ML21223A089
| ML21223A089 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 07/23/2021 |
| From: | Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards |
| To: | |
| Nourbakhsh, H, ACRS | |
| References | |
| NRC-1600 | |
| Download: ML21223A089 (196) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards Safety Research Program Subcommittee Docket Number:
(n/a)
Location:
teleconference Date:
Friday, July 23, 2021 Work Order No.:
NRC-1600 Pages 1-151 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1
1 2
3 DISCLAIMER 4
5 6
UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSIONS 7
ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 8
9 10 The contents of this transcript of the 11 proceeding of the United States Nuclear Regulatory 12 Commission Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards, 13 as reported herein, is a record of the discussions 14 recorded at the meeting.
15 16 This transcript has not been reviewed, 17 corrected, and edited, and it may contain 18 inaccuracies.
19 20 21 22 23
1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
+ + + + +
3 ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 4
(ACRS) 5
+ + + + +
6 SAFETY RESEARCH PROGRAM SUBCOMMITTEE 7
+ + + + +
8 FRIDAY, JULY 23, 2021 9
+ + + + +
10 The Subcommittee met via Video 11 Teleconference, at 2:00 p.m. EDT, David Petti, 12 Chairman, presiding.
13 COMMITTEE MEMBERS:
14 MATTHEW W. SUNSERI, Member 15 RONALD G. BALLINGER, Member 16 VICKI BIER, Member 17 DENNIS BLEY, Member 18 CHARLES H. BROWN, JR. Member 19 VESNA B. DIMITRIJEVIC, Member 20 GREG HALNON, Member 21 WALTER L. KIRCHNER, Member 22 JOSE MARCH-LEUBA, Member 23 DAVID A. PETTI, Member 24 JOY L. REMPE, Member 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
2 ACRS CONSULTANT:
1 MIKE CORRADINI 2
STEVE SCHULTZ 3
4 DESIGNATED FEDERAL OFFICIAL:
7 ALSO PRESENT:
8 JEREMY BOWEN, RES 9
CHRISTOPHER COOK, RES 10 RAJ IYENGAR, RES 11 LOUISE LUND, RES 12 KEN MILLER, RES 13 SCOTT MOORE, Executive Director, ACRS 14 MERAJ RAHIMI, RES 15 STEVE RUFFIN, RES 16 DOGAN SEBER, RES 17 ROB TREGONING, RES 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
3 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 1
Opening Remarks and Objectives 2
By Matt Sunseri...............4 3
I. Introductory Remarks 4
By Louise Lund............... 7 5
II. Overview of the Division of Engineering 6
By Louise Lund..............
10 7
III. Discussion of Technical Research Activities 8
Regulatory Guide and Programs Management Branch 9
Reactor Engineering Branch 10 IV. Discussion of Technical Research Activities 11 and Focus Areas 12
- Regulatory Guide and Programs 13 Management Branch 14
- Reactor Engineering Branch 15
- Materials Engineering Branch 16
- Instrumentation, Controls, and 17 Electrical Engineering Branch 18
- Seismic, Geotechnical, and Structural 19 Engineering Branch, Dogan Seber....
127 20 V. Discussion.................
140 21 VI. Adjourn..................
151 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
4 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1
2:00 p.m.
2 CHAIR SUNSERI: Good afternoon, it is two 3
o'clock Eastern Time, this meeting will now come to 4
order. This is the Safety Research Program 5
Subcommittee meeting in preparation of the ACRS 6
Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards biennial 7
review of the NRC Safety Research Program. I'm Matt 8
Sunseri, Chair of today's subcommittee meeting, and 9
the ACRS lead for the review of the activities of the 10 Division of Engineering within the office of Nuclear 11 Regulatory Research.
12 I'm going to call the roll of the members 13 I expect to be present, and maybe, if I skip somebody, 14 we'll pick you up at the end. So, I'll start with Ron 15 Ballinger.
16 MEMBER BALLINGER: Here.
17 CHAIR SUNSERI: Vicki Bier?
18 MEMBER BIER: Here.
19 CHAIR SUNSERI: Charles Brown? Charlie 20 let me know he's here, he just had to step away for a 21 second. Vesna Dimitrijevic?
22 MEMBER DIMITRIJEVIC: I am here Matt.
23 CHAIR SUNSERI: Thank you, and Greg 24 Halnon?
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
5 MEMBER HALNON: I'm here.
1 CHAIR SUNSERI: Walt Kirchner?
2 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Here.
3 CHAIR SUNSERI: Jose March-Leuba?
4 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Here.
5 CHAIR SUNSERI: David Petti?
6 MEMBER DAVID PETTI: Here.
7 CHAIR SUNSERI: Joy Rempe?
8 MEMBER REMPE: Here.
9 CHAIR SUNSERI: All right, that's the --
10 MEMBER BLEY: So am I.
11 CHAIR SUNSERI: Dennis is here, okay, 12
- great, good Dennis.
And I
guess just for 13 completeness, I'll check Pete Riccardella, I don't 14 expect him, but all right, okay we have a quorum. We 15 hold this open meeting to gather information to 16 support our biennial review of the NRC Safety Research 17 Program. The ACRS section of the USNRC public website 18 provides our charter, bylaws, agendas, letter reports, 19 and full transcripts of all full, and subcommittee 20 meetings including the slides presented.
21 The meeting notice, and agenda for this 22 meeting are posted there. We have received no written 23 statements, or requests to make an oral statement from 24 members of the public. Mr. Hossein Nourbakhsh is the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
6 the designated federal officer for today's meeting.
1 The subcommittee will gather information, analyze 2
developing issues, and facts, and formulate proposed 3
positions, and actions as appropriate for deliberation 4
by the full committee.
5 A transcript of the meeting is being kept, 6
and will be made available. Due to the COVID 7
pandemic, today's meeting is being held over Microsoft 8
Teams for ACRS, and NRC staff. There is also a 9
telephone bridge line allowing participation of the 10 public over the phone. When addressing the 11 subcommittee, the participants should first identify 12 themselves, and speak with sufficient clarity, and 13 volume so they may be readily heard.
14 When not speaking, we request that 15 participants mute your computer microphone, or your 16 phone line. This is the second of three division 17 level reviews of the Safety Research Program. Our 18 comprehensive review began a couple of months ago with 19 an overview presentation by the Office of Research.
20 We have subsequently held one division level review in 21 the area of safety analysis, and we have a coming 22 review of the Division of Risk Analysis.
23 We use these reviews to evaluate, amongst 24 other things, the need, scope, and balance of the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
7 Agency Safety Research Program. Our review culminates 1
in a letter report to the commission that we 2
anticipate providing later this year. And today we 3
have a lot of material packed in here. We've got 4
about three, and a half hours of material, I plan to 5
take a break around the half-way point, sometime 6
between, we'll find a convenient blank between branch 7
chief presentations, and before I turn to Louise Lund, 8
I will ask Joy Rempe, our overall leader for this 9
annual review, if she has any comments that she wants 10 to make. Joy?
11 MEMBER REMPE: Well thank you Matt, I 12 don't, I think you've done a great job of summarizing 13 where we are, and where we're going, and I appreciate 14 it, and I appreciate your help, as well as the staff's 15 help in providing these overviews.
16 CHAIR SUNSERI: Thank you. All right, we 17 will now proceed with the meeting, and I call on 18 Louise Lund, the director of the Division of 19 Engineering of the NRC Office of Regulatory Research 20 to begin today's presentations. Louise, good to see 21 you.
22 MS. LUND: Good, yes, thank you very much.
23 Good afternoon, I'm Louise Lund, the director of the 24 Division of Engineering in the Office of Nuclear 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
8 Regulatory Research. This afternoon, you'll hear from 1
my deputy, Jeremy Bowen, branch chiefs, and one team 2
leader as they describe the activities in their areas.
3 We're pleased to be here to represent the staff, and 4
the division that all contribute to the significant 5
work accomplished to support the mission of the 6
agency.
7 As the second research division to make 8
the presentation, I wanted to include in my opening 9
remarks some of the themes that you heard from Ray 10 Furstenau, and Kim Webber at the beginning of the 11 Division of Systems Analysis presentation that apply 12 equally across the office. Specifically, we're 13 incorporating more transformative ways to complete our 14 work, and staff the organization given the changing 15 nuclear industry. Specifically an aging operating 16 fleet with more plants decommissioning, and a strong 17 interest in introducing new technologies to support 18 both the sustainability of the existing fleet, and the 19 deployment of advanced non-light water reactor 20 technologies.
21 As Ray mentioned, and I will repeat here, 22 we think it is important that we complete research 23 activities as they were originally scoped out, and we 24 are working diligently to transition to that mindset 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
9 throughout our division. You'll hear about some of 1
these completions from the branch chiefs during their 2
presentations. The key to this approach is completing 3
the requested reviews, getting feedback from our 4
business line partners in NRR, and NMSS, also in NSIR, 5
and by conducting the annual program reviews to ensure 6
that we stay focused on the activities important to 7
the mission of the agency.
8 This helps promote a culture that supports 9
doing the right research at the right time. Next 10 slide please. Overall our vision is to be the 11 technology, and engineering hub to help enable the 12 agency to become a more modern, risk informed 13 regulator. As such, we believe the key to achieving 14 this is to be ready for future technologies, to 15 advance regulatory technical knowledge, and build an 16 enhanced staff capacity, and competencies in emerging 17 technical areas.
18 I took over the leadership of the division 19 in mid-2019, and brought on Jeremy as my deputy in 20 early 2020. We took the opportunity to assess how the 21 division was positioned to support the future needs of 22 the agency. The management team that you will hear 23 from today has made it part of our culture to 24 continually assess the current, and future needs of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
10 the research programs, and staff capabilities, and to 1
explore collaborative engagements to increase the 2
leverage, and impact of our research activities.
3 As a result, the Division of Engineering 4
research programs are more agile, and we have 5
developed new approaches to ensure increased 6
transparency of our research activities. We recognize 7
that the nature of the engineering research programs 8
needed to evolve over the next five years with 9
increased emphasis on advanced, and new reactors, risk 10 informed approaches, applications of advanced 11 technology to reduce uncertainties, and risk, and 12 modernization of the existing fleet.
13 Also key to our future success is being 14 active in our engagements with a variety of 15 stakeholders, and in the robust identification of 16 potential future focus research. To match the 17 evolving nature of our programs, we recognize the need 18 to focus on building appropriate staff capacity in 19 evolving areas. We pursued hiring actions, and 20 training to develop, or enhance the important skill 21 sets of cyber security, advanced sensors, reactor 22 engineering, and materials engineering.
23 All of this was done with the focus of 24 having a
work force capable of working on 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
11 interdisciplinary activities. One of the biggest 1
challenges that we faced in the past 17 months has 2
been trying to meet our objectives with the backdrop 3
of this pandemic. I know we're not unique in this 4
respect, we've had to adapt, and evolve to meet, and 5
sometimes adjust milestones when there were impacts to 6
our contract activities due to restrictions to the 7
access in the laboratories.
8 One example of how we adapted is that we 9
had planned for a member of the Division of 10 Engineering staff to go on rotation to Oak Ridge 11 National Laboratory to get more familiar with 12 nondestructive examination for advanced manufacturing 13 technology. Although restrictions prevent the 14 physical rotation, we were able to turn it into a 15 virtual assignment, and he has been actively engaged 16 in that assignment for the past year, and we are 17 continuing to work with Oak Ridge to determine when he 18 can get on site to finish his rotation.
19 In a similar way we were looking at 20 getting help from the labs to build up capabilities in 21 cyber security. Although we had planned some in 22 person support, we ended up looking at alternative 23 ways to engage, and we ended up getting support 24 virtually in that area as well. Another area where we 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
12 were anticipating some in person interactions was in 1
our efforts on developing our understanding of the use 2
of graphite for advanced non-light water reactor 3
application.
4 We had in person engagements planned for 5
our regulatory counterparts in the UK, but we adjusted 6
to virtual bilateral discussions to continue our 7
collaborative efforts. We anticipate conducting in 8
person visits in the future. Slide three please.
9 CHAIR SUNSERI: Hey Louise, this is Matt, 10 let me ask a question right here. That was a great 11 example of some of the collaboration, and reaching 12 out, and using available resources, but my question is 13 outside of the pandemic, are you finding there's a lot 14 of competition for the available expertise? I mean 15 with all the advanced reactor work that's going on, 16 and their own research projects, are you finding it 17 difficult to get the resource you want, much less 18 notwithstanding the difficulties in actually being 19 able to communicate with them?
20 MS. LUND: Absolutely. I think that is 21 particularly true in cyber security, in also materials 22 engineering, but we're also finding that the clearer 23 we are in some of our postings as to what we're 24 looking for, and trying to not look for unicorns in 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
13 what we're looking for as well, I would say we've been 1
very successful in hiring up, and in fact Chris cook 2
can tell you about some of the success we've had in 3
hiring to start developing our cyber security 4
capacity, and some of the training that we've embarked 5
on in that area.
6 So, I would say yes, it's continued to be 7
a challenge, but I think we've been very successful in 8
bringing on some very competent, very highly skilled 9
individuals.
10 CHAIR SUNSERI: Thank you, I appreciate 11 that.
12 MS. LUND: So, for slide three, since the 13 office wide overview presentation to the committee 14 back in April, we've conducted a reorganization of the 15 Division of Engineering. This was done to rebalance 16 the staff, and work load to better align with the 17 evolving nature of our programs that I just discussed.
18 The recent reorganization puts us in the best position 19 to realize our vision, and accomplish our objectives, 20 so let me briefly introduce the branches, and branch 21 chiefs, three of which have changed since the program 22 review in 2019.
23 The regulatory
- guide, and programs 24 management branch is led by Meraj Rahimi as the branch 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
14 chief. Meraj came to DE last year in May on rotation 1
from NMSS, and we were fortunate to have him agree to 2
transfer permanently to this position. In the 3
reorganization, this branch was consolidated, and 4
given a new name to capture the broader nature of the 5
valuable broad, programmatic role they provide for DE, 6
Research, and the whole agency.
7 This branch supports the NRC mission by 8
providing timely, and effective management of the 9
development, and maintenance of reg guides, resolution 10 of generic technical issues, NRC staff's participation 11 in the development, and use of consensus standards, 12 and facilitating the future focus research program.
13 The reorganization had the biggest impact on the two 14 materials branches. The reactor engineering branch is 15 led by Raj Iyengar as the branch chief, who is very 16 familiar to the committee from many previous ACRS 17 meetings supported by this division.
18 This branch's principal role will be 19 fulfilling the core functions broadly associated with 20 high temperature materials, advanced sensors, and 21 digital twins, component performance software, and 22 ASME code case reg guides. The materials engineering 23 branch is led by Steve Ruffin as the branch chief, who 24 just recently joined the division to back fill for 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
15 Steve Frankel, who retired in May of this year. Steve 1
has an extensive materials background from working 2
previously as a branch chief for one of the materials 3
branches in NRR, and came to us from working as an 4
executive technical assistant in the EDO's office.
5 This branch's principal role will be 6
fulfilling the core functions broadly associated with 7
materials degradation, aging management, advanced 8
manufacturing, nondestructive examination, and end 9
service inspection. Both will continue to operate 10 collaboratively on issues crossing organizational 11 boundaries. Matrixing of projects between the 12 branches, and coordinating engagement with external 13 stakeholders will continue.
14 The instrumentation
- controls, and 15 electrical engineering branch is led by Chris Cook as 16 the branch chief. He joined the division in January 17 of this year after an extensive background as a branch 18 chief, most notably in the external hazards area, and 19 also most recently as an executive technical assistant 20 in the EDO's office. In addition, we'll hear from Ken 21 Miller who is the team leader in this branch for the 22 electrical engineering work.
23 This branch was not impacted by the 24 reorganization. It develops, and implements a broad 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
16 research program in the areas of both electrical 1
engineering, and instrumentation, and controls, but it 2
supports identification, and resolution of safety, and 3
security issues in an effective, and efficient manner.
4 The structural geotechnical, and seismic engineering 5
branch is led by Dogin Seber who, similar to Raj, is 6
very familiar to the committee from many previous ACRS 7
meetings supported by this division.
8 This branch also was not impacted by the 9
reorganization. It develops, and applies methods, 10 data, standards, guidance, and modeling tools to 11 assess the seismic hazard, and structural performance 12 of structures, systems, and components, and resolves 13 structural engineering issues associated with security 14 assessments. Slide four please. As Ray mentioned in 15 his opening remarks for the Division of Safety 16
- Analysis, we support the systematic approach 17 implemented by the Office of Research to prioritize 18 research emphasizing enterprise risk in the project 19 selection evaluation termination.
20 This slide provides a snapshot of the work 21 completed since we last met, and the initiation of the 22 future focused research projects thus far, and by that 23 I mean from 2019. Some of these will be specifically 24 mentioned in the individual branch presentations, but 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
17 most of what you'll hear about are current programs in 1
the future directions of the work in the branches. In 2
order to best support the needs of the program 3
offices, and the agency, we understand that we need to 4
wrap up various research projects to make room for the 5
emergent work in order to position the agency to be 6
ready for future regulatory decisions. Slide five 7
please.
8 In the letter from the ACRS on the 2019 9
program review for research, recommendations were made 10 regarding increasing the level of collaboration. On 11 this slide, and in the branch discussions today, we 12 want to provide additional insights on our 13 collaborations. We understand how important it is to 14 maintain external awareness in terms of state of the 15 art in emerging technical areas, we aim to be engaged 16 as best as we can.
17 The graphic on the slide represents many, 18 but not all of our important collaborations in our 19 divisions programs. We have engagements with a broad 20 range of domestic, and international groups, including 21 our regulatory counterparts. These partnerships 22 promote the exchange of information, establish 23 pathways for collaboration, and research activities, 24 and enhance the agency's technical, and regulatory 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
18 readiness, and capabilities.
1 And we're not just interacting with 2
stakeholders in the nuclear industry, but we also look 3
at other industries that have been utilizing 4
technologies for years, or decades that are now being 5
implemented in the nuclear field. That is the case 6
for areas such as Digital I&C, Advanced Manufacturing 7
Technologies, and Digital Twins. Where we have 8
limited resources, we are leveraging these 9
collaborations where we can to increase efficiency of 10 staff efforts, and use of resources. And now I'm 11 going to turn it over to Jeremy Bowen to provide a 12 programs overview for the Division Engineering, and 13 discuss future ACRS engagements.
14 MR. BOWEN: All right. So, good afternoon 15 everyone, my thanks as well for the opportunity to 16 come speak to you today. So, as Louise mentioned, DE 17 provides technical expertise, and research support for 18 a spectrum of engineering issues related to operating 19 reactors, new reactor design, and siting, and spent 20 fuel management. We maintain core agency expertise in 21 materials performance, electrical engineering, 22 issuance, computation, and controls, seismology, 23 geotechnical engineering, and structural engineering.
24 Essentially our staff's been many of the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
19 quote unquote traditional engineering fields. We also 1
provide support, and management for agency wide 2
programs related to regulatory guides, generic issues, 3
consensus goals, and standards, and to peer focused 4
research. Like Louise said, I'm going to provide an 5
overview of the scope of our programs, then touch on 6
a few specific areas of new, or emerging work to give 7
you a preview of some of the topics where we plan to 8
come back to the committee in the future, and provide 9
more dedicated briefings. So, slide seven please.
10 Louise just talked about the branch 11 functions, and I'm now going to try, and provide an 12 overview of each of the product areas. So, for 13 context, and reference the overall budget for the 14 combined engineering research products across all of 15 the business lines is over 23 million dollars in 16 fiscal year 2022. This equates to roughly 70 expert 17 staff overseeing approximately 17 million dollars in 18 contract activities.
19 This has been relatively stable for the 20 past years, and we do expect that to continue for the 21 foreseeable future, though obviously there will be 22 some areas that increase, while others decrease.
23 Approximately 85 percent of our work is in the 24 operating reactors business line. About eight percent 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
20 is associated with the advanced reactors, and another 1
six percent involves new reactor design work. About 2
one percent is dedicated to spent fuel storage, and 3
transportation.
4 The breakdown in the reactor area roughly 5
matches the breakdown of the agency's overall budget, 6
and although we currently have minimal resources 7
dedicated to spent fuel storage, and transportation at 8
this time, this is an area where we're exploring 9
potential growth. The current focus thus far has been 10 on aging of casks, but we're coordinating with our 11 partners to understand what areas we need to explore 12 next.
13 Before talking a little bit more about 14 each program, I would like to note that the graphic 15 you see here on the slide is only intended to provide 16 a high level representative breakdown of our work. We 17 all know the joys of budgeting are much more complex, 18 and this is just really one way of subdividing the 19 programs. So, moving --
20 MEMBER REMPE: Jeremy, this is Joy, can I 21 interrupt with a question?
22 MR. BOWEN: Sure.
23 MEMBER REMPE: Just to get me oriented, 24 should I assume that most of the advanced reactor work 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
21 is in the materials area if I look at this 49 percent?
1 I mean if we took off the advance money, would it be 2
the same distribution between materials, and external 3
hazards, and all this stuff?
4 MR. BOWEN: Yes. So, I think your first 5
statement was probably pretty accurate. Most of the 6
advanced reactor work falls in the materials 7
performance right now. There is a little bit that's 8
in the external hazards area, and the guidance, and 9
infrastructure. But for the most part it's in the 10 materials area right now, looking at stuff like 11 graphite, molten salt, things like that. Raj Iyenger 12 is actually going to go into that a little bit more.
13 MEMBER REMPE: Okay, thank you.
14 MR. BOWEN: Sure. So, like member Rempe 15 noted, the materials research does roughly account for 16 about half of our resources, and that's really why we 17 had two branches dedicated to managing the work in 18 that broad area. The program area for materials 19 encompasses component integrity analysis, corrosion, 20 metallurgy, nondestructive examination, modeling, and 21 simulation, mechanical systems, and digital twins.
