enormous sets of detail.
l 19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
The agency did itself, but 10 k
it seems to me that this thing ha's got to be infus'ed"with I
I common sense.
m There ought to be, it seems to me, I think a 1
~~
l statement that deals with alternatives, but it may be that we i
L have gotten ourselves into a very much an elaborate state-ment and certainly, the pric& tag seems to suggest that.
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42 t
f COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Two and one-half million I
dollars and 50 man years or something like that sound to me like more impact than we can digest.
l
(
1 i
MR. VOLLMER:
At the time we decided we were r
O j
required to do the EIS, the applicant did not have the l
6 technical information we needed in order to develop a I
statement.
7 I
i g
So, what we are, in effect, doing is first, we 9
are developing an environmental report which is a report on e
i 10 l
how the cleanup process might proceed and then we are going I
to develop a statement on top of that.
11 j
Now, we could have waited for the applicant to j
do that and that would have taken a lot of time.
So, we are i
I picking up the pie'ces to some degree for the applicant.
I 14 i
I CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
And I remind the Commissioners i
13 j
i that all of that information was presented in a report that 14 i
j came up to the Commission several months ago in which we i
17 l,
j were responding to some Congressional questions, i'
18 I
We all went through it and endorsed it in the j
19 process of transmitting it to the Congress.
- o i
MR. DENTON:
The present controlling factor I il 21 l
see in the operation, the important controlling factor is
=
.I access to the containment.
That is what the licensee had 2
l hoped to do in December.
If he didn't meet that schedule I
- 4 he would do it in January; roughly in that time frame in order to look at it.
l
. me M N N. 3. e. ENFE !W s
m l
43
[
i I
If he gains access to the containment, he can j
i largely get back on a part of the schedule.
1 l
Now, at the same time the need for the statement i,
4 prohibits cleanup of the water, ll 1
but he is not actually -- I f
r 3
think once you get access to the containment that would t
6 1
lead then to some decisions that would permit finalization i
i 7
of a program to clean up the water and wash up the walls, f
3 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
And probably you get some 9
detailed information'that would be very useful with regard to 10 i
the cleanup.
I
);
j I must say I have some confidence that the contain-I l ment is going to continue to hold onto what we have in there 1
g l
i now I i
g suppose three quarters of a million gallons of water.
l 9
I have very high confidence on that over an extended l
i i
g period, but I am beginning to get, as you can detect, t
j enmorously uneasy about our ability to get to the containment i
i to do such things as essential maintenance and replacement i,s
}
! and we are sitting here looking forward ten months to a year l
12 i
19 before there is prospect of taking action.
j j
i MR. EILPERIN:
The Commission's policy statement 20 l
j does not await for the' completion'of the programmatic l
4 21 I
statement to get into the unit.
As long as the Commission l
i makes the recommendation that the'public health and safety I
require the completion of the programmatic.
I t
- 4 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I.would encourage my fellow
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44 l
3 l
Commissioners to address the criteria that are required i
t
~
for the venting or nonventing of the handling of that gas i
I i
in the containment.
l I
MR. BICKWIT:
That, I am sure, is being addressed l
i in the environmental assessment.
l i
6 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
But it has to be addressed sooner i
7 I
than that.
l i
I 3
MR. BICKWIT:
Because it is going to be up in a 9
couple of days.
Maybe it should --
i go COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
The thrust of John's I
j proposition was to get out and have some discussions with l
l people in the area, the state authority, people outside i
! l i
the agency with regard to appropriate release criteria in the j
- 3 i
post accident phase, j
l
- y j
A question, for instance is appendice "i", an l
l l
appropriate basis to judge release is below a level of release ll 14 i
below which you would say that is perfectly all right, don't I
you know and anything within that is just normal work of the l
18
'i clean up process required -- requiring further consiceration l
and I discover you are right, Vik, John.
I have the same 20 I
i trouble with Peter.
He keeps sen' ding me old memoranda and i
21 I
i j
if you had gotten it at the time we wouldn't have the 5
problem.
D He said my comments as well which I think is 24 really--Anyway, I agree.
