ML20215N064
| ML20215N064 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 10/28/1986 |
| From: | Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20215N065 | List: |
| References | |
| LRP, NUDOCS 8611040233 | |
| Download: ML20215N064 (135) | |
Text
dfGNAL o
U UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION IN THE MATlT.i OF:
DOCKET NO:
LRP INQUIRY INTO THREE MILE ISLAND UNIT 2 - LEAK RATE DATA FALSIFICATION
(
LOCATION:
BETHESDA, MARYLAND PAGES:
4165 - 4299 DATE:
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 28, 1986 ffA 3W gA' k!
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O l ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
OfficialReporters 444 North CapitolStreet Washington, D.C. 20001 (202)347-3700 0611 e w
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l CR28690.0 BRT/sjg 4165 1 - l, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
BEFORE THE ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD 4
-X In the Matter of:
5
~
Docket No. LRP INQUIRY INTO THREE MILE ISLAND 6
UNIT 2 - LEAK RATE DATA FALSIFICATION 7
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x 8
9 Nuclear Regulatory Commission Fifth Floor Hearing Room 10 East West Towers 4350 East-West Highway 11 Bethesda, Maryland 12 Tuesday, October 28, 1986 13
,7-(_)
The hearing in the above-entitled matter convened at 8:30 a.m.
15 16 BEFORE:
JUDGE JAMES L. KELLEY, Chairman 17 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board U.S.
Nuclear Regulatory Commission 18 Washington, D.
C.
19 l JUDGE ~ JAMES H.
CARPENTER, Member Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 20 1 U.S.
Nuclear Regulatory Commission l
Washington, D.
C.
21 JUDGE GLENN O.
BRIGHT, Member 22 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board U.S.
Nuclear Regulatory Commission 23 j Washington, D.
C.
24
(~'
(_)
25 j I
Aa-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 APPEARANCES:
I
)
On behalf of GPU Nuclear Corporation:
~J g
ERNEST L.
- BLAKE, JR.,
ESQ.
3l JOHN N.
NASSIKAS III, ESQ.
Shaw, Pittman, Potts & Trowbridge I
1800 M Street, N.W.
4 Washington, D.
C.
20036 5
~
On behalf of the Employees:
6 HARRY H. VOIGT, ESQ.
MICHAEL McBRIDE, ESQ.
7 LeBoeuf, Lamb, Leiby & MacRae 1333 New Hampshire Avenue, N.W.
8 Washington, D.
C.
20036 MOLLY. BOAST, ESQ.
9 LeBoeuf, Lamb, Leiby & MacRae 520 Madison Avenue 10 New York, New York 10022 On behalf of Jack Herbein:
JAMES B.
BURNS, ESQ.
12 Isham, Lincoln & Beale Three First National Plaza 13 Chicago, Illinois 60602 gx 14 l CHRISTOPHER W.
FLYNN, ESQ.
()
RICHARD O.
WOLF, ESQ.
3 sham, Lincoln & Beale 15 1150 Connecticut Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.
C.
20036 16 On behalf of Gary P. Miller:
17 MICHAEL W.
MAUPIN, ESQ.
M.
CHRISTINA HENSLEY, ESQ.
18 Hunton & Williams 707 East Main Street 19 ;
Richmond, Virginia 23221 l
20 '
On behalf of Former Metropolitan Edison Employees:
21 l
SMTIH B.
GEPHART, ESQ.
22 l Killian & Gephart 217-218 Pine Street, Box 886 Harrisburg, Pennsylvania 17108 23 On behalf of the NRC Staff:
24
(~)
JACK R.
GOLDBERG, ESQ.
A/
25 i MARY E.
WAGNER, ESQ.
I U.S.
Nuclear Regulatory Commission ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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4167 i
CONTENTS U
3 WITNESS EXAMINATION 4
Raymond R. Booher by Mr. Gephart 4175 5
by the Board 4178 by Mr. Gephart 4195 6
by the Board 4196 7
Kenneth R. Hoyt by Mr. ficBride 4233 8
by the Board 4236 9
10 HECESS:
g N00N - 4232 12 13
,.)
R) 14 LAY-IN - PREPARED STATEMENT OF B00HER, Follows Page 4175 15 16 LAY-IN - PREPARED STATEMENT OF H0YT, Follows Page 4233 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 i
24 !