22 So, the objective here is really to maintain, and 23 enhance our independent evaluation capabilities, 24 assess materials, and component degradation, and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
22 understand new kinds, or uses of materials.
1 In the instrumentation, and controls area, 2
we continue to support advances in the use of new 3
technologies on the safety side. We've also started 4
to build our capacity to support regulatory decisions 5
associated with cyber security, Louise mentioned this, 6
and Chris Cook will go into much more detail. This 7
has actually been an area of substantial growth for us 8
over the past year.
9 Similar to cyber security, we're starting 10 to explore work related to wireless technologies, both 11 the safety, and the security aspects, as there is 12 clear industry interest in the application. Though, 13 we're really just in the infancy here, and the first 14 step is trying to define, and understand the intended 15 use. In the structural, geotechnical, and external 16 hazards area, we support the periodic, and ongoing 17 seismic safety assessments that were formalized as 18 part of the post Fukushima lessons learned.
19 We're also enhancing the use of risk in 20 seismic, and structural evaluations, and we're focused 21 on enhancing our understanding of the impact of long 22 term operations on nuclear plant structures. Skipping 23 down a bit to the electrical area, here we're also 24 looking at the impacts of long term operation, and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
23 we're engaged in updates to industry guidance, and 1
condition monitoring. Then finally as I mentioned 2
earlier, DE provides an agency wide coordination, and 3
program management role for regulatory guides, generic 4
issues, consensus codes, and standards, and future 5
focused research.
6 Although it may seem like a bit of an odd 7
pairing to have this program management function with 8
the engineering group, we have found substantial 9
value, and synergy between the interaction of those 10 staff. We've made substantial strides in the past two 11 years to enhance processes, and build upon the 12 interdependence of all these programs with their 13 technical counterparts. Before moving on, I would be 14 remiss without elaborating a little bit more on future 15 focused research.
16 The unique aspect that I'd like to 17 emphasize here, is the fact that this is the sole 18 vehicle by which the office of research has dedicated 19 control over the assignment of resources. All other 20 research activities are based on the relatively near 21 term needs of the program offices, and the resources 22 are agreed upon through mutual discussions with those 23 partners. The future focused research program began 24 in fiscal year 2020, and we've already seen great 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
24 success coming out of that.
1 We suspect that there will be 2
opportunities for ACRS engagement on the technical 3
aspects of many of the future focused research 4
projects in the future. As you see we have a very 5
broad portfolio within DE, and we could easily spend 6
several hours discussing any one individual project.
7 So, it was very helpful to have a conversation 8
beforehand to get some insights from the committee on 9
specific areas of interest for you all. So, next 10 slide please. So to that point --
11 (Simultaneous speaking.)
12 CHAIR SUNSERI: Just one question, I 13 recently saw, I mean we've been following of course 14 the license stream renewal, and subsequent license 15 renewal, and I'm going to say something that probably 16 is not right, and so that's why I'm asking the 17 question. I recently saw where the agency has 18 discontinued looking at, I guess whatever the next 19 phase of license renewal beyond subsequent license 20 renewal would be, are you going to, somewhere in this 21 presentation talk about that? I didn't pick up on it 22 specifically, but there's a lot of information here, 23 I might have missed it.
24 MR. BOWEN: So, thanks for the question, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
25 that's actually an area, we don't have the specific 1
topic dedicated to that. There are a lot of things 2
that overlap between the subsequent license renewal 3
period if you will, the 40 to 60 year time frame, and 4
then the 60 to 80, and now there's some discussion 5
about life beyond 80. So, the sum of the questions 6
that are being talked about within research, and NRR 7
right now are trying to understand where there might 8
be, I'll say overlap between research that we've 9
already done, technical, or regulatory questions that 10 we've already answered to support subsequent license 11 renewal that might also be useful to understand what 12 would come next.
13 And then we're also trying to understand 14 where there might be other questions we need to ask.
15 So, there have been a couple public meetings, and 16 engagements to kind of gauge the interest by the 17 industry, and also to engage our external stakeholders 18 to see if there's any insight that folks may have on 19 what areas we might need to ask a little bit more, or 20 continue to explore. So, those questions are out 21 there, those discussions are ongoing. Like I said, we 22 don't have a specific dedicated topic within this 23 presentation, but certainly several of the specific 24 areas that you all asked about would absolutely have 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
26 an impact on subsequent life beyond 80, beyond the 1
subsequent license renewal period if you will.
2 CHAIR SUNSERI: Okay, that's helpful. So, 3
I think what I understood you to say is that there's 4
no comprehensive beyond 80 review, but I'll call it a 5
la carte, whatever it is cable aging management, 6
concrete whatever, specific focus areas that would 7
contribute to any studies for beyond 80 I guess.
8 MR. BOWEN: That's right, and it's kind of 9
starting that process to ask those questions.
10 CHAIR SUNSERI: Great, thank you. Because 11 what I was reacting to, is I saw the results of some 12 of those public meetings, and so that's what piqued my 13 interest, thank you.
14 MR. BOWEN: Sure. All right, if we're 15 ready to move on to slide eight? So, like I 16 mentioned, we could spend several hours on any one 17 topic, so when we were preparing for this, we arranged 18 the remainder for the presentations so that each one 19 of our branch chiefs will provide kind of a high level 20 overview of their branch functions, then they'll touch 21 on many of their major projects. Hopefully this will 22 give you an understanding of the activities that are 23 accomplished across the entire division.
24 We'll follow each of these discussions 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
27 with a bit more detail on the focus areas that were 1
identified by the committee, including a discussion of 2
major accomplishments since our last biennial review, 3
and then the branch chiefs will also touch on the 4
future planned direction of each of these projects.
5 We appreciate your questions, and insights as we move 6
throughout the presentation.
7 As we were preparing, we did recognize 8
that there would be value in having a more fulsome 9
discussion with the committee on several select 10 topics, some of which we actually had already 11 envisioned future interactions with you all, so we 12 planned to arrange dedicated meetings with the 13 committee on the topics that you see on this slide in 14 the future.
So, for advanced manufacturing 15 techniques, the regulatory question we're really 16 trying to figure out is what do we need to do to be 17 ready to assess the use of components installed in 18 nuclear facilities that were created using advanced 19 manufacturing techniques?
20 For harvesting, we're asking ourselves 21 what opportunities are available to learn from 22 components in the field, and how best to obtain the 23 valuable information from these materials. In digital 24 twins, we're asking how, and when we can be ready for 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
28 the use of digital twins in a regulatory application, 1
both for the current operating fleet, and for advanced 2
reactors. The risk informed performance based seismic 3
- activity, we're asking what's necessary, and 4
appropriate for this practical design of advanced 5
reactors.
6 MEMBER BLEY: Jeremy?
7 MR. BOWEN: Yes?
8 MEMBER BLEY: This is Dennis Bley. Do you 9
have specific goals, and ideas about how you might use 10 digital twins? Where does that stand?
11 MR. BOWEN: So, that is a great question, 12 and if I could ask you to hold off for just a couple 13 minutes, Raj Iyengar is going to go into a lot more 14 detail on digital twins.
15 MEMBER BLEY: Excellent.
16 MR. BOWEN: So, in fact I appreciate you 17 being the straight man, so even though we've been 18 making a lot of progress on these, and we plan to come 19 back to you, the way we're going to go through the 20 presentation, the branch chiefs are going to touch on 21 each of these in their remarks, cover each one of 22 these four areas in a little bit more detail, 23 hopefully give you some insight so that you'll know 24 what we're doing right now, but we're also asking for 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
29 any feedback, or any questions you have so that we can 1
prepare for our future engagements with you on each of 2
these four areas, and like I said, hopefully have a 3
more fulsome discussion at that time.
4 MEMBER BLEY: I bring that up because we 5
had very interesting engagement with one vendor who 6
was explaining how they're using digital twins to 7
tweak designs, and quickly check on deterministic, and 8
risk impacts of possible design changes. And it was 9
really pretty interesting, are you being able to 10 follow what vendors, and licensees might be doing in 11 this area?
12 MR. BOWEN: Yes. We've actually had some, 13 there was, I'm stealing Raj's thunder a little bit, 14 but we had a workshop back in December, and we had 15 several vendors, licensees, and quite honestly, when 16 we started this, the digital twins was one of the 17 first future focused research programs. When it was 18 initiated, it was kind of out there, I guess I'll say 19 it that way. There was a lot of questions about 20 really what is this going to look like, how is it 21 going to be applied? I think in many respects, we 22 were at the forefront, this is one of those situations 23 where the NRC was not waiting to see what would 24 happen.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
30 So, we were one of the first ones to kind 1
of engage in this, the workshop that we held back in 2
December was really the first kind of collective 3
interaction between vendors, licensees, regulators, 4
academia, to all talk about digital twins, and really 5
what it means for the nuclear industry. But since 6
that time there's been a tremendous amount of 7
interaction that's been done on that.
8 We have a report that we've received on 9
kind of the current state of the technology, we have 10 a couple other reports that are underway. So, I think 11 this is an area where, like I said, it's a whole lot 12 more to come, and a whole lot of questions out there, 13 but I think we're at the forefront to be able to be 14 ready for what comes next, so.
15 MEMBER BLEY: Okay, I appreciate that, and 16 I look forward to the talk. I admit, when I first saw 17 the topic, I thought it was kind of in the nonsense 18 area until I learned how some people are making really 19 good use of it.
20 MR. BOWEN: You are certainly not alone 21 Member Bley, I think that's the response we got from 22 a lot of people.
23 MEMBER REMPE: Jeremy, just so I know, on 24 the prior slide, you said we have one future focused 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
31 research project, which is becoming a great success, 1
is that the digital twin one that you're referring to, 2
or is there another one?
3 MR. BOWEN: No, there are many more, my 4
apologies if I misspoke there. So, we have 12 future 5
focused research projects that were funded between 6
fiscal year 20, and fiscal year 2021. Meraj Rahimi is 7
actually going to talk a little bit more about this, 8
and then the call for the fiscal year 22 projects is 9
actually getting ready to go out. So, no, each one of 10 the projects is very far underway, and every one of 11 them, they span a huge spectrum.
12 Personally, I'm very proud of digital 13 twins because it's within our division, but we do 14 have, I think there's three others that we have within 15 the division of engineering, we've got a lot of great 16 ideas that have come out of our staff, and like I 17 said, several ideas across all of the research staff.
18 So, it's definitely garnered a lot of interest. I 19 don't recall the exact number of submittals that there 20 were, but I want to say over the first two fiscal 21 years, it was something on the order of 50, or 60 22 ideas that were submitted, and I actually wish we 23 would have had an opportunity to fund more of them.
24 We've even requested for fiscal year 23, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
32 we've requested that the commission even double the 1
amount of money that we've had for the program. So, 2
it's an area where it's lots of great ideas, lots of 3
progress. The intent is really to kind of start an 4
idea with the program, and if there is value, then it 5
would transition into more of the, I'll call it the 6
traditional work process. So, user need requests, 7
research assistance requests, stuff like that.
8 MEMBER REMPE: So clearly, anyone that 9
transfers to a user need might be deemed as a success, 10 because it showed there was enough need there, it 11 ought to be continued. And I think that's great, I 12 also think that it's reasonable to assume that some 13 ideas are not going to pan out, but it would be good 14 to have several concrete projects that can easily be 15 demonstrated to be successful, so I'll be looking 16 forward to Raj talking about that a bit more.
17 I also like the idea, you're giving us a 18 head's up of what you think should be future topics 19 for a meeting. Do you have in your mind, what type of 20 schedule, are you planning to do all of these in the 21 next year, two years, or how soon are you planning to 22 go through these?
23 MR. BOWEN: So, good question. I think 24 overall, broad statement, I'd say all of these we're 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
33 looking within the next year. The branch chiefs, when 1
they talk about these topics, they're going to kind of 2
give you a little bit more insight, and the time 3
frame. Each one kind of depends on where we are in 4
process. Some of these we need the committee's 5
insight on specific guidance reporting out, for 6
example the risk informed performance based seismic 7
design.
8 That's certainly one where we're looking 9
for the committee's endorsement of planned guidance.
10 A couple of the others, digital twins, harvesting are 11 more informational briefings for the committee, and 12 it's really going to kind of be dependent on when we 13 think we've got the right level of information to 14 share with you all so that we can get some valuable 15 feedback, and recommendations. So, that's a long 16 winded way of roughly within the next year, but it 17 very much depends on the project.
18 MEMBER REMPE: So, again, this is good.
19 I've always been a little concerned that not having 20 some sort of concrete documentation, and just having 21 informal interactions, where every member states their 22 opinion may not be beneficial, but if we continue to 23 see a willingness to have these open exchanges, I 24 think it shows that the idea to switch to this type of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
34 interaction is a good idea. So, we'll be watching to 1
see how it goes, but this is encouraging.
2 MR. BOWEN: And thank you for that as 3
well, that comment actually helps us kind of think 4
about when might be the right time for example the 5
reports with the digital twins, there might be a way 6
we can have a document that we could get your 7
feedback, and insights on. So, and I would like to go 8
back for just a second on the future focused research 9
piece. Absolutely the ones that transition into user 10 need, RAR's, whatever, that's certainly a success. In 11 many respects, I think we also see a success in the 12 projects that we evaluate, and the end result is that 13 we don't need to do anything else.
14 That in itself is a learning experience, 15 and insightful for the agency, and helps us kind of 16 understand where we're at, and whether we need to move 17 forward. So, a different kind of success, but still 18 a success.
19 MEMBER REMPE: And I agree with you, but 20 how will this be documented? Do you have something 21 where you'll have like an annual, or semiannual report 22 on future focused research key findings, or how does 23 this get documented so those folks who are reviewing 24 what the agency does says okay, this is a good idea to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
35 have this program?
1 MR. BOWEN: So, each one of the individual 2
projects will have, they have a variety of reports.
3 Some of them have seminars associated with them, and 4
everything. Your point of rolling everything up, and 5
connecting each of the projects back to the future 6
focused research program, that's a good one. We just 7
sent up a note to the commission telling them about, 8
giving them an update on the status of the future 9
focused research program. I think we might explore 10 something like that in the future.
11 We haven't identified the specific 12 vehicle, but your point of connecting back the dots if 13 you will, is a good one, so thanks for that feedback.
14 MEMBER REMPE: Thank you.
15 CHAIR SUNSERI: This is Matt with one more 16 point on this future ACRS engagement, and I'm kind of 17 speaking from the chairman's role with this regard.
18 We appreciate the opportunity to engage you on these 19 topics, we always have to find that balance though, 20 between how much engagement we have early on so that 21 it doesn't create a conflict for us later when we go 22 into the evaluation stage, like we are right now. So, 23 I think you understand what I'm saying, it's just a 24 balancing act basically, that we don't find ourselves 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
36 in a position of evaluating things that we had 1
commented on, or had influenced the outcome of too 2
soon in the process. Thank you.
3 MR. BOWEN: Absolutely, and thanks for 4
that caution.
5 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Jeremy, this is Walt 6
Kirchner. I'm struck by the pictures here, especially 7
the lower left, and the upper right, to a lesser 8
extent the other two, but they probably also tie into 9
this. What I'm thinking about is the Internet of 10 Things. So, we're going to hear from your branch 11 chief on what you're doing in the area of the Internet 12 of Things, and cyber security?
13 MR. BOWEN: Yes, Chris Cook is going to 14 talk a little bit about cyber security, and work in 15 that area. And yes, for materials harvesting, we're 16 actually looking at components, not blue corn.
17 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Yeah, this is, that's a 18 John Deere rig, and it's probably being fed by GPS, 19 and other internet connections to decide a lot of 20 things about agriculture, of which I know nothing.
21 But I do know about Deere's use of advanced 22 technology, and the Internet of Things. Then of 23 course with digital twins, I wanted to ask, when you 24 had your workshop, and such, did you bring in vendors 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
37 from the non-nuclear area?
1 MR. BOWEN: Absolutely, sorry.
2 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Great, because that's 3
certainly an area that for over a decade now, a number 4
of vendors, the jet engine sector is a notable user of 5
digital twins, and the Internet of Things to collect 6
- data, and make decisions about preventative 7
maintenance, et cetera, et cetera. I assume from Raj, 8
we're hear more on that in his talk. Thank you.
9 MR. BOWEN: Raj could talk for hours just 10 on digital twins itself, and actually with that, I 11 think that actually concludes the setup I wanted to 12 provide, and unless there are any other questions, 13 I'll turn it over to Meraj Rahimi, and he can talk 14 about the cross cutting coordination program 15 management role that we play.
16 MR. RAHIMI: Good afternoon, my name is 17 Meraj Rahimi, I'm the chief of Regulatory Guide and 18 Program Management branch. Slide ten please. I just 19 want to give an overview of the four programs that my 20 branch manages first. So, the branch is supported by 21 11 full time staff, who manage a number of projects 22 within each of the four programs, and the four 23 programs are regulatory guides, generic issues, codes, 24 and standards, and future focused research.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
38 The overall goal of the branch is a 1
timely, and quality completion of all of the projects 2
within each of the four programs. The regulatory 3
guide program, which is the largest of the four 4
programs, in terms of staff support, includes managing 5
the reg guides development, managing the internal 6
review process, issuing the red guide comments, the 7
original topic comments, and the final verification 8
process.
9 The second program that my branch manages 10 is the generic issues program, which involves managing 11 the generic technical issues this position as mandated 12 by the Energy Reorganization Act of 1974 under 10 CFR 13 1.45. That's our program, the codes, and standards 14 program, which is to facilitate the NRC staff 15 participation in the development, and the use of the 16 codes, and standards. And the fourth program which 17 we've been talking about is the future focused 18 research program.
19 Which provides a vehicle to position the 20 NRC to be ready for future state of the art 21 technologies, and their potential regulatory impacts.
22 Those are the four functional areas, or four programs 23 that my branch manages. In the next few slides I'm 24 going to go into a little bit more detail about each 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
39 of these programs. Slide 11 please. First, the 1
regulatory guides program. So, we strive to provide 2
up to date guidance to licensees, and applicants for 3
more effective licensing reviews, and licensing 4
actions by the NRC. There are currently over 350 reg 5
guides in effect, which my branch maintains, with an 6
additional 35 in the process of being issued at this 7
time.
8 One of the main accomplishments, with 9
respect to managing the program, in the past year or 10 so, has been a significant improvement in the review 11 process, and violations of the reg guides. The 12 improvement has been made possible by working with 13 technical leads at the red guide development stage 14 establishing, and tracking the schedule for the entire 15 process. Early engagement with internal stakeholders 16 that are program offices, OGC, ACRS, and parallel 17 reviews in approval when possible.
18 As a result of this effort, we've been 19 able to issue the vast majority of the final reg 20 guides in the past year or so within six to 11 months.
21 In the past two
- years, in terms of other 22 accomplishments, the branch has issued 34 reg guides, 23 27 of which have been revision, and seven new guides, 24 and seven withdrawal. We have managed a periodic 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
40 review, and assessment on 24 existing reg guides, and 1
have managed 13 presentations to ACRS subcommittee, 2
and full committee.
3 As part of the continuous process of 4
future direction, is process improvement, to continue 5
the process improvement. So, as part of that effort, 6
the staff would like to increase its coordination with 7
ACRS, particularly at the draft stage of the reg 8
guides if we're issuing them for public comments, in 9
order to consider ACRS members viewpoints, and inputs 10 at an early stage, particularly in those areas which 11 are of high interest to the ACRS members. So, we 12 would welcome any suggestions from ACRS in this 13 regard.
14 Slide 12 please. Our next program, the 15 second program that we manage is the generic issues 16 program. The generic issues program identifies 17 generic technical issues which require NRC response.
18 And our accomplishment, since we met with ACRS as part 19 of the biannual review, we've closed three generic 20 issues, of course for conclusion from the implementing 21 program office. They are the first one, GI 191, 22 that's the containment sub 2B, and that was closed in 23 July 2019. GI 204, that was flood plain evaluation 24 from the post Fukushima lessons learned, and we closed 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
41 that generic issue in September, 2020.
1 And the third one, GI 199, seismic 2
reevaluation, which was closed in December 2020.
3 Other accomplishments included revising management 4
directive 6.4, and tech 002, which are the generic 5
issues program implementation documents. They were 6
revised based on a tighter team evaluation with 7
checking performance in 2013. And the recommendation 8
from the team was to simplify the program by reducing 9
the number of stages for generic issues process from 10 five, to three.
11 Increase management involvement, and 12 accountability, and new guidance to identify, and act 13 on immediate safety concerns, and to document the 14 justification for ongoing operations so that the issue 15 could be worked on without having to implement any 16 remedial actions during the time frame the issue is 17 being addressed. Currently as part of the future 18 direction, there's only one pre generic issue to 19 process, which is at the assessment phase, and that is 20 the high energy power controls involving the (Audio 21 interference.) But the division of risk analysis, our 22 sister division in the Office of Research will discuss 23 the technical status of this pre GI in its 24 presentation in their September 20th meeting with you.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
42 And generally, the number of proposed 1
generic issues that are being submitted to the program 2
has decreased. The other current work includes 3
updating NUREG-0933 to respect actions taken to 4
document the close out of those generic issues that I 5
talked about. Studies also evaluating further 6
streamlining the generic issue process, such as 7
reducing the screening phase period, which is 8
typically now, nine to 18 months, reducing the 9
assessment phase period, which is now typically one to 10 three years.
11 In addition to that step, it's also 12 revising 10 CFR 50 to reflect instruction to 13 applicants on which generic issues they must address 14 through their applications. Slide 13 please.
15 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Meraj? This is Walt 16 here.
