ML19308B914
| ML19308B914 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 05/10/1979 |
| From: | Jason Wright PENNSYLVANIA, COMMONWEALTH OF |
| To: | |
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| ML19308B910 | List: |
| References | |
| TASK-TF, TASK-TMR NUDOCS 8001170619 | |
| Download: ML19308B914 (64) | |
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CCIDf0!P,iEALTH OF PEIRISYLVANIA l
J liOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES IICUSE SELECT CCI211TTEE - TilREE MILE ISLAND Verbatin record of hearing held in the Ittjority Caucus Room, Main Capitol Euilding, Harrisbur::, Pennsylvania, on
- Thursday, May 10, 1979 10:00 A. If, liO'I. JAMES L. WRIGET, JR., Chairman
'fon. Bernard F. O'Brien, Vice Chairman 1 cn. liicholas B. Hoehimann, Vice Chairman Hon. Eugenc Gecsey, Secretary I' EMBERS HOUSE SELECT CO:Ef1TTEE - THREE ITILE ISLAIID Hon. Janco D. Barber lion. Ivan Itkin i
Hon. Reid L. Bennett Hon. Stanford I. Lehr
!!an. Kenneth E. Brandt Hon. Joseph C. Manciller 1
tion, hark Cohen Hon. Marvin E. Miller, Jr.
Hon. Ecnneth J. Colc Fon, ilarold F. Mowery, Jr.
Hon. Ronald R. Couell Ilon. Jeffrey E. Piccola l
4 Hon. Uilliam DeWeese Hon. Sacual Rar>paport 1
Hon. Rudolph Dininni Hon. Stephen R. Reed lion. Donald U. Dorr Hon. John E. Schcaffer Hon. A. Carville Foster, Jr.
Hon. C. L. Schmitt i
IIon. Stephen F. Freind Hon. Ted Stuban Hon. Joseph M. Hoeffel, III Hon. Noah W. Ucnger lion. Willian K. Klingaman, Sr.
Hon. Paul J. Yahner ALSO PRESENT:
l Marshall Rock Reported by:
Pohnet Hollin Dorothy M. Ihlene
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DorA M. Mane Registered Pro [essional Reporte.
135 S. LanJis Street Wummelstown, Pennsylvania 17036
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COVERNOR RICHARD THORUBURGII 3
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i LT. ' GOVERNOR UILLIAlf W. SCIWITON, III 23 1
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CHAII';WI WRIGHT:
Iay we call the Select Co=2ittee on Three lille Ialand to order please?
On behalf of the House Select Cc=iittee I welcome Governor Thornburgh and thank him for accepting the Committee'c invitation.to make a statement concerning the incident at Three lille Island.
The Cotmittee net lat.e :cek for the purpose of having technical briefings on nuclear energy and nuclear power plante.
The Corriittcc is now embarking on a mission, which van assigned, and we appreciate you appearing before us as the Coanittee begins its work.
We knou you have a tight schedule.
When you feel yo r time is running cut, you have got to go, stand up and we vill excuse you.
We anticipate a statement and the opporcunity to ask a couple of questions after ycur state-ment.
Ccvtrner, the microphone is yours.
(> Prepared statement presented by Governer "'hornburgh.)
GOVERNOR THORilBURGH:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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CHAIRMAN WRIGHT:
We thank you for your rather h
frank discussion with us and I assune you have a few minutes U
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4 to handle several questions.
I have prepared a couple which I think you pretty well ansucred.
LY CIIAIPJE URIGIT:
0, 1.~ould you like to nake any additional cements in regard to your cerrmunications uith the White Ecuse?
Did you have any technical problens getting through?
What was the cooperatien?
A On Friday tr.orning, March 30, follouin?, ny con-versation with the President during which we discussed the need for a sin tle authoritative source for technological data frcn the site and the efficient ccmmunication of that
'C data, the Signal Corps, at the direction of the White House, established within a matter of hours an appropriate cornun-ication systen that tied in r.y office, the White House and Three Mile Island.
Thereaf ter, our cotriunications capability was instantaneous, and needless to cay, highly satisfactory.
The hot line was put in because the normal phone circuits were overicaded and there was frequent difficulty in our being able to coamunicate in necessary ways in this area.
Q Did the Khite House itself offer you any advice l
or did they leave that completely in Mr. Denton's hands?
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5 O-A My conversation with the President on Friday morning was, I think, a general agreement, resulted in a general agreement,that no general evacuation was necessary at the time; but was more concerned with his and my inability to look to a re' table source for the tecnological assessment necessary to make those decisions in the futura and, as I-nentioned, the communications capability that we had to look for.
Thereaf ter, we were in frequent contact with Mr. Jack Watson, who the President designated as his personal representative in Washington, to help us expedite whatever we needed through members of my staff and with Jody. Powell, the Wite House Press Secretary, with regard to the coord-inntion of dealings with the press.
Q Uas any consideration given to declaring an emergency under the Federal Disaster Relief Act?
A Yes, that matter came up rather quickly and was the subject of convernations between ny office and the White House.
The request, as you knou, must coce from the Governor to the President for a declaration.
It was felt at the time that a declaration of using such words as disaster, emergency, and the like might have a tendency to increase the public O
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i perception in a possibility of a panic or unplanned, un-coordinated evacuation.
Once we were assured, as we were, that Pennsyl-vania and Pennsylvania citizens would not be prejudiced or penalized in the sense of availabic federal aid, we determined with the White House that we would forego the request until the process had been brought under control.
Needless to say, the assistance from the White House and from 23 separate federal agencies during the crisis was extended to the maximum extent irrespective of whether or not any formal declaration wac made.
Our principal concern was that by failing to seek such a declaration Pennsylvania might be prejudiced in some way.
Uc were assured by the White House, and s:' sequent events have borne it out, that there would be no prejudice and we agreed with them that the potential for creating a false impression in the public mind by such a\\ declaration would outweigh.. going through that formality at the time.
CHAIRMAN WRIGilT:
Representative O'Brien has a question or two.
BY REPRESENTATIVE O'BRIEU:
Q Mr. Governor, first, I want to conmend you and say that I think you did an outstanding job under the con-P
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attio== comi=a ta-n=t 1 co#ceraea-t n v c o nue eio==-
On Page 3, you state that, " Friday,' March 30th, an unplanned burst of radioactive steam had been released into the air."
I, for one, am not too enthused about decisions the NRC has made in the past or even during Three Mile Island, Who did you take orders and who was advising.you,on when you thought people should be evacuated?
A We sought the information that we required to make those judgments from every possible source.
Beginning on Wednesday morning, l' arch 28th, when there was only one source, the utility in charge of the operation at the plant, continuing through Wedncaday and Thursday, seeking advice from our own evironnental and health officialc, from inspectors of the Iluclear Regulatory Cormission, until it became clear by Friday morning that the welter of sources that we had was not producing a clear picture of the events and conditions at the site.
And that accessment caused me to ask the Presi-dent to send un one good nan in whose vord we could place our trust.
That man uas Harold Denton and thereafter he became the sole source for us of the technological assesstment necessary for us to nahe on an hourly, minute-by-minute basis so that uc could respond and protect the interest of the
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kJ health and safety of Central Pennsylvania accordingly.
Q~
Mr. Governor, in the beginning you stated you took advice from Met Ed employees.
Uho in Met Ed do you feel would have been qualified to give you that advice that was an expert in radiation?
A I have no idea.
Q In other words, in the early part of it you relied on people, and I am not blaming you, because under the con-ditions I an not satisifed, many things could have happened in the early stages because the top people vere not there and the experts were not there.
I still cannot find out from f]
the experts what radiation is and tdiat is a big dose and when v
abould you declare an cmergency and this is uhat I am con-cerned about.
I think, Governor, ycu are too.
A Absolutely.
I cust say that I would have been a lot happier if IIarold Denton had been on the site at 7:50 a.m. on Wednesday morning, March 28th.
