ML20217C914

Transcript of 99th ACNW Meeting on 980325 in Rockville,Md.Pp 452-475.Certificate Encl

ML20217C914
Person / Time
Issue date:	03/25/1998
From:	NRC ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON NUCLEAR WASTE (ACNW)
To:
References
NACNUCLE-T-0121, NACNUCLE-T-121, NUDOCS 9803270229
Download: ML20217C914 (25)

Text

..' .

.u . ,

., ..: u s. ,,. :.; .r,,,: ..: .. ,... .. ,. . A,.

,. .: . .. , ...n , ,

, . .. .: ..y:: :.:4.. ,... t.,:. ,. ,u .. ...;vt .. n. : . .~ ; w...

. :;... .. ,e.. ..

, .:: ,.y

... :. , . . ! w. ..r .. ..:.y..,, . < . ,;u 9~. s

- . ~i , .: ,: . . , .

.

; Q .:  ? .. .... ~;.;;q: . . , ,3 .  :.., . . .

,0.,p , .

iq.r.~ '.:l: .e. "..:,.g . p \,9 ^ -

. , . .; . . . .,t.

. ..' ( :~ ' ~.* * . :. :.:. . ; ; ,, .. Q: ,;, : ? if . -

.p ' . ' , <,l l ,:l;':,., . . . e* '..:,,Pp;i<% p.l:y, M -n

- e *, .ql: - . . ~ s. .:@tO.' ( .~, '1 *.~; W : :.Q

,, . . ' i: N::,4:% lv 'i .14,%' * .

' hJ ' h i.

: b, ,11 .

~; ,

.. [. .,

f+ - f, ; ,

lf, Yi Ed .,$.'

. Y...e.,

. ,. i , ..-U Y,h.:$ i

• l%f. Di Df:<$.? . .. . .Nh.: ... . 2: . .,., . .&

I L ., h.',.N'. N., ,Y,. .c . c. ..'.,..! Y.,.h ,: . l N. $ .? l r

,t . g... . . . . . , ...s,

',':I" 2e , v. =..

v m

. . *. .. n.

.,.4 . ..

. % ,: .1

< e

6. y Y.l(':N.)j/;,Q>/

.t

,s f ,fa;b.Q **p.p . f,*

• Q,, a.  :(9;W:Q'.4N,*W..

8,,.,,. .

F.2 t * ,* ;. y >o. ,.,

.t,). , . Ph.'::Tl;;'$y ",Y'.- ,y* , af, , <* *

.,: y f..L,W ..y id's y :,.A, , '

• - . , of ,,  ; -

u?". c s ,#!,: : st I6 s

,: 6. -

v%  % . . ' . t. i.-d - -

. n ,#9.~.- ./F ,f.

v9 L. .s- . g+,. y, .,%s9 es .'. 6 ./. n, < . *

., c. . . . .s.. , c

. .,, 3 , .,. g>s,:y:e ,:

r, e ss .i

..up. . ay . .f.,in n.n:,.J ., 3, i g . ,

,u ,4., . ..e..,a,... - , .+., ; .:> .o 8., .;:

< ,y + e~, .. .,: . . .

,2,., .. .. ;s. . m

, [ :,, ' .y+ r,. :: y, r

l ** ,y !:' * .k bl,

,,*.~t s vf.l," .~.

l ?.' ,> :. w . t .a : . ; : m ' .: ,y y;.~. .:.. :* ;; 'll '.;.y~ . - {

'W n.Q : . .,: , j[.

.;, ,~ y .iA ,4 l ' j' . ' u: >':  !

" f. :,'G, r: M;" 4' ;;.;:'s ,< ;,;;; J ' i ' '.' ?.,,y' . ' . ;:.: ;; .::.;",:.[ .'.. , ; s. ,:,r ,

c &*: . ..'(

i;f g ': . p s ,.  : ,,4. . "m .

: V,-a. .  ; '. ~- -

..r...

9 . .4.0 .

. T*

.4 y.,,.

. . v.

,.~..,,

.<..,~ *

.y

^*'.e*:" . ,if

'% y .*gy.*. A ' <. : '/J g ',,

i *".- 'v y .l', ; , l'"

• ,,;';..s-..: g... *,, -,., 4 I, ,,,..,., ..,,jr'g .y (. ,1 : , , ; . '. f

.'. 4. ' ' , , . ', , ;. ..r_g-

.^,;,' .o .i,f

• - *l* ',,.f* ;,,y~** , ,, . g1 , e t ,2 - y, p. l:aa, i.{ 3, /s **yI..'. ,. i' .,, . s',

\ r. l, ... .8 , to ., - ;:. r s ), n

, .s , ~,

. ' .n ,, . p,,.*. f 2 *; .j:,s., . ;.. ,, u *, f . ..,,

<',~.!

, ,t;~pl6 _q, . _,,,, ,.. , - , , . ,,

.'.o.-;g ._,, -5. ' .).., ,,e . f;,,,,, . ,,

,p . . g.',. :g . ' , '.-' ' " .

, , . b:

• ' .,- *) 7... -

,n 4 -

M,. < a .u' 1.'

'l .

. :v :< . " 4; . .. .

'~.Q,.f

'e' s,

(,..;Vq' 4

. a

.'; , . $. , i , .

5

.. . .j

,q,'

' ' ' ..'.,':i.., ... " . , -

g, -, r,' ,.z.'

• {

,.9 w

... 4,,, 5 ?. ' ~. <,,g. ,if.b. [.<\ j ,:8~' -. :y. jf' , *I,.'4 ,;r, s.

k .. ., .j : ,4 '. r... . l }l .. 4. . , . ' . . .

.a

.' 4 ;;

,.*'.1..'s ' ,3'.l 'd ' ' e 4i,,'..

s

- . ' . . ; *; f.s.:' . &, ~, ,' .. ..,',.g?.,~... ,',:' .. ;. .f;a.},.;;m-:,

i . ., *>, :-

',,, ,.? ,'.'%;;;  :;;;,, ~. .;, .?,?.l  : . . .' m :.A.s. %,,. :q y, - '.. "4 .n . ~. , .

