ML20151T859
| ML20151T859 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 09/03/1998 |
| From: | NRC |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 9809100177 | |
| Download: ML20151T859 (62) | |
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA l NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION -
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Title:
ALL EMPLOYEES MEETING ON "THE GREEN"
' PLAZA AREA BETWEEN BUILDINGS AT WHITE FLINT -
PUBLIC MEETING f :.
Location: Rockville, Maryland ,
Date: -
Thursday, September 3,1998 0j/l Pages: 1 - 59 g0000, ,
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l I DISCLAIMER l
This is an unofficial transcript of a meeting of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission held on l September 3, 1998, in the Commission's office at One White Flint North, Rockville, Maryland. The meeting was open to public attendance and observation. This transcript has not l been reviewed, corrected or edited, and it may contain inaccuracies.
I The transcript is intended solely for general l informational purposes. As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of the formal or informal record of decision of the matters discussed. Expressions of opinion in this transcript do not necessarily reflect final determination or beliefs. No pleading or other paper may be filed with the Commission in any proceeding as the result of, or addressed to, any. statement or argument contained herein, except as the Commission may authorize.
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1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA i
l 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 ***
4 ALL EMPLOYEES MEETING ON "THE GREEN" 5 PLAZA AREA BETWEEN BUILDINGS AT 6 WHITE FLINT 7 ***
8 PUBLIC MEETING 9
10 11 Nuclear Regulatory Commission 12 White Flint North 13 Rockville, Maryland 14 Thursday, September 3, 1998 15 16 The Commission met in open session, pursuant to 17 notice, at 10:34 a.m., Shirley A. Jackson, Chairman, 18 presiding.
19 20 COMMISSIONERS PRESENT:
21 SHIRLEY A. JACKSON, Chairman of the Commission 22 NILS J. DIAZ, Commissioner 23 EDWARD McGAFFIGAN, JR., Commissioner 24 25 l
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i 1 PROCEEDINGS l
2 (10:34 a.m.]
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! 3 MRS. NORRY: I would like to welcome everyone to ,
l 4 this all-hands meeting with Chairman Jackson, Commissioner 5 Diaz, Commissioner McGaffigan.
6 We have the region offices and the Technical l 7 Training Center from Chattanooga on video, which is a first.
8 We also have all the resident sites on audio and the people 9 from all those places will be able to ask questions, as will i
10 the people here in the tent.
11 We have a number of questions that were submitted 12 in advance in response to our request to do so. We are 13 going to try to deal with as many of those as we can today, i
l 14 but we recognize there will also be questions that will l
l 15 occur to you during the presentation. You know where the l
16 microphones are. You can see them. One over there, one 17 there, and one there. So come forward and ask your 18 questions. We will try to balance the questions that we got i 19 in advance and those which you may want to ask this morning, i
! 20 I would just like to say that, as last year, we do l 21 not intend this particular meeting to address personnel l
l 22 policies, personnel practices or working conditions. For 23 that purpose, we will be having a partnership meeting where l 24 management officials and union officials will be in some 25 very large gathering which will be open to all employees to ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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3 1 ask those kinds of questions.. Those which you have already i
2 submitted in advance will be made a part of that meeting, 3 plus any others you want to ask.
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4 I would like to also point out that NTEU officials l 1
5 are seated down there in whatever row that is. Can you )
l 6 raise your hands?
7 [Show of hands.]
8 MRS. NORRY: The meeting I just referred to where 9 we will address partnership issues will be in October 10 sometime.
11 I would like to introduce Sue Smith and James Heck 12 who will be reading the questions and forwarding those that i 13 we'get from the regions.
14 With that, I would like to introduce Chairman 15 Jackson.
16 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Thank you, Mrs. Norry.
17 _Before we begin, I was wondering if perhaps we 18 could try to do without the ground level fans. They seem to 19 be providing a bit too much background noise. So if someone 20 could take care of that, we would appreciate it.
21 Good morning. With me today are NRC Commissioners 22 Nils Diaz and Edward McGaffigan, Jr. On behalf of my 23 Commission colleagues and myself, let me welcome all of you 24 to this special meeting of tia Commission with the NRC 25 staff. I extend that welcome both to those of you who are ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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4 1 assembled here in the tent at headquarters and also to 2 groups of employees connected by videoconference and by 3 telephone from the regions. .
4 These all employees meetings have become an annual 5 tradition at the NRC since 1991. They are intended to 6 stimulate and to facilitate direct communication between the 7 Commission and individual members of the staff on 8 mission-related policies and initiatives; to clarify the 9 Commission's agenda; to engender a shared vision; and to 10 motivate the staff in pursuit of that vision.
11 This year, as you know, the Commission actually 12 moved the date of this meeting forward because we especially 13 wanted to solicit your input during this time of transition.
14 I suppose'some of you may be thinking that we have 15 been in a time of transition for several years, and that in 16 fact would be an accurate thought, but the pace certainly
! 17 has accelerated in a number of areas in recent months.
18 I would like to thank all of you at the outset cx1 19 behalf of the Commission for the high degree of 20 professionalism, the hard work and the dedication that all 21 of you have exhibited.
22 As you know, the NRC has been the subject of a 23 number of recent external reviews from our congressional 24 appropriations and authorization committees, the General 25- Accounting Office, and other stakeholders.
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1 In fact, on July 17 the Commission invited a 2 number of its stakeholders, including some of our harshest !
3 critics, to engage in a round table discussion that was open j 4 to the NRC staff, the press and the public.
5 On July 30 the Commission testified in a hearing 1
6 before the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works !
7 Subcommittee on Clean Air, Wetlands, Private Property, and !
8 Nuclear Safety. !
i 9 These interactions have provided the Commission 10 with beneficial insights. Although the recent feedback has 11 provided a valuable range of perspectives on the strengths 12 and weaknesses of NRC regulatory policies and programs, 13 these general topics also have been the focus of various 14 Commission and staff efforts and initiatives for sometime.
15 Some of the particular areas of focus include 16 providing a more rapid transition to a risk-informed and, 17 where appropriate, performance-based regulatory framework.
l 18 Reexamining our reactor oversight processes, 19 including inspection, enforcement and performance 20 assessment, to ensure a proper safety focus, to enhance tne 21 objectivity and defensibility of our methods, and to l
j 22 eliminate unnecessary licensee burden.
23 Ensuring that some of our frequently used l_ 24 processes such as generic communications and confirmatory 25 action letters are subject to proper controls.
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6 1 Streamlining our licensing and adjudicatory l 2 processes.
3 Ensuring the overall effectiveness of our ,
4 organization, management and self-assessment capabilities, ,
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-5 including a reevaluation of staffing and resource needs.
6 In addition, a consistent thread that has run 7 through various critiques is the need for us to be clear 8 with our definitions and standards.
9 Now I'm sure that many of you have read various 10 trade press articles or have heard discussions that have led 111 you naturally to ask, what does it all mean? Where are we -
12 headed as an agency? Let me make'several points in this 13 regard. ,
14 First, we should remember that change can be good, 15 and.the Commission believes in this instance that change is 16 good. Many of you may remember that when I spoke to you at 17 an all employees meeting back in 1996 I' shared a vision 18' which included the need for NRC to position for change.
19 In fact, the NRC was in the process of active 20 change when some of these external reviews began, including 21 Commission initiatives such as the revisions of 10 CFR 22 50.59, the integrated review of reactor performance 23 assessment processes, the revisions to 10.CFR Part 35 and
-24 Part 70, and the new registration program for generally 25 licensed devices, as well as the' changes to our agency-wide ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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7 1 planning and budget framework.
2 These and many other initiatives had been in 3 various states of gestation before the recent focus on the 4 NRC, but they have not come to fruition. The recent l
' l 5 external interests and focus have proven then to be useful 6 in highlighting areas in which we need to accelerate change, l 7 as well as in revealing new areas that need additional 8 attention. These changes will have an effect on the entire 9 agency and will not be limited just to the reactor oversight 10 program areas.
11 Although the short-term focus is predominantly in l l
12 the reactor programs, it is important -- very important --
13 that we all understand that we will be assessing and 14 changing how we do buFiness throughout the NRC.
15 Today I would like to focus your thoughts briefly ;
16 on the importance of what I have called holding the center.
17 Let me emphasize at the outset that holding the 18 center does not -- I repeat -- does not mean adopting a 19 defensive posture or clinging to the past. What it does 20 mean is not losing sight of our primary health and safety 21 mission while enhancing our effectiveness by changing. It 22 means continuing to stay focused on that mission as we make 23 the transition from a traditional deterministic approach to 24 a more risk-informed and performance-based approach to 25 regulation.
