ML16209A022
| ML16209A022 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Oyster Creek |
| Issue date: | 05/26/2016 |
| From: | Kieta Mckenzie Division Reactor Projects I |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NRC-2464 | |
| Download: ML16209A022 (114) | |
Text
ML16209A022 Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
Oyster Creek 2016 Annual Assessment Meeting Docket Number: (n/a)
Location: Manahawkin, New Jersey Date: Thursday, May 26, 2016
- Corrections noted in brackets to the right of original text.
- Work Order No.: NRC-2464 Pages 1-111 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
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OYSTER CREEK 2016 ANNUAL ASSESSMENT MEETING
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THURSDAY, MAY 26, 2016
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The meeting was convened in the Holiday Inn Manahawkin, 151 Route 72 West, Manahawkin, New Jersey, at 6:00 p.m., Brett Klukan, Facilitator, presiding.
PRESENT:
BRETT KLUKAN, Regional Counsel, Region I SILAS KENNEDY, Branch Chief, Division of Reactor Projects AMAR PATEL, Senior Resident Inspector, Oyster Creek Nuclear Generating Station DAVID PELTON, Deputy Director, Division of Reactor Projects TED SMITH, Project Manager, Reactor Decommissioning Branch, Office of Nuclear Material Safety and Safeguards BRETT TITUS, Senior Project Manager, Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 (6:00 p.m.)
3 MR. KLUKAN: Good morning, everyone.
4 This evening and 2016, Oyster Creek Generating 5 Station Annual assessment meeting.
6 My name is Brett Klukan. Normally, by 7 day, I'm the general counsel for Region I of the NRC.
8 Today, however, I'll be serving as the facilitator of 9 the meeting.
10 Now the first thing I'd like to note is 11 that at the registration table there are two sign-up 12 lists for public speakers. One list is for those who 13 would like to voice concerns or raise questions 14 critical to operations at Oyster Creek. The second 15 is for those who either plan to speak as for the plant 16 or who otherwise take no position.
17 If you'd like to speak this evening, if 18 you've not already done so, please step over to the 19 registration table and put your name on one of those 20 lists. And then I'll collect them while the NRC is 21 giving their opening presentation. And that will 22 define our speaker order for this evening.
23 Based on my last count, or I guess, 24 there's probably about six or seven people on that 25 list. So it won't matter as much in terms of timing, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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3 1 but I'll still use it to determine the order in which 2 I'll call people. But we'll likely have time for 3 potentially a second round of questions, depending 4 upon how things go.
5 And as we get into that stage I'll just 6 ask people to raise their hands. But we'll play that 7 by ear as we move on to that stage.
8 Okay, I ask that we keep the area and the 9 front row clear. If something you'd like to present, 10 we're going to be friends today. If there's 11 something you want to present to the NRC staff on the 12 stage just hand it to me and I'll come around and get 13 it from you.
14 And then, right now, I'm going to limit 15 the public or the speaking time to, I'm going to say, 16 four minutes per speaker. And, again, with that, 17 based on the number of speakers we have other there, 18 even including (inaudible) feedback, there should be 19 some additional time, potentially, built into that 20 before we come to our 8 o'clock end time. So we'll 21 see how that goes.
22 But right now, try to limit -- please 23 limit your speaking time when you're called to speak 24 to four minutes.
25 And what I'll do is I'll hold up cards to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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4 1 assist. So when you have one minute left you'll see 2 a yellow card held up. And then when it's time --
3 this is three on it because that's normally what I 4 use, but tonight it's four. So pretend that's a 5 four.
6 When you see the four minute mark, that 7 means it's time to wrap it up and then let the NRC 8 address your questions.
9 Okay. All right, in response to the 10 comments received at last year's meeting, we are 11 recording this meeting and a transcript is being, 12 will be created. So what's important about that is 13 that it's both the audio and the transcript will 14 posted on the NRC Web site where the meeting notice 15 is located.
16 So in light of that, I would ask that 17 when it's your turn to speak you do two things --
18 make sure you're speaking into the microphone which 19 is right over there. If you cannot go to the 20 microphone or you would need assistance please let me 21 know or raise your hand and I'll bring the microphone 22 to you.
23 And then when you do begin speaking, 24 please state your name just so, for the transcription 25 -- not sure, transcriptionist? Never had to actually NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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5 1 use that word before, but the person creating the 2 transcript, just to facilitate them in doing that.
3 Basic ground rules, I recognize that many 4 of you may have strongly (inaudible) regarding the 5 plans. Nonetheless, I ask that you please be here 6 in civil decorum, that you respect each other, that 7 you do not interrupt each other while other people 8 are speaking and whatnot.
9 You have every right to disagree with 10 what others may say here tonight. You -- or you have 11 every right to voice that disagreement when it's your 12 turn to speak. Again, I just ask you or I implore 13 you, please be civil with each other.
14 Last year's meeting I thought was great 15 in that respect, and I expect the same this year.
16 So, again, thank you, again, for those of you who 17 were here last year, for that meeting and for keeping 18 that level of civil decorum.
19 If you -- threatening statements or 20 gestures, under no circumstances, will be tolerated.
21 If you feel that you've been threatened, please come 22 to me so we can take immediate action.
23 And then just a few minor housekeeping 24 matters before we begin. The bathrooms are -- you 25 go out this hallway and around the corner. They're NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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6 1 by the lobby. The exits are just, you know, through 2 the doors.
3 Cameras or video recording equipment are 4 permitted. I would ask that you be judicious with 5 flash, at all. And then please silence your cell 6 phones. I'm not asking you to turn them off, just 7 silence them, especially since we will be recording 8 the meeting.
9 Now at this point, are there any elected 10 officials who would like, or representatives thereof, 11 who would like to be recognized at this time? I 12 didn't see any on the list but I wanted to make sure.
13 Okay, great.
14 So now let me introduce the NRC staff.
15 Seated in the middle there is Dave Pelton. Dave is 16 the Deputy Director for the Division of Reactive 17 Projects in Division I. He began his NRC career in 18 1997 as a resident inspector for Region III.
19 His previous assignments include three 20 branch chief positions in the Office of Nuclear 21 Reactor Regulation, the Division of License Renewal, 22 the Division of Policy Ruling and the Division of 23 Operating Reactor Renewal.
24 He was the recipient of the NRC's 25 Meritorious Service Award. Prior to going to the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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7 1 NRC, Dave spent ten years working as a nuclear 2 engineer at Portsmouth's Naval Shipyard. He 3 received his Bachelor of Science degree in mechanical 4 engineering from Pennsylvania State University.
5 Seated beside him is Silas Kennedy.
6 Silas Kennedy is the Chief of the Division -- yes, 7 he's the branch chief of the Division of Reactor 8 Projects, Branch 6, in Region I.
9 Mr. Kennedy joined the U.S. Nuclear 10 Regulatory Commission in 2001 as a reactor inspector.
11 He's held several positions including project 12 engineer, resident inspector at Millstone and is 13 senior resident inspector at Calvert Cliffs.
14 Prior to joining the NRC, Mr. Kennedy 15 worked briefly for Agari (phonetic)Systems as a 16 process engineer and served as a nuclear-trained 17 officer in the U.S. Navy.
18 Mr. Kennedy earned a bachelor's degree in 19 electrical engineering from the University of South 20 Carolina and a master's of science administration 21 from the Central Michigan University.
22 We have, seated closest to me, is Amar 23 Patel. Amar Patel is the senior resident inspector 24 at Oyster Creek. He has been in that position since 25 February of 2015 and has been at Oyster Creek since NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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8 1 2012 as a resident inspector.
2 He joined the NRC in 2002 as a reactor 3 engineer in Region I. Prior to his current position 4 he served as a resident inspector at Hope Creek, as 5 a reactor inspector in ERS engineering Branch 2 and 6 as a project engineer in ERP Branch 5.
7 Amar earned a bachelor's degree in 8 electrical engineering as well as a master's degree 9 in engineering management from Drexel University.
10 Seated the furthest from me is Ted Smith.
11 Mr. Theodore Smith is a project manager in Reactor 12 Decommissioning Branch in the Office of Nuclear 13 Material Safety and Safeguards.
14 Mr. Smith joined the NRC in 1999 as an 15 environmental engineer. He has held several 16 positions including project engineer in the special 17 projects branch and in the reactor decommissioning 18 branch.
19 Prior to joining the NRC, Mr. Smith 20 worked briefly for SAIC at BDM as an engineer 21 supporting the Department of Energy in its 22 Environmental Management Office and served as a 23 nuclear-trained naval officer at naval reactors.
24 He earned his bachelor's degree in 25 electrical engineering an a minor -- with a minor in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 1 mathematics from the University of Missouri Columbia 2 and a master of environmental engineering and 3 environmental management from Johns Hopkins 4 University.
5 Finally, not on the list, sitting here is 6 Brett Titus. Mr. Titus joined the NRC in 2007 and 7 is currently a senior project manager in Japan's 8 Lessons Learned Division in the Office of Nuclear 9 Reactor Regulation.
10 He has been at the JLD since its formation 11 in September of 2015 and has held several positions 12 including active branch chief of a containment and 13 balance of a plant branch and senior reactor systems 14 engineer.
15 Before the formation of the JLD Mr. Titus 16 was the technical assistant to the Director of the 17 Commission of Safety Systems in NOR[NRO] and a civil 18 engineer at the mechanical civil branch in the 19 Division of Engineering.
20 Prior to his employment with the NRC, Mr.
21 Smith was a structural design engineer at Sequoyah 22 Nuclear Power Plant for five years.
23 Now with that, I will turn it over to 24 Dave Pelton for the NRC's presentation. Thank you.
25 MR. PELTON: Thank you, Brett. My NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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10 1 remarks will be brief. You know, we, over the years, 2 have tried to tailor these meetings to try to make 3 sure that we were responsive to the people in the 4 community around the facilities that we regulate.
5 And, to that point, you'll notice that 6 our meeting tonight was designated a Category 3 7 meeting, that meaning that it provides for a lot of 8 interface for you, the public, to ask questions and 9 to establish a dialogue with us and hopefully you'll 10 find our answers to be complete and answer your 11 questions.
12 So the other point I want to make is that 13 kind of our over-arching goal here is to be able to 14 relate the overall performance of Oyster Creek 15 through 2015. But, that being said, you just heard 16 from Brett, that we brought with us a number of 17 experts who can address a lot of the questions you 18 may have that concerns the folks in this area. And 19 I think that they're more than well-prepared to be 20 able to answer your questions.
21 So, with that, I'll turn it over to Silas 22 Kennedy.
23 MR. KENNEDY: Thanks, Dave. Dave, for 24 2015, it's operated Oyster Creek safely and in a 25 manner that observed the public health and safety and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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11 1 protected the environment. Oyster Creek is currently 2 in the (inaudible) response project for the action 3 matrix for having no green findings and for having 4 all greens on performance indicators.
5 You see at the very bottom, where is says, 6 action matrix, if you note that findings and 7 violations increased in significance from green, 8 white, yellow, red. And in the next response column, 9 the lowest level of response to (inaudible) measures.
10 Now Oyster Creek, through, however, they 11 do have a preliminary place finding associated with 12 a diesel generator failure in January of this year 13 led to a cooling leak. If this issue is finalized 14 as white then they will be moving over to the nexus 15 -- to the regulatory response column.
16 Okay, for 2015 for extension activities 17 at Oyster Creek, we performed over 6,145 hours0.00168 days <br />0.0403 hours <br />2.397487e-4 weeks <br />5.51725e-5 months <br /> of 18 specialist and specialty activities. This includes 19 efforts by two resident inspectors, a senior resident 20 inspector and also (inaudible).
21 They are pre-assigned to the site. They 22 go up in the area. So, as you know, they are very 23 concerned about, also, about the safety of the plant.
24 They have open access to all areas of the plant 24 25 hours2.893519e-4 days <br />0.00694 hours <br />4.133598e-5 weeks <br />9.5125e-6 months <br /> a day, seven days a week.
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12 1 In addition to the resident inspector 2 activities there were valid inspections led by 3 regionally-based inspectors out of King of Prussia, 4 Pennsylvania.
5 And of the available inspection there was 6 one major team inspection which was a modification 7 inspection. And this inspection monitors the 8 effectiveness of changes made to plant equipment.
9 The NRC also conducted several follow-up 10 inspections or we call them supplemental inspections, 11 for several great room tactic issues. We performed 12 a Inspection Procedure 95001 for a white performance 13 indicator for uncased RAMs.
14 We performed a Inspection Procedure 95001 15 for a white finding associated with fusionary affairs 16 into a Fench-out (phonetic) issue. And we also, last 17 year, performed a 95002 for a yellow finding flash 18 code design issue for a failure of two electro-19 magnetic readouts.
20 And for these three sections, all of the 21 objectives of those procedures were met. So the 22 results of our inspections for 6,145 hours of 23 inspection at Oyster Creek, they are all green 24 performance indicators for 2015 and all the findings, 25 all ten findings are green.
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13 1 And that gives you though some of the 2 other inspections on the previous, one of the previous 3 slides. This slide just gives you the bale number.
4 So you're going to the (inaudible) of that (inaudible) 5 inspections, you can look up the bale number and find 6 out a little more details about those inspection 7 activities.
8 And now I'm going to turn it over to Amar 9 Patel, the senior resident inspector.
10 MR. PATEL: Thank you, Silas. Now for 11 the rest of, the remainder of 2016, we will be 12 continuing our routine resident inspections which 13 will continue, providing day-to-day monitoring of 14 plant operations. There will also be a 15 component design for recent inspection and that will 16 evaluate the ability of components to meet the 17 specified functions. And they will also complete a 18 project identification resolution inspection, and 19 that's to evaluate the effectiveness of Oyster 20 Creek's current production program which identifies 21 the correct problem.
22 And, like Silas mentioned, if finalized 23 as white, a supplemental inspection will be conducted 24 to assess Exelon's corrective actions for a 25 preliminary white finding regarding the number one NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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14 1 EBG neo-generator, cooling water hose leak which 2 occurred January 4th of this year during a 3 surveillance test.
4 But the issue is documented in the first 5 quarter of this year's report which was issued in May 6 12th of 2016. And that completes our presentation.