. ~,;, ,

s.. . s. .<%. , . <...

n.,,,,.

. . ...t .. . < ,<r a %. . ..:,,.f.......4,.

,..,s,~G4

,e *.,

p ...

. . .' ., . s,, ,

4

. . ,,. . 4, >  :: .

.. .< ;,!,a 1:'$, . . . :s :m,..:,

+e., .

a,. A r.M. *1 r,>,.< .,

-; - - .- e r<

.. . - \~.

.,t :- . * .

y , s ,>.t ... , &. , .:' : -;>* .s ,3 '..'t* 1,O. ;;. 4"';* < y; ,,, . . .. , . :qi. , . ' . , ,i . ' . . - ' <*- *. < < , ' .. -

, :, e i,Y, y. .- * , <;. .~Ngs ..:*..'..',.=yy*...'.'...  :. . *s.- ',

- .:...- 4

.a  : . .

.u . . r'.,

.u ,. u :5 '. << . . . . . . . . , . . ,r,,.

. ,. . - - > ~ >

<.A.' + *$ ,. '. - 4,,.", L' - '

~

$) . .  ;. l ~ "s

l.

. ".

:. .o.. '. ,4 .. . * , .

a, ,,.'%. .% , ,; * < . ' . , '%'; p ' .  ; V. . 's . . . , ,.~  ; . a: '..

i .. u n 9,.. .T. ' ., [. . , :

.;, :: , , . .i , . , , . ~ . ,  :~

c,, . . .., : ,% .e . ...g,. 1...

, w -- , . .. .-s...

e,' . z, v;'  :. . s .- s

. .m , ,,. . .,s~  ;.

~. . ,c-ey , g,,: ':~~ .  :

r.

, c. o . .: : >. , .' . , ..2 . . . , ,!. .g.. , .

. < .<;, -g a . . :ge. %n .,'i,- . s s*~, ',i, . *L ., * -

g - ' .

o:..* . .e

> . , -...p . -:,' %- , , . * . '4 ; ,*. -Q <

< ~ , ,

• l-1,r: <' .T Y ., .. *. Y: r. y;. n,v. 2:', . ;f(ss -

.. , . . . , -' *

• f :: .;;, -,. . , , ..

.j,,' ,g 3.: ' .

' , ; p. . . ' ~ g <:

.'. / te '

';,L,. . l9 , [ll , (; a ~.s ' l,)',.f;

. /'. ..,'I. 'v ,yls.*tl; < ' \ e.,  ;,s j. ,

• s.\ . w ' ' ',3 2 l*

..,:~,'...# .. *. . q, , ', ; . *

. - , .-  ;. -

.g. ,, i . ; f. v 's e ,,**h,a .; y L, ef ,'e ,'3 .';.4 9.OT . ., s), . : 't ,.,, ./...,.'.,@

A ',' ', ' :,st,. . ' '

,  ; .u. * >

..  ; ,  ;,t ,,',' 1:*)+24 s, , . ~ . ?,

m. *# .., , * :-

. .,.: a g

' . . . -f . k ****y .e - . f* .

., . L' ' ,l', ,

../

w *.,#*

.,,r.q', ** ... :. t8 1

• ", *, ':,-. ,?,: ., .' 2,.

/; :%y.- ..,.  ;- ,. .,,. ' .. ~s.d ,*. ..u...,.:>< <. d ': ' ? ,< '.p i. . ' % ,":.. ' .: -.s

. '. < t ., ' ; *..;' .g , . -* - f l.pn . . , , .a. A. Y .~,.'.  ;. .. ,

g.Q:' .. .L. l' . ,. y *\

..r ., . ,.. '!..... i . ., ' < ...

' s ,g \; . '  %' .' > , . ' t 'a :s , : ly. .~.

+

,: . . ;~ *e

, . c. . .; ' ' ~ ~ht ~r,, .'tv% .%...**<  %: : ' , ,. . - :. ' , . . .

. ..'r' .

u 1- .,. ,

't# [ 4

'.,r,8..' *.

'. * .'. l

• , ,l

• P,* *f b

,. s. .:>;,' 'u: .'..

7: ':+ g

.;kb- , ,

. , eu,,s

,. . .yn.. :. ,. o . , ,; . .i.l- '

6 '

e.e*'"t'.,-

• n. s.. .%. .f *.:s.,

• ::y l".. . .*  ; W'

v: *bst,Q.L ::~s.' *.:- ':.' , ;

. .  ::; . ...y e '.

' 2

. . , 4;; ?: ..

• 6 : e .rg . . .

,.,; r. ,l*ef:,.&.. & , L r. b*-4,Q'. : a -: ,. ,%

. ,iS, l, ?, ':};.*!.

.. -p.  ; c J.

lc a%n.. $;l . $.'.

s

-f:.'.,"';..,.......,*;...,,e, f. ; .y/ ., .

. . , a ..

• *Q,,f;a.:p,,,

• , W r.* .fn '. .,',.,.:r a**y  ; .,.

'h...1.:' . . -

, c. . ,,r. ;, . . * :.

l , '. :; .g t,

1 .,ea

.. s ; . '3 y -* * , .*'. .,lJ,,,

,).5:'[i.a

. ..*:. a. .. ': : +*.y.e r.

,

e , sn.t),g.,; -: . . ". i.,i.. .,.w..

".,,.q,:.'..s.-

. . .3..,

, .i .t:; Q '4. . i . R,:

r - . . y L. ;

tis o q a .>; g- .

. f- ,;<.

N

},4. e u sm,. . . ,

.?  :. : . ):: .'.

- ; , ,}- .

