ML20195K316
| ML20195K316 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 06/15/1999 |
| From: | NRC |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 9906220056 | |
| Download: ML20195K316 (85) | |
Text
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
ALL EMPLOYEES MEETING B PUBLIC MEETING 4
Location:- Rockville, Maryland Date: Tuesday, June 15,1999 Pages: 1 - 82 g
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1025 Connecticut Avenue,NW, Suite 1014 Washington, D.C.20036
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DISCLAIMER
, This'is an unofficial transcript of a meeting of the United States Nuclear:. Regulatory Commission held on June
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15,.1999, in the Commission's; office at One White Flint North, Rockville, Maryland. The meeting was open to public attendance and-observation. This transcript has not been reviewed, corrected ~or edited, and it may c'ontain inaccuracies.
i The transcript is intended solely for general informational purposes. As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of the formal or informal record of decision of the 4
. matters discussed. Expressions of opinion in this
. transcript do'not necessarily reflect final determination or beliefs. No pleading or other paper may be filed with the
. ' Commission'in any proceeding as the result of, or addressed to, any statement or argument contained herein, except as the Commission may authorize.
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S- 1 I 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
'3 ***
4- OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY 5 ***
6 ALL EMPLOYEES MEETING B 7- ***
8 PUBLIC MEETING 9
10 Nuclear Regulatory Commission 11 Front Lawn 12 One White Flint North 13 11555 Rockville Pike 14 Rockville, Maryland 15 Tuesday, June 15, 1999 161 17 The Commission met in open session, pursuant to 18 notice, at 1:46 p.m., the Honorable SHIRLEY A. JACKSON, 19 Chairman of the Commission, presiding.
' 20-21 COMMISSIONERS PRESENT:
22 SHIRLEY A. JACKSON, Chairman of the Commission 23 EDWARD McGAFFIGAN,'JR., Member of the Commission 24 GRETA J. DICUS, Member of the Commission 25 JEFFREY S. MERRIFIELD, t. ember of the Commission ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 2 1 STAFF-AND PRESENTERS SEATED AT THE COMMISSION TABLE:
2 PATRICIA G. NORRY, Deputy Executive for Operations 3 SALLY ADAMS, ADM/DCPM/CMBI 4 STEPHEN M. POOL, ADM/DCPM, CMBI 5 BARRY T.'MENDELSOHN, NRR/DPRM/PGEB 6 -DAVID J. COLLINS, RGN-II/DRMA/IRB 7 KENNETH C. HECK, NRR/DRCH/HOMB
'8 DONALD K. HALL, AL.'1/DAS /ASC 9- ANTHONY J. GALANTE, CIO I i
.10 JAMES C. . STEWART, NRR/DRCH/HICB 11 AMY J. SILLER, ADM/DCPM. CMBI 12 .
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I 23 24 25 ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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r S- 3 1 PROCEEDINGS 2
{1:46 p.m.]
3- MS. NORRY: Good afternoon. Welcome to the 4 afternoon session of the Annual All Hands Meeting. After 5 the Chairman and Commissioners have made their remarks,
. 6 .there will be opportunity for questions and what we have 7 done-is given out some 3 x 5 cards.or maybe they are 5 x 7 8 cards, and if you don't have one and would like one, feel 9 free to get one from one of the ushers. If you want to 10 submit a question anonymously, you can pass it to one of the 11 ushers and it will be read, but we also encourage you to get 12 up and ask your question before the microphone, if you would 13 like to do that.
14 I would like to acknowledge the presence of NTEU 15 ~ officials sitting over here to my left and we have the EDO, 16 the CFO and the CIO with us this afternoon, and with that I 17 would like to introduce Chairman Jackson.
18 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Thank you very much, Mrs.
19- Norry. Good. afternoon, everyone' .
20 AUDIENCE CHORUS: Good afternoon.
21 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: With me today are NRC k
22 Commissioners' Greta Joy Dieus, Edward McGaffigan, and '
23 Commissioner Jeffrey'Merrifield. Commissioner Nils Diaz was ,
24 . hoping to be'here.but unfortunately is unable to attend i
25' because of illness.
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S- 4 1 On behalf of the Commission I would like to 2 welcome all of you to this special meeting of the Commission 3 with the NRC Staff and I extend that welcome both to those 4 of you assembled here in the tent this afternoon and also to 5 groups of employees connected to us by video conference and
- 6 telephone from the regions.
7 These All Employees meetings are an annual 8 tradition here now at the NRC as a forum to stimulate and to 9 facili 4te direct communication between the Commission and 10 individual members of the Staff on mission-related policies 11 and initiatives to clarify the Commission's agenda, to 12 engender a shared vision, and to motivate the NRC Staff in 13 pursuit of that vision.
14 In addition, this year has a special signific'ance 15 to me for two reasons -- one, the obvious, because this will 16 be the last meeting most likely that I will attend of NRC 17 All Employees, and secondly, because the past year has been 18 one of the most challenging and yet one of the most 19 rewarding and successful years in NRC history.
20 The challenges have come from many sides, but the 21 success I credit in large measure, in essentially all 22 measure, to the hard work that all of you have contributed 1
23 as well as to the considerable and primarily constructive 24 input we have received from a wide variety of NRC 25 stakeholders. At this time last year the future held some ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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.1 -uncertainty, to say-the least, and to some of you it may.
2 have looked downright bleak.
3 I believe though that it is to your credit as 1 4 members'of the.NRC Staff and NRC management as well as to 5 the credit of a very hard-working Commission that today we )
- 6 are-an agency once'again firmly.in control of our own future 7 and, clear and I hope confident about tne course that lies 18- . ahead.
9 As some of you may be aware, the Senate-10 Appropriations Committee recently approved the NRC full
.11' budget proposal at a time when other agencies are finding.
l2 'their budgets slashed significantly by that same committee.
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~, 13 While.we have yet to hear from the House side, the Congress f
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14 clearly is' sending a positive signal about our achievements 15 in the regulatory arena and about.the results of our 116 planning, budgeting-and verformance management efforts at 17 .the NRC,_and I did have occasion to meet very recently, 18 1within- the. last month, with the Chair of our ::ouse 19 Appropriations subcommittee, and that was a very,-very:
20 positive meeting, so l[ begin this All Employees Meeting by. j 21 saying to all-of you, congratulations on a job well.done and .
22 thank you.
}
23 Now when we-were facing budget stringencies and 24 criticisms'last year,. a member ~of my staff gave me a picture
'25 of a sharply meandering road with a caption at the bottom ANN RILEY.& ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 6 1 which read', "A bend in the road is not~the end of the road 2 unless you fail to make the turn." And we have begun to 3 make the turn and much remains to be done, but we are 4' . turning, and so the natural question-is how did we get here?
51 I would like to spend then a few minutes 6' reflecting on the accomplishments of the-past year, not only 7 the individual milestones but also the underlying framework 8 and concepts we have put into place over the pas. few years 9 .
w hich have understood and implemented consistently will 10 ensure stability and continued progress as we go forward.
11 At the highest conceptual level are 12 accomplishments of vision and these are the idea.s of 13 regulatory excellence that should be present consistently at 14 all levels of our organization as well as in all of our 15 policies,' rules, processes and individual interactions with 16- our stakeholders. Indeed, as some of you.may recall, 17 regulatory excellence was a key direction-se* ting issue --
18- remember the famous DSIs? -- of strategic assessment and 19 rebaselining.
20 Initially we struggled with this concept, but what 21- we have accomplished under this overarching umbrella has 22 given definition to what regulatory excellence reallp means.
23: The first of these represents the most important
-24 achievement of all, which is not a change. I refer to our 25 continued unambiguous focus on safety as the highest NRC ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATsS, LTD.
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S- 7 1 priority. Last year at this meeting I challenged you to 2 hold the center in the face of multiple external pressures 3 to ensure that we remember our fundamental regulatory health 4 and safety mission, and I believe that despite sweeping ^
5 changes to our regulatory processes and significant strides .
6 in improving our efficiency, we have' maintained this !
7 emphasis. We have in fact held the center. {
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The second achievement of vision is a new standard j 9 of regulatory effectiveness, another part in fact of the 10 aforementioned DSI at the NRC. We have become far more 11 introspective and self-critical in examining our own 12 regulations and programs -- words like " objectivity," i 13 " defensibility," "scrutability," and " timeliness" have 14 become familiar elements under which we judge the efficacy 1
15 of both existing programs as well as new innovations.
16 Tied directly to NRC regulatory effectiveness is )
- 17. an unapologetic emphasis we have on performance, what we 18 sometimes refer to,as an outcomes orientation as opposed to .1
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19 an outputs orientation. We have learned to demand a bottom 20 line focus on results, both from ourselves and from those we 21 regulate. This has-increased of course our focus on 22 developing and implementing measures of success or metrics.
23 The final achievement of vision is our success at 24 anticipating and positioning ourselves for change. This 25 element of vision is best characterized by examples which ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 8 1- ' range from license renewal to our efforts to prepare for 2 electric utility industry. restructuring.
3' The successful anticipation of change is ensured 4 'of' course by a healthy and. dynamic planning framework --
5 more about this later.
6 .The elements of vision that I have outlined in 7 essence have maintained our sense of the big picture and
- 8 they have led to the successful. establishment of several-9 elements of a fundamental lHIC framework, namely overarching 10 methodologies that guide our approach to a wide range of 11 agency programs and processes.
12 The first and perhaps the most obvious of these is
'13 the transition to risk-informed, performance-based 14 regulation. The prioritization of NRC regulatory 15 interactions in a manner.where the use of risk insights and 16 assessments is more explicit has become a fundamental
- 17 - characteristic of our approach to new' rules, rule changes,
- 18- program and process changes and even our budgeting and 19- resource loading.
20' This concept combined with our increased focus on J 21 defining measurable outcomes and demanding performance is 22_ becoming a familiar way of thinking at all levels of the NRC 23 an'd within the regulated-community, which may be the
-241 clearest indication of our success in this area.
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- 25. Another indication of our progress here is that we ]
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S- 9 L 1 are considering ways to risk-inform the entire body of 2 reactor regulations in Part 50 as well as oller requirements 3 in Parts 63, 70,'and 35.
4 A'second framework achievement is our purposefully 5L increased involvement of stakeholders in the regulatory 6 process. Clear communication and enhancement of public 7 -confidence are parts of this framework.
8 It also includes our stakeholder meetings, NRC 9 public workshops, _and our general efforts to be more open to 10 constructive criticism from the Congress, from our 11 licensees, from public interest groups, from general members 12 of the public, and from within our own organization. As i 13 with risk-informed regulation, I believe this acceptance of 14 .and appreciation for stakeholder input is becoming a way of
'15 thinking'at the NRC. 'As we go forward in this area though, 16 we must continue to' ensure that our efforts' provide equal i
17 access to all stakeholders rather than privileged access to 18 a select group.
19 The final fundamental framework achievement is in 20 a'way our insurance policy, which is the basis for our 21- confidence.that success will continue, and I'am' speaking of ;
I 22 our overhauled approach to planning, and once again, this 23 elemen* of the framework dovetails with the vision I laid
- 24. out' earlier, increasing our effectiveness and allowing us to l 25- anticipate and position for rapidly emergent change. I j
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S- 10 j 1 Like the other elements of our framework, our -
2 planning process has been built slowly and steadily.over 3 time, and has taken the involvement of each of you from 4 strategic assessment and rebaselining, which we began in 5 1995, to the multiyear strategic plan, the yearly 6 performance plan, and the office level operating plans, and 7 we have finally come to our present PBPM or Planning, 8 Budgeting, and Performance Management process.
9 The successful adoption of this process comprises 10 a fundamental change to the way we do business, which is 11 vital to ensuring our future success, but in the end, having 12 laid all of that out, the real future and insurance policy 13 is you.