I should have gone along with that 2
and I wonder if there is some -- staff is about to come to us m% v--n
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ms 6 CMwMm.STWur*. L s. 3,FTTTEF
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45 l
I
'1 with a paper on venting.
i
'l Is this the exercise that John wanted to carry j
i i
I out?
l 1
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
My first concern is that he l
J finishes his report.
But, as far as this one item I think j
3 l
it is consistent with Norm's report.
I believe we have 1
7 I
got to begin to involve the people in the area, the l
l g
Governor's office, a couple of the other agencies and 9
dddress directly that specific issue -- what are the criteria 10 to be used for the containment of gas and then take the appropriate next steps and I think it has to be done i
l.
i i
u I
immediately and I guess I am almost at the stage of l
[
recommending we do it.
1 i
~
14
.i...
But, go ahead.
l MR. BICKWIT:
We are committed to do it now; 13 I
committed after we get an assessment to have a public 16 i
meeting on that assessment and it would be in the course i
II I
of that meeting that this question would have to be 18 i
I entered.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Not that it would, but I want to 20 hear the question.
Il l
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
In three weeks or a month.
2 l
j MR. HALLER:
On this slide we continue with other recommendations.
- 4 The first bullet, we urge the staff continue to assess the risks up there, particularly we feel it would be in
% v
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I 46 I
I l
prudent to do some more evaluations of the potential for 2
recriticality to assure that that just can't happen.
c i
i l
l CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
As I read the risk assessment, appendix, one of the points I gather ycu made that here is l
1 i
i J
a quick look but we need a more detailed look.
l t
6
}
MR. VERNARO:
We think it is important that we i
7 I
look at that.
I i
l 3
MR. HALLER:
The next bullet is that the staff take positive actions to insure effective communication with c
I I
s a
go, j
the citizens, State, and local officia..s regarding the I
cleanup, regarding associated planned or unusual events and regarding the programmatic and environmental impact state-I u
l i
ma:4c.
ia I
la CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
In these positive actions, does I
i l
that also track with your previous bullet, previous l'
l i
i recommendation of a full time spokesman?
l 16 9
I MR. HALLER:
They are connected, and I want to state 17 l
6 here that this morning, Mr. Dircks attended a meeting with l
la members of the White House staff, with DOE, with the EPA 19 I
and there was some discussion about this general topic --
20 the need to fix up the'credibilit'y up there and there is i
21 I
I also -- there was discussion about a stronger role for i
the EPA in this activity.
~:
MR. DIRCKS:
They want to get the EPA more i
- 1 fully involved in the discussions of releases and effects 2
of releases and explaining some of these things to the in m
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47 ll I
public and working very closely with any citizens grot.ps and State groups that are involved.
I i
i i
So, I think this tracks very much with your l
l 1
suggestion.
f 5
e MR. HALLER:
In fact, I think there is a meeting j
i 8
3 next Tuesday -- is it in Middletown?
I believe it is up 7
ther?.
f l
MR. DIRCKS:
Of the effective federal agencies g
and this will be another topic to get into on Tuesday, yes.
1 i
g j
MR. HALLER:
Okay, continuing on with some of I
the other recommendations we believe it is essential to I
11 i
~
I l
assure there is adequate review for the long-term waste 1,4 l
j impact; that better defined end use of the EIS so we can 13 u
make sure the statement that is produced does fulfill the l
intended use, f
1.5 1
l This goes back again on Commissioner Gilinsky's j
16 i
l remarks and we urge.that the Commission begin to prepare in 17 i
i i
conjunction with other agencies a contingancy plan in i
la i
I case of financial failure of the licensee.
19 l
Throughout our recommendations, we urge --
- o CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Don't slide so quickly by that.
j 1
MR. HALLER:
All right.
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Your point in your report indicated '
f that -- let's see if I have the concern correct -- that there
- s isn't as far as you could find, anyone addressing what i
- .5 happens if Met Ed goes bankrupt.
in
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I 48 j
t i
l MR. HALLER:
That is correct.
