ML030410381
| ML030410381 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Davis Besse  |
| Issue date: | 01/30/2003 |
| From: | FirstEnergy Corp, NRC/RGN-III |
| To: | |
| References | |
| Download: ML030410381 (43) | |
Text
DAVIS-BESSE NUCLEAR POWER STATION SAFETY CULTURE AND SAFETY CONSCIOUS WORK ENVIRONMENT Questions from the Public from the Open Meeting January 30, 2003 10:00 o'clock A.M.
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2 1 PRESENT FROM NRC REGION III:
2 MR. JACK GROBE MR. JIM DYER 3 MR. DAVID HILLS MR. DAVID PASSEHL 4 MS. CHRISTINE LIPA MR. GEOFF WRIGHT 5
6 PRESENT FROM NRC HEADQUARTERS (via videoconference):
7 MR. BILL DEAN MR. TONY MENDIOLA 8 MR. JON HOPKINS 9
PRESENT FROM FIRST ENERGY:
10 MR. ROBERT SAUNDERS 11 MR. LEW MYERS MR. BILL PEARCE 12 MR. RANDY FAST MS. CONNIE LINCOLN 13 MR. FRED GIESE DR. SONJA HABER 14 MR. DAN BRINDLEY MR. RANDY PATRICK 15 MS. KATHY FEHR MR. DAVE ESHELMAN 16 MR. TIM RIDLON MR. STEVE FRANTZ 17 MR. PAT NORDEN 18 19 20 21 22 COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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3 1 MR. GROBE: Thank you. At this time we'd like 2 to move into the second part of the meeting, where 3 members of the public can ask questions of the NRC 4 staff or make comments, if they so choose. This is 5 kind of a complicated situation because we have at 6 least three venues. We have folks that are here in 7 the Region III office in the Chicago, Illinois area; 8 it's possible we have some folks in headquarters, I'm 9 not sure, in the Washington, D.C. area; and we also 10 have, I think, somewhere on the order of 70 people on 11 the phone.
12 What I'd like to do is first open it 13 up to the folks here in the Region III office, then 14 move to headquarters, and then to the MCI operator 15 and allow her to moderate questions from the folks 16 that are on the phone, and then repeat that just in 17 case somebody came up with an additional question as 18 others were speaking.
19 So why don't we start here in Region 20 III with any members of the public that are here.
21 Please approach the microphone that's on my left-hand 22 side of the room, and state your name and ask your COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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4 1 question or provide your comment.
2 MR. WITT: I'm Jerre Witt, county administrator 3 for Iowa County, and also a member of the restart 4 overview panel. I just have a brief comment. It's 5 been a long meeting. It's been, I think as Jim Dyer 6 said, it's been a productive meeting in terms of 7 learning what's going on here.
8 The only comment I would like to add, 9 because we covered a lot of ground here today, is 10 that I've seen, through many observations, and I 11 think I counted up the other day just to see how many 12 times I've been to meetings on this issue with 13 Davis-Besse in the last year here, and it's somewhere 14 over 60 meetings, and some of them all day long.
15 The most important meetings I was 16 involved with was with the employees of Davis-Besse, 17 and I think the first meetings were back in August or 18 September and a successive meeting in December, and 19 then in discussions I've been involved with over time 20 with the employees. And I guess what I'd like to 21 comment on is the fact of what I have observed with 22 the employees and with the attitude change and the COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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5 1 safety culture that I believe is there with the 2 employees at this time. And I've seen many, many 3 displays of changes in that culture, and I've also 4 observed issues brought forward by the employees.
5 And I think that's important here because when it 6 really comes down to where the rubber hits the road, 7 it's really there with the employees. I think the 8 management team has certainly ingrained that culture, 9 and I think it's happening.
10 And the other one comment I would like 11 to make is I know you've talked today about how 12 certain individuals were picked for this trip as 13 employees. And having observed the comments of some 14 of these individuals in the meetings, I can assure 15 you that they weren't picked because they were coming 16 here to say the right things, because they challenged 17 us in the meetings and I know they've challenged Lew 18 and the management staff; and that's a good and 19 healthy thing, and I'm glad that these individuals 20 are here today to observe what goes on and to make 21 their truthful from-the-heart comments. Thank you.
22 MR. GROBE: Thank you, Jerre. Other individuals COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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6 1 here in the Region III office who are interested in 2 asking questions or making a comment?
3 MR. WHITCOMB: Good afternoon. My name is 4 Howard Whitcomb, and I'm a resident of Ottawa County, 5 northwest Ohio.
6 I had a number of prepared comments, 7 but I would like to focus on a couple of impressions 8 or perceptions -- that word was used this 9 afternoon -- that I've seen this afternoon. First of 10 all, I think FirstEnergy is about ready to embark or 11 is embarking upon, perhaps, one of the most critical 12 tests in its history, and that is the survey of its 13 employees in determining whether or not there's a 14 safety culture. What is disturbing is there is no 15 test acceptance criteria. Right now we're going off, 16 marching off and doing these surveys, but yet, we're 17 not sure what constitutes an acceptable level of 18 safety culture by which we can measure the results of 19 the survey. That is -- presents a particular 20 challenge, but yet that is the big picture that we 21 cannot let pass by.