14 Now within the context of vision and framework, 15 let me have you consider the real scope of programmatic 16 issues and regulatory processes that we have revised and/or 17 revitalized. It is an exhausting list.
lib And if you want an inch thick stack, I can send it l
19 around to you, but Tony will provide it on the net. J i
20 At the top of the list is the implementation of a 21 newly developed reactor oversight starting with the pilot I 22 program that we are just beginning. Now, consider how this 23 process is tied to the framework and elements of vision 24 already discussed. The elements of the new process clearly 25 are tied to cornerstones of safety. It is performance-based ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 11 1 'throughL the use.of performance indicators, and it is
- 2 risk-informed-through the implementation of a risk-informed 3- baseline inspection program, as well as in the 4 categorization and validation of. performance indicator 5 results.
15 In enforcement, our risk-informed programmatic 7 . review has led to a reduction of unnecessary licensee burden 8 ass.ociated'with the less important Severity Level 4 9 violations and a new direction for the enforcement program 10 which may assume a complimentary role, as opposed to a
.11 completely separate role in the reactor assessment process.
12 In our emphasis on understanding and maintaining 4
13 the design basis for power reactors and other nuclear 14 facilities, we are nearing the completion of.a revision to 15 10 CFR 50.59, the bread and butter rule, an effort that has 16 been accompanied by a wide range of improvements to NRC 17 . methods for dealing with facility design changes, temporary 18 . modifications and degraded equipment, including 19 modifications to-Generic Letter 91-18 and a refocus on and a l20 modification to our implementation of: 10 'CFR 50.71(e) .
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Now,.we have established also a power reactor 22 license renewal process that is-fair, focused, expedited and
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z23 predictable,-focused on safety and predictable, and it is
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24' built around about five key elements. First, a Commission 25- . policy statement, about its expectations for license ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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l 1 renewal. Secondly, case-specific orders on the conduct of.
~-2. adjudicatory proceedings. Third, Standard Review Plans for 3 -10 CFR Parts 54 and 51'. Fourth, management oversight 4' through a management steering committee, and through the
- 5. Executive Council. And,.fifth,. dedicated staff work led by
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c 6 Chris Grimes.
7 As a consequence of our success in this area, in
- 8. fact, we are anticipating an increase in the number of 9 license renewal applications above our original 10' expectations, 11 We have anticipated and dealt with a range of 12 issues related to economic deregulation, including 13 decommissioning funding assurance, grid reliability, cost 14 competitivene'ss-issues, and changes in nuclear power 15 industry business relationships, such as new ownership i
16 arrangements and configurations, increases in license 17 transfers and possible increases in decommissionings. We 18 .have modified our decommissioning funding rule and we will 19- continue to make improvements in it as we implement it.
20 We have a new rule, Subpart M, governing 21 adjudicatory proceedings for license transfers, and we have 22 participated on an inter-agency task force with the DOE and 23- FERC on grid reliability issues and on and on, and on and on 12 4 in'this whole electric utility industry restructuring set of 25 issues.
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S- 13 1 We have made comparable improvements in revisions 2 in our regulation on the uses of nuclear materials and 3 management of radioactive waste. For example, we used risk 4 insights and'information, risk information, to develop a 5 reasonable and widely accepted rule on radiological criteria 6 for license termination. And Commissioner McGaffigan will 7 tell you that we have done it all according to precisely-the 8 right and a very wide open process.
9 This progress is continuing today in our 10' development of implementing guidance for the license 11 termination rule, as well as in rulemakings we have underway 12 on medical uses of nuclear, materials, Part 35; high level 13 waste disposal at Yucca Mountain, Part 63; and nuclear fuel 14 cycle facilities, P'rt a 70.
15 We have applied business principles in 16 streamlining our licensing reviews for radioactive materials 17 and spent fuel storage, including materials 1 business process 18 reengineering and guidance consolidation.
19 We have demonstrated innovation and flexibility, 20 with paramount attention to safety in effectively overseeing 21 the privatization of the U.S. Enrichment Corporation. We
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22 even developed a Standard Review Plan to lay out ourselves, 23 and for the financial community,-our requirements as an 24 initial public offering was conducting. And we have 25 effectively conducted the pilot projects on external ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 14 1 regulation of U.S. Department of Energy facilities and 2 activities, where the staff's paper, with Commission 3 approval and guidance, is in fact about to go to the
' Congress.
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'In bhe international arena, we achieved a major
- 6. milestone when the U.S. Senate ratified the Convention on
'7 Nuclear-Safety. .This is something we had been working on 8 for.a number of years and represents the completion of a 9 long-term inter-agency effort in which NRC representatives 10 have played a significant part. I also personally am also 11 proud of the establishment and functioning of the 12 International Nuclear Regulators Association.
13 We achieved recognition earlier this year by 14- . achieving our Year 2000 readiness goals well ahead of 15 schedule. We also have contingency plans developed for 16 unforeseen difficulties both here at the NRC and with regard 17- 'to-our licensees.
- 18. Our improvements in the' procurement area resulted )
l 19 in:two Hammer Awards from the Vice President 20- W'e also have developed and are implementing ADAMS, 21 and though it has had some difficulties, we are developing a 1
22 new resource management system which is STARFIRE.
- 23. I would like to. reemphasize, in trying to close, 24 the. significance of all that we have accomplished. I
- 25. believe that all of you have been aware of and touched by
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S- 15 I 1 the rapid pace of change across a wide spectrum of NRC 2 functions. What you may be less aware of, depending upon 3 your position and area of specialty, is how positively 4 impressed our stakeholders have been, both with the rapidity 5 of the change and the consistent good judgment that has 6 characterized our decisions.
7 And let me just give you three or four quick I
8 examples. One of our strongest critics, who represents one 9 of the public interest groups, a nuclear watchdog group, has 10 been quite complimentary of our new reactor oversight 11' process, and that is coming even as we are getting kudos 12 from the nuclear industry.
13 I had occasion to speak recently with Senator 14 Domenici and he has been well pleased with the progress that 15 we are making, wants us to continue on that slope. I also 16 just mentioned that I met with the Chair of our House 17 Appropriations Subcommittee and got very positive messages 18 from him.
19 And so for an agency of this size, with our span 20 .of oversight and the complexity of our functions, to have 21 made this much progress on this many fronts in the amount of 22 time that'we have, and a lot of the focus has been the last 23 year, but in point of fact, you know, we have been working 24 this for a couple of years,.and to have made that progress 25 even over that period of time is truly remarkable, because ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 16 1 we know changes are not-wrought overnight. The achievement
.2 of vision and the fundamental framework that I have outlined 3 were developed over.several years, and it was because of the
'4 . groundwork that was laid in these changes, and the changes 5 to most NRC processes and programs over the past few years 6 that.were we able 'to make so much progress in the last year.
4 7 And an example that you might not expect me to use 8 .is the one having to do with business process reengineering 9 in the materials area, and the work that that has led to in
- 10. terms of developing consolidated guidance and in making sure 11 that we develop clear review plans for any new activity 12 which positioned us instantaneously to develop the Standard 13 Review Plan for USEC privatization. In fact, we had.it 14 ready so early.that we ended up having to wait for six 15 months to get the input from the Executive Branch in terms 16 of any issues that related to national security and the
- 17 like, But we were ahead of the curve, and that is the 18 point. And.we were ahead of the curve because of the kinds
. 19 of activities that went on well ahead of time.
20 But the short-term and longer-term achievements
' 21 clearly then are the result of hard work, innovative 22- thinking and a commitment to excellence on the.part of the 12 3 Commission, the NRC staff and NRC management. Whether 24 viewed individually or collectively, these achievements give 25 us all a glimpse of what we can accomplish together, even as ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 17 1 they set the stage for continued enhancements in our 2 regulation of nuclear. safety o'd safeguards.
3 This is but a thumbnail sketch, as I have said, of 4 all that we have done. We have come a long way since 5 Millstone, which became a major issue shortly after I 6 arrived. All of what has been done since then bears out 7 what I always have believed about the NRC, that the quality 8- and the dedication of its people are unsurpassed by any 9 organization either inside of or outside of the government, 10 anywhere. I have had the benefit of having major career 11 positions in industry, in academia and in government. And I 12 have never found a finer group of people anywhere.
13 So I thank you all for your support and 14 responsiveness to the Commission. Now, I would like to make 15 a few final points before I sign off and allow my colleagues 16 an opportunity to make a few remarks before we address your 17 questions.
18' One regards the Commission expectations on issues 19 that have come up recently.and, hopefully, to clarify or 20 . clear up'any ambiguity that may exist. I have been told 21 that there has been some question on NRC staff papers. When 22 papers are submitted to the Commission on technical and 23 policy issues, the correct staff approach is not to divine 24 what you think the Commission wants to hear and tailor it.
25 Now, the Commission will give clear guidance when it wants ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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'1 to do that,fbut we do encourage you and expect you to l 1
2 provide us with.your best professional judgment based on l<
3 your technical expertise and your best policy insight. We 4' need you and'we need that input from you even as we provide
- 5. guidance to you.
.,6 .Similarly, in your interactions with stakeholder 7 on' technical and policy issues, we do not expect that you 8- approach those. interactions in a vacuum, as a blank tablet.
sf We. expect you to, of course, have your homework ahead of 10 time'to even formulate strawmen or clear positions-and 11 strategies relative to the topic at hand, what you think is 12 fundamental.for us as regulators, because that lends focus 13 and coherence to those stakeholder interactions.
-14 And that is not to say that you go in with a 15 . closed mind,.but that you begin with a-fundamental set of 16 premises that relate to what you believe is important to our 17 public health and safety mission. And so as we urge you to 18 ' interact with stakeholders, we are not urging you to do'that 19 and take away what you believe is fundamental ~from the point
.20 of view of what you know to be important to public health 21- and safety, and I don't think that that is a message the 22 Commission wants to send.
23 And let me close by answering upfront.what I know 24 to be the-pregnant question of the day. Two-and-a-half 25- weeks--from now I am leaving, as you know, to become ANN RILEY'& ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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3 S- 19 1 President of Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, so the 2 question that has arisen is -- well, who is going to be the 3 next Chairman? And the answer is this, I have been in touch 4 with the White, House, .they are in fact still working on 5 developing a nomination for my seat and that person would.be 6 the next Chairman of the NRC. But then that means -- but 7 that nomination has not been made, but I am in fact 8 authorized to-tell you that they will be naming an interim 9 Chairman and that interim Chairman is Commissioner Greta I 10 Dicus. And so I both offer her my congratulations and my 11 condolences. '
12 [ Applause.] .
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13 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: So, in fact, I think it'is only 14 appropriate for us to begin and see if Commissioner Dicus 1-5 has any comments she wishes to make.
16 COMMISSIONER DICUS: Just a few. Just a few 17 comments that I want to make. And mine, I don't have a 18 prepared talk, mine are simply off the cuff, as I think 19 Commissioner McGaffigan's, Commissioner Merrifield's will be -
R0 as well. But I want to follow up on a couple of things that 21 Chairmal: Jackson said regarding the staff, regarding the 22 work that has been accomplished here. It has clea'rly been a 23 very busy year. When you-go through change, there are a lot I 24 of' uncertainties. The staff has simply done a fantastic job 25 of dealing with these things and coming to a path forward to ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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'1: put the NRC in the position that we are in today, and which
- 2 is so'much better than'it has been in the past..
3 And, clearly,.we are going to go forward in the i
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4 next year. There will' continue to'be change. We have a l 5 course that has been charted under Chairman Jackson's t'
6 excellent leadership to take us-into the-future, into the 7 next millennium, to be where we need to be to ensure the 8 public; health and' safety and protection of the environment 4 9 that we are to do.
10 But it doesn't surprise me that we have done a 11 good job in the past year and that we will continue to do a 12 good job because of the exce.llent staff that is here at the 13 NRC. You are a fantastic bunch of professionals. I have 14 had the opportunity in the work that I have done in the 15 past, particularly being head of a state Radiation Control 16 Program, to deal with a number of federal agencies, a number 17- of organizations for a very long period of time. And,-of 18 course, obviously, one of those was the NRC, and I have
- 19. dealt with the-NRC quite a bit, and of all the ones, the 20 organizations that I dealt with, all the agencies that'I 21' dealt with,.the NRC was by. fire the best, had the best 22 people to work with, had.the most professional staff and 23 really were'the easiest ones to work with.
