ML23240A526
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| Issue date: | 03/15/2023 |
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1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
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35TH REGULATORY INFORMATION CONFERENCE (RIC)
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FIRESIDE CHAT
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WEDNESDAY, MARCH 14, 2023
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The session convened at the Bethesda North Marriott Hotel and Conference Center, located at 5701 Marinelli Road, North Bethesda, Maryland and via Videoconference, at 11:15 a.m. EDT, the Honorable Christopher T. Hanson, Chairman, NRC, presiding.
PRESENT:
CHRISTOPHER T. HANSON, Chairman, NRC WILLIAM D. MAGWOOD IV, Director-General, Nuclear Energy Agency NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
2 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 11:15 A.M.
CHAIRMAN HANSON: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Fireside Chat. We were just talking a few minutes ago, if I'd really been thinking ahead, I would have us pre-load that crackling fire loop on YouTube that broadcasts on the screens back here for my fireside chat with my friend and colleague, Bill Magwood.
I'm pleased to welcome Nuclear Energy Agency Director General William D. Magwood IV to join me in this Fireside Chat, and I'm especially grateful to you, Bill, for your willingness to step in on short notice when Ambassador Holgate was no longer able to participate. I think we're going to have a great discussion.
As many of you know, Bill Magwood is a veteran of the RIC stage, as both NEA Director General and as an NRC Commissioner from 2010 to 2014. He has extensive experience in both the regulatory and developmental aspects of nuclear energy. Prior to his appointment at the NRC from 2005 to 2010, he provided independent strategic and policy advice to U.S. and international clients on energy, environment, education, and technology policy issues.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
3 From 1998 to 2005, Mr. Magwood was Director of the U.S. Government Civilian Nuclear Energy Program at the U.S. Department of Energy.
During his tenure in that role, he established the Idaho National Laboratory, created activities that reversed the decline of U.S. nuclear technology education, and launched important initiatives such as the Generation IV International Forum and the U.S.
Nuclear Power 2010 Program which helped restart nuclear power plant construction in the United States.
He has served as Director General of the OECD's Nuclear Energy Agency since September 2014, guiding the Agency to advance nuclear education and mentorship, safety culture, research, innovation, and SMR strategy initiatives.
Please join me in welcoming Director General Bill Magwood.
Let's start with SMRs, shall we? And we noticed just recently that NEA launched its SMR dashboard evaluating kind of the readiness of 21 different SMR technologies.
So what are the key findings from this kind of comparative analysis that the dashboard did and what do you think are the benefits of this kind of resource for member countries or any countries for NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
4 that matter?
MR. MAGWOOD: I'd be very happy to talk about this, but first before launching that, let me just again congratulate you and your team, Andrea and Ray, particularly, for putting this together after so many years. Congratulations for that. It's always a pleasure to see all of my friends and colleagues here from the NRC, many of which are still here doing the holy work that they do. It's really a pleasure. Of course, the biggest pleasure for me is that when I come to the RIC, I get about 85 percent of my annual dose of hugs and that's extremely important.
CHAIRMAN HANSON: I'm clearly doing this wrong.
MR. MAGWOOD: Yes. You know, so we did release the SMR roadmap earlier this week and it's really a result of a lot of work and a lot of thought.
And the reason that we did it was, as you know, regulators and policymakers around the world have taken note of the fact that there's so many different concepts out there.
You know, the IAEA counts over 80 different projects to develop SMRs and it's pretty common to hear the statement from naysayers that these technologies will take decades to realize any benefit NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
5 and they can't really help with the energy transition.
What we wanted to do was to put some reality to that and to recognize that yes, there are some concepts that won't be available until the 2040s perhaps. But as the dashboard shows, some of these projects are going to come into fruition much, much sooner. And, as you know, because you've already licensed one of them, or did a design certification for one of them.
The dashboard shows that there are a significant number of technologies that are on track to be available in the 2030 timeframe and that is a very significant piece of understanding to take into this because what it means is that these technologies are not fantasies, they're not concepts, they're not possibilities. They are here. They are now. They're going to be available. They're going to be on the market and they're going to be available to make tremendous changes in the way we produce electricity and heat. And so that's the biggest take away.