22 Second of all, I had been approached COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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7 1 by several folks, FirstEnergy employees, and they 2 would like me to relay the following. Consider that 3 the current working environment at Davis-Besse 4 Nuclear plant remains hostile. Within the last two 5 weeks at least two employees who raised concerns to 6 their immediate supervisors or who stopped work for 7 safety reasons received letters of reprimand, verbal 8 threats of harm by coworkers, and/or experienced 9 damage to their personal property while onsite. That 10 is slashed tires. While both the NRC and FirstEnergy 11 managements are aware of these incidents, neither 12 organization has raised or discussed them this 13 morning. Rather, FirstEnergy leadership emphasizes 14 the development of unproven programmatic changes that 15 they are trying to put in place. Any measurable 16 indication of improvement with respect to the 17 creation of the safety conscious working environment 18 has yet to begun. Thank you.
19 MR. GROBE: Howard, a couple of observations.
20 We went through what is very clearly a complex 21 analysis that Dr. Haber is going to be leading. I 22 believe she articulated that there are some measures COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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8 1 by which she will be judging safety culture and 2 making judgments on whether individual aspects of 3 safety culture, using her tools, are present or need 4 improvement. I expect that in future public meetings 5 we'll be getting into more detail on that assessment 6 approach and the measurement technique that she's 7 using.
8 In addition, Lew and Bill presented 9 their ongoing assessment approach. We have not yet 10 seen that in writing, other than these slides, and 11 we'll be looking at that in more detail also. I 12 appreciate your comments in that regard.
13 On the second issue that you raised, 14 I'm very interested in additional details on the 15 specific examples, of course privately, that you 16 raised. We are unaware of the examples that you 17 raised. You stated that both NRC and FirstEnergy is 18 aware of that. That's not true. We are not aware of 19 that, but we would appreciate any specific 20 information that you would have on specific concerns 21 of a lack of a safety conscious work environment at 22 Davis-Besse.
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9 1 MR. WHITCOMB: I believe two folks from Region 2 III have already spoken to one of the individuals. I 3 don't know what the results of that investigation are 4 at this point.
5 MR. GROBE: Well, we should do this privately.
6 Actually, Brent, could you raise your hand? Brent 7 Clayton is the person I'd like you to talk with, if 8 you don't mind. Thank you.
9 Okay. Any other members of the public 10 here in Region III that desire to make a comment or 11 ask a question?
12 MR. DYER: I'd just like to comment on one of 13 Howard's questions, and let me ask FirstEnergy too.
14 The issue of acceptance criteria, again, I view this 15 as -- we heard the framework and that. What is the 16 -- I mean, you have benchmarking and comparisons and 17 that. Is it your intent to have your evaluation 18 criteria as you go in, or is this going to be a 19 consulting report made by -
20 MR. MYERS: I don't know if I know the answer to 21 that. Right now our process will have us asssess the 22 areas that I told you about. We will not -- if we COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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10 1 assess those areas as red, we would not do something 2 before we change modes or restart it ourselves. Then 3 we would look to our oversight panel, the restart 4 oversight panel, to provide us input. And if we had 5 multiple areas that were all yellow, we would be very 6 concerned about that too. So our intention is to 7 assess ourselves. Some things are objective -- are 8 subjective prior to each basic change in plant 9 conditions, and we won't move forward until we're 10 comfortable that we should move forward.
11 MR. DYER: What I was referring to is some of 12 them are subjective, but some of them are objective.
13 You had ratios and you talk about numbers and things 14 like that; and I guess, in my mind, when Howard asked 15 that question, the question I had is do you develop 16 your acceptance criteria before or after you see the 17 results?
18 MR. MYERS: No, no. Before. We've got goals on 19 all those things.
20 MR. DYER: Okay. Because I didn't ask that -
21 MR. MYERS: You know, for corrective maintenance 22 backlog, we have a goal right now, I think -- we came COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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11 1 down, we were going around 250 corrective maintenance 2 backlog area. That's rough, you know, but we intend 3 to be in that same range when we restart, you know, 4 from a corrective standpoint. So you know, not only 5 have we done all the things that we're doing, we've 6 maintained material condition at the plant. We have 7 goals in those areas; rework goals, stuff like that.
8 We have all that.
9 MR. DYER: Okay. So then you understand you're 10 going to establish acceptance criteria before you get 11 the results and you come up with your color scheme on 12 your thresholds?
13 MR. MYERS: Right.
14 MR. DYER: Okay.
15 MR. GROBE: Okay. Thanks, Jim.
16 Any other questions or comments from 17 members of the public that are here in Region III?
18 Bill Dean in headquarters, do you have 19 any folks there that have questions or comments?
20 MR. DEAN: There are no members of the public in 21 our meeting.
22 MR. GROBE: Okay, great. I'd like now to turn COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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12 1 it over to the MCI operator and let her moderate any 2 questions from folks that are on the phone.