7 I'll turn it over to Brett for the question and answer 8 period.
9 MR. KLUKAN: All right, thank you. I 10 would note, for those of you who are planning to look 11 up those MO[ML] numbers, just Google them. Type the 12 MO[ML] numbers into Google and no body. And, say, 13 this is an interesting (inaudible). This is what we 14 actually do.
15 Just put the MO[ML] number into Google 16 and it'll pop up. It's easier than trying to use our 17 own internal system if you're looking that stuff up.
18 Okay, on to the public comments -- or 19 questions. So right now I have five speakers order 20 and (inaudible) up to five minutes a piece, okay, so 21 as a start. We'll go from there.
22 So first up -- and since you each, each 23 of the five speakers has a different first name, I'm 24 just going to do first names, if that's acceptable.
25 And then, Silas, we'll use your last name, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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15 1 essentially, because I have a really bad habit of 2 doing that.
3 So first up will be Toni. She'll be 4 followed by Janet (phonetic) and then Paula 5 (phonetic). And then, so again, Toni's first, Janet 6 second and then Paula. If you please go to the aisle 7 microphone over there, just so your comments and 8 questions are captured in the transcript.
9 And, again, we're giving everybody about 10 five minutes.
11 TONI GRANATO: Okay. Hello, everyone.
12 My name is Toni Granato, and my work is at the New 13 Jersey Sierra Club. We have over 20,000 members and 14 supporters throughout the state. We're a non-profit 15 environmental organization who, for many decades, has 16 been opposed to the nuclear power plant at Oyster 17 Creek.
18 I'm also from Ocean County. I've lived 19 in Toms River for the past 25 years, except for the 20 years I was in grad school and undergrad.
21 So I have three questions. Should I ask 22 them all and then sit down?
23 MR. KLUKAN: Let -- I mean, we have time, 24 so let's play it by ear. Ask your questions and then 25 we'll go from there, so.
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16 1 TONI GRANATO: Okay, I'll do one at a 2 time.
3 MR. KLUKAN: All right, sounds good.
4 TONI GRANATO: My first question is, I 5 think on Page 2 of the presentation, there was mention 6 that there was going to be a safety performance 7 finalized. So my question is when will the white 8 safety performance be finalized?
9 MR. KENNEDY: Okay, so sort of -- it 10 should be within the next couple of months, spring 11 or just sort of round figures there. So it's -- we 12 should see it, you'll see it fairly soon.
13 TONI GRANATO: What goes into finalizing 14 that?
15 MR. KENNEDY: So when the inspection 16 report went out on May 12th, they had what we call a 17 choice letter. A choice letter gives the plant 18 owners the opportunity to either respond to the 19 apparent finding in writing. They can come in for a 20 mandatory conference or they can accept the finding 21 as is.
22 If they accept the finding as is, so 23 therefore, we go ahead and finalize it. So we should 24 see the report come out within a very short order.
25 It'll be a (inaudible) it'll come out.
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17 1 TONI GRANATO: So what does it mean for 2 Oyster Creek, so to speak, to accept it? What -- can 3 you elaborate on that?
4 MR. KENNEDY: Their particular finding 5 had a, performed -- the efficiency. It was with 6 inadequate maintenance precision, right. And so they 7 agreed that, yes, the precision was inadequate. We 8 should have a (inaudible) in our maintenance program 9 guidance to replace that hose at the right 10 periodicity.
11 The hose was not replaced. They should 12 have it replaced every 12 years. They failed at 22 13 years, so they agreed that that was the case. So 14 they accept the finding as it was written in the 15 report.
16 And so, therefore, we can move ahead with 17 finalizing the finding.
18 TONI GRANATO: So in that report, just 19 to clear that, there was an equipment failure?
20 MR. KENNEDY: Yes, the issue was --
21 correct me if I'm wrong here, but the issue was on 22 January 4th, they were doing a surveillance test with 23 the Number 1 diesel generator. Part-way through the 24 test, like early on, like 30, 40 minutes into the 25 test, they had a coolant bleed.
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18 1 The coolant extruded the diesel. It was 2 Phase (inaudible) white. And with that bleed, they 3 had to shut it down. They actually, it shut down 4 automatically because of low pressure for the 5 cylinder that cools the diesel.
6 MR. KLUKAN[PATEL]: You know what, let 7 me explain it a little bit more. So on January 4th 8 they do a test. They do a test every two weeks 9 according to their technical specification which is 10 a requirement, that they have to test the (inaudible) 11 and generators every two weeks.
12 Now as far as the closed loop cooling 13 system that's in there, that cools the engine manifold 14 of the diesel generator. And it's then cooled by 15 air. So it's a radiator, kind of like your car.
16 Now the cylinders itself leaked. So as 17 a result, the diesel generator automatically shuts 18 down because of that, because you don't want it 19 overheating.
20 So now based on that, we reviewed their 21 corrective actions. Now, their corrective actions, 22 one, so they could, have to go in and go into a 23 mitigating condition of the operation. They have to 24 go in at 70 LCO because it's inoperable and then they 25 have to fix the issue within seven days.
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19 1 And that's exactly what they did, is they 2 fixed it within seven days. Then for their 3 corrective action program, which is also a 4 requirement that they have to, you know, (inaudible) 5 requirements, 10 CFR (inaudible).
6 And they have to complete a corrective 7 action. And they have to provide a root cause of an 8 issue. And for our process, we have to review that 9 root cause and we also do our independent assessment 10 of the processes and procedures and then what 11 happened, why did it occur?
12 So, like Silas mentioned, it was a 13 maintenance procedure that should have replaced the 14 hose every 12 years, which it did. So that's the 15 reason why it failed. It was longer. It was an age-16 dependent issue. And it was also temperature-17 dependent.
18 So it's been there for 22 years. It 19 should have been replaced at 12 years, and it wasn't.
20 And that's why we have our process for this position 21 and issues such as that. Now we agree that this 22 position as a -- the green issues are very low 23 significant. A white issue is a low significant.
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20 1 function. During that time they actually tested it.
2 In fact, within that 24-hour period of that failure 3 that came with the report. And then further process, 4 you know, we issued a report. We, that's exactly 5 what we did, we followed up.
6 And then afterwards we had to do a 95001 7 inspection which assesses their corrective actions 8 for that finding. And also we look at their static 9 condition. What other issues out there, you know, 10 that's out there that has issues similar to this hose 11 one.
12 So that's kind of the process, okay, of 13 what we do.
14 TONI GRANATO: Great. Thank you. So 15 the second part of my question that I just asked was, 16 so there was that process happened after the equipment 17 failure, but wasn't there also in the May 12th report 18 a violation from two of the inspectors at the plant?
19 MR. KLUKAN: Wait, I'm sorry. Say that 20 again?
21 TONI GRANATO: In the May 12th report it 22 did list that two inspectors received violations.
23 MR. KLUKAN[PATEL]: Well, we don't 24 receive a -- it's Exelon that received the violation.
25 TONI GRANATO: No, not -- yes, not the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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21 1 NRC inspector but the Oyster Creek employees, for 2 lack of a better word.
3 MR. KLUKAN[PATEL]: Are you talking about 4 the other two findings that are in the report?
5 TONI GRANATO: Yes. Yes.
6 MR. KLUKAN[PATEL]: Okay, well there is 7 one. There was another issue with the control rod 8 drive manifest. And that was the fact that there 9 was a slow -- there was a slow standing time for it.
10 That means they have to stand the rod.
11 So in order to shut down the reactor, 12 they have to insert control. And the tech specs, 13 they have a certain timing they afford those control 14 rooms. And it was slower than what it should have 15 been. And that's the reason why we gave the violation 16 for that.
17 There was another issue when it came to 18 the refuel and outage of 2014 where there was an issue 19 with procedures, but that was the individual on the 20 refuel.
21 TONI GRANATO: So altogether there's 22 three incidents in that report?
23 MR. KLUKAN[PATEL]: That's right.
24 TONI GRANATO: Okay. One thing that I 25 thought was missing from the presentation which I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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22 1 would want to know as part of an answer is is there 2 a way that you can describe for me kind of with one 3 of your answers with the script what each of the 4 indicators means? So what does green, white, red, 5 yellow -- what to they all mean?
6 And then, if possible, could you give an 7 example of each of those things? So, for example, 8 what we're talking about now, it's possibly a white 9 indicator, but what would be examples of each?
10 MR. KLUKAN[PATEL]: Okay, so -- give me, 11 yes. (Inaudible) anybody to. But if you're talking 12 about what does it mean with a green issue, right.
13 So if a green issues that I see remains an OIC 14 response. So you are normal routine inspections, you 15 know resident inspectors, you know, we routinely 16 inspect the plant, with the plant.
17 And then we have our normal regional 18 inspectors that come for specialized inspections.
19 like I mentioned, CBI modifications. And if it's a 20 white issue then we go ahead and do a (inaudible) 21 response. And in that we do that 95001, like I 22 mentioned before.
23 And then if further, if they have -- I 24 don't know exactly what the rest of the action matrix 25 says for beyond that, specifically. If it's greater NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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23 1 than 2, white finding, then they have to go to another 2 column.
3 And then they have to do a 95002 4 inspection. And that's the, that's more inspections.
5 We have more inspectors coming onsite. And then, 6 Column 4, same thing. There's more inspections, and 7 so on. And so it's 95003.
8 TONI GRANATO: So how would --
9 MR. KLUKAN[PATEL]: So it just goes in 10 level of --
11 TONI GRANATO: How long does the 12 indicator last?
13 MR. KLUKAN[PATEL]: Well, until they 14 clear the finding, meaning that we have to go in there 15 after the inspection and then the last four quarters 16 from the start of the quarter that it was identified.
17 TONI GRANATO: So the last four quarters?
18 MR. KENNEDY: Right, four quarters, a 19 miss, they have not cleared these -- boy, some of the 20 other inspections, and if that inspection is not 21 performed until after the four quarters, it lasts 22 until that -- something in the inspection gets 23 performed.
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24 1 I'm going to give you some examples of, say, what the 2 green, white, yellow, red.
3 So that example of a green already in the 4 report got sent to the white. A sample of yellow is 5 the EMRV issue, the electro-magnetic relief valve 6 issue here. And you can go to -- I have a sufficient 7 part up there for you. You can go to that report.
8 And there's more about the yellow issue.
9 And an example of a red issue, there's a 10 couple red issues out there based there -- and there's 11 one right with ADOC (phonetic). So if you go to our 12 Web site you'll see one connected with the red issue 13 and can report on that finding, on getting that 14 different issue.
15 TONI GRANATO: So ANL is a plant?
16 MR. KENNEDY: It is. It's a Bartni 17 (phonetic) SOSS Nuclear I. Correct? Yes. So it 18 goes in the report. You can -- it goes to the Web 19 site and you click on activation. First I'll show 20 you how to get there. I mean, it's, you can read 21 more about the red finding.
22 TONI GRANATO: And so will -- before my 23 attack, but Three Mile Island, did that have some 24 indicator under than NRC? Would that --
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25 1 oversight process equipment took place. The draft 2 oversight process was put in place around 1999 or 3 2000. And TMI, that happened back in 1979. So that 4 was before we categorized findings in this manner.
5 TONI GRANATO: So you couldn't tell me 6 if these categories were placed then --
7 MR. KENNEDY: That's not something that 8 we looked at with NRC where were the, you know --
9 TONI GRANATO: Okay. I'm just wondered 10 because a commone --
11 MR. KENNEDY: Right.
12 TONI GRANATO: -- example. How many 13 unplanned shut-downs were there in 2015?
14 MR. KENNEDY: There was just one 15 unplanned shut-down in 2015. That was in May of late 16 last year.
17 TONI GRANATO: How many were there in --
18 MR. KENNEDY: There was two. There was 19 two.
20 TONI GRANATO: -- 2004?
21 MR. KENNEDY: No, there was four per 22 7,000 hours0 days <br />0 hours <br />0 weeks <br />0 months <br />, right, so if you do from the start of 23 the first RAM at 2014, in the middle of 2014, and 24 then 7,000 hours0 days <br />0 hours <br />0 weeks <br />0 months <br /> from that, you know, if there's four 25 strands[scrams], then that counts as a white PL.
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26 1 So for 2015 it's two strands[scrams] in 2 2015, which is why we had to go to a 95001 for that.
3 TONI GRANATO: So in 2014 how many were 4 there?
5 MR. KENNEDY: Two.
6 TONI GRANATO: 2013?
7 MR. KENNEDY: It probably was like, you 8 know, there probably was like three late follows of, 9 yes, 2013.
10 TONI GRANATO: So that's four unplanned 11 strands[scrams] in two years, so October 2013 to July 12 of '14 (inaudible).
13 MR. KENNEDY: Yes, that's correct.
14 MR. KLUKAN: Could someone just repeat 15 that with a microphone?
16 MR. KENNEDY: So this is a look back at 17 2013. The fall of 2013 there were three -- okay, 18 strands[scrams]. And then a fourth one occurred in 19 July of 2014. That gave us four strands that put 20 them into a white (inaudible) strands.
21 MR. PELTON: So just so you caught that, 22 when we assess the performance of the facility, we 23 look at -- there's primarily two aspects. The 24 findings that you heard discussed here and 25 performance indicators which are -- there are NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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27 1 criteria that, in this case, we were talking quite a 2 bit about numbers of unplanned strands.
3 So that's just one example of a 4 performance indicator. Those also have their own 5 green, white, yellow, red kind of characterization 6 based on the increasing red -- there's some risk 7 informed thresholds that we establish.
8 And in the same way, the green, white, 9 yellow, red for findings is also somewhat of a risk 10 informed process. So when you see the color for a 11 green, for example, you can understand immediately 12 that this is an issue of very low safety significance.
13 Green doesn't mean good but it means very low safety 14 significance for a finding.
15 So the color gives you kind of an 16 immediate indication of what was the risk 17 perspectives on that issue. And it just helps to put 18 it in perspective of kind of what does it really mean 19 from a, for say, just as a FYI.
20 TONI GRANATO: I'd like to hear, I know 21 because I'm wondering, maybe others are, so what is 22 the risk performance in a nutshell? Would you be 23 able to provide just an indicator of how you're doing 24 the risk performance? For example --
25 MR. PELTON: Well, there's --
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28 1 TONI GRANATO: I'm sorry. But, for 2 example, how do you measure risk based on these 3 indicators?
