ML15148A377

Official Transcript of Proceedings, Category 3 Public Meeting to Discuss the Zion License Termination Plan, April 28, 2015, Zion, Il

ML15148A377
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Official Transcript of ProceedingsNUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSIONCategory 3 Public Meeting to Discuss the ZionLicense Termination PlanTitle:Docket Number:Location:Date:05000295 and 05000304Zion, IllinoisApril 28, 2015Work Order No.:NRC-1 518Pages 1-99NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.Court Reporters and Transcribers1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.Washington, D.C. 20005(202) 234-4433 1UNITED STATES OF AMERICABEFORE THE NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSIONCategory 3 Public Meeting to Discuss theZion License Termination PlanDocket Nos. 05000295 and 05000304++++ +TUESDAYAPRIL 28, 2015+ + + + +ILLINOIS BEACH RESORT & CONFERENCE CENTER1 LAKE FRONT DRIVEZION, ILLINOIS+ + + + +The above-entitled matter commenced pursuant toNotice before Bruce Watson, Facilitator.NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 2PRESENT:Bruce Watson, NRC Branch Chief / FacilitatorJohn Hickman, NRC Project ManagerRobert Orlikowski, NRC Branch ChiefBill Lin, NRC InspectorDaniel Strohmeyer, NRC InspectorRex Edwards, NRC Dry Cask Storage InspectorWayne Slawinski, NRC, Lead InspectorViktoria Mitlyng, NRC Public Affairs OfficerPrema Chandrathil, NRC Public Affairs OfficerMichael Dusaniwskyj, NRC EconomistMarlayna Vaaler, NRC Project ManagerJohn Clements, NRC Health PhysicistKaren Pinkston, NRC Systems Performance AnalystHaimanot Yilma, NRC Project ManagerKellee Jamerson, NRC Environmental ScientistAllen Bjornsen, NRC Project ManagerNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 2344433 3TABLE OF CONTENTSPageIntroductions, Opening Remarks, and Statementof Purpose .................................. 4NRC Regulatory Process ............................ 8NRC Inspection and Oversight Program .............. 12License Termination Plan Content .................. 15Public Comments and Questions ..................... 27NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701(202) 234-4433(202) 234-4433 4PRO CE EDI NG S(6:01 P.M.)MR. WATSON: If we can all have a seat,we'd like to get started please.I'd like to welcome everyone here tonightand thank you for coming, taking time out of your busyschedules to be here. My name is Bruce Watson. I'mChief of the Reactor Decommissioning Branch and I workout of our office of Nuclear Materials Safety andSafeguards in Rockville, Maryland.This is an NRC Category 3 meeting, and thatmeans we are here to solicit comments from the publicon the Zion Nuclear Power Plant license terminationplan. So, you're going to hear us refer to the LTP alot just to be short.A few of the housekeeping issues, there areemergency exits at both sides of the back of this room.Restrooms are down in front, by the front desk. Thismeeting is being recorded by a court reporter. Thetranscript will be made available on the NRC websiteonce we get it from them and also have it, what do youNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 5call that?MR. ORLIKOWSKI: Transcribed.MR. WATSON: Transcribed with subtitles,right?Okay. We are going to be from 6:00 to 9:00p.m. tonight. We have the room until 9:00, I don'tthink we'll be going over that or be able to. As a firstissue of record, we do ask for your feedback. There'sforms in the back. There is also a brochure in the backon decommissioning, just general information on thedecommissioning process for reactors.Are there any public officials that wouldlike to be recognized tonight as being here? Go ahead.MR. RANKIN: Tom Rankin, representingSheri Jesiel, State Rep for 61.MR. WATSON: Okay. Any others?MR. McDOWELL: Mike McDowell,Commissioner-Elect for the city of Zion.PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: Felipe Landa forCongressman Bob Dold, the 10th District, Illinois.MS. SHADNIA: Sarah Shadnia, Sarah with anH, and last name Shadnia, S-h-a-d-n-i-a, for StateSenator Melinda Bush.MR. WATSON: Okay. Any others? Well,NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 6thank you for coming this evening.Let's go to our agenda. So, I'm going tosay a few words on our mission. John Hickman who's theproject manager for the Zion, from NRC headquarterswill give a few words on the regulatory process. BobOrlikowski who is from our Region III office will talkabout the inspection and oversight program. And thenZion Solutions has volunteered, too loud?PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: No, we can't hearyou.MR. WATSON: You can't hear me?PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: No.MR. WATSON: Oh, okay, we'll bring it backup a little closer. Is that better?PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: No.MR. WATSON: No? Okay, how is that? Twoinches away, wow, close. All right. And ZionSolutions has volunteered to do a presentation on theactual content of their LTP. So, beginning with that,I'd like to go to the next slide.The NRC has a fairly long history ofdecommissioning facilities. Our regulations wentinto effect, the current ones, in 1997. And since thattime, we have terminated the license on seven largeNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433* o 7power reactors. In reality, we have done 10 in thepast, but seven under the current regulations. We'vealso terminated the license on about 30 researchreactors, and over 80 complex materials sites. Nextslide.Our mission, which is granted to us underthe Atomic Energy Act, we regulate the nation's civiluse of reactor materials to protect public health andsafety, promote the common. defense and security, andto protect the environment. Next slide.The decommissioning regulations, parts ofthose are in Part 10 CFR 20, Sub-part E, but the reactorones are in 10 CFR 50.82, just in case anybody is reallyinterested in that. But by definition,decommissioning is to safely remove from service andreduce the radioactivity levels that permit either therelease of the site for unrestricted use andtermination of license, or for restricted use andtermination of the license. Go the next slide please.For unrestricted use, here are thecriteria, and also the restricted release criteria.To date, all of the licenses we have terminated havebeen for unrestricted release, and this is the samecriteria that the Zion plan is applying in their LTP.NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 8So, that means that for unrestricted release, the plantcan be used or the site can be used for any uses in thefuture that the owner deems to use it for. Like I said,we do have restricted release criteria but we've neverhad anybody actually implement those or try toimplement those. Go to the next slide.The reactor decommissioning process hasspecific criteria as noted on the left here for thelicensee. As we'll hear tonight, we're here to talkabout the license termination plan, so we're near theend of the decommissioning process. The NRC hascertain responsibilities in carrying out its safetymission, those are down the middle. And this is oneof the required meetings we have, to hold a publicmeeting to discuss and obtain comments from the publicon the license termination plan.On the right are the interfaces which thepublic can have in the process. And of course at thispoint, we are here to receive comments and there is anopportunity for hearing on the license terminationplan.So, with that, next slide, I'd like tointroduce John Hickman who is the project manager forthe Zion plant. He ' s been the proj ect manager for ZionNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 9for over 10 years now. Thank you.MR. HICKMAN: Good evening. Next slideplease. Just wanted to go through a brief history ofthe Zion facility decommissioning history. Zion wasshut down in 1997, and in February of the next year,the licensee submitted certifications that theshutdown was permanent and that the fuel had beenpermanently removed from the reactor vessel. At thatpoint, the facility was put into a safe store conditionuntil the license was transferred to Energy Solutions.in September of 2010; at that point, activedecommissioning began. Zion Solutions completed thefirst major milestone of decommissioning bytransferring all the spent fuel to an ISFSI in Januaryof this year. Next slide.This is basically the content of thelicense termination plan. I'm not going to go throughall of this because Zion Solutions will do apresentation on the content in a minute. What I wantedto state was the point of the license termination planis that's the last significant licensing action that'sconducted before the end of the license when thelicensee requests termination.The LTP is basically a document thatNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 10develops how the licensee is going to demonstrate tothe NRC that they have cleaned up the site sufficientlyto meet our release criteria. It describes thecharacterization, the radiological characterizationof the site, the work that needs to be done. Itdescribes how they're going to model the measurementsthey are taking to convert that into a dose because ourrelease criteria is based on a dose to someone afterlicense termination. And it describes how they'regoing to survey the site to demonstrate that they havereduced the residual radioactivity to a sufficientlevel. Go to the next slide please.This is just a slide that describes how youcan obtain a copy of the LTP using our online Adamsdocument system. A copy of this slide is in the back,so for anybody who wants to access the document lateron, they can pick up a copy and this will explain toyou how you can go into our online system and find acopy of the document for yourself. Next slide please.Our review of the license termination planis a multi-step process. Initially, we do anacceptance review, that has already been completed.The licensee will be receiving a letter shortly statingthat our acceptance review is done. The acceptanceNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 11review is just looking to see if they provided adequatecontent for a detailed technical review. It doesn'tindicate the plan is acceptable yet, it just says thatthe licensee provided enough for our technical review.The technical review is now underway.Most likely we will have some questions, find someadditional information we need, and we'll then submitthe licensee questions to fill that need.We're required to have a public meeting onthe LTP, and that's what we're doing today. And thepublic has an opportunity to provide comments on theLTP which would be considered in our review. Assumingthe LTP is found to be acceptable, it would be approvedby a license amendment.Throughout the process, the NRC performsinspections to confirm that the licensee is conductingthe decommissioning satisfactorily. And Mr.Orlikowski of Region III will address that in a fewmoments. Next slide.Assuming the LTP has been foundsatisfactory and approved, the licensee will completethe decommissioning of the facility. At the end of theprocess, or during the course of that process they'llbe submitting radiological final status survey reportsNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 12of various areas of the site to demonstrate that it'sbeen cleaned satisfactorily. We would review andapprove those final status survey reports. We willalso conduct confirmatory surveys. We'll have ourindependent contractor at Oak Ridge come out, reviewthe same areas the licensee surveyed, and make sure thattheir surveys were conducted adequately. If thesurveys have been conducted adequately and all of thesite has been cleaned up to meet our release criteria,we would then terminate the license. Next slide.And now, Mr. Orlikowski will discuss theinspection program.MR. ORLIKOWSKI: Thanks, John. My nameis Bob Orlikowski. I'm a Branch Chief in our RegionIII office. We are located in Lisle, Illinois. I'mthe Branch Chief for Materials Control ISFSI andDecommissioning, and that ISFSI stands for IndependentSpent Fuel Storage Installation. So, I've gotinspectors that we do inspections for decommissioningreactor sites, also decommissioning material sites, aswell as we have inspectors that go out and doinspections of spent fuel storage. Next slide please.So, our inspectors were really the bootson the ground. Our primary mission and focus is safetyNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 13and security. So, our inspections are geared towardslooking at mostly radiological safety at sites and alsothe security at sites. For Zion, our primary focus arethose two items. Next slide please.So, our inspection program fordecommissioning is outlined in Inspection ManualChapter 2561. This document is available onlinepublicly, so if you're interested, you can go online,you can download the document. This inspectionprogram begins when a reactor shuts down and removesall the fuel from the reactor. At that point, theysubmit a letter to the NRC, they are no longer allowedto operate that reactor and our inspection programbegins.Our inspection program remains in placeuntil the license is terminated. Our inspections thatwe conduct, they are available, we document all of ourinspection results and inspection reports. Those arealso available publicly online. Next slide please.So, as I mentioned earlier, we'reprimarily focused on safety, specifically security andradiological safety. The inspection program is madeup of core and discretionary inspections. The coreinspections are essentially the minimum amount ofNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 14inspections that are required to be performed at a site,and they're outlined in the manual chapter. We alsohave an option to perform what are called discretionaryinspections. So, if there is a particular issue at asite, or if there is