<;n.y;:: -r . f,hil.'f.

c. 4::. ~. ; .;. :~. . .~  :. ': -

gy. :

• m. b;;. w

.;s.; c

y; ~. Q:,+.: s , s.".;:; * ' y :...h y tT aQ.. ,,,\p:.c. . . :. Y

. .apm v. W. :;. r%'

. .4 vA;.:%:. >.f:.

~. ~:;~ >:.

> ei::.  :.

. ;. n ,4'::<; .: ua . ~.m. .q'*Vpfxn&,%,%e.

.o m. , 4 e e

. :t+ .:,;%.Wn...; -.

- ,.j . ,

<.h':hji:t p h.:$m .k.; Y. ;b, . . ;;h;.k.$ l$

• f.!. Sk h$.

~.&.v.4y$$hl:

i h? yw.W &%& k;a.h.h.,'JM.;l?8 %w$n,

.'l.h:hk < h&,na&j'hl,?: v hN,'f.6 2$:k,:k.m w Q

~

Ykhk

$$ y . :

x. ~, ;::.; p pA.

y

- . =..,,:. y. , : #.:p . w. L :a. . c y. ,. . , e w .,e.,v

n. . c., . , , ,: s p -:uy . n . . ~. w.;;

. c, .,: n,,.: p. :.. :W:s, e . iw.:

u .. e. c

,. .w  : y:m . . w..

&, ~f::,;,:t'y;' .f.q"...C': Q.g.sj .R.Q)' 9:c &w.m.  :,Q;5  :;

?'d.9~g. &e{n.

.: . t. ' 3,a. , .

':Q...v,..z:w..:qijp Q .9 ),' :p% h ~_..h.y'y g.

& 4: A.f.::q,' ':k.'.n pd. .::"',,.5 .;:k C'];1 '.;.' .? 9.;yld. q 't;. -

Z.. -;.. y ;;#-

w.ame umemw

h emmh www 3

W w w:m w % m m .a w.qa.g f,e ypp gh a &hn n@m,y.e g9y &aq~&mwe pm.Y m Yh m.n..e.n:, x  :

e%

.w a m a ummmmmungxwn Y..u.whh

. .:.mm. ,3. , ..m.

.e  ;

T.s

.  : .: ca. ,. c. .m.,

> . - g;g g . e. g.

m.. ,.

an. e.n.. u.s.es,..

y . i,  :

... 6

.s. .v .

• u .sgp.*.,

s. . . ..pp w ..

e .g. m. .m ..: m.y,.:

3,../z. .3, .. g . +,

e. :na. .

< = S.,. . , : :,, .

h. ,. ' .

. i. *) . '. , : ' . ,.

a; . .? . : <

.u:: . . . s, ...

. . ;..].'.j..;.,4)i .

:}u, hl.q:f  ;;::((.d.}:;(:

. . c.  :

.. .....:.:... .; .. ; ;f;:.

e . :,'.,;.f, 4..;.nf .::q .,,. ;.n,..;O.f.

(.. . . r . .'y.. 4:. .:. < : . . qs %

f. e., .,

:., i :p.; :9l.u  :.::

.,.prir

' w*Q;. s e..y.);. C <,:%.

. t:.:Qq V!:{if}:_v  :.,-Q.y  :, , nn .t.:;a .f_ .: };_Qw.:: Q. .:J:i:q;' .

..u-O.;t w

n 1,.., , .: . w;,.,- ,.

a,e +

.c,., ,

c ~., . :. .c. 4 . . a. e ; w jv. ... .c.s t{Qu.

, . .+;. w.r..,r:,.,,  :;. n . . . , - ..:,,

v

.. 6. ::

5

• ,5 '

~. ' . r- 5

I ..'< ' 5 *

5. / .f ,[

. . z :. . . .r. .... .

.; .g - ., <: 9. : ,;:;;;:,.: . . : ;..

...: , y L.

y;.

. q:q;y:.:,:g;)::.:n.

.  ; ,j t ;';

• g,p,.).~)},;p ,.7 .:.

...:.<....,m..y.,.. ..

c.... . ;i.;. y . t.

. . . 1 f. . : . . = :: ~. :. . .;~% _.9.y ._;w;.. . ),1:~%..  : v; y.c; . .;,:.. .. i...t, >.s.:. . m . , ;4 ,.:. .:m. e:. : .- 3 t .1. , .. .~ n.w.: p:y .:  :.p:

.e.m.c . . . . . c. x,,, . y,,.y:

. .w c ae .

. _  :...y , n ::.... . .. .

. . . ., ,v.. ;u....

e 8:1. . n .fw. .,c v...p:~t.:.

.a.:...,a n.,:; ~m.:o .w. ... .-.1 :. . . :1 .a.p~ 1.Q,.y

.:4. , : . ..m' . . e, ;:.. . ...m. m +. , M. ...c..... r.t., ~ ,,:n. , y. ,:...-,,. ;.! .:s O.  ;., : . , . -

.G c. e.t . . r , .

. .:n

. . . .: . . n ., .:: .. - . .

Q.,k . o : s. .^ f lL 4.)l ; ,; l 3:n.,': -..f'. .....;. ,' : . k, '. '. ' . ,, f,. .:

k';f* .( 9.b. ..,h:l .. v. :y?,. $

. . . : :~

' ^

.. ;

1 *.'. ,'  :'.~. ' '.b.

s6 .h_$.

'j .

~ . u .;. g . w s: 7 . ;:. . y ;.;. e : :... y.:. a w y .: :.. , a.  : ... ._. . . .

. . , .e :tr. m. . < ::.: s, .: ~. .: . v . . . :. ; .. .:. u.r .

. 6 y e.

• m . , -

ORG X A_

(g OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON NUCLEAR WASTE ACNW OFFICE COPY- RETAIN FOR THE LIFE OF THE COMMITTEE

Title:

99TII ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON NUCLEAR WASTE (ACNW) MEETING Docket No.:

TR08 (ACNW)

RETURN ORIGINAL TO BJWHITE, ACRS T-2E26 Work Order No.: ASIl-300-208 415-7130 O THANKS!