Q All right, let's take Denton.
Do you feel that Denton is knowledgeabla enough to determine,as an expert in radiation,in advising you when you should have total evacua-ticn?
A
'70,. cir, I would not rely on anyone person for that kind of inforration.
Ubat we did was to rely upon him v
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9 for the technological assessment of what the conditions were nb
Then we sought advice at the site on a continuing bar,is.
from federal from health and environmental authorities, In short, we were con-officials on evacuation procedures.
stantly reassessing the facts and the appropriate response There was never any one time during the ten day period.
where I or I think anyone vould want to put all of their In making down on one source of information or advice.
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decisions, it was my responsibility to seek out the best source of facts, the best source of expert opinion, and that is what we tried to do throughout the entire period.
but I have one more I know your time is short, Q
I know you are concerned about the customers in question.
At the present time the state is, on the the Met Ed area.
gross receipts tax, reaping about seven million dollars a I have a bill in that I year on just this emergency money.
would like that forgiven by the state and also in the inter-change, there are utilities reaping a harvest of profit is your position on both of What because of an emergency.
those?
familiar with the bills in particular, A
I am not Representative O'Brien, but I will study them.
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10 PIPRESENTATIVE O'BRIEN:
I would like you to look in and maybe have a meeting with the utilities to see if they could work out a nonprofit emergency setup, where they would forgive, in a case like this, someone like Met Ed.
That is something like Met Ed was paying $3.00 a megawatt hcars when they were operating the plant.
Now they are paying $39.
So they are paying a gross receipt on that, plus there is profit in there.
CHAIRMAN WRIGHT:
Representative Geesey.
BY REPRESENTATIVE GEESEY:
Q Lihe Bernie, I would also like to echo my thanks
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and my appreciation for what I consider an outstanding job on ycur part.
There is no question in my mind that through-out the entire crisis you exhibited a public display of calmness of coolness, and to the best of your ability, a knowledge of the facts at hand.
It had a very positive effect on the people in 92nd District and I thank you very much for that.
I do have some qucstions I would like to ask you, Governor.
First, you indicated in your statement that you had a problem with the accuracy and the credibility of the information provided to you from Met Ed.
What prompted you h(_)
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eo come to chae conc 1usion2 A
Well, I think the first incident that caused us to rethink the reliability of information furnished by the utility was on Wednesday after they had advised the Lieutenant Governor and he had advised the press, and through the press the public, that there had been no release of radiation on site and thereafter we discovered, through the Department of Environmental Resources, that a substantial release had taken place between 11 o'cloch and 1:30 on Wednesday, March 28th, at the very time that the Lieutenant Governor was extending that advice.
Thereaf ter, the Lieutenant Governor, quite properly I believe, was obliged to and did appear at a second press conference and report those facts and that kind of inaccuracy caused the credibility of the utility to erode considerably in our minds.
Now, I don't mean to say that we then ceased examining their public and private utterances, but we began immediately to reali::e that there were other sources that we must look to.
And let me say this, Representative Geesey, because I must be fair pending a determination of what the final facts were, which will make many investigative forums O,
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I think it is important to realize that we don' t hnou uhat the basis for erroneous. statements or omitted stacenents vere.
They may have been simply becauce of failureto know particular facts, it may have been because of a mistake with regard to particular facts or, indeed, it.
- may have-been a ccascious misrepresentation of those facts.
But I an in no position to riake that judgment.at this point.
O Eut is it safe to say that it was a fluid situation?
A All too fluid.
Q Were enere subsequent cecasions when you felt the same way you did at that time?
A Alr. oat constantly.
I must say, as I expressed to memberc of the media at our regular press briefings, when they pressed for the same kind of facts that I was pressing for, that I was extremely fru.strated in trying to get the facts pinned do m.
I an trained s an engineer and as a lauyer, as ycu knou, Repreacntative Geesey, tuo professions that depend upon the integrity of facts as a basis for nakin,7, decisions.
And the best advice, most expert opinion in the ucrld is *.corth nothing if it is not based on accurate facts.
So that my quest, as I indicated to Representative O'Brien, y
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V wac constantly to deternine the facts so I could take ad-vantage of a broad array of expert opinion that we tried to make availal,le, but the facts were central to the efficient conduct of the responsibilities that. I had.
Q Governor, one of the problems that we, at the local level, had.was the evacuation plan.
Inasmuch as.we for the first tima in the state, looking at the poten-
- vere, tial of a cassive evacuation, would it not be advisable for the stato for the first time to have veto power over a local evacuation plan for the purpose of preventinp; one county fron evacuating into another county; for the purpose of making certain that all available major arteries are utilized (v~T in the event an evacuation in necessary?
Would you support that kind of ler,islation?
A I don't knou whether I hiow enough at thia juncture to ancuer that, Representative.
Q I uould be happy to talk to you about it.
It to a problem.
A Well, let me toll you ny concurn.
As you hiou, in the plan that is in ef fcc.t in Pennsylvania, cop #es of which were furnished, to aep:bers of the General Assembly soue two years ago, a wide variety of contingenc'.es are O
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dealt uith; floods, fires, other natural disasters as well as the.need for evacuation around a nuclear reactor site.
I am not sure that in the final analysis the capability to carry out an orderly evacuation should it ever become nec-
- essary, is tied as much to the printed word and the plan, and we have all seen our share over our public years of 3;,,
those nice plans that are done up in plastic folders with tabs and ring binders, as it is to the calmness and coolness-and levaiheadedness of those people at the state and local level uhose responsibility it is to take appropriate action.
I don't know of any ler,islation or of any plan that can ensure that those peopic are in the right place at the right g$
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I commend you for your instinct of the reviewing the plan, but I caution you as I caution myself constantly, not to be reassured by a plan that may look to be in perfect order without evaluating the kind and quality of the personal commitment made by those uho have responsibility to carry it out.
Q That is always the final key, the people in-volved.
One final question, Governor, how do you view the
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Now I am not performance of the URC prior to the incident. :
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uJ talking about Mr. Denton becauce like you he did a superb job.
Without him I think we smuld have been in serious trouble, but their overall performance in terms of the plan inspection, in terms of carrying out their regulatory func-tions?
A I think final judgment on that has to await the accuntiation of facts and evidence that will be developed out of many proceedings such as thin.
But I do find serious aherteccings as I indicated in ny statement in either the efficacy of the requiremento and procedures which were pronul-gated by the NRC, that ic, their possible inadequacy or the policing of conformity with those requirements and procedures.
Let (to give you uhat I think is a most graphic example in that respect.
In Mr. Denton's 1:ords he fotmd the technological capability of Metropolitan Edison at the site to be thin, inadequate to deal with this type of un-expected event.
That says seneching, to be sure, about the utility.
But to me it alco says concthing about the Nuclear Regulatory Com.innion.
Because it indicates to ne that in licensin:; thir facility there tras inadequate concer.i on their 4
part for the enintence of that capability at tbc site on the part o-l. the utdlity.
So I think the recponsibility for th n
16 AV thinness, in Mr. Denton's ucrds, of the technological re-sponse capability that intst be shared by the utility and t h e tiit C.
REPRI:SEUTATIVE CEESEY:
Thank you, Governor, and again, congratulations on a job unll done.
GOVEIUTOR THOR:iBURGH:
Thank you.
CHAIRFAN URIGHT:
Rcpresentative Dorr, BY REPRESENTATIVE DCRR:
Q Governor I have three questions, which I think can be shortly ansucred, respecting the economic situation we face in Central Penncylvania.
First of all do you consider O
V the economic problems facing the people of Central Pennsyl-vania as a result of the Three Mile Island accident to be a nerious detriment to the <.cifare of the entire Comonucalth 4
generally?-
A I think thnt our response to the incident by seeking inmediately a desicnation from the Small Business Administration of this area as an economic disaster area 1
clearly indicates our concern that whatever in the way of cconertic consequences are visited on this area be dealt with with every pessible resource.