an activity that's going on thatwe would like to inspect, we can, we have the right togo and inspect that activity under a discretionaryinspection. Next slide please.In addition to decommissioninginspections, we also perform spent fuel inspections.Now at Zion, in January, they completed removing allthe fuel out of the spent fuel pool and then sent todry storage. So, my inspectors were involved withobserving those activities. The spent fuel has its owninspection program and that's outlined in ManualChapter 2690. This inspection program is in place aslongas the fuel is on site. So, even though the fuelis in dry cask storage right now, we still haveinspectors that go out and look at making sure the fuelis stored safely. And then we also have inspectorsthat go out and look at security for that spent fuelsfacility. Next slide please.Here is our primary contact information.Our public website is listed there. That's got aNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 15wealth of information as I mentioned earlier. A lotof our documentation is available online publicly, ourprocedures, inspection procedures, our manualchapters, our inspection reports. Next slide please.So with that, actually before we get to thecomment and question section, I'm going to turn thingsover, and Zion Solutions is actually going to do apresentation on the license termination plan.MR. YETTER: My name is Bob Yetter. I amthe site characterization and license terminationmanager at Zion.Before I get started, I just wanted to showyou, this is the hard copy of our LTP. And a lot ofhard work and sweat went into this and I think it's,I know it is one of the best LTPs ever, right? I'vebeen decommissioning since 1990, 25 years. My fellowrad workers have, they've got at least that much, sowe've got hundreds of years of experience that went intothis. It was an exhausting effort but I think it wasworth it, right?So, before I get started with mypresentation, I'm going to play a little movie aboutwhat we've been doing here lately on site. Thankgoodness there's no sound.NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 16(Video presentation.)MR. YETTER: I'd like to thank John Saugerand his drone for that. It's actually really a coolvideo and it gives you a good bird's eye view, right,of the site layout. Okay. Next slide.So, the license termination plan is madeup of eight chapters, and that's the list of the eightchapters right there. Next slide.The objective of the decommissioning is toreduce the level of residual radioactivity to levelsthat permit the release of the site for unrestricteduse and allow for the termination of 10 CFR Part 50license with the exception of the ISFSI hearing.Chapter 1, well, the LTP was written inaccordance with Reg Guide 1.179 and NUREG 1700.Chapter 1 primarily covers the site location, adescription of the site, some of the background,operations and licensing activities, and it providesa summary of each chapter. It also discusses anyrevisions to the LTP, they would be done per federalregulations.But we're also proposing a licenseamendment that allows us, or that establishes when wehave to get Nuclear Regulatory Commission buy-in andNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 17approval before making some changes, basicallydecreasing survey units from a Class 1 to a 2, or aClass 2 to a 3. You may not know about what a Class,a Class 1 survey unit would require a lot more surveyfrequency than a Class 3. So if we wanted to do lesswork on a survey unit to show it was acceptable, we wouldhave to go to the NRC. Next slide.Oh, it gets reviewed every two years. Sothe purpose of the site characterization, it wasperformed over a two-year period. The primary was toverify the initial classification that was performedduring the historical site assessment. So, at thispoint, we know where and what levels of radioactivitywe have on the site. The characterization provided anextensive characterization of soil surface andsubsurface soil.We literally took, literally overthousands of samples. We performed open landmeasurements, either using an ISOCS unit, In SituObject Counting System, or technicians actuallyperforming gamma scans. We took numerous core samplesin structure basements. And we've been doingquarterly groundwater monitoring.The results of all that show very limitedNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 18residual radioactivity in surface soil, and all theresults were below our release criteria. We found nocontamination in any subsurface soil samples and wefound no contamination in any groundwater samples. Ican honestly say it's the cleanest nuclear plant I'vebeen to.Chapter 3 basically identifies all theremaining dismantlement activities. I don't want togo into the detail of, it breaks it down by buildingsand how we're exactly going to tear them down, remediatethem, what we're going to do with them. But this isjust a summary of major activities, and then you cansee it all culminates to probably submitting a finalreport at the end of 2018.You can see quarter three of this year,we're going to be doing the crib house, the final statussurvey of the crib house. So that' s the next one comingup. You can see the big goal was to get the LTPsubmitted. We did that on December 20th, and a bigmilestone was completing the transfer of the spent fuelto the ISFSI. That was completed on January 10. Nextslide.This is an artist rendering of what thesite will look like at the completion ofNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 19decommissioning. There won't be much to see. Thesite is going to be zoned for heavy industrial use. Allabove-grade buildings will be demolished and removedto a minimum of three feet below grade. Thesebasements that we' ll be leaving will be backfilled withclean material, and the land will be returned to thenatural contours.Roadways and rail lines are going toremain. The intake and discharge piping from and intoLake Michigan will remain. There will be some buriedpiping that will remain. And per Exelon's request,there will be some facilities and structures stillstanding like the switch yard, the ISFSI complex, theassociated warehouse, there's a microwave tower to thesouth of the site, and there is a sewage lift station.Chapter 4 describes the remediation plan.It just goes through the various methods that we mayutilize in remediating contaminated systems,components and structures. The plan remediation meetsNRC as-low-as-reasonably-achievable criterion.Basically, that's a formula found in a regulatorydocument, and it's kind of like dollars versus dose,and we ran it through the formula. Next slide.Chapter 5 is the final radiation surveyNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 20plan. It discusses the comprehensive sampling andmeasurements that were going to be performed todemonstrate that the site meets our unrestrictedrelease criteria. And our surveys are performed onNUREG 1575 MARSSIM, or Multi-Agency Radiation SurveySite Investigation Manual.MARSSIM describes a statistical approachto designing, implementing, and assessing radiologicalsurveys. It discusses turnover and control measures.It dictates how many samples we' re required to take andwhere. It talks about data quality objectives and dataquality assessment. It also discusses how we have toreport results. And once we give that report to theNRC, they will most likely contract somebody like ORISEto come out and do a confirmatory survey.I would go more into MARSSIM but typicallyit's a week or two intense training, that's if you havea radiological background. Read Chapter 5, it's allin there. Basically, for soil areas, we'll be doingscanning, gamma scans and static measurements, and alsosampling for volumetric soil sampling. And we'll bedoing that for the surface and subsurface.For concrete, basically the basements,we're going to be utilizing_the ISOCS, or we possiblyNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 21will be utilizing Coburn. We're also going to besurveying buried pipe, embedded pipe and penetrations.You can see the picture down here in the middle, on thebottom, that's one of our pipe crawlers we would use.The picture on the left is an ISOCS unit suspended froman articulated boom lift. And we would basicallyoffset it a certain distance to get a certain field ofview.The picture on the right shows a typicaltechnician standing with a 2 x 2 sodium iodide detector.And those are Scottish teams out there taking soilsamples. I would not allow people in the US to wearthose hard hats.We also have QA measures where we ensurethat we're using the proper instrumentation, it'sproperly calibrated. We ensure our technicians areproperly trained. And we also have like QA surveysbuilt into our survey design, like typically fivepercent repeats of surveys or data analysis.So, Chapter 6 discusses how we are goingto comply with the radiological criterion. So, thedose criterion here at the site is above naturalbackground to a member of the critical group does notexceed 25 millirem ayear. -Whatis 2.5millirem a-year?NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 2344433 22The average dose in the US is 310 millirem a year fromnatural background radiation. If you live in Denver,at 55 millirem a year just because you're closer to thesun. A mammogram, 30 millirem. Just to give you anidea of what 25 millirem is. We also have to meet theALARA criterion which again is the dose versus cost.So, next page.So, well, to determine the compliance withthe 25 millirem, we have conservatively assumed aresident farmer is going to be a member of the criticalgroup. And that is somebody is going to build a farmon this site, they're going to sink a well into one ofthese basements that we leave behind. The basementsare going to fill up with groundwater, rainwater. Yougot three feet of clean fill on top. We're basicallygoing to suck the water through a well and we're goingto water our cornfields, our gardens, we're going tofeed our cattle the water, we're going to drink thewater.You know, all that takes in account to comeup with what we can leave behind. We use different dosemodeling programs. We look at the external exposure,the inhalation of dust, and soil ingestion. And thoseare minimized because of the three foot clean soil.NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 23So, basically, the pathway is consumption of the beefand milk, consumption of the vegetables and fruit, andconsumption of the well water.Chapter 7 provides an update for the sitespecific decommissioning costs. It provides anestimate of the remaining decommissioning costs at thetime of the LTP submittal and it compares the estimatedcosts with the present funds that have been set aside.The decommissioning cost estimate includes anevaluation of the following: cost assumptionsincluding contingency, major decommissioningactivities and tests; unit cost factors; cost ofdecontamination; removal of equipment and structures;final radiation survey costs; and estimated totalcosts.And if you look at Chapter 7, it's just abig spreadsheet. So, all of that is summarized witha statement that the current cost fund providessufficient funding and financial assurance forcompletion of the Zion restoration project.And the last chapter is eight, which is asupplement to the environmental report. It describesthe site environmental description of the site. Itdescribes any new information or significantNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 24environmental change associated with site specificdecommissioning and site closure activities. Thisincludes looking at possible radiological effects fromdecommissioning or non-rad effects of decommissioning.And the conclusion in Chapter 8 is thatpotential environmental impacts associated withdecommissioning will be bounded by the previouslyissued environmental impact statements, and there areno new or significant environmental changes associatedwith decommissioning. End of the presentation.MR. WATSON: Thank you for thepresentation. At this time, I'd like to have the NRCstaff who are here introduce themselves so you know who,what level of people are involved in this review of thisLTP. Did you want to start with the Region III peoplefirst?MR. ORLIKOWSKI: Yes, let's start with theRegion III individuals.MR. LIN: Bill Lin, I am for Region III.I'm one of the inspectors that's involved in the Ziondecommissioning project.MR. Strohneyer: Daniel Strohmeyer I'mthe Inspector for the decommissioning project.MR. EDWARDS: My name is Rex Edwards. I'mNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 25the dry cask storage decommissioning inspector.MR. SLAWINSKI: Wayne Slawinski, I'm thelead NRC inspector at the Zion site.MR. ORLIKOWSKI: And that's it for us.MR. WATSON: Harral?MR. LOGARAS: I'm Harral Logaras. I'mthe Government Liaison working in the NRC's Region IIIoffice. My principal duties are to interface withgovernment counterparts in state, local and federalmunicipalities --MR. WATSON: Okay.MS. MITLYNG: I'm Viktoria Mitlyng. I'ma senior public affairs officer at Region III so I'mhere if you have general inquiries, ask myself and mycolleague here.MS. CHANDRATHIL: Hi there. I'm PremaChandrathil and I'm also a public affairs officer fromthe regional office out in Lisle.MR. WATSON: Okay. Let's go to the NRCheadquarters people.MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: Michael Dusaniwskyj.The focus of my responsibility is decommissioningfunding assurance.MS. VAALER: Marlayna Vaaler, I'm aNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 26project manager for the decommissioning branch at ourheadquarters office.PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: We couldn't hearthat.MS. VAALER: Sorry. I'm a projectmanager, yes, at the headquarters office.MR. CLEMENTS: My name is John Clements,I am a health physicist at the reactor decommissioningbranch at NRC headquarters.MR. WATSON: Karen?MS. NIXON: I'm Karen Pinkston, I amreviewing the assessment for the LTPMS. YILMA: Hi, I'm Haimanot Yilma.MS. JAMISON: Kellee Jamerson, projectmanager for the environmental review branch, NRCheadquarters.MR. BJORNSEN: Allen Bjornsen,environmental review branch, headquarters, NRC.MR. WATSON: And that's it. As a coupleof reminders, we are having this meeting transcribed,and so we have a court reporter here. The transcriptwill be available on the NRC website once we get it alltogether again.For the record, if you make a comment, we'dNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 27like you to please give us your name. Please make abrief statement or question. We would like you to usethis mic over here. If you're uncomfortable with themic, coming up and standing, let us know, we'll bringthe mic to you. But we ask that you are brief. We'dlike to have everybody have the opportunity to make acomment that wants to make a comment tonight.So, we will be reviewing the comments forany safety or environmental issues. And we will bepublishing a meeting summary which will be on ourwebsite soon after this meeting. So, yes?MR. KRAFT: Just a quick question. Youintroduced the NRC staff and the Zion Solutions. I waswondering if anyone is here from Exelon Corporation.MR. WATSON: Is there anybody that is hererepresenting Exelon?