The other thing I would highlight is that it also means that those of us in the international community and government regulators, industry as a whole, really have to get ready because this is -- we don't have ten years to think about this. If we don't NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
6 have the pieces in place to make these projects successful and able to deploy them on a commercial scale, we're going to miss the very important window of opportunity. So the time is now to really take immediate action to prepare for this.
CHAIRMAN HANSON: Yes, yes. Can you talk a little about -- we've seen in some countries and in the United States I think of the Advanced Reactor Demonstration Program, right, where there's money on the Department of Energy side, but also it implies work on the regulator side. So in a sense it is -- it does become kind of a three-legged stool if you will, with industry participation, what we would call our department, but ministries in other countries, and the regulator.
Can you talk about how maybe the dashboard or just your road map kind of sheds light on those key elements or maybe other key elements that are necessary?
MR. MAGWOOD: Well, I think you have to look at each of the technologies individually. And you'll see that some of them are making progress in certain areas and others are making more progress in other areas. And I think universally there are vulnerabilities in the system. And one that I know NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
7 you're very familiar with is the lack of HALEU. HALEU is going to be a major impediment for some of these designs and the dashboard highlights the fuel is not available for some of these reactors. And that's something that will require both industry and government and ultimately regulators to take action very quickly.
And those of us who have been in this business for a while know that nothing happens quickly, so if you decide right now today to build that capacity, it isn't going to be there tomorrow.
It's going to take years to put it in place, so that's why it's so important to move forward.
So you're right. All those legs of the stool have to be focused on issues like that, but there are other issues as well including the need for trained people. That's going to require some help from governments to make sure that we have the right people coming through our educational institutions who are trained not just on the engineer level, but also on the skills level, to be available to actually implement what we're talking about.
CHAIRMAN HANSON: Traits.
MR. MAGWOOD: Traits, yes, yes, absolutely. Go find a stainless steel welder today.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
8 It's hard.
CHAIRMAN HANSON: Yes, no. I sometimes think about these as a series of chicken and egg problems, right? Having the regulatory pathway, right? That regulatory line of sight for an applicant is one of those challenges, but it's not the only one or even necessarily, as you said, depending on the technology, the most important one.
MR. MAGWOOD: Right.
CHAIRMAN HANSON: For these things. As you develop that roadmap then, to kind of tackle these other challenges, are there -- well, HALEU is a great example, right? Industry and government kind of coming together to tackle that. Are there other areas like that too, then?
MR. MAGWOOD: When I think about where we are today and I look -- and I think this is all informed by the past, by past experience, what has not gone well. We've already talked about the HALEU issue. Actually, fuel in general is a bit of an issue in the current environment.
CHAIRMAN HANSON: Yes.
MR. MAGWOOD: Training of people is an issue. But I think for what we are seeing the people would like to do in the future, the one thing that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
9 probably worries me more than anything else is the supply chain, the industrial capacity to actually build these facilities.
Many people in this room, when Vogtle was first approved for to go forward and the Commission signed off on that or actually the EDO signed off on that, we were pretty confident at the time that the supply chain was in place to build those facilities.
And almost immediately, we saw that there were problems. Suppliers that thought they were capable, thought they had the capacity to deliver parts really didn't and there had to be new training and recertification of some of these sub-suppliers who honestly thought they could do it until they couldn't, right?
And so when you think about the plethora of suppliers that would be necessary to effect these new reactors, how many of them are going to not be able to deliver on schedule? How many of them are going to be impediments to progress? And how do you figure that out at this stage in the game?
So supply chain industrial capacity overall is the single biggest worry I have. I just --
I'm not convinced that we're prepared to build the large number of facilities that are anticipated.
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10 I also, quite honestly, I worry a bit about the global regulatory infrastructure. As you noted in some of your remarks, some of the international partners don't have the capacity yet to actually license and oversee these reactors. But even experienced regulators around the world aren't ready for what's coming. We work with them quite regularly and many of them are not prepared to deal with these new technologies, these new questions that come up.
And so the regulatory community itself is at risk of being an impediment to the progress and that's a big challenge.