Uc have submitted to the federal government,under the Lieutenant Governor's signature, v
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a comprehensive request for every available type of aid.
V The question you ask, however, is one that I am not prepared to answer at the present time because we are still in the process of sampling the business cormunity and the financial community within this area to try to de-termine some quantifiable measure of uhat injury, if.any, was done to the economic fabric of Central Pennsylvania.
What we have done, however, is to be in a posi-tion to take full advantar;c of uhatever relief that is avail-able for the harm that ne determine may have been suffered, q
I appreciate that ancuer and we are all con-cerned about those effects, but I am speaking particularly of the ratepayers of Met Ed and the other utilities that might be affected as ucil.
I am vondering -if you considered a need for a solution to those probic :s that are going to face the senior c!.ti:: ens and others of us who pay those rates to rice to the level of emergency in terms of a timeframe in which those solutions have to be applied to be effective?
A 1 have to be a little bit careful of my juris-dictional reach, Representative Dorr, in commenting on that and my remarks must be understood as being as an individual rather than as the Governor, because that rate structure is within the sole province of an independent agency, the p
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Public Utility Commission.
And they are, at this moment, embarked on the arductis task of trying to come up with some kind of solution in that regard.
On the other hand, you as a legialative body, vill be looking at a number of pro-posals to deal with this problen as well.
I think my concern is that a continuity of energy supplies at the lowest possible cost be assured for Central Pennsylvania.
I am not smart enough to have the ansver to that up ny sleeve.
I will view with considerable interest the results of thia hearing and the hearings being conducted by the Public Utility Commission in the hope that uc, together, p) can fashion an. appropriate;responsc :to.try to inaure that u.
continuity of energy supply at the lowest possible cost, no matter what it takes.
Q Sene of the responce that the Legislature is capable of taking and state government is capabic of making depends upon such terminology as caergency and disaater, as you ; ell knou, and that is the point I am getting at.
One further question, one of the persons who called me first when ve started thinking about the futurc in terms of the ratepayers, made the sracement which has stuck with me since then, that we, in Central Pennsylvania, have suffered a detriment of Three Itile Island, but in the b
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ver7 real seuse. the world is 11*e17 to de efie from the lessons no icorn from Three Mile Island.
Therefore, he thought, and I tend to agree with him, the vorld ought to share the cost in the Three Mile Island Accident.
I am wondering if you can tell us, and I may have missed this in your earlier discussion, whether you are now considering aching the President for a declaration under the Federal Disaster Act and what other conversations are going on with the federal governnent with respect to federal relief so that all Ancricans can help us. pay?
A We have established a cab'inet level cournission (S
chaired by Lieutenant Governor Scranton and all appropriate
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federal agencies under the chairmanship of Thomas Maloney, the Chairman of the Federal Regional Council for Region III, which is an umbrella agency, involving more than a score of federal agencies.
They have received from the Lieutenant Governor a comprehensive request for all available aid to this area.
Now, again, I caution that much of the avail-ability of that aid will depend upon facts that are yet to be developed, which will be developed by the fact finding efforts being ca ried cut by that cabinet level group and rC
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20 by this committee and by the President's commission and by various other groups that are seeking to pinpoint the facts of the af termath.
But I am assured by the President and the White IIouse that all appropriate aid, available aid will be forthcoming to Central Pennsylvania.
In that sense, the federal government and the taxpayers of the nation will share to the maximum extent legal and feasible and possible in helping us deal with the problems that are left in the afternath of TMI.
CllAIRMAN WRIGHT:
Governor, your scheduled time is running out.
We have a number of menbers who would like' to ask questions, but I realize the problem.
I will allow-just one more question, Representative DeWeese,and then you can go on for the rest of your schedule.
GOVERNOR THORNBURGil:
May I say if there are additional questions, that you feel free to submit them to us in uriting and we will try to respond.
I have an 11 o' clock obligation.
CHAIRMAN URIGliT:
One short question, Representa -
tive DeWeese.
REPRESENTATIVE DeUEESE:
Governor, you indicated on Page 6 of your testimony, that you felt good about the Pennsylvania Energency Management Agency and the personnel
21 in place in regards to the office across the street.
On the 28th of March in the evening, I was in the Lieutenant Governor's office and.I wanted to participate in a briefing on the problem by Dr. ;Gallidoc and Mr. Higgins.
And due to certain events and confusion I accept, I was not per-mitted in the briefing initially.
At the end I finally walked in,nd participated.
Eut the reaction fron my good friend, It. Knause, of the Lieutenant Governor's staff was that he didn't want even Willians and lienderson in the coeting.
Now Williams and Henderson, Governor Thornburgh, are the two leading,
genticmon in this Comonwealth for disasters, and evacuation and emergency preparedness.
And I got a statement from I'r.
Knause that he did not want Williams and Henderson involved.
I would just like sone clarification of this conflict.
Page 6 where it says PEl% are o, cod ouys and know what they arc doing and that evening's enperience confuses me, sir.
They were from the other administration and we wanted to work to-gether.
GO'EPJIOR '" HOP 2!BUilGII:
I crinnot cotTient on any.
conversation you ray have intd with scmeone else, Vr DeWeese.
My statement was that the plan was in order and that ny re-action to perforcance of PE!% uns positive, k,ai
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REPRESE:iriT1vE DeuEESE 1micia11y, ehe admin-istration in general had a very good feeling about PEMA and that feeling is not modified.
GOVERNOR TIIOR11 BURGH:
I stick by what my state-cent says.
REPRESEllTATIVE DeWEESE:
We will follow that.
up with the Lieutenant Governor.
Thank you.
ItEPRESE11TATIVE O'BRIEll:
Mr. Chairman, can we have the Governor come back at another date when we are more ver sed.
CHAIRI&N URIGliT:
We vill make a request as the time permits.
We thank yog Governor, for appearing with us.
I think it would be proper at this point to take a five minute break for Dorothy to limber her fingers up.
(The hearing was recessed at 11:00 a.m. and reconvened at 11:10 a. m.)
CIIAIRMAN URIGh7:
On behalf of the Select Connittee, I welcore the Lieutenant Governor and thank him for accepting the connittee's invitation to appear before us today.
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When we first scheduled the Lieutenant Governor, we were told that the Lieutenant' Governor's schedule might be subject to change.
In fact, the Licutenant Covernor tends to make a lot of changes, anticipated to start today, change of diapers that is.
LT. GOVERNOR SCRANTON:
It hasn't happened yet.
CliAIPJIAN URIGHT:
As a prospective father we know that you uuuld like to be with your wife right now and we sincerely appreciate your appearing before us this morning.
The microphone is yours.
LT. GOVERMOR SCRAliTON:
Thank you, Pr. Chairman.
(~>)
(Prepared staterent presented by Lt. Governor Scranton.)
CHAIPJ"AU WRIGliT:
Thank you, !!r. Lieutenant Governor.
At this point I would like to inject an announce-ment.
Khen ue finish this session with the Lieutenant Governor, ue will break for lunch and there is a slight change in the afternoon schedule.
We vill be back in this room at one o' clock, not two o' clock, but one o' clock, for Colonel Henderson of the Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency.
Then we plan at three o' clock thia afternoon to take the tour of his Command Center over in the basement of the Transpor-QJ
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tacion Safeev Buildina.
You were gracious to suggest that you would like to handle some questions.
We have a number of representatives who didn't get a chance to talk to the Governor.. We are going to see what kind of a job you may do.
LT. GOVERNOR SCRANTON:- All right.
CHAIRMNT WRIGHT:
The first representative is Mr. Brandt.
BY REPRESENTATIVE BRANDT:
Q Governor, you and Governor Thornburgh have addressed quite well the decision-making process that you have done through the whole Three Mile Island incident.