(No response.)MR. KRAFT: Thank you.MR. WATSON: Okay. With that, we invitecomments. We will do our best to listen to yourcomment. We will also do our best if we can answer aquestion, to the best of the staff's ability we willtry and answer it. If not, we will write it down andget back to you. Thank you.NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 28MR. McDOWELL: Great, thanks. My name isMike McDowell and I'm Commissioner-Elect for the cityof Zion.(Problems with the microphone.)MR. WATSON: We thought it was on. Sorry,Mike.MR. McDOWELL: Okay, is that better?MR. WATSON: Yes.MR. McDOWELL: All right. Mike McDowell,Commissioner-Elect for the city of Zion. I'm also thecurrent President of Design Park District. And Iappreciate the presentation tonight. I actually havea whole list of questions but most of them were answeredin your presentation, so thank you very much for that.There are a few questions that I have remaining.The first one is who actually owns thespent fuel that ' s being stored here in the city of Zion?MR. HICKMAN: I can answer that one.MR. WATSON: Yes.MR. HICKMAN: Exelon still actually ownsthe fuel. Currently, Zion Solutions has the licensefor possession of it, but Exelon still owns it.MR. McDOWELL: All right. Is there apoint when this fuel becomes the property of the federalNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 29government?MR. HICKMAN: When the Department ofEnergy is able to license a repository, it becomes theproperty of the federal government.MR. McDOWELL: Okay. So, right now we'rethe licensed repository?MR. WATSON: Yes, storage.MR. McDOWELL: Yes, okay. I noticed, Idon't know if it was in the LTP or if it was an additionaldocument, but Zion Solutions has asked for the abilityto make changes to the LTP without the oversight orapproval of the NRC. There are some stipulationslisted there.MR. WATSON: Right. I can answer that.MR. McDOWELL: But what kind of changescould you make without the oversight of the NRC?MR. WATSON: The licensee can make somechanges to the license termination plan. We spell outspecific criteria where they'd have to come to us forapproval, and part of that would be anything that wouldreflect a reduction in the possible safety consequencesof that change. So, they can make some minor changes.They will follow what we would call a 50.59 safetyreview process. The regional inspectors willNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 30continuously look at their changes that they do make.And they are required, just like they would now, to sendin any changes to their safety analysis report everytwo years to us.So, we would do a formal review of that fromthe licensing perspective, but the inspectors would beinspecting those changes to make sure they remainwithin those criteria that the NRC would allow.MR. McDOWELL: Okay, thanks. So, Iunderstood from your presentation that upon ZionSolutions' return of the property to Exelon, theproperty could be used for any purpose?MR. WATSON: You know, we don't, the NRCdoes not own the property.MR. McDOWELL: Right.MR. WATSON: So, Exelon Company owns theproperty, so whatever they decide to do with theirproperty is their business once we terminate thelicense.MR. McDOWELL: So, I mean a building, astructure could be built?MR. WATSON: Yes, they could, I can onlyspeak to what the other utilities have done.MR. McDOWELL: Okay.NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 31MR. WATSON: Some have turned them intoparks. Some have built additional generating stationson them, about a third of them do that. It's reallyup to the owner what they choose to do with the property.Obviously, if they want to build a new nuclear powerplant, they'll have to come to us and have us licenseit.MR. McDOWELL: Yes.MR. WATSON: But it's their choice whatthey can do with the property.MR. McDOWELL: All right. My lastquestion just has to do with what will happen to thisproperty when it is turned over to Exelon, and it hasto do with the LTP. Can the city of Zion have any inputinto the LTP and the outcome of the use of this property?Is that an appropriate request from the city of Zionto have input into this LTP?MR. WATSON: No, the actual LTP deals withradiological decommissioning on the site. Anythingbeyond that is outside our jurisdiction to do anythingwith. So, any state laws or city zoning or whateverelse that may be in effect would happen without ourpermission or need to be involved once we terminate thelicense.NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 32MR. McDOWELL: So, the Zion Solutionscould actually include input from the city of Zion inthe LTP or that's not appropriate?MR. WATSON: Well, like I said, the LTP isprincipally a licensing document on how they're goingto terminate the license. And so, it is mainly atechnical document, it's principally talking about howthey're going to meet the criteria for the radiologicalrelease. Anything beyond that, once we terminate thelicense, is really between, I'll say Exelon and theirstakeholders here in the state.MR. McDOWELL: Okay.MR. WATSON: Okay?MR. McDOWELL: Thank you very much.MR. WATSON: Any other questions,comments? Would you like to come up? Okay.MS. OWEN: Good evening. My name isVerena Owen. I am a former resident of Zion. I nowlive three miles north of Winthrop Harbor. I have twoquestions. One to the NRC, I am curious how your publicoutreach was for this meeting tonight. This is not abad turnout, but frankly I expected several hundredpeople.MR. WATSON: You can handle this.NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 33MR. HICKMAN: Well, the meeting was in thelocal paper, both last Thursday's publication and theprevious week.MS. OWEN: Was that, which paper?MR. HICKMAN: The Zion Benton Harbor News.MS. OWEN: I don't really consider that apaper of general circulation because that's a weekly.I don't get it, I get the Lake County News Sun. Didyou advertise in that?MR. HICKMAN: No, I'm afraid I wasn't, Isimply found out what was the local paper and that wasthe one I was informed was the --MS. OWEN: Interesting. I have beenattending off and on the decommissioning meetings withthe Zion Commission and was actually, I heard only verylast minute about this hearing, this meeting. And Iwas expecting it because it was mentioned before. So,you might want to tweak your public outreach a littlebit, if you have to tune in just to get in the publiccomment.MR. HICKMAN: Well, we did also publish inthe Federal Register. It's been noticed on ourwebsite, I understand, it's been noticed on our websitefor quite sometime.NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 34MS. OWEN: I'm afraid I don't read theFederal Register.MR. HICKMAN: And a press release wasissued on it.MS. OWEN: Okay. Thank you. As theCommissioner-Elect, I actually have a question aboutyour comment that this site would be an unrestricteduse, and then your comment that it's only for heavyindustrial. Could you explain the discrepancy alittle bit and what would it take to have the site beused for a residential or recreational and not heavyindustrial use?MR. WATSON: Well, let me answer one partof it.MS. OWEN: Sure.MR. WATSON: The site, as planned in thelicense termination plan, will meet the radiologicalrelease criteria for unrestricted use, meaning theowner can use it for any purpose they want includingturning it into a farm, building houses or whatever.MS. OWEN: I like the farm thing but --MR. WATSON: Okay. But I'm just saying,that's the criteria we're using. So, as far as the useof the property, I think, I guess the Exelon CompanyNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 35would have to answer that.MS. OWEN: Well, he mentioned it wouldonly be usable for heavy industrial, so maybe he couldanswer it.MR. YETTER: It's how it's currentlyzoned.MS. OWEN: Zoned? It is already zoned?MR. YETTER: Yes.MS. OWEN: It could be rezoned foranything else to your knowledge?MR. WATSON: That would be up to the city.MS. OWEN: That would be up to the. city,thank you. Thank you very much.MS. LEWISON: Hello. I'm Linda Lewison,I'm with the Nuclear Energy Information Service. It'sa 35-year watchdog on the nuclear industry in Illinois,and I also am with the Sierra Club Nuclear Free Campaignnationally.I have some questions. One is to Rex who,we talked before the meeting. Where is Rex?MR. EDWARDS: I'm right here.MS. LEWISON: Hi. So, but I want it, asI said, for public record. Could you talk about themonitoring of the dry casks and what that's all aboutNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 36and the ways that we discussed before the meeting? Ifirst started out, as I said, just knowing that it'sgoing to be inspected once every two weeks visually,but as you described to me there 's a lot more to it thanthat. So, could you elaborate on that?MR. EDWARDS: Certainly. And foreveryone, again my name is Rex Edwards. I'm a dry caskstorage inspector. And your questions pertained towhat are the monitoring requirements for the casks thatare out there on the ISFSI pad. There are severalaspects in the monitoring. There is the performancemonitoring that has to occur to ensure that it'sperforming its function of heat removal. There'smonitoring functions for dose. There's monitoringfunctions for security, dose, I'm sorry, radiologicaldose.MS. LEWISON: So, heat, I mean there'sthermal and there's radioactive heat. Which are you,is the dose the radioactive and the heat with thethermal? I mean could you distinguish?MR. EDWARDS: Certainly. It's all ofthose. The cask has several functions it has toperform. We'll just take each of them. It has toprovide a heat removal function, so there's monitoringNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 37criteria for that. It has to perform a radiologicalfunction of shielding the fuel and preventingradiological dose to the public. So, there'smonitoring that occurs from that. And then it also hasto perform a security function to keep the contents ofthat fuel safe. And there are security monitoringrequirements for that as well. And there's monitoringhappening 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> a day, seven days a week on thosecasks.MS. LEWISON: When you say monitoring, youmean there are electronic nodes attached to each caskthat you pick up on a screen and, well, I mean how doesit work?MR. EDWARDS: There's both electronic andvisual means. Both can be acceptable, so there areoptions. Right now, there are electronic means ofmonitoring at the Zion Station.MS. LEWISON: And that's measuring theheat and what else is the electronic part measuring asopposed to the visual?MR. EDWARDS: The thermal performance,the heat performance is monitored electronically. Thesecurity requirements are monitored electronically.MS. LEWISON: And the dose?NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 38MR. EDWARDS: The dose is not inputteddirectly into, say a computer type program, but thereare instruments where an operator can walk around andvisually see what the dose rates, the radiologicaldosage on those. There are also environmentalmonitoring that occurs required per our regulations,that they monitor for those.MS. LEWISON: Is that also visual versuselectronic? Or are there other ways to monitor?MR. EDWARDS: Those are radiationmonitoring devices.MS. LEWISON: So, are they sitting thereor are they on the casks, are they around the property?I mean how?MR. EDWARDS: They are physically aroundthe fence line I believe at the Zion Station, aroundthe fence line of the casks.MS. LEWISON: Around, but they are not onthe casks?MR. EDWARDS: They are not on the casks,no. Now, the operator could go out there, as we do withour inspections, we will take a survey meter and putit on the cask and verify what the dose rates are comingoff the cask.NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 39MS. LEWISON: And what is the part that'severy two weeks and what is the part that's every 24hours as you had described to me?MR. EDWARDS: I'm not sure. The questionis what's every two weeks and what's every 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br />?I'm not sure what you're referring to for every twoweeks.MS. LEWISON: But you said something, thatpeople walked around?MR. EDWARDS: I believe that was somethingthat you had brought to the discussion.MS. LEWISON: I see.MR. EDWARDS: I'm not sure what thatrefers to. There are requirements for the license,that they do certain monitoring activities. And I'lljust use the thermal performance, for example, it hasto be monitored every 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br />. And then