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1 PROCEERINgS 2'
JUD'GE KELLEY:
We are on the record this Tuesday 3
morning.
We have been having an off-the-record discussion on 4
the schedule.
I just began to refer to witnesses and their 5
status.
In that regard, there are.several rulings and 6
statements concerning the status of witnesses that I can now 7
make.
8 Of the various people who have been,put forward as 9
potential witnesses in the case, we have already indicated,'I 10 believe, that we do not wish to -- not a matter of wishing --
11 we don't -intend to call Dr. Chung, subject only to this 12 outstanding discussion that is still taking place between the
)
13 Staff and counsel for the employees regarding a particular 14 position that'Dr. Chung took at one time.
We would like to hear from counsel on t'at;..not immediately but in the next h
15 16 day or so, so we can, hopefully, nail that down.
17 We have already the discussion from the parties l
18 with regard to several other witnesses and we have reviewed 19 the pertir. ant sections of the record, most notably prior
. 2:0 statements'by various people concerning their participation 21 in leak rate and we decided that we will-not call Mr. Stair, 22 we will not call Mr. Weaver, we will not call Mr. Germer, and 23 we will not call Mr. Brummer.
24 Very briefly in those regards, Mr. Stair by~his
- (J 25 statement and by all other indications we have got, was ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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I merely serving essentially a' clerical function in connection 2
with the LER.
We don't see that.his input was significant i
3 other than to write down some words.
It may well be th'at his 4
. statement-in the record will be useful and is in the record, 5-but the issue is whether we-ought to call him in addition to 6
having the statement.
We don't think so.-
1 j.
7 Mr. Weaver.is the. gentleman involved in various j
8-efforts by engineers to work with the loop seal.
Again, his 9
statement is in the record and it shows what it shows.
We 10 don't see any real need to call him to testify in addition.
11' Mr. Germer is, I believe, in Maine these days.
12 His involvement in. leak rate testing was minimal.
The.same.
13 is true'of Mr. Brummer; he's not in Maine but his role was 14 very minimal and.it appears that at most he may have had some 15 role in writing procedures, but it's not the procedure-16 writing we are concerned with, it's the procedure 17 administration.
So we believe that Mr. Brummer's appearance 18 is also not warranted.
19 There is an outstanding question with-regard to 20 Mr. Bettenhausen, the author of an affidavit having to do 21 with Units 1 and 2 and the significance of evaporative i
22 factors.
I won't try to characterize it beyond that' but.in
~23 any event, we began to call Mr. Bettenhausen and then it was 4
24' decided we should all read his affidavit.
The affidavit has
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25
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next day or so we would like to hear a little further 2
discussion as to whether Mr.~Bettenhausen or his affidavit or 3
-- whatever ought to be done about this.
But, maybe first 4
thing tomorrow morning; is that all right?
5 MR. MC BRIDE:
That will be fine.
6 JUDGE KELLEY:
Okay.
7 MR. MC BRIDE:
May I-just raise a point of 8
inquiry, Judge Kelley?
That is that we very much appreciate 9
the Board's attention to Mr. Germer and Mr. Brummer, because 10 I had requested the Board decide whether it was necessary to 11 call them.
But we will then have a procedural matter that 12 we'll have to attend to, which is that each of those
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F 13 gentlemen has prefiled testimony.
14 JUDGE KELLEY:
Right.
15 MR. MC BRIDE:
I would propose in the absence of 16 an objection from a party, that the statements be 17 incorporated in the record at' some point as a stipulation that if they were here thas what they would say and let it t
18 19 go at that.
20 JUDGE KELLEY:
In the absence of an objection, 21 that would seem to be a pretty reasonable approach.
Perhaps 22 counsel could consider whether they have any objection and we 23 can get a reading from you a little later.
24 MR. MC BRIDE:
In that connection, I wonder if I
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25 might raise one other subject.
On a review of the record
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over the break that we've had in the last week and a half or 2
so, I discovered that when we had Mr. Haverkamp as a witness, 3
at least my. copy of the transcript does not inclu'de his 4
prepared statement.
It was not bound into the record as if 5
read.
6 I think what may have happened is we had the prior 7
panel of technical witnesses, most.of whom were authors of 8-voluminous reports and of course we weren't binding those 9
into the transcript and I'm not sure we fell into the pattern 10 of binding these statements into record as if read until we 11 got to our clients.