4

.,. . v J . 9 0/

LOCATION: Rocktitle, Maryland DATE: Wednesday,Marcli 25,1998 PAGES: 452 - 475 ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

p 1250 I Street, NW, Suite 300

( Washin , I) . 0005 p } 3 :L;; 3 ACNW OFFICE COPYr RETAIN FOR

_ .THE LIFE OFTHE COMMI'lu -

O

. DISCLAIMER UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION'S ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON NUCLEAR WASTE MARCH 25, 1998 The contents of this transcript of the proceeding of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission Advisory O

(ms/ Committee on Nuclear Waste, taken on March 25, 1998, as reported herein, is a record of the discussions recorded at the meeting held on the above date.

This transcript had not been reviewed, corrected and edited and it may contain inaccuracies.

I a

I i

452 1 UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2 ADVISORY COMMI'ITEE ON NUCLEAR WASTE 3 ***

4 99TH ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON 5 NUCLEAR WASTE (ACNW) MEETING 6

7 U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 8 Two White Flint North, Room 2B-3 9 11545 Rockville Pike 10 Rockville, Maryland 20852-2738 11 12 Wednesday, March 25, 1998 13 14 The Committee met pursuant to notice at 8:34 a.m.

15 16 MEMBERS PRESENT:

17 B. JOHN GARRICK, Chairman, ACNW 18 GEORGE HORNBERGER, Member, ACNW 19 CHARLES FAIRHURST, Member, ACNW 20 RAYMOND G. WYMER, Member, ACNW 21 22 23 24 25- )

'() ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

Court Reporters 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300

)

i Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 842-0034

453 1 STAFF AND PRESENTERS SEATED AT THE COMMISSION TABLE:

2 DR. LARKINS, EDO 3 EDWARD MCGAFFIGAN, JR., Commissioner, NRC 4 ANDREW C. CAMPBELL, Staf f , ACIN 5- LYNN DEERING, Staff, ACNW 6 RICHARD K. MAJOR, Staff, ACIM 7 GIORGIO GNUGNOLI, Staff, ACNW 8 HAROLD LARSON, Staff, ACNW 9 JANET SCHLEUTER, Staff, ACNW 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 I l

22

~23 24 25

() ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

Court Reporters 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005-(202) 842-0034

454 1 PROCEEDINGS

() 2 [8:34 a.m.]

3 DR. HORNBERGER: The meeting will now come to 4 order. This is the third day of the 99th Meeting of the 5 Advisory Committee on Nuclear Waste. My name is John 6 Garrick -- whoops, no, they've changed the script.

7 [ Laughter.]

8 DR. HORNBERGER: My name is George Hornberger, 9 Vice Chairman of the ACNW. Other members of the Committee 10 include Raymond Wymer'and Charles Fairhurst.

11 Today the Committee will meet with Margaret 12 Federline, the Deputy Director of NRC's Division of Waste 13 Management to discuss items of current interest and we will 14 continue preparation of ACNW reports on decommissioning 15 guidance, risk-informed, performance-based regulation, and 16 waste-related research.

17 Richard Major is the designated federal official 18 for the initial portion of today's meeting. This meeting is

, 19 being conducted in accordance with the provisions of the 20 Federal Advisory Committee Act. Should anyone wish to 21 address the committee please make your wishes known to one 22 of the committee staff.

23 It is requested that each speaker use one of the 24 microphones, identify himself or herself, and speak with 25 sufficient clarity and volume so that he or she can be

'D)

'(~ ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

, Court Reporters 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C.'20005 (202) 842-0034

l 455 1 readily heard.

() 2 That takes care of the formal part. Thank you, 3 Margaret and Mike for coming by.

4 And without further adieu we'll go to Margaret.

5 MS. FEDERLINE: Thanks. We had met with the ACNW 6 just several weeks ago, so we have a few topics on the 7 agenda. It's going to be a little more limited than normal 8 if that's agreeable with you.

9 John Gries is in Oakridge at a training course for 10 five weeks so Mike is my acting deputy.

11 The topics that we wanted to talk about this 12 morning, first we had a decommissioning workshop for 13 materials licensees and I wanted to give you some indication 14 of the information that we got out of that.

O k/

ss 15 Second, Mike had a technical exchange with DOE on 16 their total system performance assessment and we wanted to 17 give you some insight on what came out of that meeting.

18 I also wanted to mention a couple of things about 19 the letters that you sent us on March 6th. We really 20 appreciated those letters and we really feel like we're 21 communicating with the committee and we agreement with your 22 feedback, the feedback that you're talking about ranking, 23 priorities in looking at some sort of a technique that we 24 can do that. I think we've talked with you about the work

'25 that we're doing there and we're going to continue to do i

(~N

() ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

Court Reporters 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 842-0034

~

l 456

~

1 some more work _in Fiscal Year '98. So we really appreciate

() 2 the dialogue. We feel like we're working with ACNW and 3 communicating, and it's being very helpful to us. So thank 4 you very much.

5 On the decommissioning workshop you're aware that 6 as part of the-strategic planning effort in the materials 7 decommissioning area the Commission asked us to focus on how 8 can we improve the decommissioning review process. The 9 Commission was really interested in looking at new and 10 different approaches to site remediation and how NRC's 11 regulatory process would review site remediation.

12 The Commission really wanted us to look at 13 implementing a more performance-oriented review. Something 14 that would allow the licensee the flexibility to focus on 15 -the criteria that were set in the recent residual 16_ radioactivity rule. And that there would not be periods of

.17 hold up as a result of NRC's review of decommissioning plans 18 and whatnot.

19 The Commission suggested to us that we have a 20 workshop as well as a pilot program in this area. So on 21 March 19th we held the workshop. We were extremely pleased 22 with the participation. We had about 80 people come to the 23 workshop. It was broadly -- broad participation. NEI 24 participated from the industry, the Fuel Cycle Forum, they LS were both very helpful. Fuel Cycle licensees came, material ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

Court Reporters 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005

.(202) 842-0034

457 1 licensees came, there were representatives from the States, 2 a representative from the organization of Agreement States,

'D 3 and so it was really a very broad-based workshop.