One i
ongoing issue I would like you to address is the current I
issue off of Three Mile Island is the dumping of the water into the Suscquehanna.
I would like for you to explain to this Coranitte how the Governor came to the decision of allow-ing this to,. happen;1 also did he concur or did his office con-cur with local officials downriver from that plant in his decisioc?
A I think the way to answer it is this.
I just talked to Representative Miller about that problem.
Earlier I was in contact, yesteu _f, with the Mayor of Lancaster, there O
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i= extreme coacera aosmriver or ene au=rias or u see-I have talked to our Bureau of Radiation Protection, offcials in the Department of Environmental Resources, and they have assured me, and also, I have spoken uith Vic Stello, who was Harold Denton's replacernent at Three Mile Island, and told them about the concern of this dumping and they assure me that this dumping is almost routine in its nature.
That the amount of pollutant in that dumping are vell below stato and national environmental regulation limits.
And that they vill be closely monitored while that dumping occurs.
That the Department of Environmental Resources will warn the (3
various counties in the area and dosmatream of when that is w) going to occur.
The Department of Environmental Resources will stop that dumping if levels of pollution get to a level that is unacceptable.
I think it is important, houever, to point out, and I think this situation is exacerbated somewhat by the emotion that is involved, that has been involved in Three Mile Island and I can understand that completely.
That what is being dumped is not the contaminated water from the primary cooling system.
That the highly radioactive water within the plant will be processed on site in a special build-(J L
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ins that they.111 bui1d over the nexe coup 1e of montiss, will be that the waste taken out of that water will be solidified and will be truched off site, not flushed into the river.
So in summary of what you say, I think permisnion or lack of permission comes from the Department of Environ-mental Resources, based on the standards that are currently set by the state and the national people.
That there has been ongoing consideration, particularly with the Mayor of Lancaster and others, with ny office, from Civil Defense and the Department of Environmental Resources to assure that this is done in a way that will not cause a health hazard to people downstream.
It will continuo to be a very difficult public relations problem I am sure.
But this administration is committed to doing everything it can to make sure that those levels are safe and to informing the people when it is going to occur so it doecn't seen to be happening clan-destinely.
CIIAIRMAli URIGilT:
Representative Lehr.
BY REPRESENTATIVE LEllR:
Q Representative Dorr put the questions I had to Governor Thornburgh.
The pressure I am getting back in O
27
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my district is who is going to pay for this now?
And I am sure you are pursuing every avenue you can to get federal funding.
You know, the taxpayers in this arch of Pennsyl-vania have paid to bail out New York City, a bankruptcy.
We, the taxpayers, helped to pay for that.
We, the taxpayers of Pennsylvania, helped to pay for flood victims all over the country.
So ny concern is that we should have federal aid to help fund the disaster at THI.
I hope that you will really pursue this in all efforts.
A Let me answer your concern.a minute.
There are two aspects of this that are important.
One is the economic repercussions of Three Mile Island as it affects day-to-day affairs of the area.
Second of all, are the utility economic effects. Who pays fcr cleaning up Three Mile Island?
As the Governor pointed out, that second problem, although I think it will be and has been debated and will continue to be debated is currently in the hands, at least temporarily, in the hands of the Public Utility Commission.
But we have put in an application for a very extensive socio-economic impact study for the area, a very extensive health effect study for the area, a very extensive environmental monitoring study for the area.
About $150,000 in funds that we can use to promote Central Pennsylvania as a tour $ st O
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23 l
' Q promotion area.
Baced on : what we find from these area studies, which are being conducted by both the federal and the state govern =cnt, we will not hesitate *o apply to the federal government for whatever funding or services we feel is appropriate to enke up for uhnt ne have found the deficien-cy to have been.
It uill be a careful study.
It will take time.
But uhan you cay that you urge the adninictration to be an advocate for the poopic of Central Pennsylvania, I think I can assure you that we vill be.
Ci1AIPyaw URIG11T:
Representative Jeff Piccola.
BY REPRESEhTATIVE PICCOLA:
O o
rueen ou. ur cheir==-
- 1. toe. wou1d 11*e to v
add my cocmendation to you, Bill, and to the Governor for your outstanding performance and particularly for your remarks concerning the local volunteers and professional civil defense people.
They appreciated your efforts during the crisis, I know.
In that regard, as you were probably aware, the Dauphin County Civil Defense Plan for evacuation, particularly beyond the five mile radius, uas absolutely, it is my under-standing, uas absolutely dependent upon the use of school busca for its success.
\\,!
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29 On April ist, that was a Sunday, it is my understanding that the Governor taade a conscious decision not to close the schools beyond five miles.
Are you aware and can you tell us what factors entered into his making that decision at that eine?
A I think a number of factors and I think the same factors that entered into his making a decision prior to that on sfnether to evacuate or not.
First of all, we were assured by that time that the disastrous consequences that would require an evacuation outside of a five mile aren uould have sufficient lead time, so that the normalication of affairs in this area of the state ought to be un<lertaken, i
I think that it was important that there be as much as reasonably allevabl.e, and we felt that it was reason-ably allowabic, an air of life as usual going on in Central Pennsylvania because the area was facing, with the closing of the schools, exodus of people and therefore sone econonic disruption and other social dicruption.
That for the purpose of confidence to maintain the lack of panic, to caintain the daily socioeconomic dealings of this area, that the schools our,ht to be open, We vould not have done so if ne had thought, that p),
b 6
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ziven the deat reliedle information we coula cet from the
!!RC, from the Defense Civil Preparedness Agency, Federal Disastar Assistance Adninistration and others, that by heep-ing the cchools open we were seriously impairing our ability to get people otte should an accident occur.
We felt firmly that on the advice of the technical experts and on the advice of the evaolation c:cperts that uc ucre not putting that in jeopardy by keeping the schools open.
Q I vould like to follow up on that.
Could you tell us uhat kind of lead time these experts were telling you you vould have and uhy you vould have that lead time?
And I mean that in the sense that if somethin;. ucre going to happen that uould require an evacuation, would it have been something that uns'. consciously planned by the operators or if it was something that was not planned, would they know it was going to occur within a certain amount of time.
A It uns not going to be socething -- it would be something that was not planned by the operators. 'If it verc something that were planned by the operators, ue uculd have an indefinite anount of tine, tTe always toch the worse case scenario. What happens if the stability of the reactor vere to becoce A
NA
. mate m. a.ww ss a
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31
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suddenly jeopardized, the reactor were to heat up and there would be a meltdown, and there would be an escape-into the atmosphere of an intolerable icvel of radioactivity.
I think frem a ten mile radius, the very least, the smallest amount of time we vere given, uas prior to that Monday,.uns about seven or eight hours.. This was.the best advice of our own people and the federal people.
But that as the weekend went along and as Monday came, that ex-tended itself from seven to ten to twelve and eventually to thirty-six hours.
So ve had a considerable amount of tice.
I think it is knportant also to point out that although school buses are extremely valuable in evacuation,
(
they are not the only thing that is depended upon for evacua-tion.
We would expecc people to use their private cars and other methods.
But you are correct in pointing out that the school buses are part of that ' plan.
REPRESEllTATIVE PICCOIA:
Thank you.
CllAIRIMN URIGilT:
Representative Reid Bennett.
BY REPRESE:ITATIVE BENI!ETT:
O Covernor, you said in your statement that, I am quoting you, "already we have to face economic hardships as a by-product of Threc !!ile Island." You say that, "it seems n
ka]
32 f
()
unfair that businesses should suffer economically because of the minicpressionsthat unre created by the sources during this episode."
Nunber one, would you elaborate on that?
A Yes, I think that, although I can't give you a dollar figtxe, there were many instances of business inter-ruption in Central Pennsylvania.
I don't latow of any cases of major business closings permanently.
But for instance there were conventions that uere scheduled in Hershey that were not followed up on and cancelled.