24- I know being an Agreement State, and there were 25 times that we disagreed quite a bit, but we still -- it was ANN RILEY'& ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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^ I' S- 21 1 the agency that I had the greatest respect for. So when I \
2 had the opportunity to come here as a Commissioner, it was a 3 wonderful thing to happen to me. And I have enjoyed by stay 4 here. I am happy to be with a second term. But I really 5 appreciate, as does the entire Commission, all the hard work I
. 6 that you have done. You are the reason that we have been so 7 successful and we all thank you very, very much.
8 [ Applause.)
9 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Commissioner McGaffigan?
10 COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: Chairman Jackson at the 11 end this morning commented that we sounded .like broken 12 records, so you will have to forgive us if we sound that way 13 again this afternoon.
14 I second everything that Chairman Jackson and 15 Commissioner Dicus have said. We are very proud of what has 16 been accomplished since last September. When we met here J l
17 last September we were under a bit of a cloud. We had had 18 the very strong report language. We had had our first 19 stakeholder meeting. We had a tasking memo that set very
. 4 20 ambitious agendas for action by January, when we expected a 21 hearing and then going forward into the future -- and I 22 think you have exceeded our expectations in many, many 23 areas. The list'of accomplishments that Chairman Jackson rattled off could be easily lengthened this year, as she l 24 25 herself'said, and I have some here, but I won't bore you ,
I I
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S- 22 1 with the list.
2 You know what you have done and you know how much 3 'you have accomplished, but there is no end to change. Once 4 you are committed to making yourself the best agency of 5 Government, which we are making a very good effort at, you 6 then try to become the best organization on the face of the 7 earth, and maybe that's what our goal is.
8 There's a lot of places where we can still 9 improve. There's a lot of rules that we can still 10- propagate. There's a lot of changes in our processes that 11 we can still accomplish, but we have a very good foundation,
~
12 as Chairman Jackson said, on which to build that progress, 13 and we are going to have to keep reinventing ourselves as we 14 go forward.
15 One area that I would like to emphasize, and I 16 think it is really a profound change, and the Chairman has 17 referred to it, is the degree of proactive engagement that 18 we now carry out with,our stakeholders, not just the 19 industry but with Mr. Lochbaum, whom the Chairman. mentioned, 20 Paul Gunter with the Nuclear Information and Resources 21 Service, who was at a Y2K meeting here this morning, with
- 22. the states, not.just Agreement States -- the West Valley 23 Project, West Valley demonstration project, setting the 24 decommissioning standard there. We went through a public 25 process I am very proud of and I think that proactive ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 23 1 engagement empowers you all, as the Chairman was talking 2 about, to bring back to us the views of all the 3 stakeholders.
4 We will guarantee, I think in engaging more 5 stakeholders we will guarantee that we will not agree with 6 everyone because there will be a diversity of views that we 7 will get, and ultimately we have to make choices, but public 8 confidence, this goal that we talk about as one of the four 9 fundamental goals or five, depending on whether you talk to 10 Research or NRR, the public confidence goal is not so much 11 that we are going to get so many percentage of people 12 agreeing with the decision, it's that the process whereby we '
13 reach the decision was a good process.
14' Mr. Lochbaum disagreed with us on the Millstone 15 III restart decision we made last year but complimented us 16 on the process whereby we reached that decision, the public 17 meetings both Mr. Travers had locally and then the 18 Commission had here in Washington. So let's stay the i
19 course. Let's continue our proactive engagement. Let's 20 continue. to build our list of accomplishmerits. Let's market j 21 3 ourselves. We did get complimented by the Appropriations 22 Committee for our monthly reports. We can only market i'
23 ourselves if we have accomplishments and I think we will 24 continue to have a vast number of accomplishments as I look 25 ahead to the next All Hands Meeting. I ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 24 1 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Commissioner Merrifield?
- 2 COMMISSIONER MERRIFIELD: Thank you, Chairman. I 3- .would like to. concur with the comments made by the Chairman 4 and my' fellow Commissioners this afternoon and make a few 5 '. additional comments in this regard.
6 The first one would be regarding the Chairman. We 7 are at-the point now where we are-beginning the end of her 8 reign and as we look at that I think there are a couple of 9 litmus tests that one must use to determine the success of 10 an individual who has managed an agency such as this.
11 The first one is is the agency in a better 12 position than it was when that manager first came on board, 13 and secondly, has that manager, that Chairperson, put the 14 agency in a position that it will continue to improve after 15 .he or she has left.
16 In that regard I think the Chairman has really met
'17 and exceeded both of those litmus tests, and although we 18- will have certainly a number of other opportunities to wish 19 her well in the next few weeks, certainly I would like to 20- give her my thanks again for what I think is a job well 21 ~done.
- 22. [ Applause.)
23 COMMISSIONER MERRIFIELD: The second one I would
-24 like to talk about is the Staff. Now I know the other 25 Commissioners have made some mention of that as well. I'll l
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IE S- 25 1 put in my own two cents.
2 Having been here eight months now and having 3 gotten a lot of help from a lot of people in terms of
- 4. getting up to speed, I want to share with you some brief 5 thoughts of my own, given where I have come from.
6 As many of you know, I spent on and off about 12 7 years up in the United States Senate, working on issues 8 associated with energy and environment. In that position, 9 most notably I worked with the Senate Environment and Public 10 Works Committee, which as you all know is the oversight 11 committee for the NRC.
12 There within the committee I think there's a 13 recognition among the staff and among the Senators that the 14 NRC is known as an agency that has a very highly qualified, 15 competent, technically capable Staff. Until I came on 16 board, until I had the opportunity to interview probably 50 17 or 60 people here as well as literally hundreds of other 18 individuals that:I have met.since I have been here as a 19 Commissioner, I have to say the one impression,that I have 20 is not just that we are a technically competent and ,
21 highly-skilled and successful agency, but that level of
-22 competence and skill and dedication runs throughout the 23 agency. It is consistent and virtually everyone that I have 24 met in the time that I have been here I have been very 25 highly impressed with and obviously it's resulting in the ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 26 1 kind of-achievement that we have made over the course of the
- 2- last year to year and a' half.
31 The last' comment I would want-to make is really to 4 again comment about where we have been and where we are now,
-5 'and I.think1for me, being a former Congressional staffer, I 6 :would use the two significant Senate Environment = committee 7- hearings that we have had in the course'of the last year.
- 8 , The first one was last July. I was still a Senate -
9 staffer at'that point eagerly hoping to be cont.rmed as a 10 Commissioner, and that was obviously a very difficult 11 hearing for this Commission.' A number of very pointed 12 questions were asked of the. Chairman.and the other 13 Commissioners, a lot of doubt about where the agency was and l14 where it was going. The tone was certainly -- was not a 15 positive one 16 In contrast, the hearing that the Commissioners
- 17 and the Chairman and I participated in in front of the 18' Environment committee just a few' months ago was notably
- 19. different, .It was very positive. There was a lot of very 20' good comments made from the Senators who were present, 21 talking about.the level of achievement that we have made and 22 showing great confidence in our ability to move forward.
23 Using those two hearings as a litmus test for 24 where we are as an agency clearly demonstrates that not only
~ 25' 'do we' ourselves feel that we are doing a good job, but
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S- 27 1 ultimately Congress, the individuals who give us the money, 2 and.give us the tools we need to get our job done feel that 3 as well, so I think that again is a good accomplishment.
4 It's an accomplishment'not of the Commission but it is an 5' accomplishment of the Staff, and so I would like to give you 6 all a hand --
7 [ Applause.]
8 COMMISSIONER MERRIFIELD: Thank you very much.
9 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Thank you and thank you for 10 those kind remarks, Commissioner Merrifield.
11 Now we begin the main part of what we are here 12 for, and that is to address questions and concerns that any 13 of you may have.
14 This morning we got essentially -- was it one or 15 two questions from the tent, so I then asked that we pass.
16 out the index cards so that if there are any questions that 17' you might have that you may not want to stand right up and 18 pose that you might write them down and give them to one of 19 the ushers, but of course, as Mrs. Norry said, we would urge 20 you to s'tep right up and ask us what is on your mind, so let 21- me begin.
22 Is there a question.from the tent? Please --
23 VOICE: Can you hear me? !
24 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Yes.
25 VOICE: Okay. I have a question basically for ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 28 l' ' Commissioner McGaffigan.
2 In the Part 70'website'that I was the website 3' manager for, I made an effort to contact a number of varied 4 stakeholders including some worker unions, some professional 5 organi'zations, and others that I thought might have an
., 6 interest, 7 I did not receive any comments from most of those, t
8 -I think I.only -- allLof the comments were from the industry 9 and'maybe one from ANS, but it'seemed like a rather 10 haphazard,.ad hoc approach that I took. I mean I did it all 11 on my own without any particular guidance as to what
- 12. organizations should be included in that list.
13' '
Is there any effort being made to organize 14 -something like that?
15 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: .In point of fact, I had a 16 discussion this morning with the EDO and in the phase before 17 ADAMS is. fully implemented, in fact the Staff is working on 18' a coherent approach to packaging agency preliminary 19 documents and positions for placement on the' website, and as 20 part of that looking at how we can' ensure the greatest 21 access or notification to all of our stakeholders, but as
.22 .you I think are getting at, a more consistent and coherent 23 way, and so if you have any particular suggestions or 24 lessons learned from your experience, I think it would be 25-very, very helpful to provide some direct input, either to ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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t S- 29 the EDO, because he has responsibility for getting this 1
2 l interim process underway, or to the Commission as a whole.
3 This is not to stop Commissioner McGaffigan from 4
answering you question but in point of fact that 5 responsibility is one that the EDO has underway as we speak.
6 COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: Let me answer slightly 7 differently, 8- , First of all, I want to compliment you for what
- 9. you did. I think that you did a great job. It was ad hoc.
10 Equal access, as the Chairman talks about, doesn't 11 necessarily result in equal involvement, but I think we need 12 to seek the access so that nobody: feels that they were not 13 part of the process who wanted to be, 14 There are some obvious groups. When Mr. Gunter 15 and NIRS were testifying earlier this year, we invited them, 16 the Commission did, at the Commission briefing to give us 17 the list of issues that they wanted to be kept abreast of as 18 meetings came up.
19 I think Mr. Lochbaum is -- they both monitor our
- 20. website. I know from having talked to Mr. Gunter yesterday, 21 'lus monitors our website for upcoming meetings, plus I think
'22 that it is totally appropriate I believe in your case when 23 at least people whom you knew were aware of interest, you l 24 would send an e-mail'when a change happened on the Part 70 25 site'to say there's'a change _out there, you may want to look I
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. 1 S- 30 1 at it.
2 So I think you did a lot of good things and if you 3 have, as the Chairman said, if you have recommendations how 4 to de it better I think we would maybe want to routinely 5 solicit from the NIRS and NRDCs and Nuclear Control 6 Institutes and the Union of Concerned Scientists, those sort 7 of interest groups, what their list of issues is so that 8 people like you are aware and then individual members of the 9 public -- there's only so much we can do.
10 There's press releases, there's making sure our 11 web page is there to be utilized, and as the Chairman said, 12 we would be open to other ideas, but I think you personally 13 and the group of people who worked on the Part 70 rulemaking 14 invented a lot of good stuff the last several months that we 15 need to build on.
16 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Thank you. You should know, 17 and I also congratulate you and thank you, but you should 18 know that as the new approach.to posting agency papers and 19 positions on the website is implemented a key component of 20 it in terms of equal access is not getting certain groups in 21 the queue before other groups are in the queue, and so a key 22 part cf this is that accessing the website through what is 23 new is going to be the mechanism and not that others get the 24 jump on what we are putting out there, because some things 25 go into the PDR while other people can come and pick things ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 31 1
up that in point of fact it's going to go out and everyone 2 will have the equal electronic access, and that will be the 3 fundamental mechanism.
l 4 Is there another question?
Maybe we will' hear one 5 from the region?
6 MR. POOL: Yes, Chairman Jackson.
This question 7 is from Region IV.