I l
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
And it is not so much an i
f assessment that here is a real possibility as it is a f
possibility that someone ought to be addressing.
l A
i 3
MR. HALLER:
That is correct.
l t.
6 We did not do a detailed or even a cursory i
i i
7 i
analysis of the financial situation of Met Ed.
However, I l
1 1
3 think it is common knowledge that there are problems with the 9
financing up there.
They are embarking and participating f
a 10 j
n w in c very expensive cleanup activity.
I We are talking, you know, over several tenths of a billion dollars on this activity and that is going to j
1 l
4 1
be expensive and I think this is a possibility that might j
l,a occur and I believe it is necessary that we, at least, make 14 t
I I
some plans against that contingency.
f IJ On the last particular mark, we, throughout our l
14 i
i recommendations, urge that the EDO establish and enforce 17 l
l various plans, schedules, priorities, and resource j
la i
l l
allocations throughout and I am sure that --
i' 19 i
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
For that work I think you 20 need some one person in charge.
j 11 l
MR. HALLER:
Yes.
C MR. DIRCKS:
I think th'at is what we intend to talk I
about.
l
~
4 What I wanted to do was see if the Commission went 15 1
istruunam Veammes Mapswrwu. Im:.
ao mat %e CM'WE. 57567. & e. mJrTT ter er w
cac.; sc.
49 i
i j
along with the general set of recommendations that we had.
l
[
I wanted to take action right away to get some things l
?
i moving.
I think I said I intended to do so, but I would like i
to see how the Commission comes out with a general thrust l
1 i
i 3
l and then we have certain things we want to start doing.
l l
5 We want to look at the resource level; the impact l
I l
7 l
statement.
3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
When do you expect to be able to work your way through all of that?
9 I
10 l
MR. DIRCKS:
Well, first of all the interim f
criteria and the necessary environmental assessment, much i
1 l
of that is discussed in Harold's paper, but I would like to l
4 1
have something done in that area by March 19 and I would i
1 l
like to have the Commission's decision paper down here by 14 I
t l
March 21.
13 t
i The second area I want some idea of the resource needs l 16 i
e i
for the programmatic and environmental impact statement on its 17 l
current schedule and the resource need if we can accelerate la i
that schedule and I would like that analysis somewhere 19 i
around March 14.
20 1
i 4
I would like'to talk ab~out the increase in 1
permanent staffing at the Middletown Office and the on-site O
i support group; some transfer of a'ssignments on the environ-
~.~.
1 mental assessments and the ESI.
- 4 I would like some discussion of the organizational approach.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I mean changing the structure i
I of the Middletown office, you think you can do that?
l
)
l MR. DIRCKS:
All right, I will do that.
l i
i COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Please do it as appropriate.
l J
MR. DIRCKS:
It is done.
6 Now, the krypton papers venting is coming down i
i 7
to the Commission by, I think, March 7.
Maybe next week I
1 i
g I heard this morning.
9 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
You suggested it may have some l
10 j
criteria in it for releases in this period, but then I
talked about further paper on criteria for the first of March.
le l
l MR. DIRCKS:
This is the criteria for what is the 14 1,
interim; the maint'enance and observation type.
What can we do?
I IJ j
Can we make it clear where the staff has 14 i
i certain authority to do things without referral back to s7
,1 j
Washington, or to the Commission?
l 18 1
4 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes.
19 f
i MR. DIRCKS:
It is that type of thins and we want 20 l
l l
to support that so we are clean an that point.
We are j
- 1 I
t' talking about March 21 on that.
JF I
j CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
You'are hoping to get that?
23 i
MR. DIRCKS:
Yes.
As I mentioned, the krypton
- s paper from NOR is due down here the beginning part of next week.
em
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I 51 i
I would like research to complete any necessary
!. technical studies they have on this subject of criticality and i,
i any other questions, say by the beginning of April.
1 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I don't know what they are going l
i i
3 to do Pbout it.
The handy thing is to get in and make sure l
l you keep a couple of operable neutron monitors taken away.
6 l
7 i
That will tell you.
I i
g Furthermore, if you can get in, why you can do other things that improve the reliability and operation of the 7
i l
10 l
boron sampling instruments that are taking a flow path l
i outside.