CHAIRMAN HANSON: Yes, I worried for some time that -- well, I think the diversity of technologies and the number of the technologies out there, makes it almost impossible for any regulator to kind of tackle them all on their own. And so therefore, an in-depth technical cooperation on an international scale I think is imperative because there are parts, as you know, you know this maybe better than anyone. There are parts of the world where there's deep expertise on particular kinds of technologies, gas reactors or molten salt and fast spectrum reactors and other kinds of things that all of us can benefit from, right?
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
11 And the U.S. is a repository along with Japan of boiling water reactor technology, et cetera.
So there are lots of pockets like that and I think it drives, I hope, international cooperation in a real way among regulators, particularly.
MR. MAGWOOD: One of the things and I think you've heard me talk about this, one of the hallmarks of regulatory life in the post-Fukushima Daiichi period is that regulators around the world talk to themselves all the time, you know. They see each other. I mean, I've seen Rumina Velshi at least three times in the last -- in this year alone, I'm sure you've seen her.
CHAIRMAN HANSON: You and me both.
MR. MAGWOOD: Yes. And other -- Mark Foy, another of our colleagues, we see them all the time.
It's a regular exchange.
Most people outside the regulatory community have no idea how much regulators talk among themselves now and how much interaction there is. And you highlighted the very important work that's going on between U.S. NRC and the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission on joint activities on different technologies. That, I think, is what I see evolving.
You know, theres a lot of discussion on NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
12 harmonization, I'll share with you that a few years ago before you were chair, the NRC, the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission and the Office of Nuclear Regulation in U.K., under the auspices of an NEA-fostered discussion, looked at how you could do this, how harmonization might be done. And the conclusion that came out of that was that talking about this on a generic basis is almost a waste of time. There's really very little useful work that can be done. You have to work on a design-specific basis.
And so now the question is how do regulators come about to do that? We certainly have had some ideas about this. It's proven to be difficult to herd all the cats at the same time because different regulators and different positions, but what I see evolving from the conversation is this concept of just sharing what's been done.
CHAIRMAN HANSON: Yes.
MR. MAGWOOD: So if NRC has the design certification for NuScale, you can share that with other regulators and then perhaps there needs to be a regime to assure that this is done in an appropriate fashion. But that seems to be the direction things are taking. I know there's plans for more grandiose things, but I think that's probably where we'll go, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
13 just the sharing of analysis and sharing of experience. And that's something you already know how to do.
CHAIRMAN HANSON: Yes, well, thank you for that. I think one of the enablers of some of these new -- the focus on specific designs has been the willing vendor or applicants in the case of our cooperation with Canada, particularly. And then that kind of gets to the other side of the coin on harmonization which is really standardization and I've heard the concern from some vendors, first of all, they don't necessarily have the resources themselves to try and tackle multiple regulatory regimes at the same time or kind of bring those together, but there's also the worry of well, if there's the concern about harmonization as we've set the floor, we're worried about standardization is that now we have to design to the higher of all the requirements and somewhere between those things lies potentially the solution that ensures safety for the public and these other kinds of issues.
Are there thoughts about how to -- by the NEA about how to kind of spur additional interactions, again, on specific designs for these things?
MR. MAGWOOD: There's a very simple answer NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
14 to that and that is that in my view, it depends on your dance partners. If you choose the right dance partners, that rise to the top is reasonable. You don't have extremes. So it's really a matter of knowing who your partners are and choosing the right partners. If you choose the wrong partners, you might end up in a shorter race to conservatism which would be unhelpful.
But as far as the cost to do the vendors, in my view, if this is done correctly, there shouldn't be a large increase in cost for the vendors. It should be something that can be shared responsibilities across different regulators and therefore, maintaining a reasonable cost. So I think all these can be managed. It's really a manner, as I've said, choosing the right partners to do the work with.
CHAIRMAN HANSON: Yes. Are there -- I had a question here kind of about -- along the lines of the standardization and in particular, this person was asking about Korea's strategy on the Korean standard nuclear plant the APR1400 and sometimes that's been cited as an exemplary case of having achieved this.
Obviously, they got their design certification in the United States. Our friends in the UAE have, of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
15 course, the most relevant and direct experience to date on this.