the otherfrequencies are specified in the license requirementsas well as in the documentation that supports thatlicense. The licensee then, or Zion Solutions in thiscase, will have other programs for monitoring thingssuch as the structural performance of the actual padthat the cask sits on, the overpacks that they're storedin, and numerous other programs.NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 40MS. LEWISON: So, is it my understanding,am I correct that when you put the fuel assembliestogether to be transferred to the dry casks, that thatwork all had to be done under water because if it camein contact with oxygen it would combust?MR. EDWARDS: The statement that it wouldcombust is not correct, but it does have to be done underwater for radiological concerns. That's the primaryway to do it, it's not the only way to do it.MS. LEWISON: But that's the way, so myconcern is if there is a problem with any of these drycasks with the material in them, that the work thatneeds to be done to repair it in some way, whether theproblem is, for any reason, doesn't have to be aterrorist attack, it could be some internal breakdown,must be done under water, that there is no technologydeveloped for how to repair this. So, my concern isthat these fuel pools are all we have right now to getit back under water to do the repairs. And so, I'm veryconcerned that they stay up and not be destroyed.MR. EDWARDS: I understand your concernand certainly can appreciate that. But it does notnecessarily have to be done under water. That is onemethod that it can be done. Our regulatoryNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 41requirements is that the fuel has to be retrievable.Now, that means a couple of different things. Butbefore they get a license by us to put it in thecanister, it has to be retrievable.MR. WATSON: Well, thank you for yourquestion on the spent fuel storage. The NRC hasinspection procedures. The program is being increasedfor surveillance and for some longer term testing ofthe current systems. There are systems available fortransferring the fuel without being under water. Someof the vendors have developed those, they're beingevaluated.And lastly, I'd like to say thank you foryour comments on that but we are here to discuss thelicense termination plan for the Zion Plant. And whilethe fuel may be a related issue, we really are lookingfor comments on the LTP. Okay?MS. LEWISON: Okay. Thank you for sayingthat. So, one last question then on the licensetermination plan, and that is could you talk a bit aboutthe finances? Or. is the finance person here? What'sgoing to happen in terms of what the estimate is forthe final cost of the decommissioning? And will therebe anything left over? Will it be rebated to theNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 42public? How will that work? Could you discuss that?MR. WATSON: I'll have Mike Dusaniwskyjanswer that.MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: These are the kinds ofquestions that I'm sent here to answer. The first andforemost thing that always has to be told is that theNuclear Regulatory Commission does not regulatecommerce, it regulates safety. And it recognizes thatin order to do anything safely, it takes money.The decommissioning funds have been usedproperly to decommission this plant. The actual totalcost is currently at my office because we have to dothis for all of the plants that are permitting online,and for the costs of the licensees that are currentlyin decommissioning. Zion is not the only plant thatis currently in decommissioning.From the NRC's perspective, if there is anymoney left over, that is under the jurisdiction of theState Public Utility Commission. The NRC has nojurisdiction over those funds if such funds should bein existence when the license is terminated. So, Ihave no comment and there is nothing more that I cantell you except that it's under the jurisdiction of theState Public Utility Commission.NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433* o 43MS. LEWISON: Thank you. And last but notleast, could you, I don't know which person, commenton the disposal or what's going to happen to the pipein the lake? I know you referred to it a bit but I thinkwe'd like to hear a bit more about it. Thank you.MR. WATSON: Yes. As far as I know, thepipe in the lake is going to stay. I believe the ArmyCorps of Engineers agrees that the pipes should stay.I know that from the previous decommissioning sites,piping that goes out into the cooling water whether it ' sthe ocean or the local river or lake generally does staymainly because to remove it causes more environmentalinsult than leaving it in place. And so, even at theSan Onofre Unit 1, the discharge and intake conduitsare still going out into the ocean and it's like thatwith a number of different sites.So, at this point, I believe it's going tobe staying. It's probably the, I'd say ourenvironmental reviewers have looked at it andreceivedcomments from the Army Corps of Engineers that it wouldstay. Okay?MS. LEWISON: Thank you.MR. ORE: Hi, my name is Doug Ore. I'm alifelong Zion resident. I'm also a member of the ZCARNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 44panel for the decommissioning. One question I had, asa Zion resident, if there is no permanent repositoryfor the spent fuel, if a site was selected today, howlong would it take to move this fuel out of Zion?MR. WATSON: Well, I have no answer forthat. I can't guess. It's really up to our nationalpolicymakers in Washington to draw the conclusion onwhat's going to happen. I think over $15 to $20 billionhave already been spent on the repository that was goingto be built in Nevada. The NRC was in the process oflicensing that before the funding was all withdrawn.So, you know, for me to say when it's going to be isa speculation.The only thing I can tell you though is theNRC's charge is to make sure that the fuel remains safeand is safely stored for whatever duration that the fuelwill be there.MR. ORE: Well, the baseline would be oncethe site is selected, how long would it take? Is itdecades?MR. WATSON: We're not the Department ofEnergy. We're not in charge of that part of theprocess.MR. ORE: Okay. And then how often doesNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 45the NRC have to inspect that spent fuel?MR. WATSON: I think it's, what, annually?MR. ORLIKOWSKI: Well, typically, the waythat our inspections are set up, we aim to send aninspector out to the site annually. So, we'll have aninspector go out and look at the radiological aspectsone year. And then the next year we'll have anotherperson go out, and their primary focus is typicallysecurity. But our security inspector right now, he'salso a health physicist, so he can also look at theradiological aspects.MR. ORE: And then those casks have to bere-licensed after 20 years, is that correct?MR. WATSON: Yes.MR. ORLIKOWSKI: Yes. Yes, we issue a20-year license, and then prior to that they would haveto request a license renewal from the NRC.MR. ORE: Thank you.MR. KRAFT: Hello. Dave Kraft, NuclearEnergy Information Service in Chicago. I want aclarification here. I know that tonight's proceedingis about the license transfer of the decommissioningsite. But the ISFSI, is that a separate license at thispoint? And who owns that license?NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 46MR. WATSON: Yes, it's a license underPart 50, it's a general license for the ISFSI.MR. KRAFT: Okay, that last part?General license?MR. WATSON: It's a general license. AndZion Solutions currently is the license holder, and ofcourse that will be transferred back to the ExelonCompany when they transfer the, complete thedecommissioning.MR. KRAFT: So, up until that time, is thepad considered part of the decommissioning process?Or is it separate?MR. WATSON: No, it's a separate entity.MR. KRAFT: Okay, that's theclarification I needed. And of course it will be,afterwards it will be transferred to Exelon, is thatright?MR. WATSON: Right.MR. KRAFT: All right. So, we might needRex up here one more time. I think you mentionedearlier though, systems which don't require water forthe transfer of fuel in the case of either an emergencyor the case that, I believe because of the wasteconfidence rule, some of the estimates were that casksNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 47will last anywhere from 30 to 100 years. And if wedon't have a federal repository, you might have to goon a perpetual change-out of casks.MR. WATSON: Right.MR. KRAFT: So, the question I have is howmany of these non-water related systems for fueltransfer are in existence today?MR. WATSON: I really can't speak to that,it's not my expertise.MR. KRAFT: Rex, do you have an answer forthat?MR. WATSON: Well, I know that a number ofthe cask manufacturers have come up with transferringsystems so that the fuel can be transferred and actualmaintenance be done on the dry storage containers. Idon't know the exact status of that. That's with ourSpent Fuel Transportation Division. But we dore-license the, excuse me, one of the plants was justre-licensed for a 20-year renewal and they volunteeredto do a lot of testing and surveillances on thecanisters in order to have that license approved.NRC is working on a significant long-termsurveillance program for doing a lot of testing on thedry cask storage systems because of the length of timeNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 48it has taken thus far not to have a national repository.MR. KRAFT: The question was not so muchon the surveillance. The question I asked was whatequipment exists today that could conduct a drytransfer of fuel without needing the spent fuel pool?And how many of them are there and where are they?MR. EDWARDS: Mr. Kraft, I don't have anumber for you per se.MR. KRAFT: Okay, but they do exist?MR. EDWARDS: Well, again I'll go back tothe regulatory requirements. The casks are requiredto be able to be unloaded. So, they're all designedso that you can take the canister that contains the fueland put it back into the transfer cask and then movethat transfer cask and fix whatever component it mightbe. In this case, the long-term degradation is likelyto be on the concrete overpack. If that's thecomponent that needs replacement, then you would justput the transfer cask and align it to a new overpackand put the canister back in that overpack.There is no credible event right now thatwould cause the canisters to fail. They are licensedto a limited amount of time and we're continuinginspecting that to ensure they continue to performNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 49their designed function.MR. KRAFT: I appreciate you coming fromthe standpoint of what the regulations say. I was justcurious what exists in real life to be able to do that.I guess I would take some issue about credible failuresbecause this is the overflight half of outbound flightsto Europe from O'Hare field. So, that's always beena concern of ours for the last 30 or 40 years.MR. WATSON: Okay. Thank you for yourcomments. Do we have some more comments or questionson the Zion LTP? Please.MR. REILLY: Can I have a microphone?MR. WATSON: Can you get him themicrophone?MR. REILLY: Hi, I'm Tom Reilly. I'm anexecutive principal of VISTA360. We are a publicinterest leadership group. We've been following theZion decommissioning for sometime. And my firstquestion will be addressed to you, I'm sorry, I didn'tcatch your name.MR. WATSON: My name is Bruce Watson.MR. REILLY: Thank-you. Bruce, you'rewith the NRC, correct?MR. WATSON: Correct.NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 50MR. REILLY: Okay. You had mentionedjust a little bit about the NRC would be acceptingcomments on safety matters and security matters. AndI guess it begs the question, on the LTP, we have asupplement that forecasts costs moving forward. Andit's a supplemental issue that Mr. Dusaniwskyj heresays, well, we're not going to comment on that. Whywould it be?MR. WATSON: I don't understand thequestion.MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: I don't understand thequestion either.MR. REILLY: Okay. There is a supplementfrom the licensee regarding finances that were put inon February 26, I think. It seems to be part of theLTP, is that correct or not?MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: Yes.MR. YETTER: Chapter 7.MR. WATSON: Yes.MR. REILLY: It is.MR. WATSON: Yes.MR. REILLY: Okay. So, what I'mwondering about is why wouldn't the NRC in futuredeliberations consider the financial dimensions ofNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 51this decommissioning? What would be the reason? It, spart of the LTP.MR. WATSON: We are reviewing the LTP forthe financial assurance requirements and to make surethey have adequate funding to complete thedecommissioning. I mean what else is there? I don'tgrasp the question.MR. REILLY: Well, maybe I don'tunderstand. I don't mean to be argumentative but --MR. WATSON: No, I'm trying to understandwhat you're asking.MR. REILLY: Your exact comments were atthis meeting we're considering the LTP and we willconsider only safety and security matters. How couldthat be when part of the LTP is the financial aspect?MR. WATSON: Okay. I think Mikeexplained it that while we are looking at the safetyand environmental issues associated with an LTP, asMike said, safety costs money. So, we look at thefinancial parts of this, of the LTP also. So, it ispart of the review process. That's one of therequirements in the regulations is to provide us astatus on the financial assurances in situations so wecan make a judgment that they have sufficient amountNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 52of money to complete the decommissioning. So, it ispart of the LTP. And like we said, safety costs money,so we do look at the financial aspects.MR. REILLY: The regulations call out forthe licensees to make