4 And we had communicated what our interests were in 5 advance and had asked people to be prepared to dialogue at 6 the meeting and we were just very impressed at the amount of 7 time that folks took to prepare their presentations that 8 they made at the workshop. And it was really a very useful 9 dialogue. I think some of your staff were able to attend 10 that.

11 Some of the things that we learned from the 12 workshop, the licensees are very enthusiastic about a 13 performance-based approach for decommissioning reviews.

14 They're very interested in conducting as much 15 decommissioning -- remediation as they can under the 16 operating licenses. And that is contemplated by the rules.

17 In other words, the rules indicate that if you're not doing 18 something that has not been reviewed as part of your 19 operating license or does not present a significant safety 20 issue, then you can go ahead and handle it under your 21 operating license. And they urged us to look at 22 establishing more consistent -- a more consistent approach 23 across the regions and in headquarters for doing that.

24 They also indicated, you're aware that the )

{

25 guidance on the decommissioning rule has gone to the

{

r~%

ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

(V) Court Reporters 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 842-0034

458 1 Commission. And I think, in fact, you're having a briefing

() 2 3

during this session on that.

The licensees urged us, they'd like to continue 4 to use RESRAD and other modeling tools in addition to the 5 DandD tool that's been developed by NRC. There's a lot of 6 history with RESRAD, a lot of experience in using that and 7 they urged us to look at how we can retain the flexibility 8 for use of other modeling tools.

9 They also indicated that they wanted us to commit 10 more resources to resolving technical issues. For l 11 decommissioning there, of course, are measurement issues, 12 having to do with site remediation. The cleanup levels are 13 quite low in relation to the capability of measurement 14 techniques for particular radionuclides. They are very

() 15 interested in us focusing on some of these technical issues 16 and providing prompt guidance on that. So that was a 17 message that we heard loud and clear.

18 There were also some organizations and licensees 19 who suggested expanding authorization to dispose of very 20 low-level waste in mill tailings piles. And, of course, 21 that is something that the Commission suggested that we look 22 at under DSI-9. So we're going to be proceeding to look at 23 that.

24 Now, what we are doing, these are just some 25 -vignettes, some highlights from the workshop, but it sort of

-( ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

Court Reporters 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005

~

(202) 842-0034

459 1 gives you a flavor of the discussions that went on. What

) 2 we're doing right now is analyzing the workshop. There was 3 a transcript of the workshop, so we're going back and 4 looking at it in more detail to try and decide what elements 5 we can pursue in a pilot program.

6 We asked for volunteers during this workshop of 7 people who would be willing to participate in a pilot 8 program which would allow us to streamline the 9 decommissioning review process. And we got good initial 10 reaction to that. I expect we're going to get a number of 11 good candidates that we can work with as part of that pilot 12 program.

13 So this is work in progress. I just wanted to 14 give you an idea of where we stand. We'll be staying in 15 touch with you on this. I assume the ACNW, this is a topic 16 that you would be interested in hearing more about. So 17 we'll be happy to do that.

18 Before I turn it over to Mike, there was just one 19 other point I wanted to raise on the risk-informed, 20 performance-based approach. We know that the Committee is 21 spending a good amount of time on that and we really 22 appreciate that. It's very important. I think this is --

I 23 the Chairman's made a very good initiative to really step  !

24 out and define these concepts for use in the regulatory 25 process and we just want to make sure that the policy is

() ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

Court Reporters l

1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 842-0034

460 1 broad enough that it encompasses both materials, waste 2 management and reactor issues. And so I think your review 3 is going to contribute a lot to that and we look forward to 4 seeing your letter on that.

5 Let me just turn it over to Mike now to talk about 6 the technical exchange on high-level waste performance 7 assessment.

8 MR. BELL: Thank you, Margaret, and good morning.

9 As Margaret mentioned, last week in San Antonio we 10 had the third in a series of technical exchanges with the 11 Department of Energy on their total system performance 12 assessment that they're developing for their viability 13 assessment which will be published at the end of this fiscal 14 year.

15 Going into the meeting our objective was to get a 16 clear understanding of what their performance assessment 17 models were, what some of the key assumptions were, the 18 ranges of parameters, present the same kinds of information l I

19 about the models that we're developing with our TPA code and 20 compare results, try to identify the areas where there are l 21 similarities that we can say, well, we don't have issues 22 there, areas where there are differences where the work is 23 needed and try to clarify those areas to DOE so that they 24 can focus on them in the viability assessment either in 25 changes to how they're doing their TSPA or in things that Q ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

Court Reporters  !

1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 842-0034

461 1 they need to do in their license application plan that will

() 2 be described in the TSPA and basically to continue with our 3 "No Surprises" approach.

4 We think the -- well, the meeting was very well 5 attended. There were more than 100 attendees at one point.

6 In fact, Dr. Hornberger was there so he heard much of this 7 and may have already shared with the Committee his 8 impressions of how the meeting went.

9 We think that basically the objectives of the 10 technical exchange were accomplished, that we saw some 11 positive things in the work that DOE is doing. We think 12 that in their models they are examining a number of the 13 processes and phenomenon that we think are critical to 14 repository performance. And we got a good understanding of

() 15 their approach in areas like how they're treating fracture 16 flow in the unsaturated zone. The models they're using for 17 coital transport of plutonium were extensively discussed.

18 And we found there are some differences in how they're 19 treating coital transport of plutonium from the way we're 20 approaching it.

21 We also saw good evidence that they are using 22 their total systems performance assessment in their site 23 characterization work. They've identified the need to get 24 information on the seepage rate into the repository and made 25 the' connection with the NISH studies that are going on in I

() -)MC1 RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

Court Reporters 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 842-0034 I i

l 462 1- the exploratory studies facilities. So we saw a number of >

(~%

() 2 things that are positive in what's being done in the DOE 3 program.