But kind of what's your thoughts about kind of diversity and design and design standardization then? I think this person was kind of asking about it in that context.
MR. MAGWOOD: Yes. I mean we've often had this conversation about standardization and it's hard to achieve, quite frankly, because the requirements and the needs of different customers create the variety.
However, I do think that there is a chance of having standardized designs on an international basis and I think the APR1400 is one. The ABWR is still out there. That's another one where I think that could happen. The AP1000, perhaps, because now we will -- we have AP1000s operating in China. We've gone critical in the United States, hooray, thank God.
And now Poland might be next in line.
So there is a chance to have this happen.
But it's going to require a lot of regulatory cooperation, a lot of industrial cooperation to make it happen and also some discipline on the side of the owners to not make changes that don't need to be made and non-essential changes that don't need to be made.
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16 CHAIRMAN HANSON: Yes. Thank you. The dashboard also has this element in there about engagement and while it's kind of defined broadly, we have at various points this week had a discussion on public engagement and trust and the dashboard at the moment at least kind of shows a wide range or wide variety and differences across different countries and society and so are there kind of -- how is the NEA thinking about best practices for engagement and how are you supporting members in this area?
MR. MAGWOOD: Yes. Since I've been at the NEA, this has become a major point of conversation and I'll just share. It really flows from what I learned at the NRC. I think my friends from Region III, the Region III communication staff, are you guys still here somewhere? I don't know if you're still here or not, but we had a fantastic experience where I met with the public around the Braidwood site and we spent
-- we were scheduled to sit there for about an hour and talk to the public. The discussion went on for over three hours.
And I remember after that discussion, a lady who had been very upset at the beginning came to me and she said this was the first time that a senior official has come here and really talked to us and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
17 listened to us. And she said it means a lot.
And I walked away with that realizing that something that I had heard, but really hadn't really fully embraced, was that public acceptance, this isn't just information flow, it's dialogue. It's listening and responding. It's recognizing more than anything else that we as public servants work for them.
CHAIRMAN HANSON: Yes.
MR. MAGWOOD: They don't work for us. And it is our job as public servants to communicate effectively with the public and engage them in these decisions. So a lot of the work the NEA has done including stakeholder engagement workshops in which we have one coming up in the spring -- excuse me, in September on optimization, we formed a new high-level group on stakeholder engagement in which we're now about to populate. I'm hoping that we'll get some really good people on that. But really just a lot of discussion and training. In fact, we just held a training course on risk communication. So there was a lot -- a wide variety of activities in this and this is something that's very important. And it really is, to me, one of the most important things for regulators or implementers to have that kind of public trust in communications.
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18 CHAIRMAN HANSON: Yes, that communication, I think Commissioner Crowell talked about this morning and plain language, very straight forward, two-way dialogue on that. So a lot of that can be back and forth between the regulator, but we've also seen countries, I'm thinking of Japan and France with kind of this society-wide, industrial policy debates.
That's not something we particularly do in the United States.
But do you think those kinds of debates can kind of be beneficial for regulators or are they kind of beneficial in and of themselves, do you think?
MR. MAGWOOD: I think you have to recognize that in some countries, it's part of the culture to have those kinds of discussions. Not so much here. It's not the way things get done, right?
I think we look -- I think Americans have always accepted there's regional and local differences that need to be observed. And having a big, national conversation about nuclear technology, personally, I think it would be a lot of effort with very little gain.
And as you know, we have this conversation, and there's some parts of the country if you said you were building a new nuclear power plant, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
19 they would throw a parade, other parts of the country where they'd be out with pitchforks and really, you have to understand those differences exist and we just accept them. We're not going to change them.
CHAIRMAN HANSON: Thank you. We've got time for just a little bit more discussion, but I wanted to -- one of the things I've certainly admired about you and the NEA has been your drawing attention to the need for greater diversity, particularly gender diversity in the nuclear field, writ large. And as I think Commissioner Caputo noted in her talk, you all have just released a report on this in the last week documenting kind of the current state of the gender balance with recommendations about how to attract and retain and advance women in the nuclear sector.