assertions that there areassurances that the decommissioning proceeds innational decommissioning trust are adequate to beginthe decommissioning, do you affirm that?MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: I'm really quite, I'mnot exactly sure where you're going with this becauseI'm not sure what you're asking.MR. REILLY: I guess I'm asking that itisn't up to the NRC to assure us that there is enoughmoney in decommissioning trust, it's up to the licenseeto assure the NRC that there is enough money.MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: Ah, I believe Iunderstand the question. Yes, your premise is*correct. We have what's known as performance-basedregulations. The regulations put on to the licenseecertain financial requirements that they have tofulfill. And they have to do this with us every year.So, since the license has gone into decommissioning,active decommissioning around 2010 I believe was whenyou started decommissioning activities, every year weNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 53have to review their financial statements as to whatthey believe it's going to cost and what they are goingto have in the way of funds to make sure that these costsare covered as we move forward in time.We take into account not necessarily thenominal dollars that are going to be involved, butrather the purchasing power of those trust funds whichare held in an external trust outside of the controlof the licensee. So, the reasons that we have theregulations is to assure that once when the license wasfirst issued many years ago, every licensee takes onthe responsibility of decommissioning, and that doestake money. During the operating life, those funds areusually collected and it is going to be dedicated tothe decommissioning of any particular facility.There can be exceptions made to this whichas long as they are still able to providedecommissioning funding assurance, and even if theseassurances should turn out to be wrong, in Zion's casethere is still an additional $200 million line ofcredit. And Energy Solutions has just pumped in $25million on top of the funds to assure to the NRC thatthere are in fact adequate funds to clean the site upsafely and to terminate the license.NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 54MR. WATSON: Radiologicaldecommissioning.MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: Radiologicaldecommissioning, that is correct.MR. REILLY: Yes, thank you. I want togive everybody else in the audience an opportunity totake the microphone but I feel that this has to beexpanded based on where we are at this point in time.May I go back and visit a little history here? Thishas to do with the LTP and the certifications made byI think a regulatory officer.In the 2007 era, Exelon Generation cametogether with Energy Solutions and effectively forgedan agreement for a new model of decommission. So, thisdecommissioning is the first and only one like it innuclear history. On top of that, the Zion transactionis the largest in nuclear history. As an unprecedentedmatter, the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission neverapproved the transfer of a license to a non-utility.So, this is the first decommissioning we have with aprivate-public entity if you will that is not aregulated entity.Additionally, it's worthy of comment thatwe heard I think from Mr. Dusaniwskyj _early on alongNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 55with the branch chief of decommissioning that thelicensee, the proposed licensee, Zion Solutions wasadequately financed back in 2008. Representing thepublic, and I'm sure there are some other people herethat can confirm it, in less than 16 months, the generalmanager of Zion Solutions was in front of us and hisname is Patrick Daly and I'm sure there's a record ofthis, he said our biggest issue will be not goingbankrupt in this transaction. Secondly, as aprofessional engineer, and obviously on top of thedecommissioning, he further asserted that it is veryvery difficult to project down the line on a complexproject like this what costs will be and so on and soforth.So, with that in mind, we feel the NRC hasdone an admirable job. Certainly the region staff andthe headquarters staff has done great on safety andsecurity. But in terms of the leadership on finances,there's a lot of questions unanswered when you have notonly one unprecedented transfer of a license but asecond. If Mr. Dusaniwskyj would like to take themicrophone, he can tell us more about how he feels thelicensee has assured us financially and give us, if hewill, a sense of his guarantee that there's plenty ofNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 56money with this $25 million. And it is a letter ofcredit, not a line of credit, according to regulatoryguidelines.MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: Okay. I am aware of thecomments that I think you are referring to and I haveto admit that it caused quite a flurry back at theheadquarters. And we did contact Energy Solutions andZion Solutions for clarification on those comments.Backing up those comments was the fact that we did getreports to show that they do in fact have the properamount of funds available to complete the safedecommissioning to NRC standards of this unit.As far as all the other comments associatedwith what you're describing before, I have no commenton that. One thing that I want to make sure isperfectly clear here, I am not using the word guarantee.You will never find the word guarantee on any of thefinancial subjects that the NRC regulates. You'rejust looking for reasonable assurance. And so far, allof the assurances that the licensee has provided isreasonable and that there are still funds available.We do not dictate simply because the factthat the funds are in the decommissioning trust fundthat this is the exclusive source of all the fundingNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 57for decommissioning. If a licensee chooses to useother funds, we are not going to object. This was thedecision made on their part, it was a business decision,and all of the indications still show that they willhave reasonable assurance to decommission the plantsafely to license termination.MR. REILLY: Well, we thank you for thatcomment. I guess what I would ask, too, is in the LTP,we have a forecast here in month 56 of thedecommissioning that moves forward to the end of 2018and it deals with tens of millions of dollars. I guesswe'd ask what about the money that's already beenexpended? And I guess our main point would be that inour organization, we're representing the public, andmake no mistake about it, the public in this rate payingarea advanced $800 plus million. And as Mr.Dusaniwskyj said, he doesn't regulate commerce, ourstate does. But in this case, our state agreed, quiteappropriately so, that the rate payers would top offthe decommissioning fund.So, where we're very confused as anorganization is how is it we can have the NRC stand infront of us and make nonsensical comments like we'reonly going to consider safety and security. BecauseNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 58you undertook, you hit the tar baby when you approvedthis transaction and there is no moving away from thefinances. So, from the first request, we request thatthe NRC call for a complete accounting and give thepublic a certification that all of those costs, fromFebruary 26th back to 2010, fully comply withdecommissioning criteria. I guess we would ask thequestion also, is the Zion facility amongst the fivereviews that are currently going on at the NRC onquestionable trust fund mechanics?MR. WATSON: The plants that you'retalking about, the five, are the newly shutdown plantswhich are San Onofre, Kewaunee, Crystal River andVermont Yankee. And so, the staff is looking to that,some of the questions we have with the submittal oftheir post-shutdown decommissioning activitiesreports.As far as the actual comment that you madeabout we are concerned about the finances, we areauthorized under the Atomic Energy Act only to look atthe radiological decommissioning. The rest of thedecommissioning, as you stated, is under the purviewof the Public Service Commission, so I would encourageyou to engage them and have them do whatever audits youNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 59think are prudent and ask them to do that.So, can we move on to another person? Wehave people raising their hands behind you..MR. REILLY: Sure. I agree to give up themicrophone. But we're here until 9:00, right?MR. WATSON: Yes.MR. REILLY: Sure, no problem. Thankyou.MR. WATSON: Did you want to come up hereagain?MS. LEWISON: No, I can talk from here,thank you. Just to put Tom's comments in a differentlight, because we remain concerned about, is the quotethat, I'm not getting the quote right now about dosageand finances, whatever it was, that it all costs money,you said that yourself in the beginning. It's myunderstanding that $200 million letter of credit iscosting the public trust funds or the funds that arebeing spent $10 million a year to hold on to that forhowever many years? Is that correct?MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: I'm sorry, I wasn't --MR. WATSON: Can you repeat the question?I was trying to understand it myself.MS. LEWISON: What is the cost of holdingNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 60that $200 million letter of credit?MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: I'm trying to rememberthe bank. I believe it's the Bank of New York, I'm notpositive. It was $70 million over 10 years.MS. LEWISON: So, that, we have paid, wethe public in the form of our public trust fund, we havepaid $70 million of this total of $800 plus million.MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: I understand the natureof your concern. But the truth still remains that theNRC is not going to terminate this license until thisplant is safely decommissioned. All of the questionsthat you are describing are more appropriately handledby the Public Utility Commission of the State ofIllinois. The NRC's concern is that this plant besafely decommissioned and that the funds are adequatelyavailable to complete that activity. I understand allof your concerns, but I must point to the Public UtilityCommission of Illinois for you to really get an answerto the kinds of questions that you're asking.MS. LEWISON: Thank you.MR. WATSON: The gentleman behind you,right next to you, had his hand up, to your left, yourright. Yes, he had his hand up before you.MS. LEWISON: At the ZCAP meeting a fewNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 61years ago, it was reported by the project manager herethat, it was actually the third year of the project,that they needed an audit, they needed a public audit,an auditor. It was a little surprising to us that aproject of this size would just come up with that ideain the third year of their operation. It took themseveral months to find an auditor, and the audit thatthey put out was not easily if at all available to thepublic.The reason I tell that story right now isjust to indicate that we the public here remainconcerned about the operation, if this is how it'shandled, in terms of just that one piece of thefinancing, so I'll just stop there.MR. WATSON: Okay, thank you. Yes, sir?MR. SCHWARTZ: Hi, my name is DavidSchwartz and I'm a retired citizen. I did read Chapter4 of your plan, and this is the financial question, too.And that is, it pertains to Chapter 4, Section 4.4.1.,ALARA and subsequent, it says "ALARA Analysis of SoilRemediation. In order to determine if additionalremedial action is warranted by ALARA analysis, thedesired benefits and the undesirable effects, costsmust be calculated. If the benefits of the remedialNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 62action will be greater than the costs, then the remedialaction is warranted and should be performed. However,if the costs exceed the benefit, then the remedialaction is considered to be not ALARA and should not beperformed."That strikes me, as a retired citizen, asbeing rather crass I must say. First of all, it's asubjective judgment. And I know that there's going tobe lawsuits and whatnot and so forth, but it would benice to get this put together in the right way so thepublic can have some confidence in that. And inaddition to what I just read to you, just further down,a few more paragraphs down, it talks about transportingmaterial from the site out to Utah and somewhere elsein Tennessee or Louisiana or something. There it talksabout costs of fatalities.I mean how do you, and I know there's a big,great big calculus thing here, equation which I didn'tunderstand. But as just a layperson, it's hard for meto understand how you can impute costs and benefits tofatalities. I'm pretty sure there are no benefits tofatalities.MR. WATSON: Well, yes, as part of theenvironmental review process, you look at all theNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 63options. And one of those is the potential for eventsto happen during the processes you pick so you can makea judgment on what you're going to do. So, if it meantsending millions of truckloads of dirt, say to Utah,there would be a certain amount of risk with that. Andthe way they'd look at that is in terms of fatalitiesor traffic accidents. Just like if you and I weredriving back and forth a million times, the probabilityof us having an accident eventually is probably prettygood. But I'm just saying you evaluate each processyou're going to follow, and that's one of the criteriayou look at from a transportation standpoint is a fatalaccident.Unfortunately, that's the way the processis set up. But it's one way you look at the evaluationof what you're going to do. So, I didn't set up theenvironmental reviews but that's one of the things theylook