4 MR. KENNEDY: So the green -- so for --
5 start with examples. So for the greens may not be a 6 good example, but in order for the performance 7 indicator to go to white for unplanned strands or 8 unplanned shut-downs, they would have to have at least 9 four of those within like a 7,000 critical hours.
10 Now for -- now if there was a number of 11 strands that were aborted, there was like a certain 12 threshold, risk threshold, that'll put you to a lower 13 category.
14 MR. PELTON: So what's this in plain 15 language? So we have senior reactor analysts in our 16 agency who are experts with, you know, our process 17 being risk informed, but performance-based.
18 So they're experts at taking the risk 19 information and, for performance indicators, 20 establish these thresholds years ago, as part of our 21 program. And those are defined in our data and all 22 available documents of where those thresholds are.
23 With the findings, they're evaluated a 24 bit differently. We have what we call a significance 25 determination process that goes hand-in-hand with our NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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29 1 inspection program. And, again, you say experts in 2 risks.
3 And, frankly, I'll call our senior 4 resident inspectors and resident inspectors experts 5 with evaluating risks. We provide them with sets of 6 tools that they can use to evaluate the way the issues 7 at their site.
8 So as Amar was talking about this 9 emergency diesel generator issue, he was able to --
10 he and his resident inspector, were able to use the 11 tools to start to evaluate that from a risk 12 perspective in consultation with some of our regional 13 experts.
14 And the process isn't as easy as three, 15 four, five, it gets into, you know, more, frankly, 16 gets into more facts. It gets into more risk science.
17 But it is predictable. It is crucial. It's 18 available, all of the -- if you wanted to get, look 19 at our inspection procedure.
20 But that's the process where we inform 21 our decision making with risk.
22 TONI GRANAT[GRANATO]: Yes, that 23 definitely helped. And if there's anyone here, staff 24 at the NRC that could provide a really -- I'm just 25 looking for more information about the public safety NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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30 1 risks. And I'm sure you've had that, like you said, 2 have researched before. But if you could just 3 provide the link that would be great.
4 MR. KLUKAN: Yes, we'll give you that 5 afterwards.
6 TONI GRANATO: Okay.
7 MR. KLUKAN: Someone will -- yes.
8 TONI GRANATO: Thank you.
9 MR. KLUKAN: All right, thank you. All 10 right, so next up is Janet. And she'll be followed 11 by Paula and then Jeff.
12 JANET: Can we -- do you think I could 13 switch with Paul?
14 MR. KLUKAN: Again, why not?
15 JANET: I'll switch with Paul.
16 MR. KLUKAN: All right, so Paul is next.
17 JANET: I'll go next.
18 PAUL GUNTER: Okay, thank you. My name's 19 Paul Gunter. And I'm going to move this up. Can I 20 move this up a little bit?
21 MR. KLUKAN: Sure.
22 PAUL GUNTER: Right behind that pole?
23 It's easy for me to -- yes. Okay, my name's Paul 24 Gunter, and I am director of Reactor Oversight Project 25 in, for Beyond Nuclear. And we're a public interest NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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31 1 group in Takoma Park, Maryland.
2 And we've been following the risk review 3 issue for quite some time now. And 2015 was a 4 particularly interesting year for Oyster Creek in 5 that on, let's see, November 1, 2015 the U.S. Nuclear 6 Regulatory Commission issued approval for Oyster 7 Creek to, for an extension so comply with an order.
8 Okay, now I'm trying -- you know, I have 9 my idea of what an order is. But I'd like to ask, 10 how many of you are Armed Services, former Armed 11 Services?
12 Okay, so when you give an order in the 13 line of duty that affects safety and security, do you 14 get to -- trying to -- request an extension to comply 15 to an order from a superior?
16 I mean, is it even a question in your 17 basic training that you get to question a direct order 18 from your superiors?
19 MR. KENNEDY: You perform the order.
20 MR. GUNTER: I'm sorry?
21 MR. KENNEDY: You perform the order.
22 MR. GUNTER: Yes, right. That's my 23 understanding. I think that's the general 24 understanding of the public. So when we saw Exelon 25 Nuclear request in, let's see, the request was in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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32 1 June 2nd, 2014 to, for an extension to comply with 2 the direct order from the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory 3 Commission, okay, enforcement action 13109, the Japan 4 Lessons Learned directive where, we'll all familiar 5 with that.
6 In September 20 Oyster Creek was to have 7 installed a hardened containment fit as a direct 8 lesson from Fukushima Daiichi. Now Fukushima Daiichi 9 is identical to Oyster Creek. Minute 1 -- Minute 1 10 had essentially -- it was essentially identical, 11 okay. and now we're exploded, okay? And so did --
12 they had two other explosions there.
13 So we had a demonstration of a failure 14 rate for the General Electric ARC-1 boiling water 15 reactor three times and we had three container 16 failures. That's 100% failure rate. So we get an 17 order to fix that, okay?
18 And it goes down to the staff. And 19 Exelon says, well, we're not ready. I mean, they got 20 the order. We know they did. They responded. They 21 did consent to the order on June 26th, 2013, so their 22 consent is there, but it was with a reservation.
23 Now they could challenge the order at 24 some later date. Now, again, is that an error -- was 25 that error part of your basic training when it comes NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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33 1 to safety and security and the chain of command, that 2 you get to question the superior's order at some later 3 date or some later time? Or do you perform your 4 duty? MR. PELTON: This is not 5 military.
6 MR. GUNTER: Again, it is -- we're 7 looking at safe, issues of public safety and security, 8 and it is your duty to serve. It's clearly in your 9 mandate to serve and to serve the public interests.
10 And it wasn't so much that they decided 11 that, well, we don't think we're going to -- we don't 12 qualify were really the polite words. We can 13 challenge an order. That's them.
14 I'm talking about the U.S. Nuclear 15 Regulatory Commission, that when an order is issued 16 by the federal agency it is the public's expectation 17 that the order be complied and that, if not, that the 18 NRC take enforcement action. You failed your duty, 19 okay, clearly. And you failed it on the first order 20 that was to be complied with.
21 So Oyster Creek was the first plant in 22 line -- now I get a card, but we didn't get a previous 23 card for this. So if you'll let me, I'll be 24 courteous.
25 MR. KLUKAN: You're already passed five NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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34 1 minutes. I mean, so I'm just.
2 MR. GUNTER: I know, but -- thank you.
3 I will try to, you know, I'm trying to make a point 4 here though, that there was an order that affects 5 public health and safety, and Exelon replied, well, 6 we're not going to -- we can't comply with an order 7 because we've already made an agreement with the state 8 of New Jersey that we're going to shut down early, 9 okay?
10 We're going to shut -- we're not going to 11 2029. We're going to do December 31st, 2019. So 12 given it's June 2013, we're going to head three years 13 to comply now -- they didn't figure that was, it was 14 worth it. And so they got -- you gave them permission 15 to operate until December 31st, 2019 on this agreement 16 with the state of New Jersey.
17 But if you go to the NRC Web site and you 18 look up Oyster Creek, you will see that they, the 19 federal license goes to, still to April 2029, okay.
20 So when you gave your permission for them to ignore 21 your order and not even provide one public meeting to 22 these people or to the public or to our independent 23 experts, you know, that really, that nullifies your 24 credibility as a regulator.
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35 1 there will be more requests for waivers of your 2 orders. You've essentially undermined your own 3 credibility and your own chain of command. That is a 4 federal agency charged with our public health and 5 safety.
6 I think that's negligence of duty. And 7 moreover, and actually my question goes to Brett, 8 okay. I'd like Brett, since you were on the GLD and 9 helped form this order, it's my understanding that EA 10 13109 was explicit in that it was to provide severe 11 accident capability for this hardened containment 12 vent.
13 So I'd like the NRC -- and all of you are 14 welcome, but I'm sure Brett is qualified to answer 15 this -- I'd like to know where in the waiver for 16 extension to comply did the licensee satisfy the 17 severe accident capable response required in your 18 order because as I read all -- there's several RAIs, 19 requests for additional information, with responses 20 from Exelon.
21 None of the compensatory actions, as they 22 call it, qualify to meet severe accident conditions.
23 They were all pre-fuel damage. They were all 24 designed to prevent fuel from damage, okay. Now fair 25 enough, but the order was explicit that the response NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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36 1 from the licensee be severe accident capable.
2 So if you would, and if -- and I'll extend 3 the opportunity to reply in my next chance. But if 4 you would, just give us an overview of where in this 5 process, which the public did not get to participate 6 in, the Commission only reviewed this on May 17th. I 7 got a chance to speak to the Commission.
8 I can tell you the Commission, 9 Commissioner Baran was disappointed that the staff 10 had undermined a Commission order, essentially on 11 semantics, basically were his words -- you know, 12 semantics, which is disingenuous for upholding public 13 health and safety. Thank you.
14 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
15 MR. TITUS: My name is Brett Titus, and 16 I am a headquarters GLD representative. Thank you 17 for the opportunity to speak to you tonight. And I 18 hope that I can answer your question with a complete 19 and very transparent amount of information.
20 So one thing I would like to clarify is 21 that the EA 13109 order was broken into two pieces.
22 There was a Phase 1 to that order and a Phase 2 to 23 it. And the only portion which has been approved to 24 Oyster Creek to continue operations, so far, has been 25 for the Phase 1 portion.
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37 1 So the Phase 1 portion has to do with a 2 part of the hardened containment vent that releases 3 effluent from the wet well. If you're familiar with 4 boiling water reactors, they have a pressure 5 suppression containment and there's a place where 6 they have a pool of water, and that's where the 7 pressure will be relieved from in the event of an 8 accident.
9 So the portion of the wet well event that 10 is supposed to be severe accident capable, and as you 11 were speaking to, there are no radiological 12 provisions for the piping in general. It has very 13 specific temperature considerations and pressure 14 considerations.
15 And so when we approved the continued 16 operation with respect to Phase 1 requirements, that 17 all of the wet well experiences are saturated 18 conditions at the primary containment pressure limit.
19 And I know I'm getting very -- or I'm now into the 20 details, but the question was specific to severe 21 accident conditions.
22 So the portion of severe accident 23 conditions that deals with strategy for adding water 24 into the containment, which is a Phase 2 portion of 25 EA 13109, has not been approved yet. Exelon has NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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38 1 submitted information that we will review and make 2 our determination at that point in time.
3 But the Oyster Creek containment does 4 have a wet well vent they installed in accordance 5 with generic letter 8916. They installed or they 6 have committed to install some compensatory measures 7 which will allow the vent valves to be open with no 8 AC power, no DC power and the loss of normal 9 pneumatics.
10 So essentially the EA 13109 order was 11 designed to prevent a failure of containment that was 12 irrecoverable. So, you may remember, it was 13 originally a 13 -- not 13 -- yes, 12050 order. It 14 was before it became severe accident capable. That's 15 essentially what Phase 1 of the new 13109 order is.
16 So in order to ensure that they could 17 reliably open the vent to prevent an over-18 pressurization failure of the containment, Oyster 19 Creek has committed to install -- and this was a 20 portion of why we approved the Phase 1 relaxation to 21 reliably open that vent so that the containment would 22 not over-pressurize in the unlikely event of a severe 23 accident.
24 So the portions of their strategies that 25 have to do with radiation, excuse me, in order to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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39 1 operate the wet well event, there are two shield walls 2 behind the, with reach rods and valves that are 3 outside the containment, outside the reactor building 4 where they may have to send, in the unlikely event of 5 an accident, they would have to send operators.
6 But at this point in time, the 7 containment isolation valve upstream -- and I have 8 some diagrams if you want to look at that later one, 9 but upstream, that the radioactive effluent in the 10 event that this happens, would be further upstream 11 and the operators themselves would be shielded from 12 any of that radiation.
13 They would be able to perform their 14 manual actions and then from a remote operating 15 station be able to open this wet valve vent, utilizing 16 the compensatory actions of Oyster Creek, as has 17 committed to put in, such that the containment would 18 not result in an over-pressurization failure.
19 So there was a suite of requirements that 20 were associated with the order. And although Oyster 21 Creek has not, is not required to be, by the extension 22 come into compliance with every single one of the 23 requirements, there are very specific technical 24 attributes that we considered as the basis for our 25 extension, and we made them address them.
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40 1 Seismic considerations for the vent 2 piping itself. Combustible gas. Management and 3 strategies to deal with that, and especially reliable 4 opening and closing of the hardened containment vent.
5 I hope that provided more of a basis why 6 -- it's not like we completely ignored all the 7 requirements of the order. They did supplement it 8 with some specific information. And there was a 9 basis for the extension.
10 MR. KLUKAN: (Inaudible).
11 PAULA NASH: Yes, can you talk about --
12 when you talked about releasing the pressure --
13 MR. KLUKAN: If you could use the 14 microphone, yes. Yes, so I just for the record, 15 again, if you could go to the microphone when you ask 16 questions and just state your name, just so it's 17 easier for our transcriptionist.
18 PAULA NASH: Pardon me. In reference to 19 your talk, when you talk about releasing pressure to 20 avoid the containment, you know, you talk about 21 releasing radiation into the air, right?
22 MR. TITUS: Not necessarily.
23 PAULA NASH: No?
24 MR. TITUS: No necessarily.
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41 1 vents?
2 MR. TITUS: That is true that we do not 3 have filter vents. But the pressure is built up in 4 the containment and even before a severe accident 5 would occur. So, for example, there's an order for 6 mitigation strategies.
7 It's the 12049 order which instruct all 8 licensees in the United States to deal with an 9 extended loss of AC power and a loss of ultimate DC 10 and to come up with strategies. You may have heard 11 the term, flex, the flex strategies.
12 PAULA NASH: Yes, yes.
13 MR. TITUS: So even without severe 14 accident, even without the progression of an event to 15 a severe accident, the reactor is just discharging 16 into that suppression pool. And they vaporize the 17 water, making steam. And so that steam is actually 18 what's pressurizing the containment.
19 So in the event of mitigation strategies 20 where there's no radiation because the fuel hasn't 21 been damaged, but you'd still be pressurizing the 22 containment by turning that water into a vapor.
23 PAULA NASH: Okay. All right. I'll 24 have to take your word for it.
25 MR. TITUS: So not necessarily.
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42 1 PAULA NASH: Okay, you want a name?