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8 1 So how do we go about achieving change in a 2 responsible manner? I've discussed this with agency senior 3 managers, and today I offer some strategies for your. ,
4 consideration which are drawn in part from a presentation 5 made to the Commission by the Office of Research last month.
6 What was presented seemed to indicate that the presenters 7 "got it," at least as articulated at the meeting.
6 So what are these strategies? !
9 First, we need to be sure that we have articulated 10 clearly and correctly our vision, our goals, and our 11 requirements. l 12 We must use risk-informed thinking and techniquee 13 throughout the agency as a means of ensuring a proper safety 14 focus.
15 We must encourage a team concept within and among 16 offices, which means avoiding a stovepipe mentality, t 17 because, after all, we are one NRC with one mission.
18 We must encourage agency-wide thinking that places !
19 greater value on being proactive and being anticipatory, on 20 being outcomes or results oriented, on being timely and on l 21 being cost effective.
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22 We should use process mapping, which in its f 23 simplest form simply means thinking about how we do things 24 and the best way to do them, as a tool to establish ,
i 25 efficient functional relationships and to eliminate ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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! 1 duplication of effort.
1 2 We should build on our current strengths, which 3 primarily means our people but also our programs and 4 processes.
5 And we need, the Commission needs, both management i
6 and staff buy-in, and that in fact is why we are here today i
' 1 7 and that is why we have moved this meeting forward.
8 In addition to these overall higher level 9 strategies, we also should be using a series of what I have I i
10 referred to as implementing strategies. Let me give you {
11 some examples.
12 We should be developing reasonable thresholds for 13 decision-making in areas of potential and high risk or 14 safety significance. Reasonable thresholds.
15 We should be conducting continual self-assessment 16 and soliciting feedback from those we regulate and other 17 stakeholders.
18 We should be assessing -- and this is a hard one 19 -- whether our requirements achieve their intended purpose.
20 And here's another hard one. We should be 21 sunsetting activities when they are no longer relevant for 22 regulatory purposes.
23 These are examples of strategies for achieving 24 change in a manner that ensures that we are holding the 25 center, that is, identifying and preserving our core or l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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10 1 baseline requirements as we change to be more effective in 2 accomplishing our fundamental mission.
3 Let us take our reactor oversight processes as an .
4- example. As I have discussed with NRC senior management, we 5 should ask and answer a series of questions.
6 (1) Within a risk-informed framework, what is the 1
7 minimal level of inspection or assessment or licensing 8 oversight that will continue to give us confidence that 9 licensed facilities are being operated and maintained in a 10 safe manner?
11 (2) What processes and methods must we establish 12 to achieve a risk-informed baseline as effectively and 13 efficiently as possible?
14 (3) What core competencies and resources must we L 15 have.to implement those processes?
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16 (4) What measures are needed that will tell us .
( 17 when we have succeeded?
18 (5) How can all of this be achieved in the most 19 timely and most cost-effective manner possible.
20 It is important that we establish this framework 21' expediently and reasonably. To repeat, our objective is to 22 be more effective in accomplishing our public health and 23 safety mission. This is not to say anybody has done 24 anything_ wrong, .and that's the natural tendency, e i
25 particularly when there is a lot of outside focus. Nobody
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I 11 1~ has done anything wrong. Our objective is to be more 2 effective in accomplishing our public health and safety
- 3. mission by being risk informed, by being performance based, 4- that is, results oriented, and by being cost effective.
- 5. If we truly move to a program with these 6 characteristics, appropriate burden reduction in fact will 7 occur, both-for ourselves, but particularly for those we 8 regulate, because being risk informed means that there will 9 be burden reduction in areas of low risk just as it may 10 entail an increased focus in areas we previously may have 11 underemphasized. In the end, we will impose no more but no 12 less than what is required.
13 Before I close, I would like to offer all of you a 14' few watchwords of which to be, mindful as we continue to 15 improve. I call them the three C's. They are confidence, 16 courage and conviction.
17 We need to be confident that our new inspection, 18 assessment and enforcement programs provide-objective 19 criteria and consistent methodologies for providing 20 reasonable assurance of public health and safety, and that 21 they accomplish what they are designed to accomplish. We 22 can achieve this, as I've said, through being risk informed, 23 by' obtaining input from all of our stakeholders, and by 24 rigorously challenging the expected outcomes and potential
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25 weaknesses of all of the options that we consider.
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1 We need to have the courage and the discipline to 2 implement fully and consistently our new programs as they 3- are developed and formally adopted. We need to build an .
4 assessment function into each of the programs and processes 5- to allow early self-identification of performance results 1
l 6 that are not consistent with effective public health and l ,
l 7 safety regulation. We need to self-initiate course
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I I 8 corrections to our programs based on self-assessment before ,
9 our various stakeholders feel compelled to attempt to force l 10 a change on'us with the attendant potential for 1
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11 overreaction.
12 As the NRC, as the foremost nuclear regulatory l 13 body in the world, we should be leading change in response, 14- yes, to a changing external environment, and'because we have f 15- new tools and approaches to allow us to better define safety ,
16 and to implement our programs in new ways.
17 We need to have the conviction and the objective 18 evidence to argue the merits of our programs and policies 19 when challenged. We will be much mare effective at 20 resisting the pendulum effect and therefore in maintaining 21 regulatory stability if we are willing to change ourselves, s 22 and in changing, to defend the soundness and the !
.h 23' effectiveness of our programs as they evolve.
24 I believe I can speak for my colleagues when I say !
25- that the Commission encourages the staff to communicate r i
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13 1 directly with us when you have concerns. The Commission's 2 open door policy is always there. I would encourage you to 3 use that avenue if you have a public health and safety issue 4 to which you feel NRC management or the agency as a whole is j 5 not properly responding. But more broadly, as we are making 6 these changes in our various programs, we are open to your 7 suggestions for improvement.
8 In closing, I would like to disabuse you of the 9 view that some may have that we are jumping off the bridge 10 in reaction to criticism from the Congress or from other 11' stakeholders. We are doing what we need to do. We are i
12 finishing what we started.
, l 13 The changes we make will be made because they are l 14 the right things to do, all predicated on safety first and N
15 foremost, but we will be better and smarter in how we carry 16 out our mission. In fact, we should be excited and i
17- energized -- I really am -- in our belief that these changes i 18 will allow us to have an even better safety focus, to be 19 clearer in our expectations for our licensees and for i
'20 ourselves, to reduce burden where appropriate, to be 21 responsive to all of our stakeholders in a responsible way.
22 In its criticism the Congress has provided us with 23 a platform to accelerate our movement in a direction we know 24 we must go, a direction we ourselves already had decided we 25 needed to go.
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14 1 We talk a lot about risk, and I've sprinkled it 2 throughout my remarks. And about risk assessment. But 3 there is a different kind of risk we must assume. Let me ,
4 ask you, drawing on the watchwords, to keep in mind the 5 following thought about risk. This comes from a member of 6 my staff in fact.
7 You cannot discover new oceans unless you are
.8 willing to lose sight of the shore, but you do have to have 9 a compass. So please, stay focused on safety, have 10 confidence, continue to work hard, remain committed, 11 maintain your conviction, and above all, have the courage to 12 change, to help us as we move NRC into the next century.
13 This concludes my preliminary remarks, but before 14 taking questions, I would like to ask my Commission 15 colleagues to share their thoughts and insights with us, 16 especially in those areas that they feel very strongly 17 about. I would like to begin with my colleague Commissioner 18 Nils Diaz, and then he will be followed by Commissioner 19 Edward McGaffigan.
20 COMMISSIONER DIAZ: Thank you, Chairman Jack' son, 21 and good morning everyone. The only reason I can speak 3
22 right now is because I decided to take a risk-informed [
i 23 action and not read the paper I was given this morning on !
r 24 the things I cannot talk about, because if I would have read !
25 it, I would be mute at the present time. So I decided not f ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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15 1 to read it.
- 2 Let me become serious and tell you that I agree
, 3 with the directions that are implied and said by Chairman ;
4 Jackson's speech. I think this is a very important turning :
" 1 5 point in the agency. Chairman Jackson has elaborated on a i
6 series of very definite issues, and I agree with the l 7 direction that she has pressed.
8 I think before I make a few points I will take a 9 little your side and look at what is happening. I know that 10 we had a lot of external reviews. Those come in small 11 periods of time. They are intense.