There were milk deals which were not -- milk that uns not bought at least during the crisis.
(}
Now, I think this was caused by not, I think it was caused by the uncertainty, the conflicting information.
l People didn't knou uhat the effects of radiation were.
The iodine levels in the milk that we were getting were well below, Ear belou, the levels of iodine that we were getting following, two years ago, the Chinese bomb c:cplosion.
But as you can appreciate, I think that everybody can appreciate, there is a tremendous emotional baggage that cones along with nuclear.
And I think that that had an effect of telling people, just to be on the safe side ne are not O
uj
33
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going to buy Pennsylvania milk.
Signs uere put up in Mary-There ucre land saying we don't sell Pennsylvania milk.
There were a nunbcr of connents about buying Hershey bars.
conventions coming to this area and tourists who vere coming to this area, agricultural production was always questioned.
Mou our indications are that we bounced back But there vere econonic rapercussions fron that very ucil.
of that,,particularly during the nost tense part of the crisia uhich uc have to evaluate.
The psychological devastation of the disaster ve have to be extremely careful.in overcoming.
Governor, Governor Thornburgh in his testicony Q
3 indicated, and Representative Dorr posed a question, as to s
I thought the reason for not declari.g it a disaster area.
the Governor's answer uns ucll in that he said he did not I
- However, want to create any further panic, possible panic.
I am not certain at this point in ny own mind uhether or not yet today the area has been asked for and declared a disaster Can you ansucr that?
area.
A Yes.
!!o,- it has not.
Although I would not be the person to be able to give you a definitive answer to I suggest you talk to the Governor's Office; I think
- that, One, there continues to be the for a couple of reasons.
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vs7choloatcal problem.
If ceneral rennsylvania 1e declared a disaster area, I feel certain you are going to see those signs back up again, We Don't Euy Pennsylvania Ifilh and let's take it easy and cancel out of this convention.
There are also, in this disaster, it was unique --
it was unique and those who lived through Agnes in 1972 can contrast it.
Bccause During the Agnes disaster there was tangible destruction.
I!omes ucre flooded, furniture was destroyed, businesses ucre destroyed.
There uns an economic value that you could assess icnodiately.
During this disaster there vasn't an econonical value you could assess innediately and under the lav, tech-p(>,
nically spanking, the federal government requires there to be a certain ceiling of that kind of thing.to be documentabic, which is the reason uhy we, beginning uith the phone conver-sarion with the President on Friday, were insisting, and I have to give the President. credit hc was: c::tremely cooperative in telling us uhether or not Central Pennsylvania is tech-nically -- can technically be declared a disaster area.
We stand ready to narchal federal resources and funda to Scip you (a) datornine uhat has happened and (b;) recover from that.
And that is going to be an ongoing situation, but it is an extremely difficult thing to peg down.
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135 Q
At the present time, is there any program now in place to compensate those nerchants and employces who did suffer economic hardship and if there is, to whcmdo they apply for this?
A The disaster relief from the Small Business Administration is the only one thac I am knowledgeable with at the moment.
They apply through, I may be wrong on this, but I believe they apply through the local SBA office or they can apply through the Commerce Departrent here in Pennsyl-vania.
I do not knou of otheriso-called emergency pro-O grams that are in the traditional sense of that word.
I do know though of a major federal commitment to funds and technology to come in here and study the problem and help us overcome it.
But as far as loans, specific disaster loans, that is the only program that I know of that is currently in operation.
Q Finally, Governor, thosc ~uithin_a fivecmiletradiue that'.were ordered out by the Covernor, certain persons, enny outside of that area left of thcir oun volition.
Can those persons cutside of the five mile radius apply for that compensation?
(V3 l
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36 A
I do not huotr that as yet.
First of all, let Q
ne correct a sord you used, and it is inportant I think here, the Governor didn't order. peopic out of the five mile area.
It uns an advisory that pregnant uomen and pre-school children 1 cave the area.
Had they been ordered out it would have been a fornal evacuation.
It was not that.
The people outside of the five nile arca, if there had been a disruption, business disruption, or economic consequences that fall under the terms of the SBA energency disaster loan program, they are eligible for it.
There was no formal declaration of an emergency so there would be no formal reason uhy you would say people within five miles vould have access to scrething people outside five miles would not have access to.
REPRESEPTATIVE SEHITETT:
Thank you, Governor.
We will talk to the Secretary of Corraerce.when he comes before us.
CIIAIPJIAU URIGHT:
Representative Paul Yahner.
SY REPRESEI;TATIVE YAHITER:
0 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Governor Scranten, having been a farner nyself all ny life and !!inority Chairman of Agriculturc, the farners statewide are asking me questions, O
QJ
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37
. O why aren't u hearing m re ab ut hou un are going to take care of. the farn people and their livestock and food production in case of a real evacuation or worse cones to worse.
We hear very little about this.
Now, it isn't so easy for a farner with a couple hundred head of cattic to pichnup and go.
Soncone has to be there to take carc of those animals day and night.
Arc there any plans as to uhat ue tx)uld do in the case of a real energency?
A This was one of our concerna in declaring a pre-cautionary evacuation.
Phen ue talked about the fact that there were children in incubators, people in old age homes, uc also were in discussions with Mr. liallovell in the Agri-culturc Departnent about what the iripact would be on Agricul-ture.
I would like that you would hold off that question and ash IIcn lienderson about the details of it this afternoon.
Ilut it uns very unch a concern to us and ue had the sanc doubts that you did about the completeness of plans for a farn area.
And I think that that is one of the areas you are going to uce addressed in our investigation and in the whole energency cana3cnont aspect of'it t6 try to bridge whatever gaps are there.
That is a connitnent I can give you.
I uould not like to to out on a linb on the details of it.
I tuuld rather you wait and ask K en llenderson about it this s____.____.
38 h
afternoon.
But it was something that was very much on our minds during the whole incident.
CHAIRMAN WRIGIT:
Representative Mary Miller.
BY REPRESENTATIVE MILLER:
Q Governor Scranton, we chatted before the meeting briefly and I would like further clarification of the topic of the proposed water cican up at the current plant site.
The first question is, you, in answering Representative Brandt,
indicated that the water Leing dumped into the Susquehanna was only normal uncontaminated cooling water, is that correct?
A No, it is contaminated.
Q It is contaminated?
I I
A To my knowledge it is.
Q Iodine contamination?
A I don't know, Marv.
You really ought to ask DER.
You will have to ash them for the breakdown.
My assurance has been from the Bureau of Radiation Protection that whatever contaminentraight be in that water are not of a level that are not permissible under federal and state regulations.
Q That is really not great assurance for the simple reason that haN there been other discharges of those normally 0
39
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acceptable levels, you realine therc/are a number of chemical compounds that literally coupound themselves when discharged into the environment.
The district I represent draus their drinking water slightly dot;nriver from Three Mile Island, which is also the drinking water which services one family or another, nearly every resident in Lancaster County.
The very sane people who suffered the anxiety, the economic disaster as much as any of the folks in Pennsylvania today.
You said, in responding to Representative Brandt, that a decontamination system would be brought on site, set up to take care of the most contaminated unter.
Uhy then can't the rest of the uator be decontaminated once that
(
system is set up'l A
I don't knou.
To give you the absolute truth on it, I don't know.
My understanding is that the systen that is currently in operation can only hold so much and it is capable of processing a certain acount.
Sone of this is industrial wastes, which is normal waste from any system.
That this is unat is apparently. art of what is going into the river.
Uhether or not they could hold this on site for the nonths that it vill take to set up the systen to decontaminate the primary cooling water, I can't tell you.
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40 0
I thinh that Tem cerueu :x or eomeboa7 from DER will be here as a witness and I suggest you ask hin.
But my understanding is that this is water they can't keep indefinitely on site.
Q I have a great deal of difficulty with an anuwer that it can' t be done.