3 MCI OPERATOR: Thank you, sir. For any 4 participants on the audio portion, if you would like 5 to ask a question, you may press Star 1, and you will 6 be announced prior to asking your question. If you 7 withdraw your question, you may press Star 2. Once 8 again, to ask a question, please press Star 1.
9 We do have a question from Paul 10 Ridzon.
11 MR. RIDZON: Good afternoon. This is Paul 12 Ridzon at McDonald Investments. I think this topic 13 was touched on by some questions from headquarters, 14 but it did not come through the phone lines very 15 clearly. It appears as though FENOC has established 16 some pretty comprehensive metrics. I'm wondering if 17 that was basically the desired outcome of the meeting 18 today or whether you wanted to see some 19 quantification of those metrics or any actual 20 discussion of trends in those metrics and whether 21 that, getting those items, the quantifications or 22 trends, is going to be paramount to actually have COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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13 1 that information before you allow a restart?
2 MR. GROBE: Paul, could you spell your last 3 name?
4 MR. RIDZON: R-I-D-Z-0-N.
5 MR. GROBE: R-I-D-Z-O-N. Thank you. First, the 6 purpose of this meeting was not to specifically 7 discuss performance indicators as much as it was to 8 gain a comprehensive insight as to the activities, 9 corrective actions that FirstEnergy has undertaken, 10 as well as understand how they're going to be 11 measuring safety culture and safety conscious work 12 environment going forward. We did not receive today, 13 I don't believe, any specific quantified performance 14 indicators, so I don't have a response to that part 15 of your question.
16 The second part of your question 17 concerned restart. And maybe it would be helpful 18 just to explain a little bit of the restart process.
19 There's an oversight panel that is comprised of the 20 people here in the region, NRC employees here in the 21 regional office, in our headquarters offices and at 22 the Davis-Besse facility, who are monitoring and COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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14 1 assessing licensee performance.
2 At some point in time I anticipate 3 FirstEnergy will believe that they're prepared to 4 restart the plant, at which time they will meet with 5 the NRC in conformance and describe their basis or 6 their belief that they're ready to restart the 7 plant. The oversight panel will have been and 8 continues to monitor FirstEnergy performance, and 9 would provide its insights to Jim Dyer. The plant 10 would not be -- the NRC would not approve restart of 11 the plant until the oversight panel made a 12 recommendation to Jim and he were to accept that 13 recommendation; and he would do so in consultation 14 with the offices of nuclear reactor regulation and 15 headquarters and the executive director of operations 16 in headquarters. So it's a process that moves 17 forward.
18 One of the elements of the process -
19 it's guided, the process is guided by what we call a 20 restart checklist, and one of the elements on the 21 checklist is management and human performance.
22 Within that aspect of the checklist is the topic that COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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15 1 we were talking about today, and that is the safety 2 conscious work environment at the facility and the 3 safety culture. And Geoff Wright here with us today 4 led the first phase of inspection into that area, and 5 we have additional inspections planned. We've also 6 been regularly attending a variety of the corrective 7 actions the FirstEnergy employees described in the 8 first part of today's meeting. So we have a number 9 of inspection insights to date that the panel has at 10 its disposal for considering performance at 11 FirstEnergy, and we will have a number of additional 12 inspections before the panel would make a judgment on 13 that specific aspect of the restart checklist, and 14 that is the management and human performance aspect.
15 So I think I've answered your 16 question. Do you have any other issues or questions 17 with the information I've provided?
18 MR. RIDZON: No. Just a follow-up, though.
19 You've got to close each meeting with a "we continue 20 to see slow and continual progress." I mean, is that 21 how you close this meeting?
22 MR. GROBE: Well, this was a different kind of COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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1 meeting. I think what you're talking about is my 2 normal meetings out in Oak Harbor area where we meet 3 with the company monthly to receive performance 4 assessment. We didn't really receive a broad 5 dissertation on progress that the licensee has made 6 today, so I don't think, based on what we've heard 7 today, I would make such a statement. But 8 specifically in this one area, I think the 9 information that they've shared with us today has 10 been -- has met my expectations for what we wanted to 11 accomplish today, and that is that we have a 12 comprehensive description of the corrective actions 13 that they're taking, as well as our first thorough 14 discussion on how the company plans on measuring 15 safety culture going forward. So we've seen progress 16 in these areas, as far as articulating comprehensive 17 and corrective actions and articulating in a cogent 18 manner how they're going to be measuring safety 19 culture. So that is progress, but I don't want you 20 to infer that that's an assessment of overall plant 21 performance.
22 MR. RIDZON: Thank you very much, Jack.
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17 1 MCI OPERATOR: The next question comes from 2 Billie Garde.