12 The actual majority of the work is in the internal 13 reviews that have been going on. .I realize that those have 14 caused stress and they create work and the Commission is !
15 conscious of all the efforts that have been going on and how 16 much the staff has been doing in these internal reviews 17 besides the imposition of external reviews which, as I said, 18 sometimes are small in time and tend to disappear.
19 I have a few phrases that I tried to compose a few 20 moments ago. They go very simple, like this.
21 In reality, the only thing that we have to fear as 22 an agency is the fear to change, because if we really look 23 at it in a risk-informed fashion -- and I am very much for 24 proceeding to a risk-informed regulatory process -- I think l' 25 we can reach the conclusion that the only real large risk to ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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16 1 this agency right now is not to change. The change is as 2 necessary as any other aspect of our mission, that we are in 3 conditions that allow change to happen; that we have the .
4 know-how; that we have the tools, as Chairman Jackson said, 5 and that change has to occur. It has to be meaningful, and 6 in many cases it has to be rapid, especially in those areas 7 where we know how to do it.
8 I realize that risk information has not permeated 9 this agency throughout. I am asking you to relax and accept 10 it and take this step forward. Take a drink of 11 risk-informed regulation and let it go to work in your 12 system. You never know. You might enjoy it.
13 (Laughter.]
l 14 COMMISSIONER DIAZ: We have the expertise to l
15 change. It is here; it is available; it is functional; it 16 has to be put in' motion. No matter how much we say here, we 17 cannot do it. You are the ones that have to do it. So we 18 look to you, to che leadership in your own workplace, 19 whether you are a manager or not, to embrace the fact that 20 change is good and you may even like it.
21 I was looking at some of the things that we use as 22 phrases. We always hammer our licensees with the fact that 23 they have to have a questioning attitude. I always get a 24 little iffy about what questioning attitude means.
t 25 I don't think there is any doubt that the staff ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. l Court Reporters ,
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l 17 1 has a questioning attitude, and perhaps the Commission 2 suffers from the same illness or the same strength, whatever 3 it is. But there is something beyond that attitude that has 4 to coexist with it, and that is the attitude of solving
- ' 5 issues.
6 So it is not only'to have-the ability to question, l 7- the ability to reason, the ability to make sure that we are 8
in this envelope of safety that we call adequate protection, .
9 but to get into an attitude of solving things. This is 10: sometimes where we question our ability to really rapidly l 11 . move into solutions. I think what we are saying is that we i
12 are capable.of doing that. The Commission is firmly behind l 13 these changes, and we stand ready to work with you to make 14 them happen.
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! 15 Thank you.
J 16 COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: I was-sketching some l
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17 remarks because I thought the Chairman was going to ask me 18 to particularly focus on the congressional oversight 19 committee. So I scribbled some notes here. I will start j I
20 there and then I will make a couple other points.
21 The first point I will make is that the attention 22 from the Congress is not going to go away. This agency has 23 not had an authorization bill in 15 years. I'll be 1
l 24 surprised if we don't have an authorization bill next year.
25 Sometimes in the Congress, even though there are i
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18 i 1 535 members up there, one member can make an enormous 2 difference. Senator Domenici pretty much all on his own has
- 3. 'put us in the spotlight. He.is renowned as a tenacious ,
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4 member of Congress, and his chief staffers Alex Flint and ,
5 Dave Gwaltney are wonderful, capable people who are going to ;
i 6 keep asking us hard questions in the coming years.
7 More importantly, our authorizing committees are ;
8 going to ask us more questions in the future. I think that
- 9. is an opportunity. I think it's an opportunity to fix'a !
10 bunch of things in statute. Because we don't get ;
11 authorization bills passed, we never think proactively in ;
i 12 terms of, gosh, we've got this statute that is causing us !
- t 13 all sorts of problems. Why can't we get it fixed? !
14 One statute that comes to mind is antitrust l 15 reviews. =The Commission is united that we should get out of f
16 the antitrust review business, and'that is part of the
( 17 President's proposal on electric industry restructuring, j L 18 We have, for better or for worse, been involved in l r
19 Superfund legislation and high-level waste legislation.
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j 20 The Congress will challenge us in the new year as j L 21 to whether sections 189 and 193 of the Atomic Energy Act !
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22 need to be changed with regard to the flexibility of our l 23 hearing process and allow us to adopt more legislative style 24 hearings rather than the adjudicatory hearings that have l l I l
25 been the norm in this agency. ;
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- l 19 1 The foreign ownership issues that come up.that 2 perhaps should not have.to come up.
4 3 There is a whole host of issues.
4 11(e) (2) byproduct material. The adverb 5 "primarily." Congress beats us about the head and shoulders
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6 at times as we struggle with what the word "primarily" in 7 that definition of 11(e) (2) byproduct material means. It 8 would be nice at times -- and this has come up at Commission 9 meetings -- if the Congress would give us some 10 clarification. We have been reluctant to ask for the i 11 clarification because there has been no real mechanism, no 12 authorization bill to get it passed.
13 In the new Congress we are going to have new. l 14 members. There are several retirements in key 15 subcommittees. Mr. McDade is retiring, on our 16 appropriations committee on the House side. Mr. Schaefer is i
17 retiring on the subcommittee that oversees us on the House !
l 18 side. Mr. Bumpers on the Energy Committee. Although that 19 is not a primary committee of jurisdiction, it's a committee )
20 that is very interested in our work. There could be further 21 changes as a result of the election that is coming up 22 because several members who are important to us may well 23 face tough reelection campaigns.
, 24 The main point I want to give you with regard to i-25 the Congress is it's going to continue to ask us questions; l*
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20 1 it's going to continue to listen to other stakeholders, be 2 they the Nuclear Energy _ Institute, individual licensees, the 3 Union of Concerned Scientists, public citizen, whoever, and ,
4 we are going to have to be mugh more proactive and 5 interactive than probably has been the norm in the agency 6 over time.
7 Commenting more broadly, a couple of years ago 8 when I first sat up here one of the points that I made was 9 that, having been here two months, I sensed the difference 10 in the time constants of this agency and the time constants 11 of the industry and the external world.
12 The old model was you could have ponderous 13 utilities dealing with ponderous state utility commissions 14 and a ponderous NRC and everyone was happy, because if we 15 took forever, they could pass on all the costs anyway. I 16 did not think that was a viable way to interact going 17 forward.
18 At the moment there is a lot of emphasis on 19 timeliness, and I think the emphasis on timelinese in NRC 20 actions is going to only increase as an industry gets into a 21 competitive mode where time is money for them. So we are 22 going to have pressure to make decisions so that we don't 23 burn licensee money, and to get on with decisions.
24 We are creating at the moment extraordinary 25 processes in various areas. In license renewal we have an ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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21 1 extraordinary process. I. don't think anybody would call it 2 ordinary with Chris Grimes and Frank Miraglia and Sam 3 Collins providing a lot of oversight.
4 In dry cask storage, in order to get some of the 5 dual purpose canisters past rulemaking and certified, we are 1
6 creating extraordinary processes.
7 In AP600, which we are about to wrap up, at least !
8 over the last year there was an extraordinary process.
9 On improved standarQ tech spec conversions there 10 has been a lot of focus over the last year.
11 Yesterday at the Commission meeting we heard of an 12 extraordinary process being put in place to deal with 13 risk-informed licensing actions.
14 I think the challenge as we go forward is to make 15 the extraordinary the ordinary and to embed it into our 16 processes in a way that is honorable. I honestly think we i
17 can make these decisions. This is based on my own 18 experience in government for 20-odd years. ;
19 You can make these decisions promptly and well, i 20 and the extra time working the asymptotes, a term that I've 21 adopted -- it wasn't my original term; I used the term 22 " working the nth order terms of the equation" -- but working '
23 the asymptotes doesn't really get you that much at times.
24 It just gets you a bunch of questions as to why we are being 25 delaying and overly conservative.
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22 1 We have to go forward. We have to change. That >
L 2 has been the theme this morning. We had some of the changes 3 under way. We had' recognized some of it, and I think we ,
4 have more change to do.
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5 We have a very good document from the staff that I ;
6 believe was distributed last week that outlines what the -
7 senior staff's initial thoughts are with regard to the 8 immediate challenges before us. I guess I will conclude by s 9 saying I hope some of you have read it. You've certainly 3 10 seen the stakeholder meeting and the congressional hearing 11 transcript. We look forward to your comments on whether we 12 are on the right track in all of these short-term and longer 13 term actions that we are about. ,
14 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: We stand ready to address any ,
15 and all questions within the parameters that Mrs. Norry has 16 outlined. I think what we would like to do is to try to !