MR. DIRCKS:
Well, --
l l l
i.
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
The whole key is to be able to I
1:
j' l
get at least a limited access for these maintenance purposes 14 I
to the primary system and then I think there, in fact, is --
l IJ l
then, if.it takes more time to settle down to see how best l
16 i
i to treat the water and handle those wastes, then I think r
17 l
f that is an acceptable time frame.
But, it is going on a l
18 1
4 I
full year since anybody has been in there and looked at ll 19 l
that stuff and we are talking about another year maybe
- 0 and that won't wash.
i i
11 i
MR. DIRCKS:
Well, I think one of the main things
?
j I think the report has done is to'restimulate our interest.
1 l
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Well, I certainly agree with
- 4 all the points you have made in your cover memorandum, Bill, 2
the things you are about to get done.
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e' I also want to start the discussions with the l
federal agencies and the State of Pennsylvania and the people.
I l
l I think we really do have to pick up the recommenda-i l
I
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tions here in getting more understanding out of the public j
i i
i
{andIdon'tinsayingthatinanywayfaultwhatJohn j
s f
llCollinshasbeendoingupthere.
As Norm has said, they are 3
7 stretched too thin.
j i
MR. DIRCKS:
It is a resource question.
3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
And we have to have someone whose 7
i 10 l
full time job is to try to keep the public and everybody i
abreast of what is happening.
l We have a number of other concerns expressed u
l through letters, for example, on one of the Congressmen l,
I a
14 here pointed out the difficulty of just getting consistent l
or constant updated information.
f IJ j
j It is just that we are so resource limited up 16 f
there.
I7
{
MR. DIRCKS:
I think the point that Norm discussed 18 i
with the Mayor --
19 l
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Mr. Fouchard (phonetic ~ spelling)
- o has indicated a great deal --
i 1
i MR. FOUCHARD:
The conversation with the Mayor i
indicated a need for more day-to' day activity with the j
citizens group.
i 4
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Did that reflect the local 2
groups there to have access to somebody independent of NRC so mm v==m. % x l
.....,m e.,
~
f j
ca cz w c.
l 53 i
j they can cross check with what they are being told by the i
2 I
NRC?
i i
l l
MR. FOUCHARD:
I think it reflects a combination of the two.
1 I
i 3
f We naturally would like to have more support to l
t 6
l verify information that is coming out, our sources.
That I
i 7
l is why the suggestion was to have EPA up there and there f
I i
i i
3 is also suggestion to get more funding for more State 9
institutions to get involved in this matter.
e j
I
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Would the transcript of this i
i 3
j meeting be available up in Middletown just as a matter of i
l f
course?
I think it should be.
l g
i g
I think any meeting we have of this sort ought j
i g
to be -- the transcript of the Commission's meeting should be l
i available and, of course, to the Pennsylvania authorities.
l I
l MR. COLLINS:
Can I address the question of I
14 l
I credibility?
i I7 i
Since I have been up there since the 30th of March, la I
i l
think sometimes we ate listening to a very small corps I
19 i
of people making statements about NRC's credibility.
20 I
j There is an awful lot o'f people in that area who l
11 1
t believe we are doing a good job.
We are telling them the l
I I
truth.
There are' a number of people who are concerned because >
i 4
'i they are not notified on the telephone every time an alarm 7_
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i fringsdownintheplantsotheytelltheirneighborthatand I
the first thing you know the newspapers reach it and our f
credibility appears to go down.
It really doesn't go down.
I have gotic to a great many public meetings and i
1 Dick has, too.
There are a great many people who have a l
i t
i i
6 lot of respect for NRC.
i l
The whole area isn't against us.
7 3
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I wasn't trying to imply that.
Do you disagree that we ought to get out with information 9
go on what is happening?
MR. COLLINS:
And we have attempted to do that
- 7 by periodic briefings with the State, with Met Ed, and l
j
,i
.i i
ourselves.