8 What initiatives does the Commission foresee as 9 being necessary to increase the public's participation as an 10 active stakeholder? (
11 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: I think that -- and I will 1L2 invite my colleagues to comment -- I think that some of our 13 answer to the previous question is part of that.
14 I think we have the opportunity with electronic
?
15 media, with information technology, to make greater use of 16- that to have that as part of the way we in fact do i 17 rulemakings. We had quite a discussion at the Part 70 18 Commission meeting yesterday about putting out preliminary 19 versions of papers or positions, and the Commission almost 20 routinely now puts out Staff papers for -- puts them out 21 into the public domain -- even as the Commission is thinking 22 about it and mulling the paper or the issue and how it may 23 in fact vote on it, so that everybody essentially has what 24 we have when we have it.
25 I think that we need to redouble our efforts to ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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s S- 32 1 reach out to groups that historically may have felt excluded r 2' and/or have not had the kind.of access.and accessibility to 3 what NRC is doing, and a lot of that has to come from those 4 of you who'are involved and know who some of the key 5 stakeholders are in the various arenas. - -
6= I think that the Commission itself plans to 7 continue the stakeholder meeting process that we have with 8 some periodicity. We are encouraging and even directing 9 .that the staff continue to have discussion of its work in 10 public workshops and, generally, remaining open to and being 11 proactive with respect'to just holding meetings with the 12 public to hear what the public has to say, what their 13 concerns are, and not always doing it reactively, although, 14 of course, the attendance at such meetings typically is 15 driven in a reactive sense, but not necessarily to wait for 16 -there to be a crisis because we meet with the public.
17 But, in fact, particularly as we launch new
- 18. initiatives, and we h, ave done.some of this with the li' cense 19 renewal process, as we. roll out and begin these pilots on 20 the new reactor oversight process, you know, we are having 21H ~public meetings. We know people would have concerns, not 22 waiting until there is a hiccough or something has happened, 23 but to do that more comprehensively.
24 Commission Dicus, I don't know if you --
25 COMMISSIONER DICUS: Yes, I want to add a couple ANN RILLi & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 33 1 of comments to that.
2 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Is it on?
3 COMMISSIONE'R DICUS. It should be on now. I think 4 it activates -- is voice activated. Anyway, one of the 5 things it is important to do as issues surface in various 6 parts of the country and are going to impact a certain area, 7 or whatever, is, as carefully as we possibly can, identify 8 all the groups that we might impact, that might be 9- interested. Now, some of those groups aren't the least bit 10 shy about letting us know that.they want to be involved in 11 the process, but.sometimes we may in some way or the other l'2 overlook a grcup and that -- I think we need to carefully 13 look at how we put out our information so that we do throw a 14, wide enough net to get the people who really want to be 15 involved in the process.
16 About a month ago, a little more I guess it was 17 now, I went to visit Yucca Mountain, having not been there, 18 at least inside the mountain. But I also spent a day 19 meeting with state and local officials, public interest 20 groups, two groups of Native Americans. We~really, you 21 know, let it be known I was coming, that I was willing to
. 22- meet with anyone who wanted to meet with me, either as a 23 group or individually. And we started at 8:30 in the 24 morning and went to 5:30 in the afternoon. There was a l i
25 great deal of_ interest.
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r1 S- 34 1 One of the things, a lot of the things I learned 2 about that meeting,- I have passed them on. Those of you, of
'3 course,- quite.a few of you went out with us. But one of the l
4 things that was interesting to me, even though we had 5 meetingslin Nevada and in the Las Vegas area, and even 6 though there had been a lot of material put out, I was 7 surprised at.the number of groups and-individuals who 8 weren't quite clear on how they could be part of the 9 process, 'even if they wanted to be part of the process to 11 0 try to'stop the process, they still weren't quite clear on 11 exactly how can I have the most impact and how can my voice 12 really be heard. So we tried to clear up some of those 13 things.
14 But I think that is part of what, as we get more 15 mature in doing this, be sure that we make our information 16 clear enough that not only are we identifying the people and 17 .they know who we are and why we are there, we weren't making
-18 -that clear either in this particular case, but make it clear 19 how you1can truly be a part of the process and how you go 20 , about doing that.
21 COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: I think in the previous 22 question I gave most'of my answer. One of the issues you 23 always come up with is, who is the public? And that is 24 .actually a fairly profound issue. In England, or the United 25- Kingdom recently., they randomly chose, I believe, 10 or 15 ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 35 members of the public to help them think about high level 1
2 waste repositories and what. should be done in Britain with 3 regard to high level waste. And that may be -- I mean 4 randomly choosing through some sort of survey and actually 5 getting 15 people to serve may be the best way if you want 6 to get a random public view.
7 It was an educated public view because they spent 8 a couple of days or more educating the group, what the real 9 options were. Various interest groups had a chance to make 10 a presentation, along with governmental agencies, et cetera.
11 I don't advocate that, but it raises the issue --
12 who is the public? In conversation with Mal Knapp earlier 13 this year I said, well, the public for oversight purposes, 14 the new oversight process, might well be the editorial 15 boards of the newspapers near the reactor sights, because 16 that is how most of the public is going to get their 17 information. So making a concerted effort, as I think we 18 used to do in the SALP process, the people who would~come to 19 SALP meetings would be reporters, but making sure those 20 people understand what the new process is about may be the .
21 public.
22 But the public ultimately that we. deal with is the 23 public who, given all the access we are going to give them, 24 chooses to engage. And then the rest of the public, I think 25 they pay us the big bucks up here on the podium to try to ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 36
-1 . discern what good public-policy is, irrespective of whether 2 the vote is 90 to 10 in' favor of doing X. The 10 3 occasionally is.right.and, you know, occasionally, both you 4 .all;as the staff stand with the 10, and occasionally we 5 stand with the 10, if it is the right thing to do.
6 COMMISSIONER MERRIFIELD: I only -- there are two 7 very brief comments I would make. You know, we have had I 8 think:a very good stakeholder meeting process, periodically
- 9. meeting with stakeholders.- Those meetings have for the most fl0 part focused'on a lot of the reactor issues. I think among
- 11. ourselves we have discussed the notion of trying to broaden 12 that to.some of the materials issues and bringing a 13 different group of stakeholders and get some input in terms 14 of where are going with those areas. So that is one 15 comment.
16 The other comment I would make in response to the
-17 questions, you know, I think the whole plain English 18 -initiative that we have in the way of the. agency, to make 19 sure that our regulations, our rules, our guidance 20 documents, and the way that we speak to the public is done 21 in a manner which is understandable to the public. It is 22 all too easy for all of us to start speaking in jargon or 23 using acronyms. That makes it very difficult for the public 24 to have~ access to-what we are trying to say. So it is 25- . incumbent on us to try to present ourselves, whether it is ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 37 l' in written form or in spoken form, in a manner that is 2 ~ accessible to the general public so that they, too, can 3 participate in our process.
4 1 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: The gentleman here.
, Thank you.
5 MR. COLLINS: I am David Collins-from Region II.
6 Commissioner Merrifield has just exposed all of my comments 17 to bright sunlight, sort of. My question had been, where do 8 we stand, and'how-fast are we reaching towards plain 9 English? We have been putting out. rules,. regulations, 10 guidance documents like you wouldn't believe in jargon that 11- is tied up with the nuclear industry, with the medical 1:0 industry,.the materials world, the technical world. The 13 average person across the street doesn't know what.it means, 14 doesn't have the foggiest idea of how to get hold of it and 15 'doesn't know -- doesn't even know who to ask to get to it.
16 I am a materials person, I have gotten questions 17 in Region II from reactor folks,. I have gotten questions
. 18 !from newspapers saying, what does this mean? And usually it 19
~
takes anywhere from.10 to 15 minutes to explain what-it'took 2,0 and whylit took so long to get there. If.can trickle down-
~
. 21 to the staff and: reinforce that, I think we are going to be 22- a lot better~off.
s 23' CHAIRMAN JACKSON: No , I applaud you for bringing-24' that issue'up yourself and reemphasizing it. You know, we 25 had a.recent experience where some of our staff went down to ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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r-S- 38 1 brief some Congressional -- some members of the '
2 Congressional staff, and at a certain level the presentation 3 was well organized and well presented, but these staffers 4 came away not really understanding where they thought we 5 were going with our new oversight process.
6 Now, sometimes it can be that people don't 7- necessarily like the change, but it also raises the point .
8 that you raise about ensuring that we remove the jargon as 9 much as we can and the insider talk. But I think the plain 10 language initiative, coupled with the overall communications 11 initiative that is underway allow us an opportunity to 12 address these concerns, but it will only work if we keep 13 this at the forefront of our minds. And the EDO has it at 14 the forefront of his mind, I know, because we talk about it 15 all the time.
16 We can't argue that everything has been fully
.17 implemented or rolled out, but it will be. And you may not l'8 recall, but when Dr. Travers was the Deputy EDO, one of the 19 key items in his portfolio as the Deputy Executive Director 20 for Regulatory Effectiveness was communications, and so he i
21 has that at the forefront of his mind.
I 22 Another question from the Region? i 23 MR. ADAMS: Chairman Jackson, I have a question ,
i 24 from a regional staff member that reads, "I understand that 1 1
25 NRC has been given authority for the $25,000 buyout. Is l
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-1 there any consideration being given to using this incentive 2 for lower grade level employees?"
3 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: We have the buyout authority, 4 we have no plans at the present time to use buyouts at this 5 stage of the game.
6 COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: Madame Chairman, could I 7 just add? There is an implication in the question, last 8 year we used the buyout authority primarily to achieve the 8 9 to 1 employee to manager' ratio because part of the buyout 10 authority is that you are not supposed to replace the people 11 once they have utilized the buyout. It is not a tool that 12 you can use to downsize your work force and then upsize it 13 just a little bit later. And I think the FTE situation is 14 such that we don't need to use it at the lower levels, but 15 it was actually a very useful tool last year, combined with 16 early-out authority to honorably achieve the 8 to i ratio 17 without being unduly disruptive. And that was the main 18 motivation, that is whatiour report to the Congress'and to 19 the Office of Personnel' Management highlighted. If I am -- 3 20 I am looking at that in order to make sure I am right here.
21 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: That's true, since I had to
)
.22 re-sign those reports to Congress.
23' Are there -- is there another question from here?
24 MR. HECK: Good afternoon. This is a question 25 from the audience that reads, "Looking back over your tenure ANN RILEY.& ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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I S- 40 j 1 as Chairman, if you had the opportunity to change anything, 2 what would it be?"
3 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Probably what I would change is 4 to be more interactive at an earlier stage with more of the 5 staff, to try.to have people understand a little more what 6 some of my motivations were in asking the staff to do 7 certain things.
8 Then I'd say the second thing is at the Commission 9 level there is always an opportunity at the Commission level 10 .to foster more collegiality. I think we've all come a long 11 way down the pike in that regard. But I think the Chairman 12 has a particular role with the Commission format to work 13 very specifically on that.
14 An6ther question from the regions.
15 MS. ADAMS: Chairman Jackson, the last regional 16 question I have is from Region IV. What is the status of-17 congressional oversight activities regarding the NRC?
18 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Well, the status, in a certain 19 sense we kind of alluded to it earlier when Commissioner 20 Merrifield talked about our last oversight hearing. The 21 tone was quite different. There is a plan to have another 22 oversight hearing with our Senate subcommittee in September, 23 roughly six months or- so from our last one, which was 24 February 4, not from the point of view that there remains 25 the high level of criticism that we faced last summer, but ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 41 1 rather as regular oversight and followup.
2 As far as overall in the Congress, I have had 3~ occasion over the last couple of months to meet with the 4 chairman of each.of our key subcommittees, both on the 5 appropriations side and the authorization side, and again 6 there are no particular criticisms anybody brings up. In 7 fact, we're getting kudos relative to all that we've 8 accomplished, and if anything, we're just being encouraged 9 to continue along the line. But people are quite well 10 pleased with what we've done.
11 k But we can't let up or fall back to the past. So 12 there's nothing that, you ,know, I see on the horizon that 13 looks like a dark cloud. We just have to remain vigilant in 14 what we're doing.
