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Holtec Cisf Public Scoping Meeting May 3, 2018, Transcript
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Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION Title: Public Scoping Meeting for the Environmental Impact Statement for Holtec International's Hi-store Consolidated Interim Storage Facility for Spent Nuclear Fuel Located in Lea County, New Mexico Docket Number: N/A Location: Carlsbad, New Mexico Date: May 3, 2018 Work Order No.: NRC-3674 Pages 1-192 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.

Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.

Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433

1 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 + + + + +

4 PUBLIC SCOPING MEETING FOR THE ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT 5 STATEMENT FOR HOLTEC INTERNATIONAL'S HI-STORE 6 CONSOLIDATED INTERIM STORAGE FACILITY FOR 7 SPENT NUCLEAR FUEL LOCATED IN 8 LEA COUNTY, NEW MEXICO 9 + + + + +

10 THURSDAY, 11 MAY 3, 2018 12 + + + + +

13 CARLSBAD, NEW MEXICO 14 + + + + +

15 The Public Scoping Meeting was convened in 16 the Meeting Room at the Eddy County Fire Service, 1400 17 Commerce Drive, at 7:00 p.m., Chip Cameron, 18 facilitating.

19 20 NRC STAFF PRESENT:

21 CHIP CAMERON, Facilitator 22 BRIAN SMITH, Deputy Director, Division of Fuel Cycle 23 Safety, Safeguards, and Environmental Review, 24 Office of Nuclear Material Safety and 25 Safeguards (NMSS)

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2 1 JILL CAVERLY, Environmental Review Project Manager, 2 Environmental Review Branch, NMSS 3 JOSE CUADRADO, Licensing and Safety Review Project 4 Manager, Spent Fuel Licensing Branch, NMSS 5 JOHN McKIRGAN, Chief, Spent Fuel Licensing Branch, 6 NMSS 7 CINTHYA ROMAN, Chief, Environmental Review Branch, 8 NMSS 9

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3 1 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 2

3 Opening Remarks . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 4 Welcome and Meeting Purpose . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 NRC Licensing Review/EIS Process . . . . . . . . 10 6 Question and Answer Period . . . . . . . . . . . 22 7 Public Comments . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23 8 Closing Remarks . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 192 9

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4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 7:04 p.m.

3 MR. CAMERON: Hey, good evening, 4 everybody, and welcome. My name's Chip Cameron, and 5 it's my pleasure to serve as your facilitator for 6 tonight's meeting.

7 And this is a Carlsbad edition, so to 8 speak, of a series of public meetings that the Nuclear 9 Regulatory Commission is holding on its review of the 10 license application that we received from Holtec 11 International to build and operate an interim spent 12 fuel storage facility in Lea County.

13 And the focus of the meeting is something 14 called scoping. And scoping is a term that's used in 15 the connection with the preparation of an 16 Environmental Impact Statement under the federal law, 17 the National Environmental Policy Act. And we're 18 going to try to keep the acronyms down. But three 19 that you will hear tonight are NRC, EIS, for 20 Environmental Impact Statement, and NEPA, National 21 Environmental Policy Act.

22 So scoping is pretty simple really. It's 23 what should be considered by the Agency, in this case 24 the NRC, when they prepare an Environmental Impact 25 Statement. What should be covered, what should be NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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5 1 addressed, and what does it need to be addressed in 2 the Environmental Impact Statement. Therefore, what's 3 the scope of it?

4 And the NRC staff is here to tell you 5 about their review process, the environmental process, 6 but also the safety review. Those are the two primary 7 segments of how the NRC decides whether to grant a 8 license or to deny a license. So we have 9 environmental review, we have the safety review.

10 Tonight, we're going to focus on the 11 scoping part of the environmental review, and after 12 the NRC receives comments in meetings like this or in 13 writing, they're going to prepare what's called a 14 scoping report, and that will be available to the 15 public. They'll summarize what they heard in the 16 scoping meetings.

17 But they're also going to use those 18 scoping comments to prepare a draft Environmental 19 Impact Statement. I want to emphasize draft, because 20 it won't be finalized until the come out here again 21 and they get written public comments on that draft 22 Environmental Impact Statement. And then they'll 23 finalize it.

24 So two objectives, key objectives tonight.

25 One is for the NRC to clearly explain their review NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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6 1 process to you, review of the license application.

2 And secondly to give them an opportunity to listen to 3 your comments, advice, recommendations on this 4 particular project.

5 And those two objectives correspond to the 6 format for the meeting. First of all, we're going to 7 have presentations from the NRC staff, and they're 8 going to be fairly crisp, too, okay. And the second 9 part of the meeting is public comment, and we're going 10 to ask you to come up here to the microphone and give 11 us your comments.

12 And we are taking a transcript. We have 13 Matthew McMullen over here, and he's our court 14 reporter. And that transcript will be made public, 15 and it's going to be probably about three weeks. But 16 it'll be on the NRC website, and the NRC staff will 17 tell you how to access that.

18 We have a lot of people signed up to 19 speak, and I think it's going to be a pretty 20 interesting meeting. Some of the people we've heard 21 at the previous two meetings that we did Monday in 22 Roswell and Tuesday in Hobbs, but they can speak 23 again.

24 But because we have so many people, 25 instead of having five minutes, which we, which I like NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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7 1 to give people five minutes. You can usually make 2 your comments, thoughts known in five minutes. We're 3 going to go four minutes, okay. Because we would like 4 to get out of here before midnight, okay. But no, 5 we've been finishing up about 10:45.

6 And I'll remind you at the three-minute 7 mark, gentle reminder, can you finish up. And I know 8 people are getting sick of me, tired of me saying to 9 every speaker, can you finish up. So I'm going to 10 take something from the soccer world.

11 When you got a minute left, I'll just tell 12 you, you got the yellow card, all right. And then 13 when your time's up, we're going to be nice and gentle 14 and give you the pink card instead of the red card, 15 okay.

16 But any rate, I apologize if I have to ask 17 you to stop, because I know you spent a lot of time 18 preparing remarks. But luckily, you can amplify on 19 your remarks you give tonight by submitting written 20 comments, and the staff will tell you how to do that.

21 The staff is not, they're here to listen 22 carefully to what you're saying. But they're not 23 going to respond to any comments that you have. And 24 sometimes people ask questions during their comments.

25 And they're not going to be answering those questions.

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8 1 But when they evaluate the transcript, the comments 2 from the meeting, they'll carefully look at what you 3 suggested.

4 And I just want to tell you that we do 5 have Beverly Allen here. Beverly, where are you?

6 Beverly is from Senator Tom Udall's office, and thank 7 the Senator, thank you for being here, and thank the 8 Senator for having you come to the meeting. I just 9 wanted people to know that you were here.

10 MS. ALLEN: Diane Ventura from Senator 11 Heinrich's office is on her way.

12 MR. CAMERON: Okay. So when Diane gets 13 here, maybe we'll just interrupt and we'll introduce 14 her. So when we do get to the comment period, I'm 15 going to call four or five names in a row. And it 16 cuts down on the time if you can get ready to come up 17 and speak.

18 So we're going to try to be really crisp 19 and efficient tonight. But I think you're going to 20 hear a lot of good comments. NRC's going to hear a 21 lot of good comments. And one other thing is is that 22 when we do these public meetings on a license 23 application, the public is always interested in 24 talking to the license applicant, in this case, Holtec 25 International.

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9 1 Well, we do have Joy Russell here from 2 Holtec International, and some of her colleagues. And 3 she'll be available after the meeting to talk to you 4 about any questions that you might have.

5 So let me introduce the NRC staff for you.

6 We're going to start out with Cinthya Roman, okay.

7 And Cinthya is the Branch Chief of the Environmental 8 Review Branch at the NRC in the Office of Nuclear 9 Materials Safety and Safeguards. She's going to 10 introduce some information about the NRC.

11 And then we're going to have Jill Caverly, 12 who's right here. Jill is the project manager for the 13 environmental review of the Holtec International 14 license application. So she is a key person, and 15 she's going to tell you about that review.

16 And our senior NRC official is Brian 17 Smith. And Brian is the Deputy Director of the 18 Division of Fuel Cycle Safeguards and Environmental 19 Review, and he'll also close out the meeting for us 20 when we're done hearing from all of you.

21 And we have our safety analysts here with 22 us from the Agency, and we have the Branch Chief, John 23 McKirgan. And we have the Safety Project Manager, 24 Jose Cuadrado. And the, oftentimes there's a 25 correspondence between the environmental review NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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10 1 material and what the NRC needs, the safety findings 2 they need to make.

3 So they're here to listen to, if there's 4 any safety issues, they're here to listen to that.

5 And finally, and I'll get out of here, we 6 have Dave MacIntyre here somewhere. There's Dave 7 MacIntyre, he's a senior Public Affairs official at 8 NRC Headquarters in Rockville. We have Bill Maier.

9 Bill, are you here? Bill Maier, okay. He's from our 10 regional, he's the Regional Liaison Officer at the NRC 11 office in Texas, Region IV. So he's with us, and we 12 have Angel Moreno, who's with our Office of 13 Congressional Affairs. We also have some other people 14 here from Congressional Affairs.

15 But final thing, just be courteous to 16 everybody. You may hear things that you don't agree 17 with, but just respect the person who's given that.

18 And Cinthya, are you ready? Okay, Cinthya Roman.

19 MS. ROMAN: Hi. First I want to say a 20 couple of things in Spanish. He provided a lot of 21 information, so I just want to make sure that people 22 that speak Spanish have that information.

23 (Foreign language spoken.)

24 MS. ROMAN: Good evening, as Chip 25 mentioned, staff in my branch is going to be working NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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11 1 on the Environmental Review Branch for the Holtec 2 license application. And our main goal today is to 3 hear from you, so I'm going to be very brief.

4 First, I want to give you a very quick 5 overview of what NRC does and our role in regulating 6 the Holtec project. Our agency is charged by federal 7 law to be the nation's only regulator of commercial 8 nuclear fuel, nuclear materials, independently 9 ensuring these materials are used, handled, stored 10 safely, securely.

11 Our mission is to protect the public 12 health and safety, promote the common defense and 13 security, and protect the environment by regulating 14 the civilian use of radioactive materials. To 15 accomplish our mission, we carefully review each 16 license application we receive before making a 17 decision on whether or not to grant the applicant's 18 request. Next slide.

19 NRC regulates the operation of 99 nuclear 20 power reactors that generate about 20% of the 21 electricity in the United States. We also regulate 22 civilian use of nuclear materials, research reactors 23 at universities, transportation of nuclear materials, 24 and their storage and disposal.

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12 1 its review. As such, stakeholders have many 2 opportunities to participate in public meetings on 3 environmental and safety issues. This scoping meeting 4 is one of those opportunities. Next slide.

5 As an independent regulator, the NRC 6 determines whether it is safe to build and operate a 7 storage facility at the proposed site. The NRC does 8 not promote or build the nuclear facility. Also, we 9 do not own or operate the nuclear facility. Again, 10 our mission and our regulations are designed to 11 protect both the public, workers, and the environment.

12 Holtec is applying for a license to store 13 waste. Holtec is not asking for permission to 14 reprocess or generate more nuclear waste. NRC does 15 not select the location for the storage facility, we 16 just evaluate the impacts of building and operating 17 the storage facility at the location proposed by the 18 licensee.

19 As we will explain later in this 20 presentation, the results of our environmental review 21 will be documented in an Environmental Impact 22 Statement, which is also a public document. This 23 analysis, along with other factors, will form the 24 basis for the staff decision to issue a license or 25 not.

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13 1 Now, Jill Caverly will provide additional 2 details about the Holtec project and the environmental 3 review process. Thank you.

4 MS. CAVERLY: Good evening, I'm Jill 5 Caverly, and I'm going to be the Environmental Project 6 Manager for the review. The next few slides will be 7 specific to the Holtec storage facility application 8 and its review.

9 Holtec has applied for a license to 10 construct and operate the storage facility under 10 11 CFR Part 72, or the NRC's regulations governing 12 storage of spent nuclear fuel and reactor-related, 13 greater than Class C waste.

14 If granted, the Holtec would receive a 40-15 year license to construct and operate a consolidated 16 interim storage facility. The current application 17 before the NRC requests construction and operation of 18 only the first phase of up to 20 planned phases. This 19 is the current -- in this current application, Holtec 20 is requesting storage of up to 500 canisters of spent 21 nuclear fuel.

22 This spent fuel would come from shut down 23 and operating nuclear power plants from around the 24 country. Holtec anticipates applying for up to 20 25 phases of construction and operation of 500 canisters NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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14 1 of spent nuclear fuel each, for a total of 10,000 2 canisters of spent fuel storage.

3 These additional phases would require 4 separate applications from Holtec, and would be 5 subject to their own safety and environmental reviews.

6 The Environmental Report provides information on the 7 full build-out of the site for 10,000 canisters. Next 8 slide, please.

9 This slide shows the approximate location 10 for the proposed consolidated interim storage facility 11 in New Mexico. As you can see, the facility is 12 located approximately halfway between the cities of 13 Carlsbad and Hobbs in Lea County. Next slide.

14 Holtec plans to use the HI-STORM UMAX 15 system for the storage of the spent fuel. HI-STORM 16 UMAX stands for Holtec International storage module 17 underground maximum capacity, and is an NRC-certified 18 design. That means that we have evaluated it and 19 determined it meets NRC regulations and can safely 20 store spent fuel.

21 The system is a dry, in-ground, spent fuel 22 storage system, and each of these modules holds one 23 canister of spent fuel. Holtec has applied for 24 storage of 500 canisters of spent fuel. The 25 canisters' transfer facilities would be below ground.

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15 1 This is a low profile design, as seen in the 2 conceptual drawing from the Holtec application. Next 3 slide.

4 This flow chart provides the overview of 5 the license application process, which could be 6 described generally as a three-parallel-phrase 7 process. After the application is submitted, NRC 8 conducts an acceptance review to determine if the 9 application has sufficient information to begin a 10 detailed technical review. If so, NRC dockets the 11 application, and this begins the safety and 12 environmental review phases.

13 From a safety standpoint, we work through 14 a separate review to decide if the license should be 15 issued. The result of this phase of the review is a 16 safety evaluation report. This is graphically 17 represented on the left column of the flow chart in 18 the steps in orange.

19 The environmental review results in an 20 Environmental Impact Statement, which describes the 21 impacts on the environment from the proposed project.

22 On the right side, you'll see the adjudicatory 23 hearings. This blue box on the figure refers to the 24 opportunity for the public to request a hearing on the 25 application.

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16 1 These hearings would be held if a petition 2 to intervene is granted. So the results of these 3 three processes, a hearing if granted, the results of 4 the environmental review, documented in the EIS, and 5 the safety review, documented in a safety evaluation 6 report, will factor into NRC's final decision whether 7 or not to grant the license to Holtec for the storage 8 facility.

9 It's important to note that the focus of 10 this meeting is the environmental review process.

11 Next slide.

12 This flow diagram outlines the 13 environmental review process, or the middle column of 14 the previous slide. The opportunities for the public 15 involvement are highlighted in light blue.

16 The NRC starts its review by publishing a 17 notice of intent to inform the public of our plan to 18 prepare an EIS and to conduct a scoping process. The 19 light blue box on the right side identifies the 20 current scoping process, in which this meeting is 21 included.

22 The purpose of this phase is to gather 23 more information to use to help us prepare our EIS.

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17 1 evaluated for impacts of this particular project on 2 the environment.

3 We will document your comments today in a 4 meeting transcript. The public can also provide 5 written comments through the end of the scoping 6 period.

7 We will analyze all the information 8 gathered, develop a draft EIS, and issue it for public 9 comment. At that time, we again invite the public's 10 comment on the draft EIS, that's the lower blue box, 11 the lower left blue box. At that time, the staff will 12 continue -- oh, sorry. At that time, the staff will 13 schedule a meeting to hear your comments. The staff 14 will evaluate those comments and consider modifying 15 the draft EIS before issuing a final EIS.

16 The final EIS and the results of the 17 safety evaluation, or the Safety Evaluation Report, 18 will contribute to our final decision. Next slide.

19 The environmental is based on the 20 requirements of the National Environmental Policy Act, 21 or NEPA. NEPA requires federal agencies to apply a 22 systematic approach to evaluate the impacts of its 23 actions on the environment. NRC will prepare an EIS 24 in accordance with regulations and guidance. Next 25 slide.

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18 1 This is a graphical representation of the 2 types and sources of information that NRC gathers when 3 preparing an EIS. We will conduct a site visit and 4 meet with local and state officials and other federal 5 agencies. We will also meet with tribes.

6 We are currently gathering information for 7 scoping that will help determine which issues should 8 be considered in our review. We also expect to 9 request additional information from Holtec following 10 the completion of this process. Next slide.

11 The NRC will gather information on a wide 12 range of topics related to our environmental issues.

13 This slide shows the resource areas that we will 14 consider in our Environmental Impact Statement. The 15 NRC typically includes these environmental resource 16 areas in its reviews.

17 So this slide is a high-level timeline for 18 our anticipated environmental review. This stepwise 19 approach meets our responsibilities under the National 20 Environmental Policy Act. We started the review with 21 a notice of intent to conduct scoping and prepare an 22 EIS. This started the 60-day scoping period. This 23 public meeting is part of that scoping process. We 24 will continue to gather and analyze information 25 related to the review and develop the draft EIS.

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19 1 We tentatively expect to publish the draft 2 EIS in June of 2019. At that point, we'll publish a 3 notice of availability, and that will start a 45-day 4 period for the public and other agencies to comment on 5 the draft EIS. These comments will also be addressed 6 and the analysis adjusted if necessary. We 7 tentatively expect to issue the final EIS in mid-2020.

8 Next slide.

9 So the scoping process helps the NRC to 10 determine the scope of the EIS and identify 11 significant issues to be analyzed in depth. It also 12 helps to identify and eliminate issues which are not 13 significant.

14 Finally, it helps us to identify other 15 environmental reviews and consultation requirements 16 related to the proposed action. So in other words, we 17 want to hear from you, because you live in the local 18 area and bring issues to our attention that we may not 19 be aware of. Next slide.

20 The NRC is requesting information and 21 input specific to this proposed facility regarding 22 what should be included or excluded from the scope of 23 the EIS.

24 Some examples of information that NRC is 25 requesting are, are there any local projects that are NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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20 1 being planned or developed nearby? Have you 2 identified wildlife or habitat that should be 3 considered? Are there cultural resources that should 4 be considered in the evaluation? Are there particular 5 populations nearby that should be considered? Are 6 there any other unique characteristics of the project 7 site or local communities that the NRC should consider 8 in its evaluation? Next slide.

9 These are the ways that you can submit 10 comments on the scope of the EIS. You may present 11 your comments orally or in writing at this public 12 meeting. You may submit comments through the 13 regulations.gov website by searching for the docket ID 14 NRC-2018-0025, submitting those comments there.

15 You may also mail your comments to the 16 address on this slide. But remember that all the 17 comments should be submitted by May 29 to ensure that 18 they will be considered. That's the end of the 19 scoping period.

20 Additional information on the application 21 and the review can be found on the federal rulemaking 22 website, or at NRC's public document room, or through 23 NRC's project-specific website for the Holtec 24 application. In addition, we've provided the 25 libraries of Hobbs, Carlsbad, and Roswell with NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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21 1 Environmental Reports for your review.

2 If you want to be on our mailing list or 3 email list, please make sure that your name and 4 address are provided to one of the NRC staff at the 5 registration area. This is just one way to ensure 6 that you will be notified of upcoming meetings at the 7 issuance of draft and final EIS.

8 At the bottom of the slide you'll see the 9 points of contact for the Holtec application. So 10 that's wrapping up my portion of the presentation, but 11 please remember to submit all your comments by May 29.

12 Thank you. Brian.

13 MR. SMITH: Good evening, welcome, and 14 thank you for attending our public meeting tonight.

15 We look forward to hearing all of your comments.

16 The NRC's job is to protect the public 17 health and safety and the environment by thoroughly 18 reviewing each license application we receive before 19 deciding whether or not to grant an applicant's 20 request. We understand that in the audience tonight, 21 there are those who may oppose Holtec's license 22 application, as well as those who may support it.

23 I want to assure you that we want to hear 24 from both sides this evening. However, I want to 25 remind you that the purpose of this meeting is to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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22 1 gather comments for the scoping of our EIS. We want 2 to know what important information and issues we need 3 to consider and analyze in our EIS.

4 We treat all the comments we receive the 5 same, whether a comment was made one person, or by a 6 hundred people. We give each comment we receive the 7 same careful consideration through the preparation of 8 the EIS. We will consider all of the oral and written 9 comments we receive here tonight, as well as those we 10 receive via letter, email, or through the federal 11 rulemaking website, regulations.gov.

12 The EIS, combined with NRC's safety and 13 security review of Holtec's license application 14 request, will result in an NRC licensing decision to 15 either approve the license request or disapprove it.

16 I'll end my remarks there and turn it over to Chip.

17 MR. CAMERON: Okay, thank you, thank you 18 very much all of you. And I introduced Beverly Allen 19 before from Senator Udall's office, and we have Diane 20 Ventura here with us from Senator Heinrich's office.

21 So thank you both for being here.

22 And is the review process clear to all of 23 you? Basically, does anybody have a question about 24 the review process? Yes.

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23 1 email set up now for comments to come in. Have you 2 announced that already?

3 MS. ROMAN: We need to issue a Federal 4 Register Notice. That's going to take a couple of 5 days. But you should see it soon, probably next week.

6 MR. CAMERON: And we apologize for the 7 feedback, but let's get started with our comments 8 tonight. And we're going to go to elected officials 9 first, and we're going to lead off with the Mayor of 10 Carlsbad, Mayor Janway, then we're going to go to 11 Commissioner Susan Crockett, and then three City 12 Council people. But I'll do that later. Go ahead, 13 Mayor.

14 MR. JANWAY: Start over here. Good 15 evening. As the Mayor of Carlsbad, I'd like to 16 welcome the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to our town.

17 Tonight's scoping meeting has been in 18 development for a long time. We're here thanks to the 19 hard work of the members of the Eddy-Lea Energy 20 Alliance, Holtec, and NRC itself. And this is a key 21 milestone in a very lengthy effort.

22 To best understand this project, you need 23 to go back quite a bit further than that, to the Blue 24 Ribbon Commission on America's Nuclear Future, which 25 of course included former Senator Pete Domenici. The NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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24 1 BRC's mission was to draft recommendations on closing 2 the fuel cycle.

3 Spent fuel was sitting at locations across 4 the country and a repository is years from 5 development. The BRC's recommendations included an 6 interim storage facility and a consent-based formula 7 for moving forward. Tonight's effort is a combination 8 of those two recommendations.

9 You can't talk about consent-based in the 10 nuclear industry without looking at Carlsbad. This 11 community's efforts when it came to the waste 12 isolation pilot plan are legendary. While activists 13 from other parts of the nation have suddenly all 14 convinced themselves they can speak for our interest 15 here, residents of Carlsbad have taken the approach 16 that we want to examine the actual scientific data and 17 make a wise decision.

18 Most of our citizens took that approach 19 decades ago, and they are taking it again now.

20 Carlsbad may well happen, and we believe we can make 21 this consolidated storage facility happen as well.

22 What we're examining now is a Holtec system that is 23 the safest in the world. They have a transportation 24 system that is the most robust system ever licensed.

25 This is an excellent proposal.

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25 1 Carlsbad, as well as Hobbs, Eddy County, 2 and Lea County has passed resolutions in support of 3 this interim storage facility because we know there's 4 a great need for these facility, and because we're in 5 the ideal remote site with Holtec's subsurface system.

6 This is a system that has been designed 7 with safety and security in mind, and we appreciate 8 all the hard work that brought us to this point.

9 I strongly support this project and 10 believe it is vital to the future of Carlsbad and the 11 area. Thank you.

12 MR. CAMERON: Mayor, thank you very much.

13 And we're going to do two things here that will help.

14 It's maybe, can we put one of the cordless mics there?

15 We're going to get a better mic, but also in a few 16 minutes we're going to get -- okay.

17 MS. CROCKETT: I'm good. Ready? We're 18 playing musical mics. All right, good evening, I want 19 to welcome the NRC. And thank you so much for taking 20 time to listen to the stakeholders.

21 My name is Susan Crockett. I am Chairman 22 of the Eddy County Commission, President of the 23 Carlsbad Department of Development, member of the 24 Eddy-Lea Energy Alliance. And I'm also on the Mayor's 25 Nuclear Task Force.

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26 1 I have been involved in the development of 2 the interim storage facility for over eight years, and 3 I have educated myself and learned about the facility.

4 And I'm confident in the safety and security of the 5 proposed design. There is a huge need for this 6 project throughout the country, and we have a great 7 site for it.

8 I have learned, as I've educated myself, 9 that we have spent fuel stored on rivers, around 10 lakes, oceans, and in communities that don't need this 11 in their communities. This puts these areas at an 12 environmental risk. Our site is remote and a great 13 location until a repository is developed.

14 Holtec's proposed casks passed all the NRC 15 testing and modeling with flying colors, and I think 16 the 15-inch thick wall of the cask with the impact 17 limiters make it indestructible. Holtec's subsurface 18 system is the safest and most secure system in the 19 world.