Of course, we were told nuclear accidents don't happen as wohl.
It is a reciprocal issue.
If, indeed, the federal government cooperation is as earnest and committed as the Governor and you have indicated,to us.
today, e y can't we draw upon the resources of the federal government to handle this?
Is it a raatter of equipment and hardware?
A I don't knou if it is a matter of equipment and hardware.
I think that if it requires the cooperation of the federal government, I think we have that.
The federal government, for all intents and purposes,is the overrsite group that is down at Three Mile Island now.
The federal government is the group that is bringing in the equipment to decontaminate the primary cooling water.
I don't see why, if it is of necessity to use the federal government, to prevent a health ha:.ard to the people dounstream there is no reason uhy we can't.
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41 O
o te cuere te atter=eetve Poce=et t de"8er e th^t drinking water system, then I m uld submit it is most necessary.
I would ask if you would be kind enough to recomend to this Ccmittee c witness who can give us a specific anstrer before ne go hither anc fon or before it. is dumped and done.
A I think Tom Gerusb', who is the Director of the Bureau of Radiation Protection, I believe you expect him to testify in. front of this group.
If not, he would be a man I would suggest that you question on this.
REPRESENTATIVE MILLER:
Thank you.
CHAIR?%N URIGIIT:
I would suggest in' order to save some time, the members of the Cetmittee would, if possible, hold their technical questions uhen we talk to the individual departments.
I am not trying to shut you off, but perhaps sone of the department heads might be a shade more qualified to answer sone technical questions than the Lieutenant Governor.
REri"SENTATIVE MILLER:
V.r. Chairman, I would like to respond.
It is a pressing problem to those of us in the area,and as a acaber of the Committee,they are appropriate questions.
If you feel they are not, I would recommend, by motion, that you establish a subcomnittee to look into these n
U i
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42 pJ They are not those that will hold for a feu veeks.
I thank you.
CHAIRIMN WRIGHT:
Representative Hoeffel.
BY REPRESEliTATIVE HOUTFEl.:
O Governor, until today, Governor Thornburgh was advocating starting a progran of state licensure for the operators of nuclear facilities and for the management of the utilities running those facili2ics.
In the statenent today, he did not include that new trogran of state licensure.
Has the adninistration changed 1:s view on that?
A I don't think so.
Although I do not feel quali-hs fled to answer that question for hin.
I think there has been a frustration on the part of state governnent that it doce not have nore control over an operation which represents tremendous risks to its people.
Whether that vould require the state being involved in the licensing procedure or whether it uould require the state having the ability to shut down a plant when it felt there was some danger present or whether it vould involve some kind of consultation uith 22C in any of these procedures, I don't knou.
I think there is a realistic feeling in this administration that we do not unnt to get to the point where we are so tying up any power plant O
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43 f) in rec,ulatcry procedures that we put in, j eopardize their v
having a fair chance to operate.
I can't tell you uhether the Governor at once decided that we ought to have licensing procedures and now has abandoned it, but I can tell you that there is a very strong feeling in this administration that the state ought, i
to have core control than it currently has over the operation of those plants.
Q Do you knou ; hen the position of your administra-tion night be more formalized?
A I think it vill probably be more fornalized as
/~T the course of the investigation carries itself out.
There G
11 a lot we don't currently knou.
He don't really know what niatahez uere nade rnd who nade them.
We will listen to your rcort of thin Go=.ittee, to the report of the President's Cetmiccion, to the report of the NP.C.
This is froing to be
. nhile, and I think that if we jump up before we know every-thing we can 101ow and cay this is the role the state ought to play, vc vill be nahing a niatake.
But I do think we can. stand pretty strongly for i
the principle the state ought to have nnre control over it than it han had in the past.
Q Are you naticfied uith the evacuation plans that I
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existed arcued other nuclee= caci 11:1ee in rennextvania?
A No, I an not.
Eut there is a reason for that, becaust ue nou have to tighten those up and bring them out to 10 and 20-nile evacuation plans in response co some of the concents that vere t.'de during the Three !!ile Island procedure.
Colonel Henderson and the staff of the Pennsylvan-in Energency l'anagement Agency have been visitine those plants and conducting seminars and meetings into beefing up the Civil Defense orocedures around those plants.
I think they are pretty good now.
Sene of then have more fine tuning to go, but it is one of the top priorities of Civil Defense and they have 'then added since,Three Mile Island, they will continue to until those plans are finalized.
REPRESENTATIVE HOT.FF"L:
Thank you.
C!!AIP."AM URIGilT:
!!cu'is your time schedule?
LT. COVEP.UOR SCRAUTCM:
At noon I have an appoint-
- ent.
CEAIP24Al' L"dICHT:
Do you thinh you could handle a couplc of more questiona?
LT. GOVEIC:0R SC2ANTON:
Sure.
CHAIPJ%it WRIGHT:
Representative Cole.
O I
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-m
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av atratssuraT1vn Cott:
Q Governor, t'ac NRC Headquarters is less than a n hour and a half by car from Three Mile Island.
I think one of the major questions is why has it.taken three days for them to come up here with their staff.
My question to you is did they finally core to Three Mile Island af ter three days at the request of Governor Thornburgh's call to Presi-dont Carter or did they final 3.y make initiative on their otm af ter they reali::cd what a serious prob 1cm was taking place at Three Mile Island?
A I don't really know the anster to your first part.
I don't know tdiy they didn't come up here before.
There was, in reading the transcripts. of what went on,an apparent lack of connunication between the site and the NRC, which I don't really understand.
For this reason, like all other federal agencies, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission has a regional office.
Its regional office locally is at King of Prussia.
As coon as the uord came out that there was an emergency at Three Mile Island, the King of Prussia office, at their initiative and at our request, because we made sure they were coming, sent a tean of investigators and a team of nuclear experts here to the site and they were here by V
u.r...,
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46 OV ten o' clock en Wednesday and they were here all day Wednesday and all day Thursday.
It is a surprise, and these are sone of the peopic that ue had to rely on.?or information, it uan not only the plant, it was they and the Depart:,ent of EnerF7.
uho brought in a special team at our -cquest, and our own Department of Environmental Resources.
Uhy-there was not that coordination, I don't Ic:ow.
thy r: hey didn't come up here before that, I don't know.
.ny they finally did conc up hera, the Governor in his convercation with the President, I was present when he had that conversation, firmly requested to,I think to the aurprise admissitnof 1200 millirems of (3
radio rictivity from the stach that corning, at least the,t uas
%)
the vord we had Friday mrning, urred the President, requested
' fron tha President, that he send scanbody uho could speak
- ?or the Ecdera. nualear preaance, cachody who kneu what they ucrc talkin; :bcut., here at Three
".le Inland.
And 1 think that van a ver; r:;rong catalyat in their coning.
R"'TEEE!!?ATIVZ COLE:
Thank you.
Cl!AIRMAIT "RIGIIT:
Reprencntative Cohen.
3Y REPRESENTATIVE C0 Heli:
I l
Q Governor Scranton, Had there been. disaster de-clared, individuals uho fled would have been entitled to
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senefits.
if net, then businesees.
Ae thints now scend, individuals who fled could not even got insurance benefits.
I uonder sfnat your administ-ation is going to do to help i
/
those individuals who flad, who are outside the five mile
/
radius?
A I think there is a nisconcept. ion that I would
' [
like to clear up and that is uhether the Governor can declare a disaster.
The Governors cannot declare a disaster.
Tne Governor can request that a disaster be declared and the President declares a disaster.
Ue had-on site peopic fron the Federal Disaster (3
Assistance Administration, which is the agency which processes O
those requests freu the Governor, and our indications were fron the federal governrent and fron our side, that they not only would ba an eraccrbati.ng influence on the uncertainty and the panic of the arca to declare a disaster and it would have richs of its otra that va fcit were unwarranted.