17 interleave the questions that were submitted ahead of time 18 with spontaneous questions from those of you present here in 19 the tent as well as by our various technological hookups.
20 We are ready for the first question.
21 QUESTION: This is a comment I submit to the ;
22 Commission. One of the challenges facing us is whether we !
l 23 as an agency can do our job with less resources. I believe 24 we can do a good job, perhaps even better job with less i 25 resources if we fundamentally
- change the work processes at '
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23 1 this agency.
2 It is widely recognized by the staff that work 3 products take a long time to get out in this agency. In 4 1994 several of my colleagues and myself felt encouraged by 5 the pronouncements made by the Administration for 6 streamlining work processes at agencies and empowering 7 frontline workers. Several of us provided suggestions in 8 the 1994 reorganization to adopt these changes.
9 Little changed then or has changed at'the NRC 1 10 since that time. So I look at this initiative as another l
11 that will come and go by, and after all is done, not much '
12 will have changed for me.
13 I suggest to the Commission that this time it 14 should really look at fundamentally changing the work 15 processes at this agency. This will require going beyond 16 meeting mandatory constraints such as the staff to 17 supervisor ratio. It will mean determining and addressing 18 the obstacles to getting work done efficiently at the agency 19 and how one can boost the morale and responsibilities of 20 frontline workers with the goal of increasing the efficiency 21 of the agency.
22 Thank you for your attention.
23 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Thank you. That was a comment 24 and not a question, but I will make a few comments to that.
25 The issue of empowering people is always an l
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24 1 interesting one. I think that the ponderousness of 2 processes in a regulatory agency always relate to being a 3 regulator, and people are risk averse. 'A.s I said-in my .
4 opening remarks, we need to be braver about thinking through 5 and implementing new strategies for accomplishing what we 6 do, and I have in fact challenged the EC to address this
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7 issue.
8 Commissioner McGaffigan talked about the
- 9 extraordinary efforts that have been created in a number of 10 specific initiative areas and that what he would like to see 11 is for the extraordinary to become the ordinary. ;
12 I talked about process mapping. That has ;
13 different meanings to different people, but in the simplest ;
L l 14 terms it means thinking about the best way to organize work, 15 to empower people, to have people as the point of contact, 16 but to hold them accountable. That is something that we are t i
17 very focused on. To what degree we will satisfy some of !
18 your historical frustrations is hard to predict, but we are 19 certainly very committed to trying to address that kind of 1
l 20 issue.
21 Is there another question, please?
22 MR. STEIN: Yes, Chairman, Commissioners. My name j 23 is Mike Stein. I'm with NTEU; also the Office of 24 Enforcement. Change is important. All organizations 25' change, continually change. It's vital. It's a matter of ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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25 1- life. Organisms change was well. What I didn't hear from 2 you, though -- I heard rapid change. I didn't hear you mean 3 change. What I mean by that is change can be an avalanche.
4 It can wipe out EEO. It can destroy careers. It's 1
5 imperative that in any change the human aspect of the change 6 needs to.be taken into account. My question is, how are you 1
7 going to be addressing the human factors to the change that 8 you are contemplating?
l 9 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: As you know, I'm not going to 10 talk about specific work conditions and that kind of thing.
11 I think the human part of all of this is the heart of what 12 we are about. You've heard me talk about the fact that when 13 we change, we have to change in a responsible manner, and 14 changing in a responsible manner of course relative to our 15 mission means staying focused on safety.
16 Changing in a responsible manner also means being 17 mindful of the fact that the agency is not just bricks and 18 mortar; it is in fact people. We are well aware of that.
19 Nonetheless, there are any number of decisions 20 that we are going to have to make that will require people 21 to let go of some of their old shibboleths about exactly how 22 things can and should be done, but in terms of our core 23 values, I certainly intend, and I believe the Commission 24 intends, for the agency to hold to those, but holding to 25 core values cannot be an excuse to maintain the status quo.
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26 l 1 COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: I just might add that 2 the employees of this agency really are blessed with the ;
3 senior career people at the top. Joe Callan and Pat Norry 4 and Paul Bird and folks like that are always bringing the ,
5 human dimension to the Commission's attention.
6 I think it's fair to say, because it's public 7 information, the Commission itself, recognizing that change 8 is not going to be easy and that careers may well be 9 disrupted and there will be reorganizations and that sort of -
10 thing, we did ask for buyout authority as part of the appeal >
11 to the appropriations committee last month. So we are going 12 to try to be as fair to the people of the agency as we go i 13 about this change as is possible within the federal family.
14 Your leadership constantly brings the human dimension to our 15 attention.
I 16 . COMMISSIONER DIAZ: I would like to add that we 17 are conscious of that human dimension, that we do consider I 18 it. Bringing it up is a good thing because it reminds us 19 that there are particular differences between the staff and i
20 different needs. We are trying to get attune to the 21 different needs. We believe that, like everybody ha's said, 22 it is the people in here who are our engine. It is the care 1 23 that we keep in maintaining thr* engine that will actually 24 allow us to make the changes we will need to make.
25 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Thank you.
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i 27 1 Next question.
2 QUESTION: I have a question that was submitted in l i
l 3 advance. Many staff members are concerned about the l
4 apparent inability of the Commissioners to work together '
5 effectively. Please address this concern as candidly as l 6 possible.
7 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Thank you. I'm actually glad {
l 8 that question came up because I think it,gives us a chance !
9 .to clear the air on a number of issues.
10 Let me preface what I have to say with the i 11 following. You know when the NRC was first created, and 12 even before then the AEC, a fundamental value that has been 13 held and a reason that we are always looking to have the 14 full Commission is that a Commission format is important in 15 the business we are in.
16 Why is that Commission format important? It's 17 important because of the opportunity to have a diversity of 18 opinion come to bear on the issues that the agency has to l 19 address. So you cannot then say that diversity of opinion 20 is important and then expect when you bring together a group l 21 of talented -- I'll speak for them --committed and focused 22 individuals that you have mental clones. So yes, the L 23 Commission and the Commissioners will disagree on any number 24 of things, but in the end we are a Commission, and we do 25 resolve our differences.
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28 1- I'm sure all of you can't wait, and most people i
E .can't, this being Washington, for the Monday morning papers, 2
3 particularly-the trenc press. I'm not going to speak to you .
4 relative to.what I feel is the veracity or lack thereof of 5 what is in there, but in the end the important thing is that 6 I think all of us operate in good will, and we can have i 7 disagreements. However difficult they are, I think all of 8 us are committed to working together and in point of fact, I 9 think our record in terms of the important programs of this 10 agency is outstanding, particularly in terms of a Commission 11 that is united in terms of where this agency fundamentally 12 needs to go. .
13 I think my Commissioner colleagues should speak 14 for themselves in this regard. I'm quite satisfied with the 15 way we operate, but diversity of opinion is what makes us 16 strong.
'17 ; COMMISSIONER DIAZ: It is a very good question. I ,
18 know people keep coming around and asking about it. Let me 19 just say that there is no doubt that we have had serious
- 20. difficulties in the past two years to address some issues 21 and to reach some conclusions. For my part, I am a forward 22 looking person. I think that we have made significant ,
23 progress in establishing how we work together as a 24 Commission.
25 That doesn't mean that we are not going to f
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29 1- disagree, but the key issue is that in the direction in 2 which we are going, in the major issues, in how we address 3 the work, the processes, the staff, the human dimension, we 4 have a collegial decision that has been reached in most of 5 those issues, which we all support.
6 If you start going back and looking at things, you l 1
7 can go on forever. It serves no purpose. We had 8 differences of opinion. I admit that we had differences of 9 opinion. I think the point is that on the important issues 10 we are now converging and converging rapidly, and that is in !
11 the best interest of the agency, and I believe we are all
, 12 committed to continue to do that.
13 COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: I might just turn the I 14 question almost on its head. I think part of working L
l 15 together effectively is to disagree occasionally. Obviously
]
16 the staff has some pretty roaring debates that are 17- oftentimes invisible to us. I understand on the integrated 18 review assessment process, IRAP, there were some pretty 19 roaring debates, and it turned out the Commission repeated 20 those debates, but I don't think it's fair for you all to .
21 say you can debate and we can't.
22 I also agree with Commissioner Diaz. What is 23 going to get written up in Inside NRC, Nucleonics Week, et 24 cetera, are the two-one votes; the three-zero votes get 25 short play towards the end of it.