at. Okay? Next? Anybody else have anycomments?MS. LEWISON: Can you tell us what theconcerns are that the NRC, on this Zion project, whatare your concerns?MR. WATSON: First and foremost is safety.We want to make sure that the plant is decommissionedNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 64in a safe fashion, not only to the workers but also tothe public, and making sure there is no additionalinsult to the environment. So, that's our primaryconcern. So, we will look at, continue to inspect theplant throughout the remaining decommissioningactivities to make sure they're done safely. That'sprincipally our role and that's our mission.So, other than that, we will continue toinspect and make sure that things are done properly,safely, and not endangering any of the workers, youknow, the environment or any of the public. That's itin a nutshell. We've already demonstrated in thiscountry that we've decommissioned 10 power plants,seven in most recent years with the plants in NewEngland, and so we know it can be done safely. Weexpect Zion Solutions to do it safely. I think it'stheir expectation they're going to do it safely.And so, we will continue to monitor andinspect and provide oversight of the decommissioningprocess. Any other comments? I think Mr. Reillywould like to have the mic back.MR. REILLY: And likewise I will give themic to anybody who has the urge. Hi, I'm Tom Reilly,executive principal of VISTA360. This is regardingNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 65the LTP. There is a Zion Nuclear Power Station Unit1 and 2 licensee transfer service list that is providedwith the LTP. It seems that the licensee has seven ofthe 11 people that were on line of importance ofreviewing this document. We also see that you've sentit to the IEMA health physicist and the Nuclear FacilityInspection at the Illinois Emergency ManagementAgency. And we also see that you sent it to the LakeCounty Emergency Management Agency, and of course theregion and this was the original drafted for theheadquarters, and the counsel to the company.I guess what we're wondering is why wasn'tthe mayor of Zion given this license to transfer servicelist in the one case, and if Mr. Dusaniwskyj indicatesour state regulates commerce, why was this not givento, for example, our Attorney General, the IllinoisCommerce Commission, or to that extent perhaps somefiscal agency in the state? Humbly speakingourselves, we are on the license transfer service listnow for seven years. So, I guess we would ask, as anorganization that has over 5,000 hours0 days <br />0 hours <br />0 weeks <br />0 months <br /> invested in thedecommissioning, why didn't we get a copy of thesedocuments?MR. HICKMAN: Is this a document theNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 66licensee sent or a document the NRC sent?MR. REILLY: This is a licensee-generateddocument, Zion Nuclear Power Station.MR. HICKMAN: Well, the service listyou're on is an NRC service list, and I put you on itbecause you asked to be on it. It's up to the licenseeto determine who they want to send copies of theirsubmittals to.MR. REILLY: Understood. Is there somereason why they wouldn't want to send it to the statefor commercial issues such as Mr. Dusaniwskyj said?These all go to department people, they all go to otherpeople, when we've got a document right here that'sdealing with financial forecast. That's the wholeissue.MR. WATSON: It's a simple answer. YourAttorney General and the other members of the statehaven't asked to be part of that list.MR. REILLY: I see.MR. WATSON: Okay? I mean we can add themto our service list if they want to be but --MR. REILLY: Totally understood. If ourAttorney General asked for a complete accounting onthis, would that be supplied to us? Would the redactedNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 67documents in the hands of the NRC be able to be conveyedto the Attorney General in Illinois?MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: It would be with thelicensee. They would be contacting the licensee.MR. WATSON: Yes, the licensee has the --MR. REILLY: What if they contact you?MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: They would becontacting the licensee.MR. REILLY: For what reason?MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: If you're asking forinformation that they hold.MR. REILLY: You hold, it's a redactedinformation and I'm saying --MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: No, no. What you'redescribing is completely different from --MR. WATSON: Mike, you might have to --MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: In your hypotheticalscenario, if the Attorney General were to request suchinformation, they would be getting it directly from thelicensee because the nature of your question is not thesame as with the regulations requiring the licensee toprovide to the NRC. Now, I don't want to get into anargument with you but the process would still remainthat if the Attorney General of the State of IllinoisNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 68wishes that information, they would go directly to thelicensee.MR. REILLY: It would seem here in thedocument that the licensee is petitioning you toeffectively give them cover on expenses. There arenumerous expenses in the decommissioning that are notqualified. You know this and we know it.MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: Do you have a list ofthese items?MR. REILLY: Well, I mean fuel management,there was $25 million conveyed to Exelon Corporation.We support Exelon, they're our utility. They keep mylights on. We financed this plant, we don't have anyproblem with that. But the issue is the NRC on its ownconveyed $25 million off the top to Exelon Corporation,and as we would see it, fuel management is not adecommissioning expense by the regulations.MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: Well, first off, you arecorrect, they are not. And the NRC did not just give$25 million for any purpose other than what wasrequested by the licensee. The regulations stipulatethat the primary reason for the money is fordecommissioning. They also had to petition to the NRCto use some of what we would call excess funds for spentNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433* o 69fuel management which we found to be reasonable and wasgranted such an exception.But I don't like the characterization thatjust the NRC on its own decided to do something. AsI remind you, all of our regulations areperformance-based regulations. They are required tofulfill certain obligations by which the manner inwhich they choose, so long as it is reasonable to theNRC, can be granted. Well, not necessarily be grantedin all cases, but in this particular case, theypetitioned, they got it, because the regulationsspecify under 10 CFR 50.54(b) (b), if you wish to lookit up, it says that a licensee for spent fuel managementmust have a financial plan. They submitted such a planwhich is very, very different from 10 CFR 50.75 whichstates that a certain amount of funds must be set asidein an external trust fund dedicated to the purpose ofradiological decontamination.MR. REILLY: Did NRC give them a waiver orno?MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: We gave them anexemption to the regulations, yes.MR. REILLY: Okay. And where is that $25million right now?NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 70MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: It's still in the trustfund. It is extracted as needed for the spent fuelmanagement.MR. REILLY: I see. And why is that notthen in the report from the company when they have theirelective programs quarterly like, I think it was Mr.Ore who was up here, he's a member of that panel, whywas that never disclosed? Is there a reason?MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: I'm not sure who you'retalking to about disclosure. The reports that I havedoes categorize the major decommissioning costs intothree major categories: license termination which isunder the jurisdiction of the Nuclear RegulatoryCommission; spent fuel management which is requiredsince they did get an exemption from the regulations;and the third which is more or less for informationpurposes for site restoration. So, all of thisinformation, I'm not sure where you're quoting that youdo or do not have.MR. REILLY: Well, I guess what I would askfor, if regulations are on the books, what is it thatbrings about the action of bringing an exemption? Idon't get it. Right here in this very document --MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: May I ask what documentNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 71are you looking at?MR. REILLY: The subject at hand, the LTPand the supplemental, it is what this meeting is allabout. There is a forecast moving forward from nowuntil the end of 2018 where there is a one percentresidual in the trust fund, right? So, if you go backand look at history here, you will see that licenseesby regulation are required to make from time to timeassessments of the very funds you talk about, fillingthe jar so to speak where money can be expended. Andin this particular case, the NRC allowed data that wasalmost 10 years old in considering the first licensetransfer.Secondly, then, there is reference in thisdocument that the licensee amended the PSDAR. What itis, they gave the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission anumber of sheets with estimates on it, no bids, nonothing covering that, and you guys gave them the greenlight. You transferred the license based on that.And then what happened was, after that, there was theissue of going and reviewing various different things.There was never any third party association.Now, we fast forward 56 months, we're givena forecast here where there is only a one percentNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 72residual left, $13 million out of 860 or whatever thenumber is. And we're expected to say, oh, that's fine,there's enough money here.MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: Well, again I'm notexactly sure where you're driving with all this, butagain I must remind you that the NRC regulates thefinancial requirements in order to make sure that thereare assurances that the plant will be safelydecommissioned. All indications from a financialstandpoint are that this is being done.What your moral is I think trying todetermine is why is there not more money left over, andagain I must advise you that will be under thejurisdiction of the State Public Utility Commission ofthe State of Illinois. Our regulations and ourfunction is to make sure that the plant is safelydecommissioned. All indications by all the reportsthat I have received from Zion Solutions since the timethat the license has been transferred and during thetime that they have in decommissioning, they arefulfilling their requirements. And they are going tohopefully successfully terminate the license when thesite has been deemed to be radiologically safe.MR. REILLY: I gather then what you'reNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 73saying is that the NRC can tell the people in this roomand in our community that advanced $860 million to thisproject that we are getting a fair and effectivedecommissioning even though we are not allowed to talkto the NRC nor the licensee about where they're spendingthe money, what their responsibilities are and theiraccountabilities? We're flying blind on that exceptfor your future assurances.MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: No, sir, you'relooking, you're not flying blind, you're looking in thewrong place. I again would advise you that all yourquestions, which are legitimate, are to be asked to theState Public Utility Commission of the State ofIllinois. The NRC's requirements, the NRC's functionis to make sure that that plant is done safely. Therehas been no indication of anything other than the factthat they will be able to successfully decommission theplant and that they have sufficient funds to do so. Allof your other concerns would again be more effectivelybrought to the attention of the Public UtilityCommission of the State of Illinois.MR. REILLY: Well, I don't think thePublic Utility Commission has anything to do with theallocation of resources that the public provided thatNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 74the NRC approved, and many of these do not qualify asdecommissioning expenses. They're subjective. So,what that says to us is you are subjectively treatingthis and hiding behind the regulations. That's whatyou're doing, because there are many, many costs herethat are not decommissioning expenses by the rules andregs.MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: The only one that I didtalk about was spent fuel management which was, thelicensee was granted a regulatory exemption in orderto do exactly what you described. If you have otherfactors that show us that they are using money forsomething other, like, and I'm going to be sarcasticslightly, a trip to Las Vegas, then I wouldwholeheartedly advise you to make an allegation, submitan allegation to the NRC, because all of the indicationsthat would show that they are not providing the properfinancing would be is if we have an allegation thatshows that money is absolutely, without question, beingused for something other than all of the requirementsof decommissioning. Or if during the course of thetime that they are in decommissioning, the licenseesuddenly discovers that they do not have enough financeto finish this plan safely, that would trigger a wholeNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 75different sort of regulations which would requireadditional information.But at this time, none of these thingsexist. So, again my advice to you would be that yourconcerns go to the Public Utility Commission