2 Paula Nash (phonetic), Greater New Jersey. Okay, and 3 I just wanted to -- does anybody have any questions?
4 MR. TITUS: Do you want me to sit down?
5 PAULA NASH: No, I just wanted to keep 6 them for asking you questions.
7 MR. PELTON: Okay, this is Dave Pelton.
8 I just wanted to add, I appreciated Mr. Gunter's 9 discussion on the syntax terminology of order. And 10 certainly we apply orders under, to address the 11 significant, safety significance of the issues that 12 we believe need to be addressed.
13 And, but our law, both our regulations 14 and our process allows the licensee to request an 15 alternative to the appropriate (inaudible) suggested 16 by the, or directed the NRC. And it's only applied 17 or approved, as Brett described, after, you know, 18 rigorous confirmatory analysis, re-analysis and 19 consideration of all important aspects.
20 So as absolute as an order may be in the 21 military and with all due respect to folks concerned, 22 and it has its right place, order in the terminology 23 at the NRC, it carries with it also a very weighted 24 safety consideration that a licensee requests a 25 change to that order has to be given all due diligence NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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43 1 to make sure it's an appropriate action to take.
2 And, as Brett described, we had the 3 experts fully analyze, value and consider those 4 aspects before we approved that order or that waiver 5 order.
6 PAULA NASH: Okay, I just want to say 7 that as a side, a group of us from the League of Women 8 Voters, and we, at random, went down and met with 9 Commissioner Apostolakis when he was still there.
10 And we said what we we're concerned about is that, as 11 of now, people in the area are not protected from a 12 severe accident.
13 There's no protection in place for severe 14 accident mode. He and his staff had to agree with 15 us. They were, you know, it was, you know, absurd 16 we're not. And so all these different things you're 17 saying, you know, of releasing Exelon from having to 18 do things, we still know, bottom line, we are not 19 protected.
20 And no one seems to be all that excited 21 about it. We don't know where the layers of 22 protection we were promised from the nuclear industry 23 ever went to, but they've flown the coop. I just 24 want --
25 MR. PELTON: Do you want us to --
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44 1 PAULA NASH: Yes.
2 MR. PELTON: Do you want us to take a 3 crack at just kind of responding to your concerns on 4 your efforts or do you want to just continue?
5 PAULA NASH: Sure, sure, if you'd like 6 to.
7 MR. PELTON: Well just -- and, Brett, if 8 you'd like my -- but in general, you know, the NRC 9 oversees the licensee's operation of the facility to 10 make sure it's safe. You've heard some of us say 11 that severe accidents or accidents in general are 12 very unlikely.
13 And they're unlikely because of the 14 specific requirements established by the NRC, the 15 fact that we oversee the licensee's implementation of 16 those requirements and the day-to-day inspections 17 that we provide to assure that all necessary equipment 18 functions properly under normal conditions or 19 abnormal conditions will be done.
20 Certainly, the plant operators and the 21 equipment design is built such that they can, they 22 already look at and evaluate a variety of possible 23 accidents that could occur. They're described and 24 they're updated by NRC's analysis report. And the 25 equipment needed is included in their technical NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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45 1 specifications.
2 Beyond, and when you get into the severe 3 accident space, licensees, quite a while ago, 4 established sets of severe accident mitigating 5 strategies and mitigating guidelines. And that we 6 have, within our provisions, you know, transition 7 points that basically provide licensees with, there 8 are support their developmental procedures that will 9 ultimately get the electrical power as needed and the 10 water for keeping afloat --
11 PAULA NASH: Okay, I think you're talking 12 about the Flex stop and I'm familiar with that.
13 MR. PELTON: Well, that is going to be 14 where I go with --
15 PAULA NASH: Yes, I know. And there's 16 been many critics of the Flex system. And I'll tell 17 you why. Okay, now I want to just go to the green 18 findings which are considered, we've been told not to 19 worry about.
20 But each of them have been classified as 21 more than minor. And it's because, and all of them 22 say this, they upset the plant's stability and 23 challenge critical safety functions. That doesn't 24 sound too (inaudible)to me.
25 So what I'm -- and when you read through NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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46 1 -- and I have, I've read through all these problems, 2 I'm especially interested in the fire safety and 3 flooding problem because we're from the pine 4 (inaudible). The plant is actually applying this, 5 and we've had flooding here, lots of flooding.
6 And it turned out with, in terms of the 7 protection from that the green means the -- I'll not 8 go into it further, was not conducted to that, the 9 challenge for critical safety functions was covered.
10 So what I'm saying is when you talk about 11 Flex, when you talk about people running around doing 12 these things that you have to do because you don't 13 have a filtered vent and you don't have a severe 14 accident prevention, you rely on people who are having 15 trouble getting little, you know, wires fixed and 16 things that are cropping up on a daily basis that 17 they're not doing.
18 And in terms of what they say about the 19 green findings, that no way was the public ever, that 20 these were not really bad because the public was not 21 being -- in other words, nothing happened. Oh, it 22 didn't happen, all the things that could have happened 23 and that caused these violations.
24 Well, goody. But that's not the point.
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47 1 because it shouldn't have even been a chance that it 2 could happen. So when you talk about Flex and you 3 say we don't have to worry about severe accidents 4 because we've got Flex, you know, you all, we who 5 studied the nuclear industry for a while because we 6 live around here, know the problems in the industry.
7 We know the lack of institutional 8 knowledge. We know why the older point workers were 9 actually laid off at Exelon. And so -- and we know 10 it's hard to find people that have -- what about the 11 old white thing, white what do you call it, sighting, 12 when they kept replacing the underground cables to 13 the -- over and over again because they just didn't 14 know which ones to use.
15 Three times they replaced them. Three 16 times and it was because they didn't, no one knew 17 what the stacks were. They old guys are gone and the 18 new guys didn't know. No one caught it.
19 So I just want to say that, bottom line, 20 and when we met with Apostolakis they admitted it, we 21 have, are not protected. And we feel like -- this 22 is our neighborhood. If Exelon's going to come in 23 here and be in our neighborhood, give us the respect 24 with the protection we should have. Don't try to 25 weasel out of it. Thank you.
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48 1 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. Next up is Jeff 2 Brown (phonetic).
3 JEFF BROWN: My name's Jeff Brown. I'm 4 the director and member of (inaudible) and 5 (inaudible) energy safety. One of the things that 6 struck my attention when -- and Amanda's (phonetic) 7 article announcing this meeting was the quote from 8 the letter about that hose problem, that it was in 9 service for approximately 22 years and subjected to 10 thermal degradation and aging that eventually led to 11 a failure of EDG, emergency Diesel generator number 12 1.
13 Now I was glad to hear that one question 14 was answered. Okay, it should have been inspected 15 at 12 years. That means it was not properly dealt 16 with for 10 years. If you have a car and you have 17 parts that need to get replaced, you generally do it.
18 Now as that car gets older, you might say 19 I've got a used car. I'm going to let this go or 20 that go because it's a used car. Well Oyster Creek's 21 like a used car. They are supposed to close in 2019.
22 We don't know if they're really going to live up to 23 that because they have that license until 2029.
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49 1 we have a problem of workers taking well, you know, 2 it's only go three more years to go. We don't really 3 need to do this. Why wasn't that hose found for the 4 past 10 years? How many more things? I mean, it's 5 a very complex system, obviously.
6 But in a system every part is 7 interconnected. It affects the whole. So you know 8 that if something small goes that can escalate and 9 become cascading series of problems. So that there's 10 our concern. When I, when I read the summary on the 11 Web site about degrading findings, one of the things 12 I referred to it said Exelon didn't do this or Exelon 13 didn't do that. So it occurs to me, what level of 14 workers are we talking about. I mean, let's say you 15 have a bottom level, a middle level, and a high level.
16 And maybe they were more refinements in the 17 adminstrative chart.
18 But are we just having problems with 19 people who were on the lower level of coming in as 20 contractors and, you know, they've got grunt work to 21 do, or we have serious problems with administration 22 and oversight. It's never clear who individually is 23 responsible for doing or not doing these various 24 violations. So I would like to know what's your 25 sense of compliance and noncompliance in the plant.
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50 1 And the second issue I have generally 2 with the NRC is the sense of time. You move like a 3 glacier 4 before global warming. So that Fukushima was five 5 years ago. When I first heard the recommendation of 6 what was going to be required as a result of 7 Fukushima, I was aghast that it was going to be 8 starting out for so long. But now here we've gone 9 five years.
10 And, you know, so we're slowly moving 11 down this hill of maybe something happening, although 12 Exelon's going to abide on this deal. But if you 13 read, for example, the National Academy's press, 14 lessons learned from Fukushima accident just 15 recently, and trying to find out from Princeton who's 16 one of the authors again.
17 And one of the points that we're always 18 concerned about is how do they get that fuel out of 19 the fuel pool. Obvious to the common sense thinking, 20 thinning out the fuel pool is going to make it less 21 dangerous. And putting it in dry storage is going 22 to be more stable than having it on wet storage. But 23 they say that the USNRC has not analyzed the potential 24 vulnerabilities of spent fuel pools to the specific 25 terrorist attacks scenarios identified in NRC 2004.
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51 1 In other words, for twelve years later 2 the Agency hasn't analyzed something they said was a 3 problem twelve years ago. The sense of time is like 4 Alice in Wonderland here. And so I would like a 5 sense of urgency and an appreciation of understanding 6 what's going on at the staffing levels.
7 MR. PELTON: Thank you. We'll start at 8 the end and kind of work our way backward through 9 Jeff. So thanks for the questions. Let's see.
10 We're certainly aware of the NAS report that you're 11 talking about, and I believe the staff had that. It's 12 up being reviewed, and it's under consideration.
13 Brett and I talked about that before the meeting 14 today. So rest assured while the pace may seem 15 unreasonable to you, we've got the right people 16 looking at discussions and things to show that we 17 have made the right decisions looking back.
18 But we do have and stand by a position 19 that based on previous NAS studies and our own 20 independent analysis that the storage of spent fuel 21 is safe in the pool and safe in the interim storage 22 facilities, and that expediting that transfer from 23 the pool to the, to, I'll use the term histocy[ISFSI]
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52 1 are a learning organization. We have that report, 2 and we're going to take a look at it and give it full 3 consideration. Rest assured on that.
4 Studying back I believe that you were 5 asking us questions about our oversight of the plant, 6 particularly given the fact that 2019 appears to be 7 a date that they're going to choose to shut the plant 8 down. I guess I'm going to turn most of that 9 discussion over to Silas and Amar because these are 10 the people on the front lines who are actually at the 11 plant.
12 But understanding from our Region One 13 perspective, as a senior management team, what we do 14 is we engage with Silas and Amar on a regular basis 15 to look at and fully consider, you know, the current 16 plant performance, what they're seeing at the plant 17 from an operator perspective, from a plant staff 18 perspective. We look at our baseline inspection 19 program that we've kind of got in place for 2016, and 20 we make periodic decisions on do we need to make 21 adjustments. Are we seeing the kind of safety and 22 security focus that's necessary to keep the plant 23 operating safely.
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53 1 review that we do, and I take personal pride in the 2 region. To get a little more specific I'll just ask 3 Silas or Amar if they have any, can give us some 4 insights as to what they see on a day to day basis at 5 the plant.
6 MR. PATEL: Yeah, my response is similar 7 to what Dave's saying. Understand the plant needs 8 to continue to operate safely in the next three and 9 a half years prior shut down for division. We are 10 maintaining our daily oversight of the plant, 11 performing daily inspections, the plant activities.
12 You know, I'm looking for indications that the 13 impending shutdown could be affecting safe plant 14 operations. If we identify anything like that, then 15 we will, as David said, we will adjust our special 16 program to address that daily.
17 An example would be like maintenance, if 18 they are not doing all the right maintenance that 19 they should be doing, if we see indication of that, 20 we will provide more resources to focus in the area.
21 We engage the senior leadership team at the site on 22 the observations.
23 But I can tell you we have quotas daily.
24 I'm not aware of any indications where the pending 25 shutdown is impacting safe operation of the plant.
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54 1 MR. PELTON: And that's not to say that 2 we're giving the operators or the mechanics or anyone 3 else a pass on their performance. Their performance, 4 in those circumstances, was not acceptable, and we 5 believe that the findings that we generated reflect 6 the risk significance of it, and any messaging that 7 happens with between, like, for example, today I was 8 over at the plant. The tour was fantastic. Thank 9 you very much. You know, I had an opportunity to sit 10 with the site vice president and ask some of these 11 same questions.
12 It was, you know, what do you see, what 13 are you doing as the operator of the facility to 14 assure that your folks are keeping the right safety 15 focus, the right security focus. What are you doing 16 specifically to address the issues that you've heard 17 about or read about in the inspection reports. So 18 it is something that we do not go passed. We are 19 not, we are worried about it. Only in terms of would 20 expect the licensee to respond appropriately.
21 Now on oversight and Amar being at the 22 plant with us on a day to day basis, they are the 23 eyes and ears that we can turn to and say this is 24 what we've heard from the licensee, this is what 25 they've written in the responses, what are you seeing, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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55 1 what are you hearing, and is there anything that we 2 need to do as the senior management team to further 3 engage the licensee to ensure the continued safe 4 operation.
5 So I think you can, I hope you get the 6 sense that this is something we take very seriously.
7 It's continuously on our mind, and it's something 8 that we think about to make sure that the plant 9 continues to be safe.
10 JEFF BROWN: First let me start off by 11 saying thank you for recording per our request of the 12 past ten years. We're gratified. But what about the 13 question of the operators who do not follow specific 14 procedures? I mean, your reports give no clue to 15 what's behind this. Why don't people do the agreed 16 upon procedure? Why did they institute a particular 17 procedure that hadn't been approved by the NRC? I 18 mean, what's the thinking about this?
19 It's like everything is supposed to be, 20 I mean, it's so urgent. It's such a, it's a dangerous 21 proposition. I don't understand why people say, 22 okay, well, we'll do it our way this time, or we won't 23 bother to do this. And finally, what about that ten 24 year, that finding that missing hose? What does that 25 tell you about other things that have to be looked at NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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56 1 that are not automatically renewed?