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30 l' There is a remarkable amount of stuff that we have 2 been united on, very important things: the Superfund 3 legislation, the need in decommissioning to get rid of dual ,
4 regulation, Part 35 rulemaking, high-level waste 5 legislation, license renewal. There is a whole host of very 6- important issues that we agree on. There is the occasional 7 shutdown rule vote -- I think that one was two-two -- where 8 the Commission doesn't come to agreement, but that is the 9 nature of a commission. .
10 I am totally used to having debates because I come 11- out of the Congress. Occasionally the Armed Services 12 Committee reports the defense bill 20 to nothing, but more l .
13 typically it reports the defense bill 11 to 9. Most of the 14 issues are 20 to nothing, but the SDI program or the 15 Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty or fundamental issues 16 sometimes have to be fought out.
17- I think part of being an effective Commission and 4 18 working effectively together is to debate the issues just as 19 the staff debates the issues. Out of that will come a 20 better process. ,
21 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: One last comment from me. Let
- 22 me give you some insight into how I am. From time to time I 23 get calls from reporters, but they don't call me so much,
! 24 because I'm not focusing on what the count is and where the
- 25 fissures are, because in the end we have a collegial '
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31 1 decision-making process. My analogy is to the Supreme 2 Court. The Supreme Court can make a toling that is nine to 3 zero, seven to two, or five to four, but in the end that 4 decision is the law of the land.
5 So I'm clear, and I have a responsibility as 6 Chairman to see that the staff carries out Commission 7 policy, whatever that is. That is true whether I'm on the 8 three side of a three-two vote or the two side or a 9 three-two vote, because I believe in the process, and the l
10 process, as the Commissioners have said, works. 1 11 In the end, we in the end influence each others 12 points of view anyway even if the votes are allegedly 13 three-two, two-one, and so the product that you get really 14 is from a collegial decision-making process, and I am 15 committed to seeing to it that the agency carries out the 1
16 staff's policy. I think you should be proud of the 17 Commissicn and proud of yourselves. What we need to do, as le Commissioner Diaz has said, is to look forward and not spend 19 time looking back, because we certainly are looking forward.
20 We are ready for the next question.
21 QUESTION: A couple of years ago, Chairman 22 Jackson, when we were having a different budget problem, you 23 said that, well, you would look at what Congress gave us and 24 go on and prioritize our programs and everything and tell 25 them, this is what we can do with what you gave us, and if l l
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32 i 1 you want us to do all these other things, you need to l 2 provide us further resources. I wanted to know if this was i j
- 3. still your attitude, those of you on the Commission, or ,
4 whether things have changed.
4 5 Thank you. ,
6 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: My point of view is this. The 7 point of prioritizing is to be clear on what we think is
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i
- 8. core. At the same time, if we become better -- and we are 9 becoming better both at how we organize our work as well as 10 in how we plan -- then we find that honestly there are some 11 things that can go off of the plate.
! ~ 12 It is also true that we have to have a certain l
! 13 baseline funding in order to carry out our jobs, and the l
L 14 Commission is committed to fighting to ensure that we have 15 the resources that we need. But that is a separate 16 statement than the issue of whether we can in fact 17 streamline what we do, be more cost effective in how we do 18 things, that we.can make use of the investment in certain
! lL9 tools that are under development, such as ADAMS or STARFIRE,
>20 as well as process improvements that others have in fact 21 spoken to, to be smarter in how we do things.
22 Fundamentally, being risk informed from the point 23 of view of the thrust of our regulatory programs allows us 24 to prioritize in a way where we don't lose sight of what is
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25 fundamental, and that is what we are here to do and to ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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l 33 1 preserve and to fight for. But that is different than {
2 saying that the way that we have done things in the past or I 3 the status quo is what has to happen. !
4 My last comment'is that in the end -- and 5 Commissioner McGaffigan has spoken to this -- we have to be 6
realistic about what the situation is that our licensees 7.
face as well as the situation that we face in terms of 8 expectations of us from the Congress. We are. operating in a 9 multivariable situation. One optimizes, and that is 10 precisely what we are doing. {
11 ' Commissioner Diaz.
12 COMMISSIONER DIAZ: Eventually what we want to do l
13 is increase the credibility of not only our processes but l L
14 our budget in a manner that when the interaction takes place 15 with Congress, if it does, there will not be significant 16 gaps. That is part of what is happening right now. We are
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l 17 increasing the credibility and efficiency of our processes 18 so that significant gaps in the way that we actually work 19 are not large.
20 COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: I have very little to 21 add. It's a good question. We are clearly going to end up 22 in the coming year with about $17 million less than we L 23 requested. We are going to absorb the pay raise, as all 24 agencies are. Hopefully it's' going to De 3.6 rather than
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! 25 3.1 percent. Hopefully for you; it won't affect us. But 4
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9 34 1 that will mean another $1 million that has to be absorbed.
2 We are going to end up doing less. Some of the l
3 areas we are going to end up doing less in is inspection. .
l 4 We are going to do less inspecting next year than we have 5 this year. We are probably going to devote less resources 6 .to assessment next year than we did this year. We now think 7 that can be done and it makes sense, and the senior managers 8 are telling us it can.be done 9 There are some places we are going to do more. We c 10 are going to probably ask you to process more licensing 11 actions next year than you did this year.
12 As I said earlier, we are going to ask the Spent 13 Fuel Projects Office ~ to get more done in the way of getting 14 dual purpose canisters across the finish line.
15 One-thing we had better darn well do is keep to 16 the 585 day schedule for the Oconee and Calvert Cliffs 17 reviews for the SER and the EIS. That is an historically 18 difficult thing for this agency to do.
19 We have successes. The AP600. We are there in 20 .getting AP600 across the finish line. That took an 21 extraordinary effort of the staff, and we appreciate that.
22 I think we can get what we need done with the 23 resources we are going to be provided next year, but it is 24 going to be tough, and there are some things that we are not 25 going to get to. We agonize at times over those in a budget ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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35 1 process that maybe is invisible to many of you, but we do 2 try to do the right thing in allocating the resources that 3 we have remaining to meet the priorities that we see.
4 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Let me make a couple more 5 comments. I'm going to be straightforward with you. I 6- think it is very important so that there is the least 7 confusion as possible.
8 You hear us talk about what to some people may 9 sound like buzzwords, being risk informed. At the same 10 time, we've pressed very hard and I've worked many hours 11 with the senior managers on putting into place a new 12 infrastructure for planning and budgeting and measuring the 13 results of what we do, and to try to be outcomes oriented.
14 When you have your day-to-day job doing technical reviews or 15 licensing actions or inspecting or typing manuscripts, 16 whatever your job is, this sounds like so much poppycock.
17 Commissioner McGaffigan ran through a list of l 18 things, and that is part of the tasking memo that I sent. to 19 the staff and the response from Mr. Callan. There are any
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20 number of specific things that we are going to do and do
- 21 within an accelerated time frame, giving more emphasis to 22 certain things and less emphasis to others.
23 But in the end, I feel that the greatest thing I 24 can do for NRC is to ensure that the right legacy is left 25 behind, and that legacy has to do with having the right a
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,c , . -
36 1 people in place, the right managers for doing the various 2 critical elements of our mission, that we have the right
- 3. staff, that people are oriented the right way. ,
4 A big part of that is to have the right kinds of 5 tools and ways of doing things that allow us to deal with 6 whatever we have to deal with, to deal with contingencies as 7 they arise, to deal with emergent issues or activities as 8 they arise, to adjust to budget vicissitudes as they arise, 9 because all of these things are part of the reality of life.
10 They are part of the reality of life whatever sector of the 11 economy one works in, and increasingly it has become part of 12 the reality of life here.
- 13 If we are going to be able to respond, to make l
14 adjustments to deal with contingencies that arise, we have 15 to be clear on what is core, what is fundamental. That is 16 why we are talking about becoming more risk informed. And 17 we have to make adjustments as they come, because if we i
18 don't, then we tend to get overwhelmed and we are not able 19 to make whatever justifications we need to make for what we 20 do.
21 Early on, when I was first here at NRC as Chairman 22 the first budget that I had to deal with was not a budget 23 that I had anything to do with putting together, and the 24 Congress came along with a $52 million cut in our budget, 25 heavily because we had a certain amount of carryover money ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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. i 37 1 that was just hanging out there as kind of an obvious 2- target.
So there was this discussion of writing a reclame
, 3.
l s
4- . letter, which is the way you write back and say to the !
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5 appropriators, oh no, please don't cut this money.