3 MS. GARDE: Hello?
4 MR. GROBE: Yes. Can you state your name and 5 spell it, please.
6 MS. GARDE: This is Billie Garde, G-A-R-D-E.
7 MR. GROBE: Go ahead, Billie.
8 MS. GARDE: I have a couple of questions. First 9 of all, I've reviewed the procedure on -- or the 10 policy for maintaining safety conscious work 11 environment issued by Mr. Saunders on November 21st, 12 2002, and the kind of companion statement by Lew 13 Myers.
14 First of all, what we've heard today 15 is certainly far beyond what was set forth in the 16 November policy, and I assume there will be a 17 revision of this policy issued that captures the 18 commitments that were laid out today. I'm not sure 19 of that, but I'm assuming that.
20 But one of the things that was not 21 addressed today and I'm concerned that the NRC look 22 into this, is the expression in both the policy COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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18 1 statement and Mr. Myers' statement that workers can 2 raise concerns or they prefer to raise them up the 3 chain of command, and if not the chain of command, to 4 the NRC. That is maintained kind of throughout all 5 of the documents, including a kind of disturbing 6 statement in the policies, that 3.5.4, that says 7 failure of a FENOC employee to comply with this 8 policy may result in disciplinary action up to and 9 including termination. As you know, the law provides 10 the right of employees to contact anyone, if 11 necessary, to resolve concerns, and I'm sure if the 12 only choice a worker had last year regarding the 13 corrosion would have been to go to the newspaper, 14 that that would have been preferable to not at all.
15 And so I'm concerned that that aspect of their policy 16 be addressed directly by the agency.
17 MR. GROBE: Billie, I appreciate your comments.
18 I think I heard two specific things that we need to 19 move forward on, or at least I can comment on.
20 The first one had to do with whether 21 or not the policy that FirstEnergy has issued needs 22 revision following today's presentation, and I ask COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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19 1 Lew to respond to that.
2 MR. MYERS: What I think she's reading is the 3 policy on safety conscious work environment. There's 4 also another policy on safety culture that -- so 5 there's two policies. And under safety conscious 6 work environment, the intent there was, you know, our 7 corrective action program is our main frame of 8 finding and fixing problems, and that's the way we do 9 probably 90 percent of our problems. If an employee 10 is not happy with that, then there's other avenues up 11 through the management train, to me or to our 12 employee concerns program or quality programs; and if 13 they're not happy with that, they're perfectly 14 acceptable to go to the NRC, you know. And they can 15 use any of those at any time. You know, assuming 16 you're using one of those, you know, we certainly 17 would not think that anyone would be disciplined, you 18 know, in any way, but you know, in our mind, we think 19 if you've got a safety concern, then use one of those 20 -- using one of those avenues is definitely one of 21 our requirements. So that's the way we think our 22 policy is written.
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20 1 Now, I'll go back and review it based 2 on your comments, but you know, I read -- I've never 3 read it quite the way you're reading it. It's 4 interesting. So we'll go back and take a look at 5 it. Thank you for your comment, though.
6 MR. GROBE: And Billie, I hope that any employee 7 at any of our nuclear plants would first raise a 8 concern to the company, and if they don't have 9 confidence in the company or the employee concerns 10 program, that they would come to us. I would be 11 disappointed if their first choice was to go to the 12 media, simply because the media has no capability or 13 responsibility or authority to ensure the safety of 14 the nuclear plant. So I would hope that an employee 15 would come forward to those folks that can fix the 16 problem and have that responsibility first. But I 17 understand your question, that it would not seem to 18 be appropriate to eliminate all that use of bringing 19 issues forward as a performance matter. So I 20 appreciate your comment. Did you have any follow-up 21 questions?
22 MS. GARDE: I do. I don't want to get into COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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21 1 debate, but I really do recommend that you review the 2 law that's available to protect employees for raising 3 concerns and recognizes that the employee has the 4 right to go wherever they believe they need to go to 5 have a concern addressed, because they can't possibly 6 second-guess the circumstances that they find 7 themselves in to raise that issue.
8 The second -- actually it's an 9 observation on the presentation today, is there was a 10 number of references to the employee concerns 11 program, and I, just as a member of the interested 12 public here, haven't seen anything that is available 13 for public review about the current ECP program. I 14 know that it has been under development, there's been 15 a lot of things to it. There was reference today of 16 using some independent people. But the last thing I 17 ever saw, other than what I heard today, was that the 18 ombudsman program at the site was -- had very little 19 procedures, had very little structure to it, no 20 formal policy on confidentiality, and wasn't tracked 21 and trended in a way that most ECP programs are. The 22 representations today are there have been those COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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22 1 changes made, and I would hope that the NRC would 2 review that or ask for a presentation specifically on 3 the strength of their employee concerns program and 4 how it operates in a way that the public, certainly 5 informed public could review to make some kind of 6 determination on the strength of that program.