17 MR. RAHIMI: Yes?
18 MEMBER KIRCHNER: How many generic issues 19 are still open?
20 MR. RAHIMI: None, zero, we've had only 21 one, as I mentioned it's at the pre GI stage.
22 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Right, okay, thank you.
23 MR. RAHIMI: Sure. Slide 13 please. Now 24 I'll talk a little bit more about the codes, and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
43 standards program. The goal of the codes, and 1
standards program is to enhance the effectiveness, and 2
efficiency of the regulatory process by leveraging 3
external resources, experience, and consensus. In the 4
past few years the staff has endorsed, through reg 5
guides, 19 codes, and standards from different 6
standard organizations such as American Concrete 7
Institute, ANS, ASME, IEEE, the Institute of Nuclear 8
Materials Management, and other standard 9
organizations.
10 There are currently 16 standards from 11 American Institute of Safe Construction, Health 12 Physics Society, IEEE, INMM that are in the process of 13 being endorsed right there. Now I'll talk about the 14 rules, and responsibility regarding the codes, and 15 standards within the agency. Our very own division 16 director, Ms. Louise Lund is the NRC standards 17 executive. She is responsible for the agency's 18 implementation of the National Technology Transfer, 19 and Advancement Act, and Office of Management and 20 Budget Circular A-119.
21 She chairs the NRC standards steering 22 committees, and represents the agency on the 23 interagency committee on standards policy. The 24 standards steering committee within NRC, which our 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
44
- own, with the division's senior management 1
participation, they prioritize the standards of 2
belated activities important to the NRC mission, 3
discuss, and coordinate the availability of resources 4
to support staff involvement as needed through the 5
NRC's development of new government unique standards.
6 The codes, and standards program manager, 7
who is in my branch, he provides the standards program 8
overall coordination in accordance with management 9
directive 6.5, and other guidance's issued by the NRC 10 standards executives. The standard development 11 organization coordinators, which are throughout the 12 NRC, the coordinators who are the NRC leads for 13 specific standard development organizations, their 14 roles are, they coordinate the participation of NRC 15 representatives for specific standard development 16 organization such as, as I mentioned, ASME, ANS, and 17 all the other organizations, and serve as the NRC 18 representatives in the standard boards such as ASME's 19 board on nuclear codes, and standards, and ANS 20 standards program.
21 Then the NRC representatives, the NRC 22 representatives, these are the NRC staff who 23 participate as authorized agency representatives on 24 one, or more standard development organization 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
45 committees. As SDO committee members, they promote 1
NRC positions in accordance with management directive 2
6.5, NRC standards, and circulating guidance. Slide 3
14 please.
4 MEMBER KIRCHNER:
- Meraj, sorry to 5
interrupt.
6 MR. RAHIMI: Sure, please.
7 MEMBER KIRCHNER: This is all very useful 8
because usually, I'll just make an observation, your 9
branch's talk is usually at the end of the engineering 10 presentations, and we've used up all of our time with 11 our questions, and we usually make short shrift of 12 this important activity. So, I wanted to ask what is 13 the formal mechanism that the NRC uses to endorse a 14 standard? We see them either in regulators, and, or 15 reg guides, but is there some other mechanism that is 16 used within the NRC to endorse a code, and standard, 17 and then where does one go to find the endorsed codes, 18 and standards?
19 MR. RAHIMI: Yeah, as you mentioned, those 20 are the really two main ways that we endorse codes, 21 and standards, through regulations, such as 5055A, and 22 the reg guides. Those are sort of the two vehicles by 23 which we endorse the reg guides, tend to be standards, 24 and codes. Does that answer your question?
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
46 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Yes. But say as we look 1
forward to, I'll make a rhetorical example, 10 CFR 53, 2
and we were interested to know, is there some place 3
we'd go to, where there's a compilation of the current 4
standards that are endorsed? Or is it just a search 5
on the NRC website?
6 MR. RAHIMI: Yes, actually we have 7
recently issued the reg guides, sort of endorsing in 8
support of CFR 53, and generally you will see that in 9
the reg guides, in there. But to answer your 10 questions, is there some place which, where there's a 11 compilation, it is throughout. Maybe one idea is for 12 us to identify in the title of the reg guides what it 13 applies to part 53 normally, at the beginning of every 14 red guide you will see the scope, okay, what 15 regulation does it apply? And it states there. In 16 most of them, we kind of include it in that title of 17 the red guide in terms of it applies to the advanced 18 reactors, high temperatures, reactors, it has a 19 summary, it would be at the very beginning of every 20 red guide.
21 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Okay. It was a learning 22 question, because with 10 CFR 53, approach as I 23 understand it, there's going to be extraordinarily 24 reliance on guidance, rather than codification in the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
47 actual rule, and that makes for a rather fluid 1
environment, but okay, that works for the time being, 2
thank you.
3 MR. RAHIMI: Thank you.
4 CHAIR SUNSERI: This is Matt, I have a 5
second question on that slide. Last time we visited 6
with you in this area, we were told about enhancements 7
to the codes, and standards process, and I see at the 8
top of this slide we have a statement, enhance the 9
effectiveness, and efficiency of the regulatory 10 process by leveraging external resources, et cetera.
11 So what is your metric for success in this? Are you 12 looking for less requests for additional information?
13 Would success look like a shorter cycle time for 14 review of licensed applications? I mean how do we 15 know that we have achieved this success in this topic?
16 MR. RAHIMI: I mean yes, generally, I 17 think that in general, reg guides, as I mentioned, the 18 whole goal of putting out the reg guides guidance 19 there, I mean again, is a way for the staff to provide 20 guidance to the applicants, and licensees in terms 21 that they can put a better application together, and 22 it would be a more efficient review. Efficient review 23 meaning yes, less RAI's, because there is sort of a 24 guidance in terms of implementation of the regulation.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
48 And of course the standards, and codes, they are the 1
really big, significant contribution to this.
2 Because from the technical point of view, 3
it involves really the expert's opinions, just not the 4
staff technical opinion. It is the consensus of the 5
experts, the outside experts that have come up with 6
the recommendation, I mean these are the criteria. So 7
yeah, certainly in terms of the application, reviewing 8
makes it efficient, and the metric with respect to 9
that, yes, in terms of the number of RAI's that are 10 issued. If there is enough guidance there, there is 11 a code, standards that the staff can point to, and so 12 the applicant, licensee says hey, as long as you use 13 these codes, standards, you won't expect that many 14 questions from us.
15 That is indeed sort of the metric in terms 16 of how long does the review take, and how many rounds 17 of RAI's are issued, it comes back, is there a good 18 guidance out there for the applicant, or licensee to 19 use to put together a good application.
20 CHAIR SUNSERI: Okay, good, I see Louise 21 has her hand up, Louise?
22 MS. LUND: If you don't mind, I just 23 wanted to make a comment as the agency standards 24 executive. That's a very good question asked to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
49 really what are the measures, and metrics, and what 1
are we striving for? And one of the things that 2
industry is most interested in is figuring out how to 3
get us to prioritize, and endorse things in a timely 4
way. And I'll point to the non-light water reactor 5
PRA standard, and really ones like that, where we 6
recognize industry really wants to get some of these 7
out on the street, and how do we, like Meraj is 8
saying, do things in parallel, and being able to get 9
working copies, a trial standard out, doing various 10 things to be responsive to where we see the needs.
11 Also through our standards forum that we 12 try to hold every year, we've had some discussions 13 too, about for advanced reactors in the vendors, in 14 understanding what their priorities
- are, and 15 especially because in those areas do we need more 16 technical basis developed, what do we really need to 17 do? So, I would say our metrics, and measures are 18 being able to play the role that we need to play in 19 order to get things endorsed in a timely way to meet 20 the expectations, and needs of the regulated 21 community.
22 And another way that we do this is through 23 our meetings, and through, with ASME, IEEE, some of 24 the other committees, and they prioritize on an 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
50 ongoing, dynamic basis for us, really what their 1
priorities are, and what they want us to have in the 2
- queue, because they understand we don't have 3
inexhaustible resources to work on everything at the 4
same time, so there is a dynamic sort of nature to us 5
trying to be as effective, and efficient in this area 6
as possible.
7 And that comes down to also the people 8
that are on the committees, is trying to be responsive 9
to requests to new committees, and requests where 10 maybe there is not as much work in a certain area now, 11 and maybe it frees up some resources to be able to 12 work in other committees as well, because again, this 13 is an area where we spend a lot of resources, and 14 time, is on code committees, endorsements in this, and 15 so we have to figure out how to use all of our 16 resources in the most effective way possible. So, I 17 hope that's what you were looking for in type of 18 question you were asking.
19 CHAIR SUNSERI: Well, I think it does.
20 So, let me just see if I can give you a short summary 21 here. So, I hear two things Louise, one is that if 22 applicants use the consensus standards, and the codes 23 that have been developed in their applications, they 24 are likely to get less RAI's, and the process is 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
51 likely to move along in a more timely manner. The 1
challenge on your side is endorsing the codes, and 2
standards, or getting the consensus standards issues 3
in the right priorities that the industry needs to 4
support the, I'll call it the rate, and the type of 5
applications that they expect to be submitting, did I 6
get that close?
7 MS. LUND: Yes, and for the advanced non-8 light water reactors, having things sufficiently 9
mature that it's worth putting a lot of time into 10 getting a standard put together. So, there's just a 11 lot of moving parts here.
12 MEMBER BALLINGER: This is Ron Ballinger, 13 I feel compelled to take up Pete Riccardella's cudgel 14 on standards. And I wonder whether or not 15 consideration has been given to somehow try to move 16 forward a little bit more quickly. On some of these 17 standards it's taking years to get approval, or get 18 what do you want to call it, I guess approval is the 19 best word to use, or adopting of standards before 20 people retire. It just takes forever, I mean you know 21 that, and it's not necessarily always the agency's 22 fault, the ASME is not what I would call blitzkrieg, 23 but you wonder whether or not the agency couldn't do 24 something that once a standard is in place from the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
52 ASEM, or the ASME, whether the concurrence process, if 1
that's what you want to use the word for, cannot be 2
accelerated in some way.
3 MS. LUND: Right. We have looked at 4
various improvements internally to the way we endorse 5
standards. We were also looking at how to expedite 6
getting either the code cases that we can approve 7
without conditions, how to get them on the street 8
sooner, and we have a proposal for that that we've 9
been working through the system, we've had some public 10 meetings on that. There's a number of areas where 11 yes, there do need to be ways to be doing things more 12 timely. I know section three, and section 11 have 13 some initiatives as well.
14 And there's also room for really cross 15 standards development organization coordination as 16 well, and I have to give kudos to the ANS chair Don 17 Eggit for trying to reach out, and trying to do some 18 coordination there, and also trying to look fora 19 redundancy to reduce overlap redundancy, conflict in 20 standards, and things. So, there's a number of 21 efforts sort of ongoing, because I think everybody 22 agrees that standards development takes too long.
23 MEMBER BALLINGER: Yeah, I mean to the 24 agency's credit, you have several employees that are 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
53 also members of the various committees, and you might 1
wonder if there's a way to improve, or take advantage, 2
let's put it that way, of that membership in helping 3
get the review process going within the agency once 4
the time comes.
5 MS. LUND: Right, and I think that 6
certainly there is, I think efforts to try to ensure 7
that the people who are sitting on the committees are 8
the people putting the eyes on when these, the code 9
cases, and the codes come in for endorsement as well, 10 and premised it through all the different wickets that 11 it has to get through, and that's -- so we threw our 12 entity embark over in NRR, there was an effort to try 13 to look at different ways that this process really 14 could be expedited, and various ways that it could be 15 improved.
16 So, we're in the process of really asking 17 for permission to do various things that really were 18 proposed. We had a couple of public meetings to lay 19 some of these ideas out there, and see which ones 20 resonate the most with the folks in the standards 21 organizations, and also the other interested public as 22 well.
23 MEMBER BALLINGER: One last question, has 24 there been a thought to, maybe you've already done it, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
54 to ask the industry folks to prioritize code case 1
review, things that are the most important for them?
2 MS. LUND: Right, we do, because we have 3
actually twice a year management meetings with ASME, 4
and part of that is also looking at priorities in 5
which things have been requested for certain time 6
frames. And if you look at some of the letters coming 7
in from ASME, IEEE, also ANS, they'll actually 8
prioritize, and mention certain ones that they really 9
would like to get done, and which time frames that 10 they'd like to get it done in.
11 And sometimes you'll get something that 12 will rise to the top of the list unexpectedly, because 13 it is important maybe for outages coming up, or 14 something else. So, and we try to be responsive, and 15 also have some discussions in short, try to figure out 16 how best to work that into our work load as well, or 17 if we can't, we try to have engagement as to what's, 18 the difficulties in doing that. So yeah, we are doing 19 that.
20 MEMBER BALLINGER: I for one would be 21 interested in the priorities that you have.
22 MS. LUND: If you look at some, in fact I 23 can provide some of those, letters to the committee so 24 that you can look at some of that correspondence back 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
55 and forth, and maybe, hopefully that'll be responsive 1
to really what the comments that you're making, and if 2
you have additional feedback, or ideas we're certainly 3
interested in hearing that too.
4 MEMBER BALLINGER: Thank you.
5 CHAIR SUNSERI: If you could provide that 6
Hossein, he'll get it distributed to us, and Vicki 7
Bier has her hand up. Vicki?
8 MEMBER BIER: Yeah, thank you. I want to 9
come back to something that was discussed very early 10 in the presentation, and let me know if there's a 11 better time to address this later on, which is the 12 issue of staffing, and are you able to hire top 13 quality people in the areas that are needed? And I'm 14 especially concerned about that in the cyber area. I 15 know at universities we have a very hard time hiring 16 good computer scientists, because it's difficult to 17 pay them remotely close to what the top people can 18 make in industry.
19 And also there's kind of a career path 20 issue, which is if I stay in Silicon Valley, then I 21 have a lot of different jobs I can go to a few years 22 from now if I decide I want to change, or whatever.
23 And taking people out of that Silicon Valley ecosystem 24 can be difficult unless they have a particular reason 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
56 why they want to be in a certain geographic area. So, 1
I just thought I would ask on the cyber side in 2
particular, are there hiring challenges, how are you 3
meeting them? And does the agency need to be creative 4
about things that make this worthwhile for people, or 5
attractive for people?
6 MS. LUND: Yes. I would say that for some 7
of the skill sets it is more challenging to do hiring.
8 We have been successful in doing some limited hiring 9
up to this point. The thing is we're still in a 10 developmental phase, and really just starting to get 11 involved in our cyber security work. So, we've done 12 some limited hiring, and we've been successful in 13 doing that, but I do recognize all of the challenges 14 that you just mentioned.
15 And one of the things too, is our interest 16 also in engaging with some of the national labs, and 17 getting training for some of our existing staff that 18 work in that area, and so it's a multi-pronged 19 approach, it's not only doing selected, targeted 20 hiring, but it's also for the staff that we do have, 21 that have been working in that area, making sure their 22 skill sets are timely, and kept up to date, and it's, 23 so yes, we do for some of the skill set areas we have, 24 that's a constant challenge, and we try to think of an 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
57 all of the above approach of how to really meet that, 1
so thank you for that.
2 MEMBER BIER: Sure, and also just 3
encouraging that there may be creative strategies 4
whether it's creating a
prestigious one year 5
fellowship that, when somebody would come for a year, 6
and promise that it would be kind of a high impact 7
position, or solving part of the problem through 8
contracting, and consulting, or have a little field 9
office in Silicon Valley. I mean there's, I don't 10 know that I have any answers, but just the problem is 11 out there, and how do we make sure we have the top 12 notch people also.
13 MS. LUND: Yeah, and I think what I'm 14 going to also do is ask for Chris Cook, if you can 15 talk a little bit, when you get to your turn to talk 16 about your branch, since the cyber security thing has 17 been brought up a couple of times, maybe you can talk 18 about the staffing issue, because it falls directly in 19 your branch, and he's done a lot in that area.
20 MR. COOK: Sure, I'd be happy to.
21 CHAIR SUNSERI: Okay, we'll take one more 22 topic on this conversation, and then we'll move on.
23 Joy has her hand up.
24 MEMBER REMPE: Yeah, I was going to wait 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
58 until the end, but since we've derailed from Meraj on 1
this, he made a suggestion when he talked about the 2
reg guides, and a way to improve the process, which I 3
think is good, this interaction, we should listen to 4
the staff if they have some suggestions, to also help 5
them with respect to ACRS, but he wanted earlier 6
engagement, and I think of how ACRS does the decision 7
process on whether we're going to review a reg guide 8
before it comes out for public comment, or after the 9
comments are resolved.
10 And I know the staff usually talks to the 11 cognizant ACRS member, but other than telling the ACRS 12 staff person, hey this one we think is important, are 13 there any ways we can make sure that your needs are 14 addressed better on that suggestion Meraj?
15 MR. RAHIMI: Yeah. This is the area that 16 I really wanted to focus on, because we really value 17 ACRS input, and we would like to get their input at 18 early stage if possible. I mean even as part of a 19 discussion, information meeting, we can sort of brief 20 you, what are the upcoming reg guides in digital I&C, 21 a different area. That way it can get more 22 information, and we can kind of make a decision, and 23 if you have a really strong, high interest in an area, 24 that we can come to you before we issue it for public 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
59 comment in order, really to consider your input, as 1
opposed to in some cases we're at the final stage.
2 So, in terms of, because we're striving to 3
put these reg guides really in a timely manner, that 4
way, that's what the licensees, and applicants need.
5 Putting out, and stamping out guidance in a timely 6
manner that can help their application.
7 MEMBER REMPE: There's two ways I know you 8
can make sure your voice is heard. It doesn't 9
guarantee what ACRS will do, because no one can 10 guarantee what we'll do, but you can have, and request 11 informal meetings with the cognizant staff member with 12 this list of reg guides, and point that out, but then 13 it comes to the full committee at P&P, and so make 14 sure you know when that reg guide is being discussed.
15 Because if you don't agree with what the cognizant 16 staff member decides, or recommends, you can stand up, 17 and say I'd like to provide comments at this meeting 18 so that at least the whole committee hears your voice.
19 And I don't usually see the staff come to 20 us about a reg guide discussion, but it's something 21 that's out there in advance, and you're more than 22 entitled to the information to know when it will be 23 discussed to make sure your voice is heard. Will that 24 help you?
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
60 MR. RAHIMI: Yes, yes. Again, we would 1
like, because as I said, there are over 350 reg guides 2
my branch managers, and in a given year I've got 30, 3
40 reg guides going through process, and reissue. And 4
particularly I'm interested that the ones that we 5
really need to get sort of your input, or your 6
feedback, I'd like to get it at early stage, and 7
however we can do it, and provide you more 8
information, I mean that was one of the improvements 9
to the process that we did.
10 As soon as we get this sort of, let me 11 grab from the program office, the technical leads, we 12 sort of interact with ACR staff, and let them know, 13 and they do a great job in terms of really 14 communicating with ACRS members, and it is at that 15 point, even we can kind of share that draft guide to 16 preview, to get an idea okay, this is definitely an 17 area, or a topic that we might have a high interest 18 in, to better kind of hear about it, see what the 19 staff has put together before we put it out for public 20 comments, that's all.
21 MEMBER REMPE: Again, I think that we try 22 to make sure that the cognizant staff member hears 23 about that in advance, and you can have informal 24 meetings, but if you disagree with what the cognizant 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
61 staff member says, come to the meeting, and make sure 1
your voice is heard at the meeting, and of course then 2
we can't review everything before public comment, 3
because our time is also limited, but we can at least 4
be cognizant of why you think it's important. So 5
again, I think this is a good exchange to try, and 6
make things more efficient for the agency, and not 7
just us giving your comments. So, all of the research 8
folks should feel free to also make suggestions to 9
improve our processes too.
10 CHAIR SUNSERI: All right, thank you. We 11 need to move along here, anything else on that topic?
12 So, there's one more slide in this presentation on 13 future focus, what I'd like to do is get through this 14 presentation, and the next one by the next branch, and 15 then we'll take a break after that. We need to move 16 along though, we're falling behind. Go ahead.
17 MR. RAHIMI: We're on slide 14, and the 18 fourth program my branch manages is the future focused 19 research, which I guess Jeremy talked about. The goal 20 of the future focused research program is to provide 21 actionable insights into technical, or regulatory 22 issues that relate to the NRC's mission to open new 23 areas of foundational knowledge on key regulatory 24 topics. As Jeremy mentioned, really this is the only 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
62 program that the Office of Research kind of managers, 1
is our program. And we're really looking to the 2
horizon in the future.
3 Okay, what do we need to really do 4
research to make sure that the agency is ready for 5
future regulatory action? That's the goal, really.
6 So, this program was, this program started in 2020, 7
and since then 12 different research projects have 8
been launched since then. And of course, I guess one 9
of the success stories, the digital twins so far, and 10 they range from digital twins, to automation tool 11 mapping, to drones, and virtual reality tools, to 12 analyze radiological surveys, and looking at the high 13 entropy alloys.
14 So they're really varied, and kind of 15 forward looking research projects. And Member Rempe, 16 I think we have a backup slide which lists all these 17 research projects which is currently under the way.
18 So, it is included in the presentation, but I'm not 19 going to go over one by one, but is included in the 20 presentation, and you can look at them. With respect 21 to the future direction, what is the vision? What is 22 the research program?
23 So, Office of Research envisions a time 24 when the future focused research program is 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
63 acknowledged as a sustained research, and development 1
program viewed by program offices as a valuable asset 2
to improve foundational knowledge on key topics. And 3
at the same time, one that encourages potential 4
riskier, non-agenda related extension of projects with 5
more linkage to future regulatory topics. It is 6
anticipated there will be numerous results from the 7
individual research projects such as draft, and final 8
reports, in the queries of training sessions, various 9
software updates, guidance on the use of new 10 technologies, and suggestion for additional research 11 phases.