6 I would say, well, where is the line in the sand?
7- Where is the health and safety line in the sand such that I 8 know and I can say credibly that if we go below this we 9- can't do our jobs? i 1
~10 I will tell you honestly there was too much 11 squirming around in the seats when I would ask that 12 ' question. So what we have been doing relentlessly since 13- that time is establishing what that credible line in the 14 sand is both from the point of view of what is core to our 15 mission'and what is core to our ability to carry out that 16- . mission, because that is the way you go forward. I will 17 stand up and take whatever bullets I have to take with or I 18 without a flak vest to defend that. But we have to be clear 19 on what that core is and what it takes to carry it out.
t.
20' That also allows us to be clear on what the cost 21 of new-investments are to allow us to either deal with 22 specific initiatives or fundamental. investments, to allow us
-23 to do our jobs in a smarter, more efficient, more focused 24 way. And I will fight equally for that, but it requires a l~ 25 knowledge and a confidence that we are clear about what is
- ;\
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38 j 1 fundamental, about what it takes to do what is fundamental, 2 'and that we are. clear about what the resources are that are
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3 required. That is where we are. ,
4 Is there another question?
5 QUESTION: Chairman Jackson, while it is :
6 commendable'that the Commission is seeking staff (
t 7 participation on these subjects, the all-hands meeting does >
8 not really provide a forum that is conducive to getting 9 input from the staff. Perhaps after listening to these
' :U3 - presentations by the Commissioners an e-mail address could 11 be created where the staff could provide their input on ;
12 topics germane to the discussion. -
13 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: You heard me in my remarks 14 indicate that the Commission is open to hearing from the !
15' staff both if you have concerns relative to safety issues a ,
16 la the open door policy or if you have suggestions to make {
17 to us. I think we are all reachable through the normal .
18 e-mail process, but if not, we can look into ensuring that 19 that avenue exists. +
20 At the same time, as some of you may know because 21 you may have met with me, I've been having Chairman / staff 22 dialogues'in order to have more face-to-face meetings with ;
23 smaller groups of employees in order to hear directly from 24 you, and my intent in fact is to accelerate and to try to pack more of those into what admittedly is an already packed 25 ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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39 1 schedule.
2 Beyond that, the menior managers following this 3 meeting -- and it's not again a special mechanism; it's 4 beginning that way -- I've asked them to inculcate this as 5 part of their everyday way of doing business, but they on 6 their own have developed a communications plan to in fact go 7 out and talk with and hear from NRC staff beginning with the 8 senior managers talking to the managers who report to and 9 work with them, and so on.
- 10 Beyond that, Mr. Callan tells me that his style in 11 fact is one where he prefers to be able to walk around and 12 deal more directly with all of the employees. His intent is 13 to do that, and I think we at the Commission are going to 14 have to exercise some discipline to free up more of his time 15 so that he can do that.
16 I think we will be sure that the communication
- 17. channels exist for the direct communications with the 18 Commission. As I say, I intend to accelerate the 19 Chairman / staff dialogues, because we do want to hear from 20 you in terms of recommendations. They will be fed back into 21 the process; we will consider all of those suggestions.
22 If there are thousands, you may not hear direct 23 responses, but we will be considering whatever 24 recommendations and suggestions people have to offer, and 25 they will inform our own thinking as well in terms of our ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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- 40 L 1 decision-making, as well as providing an opportunity to give 2 direction to the staff. ,
3 COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: I just might point out ,
4 that we recognized in the Chairman's original announcement 5 of this meeting that this is not the ideal forum for many 6 folks. If there any suggestions that any of you have as to 7 how to get a process working other than our e-mail 8 addresses, which are, as the Chairman said, widely known, or 9 coming to our offices, I would be open to it. I think the 10 whole Commission would be open to any useful suggestion.
11 I think debate within the staff is good. The one 12 frustration Commissioners sometimes have -- I think this 13 includes the Chairman -- is we don't have a lot of 14 visibility into that roaring debate that sometimes occurs 15 within the staff.
16 All staff recommendations do not have to be 17 consensus staff recommendations. I think the Commission as 18 a whole complimented NMSS on a paper recently with regard to 19 cleanup standards for uranium recovery facilities, uranium 20 in situ facilities, because there was a staffer who laid out 21 a different perspective. We ended up not agreeing with him, g
22 but he did bring to the fore a bunch of points that were 23 very valuable with regard to the way some of these models 24 can be manipulated to bring about the result you want.
25 One thing I would urge is that if there are ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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41 1 minority views on the staff, let's hear them. Occasionally 2 the Commission may agree with the minority and not with the
, 3 majority. We've done that already on occasion.
4 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: More questions.
5 QUESTION: Chairman Jackson, could you address why 6 the agency needs ADAMS-and STARFIRE?
i 7 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: ADAMS and STARFIRE are two 8 examples of what I call fundamental infrastructure 9 investments that the agency needs to muka in order to be 10 able to work smarter, work in a more cc.St-offective way, and 11 to work faster.
12 STARFIRE provides us with an opportunity to have
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13 an agency-wide resource management system that can save us 14 time, that allows for consistency in terms of how budgeting 15 is done.
16 You may not know that part of our budget process 17 is done by hand essentially, and in this day and time there 18 is no excuse for that. It allows us to integrate personnel 19 as well as financial data, and it's gof.ng to be a 20 fundamental tool in our ability to carry out and refine the 21 planning framework that has been under development, 22 including the development and use of operating plans.
23 ADAMS in a certain sense should almost speak for 24 itself. We are a very paper-intensive agency. Sitting at 25 the Commission, one can see the effect of that. There is ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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42 1 one document we get and then one may ask for some 2 information that essentially overlaps with or contains much 3 of what we got before and is yet another new document. So .
4 this allows an ability to have full text retrieval 5 capabilities, electronic storage, to allow individual and 6 group development'of documents, et cetera.
7 It's a fundamental enabling infrastructural 8 investment. It will allow us to do better recordkeeping, et 9 cetera, and it should allow for more consistency in terms of 10 what databases we operate from, what information everybody 11 has, so that we are all literally reading from the same 12 page. An electronic page in this instance, but we are all 13 reading from the same page.
14 That is the virtue. It is the fundamental 15 architecture for this agency in terms of how it handles 16 documents.
17 COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: I might also add that I 18 think this agency in STARFIRE and ADAMS is at the forefront 19 'of trying to use commercial, off-the-shelf technology.
20 That's a fancy word, but that means we are really just 21 trying to take stuff that is already being used successfully 22 elsewhere, including in the private sector or similar 23 models, and build it into our-processes, We are trying to 24- keep abreast of these fundamental infrastructural 25 information technologies. Although we are not pushing the ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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43 1 state of the art, we are trying to buy commercial, 2 off-the-shelf systems that will help us function.
3 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Another critical virtue built 4 into all of this is the fact that as part of our process, 5 the CPIC process, for how this kind of architecture is 6 developed and the technology is deployed is in fact a 7 built-in requirement that forces us to examine our 8 processes, that is, how we do things, and to optimize those 9 and to be clear about what the requirements are for the use 10 of new systems up front.
11 That again is part of all of where we want to go 12 in terms of sharpening how we go about doing our business 13 and being more efficient. It is not just the technology 14 itself, but it is the whole way that it is developed and 15 deployed, and we hope that over time that will in fact have 16 a beneficial effect in terms of overall thinking.
17 I talked about process mapping as part of my 18 remarks about thinking about how we do things and think of 19 the best ways to accomplish the task. That has many 20 tentacles, but a fundamental one is one having to do with 21 how the work is organized, and that all plays into all of 22 this.
23 Yes.
24 QUESTION: Madam Chairman, members of the 25 Commission, could you comment briefly on what we may need to l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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44 1 do to develop further skills in the analytical field and 2 further empirical information as a basis for effective ,
3 risk-informed regulation? .
4 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Could you repeat the question.
5 I didn't hear the first part of it.
6 QUESTION: Whether we need to develop further 7 analytical skills and' empirical information as a basis for 8 effective risk-informed regulstion, 9 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: The answer is yes. I'm going ;
10 to let my colleague Dr. Diaz speak to some of this and then 11 I'll make a few remarks.
-12 COMMISSIONER DIAZ: .It is obvious that we are in a l 13 technical agency that has developed a series of skills in
! 14 many areas. Even those skills are now being reanalyzed. We
. :05 have realized that in thermal hydraulics we actually need to 16 do things. differently. The fact that we are a technical 17 agency requires skills grading all the time. ,
l 18 I think what your question refers to is, can we l
19 culturally address the issue of risk information as a part ,
20 of-our technical know-how? I think we are doing some' things 21 in that respect, training, and so forth. I'm not cohvinced II 22_ that we are doing enough,_but what I think the Commission .