20 I come from a fourth generation farming 21 family, and it was mentioned in a previous meeting 22 that this facility could have an economic impact on 23 farmland. If there were a leak of radioactivity, it 24 could possibly affect the Pecos Valley Compact. That 25 comment is totally unfounded and not true.

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27 1 I am a lifelong resident of Eddy County, 2 my husband is a lifelong resident of Eddy County. We 3 have raised our two grown children here, and our 4 oldest son, daughter-in-law, and my eight-month-old 5 grandson live here. And all of them support this 6 project and have no fear of living near this proposed 7 site.

8 I have never been one to believe in hype 9 and hysteria. I believe in following science, 10 engineering, and testing to come to informed 11 decisions, and I fully support this project. Again, 12 thank you for your time and for listening to the 13 stakeholders. We appreciate it.

14 MR. CAMERON: Okay, thank you, thank you 15 very much, Commissioner. And we'll move this back a 16 little bit and it'll give, I think there's going to be 17 plenty of light. Okay, Lisa, did you want to come up 18 and talk to us? And just introduce yourself to 19 everybody. Thank you.

20 MS. ANAYA-FLORES: Good evening, NRC 21 members. My name is Lisa Anaya-Flores. I am a 22 lifelong resident of Carlsbad. I am retired from the 23 Carlsbad School District, and I serve our community as 24 a city councilor. I am a mother and a grandmother, a 25 wife, sister, aunt.

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28 1 I've been following the development of the 2 interim storage facility for some time. I have to say 3 I'm impressed by the safety and security of its 4 design. There's no question of its need in our 5 nation. I believe we have an ideal setting for it.

6 And I believe that it's an ideal place to have these 7 spent fuels stored until a repository is developed.

8 I strongly, strongly support the project.

9 Thank you for hearing my comments, and I appreciate 10 you being here.

11 MR. CAMERON: Thank you very much.

12 And we're going to go to three members of 13 the Carlsbad City Council now. And let's go to Ed, Ed 14 Rodriguez, and then JJ Chavez and Mark Waltersheid.

15 MR. RODRIGUEZ: Thank you. And again, 16 welcome to my little neighborhood here. My name is 17 Eddie Rodriguez. I am a city councilman for Ward 1.

18 I am also the Mayor pro tem for Carlsbad. Been here 19 my whole life, and I welcome you to our little slice 20 of paradise here.

21 I too am in total support of Holtec coming 22 into our neighborhood. There is a lot of safety 23 precaution that has been looked at, examined, and 24 passed by you sitting at this table. All of those 25 safety features are designed to protect everyone. All NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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29 1 along the route, everywhere we go, everywhere it moves 2 from beginning to end, you guys have considered all 3 safety aspects and addressed them.

4 In the design that Holtec has moved 5 forward with, and which their design is actually now 6 being implemented by another company in order to 7 ensure the safety of their fuel rods in the same 8 manner as Holtec is able to secure.

9 Now one thing I'd like to address is the 10 transportation of those casks. These are very heavy, 11 as you know. They will have to travel by rail. And 12 there has been made comments about environmental 13 justice.

14 Environmental justice as defined by EPA is 15 the fair treatment and meaningful involvement of all 16 people, regardless of race, color, national origin, or 17 income with respect to the development, 18 implementation, and enforcement of environmental laws, 19 regulations, and policies.

20 This was intended to protect people, and 21 we all understand that. Now, the basic concept is 22 good. But if it's misused or misappropriated or 23 mislabeled because we don't agree with something that 24 is going to happen, that does not make it an 25 environmental injustice.

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30 1 If we were to build a coal plant and 2 decide to build it, it's a brand new coal plant that 3 we're going to build, and we look at a poor 4 neighborhood that cannot defend itself against our 5 actions, then that would be a social, an environmental 6 injustice. That's not what we're talking about here.

7 We are talking about railroad, which is 8 the backbone of America. It was built, it was laid, 9 and we built American cities around that for that very 10 reason, so that we could get the goods that we wanted 11 and that we needed in order to conduct business and 12 further our own ventures.

13 So as we move forward here, I want to be 14 careful that we don't use that environmental justice 15 as a golden ticket, a claim that we can make just 16 because we don't agree with something that's going to 17 happen.

18 The proposed Holtec location is 35 miles 19 from Carlsbad and Hobbs, as has been well described.

20 Carlsbad and Hobbs are by no means poor communities.

21 We have very robust industries, we have a lot of oil 22 and gas, and we have very high paying salaries here.

23 So because environmental justice cannot be applied to 24 the cities, it's being applied to the rail transport 25 system.

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31 1 And that's not an accurate application of 2 that. And I would hope that as you look forward and 3 move forward with this that environmental justice is 4 considered for what it really should be. And in the 5 event of an accident on the rail, the least of the 6 worries would be the cask and any radiation leak.

7 Those casks would survive. They've been 8 dropped on a spike, they've been submerged in water, 9 they've shot at by a rocket to show that it could 10 survive a jet impact. So you have done your due 11 diligence, and we are trying to do our due diligence 12 here in getting this thing done and passed. And I ask 13 that you consider all of these as you move forward.

14 And I believe that instead of 15 environmental justice, we as Americans should be 16 talking about responsibility. We have all the waste 17 that has been mentioned before stored at facilities, 18 and we should be very worried about where it's stored, 19 because it's stored very close to waterways. One is 20 on the ocean in a fault area. That should really 21 concern us. We need to get that out of there. And 22 they're in very populated areas.

23 So I strongly support the Holtec project 24 and believe it will make safer the lives of American 25 citizens of all race, color, creed, and ethnicity.

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32 1 Thank you for your time and once again, welcome to our 2 little slice of heaven.

3 MR. CAMERON: Thank you, thank you very 4 much. And we're going to hear from JJ Chavez and, 5 Chavez, and Mark Walterscheid. But we also have Eddy 6 County Commission James Walterscheid here with us.

7 Okay.

8 MR. CHAVEZ: Good evening, my name is JJ 9 Chavez. I was recently elected to the Carlsbad City 10 Council. Myself and my family are lifelong residents 11 of Carlsbad. Myself and several of my peers grew up 12 with the WIPP project, by getting informed by 13 presentations at school, by having family members work 14 there, friends and neighbors work at the WIPP and 15 URENCO facilities. Carlsbad, Hobbs, Eddy, Lea.

16 We have a strong understanding of the 17 nuclear issues, such as transportation and storage.

18 Not only do we have an understanding, the community 19 came together to reopen WIPP after the 2014 events.

20 The community knows how vital the facility was to the 21 city and to the United States.

22 As the community knows how vital Holtec is 23 to the community and to the United States by it being 24 safe, stable. And it's placed 35 miles from any 25 population. The containers have been tested in every NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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33 1 which way imaginable, and will withstand with 2 stringent safety measures. The intermittent storage 3 provides a great temporary storage until a repository 4 is developed. I strongly support the project. Thank 5 you.

6 MR. CAMERON: Thank you, Mr. Chavez.

7 MR. M. WALTERSCHEID: Okay, my name is 8 Mark Waltersheid, I'm a lifelong member, I've lived 9 here all my life. Member of this group, right. I'm 10 a member of this Carlsbad City Council, I'm in favor 11 of the NRC's process of permitting this proposed 12 facility, and I will stand very vigilant in every step 13 of the process.

14 We are very diverse in our business 15 makeup, and this project would only strengthen our 16 economy here. Thank you.

17 MR. CAMERON: Okay, thank you. And is 18 Eddy County Commissioner James Waltersheid here?

19 Thank you, Commissioner.

20 MR. J. WALTERSCHEID: Good evening, 21 members of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, we 22 welcome you to Carlsbad and Eddy County. And like 23 Councilor Eddie Rodriguez said, this is the slice of 24 heaven. That's the way we think of it. The weather's 25 been fairly good here today, so I hope you all enjoy NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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34 1 it.

2 I would like to point out to, one thing 3 I've heard, I was at the NRC scoping meeting in Hobbs 4 last year. And it was brought up about, the business 5 about the nuclear spent rods need to stay put at the 6 power plants. And I think it's a no-brainer. They've 7 got to come out of those power plants because of the 8 reason that they're mostly located on lakes, rivers, 9 streams, and oceans.

10 I've seen the San Onofre plant in 11 California when I was there, living there about 30, 40 12 years ago, and it's right on the water, you know. And 13 the reason they're all on these bodies of water is the 14 cooling. There is no doubt about that.

15 And so I mean, to me, I think there was, 16 I've heard it said there was like 200 sites across the 17 country that they're holding these spent fuel rods and 18 will hold in the future. And they're going to keep 19 holding them, and some have been there 30 years or 20 more in these swimming pools being cooled.

21 So anyway, you would think from a 22 practical way of looking at this thing, they need to 23 be put somewhere away from lakes, any kind of bodies 24 of water. There is no doubt in my mind about that.

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35 1 would argue that point.

2 But anyway, it appears that this is, you 3 know, it's going to be probably out west. That's the 4 least population center. Nevada looked like a good 5 place for the repository, people in Nevada weren't too 6 happy with it. So this area has WIPP, and there's a 7 lot of people are educated and have a lot of knowledge 8 about the nuclear industry here.

9 And so this appears to be a pretty good 10 place to put it. But anyway, I just think the Nuclear 11 Regulatory Commission will, trust that they will do a 12 good job in thoroughly scrutinizing this application.

13 So thank you for doing this, thank you.

14 MR. CAMERON: Thank you, County 15 Commissioner. We're next going to go to Michael 16 Hernandez, and then John Heaton and Police Chief 17 Skinner, Fire Chief Lopez if he's here. John Moyer.

18 And those are our next ones, and here's Michael.

19 MR. HERNANDEZ: Good evening, my name is 20 Michael Hernandez, and I'm employed by the city of 21 Carlsbad as the City Administrator. I'm a longtime 22 resident of Eddy County. I want to thank the NRC for 23 taking time to come visit this site and learn the 24 information from the locals.

25 My family and myself have lived here for NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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36 1 many years, and we are well acquainted with WIPP and 2 the URENCO projects. My family and myself like and 3 support these projects and what they do to our area.

4 The proposed site is an ideal location.

5 The remoteness, the 35 miles from any populated area 6 is key, it's really important. This location would be 7 great to temporarily store the fuel until a repository 8 is developed.

9 I very much endorse this project and 10 encourage the NRC to expedite the licensing process, 11 and I thank you for your time.

12 MR. CAMERON: Thank you, Mr. Hernandez.

13 And now we have John Heaton.

14 MR. HEATON: Thank you again. Good 15 evening, welcome to Carlsbad, and thank you for being 16 here. I am the current Chairman of the Eddy-Lea 17 Energy Alliance, and we do really appreciate you being 18 here to listen to the community.

19 Eddy-Lea had purchased 1000 acres of land 20 for the GNEP project. It didn't materialize. Then 21 when the focus of the Blue Ribbon Commission on 22 Consolidated Interim Storage occurred, we recognized 23 that there was a huge problem in the country, as you 24 already heard. Many power plants, or most of them, 25 are all located on rivers, streams, lakes, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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37 1 oceanfronts, and some are in very seismic sensitive 2 areas.

3 Fuel pools are overpacked, and many sites 4 had no storage capacity at all. And now the taxpayer 5 is paying the utilities to maintain their fuel because 6 DOE didn't take the fuel in 1998 by contract. The 7 utilities had never anticipated on-site storage, and 8 now a third of the population of the United States 9 lives within 50 miles of a power plant. That's 120 10 million people.

11 We all know we need a repository. But in 12 the absence of one, and knowing it will be several 13 decades before there is one, the BRC recommended 14 interim storage. We then recognized that we had an 15 ideal site. Remote, 35 miles from any population, 16 seismically stable, dry, a local nuclear workforce, 17 and a population with two nuclear facilities that what 18 I call have a high nuclear IQ.

19 The local population understands nuclear 20 materials and know they can now be handled 21 competently. Even WIPP, which was designed with a 22 HEPA filter system in case of a leak from a rock fall, 23 worked just as it was designed to do.

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38 1 of the big three and invited bids. We chose Holtec 2 not only because they are a great company with a 3 fabulous record, but they have the best, safest, most 4 secure system in the world. And a contract is a 5 contract, but they are doing everything that they 6 agreed to do and even more.

7 I think that represents the character of 8 the company, their leadership, and their great 9 employees. We are very impressed by Holtec. The 10 Holtec system is, as you've heard, a subsurface system 11 and has virtually no interaction with the environment.

12 It is resistant to floods, hurricanes, tornadoes, 13 seismic events, terrorist attacks, rockets, and plane 14 crashes.

15 Because of its robustness, it was the 16 system, as you heard, chosen for San Onofre, which is 17 literally on the oceanfront. And it is impacted by 18 the San Onofre, or the San Andreas fault. Holtec's 19 high star transportation cask has a 15-inch wall of 20 steel and lead and is virtually indestructible.

21 Testing requires to be dropped on the most 22 vulnerable point, dropped on a spike, burned in jet 23 fuel at 1400 degrees, and then submerged in 30 feet of 24 water, and it cannot leak. The release of the cask on 25 the surface of the cask is five times less than the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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39 1 NRC standards at two meters. At only a few meters 2 more, it is indistinguishable from background.

3 It will travel on a unit train with a 4 security guard, with security guards, travel at 5 reduced speeds, and will be satellite tracked. We 6 can't tell you that there won't be an accident. There 7 are a lot of crazy people that will pull in front of 8 a train. But we can tell you that there won't be a 9 release.

10 This is deja vu for us. We went through 11 this same thing with WIPP. We went through all the 12 fearmongering. WIPP has shipped more than 12,000 13 shipments and traveled over 14 million miles. That's 14 like going to the moon and back 28 times, without a 15 serious accident and absolutely no release.

16 We hear comments that say why would we 17 ship it twice and double risk. Believe me, a 18 repository will be in the West, and moving the spent 19 fuel two-thirds of the way to the repository will only 20 impact the mileage traveled slightly more. There is 21 really no real increase in travel risk.

22 There are no pumps, no moving parts, it 23 just sits there and decays. I can't think of a more 24 totally benign project. It is a great economic 25 development for our area, and we support it strongly.

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40 1 And again, thank you for being here.

2 MR. CAMERON: Thank you, John. We are 3 going to go to Chief Skinner, Chief Lopez, and 4 Assistant Chief Moyer. But then we're going to go to 5 Don Hancock and Melanie Deason. Hi, Chief.

6 MR. SKINNER: Good evening, my name is 7 Shane Skinner, and I'm Chief of Police of the Carlsbad 8 Police Department.

9 I appreciate the opportunity to speak 10 tonight. Obviously, you'll have a lot of people to 11 come up here and speak about the nature of the 12 project, and I tend to stick to what I know, what I 13 see, what I experience. And that is is, obviously as 14 a key member of this city's emergency services, we've 15 had the opportunity to work with WIPP over a long 16 period of time.

17 WIPP has not only been a local facility 18 that has employed a large local workforce, but it has 19 long been integrated with the community of Carlsbad.

20 I have witnessed the great effort that WIPP has placed 21 on educating the community and local citizens on 22 nuclear material. I've often spoke to many citizens 23 who feel very informed and are pleased the WIPP 24 facility is here in our area.

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41 1 public safety, I must say that WIPP has always been 2 accommodating in engaging with us on a proactive 3 level. With the help of the WIPP staff, we have 4 coordinated on-site visits, training opportunities for 5 staff members, development of emergency response 6 plans, and dedication to a mutual and continual 7 communication.

8 I feel like WIPP has always been 9 transparent in their efforts to be part of the 10 solutions that arise for potential problems that I 11 face and encounter as the Chief of Police.

12 Therefore based on my knowledge of the 13 WIPP facility and my past working experience with 14 industry team leaders, it has become glaringly 15 apparent that safety and security has always been a 16 top priority.

17 I know that there's going to be a lot of 18 people that come up and speak for good and for bad.

19 I feel like our, I'm very proud of our community, that 20 we're very involved on both sides of it. I know that 21 you will get a lot of good information, a lot of good 22 comments and come to a good decision.

23 But me as the Chief of Police, if this was 24 approved by the Commission, we would welcome to, you 25 know, to endeavor to build the same kind of great NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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42 1 working relationship that we have with the WIPP 2 facility. Thank you.

3 MR. CAMERON: And thank you, Chief 4 Skinner. And is Chief Lopez here? Oh, here he comes.

5 Okay, great.

6 MR. LOPEZ: Good afternoon, as he said, 7 Richard Lopez, Fire Chief. Born and raised in 8 Carlsbad, and honestly I don't even plan on leaving 9 when I retire. I plan on staying here a while, 10 especially with the four grandkids here.

11 Anyways, as Chief Skinner said, we train 12 with WIPP on a regular basis, to the point that with 13 the equipment and the training that we have, Carlsbad 14 Fire Department's Hazmat Team, we're ready to handle 15 radiological release of one ever happened, which the 16 likelihood is not very high. So we're very 17 comfortable with that.

18 On another note, WIPP has been able to 19 assist us in first response around their area. So 20 their fire department, their fire and EMS have 21 provided first response to these incidences until we 22 get there and we can continue on and mitigate that 23 situation.

24 So again, we support this project. I look 25 forward to the facility. I have no reservations about NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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43 1 it. And I appreciate you guys this evening, thank 2 you.

3 MR. CAMERON: And thank you very much, 4 Chief. And is Assistant Chief Moyer here? Okay.

5 Well, in that case, let's go to Don Hancock. And then 6 we'll go to Melanie Deason and Joy Russell. This is 7 Don Hancock.

8 MR. HANCOCK: Good evening, I'm Don 9 Hancock from Southwest Research and Information Center 10 in Albuquerque.

11 The Holtec Environmental Report is the 12 basis for the draft Environment Impact Statement that 13 NRC is going to do. Even a quick review indicates 14 that there are many factual errors in the document, 15 unsupported assertions that are contrary to law, and 16 important omission that casts severe doubt on the 17 reliability of Holtec's application documents, its 18 ability to be truthful and transparent to the public, 19 and its nuclear safety culture.

20 I don't have time to go into all of that, 21 but I do have a handout that's outside. It's called 22 Don't Rely on Holtec. I would be delighted for Holtec 23 to actually respond to that.

24 Holtec also doesn't own any of the spent 25 fuel, doesn't want to own any of the spent fuel, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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44 1 doesn't want to pay for any of the costs of 2 transporting the material. But, and they want the 3 federal taxpayers to pay for it. But the current law 4 does not allow that to happen. So we're in a 5 situation where they're proposing something that 6 legally can't happen without changing the law.

7 Turning to NRC and its responsibility to 8 do this environmental review that's been talked about, 9 a number of, there are many things that could be 10 mentioned about what would be needed in an adequate 11 draft Environmental Impact Statement. I'm going to 12 mention a few of them.

13 An adequate Environmental Impact Statement 14 should provide a comparative safety analysis of the 15 Holtec proposal versus continuing storage at the 16 reactors where the waste is located. You've heard 17 comments tonight about relative safety. NRC documents 18 should actually document a comparative safety 19 analysis.

20 Adequate EIS should provide an analysis of 21 whether continued storage at the reactors meets NRC's 22 regulation. The analysis should include the time 23 frame in which continued storage at existing license 24 sites would not meet the requirements of 10 CFR 51.23, 25 NRC's continuing storage rule.

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45 1 An adequate EIS should discuss whether any 2 or all of the existing 70 licensed ISFSIs at reactor 3 sites are reasonable alternatives for storage. An 4 adequate EIS should consider the impact of the waste 5 never leaving the Holtec site, since there is no 6 repository or other disposal site. And neither Holtec 7 nor NRC can guarantee that there would be such a site.

8 An adequate EIS should consider whether 9 Holtec's site meets the requirements of 10 CFR Part 60 10 for geologic disposal of spent fuel. There is no 11 geologic repository, there's no basis to state that 12 there will ever be such a site. Thus, all the waste 13 that would come here could stay here forever.

14 An adequate EIS should provide the amount 15 of radioactivity in each canister, including the 16 maximum amount and the median amount for the analysis 17 of routine of accident releases during transportation 18 to the site, handling, and storage of the waste at the 19 site. Again, this is something that the Holtec 20 Environmental Report does not include.

21 An adequate EIS will consider the impacts 22 on oil, gas, and potash production, processing, and 23 transportation on the Holtec site. And inversely, an 24 adequate EIS will consider the impacts of routine and 25 accidental releases from the Holtec site on the oil or NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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46 1 gas, potash, dairy, livestock, and other agricultural 2 activities.

3 An adequate EIS will consider the impacts 4 of military and civilian aircraft crashes into the 5 UMAX containers at the site.

6 So we know that these issues have not been 7 adequately addressed in the Holtec EIS. So if there's 8 a lot of work that's going to have to be done to 9 actually address all of those issues that Holtec 10 should have addressed but did not address. So that's 11 a heavy burden that NRC holds that we will be 12 interested in seeing how it does and have further 13 comments on the draft EIS.

14 Finally, there are two basic questions 15 that NRC is not going to answer but need to be 16 strongly considered by people here and all across the 17 nation. First, if the waste is safe where it is, why 18 bring it to New Mexico? Obviously, if it's not safe 19 where it is, that creates difficulties in terms of why 20 is it allowed to be there, how would it be 21 transported, etc.

22 Secondly, if waste storage actually is 23 good for the economy, why do the nuclear reactor 24 communities not want to keep it? Thank you.

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47 1 you, Don.

2 And we have Melanie Deason coming up now 3 and I believe she has a demonstration that she's going 4 to do or bake a cake. I'm not sure what's going on, 5 but here she is.

6 Okay. This is Melanie.

7 MS. DEASON: Thank you. I've been 8 speaking the last couple of nights at other locations 9 in science and I wanted to play a bit with the 10 hydrology around here and give a demo. It's been real 11 serious and heady and I want to give you a visual.

12 Hopefully some of you can see what's going on here.

13 This demo is something that a fifth grader 14 can do, and so be welcome to teach others. And also 15 welcome to New Mexico's underground called playa lakes 16 or New Mexico lakes in Southeast New Mexico. This 17 will be a little demo about the science of hydrology.

18 The glass basin here underneath is like a 19 mixing bowl, clear glass. It represents the playa 20 basin which holds New Mexico's underground water 21 resources, especially around here and up around Las 22 Vegas. These are recharged by playas above including 23 those Holtec is admitted are on their site plus four 24 others nearby.

25 Now the green colander, you know, like NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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48 1 straining spaghetti, that will represent the ground 2 above the water table and aquifers and which allows 3 permeability or migration between these two areas.

4 Now the white rice; I've already poured it 5 to save me time, represents the soil. And it's poured 6 into the colander. Now playas are unique and briefly 7 they recharge our water tables and aquifers.

8 the funnel here, kitchen funnel, 9 represents the draining capability of playa lakes into 10 the underground aquifer. It's like having a big plate 11 with a drain on it, and that big plate could be 12 thousands of acres draining down. And so you have it 13 hanging here on the edge. In this case it will sit 14 right here. It's perfect. My kitchen was well-15 stocked this morning.

16 So the funnel represents the draining 17 capability of our playa lakes into the underground 18 aquifer and what we call in New Mexico our desert 19 lakes. But you don't see them. So I'm going to now 20 open this gallon of water here and I'm going to pour 21 from this unopened gallon.

22 PARTICIPANT: What are we seeing here?

23 MS. DEASON: Water is going down into the 24 aquifer below through the soil, through a special form 25 of hydrolity that playas give us. It's very unusual.

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49 1 Basically it's water. It's clean. Nobody's mussed 2 with it. Go a little more.

3 Now we have Ogallala Aquifer and several 4 others in this region and they serve eight states, the 5 Ogallala does, including New Mexico.

6 Holtec states that their two playas will 7 capture the site's water with a capacity of up to 8 seven-and-a-half inches of rain in one day event if 9 necessary. Now that's a little over an acre-foot of 10 water for those of you who do agricultural farming, 11 etcetera.

12 Now this little bottle represents water 13 from rain and snow being stored on Holtec's site. Now 14 I'm making it red so that we can see it. Since you 15 can't detect radiation with the five senses, it's been 16 dyed with food coloring so we can see it. After all 17 Holtec's site proposes storing the nation's high-level 18 nuclear waste as rods. Now that's pretty hot stuff.

19 However, since their containers need air circulation 20 between the steel and concrete, it will still 21 contaminate the soil nearby regardless. Plus with 22 those vents they grab the air above at ground level.

23 By the way, their canisters are designed for breathing 24 in and out just like we do, and the same air that we 25 breathe.

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50 1 Now let's imagine they've had a rain event 2 or maybe a big snow storm like Goliath a few years ago 3 at Christmas. Let's pour Holtec's water, which we 4 know is radioactive, it's given on that site -- they 5 say they're catching it. We're going to pour it down 6 the drain into the water table below. Now their water 7 table is only 35 to 50 feet below, however, remember 8 their cylinders, like tubes standing upright, they're 9 storing these casks, are buried over 20 feet in the 10 ground. So that's way over halfway to the water table 11 by the reports on emission. And everything below 12 ground is the water table and the aquifer is starting 13 to turn red, you will see here.

14 (Pause.)