12 These all will eventually cause the future 13 focused research program to be relied upon as the 14 repository for some of the latest information directly 15 related to the NRC mission. It is important that 16 future focused research program records become a key 17 source for potential staff researchers to consider as 18 they prepare their new future focused research 19 proposals. And as I think it was alluded to, that 20 there is going to be, really to build the repository 21 for the latest information, and we have requested to 22 double the budget for this program by 2023. And with 23 that, I turn it over to Raj Iyengar to talk about his 24 programs, and projects in his branch.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
64 MR. IYENGAR: Good afternoon esteemed 1
members of the committee. I am Raj Iyengar, chief of 2
Reactor Engineering Branch. I feel honored, always to 3
appear before you, to present updates on our important 4
research activities, today is no exception. In the 5
next few minutes I expect to present a succinct 6
overview of the newly formed Reactor Engineering 7
Branch. Our branch has 14 staff, and an annual budget 8
of 5 million dollars in support of HC's safety, and 9
security research program on high temperature 10 materials, component performance, mechanical systems, 11 and advanced nuclear technologies for operating new, 12 and advanced reactors, and spent fuel storage, and 13 transportation.
14 Next slide please. Our branch staff plan, 15 and execute analytic research programs to develop 16 technical basis methods, and tools for advanced 17 technology applications with a focus on risk, and 18 safety of operating advanced reactors, and other 19 facilities. There are four broad functional areas our 20 branch is involved in. We support the readiness to 21 review advanced non-light water reactor designs 22 related to high temperature materials, component 23 performance, molten salt fuel
- cycle, material 24 safeguards, physical security, and consensus standards 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
65 improvements from both technology inclusive, and 1
design specific considerations.
2 One of the areas of strengths is modeling, 3
and simulation of component performance, considering 4
materials degradation, and environmental effects, and 5
applying fracture, and damage mechanics. We have 6
developed, and applied probabilistic based, as well as 7
deterministic based tools for improved risk informed 8
decision making on component safety issues. We are 9
building expertise, and capabilities in modeling, and 10 simulation of environmental effects related to molten 11 salt compatibility, salt chemistry, and high 12 temperature degradation of materials for advanced non-13 light water reactors.
14 In light of the interest in application of 15 artificial intelligence, and machine learning, we are 16 engaged in learning first, and applying data driven 17 approaches to monitoring, and predicting component 18 performance, an emerging functional area for our 19
- branch, which is a
direct outcome of the 20 reorganization, as well as the success of future 21 focused research program. The application of advanced 22 nuclear technologies influencing safety, and risk of 23 plant design operations, maintenance, and waste 24 management.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
66 We are particularly interested in the 1
application of digital twins, and advanced census. I 2
will talk more about these later. Our branch staff 3
provides significant support to our customers on 4
licensing, and regulatory activities. I'll provide 5
more context in a few minutes. Next slide please.
6 This slide gives you a snap shot of major projects in 7
the functional areas I've described earlier. Time 8
will not allow me to discuss this project in any 9
length of detail, however I will briefly touch upon a 10 few of them.
11 We made significant progress in 12 accelerated readiness to review advanced reactors in 13 areas of materials, and component performance.
14 Members heard a briefing this week on staff's effort 15 to potentially endorse ASME section three, division 16 five, this was indeed a monumental effort. In 17 addition our staff, and NRR staff have completed a 18 draft regulatory guide to potentially endorse American 19 Society of Mechanical Engineer's section 11, 20 reliability, and integrity management, this is 21 division two. Which will enable vendors that will 22 depend on in service inspection, and monitoring 23 programs for operational safety of advanced non-light 24 water reactor designs.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
67 Recently we have developed a great 1
critique assessment tool for verifying application of 2
ASME section three, division five rules for metallic 3
components. This tool is publicly available, and 4
we're using this tool to demonstrate methods of 5
evaluating non code qualified materials for a reduced 6
operational time of components within code standards 7
should there be any interest from potential licensees.
8 We have benefitted from the information 9
that we obtained from Japan Atomic Energy Agency on 10 high temperature materials, operational experience 11 with sodium fast reactors, and surveillance programs.
12 I'll provide more details on our efforts on molten 13 salt reactors later. Our research project in graphite 14 aims at developing a probabilistic based tool to 15 assess the aging, and degradation of graphitic 16 components. We have partnered with Idaho National Lab 17 to develop this tool, and also some training programs 18 to enhance staff knowledge, and skills in assessing 19 graphitic components.
20 We have completed a report on source 21 dependency of graphite, I want to also acknowledge 22 here our colleagues in the Office of Nuclear 23 Regulation in the United Kingdom, who have been 24 extremely forthcoming in sharing their research, data, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
68 and operational experience on graphitic components.
1 In the modeling, and simulation area we've completed 2
the development of, and release of the extremely low 3
probability of rupture code XLPR, a joint project with 4
Electric Power Research Institute. Members already 5
are aware of this, we've had multiple briefings on 6
this topic.
7 After the recent enhancement of 8
probabilistic code favor for reactor pressure 9
integrity, we are engaged in modernizing the legacy 10 code into a
modern software tool including 11 modernization of code structure, and source code, and 12 meeting up to the current software quality assurance 13 standards. We have initiated a project on developing 14 guidelines for alternative framework, and acceptance 15 criteria postulating pipe rupture locations in fluid 16 system piping for small volume, and current light 17 water reactors to incorporate risk in size. The 18 outcome of this work will result in a properly 19 division of branch technical position 3-4 providing 20 increased flexibility, and burden reduction for 21 licensees.
22 I'm glad to say that we have initiated a 23 program on risk assessment of canister performance.
24 I think this will be of interest to Member Ballinger.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
69 To better understand the risk of consequence of 1
canister breach. This work will support licensing 2
oversight of aging management programs for chloride 3
induced corrosion cracking, and the developing risk 4
informed inspection frequencies.
5 (Simultaneous speaking.)
6 MEMBER BALLINGER: My hope is the results 7
of this project will be in place before I die.
8 MR. IYENGAR: Well, we have a very quick 9
time line, I am sure you'll be pleased. We are 10 partnering with the Sandia National Lab experts in 11 getting some data. Data has always been the road 12 block in developing rigorous risk, and consequence 13 based approach. So, I think we made some headway here 14 Member Ballinger, thank you for prodding us. I'll 15 touch upon digital twins, and advanced assets later, 16 but I wanted to highlight a small future focused 17 research project we recently initiated to develop rest 18 spots for use in knowledge mining, optimization of 19 modeling, and simulation to incorporate data, and 20 model uncertainties, and accelerate the review process 21 of technical letter reports.
22 Several of our staff represent agency in 23 the ASME boiler pressure code, and standards working 24 groups for ASME section three, and section 11. We're 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
70 also interfacing with the ASME O&M Committee, 1
Operation and Maintenance Committee on the application 2
of digital twins for some other work that they're 3
doing for advanced reactor component ecosystems. Our 4
branch serves as a technical lead for the 10 CFR 50 5
54A regulatory guide code case rule making. I know 6
there was some comments about how can we speed up?
7 This is one way we can speed up the 8
acceptance of code cases, rather than wait for the 9
code editions. Our staff is often called in to 10 support complimentary analysis for colleagues in NRR, 11 and NMSS on licensing actions. Next slide please.
12 Our staff has developed a strong research program, and 13 collaborations to better understand the performance 14 characteristics, and associate implications on 15 component performance for molten salt reactors. Over 16 the last two years we published ten technical letter 17 reports on technical issues, and caps for molten salt 18 reactors, molten salt compatibility of components, 19 environmental considerations, and graphite.
20 We've conducted a highly successful, and 21 well attended international workshop in advanced non-22 light water reactor materials, and component integrity 23 in December of 2019.
The discussions, and 24 presentation led to the awareness of research 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
71 activities underway to address these challenges. I'll 1
touch upon some of the ongoing, and future direction 2
activities. One is on molten salt chemistry. We have 3
ongoing efforts to assess the effects of salt purity, 4
irradiation, corrosion, and fission product chemistry 5
on fuel salt performance, and thermal physical 6
properties of the fuel. We -- yes.
7 (Simultaneous speaking.)
8 MEMBER DAVID PETTI: I have a question on 9
that. The problem with molten salt is there's not one 10 molten salt, there's many, how big is the scope in 11 terms of the number of salt that you're considering?
12 MR. IYENGAR: Well, we are, one of the 13 better known ones is the lithium fluoride salt, which 14 is the catalyst we'll be using. But also this is more 15 recent, which is actually more important, we have much 16 more knowledge gap is on the chloride salt. So, we 17 are looking at the effects of chloride salt, but as 18 you know, there's not much information data out there, 19 and hopefully with the new programs the DOE is putting 20 through, and that (Audio interference.) and others are 21 doing, we'll learn more about the chloride salt. We 22 will be addressing those in terms of what are the 23 technical gaps, and what are the regulatory issues?
24 We are not developing data, we are looking 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
72 at seeing what are the methods, best practices that 1
can be followed to address some of the component 2
performance issues.
3 MEMBER REMPE: So, just to be clear, 4
you're not doing any of the actual testing, you're not 5
funding the testing itself, you're funding design 6
developers they will have to have this data for 7
whatever, is that true?
8 MR. IYENGAR: Yes. So, to the extent we 9
are trying to first do the assessment of the gaps, and 10 technical issues, and we are actually working with Oak 11 Ridge National Lab, as well as Idaho National Lab, a 12 number of these projects. So, our focus here is not 13 to say let's go develop data, which is, our resources 14 wouldn't be able to support that, our charter wouldn't 15 be supporting that. But we, on the other hand, we 16 will be cognizant of how can we develop appropriate 17
- criteria, or how should the vendors develop 18 appropriate criteria, for example if you take molten 19 salt compatibility, or environment degradation, 20 because that's a very tall issue.
21 So, we would look at others, and best 22 practices that could be followed, and we do a very 23 limited amount of experiments, very limited to see 24 what the effects of impurities would be, those kinds 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
73 of tests we would do. We are not doing elaborate 1
testing, and data development if that's what you are 2
asking us. Did I answer your question Member Rempe?
3 MEMBER REMPE: Yes, I just wanted to make 4
sure that, because as Dave said, there's a lot of 5
different ones out there, and I think that the staff 6
has to be judicious in pushing that effort off to the 7
design developers.
8 MR. IYENGAR: Exactly, I totally agree.
9 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Raj, this is Walt 10 Kirchner, I had the same question in mind as David 11 had. Is your focus on impurities in the salt, fluids 12 that are being proposed, or is your focus more on the 13 interaction, the chemistry, the interaction with say 14 graphite, and, or structural materials, or is it all 15 of the above?
16 MR. IYENGAR: It's all of the above, 17 because impurities have a
profound effect on 18 compatibility. It has an effect on redox control, 19 which how can you control the redox potential so that 20 you will actually have less corrosion, or less 21 environment degradation? We are looking into that, 22 there's some advanced sensor applications for that.
23 We are looking into electrochemical chemistry. We 24 have a very knowledgeable staff in our team. Dr.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
74 Wendy Leed, who is looking into those things, and 1
there are a number of things that we're addressing, 2
and we're doing our judicious, and independent 3
assessment of the data availability.
4 We are also collaborating, quite 5
interestingly in this topic, there's so much research 6
work that has been done in Czechoslovakia, the Res, it 7
was a research center, that Res, for over the past ten 8
years. I actually discovered that when we went on a 9
meeting to Paris a year and a half ago. So, since 10 then we have actually engaged them, and we've gotten 11 a lot more information, and they're doing a lot of 12 data. So, in other words we are leveraging the data 13 out there, even though we may not be able to do the 14 data development, we are looking at what is available 15 out there, and what can help us develop appropriate 16 guidance.
17 MEMBER DAVID PETTI: This is David, I 18 think you understand the landscape pretty well. I 19 would just say that the Canadians are also one to 20 watch in terms of data, although they're more looking 21 on fission product stuff, but they're going to be a 22 source, and the other thing is fluoride salts have 23 been in neutron environments, there's lots of data.
24 Chloride salts, it's almost the exact opposite, and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
75 there are some real fundamental questions about do you 1
get recombination, do you get a lot of radicals 2
hanging around? Because that changes chemistry. It's 3
like night, and day when you talk about those two 4
systems, and I think you agree based on what you said.
5 MR. IYENGAR: Yes, absolutely, we actually 6
pointed that out -- sorry -- we pointed that out in 7
our first report on MSR technical issues, and gaps we 8
did at the Oak Ridge National Lab, about two and a 9
half years ago we issued that. Yes, you're right, 10 absolutely, and we're doing some follow up work with 11 Oak Ridge on that.
12 MEMBER DAVID PETTI: Good, thanks.
13 MR. IYENGAR: I did mention something 14 about electrochemical separation, so we're also 15 looking into that aspect, because there's some 16 interest in that. The next area of focus within this 17 broad area is reliability, and risk reduction.
18 Following a potential endorsement of ASME section 19 three division two, reliability, and integrity 20 management, we are planning to initiate a program to 21 better understand, and develop technical basis for the 22 use of reliability indices, or indexes for components 23 for way of use designs based on environmental, and 24 aging considerations.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
76 As you know that the reliability, and 1
integrity management code is a process, that's what we 2
are potentially endorsing, but there's lots of fill in 3
the blanks there in terms of how you develop that, how 4
you would apply, and that's something we are already 5
looking into it. And somebody mentioned about how 6
agile, or how fast we are in terms of code 7
endorsement, and I must tell you that this is a prime 8
example of that. Even though the division two is on 9
end service inspection only after the reactor starts 10 operation, we actually started to send the endorsement 11 so many years ahead of that.
12 In order to better understand the risk, 13 and safety, and to develop risk, and form performance 14 based methodologies, we are engaged in the evaluation 15 of the application of advanced sensors for use in 16 tritium controlled redox chemistry control, as I 17 mentioned, off gas control, as well as structural 18 health monitoring. This is an area that I think is, 19 offers significant -- yes Dr. Ballinger.
20 MEMBER BALLINGER: Now is there -- excuse 21 me, there's a train coming by my house -- is there a 22 user need for the division two work?
23 MR. IYENGAR: So, we are doing that as 24 part of the advanced non-light water, advanced reactor 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
77 work under the so called 1A funds. But we are 1
actually now in the process of developing user need 2
for the stuff that I'm mentioning to you on both the 3
development, and use of reliability in this case.
4 MEMBER BALLINGER: Okay, it'd be nice for 5
us to get a copy of that once it's available, because 6
the user need on the 1937, or the canister stuff is 7
very informative.
8 MR. IYENGAR: Okay, thank you. Is there 9
any other questions? Okay. So, I'll move on to the 10 last area of emphasis here, is also very new, and it's 11 actually proactive I think. Our staff is engaged in 12 a preliminary assessment of technical issues, and 13 considerations related to the management of molten 14 salt reactor salt fuels prior to reactor operations.
15 The assessment will identify potential technical, and 16 regulatory challenges related to enrichment, 17 fabrication, and transportation of MSR fuels in near 18 term technologies.
19 We're looking at some of the proposed 20 interest based on the near term technologies, and you 21 can get that information from the advanced reactor 22 share point site on the recent vendor interest on some 23 of these technologies. The MSR's results will create 24 novel base streams that will potentially require 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
78 unique storage solutions. We can preliminarily work 1
to identify any potential regulatory gaps regarding 2
management of MSR waste forms in 10 CFR part 71, and 3
72.
4 Additionally, we are also working on a 5
future focused research project that Meraj mentioned 6
to assess the applicability, and limitations of high 7
entropy alloys, because these alloys actually offer 8
great promise for MSR based designs in terms of 9
compatibility. The only problem is whether they can 10 be developed, and manufactured commercially. So we're 11 looking into their assessment. Next slide please. As 12 you know, there's going to be several questions on 13 this slide, I do want to tell you that I probably may 14 only be able to wet a small percentage of your 15 appetite on this topic.
16 We certainly are looking at any future 17 information only briefing on that. That said, there's 18 currently a great deal of interest in digital twin 19 technology because of its potential impact on many 20 industries, both nationally, and internationally, 21 including the nuclear industry. We started this 22 future focused research effort last year. At the 23 time, the knowledge, and interest for application of 24 digital twins was very low, and Member Bley mentioned 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
79 it was far out there, and I certainly agree.
1 But somebody talked about the revolution 2
in the Internet of Things, that happened in the mid 3
2000s, and that impacted significantly the development 4
of advanced manufacturing techniques in other types of 5
building construction using these digital twins. So, 6
that actually was the game changer, and that was 7
further aided by the development of the artificial 8
intelligence, and machine learning algorithms in terms 9
of application of many of these things.
10 So, at the time when we proposed it, it 11 was before DOE ARPA-E awarded the 37 million dollar 12 project under the terminal was before the UK initiated 13 a major effort. So, little did we know that this will 14 change within a year. This future focused project was 15 indeed a success story in that within a year we 16 understood that the future is now for the application 17 of digital twins. Evidence offered by the DOE ARPA-E 18 projects under GEMINA, the French, and the UK 19 initiative on digital twins, these initiatives address 20 application of digital twins for current fleet, as 21 well as advanced reactors.
22 So, what is a digital twin, and what are 23 some of the benefits it can offer? In general, a 24 digital twin is a digital representation of a 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
80 physical, or a real asset. The physical asset could 1
be a building, a machine, or in our case, a nuclear 2
reactor. Our focus questions here were what does this 3
mean for safety? What runs the virtual, or digital 4
engine? What does this mean for trust, and 5
transparency? With these questions in mind, we set 6
out to investigate the viability of digital twin 7
technology for regulatory applications.
8 Since the acceptance of the digital twins 9
proposal in May 2020, our staff worked diligently to 10 prepare a sound project plan to accomplish the goals 11 of the project, not only the future focused research 12 element of it, we also added elements should this 13 become something of a user need, or should it become 14 larger, do we have a plan to execute that, and 15 implement it. So, with that mindset, we are planning 16 for our four broad areas. Technical preparedness to 17 assess the technical issues, and gaps related to 18 digital twin applications.
19 Regulatory readiness to address regulatory 20 challenges, and gaps to use digital twins, and to 21 develop a property infrastructure. Assessment of 22 standards for use of artificial intelligence, and 23 machine learning, and multi physics reactor models in 24 digital twins. And of course one of the most 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
81 important things is communication, and knowledge 1
management. Where we made sure that we communicate, 2
and engage with active stakeholders, and also develop 3
training programs to build our own staff's 4
capabilities, and capacities, et cetera. We have 5
partnered with Idaho National Lab, and Oak Ridge 6
National Laboratory to execute various aspects of the 7
project.
8 We hope to engage the Department of Energy 9
Nuclear Energy Section, as well as the ARPA-E 10 programs, Electrical Power Research Institute, and 11 international stakeholders to enable information 12 sharing, and knowledge building. We sponsored a very 13 successful digital twin workshop that Jeremy 14 mentioned, we had attendance of 250 folks every day, 15 it was the first ever workshop in nuclear application 16 of digital twins.
17 The workshop included presentation panel 18 discussions by experts from advanced reactor 19 development companies, digital twin industry research 20 organization, national laboratories, and international 21 entities. We are planning a follow on workshop to 22 focus on technical issues, technological advances, 23 industry plans, regulatory topics that the next one is 24 in September 14th, to 16th, we'll be actually 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
82 cosponsoring, this workshop is being cosponsored by 1
NRC, DOE ARPA-E, and EPRI, and NIL, and Oak Ridge 2
National Lab.
3 We also recently issued a report on the 4
state of technology assessment for digital twin 5
applications for nuclear reactors, and facilities.
6 This report highlights the potential benefits, as well 7
as challenges in the application of digital twins, or 8
reactor systems, as well as subsystems for reactors.
9 Our key observation from the assessment include the 10 interest in digital twin technologies continue to 11 grow, and the technology is expected to experience 12 rapid, and wide industry adoption within the next ten 13 years.
14 Current efforts in nuclear industry are 15 focused on specific enabling technologies that form a 16 digital twin, such as advanced sensors, digital 17 computing, and communication infrastructure, high 18 fidelity models, data analytics, machine learning, and 19 artificial intelligence, and of course multi physics, 20 and modeling, and simulation, which you are familiar 21 with. There's also a need to develop a common 22 understanding including an agreeable definition of the 23 structure, and functions of a digital twin. That's 24 all I have on this slide, thank you so much.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
83 CHAIR SUNSERI: Ron, I see your hand is 1
up, is that from before, or you have a new question?
2 MEMBER BALLINGER: My apologies, I didn't 3
lower it.
4 CHAIR SUNSERI: I thought that was the 5
case --
6 MEMBER BALLINGER: Yeah.
7 CHAIR SUNSERI: That's okay, I just wanted 8
to check.
9 MEMBER BALLINGER: But now that I, now I 10 do have something to say.
11 CHAIR SUNSERI: Yeah, go ahead.
12 MEMBER BALLINGER: On these digital twins.
13 Digital twin is a buzz word. The agency, what would 14 you call a reactor simulator? A digital twin, that's 15 what it is. So, the agency has been using what would 16 now be called digital twins for quite some time, and 17 the advent of very powerful computers just makes 18 things a lot more easier, and makes the models better.
19 So, I would encourage the agency to not start from 20 zero when it comes to digital twins.
21 I would make an assessment of what the 22 agency, and what the industry actually is already 23 doing, which if you stretched it a little bit, they 24 would be digital twins. So, you're not starting from 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
84 scratch, I don't think you are.