7 If the plan, as I assume it is, is to 8 restart the plant before -- or at least to hope the 9 NRC will approve restart of the plant before cultural 10 changes have really been able to take hold and a lot 11 of these changes are identified and worked out, the 12 quality and the rigor of an employee concerns program 13 as an alternative is critical. So I don't think it's 14 kind of just one of the building blocks that we can 15 get summary information on. I think it's critical 16 for public confidence to have a lot better 17 understanding of how that program works.
18 My final comment really is a 19 combination of response to the doctor's 20 identification of how she's going to deal with 21 anecdotal issues that come up within the context of 22 the interviews, and I guess from my perspective as a COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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23 1 member of the Millstone review team, which did very 2 similar work to what she is describing, although 3 it's -- certainly we had a lot more than four people 4 over two weeks in terms of identifying issues.
5 Setting that aside and assuming she can do a job 6 consistent with her methodology that she's set out, I 7 would be very concerned that anecdotal issues that 8 she captures in employee structured interviews or 9 surveys are captured in some manner to evaluate 10 because I will tell you that the depth and breadth of 11 what changed Millstone was responding to the specific 12 anecdotal examples that were inconsistent with many 13 of the kind of broad-based inclusions and objectives 14 that management had. It is at that level. That is 15 on the individual behavior level between managers and 16 supervisors that you really test whether you've got a 17 safety culture that's working in accordance with the 18 goals and desires and visions that you've set out, 19 and rejection of anecdotal evidence because they're 20 one-time events and not -- I'm not saying they have 21 to be included in a way different than other 22 methodology, but they certainly can't be lost.
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24 1 Those are my comments. There's a lot 2 of material presented today. Unfortunately, I was 3 not available to follow with the written material as 4 well as you on the phone to be able to study that.
5 And other questions or comments I have I will put in 6 writing.
7 MR. GROPE: Thanks, Billie. Let me, Bill, do 8 you want to comment on the status of the 9 formalization of the procedure for safety conscious 10 work environment?
11 MR. PEARCE: Yes, I'll be glad to. We do have 12 the process all written up. It is, as she describes, 13 a formal process. It will formally protect 14 confidentiality as the process, and that's all in 15 there. I've already reviewed it. We're on the very 16 last stages of getting the formal written process in 17 place. I expect it's going to be out within the next 18 week or so. And in fact, at the next public meeting 19 we can report on the status of that, Jack.
20 MR. GROBE: Thank you. That would be great.
21 I'd -- Billie keyed a question in my mind. I guess 22 I'm a member of the public. I can ask questions.
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25 1 MR. MYERS: Can I answer?
2 MR. GROBE: Sure.
3 MR. MYERS: I think I have the policy in front 4 of me here, and the way it reads is "FENOC is 5 committed to maintaining a workplace with zero 6 tolerance for harassment, intimidation, retaliation, 7 or discrimination against individuals who raise 8 safety concerns. It's our first mission to not cause 9 or participate in any form of harassment, 10 intimidation, retaliation or discrimination of any 11 individual working at FENOC site. Failure of a FENOC 12 employee to comply with this policy may result in 13 disciplinary action up to and including 14 termination." That's if you intimidate or harass 15 someone, you know.
16 MR. GROBE: I appreciate your observation, Lew.
17 I think the specific question that Billie raised had 18 to do with if an individual lacks confidence in you 19 folks, your employee concerns program, and somehow 20 lacks confidence in the NRC, it could be construed as 21 going to the media or the public or a lawyer as being 22 a violation of your policy, which would be actionable COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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26 1 and-2 MR. MYERS: That's not what that's written for.
3 MR. GROBE: Right. I understand. But if it's 4 clear in your mind, that's fine. If it's ambiguous 5 in some respects and warrants revision, that's fine 6 too. I think the request was to take a look at it.
7 MR. PEARCE: We'll certainly go back and review 8 it in that regard.
9 MR. GROBE: Thank you. And the second half of 10 the question had to do with specific information that 11 is received during the course of interviews. If 12 there's a specific bit of information received in the 13 interviews that would indicate a violation of 14 requirements or a problem at the station, is the 15 review that Dr. Haber is doing going to be plugged in 16 somehow with your corrective action program?
17 MR. PEARCE: What we intend there -- what I 18 intend; I'm speaking for QA now, not the line 19 organization -- what I intend to do was to go review 20 some of that material after she was done to look for 21 that kind of thing. And because, I mean, there's a 22 certain set of expertise that's required in some COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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27 1 areas to understand some of the technical issue. But 2 that's what my intention was.
3 Now, she raises a good point. Are we 4 going to collect all the anecdotal information? I 5 don't know. We'll have to think about that and look 6 at it, and I'll have some conversation with Dr. Haber 7 afterwards and see if I can figure out how to do 8 that.
9 MR. GROBE: I think it's important to not lose 10 the information that's collected, and particularly 11 important that if some of the information provided in 12 response to a question indicates a problem at the 13 plant, that that get into the corrective action 14 program. So I don't know how those interfaces work, 15 but I think those are important connections to make.