So if you could, I'd just like you to take a couple of minutes and share the contents of that report, what you all found, and kind of the recommendations for making progress in this area.
MR. MAGWOOD: Well, let me say this. I think a lot of the people who know me know that I've always promoted women and tried to increase the visibility of women. When I was at the Department of Energy, my first deputy was female and that was a deep select that kind of shocked people at the time, but NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
20 has proven very successful and I also now after having been away from DOE for a number of years see some of the young ladies that I brought in and promoted are now SESes and running things. It's kind of frightening. I don't know if they're -- I hope they're not out there. It kind of scared me that you guys grew up so fast.
But so I've always had that and always thought that was important, but it was always just kind of a personal reflection.
What we did in this report on gender balance in the nuclear sector, we through a task force that was formed by a steering committee that was chaired by Fiona Rayment with the National Nuclear Laboratory in the U.K., we surveyed I believe 34 organizations in 17 countries and 8,000 women around the world to give a picture of what was going on. And in the course of that, had many meetings and discussions and webinars and it was a real education for me. And let me tell you that I was -- I think the word I would use is dismayed to hear some of the stories. When I talked to women who would share the stories of experiences about things that had happened in nuclear organizations, remarks that were made, the fact -- one, I won't say which European country it is, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
21 but a European country where women in an exact same engineering position make 40 percent less than the equivalent men. How do these things happen in this stage?
So as we gathered the information, it really became a mission for us to try to not just do what others have done over the course of time which is chatter about it, have a workshop, have a conversation on stage, but we really wanted to try to put something on the table for our countries that would solve the problem and give them the opportunity to take substantive action.
So this report captures, reflects what we've learned, but also captures the policy thoughts of the people on this task force which includes NRC representatives who participate in this. And they have a three-pronged approach: first, to improve the communications. We build the pipeline to get more women into the nuclear sector. But also, I think one of the most important parts is looking at how do you retain and advance women who are in place. How do you support them? What do they need? And a lot of the things are no surprise to most of you. A lot of it has to do with making sure that people who have family responsibilities, women that have children, for NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
22 example, aren't penalized because they have to take time off. You have to have some flexibility, but also looking at things like how we recruit people.
I had the experience and I'll share this story. I'm watching the clock, too, Chair, so don't worry. I'll share this story. We had an opening for a senior position at the NEA and one of the candidates was a woman who is by nature a very demure, quiet, person and the panel after the interviews kind of threw her over the side, just said she's not leadership material. They wanted to focus on these guys who were more of the traditional, you know, strong voice, forceful attitude. And I questioned them on this. And I said well, why do you think she couldn't lead? Why are you so sure? Well, she's so quiet. I said she's quiet, but she's firm. Did you listen to what she was saying? Her ideas were very clear.
So I kind of just overrode the panel essentially and we hired her. And she's probably the most effective manager I have or one of them because I know one of them is in the audience, so I have to be careful.
(Laughter.)
One of the most effective managers I have.
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23 And it showed how the biases exist even in recruiting.
So the report attacks that as well and talks about how do you shape your recruiting so that you eliminate those biases. And to me, the most important thing in the report is that it also sets up a regime for data collection.
One of the things that was really quite remarkable was how will we actually know about what the situation is out there. How many women will get promoted? How much are they making? All this data, it was really hard to get anything. And so what we want to do is collect this data on a regular basis so that countries can compare themselves to others and see where they are. So I'm hopeful that this will be adopted more formally by our member countries.
I know it's a long road ahead, but as all of you who work in this sector know anything worth doing is worth the fight. And this is the fight I'm willing to take on.
CHAIRMAN HANSON: Thank you, very, very much. That's a great place I think to land in our discussion so thank you for your leadership on that issue and so many others for joining us today.
It's also a perfect segue. At 12:15 there's a lunch of the NRC's Federal Women's Program NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com
24 Advisory Committee over in the auditorium in Two White Flint. We're going to be hearing from Melina Belinco, of the Argentine regulator, talking about her activities and leadership in gender equity and diversity around the world. So I hope you all can join us for that.
Bill, thanks again so much.
MR. MAGWOOD: Thank you, Chair.
(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the record at 11:46 a.m.)
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