12 I'm not certain about Mr. Kirkpatrick and Wermiel 13
-- that just occurs to me now; I can go back and check on 14 that -- but if those statements were not bound into the 15 record as if read, it would seem to me appropriate that it.be 16 done.so they would be incorporated into the physical 17
. transcript of these proceedings for convenience later.
18 JUDGE KELLEY:
Well, certainly let's check on what 19 happened in that regard.
Your suggestion would seem to be 20 eminently sensible -- except for.one item you forgot, 21 wouldn't know about.
-I got a memorandum from Judge Cotter 22 and the subject was how much it costs to bind things into the 23 transcript.
I would say very high.
It's a buck and a half a-24 page per copy.
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25
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1 here,.and if we are now going to be asked to put 30 or 40 2
pages in, at that rate, we may pause a bit and just use them 3
as exhibits.
4 You are going to let.us know, right, what happened 5
to the other?
6 MR. MC BRIDE:
I just thought for consistency we-7 ought to do the same thing for those as we did with the 8
others, but we can discuss it.
We'll talk to you later about 9
it.
10 JUDGE KELLEY:
There are two witnesses, 11 Mr. Bezilla and Mr. Morck that the Board would like to 12
. continue to keep in a holding pattern, so to speak.
They are
(
13 concerned or involved one way or another with the LER, and it 14 may be that our -- that the presentations from Seelinger may 15 obviate the need to call them; however, it may make it a 16 stronger need to call them.
We realize we are not ruling on
.1'7 that yet but we would like to have that matter to stay with 18 the understanding that we are deferring them now -- have you 19 had a chance to get in touch with these gentlemen?
20 MR. MC BRIDE:
Where we left that, Judge Kelley, that I certainly indicated to the Board that we would be 21 was 22 willing to contact those gentlemen if the Board so desired.
23 Since the Board had them in a holding pattern when we were 24 last together-and still does, I haven't felt the need to do l ()
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I don't anticipate there will be any problem in 2
getting ahold of them; certainly ~in the case of Mr. Bezilla, 3
and I believe that's also the case of Mr. Morck.
Whenever 4
the Board indicates, if it does, that they would like to hear 5
from them we'll give them a call, but I would like to hold 6
off making those calls unti: it is necessary to do so.
7 JUDGE KELLEY:
My only concern is with delay.
My 8
only concern is with somebody like Mr. Morck saying, gee 9
whiz, you should have called me last week.
I'm off to 10 Hawaii.
11 MR. MC BRIDE:
If you are concerned about 12 something like that we will certainly call them --
13 JUDGE KELLEY:
You might call and alert them.
I 14 would think if we go over with -- well, it could be the end 15 of next week, certainly, hopefully during the following week, 16 we would be done.
17 Okay.
That leaves, I believe, just two people in 18 a deferred status, in a sense.
I'm referring to two nominees 19 that Mrs. Aamodt'made some time ago, Mr. Tim Martin and 20 Mr. Queen.
21 With regard at least to Queen, arguably we haven't 22 reached that yet because we haven't gotten to the management 23
-phase so it's not really timely to consider them, but I had 24 thought Mr. Aamodt was going to be here this morning.
She
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25 had said she was going to be here this morning and I thought ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 maybe we would talk about these people.
She is not here.
2 Time goes by and I can only say that the passage of time and 3
the interests of wrapping this case up some day suggest that 4
the continued delay in addressing these issues, due to the 5
absence of their sponsor, may work against their being 6
called.
7 Did you have something else, Mr. Voigt?
8 MR. VOIGT:
Yes, sir.
This has to do with 9
Mr. Kunder, who is going to be testifying a week from today.
10 The Board may recall that there's a rather 11 extensive discussion in Mr. Stier's report about a steam leak 12 that was being experienced in the plant during the first 13 couple of weeks of January 1979.
And there is a discussion 14 about whether or not the plant should have been shut down 15 because of the steam leak and who was responsible for-16' decisions and so forth and so on.
17 In his prepared statement, Mr. Kunder has 18 indicated that he believes those matters are outside the 19 scope'of a hearing on leak rates and therefore he hasn't said_
l 20 anything about it.