2 MR. KENNEDY: Yes, I'll mention that.
3 This is Silas. As far as the scheduling process, 4 when we identify a finding we also look and see what 5 was the contributing problems and the findings. And 6 we call that the cross-cutting aspect. So you look 7 in the report, if there is some attributing policy to 8 find it, we will assign a cross-cutting aspect so 9 that you can trend why problems are happening so 10 hopefully you can prevent future issues.
11 JEFF BROWN: You're hoping that the 12 trending will prevent the future ---
13 MR. KENNEDY: Trending of issues will 14 help solve similar issues that, so they would not 15 occur.
16 MR. PELTON: And this cross-cutting 17 aspect that we assign to certain findings gives us 18 the opportunity as kind of the forward looking 19 indicators, a predictor, is this something that could 20 become more significant. And we have specific 21 oversee guidelines that allow us to, you know, engage 22 further with the licensee through messaging, through 23 direct action, and even as necessary, through 24 additional inspection. So that's an important 25 aspect.
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57 1 In the case of, you mentioned a couple 2 times the recent white finding and the failed Flex 3 coupling. You heard, I think Amar mentioned that 4 later this year we're going to be performing what we 5 refer to as a Supplement Inspection, 95001. But what 6 we would look at, the problem identification process, 7 the licensee engagement, we're going to look at the 8 corrective actions they took. We're going to, we 9 need to convince ourselves that actions taken 10 appropriately address the right people, the right 11 procedures, the right equipment.
12 In this case, this is a plant that went 13 through license renewal, and they were supposed to 14 have a robust program for flexible aging management.
15 So there are clearly aspects of that we're going to 16 explore. Then you also heard the term extent of 17 condition because we're not just going in there to 18 look at this one coupling. We want to know what 19 other flexible couplings, what other aging issues has 20 the licensee explored to assure that this isn't a 21 more far reaching program.
22 So our process allows us to do, you know, 23 through our supplemental special process 24 particularly, gives us the latitude to be able to 25 explore these areas pretty thoroughly.
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58 1 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. Right now we have an 2 additional individual on the site[list]. So, Janet, 3 was your intent to go last, or do you want to go now?
4 It's up to you. So all right.
5 JANET TAURO: Janet Tauro, and I serve 6 as the Board Chair of Clean Water Action. And we 7 have 150,000 members in New Jersey, and we're part of 8 the National Clean Water Action which has about 2 9 million members. And maybe next year on the wish 10 list we can have a podium to go with the transcribing 11 of the meeting. That would be terrific.
12 Okay. Just before I go into my other 13 questions, just a very direct question, yes or no.
14 Is the current, is the current wet well severe 15 accident capable? Yes or no. Is the current wet 16 well severe accident capable at this time?
17 MR. KLUKAN[PATEL]: The answer is yes.
18 The wet well is steel and concrete.
19 MR. VENTURE: Ask about the current 20 severe accident, the current vent isn't severe 21 accident capable.
22 MS. TAURO: You can answer, Paul.
23 MR. VENTURE: Can I just, the record 24 please -- yes, thank you, Janet, for sharing this 25 with me. Okay. So the current wet well vent that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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59 1 Exelon has put into its reply as a compensatory action 2 so they could continue to operate beyond the order 3 which said you have to be, you have to have a severe 4 accident capable vent. Right? Is the current 5 (inaudible) vent system severe accident capable?
6 MR. TITUS: Yes, the piping and the 7 ballasts that comprise the (inaudible) wet well vent 8 will perform their function in the event of 9 radioactive effluent. That's the definition of 10 severe accident capable.
11 MR. VENTURE: But does it provide at 12 pressure levels that will, that could be encountered 13 in a severe accident?
14 MR. KLUKAN[TITUS]: Yes, the 15 requirements of the order are that the wet well vent 16 will pass 1 percent at the KB, at the primary 17 containment pressure limit.
18 MR. VENTURE: Okay.
19 MR. TITUS: It's the same --
20 MR. VENTURE: Is the vent that's on there 21 now similar to the vent that was at Fukushima Daiichi?
22 MR. TITUS: I don't know the details of 23 that.
24 MR. VENTURE: I mean, because the current 25 vent was put there by the generic 8916.
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60 1 MR. TITUS: It was.
2 MR. VENTURE: So it was put there in 19, 3 I think it got installed in 1992. Okay. So that's 4 the vent that's there now. Okay. They may have made 5 some modifications to it, but the current vent was 6 also the same vent at Fukushima Daiichi that failed 7 100 percent time, okay, 100 percent failure rate on 8 three containment vents of the same ventage.
9 MR. PATEL: It couldn't open correctly.
10 MR. VENTURE: Well, I know, but the 11 question is they were not, they were not severe 12 accident capable.
13 MR. TITUS: That's not the reason they 14 failed. They failed because they didn't have power 15 to open the vent valves which allowed the pressure 16 inside the containment to build up such that it 17 performed the release that we're talking about.
18 So exactly what the order is required is 19 that we be able to reliably open the vents of the 20 BWRs here in the United States for Mark 1 and Mark 2 21 containments. So most licensees have to do that by 22 complying with the order to have 24 hour2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> power supply 23 dedicated to the wet well vent, and 24 hour2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> pneumatic 24 supply dedicated to the wet well vent so that they 25 can open under any circumstances.
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61 1 So as opposed to putting in those 2 batteries and those nitrogen bottles for a 24-hour 3 supply, Oyster Creek has essentially agreed to a 4 compensatory measure that they will have bottles on 5 hand that can perform that function to reliably open 6 the vent at any time with no power in the normal DC 7 or AC form.
8 MR. VENTURE: Do you think -- let me just 9 ask one more question, Janet.
10 MS. TAURO: Okay.
11 MR. VENTURE: Do you think that it 12 provided, that the public was provided due process in 13 the evaluation of this change to the order that -- as 14 I understand it, it provides essentially a door, a 15 back door for Oyster Creek to come into compliance 16 with the order as a Phase 1.
17 Okay. I mean, that's what, what it says 18 is that they're given, they've been given an extension 19 to comply with an order that was supposed to be 20 complied with by September 2016. You're telling me 21 they didn't even need the extension because they're 22 already in compliance. There seems to be a 23 disconnect here. I mean, if they are in compliance, 24 why did they need an extension to, you know, --
25 understand?
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62 1 MR. TITUS: I think I understand, but I 2 just want to clarify what I was saying. They're not 3 in full compliance with the order.
4 MR. VENTURE: Phase 1.
5 MR. TITUS: They're not in full 6 compliance with Phase 1. They were granted an 7 extension of Phase 1 based on some changes that they 8 are making. So in order to meet, and we'll call it 9 the safety bar, for lack of a better term, they said 10 here's the things that we're going to do to ensure 11 that our vent will operate during this window of 12 opportunity while we're not getting full compliance 13 with the order.
14 MR. VENTURE: Right.
15 MR. TITUS: And that's the technical 16 basis under which they approved their extension.
17 MR. VENTURE: So they've been given one 18 and half of one, yes, one and a half additional fuel 19 cycles to come into compliance that within a room 20 that you said needed to be done in September 2016.
21 So you're giving them another fuel cycle plus to come 22 into compliance with this order.
23 MR. TITUS: We're giving them further 24 operation based on ---
25 MR. VENTURE: Yes.
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63 1 MR. TITUS: -- the fact that they make 2 changes.
3 MR. VENTURE: Yes. You're giving them, 4 yes, you're giving them an extension on, you're giving 5 them, you're answering through a production and a 6 financial agenda rather than a public health and 7 safety agenda.
8 MR. TITUS: I don't think that's the case 9 at all.
10 MR. VENTURE: Well, I mean, they should, 11 they had three years to date to come into compliance 12 with an order they're supposed to be in compliance 13 with on September 2016. They blew that off in 2014.
14 Okay. So you've already given them an extension.
15 Well, I think that my, and our major 16 concern is that you never gave the public any due 17 process to discover the detail which you're talking 18 about now. That's never, that's never been provided 19 in a public meeting. It was never provided that a 20 hearing that our experts or that we could cross 21 examine this process. It was all done on paper and 22 in your office. Okay. For an order.
23 Now, I think that's our concern is that 24 this is, what is there now has not been fully vetted 25 in full disclosure. So we're, you know, I'm taking NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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64 1 you on your word, Brett. Okay. But the 2 documentation has not been provided to the public to 3 back up what you're saying is there now. Okay. The 4 company has not been required to disclose under oath 5 what it did and did not do, and you're still waiting 6 on it.
7 MR. TITUS: Now, I would like to add that 8 they do plan on installing modifications this fall.
9 MR. VENTURE: I'm sorry?
10 MR. TITUS: They do plan on installing 11 the modifications this coming fall.
12 MR. VENTURE: Yes.
13 MR. TITUS: They made a commitment for 14 the compensatory measures to be in place ---
15 MR. VENTURE: Right.
16 MR. TITUS: -- by the September 2016 17 date.
18 MR. VENTURE: Right. Right. But again 19 we, the process has never been transparent so that 20 it's been vetted in a public, in full disclosure and 21 under oath that it is severe accident capable.
22 MR. TITUS: Okay. So I'll try to address 23 two aspects. One, I'll address the technical 24 attributes of what they submitted and why we believe 25 they made a safety case such that they were granted NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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65 1 the extension for Phase 1. And that didn't have 2 anything to do with finances.
3 They made a safety case based on the 4 capabilities of their vents to be able to be reliably 5 opened, including compensatory measures, and to be 6 able to withstand a seismic event that could be an 7 initiator or a severe accident.
8 MR. VENTURE: Seismic not just in terms 9 of ground, but how about aircraft impact?
10 MR. TITUS: Aircraft impact?
11 MR. VENTURE: That's a seismic impact.
12 Right?
13 MR. TITUS: No, that was not part of the 14 13109 order.
15 MR. VENTURE: But it is, but an aircraft 16 impact is a seismic event. It sends a shock into the 17 plant, into the plant systems.
18 MR. TITUS: I can only speak to what's 19 required by the 13109 order. That's what we granted 20 an extension from.
21 MR. VENTURE: But you evaluated seismic 22 events.
23 MR. TITUS: They evaluated the seismic 24 capability based on their design basis earthquake, 25 yes. So, and their system was found to be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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66 1 substantially robust and rugged to perform its 2 function following the seismic event. So I just want 3 to say this. The attributes, the technical 4 attributes of their, they made their safety case which 5 is why we granted that extension.
6 Now move over to the process phase. And 7 I was at the 17th meeting as well with the Commission.
8 And so you heard overriding perspectives from 9 Commission Baran, Commissioner Ostendorff. They each 10 had something to say, but the Deputy Executive 11 Director of Operations, Mike Johnson, I can't -- my 12 opinion is inconsequential compared to his. And so 13 you did hear what he said. There's a very specific 14 process we follow for this, and he's happy with the 15 process. There is a 2206 division process.
16 MR. VENTURE: But you know the 2206 is a 17 cul de sac.
18 MR. TITUS: I can only, I can only 19 reflect to you what was stated at the Commission 20 meeting.
21 MR. VENTURE: But again, and I'll let it 22 go. But I want you to know that again Commissioner 23 Baran said that the staff gave a waiver to a 24 Commission order on semantics. That's what he said.
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67 1 and safety. It sounds evasive. Okay.
2 And the fact that you conducted these 3 meetings behind closed doors with no due process to 4 the public that inspects your mandate to be its 5 protection, that was not provided. And again you did 6 not provide an opportunity for our experts to review 7 the process under discovery and under oath of 8 affirmation. Thank you.
9 MR. KENNEDY: One last clarification.
10 The request for additional information and Exelon's 11 responses to those questions are publically available 12 documents. You have the ML number which was all done 13 in the public domain.
14 MR. VENTURE: But not with public 15 present.
16 MS. TAURO: Right. They're public 17 documents, but really I have to go along with what 18 Paul says and what interaction goes along with Paul 19 says, and (inaudible) goes along with Paul says.
20 It was not done in a public forum, and we 21 were not given the opportunity to hire experts and 22 have our experts up there and review it and refute 23 it. And that's, it's a public safety issue, and it 24 should not have been done behind closed doors. It 25 should have been done out in the public.
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68 1 And if you were really confident about it 2 and thought it was great, and if Exelon was confident 3 about it, that's how it should be done. It should 4 be done in public. There should be total 5 transparency.
6 I want to get back to the ridiculousness 7 of this extension that was given. But first I'd like 8 to ask if anybody is here, is there any representative 9 here from the DEP? Okay. So --
10 MR. KLUKAN: So some people prior, so 11 because we are recording this, and it's just audio, 12 I wanted to, why I was kind of hovering there, that 13 was Paul Venture speaking earlier. Silas Kennedy 14 also responded at one point, and then I think three 15 people raised their hand in the audience in response 16 to that question. I apologize for interrupting.
17 MS. TAURO: Yes. In response to that 18 question, three people were answering there. So what 19 I'd like to say is that the NRC has given Exelon an 20 extension to comply with that order until 2020.
21 Right? Now, they have an agreement with the state 22 to close in 2019.
23 So, you know, that's really making a fool 24 of the state of New Jersey, and it's making a fool of 25 the residents. Because how do you give an extension?
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69 1 So you told them, so Exelon requested an extension to 2 comply with that order in 2020, but they have an 3 agreement with the state to close in 2019.
4 So how does this jive? How does this 5 jive? It makes the state look like a fool that they 6 negotiated this agreement. And really, what does 7 that say to the public? So are they closing in 2019 8 or not? You gave them an extension to comply with 9 the order until 2020. 2019 they're supposed to be 10 offline.
11 MR. KLUKAN: That's right. And that 12 continues to be our understanding, as well.
13 MS. TAURO: But then why did you give 14 them an extension to comply with an order until 2020, 15 and why did they even put in an extension for an order 16 until 2020? Was it just to get away with not doing 17 anything because they were supposed to do it by 2016 18 and you let them slide?
19 MR. KENNEDY: I think the bottom line is 20 that until the plant closes, (inaudible) operation 21 for the (inaudible).
22 MS. TAURO: Oh, it's just ridiculous. It 23 really flies in the face of logic. It flies in the 24 face of logic that they're supposed to close in 2019, 25 and you give them an extension to comply with an NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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70 1 order, and you give them until 2020. I mean, really, 2 what are we supposed to think?