15 COMMISSIONER MERRIFIELD: Chairman, if I could 16 make a comment, I think at least on the Senate side, Senator 17 Inhofe has indicated a desire to continue having those 18 hearings on a periodic basis, so we very well may be as a 19 Commission going up ,and appearing before the Senace 20 Environment Committee every six months or so. I think the 21 period that this agency had in which it did not appear 22 before the House and Senate was not a good thing.
23 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: That's right.
24 COMMISSIONER MERRIFIELD: The message of the
- 25. Agency and how well it was doing was being dictated by ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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l S- 42
-11 others, not being espoused by us, and so I think we should 2 'welcome -- we as a Commission should welcome every 3 opportunity to go.up and meet with the Members of Congress, 4 to meet before these congressional committees and explain to 5 ' them the missions being accomplished by the people in this
'6 Agency,.because I think'we've got a good record to tell.
7 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: We've had -- and this was true 8~ when I came -- we've had a kind of a tendency to have the 9 ' kind of " keep'our heads down" point of view, but as somebody 10 tells me, if your head's down, something else is exposed.,
11 (Laughter.)
i 12 And so the point is like,.you know, no 13 communication is good communication. But I think 14 ' Commissioner Merrifield is absolutely right, that that is 15 not a good thing, particularly with changing expectations on 16 the part of Congress, of Government agencies, changing 17 ' expectations on the part of the public and the White House 18 'of what is expected of government agencies. And then if we l'9 aren't telling our story, believe me, somebody else will 20- step into the vacuum and tell it the way they want to tell 21' it.
22 So these. reports that we provide monthly to 23 ' Congress having regularized oversight redounds to our 24 benefit because it allows us to tell the story, it's coming 25 from the horse's mouth, so to speak, and if there are ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 43 l' concerns, we can hear about them and understand them early 2 on, both not only from the hearings themselves, but in the 3 regularized interaction with congressional staff.
4 That's something we also have been much more 5 aggressive about, is the regularization and not even 6 regularized, just deciding we need to do it,.as well as 7 being more responsive to requests for briefings and the 8 like, because the more we keep our issues onto the table, l 1
l 9 the better understanding there is on all sides. .
10 The main point I wanted to make was that we do i l
11 expect to keep having the authorization or the oversight I 12 hearings, but not on the basis that there is a crisis, but 13 rather as part of normal congressional oversight, which is 14 beneficial'.
15 .
Yes.
16- COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: If I might just -- I'll 17 end up echoing Commissioner Merrifield as a former 18 congressional staffer -- the first thing I wrote down when I 19 heard the question is Congress is an opportunity, and we've !
.20 heard that, but we have a meatier legislative package than ;
1 21 we have had in the past currently before the Congress that i 22 deals with several important issues. We may well have 23 additions to it.
24 We're going to have a meeting'in a couple days l 250 with regard to Part'40, and I b'lievee both the staff and ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 44 1- some staffers who have filed a differing professional
- 2 opinion are in agreement that we should get some legislative 3 clarification. There are some issues with regard to the 4 hearing process that we may add to our package on, et 5 cetera. But it'is a meatier process, and I think it's a way 6 of thinking that we need to adopt here.
5
.7 The Congress can help us' solve problems. If we've 8 been always.doing something a certain way because some 9 Senator, Senator X or Congressman Y back in 1970 or '74 or 10 '63 had an inartful staffer -- not me or Jeff -- who drafted 11 .something not quite precisely, and we've been living with it 12 for 30 years and trying to do the best we can to divine what 13- the. heck the guy had in mind, we can fix it. And we ne'ed to 14 think about'the Congress, especially if we can get an 15 authorization bill passed in this Congress, as a place where '
16 once we've done that, I think we'll have proven that we can 17 solve a few problems and move on and maybe solve a few more.
l 18 Congress is an opportunity, is the big thought I
-19 want to get across.
20 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: I happened to meet with a j 21 couple of Senators recently, and they made the point, you
.22 know, we've been talking in terms of oversight hearings, but .
j
.23 ~ 'as you may have noted, when I talked about oversight and 24 interactions with the Congress, I also talked about at the i
'25 staff level, and I think we've become more aggressive and i
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4 S- 45 !
'1 assertive with respect to interacting with congressional 2- - staff at the staff-level. And I don't want you to minimize 3 the importance of that. I think that is an opportunity, 4 because as these particular Senators said, you know, many 5' people think'of the congressional staff as the gatekeepers, 6 and at least these two Senators said they are the gates.
7 (Laughter.)
8 MR. HALL: Chairman Jackson, this question is for
- 9. you. After five years as Chairman of the NRC, what does the 10 ,
term " adequate protection to public health and safety" mean 11 to you?
12 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Well, it means simply that we 13 carry out our job so as not to have undue risk for the 14' public, that we do have safety goals that relate to how that-15 . translates into overall guidance for how we carry out our.
16- programs, and that we have an ability to use risk 17 ' assessments and risk insights to help us flesh out where the 18 risks are the greatest and where the relative risks are, and 19 we structure our programs accordingly.
^
20 That's my answer.
21 MR. HALL: I'm sorry, that wasn't my question.
22 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: You asked me what adequate 23 protection means.
24 MR. IDALL: Right. I meant I was just bringing the
-25 question to the microphone.
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'n '
S- 46 L1 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: ooh , that wasn't your question.
2 COMMISSIGNER McGAFFIGAN: He was just bringing up 3 the card.
4- CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Oh, all right, so now yod have 9
5 your question.
. 6, MR. HALL: No, I've got one more question that was
- 7. ' submitted.- I'm just the messenger.
8 [ Laughter.].
9 The next question is the total life-cycle cost of Il0 ' ADAMS.
- 11. CHAIRMAN JACKSON: I'd have to ask Mr. Galante tb 12 ' speak to that issue. Maybe you can go to the microphone.
13 MR._GALANTE: Can you hear me? There we go.
14 The actual development cost of ADAMS is a little 15 over $13 million, and to maintain ADAMS on an annual basis 16 is going to run somewhere about $2-1/2 million. This is 17 'less I guess than what we are paying today only because 18 -we're able to eliminate a lot of costs as a result of_ ADAMS, 19' I'm looking at at the moment a payback for t'at h little over 20 $13 million over a 4-1/2 to 5-year time frame.
'21 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: But you should understand that 22 1there is an actual law that guides what the CIO does, which 23 is the IMTRA, the Information Management Technology Reform 24 Act of 1996, and it has built into it a requirement that as 25 an agency looks to procure and deploy technology, that it ANN'RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 47 1 has to do someLup-front planning and analysis to look at how 2 best to procure it, but also look at its own processes,
, 3 internal processes, looking for efficiencits and 4 optimization opportunities, and that is what Mr. Galante has 5 'been implementing on a regular basis. And I believe as we 6_ go forward, we're going to capture more savings. But I 7 think those are the existing numbers today.
8 But every week when I meet with Mr. Galante, he 9 always has something new where we've been able to capture 10 more savings. In fact, I've asked him to put it all 11- together into a cumulative package for us.
12 Yes. .
13 VOICE: The risk-informed process has been' 14 embraced by the nuclear industry in part because it removes
.15 what the industry sees as unnecessary burdens, even 16 sometimes will allow it if there's a small increase in 17 potential risk associated with the change. However, what
- 18. happens if NRC finds a risk-informed insight that would 19 fpotentially increase the burden to a utility, then they 2,0 would like a backfit analysis in order to apply that 21 particular effort that they have to do, because they feel 22- 'that risk insights that cause them more burden require 23 backfit.
24- So my question is, is the backfit threshold too 25 high in light of our going to a risk-informed process, and, ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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1 S- 48 l' ' secondly, how can we assure _that= safety insights can be
- 2 Limplemented, not just-removed?
- 3. CHAIRMAN JACKSON: I think that's a good question, 4' and I think_it's something that we at the Commission level 5: are grappling with. In fact, I'm going to let him speak'in 6 a minute, Commissioner McGaffigan has raised that issue in
- 7 terms of what we may find as beneficial but not particularly 8- costly but there's some element of cost, but we can get some 9 safety gain.
10 My position certainly is that the chips have to 11 fall where they may and that you don't walk down one side of
'12 the street with risk-informed regulation. And the point has 13 to be made, and it has to be reinforced by the Commission, 14 that if we find opportunities for " unnecessary. burden 15 reduction" we will allow licensees to take advantage of that 16 if the use of, you know, a risk-informed approach leads us
,17 to-that. On the other hand, if that same approach uncovers i8 an area where there is real risk that we heretofore had not
, 11 9 been fully awaresof or.taken into account, then we have to 20 deal with that and they have to deal with that.
21 I think we do have to look at the application of the backfit 22 rule.within that context and not have it thrown up as a 23 basis never to have us be able to have both edges of the 24' two-edged sword of risk-informed regulation.
25 Commissioner.
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S- 49 1 COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: Well,-the easy answer'to 2 your question is that you're about to grapple with it 3 because we're punting back to you as a result of the SRM on 4 98-300. In that paper you all suggested, the staff
. 5 suggested, the EDO on behalf of the staff suggested that we 6 needed to get some guidance as to how someone who comes in 7 and asks for a license-amendment and using deterministic 8 analysis and-we have a risk insight that would push them 9 into severe accident space and how that transition would be 10 done.
11 There is some draft paper in NRR,that talks about 12 the burden of proof being on the staff or whatever. I think 13 all of that has to now be discussed in a public process, and 14 I think the backfit issue that you raise is an interesting 15 one. I've said in other contexts, I think this is what the 16 Chairman is referring to, that the substantial-benefit test 17 is a high test. I firmly support cost-beneficial tests, and 18 I think that's built into the backfit rule. But the 19 substantial-benefit test'at times does get in the way of 20 doing something that makes a lot of sense, doesn't cost 21 much, but maybe doesn't reach whatever substantial benefit 22 means.
23' I notice that we have before us at the moment a 24 paper on fitness for duty where I believe it's something on 25 the order of 36 exemptions to backfit are being suggested as ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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I S- 50 1 worthwhile changes'bec&use they're consistent with HHS l'
2 guidance, because they're consistent with industry practice, 3 because of whatever. And so the backfit rule is not -- I 4 think the fitness for duty paper demonstrates if we vote for 5 it as proposed demonstrates that the backfit rule doesn't 6 have to be a straitjacket, and that there is some 7 flexibility there that the Commission will consider in 8 appropriate circumstances. But I agree with the Chairman, 9 it's a very good set of questions, and we will continue as 10 you will to struggle with getting the answer right.
11 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: As we move along this path more 12 fully, I think there are going to be a number of issues 13 where the risk-informed approach or the part of it that has 14 to do with risk assessments are going to cross the 15 deterministic, and as more of those stack up, I suspect the 16 Commission's going to have to deal with it as a generic 17 policy issue.down the line.
18 Let me see if there's another regional question, 19 and then I'll get the gentleman here. Is there another 20 regional question?
21 Oh, well, they're switched. Okay. l l
'22 MR. HECK: Okay. I had another anonymous question 23 from the audience.
24 How many actual staff hours were used for this 25 event?-
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S- 51 1 [ Laughter.]
2 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: I'll let Mrs. Norry provide 3 that for you after the fact.
4 MR. HECK: .Thank you. I have-some more questions.
5 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Okay.
6 COMMISSIONER MERRIFIELD: I would like to say 7 this. I mean, I don't know about the other Commissioners, T 8 think thia is worthwhile. I think it's useful for us to be 9 able to get up in front of the staff and answer questions 10 and give you some view of where we believe the Agency is 11 going. I mean, that's sort of a loaded question, gee, is 12 this a waste-of time?- I certainly don't believe it!s a 13 waste of time. I think it's a useful use of our time.
14 COMMISSIONER DICUS: Let me add something to that 15 .too, because I agree with Commicsioner Merrifield. I think 16 it's very useful. But implied I guess in the question is is 17 there a suggestion of another way that these could be done 18 or a better way to have this kind of interchange. Perhaps 19 the person at some point will ask that question.
20 . COMMISSIONER MERRIFIELD: Or have a suggestion.