But I wanted to point that out to the 21 Board because, if you tell me either now or sometime between 22 now and next Tuesday, that you are interested in that 23 subject, Mr. Kunder will certainly be prepared to address 24 it.
()
25 JUDGE KELLEY:
Thank you.
That's helpful.
We'll i
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1 try to give you an indication as soon as possible.
2 Mr. Booher? ' Good morning, sir.
3 Whereupon, 4
RAYMOND R.
BOOHER 5
was called.as a witness and, having first been duly sworn, 6
was examined and testified as follows:
7 EXAMINATION 8
BY MR. GEPHART:
9 Q
Mr. Booher, do you have before you a six-page 10_
document entitled " Prepared Statement of Raymond R.
Booher"?
11 A
Yes, I do.
12 Q
Did you have an opportunity to again review this O
13 document last night?
14 A
Yes, sir.
15 Q
Do you have any additions or corrections that you 16 desire to make at this time?
17 A
No, I don't.
18 Q
Do you wish this to be bound into the record as.
19 your statement?
20 A
Yes, sir.
21 JUDGE KELLEY:
So ordered.
22 (The document follows:)
23 24 o)
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1 JUDGE KELLEY:
Mr. Booher, I have a short 2
statenent that I'll read for the sake of context, largely, 3
and then we'll get into our questions.
4 This Board has been charged by the Commission to 5
determine the extent of involvement of employees at TMI-2 in 6
1978 and '79 in leak rate test falsification and other 7
improper practices in leak rate testing.
This is your 8
opportunity to state on the record your recollections-and 9
your perceptions about your involvement in leak rate testing 10 at that time and to rebut any adverse statement about you by 11 other employees or investigators with which'you might 12 disagree.
,)
~
13 We have reviewed your prefiled testimony.
We 14 considered it in the light of the record that has already 15 been made in this proceeding, and we are in the process now 16 of hearing people from your shift.
We heard from Mr. Hartman 17
'some time back, Mr. Boyd is. coming later today.
I mentioned 18 Mr. Blessing, I don't know whether he's coming or not; and 19 Mr. Smith will be here tomorrow.
And I guess yours is the 20 last. complete shift'that we are hearing from.
21 Typically that's what we've done, we've heard 22 from-the CROs, and the foremen and also the shift 23 supervisors.
24 We'll have some questions based on your prefiled i
(( )
25' testimony and we'll also have some questions, possibly based ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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other peop1'e have made.
3 As you may know, there are in the record of this 4
case already, two extensive studies on leak rate testing.
I 5
think you were interviewed by the NRR/NRC people in that 6
connection, perhaps by Mr. Stier as well.
7 Their studies are in the record and they include 8
rather detailed analyses.of every test -- in the caue of 9
Stier, every test that was conducted, leak rate test that was 10.
conducted at TMI-2 that wasn't thrown away; and in the case 11 of NRR, all the tests that were retained during the last six 12 months of operation.
13 In those circumstances it has not been our 14 approach with witnesses, and it won't be our approach with 15 you, to go through each test you ever had anything to do 16 with; but rather -- those analyses are in'the record -- we 17 may focus on a.few tests so as to get a better look at 18 exactly what you did at a particular time, but we are not 19 going to go through an exhaustive, point-by-point 20 discussion.
Those tests, and the studies that concern them, 21 are. in the record and they are entitled to whatever weight 22 they.are-entitled to in light of the entire record, including 23 your testimony here this morning.
24
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-EXAMINATION BY'THE BOARD 2
BY JUDGE KELLEY:.
3 Q
I would like to begin by asking you to describe 4
how leak rate tests were performed on your shift, in terms of i
5 who did what.
6 A
A little bit-of background on how I remember the 7
shift being organized at that time was, there were 8
essentially three people on a shift, RO-wise:
One person had 9
the. panel with.the control room logbook; one person had 10 surveillances; and one person had tagging.
Something of that 11 nature.
4 12 The person that had surveillances would actually-13 do-the leak rate.
That was done on a shiftly basis.
14 Physically, how you did a leak rate, you would put some kind
~
of a code into the computer and the computer would ask you-15
~
16 questions.
17 Q
At the-beginning of the test,-as I understand it, 18 you'd type in the code, RCSL -- wasn't that what it was?
19 A
It-could be.