of theState of Illinois. They are the proper agency, theyhave the jurisdiction, they have the authority to askthose questions that you are looking for.MR. REILLY: I will respectfully sayyou're either uninformed or misinformed. The USNuclear Regulatory Commission itself undertook aninvestigation on Exelon's decommissioning trust. Asyou may know, it was a multi-quarter investigation.This investigation included these two very licenses.So, if you'd like to speak about why somebody in anotherarea of the NRC decided to make this, without comingto the State of Illinois I might add, to ask about thepeople that are regulating Congress, why is it theycarried out that investigation? And why in factweren't any of the findings ever presented to us despiteus asking?MR. WATSON: I think you're mixing anumber of different issues, but there was aninvestigation into the Exelon Corporation'sNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 76decommissioning funding issues, and it did include Ibelieve looking at the Zion's systems funding. Butthat's a separate issue from the license terminationplan, and that investigation I believe was resolved.And so, I believe that's public knowledge.Again, I want to reiterate what Mike hassaid. It appears that most of your questions are underthe jurisdiction of the Illinois Public ServiceCommission. So, you're welcome to contact them as youknow and file whatever grievance or concerns you havewith them. In the meantime, we are not in any situationWhere we would trigger any additional investigationsfrom the NRC over the decommissioning fund at ZionSolutions right now.So, do we have other people who would liketo speak? Can we --MR. KRAFT: A couple of short questionsagain. Mike, you may want to go to the mic. Could youtell us what parts of the 10 CFR we can find the actualNRC financial obligations?MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: While the licensee is inoperations, they are dictated under the regulations of10 CFR 50.75. This basically tells the licensee whilethey are in operations how much money they should beNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 77setting aside and how the formula is recalculated everytime that the biannual decommissioning funding reportwhich is under 10 CFR 50.75, they must make sure thatthey comply with all those regulations. Once alicensee goes into decommissioning, they are then underthe dictates of 10 CFR 50.82 which basically tells thelicensee that the licensee must only decommissioningtrust funds for decommissioning purposes under thecertain guidance that basically says that whateveractions, I'm again paraphrasing, whatever expensesthey do incur do not deplete the decommissioning trustfund to a point that they are unable to finishdecommissioning. 10 CFR 50.54(b) (b) regulates thefinancial plan for spent fuel management, and 10 CFR,I think it's 72, either 70 or 72 which dictates thedecommissioning of the ISFSI.MR. KRAFT: So, those are the requirementsfor the licensee. I guess my question is what part ofthe CFR articulates NRC's responsibilities in terms ofthe --MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: I think that that'sintricate to all the regulations because it's the NRC'sresponsibility to make sure that these regulations arecomplied with.NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 78MR. KRAFT: So, that would tell us whatyour obligations are in terms of overseeing thelicensee?MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: I think I understood thequestion.MR. WATSON: The technical review, Ithink, that's inherent to the regulation.MR. KRAFT: Is that correct?MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: I think I understand thequestion that if the technical review that we conductis in compliance with the regulations, is that thequestion?MR. KRAFT: I just want to know. what theNRC itself considers its obligation in terms offinances, and what part of the CFR would we find thatin? The sections you dictated were --MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: I think I'm beginning tounderstand the question a little bit better.MR. KRAFT: What's the agency's --MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: I believe that they areintricate to all those regulations that I just told you.MR. KRAFT: All right. Then the questionthat follows from that is you said there are 10decommissionings, is that correct?NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 79MR. WATSON: Completed.MR. KRAFT: Completed, all right. Is itthe NRC's policy, or would we find it in the CFRsomewhere, to permit companies to conductdecommissioning without following standard accountingprinciples and practices?MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: I would say that's acorrect statement, yes.MR. KRAFT: And I'm not sure that this isan obligation, but you're aware that the contractorhere operated for up to three years without an auditor?MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: Yes.MR. KRAFT: And that's perfectly allright?MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: I would not say it'sperfectly all right, but nothing that you havedescribed so far does not show any kind of violationto our regulations.MR. KRAFT: Well, that's what I'm gettingat is, so there is no regulation that actually requiresan auditor for a decommissioning? And the follow-upquestion for that is on any of the 10 previousdecommissionings, were any of them conducted withouthaving an auditor?NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 80MR. WATSON: I really can't answer that,but I know there are federal regulations from the,what's it, FERC? Federal Energy, what's that called?MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: Federal EnergyRegulatory Commission.MR. WATSON: Yes, on accounting, how theutilities are supposed to do their accounting and thereare regulations on that. And I'm sure that is alsoprobably a requirement, there are requirements from theState Utility Commission, too.MR. KRAFT: The NRC doesn't have them?MR. WATSON: No. Like I said, the actualaccounting requirements are under FERC, I know, for anoperating facility. And I would assume they wouldcontinue to follow the same type of requirements fora decommissioning site. Okay?MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: I'll sit in the frontnow.MR. WATSON: Can we get some lights on overhere, too? Working on it? Okay, okay. Yes, sir?MR. CARROLL: Hi, my name is Mark Carrolland I'm with Murray & Trettel, we're meteorologicalconsultants. And we have actually been maintaining ameteorological tower here at Zion for 40 years. AndNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 81at some point this year, actually very soon, we're goingto be decommissioning the meteorological tower here.And I'm just trying to get, because we work in 20 plusother plants around the country that will be goingthrough this process somewhat, is it the fact that thefuel is now on the move to the, what's that word, ISFSI?MR. WATSON: Dry storage.MR. CARROLL: Is that the trigger pointfor the decommissioning of the met tower? And again,I'm trying to learn for future reference for these otherclients that we work with when we get to this point.MR. WATSON:wrong, but it's part ofstorage to ISFSI. It'smeteorological monitoringwith the site. Correct?MR. EDWARDS:MR. CARROLL:a big tower and all that?MR. EDWARDS:answer to your question.is no effluents releasedfacility, and therefore,have the met tower forRextheourandcan correct me if I'mlicensing for the dryrequirements for doingother things associatedYes. Yes, Bruce.But it's not on the scale ofI don't know the exactI would speculate that therefrom the dry cask storagethey wouldn't necessarilymonitoring. But that'sNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701(202) 234-4433(202) 234-4433 82speculating.PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: We couldn't hearyou.MR. EDWARDS: I responded that I don'tknow the exact reason. As Bruce was going towards thedry cask storage facility, it doesn't release anythingso there's no effluents coming out of there. So, thatmay be part of the reason why the licensee has decidedto decommission the met tower.MR. CARROLL: That's probably true. Someof the work that we did showed that the long-termaverage meteorology has been consistent through theyears. So, if they're using that for anything in thefuture, well, there just won't be any real-time dataif there's no release from that.MR. WATSON: Okay, thank you for yourquestion or comment. Anybody else?MS. LEWISON: Yes. Can you help me outwith this thing? I'm not sure --MR. WATSON: We're back to, can you sayyour name again?MS. LEWISON: I'm not sure I remember --MR. WATSON: Can you identify yourselfagain?NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 83MS. LEWISON: Linda Lewison, NuclearEnergy Information Service and Sierra Club Nuclear FreeCampaign. At one of the most recent ZCAP meetings,John Sauger, is that correct, mentioned the possibilitythat Zion Solutions may run out of funds and that therewould be, in terms of the trust funds, that they would,they meaning perhaps Energy Solutions/Zion Solutions,would cover the gap if that happened. It had to do withvariation in the stock market where the funds wereinvested, that they would then cover it if there wassuch a gap.So, is that, if you could help me with that,people who were at that meeting, I might not be quotingthe situation correctly, could that be in terms of whatthe NRC would see as proper kinds of financing toapprove of?MR. WATSON: I think along with the, goahead.MR. ORLIKOWSKI: Hi, Linda. I was at thatZCAP meeting. I can't, I don't want to speculate ortry and derive what John's'statement said. After thatmeeting, I did reach out to Mike Dusaniwskyj and Imentioned that and, you know, we did look at the fundsto verify that there are sufficient funds. So, as farNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 84as the, you know, we verified that the funding is thereto complete the decommissioning. So, other than that,I can't speculate on the comment itself.MR. WATSON: Anybody else? Comments,questions? Back there? Oh, I thought I saw someonemotioning, okay. Got a gentleman up here who hasn'tspoken yet.PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: Hi. Tim Erdwellwith Reduce Magazine. Just a question. The date2018 has been set for license termination. Does thatmean that the NRC will have published in the FederalRegister the release of a site or is there kind of anestimate on the timeline of when that actual licensewill be terminated?MR. WATSON: We can't give you a specificdate when the license will be terminated. It ispending our verification and confirmatory surveys ofthe site. And it's also with them documenting thefinal condition of the site which they'll do throughthe final status survey reports, okay. And that reviewwill take a certain amount of time, I can't, based onthe quality of that, we may have to request or issueinformation from them, so I really can't put a time lineon that. I know it usually takes a few months if notNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433* o 85more, sometimes depending on the volume of materialthey provide to us.PUBLIC PARTICIPANT: Just a follow-upquestion, too. I'm not sure where the NRC is in this,but the rulemaking for decommissioning plants, wouldthat affect the license termination plan at any point?MR. WATSON: No. The NRC staff has beenasked by the Commission to put in decommissioningregulations which will cover the transitioning period.As mentioned before, we had five plants shut down inthe last few years, and these regulations were newregulations intended to make that a smoother processfrom when a plant shuts down to getting intodecommissioning. Because for each one of these plantsthat prematurely shut down, there's about, I want tosay 20-25 licensing actions that have to take place,some of those could be codified to make it simplerbecause they are based on a lot of operating status andplant conditions. So, that's what we've been asked todo and which we'll start that here in 2016 I believe.So, it's a separate issue, it has no effecton the current regulations as they exist. It will takea number of years to provide the regulations thatrequires public comment on the review, you name it, toNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 86get those implemented. So, that's the current statusof that situation. So, we did have, like I said, fiveplants prematurely shut down, and so they didn'tnecessarily follow the normal process that the originalregulations were intended to be satisfied with becausein a normal shutdown process, they're required to tellus five years in advance if they plan to shut down, soall those licensing actions can be prepared by thelicensee and we are prepared to handle those.So, in this case, we had the five plantsbasically instantaneously shut down, and so there wereall these various issues to be resolved because wedidn't have that in the regulations. Additionalquestions? Yes, Mr. Reilly.MR. REILLY: I thank everybody for theirquestions. I am Tom Reilly, executive principal ofVISTA360. And I do have a question about Chapter 7,7-2 of the Zion Station restoration project. And itrelates to the implementation now of a third partycalled TLG at the 2000 assessment in Zion. Isn't thisorganization external and don't they possess otherpeople's information? So, now apparently they wouldpossess the redacted information of the licensee incoming to the conclusion that we have adequate funds,NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 87would that be a correct assumption?MR. WATSON: TLG is a company thatspecializes in doing decommissioning estimates. Theyare currently owned by, I believe the EntergyCorporation which is another large utility, to the bestof my recollection. I don't know what the