1 I
4 i
In fact, we have one scheduled for March 20 in 14 1
Lancaster at which time Met Ed briefs those activities IJ j
i j
that are going to occur.
l i
l It gives an opportunity for the staff to discuss 17 1
l their concerns and the State to discuss their concerns.
18 That has gone a long way.
19 i
I personally meet with groups at night, but there 20 i
is always going to be somebody who feels he is not getting Il l'
l enough so
.e can over do it, too, and I think we have to l
i caution ourselves.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Joe?
i L
JOE (?) :
Yes, sir.
Let me concur in what 15 in ro von.= me.w m. i c.
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55 6
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i i
John said.
i For example, I don't recall whether it was the i
first or second release, but I had a call from the Governor's I
i 1
l press secretary urging us to get something out promptly i
l saying that the people up here believe you.
l 6
Secondly, John is stretched too think up thnre.
i l
He needs some more support and more technical support.
I 7
3 don't know whether the full time spokesman is a technical 9
person.
That is not the issue right now, but I do believe that I
i we do need to do more.
l 10 l
I For example, John at 3:30 this afternoon is going to drive up in the rain and hold a press briefing on opening l
i l
air lock.
I.
d 14 i.
We have to do things more on a fixed schedule and I
~
l provide more daily information to people up there.
l i
l CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I want to say this is a very f
14 i
l fine study.
17 f
MR. SEIFERT:
I would like to make one comment.
l 18 t
Having been a member of the group while this report does l
19 k
f come out fairly strong, there are some members of the 20 l{
group, including myself, that some of the statements should
- 1 i
i l
have been even stronger.
We do have concerns that while j
we were not able to identify spedifically those conditions I
m i
i that might lead to undesirable events, that there is I
L degredation taking place continually.
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There is a significant amount of piping, for i
example, that is under water connected to the primary i
l system that is in an environment for which iu wasn't l
6 s
l really designed and while it may last for another two I
i years, it may begin to fail fairly soon.
We don't know.
t I
i i
0 i
We can't put numbers to those things.
i l
t The same thing is true of valve packing, seals 7
i i
a and things of that nature.
I have a real concern that one 9
of these days we are going to wake up and find significant 10 l
leakage from the containment in the auxiliary building, and I
if that should happen it is not the end of the world as far I
l as the general public is concerned, but it certainly is going
- 7 to make clean up of the facility extremely more difficult.
f'
- 7 I
i CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Thank you, Kara..
l g,
i I think that point came across very strongly today i
g I
and it is good to emphasize it.
I!
14 i
MR. SEIFERT:
I wanted somebody besides Mr.
j l
i Hendrie to emphasize it.
l!
la l
i<
1 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
The news just travels 19 slowly.
20 I
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I th' ink it is like the Senator 21 I
i
[I and Goverr or.
22 i
I did want to say I thought it was a good study l
and it is getting us back on the right track and it shows that
- 4 quick studies are often better than long, drawn out ones.
15 i
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f 57 j l e
l j
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Could we apply that e
e l
principle to EIS statements, you know, put a two week limit.
l 2
l Anything you can't think of in two wecks, never mind -- or j
i 30 days?
I 1
3 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I guess I wouldn't want to j
s leave the subject with the notion that somehow the environ-i i
l mental impact statement process was to blame for everything l
7 i
i 3
that had gone wrong post accident.
I e.
I think Steve made the point earlier that our i
i 10 l
Policy statement did allow and still does allow us flexibility I
to deal with events coming up as we see a need to do it.
j; l
As to the extent there i-s any perception that we j
.u l
are not prepared to do that, or giving us a chance to I
correct that, but'I don't take the situation in Three Mile i
14 i
e Island now as being a situation that the decision to prepare i
l an EIS was a mistake, or that it ought not to continue.
I 14 3
f l
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
That is not what I was
+
f saying.
j 18 MR. DIRCKS:
The impact statement is a very i
19 valuable tool because I was there at the beginning of the whole 20 j
I thing back in the early 70's.
21 I
l CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
All right, you can learn.
=
i MR. DIRCKS:
But the po' int is the impact statement, if it serves as a document to help you plan action and
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u carry out actions it is very important.