20 Q
That's what I've heard, anyway -- and tell the i
21 computer how long the test was supposed to be; is.that right?
22' A
Yes, sir.
23 Q
Then you are referring to questions, would those 24 ques tions then come at the end of the test?
At the end of
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1 25 the hour?
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'1' k-At the end of the hour -- or whatever; I think il
- 1. was a variable time period could you put in there.
2 3'
Q You could change it, yes.
I'm just assuming --
- 4.,
A There were questions.
If you added, I think if S
you added wated,,yes, sir, that was one of the questions at 6
the end.
7 Q'
Right.
Okay.
So the person who wa's starting the 8
test would punch the codes into the computer?
l
~
9 A
Yes, sir.
10 Q
And at the end of the test he would answer the 11 questions put to him by the computer, including, let's say, 12
.wat'er additions, and you'd get a result.
Right?
7_U 13 A
Yes.
s 14 Q
The computer would --
15 A
When you put the required answers in for the questions, then the computer would. calculate some value.
16 17 Q
Okay.
Now, if in the course of a leak rate test
~
18 you had some need to add water, let's say -- would that 19 happen, from time to time?
20 A
Yes, sir.
21
- Q ; (Typically who would do that?
22
,A The person that had the panel.
The panel operator 23
'would do that.
Q 24 Q
I put the question in terms of " typically who
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25 wauld do it?"
Put a little differently, would the panel ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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operator always do that, if water were to be added?
2 A
I. don't think the panel operator was the sole 3-person to ever perform action on a board so someone other --
l 4
some other operator in the control room may manipulate some
'5 actions on the board, including add water.
I 6
Q-But, in the typical case would -- let's take the.
7 leak rate situation.
If there were some need, whatever the l
{
8' need may be, to add some water to the makeup tank -- well, 9
let's take a specific case.
l l
10 The makeup tank, as I understand it, was l
11 maintained at a certain level, certain minimum and, maximum i
12 levels;-correct?
(-
13 A
Yes, sir.
I 14 Q
And I went up to TMI.last week and at least as of 15 last week the indicator said 55 inches and 85 inches; does f
16 that sound about right?
17 A
It sounds good to me; sure.
l l
18 Q
Okay.
Now let's suppose that the level is heading 19 down be' low 55 and -- would the surveillance guy, then, be the 20 guy who would put water in to bring it up above -- to prevent 21 it from going below 55 or would the CR0 guy, or who would do 22 that?
23 A
It would be the panel person, or the operator that.
24 had the duty of the panel.
.)
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25 Q
So the panel guy would do that?
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1 say this is typically the case.
2 A
Sure.
3 Q
Now, 'in ' order for -the leak rate test to come out l
1 4
accurately, the fact that water was added during the test has 5
to be communicated to the surveillance man; right?
6 A
Yes, sir.
7 Q
.Again, typically, would the CRO on the panel tell j
8 the surveillance guy?
Or how did this work?
How was that 9
communication maintained?
10 l A
The way I remember it, sir, it was the person l
11 performing the. surveillance would check the logbook for any 12 addition of water.
sj 13 Q
Just as a matter of routine?
14 A
Yes, sir.
15 Q
So, if you were running the test and you were at 16 the end of the test and you were answering the question, 17 you'd look in the logbook for an addition?
l 18 A
Yes, sir.
l 19 Q
Would you also ask him orally:
Did you add any i
l 20 water?
Or would you just look in the book and assume --
21 A
I would think in lieu of looking in the logbook, I 22 would ask the operator if he had added water in the last time 2'a period for the leak rate.
24 Q
Would you also tell the panel operator, j
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25 particularly if you were running a leak rate test, tell him ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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in advance:
I'm starting a leak rate test?
2 A
I don't remember if I did that or not but that's-3 good practice.
4 Q
How would you -- let me ask you first.
You say 5
there were typically three CRos.
That's yourself and Hartman 6~
and. Blessing; is that correct?
7 A
Yes, sir.
8 Q
Was-Blessing a trainee during part of the time?
9 Let me be more specific.
Were you and Hartman on the same 10 shift throughout the time of commercial operation?
Or what' 4
11 was your time of service as a CRO?-
12 A
If I remember correctly,-Hal Hartman was my: peer =
0 13 throughout the operation of TMI-2.