16 MR. PEARCE: Right. But it's going to take 17 someone outside in our organization to understand 18 what to put in and what not to.
19 MR. GROBE: I didn't say it was simple. I just 20 said it was important.
21 MR. PEARCE: That's why I said we will review it 22 afterwards and see what there is there.
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28 1 MR. GROBE: Okay. Billie, did we answer all 2 your questions?
3 MS. GARDE: You answered my questions. I'm 4 concerned about this anecdotal thing, capturing the 5 information that, you know, if she's asking 6 employees -- just two examples, are you aware of 7 issues that should have been raised that aren't -
8 and I don't know if that's one of her questions -
9 and the answer to that question is yes, I think that 10 has to be captured in a timely and effective manner 11 and run to ground through some process.
12 I, of course, would not want her to 13 have the credibility and integrity of independence 14 over process compromised, but that really is the meat 15 of her work or the possibility of her work outside of 16 drawing kind of broad organizational conclusions. I 17 mean, you could reject five specific examples and not 18 include them, and they would blow a hole in the whole 19 organizational conclusion if you don't capture them 20 correctly and run them to ground correctly. So I'm 21 going to be looking at, you know, when this whole 22 thing comes to fruition, not just the broad COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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29 1 organizational conclusions, what did people say about 2 what their day-to-day work was? Or even, I guess 3 since I don't know her questions, I don't even know 4 if the questions are going to provide an opportunity 5 beyond, you know, multiple choice or single-word 6 answers to give examples.
7 But her discussion of rejection of 8 anecdotal issues concerns me because it just raises 9 a whole host of other questions which I've highlightd 10 on, and I'm sure you can pull the strings further, 11 but you see what my concern is -
12 MR. GROBE: I appreciate your thoughts, 13 Billie. I think they're very well taken. And during 14 the course of our inspection of this activity, we'll 15 make sure that we touch on those issues. Thank you 16 very much.
17 MCI OPERATOR: Our next question comes from Paul 18 Blanche.
19 MR. BLANCHE: Hi. This is Paul Blanche. Can 20 you hear me?
21 MR. GROBE: Yes.
22 MR. BLANCHE: I know many of you people know COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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30 1 me. I've spent 25 years at Millstone through the 2 rise and fall and so on and so forth.
3 The first comment -- I have three or 4 four comments I'd like to make reinforcing what 5 Billie said about the procedure for reporting safety 6 concerns. In an ideal world we'd like to have all 7 employees feel comfortable bringing their concerns 8 through management. That's what we strived for and 9 eventually achieved at Millstone. And if they are 10 not comfortable going to management, we encourage 11 them to go to other avenues, such as the employee 12 concerns program, ombudsman program, Little Harbor -
13 which Billie worked for -- media, politicians, 14 courts, lawyers, public interest groups, so on and so 15 forth.
16 Let me just read from the root cause 17 analysis report which was produced by Valerie 18 Barnes -- and by the way, I think it was an excellent 19 report. And I'll just quote here. It states, "The 20 operations standards and expectations documents will 21 address (audio cut out) in operations by including 22 expectations for operational personnel to raise any COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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31 1 operational concerns. It also contains the 2 requirement for operations person (audio cut out) 3 leadership and resolving concerns by continuing to 4 escalate them through their management chain, up to 5 and including the president of FENOC until resolution 6 is obtained. Davis-Besse and FENOC senior management 7 expect operations personnel to inform the NRC of 8 their concerns if management does not address the 9 concerns to their satisfaction.,,
10 I agree with Billie 100 percent. That 11 sends the wrong message, and in fact may even create 12 its own chilling effect. I communicated that to Mr.
13 Randy Huey with my thoughts on that already. That's 14 a comment, and it just reinforces what Billie said.
15 Comment on the operations root cause 16 analysis done by Valerie Barnes, I thought was 17 excellent. It was candid and very well done. But 18 reading that and knowing Millstone, I think you have 19 symptoms of the safety conscious work environment 20 that indicate to me it could be worse than Millstone 21 was ever. For example, Davis-Besse has already in 22 the year 2002 received 14 concerns related to COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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32 1 discrimination, and over 40 concerns. These numbers 2 are higher than Millstone from 1997 on. That's the 3 only data I have from the NRC. Further, there are 4 still 23 open concerns with Davis-Besse.
5 Next comment is it appears as though 6 Dr. Haber is measuring the safety culture. While 7 that's an important measurement, I think what we're 8 really concerned about is measuring the quality of 9 the safety conscious work environment. I'm not sure 10 how that is going to be done within Dr. Haber's 11 work.
12 The other problem I have is -- was 13 mentioned before. There is no benchmarking of the 14 survey. I realize that Dr. Haber has done a lot of 15 work in foreign utilities, but foreign utilities 16 certainly have their own cultures. I don't know of 17 any benchmarking that can be done versus other 18 utilities such as Millstone and other utilities who 19 have had similar problems. My only question is -
20 well, I'll make a statement first. At Millstone we 21 have a vice president, Mike Brothers, that was 22 appointed the point person to lead the safety COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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33 1 conscious work environment. He did a great job.