3 Now, the other question I would like to 4 ask you is part of the relicensing requirements, when 5 they were given their relicensing, there was a 6 requirement that they conduct ultrasonic testing of 7 the dry well every other year. Could you tell me 8 when that latest testing was done. When was that 9 latest round of testing done and what did you find?
10 MR. KENNEDY: The latest test, the first 11 test was conducted in 2014, and there was no 12 corrosion. There were no findings.
13 MS. TAURO: Okay, 2014. So now when's 14 the next round?
15 MR. KENNEDY: Right. That is --
16 MS. TAURO: When's the next round?
17 MR. KENNEDY: Obviously that is, that was 18 also documented into one of the special reports. I 19 believe after this I can give you that report number 20 if you'd like to read that.
21 MS. TAURO: Okay. So that was 2014. So 22 in other words, there's an upcoming. Right? It's 23 now 2016.
24 MR. KENNEDY: They're required by the 25 license to get the inspections every other outage.
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71 1 So they're required to conduct another ultrasonic 2 test of the containment environment in 2018.
3 MS. TAURO: Now when they did that 4 ultrasonic testing, let me ask you something.
5 Because the way they were doing it in the dry well, 6 they were doing just such a very small area. They 7 were doing like less than 1 percent of the dry well.
8 And then, you know, when they found 9 corrosion, they didn't like go, you know, next to it 10 to see how far it went. They didn't go below. They 11 didn't go above. How was that testing done and how 12 much of the dry well was tested? Because this came 13 up during the licensing that they were only testing 14 less than 1 percent.
15 So how much of that dry well are they 16 testing? And are they just going in the same spots, 17 or are they looking elsewhere?
18 MR. KENNEDY: I do not have the details.
19 MS. TAURO: Yes.
20 MR. TITUS: Well, you know, so we have 21 in-service inspectors that come every outage to 22 inspect their inspections of, their teams. So if you 23 do a certain point of the dry well every other outage, 24 and it doesn't show any degradation or corrosion, 25 then there's no further issue. That's why they do NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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72 1 specific areas each time. If you do this area, we'll 2 do another area, that's not a good view. That's my 3 understanding of how the test went.
4 MS. TAURO: Yes, but when they were 5 testing it, so if they found some corrosion here, 6 right, you know, they found it here, then they went 7 and they looked up here. They didn't really go over 8 here to see how, you know, far it might have gone.
9 Or maybe did it spread up here or down here.
10 MR. PELTON: And understand too I 11 happened to have been a branch chief in our office of 12 direct regulation when Oyster Creek was going through 13 license renewal, and I think you're recalling those 14 days when the licensee conducted significant amount 15 of cleaning of the dry well shell, coating of the dry 16 well shell, and finite well analysis as well as 17 ultrasonic testing.
18 And the combination of all that, 19 basically, you know, the whole intent was to 20 understand the, as my commission will show, to 21 preserve it to minimize the extent out to absolutely 22 practical any further corrosion, and to give them a 23 lasting record of, you know, the locations where they 24 do start to do an engineered approach to figuring out 25 over time where they want to explore the continued NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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73 1 thickness in various locations, to give them the 2 highest level of confidence that the containment's 3 continuing to do its safety function.
4 So it's really a combination of all that 5 past work, as well as the original design, and then 6 as Amar suggests, a systematic approach to continued 7 ultrasonic testing in various locations to assure 8 that, number one, ultrasonic testing, including the 9 thickness, but there's also visual inspections or 10 inspections of the coatings to ensure that the 11 coatings remain intact, such that their corrosion is 12 minimized to the extent possible.
13 So it's, that's kind of the, at least 14 this group's understanding of the past issues, how 15 they're going about doing their inspections, and as 16 Amar, as Amar suggests, we have in-service inspection 17 experts in our regional office who come out and 18 observe the licensee's actions.
19 They observe their results. And until 20 they are satisfied with the actions taken by the 21 licensee are adequate to ensure that the containment 22 can provide safety.
23 MS. TAURO: Right. Now getting back to 24 that hose, that's very, very troubling. You know, 25 the hose that was supposed to be replaced every 12 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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74 1 years, and after 22 years, I mean, what other things 2 are going by? What about the electrical cables?
3 What about the insulation on the electrical cables?
4 What about, what about things like that?
5 I mean, what about that, often are they 6 inspected? How often are the, all of the, all of the 7 electrical, by the way, can you inspect all of the 8 electrical cables in the plant? Are there areas that 9 are just too radioactive to get to?
10 MR. TITUS: Well, when you talk about 11 testing of electrical cables, you're talking about 12 testing of motors and that's like the stuff for, that 13 tech spec requires so essentially testing the 14 electrical cables themselves.
15 We also have, they also do Tan Delta 16 testing. They do testing of certain equipment to see 17 whether their cables are further degraded. So we 18 have, also have a cable inspection that we also look 19 at, or a cable monitoring program.
20 MR. PELTON: And understand that, you 21 know, even though a pump is an active component with, 22 you know, and powers that move and motors that spin, 23 they're, the cable is, you know, if you recall from 24 like the old days, the purpose is to look at those 25 pieces of equipment that don't have a, that don't NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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75 1 stick and don't move, but that still need to be age-2 managed.
3 By doing tech-spec required, technical 4 specification required testing, the, you can at least 5 assure that the cable is performing its function and 6 providing power where needed. The control functions 7 are still available.
8 In addition to that, the licensees have 9 programs for maintenance where they will periodically 10 disconnect electrical cables and do resistance checks 11 to assure that the cable remains intact and able to 12 provide the kind of current that's needed to perform 13 safety functions.
14 And that applies, all those license 15 renewal commitments that you recall that were issued 16 back in 2009, the, our Region I office inspected their 17 implementation of those actions, inclusion in the 18 updated final safety analysis report, as well as 19 inclusion into their ongoing maintenance program.
20 Because if you went to the plant now, 21 those commitments and programs that they have agreed 22 to do, they're more than commitments. They're 23 actually, their regulatory obligations committed to 24 through a licensed commission.
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76 1 expected to be conducted, and when they do not perform 2 those kinds of activities such as the, having a clear 3 understanding of the meaning as used with a flexible 4 connection they reverted to, we take action and we 5 apply, in this case, you know, a potential white issue 6 to it because it's of more than moderate safety 7 significance.
8 So we would agree that it's an issue that 9 needs to be addressed. It needs to be fully explored 10 and understood, and not just a snapshot, but a more 11 global renew.
12 So I can assure you that our inspection 13 later this year is going to explore all of this.
14 MS. TAURO: Now let me ask you something.
15 In the latest NAS report, you know, you said, maybe 16 not keeping up with the times in terms of terrorist 17 threats, and cyber threats, is that being kind of 18 beefed up?
19 MR. PELTON: Well, I can tell you we're 20 well aware of that report. We mentioned it, we 21 mentioned earlier that that addresses a number of 22 aspects of nuclear play operation we are well aware 23 of.
24 We are certainly taking a look at, but 25 let me just tell you that, you know, as part of our NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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77 1 NRC oversight of the plant, we look at their security 2 program. That's one of our cornerstones is security.
3 So we have security inspectors that come 4 out from our regional office and inspect specific 5 aspects of, what are the criteria that need to be met 6 before you can even allow somebody to come onsite.
7 It looks at criminal records. It looks 8 at, it looks at their background. It does fitness 9 for duty testing.
10 The licensee has programs for direct 11 observation of staff. Is anything suspicious or out 12 of the ordinary? They need to know about that. And 13 --
14 MS. TAURO: Outside contractors?
15 MR. PELTON: Everybody. And so there 16 are thorough checks. It can apply to us as well.
17 We're not exempt from them. We also get looked at.
18 Their fitness for duty program, we have our own.
19 But as far as background checks and 20 everything else, we are submitted to the same kind of 21 scrutiny. From a, you mentioned an insider prep 22 perspective.
23 Licensees also have, within their 24 security plan, aspect, which I can't get into a whole 25 lot of detail, but --
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78 1 MS. TAURO: Yes.
2 MR. PELTON: Rest assured that they 3 include an insider prep perspective. You'll also 4 probably hear or read about the fact that there are 5 force on force exercises at each of our place.
6 Our Office of Nuclear Security, they 7 conduct and hire these fairly robust teams to come in 8 and challenge the licensee security plan, and work 9 with the licensee, or to test their security 10 functions, and they often include kind of an insider 11 perspective to say, you know, what if somebody, you 12 know, decided to take action. How would they address 13 that? How would that be addressed?
14 So their program includes all those 15 things. And our oversight program makes sure that 16 they do.
17 MS. TAURO: Just, I'm not asking you to 18 divulge anything, but outside contractors, if you 19 could just beef that up a little bit because I'm 20 referring to the man that worked at the nuclear plants 21 for six years and he's now in the Yemen jail for, you 22 know, being a suspected Al Qaeda operative. And, 23 yes, so --
24 MR. PELTON: Yes, so we're doing --
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79 1 because didn't, hasn't Exelon gotten rid of a lot of 2 their, you know, their work force has dwindled over 3 the years and there's more outsider, outside 4 contractors coming in? So I would just say to really 5 take a good look at the outside contractors. Okay.
6 And just one more really quick, quick, 7 quick, the 2004 NAS report suggested, you know, 8 thinning the fuel pool, but that action hasn't been 9 taken yet. Do you see yourself taking action on that 10 quickly?
11 MR. PELTON: Quickly is, it's --
12 MS. TAURO: Yes, I know. It's NRC time.
13 MR. PELTON: I'm going to sound like a 14 broken record, but you know, we had, I mentioned 15 earlier that based on, you know, the agency did 16 expedited fuel transfer kind of look.
17 We've looked at excessive waste by fuel 18 pools. Believe that they continue to be operated 19 safely, and we are looking at that. We are looking 20 at that in detail. That's done in the event analysis.
21 Again, I mentioned earlier that, Brett 22 and I were talking about that earlier. And we will 23 take action as appropriate. And I'm sure that 24 whatever those actions are, at least in their final 25 implementation, will be, you know, well vetted.
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80 1 MS. TAURO: Thank you, then.
2 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. Okay. Before, 3 our last speaker on the list is Joe (phonetic). I 4 just want to check in with the audience right now.
5 We have about 20 minutes left.
6 Is there anyone else who has not spoken 7 tonight who would like to do so that is not on the 8 list, meaning you're not Joe? Anyone else other than 9 Joe who'd like to speak? Okay. Joe, you are up.
10 JOE: Good evening, fellows. My name's 11 Joe Gluove (phonetic). I've been (inaudible) for 12 quite a while with, you know, Oyster Creek and I 13 remember back with the casks, they were, back then I 14 was concerned. You know, the above-ground casks.
15 You fellows answer a great question.
16 I came here and I asked if a fellow in a 17 747 were to hit the thing, and you handed me answers 18 all around. It took me a couple of minutes to get 19 caught up.
20 I'm seeing that, and before I even say 21 that, you know, to go on with the Bay situation where 22 they dump the tribune in there, and you start seeing 23 the tribune levels in California, their six year and 24 their tribune levels are, at a certain point they're 25 acceptable, whereas ours here would be unacceptable NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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81 1 there. That worried me.
2 And I'm just going through a little bit 3 of history that has concerned me a little bit. Then 4 we had the storm, which flooded that area. That 5 could've been a disaster. They were down the night 6 that storm, I don't know if you're familiar with the 7 storm I'm talking about. But that could've been a 8 disaster.
9 But again, you know, I appreciate your 10 regular community of (inaudible), transparency, yes, 11 over the last 20 years.
12 I'm not going to do the endorse it and 13 don't really ask questions, but I, the trust of the 14 NRC really.
15 I don't have a problem with that at this 16 point. What I have a serious problem with, and I was 17 listening to a lot of the people in the group, is 18 that you have a business and a drill cycle.
19 Their 40 year life engineering lives extended, 20 and then basically you decided, you know what? We 21 got our extension. Now we'll go 10 years before, we 22 got what we want.
23 We got our lawnmower. We're running to 24 the ground. Oh, but once it hits the ground, no, 25 we're not going to invest in this plan. And now NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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82 1 we're where we are at 2019.
2 My concern is they are not as transparent 3 as you are, cooperative, and basically safety 4 consistency is not there.
5 Over the last several years since I've 6 been, you know, a concerned citizen. I'm interested 7 in nuclear, and at the same time, I'm very interested 8 in safety for your community here.
9 You know, Route 9, I'll give you an 10 example, there was a, somebody bringing a house up 11 the street. You know, to build a disaster. The 12 Route really got shut down for three hours.
13 And I started to say to myself, my God, 14 there was like maybe 50 miles of traffic. I don't 15 know if anybody was in that traffic.
16 One of the people that I'm working for in 17 my business was actually behind me. I was literally 18 two cars away. All of Route 9 was almost shut down 19 all the way down to here.
20 Let's say one of these breaches, that it 21 never happened because of their little cat and mouse 22 game, which is what they're throwing to you, and 23 that's something that you necessarily can't even do 24 anything about sometimes because of their extensions 25 or rights, their right with all the laws and the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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83 1 lawyers that they have.
2 And they have rights as well, 3 unfortunately the way the rules work. But that's 4 what scares the hell out of me, is that you don't 5 know if and when a breach can happen.
6 So I have a couple of questions. Is it 7 possible for another company to use Oyster Creek for 8 future nuclear, and what roles does the NRC have in 9 this transition, including a natural gas plan?
10 MR. PELTON: Yes, that --
11 JOE: It's just a question.
12 MR. PELTON: Yes, that's where you get 13 into the state health. In all honesty, that is a, 14 that is an excellent disposition, decision.
15 You know, we can, you know, we certainly 16 regulate their current operation. We will regulate 17 employee respective drug decommissioning process.
18 Beyond that, the, how they choose to use 19 that facility is, you know, is, you know, that's a, 20 that's a business.
21 JOE: How would that work? Would they 22 sublease it or change that?
23 MR. PELTON: I can't speak to that. I, 24 that's --
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84 1 basically hop from 2019 up to 10 years left? It 2 could be like transitioned, you know?
3 MR. PELTON: Yes. Do you have any 4 insights from a longer term decommissioning 5 perspective?
6 MR. TITUS: From a decommissioning 7 perspective or from an operation? From an operation 8 perspective, I mean, certainly plants can be sold.