14 Q
Do yvo recall whether you were a CR0 throughout 15 the time of, let's say, commercial operation at TMI-2?
16 A'
Yes, sir.
I went for the initial license of Unit 17 2.
18
'Q You did say in your prefiled that John Blessing i -
19 was a trainee.
Did he become a CRO during that time, do you 20 recall?
i 21 A
I don't remember, sir.
22 Q
Okay.
We can check that in the record, I.think.
. 23 I just thought I would ask you.
24 But, if he had been a trainee during a portion of j
-(f 25 that time, then with regard to leak rates, could he have run ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 leak rate tests himself?
2 A
Yes, sir.
3 Q
If he had done so as'a trainee,.would he have done 4'
it just like a CRO?
Or would he supposedih have-been under 5
some kind of supervision while he was doing it?
6 A
Typically, a trainee could perform surveillances-7 and tagging without direct supervision.
But if the person 8
was on the panel he would have direct supervision.
9 So, yes, sir, he could run a surveillance.
10 Q
How would you describe -- and we have as context 11 how these leak rate tests were run and who does what.
Just 12 to fill that out, if you were the operator on leak rate G( -
s 13 tests, you.would run the test a'nd the computer would then
~
14 print out a final result and give -- then you would, what, 15 review the test?
Review the number that came out of the 16 computer?
17 A
I would look at the final result; yes, sir.
18 Q
And if it was under 1 gallon a minute you would 19 sign it; right?
20 A
Yes, sir.
21 Q
And then would you take it to the foreman-or leave 22 it on his dc=k or how was that step carried out?
23 A
I think the routine was for the person performing 24 the test after receiving the final result, would be to take
()~
25 it to.the foreman for authorization and then it would be ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 entered into the logbook, I think.
2 Q
Okay.
With that context of who does what, how 3
would.you describe your working relationship,-first with 4
Hartman and then with Blessing?
5 A
Working relationship was professional.
6 Q
I think I understand what the word connotes.
Is 7
that a little bit different from saying it was a.close 8
working relationship?
9 A
Pardon?
10 Q
Is that a little bit different from saying it was 11 a close working relationship?
12 A
As'in saying best of friends?
') '
i 13 Q
Okay.
Yes.
14 A
Hal Hartman was not'my best friend, so therefore, 15 we were not extremely close, then.
16 Q
But you managed to get along okay on shift?
17 A
Yes, sir.
18 Q
How about with Blessing?
How would you 19 characterize your relationship with him?
20 A
The same.
Professional but not the best of 21 friends.
22 Q
Are you aware -- I take it you are aware of the 23 various statements that Mr.'Hartman and Mr. Blessing made, 24 statements about 1eak rate tests generally and, in the case
~
()
25 of Hartman, Hartman has made at least one statement about ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage R n 33 9 686
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BRT 4185 1
you, I'm certain you know about.
How would you respond to 2
Hartman's claim that -- excuse me, let me get a page 3l reference.
Well, I'm looking at page 73 of the NRC interview 4
with you.
That's dated November 15, 1984.
5 Looking at page 73, if you could just show him 6
that?
7 A
Where are we?
8 Q
I think.on page 73 there's a~ solid cap 9
" EXAMINATION" called " Examination by Mr. Christ ~opher."
10 A
Yes, sir.
11 Q
Starting below that Christopher says:
"Okay, 12 particularly here I'm talking about water additions."
O' 13 And you say:
"I don't know of anybody right now 14 that tried to manipulate a leak' rate by adding water."
15 And Christopher says:
"I asked Hartman this 16 question on July 26, 1983 'what specific operators did you 17 witness add water to a makeup tank in order to manipulate 18 leak rate tests?'
19 "And the answer was ' Ray Booher, because he was on 20 my shift.'"
21 You had seen this statement before?
Of course it 22 was put to you in the context of the interview.
23 A
Yes, sir.
24 Q
From reading your prepared testimony and your
()
25 other testimony, I understand.that you deny that you did add ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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(
I 1
water for the purpose of manipulating the leak rate test and 2
here is Hartman saying that you did.
What comment would you 3
have about Mr'.-Hartman's statement?
~
f 4
A Mr. Hartman's statement is not true.
5 Q
Can you suggest any reason why he would make such 6
a statement?
7 A
No, sir.