15 MS. DEASON: Now remember in real life you 16 can't see it, but it's still there.

17 I think we're good. I don't have to pour 18 the second in there. I think you get the point.

19 Maybe water, if we have a big flood event, 20 it will flood the concrete tower vents too that they 21 have in their design and down their air gaps. Oops.

22 Hydrogen explosion and the concrete tops blow off.

23 Remember Fukushima, Chernobyl. That's what it was 24 about. There was a hydrogen explosion when water got 25 in there.

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51 1 Now let's pretend we're going to drill a 2 well somewhere else. For sake of time I'm not going 3 to do that.

4 MR. CAMERON: Melanie --

5 MS. DEASON: I'm closing.

6 MR. CAMERON: -- I'm going to have to ask 7 you to --

8 MS. DEASON: I'm closing.

9 MR. CAMERON: Okay.

10 MS. DEASON: We're drilling the well. I'm 11 in another state maybe drilling that well. See if I 12 can get in here. I don't want to make a mess. I 13 promised I wouldn't.

14 Anyway, I was going to use the syringe to 15 drill a well; we all know what wells are good for, and 16 suck up some water and put it in a glass. I have to 17 ask who wants to be the first to pour radioactive 18 water onto their crops or feed it to livestock making 19 meat and milk for the families around the nation?

20 Better yet, who wants to be the first to take a drink 21 of this water? Any takers? I've heard some in the 22 room that probably said they would. But be careful 23 you don't get a second chance. Think again and follow 24 the hydrology. It's right here in this fifth grade 25 science project.

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52 1 And thank you all for allowing me the 2 opportunity to give you this simple example. And NRC 3 members, please deny Holtec's application in its 4 entirety. As I've said before the proposal is 5 genocide. The definition is destroy an ethnic group 6 of nation. We in New Mexico and elsewhere, we matter.

7 I'm Melanie Deason. Do not consent.

8 (Applause.)

9 MR. CAMERON: Okay. Thank you. We're 10 going to go to Joy Russell and then Russell Hardy, 11 John Waters, Karen Howard-Winters. This is Joy 12 Russell.

13 MS. RUSSELL: Good evening. Can you hear 14 me? Good.

15 Good evening. My name is Joy Russell.

16 I'm Vice-President of Business Development and 17 Communications for Holtec International. I've been an 18 engineer at Holtec for over 20 years. I want to thank 19 the NRC for the opportunity to come to speak to you 20 this evening. I want to give Holtec's commitment that 21 we will provide quality and timely responses to any 22 questions that you have that you are gathering from 23 the folks here and the other meetings that we had. So 24 we make that commitment to continue to provide timely 25 and quality responses to continue the licensing NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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53 1 process.

2 Holtec already holds 13 licenses from the 3 Nuclear Regulatory Commission for storage systems 4 which are used in the United States.

5 I also want to say it's my pleasure to 6 speak with you this evening. I want to provide you 7 facts about the HI-STORE project. We have a table 8 located right by the door when you came in. I had the 9 pleasure of speaking with several of you when you came 10 in. My colleague Joyce Tomlinson is also here.

11 Please feel free to ask us any questions that you may 12 have. Joyce is also an engineer at Holtec. She is 13 our licensing manager.

14 We're proud to have the partners that we 15 do in the ELEA organization. As you've heard from 16 many of them this evening, they are long-time members 17 of this community. And we were invited by them to 18 come into this community after they evaluated our dry 19 storage system to be determined as the safest and the 20 most secure system that's available in the world. The 21 nuclear community also agrees with that because over 22 60 percent of the nuclear plants in the United States 23 use our storage system.

24 Holtec International's core business is 25 and has been for the past 32 years the safe storage of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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54 1 spent nuclear fuel. That is what we do. We are an 2 American company. We're American-owned. Everything 3 we deploy is manufactured here in the United States.

4 We have a factory in Pittsburgh, a factory in Southern 5 Ohio and a new factory in Camden, New Jersey. We 6 employ around 1,000 people at those factories in the 7 United States. We ship our equipment all over the 8 world. We're the largest exporters of nuclear storage 9 equipment in the world. So we've very proud of that.

10 We're also very proud of our safety 11 record. We have an impeccable safety record. None of 12 our equipment has ever experienced a safety issue.

13 None of our equipment has ever leaked. Never has our 14 equipment ever caused any injury.

15 ELEA selected our system based on its 16 safety and security. We commit that the system that 17 we are deploying is indeed safe and secure. We did 18 provide some information. Again, any additional 19 questions that you may have -- I want to make sure you 20 understand spent nuclear fuel is solid. Our canisters 21 are seal-welded. There is no contamination. Please 22 understand the difference between contamination and 23 radiation. If the system doesn't leak, there's no 24 potential for contamination. I want to make sure 25 everyone understands that concept.

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55 1 The dose that's received from our systems 2 are very low. It's equivalent to a chest X-ray when 3 you're near it. And as you get away from it, as John 4 Heaton said, it's essentially indistinguishable from 5 background radiation.

6 We're very proud to be a part -- to have 7 the opportunity to become a part of this community.

8 As you've heard tonight, this community is rich in 9 knowledge. The WIPP and the URENCO site provide the 10 nuclear IQ that's unmatched in many parts of the 11 country. I applaud you for that.

12 I just want to close by saying that we're 13 proud to offer a temporary, safe and secure storage to 14 spent nuclear fuel from the United States. We don't 15 intend to bring anything in from overseas. It's all 16 from the United States. We commit to being good 17 stewards of the environment and we commit to being 18 good neighbors. And again I think you for this 19 opportunity and we -- I again echo my commitment to 20 the NRC for the licensing process. Thank you.

21 MR. CAMERON: Thank you. Thank you very 22 much, Joy.

23 (Applause.)

24 MR. CAMERON: This is Russell.

25 MR. HARDY: Good evening. My name is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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56 1 Russell Hardy. I'm a lifelong resident of Southeast 2 New Mexico. I support the proposed project for the 3 interim storage of spent nuclear fuel at the site 4 proposed between here and Hobbs. The reasons that I 5 support this project are fourfold: No. 1, I believe 6 that the NRC-approved Holtec HI-STORE UMAX canister 7 system is a very robust containment device that will 8 keep the spent nuclear fuel in a safe condition once 9 it's placed in the interim storage facility.

10 Second, I believe that the proposed site 11 is a safe place to hold the spent nuclear fuel because 12 it is geologically stable and has been contractually 13 withdrawn from potash, oil and gas activities for the 14 duration of the time that the facility will be in 15 operation.

16 Third, I believe that the local region is 17 supportive of and will continue to be supportive of 18 nuclear-related activities and is well-positioned to 19 complement this project by having an abundance of 20 nuclear trained workers, engineers, contractors and 21 emergency responders.

22 Lastly, as the director of the Carlsbad 23 Environmental Monitoring and Research Center, an 24 entity of New Mexico State University that performs an 25 independent environmental monitoring program in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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57 1 conjunction with the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant, I 2 know firsthand that there will be extensive 3 environmental monitoring activities conducted with the 4 licensing of this proposed facility, as well as 5 continued environmental monitoring after spent nuclear 6 fuel is delivered and then placed at the facility.

7 This will ensure that the workers, the communities and 8 the environments are safe and readily informed of any 9 potential releases or detections at above background 10 levels of alpha, beta and gamma-emitting isotopes.

11 My only recommendation is that through the 12 scoping and licensing process the NRC mandate as a 13 part of this scoping and licensing process that Holtec 14 be required to provide sufficient funding for the 15 duration of this project such that an independent 16 monitoring organization like the Carlsbad 17 Environmental Monitoring and Research Center be 18 engaged to work on behalf of the communities of Hobbs 19 and Carlsbad, Eddy and Lea Counties, to independently 20 monitor the proposed site and later the operational 21 facility for the presence of radioactive isotopes 22 and/or fission products that are likely to be 23 associated with the interim storage of spent nuclear 24 fuel.

25 Having an independent organization such as NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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58 1 CEMRC perform an independent environmental monitoring 2 program in tandem with any licensing-required 3 environmental monitoring provides a level of 4 redundancy with respect to the environmental data 5 being collected and analyzed, and more importantly 6 ensures a level of honesty and transparency with 7 respect to the results that are communicated to the 8 regulators and the public at large. As a community we 9 witnessed the importance of having an independent 10 environmental monitoring program during the 2014 11 radiation release event at the WIPP facility, and I 12 believe it's imperative to emulate this independence 13 with respect to any proposed siting of any nuclear-14 related repository in the future. Thank you.

15 MR. CAMERON: Thank you very much.

16 John, you can -- if it's easier to put it 17 in there, you can just put it in. There you go.

18 Okay. Go ahead.

19 MR. WATERS: First of all my name is John 20 Waters. I'm from Carlsbad. I've lived here most of 21 my life. I want to thank you for coming to Carlsbad 22 and listening to us. Certainly there are folks from 23 other places, but the stakeholders here in Carlsbad, 24 whether they are for or against it, really appreciate 25 you spending the time to come here and talk to the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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59 1 community and listen to the community. So again on 2 behalf of the community, thank you for coming.

3 My wife and I were raised here in 4 Carlsbad. In turn we've back to Carlsbad, raised our 5 four children. We chose to come back to Carlsbad to 6 raise our kids after WIPP opened, but when I was here 7 throughout high school and throughout the early parts 8 of my career I was here and watched WIPP. And you've 9 heard a lot of our Carlsbad citizens talk with pride 10 about WIPP. It's because we are proud.

11 We're proud that here in New Mexico, in 12 Carlsbad, specifically in Southeastern New Mexico, 13 that we took that mantle of protection on and we 14 brought a project in that we knew helped save a major 15 problem in the United States. It seems a little 16 wacky, but when we go to Washington, D.C., we're very 17 proud of it and we don't mind; it doesn't matter who 18 we're talking to, telling people that we're proud of 19 that.

20 And we're solution seekers here in this 21 community. We're very busy. We do a lot of different 22 things. We have a very diverse community. But one of 23 the things that I'm very proud of is that we don't 24 look at other places and say, oh, leave that over 25 there. That's their problem. We don't. We take --

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60 1 New Mexico, we were there at the beginning of the 2 nuclear age and I'm proud to say that Carlsbad is 3 helping at the end of the fuel cycle.

4 And solutions are what I'm here to talk 5 about. You're aware that Carlsbad, Eddy County, went 6 out and they worked really hard. A lot of people have 7 talked about what we went through to bring WIPP in.

8 It wasn't just, oh, my gosh, we need money or we need 9 jobs. It was a very long process that we educated 10 ourselves and I'm proud to say that the community is 11 very educated. At the time I worked for the National 12 Park Service and you couldn't probably find a group of 13 more anti-nuclear folks on the plant.

14 But one of the things that I was very 15 excited about is that the folks from the nuclear 16 industry came forward and talked to us to educate us.

17 It was a process to where we brought up questions. A 18 lot of people were very educated. They brought up a 19 lot of questions and they never failed to come back 20 with answers. They never failed to come back after, 21 hey, we've looked into this. And I want to say that 22 that's something that I'm very proud of is that the 23 community has educated themselves. You've got a well-24 educated community here, and what that's produced is 25 that's produced a very solid workforce that is one of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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61 1 the most adept at working in the nuclear industry in 2 the entire world. I would stack them up against 3 anybody.

4 We have two national laboratories with 5 lots of employees here. We have more Ph.D.s per 6 capital than any town in New Mexico save maybe Los 7 Alamos. A very smart group of people that are here.

8 I'm very proud of that. Our children learn from these 9 folks. It's just a tremendous place to live, and it 10 is our little slice of heaven and I think that it's 11 great.

12 We've cleaned up 22 sites with WIPP around 13 the world -- around the United States. I mean, if 14 you're in Argonne National Laboratory in Chicago, you 15 can thank WIPP. If you've been to -- and I have a 16 background in environmental biology and one of the 17 things they always taught us about was Rocky -- the --

18 your Rocky Flats area in Colorado, and that's cleaned 19 up now. It's cleaned up because the people in 20 Carlsbad worked, learned and fought hard enough to get 21 something in here that was a solution for the country.

22 Proud of that.

23 We have another solution here in 24 Southeastern New Mexico and I'm really excited to say 25 that -- you know, there is a problem out there, and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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62 1 we're not here to debate the nuclear energy industry.

2 We're here to talk about the waste and find a safe 3 solution for it. Right now it's a temporary solution, 4 and we realizes that. We've heard a lot of people 5 talk about the possibility of a repository. And it's 6 a while off. I mean, anybody that looks at that, that 7 reads the documentation, you know that a repository is 8 out there, but it's out there in the future.

9 I have a little more positive outlook on 10 that. From an economic development standpoint I see 11 the opportunity here. I see the opportunity of taking 12 care of this waste in a safe manner temporarily until 13 one of two things happens: We all know about the 14 repository. Nuclear energy, it's no carbon emission, 15 it's a great source of baseload energy. And you know 16 the one issue we got to deal with is what do we do 17 with that waste afterward? That's what we're to talk 18 about.

19 You can reprocess it. Technology and 20 economics are coming to such a place that it will be 21 feasible in the United States to reprocess this, to 22 recycle it. Eighty percent of that power is left in 23 that rod when it's pulled out of our reactor.

24 Wouldn't it be great if we couldn't just recycle that 25 and end up with a soup can full of waste instead of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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63 1 something larger than that? I don't look at it as 2 waste. I see it as a resource.

3 And it's something in the future that if 4 you're going to look at the possible negative things 5 in an EIS, you got to look at the possible positive 6 things as well. This gives our country another 7 solution, maybe a more permanent solution to deal with 8 that nuclear waste in the future. And I think that's 9 something worth mentioning and it's something to look 10 forward to in the future from our perspective to solve 11 another problem.

12 The operation of a such a facility would 13 also offer an opportune place to study the aging 14 process in the -- with the fuel and the containers.

15 It's my hope that the NRC's Regulatory Research 16 Program would take advantage of the central facility 17 as the Department of Energy has with WIPP and fund 18 some of those research projects to take a look at and 19 learn as much as they can about the temporary solution 20 so they learn more about the permanent solution.

21 So again, I have comments that are written 22 here. I certainly will submit those, but I tried to 23 summarize them. Thank you again for coming to 24 Carlsbad.

25 (Applause.)

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64 1 MR. CAMERON: Okay. Thank you. Thank 2 you, John.

3 We're going to go to Karen Howard-Winters 4 now and then Kyle Marksteiner, Anthony Lee Alanzo and 5 Ralph Jennings. This is Karen.

6 MS. HOWARD-WINTERS: Hi, y'all. I'm back.

7 (Laughter.)

8 MR. CAMERON: And you -- okay. You're 9 going to go to the mic?

10 MS. HOWARD-WINTERS: Yes.

11 MR. CAMERON: Yes, okay.

12 MS. HOWARD-WINTERS: Hi, y'all in 13 Carlsbad. Thank you for having me and thank you, 14 Nuclear Regulatory Commission for listening to me 15 again tonight. And I know there's a lot of folks out 16 there in Carlsbad. I'm from Odessa, Texas. Y'all may 17 not think that I'm a stakeholder here, but yes I am, 18 too, because y'all are thinking about putting this 19 project on an aquifer that I use, too. So don't think 20 that I'm not a stakeholder in this project because 21 y'all are thinking about Holtec putting this project 22 on oil that I use. So that makes my livelihood in 23 Odessa, Texas. So don't y'all think that I'm not a 24 stakeholder, too, because I am. Okay?

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65 1 Environmental Impact Statement. There's a little 2 lizard that was causing the oil field a whole lot of 3 trouble back in 2011-2012. It was called the Dunes 4 Sagebrush Lizard and it was causing -- oh, the oil 5 people, they -- oh, they don't like him at all. It 6 was causing them a lot of trouble back then. But I 7 don't know what happened to this little guy back then 8 or what's happened to him now, but I'd sure like for 9 y'all to check him out, because I'm pretty sure that 10 he hangs around this area, too. It's called the Dunes 11 Sagebrush Lizard. And they were going to make him an 12 endangered species back then. But I think the oil 13 people kind of got involved in that and -- I don't 14 know what happened to him. Anyway, he became 15 unendangered. So anyway, I think he's probably still 16 endangered, but anyway not according to oil.

17 Okay. So at any rate I'm worried about 18 him because that ground out there where Holtec is 19 going to put this stuff in the ground gets really, 20 really hot, so I worry about that little guy, you 21 know, and what's going to happen to him and all of his 22 little lizard babies and what's going to happen to him 23 and his family, her and her family. So maybe we ought 24 to check the environment about the Dune Sagebrush 25 Lizard and what's going to happen to -- how it's going NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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66 1 to impact him and her.

2 Now as far as a ideal site, yes, it's only 3 interim. And there's a lot of fracking that goes on 4 around here, too. And I have family that lives in 5 Oklahoma and Oklahoma never used to have any 6 earthquakes, but since they started fracking there 7 there's a whole lot of earthquakes that have been 8 going on. They had only three way back when before 9 they started fracking, but now that they've started 10 fracking they've had well over 100. So that's kind of 11 something to think about because if we're going to 12 have some earthquakes around here with all the 13 fracking that's going on, that's something to think 14 about when we start thinking about putting this stuff 15 in the ground here.

16 Okay. Social injustice and the railroads.

17 These rails, like I said before, are not meant to 18 carry this load. They are old, they're antiquated, 19 we're going to be carrying across D- bridges. Who's 20 going to -- where's the money going to come from to 21 beef up these rails? Who's going to pay for that?

22 And who's going to pay for -- when there is some kind 23 of radioactive -- oh, let's say a rail car falls off 24 the track or whatever and there is a radioactive spill 25 or something, just an accident that nobody's counting NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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67 1 on. Because when we're talking about odds, maybe 2 Holtec has never had an accident, but just because 3 they've never had an accident yet doesn't mean they're 4 not going to have one. We can't count on that.

5 So who's going to pay for that? What kind 6 of insurance is Holtec going to have to pay for 7 damages done to folks that in the farming industry or 8 whatever -- do I need to wrap up?

9 MR. CAMERON: Yes, if you could, please.

10 MS. HOWARD-WINTERS: Yes, sir. For the 11 farming industry or folks that are damaged by a 12 radiation spill or whatever? At any rate, I think 13 that pretty much -- I think I pretty much got 14 everything. Oh, I do want to say one more thing.

15 These caverns out here are a beautiful natural wonder 16 and it would really be a shame if anything were to 17 happen to harm them. And once the genie's out of the 18 bottle, you can't put him back in. Thank you.

19 (Applause.)

20 MS. HOWARD-WINTERS: I'm Karen Howard-21 Winters and I appreciate your time. Thank you very 22 much.

23 MR. CAMERON: Thank you. Thank you, 24 Karen.

25 Kyle?

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68 1 MR. MARKSTEINER: I might register to 2 speak a second time so I can stand up some more. This 3 feels good.

4 I want to thank you all for coming out 5 here today. We've got a lot of out-of-town visitors 6 and we welcome them all to Carlsbad.

7 My name is Kyle Marksteiner and I've been 8 in Carlsbad for about 20 years now. I first moved 9 here as a reporter for the local newspaper and when I 10 got here there was this project I was supposed to 11 learn about called WIPP, Waste Isolation Pilot Plants, 12 and I thought what is this? I don't know about it.

13 So I went through the newspaper archives; 14 they actually had old microfiche back then, and I 15 found a column written by the former publisher named 16 Ned Cantwell. It was a fascinating column. It was 17 right when WIPP was first introduced to the community.

18 And at the time there were a few people who were 19 hesitant about WIPP and a few opposed to WIPP. There 20 were anti-nuclear activists from other parts of the 21 state ready to go against WIPP. There were people at 22 the meetings holding signs, similar signs.

23 But what Mr. Cantwell suggested is that 24 the citizens of Carlsbad at that time just get all the 25 facts. He didn't take a stand for or against the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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69 1 project. He said Carlsbad residents should keep an 2 open mind and keep themselves informed. How 3 revolutionary is that, just to suggest that instead of 4 automatically opposing something because it feels like 5 we should be afraid it that we keep an open mind and 6 inform ourselves?

7 WIPP has turned out to be a huge success, 8 and I say that in -- considering and including the 9 events of 2014. The residents of this community 10 helped get WIPP open and confidently helped get WIPP 11 back open over the past few years.

12 This project, I encourage my fellow 13 Carlsbad residents to follow the original 14 recommendation of Ned Cantwell to reject the NIMBY 15 approach and to keep an open mind. Show me how this 16 will be done safely and I will support it.

17 I would also ask my Carlsbad residents 18 here tonight to be cautious about the tactics utilized 19 by some anti-nuclear groups. The reality is that we 20 have well-funded organizers from Texas and Northern 21 New Mexico here today to do what they can to heighten 22 the illusion of opposition to this project. These 23 same groups will then go to other communities and do 24 everything they can there to also delay or halt other 25 projects all associated with the nuclear industry.

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70 1 I've stayed in Carlsbad for the past 20 2 years because I believe the residents here are better 3 than that. We put science first. We get all the 4 facts and we keep an open mind. I encourage everyone 5 to do so with the consolidated interim storage 6 facility. Thank you.

7 (Applause.)

8 MR. CAMERON: Okay. Thank you. Thank 9 you, Kyle.

10 Anthony? Anthony Lee Alanzo is coming up 11 and then we'll hear from Ralph Jennings.

12 Anthony?

13 MR. ALANZO: Good evening. My name is 14 Anthony Lee Alanzo. I was recently running for city 15 councilman here in Carlsbad, New Mexico. A 16 opportunity came for me, but I'm very proud to be a 17 citizen of Carlsbad and I thank you guys coming here 18 to Carlsbad and to listen to the people that are 19 opposed for it and the ones that are disagreeing to 20 it. Thank you for the opportunity.

21 It's been very good to me and my family 22 for the years that I've been here. I love Carlsbad.

23 This is a community I love. I've raised two of my 24 sons here. I've been married 20 years. And I'm also 25 an employee of the WIPP site. I'm actually an RH and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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71 1 a CH waste handler.

2 And hearing the design of Holtec, it is 3 almost similar to what we do with RH shipments, and 4 I'm very strongly proud of what I do, especially with 5 my colleagues. If you heard our councilman J.J.

6 Chaves, he pretty well understands the concept. He's 7 one of my colleagues up there at the site. And 8 hearing your project, I've heard of it, we've talked 9 about it at WIPP and I'm more than willing to give a 10 great opportunity not only for me, but for also for my 11 family to get the opportunity to educate us, because 12 we are educated to keeping this nuclear issue that we 13 have across the nation. And we've done a great job.

14 In the 20 years that I've been at WIPP I 15 seen the first shipment come in. I was part of the 16 project when we reopened. And you guys actually 17 overlooked us. And we did a great excellent job of 18 reopening WIPP and we're still running the project.

19 And seeing this new opportunity for Carlsbad and also 20 the local areas in Hobbs, it's been wonderful to all 21 of us. And now that we have another opportunity, at 22 least my children will have an opportunity to not only 23 get educated, but also have an opportunity in the 24 future to find a great facility also to store nuclear 25 waste here and clean up the sites.

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72 1 I mean, I didn't think I was going to 2 capitalize on what John Waters said. Clearly we've 3 cleaned up quite a few sites. I've been at those 4 milestones. I was part of that project. And seeing 5 that we have another opportunity for us to expand the 6 nuclear industry, we have the place for it. Some may 7 oppose to it, but I highly recommend and I'm very, 8 very proud of what we do here in Carlsbad.

9 If you take in consideration, please look 10 at us. We've got the knowledge. We have the IQ here.

11 I've got the colleagues. I stand behind then 100 12 percent. And this is the reason why I came tonight to 13 let you guys know we have the knowledge. And now if 14 you guys give another opportunity, that even expands 15 our mission. Thank you.

16 (Applause.)

17 MR. CAMERON: Okay. Thanks. Thanks, 18 Anthony.

19 And we have Ralph Jennings coming up. And 20 then we're going to go to Kevin Kamps, Karen Hadden, 21 Charlene Hernandez, Dave Rogers and Gail Seydel.

22 MR. JENNINGS: My name is Ralph Jennings.

23 I spent 15 years in the Navy, 9 of those in nuclear 24 submarines, so I'm exposed to radiations of various 25 difference.

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73 1 One of the things that I saw here was 2 WIPP. I became aware of WIPP back in 1976 when I was 3 a high school student at Thomas Jefferson in El Paso.

4 That's where I'm originally from. The -- I had to do 5 a toxicology report on nuclear radiation as part of my 6 continuing education to college and eventually went 7 and submitted this to the Dallas Symposium, Science 8 Symposium, and got selected. I went into the Navy, 9 did my time, came back out, came back to Carlsbad. I 10 recruited here 1984 through '87.

11 WIPP was still having a hard time trying 12 to get out of the ground and into the -- putting waste 13 in there after 10,000 that they -- everybody wanted 14 and everybody had ideas of. Well, the time came when 15 they finally put nuclear waste underground. That was 16 one milestone that I saw that was the best thing that 17 had happened for the country. Not for Carlsbad, but 18 for the country. There's no place to put a lot of 19 this trash. We got to select one place in the world.