1 MR. IYENGAR: No, no, I mean certainly I 2
wouldn't disagree with you Dr. Ballinger, the 3
simulator is digital representation of reactor to 4
whatever extent you want in terms of detail, you can 5
have a low detail simulator, or high detail simulator.
6 The digital twin takes it far beyond that. Why is 7
that --
8 MEMBER BALLINGER: But you're mot starting 9
from scratch. If an applicant, or utility wants to do 10 maintenance for example, they'll go to their PRA, and 11 exercise their PRA to see what the effect on CDF is 12 likely to be if I take this component out of service.
13 MR. IYENGAR: Yeah, right, I certainly 14 agree with --
15 (Simultaneous speaking.)
16 MEMBER BALLINGER: In effect they're using 17 a digital twin.
18 MR. IYENGAR: Right. So, the leap from 19 that is not only enabled by the Internet of Things, 20 but it's also enabled with the advent, or increase of 21 advanced sensors, should they be reliable. You can 22 actually put in these sensors in many different 23 locations, and get real time information. So, the 24 digital twin will be operating in real time compared 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
85 to your physical asset. Now, what is more profound, 1
which I think is probably not well understood, I 2
think, now if a digital twin exists, and there's only 3
one digital twin, not like simulators, five people 4
having different simulators.
5 If a digital twin exists either for a 6
reactor, or a subsystem, which is viable, and 7
reliable, and operates in real time, with real time 8
data, and do data analytics on, and create these 9
learning models, if they exist, you will see the 10 trust, and transparency element that I mentioned to 11 you will become so very easy. And that's what one of 12 the things that we always, between the regulator, and 13 the licensee, trust is always a very important topic.
14 MEMBER BALLINGER: Yeah, I would take a 15 close look at the NuScale simulator, it's getting 16 pretty good.
17 MR. IYENGAR: Yes, and I want to tell you 18 also, we thought about that, and we have a person in 19 our team who is the simulator expert from the TTC, so 20 I just want to let you know. Thank you so much 21 though.
22 CHAIR SUNSERI: All right, thank you for 23 that, and we're going to take a break now until 4:25, 24 and then when we come back, we have three more 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
86 branches to cover. So, at the pace we've been going, 1
it's been over 30 minutes per branch, so we only have 2
20 minutes per branch coming back after break. So, 3
keep that in mind, 20 minutes should be plenty to get 4
through your topic, I've seen the slides, so keep your 5
remarks direct. All right, so we are recessed until 6
4:25, thank you.
7 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 8
off the record at 4:03 p.m. and resumed at 4:25 p.m.)
9 CHAIR SUNSERI: It is 4:25, we will 10 reconvene the meeting with the Materials Engineering 11 Branch. And I know I made some remarks prior to the 12 break about the schedule.
13 I think the interaction between the 14 members and the Division of Engineering have been 15 good. But if you reflect on where those interactions 16 have occurred, they occurred on the key parts of the 17 presentation.
18 So, I think if we can just get to those 19 key parts of the presentation, have the good dialogue, 20 we can get through the presentation and still have a 21 timely resolution of today's meeting.
22 So, at that, will turn back to Division of 23 Engineering. So, I guess it's Steve? Are you up 24 next?
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
87 MR. RUFFIN: I am. But let me just start 1
by saying good afternoon and thank you for this 2
opportunity to present to you.
3 And let me say that I am the newly minted 4
Chief of the Materials Engineering Branch. I'm 5
focusing on newly minted here because we are just 6
north of a couple of months now. And so, I just 7
wanted to kind of make sure that for context some of 8
the historical information that you're referring to, 9
some of those things I may have to take actions and 10 take them back.
11 And because there are a couple of areas 12 where we intend to come back and brief you at another 13 time. And so, that may be my response on a couple of 14 things.
15 But I think we have a good story to tell.
16 I've worked with the great folks in my branch and we 17 prepared me to be able to provide you some 18 comprehensive materials of what we're doing in this 19 branch. And so, I look forward to the conversation.
20 Next slide, please.
21 So, the Materials Engineering Branch has 22 13 staff and provides expertise in metallurgy, non-23 destructive examination methods, physical chemistry 24 and material science, to support NRC needs for 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
88 methods, data, standards and tools, associated with 1
corrosion and cracking of nuclear power plant 2
structures and components.
3 Those can be summed up within four 4
functional areas: to characterize the causes and 5
effects of material degradations in nuclear plants, to 6
evaluate the reliability of NDE methods, to evaluate 7
advanced manufacturing technologies, and to provide 8
licensing and regulatory support, all of which I will 9
discuss in more detail on the next slide. Next slide, 10 please.
11 This slide lists major technical projects 12 associated with the four functional areas. Two of the 13 material degradation technical projects, IAD and long-14 term operations, which has a significant focus on 15 harvesting, work together providing shared resources 16 and results.
17 The purpose of that research is to get 18 more data on the radiated stainless steel well 19 materials or high fluence effects on radiated 20 stainless steel plate materials, to confirm results 21 from laboratory experiments and analytical 22 simulations, and to understand material degradations 23 during service conditions, to support regulatory 24 decisions, or long-term operations. I will cover this 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
89 topic more in one of our focus projects.
1 Another of our major projects is primary 2
water stress corrosion cracking, PWSCC, materials 3
testing. In this area, we are developing PWSCC 4
initiation and crack growth rate data on nickel base 5
alloys, using reactive pressure boundary components.
6 We are participating in the Alloy 690 7
PWSCC crack growth rate expert panel, to evaluate 8
recently collected data on nickel-base well metals.
9 The research also includes evaluating data gaps.
10 The data is used to inform regulatory 11 decisions related to inspection frequencies, and 12 future rulemaking to address 10 C.F.R. 55A updates to 13 ASME code.
14 Pristine generator tube inspection and 15 integrity issues. Our focus is on research for 16 detecting and characterizing flaws in steam generator 17 tubes, to support oversight and review of steam 18 generator tube integrity issues, to ensure that 19 service-induced degradation does not compromise their 20 structural integrity or their leak tightness.
21 Next is reliability of non-destructive 22 examinations. This is research on NDE of nuclear 23 plant systems and components, as well as the effects 24 of human performance issues on NDE reliability.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
90 This allows us to assess NDE performance 1
key knowledge gaps, and confirm the performance of 2
industry in the technologies and methodologies, to 3
support in-service inspections and disposition of IFI 4
(phonetic) findings.
5 Next listed is advanced manufacturing 6
technologies. And finally, we provide support for 7
licensing amendments, alternative requests and relief 8
requests, provide inspection support to the regions, 9
and support for ASME codes and standards activities on 10 many of the technical areas represented on this slide.
11 Next slide, please.
12 MEMBER HALNON: Steve, this is Greg 13 Halnon, real quick. Do you have a Level 3 NDE 14 specialist on your staff?
15 MR. RUFFIN: I do not know the answer to 16 that, Greg. That might be one I have to get back to 17 you on.
18 MEMBER HALNON: Okay, that's fine. I was 19 just curious. I have oversight of vendors in that 20 area. So, we can talk later.
21 MR. RUFFIN: Yeah. Okay, the first of our 22 two focus projects is advanced manufacturing 23 technologies, AMT, which are techniques and the 24 processing methods that have not been traditionally 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
91 used in the U.S. nuclear industry, and not been 1
formally standardized or codified by the nuclear 2
industry.
3 NRC's focus is based on industry interests 4
and five primary techniques or technologies: laser 5
powder bed fusion, direct energy deposition, electron 6
beam
- welding, powder metallurgy hot isostatic 7
pressing, or PM HIP, and cold spray.
8 Our focus on the five primary techniques 9
is important because, consistent with research model, 10 we must be ready. It is essential that we are 11 prepared for future reviews of AMT applications.
12 A variety of stakeholders are working 13 towards more widespread use in both existing and 14 future nuclear applications. Vendors and licensees 15 are applicants who are identifying applications and 16 developing technical basis for gaining regulatory 17 acceptance.
18 NDI has developed a roadmap to understand 19 industry needs and interests, and assist with 20 regulatory acceptance. EPRI is developing techniques 21 for large components in small modular reactors, and 22 the U.S. Department of Energy is performing basic and 23 applied research and technology development to support 24 AMT implementation.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
92 We have conducted one public workshop and 1
five seminars. In December of 2020, NRC hosted a 2
workshop on advanced manufacturing technologies for 3
nuclear applications. The workshop brought the 4
various stakeholders together and it fostered the 5
opportunity to broadly discuss potential industry 6
plans and use of AMTs.
7 We had five seminars conducted by NIST for 8
NRC staff on AMT issues, in November and December of 9
2020, and in March and April of 2021.
10 It's worth noting that NRC has a 11 significant number of collaboration efforts ongoing.
12 We have research contracts with national laboratories 13 ANL, ORNL, PNNL.
14 We finalized the MOU addendum with EPRI 15 for AMT research. We have ongoing quarterly meetings 16 with EPRI and DOE. We have an international agency 17 agreement with NIST.
18 We have two NRC staff rotations at ORNL, 19 one ongoing and one planned. We have an information 20 exchange with U.S. government counterparts, including 21 DOE, FAA, NIST, NAVAA, and NAC.
22 NRC devotes a significant amount of effort 23 to be ready for AMT. Staff activities related to AMT 24 have been organized and planned through the NRC AMT 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
93 Action Plan.
1 We have project teams that meet weekly and 2
biweekly. That includes research and NRR technical 3
staff, senior level advisors, and branch chiefs that 4
make up the AMT steering committee. In addition, the 5
project team briefs the Cognizant Division director 6
monthly.
7 MEMBER BALLINGER: This is Ron Ballinger.
8 I'll give you that all this stuff is very cool and 9
useful as far as research and development goes.
10 But if somebody comes to you and says, I 11 want to use this material, it satisfies the ASME code, 12 Section 3, Section 2, and any other code that might be 13 appropriate, why do you care that it was cold-sprayed 14 or some powder metallurgic part? Why is it an issue 15 if the material satisfies the existing codes and 16 standards?
17 MR. RUFFIN: Well, I think, Ron, I think 18 we're working on those codes and standards committees 19 and we're trying to make sure that we understand any 20 gaps that are there, that may exist, in terms of 21 making sure that it satisfies our regulatory needs and 22 concerns.
23 And so, I think that's the answer. I 24 think we're integral to those codes and standards, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
94 discussions, that you're referring to.
1 MEMBER BALLINGER: Okay. All right.
2 MR. RUFFIN: Okay. So, as we look to the 3
future, our efforts to continue, as we assess the 4
safety significance difference between AMTs and 5
traditional manufacturing processes from a
6 performance-based perspective.
7 For each of the five primary techniques or 8
technologies, staff has developed or will develop 9
technical reports and draft guidelines documents.
10 We prepare the NRC staff to address, as 11 appropriate, industry implementation of components 12 manufactured using AMTs, to 10 C.F.R. 5059 process.
13 We identify and address AMT 14 characteristics pertinent to safety, from risk 15 performance-based perspective, that are not managed or 16 addressed by codes, standards, regulations.
17 We provide guidance and tools for review 18 consistency, communication, and knowledge management, 19 for the efforts associated with AMT reviews. And we 20 provide transparency to stakeholders on the process 21 for AMT approvals.
22 As Jeremy mentioned earlier, we recognize 23 the need to have a more focused briefing on AMT. We 24 propose to come back and provide ACRS a dedicated 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
95 briefing, when the time is right, maybe in about a 1
year. Next slide, please.
2 The second focused project is harvesting.
3 Our harvesting efforts focuses on obtaining 4
information on passive components from decommissioning 5
nuclear power plants, which supports the maturation of 6
aging management programs, and provides increased 7
assurance that programs can safely mitigate materials 8
degradation to a long-term operation.
9 Harvesting is performed by removing aged 10 materials from the decommissioning reactor, and 11 sending the material to lab for testing and 12 characterization.
13 Our program covers research on the 14 degradation of metallic, concrete, and electrical 15 components, various aging mechanisms, such as 16 corrosion, irradiation cracking, and other forms of 17 physically and chemically induced damage.
18 Generally, the most valuable aspects of 19 harvesting cannot be performed remotely in the plant, 20 but require testing with specialized equipment in a 21 lab or hot cell.
22 Characterization that would be done in the 23 plant without removing materials is mostly limited to 24 NDE.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
96 Harvesting is significant because it 1
increases our understanding of material degradation 2
during service conditions, to support regulatory 3
decisions on long-term operation.
4 We have supported important material 5
testing priorities to harvesting, including reactor 6
internals from Zorita and neutron absorbing materials 7
from Zion.
8 As for our future direction, NRC 9
strategies are formed by harvesting priorities, based 10 on regulatory value and harvesting opportunities. We 11 look to perform harvesting when the opportunity aligns 12 with our priorities.
13 Our collaboration efforts include NEA 14 Studsvik Material Integrity Life Extension, or SMILE, 15
- project, which performs research on materials 16 harvested from the reactor internals, reactor pressure 17 vessel, piping, and steam generators from shut down 18 Swedish plant.
19 NEA framework for irradiation experiments 20 (FIDES),
which supports the radiation-assisted 21 degradation research on radiated stainless steel 22 wells, and creep relaxation of (Audio interference.)
23 materials.
24 In addition, we have an MOU addendum with 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
97 EPRI for PWSCC expert panel activities, PWSCC crack 1
initiation testing, and long-term operations research.
2 Our priorities as we move forward are to 3
maintain awareness of operating experience, to 4
identify emergent degradation issues or materials 5
performance trends that could affect plant safety, to 6
pursue information sharing and cooperative research 7
with DOE and industry counterparts, to identify 8
opportunities to harvest X plant materials for 9
analysis and testing, to engage with DOE, EPRI and 10 international counterparts to identify alternatives to 11 the Halden Research Reactor Project for X plant 12 materials, and radiation and irradiation materials 13 testing.
14 MEMBER BALLINGER: This is Ron Ballinger.
15 I hate to be a gadfly here, but I'm going to be.
16 These harvesting efforts are usually extremely 17 expensive.
18 And we've just been going through, and are 19 still going through, an issue with regard to Reg 20 Guide 1.99, where a lot of work has been done to 21 extend and extrapolate out to 80 years the issue of 22 pressure vessel embrittlement, to see if there's an 23 issue, and in fact there is a deviation with the 24 current empirical correlation.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
98 But the NRC has decided not to change 1
anything. And so my question then is, why are we 2
caring about harvesting pressure-vessel samples when 3
we're not going to make use of them in any of the 4
analysis of pressure-vessel degradation out to 5
80 years?
6 How do we rationalize that kind of 7
harvesting when we are not going to make use of, or 8
we've elected not to make use of, the data from those 9
harvestings?
10 MR. RUFFIN: So, I can't really speak to 11 that so much as in terms of understanding or 12 appreciating our priorities for it. I think one of 13 the things that I've come to learn in the two months 14 that I've been here about harvesting, is it helps 15 inform us in terms of whether or not the aging 16 management plans, and things of that nature, are 17 sufficient for long-term operation, and for kind of 18 the decision that we've been making for these, and we 19 confirm those.
20 And the decisions or considerations or 21 priorities around harvesting will vary, depending on 22 the safety significance of the technical issue, and 23 things like that.
24 So, I don't know where that falls in that 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
99 range of things, but certainly from what I've gathered 1
during the last couple of months here, we find that 2
there is a great deal of value in it and for those 3
areas that we think are high-priority. And I see 4
Louise has just hopped on there.
5 MS. LUND: Thank you. And I just wanted 6
to make a comment and provide some insight too on the 7
8 The perspective that we don't plan to do 9
anything about it is not really our perspective right 10 now. Really, what we've done is we have -- the 11 interactions that we had with the subcommittee and 12 full committee previously was based on that review 13 that we did where we do with reg guides on a periodic 14 basis.
15 What we did learn from that, and also in 16 interactions with the industry, is we need to take a 17 very focused, more surgical, approach towards figuring 18 out -- and this is really what the ACRS said too, is 19 how to go about doing it.
20 So, you target the plants that really will 21 be impacted, without inadvertently costing the 22 industry a lot of money, when they may not be impacted 23 by it.
24 And in doing that, we went back and looked 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
100 at doing a more holistic evaluation, also looking at 1
Appendix H too. So, really, where we are now is 2
having discussions about recommendations that have 3
been put forward internally to figure out what we 4
should do next.
5 And we also did a little bit more digging 6
and analysis to figure out when we would really need 7
to move forward on doing these updates, and moving 8
forward on these things. So, that's really where 9
we're at. So, concluding that we aren't going to do 10 anything about it, that's not the perspective that we 11 have.
12 And this is just something that has been 13 subject to more analysis, more discussion, and really 14 I would say an expansion of really what we're looking 15 at and how to go about doing it, with the idea of 16 being responsive to the need to do it specifically for 17 the plants that are really going to be most affected 18 by it in the time frame that is most likely.
19 And that's a lot of what we've been doing.
20 We've been spending a lot of time -- Ann Bradford and 21 I over at NRR -- in trying to make sure that we've got 22 alignment also above us too, as to really how to go 23 about doing all this.
24 And as we were mentioning in our 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
101 communication over to the committee, is we are doing 1
that and we plan to, when we have the path sort of 2
laid out, just come back over to the committee and 3
discuss what the road ahead looks like at this point.
4 So, that's really where we are with that 5
particular item. And so, as far as with the 6
harvesting, it does help inform a lot of the work that 7
we do and sort of reality-checks a lot of the work 8
that we do.
9 And these are opportunities really to do 10 that. And we've been able to partner with others that 11 see value in this and really want to move forward too.
12 Anyway, this is another area where we 13 really would like to kind of talk more extensively 14 with the committee on as well.
15 MEMBER BALLINGER: We are working on 16 scheduling a meeting just exactly for this purpose.
17 So, I'm sure it'll happen sooner than later.
18 MR. RUFFIN: Ron, I also want to invite 19 Rob Tregoning, our senior-level advisor. His hand's 20 up. I'd like him to weigh in on this issue as well.
21 Go ahead, Rob.
22 MR. TREGONING: Yeah. Thanks, Steve.
23 This is Rob Tregoning, Senior Technical Advisor for 24 Division of Engineering. Dr. Ballinger, I just wanted 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
102 to clarify.
1 Harvesting RPV material is not a priority 2
for NRC harvesting efforts. As you noted, there's 3
been extensive research in this area, going back over 4
50 years. And industry currently has programs where 5
they're looking at continual radiation of surveillance 6
capital material. And we'll be getting information, 7
or they'll be sharing that information from that 8
research with us.
9 So, the SMILE program, which is an 10 international program, is doing harvesting of RPV 11 material. But in these international programs, you 12 can't tailor them specifically for your interest.
13 So, there are many international partners 14 that are very interested in harvesting RPV materials, 15 but it's not a particular interest of NRC. And it 16 just so happens that they're doing it under that SMILE 17 program, to satisfy other interests of other 18 participating organizations.
19 We're not doing any other harvesting in 20 that area in any of the programs that Steve's talking 21 about.
22 MEMBER BALLINGER: Very good. Thank you.
23 CHAIR SUNSERI: So, I guess I would 24 suggest in this area, since there is interest, why 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
103 don't we go ahead and look into having an informal 1
meeting for planning purposes, to set up a Skype for 2
this future meeting on this topic, because I think 3
several of us might have some ideas that -- Steve, if 4
you could just coordinate with Jose and we'll get an 5
informal setup to scope out that future meeting, much 6
like we scoped out this meeting.
7 MEMBER BALLINGER: And Chris Brown, I 8
don't know if he's in on this meeting, but he's been 9
working on this as well.
10 CHAIR SUNSERI: Okay. So, Chris Brown 11 will be our staff contact.
12 MR. RUFFIN: Great. Okay, and that 13 concludes my remarks. So, the next presenter is Chris 14 Cook.
15 CHAIR SUNSERI: Thank you very much, 16 Steve. That was a good presentation, by the way. You 17 stayed right on the point. Appreciate that.
18 MR. RUFFIN: Thanks very much.
19 CHAIR SUNSERI: All right, next.
20 MR. COOK: All right, well good afternoon.
21 My name is Chris Cook and I'm Chief of the 22 Instrumentation Controls and Electrical Engineering 23 Branch. And thank you all very much for the 24 opportunity to present in the different research 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
104 programs in my branch. Next slide, please.
1 So, my branch of approximately 15 staff 2
have a wide range of expertise in electronics, 3
computer
- science, instrumentation and
- control, 4
software and hardware design, power engineering, and 5
electrical engineering.
6 The goal of the branch is to implement a 7
broad research program that utilizes these technical 8
skills, to support regulatory review and oversight of 9
safety-and security-related systems and components.
10 The branch has three core functional 11 areas: instrumentation and controls, cybersecurity, 12 and electrical and power engineering.
13 As part of the instrumentation and 14 controls research area, staff are involved in 15 regulatory research that enables plant modernization, 16 and facilitates safety-related review of digital 17 instrumentation and control systems.
18 Staff are also involved in developing 19 regulatory guidance that facilitates both design and 20 review of safety-related software and hardware.
21 Finally, staff in this area of the branch 22 have expertise in a
wide range of wireless 23 communication technologies.
24 The second functional area for the branch 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
105 is cybersecurity. This is an exciting and actively 1
growing research area for us. We've added several new 2
staff since the last ACRS biannual meeting, and we've 3
also recently started several new projects. And we'll 4
touch on these projects more in my focus slides.
5 But regarding the cybersecurity hiring, as 6
Louise said, it really has been an all-of-the-above 7
approach to deal with the new research requests from 8
the program offices.
9 Yes, we've hired new staff from outside 10 the agency since the last biannual meeting. I've also 11 been able to pull in staff from other offices around 12 the agency.
13 This summer I also have two college 14 student
- interns, one focusing specifically on 15 cybersecurity and wireless heart.