4 We did identify some areas that are positive in 5 what's being done in the DOE program. We did identify some  !

6 areas that further interactions are going to be needed like 7 for example we have about an order of magnitude difference 8 in what we were using for the solubility of neptunium-237 9 which turns out to be one of, if not the key nuclide in most 10 of the performance assessments.

11 We still see a need for information to support the 12 distribution coefficients for the transport through the 13 alluvium in the saturated zone. We got a better 14 understanding of how they're modeling matrix diffusion, but O

\s ,/ 15 we think the model they're using still need better support 16 in terms of data to show that they're used correct. j 17 As you know, the material construction for the i

18 corrosion resistant barriers has recently changed to the 19 alloy C-22. And there were some -- well, significant 20 positives in that if C-22 performs as Doe projects, they i

21 will have a very robust, long-lasting waste package. The 1 22 question we have and since they've just started to focus on 23 this alloy, we haven't had a great deal of time to review 24 the supporting information, is will it really perform as 25 well as they're projecting.

,m ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

(] Court Reporters 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 842-0034

463 1 Just one sort of broader issue that we've been

() 2 3

discussing with them and with this committee for some time is the need for transparency in the models. There are many 4 abstractions that are just not easy to communicate even to 5 the technical staff working on the program and it will be 6 very important for DOE to make their models understandable 7 to a much wider audience, the interested public, the 8 interested members of Congress, and I think this -- this is 9 a continuing dialogue. But just overall I think we'll 10 continue to make progress and the feedback we've gotten from 11 the DOE staff who participated thought that they got a very 12 good understanding of where the NRC staff is coming from in 13 their approach to total system performance assessment as 14 well.

() 15 MS. FEDERLINE: Let me just add one thing, and 16 then Dr. Hornberger if we could ask you if you have some 17 insights, things, we're close to it and sometimes we may 18 miss things. So, the thing I wanted to mention is that this 19 shows the strength of the process that we're involved in 20 now. For instance, we are able to focus on the issue of KDs 21 in the alluvium. We can now go back to DOE and we think 22 that DOE can conduct some fairly cost-effective data 23 collection, get some data fairly quickly in that area that 24 will significantly reduce the uncertainty. i l

25 The other area for us, and it now enables us to I f\)

q ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

Court Reporters 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 842-0034 1

464 1 better focus our technical program. And one thing we've

() 2 3

done over the past two days, you see that Wes Patrick and Boody Sagar are here and over the past few days we've sort 4 of sat down and discussed some changes that we could make to 5 the orientation of scientific program in Fiscal Year '98 6 where resources may be focused, you know, to a specific 7 problem. And we're doing that in the area of corrosion 8 rates for C-22. We've added some work in that area.

9 So, you know, this iterative process of making 10 sure that we understand what points DOE is making, we 11 communicate our points and then we both sort of adjust our 12 program of work to collect the data. I mean, I think this 13 is what the national program is after in terms of focusing 14 the resources better, so this is really what we're trying to 15 accomplish with this process. But we would be interested to 16 hear what your perspectives were.

17 DR. HORNBERGER: Okay I mean, I'd be glad to. I 18 think that amazingly I agree with Mike's summary. I 19 shouldn't say " amazingly", but I think that in terms of what 20 Mike referred to at the end, the over-arching thing, it 21 seemed to me was the issue of transparency with DOE's 22 approach.

23 I think that -- let's see, the only other thing 24 that I would add, the issues that Mike addressed, I think 25 were really amongst the key things. The only one that I i

.,~~ l

-( ') ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

Court Reporters 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 842-0034

465 1 would say wasn't -- perhaps I would have added was this 2 issue of early juvenile canister failures. Doe, I t'r a.

3 their base case doesn't describe anything, every sing.'

4 canister is in tact. On the other hand, I wasn't quite su:_'

5 what the NRC's approach was in TPA-3. And actually, I did 6 have a question as to whether or not the NRC program had any

)

7 work going on to identify what the appropriate incidences, J 8 if you will, for early canister failure and early fuel 9 failure as well, or fraction of fuel failure. Do you know 10 if anything is going on in our program?

11 MS. FEDERLINE: Let me just ask either Boody or 12 Tim if they would like to answer that. Not if you'd like to 13 answer it.

14 [ Laughter.)

15 MR. McCARTNEY: Yeah. I'm not aware of --

16 MS. FEDERLINE: State your name.

17 MR. McCARTNEY: Tim McCartney, NRC Staff. I'm not 18 aware of anything going on to, in any great detail, look at 19 the juvenile failures. We incorporated that percentage as a i

20 --

call it a "best guess" from the staff of that I think 21 varied from what's the worst we would expect from this 22 program to hopefully what would be on the upper end of the 23 best, And if you remember the range goes from -- that we 24 have in the code is from 1 percent to a hundredth of 1 25 percent of the packages are initially failed.

ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

Court Reporters 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 842-0034

466 1 We had discussions, they were limited, based on f-

'( g) 2 people's general experience in the engineering field of 3 things that how many failures would you expect? I mean, how 4 many welds, and it really was a hodgepodge of different 5 experience. The desire was, though, to capture that in that 6 range. And we think that range is conservative on the high 7 end, 1 percent would seem to be a very high rate of juvenile 8 failures for a program like this that will be conducted 9 under a fairly extensive QA/QC program.

10 Now, a hundredth of 1 percent is pretty low. So I 11 think we capture the full range. The desire was to see, did 12 it have a big impact on performance. And that's where we've 13 -- that's why we had it in there. It did not seem to impact 14 performance much, and so we were comforted by that. And we r0 i ,/ 15 really don't intend to do, as far as I know, any further s

16 work. We would expect the DOE in their license application 17 to have a number *. hat's justified based upon the program 18 they have for the welds and everything else and we would 19 expect tnat would be defended. But from our limited view of l

20 it, its impact on performance to date would be that we're 21 not overly concerned because 1 percent is fairly high and it 22 didn't seem to dominate or affect the results significantly.