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If it is a document that serves only as a proforma i
t
(
type of document to explain to the public all the great
~
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things you are doing, it doesn't serve a purpose.
It has to f
1 I
l serve a working purpose.
That is what we say in here -- let's i
J l
use the impact statement as an integral part.
l t
f COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
But, in order to do that you 6
i 7
have to be able to do an impact statement on the kind of I
g basis Dick was outlining as part of the normal and reasonable 9
planning for an operation in which you try to decide which i
jo l of a number of alternatives at each stage you do and then you i<
r
, rite down a summary of those considerations and say we j
looked at this and it has these problems.
We looked at the j
t la.
other things and it has these problems, but we don't seem i
14 to be able to do t' hat ever since 1972.
I I
l I
1.5 Every time you say Environmental Impact Statement j
j j
on Atomic Energy, you get $2.5 million worth of work after I
14 i;
i two or three years and you know, four or five volumes for God's 17 l,'
sake.
13 i
j t'
I have been swearing and sputtering.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
It is a whole separate study 20 and that is because it was origin ~ ally turned over to the Il I
l national laboratories.
C COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I would comment in addition in C
i no way am I critical of the staff; that I am charmed in a way I
- 2 by the prospect that here, for the first time, we finally inm m:
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are beginning to accomplish a really total regulatory l
2 i
regime in which the staff is, with one hand, writing the l'
l 3
l application and with the other hand, going to review it and see, l i
i
)
by God, whether it passes.
}
1 i
3 It sets a model for the future which really encourages 6
me.
I have had all kinds of trouble with applicants in i
7 I
my career and I now see a way to get around that.
I COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I have one other point.
3 Vic, sometime ago in a memorandum to me you noted 9
l i
while in health physics situations it was improving, it was 10 I
l still not satisfactory and you specifically said before i
l any major radiological recovery steps were undertaken you l
l would have to be satisfied that the health physics program i
14 is in order.
i I
13 Is therea ny change in that situation or at least can you include your up to date assessment in whatever comes up l
14 I
l regarding the venting of the krypton?
l I
MR. STELLO:
The most up to date assessment would be jl 18 from John, but let me add what I have learned is that there 19 I
1 are improvements being made and continue to be made.
I0 i
1 It is a difficult area"and you are at the state Il l
l of the art in health physics and before you do vent that will l
C i
be looked at.
There can be no qu'estion.
I might ask John to give you the latest steps.
04 MR. COLLINS: Shortly after the special panel which 2
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reviewed the health physics practices submitted their i
- 1 2
!, report to Harold Denton, that report was submitted back ji l'
i l
to the licensee with a request that on a quarterly basis he I
1 provide an update of where he is going and meet those
.u \\
l e
recommendations.
j 3
l We have just received his first quarterly report.
i i
7 i
The staff is evaluating that and that report, the results I
r of that will be coming out.
lI I'
g 1
With regard to the on site health physics program, l
9 1
Vic is right.
There has been a tremendous amount of growth in 10 I I i I the health physics program since the time of that special
);
panel and hired additional people.and they are continuing i
l to hire additional people with expertise that is required l
1,4 in this field.
l 14 i
l We are not in a position at this time to say i
IJ i
I i
l that they are there and everything is okay to proceed with the i
16 i
l long-term recovery program.
17 i
l That is a continuing part of our evaluation.
I 18
.i l
l have your memorandum.
We respond in that way to you and when l
we believe we are at a point that we can sit back with 20 some comfort and say they now have a total program -- fine.
21 l
We are not there yet.
Certainly, I don't want to leave you with that.
MR. STELLO:
There are a few things that have f
1 i
not been mentioned.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Use the microphone.
There are j
people in the back.
i MR. STELLO:
Okay.
l l
i f
On preparing the EIS statement, I perceived a I
1 I
real need to pay c areful attention to recognizing there are j
I l
only so many people to work on a problem.
6 i
l Let's take the venting of the containment.
There 7
i i
3 was a study done as to what the impact might be.
I think i
9 we had earlier worked and said you don't need to spend more I
i a
10 i
than $1,000 to improve one man's recommendation.