16 We also have a number of contracts with 17 several DOE national laboratories. So, I feel like 18 we've been busy, but we are getting the research work 19 done that has been requested by the program offices.
20 The third functional area is the broad 21 topic of electrical and power engineering. These 22 staff focus on regulatory guidance associated with 23 topics such as electrical equipment, qualification, 24 long-term aging of cables, onsite emergency AC and DC 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
106 power
- supplies, and onsite electrical power 1
distribution systems.
2 This third functional area is directly led 3
by Mr. Ken Miller, and he'll be briefing on this area 4
immediately after I wrap up.
5 I'd also be remiss if I didn't note some 6
of the rich collaborative relationships we have with 7
a number of external organizations in these research 8
areas.
9 At the moment, my staff has especially 10 rich collaborations ongoing with several DOE 11 laboratories: EPRI, NIST, IFE, Halden, the Office of 12 Nuclear Regulation in the UK, and several IEEE and IEC 13 standard committee working groups. Next slide, 14 please.
15 This slide highlights the diversity of 16 projects covered by the three technical focused areas 17 of my branch.
18 In the digital INC area, some examples of 19 our efforts include a recently finished project that 20 provides a technical basis for developing guidance for 21 the safe use of embedded digital devices, or EDDs, in 22 commercial nuclear power plants. And we're now 23 sunsetting that research.
24 Outcomes from that project are captured in 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
107 a newer report that provides observations on EDDs, 1
based on such things as their classification, 2
configurability, consequences of failure, and the 3
potential for common-cause failures.
4 This report also reviews how other 5
agencies worldwide, those nuclear and non-nuclear, 6
regulate and approve use of EDDs.
7 Other examples of research in the digital 8
INC area are continuing research to investigate 9
common-cause failure, and continue research to 10 identify and control for hazards and programmable 11 digital devices.
12 A fourth example is a project area we're 13 actively collaborating on with EPRI, to develop 14 training for NRC staff on how to assess results 15 generated by EPRI's digital engineering guide.
16 This includes training where a regulator 17 or inspector could find the information needed to 18 reach a
safety conclusion, safety requirement 19 specification, downstream verifications and 20 validations, and points in the process where an 21 inspector would be able to perform the required 22 activities.
23 This is a custom-tailored class, which is 24 separate from other existing EPRI training, for 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
108 engineers who are currently using the software to 1
execute modifications, or develop new designs.
2 In the cybersecurity area, I'd like to 3
highlight four projects. The first three bullets are 4
going to be covered in greater detail in my following 5
slides, is their focus area is the ACRS members told 6
us you wanted to hear about today. The fourth bullet, 7
however, is not covered in those slides.
8 Since the start of the calendar year, 9
Mr. Paul Rebstock has helped coordinate a series of 10 expert seminars on a range of cybersecurity topics, in 11 collaboration with our partners in NSIR.
12 These seminars were open to all NRC staff, 13 including staff in our regional offices, through 14 resident inspectors at plants.
15 Topics included meeting with counterparts 16 at the Canadian Nuclear Security Commission on 17 February 18th, and later with counterparts in the 18 Office of Nuclear Regulation in the U.K. on 19 April 23rd, to discuss a wide variety of cybersecurity 20 topics.
21 These half-day virtual meetings discussed 22 regulations and guidance, regulatory use of industry 23 standards, and lessons learned from inspections and 24 exercises.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
109 Another example seminar occurred on 1
April 29th, when experts from the Mitre Corporation 2
met virtually with NRC staff to describe their 3
adversarial tactics, techniques, and common knowledge, 4
or ATTACK, cybersecurity framework for industrial 5
control systems.
6 Although the first series of scheduled 7
seminars is now complete, we hope to continue the 8
seminar series in the future, and we're coordinating 9
details with NSIR.
10 These seminars could also be expanded to 11 include discussion on cybersecurity issues that can 12 arise with use of artificial intelligence and machine 13 learning, which is on our radar as we start to get 14 more engaged in this area with our sister division, in 15 the Office of Research.
16 Regarding the electrical and power 17 engineering area of the branch, we also have a number 18 of interesting, active major projects.
19 However, I don't want to steal Ken 20 Miller's thunder. So, I'll let him brief you on those 21 activities after we cover the two technical focus 22 areas that were requested by the ACRS members.
23 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Hey, Chris, this is 24 Jose March-Leuba. Are we talking about the licensee 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
110 network replica for cybersecurity training? Could you 1
give us a 30-second description of what it is? I'm 2
interested to know if it's a
software-based 3
simulation, or do you have (Audio interference.)
4 MR. COOK: You know what? That is 5
actually coming up, I believe, in the next slide. So, 6
if you can advance to the next slide.
7 MEMBER REMPE: Before you do that though, 8
I have a question while we're on this slide.
9 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Sure, Member Remke.
10 Go on.
11 MEMBER REMPE: In the experts seminar, you 12 mentioned that you're talking to experts that are 13 knowledgeable about the cybersecurity standards.
14 Have you started going through and 15 reviewing the IEC standards, like you are with this 16 cable and equipment and offsite power standards? Or 17 are you just not far along yet to want to try and 18 review those standards and accept them, or reject 19 certain portions of them?
20 MR. COOK: So, we're getting involved with 21 them and it is going slow. But one of the things that 22 we're actually doing -- I was going to mention it with 23 the wireless technology -- is there's a NIST working 24 group, federal agency coordination group, that we're 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
111 involved in.
1 So, we are getting involved with them. We 2
are actually growing more into them. But right now, 3
it's only the NIST workshop that my staff is actually 4
participating in.
5 MEMBER REMPE: Okay, thank you.
6 MR. COOK: You bet. All right, Slide 28, 7
please. Great, thank you. One of the ACRS-requested 8
focus areas for my branch was the topic of 9
cybersecurity, which was actually challenging for me 10 to summarize and text, given the limited amount of 11 time that I have today.
12 So, as a compromise, what I thought I'd do 13 is use graphics instead, to illustrate two ongoing 14 research projects at a very high level.
15 The first one is the Attack surface, which 16 is loosely described as the sum of vulnerabilities and 17 attack vectors for a system.
18 One of my cybersecurity staff, Dr. Onya 19 Kim, developed the top graphic to describe the attack 20 surface of human body, which we're sort of all 21 familiar with -- don't touch your eyes, don't touch 22 your nose, and mouth refrain, which is especially true 23 today with the pandemic going on.
24 In fact, if you look closely at the green 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
112 particle at the end of the finger, the spikes on it, 1
to make it look like a COVID virus.
2 Obviously, my branch is not researching 3
COVID. Rather, the objective of this research is to 4
characterize the potential attack surface of critical 5
digital assets, or CDAs, located at nuclear power 6
plants.
7 Typically, these CDAs are located inside 8
the protected area and behind the data diode. The 9
characterization of the attack surface will be based 10 on a definition that is appropriate for digital INC in 11 nuclear facilities, and will be technology-neutral, so 12 that it can be easily extended to new technologies as 13 they're implemented and adapted to advance reactors.
14 The knowledge gained by this research can 15 be used by NRC staff to risk-inform the cybersecurity 16
- reviews, and inspectors to support
- upgrades, 17 modifications, in advance reactors.
18 Now, the second figure gets to the 19 licensing network replica, which there was a question 20 about. And this second figure was developed by 21 Dr. Doug Eskins, who is working in my branch on a 22 detail, but he's actually permanently located in NRC's 23 Technical Training Center in Chattanooga.
24 As you know, NRC staff verified there are 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
113 licensees who meet cybersecurity requirements by 1
performing onsite inspections and technical 2
assessments.
3 To perform these activities, NRC staff 4
must be well and continuously trained on licensee 5
cybersecurity programs, our implementations and 6
configurations, relative to licensing networks and 7
critical digital assets -- CDAs. I should stick with 8
the acronym.
9 However, tools to train NRC staff on 10 licensee cybersecurity systems could be improved. The 11 goal of this research project is to investigate the 12 feasibility of improving cybersecurity training for 13 NRC staff using a hands-on cybersecurity training 14 platform, something we're calling a licensing network 15 replica.
16 This replica would train staff with a tool 17 that is representative of licensee systems, and it 18 would provide NRC staff with the ability to learn 19 firsthand how to verify regulatory compliance using 20 performance-based methods of both current and future 21 licensee systems.
22 The first step is to develop the set of 23 requirements and identify available resources for the 24 licensee network replica.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
114 This step will document the state-of-the-1 art and technology and resources for replicating 2
networks and digital systems.
3 The second step will then assess the 4
feasibility. For example, the cost, the risk and 5
technical maturity, at various replica implementa-6 tions, and then recommend options for future NRC 7
decision-making.
8 Both the attack surface and licensing 9
network project were just started within the past two 10 months. So, obviously, more details will be coming on 11 these projects in the months to come. Next slide, 12 please.
13 The second ACRS-requested focus areas on 14 the topic of advancement of wireless and enabling 15 technology. This is an active research area for us 16 too, both within the agency and external.
17 As I
already mentioned, we are 18 participating in the NIST-led advance communication 19 technology working group, which is chartered under the 20 Agency Committee on Standards Policy.
21 My branch has two active research topics 22 that fall under the category of wireless technologies.
23 And both of these started just this last calendar 24 year.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
115 We developed this figure, or this figure 1
on this slide, in response to questions we received 2
about how these projects overlap, since both projects 3
actually had a wireless in the title. And I thought 4
this figure may be helpful for explaining both 5
projects today.
6 One project is with NRR. This project has 7
a focus on the potential safety implications of 8
wireless signals on safety-related, or important-to-9 safety, equipment.
10 Even though the safety-related equipment 11 is hard-wired, use of wireless devices in nearness of 12 equipment can cause spurious signals, or degrade data 13 fidelity, in the wire environment.
14 The outcome of this research is to examine 15 topics, such as the appropriate wireless exclusion 16 area size, electromagnetic interference in data 17 fidelity, potential impacts from wireless use during 18 plant operation, as well as during outages, when the 19 wireless environment can change.
20 The second project is with NSIR. The 21 objective of this research is to gain knowledge on 22 potential cybersecurity risks from introducing 23 wireless technology devices, the wireless technology, 24 into emergency preparedness, safety or security-25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
116 critical networks isolated by either a hardware-based 1
data diode, or air gap.
2 The information gained from this research 3
will inform the NRC staff of security risks of using 4
wireless communication technologies from other safety-5 critical industries that have implemented wireless 6
technologies within an isolated network.
7 This research project will collect 8
information on how these non-NRC-regulated facilities 9
isolate their internal safety or security-critical 10 networks.
11 If a wireless technology is found that's 12 been implemented in an isolated network, then we'll 13 also assess the capacity to which that wireless 14 technology was used.
15 The project will also report out on 16 potential security risks considered by these 17 organizations, and what mitigation strategies they 18 used.
19 We'll also ask about the analyses and 20 security controls they used, which led the high-risk 21 facilities to determine that the secure use of 22 wireless technology within an isolated network was 23 actually appropriate.
24 Finally, this effort will document safety-25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
117 critical facilities that evaluated, and then decided 1
not to implement wireless technologies.
2 This research project will provide 3
recommendations in the form of best-practices, to 4
prevent the introduction of new cybersecurity attack 5
pathways, analyses best suited for addressing the 6
change in attack
- surface, and what wireless 7
architectures for communication are simpler and safer 8
to implement.
9 Technical research reports from both the 10 NSIR and NRR projects are expected in late-FY22.
11 Unless there are any questions, I'd like to turn the 12 floor over to Ken Miller, who will be discussing the 13 electrical team that he manages.
14 MEMBER BROWN: I have a question. This is 15 Charlie Brown, Chris.
16 MR. COOK: Oh, good afternoon. Yes.
17 MEMBER BROWN: Thank you. Yesterday, we 18 had a subcommittee meeting with a summary of the 19 cybersecurity efforts. And one of the things that was 20 discussed, obviously, was the levels of defense and 21 the figures they showed.
22 They showed the security, safety, site, 23 and some outside the site. Outside the boundary 24 conditions. And my normal focus in on the safety 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
118 systems, but they did talk about the physical part of 1
it.
2 In other words, within that protected 3
boundary is the -- for instance, all the guard 4
capabilities, the intrusion alarms, etc., etc. Do you 5
all support their capability in the physical security 6
and their use of electronics and other computer-based 7
systems?
8 MR. COOK: So, I have Dr. Onya Kim on the 9
phone, who can perhaps add more, if needed. But what 10 I'd like to do is -- I attended yesterday's seminar 11 and was listening to that meeting as well.
12 What we're doing is, we're limiting this 13 work. We are looking at all the critical data assets.
14 And in fact, the attack surface is really looking at 15 the CDAs that are there that get into it.
16 And as you know from what Jim Bearsy was 17 talking about yesterday, that's sort of the subset 18 that we're looking at are those CDAs. And as you 19 know, there are different subsets of that.
20 So, as far as which particular ones we're 21 doing, we're still in the process of putting that 22 together.
23 The attack surface itself, when you look 24 at it, there are a couple of things that we're hoping 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
119 to get out of that attack surface project. And we 1
want to get a comprehensive list of the attack surface 2
elements that are behind the data diode.
3 And the other thing we want to do is 4
really get an attack surface library. Something like, 5
we're thinking about like a living document of 6
different types of CDAs that are behind the diode.
7 So, unless I see Onya raising her hand or coming to 8
the floor, I'll stop there.
9 MEMBER BROWN: Great. Let me amplify that 10 a little bit. I mean, the way it was represented in 11 the boundary conditions, was that the physical 12 security is handled on the safety side of the data 13 diode. In other words, it's blocked.
14 So, fundamentally, you evaluate their CDAs 15 against the same metrics you would use for either what 16 I call non-reactor safety-type systems, which may have 17 different uses in how you access them.
18 Some of them may even be wireless, which 19 you talk about your wireless stuff as part of this as 20 well, and so I'm just curious as to if there was -- I 21 don't want to get into real detail and drive this 22 thing to ad infinitum.
23 It seemed to me a logical point for you 24 all to support that from an advanced research point to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
120 make sure they're covered with the best protection 1
they can relative. Because they have to communicate 2
outside.
3 (Simultaneous speaking.)
4 Is it only one way, and how do they do 5
that one way or not one way?
6 MR. COOK: Yeah. Well, my staff just kept 7
growing through the zero tax that -- the project does 8
include all the safety, security, EP devices. All the 9
CDAs that are in there.
10 MEMBER BROWN: So, you all do support them 11 then. Okay.
12 MR. COOK: Yes, we do. Yes.
13 MEMBER BROWN: That's the easy answer 14 then. Okay, thank you.
15 MR. COOK: Thank you.
16 MEMBER BROWN: Okay, Chris.
17 MR. COOK: Okay.
18 MEMBER BROWN: I'm done.
19 MR. COOK: All right. With that, I'll 20 turn it over to Ken, who is going to be handling the 21 Electrical Engineering Team.
22 MR. MILLER: Good afternoon. As Chris has 23 said earlier, my name is Ken Miller. I'm a Senior 24 Electrical Engineer and Team Lead of the Electrical 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
121 Engineering Team. And I too appreciate the 1
opportunity to speak with and present to you ACRS 2
folks
- today, presenting about the Electrical 3
Engineering Team's projects. Go to Slide 31, please?
4 The Electrical Engineering Team develops 5
and implements a broad research program in the 6
discipline of electrical engineering that supports the 7
identification and resolution of safety issues in an 8
effective and efficient manner.
9 Functional areas for Electrical 10 Engineering include offsite power sources, onsite 11 electrical power distribution systems, emergency power 12 sources, electrical equipment qualification, and 13 electrical cable and equipment aging.
14 First, I'll be focusing on this slide here 15 on the electrical cable and equipment aging program.
16 For this program, we aim to assess the capability of 17 commonly used condition monitoring techniques for 18 predicting operational readiness of cables during 19 extended operations, independently assess industry 20 guidance for managing the aging of cables in submerged 21 and inaccessible environments, shorten the timeline 22 for licensing decisions, including the subsequent 23 license renewal application reviews through support of 24 enhancement of regulatory guidance, such as the goal 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
122 in the SRP for cable aging and condition monitoring 1
during long-term operation.
2 And then also, endorsing consensus codes 3
and standards related to the electrical cable 4
qualification and condition monitoring.
5 We have two recent accomplishments for 6
this project. First of all, as of October of 2020, we 7
completed thermal and radiation and condition 8
monitoring testing of cable samples, to simulate 50, 9
60, and 80 years of operation.
10 We've also completed a
statistical 11 analysis of industry test data of EPRI's tan delta 12 approach to manage cables in submerged environments.
13 Currently, we're working on obtaining 14 state-of-the-art knowledge regarding condition 15 monitoring techniques for electrical cables, and 16 addressing knowledge gaps in the area, such as 17 sequential versus concurrent cable aging approaches, 18 assessing the viability of condition-based 19 qualification, and assessment of EPRI's tan delta 20 approach to managing aging of cables, especially those 21 restricted to submerged or otherwise inaccessible 22 environments.
23 We are also working with the program 24 office in reviewing the project results to-date to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
123 assess for unanswered questions from the user-needs 1
request, as well as other cable management issues to 2
be addressed in future projects.
3 For future work on this program, we're 4
engaged in the following: we're also too looking at 5
cable harvesting. Currently, the NRC, EPRI, DOE, and 6
other research organizations, are engaged in an effort 7
to harvest naturally aged materials, including cables 8
from the Ringhals Nuclear Plant in Sweden.
9 NRC is specifically interested in 10 harvesting between 200 and 300 feet of cross-link 11 polyethylene, polyolefin, and ethylene propylene 12 rubber insulated cables, to conduct research to 13 further study research gaps, such as diffusion-limited 14 oxidation, demonstrate inverse temperature effects, 15 synergistic effects, and activation energy.
16 In our Mist Condition Monitoring project, 17 Mist has submitted to the NRC all eight aging interval 18 reports, those reports covering the aging, and then 19 the subsequent testing of those samples of the various 20 eight intervals.
21 The next milestone is to submit the draft 22 final technical letter report to the NRC by August of 23 this year, August 1st. And then the NRC will review 24 and comment on that technical letter report. They'll 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
124 incorporate the comments, and then issue the final 1
report by mid-September 2021.
2 As a follow-on to that, we are getting a 3
contract in place for LOCA testing of these aged 4
samples. We've initiated a contract to conduct this 5
LOCA testing, as well as producing the final 6
evaluation new reg of the project, and this will be 7
LOCA testing these aged cable specimens that we have.
8 The contracting officer has received 9
proposals to perform this LOCA test and to do this 10 report generation. The next step will be selection by 11 the evaluation panel of the valid proposals to meet 12 the minimum qualification requirements. Slide 32, 13 please.
14 The Electrical Engineering Team is 15 ensuring effective representation of the NRC and 16 harmonizing industry standards and development 17 activities for IEEE and IEC.
18 As part of our program, we're continuing 19 to develop new reg guides, revising reg guides, 20 including consolidation of reg guides, based on newer 21 standard versions to support the overall effort to 22 streamline and update regulatory guide infrastructure.
23 We're strategically working on the prioritization of 24 these efforts. For instance, the IEEE standards.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
125 Some of the reg guides that we're working 1
on currently, 1.9, which endorses IEEE standards, the 2
version of 387 and 2420, is in final review stages.
3 For that reg guide, we are going to be scheduling a 4
public meeting in the near future to meet with NEI to 5
ensure their concerns and the current resolution of 6
the reg guide are understood.
7 Another draft reg guide is for IEEE, IEC 8
Standard 323. We're supporting that effort as well.
9 That's for Reg Guide 189. That is also in its final 10 review stages.
11 And then another one that's kicking off 12 now is developing a draft guide, endorsing IEEE 741 13 for degraded voltage.
14 Another topic that we'd like to highlight 15 is our ongoing efforts on the electric power grid as 16 the preferred power supply for nuclear power plant 17 safety.
18 We're working closely with the program 19 office, observing and assessing potential changes with 20 the grid, with respect to reliability, stability, and 21 quality, as compared with the nuclear power plant 22 electrical system interface requirements.
23 We're also supporting the annual NRC FERC 24 Joint Commission meeting, which will be held this year 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
126 on November 4th. During this meeting, our commission 1
discusses various topics, including grid stability and 2
its effect on nuclear power plants.
3 As was mentioned earlier by Meraj, myself 4
and others in our branch, as well as research and the 5
other program offices, are involved with the IEEE, 6
working on consensus standards. And of course, the 7
benefit of that is providing NRC perspective as these 8
standards are developed, which supports our efforts to 9
develop guidance endorsing those standards as they are 10 produced.
11 Another thing I would mention about that, 12 I also was involved with encouraging IEEE and PEC, 13 which is the nuclear program electrical standards, to 14 get in the practice of submitting reports to the NRC 15 on which standards they feel have priority in terms of 16 NRC guidance endorsement.
17 I think one of the other members also had 18 talked about ways to find out what the standards are, 19 endorsed by the NRC. One recommendation I would make, 20 at least in terms of IEEE, is the standards developed.
21 The SDO coordinators maintain lists of all 22 of the standards and their effective reg guides that 23 we're working with, or new standards that we're 24 planning to develop reg guides for.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
127 So, that concludes my remarks. Unless 1
there are any questions, I will at that point then 2
turn it over to Dogan Seber. Slide 33, please.
3 Thank you. So, is Mr. Seber ready?
4 MR. SEBER: Yes, I'm ready, fully drawn.
5 Can I backtrack for a second, to the electrical? The 6
last slide?
7 You made a comment about your graph or 8
your presentation shows Reg Guide 1.9 and the support 9
for 387-2017, which that's already in place and it was 10 just recently run through the ringer for updating Reg 11 Guide 1.9. Is that not complete? Or did we miss 12 something?