21 COMMISSIONER DICUS: Yes, suggestions on how we L22 might do something different.
23 . CHAIRMAN JACKSON: That's true. I think that the 24 presence of the Commission here indicates the Commission's 25 basic position in~ terms of the utility of having these kinds ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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p S- 52 1 of'open meetings with the staff, which is why I didn't feel * '
2 the need specifically to address it, particularly since I've 3 'been doing it for the last four years.
4 And while we are'very mindful of how we husband 5 and use.our resources, the opportunity to meet face to face 6 with the staff is one that I think is critical. But it's 7 been.so critical that I guess I thought it was obvious. But 8; we will nonethelesa provide -- all I'm saying, there's 9 nothing hidden. We will provide the specific information.
10 COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: Madam Chairman, just to 11 echo everybody_else, this is an important meeting. Every 12- book I've read about change processes in agencies say that 13 agencies under stress need to maximize internal 14 communications. I know NRR and NMSS and Research are trying 15 to'do that in their individual All Hands Meetings, and other 16 ' offices undoubtedl'y have them. But there's no amount of 17 internal communication that's too much, according to the 18 books, when an organization is undergoing change. We are in 19 control of our own future, as the Chairman says at the 20 moment, but we're still an agency undergoing numerous 21 changes simultaneously, and we're still an agency that's 22 under some stress.
23' So I don't'think, you know, on a light note I will 24 note that Pat Norry managed to pull it off so that the tent 25 today also will cover the awards ceremony tomorrow, and so ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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fl I S- 53 l 1- as a matter of economy and-efficiency I think we have 2- managed to save a little bit of money, and I commend Pat for 3 .doing that.
4 MR. HECK: Okay. This is a two-part question for 5 all of you.
6 .The first part is could-you comment on how well
~7 the Executive Council of CFO, CIO, and EDO works, compared 8 to the previous method of a. single EDO. And the second 9 part, the rulemaking web site is run by Admin under the'EDO.
10 SECY. web sites are run by CIO. -Could they both be run 11 better if combined under one office? Both could use
' 12 - additional resources.
13 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: I'll take the last part of.the 14 second question as a comment, and we'll consider that, and I 15 think theres always the opportunity to look at how the web 16 sites are managed, .and we'll take a look at that.
17- -But I'm going to let my Commission colleagues 18 comment if they wan,t about the EC. But I definitely have a 19 comment., But I'm going to begin-this. time with the 20 Commissioners.
21 Commissioner Dicus.
22 COMMISSIONER DICUS: I think I really don't feel 23- ' particularly well prepared to answer the question without 24 knowing a little. bit more about the workings that go on, 25 .because the EC deals more with the Chairman's office than it b
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S- 54 1 does with the' Commission offices. So I would more likely
- 2 think that maybe the EC members might have to answer that 3 ~ question.
4 COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: I think that, number 1,
-5 the law has -- for better or worse those congressional staff l 6- writers like Merrifield and McGaffigan have said that we 7 will be - that there will be a CIO, that there will be a 8_ CFO,. and that'they really-are in some sense coequal with the -
9 'EDO, although the EDO is first among them. That's the way.
10 the law is set up.
11: They report directly, each of them, to the 12- chairman, and you can argue about whether that's the best
-13 thing and whether you'd be better off with a single head, 14 but given that that's the law, I think that the group of 15 people who are' working on the Executive Council at the 16 moment' chaired by Dr. Travers do a very good job.
17 The Chairman'in her remarks talked about license 18 renewal, and there are some crosscutting issues that.come up
-19 in license renewal that aren't strictly in the EDO shop. i 20 The~ budget has to be put together by the group as a whole, 21 and they work well-there. So I think that the Executive 22 Council -- we had one briefing on this subject -- the l
23 Executive ~ Council has-done a very good job. There are some j 24 cases where I believe~they each defer to each other because 25 there isn't much of a crosscut, and that's appropriate as ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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F l S- 55 1
1 well.
- 2. COMMISSIONER MERRIFIELD: Having been only here 3- seven months, eight months, I didn't know the previous 4 structure, so I don't feel qualified to comment on the 5' . current council relative to the future one. I would only 6 say7that certainly the interim Chairman and the permanent 7 Chairman will want to have a structure that fits their own 8 needs, and certainly if they wish to consult me about my 9 views on it, I will engage as is appropriate.
10 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Well, I think the fundamental
.11 statements that can be made are these, and I think like one 12 of the previous questions, this one probably has more behind 13 it than meets the' eye. But my comments are these, j 14 First of all, as Commissioner McGaffigan has l 15 pointed out, the law spells out certain things in terms of 16 the existence of the CIO', the existence of a CFO, as well as 17' the existence of the EDO, and the fact that each one 18 individually reports to the Chairman, each one has his or
' 19 her own portfolio to manage. Because, though, there are
-20 crosscutting issues and because there's a need for 21~ agencywide strategic implementation of a number of things, 22 one has to bring such'a group.together, whether it occurs 23 under their own aegis or as a group that reports as a group 24 to the Chairman in addition to individually. That kind of 25 crossfeed has to occur.
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S- 56 "l' And.I.am totally. unapologetic about it because.it Lonly makes good business and management sense. Secondly, in 3 most.well run organizations, the person who-has the
'4; : operational' aspects doesn't necessarily -- is not 5 :necessarily -- is not the one who holds'the purse strings,
, 6l who sees to how that budget itself as'a. budget is both
- 7. ' structured ~ initially, but is in fact executed as a budget.
8 :Thtit.is~different than the execution of the program.
9 Nonetheless, the EC is structured where.what goes 10 on has.to support'and undergird what goes on in the
- 11 regulatory' program, which is why, in fact, the EDO chairs
- 12 that group. In addition, when we in fact implemented this
'13 structure,'once'these -- with the creation of the individual
- 14. ' offices and incumbents to hold those positions and 15 structured the' Executive Council, it in fact underwent OMB~
16 review and they were very strongly supportive of, in fact, 17- this structure, to the' point that they were going to 18 recommend it to other agencies, and made the comment that 19 having the intertwined EDO and CFO'was not s'omething that 20 they particularly liked'from the beginning.
But.at the time 21 the CFO Act was put into place, agencies were doing a lot of 22 different things'and so they let it happen..
23 And so I think the more healthy and fruitful 24" approach'is not to try to long for the past, but rather to 25 look at hcw one can make the future work better. I think ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 57 1 you have high quality individuals who hold the positions and 2 who manage their individual portfolios. I think they are 3 working their way in terms of what their working 4 relationship is. I think that we have an excellent Chairuan 5 of that group in Dr. Travers and the group is going to have 6 to work together as a group whatever happens down the line.
7 And if we went about trying to unwind it and have 8 everything glommed onto the EDo position, first of all, it 9 is an overload for the EDC, but it is not something that 10 ~ would be supported by the cognizant agencies, but most 11 particularly by OMB. And so I think the really healthy 12' thing is to look at how it needs to -- how these individuals 13 need to work together in the future and how that can best be 14 accomplished. Each one of them as individuals has a heck of l
15 a lot in his or.her own portfolio to manage and I think they 16 potentiate and help each other.
17 But I don't know if anY of you want to make any 1
18 comments at this time. I don't know want to put you on the j 19 spot. Okay.
20 By the way, I mentioned the CFO -- CIO. You know 21' that Mr. Galante is retiring and I am going.to ask Mr.
22 Reiter, Stu Reiter to stand. We have hired him as the new i 23 Deputy CIO and h3 will step in as the acting CIO when Mr. 1 24 Galante leaves until the next Chairman and Commission decide 1 25 who it would like to have as the new CIO.
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m S- 58
~
1 Are there further questions? Please.
2 MR. STEWART: My name is Jim Stewart, I work for 3 the INC Branch in NRR. I would like to thank the Commission 4 for their gracious words about the skill and the hard work 5 of the staff. I hope that the Commission can say the same 6 thing 10 years from now.
7 We currently are finding difficulty in 8 participating with our international counterparts in codes 9 and standards group, even though that we pay to belong to 10 those groups out of our own pockets and do most of the work 11 at home on our own.
12 I.am wondering if the Commission has any plans to 13 facilitate the staff' keeping up with the state of the art.
14 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Well, I think the Commission, 15 even in certain instances with some of the rulemakings and 16
- policies that have promulgated, have urged the staff to work 17 with various standard-setting bodies and code development 18 groups. If there are specific issues that relate to 19 budgetary considerations, then I am going to be asking -- I 20 will ask the EDO, and I am asking him now, to look into 21 that. But I don't believe that there is any -- been any 22 movement away from a desire to have the staff involved in 23 these kinds of activities.
24 Now, there always may be a question in terms of 25 how much and who, but that is something that we have to ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 59 1 resolve within the context of overall priorities and overall l
2 planning and prioritization. But I don't believe that as a 1
3 general policy that there is any movement of the Commission I 4 away from that. .
5 I am sure that as things goes on, any time there
. 6 are things that people are accustomed to doing, that they 7 may or may not be doing at any given point in time, there is 8 concern. But we will look at that to see if there seems to 9 be some detrimental effect. But I don't believe there has 10 been any policy shift. But we can look at that.
11 COMMISSIONER MERRIFIELD: Madame Chairman.
12 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Yes.
13 COMMISSIONER MERRIFIELD: If I can make a comment, 14 because I think there is an underlying issue in your 11 question as well, and I am not sure if you meant this or 16 not, but there have been challenges to the money that we as 17 an agency spend on international efforts as a whole. And 18 some of stakeholders, some of our licensees asked the 19 question -- gee, why do we have to spend -- why do we as an 20 agency spend this money on international efforts that 21 doesn't bring any direct benefit to us?
22 And the answer that I give -- that I give to those 23 licensees is that it does. I had the opportunity to 24 participate in my first visit this year, and I happened to 25 visit -- first foreign visit, I happened to visit Slovenia, ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 60 l' .where we.have aul excellent understanding with them, a very i i
- 2. good'-interchange of information. Countries like Slovenia
. 3' out'there,'which-have relatively'small staffs, and I know 4 there were comparisons in the Tim Martin report about how
- 5. big'our staff.is versus these other countries'. These 6 countries.use virtua11yiline by line-our regulations. I 71 meanLthere are parts of this world that heavily depend on 8 Iheknowledgeandexpertiseofthisagencytomakesurethat 9 their. reactors and the materials licensees that they 3.0 regulate are safe.
11- I think anyone who has an understanding of this 1:L agency and this industry recognizes that problems associated 13 .with a nuclear power' plant in.a foreign country have a 14 direct and dramatic impact on licensees in the United 15- ' States. To the extent that we are active and continue to be 16 active internationally,.I think it is in the interests of 17' ourl country, and I think in the interests of international
'18 good.will,f it is bene,ficial to those' countries that we' work
- 19. with. -
20- Now,.the argument is,Lshould'some of the monies 21 .that we spend on our international program come off the fee 22 base?- Should we get' monies from general revenues to pay for 23 those?' The Commission in the recent submission it made to 24 OMBiasked for'10 percent of our funds, of the $470 million E25 that.we,need to.run our operation, to come from general
..~
'% 0
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S- 61 1 revenues for things like the international program.
2 But the underlying issue for me, and I would 3 challenge this of any of licensee, is I believe that the 4 int'ernational programs that we have -- and I congratulate 5 James Dunleavy, head of our new international program --
6 those are vital programs. We play a huge part international 7 in ensuring that nuclear material and nuclear licensees are 8 safe, and I don't think we should back down from that at all 9 to any of our licensees. -
10 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Commissioner McGaffigan.
11' Please.
12 COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: Just, there is another 13 underlying issue I think you started from, and let me just 14 try to make a broad statement with regard to that. I 15 personally am very concerned about this agency 10 or 15 or
^
16- 20 years from now being as technically' competent as it is 17 today. This agency is not unique in facing a real 18 challenge, as government continues to downsize,.as the 19' demographics of the work force, you^know, we tend to get 20 almost a year older for every year that passes when you are 21 not hiring, and as the civil service system's golden 22 -handcuffs, which affect many in the audience -- I am in 23 furs, but -- not because I wasn't in government then, but 24 because.I may have made a mistake.
25 [ Laughter.]