20 This is probably the most studied area in the whole 21 country for radiation.

22 I would suggest that we keep an open mind.

23 This nuclear waste, there's got to be a better place.

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74 1 thing. You're close to water. Look what happened to 2 Fujiyama. They're close to water and they got water 3 -- now radiation almost every part of the ocean. It's 4 not going to go away, folks, but we can keep our 5 country clear and eliminate it to one certain 6 location. And that's what I'm going to do. We have 7 the Gnome Project here, so it's already been 8 radioactive. For you guys forgot Gnome Project, that 9 was a nice cavern for fracking. Thank you very much.

10 (Applause.)

11 MR. CAMERON: Okay. Thanks, Ralph.

12 We're going to have Kevin Kamps come up 13 now and then we're going to hear from Karen Hadden, 14 Charlene Hernandez, Dave Rogers and Gail Seydel.

15 MR. KAMPS: Good evening. My name is 16 Kevin Kamps with Beyond Nuclear and I've spoken at the 17 previous meetings, so this will be a supplement to 18 that. And I wanted to get back to this issue of 19 temporary or permanent.

20 So regarding the risks of a phrase 21 "institutional control being lost," the risks of loss 22 of institutional control. And what this means is that 23 this facility instead of being temporary could become 24 de facto permanent surface storage, or a parking lot 25 dump. And if abandoned and containers failing and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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75 1 releasing catastrophic amounts of hazardous 2 radioactivity into the environment -- that is a 3 distinct risk with this proposal.

4 Loss of institutional control is 5 guaranteed to take place over a long enough period of 6 time. No society can last forever. In fact, the very 7 oldest human institutions are at most a few to several 8 thousand years old such as Roman Catholicism, 9 Christianity, Tibetan Buddhism and Judaism, to name a 10 few examples, and of course Native American cultures, 11 which date much longer than that, actually. But 12 highly radioactive irradiated nuclear fuel is 13 hazardous for a million years. It's deadly 14 forevermore, in other words.

15 The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency 16 was forced to acknowledge this million-year hazard by 17 a court order over a decade ago. EPA had wanted to 18 cut off regulations at Yucca Mountain, Nevada, the 19 proposed national burial dump, after just 10,000 20 years, but a coalition of environmental groups, 21 including years in public citizen, as well as the 22 State of Nevada, challenged the EPA legally. But even 23 a million years of hazard is a huge underestimate.

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76 1 fuel. It's ultra-hazardous and it has a 15.7 million 2 half-life, which means 157 million years or more of 3 hazardous persistence.

4 The Department of Energy in its February 5 2002 Yucca Mountain final Environmental Impact 6 Statement warned that irradiated nuclear fuel, if 7 abandoned at reactor sites with a loss of 8 institutional control, would eventually leak 9 catastrophic amounts of radioactivity into the 10 environment over time as dry casks containing it 11 failed as due to corrosion, exposure to the elements, 12 etcetera. They were saying that in the context of 13 trying to sell the Yucca Mountain dump to the rest of 14 the country. You'd better get rid of it quick before 15 the worst happens. But the same of course would be 16 true at an abandoned centralized or consolidated so-17 called interim storage facility such as here at 18 Holtec.

19 Up to 173,000 metric tons of highly-20 radioactive waste, more than twice what currently 21 exists, could leak into the environment from this 22 shallowly sub-grade storage at this location, and that 23 would be truly catastrophic. The forever-deadly 24 radioactive wastes would blow with the wind and flow 25 with the water harming people and other living things NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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77 1 downwind, downstream, up the food chain and down the 2 generations forevermore.

3 Forevermore happens to the title of a 1986 4 book by Barlett and Steele, subtitled Nuclear Waste in 5 America. The book contains a compelling chapter about 6 the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant located so close to 7 the targeted Holtec site.

8 WIPP, as has been mentioned tonight, made 9 claims about start clean, stay clean and the supposed 10 impossibility of leaks over 10,000 years, or even 11 200,000 years, but it leaked after only 15 years.

12 Holtec has made similar claims about centralized 13 interim storage. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me 14 twice, shame on me.

15 And I'd like to conclude with a warning 16 from two whistleblowers, one an industry whistleblower 17 named Oscar Shirani and another, an NRC whistleblower 18 named Dr. Ross Landsman, regarding quality assurance 19 on the Holtec containers, which is non-existent 20 actually. They -- Shirani led a team of Holtec user 21 group utilities that inspected that Pittsburgh factory 22 that Joy Russell mentioned earlier tonight, and in a 23 short three-day period they documented nine categories 24 of quality assurance violation on the fabrication of 25 these containers. The NRC design criteria are NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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78 1 inadequate to begin with and these quality assurance 2 violations associated with Holtec that NRC has done 3 nothing about in 18 years after they were documented 4 risks a catastrophic radioactivity release.

5 Shirani questioned the structural 6 integrity of these containers sitting still at zero 7 miles per hour, let along going 60 miles per hour down 8 the railways. Thank you very much.

9 (Applause.)

10 MR. CAMERON: Okay. Thank you, Kevin.

11 And this is Karen Hadden coming up. And 12 then we're going to go to Charlene Hernandez.

13 MS. HADDEN: Good evening. My name is 14 Karen Hadden and I'm with the Sustainable Energy and 15 Economic Development Coalition. I'm one of those 16 outside agitators that people have been talking about; 17 and proud of it, and I want to tell you why I'm here.

18 First of all, we've been working in 19 coalition with folks in Texas and New Mexico. We've 20 been invited to be part of this work because we all 21 share the love of this region. We have a proposal for 22 a site in Texas as well. They're both a risk to this 23 region. And while there's a border lying in between, 24 this is the same area of the country. We share a lot 25 in common. We love our communities. We want to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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79 1 protect them. We want to be safe. We love our 2 families. We share those values, and we need to move 3 forward with that in mind.

4 I am unhappy about some of the statements 5 made earlier that somehow those who do not favor 6 bringing the nation's radioactive waste to this 7 community are ill-informed or are fear mongering. In 8 fact, the people I know that are working on this issue 9 spend a great deal of time diving into documents, 10 studying, doing the homework, asking the questions.

11 And this is a project of huge magnitude that could 12 impact the future of the entire country and it should 13 not be taken lightly.

14 We should be studying. We should know.

15 I think that the environmental report should include 16 the SMU study that was just done about this region of 17 the world having problems with the land rising and 18 falling. I mean, that's an issue here in Carlsbad.

19 The trains that would carry this 20 radioactive waste and their rail cars, they would be 21 very heavy. I have read 196,000 tons and up. The 22 rails are rated for 143,000. This is heavier than the 23 rails are rated for. So you've got a sinkhole here.

24 And I'm sorry, but I think it's an important image.

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80 1 happens? I mean I think that should be analyzed in 2 the environmental report, because it's the things that 3 you don't think of. It's the things that we didn't 4 count on, that we didn't plan for. We have to look at 5 those on the front end. It's not good enough to find 6 out afterwards that, oh, we were wrong.

7 And you know, mistakes happen and I'm not 8 casting aspersions, but the WIPP site had a very 9 serious accident that cost billions of dollars and put 10 people at risk. People had health impacts. So we 11 can't afford to have those kind of accidents. And 12 this is not WIPP waste. This is the fuel rods from 13 inside nuclear reactors that come out of the reactor 14 a million times more radioactive than the fuel that 15 went in.

16 So we have an inflatable prop that we've 17 been using. It's quite large, about 16 feet long, 8 18 feet tall. That's the kind of waste we're talking 19 about. This is not small. It's very heavy, very 20 large. Each rail car would carry as much plutonium as 21 was in the bomb dropped on Nagasaki. It is not in 22 bomb form. No one is saying that. But just for 23 perspective we're talking about a lot of radiation.

24 This is not something that can be taken lightly.

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81 1 is three feet away from unshielded waste, they would 2 be immediately incapacitated and would die within a 3 week. That's not me. That's the authorities. This 4 waste can cause health impacts, cancers of various 5 kinds. It can cause genetic damage leading to birth 6 defects, permanent changes to our DNA. These things 7 need to be looked at.

8 Now if this is fear mongering, I want to 9 know why considering the health and safety of the 10 community is fear mongering. I resent that. This is 11 looking out for the health and safety of people and 12 wildlife.

13 I'll wrap in a minute.

14 Okay. The other things that need to be 15 included in the environmental report is a clear total 16 number of tons of waste because there is ambiguity in 17 this report. There is also a lot of information 18 missing. The most recent version of the environment 19 report is much smaller than the first one. Both of 20 them are available in the library here. And you can 21 see that it has shrunk. I'm very concerned about what 22 got left out. I think what needs to be included is 23 the Ogallala Aquifer, the depth at which it is, where 24 it is. Under the site, near the site needs to be 25 clarified. There's very little discussion about that.

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82 1 Also how much water goes into Lake Laguna Gatuna and 2 other playas and how much comes down.

3 I'll wrap up quickly.

4 But with groundwater, subsurface water 35 5 to 50 feet underneath the ground and canisters that 6 come down however deep they're coming down -- somebody 7 help me out. So in Texas the entire Radioactive Waste 8 Division at the TCEQ, the Texas Commission on 9 Environmental Quality, voted that the agency should 10 not approve the license application for waste control 11 specialists to have even low-level waste because there 12 was only 14 feet of water -- of distance before they 13 could hit water.

14 MR. CAMERON: And, Karen, I'm sorry, but 15 we're going --

16 MS. HADDEN: I am wrapping up. I am 17 wrapping up.

18 MR. CAMERON: Well, you said you were 19 wrapping up and you're not.

20 MS. HADDEN: I am wrapping up.

21 MR. CAMERON: So we're going to bring 22 Charlene on.

23 MS. HADDEN: I'm wrapping up.

24 MR. CAMERON: Okay.

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83 1 recommended denying the license. Three employees quit 2 over that. I think we should be looking at how much 3 distance there is to water and whether it could shut 4 off the cooling systems which are supposed to be air 5 flow. Thank you.

6 MR. CAMERON: Okay.

7 (Applause.)

8 MR. CAMERON: And this is Charlene 9 Hernandez.

10 MS. HERNANDEZ: Yes, I'll introduce 11 myself. Charlene Hernandez. And for those Spanish 12 speaking people here, yo soy Charlene Hernandez. I am 13 a semi-retired RN. I was born in Lincoln County. I 14 moved to California. Then I came back here in 2007 15 and I was shocked to find that this was the situation 16 in my state of my birth.

17 Okay. I will begin with this information 18 of which I did begin to do my own self-education, and 19 these are some of the things that I found. I wasn't 20 looking for them, but they showed up. And then I did 21 do -- take some action to see if we could change the 22 situation a little bit.

23 The latest estimate for clean-up at LANL 24 is 2.9 billion over 19 years. And I'm going to read 25 this a little bit about clean up at Los Alamos. That NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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84 1 LANL is Los Alamos. "The Federal Government now 2 estimates that it will cost 2.9 billion through the 3 year 2035 to clean up the radioactive and hazardous 4 waste left over from decades of nuclear weapons work 5 at Los Alamos National Laboratory. That's on top of 6 3.2 billion already spent on clean-up work at LANA 7 according to presentation made Wednesday." And this 8 is an old article. Well anyhow, I will end that part 9 right there because this is a paper article that I 10 found.

11 Another thing, another article. "UT 12 Research Links Most Recent Texas Quakes to Oil 13 Activity." "Dallas. A new study by researchers at 14 the University of Texas at Austin concludes that human 15 activity, particularly oil and gas production, has 16 been a factor in earthquakes throughout the state for 17 nearly 100 years. The study's conclusions are in a 18 paper to be published Wednesday in the journal 19 Seismological Research Letters. The Dallas Morning 20 News reported the study concludes that manmade 21 earthquakes in Texas began in 1925 and that activity 22 associated with oil and gas production almost 23 certainly or probably triggered 59 percent of the 24 earthquake in the state in 1975 and 2015 including 25 recent seismic activity in North Texas. Another 28 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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85 1 percent of the quakes were possibly triggered by oil 2 and gas exploration production and just 13 percent 3 were caused naturally."

4 Now, this area is not a stable area. Most 5 recently I learned that Fort Stanton has discovered 6 some caves 30 miles long from one end of Fort Stanton 7 all the way to underneath the airport in Ruidoso.

8 Caves. Then I talked to cousins in Lincoln County and 9 they said, Charlene, those caves go all the way to 10 Carlsbad. I said I see.

11 And then you think about the water -- what 12 you call, the bottomless lakes. Okay. Potential for 13 problems. I don't think it's a safe thing.

14 I want to go onto another thing real 15 quick. This is another issue I found. "The civil 16 rights complained to EPA about Triassic Park 13 years 17 and no resolution. The 202 complained that allegedly 18 the department discriminated against Chaves County 19 residents on the basis of race, color and national 20 origin and violation of the Title V of the Civil 21 Rights Act of 1964. During the Triassic Park 22 permitting process CARD alleged that the department 23 did not examine possible disparate impacts on the 24 basis of race, ethnicity and conducted an 25 administrative process in a manner hostile to Spanish-NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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86 1 speaking residents. Chaves County residents are 2 mostly Hispanic New Mexicans and New Mexicans of 3 Mexican origin. A high percentage live in poverty and 4 infant mortality rates are high. The complaint also 5 alleged the department obstructed -- well, anyway 6 CARD.

7 All of this is on the computer. This is 8 stuff that I found, okay, trying to educate myself.

9 And finally, here's one thing. "Federal 10 Report Slams Safety Lapses at New Mexico Nuclear 11 Facility." All this. HR 994 in the House of 12 Representatives. Ugh, a bill to amend the Radiation 13 Exposure Compensation Act. That's the RECA Act. Look 14 that up on the computer. The RECA Act, New Mexico.

15 And finally, we didn't discuss the permit 16 which is the license request. There are 10 parts to 17 the permit. I have not yet heard the name of this 18 project and I don't even know what -- like for 19 example, No. 1, general permit conditions, 20.41. NMAC 20 incorporating -- well, that's in regulations anyway.

21 But I will give these to you so that you can review 22 them and look at -- and think about this issues 23 because they're a reality. Thank you very much.

24 MR. CAMERON: Thank you.

25 (Applause.)

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87 1 MS. HERNANDEZ: And thank you all for 2 being here.

3 MR. CAMERON: And Dave Rogers and then 4 Gail Seydel and then Danny Cross.

5 Okay. We're going onto the next speaker.

6 And so the NRC staff has to give their attention.

7 NRC staff, we're going to go onto the next 8 speaker, so let's pay attention to that.

9 And, Charlene, if you could give that to 10 them later on so that we can go on with the meeting?

11 MR. ROGERS: Good evening and thank you 12 for coming to Carlsbad. My name is Dave Rogers. I 13 have been a resident of this community for 16 years as 14 a local pastor and hospice chaplain. My family lives 15 here. I have children here, grandchildren here and my 16 wife and I intend to live here for the rest of our 17 lives. We love Carlsbad.

18 But what I want to share with you is a 19 story from my own family. It's about my late-20 grandfather Richard Caldwell Rogers. Grand-dad fought 21 in World War II. He was a Navy Seabee in the South 22 Pacific during the war. And professionally he was an 23 electrical engineer and worked his entire civilian 24 career in Kentucky Utilities. But one of the things 25 that grand dad always shared with us from his NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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88 1 experience in the war was being in the South Pacific; 2 quite some distance from Japan mind you, but still in 3 the South Pacific, when Hiroshima and Nagasaki were 4 bombed.

5 When he came back working in the 6 electrical industry for Kentucky Utilities he would 7 always say that the real problem with nuclear power 8 was that it was introduced to the world in such an 9 unconscionable horrific manner and that the use of 10 nuclear weaponry to introduce the world to the 11 potential of nuclear would forever create a fear 12 factor that would be very difficult to overcome and 13 very easy to exploit.

14 I will not say that nuclear is perfectly 15 safe and wonderful and I certainly recognize that it 16 is dangerous. I don't think anybody in this room 17 would say that nuclear is not dangerous. That's why 18 there are so many very strong safety precautions put 19 in place. But I also remember, just as an example, in 20 the 2014 accident that happened at WIPP when even 21 reputable organizations across the United States were 22 showing images of this toxic death radioactive plume 23 that was going to take out half of the United States, 24 which obviously was fear mongering. It never 25 happened.

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89 1 Look at the facts. Do the science. Also 2 look at the safety record of the nuclear industry as 3 a whole. Yes, it has its problems, but as a safety 4 record it's probably one of the safest industries on 5 the planet. There are a lot of dangers, but there is 6 also a lot of potential. And as one who raises his 7 family here and plans to stay here, who loves Carlsbad 8 and also who has a great appreciation for the sage 9 wisdom of my late-grandfather, I am in support of 10 this. All I ask is listen to the facts, not the fear.

11 Thank you.

12 (Applause.)

13 MR. CAMERON: Okay. Thank you, Dave.

14 Thank you.

15 And this is Gail.

16 MS. SEYDEL: Hey, folks. Thanks. I think 17 I'm a known quantity to most of you having spoken to 18 many of you in Roswell. And thanks again for coming 19 out. Can you hear me -- am I --

20 MR. CAMERON: That's good.

21 MS. SEYDEL: Okay. There you go.

22 So I guess I am one of those outside 23 agitators. I live south of Albuquerque. I'm proud to 24 be one of those outside agitators. I live south of 25 Albuquerque in a farming community about a little less NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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90 1 than two miles from the railroad tracks. And like 2 many people here, my home is my major investment in my 3 life. And if there to be an accident along those 4 railroad tracks, I would lose probably everything. Do 5 I'm hoping that you will -- in your socio and economic 6 area of inquiry that you will please find ways to 7 assure that Holtec and insurance companies can 8 indemnify us and make us whole if there's an accident.

9 That is a key concern for many of us.

10 I also have been hearing a lot of folks 11 saying that these casks have been tested extensively 12 and dropped on all sorts of things. My understanding 13 is all those tests were done in the '70s at Sandia 14 Labs. If there are new tests, I would like to know 15 where they are written about and what reports there 16 are.

17 I would like to have those new tests 18 included in the EIS. We have a very different 19 technological awareness these days. There are all 20 sorts of people who might do us harm. And those tests 21 might have been appropriate in the computer modeling 22 that they did in the '70s at Sandia. Might have been 23 appropriate then, but I don't believe that it's still 24 appropriate now almost 50 years later. And so I would 25 require from both Holtec and Sandia, or whoever wants NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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91 1 to do those testings, that we do a whole other spate 2 of testing given what we are facing in terms of what 3 we saw at 9/11 and so many other things that are going 4 on in the world now that were not going on in 1970.

5 I also want to just say that I come from 6 a community that was promised that a nuclear facility 7 was going to be safe and clean forever. I am also 8 from a community that experience cancer clusters and 9 had a variety of deaths including my mom who died 10 really young, my aunt who died after fighting three 11 kinds of pretty unusual cancers, and all sort of other 12 health effects throughout the neighborhood that could 13 not be said to be genetic because it's of the same 14 family, but neighbors all around us and all through 15 the community.

16 And so the promises of Holtec and the 17 promises of so many other people that it's going to be 18 safe and clean forever, I just can't believe it and 19 I'm not buying their bridge. So I hope that you will 20 please really look very carefully. Accidents will 21 happen even when they're not thought that they're 22 going to happen and we just cannot believe those 23 promises. We will experience those releases. We will 24 cause other cancer cluster and health problems in our 25 communities, and that really needs to be taken into NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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92 1 consideration.

2 Thanks so much for coming to hear us. I 3 hope that you will hold hearings in Albuquerque so I 4 don't have to come five hours away from my little farm 5 to speak to you. So thanks a lot.

6 MR. CAMERON: Okay.

7 (Applause.)

8 MR. CAMERON: Thank you, Gail.

9 And before we go to Danny Cross, let me 10 brink Jack up.

11 And, Jack, you can introduce yourself.

12 And then we'll go to Danny Cross, Denise 13 Madrid Boyes, Phil Green, and Lon Burnam.

14 MR. VOLPATO: My name is Jack Volpato.

15 Thanks for coming to our neck of the woods. I'm a 16 lifelong resident of Eddy County, born and raised in 17 Carlsbad. I am also one of the founding members of 18 the ELEA group. We saw an economic opportunity to 19 partner with Lea County and the City of Hobbs to bring 20 this to our area. We see it as a very valuable asset 21 to the community. We've looked at Holtec's system and 22 vetting it from all the other systems, and by far it's 23 one of the best. You have licensed them in other 24 places and we feel they're the safe and most reliable 25 system on the market.

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93 1 We see the economic benefit to the income 2 to come back to our schools and to our roads which we 3 desperately need in this area due to our extreme 4 growth due to the oil and gas industry boom that we're 5 experiencing.

6 We have been slowly and deliberately 7 moving forward with this project and we feel that you 8 coming to our community and listening to us is very 9 important. Good or bad and people that are for and 10 against it, I'm sure they appreciate the opportunity 11 to talk to you. I believe this project will benefit 12 our community. I have done the research and I feel 13 completely safe. I'm going to live here for the rest 14 of my life and I don't mind having it my back yard.

15 Just one point of clarity. I've heard 16 several people say it's over the Ogallala Aquifer. It 17 is not over the Ogallala Aquifer. That is a 18 misconception. There is -- the only aquifer near 19 there is the Rustler Formation, not the Ogallala.

20 In closing I want to say thank you for 21 coming. And the nuclear industry is one of the safest 22 industries. if you compare it to the oil and gas 23 industry or mortalities, injuries and deaths, the 24 bottom line is that more people get killed in one year 25 in the oil and gas industry than have in the history NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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94 1 of the nuclear industry. Relatively risk and safety 2 is very important and I think that this project has a 3 very high safety margin and a very low risk margin as 4 well. Thank you very much.

5 MR. CAMERON: Thank you.

6 (Applause.)

7 MR. CAMERON: And this is Danny.

8 MR. CROSS: He cut in front of me. That's 9 not fair.

10 My name is Danny Cross and I'm a local 11 businessman, long-time resident, my family Carlsbad, 12 and I just want to say that we've been around URENCO 13 and WIPP for many, many years. They have been great 14 partners for our community. They've enriched our 15 schools. They've enriched our economy. Like they 16 say, we have more Ph.D. scientists in this area than 17 almost anywhere in the state except for maybe Los 18 Alamos.

19 I think this is a great project. I've 20 looked at the science. I've listened to all the 21 people talk and I just want to say that we welcome 22 nuclear projects in this part of the country. We 23 believe that you guys do a great job as well as Holtec 24 in keeping us safe and we really need that kind of 25 infrastructure and tax base and stuff that this stuff NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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95 1 brings to our local economy and our businesses. And 2 thank you and we -- I support this project.

3 MR. CAMERON: Okay. Thank you. Thank 4 you, Danny.

5 (Applause.)

6 MR. CAMERON: Is Denise Madrid Boyes --

7 okay. Denise is coming up. Then we'll go to Phil 8 Green, Lon Burnam, Ford Stone and Wally Taylor.

9 MS. MADRID BOYES: Good evening. Thank 10 you for coming to our community. I greatly appreciate 11 your time and attention this evening.

12 I've lived in Carlsbad for 35 years. I 13 moved here to start my career as an attorney. I'm a 14 private attorney and I've represented many individuals 15 over the last 35 years in many different areas of the 16 law. I addition, I own a charter bus company that 17 provides charter bus transportation to many local 18 businesses including the employees that work at the 19 WIPP site, which is located here in our area.

20 My husband just recently retired; he's 21 with me here in the audience today, from the WIPP site 22 after serving with that facility for 30 years. We are 23 -- I have neighbors, I have friends, I have employees 24 all who support the WIPP site, and they're all used to 25 the regulation and the oversight that occurs as a part NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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96 1 of the same regulations that you all are looking at 2 with this particular facility that Holtec is 3 proposing.

4 I believe that there is a safe and 5 appropriate way that this facility can go into our 6 area. I believe that they will be very good community 7 partners with both Lea County and Eddy County if they 8 perform similar to what the WIPP site has done. And 9 I am in favor of this project and I ask that you 10 strongly consider allowing this application to be 11 approved. Thank you.

12 (Applause.)

13 MR. CAMERON: Okay. Thank you. Thank 14 you, Denise.

15 And Phil, Phil Green. Oh, okay. This is 16 Phil Green and his dog Porter is coming up to help 17 him. And Lon Burnam is also helping.

18 MR. GREEN: Okay. Hello. My name is Phil 19 Green. I live in Fort Worth, Texas. I'm retired from 20 the government. I worked at the Centers for Disease 21 Control in Atlanta for 19 years. The first nine years 22 of that work I was in contracting. The last 10 years 23 of my work I worked in the Radiation Studies Branch, 24 which is within the National Centers for Environmental 25 Health. My job at the Radiation Studies Branch was to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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97 1 perform as a designated federal official managing the 2 Public Health Effects Subcommittee at Savannah River 3 site for six years and to be the project manager at 4 Los Alamos for a Document Retrieval and Assessment 5 Program for 10 years. So my perspective entirely 6 comes from public health. I'm going to have to say up 7 front I do not agree that this is a good idea from a 8 public health perspective.

9 Now I've heard a lot about how safe this 10 community is, how willing you are to take on this 11 enormous project, but I wonder in this slice of heaven 12 whether you really know what you have here. Do you 13 know what rates of diseases, cancer, birth defects and 14 all of these environmental hazards and regular disease 15 hazards may bring to you?