2 Does Davis-Besse have a designated overall officer 3 for the safety conscious work environment? And from 4 now on I'll just listen to the responses, if there 5 are any. Thank you.
6 MR. GROBE: Wow. I think the question is pretty 7 easy to answer. The safety conscious work 8 environment function reports to the vice president of 9 oversight, Bill Pearce. So I think that's the answer 10 to your question.
11 I hope encouraging employees to bring 12 their concerns to plant management and to the NRC 13 doesn't send the wrong message, but I completely 14 recognize the observations that you and Billie have 15 made from the perspective of coming from Millstone 16 and other locations when there was a challenging 17 environment, that it's not appropriate to send the 18 message that if they go elsewhere, it would be a 19 failure to follow company expectations and would be 20 actionable as a personnel matter. So that's 21 something that I think FirstEnergy has already taken 22 on board and agreed to go back and look at.
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34 1 I appreciate your comments, Paul, and 2 we'll continue to look at this. And I do receive 3 input from you on a fairly regular basis through 4 e-mail, so I appreciate that too. Thank you.
5 Other questions or comments?
6 MCI OPERATOR: We do have a question from Daniel 7 Horner.
8 MR. HORNER: Hi. I apologize if this question 9 was covered already. I was off the phone for some 10 brief periods during the course of the meeting. But 11 Lew Myers sort of sketched out what the criteria are 12 for when FENOC feels that it will be ready to go 13 ahead with restart, but I don't have a clear idea of 14 what NRC feels are the criteria in terms of safety 15 conscious work environment for going ahead with 16 restart. What sort of changes -- presumably 17 submission of reports themselves are not sufficient.
18 At least, that's what I gather. But how far along 19 does the process have to be, and how are you going to 20 measure that in order to reach a point where you can 21 say yes, we've gotten to that point now and it's all 22 right to go ahead to restart, at least in terms of COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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1 this one category?
2 MR. GROBE: Dan, thanks for the question.
3 That's Dan Horner, H-O-R-N-E-R. It's a good 4 question.
5 The commission's policy very clearly 6 articulates that each licensee is expected to have a 7 safety -- an organizational focus that allows issues 8 to be brought up and categorized and dealt with 9 according to their safety significance. So the first 10 answer to your question is when FirstEnergy 11 demonstrates that that exists, that will be a 12 benchmark. Beyond that, we will be performing 13 inspections of their implementation of the corrective 14 actions program, the safety conscious work 15 environment program, and this assessment in the 16 management human performance area, and we'll be 17 reporting on those inspection results publicly and 18 publishing them, and that will go into the assessment 19 that the panel will make to determine whether or not 20 the plant is ready to restart.
21 MR. HORNER: But do you have -- I mean, there 22 was a question as of FENOC, if they have test COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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1 acceptance criteria. Do you have criteria in mind 2 now that they have to get up to such and such a level 3 before you say go ahead?
4 MR. GROBE: I'm not aware of any specific 5 criteria in any of these areas. You speak of such 6 and such a level. I'm not aware of any criteria of 7 that nature. What we will do is, once FirstEnergy 8 documents their process for measuring safety culture 9 going forward, we'll evaluate that and follow their 10 monitoring of it and evaluate their assessment in 11 that area and make our own independent assessment and 12 then make a judgment. There isn't an objective 13 number, you know, when you get to four, it's okay.
14 It doesn't work that way. There is subjectivity 15 involved in this.
16 MR. HORNER: But the problem really -- isn't 17 there sort of an inherent Catch-22, that you can't 18 really know if they're adhering to this until you see 19 how they're doing with a plant under normal 20 operations? But in order to do that, you have to 21 allow them to restart. How do you get around that?
22 MR. GROBE: The panel has to make a judgment COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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37 1 that it believes that the activities have been 2 adequately completed to address the issues in the 3 restart checklist and that there's sufficient 4 confidence going forward that the plant can be safely 5 restarted and operated. Part of that assessment is 6 going to include a readiness for restart inspection 7 that will address both the operations and other 8 supporting organizations' readiness to operate the 9 plant safely, and that inspection will include 10 round-the-clock observation of operators in the 11 control room, activities in the plant at a time when 12 a significant amount of the equipment has been 13 returned to service and the operating environment is 14 challenging, probably more challenging than a normal 15 operating plant would be. So it will be a good 16 indicator of the operator's readiness to operate the 17 plant. And those inspections will occur within a few 18 weeks prior to the panel considering the question of 19 whether the plant is ready to restart.
20 MR. HORNER: Several weeks -- that probably 21 takes a few weeks, you said?
22 MR. GROBE: The inspection is likely to span a COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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38 1 couple of weeks, and it will occur at a time when the 2 plant has returned a significant amount of equipment 3 to service. So that would be sometime around the 4 second time the plant goes to Mode 4, operating Mode 5 4. That's not in the near future.