13 MR. MILLER: That reg guide -- I mean, 14 yes, we have completed it. As you recall, we've done 15 our ACRS presentation on that. But we are still 16 working on, like I said, the public meeting, to go 17 back over comment resolutions with NEI.
18 MR. SEBER: Okay.
19 MR. MILLER: And hopefully in the final 20 stages of getting through that. And then soon after 21 that getting that document issued. So, I guess that's 22 kind of where we're at with this.
23 MR. SEBER: Okay, thank you.
24 MR. MILLER: Okay, Doug. Thank you.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
128 MR. SEBER: Okay. Thank you, Ken. Good 1
afternoon everyone. I am Dogan Seber, Chief of the 2
Structural, Geotechnical, Seismic Engineering Branch.
3 If you could have the next slide, Slide 34, please.
4 As our branch name indicates, we have 5
three functional areas that our research activities 6
fall into. Structural efforts primarily supporting 7
operating reactor safety issues and long-term 8
operation of aging nuclear fleet. In this area, we 9
also have activities supporting advanced reactors.
10 The second functional area, seismic 11 research, is to support seismic hazard assessments --
12 so both operating reactors and new reactors -- and 13 also supports the agency's POANHI process, the Process 14 of Ongoing Assessment of Natural Hazard Information.
15 And lastly, in the geotechnical functional 16 area, we have an important research activity that 17 supports the new reactor business line.
18 In the next three slides, I will provide 19 a list of key projects covering all those three 20 functional areas, and briefly describe each project.
21 If you could have Slide 35, please.
22 In the area of structural research, I will 23 highlight primarily five key projects. The first one 24 is irradiation-assisted concrete degradation project.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
129 This activity is one of the larger efforts our branch 1
leads in this functional area. I will have a separate 2
slide on this project next. I'll skip this one for 3
now.
4 And the second project, harvesting of 5
irradiated concrete material, from a decommissioned 6
nuclear power plant, this research focuses on 7
obtaining irradiated concrete samples primarily 8
support the overall concrete irradiation project. I 9
will have a separate slide on this as well, so I'm 10 skipping this one too.
11 The third research project I wanted to 12 highlight is the prestressed concrete containment 13 aging project.
14 This is primarily international 15 collaboration. VERCORS is an international project.
16 It is a French light effort that relies on one-third 17 scale model of a post-tensioned concrete containment 18 vessel, which is extensively instrumented.
19 We are participating in this international 20 activity, especially in the areas of creep and aging 21 effects of post-tensioned concrete.
22 This is a topic identified in the EMDA 23 report, the so-called Expanded Materials Degradation 24 Assessment Report, as in the way of low knowledge and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
130 potentially high significance. And our partner in 1
this project is Sandia National Labs.
2 The next project I briefly wanted to 3
highlight is the Alkali-Silica Reaction project, the 4
so-called ASR project. Actually, I'm happy to report 5
that this large activity has concluded.
6 We have four extensive reports produced 7
and provided by our contractor, NIST, and addressed 8
ASR issues from both material aspects and structural 9
safety perspectives.
10 During these research activities, our 11 staff supported extensively to program office and 12 their staff in their Seabrook licensing activities, 13 based on primarily information we gained from this 14 research.
15 The last activity I want to say in this 16 structural area I want to highlight, is the risk-17 informed, performance-based, seismic safety and 18 seismic isolation for advanced reactors. Is there a 19 question?
20 (Off-record discussion.)
21 CHAIR SUNSERI: Charlie, your mic is open.
22 MR. SEBER: Okay. I guess I can get to it 23 here. The last one in the structural area I was going 24 to mention is the risk-informed performance based 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
131 seismic safety and seismic isolation for advance 1
reactor research project.
2 This is yet another project I will have a 3
special slide. So for now, I'll also skip that one 4
too. Those three slides that will be our focus 5
projects that we'll be talking about. Next three 6
slides.
7 In the area of seismic we have four key 8
projects that I wanted to briefly highlight and give 9
the rationale on why we do it.
10 The first one is seismic source 11 characterization and grand motion model updates 12 project. This is a joint project with the United 13 States Geological Survey. And the project addresses 14 potential updates related to seismic sources and grand 15 motion models using seismic hazard assessments.
16 And this interagency agreement, NRC and 17 USGS Staff, we work together to address both, how both 18 agencies conduct seismic hazard calculations.
19 Especially emphasizing differences utilized by the two 20 agencies.
21 And the goal is here to jointly identify 22 and address potential discrepancies and develop agreed 23 upon solutions. Or provide a rationale for the 24 differences observed.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
132 This project is halfway through, and we 1
expect it to be completed by the end of Fiscal Year 2
2023.
3 The second project I wanted to highlight 4
in this seismic area is a new project we are just 5
starting. The use of 3D physic space grand motion 6
simulation project.
7 We are initiating a project this year to 8
address the lack of observation of grand motion data 9
to support grand motion model updates and development 10 efforts.
11 We are partnering with Lawrence Livermore 12 National Laboratory with this activity. They are 13 certainly a leader in this technical area. They have 14 done great work so far.
15 By utilizing their existing software and 16 super computers to simulate earthquake grand motions, 17 for a variety of earthquake scenarios. And this 18 project will aim to better understand a broad 19 variability we observe in earthquake grand motions.
20 And also address large uncertainties we 21 currently maintain in the established grand motion 22 models. And hopefully identify potential ways to 23 reduce them.
24 The other seismic project I want to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
133 discuss briefly is the seismic site response shack 1
Level 2 project. This project is addressing technical 2
issues that are encountered during the new reactor 3
application reviews, as well as near-term Task 4 4
reactions following the Fukushima accident and 5
reassessment of seismic hazards at the operating 6
nuclear power plant sites.
7 And seismic hazards calculations, even 8
though site response is a major component to the 9
overall seismic hazard assessment process, site 10 response calculations are conducted outside the shack 11 process that most of us quite frequently are with.
12 So this effort is a first of a kind study 13 to address the feasibility of using the shack process 14 and site response calculations as well. And I would 15 say this project has progressed very well so far and 16 we are expecting to complete the project later this 17 year.
18 Yet another project we are conducting in 19 the area of seismic is this study of paleoliquefaction 20 features in the central region and seismic zone. This 21 is a small scale but important project designed to 22 understand a little bit better, one of the key seismic 23 sources.
24 For those of you who remember the 2011 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
134 mineral Virginia earthquake that shook the 1
headquarters here. This earthquake was located in 2
this seismic zone.
3 So the research we are conducting here is 4
looking into whether or not any geological evidence 5
exist in the records, rocks, basically in this case, 6
for historical earthquakes in the region, with perhaps 7
even larger magnitudes. So that's the aim. That's 8
what we are trying to understand.
9 And the last one in the area of 10 geotechnical research we have the probabilistic 11 liquefaction model development project. This project 12 is addressing soil liquefaction assessments using 13 probabilistic approaches rather than the site 14 deterministic approaches, which we are currently 15 using.
16 This project, at the end, will help us 17 more align our probabilistic seismic hazard 18 assessments with the liquefaction assessments that we 19 conduct comes out of the seismic assessments.
20 Now I will like to switch to special focus 21 for our projects. And if you go to Slide, I believe 22 36, please.
23 The first one, as I mentioned earlier, is 24 the concrete and radiation project. In the area of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
135 radiation assisted concrete degradation project we are 1
conducted multi-threaded research activities to 2
support licensing decisions for our aging nuclear 3
power plants.
4 Our collaborators in this project are Oak 5
Ridge National Lab, Argon National Lab and University 6
of Colorado.
7 Our current research efforts in this area 8
range from documenting the state of knowledge on 9
concrete degradation due to high levels of radiation, 10 all the way to degradation of steel, concrete bond 11 strength, and its structural safety assessments.
12 Especially considering longer term operations.
13 Currently I would say we are half way 14 through to planned research activities. And so far we 15 have finalized a couple of NUREG/CRs in a RIL, as 16 shown on this slide on the left.
17 One of these NUREG/CRs listed documents 18 the state of knowledge in irradiation assisted 19 concrete degradation. The document is almost ready 20 for publication, and we expect actually to be 21 published next week on July 28th. And it will be 22 available publicly.
23 The second NUREG/CR we produced, and as 24 part of this research is also, is about computation of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
136 fluids near the concrete bio shield and reagent 1
through reinforced concrete structures.
More 2
interesting work also.
3 Currently this document is also in press 4
awaiting with publication with our office of 5
administration. And we also expect this one to be 6
published in a couple of weeks.
7 Before the accomplishment listed here, at 8
RIL, the research information letter, it's another 9
type of document that the Office of Research uses, is 10 also the result of an extensive research activity that 11 we conducted to analyze degraded concrete physical 12 properties using modeling approaches.
13 We expect this RIL to be published within 14 a few weeks as well. Basically the technical document 15 is completed but now we are going through final 16 editorial and formatting checks.
17 All these initial activities have already 18 supported the program office and their subsequent 19 license review activities. And we are obviously very 20 quite pleased about that.
21 In the remaining portions of the research 22 activities in this area we will focus on the 23 finalization of a limited radiation experiment that we 24 initiated to study degradation of concrete bond 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
137 strength and its potential safety implications.
1 As part of this project we are also 2
developing computer models to assess safety 3
significance of degraded concrete on the structural 4
support systems.
5 We plan to extent the research to 6
harvesting and analyses of irradiated concrete 7
material obtained from a decommissioned nuclear power 8
plant. That will help us support, and hopefully 9
confirm our assumptions, we use in some of the 10 modeling tools that we are developing so far.
11 In the next slide I will actually discuss 12 the harvesting efforts briefly. Can we have Slide 37 13 please.
14 Actually, we've been interesting in 15 obtaining harvested concrete samples from a
16 decommissioned nuclear power plant for a while.
17 Initially, our efforts were focused on Zorita in 18 Spain. However, through initially research we have 19 quickly identifies that Zorita's concrete material was 20 not prone to irradiation assisted concrete degradation 21 and we started looking at different alternatives.
22 And through our Staff's efforts, we have 23 identified that perhaps SONGS might be a good 24 candidate for this purpose. We have engaged with the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
138 plant owners and SDS, SONGS decommissioning solutions 1
I believe.
2 And our efforts have proven to be 3
effective. Currently we are working with Oak Ridge 4
National Lab to obtain and test samples of 5
unirradiated bio shield concrete material to better 6
understand the concrete composition and its 7
susceptibility to radiation induced damage.
8 MEMBER BALLINGER: This is Ron Ballinger, 9
again.
10 MR. SEBER: All right. Yes.
11 MEMBER BALLINGER: Are you concerned that 12 the concrete at an individual plant is more or less 13 unique that --
14 MR. SEBER: Yes.
15 MEMBER BALLINGER: Do you think you can 16 generalize the results from, say, SONGS to some other 17 plant?
18 MR. SEBER: Yes. We are going to be using 19 SONGS as one case example, of course. Like I said, we 20 tried to use Zorita and it didn't work out, for 21 exactly the same reason that you are saying. Because 22 every plant is different.
23 So we are going to look at this one as a 24 research, as a generic concept. And then when our 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
139 program office gets the licensing reviews, or 1
continues to SLRs, or we talked a little bit beyond 2
- 80. And then it's going to be based on the specific 3
type of material used for each specific plants.
4 But we are now looking for a potential bio 5
shield concrete material which will likely have 6
degraded over the years. And we want to have some 7
evidence of that. And then use those numbers in some 8
of the generical models that we do.
9 We don't solve the problem for plant-by-10 plant, but obviously our goal is to do confirmatory 11 research and attack the problem generically and have 12 sufficient details that ultimately NRC reviewers, when 13 the action comes before them, they'll be more informed 14 to take the actions.
15 MEMBER BALLINGER: But is it my impression 16 that you have determined that the radiation effect on 17 the concrete is pretty much minimal?
18 MR. SEBER: That is not the case.
19 MEMBER BALLINGER: Nope?
20 MR. SEBER: Actually, it depends on the 21 type of concrete.
22 MEMBER BALLINGER: Okay. All right.
23 Okay.
24 MR. SEBER: Yes. I mean, I can go into 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
140 detail but I don't want to cut too far into, you know, 1
if it's a silica --
2 MEMBER BALLINGER: No, no.
3 (Simultaneously speaking.)
4 MR. SEBER: -- it's a different thing.
5 It's a calcareous reach and it's a different story.
6 MEMBER BALLINGER: No, no.
7 MR. SEBER: And if it is BWR, PWR, all 8
different. So, first, the outlined documents that I 9
mentioned earlier, we listed those scenarios very 10 extensively and very detailed in those.
11 MEMBER BALLINGER: Great. Great.
12 MR. SEBER: So, we are hoping the, if 13 proven positive of course, this SONGS material. And 14 we plan to initiate a larger experiment.
15 And we are also working with EPRI and Oak 16 Ridge National Labs. And this activity, if get the 17 okay or if we pursue with the large effort, to study 18 the irradiated concrete samples, this will need to be 19 done at next level. So we are now in the earlier 20 stages of that.
21 I have one more slide. Next slide please.
22 Slide 38.
23 CHAIR SUNSERI: Dogan, can I --
24 MR. SEBER: Yes.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
141 CHAIR SUNSERI: -- I need to interrupt 1
with a point of order here. So we are coming to the 2
end of the presentations today. This is, I think, the 3
last slide.
4 In order to allow the public an 5
opportunity for comment, we're going to have to reset 6
the public phone line at this time. So I want to do 7
this in parallel with the rest of the presentation.
8 For the callers that are listening in, you 9
will soon be disconnected as we reset this line. And 10 what you need to do is to call back in.
11 So please wait until you are disconnected 12 and then immediately call back in. Once you return, 13 mute your line until you called upon for public 14 comment. Which will be just in a few minutes I 15 anticipate.
16 So
- okay, that's my public address 17 announcement. Please continue.
18 MR. SEBER: Thank you. As I said, this is 19 my last slide. I'm going to be talking about risk-20 informed performance based and seismic isolation 21 project that our branch is actively leading.
22 A couple of years ago we initiated a 23 research activity to address use of risk-informed 24 performance based approaches of seismic safety of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
142 light water reactors.
1 Recently though we switched the focus to 2
supporting advance reactors, for primarily obvious 3
reasons. And however, the methodology and research 4
results can be used for both advance and light water 5
reactors.
6 Why are we doing this? If you look at the 7
current regulatory framework for seismic design it is 8
based on what we call the safe shutdown earthquake 9
spectra. The so called SSE.
10 And the current regulatory practice, all 11 structure, systems and components important to safety 12 are designed to be fully capable of confirming their 13 safety functions at the safe shutdown grand motion 14 levels.
15 The current research, however, is looking 16 into an alternative option. That accounts for the 17 function and risk significance of each individual 18 structure, system and component.
19 In other words, the safety margins of 20 individual system, structures and components are 21 designed, or should be designed, could be designed, 22 depending on the way you want to say it, according to 23 their contribution to the system level and plant level 24 risks. We anticipate at the end this approach could 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
143 reduce potentially unnecessary conservatism built into 1
the current approach.
2 We have already published two RILs, 3
research information letters, in this area. And they 4
are publicly available.
5 We also sought initial public input at a 6
workshop we held in September 2020. As Jeremy said 7
earlier in his introduction, introductory section, 8
this is one research topic we'd like to bring before 9
the Committee, or maybe cognizant members, based on 10 what we learned earlier today.
11 And to discuss technical details more in-12 depth. And we anticipate the timing could be first 13 half of next year.
14 And separately, and lastly, we also 15 conduct research on the use of seismic isolators in 16 advance reactor designs. Our research here, which is 17 also adopted from our previous work that we did for 18 new reactors a few years back, we published three 19 NUREG/CRs, will support agency licensing decisions on 20 the use of seismic isolators and advance reactor 21 designs.
22 We are aware that industry is also 23 interested in this topic. They are developing a 24 topical report to be submitted to the program office 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
144 on the use of seismic isolators in advance reactor 1
designs.
2 Our efforts are complimentary to the 3
Industry's efforts. And we are addressing the staff 4
needs in the review and analyses of any future 5
licensing activities they might have in this area.
6 With that, I conclude my presentation.
7 And I guess I will turn over the mic to our division 8
director, Louise Lund.
9 MS. LUND: Okay. And thank you in 10 bringing it home. I'd like to thank you for the 11 opportunity to brief you today.
12 And we really have appreciated your active 13 engagement and all your questions. We are always open 14 to feedback and suggestions and these interactions 15 with you help us when it comes to producing relevant 16 high quality research products and activities.
17 In response to the question about whether 18 there is a list of standards that are endorsed by 19 regulation or regulatory guide, we've put the web link 20 for a page on the NRC's site that provides that 21 information in the Team's chat for this meeting.
22 And I also wanted to add to what Ken 23 Miller said about Reg Guide 1.9, is that we will be 24 addressing the comments coming over in the letter from 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
145 the ACRS by making some revisions as well to the 1
document. And we'll be engaging the Committee about 2
the changes.
3 And lastly, I want to acknowledge the help 4
from my Staff, Matt Homiac and Marcus Estevedo 5
(phonetic) for their incredible work to help the 6
slides tell the DE story. And, Mark, you, for helping 7
in every way possible, including turning the slides 8
for us today.
9 And for everyone that has helped us in any 10 way to get ready for today, thank you. And that 11 concludes my remarks.
12 CHAIR SUNSERI: Okay, thank you, Louise.
13 Very good. So we're going to wrap-up this meeting 14 now.
15 The sequence of events is I'm going to 16 call for public comments and then we're going to do a 17 roundtable or a call for Committee comments. And I 18 have some summary comments to make, and then we will 19 adjourn the meeting.
20 So, at this time, I call on the public 21 line. Any members of the public that wish to make a 22 statement, please state your name and do so. Thomas, 23 you may need to open the line.
24 THE OPERATOR: The public line is open.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
146 CHAIR SUNSERI: Okay. So members of the 1
public, if you wish to make a public comment, please 2
state your name and provide your comment.
3 All right, Thomas, you can close the 4
public line. And I'll just ask for the participants 5
that are on the Team chat, if anybody has any comments 6
that you want to make before we turn to the Members?
7 All right. Well, thank you all. It has 8
been a very thorough discussion today. I appreciate 9
the time that Staff put in to making this informative 10 presentation. It was very thoughtfully done and 11 consistently presented. We appreciate that.
12 Members, we will have an opportunity to 13 discuss this in greater detail at a future committee 14 briefing where we get together at the results of all 15 three of these division briefings together. And we 16 will discuss what we want to put into our letter 17 report.
18 But I took a lot of notes today, and let 19 me just kind of summarize some of the things I saw and 20 then we'll ask for your comments. But anyway, we had 21 a good discussion on capabilities and maintaining 22 technical capabilities. Particularly in light of the 23 competition for limited resources in many areas. So 24 that was good to see what's going on there.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
147 We had a long discussion today about codes 1
and standards and regulatory guide and the process for 2
maintaining those. And I'm thinking that we're going 3
to have some, probably recommendation or some language 4
about the opportunity for improvement.
5 At least the interaction between Staff and 6
the ACRS on the review of the Reg Guides. Don't know, 7
but at least we had a lot of discussion about that.
8 A good discussion on cybersecurity and the 9
things that are going there. And the new aspect of 10 this is the wireless. So we'll be interested in 11 continuing with all that.
12 And there are a number of topics that are 13 proposed as future topics, so we can do a deep dive 14 on. And that's the advance manufacturing technology, 15 material harvesting at which I strongly suggest that 16 we have some kind of informal meeting so that we get 17 the scope of that future meeting right.
18 Very interesting topic on the risk-19 informed, performance based seismic design. And a lot 20 of interest in digital twinning. And that digital 21 twinning may be another opportunity for us to have an 22 informal so that we make sure that we get the right 23 scope of any future discussion on that.
24 Okay, Members, that's, I'm sure I'm 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
148 skipping over something here. I've got four or five 1
pages of notes, but let me just go around and see, 2
I'll offer to the floor anybody who wants to make a 3
comment.
4 MEMBER HALNON: Matt, this is Greg. I 5
have a quick question, probably for Louise.
6 I didn't hear anything, and maybe I joined 7
down at the wrong time, but about the meteorology and 8
weather and climate change and how that's effecting.
9 Do you guys just rely on the Army Corps of Engineers 10 for that or do you have some experts in-house?
11 MS. LUND: The external hazards work there 12 is, it's sort of a shared responsibility between us 13 and DRA. So, that, it depends on really what specific 14 interests you have.
15 MEMBER HALNON: Okay. It was mainly about 16 the flooding and the --
17 MS. LUND: The flooding is DRA.
18 MEMBER HALNON: DRA, okay.
19 MS. LUND: Yes. So you will be hearing 20 from them soon, so sort of hang on to that question.
21 MEMBER HALNON: Yes. Thank you.
22 MS. LUND: Yes.
23 CHAIR SUNSERI: Any other Members?
24 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Hey, Matt?
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
149 MEMBER REMPE: So this is Joy.
1 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Okay.
2 MEMBER REMPE: Go ahead whoever else was 3
speaking, I think you were first.
4 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Thank you, Joy. This is 5
Walt, Matt. I would be, in the area of material 6
harvesting, whether it's reactor, vessel, components 7
or concrete, I would be interested to see to what 8
extent, that can be used to expand databases and, if 9
you will, confirmatory check on life expectancy of 10 components and service, et cetera.
11 But I would be interested to hear more 12 about any predictive modeling capability that's 13 developed as a result of that, those extensive 14 efforts. And the distinction I would make is, you can 15 take the data and make empirical curves and models and 16 then you have a simplistic model for that empirical 17 set of curves. Or you can actually try a more physics 18 based approach to developing predictive modeling based 19 on the harvesting work.
20 So I would be interested to know what 21 research is doing in that area. And it applies both 22 to materials over in the reactor engineering division 23 as well as the structural.