But also that the legal r,rcunds for daclaring and for putting those prograns inte operation that you talk about, sicply were not there.
That is uhy ve are breaking whole neu ground on Three Itile Island.
That is why we have set up this cabinet task force to uork uith Toa IM1oney of the federal O,o n
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i 48 regional council to try to blazo new ground, to try to, in a sense, hire cooperation from the federal government which is not legally mandated.
So, to a certain degree, this is
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aomething that has never happened before.
It is not like an Agnes flood.
Q Did your administration consult with insurance g
conpanies at all before rmking any advisory?
A Before making which advisory?
Q The five-aile radius advisory.
A Hot to my knouledge.
Q Was there any discussion uith the Governor, to
(
your knowledge, about consulting insurance conpanies?
A I think there was knowledge of the fact that the insurance company for the utility was on s Ltc and once that ovacuation had been in place, although it vac not ordered by the Governor, that insurance company began paying out to the people who had voluntarily evacuated in Hershey, etc.
There uas also a very thorough investigation of the Price-Andersen Act by the Governor's legal counsel and his staff.
So the insurance consequences were not ignered.
I think it is a matter of practicality uhen you are in a
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cituation like that and information is coming very quickly.
It is very difficult te make broad based inquiries in an l
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caergency situation.
Your first concern is for life and health of people.
Only accondly and ddring -- in the throes of an emergency are the insurance canacquences.
That isn't the foremost on your nind.
So I thinl as a practical measure I am not sure of the widespread consultation with insurance companies :.'ould have bcon a practical course of action.
Q Under Pennsylvenia lau it cays, "a dinastar i
i cmcrgency shall be declared by executive order or proclara-tion of the Governcr upon findind.'the occurrence of threat or dinaster exhibited.
The state of disaster or emergency shall continue until the Covernor finds the threat or danger passed or the dinaster be dealt with to the extent the er.crgcncy conditions no longer axis; and terminate the state of dicastar ccorgency by executive order er proclamation."
Your annuer ic it conen under federal lau?
A Yes, I tL.. :h the rencon for that is, and I an not an expert in that lav, I think the reason for that in that if you have a federal disaster, if the Governor declares a fednral diaanter, he can then do nome things such an call out the :Tational Guard and pay them.
But what van alloued by that action did not seen to be warranted at the tir.e, 73 would not give un greater access to really the federal money (w/
4 J.4
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50 0
that ue.ere 1eening eer and thee we rea117 had our eye on.
and at the same time, exacerbate what we considered a very volatile situation emotionally.
Q Uhat are the proven dangers of evacuation that Covernor Thornburgh referred to?
A I think the proven dangers of evacuation are the fact that you are taking a risk two ways.
You are taking, I think, a rich three ways.
You are taking a health risk like you have a great aucunt of elderly people and babies in incubators, life support cystems, and I don't think that you would have had an evacuation, at least I would not take p
the responsibility, where at leact one person dying either a
from diseasca they may have al eady hadb Lot that would in-evitably loan to that evacuation.
Second of all there is economic consequedces of it.
Un got word from plants up and down the area that if we have to evacuate imnediately and closa down irraediately, our start-up time, ue juat can't shut nachinery down and 1 cave.
We have to close down olowly and if ue did that, our start-up titre, either we wouldn't be able to start up or cur start-up time suuld be so long that you sculd suffer tremendous danage, And third of all, I think that you aren't dealing nU c
51 O
mich the suse9uehanna niver f1ooding.
1e the susquehanna River floods, people can see it flooding and they can see where it is going.
But in a situatian like that, and people know what the result of a flood is, but a situation like that where there is so cuch uncertaintity, the volatility of emotions are three, four, five-fold a normal. disaster.
That is, obvio6 sly, a value judgment a governor has to make.
And I think that is a judgment that can be, as he mentioned in his testimony, debated as to whether he did too little or too much.
IIou I think legitimately so.
But I think the ground for which the Governor decided not to declare an evacuetion are those grounds that I outlined to you and that he outlined and that it is a, in the final analysis, value judgment and one which you cannot line up pieces of evidence on one side and pieces of evidence on the other side and come to a final stop.
It is a tough call.
O I would like to know your version as to why it wo so difficult for ifr. DeWeese to get into your briefing?
A Certainly.
I think, and I talked to Ifr. DeWeese, and I think t. hat there was a misunderstanding on that.
First of all, there are two aspects of it.
One is Ken llenderson and Craig Williamson and the other is Bill DeWecac himself.
Ken llenderson, and that evening, we were
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in my office meeting as a function, not of Pennsylvania Emergency Management, but trying to get information for ourselves and the governor, meeting with gentlemen from the Nuclear RegulatoryCommission from the King of Prussia, crew u
that had come up that morning.
We called Ken Henderson and Craig Uilliamson and told them we were having that meet-ing and invited them there.
They came, we asked them to wait outside,12. Gallino came in and his associates from NRC, some peopic' came doun from the Governor's Office, we were trying to maintain an atmosphere of not having large crowds in meetings uhich had tended to occur during the day.
We brought ir 2raig Williamson and Ken Henderson, gss V
we nico brought in Bill DeWeese, but we did not want it to be a situation where there were a lot of people coming in and making a tremendous confusion which had happened before.
I think it is important to point out we have great confidence in Ken Henderson and Craig Williamson.
He had been in the Governor's Office early morning, right af ter our initial press conference we had, he was involved in all the press conferences that we had, he was involved in all of these meetings.
It l
wasn't a matter of that.
I think it was a matter of in the confusion of making sure that we had some order, that we were approaching it in an orderly manner.
It was not my O
53 O
my intention, as I told Bill, to keep him out.
It was not our intention to keep anybody out, but we thought that under the circumstances that una the best way to proceed.
- Again, it was a value judgment.
I apologize to him personally for any rudeness that night have occurred, but I do want the Committee to know that it was not a catter of not having confidence in either Bill or in the Eccrgency Management Agency Q
It is ny judgment if you want to stop contra-dictory information the best way is to get everybody in the same roon at the same cine no that the number of people operating on the basis of second or third or fourthhand-information is ninini::ed.
A That is true.
But also you need to get that in-formation at the first time.
And very often when you have a lot of people in the room t$ tat are coming at a lot of differ-cut angles, then you can't get tho. information you need to i
nahe that judgment.
REPRESENTATIVE COHEU:
Thank you.
CliAIIU%U WRIGHT:
Tine is running short, when you have to leave, stand up and go.
Representative Geesey.
BY REPRESEliTATIVE GEESEY:
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54 O
o covernor, 1e is ex unde =standins, under presene law, that an evacuation plan is prepared at the county level by county officials.
It is further my undersranding that the state has no veto power over that evacuation plan, is that correct?
A Ue have no -.we concur in the plan,.we give then guidelines, but ua have no way -- Civil Defense is a local operation.
Uc have no way of firing recalcitrant civil defence directora, we have no way of saying your plan is no good, your plan is unacceptable, you have to come back with another.
Un nahe value judgments on then.
I think Ken henderson can explain to you the details of how that
^
,d is done.
Eut ue have no overriding voto power currently set up.
Q Uould you like to have vato power?
Do you think you should have it particularly d en the pensibility of a nasc multi-county evacuation e: cists?
A I thinkthere ought to be very stringent under-ctandings on the part of the national, and you bring them in too, because they change their mind, state and local county officials as to the plans.
It think you have got to allow the counties the ability to naneuver.
They know their areas bent, they knov their pecple host.
You can't,
.. _ m _ _....
e 55 from Harrisburg, say this is what you have to do when you have to do it.
But there has to be, I think, tighter cooper-ation mandated for at least getting that plan out, at least getting the specifica down and understanding how an evacua-tion is going to occur both between the state and local and the state and federal.