9 JOE: In this case of discussion about, 10 and I'm just getting over my angle of (inaudible) 11 came out.
12 MR. PELTON: Sure.
13 JOE: Because I didn't expect this angle 14 of it. But you know, there's some proponents that 15 are basically saying, you know what, you have the 16 fuel rods here. You have a very dangerous situation 17 once they're gone, and it's going to be complicated.
18 And it's going to be, you know, for anyone 19 living in Forked River or Lacey within that 70 mile 20 radius who has any of the aspect or focus or knowing 21 that their concern is that people don't care. But 22 some people don't care about this nuclear plant. A 23 lot of people do.
24 There's talk that, you know, are we going 25 to put a gas plant here? Are we going to put this NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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85 1 here? So you answered my question.
2 Basically Exelon holds kind of like that 3 lease of that property. It wouldn't even be somebody 4 who could just come in, hack the 2019 and put a 5 nuclear plant up. They have to actually say, hey, 6 we want to put up another nuclear plant.
7 They can rebuild again if that's their, 8 however they work, to suffer a loss on this one, cash 9 out and move forward.
10 MR. PELTON: Well, we certainly have 11 under 10 CFR Part 52, you know, licensing of new 12 reactor plants. They can happen. I have absolutely 13 no insight into what Exelon plans to do long term.
14 JOE: If that ever happened, I'm just 15 curious, if that ever happened onsite, would that, 16 what, that would have, would that have to be a new 17 license, or would the extension license be part of 18 that, where they can sell it or lease it like a liquor 19 license almost?
20 MR. PELTON: Yes. You know what? I am, 21 I've got to tell you, I'm not an expert on direct or 22 indirect license transfers. Those processes are 23 possible, but to get into the details of how they 24 apply and what they apply, I would have to refer you 25 to our public Web site for a greater insight into NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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86 1 that.
2 JOE: So the worst thing is a gas plant 3 now. Like if they, or a solar plant, let's say.
4 They want to concentrate in solar. You know, let's 5 say, our, or windows.
6 It would be concentrated solar major 7 power. That, would you know in that situation, would 8 that, what's the hurdles that --
9 MR. PELTON: Again, you know, what we can 10 speak to and have experts for is what we would require 11 the licensee to do and to, with the facility they 12 have now, either under an operating condition or a 13 shutdown condition.
14 Beyond that or what they would choose as 15 an energy alternative, I, we just can't speak to.
16 JOE: My other question would be, 17 wouldn't it be easier on a standpoint of, wouldn't it 18 be safer, less hassle, I use the word hassle, I'm not 19 a scientist here.
20 Let's say somebody did, or they decided 21 to extend the license and, yes, we're going to get a 22 new fuel lodge[load], we're going to get everything 23 changed, and all this other stuff, with a nightmare 24 that's going to occur for 20 years after that happens, 25 basically decommission that thing. Possible NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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87 1 accidents happening.
2 If they're breaching now, I can't even 3 imagine once they don't have any (inaudible). Could 4 an expansion of, could another prospective nuclear 5 plant actually make it safer compared to, and shut 6 down in 2019?
7 MR. PELTON: Yes, that, there's a lot of, 8 there's just a lot of hypothetical there. And I, 9 with total respect to that, you're asking reasonable 10 questions, but I'll tell you, from a regulatory 11 perspective, I'm just not sure that we're in a 12 position to kind of go into those kind of scenarios 13 long term.
14 But as I said before, there are specific 15 requirements for ownership. Specific requirements 16 for the transferring of licenses, either directly or 17 indirectly. And again, I would have to refer --
18 JOE: But Exelon, from what we're saying 19 again, Exelon definitely can't basically, until 2029, 20 they basically start another business in nuclear from 21 2019 to 2029?
22 MR. PELTON: I, the --
23 JOE: They have that power to be able to 24 do that because they have the license, right?
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88 1 facility. So --
2 JOE: Yes.
3 MR. PELTON: You're talking about if they 4 can apply for a license, certainly at that location 5 or any other Exelon location, but that's a --
6 JOE: They have to grab the other 7 license.
8 MR. PELTON: If it's independent, on a 9 license. That's why, you can't go, we use this 10 facility for something else while it's still under 11 its current license.
12 JOE: Got you. Okay. So if that's, I'm 13 kind of asking you another question, is that 14 particular facility, it would have to be in 2019.
15 If somebody wanted to come in there and 16 build a nuclear plant, they would have to go through 17 a whole new license thing all over again.
18 MR. PELTON: That's my understanding.
19 JOE: And Exelon probably would as well 20 if they wanted to build a new core and everything 21 else.
22 MR. PELTON: You look at examples where 23 they've done that in South Carolina (inaudible) and 24 Sumner but that's what they've done.
25 JOE: They've done that before.
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89 1 MR. PELTON: They're doing it now.
2 They're building new plants and they had to get new 3 licenses. And they're building new plants on sites 4 where there are existing plants.
5 JOE: Got you. All right. And my other 6 question, I've got two and that's it. Are you 7 concerned with the safety breaches and recent 8 failures for orders that can possibly, could possibly 9 be related to a business decision?
10 In other words, not so much safety for 11 people, because I mean, everybody sitting in this 12 audience basically understands that, you know, you're 13 ordering.
14 You guys have talked to these people at 15 times and they're not compliant with what they need 16 to do. They're dealing with this in a money thing.
17 Are you concerned about that, that here 18 we have 2019 coming in. They come and have this by 19 the thing that's in '29, that's when their license is 20 supposed to expire.
21 But 2019, they're, they, you know what?
22 I'm going to run my lawnmower that is only 40 days or 23 whatever, two years, and it's supposed to break by 24 then. They're running up like it's 40 years past.
25 What we got now, how old is this thing?
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90 1 MR. PELTON: 1969 now.
2 JOE: So how many years?
3 MS. GRANATO: Forty-seven years.
4 JOE: Forty-seven. Thank you. So, all 5 right. So my last question is kind of like, you 6 know, leading to this.
7 What aspects of the plan are a safety 8 concern after the 40 year engineering staff for the 9 life of the plan, not already being addressed?
10 Let me just go ahead, for example, solar 11 panels, which are the next that install them, an 12 inverter over the last 10 years. After 10 years, if 13 there was a micro-inverter that could possibly catch 14 fire.
15 You know, there's different things that 16 could happen, different components, then you really 17 can't change that. A solar panel with the efficiency 18 kind of starts to go, 25 years is where it's supposed 19 to be, 18, 19, 20, after 25 years it's pretty much 20 useless.
21 What aspects that we haven't seen that, 22 that you think could be possible that that stamp after 23 that 40 years, that we have future problems with that, 24 or future issues?
25 MR. PELTON: Well, let me, let me take a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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91 1 shot at that.
2 JOE: And even people get other newer 3 plans because they were the oldest one, right here.
4 MR. PELTON: Well, so we're the NRC.
5 We're the regulators, so we oversee the facility.
6 The facility, you know, like the government says that 7 they had initial start in 1969.
8 So, but here, the purpose of the, but 9 there are some other aspects I'd like to talk about.
10 Maintenance, we have our code of federal relations 11 1565 requires the licensee to have a very rigorous 12 maintenance program.
13 So despite the age of the license, that 14 program is in, was put in place to ensure the 15 licensees are actively testing their equipment and 16 understanding when the equipment is in a less than 17 optimal for, you know, how they've been performing.
18 And they take, and then they take action to get it 19 fixed.
20 And if those equipment is not as reliable 21 as they would want it to be, our program would have 22 kind of a graded approach where we would expect the 23 licensee to do more maintenance to test it more 24 frequently.
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92 1 stipulates specific periodic testing. I will refer 2 to diesel generators. They test it every two weeks.
3 So the safety-related equipment needed to 4 safely operate and safely shut down the plant are 5 tested periodically. So --
6 JOE: So you (inaudible) say, okay, this 7 plant is over 40 years old. We use (inaudible) and 8 parts, this will be the focus on this right here, 9 safety issues.
10 MR. PELTON: That's right. And when you 11 hear the term license, you know we talked about the, 12 there are two aspects that we really are providing 13 oversight for.
14 One is the active side, and that's what 15 I just described, where they actually start pumps.
16 They turn diesel generators on. They make sure that 17 those active components can perform their designed 18 function.
19 And then there's the passive things such 20 as inverters, such as cables, structures that 21 seemingly, don't actually move, but are necessary for 22 safety.
23 Those are the things that really we're 24 focused on in the license renewal process. And all 25 those, and they have specific programs that they are NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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93 1 obligated to follow by law, and that they've included 2 their maintenance program.
3 So earlier I mentioned that, you know, 4 that is an aspect that we continue to inspect, not 5 only from our regional office, but the resident 6 inspectors look at the maintenance of the plant on a 7 continuous basis, as well as all that testing I 8 described of the active components. So despite the 9 age of the license --
10 JOE: It's like a parts list, basically, 11 if you have, and it's not like this new territory or 12 ground. It's just, it's, you know, this, pretty much 13 you know engineering-wise, this is where the problem 14 spots are going to be.
15 MR. PELTON: It's built into our baseline 16 inspection program, and it's, like I mentioned in the 17 beginning of our presentation, risk-informed and 18 performance-based.
19 So we know what parts of the plant and 20 what pieces of equipment are needed and are important 21 to safety.
22 But we also go out and directly observe 23 the operation of these facilities and their systems 24 to make sure that the performance of the equipment 25 and the performance of the people and procedures is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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94 1 appropriate.
2 So risk-informed, performance-based.
3 The maintenance that's done, the testing that's done 4 give us the kind of assurance that, as reflected in 5 the, in our matrix earlier, that this plant, it being 6 in the licensee response column, continues to operate 7 safely.
8 JOE: So basically what I was saying 9 before, and not to beat a dead horse, it's like you're 10 in a position with them where they have the upper 11 hand. They're, we're leaving 2019.
12 You have them pretty much quantitatively 13 saying, this is what you need to do. You're right 14 on it then.
15 Do you, do you have a concern that it's 16 going to get any worse with compliance, that they're 17 going to be stretching out maintenance as much as 18 they possibly can?
19 This is going to get really complicated 20 and, are there ways for me to, I don't even want to 21 say, circumvent or, you know, where it's rubbing 22 things out here, legal extensions and I don't even 23 know, and --
24 MR. PELTON: I'll tell you, one of the 25 ways we do that would be to --
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95 1 MR. KLUKAN: I'm going to, I'm going to 2 just jump in here. Toni, I heard that you had a 3 statement that you wanted to read into the record, 4 like after?
5 MS. GRANATO: Yes. But I had another 6 question that the public can also comment afterwards, 7 after the question and answer period. So 8 would we be able to go to this and give them their 9 time and then would the public be able to comment 10 afterward?
11 MR. KLUKAN: Comment, you mean provide a 12 written comment or you mean just, or --
13 MS. GRANATO: Go back up to the podium 14 basically, with other people that have to go up that 15 signed in and said that they were opposed or give 16 support of the plan.
17 MR. KLUKAN: Yes. So that was, I mean, 18 this is what we mean do in the back and forth. So 19 quite frankly, if you have something that you would 20 like to incorporate into the record, this would be 21 the time to do it.
22 So after we finish up with this question, 23 I would suggest, since you were the first one on the 24 list and we're cycling back for now to go up and do 25 that.
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96 1 MS. GRANATO: Yes.
2 MR. KLUKAN: Does that make sense?
3 MS. GRANATO: That makes sense, and I 4 just wanted to make sure that others that may be 5 interested in speaking after, could if they want to.
6 MR. KLUKAN: Well, we're coming up on 8 7 o'clock. So it's up to you. We can also, you know, 8 take your written comment and attach it to the 9 transcript if you, if you, it's whichever works.
10 MS. GRANATO: I would like to speak, but 11 I just heard that there's no one else signed up to 12 speak after me.
13 MR. KLUKAN: Yes.
14 MS. GRANATO: I think it would be a 15 courtesy to extend it a few more minutes after 8 16 o'clock since this is a yearly meeting and people are 17 here who might have a comment after this dialogue.
18 So I just want do what you choose to do.
19 MR. KLUKAN: All right. So it's 7:56 20 right now. We're going to wrap this up. How long 21 do you think your comment would last?
22 MS. GRANATO: Less than three minutes.
23 MR. KLUKAN: Three minutes?
24 MR. PELTON: That should've been done by 25 the time (inaudible).
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97 1 MR. KLUKAN: I'm just trying to, I'm 2 sorry. So does anyone else want to say anything or 3 have any other comments or questions after her? Even 4 if you've already spoken. Anyone else want to go 5 again?
6 MS. TAURO: (Inaudible).
7 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. So how about we let 8 her go, and then you can go again, and then we'll 9 finish this up right now. All right. Sounds good.
10 So remember where you're at.
11 MR. PELTON: Yes, I do. I just want to, 12 I kind of, I hate to sound repetitive, but despite 13 the legalities and despite what the, you know, with 14 all due respect to the, to the rights that are the 15 code of federal regulations provides to the 16 licensees, we have, regulators have full access to 17 everything they're doing.
18 We have unfettered access to any part of 19 the plant we want to go to. We have unfettered access 20 and availability to have direct contact with their, 21 with every level of management, whether it's the, you 22 know, all the way up to their chief operating officer, 23 right down to the, to the custodial workers. And to 24 understand perspectives on how the plant continues to 25 run.
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98 1 So we mentioned earlier that for Oyster 2 Creek and frankly other plants that have announced 3 that they have a near term closure, what we do in our 4 Philadelphia office, and me as a senior manager there, 5 we, in conjunction with what we hear and see and 6 understand from the inspection reports and directly 7 from our resident inspectors, we on a period basis, 8 look at the inspections we're doing and the amount of 9 contact time we have with the senior management team 10 at the plant, and make sure that if we're not seeing 11 a degradation or a change in demeanor of the people 12 or if we start seeing trends in degradation in 13 performance, those are the things that are going to 14 prompt us to maybe change some aspect of our 15 inspection program, or perhaps do further engagement 16 at a higher management level, whether it's the 17 Commission, whether it's myself, and have direct 18 contact with the senior managers at the site.