24 CHAIR SUNSERI: Good. Yes, that's a good 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
150 topic. Anyone else want to make a comment?
1 MEMBER REMPE: Yes, this is Joy. Yes. I 2
think in addition to the very good topics that were 3
suggested for future briefings that, and this really 4
goes more to the initial overview we had for my first 5
now, but I think we should be briefed on the progress 6
of the future focused research projects at some point 7
in the sharing.
8 And so I just wanted to add, I'm trying to 9
remember if, I'm sure we brought this up at Ray's 10 meeting, but anyway, just continuing to think about 11 that, that it is a new thing, which I think is great 12 that research has some control over their projects, 13 but I think it's something that we want to make sure 14 that we continue to follow so we're knowledgeable 15 about the progress that's being made with them.
16 CHAIR SUNSERI: Good. I wrote that down.
17 And just remind me, Joy, I think it's, I think we're 18 going to have our get together, Full Committee review 19 of this in the October time frame. Is that right?
20 MEMBER REMPE: That's the way it's 21 currently scheduled. Again, I'd like to keep to that 22 schedule, but there is some flexibility if we feel 23 that it's not possible or there is other higher 24 priorities. But that's the plan right now.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
151 CHAIR SUNSERI: Yes. No, I, it wasn't a 1
challenge, just a question. I don't have my notes in 2
front of me, so thank you.
3 All right, anybody else? Okay, well, just 4
to close then I will probably be redundant and 5
reiterate here.
6 Thank you, Louise, to you and your team 7
for a very good briefing. I think we clearly, at 8
least this met my expectations on what we were looking 9
for an will help us inform a letter report as we 10 deliberate the evaluation of the safety research, the 11 agency safety research programs.
12 So thank you all, to, Lee, your staff.
13 And thank you to our staff for putting together the 14 Team's meeting and all the support we got in 15 preparation for this. And thank you to the Members 16 for the good interaction during the presentations 17 today.
18 So with nothing else to say, I will just 19 close by, I wish everyone a good weekend, have a 20 happy, safe and relaxing weekend. The meeting is 21 adjourned.
22 MS. LUND: Thank you.
23 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 24 off the record at 5:47 p.m.)
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards Biennial Review Louise Lund Director, Division of Engineering Office of Nuclear Regulatory Research
Key Messages B e t h e t e c h n o l o g y a n d e n g i n e e r i n g h u b t o h e l p e n a b l e t h e a g e n c y t o b e c o m e a m o d e r n, r i s k - i n f o r m e d r e g u l a t o r Our Vision B e r e a d y f o r f u t u r e t e c h n o l o g i e s Our Objectives A d v a n c e r e g u l a t o r y t e c h n i c a l k n o w l e d g e B u i l d a n d e n h a n c e s t a f f c a p a c i t y a n d c o m p e t e n c i e s i n e m e r g e n t t e c h n i c a l a r e a s 2
Regulatory Guide and Programs Management Branch (RGPMB)
Reactor Engineering Branch (REB)
Materials Engineering Branch (MEB)
Instrumentation, Controls, and Electrical Engineering Branch (ICEEB)
Structural, Geotechnical, and Seismic Engineering Branch (SGSEB)
Division of Engineering 3
Progress
D E d r i v e s t o c o m p l e t e r e s e a r c h a c t i v i t i e s t h a t h a v e f u l f i l l e d t h e i r r e g u l a t o r y p u r p o s e 34 REGULATORY GUIDES ISSUED 24 Regulatory Guide Periodic Reviews 3
Generic Issues Closed 12 future focused research projects launched Codes & Standards Endorsed 19 11 R e s e a r c h I n f o r m a t i o n L e t t e r s P u b l i s h e d 14 NUREGs Published 67 Technical Letter Reports S e m i n a r s a n d W o r k s h o p s 26 4
5 Global Outreach Collaborations
Programs Overview and Future ACRS Engagement Jeremy Bowen Deputy Director, Division of Engineering Office of Nuclear Regulatory Research
23 million FY22 FTE and contracts Programs Overview Materials Performance 49%
Instrumentation & Controls 14%
Structural & Geotechnical 12%
External Hazards 9%
Electrical 7%
Guidance & Infrastructure 9%
7
Future ACRS Engagement Advanced Manufacturing Technologies Digital Twins Material Harvesting Risk-Informed Performance-Based Seismic Design 8
Regulatory Guide and Programs Management Branch Meraj Rahimi
About RGPMB Functional Areas RGPMB manages regulatory guides, NRC participation in the endorsement of voluntary consensus codes and standards, Generic Issues and Future Focused Research programs
Manage NRCs regulatory guide (RG) process, including review and issuance of RGs for public comment to final publication REGULATORY GUIDES
Coordinate activities in support of the NRCs Generic Issues Program mandated under Energy Reorganization Act of 1974 and 10 CFR 1.45 GENERIC ISSUES
Facilitate the NRC staffs participation in the development and use of codes and standards CODES & STANDARDS
The FFR program provides a vehicle to position the NRC to be ready for future, state-of-the-art technologies and their potential regulatory impacts FUTURE FOCUSED RESEARCH 10 Regulatory Guide and Programs Management Branch
Regulatory Guides Provide up-to-date guidance to licensees and applicants for more effective and efficient licensing reviews and decisions 34 R G s I s s u e d P e r i o d i c R e v i e w s A C R S P r e s e n t a t i o n s 24 13 Future Direction C o n t i n u o u s P r o c e s s I m p r o v e m e n t I m p r o v e d P r o c e s s
( 6 - 1 1 m o n t h s t o i s s u e f i n a l R G )
Accomplishments 11 Regulatory Guide and Programs Management Branch
Generic Issues Identify significant generic technical issues requiring NRC response 3
G e n e r i c I s s u e s C l o s e d R e v i s e d M D 6. 4 a n d T E C - 0 0 2 Future Direction Accomplishments 12 C o m p l e t e A s s e s s m e n t o f H E A F I n v o l v i n g A l u m i n u m U p d a t e N U R E G - 0 9 3 3 E v a l u a t e F u r t h e r P r o c e s s S t r e a m l i n i n g 2
Regulatory Guide and Programs Management Branch
Codes and Standards Enhance the effectiveness and efficiency of the regulatory process by leveraging external resources, experience, and consensus 19 E n d o r s e d E n d o r s e m e n t s I n P r o g r e s s 16 N R C S t a n d a r d s E x e c u t i v e P r o g r a m M a n a g e r S D O C o o r d i n a t o r s N R C R e p r e s e n t a t i v e s S t a n d a r d s S t e e r i n g C o m m i t t e e s 13 Roles and Responsibilities Accomplishments Regulatory Guide and Programs Management Branch
Future Focused Research 14 Regulatory Guide and Programs Management Branch Provide actionable insights into technical or regulatory issues that relate to NRCs mission and open new areas of foundational knowledge on key topics 12 N e w P r o j e c t s I n i t i a t e d i n F Y 2 0 a n d F Y 2 1 Accomplishments Future Direction C o n s i d e r F a r -
R e a c h i n g R e s e a r c h To p i c s B u i l d R e p o s i t o r y f o r t h e L a t e s t I n f o r m a t i o n o n R e s e a r c h e d To p i c s
Reactor Engineering Branch Raj Iyengar
Reactor Engineering Branch About REB Functional Areas REB plans and executes programs for analytic and experimental research to develop the technical bases, methods, and tools for advanced technology applications, influencing safety of operating and advanced reactors and other facilities regulated by the NRC
High temperature materials & component performance
Molten salt reactor fuel-cycle
Design-specific considerations ADVANCED REACTORS
Tools for component performance -
probabilistic, finite element analyses
ANLWR environments
Data-driven modeling MODELING &
SIMULATION
Digital twins
Advanced sensors
Machine learning applications ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY
standards
10 CFR 50.55a regulatory guide code case rulemaking
Licensing support LICENSING &
REGULATORY SUPPORT 16
Reactor Engineering Branch
Extremely Low Probability of Rupture Code
Fracture Analysis of Vessels - Probabilistic Code (FAVPRO)
High Energy Line Break Methodology
Spent Fuel Canister Performance and Risk Assessment ADVANCED REACTORS
Code Endorsements - ASME Section III, Div. 5, & Section XI, Reliability and Integrity Management
Digital Twins MODELING & SIMULATION ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY
ASME Codes and Standards Participation (Section III & XI)
Regulatory Guide and Rulemaking Support for Endorsing ASME Code Cases
Probabilistic Fracture Mechanics - Regulatory Guide & Technical Basis
Radiation Embrittlement Archive Project (REAP) Database
RESbot LICENSING &
REGULATORY SUPPORT
Advanced Sensors
Creep-Fatigue Assessment Tool
Molten Salt Reactors - Performance
Graphite Research 17 Major Projects
Reactor Engineering Branch Molten Salt Reactors Identify technical issues and regulatory needs for materials compatibility, electrochemistry, fuel cycle (transportation and waste storage), salt processing, and purity 10 Te c h n i c a l R e p o r t s Accomplishments 2
P u b l i c W o r k s h o p s 2
C o d e E n d o r s e m e n t s Future Direction M o l t e n S a l t C h e m i s t r y R e l i a b i l i t y &
R i s k R e d u c t i o n M S R F u e l C y c l e 18
Reactor Engineering Branch Digital Twins Develop regulatory infrastructure to enable safe operation of digital twins and potential use of digital twins to enhance regulatory processes Accomplishments Future Direction 19 1
Te c h n i c a l R e p o r t 5
S e m i n a r s 2
W o r k s h o p s P r o j e c t P l a n W o r k s h o p s / T r a i n i n g S t a t e o f Te c h n o l o g y
Materials Engineering Branch Steve Ruffin
Materials Engineering Branch Functional Areas MEB plans, coordinates, and manages the development and deterministic analysis of data to characterize the causes and effects of corrosion and environmentally-assisted cracking on the structures and components of nuclear plant systems
Characterize the causes and effects of materials degradation in nuclear plant systems for long-term operation MATERIALS DEGRADATION NONDESTRUCTIVE EXAMINATION ADVANCED MANUFACTURING
Evaluate the reliability of nondestructive examination methods
Evaluate advanced manufacturing technologies
Provide technical support for licensing actions, oversight support, and ASME codes and standards 21 LICENSING &
REGULATORY SUPPORT About MEB
Materials Engineering Branch Major Projects Irradiation-Assisted Degradation of Reactor Pressure Vessel Internals Harvesting PWSCC Materials Testing MATERIALS DEGRADATION NONDESTRUCTIVE EXAMINATION ADVANCED MANUFACTURING Steam Generator Tube Inspection and Integrity Issues Reliability of Nondestructive Examinations Advanced Manufacturing Techniques ASME Codes and Standards Support Regulatory Guide and Rulemaking Support Licensing Activities and Oversight Support LICENSING &
REGULATORY SUPPORT 22
Materials Engineering Branch Advanced Manufacturing Technologies Develop technology-specific guidance to prepare the NRC staff for future reviews of advanced manufacturing applications for nuclear power plants Accomplishments 5
P r i m a r y Te c h n o l o g i e s 1
P u b l i c W o r k s h o p 5
S e m i n a r s Future Direction Te c h n i c a l P r e p a r e d n e s s R e g u l a t o r y P r e p a r e d n e s s C o m m u n i c a t i o n s
& K n o w l e d g e M a n a g e m e n t 23
Materials Engineering Branch Materials Harvesting Harvest metals, concrete, and electrical components to inform NRC decisions for assessment and aging management to support long term operation Future Direction E x p e r i m e n t a l Te s t i n g
> C o o p e r a t i v e
> I n d e p e n d e n t Te c h n i c a l R e p o r t s E x p e r i m e n t a l Te s t i n g
> N E A S M I L E
> N E A F I D E S C o o p e r a t i v e R e s e a r c h I n f o r m e d b y H a r v e s t i n g P r i o r i t i e s 24 Accomplishments
Instrumentation, Controls, and Electrical Engineering Branch Christopher Cook
Instrumentation, Controls, and Electrical Engineering Branch About ICEEB Functional Areas ICEEB develops and implements a broad research program in the areas of DI&C, cybersecurity, cables &
electrical aging, and offsite & onsite power that supports regulatory review and oversight of safety-and security-related systems and components
Enabling modernization &
safety-related review of DI&C systems and components, integrated circuits, safety-related design & application of software & hardware, and safety-related communication technologies Instrumentation &
Controls Cables & Equipment and Offsite & Onsite Power
Electrical equipment qualification and aging, offsite power sources, onsite electrical power distribution systems, and emergency power supplies Cybersecurity
Growing skills to evaluate current and future security-related review and oversite of critical digital assets. Includes evaluating the security-related review of data transfer and communication technologies, including wireless 26
Instrumentation, Controls, and Electrical Engineering Branch Major Projects Embedded Digital Devices and Emerging Technologies: NUREG/CR-7273 Common-Cause Failure in DI&C Systems: Technical Basis and Recommendations Guidance Associated with Identification and Control of Hazards for Programmable Digital Devices Training on EPRIs Digital Engineering Framework (DEG, HAZCADS, etc.)
Attack Surface for Cybersecurity Monitoring and Oversight Licensee Network Replica for Cybersecurity Training Wireless Communication Technologies (Safety & Security)
Cybersecurity Expert Seminars Long-Term Operation: Electrical Cable Condition-Monitoring Methods Regulatory Guidance using IEEE and IEC Consensus Codes and Standards Instrumentation
& Controls Cables & Equipment and Offsite & Onsite Power Cybersecurity 27
Instrumentation, Controls, and Electrical Engineering Branch Cybersecurity Attack Surface:
Characterization & Tools for Cybersecurity Monitoring and Oversight Feasibility of a Licensee Network Replica for Training 28 Cybersecurity
Instrumentation, Controls, and Electrical Engineering Branch Advancement of Wireless as an Enabling Technology NRR NSIR S i g n a l Q u a l i t y F i d e l i t y D a t a I n t e g r i t y A v a i l a b i l i t y A t t a c k S u r f a c e C h a n g e s U n a n t i c i p a t e d A c t i o n /
I n t e r a c t i o n Safety Focus >
Impacts to Safety-Related
& Important-to-Safety Systems Security Focus >
Impacts to Critical Digital Assets 29 Cybersecurity
Electrical Engineering Team Kenneth Miller
Electrical Engineering Team Electrical Cable Condition-Monitoring Methods Enhance guidance for assessment and aging management of cables to support long-term operations and facilitate the review of industry guidance for managing aging of cables in submerged environments Future Direction H a r v e s t N a t u r a l l y A g e d M a t e r i a l s f r o m R i n g h a l s P l a n t R e p o r t o n t h e N I S T C o n d i t i o n M o n i t o r i n g P r o j e c t P e r f o r m L O C A Te s t o n N I S T A g e d C a b l e T h e r m a l a n d R a d i a t i o n A g i n g a n d C o n d i t i o n M o n i t o r i n g Te s t i n g o f C a b l e S a m p l e s Accomplishments S t a t i s t i c a l A n a l y s i s o f Ta n D e l t a A p p r o a c h t o M a n a g e C a b l e s i n S u b m e r g e d E n v i r o n m e n t s 31
Electrical Engineering Team Regulatory Guidance Using IEEE and IEC Consensus Codes and Standards Update guidance based on current standards from IEEE and IEC IEEE 387-2017 Regulatory Guide 1.9 Revision Draft Guide IEC/IEEE 60780-323 IEEE 741-2017 Regulatory Guide 1.89 Revision 32
Structural, Geotechnical, and Seismic Engineering Branch Dogan Seber
About SGSEB Functional Areas SGSEB assesses the structural performance of SSCs; collects and analyzes data related to seismic hazard and seismic performance of structures; develops and applies seismic design analysis methods and guidance for geotechnical and structural design elements; develops the technical bases to resolve structural engineering issues associated with safety and security assessments
Research on nuclear power plant structural integrity, potential degradation mechanisms, and design and construction issues STRUCTURES SEISMIC GEOTECHNICAL
Research on seismic hazard analyses for operating and new reactor applications
Research on soil and foundation conditions 34 Structural, Geotechnical, and Seismic Engineering Branch
Major Projects Seismic Source Characterization and GMM Updates Use of 3D physics-based ground motion simulations to support GMM development efforts Seismic Site Response - SSHAC Level 2 Paleoliquefaction Studies in the Central Virginia Seismic Zone STRUCTURES Irradiation-Assisted Concrete Degradation Harvesting of irradiated concrete material Prestressed Concrete Containment Aging / VERCORS Alkali Silica Reaction Research (Closed)
Risk-Informed, Performance-Based Seismic Safety and Seismic Isolation for Advanced Reactors Probabilistic Liquefaction Model Development SEISMIC GEOTECHNICAL 35 Structural, Geotechnical, and Seismic Engineering Branch
Irradiation-Assisted Concrete Degradation Study the current state of knowledge in irradiation-assisted concrete degradation and augment the knowledge through both limited experiments and computer-based simulations to support the development of technical bases for future licensing decisions Future Direction D e v e l o p M o d e l s B a s e d o n I r r a d i a t i o n Te s t R e s u l t s A s s e s s S t r u c t u r a l I n t e g r i t y U s i n g G e n e r i c P l a n t M o d e l s H a r v e s t I r r a d i a t e d C o n c r e t e S a m p l e s F r o m D e c o m m i s s i o n e d P l a n t s 36 Accomplishments 2
N U R E G / C R s 1
R e s e a r c h I n f o r m a t i o n L e t t e r Structural, Geotechnical, and Seismic Engineering Branch
Harvesting Irradiated Concrete Material Identify a suitable decommissioned plant to collect irradiated concrete samples 37 Future Direction E s t a b l i s h L a r g e r C o l l a b o r a t i v e R e s e a r c h E f f o r t t o G a t h e r I r r a d i a t e d C o n c r e t e S a m p l e s a n d A n a l y z e L e v e l o f D e g r a d a t i o n Accomplishments P i l o t E f f o r t t o A n a l y z e U n i r r a d i a t e d S a m p l e s f r o m S O N G S P r i m a r y B i o s h i e l d C o n c r e t e a n d I t s S u s c e p t i b i l i t y t o I r r a d i a t i o n - A s s i s t e d D e g r a d a t i o n Structural, Geotechnical, and Seismic Engineering Branch
Risk Informed Performance Based Seismic Safety and Seismic Isolation for Advanced Reactors Develop technology-inclusive guidance on RIPB seismic design approach and adopting seismic isolation technologies to supporting applications for advanced non-light water reactors 38 Future Direction D e v e l o p R e a d i l y I m p l e m e n t e d R e g u l a t o r y P o s i t i o n s f o r A p p l i c a t i o n o f t h e R I P B S e i s m i c D e s i g n A p p r o a c h Accomplishments 2
1 P u b l i c W o r k s h o p R e s e a r c h I n f o r m a t i o n L e t t e r S u p p o r t f o r 1 0 C F R P a r t 5 3 L a n g u a g e D e v e l o p m e n t Structural, Geotechnical, and Seismic Engineering Branch
Researching Tomorrows Engineering Technologies, Today.
39
QUESTIONS?
40
BACK-UP SLIDES
Future Focused Research Projects Regulatory Guide and Programs Management Branch
- 1. Digital Twins - Regulatory Viability
- 2. Apply the Licensing Modernization Project Methodology on an Operating Reactor
- 3. Dynamic Probabilistic Risk Assessment Study
- 4. Investigate Use of STAMP (Systems Theoretic Accident Model and Processes) for Nuclear Safety System Design and Regulation
- 5. Automation Tool Mapping
- 6. TRACE Modernization
- 7. Can I Pet My Pets??? - A Dosimetry Risk Analysis for Veterinary Use of Radiopharmaceuticals
- 8. Drones and Virtual Reality Tools to Analyze Radiological Surveys in Decommissioning
- 9. Pilot: Assessment of Model Based Software Engineering Processes in a Regulatory Review Context for Digital Instrumentation and Control of Existing Nuclear Power Plants
- 10. Key Attributes for Remote Operation of Nuclear Power Plants
- 11. RESbot - A Web-based Bot to Aid NRC Researchers
- 12. High Entropy Alloys 42
LIST OF ACRONYMS ACRS Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards ANLWR Advanced Non-light Water Reactor ASME American Society of Mechanical Engineers BPVC Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code CFR Code of Federal Regulations DE Division of Engineering DEG Double-Ended Guillotine DI&C Digital Instrumentation and Control EPRI Electric Power Research Institute FFR Future Focused Research FIDES Framework for Irradiation Experiments GMM Ground Motion Model HAZCADS Hazards and Consequences Analysis for Digital Systems HEAF High Energy Arc Fault ICEEB Instrumentation, Controls, and Electrical Engineering Branch IEC International Electrotechnical Commission IEEE Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers LOCA Loss-of-Coolant Accident MD Management Directive MEB Materials Engineering Branch MSR Molten Salt Reactor NEA Nuclear Energy Agency NIST National Institute of Standards and Technology NPP Nuclear Power Plant NRC Nuclear Regulatory Commission NRR Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation NSIR Office of Nuclear Security and Incident Response PWSCC Primary Water Stress Corrosion Cracking REAP Radiation Embrittlement Archive Project REB Reactor Engineering Branch RES Office of Nuclear Regulatory Research RG Regulatory Guide RGPMB Regulatory Guide and Programs Management Branch RIL Research Information Letter RIPB Risk-Informed and Performance-Based SDO Standards Development Organizations SGSEB Structural, Geotechnical, and Seismic Engineering Branch SMILE Studsvik Material Integrity Life Extension SONGS San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station SSCs Structures, Systems, and Components SSHAC Senior Seismic Hazard Analysis Committee VERCORS VErification Réaliste du COnfinement des RéacteurS 43