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S- 62 1 COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: But as the golden
- 2 handcuffs of CSRS disappear,.how do we compete? Not just
'3 us, how does NASA, how does NSF, how does the Advanced 4 Research Projects, Agency at the Department of Defense, how 5 does DOE? And I don't think we really are facing that 6 issue. I think we are sort of getting by at the moment.
7 But we almost need an interagency group that looks at 8 incentives that we can provide technical work forces, here 9 and elsewhere, and we have to solve our own problem. I am 10 not going to say everybody - if everybody else isn't ready 11 - to march, and we are ready to march, we should march.
12 But we need to have incentives in place that we 13 can maintain good folks, that we can recruit a few folks so 14 that when, you know, the block obsolescence problem happens, 15 as we call it in the Defense world, when all the destroyers )
l 16 hit age 35 and have to be retired and there is nothing there {
17 to replace them with, we have got to deal with that issue 18 upfront.
19- And I keep looking at the demographics. I think l 20 we get an annual memo -- Paul Byrd isn't here -- from Paul )
21 that talks about the demographics of the agency, and they 22 are not good if you look 10 or 15 years into the future and 23 expect normal retirements during that period. And so I 24 think you are onto a real underlying issue. The piece of it 25 as to what we can do today to incentivize folks to stay ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 63 1 active in standards body is a small part of a broader 2 problem, I fear. And we are particularly hard-hit in this 3 agency because, you know, they keep closing down nuclear 4 engineering departments in universities and the Chairman has 5 to write letters to even our local university to keep them
-6 from doing-that.
7 And so making sure that we can attract and retain 8 the people we need to do our job is going to become 9 non-trivial given all these larger forces that are out 10 there.
11 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Let me make a couple of quick 12 comments. First of all, all of these things, you know, are 13 not -- the~ kind of question you raise is important in and of 14 itself, but all of these things are nested issues. The 15 whole pipeline is a question. And as one who is about to go 16 off and become a university president, and of a 17 technological university, it is a serious-issue in terms of 18 who studies these s,ubjects, what subjects they study.
19 'Rensselaer itself had a nuclear engineering department. It 20 has a nuclear engineering program today that is part of 21 another department, but it is a way to maintain some 22 activity in that area.
23- I have in fact spoken with industry people from 24- the point of view that if they feel that the issue of 25 maintaining-competence, because they raise that question ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 64 1 with me, in the technical areas that undergird nuclear I 2 activities is a problem that NRC is going to solve, or that 3 even the government alone is going to solve, without their 4 voting with their feet, it is not going to happen.
5 But going on to Commissioner Merrifield's comment 6 about the international arena, I am very happy to hear him 7 say that because I feel that what we have been spending our 8 time doing, and it is not a criticism of the Commission's 9 actions, because it is I think something that we had to do, 10 but what we have been spending our time doing is thinking 11 about some ad hoc ways to save certain aspects of our 12 program, such as international, as opposed to coming out 13 with a fundamental, broader policy statement about -- and 14 position about the importance of these activities and how l
15 they are core to what we do. l 16 People seem to want to focus a lot on 17 international programs, which repre'sent, in terms of the 18 actual office, 1 percent of our budget. Okay. And so~it is 19 like fighting over a penny when, you know, we had better be )
l 20 worrying about the whole dollar. And so I have found this ]
21 quite distressing. But to this point, I think we have, 22 ourselves, as a Commission have not posited a fundamental 1
23 policy position, as a Commission, as to what the l 24 international programs and other programs that are subjects 25 to these kinds of pressures that they don't directly benefit i
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S- 65 1 the licensees, we have not done that.
2 And I think, if you ask me, where I think we need 3 to put some effort, I think we need to put some effort in 4 that arena. I,mean an issue relates to Agreement States.
5 Now that is a real one, because as more states become 6 Agreement States, we don't get any fee revenues from those 7 licensees, but there are certain fundamental infrastructural 8 and overall technical support things that we do. Question 9 -- where is the money coming from? Okay. And then is there 10 another -- there's more Agreement States, et cetera. Now, 11 that may range from our restructuring the whole question of 12 whether we do get fees or not from licensees and Agreement 13 States, or from them, or how it all gets arranged. 'But we 14 are going to have to grapple with that. !
15 But this excessive and obsessive focus on 16 international programs and whether they benefit our ,
t
- 17. licensees is wrong. It is short-sighted, it doesn't 18 recognize reality.
Some of the reality.is what Commissioner {
)
19 Merrifield mentioned, but there's a lot of other reality i l
20 that even is related to laws that say that we must do )
I
-21 certain things in certain areas. I 22 And, finally, whether we are -- you know', if we 23 not processing a license application for a licensee, and 24 having that be the only metric of whether things are of
- 25. benefit.to our domestic licensees, then people are not, you i
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S- 66 1 ~know, reading the printed page. You never heard me speak 2 .this strongly about it, but it is an argument that I really 3 get, you know, worn out with, with our having to deal with.
4 And then finally, this question of taking 10 ;
-5 percent-off the fee base, which is what the Commission has 6 proposed, but it is to try to have a situation where certain 7 activities aren't specifically targeted. Now, if you ask
-8 me, now I obviously am part of this Commission majority that 9 has decided to do that. But if you ask me whether a health 10 and safety agency ought to have its health and safety 11 activities be fee based, then, you know, see me after the 12 program. ,
13~ [ Laughter.]
14 Because I think there'is a fundamental issue there.
15 And then my final statement is because this is 16 another one that comes up, and I feel very strongly about 17 this, people seem to have an idea that a lot of what we've l'8 been doing with' planning, budgeting, and performance
' , .19 -- management, with looking at, you know, administrative 20 functions, with looking at how we can efficiently deploy and 21 use information technology, with improving our processes, 22 whether' it's work planning in the regniatory program or 23 something else, that it's somehow all driven by the fact 24~ that we've got to save money for the licensees in fees.
25 I'm here to tell you that that has never been and
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S- 67 l' is not my reason, because I've been the one driving a lot of 2 this planning issue, theseLplanning issues, because I feel 3 we have a responsibility to manage the resources we have 4 effectively and efficiently from wherever they come.
.5 Because somehow.there's an implication that if it's from l 6 licensee fees, we have~a-greater responsibility to manage
_7 them wisely than if it comes from John Q. Public's pocket or 8 the ratepayers of the utilities. And I'm saying we are a 9 Government agency, we're a public agency, we have certain 10 responsibilities in the law, some are explicit, and some are 11 related to our making prudent judgments about how we carry 12- out those programs.
s 13 We are funded -- Congress decided how we should be 14 funded, but _ we have to do _ our jobs . But in the end in terms
'15 of being prudent in how we manage those resources I feel is 16 a greater responsibility if the money is coming out of your 17 pocket, coming out of some utility pocket, or their 18: ratepayers' pockets, which is really where it ends up coming 191' from. And so we need to keep that in mind.
20 The point of being efficient and effective to me 21 has nothing_to do with where the money comes from. It has 22 to do with what is prudent and what~ is the right thing to l
i 23 do. And so I want you to understand me in that regard, 24 'because at least from where I sit there is no confusion with s
- 25 respect.to that. I don't try to save money for Utility X or 1
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m S- 68 l' . Utility Y. I do .it because. we can do a better job in how we 1
- 2 plan,cbudget, and manage what we do.
l 3 Excuse' 'me .
4: (Applause.]-
5 MS.'SILLER: My question is, do you anticipate
-6' that?.the decrease in NRC research funding.will continue? If 7 so, how do.you believe this will affect the nuclear 8 industry's overall safety?
9 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: This morning the Commission 10 made a very strong. set of statements in terms of our belief 11' in the utility of research, that we will have a research 12 program. It.is a critical part of what we do. The Research 13 Office has the same responsibility of other offices to plan
- 14. wisely, to prioritize, to manage their resources, but we're
- 15 ' not going to sit here and have the Research Office go to 16 .- zero, if that's your question.
- 17 Thank'you. Are there any more regional questions?
18 No? .Any more --
19 .MR. HECK: I just got handed one more question
-20 from the audience..
21- To what extent is the Commission worried about 22 slides for public meetings providing potential sound bites 23- 'that may'or may not be taken out of context?
24 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: .Nell, there's something you 25 'know about this?
, r i
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S- 69 1 [ Laughter.]
2 COMMISSIONER DICUS: Yes, a little bit.
3 (Laughter.]
l 4 No, I don't-know if it comes from this, but when L 5 we were in Nevada and met with the various groups, that 6j issue did surface, and there I think one of the things, one 7 of the slides that we had shown at a meeting had the 8 terminology " successful licensing of Yucca Mountain," and 9 that was taken to mean we had already made the decision to 10 license it. So I think we have to be very, very careful 11 with the slides,.whatever they are, and I have discussed 12 this some with. staff, to be sure if we do a slide like that.
13 we.really explain what that'means.
14- There were some slides that DOE had used that the 15- same situation came up. So I think we're obviously going to
-16 use slides, but perhaps greater care in ensuring that
-17 terminology is explained and hopefully.not taken out of 18 context. You can't guard against that entirely, but being a
'19 , little more careful.what's on a slide may be helpful.
20 CHAIRMAN' JACKSON: I think the general message of 21 making sure that the proper context is provided and the 22 definitions are clear and not assumed is critical. And so I 23' don't have anything else to add.
24 Is there another question?
25 Yes, please.
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S- 70 1 VOICE: The Department of Energy has expressed not '
2 that long ago an interest in having the NRC regulate many of 3 its facilities, and I believe it was about two years or so 4 .ago that Tara O'Toole came in here and briefed the
- 5. Commission about.that and made a fairly strong pitch in 6 favor of that approach.
7 As you are all well aware, there appears to have 8' been a change of heart on the part of the Depart ment. The 9 Secretary has come out with a statement that opposes 10 external' regulation, and the Defense Nuclear Facilities 11 Safety Board has also come out with a document that has 12 certain arguments in it that I think are of dubious 13 validity.
14 But in any event, I wondered whether any of you
- 15. would want to venture an opinion at least publicly as to how.
16 you think this will eventually play out. And do you think
- 17. external regulation is dead in the water forever, or do you 18 think it has a chance -- does it-still have a pulse at all 19 and might-Congress have.a change of heart in that regard and 20 support it?' I 21 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: A similar question actually was 22 raised this morning, and I thank.you for raising.that. You
'23 know,-let me just kind of background it by saying that the 24 Commission is about to send off to the Congress with its 25- approval and guidance the staff's paper on external ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. l Court Reporters 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014
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S- 71 1 regulation, which as you know is different.in certain i 2 aspects from DOE's.
3 .The reason we're'doing that is because.the 4 Commission clearly has a point of view that external 5' regulation of DOE nuclear facilities and activities 6' particularly in' areas like energy research and nuclear 7' ' energy _has much'valuel to add,- and that it is not something 8 that would'be-excessively difficult or expensive to bring 9- into being,
-10 But to address the heart of your question, clearly 11' there's been a migration and a change in the policy position l'2 . within the Department of Energy since -- actually it's 13- probably more like three years ago the whole idea of 14 . external regulation was initially brought to us, and I don't
- 15. know if you recall, but.it was probably -- the' idea of
- 16 ; embarking on something like that was something that the 17 Commission initially felt fairly _ lukewarm about -- but as 18 part of;the strategic assessment and rebaselining, we put
'19 out the question as part of a'DSI.of whether this is 20- something the Commission could -- the NRC could do or should 21 do. And we got;a lot of stakeh' older input, enormous, that 22- suggested and urged us along that line. So we moved along
- 23. that line.
'24 We've done what we've setiout-to do in terms of 25 Lconducting the' pilot program. I don't believe that the
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S- 72 1 pilot itself is, going any further. We've gotten clear 2 signals from the relevant authorization and even now 3 ' appropriations committees that that is not a direction the 4 Congress is ready,.to move in now, and without the support of 5 the Congrass and the Secretary of Energy, it's something 6 that's not going to happen.