- 23. has been saying is we need to,get.the feedback from that 24 area; we need to see how we need to effect better training. ;
25 I am a firm believer that we need to become much l ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD. i Court Reporters l 1025 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 1014 Washington, D.C. 20036 ;
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45 1 more cognizant, which is a Navy word, for becoming 2 technically risk informed. There is a difference between
, , 3 just having a policy of risk informed and being technically 4 risk informed. We need to have a core of substantially ,
5 risk-informed technicians that can practice not only the 6 PRA, but the application of risk information.
7 COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: We just had a briefing 8 yesterday in the Commission about the PRA implementation 9 plan. Obviously many people are getting some exposure to 10 PRA and how it may affect their lives. Probabilistic risk 11 assessment.
12 We also are developing empirical information.
13 AEOD has several outstanding recent studies that are going 14- to help us on the path to risk informing some of our 15 processes, bringing real analytical data into our processes.
16 The answer is yes, we are doing it. There 17 probably is more we could do, and we are open to 18 suggestions.
19 COMMISSIONER DIAZ: Something just occurred to me.
20 It is something that many of you will be able to relate to.
21 This decision of being risk informed is not too different 22 from the decision that a reactor operator has to make some 23 time on going critical. People think that criticality is 24 something that happens. The reality is that we don't want 25 criticality to happen just because it happens. We want ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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46 1 criticality to be achieved by a conscious, determined 2 programmatic decision.
- 3. You would be surprised that when a decision is ,
4 made we are very little time at criticality. We always pass 5 by it and go supercritical, which maybe is what we want to 6 increase power, or we might try to go critical and still 7 remain subcritical.
8 Becoming risk informed is not too different.
9 There has to be a decision made that we are going to do 10 that. We are going to sometimes go supercritical; sometimes 11- we are going to go subcritical. The bottom line is that it 12 has to be a programmed conscious decision to become risk 13 informed, and that implies that we have to have the skills 14 to be able to do it.
i-15 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: My basic overall answer to the 16 question is that the first thing that has to happen, which I 17 think both Commissioners have spoken to, is there has to be 18 essentially a culture change, a change in mind-set about 19 being risk informed. We have to recognize that there are 20 various risk assessment methodologies that exist in v ariable 21 degrees of sophistication and development, but they de exist l
22 to allow us to quantify risk 6r to evaluate relative risk 23 associated with various activities and various aspects of 24 activities that we license and regulate that allow us to
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l 47 l 1 about where the greatest risks are, how significant they are l 2 from the point of view of public health and safety.
3 Having understood that, we then have to put more 4 effort and thought into how to use such methodologies, both the quantitative as well as qualita':ive ones, and how to 5
6 incorporate them and use them to migrate our regulatory !
7 framework. That takes training, but it takes a conscious 8 decision to make use of them and to deploy them in our ,
l 9 regulatory framework.
10 I would just make a last comment, and that is, 11 being risk informed does not just mean being PRA informed.
12 It has different subtleties as well as some differences in 13 methodology, depending upon what aspect of our regulatory 14 framework we are talking about.
15 It could be as simple as being organized in how we 16 go through and think about risk, and it doesn't mean 17 necessarily doing a sophisticated PRA calculation but just 18 being very structured and organized in going through the 19 issue of looking at relative risk and where the risk is 20 greatest.
21 COMMISSIONER DIAZ: In case I missed the bottom 22 line of the question, I believe the Commission realizes that 23 we have to make an investment in personnel in becoming more 24 risk informed. I think that is obvious.
25 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Exactly.
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48 1 Is there another question?
2 QUESTION: This question deals with the supervisor 3 to employee ratio. Why not reduce the number of management ,
4 instead of the number of direct staff to get the workforce 5 to the one to eight supervisor to employee ratio?
6 As recommended in the Tim Martin study for 7 Congress, the deputy directors and other positions could be 8 eliminated, and this would allow more inspectors and other 9 workers to keep their jobs. The branch chiefs would fill in 10 for the directors when they are not available. This would 11 also result in the ability to keep more level 15 positions, 12 which are becoming rarer, and better ability of lower grades 13 to move up the ranks. Although this idea is painful to the 14 SES personnel who will make the decisions, it follows more 15 closely with the initiatives implemented by industry and 16 cutting edge government agencies who are trying to empower 17 employees and streamline work procerses.
18 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Would you read the first part 19 of your question again?
20 QUESTION: Don't shoot the messenger, please.
21 [ Laughter.]
l 22 QUESTION: Why not reduce the number of management l
23 instead of the number of direct staff to get the workforce 24 to the one to eight supervisor to employee ratio?
25 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: That's right. That's what ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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l 49 1 we're doing. Thank you.
- 2. QUESTION: Thank you.
- 3. [ Laughter.]
4 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Is there another question?
5 From the regions, hello out there.
6 QUESTION: This is a question from Region III.
7 The following was printed in a newspaper last week:
8 Hutchison Island, Florida. NRC officials said at ;
1 9 a meeting last week with Florida Power and Light officials '
10 that the agency is ending its systematic assessment of 11 licensee performance program at the direction of Congress.
12 The occasion was a meeting to discuss the latest SALP report 13 which gave the St. Lucie plant ratings of superior in two 14 areas and good in the other two rated.
15 Question: Is SALP ending? When will it end?
16 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: The situation is the following.
17 As part of the response to the tasking memo a recommendation 18 has been made that we temporarily suspend SALP, both from 19 the point of view or a prioritization of various activities 20 and initiatives and the efforts it takes, and the Commission 1 21 is considering that.
22 More broadly, what happens to SALP is going to be 23 derived from what comes out of the review of the reactor l 24 assessment process, because in the end that will determine 25 what our regulatory program is going to be and how we are ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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50 j.
1 going to do reactor oversight.
2 All I am really saying is any decision in terms of 3 a permanent cessation of SALP is going to rest with what the ,
4 ultimate recommendations are and the Commission decision 5 relative to what the fundamental reactor oversight program 6 is going to look like.
7 QUESTION: A question from Region IV. Please 8 provide any insight on the status of nominations of a full 9 Commission.
10 CHkIRMAN JACKSON: As you know, Greta Dicus, 11 former Commissioner at the moment, has been nominated by the 12 President to serve another term on the Commission. At the 13- same time, the Republican leadership in the Congress and the 14 White House are working through a possible nominee or f- 15 nominees to the Commission and vetting such candidates.
l 16 When that is done, the expectation is that the two 17 nominations will come-through together.
18 QUESTION: This is tough question-for Commissioner
'19 McGaffigan, so I would like to remain anonymous.
1 20 [ Laughter.]
- 21 QUESTION: In your recent testimony to Congress, 22 Commissioner, you stated what makes this agency strong is 23 .the openness. The Commission recently directed the staff to 24 proceed with rulemaking on potassium iodine. In that SRM 25 the Commission also directed the staff to issue for public i
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51 1 comment.its technical assessment of the use of KI, which was 2 included in the Commission package. The staff followed the 3 direction given in the SRM to the letter. Two weeks ago you 4 were quoted in Inside NRC to have said that that technical 5 report should be withdrawn. This came as a surprise to the 6 staff.
7 Would the Commissioner care to comment on this 8 change to your position not reflected in the SRM and whether 9 the Commissioner has confidence in the staff to pursue 10 clarification directly with the staff rather than through 11 less direct but "open" means such as Inside NRC?
12 COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: I'll address that very l 13 directly. I think it is fair to say that the staff did what 14 the Commission told it to do.' Would I vote to do that 15 today, having read that paper, which I had not done? No.
16 The paper, as one staffer who came to my office 17 under the open door policy pointed out to me, was not 18 drafted to be supportive of the policy that the Commission 19 decided on at the end of June. I did not focus at the end i
20 of June.
I 21 We have this tendency around here. . hereby 22 announce that I will not ask my colleagues in June of 2000
- 23 when my term is scheduled to end to rush a bunch of votes.
24 We tend to do that around here, and we regret it. When 25 Commissioner Rogers left we m&de a couple mistakes which we 4
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52 1 fixed.
2 I regard the June 26th SRM as a mistake with 3 regard to the publishing of that report, which I will admit ,
4 I had not read; if you have read all of our votes, the full 5 voting record, a mistake with regard to the one sentence in 6 there describing what we wanted'done in the way of fixing 7 the Federal Register notice. I am hoping to vote today to i .