Q Let me state uncategorically that York County has a plan that will not uork, that it can only serve to further confuse that could quite possibly, because of the evacuation route, serve only to possibly injure people should they proceed along those evacuation routes.
The plan has' got to be changed.
And unless the power for veto is con-centrated someuhere that plan won't be changed.
The only people that agree with the plan are those who drew it up and those who drew it up came from Maryland, never been to Pennsylvania in their life.
And we are stuck with it and that isn't right.
I would like to see somebody somewhere here have the power to veto and order a change in the evacua-tion plan that won't work.
A I think this Committee can be very helpful in pushing that.
REPRESENTATIVE CEESEY:
Thank you.
CHAIRMAN WRIGliT:
Representative Cowell.
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56 4Q IW REPRESTHTATIVE COR:LL:
Q Covernor, one of the things that this Corraittee will ultimately try to do I suapect is reconstruct the se-quence of events.
I would like to refer to your statement and that of the Governor earlier this morning, you thought that the nost difficult obstacle.that you had was to gather or overcome the obstacle of ratherin:; and evaluation of proper information and you cite the first erroneous reports.
The Governor, in his atatocent this norning, said the company issued statements in the earlier days that proved to be something less than accurate.
/
I assume that you agree with Governor Thornburgh's statenent?
A Yoc.
Q Could you more specifically tell us about scme of those something less than accurate statements or crroneous reports.
Furthermore, tell uc specifically how that impeded what you had to do?
A Firt of all, I think the one statement that certainly shook me personally, I know it shook the Governor, ;
)
was the statement that came out and I don't know quite hou
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it came out, Uednesday morning, from the utility, that there
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57 had not been a release of radiation into the atmosphere, which was directly in contradiction to what we had assumed in the morning, what we had announced in the morning, and directly in contradiction of what the company was doing at that time which was venting radioactivityf into the atmos-phere without having told us, the Governor's Office,.the Licutenant Governor's Office or the Department of Env$ron-cental resources.
And when asked why they had not made that public at a press conference, an informal press conference, that officials of the company held around, late in the morning on Wednesday, that they were, indeed, venting radio-activity without telling anybody, their answer was, nobody asked.
And it was that -- you can't put all your eggs in that backet.
In a situation like that you have to rely on information that is candid.
One of the problens, and I think that one of the things this Committee, I hope, vill look into as far an emergency preparedness plans are concerned, was that in any incident like this that occurred, the company as a matter of NRC regulation and emergency management plan has a role in detection of what occurs off site.
When this happens they notify us, which they did.
y
58 Then they send out teama dounuind to test the radioactivity off site.
They also requested from us a police helicopter to detect in the air, which they did.
But I thinh therc also has to be independent monitoring by the state, which ue ucre not equipped to do to the extent 1/nich we ought to be equipped to do.
And per-haps by the federal government if there are some IEC officials on site.
We immediately put into the field all our people to look over the shoulders of Metropolitan Edison and to use what limited monitoring devices they had.
Also to nahe sure and requested that the imC people from the King of 4
Prussia cane in with their non,__oring devices and they car.e
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in here about ten, and called in our oun to uork for us, the Departaent of Energy special energency team, who does special caergency nonitoring.
So ve had information.
We had more infornation to rake decisionson that Wednesday and Thursday than just the company itself.
But when you are listening to a lot of information coming at you very quickly, you have to make decisions on how c:ch reliability to put on what sources. And I think those conflicting statements that Imentionedtoyoucarlierk N
that came early in the day froa Metropolitan Edison toch them out of the race, in our cinds, as somebody we could
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rea11y depend on for reliante infers:aeten.
Q At that time when the utility failed to notify the state, when they were venting, do you know if they had notified.the NRC7 A
No, I do not, no, I do not.
I Q
Do you have any reason to believe that they r.ay have?
A No, I don't.
I have no reason to believe they nay have.
CHAIRMAN WRIGHT:
Representative O'Brien.
PIPRESEUTATIVE O'BRIEN:
Governor, to get the record straight, I am not trying to embarrass you, I think coming in and taking over the Energy Council and Civ4.1 s
Defense and walking right in on something like this, I felt sorry for you.
I believe that some mistakes were made and come, I would like to have you come bach at a futareT meet-ing, I know you are eight for time.
BY REPRESENTATIVE O'BRIEN:
Q But on Page 4 you said ue al1 owe a great deal of appreciation to Dick Thornburgh who was calm and thoughtful in every decision.
Do you fec1 what you know now and the
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people that he was dealing with did not have the technology, Lm
60 did not know the technology and did not know radiation, that you and the, Governor would be calm again under those conditions?
A Yes, I think so.
We had people who knew the technology.
We had people who knew the state of the art of knowledge of radiation.
I think that if we had --
Q Can you give us, I don't want to interrupt you, can you tell us who, in your opinion, knew the technology, knew radiation or could determine when the radiation was going to leak?
A I think that uns -- the people who. knew that
]s vere our own DER officials, Bill Dornsife, to be specific, uho was part of the Bureau of Radiation Protection and is very knowledgeable on nuclear engineering.
The inspectors and investigators from the URC, who were on site.
The Department of Energy representative, who the DER called in, and from the health consequences, not only our own Department of Health, but our consultant we called in from Pittsburgh, Dr. Neil Wald, who is a very fine expert in the area of what the effects are of radiation on health, what health consequences there are.
I doa't know if there is one nuclear
)
expert in the world cupreme above all others.
And I have lived through enough cmergencies in my life to know that any g
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61 Nj emergency, no matter who you hace aboard, when the onrush of events occurs in the beginn:.ng you always get confusion and conflicting infornation.
So, yes, I think the Governor would have nain-tained his cool.. I continue to this day to feel that he made the right decisions.
I think we have -- you never have perfect, sources of perfect knowledge.
But I think that based on the people that we had at the time, I think we had the grounds for making reasonable decisions.
Q I an not saying that the Governor did not make his decisions.
My point is the Governor testified that in his opinion he felt like I felt that they did not have the
,)
knowledge.
Ilumber one, I an for nuclear.
I think we have to go that way if it is safe and I am conviened that 11EC made many mistakes.
And it scares me to think that some of TRC vas there and we can't get information today and they were mak;;tg decisions for you and the Governor.
Liou your testinony is different than the Governor.
The Governor stated in his testinony he felt they did not have j
the technology and did not know.
A I dca't think he had the level of! advice that I think we would have hoped for.
But I think he had the icvel of advice early on to inahe the decisions that were n
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made.
Q Can you give the Conmittee the names of the people you feel are the experts no ve can call them in.
A Certainly.
LT. GOVERHOR SCRANTON:
Certainly.
- 12. Chair-man, at the moment I do have an appointment.
I raust leave.
But I would like to say that if it is all right with this Committee, I uould also like to say that if there are any more specific questions that you would like,to ask me or my office, if they could be sent to me in written forn, I would be more than happy to recpond.
CilAIPJLW URIGHT:
Uc thank you for appearing a
f with us.
We ask that you give our regards to your uife.
LT. GOVERNOR SCRANTON:
Thank you, I!r. Chairman.
CHAIR?.AN URIC 11T:
%iy apologics for not being able to get to all the members who vanced to ask questions.
I suggest w2 he back here one o'c1cch this afternoon and you will have chance to ask questions of other witnesses.
Tbank you.
(Uhereupon the hearing was recessed at 12:10 P.!!.)
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I hereby certify thst the proceedings and evi-dence taken by me beofre the House Select Cotamittee -
Three Mile Island are fully and accurately indicated in my notes and that this is a true and correct transcript of same.
AllLI[ i f)t hyfglitgg
/
Dorothy M. Malone Registered Professional Reporter 135 S. Landis St.
Hurnelstoun, Penna.
17036
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J AMES L. WRIGHT. JR.
- Room 252 MtMBE4 HOUSE OF REPRest NT ATIvte COMMONWT ALTH OF PENNSV LV A NI A For your information.
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