16 So I'm offering you an assignment. That 17 assignment is to visit the Centers for Disease web 18 site and to go to two different locations. They're 19 both databases in which you can look for various 20 diseases and environmental hazards and their effects.

21 You can use these query tools and print out maps, 22 charts and graphs about disease rates by county and by 23 ZIP code. So you can go in to this area and you can 24 find out what your community is really experiencing at 25 the current time.

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98 1 And that may be important because you may 2 find that everything is great, you are safe, or you 3 may find that you're not safe, which means you're 4 either going to bring incredible amounts of hazardous 5 waste into your safe community, or, if you find out 6 that your community is not safe, you may not want to 7 bring in more of it and make it even more unsafe.

8 Now I hate that word "safe" and "unsafe,"

9 and I'm amazed that the government is still using it, 10 because I never used it in my work because there is no 11 -- in public health "safe" is not an accurate word to 12 use for public health risk.

13 I am I guess an outsider, although I own 14 property in San Miguel County. I pay county taxes 15 there. I grew up in New Mexico, met my wife at the 16 University of New Mexico, and I come here two or three 17 times a year. So I guess if I'm an outside, I like 18 being an outsider.

19 I'm very impressed with this area of New 20 Mexico. I have old college friends that live down 21 here, and they love it. And I'm impressed that your 22 infrastructure, your roads -- your city halls are 23 wonderful. In -- what we just -- what -- oh, I can't 24 remember the name of the town. Well -- yes, well, 25 Roswell, of course. But -- and you have universities NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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99 1 here. It appears to me on the outside from looking at 2 it, in what we call in public health is a windshield 3 tour, that it's a great place.

4 But I encourage you to look at these 5 sites. And I also encourage the Nuclear Regulatory 6 Commission to include a public health assessment as 7 part of the EIS. Public health assessment is separate 8 from an EIS. The CDC and its sister agency, the 9 Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, 10 regularly have done these over the years at all the 11 DOE sites that our radiation studies worked at and at 12 the two sites that I worked at.

13 I'm reminded that -- this whole process 14 reminds me of a book written in the '60s by John 15 Nichols called The Milagro Beanfield War, and it 16 parallels this because there's a lot at risk, a lot at 17 stake. And in that there are classic battles between 18 state, stakeholders, agitators, politicians, health.

19 It's in a microcosm and in a very humorous book, but 20 it's very serious. In The Milagro Beanfield War a man 21 plants beans in a place where he's not supposed to, in 22 a place where he's not to get water.

23 Well, this place you're attempting to 24 bring thousands of what I call radioactive beans and 25 eventually, as beans do, beans blow. Thank you.

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100 1 (Applause.)

2 MR. CAMERON: Okay. Thank you. So and 3 thank you, Lon. And Lon's going to be up to talk to 4 us as soon as he gets Phil settled.

5 Okay. There he is.

6 MR. BURNAM: As you might guess by my 7 friendship with Phil, I'm one of those Texans. And so 8 the first thing I'm going to say to NRC is when are 9 you coming to Fort Worth? I'm a stakeholder. And the 10 165,000 people that I represented for 18 years --

11 165,000 people from Central City, Fort Worth, that's 12 a larger population than the three Southeastern New 13 Mexico counties combined. The 165,000 people that I 14 represented for 8 years -- 18 years in the Texas 15 legislature knew that I spent a disproportionate 16 amount of my time fighting waste control specialists 17 because they consistently lied, including about the 18 aquifers, because the WCS facility is over the Edwards 19 Aquifer. They moved the maps. Ogallala. I'm sorry.

20 Over the Ogallala. The point, the relevant point is 21 this industry has consistently lied to people over the 22 decades.

23 I'm here at state expense in that my 24 retirement check is from the State of Texas, but every 25 Texan that's here tonight that has spoken is here NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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101 1 because we are stakeholders and we're here at our own 2 expense.

3 So first, you guys are invited to come to 4 Albuquerque and Midland, Odessa, and Fort Worth. Fort 5 Worth is known as Tarantula City because we have eight 6 railroad lines coming through Fort Worth. I'm very 7 familiar with Union Pacific and the management 8 problems there. I'm very familiar with Tower 55 on 9 the Southeast edge of downtown Fort Worth where over 10 half of what we comb into the Port of Los Angeles goes 11 through and sits for hours at a time waiting to make 12 it through Tower 55. I'm familiar with a lot of 13 things that make me very concerned about both the WCS 14 facility proposal and this one.

15 One, Holtec is looking at trying to become 16 a vertical monopoly. I'm one of those old-school 17 people that thinks almost all monopolies are a bad 18 idea. They're usually under and inadequately 19 regulated and are a threat to our health and safety 20 and welfare.

21 Chip, I blew it during the process 22 questions. I wanted to remind you that there is a 23 considerable question whether or not there is 24 congressional authority to be holding these public 25 meetings at this time, because there's certainly not NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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102 1 NRC authority to authorize the application. But if 2 you're going to hold three in Southeastern New Mexico 3 with a population less than the district I 4 represented, you might as well come to Fort Worth.

5 You should recognize that there's a constant threat of 6 artificial segmentation. The transportation lines are 7 important.

8 This week in the three public meetings 9 there have been two derailing of rail cars in Texas on 10 the local racks downtown Fort Worth, seven or eight 11 blocks from our courthouse on North Main just today.

12 This is all about risk management. I'm one of those 13 people that opposed the local nuclear power plant in 14 the first plant because I knew we didn't have the 15 answer to dealing with waste. I know the problems 16 with this. I've been studying it since 1970.

17 I'm here because I think what I'm really 18 hearing from these communities is concrete contracts 19 are more important to some of you than public health.

20 Let's get our value system in order.

21 (Applause.)

22 MR. BURNAM: Oh, and finally, we've talked 23 a lot about cumulative impacts. I'd like to make 24 certain that this map of New Mexico is entered into 25 the record. So, Chip, I'm going to hand it to you.

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103 1 I was born in Artesia. My grandmother died at age 62.

2 Our family will always suspect it was because she 3 worked at the Artesia General Hospital in the X-ray 4 lab before they knew enough to know that she should 5 have been shielded. Carlsbad, we're 70 years into 6 this. You need to know some things.

7 MR. CAMERON: Okay. Thank you. Thank 8 you, Lon.

9 (Applause.)

10 MR. CAMERON: Ford? Ford Stone? Ford 11 Stone, Wally Taylor. Come on up, whoever you are.

12 This is Wally Taylor. Are you Ford Stone?

13 MR. STONE: Yes, I'm Ford Stone.

14 MR. CAMERON: You're Ford Stone. Okay.

15 Good.

16 MR. STONE: I'm Ford Stone. I've lived 17 here for 35 years. I rise in opposition. I have no 18 experience with this whatsoever. I'm sorry.

19 I want to preface this by simply saying 20 the problem is not the casks, the problem is the 21 pools. All right? That will become clear in a 22 minute.

23 The proponents of the Holtec Eddy Lea 24 Alliance proposal advance four main arguments 25 justifying the transfer of the nation's depleted fuel NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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104 1 rods to Eddy Lea County. I have found these arguments 2 unconvincing for the following reasons:

3 First the moral argument. The depleted 4 fuel rods are stored in two modes depending on how 5 hot, both thermally and radioactively, they are. The 6 fuel rods that are no longer thermally hot enough to 7 boil water in the reactor are removed and replaced 8 with new ones. The removed ones are still plenty 9 thermally hot such that they need to be kept 10 constantly water-cooled in cooling pools lest they be 11 exposed to air, in which case they could get so hot as 12 to cause their zirconium alloy tubes to catch fire.

13 If such were to happen, the result could 14 be a catastrophe on the order of Chernobyl spewing 15 radiation far and wide and requiring permanent 16 evacuation of everyone for miles around. This is the 17 real liability of spent fuel reactor rods, a matter of 18 real concern and a genuine first class moral problem 19 for the risk that they represent to the population at 20 each and every one of the 100 or so power plants where 21 they are located. It's a big problem, but this 22 serious problem is not addressed at all by the Holtec 23 and Eddy-Lea Alliance proposal.

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105 1 cooling pools for a minimum of five years. You could 2 bring all of the cooler fuel rods currently in dry 3 cask storage at their present locations here tomorrow 4 and not change this situation one bit. You simply 5 cannot speed up the heat generating nuclear decay 6 process. This is -- can you hear me?

7 PARTICIPANT: No, there's something wrong 8 with that mic. We can't hear you very well and I 9 don't know what it is.

10 MR. STONE: Can I just talk?

11 (Simultaneous speaking.)

12 MR. CAMERON: I can hear you fine. I can 13 hear you perfectly well.

14 MR. STONE: All right.

15 MR. CAMERON: So go ahead.

16 MR. STONE: All right. Anyway, you can't 17 speed up the heat generating nuclear decay process.

18 It must run its course. What you will do is encourage 19 the nuclear industry to produce still more of this 20 waste once they see they can put their spent rods out 21 of sight and out of mind.

22 Now, the problem is the casks. I've heard 23 -- all right. Second, they say the above-ground 24 aspect of the present casks designs places them at 25 risk at aircraft crash. Well, as to their putative NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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106 1 vulnerability to air crash you will note that in 1945 2 a B-25 two-engine bomber crashed into the Empire State 3 Building in New York City with virtually no damage to 4 the building's structural integrity. To a structure 5 of concrete or steel an airplane is just a thin-6 skinned aluminum balloon full of people and fuel.

7 The Twin Towers which might come to mind 8 in this context collapsed not due to their steel 9 framework being damaged by the aircraft's impact, 10 which it was not, but by their steel structures being 11 weakened by the prolonged exposure to the subsequent 12 fuel-fed fire. Any structural engineer or architect 13 will tell you that steel loses all its strength in a 14 fire. The Twin Towers' steel insulation was never 15 conceived to be exposed to the amount of prolonged 16 heat to which the fuel-feed fire brought by the planes 17 exposed them.

18 Now, why did I go and say all that? In 19 total contrast the dry storage fuel rod casks 20 currently where these rods are -- the cooler rods are 21 stored are double-layer welded steel containers with 22 thick steel reinforced concrete cladding. They would 23 be fairly impregnable to this kind of impact.

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107 1 attack --

2 MR. CAMERON: Can I get you to just sum 3 up, please, Ford?

4 MR. STONE: Yes.

5 MR. CAMERON: Thank you.

6 MR. STONE: The cooler rods would not 7 catch fire if they were exposed to an attack, however, 8 there would be a problem, but it would not be a 9 Chernobyl-type problem. It would be nasty, but the 10 thing about it is these casks are specifically 11 designed to be capable of withstanding just such an 12 attack. The NRC describes the dry casks used in the 13 U.S. as "designed to resist floods, tornados, 14 projectiles, temperature extremes and other unusual 15 scenarios." I quote. So these present storage 16 containers weigh hundreds of tons. They ain't going 17 nowhere.

18 How much more do I -- no more time?

19 MR. CAMERON: You're over time.

20 MR. STONE: Oh, okay. I'm so sorry.

21 MR. CAMERON: So I just wanted to give you 22 as much time as --

23 (Simultaneous speaking.)

24 MR. STONE: All right. I got it all -- if 25 you want to go to fordstone.wordpress.com, you can see NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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108 1 the rest of the argument.

2 MR. CAMERON: You can -- and if you want 3 to give that to the NRC staff, you can.

4 MR. STONE: I've made so many marks on it 5 that it's illegible.

6 MR. CAMERON: Okay. All right.

7 PARTICIPANT: Mail it in.

8 MR. CAMERON: Thank you, Ford.

9 MR. STONE: All right.

10 (Applause.)

11 MR. CAMERON: Thank you very much. Thank 12 you.

13 And now we're going to hear from Wally 14 Taylor and then Chad Ingram and Tom Martin.

15 Go ahead.

16 MR. TAYLOR: Thank you for allowing me to 17 comment. I have three comments on the scope of the 18 EIS. Others have touched on these, but I want to 19 expand a little bit.

20 The first is about earthquakes. The 21 environment report submitted by Holtec pretty much 22 dismisses the idea of earthquakes impacting this 23 project, but the ER is based on historic data, 24 historic incidents. There is much more recent data 25 which I will give to you in written comments that the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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109 1 drilling and fracking for oil and gas in this area has 2 increased dramatically in the last few years. And a 3 recent study by some geophysicists at Stanford, which 4 was published in February of this year, documents 5 recent faults in the area of the Holtec site and 6 around the Holtec site that weren't there 7 historically. And it's a proven fact; someone 8 mentioned Oklahoma, where fracking for oil and gas 9 does induce earthquakes. And that's been shown in 10 Texas as well. So you need to do a really thorough 11 review for the impacts from earthquakes.

12 Secondly, the no-action alternative, which 13 means basically leaving the waste at the reactor site.

14 The ER submitted by Holtec admits that the no-action 15 alternative is a reasonable alternative, but it tosses 16 it aside saying, well, it's safer to put it in a 17 consolidated -- in a storage facility. But the NRC's 18 own continuous storage rule determined that it's 19 perfectly safe to leave the waste on site basically 20 forever. You remember you had to do -- because the 21 court said so you had to do an evaluation for 22 indefinite storage on site, and you found that it was 23 safe. The Blue Ribbon Commission, which Holtec cites 24 as the basis for supporting a CIS site, said also that 25 on-site storage was just as safe as a CIS site. So NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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110 1 with all of that you need to really take a strong 2 thorough look at the no-action alternative.

3 Thirdly, you must evaluate for indefinite 4 storage at the CIS site. That's exactly what the 5 circuit court in D.C. said back in 2012 in New York v.

6 NRDC that NEPA requires an evaluation for all possible 7 scenarios including indefinite storage. And if there 8 is never a permanent repository sited, this CIS site 9 will become a de factor permanent repository. You 10 need to evaluate that in the EIS.

11 (Applause.)

12 MR. CAMERON: Thanks, Wally.

13 And is Chad Ingram --

14 MR. INGRAM: Yes, right here.

15 MR. CAMERON: Okay. Good. Thank you.

16 MR. INGRAM: Good evening. We sure do 17 appreciate you all being here in Carlsbad, and what a 18 community we have, huh? You know, I've been standing 19 over here and I've heard a lot of my fellow 20 Carlsbadians come up here and I've had to change my 21 speech three times because they keep stealing my 22 lines.

23 Bottom line is that we know nuclear here.

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111 1 backing them up with the science. Holtec has shown in 2 their testing that this can stand up to an airplane 3 strike. The science is there. The science is sound.

4 Carlsbad is a perfect location to have such a 5 facility. We have the WIPP site here already. We are 6 willing to take this on.

7 We've heard a lot tonight as well it could 8 be and it sits above ground and we've got these 9 problems. The science has already been done. And 10 we're here tonight to ask you to approve Holtec.

11 Let's get it here. Let's get this stuff stored. Even 12 if it's on a temporary basis, it's the best 13 alternative for us at this point. Appreciate you all.

14 Thank you.

15 MR. CAMERON: Okay. Thank you, Chad.

16 (Applause.)

17 MR. CAMERON: I'm going to go to Tom. Tom 18 Martin with us?

19 Okay. Richard Doss, John Buchser, Doug 20 Lynn, Bob Forrest. Richard? Richard Doss? And John.

21 John -- he was here. Okay. Oh, here he is.

22 MR. BUCHSER: Thank you. Thank you to 23 everybody for hanging in there. I am -- there is a 24 lot of audience that has disappeared from the front.

25 My name is John Buchser. I am here representing the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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112 1 10,000 members of the Rio Grande Chapter of the Sierra 2 Club. I worked about ten years at Los Alamos, five 3 years at Sandia, half a dozen years in public health.

4 I am a computer geek. I am also a crazy activist and 5 I am from Santa Fe.

6 I agree with statements that city and 7 county officials stated early on that some storage 8 sites at reactors of cast fuel rods need to be 9 evaluated for risk and are potentially not safe -- as 10 safe as they could be. The goal of waste management 11 should be to minimize risk in management of used fuel 12 rods. If a storage location at a given reactor is 13 determined to be at risk, moving as short a distance 14 as possible is best unless we know where the long-term 15 location is. Current law does not allow a CIS site.

16 I am impressed that the whole tech system, as proposed 17 here, appears to be safe. However, this is only the 18 case for the permitted 20-year period for this 19 storage.

20 The storage site problems are one, helium 21 leakage should be continuously monitored. As far as 22 I can tell, it's not monitored at all, so you don't 23 know if anything is linking. Murphy rules. No long-24 term storage management exists to handle leaking 25 casks. Radiation and heat will degrade casks. It NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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113 1 actually starts peaking out at about year ten through 2 about year 25 -- it gets pretty darn hot. It actually 3 makes a case for not putting it underground until the 4 heat diminishes, there is so much heat coming off of 5 it. I really like to use my car. I heat my house 6 with gas. Guess where it comes from -- this area 7 around here. Until we get to the point in technology 8 where I can use something else, I don't want to 9 destroy the oil and gas boom here. I need it. I like 10 it. I want to transition, but I -- we're not there.

11 I like dairy and meat. Same problem. I 12 don't want to make it go away. Tourism is safe, 13 mostly. Lots of jobs. Holtec is only providing 50 or 14 100. That is not many. Transport, to me, is the 15 biggest problem. An anti-tank missile will cause a 16 failure. It's not clear to me how awful that failure 17 will be, but I happened to be at Los Alamos watching 18 the satellite photos of Chernobyl the day after it 19 happened, and I have watched videos of people going in 20 there for half-an-hour just to do some videos of 21 Chernobyl -- nobody lives there, except some of the 22 animals are managing to. The Yucca Mountain analysis 23 was extensive. It showed that in the transport 24 process to Yucca Mountain, which is actually less 25 waste than this is proposing over the 20-year renewals NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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114 1 that they will be looking at, that there will be a 2 failure in transport of this waste. Same problem with 3 releasing that waste.

4 There is -- I have three things in 5 conclusion. One is, stop the production of this 6 dangerous waste. Two is, don't reprocess and 7 perpetuate the problem. The only way this project can 8 actually be profitable to the community in the long 9 run is to reprocess it, and you are just perpetuating 10 the problem, creating bomb-grade material. I don't, 11 you know -- I don't nuclear war any more than anybody 12 else does, except for the folks building things for 13 war. We have a wonderful thermonuclear process a few 14 million miles away. The region is already putting it 15 to great use with wind and solar collectors. It 16 generates a whole heck of a lot more jobs and is a 17 whole heck of a lot safer. Thank you very much for 18 your time, and I appreciate your being here for us.

19 (Applause.)

20 MR. CAMERON: Thank you. Thank you, John.

21 Is Doug Lynn? Here is Doug. And then we will go to 22 Bob Forrest, Larry Mitchell and then Gene Harbaugh.

23 And this is Doug.

24 MR. LYNN: Thank you. I appreciate the 25 opportunity to speak to everyone tonight. It's NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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115 1 getting a little cold in here. Is everybody kind of 2 --

3 (Simultaneous speaking.)

4 MR. LYNN: Yes, I was going to hang some 5 meat back there, but --

6 (Laughter.)

7 MR. LYNN: I too am kind of a life-long 8 resident of this area. My family homesteaded a ranch 9 between Carlsbad and Jal. It's not that far south as 10 the crow flies from the proposed Holtec site. I have 11 a great deal of passion for the desert. I was trained 12 as a range land ecologist. My first 12 years -- most 13 of them are gone now. I was going to have them raise 14 their hand. But for the first 12 years of my 15 professional career, I was a school teacher. I taught 16 biology and environmental ecology. Oh, there's one 17 right there. One of my old students. But I -- we had 18 a whole room full of them. I counted about 15 or 20 19 in here -- my old kids. And my -- my kids, in fact, 20 received state and national accolades for excellence 21 in environmental education and ecology and 22 contribution -- and their contribution to America's 23 resources -- natural resources.

24 We have -- I would like to preface one --

25 one further comment I would like to make is that we --

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116 1 we looked up here a while ago about things like 2 wildlife. And there was a comment made tonight about 3 the dune sage brush lizard. There were questions 4 asked of us yesterday -- I was a tour guide out there 5 -- and we were -- I was asked very politely and very 6 graciously, questions about the lesser prairie 7 chicken. Both of these species are species of concern 8 to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. And they 9 currently have agreements in place to help manage the 10 conservation of both species. And I can state 11 unequivocally, I've been -- I've been sitting on these 12 boards since 2002 -- I have sat on every single 13 working group that has -- that was -- that were the 14 main contributors to the strategic plan to manage both 15 the dune sage brush lizard and the lesser prairie 16 chicken. I can tell you unequivocally, with absolute 17 surety, that that area out there is not conducive, it 18 is non-suitable habitat. Neither of those species 19 reside there, nor will they ever reside there. It is 20 hardpan muskee (phonetic). Those -- neither species 21 does that.

22 So, now that being said, I will go on --

23 after my -- after my career as a school teacher I went 24 -- I actually got hired by the WIPP site. I was a 25 little uncomfortable. I had a little bit of fear NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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117 1 about nuclear. And I got hired at the WIPP site and 2 went out as one of their primary land use 3 coordinators. I was their wildlife guy. I was their 4 range specialist. I was their reclamation specialist.

5 I wore a lot of hats. And I also was assigned the 6 principal investigator and the team leader for all of 7 the radiological environmental sampling. And when you 8 do that, they send you to Oak Ridge Associated 9 Universities in Tennessee and they put you through 10 some of the most rigorous and intensive training on 11 radiological environmental sampling that you can go 12 through.

13 And as I -- as I got smarter about 14 radiation, I got less fearful about radiation. As I 15 learned more about how radioactive materials behave --

16 as I learned more about how radionuclides behave -- I 17 became a lot more comfortable in how I went about 18 doing my business as an environmental sampler. And 19 they had us at Oak Ridge -- I told some people 20 yesterday, they had me, in my frame, crawling around 21 through duct work over laboratories with pitot tubes 22 taking air samples. So once I learned about the 23 behavior -- how a radionuclide behaves, I became more 24 comfortable. And I became less fearful. And I -- so 25 I conducted that for 15 years at the WIPP site.

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118 1 That's what I did. All of those different activities 2 I just described.

3 Based on my training and my experience in 4 that arena, I can state that there is a reality -- I 5 tell this to my employees all the time. You know, 6 they want to do the right thing sometimes, or they 7 want to -- they have a lot of passion or emotion 8 wrapped up in things. I have a lot of passion about 9 the Chihuahuan desert. I love the desert. That's why 10 I choose to live here. And that's why I choose to 11 learn about the desert and was trained in the desert.

12 But there is a reality. The reality here is that we 13 have spent nuclear fuel. The reality is is that fuel 14 is not particularly in the best place. And in my 15 opinion, based on my training and experience, the 16 Holtec facility is by far the best option that we have 17 to handle that reality. And so, that being said, I 18 thank you again for your time.

19 (Applause.)

20 MR. CAMERON: Thank you very much. And 21 how about Bob? Bob Forrest?

22 (No audible response.)

23 MR. CAMERON: Larry Mitchell? Gene 24 Harbaugh? Oh, here is Larry. Okay, and then we will 25 go to you, Gene. We have Larry right here. Go ahead.

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119 1 MR. MITCHELL: Good evening, ladies and 2 gentleman. We welcome you to Carlsbad and my name is 3 Larry Mitchell. I am speaking on behalf of myself as 4 a citizen. I've been in Carlsbad for almost -- well, 5 it was over 24 years. I was imported here, so I too 6 am from Texas. Been proud to be here. Again, I am 7 speaking as a businessman and as a citizen. We -- I 8 am pleased that Holtec is showing interest. I am 9 pleased that you have shown up here as well to hear 10 what the concerned citizens have to say -- whether 11 they be from here or from outside. I mean, we -- we 12 welcome everybody. This is -- this is our backyard 13 and I heard one -- can't remember who it was that said 14 not in my backyard. Well, I followed what he was 15 saying. I said, we do welcome Holtec to our backyard.

16 And one of the things that we see -- the promises that 17 we've -- that we've -- or, the promise I see in this 18 program is that, you know, this -- the program we have 19 right now as far as WIPP, it has been a fantastic 20 contribution to this community, not just by what it 21 does for employees and what the employees do for 22 Carlsbad and for the surrounding areas, but what -- I 23 believe it does a service. And it does come at a 24 cost, but that cost, considering what could be done 25 with it, is minimal. This is, as many others have NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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120 1 said, this is a well-educated community. I have never 2 felt like I was being misled or, you know, 3 misinformed. I believe the kids in this community 4 know more, being that they are raising up in this --

5 being raised up in this, that they know more about it 6 than many others. And so this is, I believe, a well-7 educated community.

8 One of the things we've seen over the 9 years when I -- when I moved out here is potash was 10 beginning to decline. Tourism has been pretty much 11 waning off a little bit. It's -- now you see what oil 12 and gas does. It is extremely volatile. If it's up, 13 it's up. If it's down, then the whole region can be 14 down. But one of the things I have noticed here ever 15 since WIPP came on board, it's really kind of leveled 16 out the economy. It's been that constant -- and I 17 know that you -- your profession, your job, you want 18 to make everything as safe as possible. And I do 19 believe that Holtec has a solution, be it temporary or 20 whatever it is -- but we certainly would like to 21 welcome Holtec to our community. Thank you.