I i
};
j I suspect all the alternatives to venting that have i
12 been done have far exceeded $1,000 by several orders of l
s magnitude and the point that bothers me is that is tying j
i l
j up some very important people who could be working on the systems and the processes 'needed to get on with it.
l i
l If there is any way to make sure that the expenditure l
I g
l I
i of the resources, both on behalf of us and the licensee is done very deliberately so you don' t have any more than you la i
really have to have.
)
i The second point and one that didn't come up is IU
!i i
i the addition of requirements and'the one that maybe we j;
21 1
i ought to take another look at is the solidification of the I
waste after the epicore system was designed, produce the I
i i
waste that it does produce.
We have now asked them to go i
- 4 back and build a new system so that they can solidify the waste which have obvious impacts both in terms of exposure in,
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to people on site, and then on the same critical issue, i
i resources.
i l
l Those resources apply to designing and building l
and fabricating and installing another system to handle f
1 i
i t
f those wastes twice is another area that I would encourage that I
i 4
we need to take another look at.
I l
I say this now recognizing that the EDO feels i
7 1
5 rather strongly on the subject.
Maybe he has a conflict of 9
interest on the subject.
j i
l 10 l
That is another area that ought to be looked at.
I CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Well, Vic, the issue was j
brought up, discussed at length in front of the Commission l
l'
- 3 and the Commission did give that direction.
l i
l j
There is a proposal to review.
t l
f
),
l MR. STELLO:
I recognize that.
i j
I was wondering if the impact of this report i
t i
generates a climate for reconsideration.
I I
i CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Having been on the other side la i
of the issue, I will have to talk to the fellow Commissioners 19 i
to see.
'O I
i j
COMMISSIONER 'HENDRIE:
If you voted my way, then we
- 1 i
I wouldn't have this problem.
=
I I
MR. DIRCKS:
I think if there is a problem we are concerned about the lack of speed they are moving on the 04 solidification.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Any other?
'l II MR. BICKWIT:
Just one thing.
f l
l I do think there is a lot of flexibility in the l
question.
i; i
f I do think CEQ's recent regulations are designed I
i I
5 i
to take advantage of that and I just think that whenever i<
7 this Commission is of the view that the needs of public I
i' i
health,and safety conflict with EPA, that is a good time to i
9 test the flexibility of NEPA.
i l
10 i
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
But, that flexibility requires i
I i
1; us to rise up and declare an emergency.
l CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
No, it doesn't.
l I
- 3 Vic has pointed out several times probably we have l
i gg worked ourselves into a number of these.
It is not driven i
by that, the court decisions.
- y I
l Norm, thank you, very much and all the people who i
gg i
have worked on it.
t i,s l
I i
i I thank all of the staff members plus Dean l
18 l
l Palladino who certainly deserves our thanks.
It is an 19 excellent piece of work.
It certainly has refocused our 20 i
i attention and I think,'I hope a lot of good will come from 21 e
it.
02 I
I would like to say that whoever wrote it, if it was you, or whoever wrote it ought to write more of our papers.
22 It is very clear and I also would like to thank Commissioner 2
ums % v n mim i e.
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64 O
i I
Gilinsky because really, this was at his instigation.
I O
The Commission supported it, but it was a result l
2 l of what he saw as a real problem; good insight and is going to f
I i
lead to us being a lot more responsible.
l
(
MR. HALLER:
Thank you, very much.
l 4
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Thank you.
l l
(Whereupon, at 12:47 p.m., the Commission adjourned, l
7 I
3 sine die.)
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CERTIFICATE i
I This is to certify that the foregoing proceedings i
were held as herein indicated, before the Nuclear Regulatory l
l fcommission, meeting en banc, in the matter of:
I i
3 STAFF BRIEFING ON ASSESSMENT OF CLEAN-UP i
i 6
i AT THREE MILE ISLAND; l
Further, that this transcript is a true and i
7 i
i 3
accurate reflection', to the best of my ability, of such i.
9
- Commission meeting.
i l
10 I
l I
1 i
l NORRIS F.
SWETLAND
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- 7 Stenotype Reporter f
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