19 So we have full opportunity, and believe 20 me, we have full interest in the continued safe 21 operations of this facility.
22 So I think that process allows us and 23 gives us our code, federal regulations gives us full 24 access and opportunity to engage at every level and 25 look at everything.
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99 1 Frankly, I'm not suggesting that we have 2 our eyes on every single thing at the plant, but what 3 we do have is we can go to where there are concerns 4 and get those addressed.
5 Where there are key messages we share 6 with management to assure the continued safe 7 operation. We make sure those are heard and 8 understood.
9 So I'm not sure if that answers your 10 question.
11 JOE: Yes, I understand. I really 12 appreciate it. Thank you.
13 MS. GRANATO: I appreciate the 14 opportunity to come back up. My name is Toni Granato, 15 and I represent the New Jersey Sierra Club. I 16 just have one additional question that I did miss in 17 the beginning. My question primarily is in regard 18 to the plan for the spent fuel onsite. What exactly 19 is the plan for that?
20 MR. TITUS: Are you talking about 21 (inaudible)?
22 MS. GRANATO: Yes.
23 MR. TITUS: Or, well, I don't know if I'm 24 going to have a full answer for you. The central 25 management is obviously intricately related to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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100 1 decommissioning. But it's, because of it's 2 nature of how it's managed and the rules and the 3 federal agencies that are involved, including the 4 Congress, in the final disposition of fuel, it's 5 beyond NRC's purview to provide a full solution for 6 all of that.
7 That being said, the licensee has strict 8 united plan. Part of the NRC, where they get to the 9 point of shutting down and submitting it, it pushed 10 that down to decommissioning activities report will 11 be that the full description of their decommissioning 12 schedule will cause, and as for the, it has to be 13 included, a discussion of how we manage their fuel.
14 I can tell you that typically, you know, 15 fuel takes a while to cool before it can all go to 16 dry storage and, you know, there's a business decision 17 they make in terms of what time they, and where they 18 go, you know, transition fuel from a pool to a dry 19 storage. They can do decommissioning for a long 20 time.
21 With fuel in the pool and using a contact 22 where they isolate the required facilities and they 23 can manage that fuel.
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101 1 the way of how they manage that fuel, and make sure 2 that however they decide to do it, it's done the safe 3 route.
4 MS. GRANATO: So what is the approximate 5 time that that decision is going to be made?
6 MR. TITUS: So there's a report that 7 they'll submit that describes the decommissioning.
8 It can be, it has to be submitted no later than two 9 years after they shut down. They can submit it before 10 then. I don't know what their timing is.
11 MS. GRANATO: Okay.
12 MR. TITUS: But you know, for full 13 transparency, they submit that plan. They provide 14 it to us, they provide costs for it. They can, and 15 licensees often do, change those plans to go to 16 decommissioning.
17 And that's what we miss as well in the, 18 you know, in the, in the big perspective of looking 19 at commissioning, make sure that they, make sure that 20 they're going to do it safe, they have the money to 21 do it, they have weighed all the risks, environmental 22 cost expenses, so that they can fully decommission 23 and clean up the site, whether, you know, the license 24 is up here.
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102 1 quick, and I'm sorry to interrupt, Toni.
2 MS. GRANATO: No.
3 MR. PELTON: Is that whether they're 4 operating or going through decommissioning, there is 5 a special presence onsite during that whole process.
6 So even the, as Amar and Liz (phonetic) 7 are there now for operating, they, as we transition 8 from an operating facility to a decommissioned 9 facility, we will continue to have inspector presence 10 through that period.
11 And then even beyond, we've got materials 12 inspectors who are experts at facilities that are, 13 you know, fully decommissioned. And they will come 14 up with some periodicity as well.
15 So we have inspector presence, you know, 16 at the facility throughout much of the time period 17 that we're discussing.
18 MS. GRANATO: How long could the spent 19 fuel be at the facility in your experience or --
20 MR. PELTON: Yes, that's as far as 21 recommended, it's really beyond my pay grade, and I 22 think for the NRC to tell you that, because it's, 23 full to disposition, it's a responsibility of all of 24 them, not just the NRC. So it'd be beyond us.
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103 1 recently in part developing an environmental impact 2 statement for our continued storage rule, that when 3 the place, it replaced what used to be called the 4 waste competence rule.
5 And it describes the NRC requirements for 6 the, for the, you know, the year term storage and it 7 kind of goes through a grade approach as far as what 8 are the requirements of licensees for the management 9 of that, of the longer term storage.
10 So I would encourage you to, if you have 11 time, take a Google on that and read through it, and 12 if you have any course, you have any quick questions 13 then, go through public affairs or otherwise contact 14 the NRC.
15 MS. GRANATO: Thank you. I just have 16 one brief statement that I wanted to make to sum up 17 kind of what are our concerns and occupation on this 18 power play.
19 So the New Jersey Sierra Club released a 20 couple of these reports, shows equipment barriers and 21 inspector violations that were discussed during my 22 comment and the question and answer portion.
23 But there have also been containment 24 leaks, compressive problems, pump problems, dry wall 25 liner erosion, and we believe that this facility is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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104 1 an accident waiting to happen and it needs to be 2 closed down as quickly as possible.
3 We also don't want to see it become 4 another inferior power plant or another, or a new 5 natural gas plant.
6 We're actively fighting natural gas 7 pipeline proposals that could easily wind up at the 8 shore here, you know, in Lacey. There is one that's 9 supposed to come from Burlington County to Ocean 10 County and Manchester.
11 So we're very concerned with the next 12 plan for this plant, and we believe, given the safety 13 implications, and given the fact that it's, this plant 14 is basically, again, severely harming the Barnegat 15 Bay, killing billions of fish per year.
16 We want to see it closed down for the 17 public's safety and their environmental impacts that 18 it's been making, and we stated, this is the oldest 19 operating plant in the country.
20 It's similar in design to Fukushima and 21 it's really time that we permanently close this plant.
22 And we do not want to see any other energy facility, 23 natural gas, power plant, or nuclear energy facility 24 at that location.
25 Thank you for this opportunity.
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105 1 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
2 MS. TAURO: When Toni was talking about 3 how long the spent fuel rods can stay there, isn't it 4 true that the NRC gives the operator 60 years to empty 5 the pool?
6 Is it true that those rods at Oyster Creek 7 could be simply stay in the pool for 60 years, that 8 that's allowed under your rules, under your 9 guidelines?
10 MR. PELTON: I think it, our 11 understanding is in part. Now, there's more to it, 12 but that's, I'm pretty sure that that 60 years is 13 discussed in the continued storage building.
14 MS. TAURO: Okay. And just, you know, I 15 appreciate the fact that you have to give assurances 16 to the public, and that you are giving assurances to 17 the public tonight.
18 But when you're talking about a, you 19 know, a quantitative list of things to go through and 20 make sure nothing's wrong, I just want to remind you 21 of the fact that during, I realize in saying it was 22 environmental groups, it was the coalition of 23 environmental groups and citizens that brought to 24 light the fact that there were portions of that dry 25 well that did not even meet the ASME code.
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106 1 So I just want to remind everybody of 2 that. That it was citizens that brought that up, and 3 it wasn't, it wasn't you guys. We brought it to your 4 attention.
5 MR. KLUKAN: Well, thank you. All right.
6 So I did promise at the outset, we went in a little 7 different course of action. I, it was a more organic 8 flow to the meeting than we normally do, but I thought 9 it was good.
10 But because I did promise at the outset 11 that there might be a second round, I'm giving it one 12 last shot. If anyone wants to have one, and this is, 13 and then we're done. This is, so, all right.
14 So it means, if you can keep fairly short, 15 we're already past our time, and then we're going to 16 wrap it up. Okay?
17 MR. MEZZER: Paul Mezzer (phonetic), and 18 (inaudible) too. Okay. So I think the concern is 19 that the licensee has more due process than the 20 public.
21 That's what, that's my takeaway from the 22 order. That the public, and they are experts. I 23 mean, we actively employ experts as Exelon.
24 But this critical order now, the Japanese 25 are, the Japan lessons learned directorate, they NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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107 1 shoot an order because there are now 32 million 2 Japanese living in contaminated land.
3 That, an area the size of Connecticut is 4 contaminated with radioactive caesium[cesium] that 5 exceeds the International Commission on Radiation 6 protection standards for public health. Okay?
7 Now Japan had to raise its permissible 8 containment aided exposure limit per citizen from 1 9 millisievert per year to 20 millisieverts per year.
10 A child in Japan, living in a Fukushima 11 prefecture will get, is allowed the same radiation 12 exposure as a worker at a nuclear power plant, 20 13 millisieverts per year.
14 So this is the, and again, we're seeing 15 this flexibility, you know, where Exelon gets to 16 challenge an order without going through a license 17 and limit process.
18 And I'll close on this. When you guys 19 issued that order, you modified the operator license.
20 When you modified operating license, that opens up a 21 set of legal obligations if you want to change it.
22 Okay?
23 A license amendment. You can go through 24 an extension but, you know, if you want to, if you 25 want to bring about a change to a modified license, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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108 1 that's called a license amendment, and that triggers 2 public process, public hearing, public disclosure.
3 It gives us an opportunity to bring in 4 our experts. We were never provided that due process 5 when you changed this order to give this plant a pass 6 on compliance with the A13109, and that's egregious 7 because you, you're supposed to work for our public 8 health and safety, not the whatever that Exelon's 9 offering you.
10 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. All right. Do 11 you want to --
12 MS. GRANATO: No.
13 MR. KLUKAN: Okay.
14 MS. GRANATO: We have a decommissioning 15 guy here. I just forgot about him and I (inaudible).
16 MS. TAURO: And that's a big deal right 17 now. No one's asking you any questions. My concern 18 is that, you know, on one hand, we'd like to empty 19 out that fuel pool, get them in dry casks because 20 it's supposed to be safer.
21 But on the other hand, now we find out 22 that these casks do not last as long as they, do not 23 last because they're not really like the European 24 ones that are very heavy-duty and they said there 25 that are cracking. Especially in areas with salt.
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109 1 I'm trying to do this fast. Therefore, 2 you're going to have to leave that fuel pool up there 3 because you're going to have to transfer these fuel 4 assemblies into different casks or during this 5 transfer, or even to transfer to travel casks if there 6 ever becomes a place to take these things. You've 7 got to have that water.
8 So I've asked the decommissioning guy if, 9 you know, what are the leads on that decommissioning 10 site for transferring, you know, leaking casks, 11 you've got to transfer it into casks that aren't 12 leaking, which I don't know how you're going to do it 13 because the company that makes, oh, the ones down in 14 Camden. Who was the ones in Camden? Yes, the Holtec 15 casks.
16 The guy who runs that said you really 17 can't do it. You can't monitor them, you can't really 18 move them, and yet you're supposed to transfer these 19 things.
20 I think that's going to be a real mess 21 for us in the, and for quite a few years, and I don't 22 see, maybe you can explain to me what has to stay 23 there, because I think the fuel pool has to stay 24 there, and I think those casks are going to have to 25 be eventually, you know, they're going to have to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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110 1 transfer into travel casks. Okay. We've talked now 2 (inaudible).
3 MR. TITUS: Well, you know, unfortunately 4 I'm not sure I'm going to have a satisfactory answer 5 for you. Spent fuel management is related to, it's 6 really not a key part of what I do to decommission.
7 We have a, spent fuel management is so 8 important that we have separate office that really 9 does oversight of those assets.
10 I'm aware of that issue with the Holtec 11 and the need to be able to transfer casks. I'm not 12 intimately involved with details or how it would apply 13 to those, Oyster Creek. If someone else is, I would 14 refer you.
15 MR. PELTON: Just I can tell you that 16 the, as long as the spent fuel, we'll start with the 17 spent fuel. As long as that is needed to store fuel, 18 it will be maintained and it will be, it will be 19 oversighted by the NRC.
20 The licensee will be required to maintain 21 it so they can appropriately store and cool the spent 22 fuel that's stored in it.
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111 1 are licensed for a finite amount of time.
2 It might've changed, but it's generally 3 20 years. And that includes their own technical 4 specifications. I'm not aware of any that, at this 5 facility particularly, that are leaking or otherwise 6 degrading.
7 But I'll tell you that they, there are 8 technical specifications at this site, do require 9 that they are adequately cooled, that there is air, 10 there's monitors to detect whether that air, if 11 there's adequate airflow around them, and alerts 12 operators to the fact that it may not be, and they 13 would take action on that.
14 And after the 20 year operating license 15 for each of those, operating license, the ISFSI 16 license, they are, and they, our Office of Nuclear 17 Material Safety and Safeguards has a new licensing 18 program that would require those to, you know, to, 19 they'll have to re-analyze, would have to be 20 reinspected.
21 And if they did not meet standards, they 22 would have to, there would have to be actions taken 23 for, you know, perhaps a new facility or a new storage 24 facility. But those provisions are provided, you 25 know, for as long as that fuel's going to be at the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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112 1 site.
2 MS. TAURO: Well, I think in this 3 concern, you know, a lot of the research on these 4 casks has happened out at San Onofre, whether they're 5 decommissioning that and finding all these problems 6 with casks.
7 So this is a, this is another problem 8 that is ongoing and no one seems to have any really 9 good answers. It's a little scary. In fact, very 10 scary.
11 Because I'm like, it's like, hey, it's 12 never been done before. It's never been really been 13 done. What do we do with this stuff long term that 14 may be going bad in the casks and we can't transfer 15 them and it's a scary proposition. Anyway, thank 16 you.
17 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. So at this 18 point, we're going to conclude the meeting. I want 19 to thank you all for attending this evening.
20 Again, this meeting was recorded and the 21 audio and the transcript will -- links to both will 22 be posted to the same Web site where you can find 23 the, and the notice for this meeting, which is on 24 there or it's a sub-meeting within the NRC Web site.
25 Again, thank you for coming. There are NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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113 1 feedback forms on the table out there. We always 2 appreciate your feedback. Again, this year we 3 recorded the meeting in response to feedback we 4 received last year.
5 So if you do have additional comments, I 6 suggest you (inaudible) the meeting, so if you could 7 write them on the comment cards, I would love to know 8 that or hear your feedback.
9 And once again, have a good night. Thank 10 you.
11 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 12 went off the record at an undisclosed time.)
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