22 (Applause.)

23 MR. CAMERON: Thank you. This is Gene, 24 right?

25 MR. HARBAUGH: I admire you folks so much.

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121 1 You have sat there so patiently. Wouldn't you like to 2 stand up? I mean, goodness, goodness.

3 (Laughter.)

4 MR. HARBAUGH: Anyway, I appreciate the 5 opportunity speak to you tonight. My name is Gene 6 Harbaugh. I am a retired Presbyterian pastor, 7 approaching 82 years old. And I have lived in 8 Carlsbad 32 years. I live within 300 yards of a 9 switching rail yard, which makes me nervous when I 10 think about the condition of the railroad 11 infrastructure across this country and how much time 12 some of these canisters will spend on a siding. The 13 proposal that we have before us is for a temporary, 14 interim storage facility. And even though, obviously, 15 a lot of attention has been given to the safety of 16 these canisters, the fact that this is a temporary 17 storage facility is its fatal flaw. Until a permanent 18 repository is authorized by Congress, it is 19 counterintuitive to move radioactive material around 20 the country.

21 (Applause.)

22 MR. HARBAUGH: We have had experience in 23 Carlsbad with private companies. As you know, about 24 our brine well situation. And if there is to be a 25 national repository for nuclear waste, the federal NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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122 1 government, not a private company, should be 2 responsible for the conducting of the entire project 3 and its design. We are talking not just 100 years, we 4 are talking thousands of years when we are talking 5 about finding a repository for this kind of waste.

6 Another point that I would make is that this proposal 7 is not in any way connected to WIPP. WIPP is a 8 project that those of us in this community have come 9 to accept and, in fact, for me personally, if we were 10 putting these canisters 2,000 feet below the surface, 11 that would be a different story. That is not the 12 case, obviously. It is disingenuous to suggest that 13 the proposed storage will be temporary when there is 14 as yet no permanent site for the waste.

15 So Holtec is obviously motivated by profit 16 in this plan. Nothing wrong with that. However, I 17 wonder how much attention and how much information we 18 have about the impact on farming and ranching, on 19 tourism, on retirement, on the oil and gas industry, 20 on the dairy industry, on the mining industry. I 21 think all of that needs to be looked at. And my hunch 22 is that, as I talk to people, the impact is going to 23 be negative.

24 And finally, I would just say that we have 25 a situation in this community that is not unique. But NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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123 1 due to the fact that we are in a community that has 2 only one newspaper -- one community newspaper -- which 3 has dramatically declined in circulation and is now 4 published in El Paso, Texas, and has no effective 5 network for public communication, this project is 6 virtually unknown in Carlsbad. I will wager that you 7 cannot talk to 20 people that you don't know on the 8 streets of Carlsbad and find one of them that has even 9 heard of this project. This has been under the radar 10 for a long time. I appreciate the opportunity to 11 speak to you, and I am amazed at your stamina.

12 (Applause.)

13 MR. CAMERON: Well, you're not doing too 14 badly yourself at 82, you know. Are the Squires here?

15 Yes, Mrs. Squires goes first. If you still want to 16 talk. And then we are going to go to the Hoffmans --

17 after Mr. Squires. This is Linda Squires.

18 MS. SQUIRES: Good evening, I -- I spoke 19 at the Roswell meeting. And I just wanted to make a 20 few comments about what occurred at the Roswell 21 meeting. And I am addressing you tonight as a -- a 22 dairy owner, a veterinarian and most of all as a mom.

23 But also as a Baby Boomer. We old farts at the 24 meeting in Roswell were schooled by the nuclear 25 engineering students in the many benefits of having NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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124 1 Mr. Atom in our lives. Reminded, pretty much, of the 2 benefits that x-rays gave us for diagnosis of our 3 cancers and determining which teeth to have pulled --

4 and to be told we had -- if we had a banana that day, 5 we had just consumed radioactive material.

6 Basically, what they were ridiculing was 7 the fears of the old people. And as baby boomers, I 8 think we have every right to be -- have some fear of 9 radioactive materials. When I was a kid, we had a 10 shoe store in the little town that I grew up in, and 11 we had a fluoroscope in that shoe store. And I 12 remember standing in front of that thing and wiggling 13 my toes in my new shoes. But the fluoroscope was not 14 shielded. It provided no protection whatsoever. And 15 I often wondered if I had received radiation that 16 caused some physical problems that I had later on in 17 life from that machine. But I never -- I would never 18 know.

19 Then every person that's -- that was born 20 after World War II, every person alive in the United 21 States during those years in the '50s and '60s was 22 exposed to huge amounts of unprecedented radiation 23 falling from the skies. They did studies in -- in St.

24 Louis on baby teeth that were submitted by moms. And 25 then the followed these teeth throughout the years of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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125 1 the people's lives. And this was called the baby 2 tooth study. And they tested for strontium 90 levels 3 in those baby teeth. And they found that with 4 increasing strontium 90 there was increased cancer 5 rates and decreased survivability of those baby 6 boomers.

7 Many of our friends and neighbors are 8 already gone. We have a very close friend right now 9 who is fighting cancer. Nobody knows what causes 10 these things, but the fact remains that fear is a 11 protective mechanism. It allows us to raise children 12 successfully without them dying, and it allows us to 13 do all the things in our lives that we need to do 14 safely, because we have respect for what can happen in 15 the worst-case scenarios. Now, all these years later, 16 baby boomers face devastating debilitating 17 neurological diseases for which nobody knows the cause 18 and there is no prevention and no cure. And I am 19 referring to Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and a horrible 20 disease called Creutzfled-Jakobs disease, which is the 21 human form of mad cow disease. All of these diseases 22 are now linked to prions. And this is the same tiny 23 particle known to be present in cows with BSE, or mad 24 cow disease, and it -- they are also present in deer 25 and elk with chronic wasting disease and in sheep with NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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126 1 scrapie. But scientists don't know anything about how 2 these particles initiate disease or how they can be so 3 resistant to disinfectants.

4 I have been studying cluster patterns of 5 all the prion-related diseases for quite a few years 6 now -- just an independent study. And I -- as I 7 mentioned at the other meeting, I came up with four 8 factors -- radionuclides, various combinations of 9 heavy metals such as lead or manganese, and fluoride 10 and aluminum.

11 And I am turning in a copy of my notes and 12 summary paper to you tonight so that you can be free 13 to take this information and create studies so that 14 you can find out -- work with the Department of 15 Defense, who is now doing research on prion diseases, 16 for some strange reason. Find out if you can do some 17 studies. I have a suggestion for a study for CWD in 18 Colorado. Find out if -- what is causing these. If 19 there is indeed any link to radioactive materials, we 20 need to find out before we create more contaminated 21 places. And I urge you to -- to follow up on this. If 22 I am wrong, I will be surprised. But if I am right, 23 you will be glad that you checked this out first.

24 Thank you.

25 (Applause.)

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127 1 MR. CAMERON: And Mr. Squires? Then we're 2 going to go to -- to Shareon and Ace Hoffman.

3 MR. SQUIRES: Thank you for the 4 opportunity to speak to you folks again. I spoke the 5 other night in Roswell for a few minutes. My wife 6 Linda and I both -- we are both graduate 7 veterinarians. We graduated from Ohio State a few 8 years ago. We now own a dairy in Hagerman, which 9 coincidentally, I guess one of the railroads that is 10 going to transfer this nuclear waste goes right 11 through the town of Hagerman. We currently have over 12 50 employees. And one of the things I would like to 13 talk about tonight is one of the things that we have 14 learned in veterinary medicine -- one of the more 15 important aspects of it, we feel, is preventive 16 medicine. This is something not a lot of people think 17 about. They think about what pill can I take to fix 18 this problem? And in preventive medicine, it's what 19 we use when we are working with herds, with animals, 20 just to try to evaluate the situation. We evaluate 21 the risks of the disease. We evaluate the costs of 22 the disease. And then we evaluate the cost of the 23 prevention and what methods we can use to prevent a 24 disease. And after that, we try to make a plan to 25 help prevent disease, whether it is something to do NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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128 1 with nutrition, cow comfort, calf comfort, 2 vaccinations, immunology -- all of those things. And 3 we use that to help run our dairy as well as -- when 4 I was consulting for other dairies, we -- we would use 5 that same information in those cases.

6 A lot of our dairy feeds are transported, 7 as I said the other night, on the same railways that 8 the proposed nuclear fuel rods would use. The rest of 9 the feed is raised locally, and as I said the other 10 night, the risks of contamination of any of our feeds 11 or any of the milk supply, or even the hint of 12 contamination would devastate our industry. I am not 13 a -- I am not an anti-nuclear activist. We believe in 14 a lot of the uses of radiation and things like that.

15 But there's a place and a time for it.

16 I feel that it's impossible for us to 17 prevent some kind of accident of any kind from 18 happening with a railroad or a truck. Murphy, that's 19 running the loader, when they're -- when they're 20 moving these canisters. Any accident leak or any 21 other problem. And it is nearly impossible to know 22 when it is occurring because you can't see it, smell 23 it or tell it by any of your other senses. So we have 24 to rely on responsible people who are around there to 25 let us know if something happened. And we are NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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129 1 dependent upon their honesty and integrity to report 2 these problems.

3 I am not really comfortable with that 4 situation. Even though I have been told that it is, 5 I do not believe that it is my moral and patriotic 6 duty to take the high-level nuclear waste from around 7 the country. I think it should be stored where it 8 already had a contaminated home. And that's all I've 9 got to say tonight. Thank you.

10 (Applause.)

11 MR. CAMERON: And here is Ace Hoffman.

12 Ace?

13 MR. HOFFMAN: Good evening. I am a 14 stakeholder. I am from Carlsbad. Not Carlsbad, New 15 Mexico; Carlsbad, California, which is about 15 miles 16 as the crow flies, or the plutonium flies, from San 17 Onofre. So it was very important to me that we do 18 something about this waste. However, Rocky Flats 19 still has a dead zone where people can't live.

20 They've made it into a nature preserve, it's -- it 21 doesn't preserve anything. Chernobyl has a dead zone.

22 Fukushima has a dead zone. Hanford has a dead zone 23 and no money to build it.

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130 1 than an egg shell, proportionately. And if you 2 imagine an egg shell filled with lead -- well, uranium 3 is 1.7 times heavier than lead. So this -- these are 4 not safe canisters. The drop tests, all those other 5 tests, they're not nearly as strict as the tests that 6 they give them in Europe. The tests are really 7 designed so that the dry casts that they can -- that 8 they want to build will pass the tests. They're not 9 real -- they don't have anything to do with the real 10 world and what can really happen.

11 The -- the -- what we're talking about is 12 probability versus possibility. So by considering 13 only the first 500 casks, that's one-twentieth of the 14 probability of an accident. How bad that accident --

15 well, it's 20-times more likely that it's -- that it's 16 going to happen if you're taking the whole 10,000. If 17 you take all of those. And another thing is, if you 18 built this thing, the nuclear industry is going to 19 say, well, we have a solution to the nuclear waste 20 problem. But what kind of a solution is it? It's a 21 -- it is supposed to last 40 years? That's one number 22 that I hear. A hundred-and-twenty years is another 23 number. Three hundred years is a number we have been 24 tossed at as well. But the truth is, it may be there 25 forever because those casks corrode. And trying to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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131 1 move them after 40 years may be an extremely risk 2 thing if you can do it at all.

3 Now, we spent the day at the Carlsbad 4 Caverns. And you've got a lot of wind here. Oh, it 5 was windy. And you've got a lot of water seeping 6 through your ground constantly. So if there is a 7 problem it is going to affect everything. It is going 8 to affect your tourism. It is going to affect your 9 livestock. It is going to affect your environment in 10 so many different ways. And let's talk about 11 terrorism. They are not prepared to -- they are not 12 going to protect against an airplane strike -- even an 13 accidental airplane strike. The turbine -- the center 14 of the turbine of an airplane is a very solid rod.

15 And that will go through just about anything. And the 16 fuel test -- the fire that would occur if an airplane 17 actually crashed into this enormous place -- would 18 burst these casks. So they're not protected against 19 any kind of terrorism -- not to mention, I mean, we 20 had a -- a drug guy that they dug a 500-foot tunnel in 21 Mexico to get him out. Just this one person. If 22 somebody wants to get into this thing, fence isn't 23 going to -- isn't going to stop anybody. They can go 24 under it. They do that all the time in California.

25 (Laughter.)

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132 1 MR. HOFFMAN: Also, the bill that -- that 2 is being proposed, it -- they need -- they need a new 3 bill because legally they can't build this thing yet.

4 And part of the bills -- it's being rewritten just in 5 the last day or so -- such that nobody can sue if the 6 DOE doesn't put enough money in to solve the problems 7 that might come up. So, I mean, if -- from top to 8 bottom, it's a farce. Twenty years ago we were told 9 at San Onofre that the casks they were going to use 10 were going to be two inches thick and a quarter of an 11 inch lead. And they are actually five-eighths of an 12 inch thick. And that's thicker than they used to be.

13 The ones that we were going to get when they were 14 telling us they would be two inches thick were only 15 half-inch thick. So don't expect anyone to be telling 16 you the truth about what is possible or what is going 17 to happen. And I strongly advise -- even though I 18 would love to get rid of the waste, and I would love 19 to find a sucker that will take it -- but don't be 20 that sucker. Thank you.

21 (Applause.)

22 MR. CAMERON: This is Sharon -- Sharon 23 Hoffman. And then we're going to go to Robert Defer 24 and Robert Baldridge. Sharon?

25 MS. HOFFMAN: Thank you, Chip. And thank NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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133 1 you to the -- to everybody for staying this long and 2 listening. And thank you to Carlsbad for welcoming us 3 here. As my husband said, we are from Carlsbad, 4 California and we -- we recognize the -- the sentiment 5 that says we can take this problem. But this is 6 everybody's problem. And it cannot be moved to any 7 one place. So I want to ask the NRC if you are going 8 to consider this -- if you are going to do an 9 environmental impact, then do an environmental impact 10 of what is really going to happen. This is going to 11 become a de facto permanent repository. We are still 12 going to have waste at every nuclear power plant in 13 the country that is open. We are very happy that San 14 Onofre is closed. It is a really bad place for the 15 waste. But that doesn't mean that we solve the 16 problem by moving it to a different place. We have to 17 look at the transportation. we are talking about 18 moving the most dangerous stuff on the planet all over 19 the country. And if we moved it all today, we would 20 have more tomorrow.

21 So if we are going to do an environmental 22 impact, let's do an environmental impact of what is 23 really going to happen. So the real question here is, 24 when are we going to shut down all these plants and 25 stop making more waste? That's really the problem.

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134 1 (Applause.)

2 MS. HOFFMAN: The other thing that I think 3 is very important to consider is nobody has ever 4 opened a cask. There has been a lot of discussion at 5 San Onofre about the casks and a lot of questions 6 about that. And we had some folks come in from the 7 nuclear industry group and say, well, we are starting 8 some studies about what might happen if we ever had to 9 open a cask. But nobody has ever opened a real cask.

10 So nobody knows what would happen. This is a 11 beautiful place, as so many of you said -- as we saw.

12 And it might be contaminated forever. This is not 13 something that you want to take on for the rest of the 14 country. Yes, you can help the rest of the country.

15 You can say, stop making this, and then let's figure 16 out together the best thing to do with what is left.

17 Thank you.

18 (Applause.)

19 MR. CAMERON: Okay, and I think this is 20 Mr. Defer. I am not sure if I am pronouncing that 21 correctly, but I just wanted to report on -- they 22 tried to -- to shut the cold air off here, okay? And 23 apparently it's computer controlled and it's still 24 going to be cold. So we apologize for that. And we 25 have a -- we have a number of people left. And I am NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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135 1 going to go to the people who we haven't heard from 2 this week. And -- and I am sure there's one right 3 back there waving her hand at me. And I am -- I am 4 going to go to them and I would ask, when I call the 5 people who have already talked to us, just try to make 6 your main point. Be crisp. So before this poor woman 7 freezes up here. But anyway, I am sorry. Go ahead, 8 Mr. Defer.

9 MR. DEFER: Good evening. Thank you very, 10 very much for coming. I thank you for allowing me to 11 come and share some thoughts with you. Your task that 12 you've got was very daunting and very, very serious.

13 And it affects our whole -- not just our community, it 14 affects our whole United States. And let me say that 15 I am for and in support of moving and bringing it here 16 to Carlsbad. I do live here. I am a resident of 17 Carlsbad. And I plan on being here for quite some 18 time. It is very, very serious, not just for us but 19 for the whole world. And not just the whole world --

20 for the United States, for what you're doing. And 21 you've got a hard task.

22 But I think that this is a beginning, or 23 a start, for a solution to be able to house the 24 nuclear waste. And we've got to make those decisions, 25 even as hard as they are, and as daunting as they are NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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136 1 and whether we like them or not, but we've got to make 2 those decisions to look to the future to get to the 3 results that we need. Thank you again so much for 4 coming. I am in support. Thank you so much for what 5 you're doing, and for your decisions that you have to 6 make.

7 MR. CAMERON: Thank you very much. Is Mr.

8 Baldridge -- here is Mr. Baldridge, and then we are 9 going to go to Marie Johnson.

10 MR. BALDRIDGE: Good evening. When you 11 sit back and you think about an EIS process, I think 12 it's an incredible thing. And so, part of the goal --

13 and having gone through it and coming out of the 14 mining industry -- the key -- the thing that I think 15 is so important is that all of the pieces are heard.

16 Every concern needs to be considered inside of the 17 process, and that's why we're here. So whether you're 18 for it or not, getting the pieces and parts the facts 19 out so that those can be evaluated is critical.

20 I am a long-time Carlsbad resident --

21 Native New Mexican. I have raised my family -- my 22 wife and I have two kids and we've raised our family 23 here in Carlsbad. I have been involved in the 24 extraction industry through potash mining for over 30 25 years. And so that's a little bit about what I am NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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137 1 going to talk about today is because there has been 2 some -- some concern raised in and around potash 3 mining and what the impacts and the considerations in 4 and around that and oil and gas. I am very fortunate 5 to participate and sit on the joint technical 6 committee with oil and gas development and look at the 7 risk factors between those two operations and how the 8 interface with each other. And so, when we have 9 underground employees and we have oil and gas 10 drilling, and the safety and hydro-carbons involved 11 and those factors come to play, understanding those 12 and understanding the science behind that becomes 13 critical. And as the general manager for Intrepid's 14 operations here in New Mexico, I take that very 15 seriously -- the safety of our employees and -- as we 16 go through that process.

17 And so one of the things that we 18 determined after taking quite some time to look at 19 that was -- is that we saw that it was -- we didn't 20 see a credible risk factor in drilling, in fracking, 21 underneath our operations. And let me explain why 22 that is. And so, when fracking takes place, one of 23 the things is is you're applying pressure. And that 24 pressure, the release of that pressure is driven 25 horizontally along the bedding plains from a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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138 1 geological feature that exists. And so, that's the 2 natural tendency is for it to release that. It 3 doesn't mean that it doesn't ever go vertically. But 4 what it has to do to reach the surface, or even reach 5 the -- the salt formation that we mine potash in, is 6 that it has to go through numerous bedding plains.

7 And so every time that occurs, there is a place for 8 the release of that energy that exists. And so, it is 9 -- we are extremely confident. And the fact is is 10 that we can frack and mine potash safely and coexist 11 with each other in the same basin.

12 And so, when you think about that, now 13 taking a look at that surface expression and it does 14 -- fracking or oil and gas development or potash 15 mining have an impact inside of this operation, and 16 you have to sit back and think, look, not only do you 17 have the bedding plains that exist between where the 18 oil and gas development is, you have over 150 bedding 19 plains that exist inside of the salt formation to the 20 surface for addition. As well, one of the unique 21 things that -- in and around salt, is -- is that it 22 absorbs energy. And so, whether that is from any 23 potential seismic or fracking or anything that is, 24 what a unique place in geologic feature to place this 25 facility over the top of is our very salt bed? It is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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139 1 an extremely unique, safe location to be able to do 2 that.

3 So, because of these things as well, I had 4 the opportunity when Holtec came in, they were looking 5 for a facility, and who ended up having the mining 6 leases where they were looking at happened to be our 7 facilities. And so took a great deal of time to take 8 a look at their project -- the technology that they 9 were utilizing and the licensing behind it. So we 10 felt comfortable because we are going to be neighbors 11 with that project before we agreed and signed 12 contractually with them to release our mining leases 13 to support this project.

14 So, not just from a -- a personal 15 standpoint, or from a business standpoint, and a 16 community standpoint, the organization that I work 17 for, Intrepid Potash, was willing to release their 18 mining leases for this to exist because we think that 19 this economic development will help and support the 20 quality of life for our employees here in Carlsbad.

21 So, thank you for your time.

22 MR. CAMERON: Thank you, Mr. Baldridge.

23 We are going to Marie. And then we are going to go to 24 Roxanne Lara, Jay Jenkins, Norbert Rempe. This is 25 Marie.

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140 1 MS. JOHNSON: Let's see how this works.

2 Okay, it works pretty good. My name is Marie Johnson 3 and I want to thank my husband there because, like, 4 when we came in I said, baby, we are only going to 5 stay for a few minutes. We are not going to stay that 6 long. And when I started hearing these people talk.

7 And then I -- it got to me. Our lives begin to end 8 the day we become silent about the things that matter.

9 And this matters to me. I am from Carlsbad. I am a 10 mother. I am a grandmother. I have got a son that 11 was on a nuclear submarine. They called him a nuke.

12 So I am not anti-nuclear. But what I have heard 13 people talk about -- talk about the animals, talked 14 about how safe it was -- right? Talked about, oh, it 15 is only going to be temporary. So, like, permanent?

16 When you've got to get them every six weeks? You 17 know? Because you've got to get a touch-up, but it 18 ain't really permanent?

19 (Laughter.)

20 MS. JOHNSON: That's what I hear you 21 talking about. So I want to take a line from 22 Hamilton, and it says, hear ye, hear ye, Nuclear 23 Regulatory Commission. The elected officials, the 24 city councilman, the businessmen, do not speak for me.

25 I am Carlsbad.

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141 1 (Applause.)

2 MS. JOHNSON: Let me tell you about the 3 people that aren't here that look like me and who 4 don't look like me. This is a sparse population. We 5 have transportation problems. We have things coming 6 up. People can't get around if you don't have a car.

7 We don't have mass transit here, okay? So the people 8 that look like me, they aren't here. So guess what, 9 who is going to speak for those people?

10 PARTICIPANT: You are.

11 MS. JOHNSON: Yes. I thought I was 12 through doing this kind of stuff.

13 (Applause.)

14 MS. JOHNSON: But I guess I am not.

15 Because let me tell you something, just because we 16 have a sparse population, did we matter less than 17 somebody who has 160,000 people? Or has 2 million 18 people? Do we matter less?

19 (Simultaneous speaking.)

20 MS. JOHNSON: So, when you're doing that 21 impact statement, I want you to look at the people and 22 think about what happened to the people in New Orleans 23 when the levy broke. Oh, yes, the PhDs got out. The 24 people with the Mercedes got out. But guess what 25 happened, we -- we couldn't get out. So what happens?

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142 1 Think about that, okay? And I know I am getting a 2 little excited, so let me just take a breath.

3 (Laughter.)

4 MS. JOHNSON: Namaste, whatever. All I 5 want to say to you is that -- think about the people.

6 And just because we are not a lot of people -- this is 7 only 35 miles away from a population center. We live 8 in the desert where -- it's not like a place where 9 you've got lots of rain and lots of water and if you 10 mess up you go, oh, that's all right, baby, we'll 11 clean that up. And there's going to be some rain and 12 it's going to grow again. Once you mess us up, we're 13 stuck like Chuck. Thank you very much.

14 (Applause.)

15 MR. CAMERON: Thank you. Thank you, 16 Marie. And this -- Rocky?

17 MS. LARA: Now, if you hear me shiver, 18 it's not because I am nervous. I have been shaking 19 the last few minutes here. Good evening, my name is 20 Rocky Lara. And I am a former county commissioner, a 21 former member of the Eddy-Lea Energy Alliance -- a 22 former officer with the Energy Communities 23 Association, former member of the Mayor's Task Force 24 and all of those things. But more importantly, I am 25 a citizen and resident and business owner in this NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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143 1 community. I was born and raised in Carlsbad. My 2 parents were born and raised in Carlsbad. My husband 3 was born and raised in Carlsbad. All of our family 4 remains here. We built our business here and we never 5 look to live anywhere else.

6 And that's more important than all of 7 those jobs I've had because I would never support 8 anything that I thought was not safe for our community 9 and not safe for our family. And I support this 10 project because here's the thing, experience is what 11 counts. I come from a background of law and politics, 12 and the one thing that carried across the board was 13 the likelihood of success often depended on 14 experience. And this community has unique 15 considerations. This community has experience --

16 experience in knowing its Cinderella geology. It's 17 just right. Experience in knowing the processes and 18 the procedures. Experience in dealing with nuclear 19 waste for a number of years.