23 DR. HORNBERGER: I guess, you know, just some  ;

24 other general observations, Margaret, for the record. I i 25 must say that I was really impressed with the progress that ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

Court Reporters 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 842-0034

467 1 has been made in both the DOE TSPA and the NRC's TPA-3.

( 2 In hearing the presentations I was struck by a 3 relative, " imbalance" shall we say in the level of work that 4 had been done in regards with the natural system versus the 5 , engineered barrier system. I don't think there's any doubt 6 in anyone's mind that the DOE program has progressed to the 7 point where there's much more reliance being placed on the 8 total -- the container and the engineered barrier system.

9 Although I think a lot of the work that's been i

10 done on canister corrosion is excellent. The other aspects 11 of the engineered barrier system were, in my estimation, 12 treated much more crudely than many of the other aspects.

13 That may not be totally correct, but that was my impression 14 on listening to the presentations.

() 15 DR. FAIRHURST: I was wondering --

16 MR. CAMPBELL: Charles, you need to use your 17 microphone.

I 18 DR. FAIRHURST: I was going to respond to George's l 19 question.

20 MR. BELL: I was just going to thank Dr.

21 Hornberger for those comments and I guess the issue that you 22 have raised about other aspects of the engineered barrier 23 system is also an issue that TRB has recently raised. And 1 24 have the impression that the DOE program will do that, but  !

L 25 it's a question of whether there's time to do any more work I T ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

\2 Court Reporters l 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 842-0034

( 468 1 in those areas before VA or more likely that's post-VA type 2 of-work.

3 MS. FEDERLINE: I think our impression was, as we 4 talked in our last session, that TRB-was really interested 5 in DOE presenting as much information on the engineered 6 system and other options in the viability assessment. And I 7 think there's been a strong push in that area. I think we 8 have strongly urged DOE to maintain the balance between the 9 natural system and the engineered system. It's not that 10 we're discouraging a robust engineered system, quite the 11 contrary, we encourage it. But we also feel that the 12 defense in-depth compensation for uncertainties is needed in l i

13 the natural system and that's why we're pushing with our 14 issue resolution reports in all the natural system areas.

()

i 15 So, that's sort of the way we're dealing with the issue.

I 16 Were there any questions on any other areas that 17' we might not have covered today?  :

18 DR. HORNBERGER: I'm sure there are some 19 questions, Charles?

20 DR. FAIRHURST: It's a fairly general question, I 21 . hope you'll forgive me because, for example, I've not had a 22 real opportunity to look at the detailed key technical 23 issues and how they've -- whether they've really been

)

24 resolved as an agreement to disagree or whatever. I don't 25 understand quite how the word." resolve" is meant.

ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

.O~ Court Reporters 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 842-0034

7__

469 1 But, as an example, I'm interested in your

() 2 flexibility and your ability Mike mentioned looking at 3- seeing differences and order of magnitude and solubility and 4 so on. But if the C-22 alloy is as good as it says, and 5 you're right, Mike, that that's not necessarily known right 6 now, but it suggests that the very tricky issue of a couple 7 of effects around in the field it becomes -- has a very 8 different significance. And so I'm wondering if you're able 9 to -- if you like -- adapt quickly enough to say how will we 10 view that? At one extreme one may say rather than wondering 11 about detailed effects showing up here which presumably of 12 major impact on corrosion. If they have no consequence on 13 corrosion, what is the significance of that? Is it just the 14 damage done by heating and how'much is being taken into

( 15 account, for example, on what damage is done during that 16 cycle to the liner to the near field, to the fractures, et 17 cetera. Have they consequently gotten major apertures?

18 Some were that they weren't before which causes different 19 flow paths in the non-thermal regime.

20 And that's just an example of what I think 21 questions, this one has come up in the last, what, six 22 months or a year.

23 MS. FEDERLINE: Yes.

24 DR. FAIRHURST: And between now arf licensing I 25 suspect likely to be a number of others. And I don't know ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

Court Reporters 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 842-0034

470 1 how to really ask this question, but are you in a position

() 2 to really aggressively say how is that going to change our 3 approach to the licensing exercise?

4 MS. FEDERLINE: What we are trying to do -- let me 5 answer your first question first, what does " resolve" mean?

6 Resolve means under procedural agreement that we have with 7 DOE and other -- the state and counties were reviewers in 8 that agreement. What it means is that we have no additional 9 questions by the staff at this point in time. It doesn't 10 mean that if new information comes up that the issue cannot 11 be reopened or that questions cannot be asked as part of the 12 licensing proceeding. But what it is during the 13 prelicensing period is an attempt to, you know, focus on 14 where there really are differences or remaining questions iO

\s ,/ 15 rather than continuing to go over issues where there is some 16 essential agreement. So --

17 DR. FAIRHURST: But it could mean that you -- NRC 18 has a point of view which is different and you've defined 19 that and clearly identified it so each one knows what the 20 other's questions are.

21 MS. FEDERLINE: Yes.

22 DR. FAIRHURST: But there is still a need to do 23 more work or look and come back with further, quote 24 " resolutions" for that issue?

25 MS. FEDERLINE: That's right. And we plan to (3) ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

(

Court Reporters 1 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 )

Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 842-0034

)

471 1 continue to pursue issue resolution until issues are

/~%

2 resolved. There are some timing questions. If the thermal

()

3 work turns out to be extremely important, that could be a 4 license condition. In other words, we would be able to make 5 bounding assumptions that may or may not be adequate for 6 construction authorization, but that we may want to reduce 7 the uncertainties further. And, therefore, there would be 8 license conditions that would require more work to be done 9 pushing towards issue resolution at a later date. But we're 10 trying to put ourselves in a position where we can respond 11 both using process-level sensitivity analysis and 12 system-level sensitivity analysis. So that we have the 13 flexibility in our code to look at what the impact on 14 performance would be.