7 'I said this morning, however, that I do believe 8 two things. One is that external regulation as an overall 9 policy approach is an idea whose time will come again, and 10 the work that the NRC has done as laid out in the staff 11 paper and with the commentary the Commission will be 12 providing as we submit this report to Congress will be a 13 documentary record that will be very important and us.eful to 14 policy makers when that idea comes again.
15 But inLth'e interim, we do have, and Commissioner 16 McGaffigan nicely laid them out this morning, a number of 17 activities _where we are quite~ engaged either directly or 18' statutorily with oversight of a number of DOE nuclear 19 activities, and I believe on an incremental basis kind of 20 step by step, I said it's a house that will be built brick 21 by brick. I think we will end up with more involvement.
2
.2 Commissioner McGaffigan, and I don't want to take 23 anything away from what-he might say, because he has worked 24- very closely with me on these issues, pointed out a number 25 of activities which I could delineate, but I'm going to let ANN RILEY &-ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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- *- l' him do it, where we already are involved. So let me give 2 the microphone to him.
3 ' COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: Just very briefly, and 4 the. Commission is united on this, we don't want to leave 5' those arguments of dubious validity standing any more than 6 .you do. There are still people in the Congress who support 7- this c.oncept. Witness the action of the House Science 8- . Committee a few weeks ago. But the Chairman is exactly 9 right, when the Agency is opposed and significant other 10 entities, the Senate Appropriations Committee had expressed 11 in its report that it's no longer interested, we're not 12 going to get the legislation passed anytime soon.
13 I do think-that the arguments fairly laid out are 14 fairly compelling, and sort of the Chairman talked about the 15 interaction we had when we did the DSI, the fairly 16 overwhelming public endorsement of our involvement which at 17 ' .that time corresponded with Secretary O' Leary's and Under 18 : Secretary Grumbly's views and former. Chairman Hearn's views 19 and lots of-folks' views.
20' I think~every new Secretary of Energy will.have 21 this' issue before them, as Secretary Richardson did,.and I 22- cannot predict that every future Secretary of Energy will 23 make the same choice that he made not to go down this 24- course. And in any case we will have left a-record that I
- 25. think debunks many of these arguments of dubious validity
~
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1 S- 74 1 for the record when that day does come.
2 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: An additional commentary I 3 might make on your question is this. It's kind OL like a 4 response in a certain sense to questions. people often pose 5 to me about when and/or if I believe or if and/or when I
,6 believe there will ever be another new nuclear plant built 7 'in this country. And I talk about the shakeout in the 8 electric utility industry, blah blah blah.
9 I believe that there's a lot of examination at the
- 10. moment of DOE and what it is and what it might be and what 11 needs to happen with its various constituent pieces, and I' 12 would argue that as that's going on, there will be 13 discussions about oversight in various arenas, but until 14 .that plays out also I think we won't know where we might 15 come out with regard to a more specific answer to your
- 16 question.
17 COMMISSIONER DICUS: I'd like if I could just to 18 add a little bit, and then I think he has another question.
19 But I didn't address this this morning. But based upon my 20 experience, when I was on USEC's board of directors, and 21- 'more recently the four months that I did spent at the Safety 22 Board, where I got to know DOE facilities a lot better, 23 there's no doubt in my mind that they would all benefit from 24 -NRC involvement. There clearly are problems, and-I think
'25 ~we're definitely the best agency to deal with those problems ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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m S- 75
'a 1 across the board.
2 I think in the separate report that we are sending 3
to Congress I think the staff has done an excellent job of 4 identifying _and addressing overarching issues together with 5 some of'the generic issues. I think it's well within our 6 framework to be able to deal with those. And all that part 7 I'm truly in lockstep with my fellow Commissioners.
8 I do depart in two areas, however, and I'm very 9 concerned that -- and this again is based upon my experience 10 at USEC and to some extent the Safety Board -- that we must 11 keep in mind that the three pilots we did are fundamentally 12 typical DOE facilities, and we're very, very, very close to 13 what we would be typically regulating. f 14 Should we go and should it happen, and I don't 15 have a crystal ball, but the range and broader types of DOE 16 facilities I do have concerns about the ease and the costs 17 and whether we are underestimating in that area. Otherwise, 18 I agree with my Commissioners.
19 VOICE: Well, actually I don't have another 2,0 question, but just a follow-on to your comment, Ms.
21 Chairman, and that is that my question I guess in part was 22 inspired by the fact that,.as you pointed out or alluded to, j 23 there have been a number of attacks on DOE recently from a 24 number of quarters, from different directions actually, and l 25 it therefore may not be viewed as favorably in terms of j ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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S- 76
- 1 being able to manage its own affairs, as might have been the 2 case when the Approprictions Committee or whatever came out
-3 with its favorable ruling in their direction so I was just
- 4. curious as to whether or not you thought things had 5 progressed:enough now-to change things or whether it was 6 going to take even more time.
7 Certainly, you know, Chairman Richardson or 8 Secretary Richardson rather is a temporary employee, a 9 little more permanent than maybe you are --
10 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: No , he's probably more s
11 temporary than I am.
12 (Laughter.) ,
13 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: I have been here four plus 14 years.
15 VOICE: People come and go in the department, a's 16 you know, in any agency and Administrations change, and you 17 know, things could change, that's all.
~
11 8 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: I mean I understand the point
' , 19- you are making. I thi.nk a lot of what drives any support
{
20' 'for an idea like this rests in two places. One has to do 21 ~w ith the leadership of the given department or agency at the 22 time and the persistence of that policy perspective, but the 23 second has to do with the view of the Congress in terms of i
. :24 the particular department or agency and how it is doing and 25 how it manages itself, and so I think we will just have to )
l i
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S- 77 E' 1 see.
I 2 Any.other-question? Then I think we will try to 3- wrap up after this.
4 MR. HALL: Chairman Jackson?. '
l 5 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Okay.
. 6 MR. HALL: This is a follow-up to the question on 7- the amount of resources expended for this meeting. This was 8 submitted anonymously. I-am just the messenger.
9 [ Laughter.)
10- MR. HALL: The Commission noted that the purpose 11 of this' meeting is to foster ~ communication with the Staff.
12 At this meeting this has been accomplished. We appreciate 13 the candid and thoughtful responses to the questions.
14 COMMISSIONER MERRIFIELD: Thank you.
15 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Thank you. Whoever anonymously 16 'said that should have stood up'and said it and -- but it is '
17 fruitful for us. I mean it's not a one-way street. I.think
]
18 .w hat's the beauty of these meetings is-that it does allow us 19 -to getzvery direct input. However sharp the-questions may
. ]
20 be, I think it is important that we hear them and that we
-21 try to respond. 'Yes?
22' -
VOICE: Again, thank you for expressing your 23 . concerns today and addressing our questions. )
24 1My question-deals with the agency's IT software ;
i 25 and database applications. Currently it seems our policy ANN RILEY &. ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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>. 1 has.been to allow contractors to do the majority of the 2 work, and I agree this is a good' policy for very large
, '3 ' ' systems like ADAMS, but a lot of the systems on the Staff 4; level that.are very-small and.we have to adopt this policy 5 'it seems very costly and timely to go through contractors
'6 and get things done and also.-- we are also-just maintaining 17 inadeq'u ate systems,fantiquated systems by'this policy.
8 What would you say'or your comments of allowing 9 -Staff to use some of the very current and off-the-shelf 10 applications.such.as databases and things where we can 11 maintain them, design them, and run'them on the Staff level 12 and have more control over them?
13 CRAIRMAN JACKSON: Well, I think that they are in 14 atsituation -- I appreciate;that question. I think in'a 15- situation like that involving the use and implementation of 16 information' technology, be it software or hardware, there 17 always is.a balance between allowing and having the 18 flexibility available;to.the Staff to do what it'needs to do 19 to accomplish'its. work and to be able to manage the systems 120 that way,.on the'one side, but on the other not having such ,
21~ a proliferation of systems and/or customization of systems 22 to.the point.that no one can understand them or make u c of 23 them or-access them)but the given group of individuals.
24' In addition, where we are trying to go with ADAMS 25 is to be able to establish and make use of standardized ANN RILEY-& ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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9 S- 79 1 databases that allow us all to sing from the same page in 2 areas where we need to do-that, but nonetheless have the 3 flexibility built in for people to make use of the system 4 for their own needs.
5 Then the final comment I would make is that 6 whatever we do, I mean information technology is a tool and 7 it is meant to f acilitate our being able to do our jobs and 8' again, you know, I think this is something that the CIO in 9 particular has to grapple with but the CIO working with the 10 EDO through, you know, their efforts really have to give 11 attention to it, but what we don't want to go back to is 12 everybody having his own customized system that nobody else 13 > understands but that group and that things are very 14 _ proprietary, because a big part of the overall planning 15 methodology that we have embarked on is to have a more 16 integrated approach and allows us to have a better sense not 17 only of how the different activities weave together in order 18 to achieve certain outcomes, but to have the best use cf 19 resources that we can.
20 So in a certain sense I am not arguing or 21- suggesting that we may go back to exactly what people may
- 22. have thought was ideal in the past. At the same time we are 23 not trying to handcuff people to keep them from doing their
'24 jobs and so I think it is something that the CIO needs to 25 deal with, and then Mr. Reiter, coming in, has actually had ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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n S- 80 1 the experience of managing any number of projects in very
- 2 ' technical organizations where'these sorts of issues have to
, 3' be dealt with not only on a planning basis but on a
'4 day-to-day basis, and so'I think as he and Mr. Galante 5 effect their transition that he will be able to address a 6 n' umber of these concerns.
7 Okay. This is the last one, but we can't let this 8 gentleman not ask his next question.
9 MR. COLLINS: I am still David Collins and I am
.10 .still from Region II.
11 [ Laughter.)
.12 MR. COLLINS: I am sorry you tromped-on my toes, 13 very sorry, because what I about to tell you is going to be 14 very disquieting to you.
11 5 I work daily with a tracking system that simply 16 logs. data and gives it back to me in seven or eight 17 different' forms, written in now obsolete program language
-18~ which'is no longer supported by the system. After it was 19 written, it ran for about three years. It had minor 20 problems which never got fixed, and along comes OCIO who 21 says, okay, folks, now you have to pay for it, so we put in 22 a request to get the system fixed and got told that it was 23' ofesuch a low priority t, hat it was not going to happen
'24 The system failed utterly and miserably the first j 25- part of this year. It is still broken. We are doing 1
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S- 81 1 manually today what we did with a computer system one year 2 ago. It's no fun and we have no way of replacing it and we 3 have no assistance to replace it.
4 Where do we go from here?
5 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Well, the way you go from here 6 is that in fact that needs to be elevated through the EDO's i 7 attention, which I am sure you have just done, even in this 8 meeting.
9 [ Laughter.)
10 ' CHAIRMAN JACKSON: He has to work that issue with 11 the CIO, but there are going to be systems that are -- that 12 will become obsolete f.or various reasons and will not 13 necessarily continue to be supported, but that happens in 14 general in an information technology environment.
15 However, having said that, the way any transition 16 occurs where one migrates from one system being supported to 17 another, should not be where your ability to do your job 18 just drops off the map, and.so that is something we need to 19 take a look at.
20 MR. COLLINS: Thank you, ma'am. That is what we 21 have.been saying for the last six months. l 22- CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Well, but now you have me 23 sitting here with the EDO and you have the Commission and 24- all these witnesses.
25 MR. COLLINS: Yes, ma'am.
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'1' [ Laughter.]
- 2. CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Great. Wel'1, thank you very 3 much. This has been a great session and we appreciate your 4 interesteand your patience.
5 [ Applause.]
6 [Whereupon, at 3:55 p.m., the meeting was 7 concluded.]-
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CERTIFICATE This is to certify' that ' the att;.;hed description of a meeting lof-the'U.S. Nuclear: Regulatory. Commission entitled:
a
_ TITLE.OF MEETING: - ALL. EMPLOYEES.MEETINO B PUBLIC MEETING PLACE OF MEETING: Rockville, Maryland l
'DATE OF' MEETING: ' Tuesday, June 15, 1999 I ., ,,
r- was held as herein appears, is a true and accurate record of the: meeting,.and that this is the original' transcript thereof
! taken stenographically by me, thereafter reduced to
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