20 So what that brings is the fact that we 21 know what questions to ask. We know when something 22 doesn't sound right. We know when we should be 23 looking out for our families and our community. And 24 those questions have been asked. And that's why so 25 many leaders and so many residents of this community NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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144 1 support this project. So you will hear a lot of 2 opinions and a lot of opinions that are built on what-3 ifs and built on fears and built on not taking the 4 time to really become educated about this particular 5 project and the things that are involved in this 6 particular and very specific process. And opinions 7 are great for discussion. But decisions are made of 8 acts. And the facts, coupled with our experience, 9 support the licensing of this project. I worked on 10 this project many years ago for several years. I 11 supported it then. I support it now, and my family 12 stands with me. Thank you.

13 MR. CAMERON: Thank you. And here is a 14 former, student, right? Okay, it's Jay -- Jay 15 Jenkins. And then we're going to go to Norbert Rempe 16 and we're going to go to Sister Marlene.

17 MR. JENKINS: Thank you. Good evening, 18 thank you, my name is Jay Jenkins and I am a local 19 businessman here in Carlsbad. I grew up, attended 20 Carlsbad schools, moved away to go to college. Ended 21 up getting a job, but had an opportunity to relocate 22 back to Carlsbad in 1998 and I have been here ever 23 since. My family lives here and I plan on being here 24 the rest of my life. I have had the opportunity to be 25 involved in the community in several different aspects NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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145 1 and love Carlsbad. I am a resident now of Eddy 2 County. I live south of Loving and with that I have 3 had the opportunity also to serve -- and currently 4 serve on the Mayor's Nuclear Task Force. I chose to 5 do that to educate myself with the nuclear industry.

6 As such, I had the opportunity with a 7 separate group about two to three years ago to travel 8 to Minnesota and tour the Xcel nuclear facility known 9 as the Monticello Plant. I got to witness firsthand as 10 a lay person what that whole facility was about. I 11 also got to witness and visualize the spent nuclear 12 fuel at that facility. I also got to see and listen 13 to the challenges that they face with the facility 14 that they're out of room with storing that particular 15 product. And I come today to speak in favor of this 16 project. I speak in favor of Holtec for all the 17 reasons that have been voiced before.

18 With that, it was said earlier, just like 19 with WIPP, it's great that we are providing solutions 20 for the country. Here is another opportunity that we 21 have chosen to be a part of and provide another 22 solution for the country. In some of the involvement 23 I've been -- I have had the opportunity to go to 24 Washington, D.C. on several occasions, and there is no 25 more pride that someone as a local person can have to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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146 1 go to the Department of Energy facility and you see 2 that big map when you walk in, and there's a little 3 dot -- there's dots for the Department of Energy 4 facilities around the country, and there's one dot 5 right there that shows Carlsbad, New Mexico. It will 6 be great to show another dot representing this 7 facility. So thank you for hearing our comments this 8 evening and thank you for the opportunity.

9 MR. CAMERON: Thank you very much, Jay.

10 Is Norbert here? Okay. And then we will go to Sister 11 Perrotte.

12 MR. REMPE: Good evening. I am Norbert 13 Rempe, a resident of Carlsbad. I am going to speak 14 from a perspective as a U.S. taxpayer and electric 15 rate payer because they will eventually pay for this.

16 There are currently three options that are apparently 17 reasonably viable -- and that's Yucca Mountain, 18 Holtec, and WCS. I count Yucca Mountain among them 19 because the regulations say Yucca Mountain has to be 20 retrievable for up to 300 years if it ever starts 21 operating. And the blue ribbon commission was 22 mentioned several times. It was basically political 23 cover for the attempted assassination of the Yucca 24 Mountain project by the previous administration in 25 collusion between the Senate majority leader at the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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147 1 time and the president.

2 Without the Yucca Mountain politics, I 3 don't believe we would even be looking at either the 4 Holtec or the WCS proposal. This project is therefore 5 premised on the ultimate death of Yucca Mountain. I 6 have been to Yucca Mountain twice. I have read a lot 7 of literature about it. I can't think of a real show 8 stopper of why it wouldn't work. So that up front.

9 Now about trust in the NRC. I think the 10 trust in the NRC has been compromised over the last 11 few years, and I will give you two examples why.

12 First, the NRC under its previous chair -- two chairs 13 back -- collaborated in the attempted assassination of 14 the Yucca Mountain project for political reasons. And 15 it has now for over three years already virtually 16 ignored a former petition to challenge the discredited 17 linear north-end theory and the ALARA concept. And 18 both of those have recently been discredit for this --

19 for decades and lead to enormous cost for the 20 taxpayer. Many decisions are not driven by science, 21 not even by evidence. And I can quote a bunch of 22 examples from the DOE National Labs and I just did 23 from the NRC.

24 So the NRC really must reestablish the 25 reputation it once had. And it can do that only if it NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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148 1 look not only at nuclear safety -- and say nuclear 2 safety is number one. It needs to look at the whole 3 safety. My guess is Holtec is probably safe from a 4 nuclear perspective. But we have one recent bad 5 example here in Carlsbad. For example, tonight, when 6 there was the talk about the 2014 incidents at WIPP, 7 everyone was talking about the radiological incident.

8 The fire was the one that was the one that was most 9 threatening to the workers at WIPP at the time. The 10 radiological consequences were insignificant compared 11 to the potential hazard from the fire.

12 So we need to ask ourselves, do the 13 radiological risks really outweigh the simple risk of 14 industrial and transportation accidents? For example, 15 if we have interim storage instead of taking this 16 stuff to a final repository, we need to double handle 17 it. We need to transport it twice instead of once.

18 And that would, of course, not be needed if we 19 proceeded with the Yucca Mountain project instead. So 20 I am very doubtful that the Holtec proposal, or the 21 alternative CWCS proposal would be a good and prudent 22 use of taxpayer funds. I do remain open to be 23 convinced otherwise, but that has not yet happened.

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149 1 about the death zones in Hanford, Rocky Flats, 2 Chernobyl, Fukushima, et cetera. That's utter 3 nonsense. I personally have been to Chernobyl three 4 years ago and I got five to six times more radiation 5 exposure in flying over there than I got in the same 6 time that I spent in the exclusion zone. So, we need 7 to really talk about facts rather than emotional 8 claptrap.

9 MR. CAMERON: Okay, thank you. Thank you, 10 Mr. Rempe. Sister Perrotte? And then we are going to 11 go to Dayton McCullough and Mark Schinnerer. I'm --

12 I know I mispronounced that. But, Sister?

13 SISTER MARLENE PERROTTE: Good evening.

14 I am sister Marlene and I am a Sister of Mercy. And 15 I am here just to bring up a few considerations. One 16 of the consideration that I think happens is that 17 we're looking at the interim depository. However, I 18 think before we look at that, there's a false 19 assumption. And I think the false assumption is that 20 communities that already have spent rods want them 21 moved. I have signatures of over 100 Sisters of Mercy 22 that live in different parts of Connecticut; New 23 Hampshire; Vermont; Maine; New York; Omaha, Nebraska; 24 and California. And the conversation was ethical 25 consideration. Because there is no endpoint.

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150 1 Endpoint in no more nuclear spent rods -- no more 2 nuclear power plants and no permanent repository.

3 Therefore, what this permit is is just in the middle.

4 It doesn't consider the beginning, getting the rods to 5 the place. All it is is the middle. So I think this 6 is a real ethical dilemma because what we're talking 7 about is the cumulative issues. And we're also 8 talking about the precautionary principle. And I 9 would just want to say, there are accidents. They --

10 several people brought up the accident at WIPP, which 11 was not supposed to happen, and it happened in 15 12 years. But what is not said is how many other 13 canisters have the same material? And could it happen 14 again?

15 So, precautionary principle -- there is no 16 way that we can see within those canisters whether 17 there's cracks, how we can remedy them, et cetera. So 18 on behalf of over 100 sisters, I would say we do not 19 consent to New Mexico becoming a national radioactive 20 waste dumping ground for all the high-level nuclear 21 waste from commercial power plants nationwide. We do 22 not consent to transporting up to 10,000 canisters of 23 highly radioactive waste through thousands of 24 communities nationwide and subject them to 25 possibilities of accidents. While we do support the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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151 1 alternative of hardened onsite storage at the DEER 2 (phonetic) reactor sites. And I believe Don Hancock 3 said we should be looking at comparative values.

4 Thank you.

5 MR. CAMERON: Okay, thank you Sister.

6 Thank you. And is Dayton here? Come on up Dayton and 7 then we'll see if Mark is here. This is Dayton.

8 MR. MCCULLOUGH: It's actually Denton.

9 MR. CAMERON: Oh, Denton. Okay, sorry.

10 This is Denton.

11 MR. MCCULLOUGH: It's a common mistake.

12 My name is Denton McCullough, I am a resident at 13 Carlsbad and I'm here to protest this project.

14 Carlsbad is a very unique place. We have 15 a river runs through it, we have two national parks, 16 we have the forest, Sacramento Mountains, Guadalupe 17 Mountains. It's a very wonderful recreation area.

18 We have a lot of tourism and a lot of 19 retirees. I think if we have a nuclear facility like 20 this it's going to impact our city. As a city, it's 21 going to change and it won't be recognizable if this 22 project goes through.

23 I've heard people say that this is a 24 remote area. Actually, it's not so remote anymore.

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152 1 here for the last 50 years. And I've heard in the 2 last, last year, now we have a population of 70,000, 3 with the oil and gas industry, Caroline is supposed to 4 be talking to you on, 70,000 people in Carlsbad.

5 So, with the local, total population, I 6 think with Eddie Lee and Chaves County, is probably 7 over 200,000 by now. So it is not a remote sparsely 8 populated area anymore.

9 So I don't think it's fair this many 10 people to take the risk of having this nuclear waste 11 here. Let's see if I had something else to say here.

12 Basically, I think it would actually 13 destroy the character of Carlsbad. I live here and I 14 like this place, it's a great place. It's a good 15 place to live. We have great weather, we have a 16 river, we have lots of recreation, lots of things to 17 do.

18 So I think it's a matter of perception.

19 If people are aware of that this nuclear waste is 20 going to be sent to Carlsbad, I don't think that many 21 people want to come here. They're not going to want 22 to retire here. And I'm pretty sure it will affect 23 our tourist industry as well.

24 So, I do not consent, I don't support this 25 program. Thank you.

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153 1 MR. CAMERON: Okay, thank you. Thank you, 2 Mr. McCullough. Is Mark, no, okay.

3 Sister Joan, do you want to come up?

4 Thanks. Thanks, Jose. This is Sister Joan Brown.

5 SISTER JOAN: Good evening and thank you 6 for being here again, and I'm here again. I was in 7 Roswell and back to Albuquerque and back here again.

8 And I am because this is a very important 9 issue. And I want to speak to the environment justice 10 concerns again.

11 In our religious traditions, we really 12 believe that we need to be prudent in making decisions 13 and care for generations. And we have not been in the 14 past.

15 And I don't think that by moving this 16 nuclear waste from one place to another without a 17 permanent repository is being prudent. Because we 18 haven't dealt with the waste, moving it to another 19 spot is not solving the issue.

20 And the environmental justice concerns are 21 huge. And so the map that Lon put forth earlier, I 22 have an original copy of that.

23 We did this in collaboration with 24 community organizations throughout the state to help 25 in education so that they saw that their accumulative NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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154 1 effects of the choices that have been in this state in 2 regard to the nuclear fuel chain.

3 People have talked about health concerns.

4 Maybe we need to put money into cleaning up the 5 uranium mines and the contamination that's causing 6 cancer and polluted water in our state.

7 Maybe we need to be addressing that 8 nuclear problem that we have below Los Alamos National 9 Lab with the San Ildefonso Santa Clara and the Acequia 10 People. Those are some of the issues.

11 Its compounded upon compounded here in the 12 state. So if we're looking at environmental justice 13 it's for this region, but it's actually the entire 14 state.

15 Which is, if this industry were so good, 16 we would not be the poorest in the nation, the 50th in 17 education, 50th in health, 50th in poverty, 50th in 18 children's poverty. Those continue to be realities 19 for the entire state. And the great deal of that is 20 here.

21 No matter what people say about, this is 22 a very wealthy area, it belies that if you look at the 23 statistics. So I invite you to look at those 24 statistics for the entire state.

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155 1 mention is, we, the faith leaders that, and I 2 appreciate your reading the letter that we had with 70 3 faith leaders signing that, and I am reporting back to 4 them some more information, but there is a concern for 5 things like the seismic activity.

6 Bloomberg put out, several weeks ago, a 7 study from Stanford stating that in Oklahoma, and the 8 headline stated, Mexico and Texas you need to look at 9 this, but in Oklahoma, within a five year period, 10 there was seismic activity for 6,000 years. And so we 11 are looking at a boom here in this area, in the 12 Permian basin, that will be happening into the future, 13 that I am sure the research that you have, or that has 14 been presented, is old and it is no longer accurate.

15 Added to that is one other piece of 16 science so folks here are so into science, which I am 17 so grateful for, is climate science. And I would like 18 to have you look at the future and what would be the 19 challenges in terms of heat here and also 20 unprecedented flood, torrential flood.

21 Which this region has had. Which is 22 predicted for our region to have with climate change.

23 So I think those are things that also need to be 24 considered. So thank you very much.

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156 1 Gardner. And then Noel.

2 MS. GARDENER: I'm so glad you called.

3 MR. CAMERON: Does it make you feel 4 warmer?

5 MS. GARDENER: A little bit. A little 6 bit. Hi everybody, I'm Rose Gardner from Eunice, New 7 Mexico, also a member of the Alliance for 8 Environmental Strategies.

9 I wanted to ask if at all possible if we 10 could have some of these applications available to 11 some of the other communities? For instance, Eunice, 12 Jal, Lovington, Tatum and other communities in Eddy 13 County which are too numerous to name.

14 I just feel like a lot of times we don't 15 have the access to computers, the internet is slow, 16 the ADAMS system doesn't always work like it needs to.

17 Anyway, we need to have more information, if at all 18 possible, please.

19 I would also ask for an extended comment 20 period. It's way too short, the deadline is coming up 21 and there is a lot of community work being done right 22 now.

23 I would ask that you extend meetings to 24 many, many more communities that are in the transport 25 routes. Some are small, some are big but there are NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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157 1 major hubs especially that I feel need to have the 2 knowledge about what's fixing to happen if this thing 3 gets approved.

4 I'm also concerned, and feel like the 5 communities need to be informed about H.R.3053. That 6 has not been passed, it has not been changed therefore 7 it makes this NRC scoping hearing not legal.

8 I would also ask that additional 9 characterization of the site, it has been several 10 years since it was done for the GNEP project. Things 11 change, the land changes.

12 We know that there are studies already 13 showing that things are happening. I would request 14 that additional studies be made.

15 We've already been made aware of the two 16 train derailments on May 1st in Barstow, Texas and 17 Odessa, Texas. The head-on train wrecks in Monahans, 18 Texas, which is another hub where trains are very 19 numerous.

20 Numerous political leaders today made 21 reference to the WIPP facility, how they feel it's a 22 success. It's a $2 billion failure.

23 My information is that also, these testing 24 that were done on some casks, not necessarily the 25 Holtec casks, are not really legitimate and valuable NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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158 1 in this situation since they were not Holtec casks.

2 Were those casks loaded with radioactive materials, 3 probably not. Because that would be very dangerous to 4 do tests on materials like that, wouldn't it?

5 We've been told that they've been having 6 drop tests and missiles, but not with loaded casks.

7 So how can those be postulated and made more real.

8 Again, those tests need to be redone using the casks 9 that are being considered.

10 My community of Eunice is becoming very 11 concerned about what's going on. A lot of the Eunice 12 folks that have never turned out to these hearings 13 showed up in Hobbs.

14 They came home calling me up and asking 15 me, what are we going to do, what can we do to stop 16 Holtec. They are asking me to give them information 17 that you people need to give. That --

18 (Off microphone comment) 19 MS. GARDENER: Yes. I believe that there 20 is a lot of anxiety and angst that questions have been 21 raised. And the NRC needs to deal with it not just 22 the local community.

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159 1 for the purpose of consolidated interim storage. It's 2 not that I'm unpatriotic, I'm just not stupid.

3 (Laughter) 4 MS. GARDENER: We are considered the land 5 of enchantment with a wonderful forest and mountains 6 and these rivers that are so precious. We are not 7 going to be considered the land of high-level nuclear 8 waste. I will continue to fight against this 9 facility. Thank you.

10 MR. CAMERON: Okay, thank you.

11 (Applause) 12 MR. CAMERON: Thank you, Rose. And Noel.

13 And since it is so cold in here I would just ask, 14 those of you who have talked before to speak to Chris.

15 (Off microphone comment) 16 MR. CAMERON: They've tried everything, 17 you know. Go ahead, Noel.

18 MR. MARQUEZ: Noel Marquez, Artesia, New 19 Mexico.

20 (Speaking foreign language) 21 MR. MARQUEZ: If you feel left out of this 22 conversation, think about what we feel.

23 (Applause) 24 MR. MARQUEZ: As a Chicano and Mexican 25 community, we are being targeted by not only the DOE NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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160 1 as a sacrifice zone, but also by other government 2 agencies which are aiming to deport us and put us in 3 detention centers.

4 It is no wonder our communities hesitate 5 to come to these badly designed meetings over two 6 hours6.944444e-5 days <br />0.00167 hours <br />9.920635e-6 weeks <br />2.283e-6 months <br /> long and limited to a very short statement on 7 such an advertent and extremely important issue. All 8 our lives are at stake.

9 If we still live in a democracy, this 10 eminent domain attack should be put up for a vote for 11 the citizens of New Mexico to decide whether they want 12 this Holtec high-level radioactive storage business 13 that will be subsidized without tax dollars in the 14 long run.

15 These NRC meetings should also be in Gala, 16 Las Cruces, Albuquerque, Alamogordo and Santa Fe.

17 This should start at no later than 4 o'clock for 18 citizens to speak and exercise our responsibilities.

19 We are the protectors of our freedoms and 20 our environment better than the flawed, the business 21 of flawed science. We have been overwhelming, we have 22 been the overwhelming opposition, a number of voices 23 of repeating in Hobbs, Roswell and Artesia where we 24 were not invited.

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161 1 seriously.

2 MR. CAMERON: And, Noel, could you sum up 3 for us please?

4 MR. MARQUEZ: The racism of this area has 5 a long dark history of deportations and segregation.

6 My mother was a student in the loving schools which in 7 the mid-1940's put Black, Indian and Chicano students 8 out in the small shack apart from the White students 9 in the new school building. U.S. Senator Denis Chavez 10 came to Carlsbad and Loving and threatened to end 11 federal funding if this racist practice was not ended.

12 An attack on the money made to school 13 system complied to let in all students, stay in the 14 same building together. But that did not end the 15 racism as we are seeing today.

16 I honored these brave and hard-working 17 ancestors, grandparents and parents in my mural in 18 front of the Carlsbad Library.

19 During that segregated period, my aunt 20 told me they were constantly told they were not meant 21 to have an education, they were born to work the 22 fields like burros. They worked very hard so we could 23 go to universities and get our education so we could 24 defend our communities, and ourselves, and tell their 25 stories.

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162 1 I appeal to the good people of Carlsbad, 2 which are the majority. Don't let John Heaton and his 3 group of compromised politicians have their way.

4 Thirty state representatives already came out in favor 5 to slow this process down --

6 MR. CAMERON: Okay, Noel, thank you.

7 MR. MARQUEZ: -- in order to allow them --

8 MR. CAMERON: I'm going to have to ask you 9 to stop.

10 MR. MARQUEZ: -- and the people to have an 11 --

12 MR. CAMERON: Noel?

13 MR. MARQUEZ: -- opportunity --

14 MR. CAMERON: Noel?

15 MR. MARQUEZ: -- to make --

16 MR. CAMERON: Noel, come on, we got a lot 17 of people.

18 MR. MARQUEZ: -- an informed decision.

19 MR. CAMERON: Thank you. Okay, goodnight.

20 MR. MARQUEZ: It's fine, you allow us to 21 speak.

22 MR. CAMERON: Goodnight.

23 (Applause) 24 MR. CAMERON: Okay.

25 (Off microphone comments)

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163 1 MR. CAMERON: At four minutes, hey, look 2 --

3 (Off microphone comments) 4 MR. CAMERON: No. Some people, okay.

5 (Off microphone comments) 6 MR. CAMERON: Mary Beth Brangan. We're 7 going to go on. Is she here?

8 (Off microphone comment) 9 MR. CAMERON: I said that. I said that.

10 (Off microphone comments) 11 MR. CAMERON: Okay.

12 (Off microphone comments) 13 MR. CAMERON: Phillip Valdez. Phillip 14 Valdez?

15 (Off microphone comments) 16 (Applause) 17 MR. CAMERON: We're not switching minutes, 18 sorry. Okay?

19 (Off microphone comments) 20 MR. CAMERON: Oh, good. Good. Glad 21 you're there. Thank you. Are you going to talk?

22 MR. VALDEZ: I'm going to talk briefly --

23 MR. CAMERON: Good. Okay.

24 MR. VALDEZ: -- but I'm asking that you 25 give Noel his proper time.

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164 1 MR. CAMERON: I did give Noel his proper 2 time.

3 MR. VALDEZ: People are timing.

4 MR. CAMERON: Four minutes.

5 (Off microphone comments) 6 MR. VALDEZ: People are timing.

7 MR. CAMERON: That's right, and I said it 8 was a four minute thing at the beginning.

9 (Off microphone comment) 10 MR. CAMERON: Okay.

11 MR. VALDEZ: So you're not cutting him 12 off?

13 MR. CAMERON: I asked him to sum up, I 14 wasn't badgering him.

15 MR. VALDEZ: He is from here --

16 MR. CAMERON: Okay? Do you want to talk?

17 MR. VALDEZ: I do want to talk --

18 MR. CAMERON: Then go ahead and we'll 19 talk.

20 MR. VALDEZ: -- I want to address what 21 just happened.

22 MR. CAMERON: Go ahead. Nothing happened.

23 Okay, Noel, we're going to give you one 24 more minute and, Kevin, Kevin?

25 MR. KAMPS: Yes.

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165 1 MR. CAMERON: Will you time the minute and 2 when it's up --

3 MR. KAMPS: Hey, Chip, I'll time you any 4 time you want.

5 MR. CAMERON: Go ahead. Go ahead. Go 6 ahead, you got a minute, Noel. Go ahead.

7 MR. KAMPS: -- because I don't trust you.

8 MR. MARQUEZ: As I was saying, if we live 9 in a democracy, the same eminent domain and time 10 should be put up for a vote for the citizens of New 11 Mexico to decide whether they want Holtec high-level 12 radioactive storage business that will be subsidized 13 with their tax dollars.

14 These NRC meetings should also be in 15 Gallup, like I said, Los Cruces and Albuquerque and 16 Alamogordo and Santa Fe.

17 We are the protectors of our freedoms and 18 our environment better than the business of flawed 19 science. Okay, so, I appeal to the good people of 20 Carlsbad, which are the majority, not to let John 21 Heaton continue.

22 John continues to repeat the same target 23 mantra over and over, that the community is extremely 24 informed on nuclear issues and everybody in Eddy 25 County is in favor of nuclear waste. Not true, money NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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166 1 is their religion. A very few bad jobs are not 2 anywhere close to our livelihood and health of future 3 generations of the southwest region of the USA.

4 (Foreign language spoken) 5 MR. MARQUEZ: The ecology is all 6 connected, as my daughter has told you in Roswell.

7 (Native and foreign languages spoken) 8 MR. MARQUEZ: Power to all the people.

9 (Applause) 10 MR. CAMERON: Okay, thank you, Noel. And 11 is this Shaughnessy?

12 MR. SHAUGHNESSY: My name is Brendan, yes.

13 MR. CAMERON: Yes, Brendan Shaughnessy.

14 Go ahead.

15 MR. SHAUGHNESSY: You incorrectly assumed 16 that we were married? Yes, thank you. I don't trust 17 you either.

18 MR. CAMERON: I don't care.

19 MR. SHAUGHNESSY: This should be fair.

20 Every person should get the same amount of time, 21 that's basic.

22 MR. CAMERON: Why don't you use your time 23 now.

24 MR. SHAUGHNESSY: Yes, I will.

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167 1 what, I'm using it. That's your job, at the very 2 minimum.

3 I'd like to thank all of us stakeholders 4 gathered here in this cold garage that care about our 5 one and only planet earth that we all live on and call 6 home, that came out to these hearings to speak truth 7 to our educated concerns. You don't need to be a 8 local PhD to share concerns for this project that has 9 a far greater impact than is easily comprehensible.

10 I do not consent to bringing the highest 11 level of radioactive nuclear waste from the nation, 12 none of which New Mexicans benefitted from, to New 13 Mexico. I ask that the scoping period be extended and 14 that additional hearings be added in communities on 15 and around proposed transport routes.

16 Because this isn't just about Carlsbad, 17 Hobbs or Roswell, this stuff is coming from all over 18 the United States, to here. And even if you want it 19 here, what about all those people, those children, 20 those schools, those hospitals that are near the 21 trains, those highways, the truck drivers, the 22 conductors, all of those people that don't have a 23 voice tonight.

24 (Applause) 25 MR. SHAUGHNESSY: Thank you. So I ask NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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168 1 that the scoping period be extended and I also ask 2 for, sorry, I'm trying to find it, additional hearings 3 be added in those communities.