6 MR. HORNER: Thank you very much.
7 MCI OPERATOR: Our next question comes from Joe 8 Carson.
9 MR. CARSON: Yes, sir. I'm Joe Carson. I work 10 as a nuclear safety engineer for the Department of 11 Energy. Can you hear me?
12 MR. GROBE: Yes.
13 MR. CARSON: Okay. I'm a licensed professional 14 engineer, and I have been in -- I'm a whistle blower 15 also in the Department of Energy. And I haven't 16 heard today -- I've been listening, I think, to 17 almost everything -- I haven't heard anything about 18 the relevancy of engineering ethics and/or 19 professional engineering licensure to the Davis-Besse 20 situation. And I guess my question is if it's not 21 relevant, then I question why there should be PE 22 licensure; and if it is relevant, why it's not being COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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39 1 identified as such.
2 MR. GROBE: It's a -- I appreciate the 3 question. It's a very interesting question, and 4 we've had some interaction with the State of Ohio on 5 this question. I don't believe there is anything at 6 a nuclear plant that is dealing with nuclear safety 7 that requires a professional engineering 8 certification.
9 As you're well aware, professional 10 engineering certifications are required for various 11 engineering activities, but the NRC regulates the 12 engineering quality at a nuclear power plant for 13 those activities that affect nuclear safety. I don't 14 want you to infer that ethical conduct is any less 15 important because there is not a requirement for 16 licensure by the state as a professional engineer, 17 and we have very clear requirements on the 18 responsibilities each individual, as well as the 19 company, has to follow regulations. And those are 20 issues that we would follow up on if they became 21 apparent. So it's -- a professional engineer license 22 is not required to express engineering judgments to COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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40 1 approve engineering documents affecting -
2 MR. CARSON: I understand it's not required and 3 it's not required because the State of Ohio has 4 what's called an industrial exemption. It's really 5 not because of the NRC. It's because of the 6 industrial exemption. But FirstEnergy could, on its 7 own, say, "independent of the industrial exemption, 8 we want our engineers to be licensed.,, If they were 9 were licensed, they would be just as subject to the 10 jurisdiction of the Ohio state board as any other 11 engineer who needed to be licensed. So that's my -
12 if FirstEnergy seems to be saying, "we're doing 13 everything we can with respect to safety," this seems 14 to be something -- engineering licensure is all about 15 public health and safety and creating an independent 16 legal accountability for it and obligation for it.
17 Could this also be a -- not required, I agree, but 18 just an appropriate means to be evaluated? There's 19 nothing that stops it. Let me put it that way.
20 MR. GROBE: I appreciate your comments, and 21 FirstEnergy has heard them. We believe that the NRC 22 has appropriate regulations and oversight of the COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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41 I behavior of people at nuclear power plants, but I 2 appreciate your comments. Thank you very much.
3 MCI OPERATOR: At this time we show no further 4 questions.
5 MR. GROBE: Okay. Are there any other questions 6 here in Region III?
7 MS. LIPA: I'd like to make one comment. This 8 was a person who comes to a lot of our public 9 meetings who was not able to be here, so she sent 10 some comments in, and her name is Donna Lueke. And 11 her comments were in the areas of making public 12 safety a part of every corporate document at 13 FirstEnergy and then also taking safety culture 14 lessons learned from Davis-Besse and applying those 15 to other nuclear power plants. And we will be making 16 her comments part of the minutes from this meeting.
17 MR. GROBE: Thank you, Christine. Could you also 18 provide a copy of that to FirstEnergy so if there's 19 something specific about Davis-Besse, they don't have 20 to wait for several weeks to get the transcripts?
21 MS. LIPA: Yes, I will.
22 MR. GROBE: Thank you.
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42 1 Operator, are there any additional 2 questions or comments at this time?
3 MCI OPERATOR: We show no further questions.
4 MR. GROBE: Okay. Thank you very much.
5 With that, we'll adjourn the meeting.
6 Thank you very much.
7 (Which were all the proceedings 8 held in the above-entitled 9 cause on this date.)
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43 1 STATE OF ILLINOIS SS:
2 COUNTY OF DU PAGE 3
4 5
6 I, MARY N. LEAHY, C.S.R., Notary Public 7 duly qualified and commissioned for the State of Illinoi, 8 County of DuPage, do hereby certify that I reported in 9 shorthand the proceedings had and testimony taken at the 10 hearing of the above-entitled cause, and that the 11 foregoing transcript is a true, correct and complete 12 excerpt report of the entire testimony so taken at 13 the time and place hereinabove set forth.
14 CERTI FYD S HORTHANb REPORTER 16 Notary Public License No. 084-002409.
17 18 "OFFICIAL SEAL" 19 MARY N. LEAHY NOTARY PU8LJC, STATE OF ILLINOIS 20 My COMMISSION EXPIRES 6/30/2006 21 22 COUNTY COURT REPORTERS, INC.
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