contractualagreements were between Exelon or anybody else withthem, but they may have hired them to do some work whichmay have been under a confidential agreement. That'snot within the NRC's requirements. Like I said, wejust require that they provide the financial assuranceto make sure that we have reasonable judgment that theyhave the funds available to do the decommissioningsafely.MR. REILLY: Is that document available?MR. WATSON: What document?MR. REILLY: The TLG document that assuresthat. It's referred to here as a collaborativedocument or collaborative effort to determine theseassurances.MR. WATSON: I don't know if that was eversubmitted to the NRC.MR. REILLY: Could you request it? Wewould like you to request it, maybe in a formal request.NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 88MR. WATSON: Okay, we have the Freedom ofInformation Act.MR. REILLY: We're asking you to requestit for your records, not us. We're not --MR. WATSON: We will look at the record ifwe need to look at to review to make our decisions inthe present time. But going back and looking at 2002or whatever --MR. REILLY: No, it's not 2000, it's righthere, sir. They're talking about recently.MR. WATSON: Recently?MR. REILLY: They're talking about sincethe spring of 2014, the third quarter of 2014. It'son page 7.2 here.MR. WATSON: Okay.MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: I'm trying to rememberif they submitted that or not. I am familiar with theTLG report because there are a number of licensees thathave used this company in order to come up with anestimate, usually when it comes time for the PSDAR, thePost Shutdown Decommissioning Activities Report. Thelicensee is free to summarize those findings withoutnecessarily submitting the document itself. That'swhy I'm trying to remember whether the TLG report forNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 89Zion was ever submitted, and if it was, it would be partof our --MR. REILLY: Great. Are you speakingabout 2000?MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: Yes.MR. REILLY: The answer is yes, it was,I'll confirm that to you.MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: Thank you.MR. REILLY: I'm not speaking of that, I'mreferencing that. What I'm referencing now is ZionSolutions assurances to the NRC in the LTP document thatsays that we in collaboration with TLG, this is TLG now,what would it be, it would be 15 years later. They'vegone back to TLG. So, presumably they have sharedinformation with TLG who you indicate is a wealth ofknowledge or --MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: It is a contractor toZion Solutions, yes. And my statement to you again isthat the licensee is always free to summarize what thatreport was without necessarily submitting the TLGreport itself. Now, if your reports say that it wassubmitted in 2010?MR. REILLY: No.MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: What year?NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 90MR. REILLY: We're talking in the lastfour months here, the last five months.MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: Okay. And again I'msaying to you --MR. REILLY: It doesn't say it wassubmitted. They said that to convince the NRC in somany words, they went and got this expert that they'recollaborating with. So, my question is you have takenthem at their word or you've actually looked at the workproduct of the collaboration to determine, yes, theirnumbers are right on the money, there's plenty of moneyin the--MR. DUSANIWSKYJ: I want to make sure thatwe're absolutely clear about one thing here. You'respeaking about a document that was done by TLG for ZionSolutions?MR. REILLY: Yes. And it appears righthere on page 7.2.MR. WATSON: Okay. I think, okay, whatyou're doing is going into significant detail. We havedone what we call an acceptance review. We believethey've addressed the major issues that are requiredto be in the LTP. We are now beginning our detailedreview. Mr. Dusaniwskyj would be looking at theNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 91financial information. If he has a question about thatparticular report from TLG, he can certainly requestthat or in the form of a request for additionalinformation, request that of a licensee to provide thatinformation if he feels a need to have that information.So, at this point we don't have an answerfor you because we're just beginning our detailedreview. And so, I will leave it up to the financialexperts if they feel they need that information toprovide that request to our project manager who willthen provide that information in a public document,make it publicly available that we've requested thatinformation.MR. REILLY: How do we move forward if thepublic has questions that are not of a regulatory andcommerce? I just want to simply know what the NRC isthinking. Can we only do that in a public meeting orin fact will staff speak to us?MR. WATSON: I think the best way to do.that is through a letter to the NRC requesting whateverinformation you need clarification on.MR. REILLY: Okay.MR. WATSON: I mean we've done that in thepast with many people, I mean I'm sure includingNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 92yourself.MR. REILLY: Well, we did call about fourmonths ago, we called for a special meeting. I'mfinances, so we would be able to give the NRC ampleopportunity to be able to address this important matterwith the local public. Frankly, we were told by theNRC that there are travel budget issues and that theycouldn't do so, but the members of the public cancertainly travel to Washington to speak to the NRC.So, we're kind of wondering what in the hell is goingon with that?We have a billion dollar budget and thisis a billion dollar project and we're down to, we'vealready blown through $600 or $700 million. And thecompany, I might say, the very management that you seemto be supporting, it's very important to sayhistorically this is the same management that destroyedalmost a billion dollars in market cap. This licenseealso misled investors. They had to settle in tens ofmillions of dollars for, if you will,misrepresentation. And now you seem to be saying that,well, TLG, we don't really need to look at that, thelicensee is putting down --MR. WATSON: We did not say that. We saidNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 93if we feel a need to look at that document, we willrequest it. My point is that you've requested a letterwhich you sent to the NRC management and asked for somekind of a meeting on financial issues. Apparently themanagement of the NRC decided that was not appropriateat this time. I do know that our people arecontinuously looking at financial issues, especiallythe decommissioning area.Now, like I said, we only regulate theradiological decommissioning. Most of the questionswe get are about the entire decommissioning includingsite restoration, fuel management, and a variety oftopics. You know, these are not only questions thatwe will be able to answer if we get the correctquestions, but also, you know, they are also a matterof the Public Utility Commission. So, you know, havinga meeting with the NRC where most of the costs arecontrolled or required by a Public Utility Commissionon how they're collected and used are not our purview.MR. REILLY: Well, I respectfullydisagree. First of all, the licensee has to give youfull notice that you're taking down decommissioningcosts. The decommissioning costs have to pair up with,if you will, the bills which they have to pay beforeNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 94they can take it down. There is also a provision thatallows you to question any single financialtransaction. We see that the NRC has not done that onany occasion, they have not taken any effort to evenexamine one of those takedowns. And for those peoplethat are assembled, these takedowns aren't $50,000 or$100,000, they're 10 million, 20 million, 60 million,that the NRC has its blinders on when you in fact dohave control of that. So, I take exception with that.In regard to these meetings and whatnot,I want to take you back to the very first meeting whichwas with the branch chief and the staff from the NRCheadquarters. And you can go and check the transcriptof that very first meeting pre license transfer wherethe branch chief told us in no less than five times thatthe NRC regards input from the public of the utmostimportance, that all questions were noted and would beanswered. What we find very strange here in month 56is the NRC never contacted one person on the sign-insheet. The NRC never justified why the licensetransfer order went.We had to fight the NRC, I might ask, andI thwarted us, and there is record on this, we askedthem for the copy of the letter of credit thatNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 95guaranteed the licensee that is in the Commissionorder. And the NRC said we don't have it. So, we'dlike to know what gives the NRC the ability tocircumvent Freedom of Information Act law? We'dreally like to know that, we'd like that to be part ofthe record here. And we'd love to hear from the peoplefrom D.C. that couldn't be at this meeting to tell ushow that happens when it's in the Commission order.MR. WATSON: The only thing I can commenton is that you are welcome to use the Freedom ofInformation Act, the FOIA process to ask for anydocuments that you would like.MR. REILLY: And I am telling you we didthat and we'appealed that. And additionally, it wasn'tgiven to us. We were told that the very instrument thatguaranteed the licensee's financial performance wasnot available, that the NRC didn't have it, despite thefact that the transfer order had been approved by theCommission. So, we wonder, well, how does this happenin a bureaucratic world? I mean we've got all kindsof regulations.MR. WATSON: All I can tell you is we areresponsible to the Office of Management Budget andother accounting agencies in the government to followNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 96the FOIA process. And if a formal request was made,there's got to be a record of that and there's also gotto be a record of what was responded to. And I honestlycan't speak to that.MR. REILLY: Would you be able to get backto us? On that record?MR. WATSON: Yes, we'll look into it.John will look into it.MR. REILLY: Sure. How much time wouldyou need for that?MR. WATSON: A lot of records.MR. REILLY: Well, our FOIA request isgoing to come out, the time line will be very evidentby the project manager. The response will be veryadequate, too. I mean will you need two months, threemonths?MR.MR.HICKMAN:REILLY:Yes.Three months, okay.Verywell.look,elseokay.in theMR. WATSON: Fair question, but we'llDo we have any other comments from anybodygroup?MS. ORE: I don't think I need this, I'mMy dad helped build the power plant.a teacher.NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701(202) 234-4433(202) 234-4433 97MR. WATSON: Excuse me. Could you --MS. ORE: Diane Ore. My dad helped buildthe power plant as a pipefitter, a union pipefitter.And I'm very disappointed that we're so outnumbered.If everybody stood up that works and is involved, I feellike we just have a handful of people and I'm verydisappointed. So, I'm hoping if you do interface withthe public again, that you are going to make us awarewith more publication. The only reason I knew aboutthis is because of my husband. And this is just not,I think a lot more people would have come, I think ifyou would let us know. Thank you.MR. WATSON: Thank you.MS. LEWISON: I would like to end with arequest for you about the fuel pools. We are all inclear and present danger when you take down, or if youtake down those fuel pools. I would beg of you to takeanother look at the technology that exists. Itdoesn't, it hasn't been tested, and it's not on site,and we need those fuel pools to stay intact for theduration of when the dry casks are on the ISFSI pads.So, I'm not talking about finances at allhere, although we know that is part of it, just in termsof the safety of all of us. Please keep those fuelNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 98pools up and filled. Thank you.MR. WATSON: I think this was adequatelyaddressed in the long-term storage studies and stuffthat were done recently. And so, I would refer you backto look at those. I understand your position, but it ' sbeen addressed by the NRC in that work. Thank you.Anybody else have any questions?Comments? I said we will be here until 9:00 o'clock.MR. ORLIKOWSKI: Do you want to mentionthat they can still submit comments?MR. WATSON: Oh, yes, yes. In the back isthe sheet that has the information on how you canprovide written comments to us. So, this is not theonly opportunity to provide comments on the Zion LTP.You can go to the website or there's other informationthat's available there. You can actually look at theZion LTP and download it if you want to really take alook at the document itself. We also have the meetingfeedback forms in the back, so you can provide yourcomments to us from this meeting. And we will beaccepting comments, what, another 90 days or something?Another 90 days on the Zion LTP.So, we welcome your comments and we willtake a look at those and, like I said, we will evaluateNEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 99them from a safety and environmental perspective.Obviously, as we said before, there are financialissues that we maybe need additional information on.So, you're welcome to provide written comments and theinformation is back on the table. And so, anythingelse to add?We'll be here until 9:00 o'clock becausethat's what we advertised, but thank you very much.(Whereupon, at 8:08 p.m, the meeting wasconcluded.)The NRC staff and the recorder remaineduntil 9pm to be available for comments from the public.NEAL R. GROSSCOURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433