4 Some may shortsightedly think that this 5 project is okay in the short-term, but what about the 6 voiceless and their fragile future. The born and 7 unborn children whose fragile futures we are talking 8 about, plants, aquifers, wildlife and livestock who 9 are vital to our sustain survival, who aren't 10 represented at these hearings.

11 And just one final thought, the 12 stakeholders aren't just Carlsbad residents but the 13 entire nation and ecosystem. Thank you.

14 (Applause) 15 MR. CAMERON: Mary Beth.

16 MS. BRANGAN: I realized I should have 17 spoken as a Texan as well as from California, because 18 I am from San Antonio and I'm very concerned about my 19 Texas family as well as all of the other people in the 20 country.

21 I wanted to add to the comments that I 22 made the other night, about the huge number of train 23 accidents that are occurring every year. Even though 24 it's not a good idea to leave the canisters on the 25 beach in San Onofre, we're concerned that even moving NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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169 1 them minimally may be disastrous, because we don't 2 know what's inside.

3 I hope you can add to the scope the 4 examination of the contents of the canisters should 5 happen. And they can't be, right now with the method 6 used by Holtec, which is to weld them shut.

7 And currently the use of high burn up fuel 8 is effecting all of this as well. And that should be 9 investigated and added to the scope.

10 The high burn up fuel increases the 11 buildup of hydrides, which cause a buildup of gases 12 that are explosive. We don't know whether the train 13 vibrations will be enough to cause those hydrides that 14 are building up because of the high burn up fuel.

15 High burned up fuel is more than twice as 16 radioactive as the old kind of fuel and more than 17 twice as thermally hot. This really stresses the 18 zirconium cladding on the fuel rods and causes 19 potential, incredible, explosions.

20 So, this all needs to be added to the 21 scope. We need to make sure that, we would like to 22 move it, but minimally, minimal movement to the 23 closest appropriate place. Not to New Mexico.

24 So, as it stands now, Holtec's canisters 25 can't be inspected, they can't be repaired, you can't NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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170 1 open them to see what's going on. And currently, 2 that's an NRC requirement, if I'm not mistaken. So 3 that should be looked into as well.

4 There is no guarantee that, and these are, 5 again, containing the equivalent, roughly, amount of 6 cesium in each canister as was released in Chernobyl.

7 We have, one of our researchers in 8 California calls them Chernobyl cans. So we need to 9 look into all of those things in order to even do the 10 minimal transport.

11 Not to mention putting them on the rails, 12 which as I said the other day, we are having an 13 average of 12,000 major train accidents a year just 14 for the oil trains. An average of 8,000 to 9,000 15 injuries and an average of 800 fatalities per year.

16 Thank you.

17 (Applause) 18 (Off microphone comments) 19 MR. VALDEZ: Hello, everybody. And I'd 20 like to thank you guys again for taking the time, 21 everybody here, to listen to the comments and 22 concerns. I know it's cold and late, I just want to 23 say I appreciate it.

24 Some of the comments that I have for 25 tonight, the proposal says that it's 32 miles away NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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171 1 from population. It's been spoken about tonight, 2 multiple times, but that's just not so.

3 Traveling along the roads, the highways, 4 the lease roads around this proposed site are 1,000's 5 of members of this community. It happens 24/7. It's 6 part of our economy.

7 It kind of like be saying that the area 8 between Dallas and Fort Worth is a safe place to store 9 highly radioactive nuclear waste. I mean, there's 10 literally that much traffic and population around this 11 proposed site, all day, all the time.

12 So, for it to be said that it's 32 miles 13 away from population is just simply not true.

14 Also, I know it was stated earlier that it 15 wasn't effecting the Ogallala aquifer, the maps that 16 I've looked at shows that it is. And 32 miles is a 17 lot greater distance than 50 feet.

18 Fifty feet to the water table that effects 19 millions of people in many different states in this 20 country. So, that was a concern that I had, that I 21 wanted to bring to you all's attention.

22 Also, this future site that they're, I'm 23 sorry, one second, let me find, I just wanted to add 24 that, and this is taken from my friend Lorraine 25 actually, that they're calling the state a future site NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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172 1 as if it's already been approved. That's not the 2 case, this is just a proposal and its consent based.

3 So it sounds like to me that the members of this 4 community do not consent to this.

5 So, I wanted to also make a point, I 6 wanted to speak for those who cannot speak, that don't 7 have a voice, in the wildlife.

8 In 2008 the Bureau of Land Management 9 approved a consent plan for two rare species in 10 Southeastern New Mexico. And I know this has been 11 covered, it's the prairie chicken and the sand dune 12 lizard.

13 One of the actions taken in this 14 protection of one of these species, the prairie 15 chicken, is that they designate times where there can 16 be no activity in these areas during the mating 17 season. And I've worked in the oil field for 16 years 18 and I've been witnessed to, jobs don't go out until 19 9:00 a.m. because the hours prior to that is 20 designated for these prairie chickens.

21 I would just ask, how can it be said, as 22 it was earlier, that they do no inhabit the area when 23 the conversation plan covered 465 square miles that 24 include this proposed site?

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173 1 a prairie chicken, I have never seen a prairie chicken 2 or these lizards. One individual's opinion that they 3 aren't in this site is not factual. He's not out 4 there all the time. Not to mention the other forms of 5 wildlife that are in the area.

6 So, those are points that I wanted to 7 bring up for the animals that cannot speak. And so I 8 just ask that you will consider that.

9 And I just wanted to say one more thing.

10 To the gentleman earlier that said that we need to get 11 our facts, the fact is that we don't want this here, 12 that's a fact.

13 (Applause) 14 MR. VALDEZ: So, thank you.

15 MR. CAMERON: Lorraine?

16 MS. VILLEGAS: Hello again. Hello, 17 everybody. My name is Lorraine. I am not getting 18 paid to be here. I work in the oil and gas industry 19 so I am actually losing money for being here.

20 This is absolutely a greater cause. So I 21 am not from the outside, I am actually from the inside 22 and I have been inside for a long time. I interact 23 with my community on a daily basis on a personal 24 level.

25 I'd just like to repeat something that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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174 1 seven senators wrote to you in a letter that talks 2 about the efforts that have been made to fully educate 3 the general public about the project and to address 4 concerns that have been raised.

5 And we are constantly reminded by ELEA and 6 Holtec how concerned they are about our safety and 7 about our questions and about transparency, of course, 8 transparency, of course.

9 If we are transparent then why weren't we 10 allowed to participate in the tour of yesterday's 11 facility?

12 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: Right.

13 MS. VILLEGAS: I am expected to roll out 14 this red carpet and accept this waste into my 15 community but we can't even participate in the grand 16 tour of where this indestructible fantastic facility 17 is going to be located.

18 (Applause) 19 MS. VILLEGAS: So I am confused as to 20 where the transparency is. Today you met in Lea 21 County, my hood, and I wasn't invited. That meeting 22 was not open to the public.

23 So you are encouraging public 24 participation, you've had two chances in two days to 25 include us, but you did not include us. So I need a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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175 1 scientist to answer the question as to why we are not 2 included.

3 I know there is a lot in here who can 4 answer that, so if anybody is in here who can answer 5 that question I will be willing to ask it again later.

6 Thank you, guys.

7 This waste is not welcome, it's not 8 welcome here. Thank you.

9 (Applause) 10 MR. CAMERON: Susan? Susan Schuurman?

11 MS. SCHUURMAN: Thank you so much. It is 12 really cold in here. My name is Susan Schuurman. I 13 am a New Mexico resident. I have lived in New Mexico 14 for 25 years. I am a cancer survivor and I do not 15 consent to Holtec International brining high-level 16 radioactive waste to our State.

17 On Tuesday I spoke at the meeting in Hobbs 18 and shared my concerns that New Mexico has suffered 19 enough from the hands of the nuclear industry.

20 Yesterday I traveled with other concerned Americans to 21 the proposed site where Holtec wants to bring a 22 100,000 metric tons of high-level radioactive waste 23 for 120 years, but probably indefinitely.

24 We had been informed that there was going 25 to be a tour at the site and we wanted to learn more NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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176 1 about the project that this New Jersey based 2 corporation wants the NRC to approve.

3 To my surprise when we arrived to the site 4 and tried to join the group of people getting the tour 5 we were prevented from walking up to the tour by local 6 law enforcement, armed local law enforcement.

7 The sheriff's deputies very politely 8 informed us that they were instructed by the tour 9 organizers, which include the NRC, ELEA, Holtec 10 International, and a very mysterious non-profit called 11 the Center of Excellence for Hazardous Materials 12 Management.

13 It took a lot of work for me to figure out 14 what that acronym stood for. It was very unclear.

15 They call themselves the Center for Excellence, but 16 they are actually the Center of Excellence for 17 Hazardous Materials Management, and it is chaired by 18 none other than John Heaton.

19 Anyway, the sheriff's deputies were 20 instructed to keep the public away from the tour 21 leader. My question, if this project is as safe as 22 the booster's claim why prevent the public from going 23 on the tour? What do they have to hide?

24 And since you are spending taxpayer money 25 on this project why are you leaving taxpayers out of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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177 1 the process? I also would like to respond to Carlsbad 2 City Councilor Eddie Rodriguez who spoke tonight. He 3 brought up environmental justice.

4 He read the first part of EPA's definition 5 of environmental justice, he didn't read the second 6 part, and I quote, the second part says environmental 7 justice "will be achieved when everyone enjoys the 8 same degree of protection from environmental and 9 health hazards and equal access to the decision-making 10 process to have a healthy environment in which to 11 live, learn, and work." I and many others --

12 (Applause) 13 MS. SCHUURMAN: It's kind of obvious, 14 right, what got left out. I and many others argue 15 that New Mexico, a majority minority State, has not 16 enjoyed the same degree of protection from 17 environmental and health hazards already from the 18 contamination from the nuclear industry since the mid-19 1940s.

20 You've heard of the term piling on in 21 football, when more players than necessary jump on the 22 quarterback after he's already been sacked. Approving 23 -- You know where I'm going with this?

24 (Multiple yeses) 25 MS. SCHUURMAN: Approving CIS in New NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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178 1 Mexico would be just that, piling on to a community 2 that has already been tackled with an immense health 3 burden from uranium mining, spills, bombs, leaks, 4 nuclear stockpiles, and cancers. Don't pile on New 5 Mexico.

6 As for our funding, we are all unpaid 7 volunteers who are passionate about protecting New 8 Mexico from all things nuclear. Hold off, Chip. And, 9 finally, I just want to share --

10 MR. CAMERON: That's four minutes, go 11 ahead.

12 MS. SCHUURMAN: -- that any attempts, I 13 just want to share this, any attempts at intimidation 14 by project leaders will only strengthen our resolve.

15 And, finally, this is finally --

16 MR. CAMERON: I got it.

17 MS. SCHUURMAN: -- if we can't operate the 18 air conditioning how can we handle spent fuel rods?

19 (Applause) 20 MR. CAMERON: Leona?

21 MS. MORGAN: Okay. Good evening. To all 22 of those who were not at the previous scoping meeting 23 I am just going to introduce myself in my language 24 which is our traditional way that we, Dine, identify 25 ourselves, it's a form of kinship, a system that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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179 1 existed long before the United States, and so I would 2 like to remind everybody that we are on stolen land of 3 the Mescalero Apache and the Comanche peoples, whom of 4 none I see here.

5 And so my people are from the northwestern 6 part of New Mexico and earlier I heard a lot of talk 7 and just these warm sentiments about how this part of 8 the State knows about nuclear science and how much you 9 all welcome it.

10 Well in our corner of the State we know 11 about uranium mining, we know about the cancers, we 12 know about the birth defects, we know about 13 contamination to our lands, our water, our air, our 14 plants, our people, and we know that this will impact 15 us for generations to come.

16 Uranium mining is no joke. The 17 contamination that was left by the United States 18 Government is an atrocity, it's a sin. It's a 19 violation against our human rights and it's a form of 20 genocide, and that's exactly what this project is.

21 New Mexico should not be proud of its 22 nuclear legacy. New Mexico is the birthplace of 23 nuclear colonialism and you all today have a lot of 24 power in your position to stop this from continuing 25 and you all have a huge responsibility to our future NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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180 1 generations.

2 And I want to remind you that all of us in 3 this room are here because we care about this issue 4 and are passionate about it. Some people might be 5 passionate in support of it, but a lot of those folks 6 already left because they were lucky enough to be 7 called first, they were lucky enough to be at the head 8 of the line, all of whom are proponents of this 9 project, representatives of ELEA.

10 And it's really not a surprise to me that 11 the first brown man to speak against this project was 12 cut off before his time. This is a joke. This is 13 something that should not happen at a public meeting, 14 the same thing that happened yesterday when we were 15 all excluded from your site visit.

16 And so the other people I would like to 17 acknowledge here who are not here are the multitudes 18 of communities along the transportation routes who are 19 not here today, many of which do not even know about 20 this project.

21 So today I am going to read several 22 statements from folks who cannot be here today. And 23 so today our organization, the Nuclear Issues Study 24 Group, has a box of letters that we have collected 25 from New Mexicans and residents and community folks NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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181 1 who are very concerned about this project.

2 And I see you looking at your watch and I 3 am not going to stand here and take less time than you 4 gave other people earlier today. So --

5 MR. CAMERON: Let me get one thing clear 6 is that I gave all the people --

7 MS. MORGAN: You're taking some of my time 8 right now.

9 MR. CAMERON: Well I gave all the people 10 more time, okay.

11 (Off microphone comments) 12 PARTICIPANT: Please let her finish.

13 MR. CAMERON: Yes, great, I'd love to. Go 14 ahead.

15 MS. MORGAN: Okay. So right here in my 16 hand I have a box of more than 1300 signed letters 17 from people across the State who do not consent to 18 this project --

19 (Applause) 20 MS. MORGAN: -- most of whom don't even 21 know that this project exists. There is a lack of 22 transparency, there is a lack of inclusion, and it's 23 clear that you have all violated your own public 24 participatory process by excluding us from your 25 meeting yesterday.

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182 1 And so many of these people also feel 2 excluded. They are not standing here in this cold 3 room shivering waiting to get their five minutes, or 4 four minutes in some cases.

5 So I am going to read a couple statements 6 from some of these folks who deserve to be heard 7 today. "There is nothing safe about transporting or 8 storing nuclear waste. Los Alamos is proof enough of 9 this fallacy.

10 Recent accidents at Los Alamos National 11 Lab in WIPP indicate the process lacks rigor. The New 12 Mexico public demands detailed safety and 13 environmental review of all federal activities."

14 And this one was from a young resident who 15 was accompanied by their mother. "Hi. I am 14 years 16 old and I have two brothers, one sister. I don't want 17 to see my siblings get cancer. Don't put nuclear 18 waste in my State."

19 And this one comes from an Albuquerque 20 resident. "We can no longer afford to be the 21 sacrifice State. We can no longer afford to be at the 22 bottom in all categories. This effort connects 23 directly to our democracy, economy, health, and 24 education."

25 And then this one is also from another NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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183 1 Albuquerque resident. "As a family medicine physician 2 and public health practitioner in New Mexico I insist 3 that the full potential impact of this site might have 4 on my patients and our community be analyzed and 5 published prior to any further consideration of the 6 project."

7 And this, I'm going to skip a couple 8 because I know we are short on time and it is really 9 late. "New Mexico is worth more than to be a 10 wasteland. The United States should be a leader in 11 environmental solutions, not destroying it more.

12 Thank you."

13 And this one is from someone from Sandia 14 Park, New Mexico. "The choice to once again non-15 consensually expose residents to these dangerous 16 materials reflects poorly on you and yours. You work 17 for the citizens, yet your choices imply you believe 18 otherwise. Rectify this."

19 And the last comment I want to save is 20 from someone who worked at a nuclear facility that 21 caused a lot of contamination and was not properly 22 cleaned up. It says "used to work at Fernald in Ohio 23 as a union concrete finisher. This should be stopped.

24 Very dangerous."

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184 1 all to add to your comments and I assure you we will 2 be sending plenty more before the deadline and I 3 formally request that you extend this public comment 4 period to have more meetings and to also give time to 5 the Tribes who will be later in getting themselves 6 involved in this process, because there is not just 7 community folks left out, there is also several 8 indigenous nations that I mentioned at the previous 9 meetings. Thank you.

10 (Applause) 11 MR. CAMERON: Okay, Janet. Janet, do you 12 want to -- Go ahead.

13 MS. GREENWALD: So I am Janet Greenwald 14 and I am a co-coordinator of Citizens for Alternatives 15 to Radioactive Dumping. I am from Albuquerque and I 16 raised my children in Dixon, New Mexico, where some of 17 my children and grandchildren still live.

18 Dixon is a bedroom community and a 19 downwind community from Los Alamos National Lab and it 20 has been for 50 years. So from my perspective all the 21 projects, other nuclear projects except uranium 22 mining, are pretty youthful compared to Los Alamos.

23 And I wanted to say that when people get 24 up here and say that nuclear is good and nuclear isn't 25 dangerous I'd like to invite them to come with me to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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185 1 a meeting of a contaminated Los Alamos workers support 2 group on Saturday mornings in my library, or to come 3 with me to go through what a lot of pregnant couples 4 go through up there, and that is having to consider 5 whether their babies are going to be born deformed, or 6 come with me to talk with farmers who don't know 7 whether they are going to be able to sell their crops 8 because the headwaters of the river has been 9 contaminated with cesium, you know.

10 Our organization has monitored WIPP 11 forever and what we saw was that as time went by that 12 safety slipped, safety standards slipped, until 13 finally Susana Martinez decided not to fund the 14 training for workers from the New Mexico Environment 15 Department to be in the room with the people that were 16 packing the barrels to come to WIPP.

17 I think about this a lot. What if those 18 people had been there? What if they had been in the 19 room when those barrels were mispacked with the wrong 20 kind of kitty litter would they have caught it? Would 21 the workers at WIPP be safer now?

22 That's human nature. It's like I 23 understand from living in a bedroom community how you 24 need to sometimes balance safety risks, your own 25 safety, your own health, with support for your family.

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186 1 Well it isn't just individuals that have 2 to make those decisions. Governments, corporations, 3 everybody makes decisions. They put safety against 4 money and as a project grows older and nothing has 5 happened yet then safety starts slipping and cuts 6 start being made.

7 And in this case with high-level waste if 8 that happens it could be the end of everything that we 9 know and love. This whole project needs to be re-10 examined and the people that are doing it because of 11 money I don't know what to say about them.

12 I can only pray that somehow they change 13 their minds. It's a crazy project. It's so crazy.

14 It would endanger so many people. Thank you.

15 (Applause) 16 MR. CAMERON: And, Cody? Cody? And then 17 we are going to go to Eileen and then that's the end 18 of the speakers for tonight. This is Cody.

19 MR. SLAMA: Hello, everyone. So my name 20 is Cody Slama and today I am turning my back on the 21 NRC because yesterday they turned their back on me.

22 (Applause) 23 MR. SLAMA: It was a very disappointing 24 experience yesterday to go out and try to see that 25 site and learn a little bit, you know, but we didn't.

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187 1 We went out there and we were intimidated 2 by some of these elected officials and, yes, we were 3 intimidated a little bit, but that didn't scare us off 4 though.

5 We continued on because it was a county 6 road and you are allowed to go down that county road 7 and to see the site. But what we didn't do was we 8 didn't listen to the NRC because they didn't let us.

9 We didn't hear what the Eddy-Lea Energy 10 Alliance had to say because they kept us on the county 11 road while they walked a distance where we couldn't 12 hear them.

13 So that's a little bit about what happened 14 yesterday and I just wanted to share that with you 15 all. And there was ten of us out there, ten concerned 16 public citizens, and you know what, they just ignored 17 us, they did.

18 At one point one of them walked a few feet 19 in front of me and I said are you just going to ignore 20 us and not talk to us at all. Just shook their head 21 no, not going to talk with you guys today.

22 So, yes, that's how we are being treated, 23 you know, and here I am 11:00 -- What time is it 24 anyways, 11:30 at night, probably almost 12:00, I 25 don't know, but I am from Albuquerque and the reason NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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188 1 I am here is because they are not having meetings in 2 Albuquerque.

3 That's why these meetings are going so 4 late. I had to put that out there. I mean, yes, I'm 5 an activist just really concerned about everyone who 6 could be affected by this waste, particularly this 7 community the most because this is where all the waste 8 is going to end up and if an accident happens, a 9 barrel explodes, you all will be the most impacted, so 10 I am really concerned.

11 And, yes, I want to actually take a moment 12 -- Is Kevin still in here? No, Kevin walked out. I 13 don't know, I don't trust Chip with the time. Can 14 someone -- Kevin, one minute.

15 I need one minute, I just want a moment of 16 silence because as an activist -- It's actually really 17 hard to be anti-nuke activist because you go out into 18 the community, right, you collect 1300 letters and all 19 the time you have these people walk up to you and then 20 they tell you some horror story, right, like how 21 someone in their family worked in some uranium mines 22 and got cancer and they lost like their family, or you 23 hear about people at the labs who got sick because 24 they worked there, you know, and there wasn't proper 25 shielding and what not.

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189 1 So, yes, I just want to give one minute of 2 my time and if Kevin you could just signal whenever 3 it's up.

4 (Moment of silence) 5 MR. SLAMA: All right, so the minute is 6 up. Yes, let's keep those people in our hearts that 7 we lose to these issues and let's not let it happen 8 any more than it has to.

9 (Applause) 10 MR. CAMERON: Okay. Eileen?

11 MS. SHAUGHNESSY: All right. A round of 12 applause for all of us who are hanging in here with 13 these freezing garage.

14 (Applause) 15 MS. SHAUGHNESSY: Well, I spoke at a few 16 of the previous meetings and shared my thoughts as an 17 educator and as a concerned citizen and now I would 18 like to share my thoughts as a musician.

19 I believe art can be a powerful medium for 20 conveying information and I have written a song that 21 is particularly raising awareness about the 22 transportation issues with this proposed project, and 23 we have heard all night about the risks, we have heard 24 about how the railroad tracks are, they are not built 25 to hold this waste, and we have heard about how there NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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190 1 are hospitals and elementary schools along the way and 2 there are risks to the workers as well.

3 I also want to remind us that the U.S.

4 Department of Transportation says that on average 5 annually there is about almost 6000 train accidents 6 and there was a really horrific one in Roswell four 7 years ago that I want to remind people about.

8 And thank you, Leona, for reminding us 9 that we are on stolen land. Thank you, Cody, for 10 reminding us about all of the lives that have already 11 been harmed by nuclearism, and for the voiceless.

12 So this song, I just want to remind us 13 that we are all human beings with hearts pumping blood 14 through our bodies right now, that we are all 15 breathing the same air that, you know, is refueling 16 our bodies, and hopefully not hurting us.

17 Obviously when we are talking about 18 radiation it does hurt us. So I just want to remind 19 us that we are talking about future generations, 20 future life on this planet.

21 So this song is called "That Train Ain't 22 Going Nowhere." George, you worked on your railroad 23 lines, he loved taking pictures of the sky. What he 24 didn't know working there on the tracks was that 25 cancer was growing inside of him fast.

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191 1 See, he got a dose of radiation each time 2 he worked there at the station and his whole life he 3 never saw his mother cry. She never did till the day 4 he died too young.

5 That train ain't going nowhere. Baby, 6 that train ain't going nowhere. Baby, that train 7 ain't going nowhere. Baby, that train ain't going 8 nowhere. I'm seeing tears in the children's eyes, I'm 9 seeing broken hearts all down the line.

10 Wherever these trains will go they'll 11 leave a trail of pain and sorrow. Baby, this train 12 ain't going nowhere. Baby, that train ain't going 13 nowhere. Baby, that train ain't going nowhere. Baby, 14 that train going nowhere.

15 Antonia loved her first grade class. Her 16 school sat next to a railroad track and she loved to 17 watch those trains go by, and she'd count the cars 18 till it got too high.

19 Well she never learned about nuclear waste 20 or the spent fuel rods passing by her face. Her 21 family couldn't understand why she got ill, but now we 22 know radiation kills.

23 Do you hear it? Do you see it? Do you 24 feel it and believe it? We are the people, our hearts 25 are broken. We don't want this waste and we have NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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192 1 spoken.

2 Baby, that train ain't going nowhere.

3 Baby, that train ain't going nowhere. Baby, that 4 train ain't going nowhere. Let me hear you. Baby, 5 that train ain't going nowhere.

6 It's not going anywhere. Baby, that train 7 ain't going nowhere. Baby, that train ain't going 8 nowhere.

9 (Applause) 10 MS. SHAUGHNESSY: From my heart to yours, 11 NRC. Don't let this happen.

12 (Applause) 13 MR. CAMERON: Okay. We're giving it over 14 to Brian Smith to close the meeting out for us.

15 MR. SMITH: All right. Well, thank you 16 again, everyone, for coming out tonight. We really 17 appreciate all the comments we received. We will take 18 them into consideration as we complete our review and 19 draft our environmental impact statement.

20 We will be back out again probably next 21 summer after issuance of the draft EIS seeking further 22 public comment on that, so thank you again and have a 23 good evening.

24 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 25 off the record at 11:50 p.m.)

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