15 You could hear in Tim's answer to the question of 16 canister failure. First we wanted to look and see how 17 important would this be based on some bounding assumptions.

18 And then based on that, it could lead us back to the 19 scientific work to say, yes, it is important and therefore i

20 we need to do some more really focused scientific work in i

21 these a1eas. '

22 Mike, I don't know, do you want to comment on the 23 specifics of Dr. Fairhurst's question?

24 MR. BELL: Yeah, on the second issue, do we have 25 the flexibility to respond, you know, to a degree we do and 1

ANN RILEY &' ASSOCIATES, LTD.

Court Reporters 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 842-0034

472 1 'in fact that's the process Margaret mentioned early that we

() 2 had been going through with the center this week. As the 3 results of the technical exchange and what we've learned in 4 our sensitivity analyses we have just gone through KTIs, 5 reframed some of the subissues, will be reprioritizing and 6 in fact some of this we're going to try to reflect even in 7 the second half of Fiscal '98, but we're really going 8 through this -- starting to go through this process now to 9 prioritize things for '99 budget. And so just given that 10 there was a budgeting and contracting aspect of changing 11 your program.

12 It takes, you know, some period of time, and, you 13 know, it's about mid-year and so we're doing mid-year review 14 now by Fiscal '99 we'll have a new set of priorities in the

() 15 KTIs and the program will look somewhat different based on 16 what was learned.

17 DR. FAIRHURST: This one I think I know the answer 18 to, but I'll just ask it more or less. But supposing 19 something came up in the next two to three years which was 20 outside of the competence of -- I mean, somebody knows 21 something generally about it, but doesn't feel to be an 22 authority on it. And there are, let's see, expertise in 23 Japan or Germany can you bring those people in, in a fashion 24 so that they can give you genuine assistance over -- I'm not 25 talking about a one-day review or two-day -- but --

ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

Court Reporters 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 842-0034

1 473 1 MS. FEDERLINE: Yes.

() 2 DR. FAIRHURST: --. essentially you have a contract 1

3 with somebody like that? j 4 MS. FEDERLINE: Yes, we have the capability though ,

1 5 the center. The center is allowed to engage a percentage of 6 consultants and that was an intentional decision by the 7 Commission. They recognized that although we were 8 identifying a core capability at the center that there would 9 'be expertise that we would need to bring in and perhaps not 10 --

11 DR. FAIRHURST: Okay. Okay.

12 MS. FEDERLINE: -- keep full time.

13 DR. FAIRHURST: That is sort of -- you said there 14 is a percentage, is it 1 percent or 10 percent? I mean, is

"(_j 15 it a reasonable capability?

16 MS. FEDERLINE: Ten percent -- 15 to 20 Wes is 17 telling me.

18 DR. HORNBERGER: You have to us a microphone.

19 MR. PATRICK: Wes Patrick from the center. It can 20 go as high as 15 to 20 percent and Professor Fairhurst we 21 have us that mechanism to date and with some of the 22 realigned work that we're looking at particularly how 23 fractures affect flow. We're in the process of putting a 24 couple of people under contract, one from the UK for 25 example, and we have used expertise from the UK in the past b

\/

ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

Court Reporters 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 842-0034

474 1 for performance assessment support as well.

'( 2 DR. FAIRHURST: Good. Thanks, Wes.

3 MS. FEDERLINE: People think of this as a 4 10,000-year problem, and yet we think of it as a two-week 5 problem. Every two weeks there's some change that has to be 6 made. So we appreciate your sensitivity to that.

7 DR. HORNBERGER: You can tell. One of the things 8 that we're grappling with now, as you probably know, we have 9 to do a review or research and we've been struggling to try 10 to get our arms around how you people define research versus 11 technical assistance, versus this event. And it's difficult 12 for us to understand everything that's going on because as I 13 have understood from Mike before, really the work that the 14 center does for you is all classified under technical

( 15 assistance and yet some of it can be pretty fundamental.

16 MS. FEDERLINE: Well, in this area I think we have 17 to think in terms of site specific.

18 DR. HORNBERGER: Right.

19 MS. FEDERLINE: You know, most research applies in 20 some sort of a generic capacity. What we're dealing here 21 with is a scientific problem for a specific site where the 22 technical work really has to react almost on a daily or 23 weekly basis to new information that's coming out. And, you 24 know, whether the bureaucracy allows -- you know, the right

'25 definitions, we're sort of driven by waat the work is that If ) ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

Court Reporters-125C I Street, N.W., Suite 300 Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 842-0034

475 1 needs to be done.

() 2 DR. HORNBERGER: You wouldn't happen to have a one 3 or _ two or more page list of the projects that the center is 4 doing for you this year?

5 MS. FEDERLINE: Oh, yeah.

6 DR. FAIRHURST: That would be helpful.

7 MS. FEDERLINE: Yeah, we can provide that.

8 DR. HORNBERGER: Any questions, Ray?

9 DR. WYMER: No , I don't have any questions.

10 DR. HORNBERGER: Staff?

11 [No response.]

12 DR. HORNBERGER: Thank you very much, Margaret and 13 Mike.

14 DR. FAIRHURST: Yes, thank you.

15 MS. FEDERLINE: Thank you.

16 DR. HORNBERGER: We won't need the recorder 17 anymore, right?

18 The Committee will now go into a letter-writing 19 session so we won't need the recorder anymore.

20 [Whereupon, at 9:10 a.m., the meeting was 21 l

concluded.]

22 23 24 25

i],

/

ANN RILEY & ASSOCIATES, LTD.

Court Reporters 1250 I Street, N.W., Suite 300

-Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 842-0034

REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:

NAME OF PROCEEDING: 99TH ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON NUCLEAR WASTE (ACNW) MEETING DOCKET NUMBER:

PLACE OF PROCEEDING: Rockville, MD were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings.

1 WAf\ t ?T /

Jo ndley Official Reporter Ann Riley & Associates, Ltd.

A i