8' give you what I think the Federal Register notice should 9 read like,.and it is consistent with my vote, with 10 Commissioner Dicus' vote, Commissioner Diaz', and the 11 Chairman's.
12 I think in that case what I said to the person who 13 came to my office is if there is a disconnect between the 14 votes and the SRM, there has got to be some mechanism where 15 you come back to us and say, do you really mean this? I 16 don't know what that mechanism is.
17 SRMs have lives around here and it's appropriate; 18 it's the Commission mechanism for talking with you; but I 19 have SRMs from 1980s and 19908 at times thrown at me when I 20 advocate, well, why can't we have a more open dialogue with 21 stakeholders on pre-decisional papers, and clearly the 22 Commission in the past -- AP600 is a good example Frank 23 Miraglia pointed out to me -- has said on the new advanced 24 reactors don't come to us at every milestone and don't 25 share. Commissions in the past give a bunch of guidance.
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1 53 1 The specific answer to your question on KI. I was 2 asked a direct question by a reporter. I tend to answer 3 direct questions. Because of other things the last couple j i'
4 weeks, budget and other papers that I've had to vote on, I 5 have not finished my KI vote, but the vote will say that the 6 Federal Register notice that was submitted to us in July, 7 consistent with the letter or the SRM, needs more work and 8 that that paper, which I believe is flawed in many respects 9 and we should have recognized it was not consistent with the 10 policy position that we were taking, should be withdrawn.
11 I'm sorry that you heard about it through Inside 12 NRC. I had had some conversations with some of the staff 13 prior to the Inside NRC. So for a few folks it wasn't news, 14 but I guess for many it was.
15 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: I thank you for your 16 willingness to ask such questions as well as the earlier one 17 about Commission dynamics. I think it's important to claar 18 the air.
19 Are there any other questions?
20 QUESTION: Chairman, Commissioners, we've had a 21 lot of discussion today and on previous occasions about risk 22 information and trying to factor that into our decisions.
23 The one thing that is apparent in our focus on this risk 24 information is we may not be taking all risks into account 25 in our focus on this topic. e tend to focus on safety and i
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54 1 health issues, but there are other risks that are pertinent 2 to our decision-making. These are risks associated with 3 public acceptance, public reaction, and politics. ,
4 In the decommissioning arena, where we have an 5 arena that is very high public visibility, very motivated 6 citizens in the vicinities of those facilities, if we were 7 to strictly look at safety and health risk, we could i 8 probably say the vast bulk of decommissioning regulations 9 should not be addressed, but when you look at the adverse 10 reaction and motivative reactions by the news media, 11 concerned citizens, the state'and local governing officials, 12 the risk that we take into consideration in that arena goes 13 beyond just safety and health risk, and I suspect that is 14 probably true in other arenas as well. So when we move into 15 this area, I would recommend that we take that into 16 consideration as well.
17 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: I thank you for that comment.
18 I would make two comments relative to decommissioning.
19 Of course everything is relative, but I believe 20 the Commission took a bold step when it issued the license 21 termination rule. While some might feel it's still'not 22 sufficiently risk informed in the way that you describe, 23 nonetheless it is one that in the Commission's considered 24 judgment moves us in a direction we need to go.
25 At the same time, the very fact that you have a ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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t 55 l
L 1 Commission and the way our government operates says that we L 2 don't operate in a vacuum, and so a Commission by definition I.
, 3 is going to take and weigh all of the various quantitative l
4 inputs as well as qualitative inputs and make a judgment 5 that rests in the law, that rests on the scientific and 6 engineering basis that we have, but it will in the end be l 7 making a'public policy decision. So by definition we do 8 that because we are a.public health-and safety agency, but 9 we do make a public policy decision.
10 At any given time any decision some may feel does 11 not go far enough in terms of adequate protection, and there i 1
12 will be others who believe that a decision goes too far. 1 13 The Commission will always make the best judgment it can 14 resting on the database that it has and move forward on that 15 basis, but it is a public policy decision.
16 Commissioner Diaz.
17 COMMISSIONER DIAZ: Thank you for the question. I 18 am very concerned with the fact that sometimes we just look 19 at the technicality of an issue. There is risk to the 20 public in not only our decisions, processes, announcements, 21 and I do believe that we have to become more conscious of 22 those processes, take them into consideration and actually 23 address the risk to the public from whatever announcement, 24 whatever policy,.whatever decisions we do, and that should 25 be a normal process in this agency. At the highest possible I; ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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l 56 1 level we should be responsible for how we address risk in 2 everything we do.
3 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: If we get it right in terms of ,
4 how we do risk assessment and our ability to discuss 5 relative risk, it affords us the opportunity to communicate 6 more clearly just that, the relative risk. I think we do 7 need to be clearer in how we do that, but at any given time, 8 as I say, we are making what are essentially public policy 9 decisions.
10 COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: I just might add that 11 .I'm not sure decommissioning is the best area to cite. I am 12 proud of the structure of regulations we have in place for 13 decommissioning, the 25 millirem, all pathway standard, the 14 allowances for restricted release with up to 100 millirem 15 provided that the average member of the critical group still
( 16 gets less than 25 millirem, et cetera. We have a good, 17 sound framework for making decommissioning decisions.
18 I would strongly suggest that if there is any 19 political element to this you leave the politics to the 20 political appointees and that you try to make judgments l
1 21 based on public health and safety. And we are. In Moab and 22 other places we are criticized. It is not the end of the 23 world for a decision of this agency endorsed by the 24 Commission to be overturned in the Congress. I know all of 25 you think that it probably is, but it is not the end of the ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.
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57 I l 1 world.
l l 2 If Congress chooses to spend $100 million to do l 1
3 something that we don't think is required for public health- i I 4 and safety and we respectfully say that to them and they 5 decide something else, okay. They are our bosses, and we 6 will then do it.
7 I would strongly urge you to live within the 8 framework of the decommissioning rules that we have in 9 place, that I'm proud of, and I think thus far we are doing 10 exactly that.
11 I think I saw something in the paper'the other 12 day. I wish I remembered the-woman's name. She's from New 13 Mexico. She is the President's nominee to be the 34 Commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration.
15 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: Dr. Henney.
16 COMMISSIONER McGAFFIGAN: She was quoted by 17 somebody, an admirer, talking about an advisory group 18 meeting when she was the deputy commissioner a few years 19 back, basically telling a bunch of scientists who were 20 worried about the politics of whatever issue they were about 21 to make advice to the FDA on. She basically said to them, 22 calm down, leave the politics to us; you try to tell us what 23 the right thing to do is from,a health and safety 24 -perspective. I think that is very good advice. So you do l 25 the right thing.
i l
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58 1 I hope we don't let politics get into those 2 decommissioning decisions, that we don't second-guess the 3 staff. We have not thus far, but I can't tell you that we ,
4 will not be second-guessed as an agency externally, and 5 we'll just have to live with that. s 6 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: think many times the easiest 7 way to get into trouble, and I think where we have been 8- criticized and I think in some instances justifiably so, is 9 not being clear on what our standards are, what our 10 requirements are, whatever they are, and being clear on how 11 we have arrived at them. So the best thing we can do is to 12 have a coherent process where we clearly arrive at what we 13 feel are the justifiable requirements or standards, to 14 clearly articulate them, be willing to lay them out, and to t 15 make sure that what we do is consistent with what we in fact 16 lay out. Not everybody is going to agree on either side, 17 but people will at least respect you and understand what you 18 are trying to do.
19 Are there other questions?
20 (No response.)
21 CHAIRMAN JACKSON: I think we have enjoyed it. I 22 hope you have. This won't be the last communication. We 23 talk about being efficient. This is a good way to get a lot 24 of input at one point in time. So we look forward to 25 continuing our discussions with the rest of the staff this.
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l 59 1 afternoon.
I 2 Thank you very much. l i , 3 [ Applause.)
4 (Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., the meeting was i 5 concluded.]
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CERTIFICATE t
This is to certify that the attached description of a meeting of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission entitled:
TITLE OF MEETING: ALL EMPLOYEES MEETING ON "THE GREEN" PLAZA AREA BETWEEN BUILDINGS AT WHITE $ LINT --
PUBLIC MEETING l
l PLACE OF MEETING: Rockville, Maryland '
l DATE OF MEETING: Thursday, September 3, 1998 was held as herein appears, is a true and accurate record of the meeting, and that this is the original transcript thereof taken stenographically by me, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company r
Transcriber:
- Reporter: Mike Paulus e.
L
,