8 Q
The particular statement we have just been looking 9
at strikes me as a little bit ambiguous.
He sayt:
" Ray.
10 Booher, because he was on my shift."
Wouldlyou read that to 11 mean anybody who was on my shift would have added water?
Or
.12 -
would you read it some other way?
I'm not sure how-to read
(
1 13 it myself.
14 A
I can't justify anything'that Mr. Hartman has 15 commented on in the past.
But I did not manipulate any leak 16 rates.
r 17 Q
You indicated that your relationship with Hartman 18 was professional, meaning, I think, that you got the job done 19 working in the same room but you weren't close.
Can you 20 think of any reason why, if, as you characterize Hartman's 21 statement, it's just a false statement, why he would have 22 some vindictive feeling towards you?
23 A
No, I don't.
Socially we got along okay also.
I 24 do not know why he made the statement.
()
25 0
I take it you are familiar with both the Hartman i
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 and Booher statements about what they did.
Now, I'm not 2
talking specifically about you, necessarily, but about what 3
they did in terms of manipulating leak rate tests.
4-MR. MC BRIDE:
Excuse me, Judge Kelley, you said 5
Hartman.and Booher's statements?
6 JUDGE KELLEY:
Forgive me.
Blessing.
I'm 7
sorry.
8 BY JUDGE KELLEY:
9 Q
You are familiar with their statements that are in 10 the record?
11 A
I believe so.
12 Q
And here is Hartman describing various'different 13 techniques that he had for manipulating leak rate tests, 14 involving both hydrogen and water additions.
4 15 Here is Booher saying --
16 MR. GEPHART:
Blessing.
17 JUDGE KELLEY:
I'm very sorry.
The names --
18 forgive me.
19 BY JUDGE KELLEY:
20 Q
Here is Blessing saying somewhat more briefly, in 21 a couple of interviews with the NRC, and speaking somewhat 22 more generally, that he would add hydrogen in an effort to 23 change leak rate results.
He wasn't successful very often, 24 he says, but he did it.
And he said he thought everybody
()
25 knew it, that it was common knowledge throughout, at least on ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
21,2 3.m, s._ m m..,.
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-1 his shift and more broadly among operators at the plant.
2 So, if two out of the three CROs, Hartman and 3
Blessing, are saying, yes, sure, we were manipulating tests, 4
why is it that you wouldn't at least know what they were 5-
'doing?
Wouldn't they have to have actively concealed what 6
they were doing from you, in order for your testimony to be 7
consistent with theirs?
8 A
I would think they could manipulate leak rates, if 9
in fact they did, without my knowing it.
10 Q
Based on what I've heard here, I would agree with 11 you it's possible.
Maybe not a lot of the times, maybe not
~12 all the times, but sometimes, at least, if I wanted to 13 manipulate a leak rate test with water or~ hydrogen I might be.
14 able to do it without the other guy in the. room knowing about 15 it.
But why would they conceal it from you, if that's what 16 they were doing?
17 A
I don't know, sir.
18 Q
I would like to go over with you'two or three o'f 19 the tests that you were involved in, either as CRO or 20 operator on the panel.
Can we look at NRR-94, first of all?
21 MR. MC BRIDE:
I'll get it for him.
22 THE WITNESS:
Okay.
23 BY JUDGE KELLEY:
24 Q
Looking'at 94, just to establish two or three 1 ()
25 things about it -- have you got 94?
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BRT 1
A Yes, I'do.
'2 Q
The arrangement here begins with the computer 3
printout page followed by a-Xerox copy of the CRO log, 4
followed by -- sometimes several~pages'-- and then followed
-5 by the~ strip chart, makeup tank strip chart.
6 Looking at the_first pa~ge, the computer printout, 7
NRR test 94 was run on the 13th of January,
'79, between.9:37 8
and 10:37 in the morning.
The operator, surveillance 9
operator is Hartman; correct?
Judging by his signature 10 there?
11
'A Yes, sir.
12 Q
And Ken Hoyt approved it as foreman?
O 13 A
Yes, sir.
14 Q
And this showed a leak rate of.269 unidentified 15 leak rate.
16 A
Okay.
Yes, sir.
17 Q
If the turn the page, the first Xerox copy of the 18 logbook'shows you signing in at 0700, I gather; is that 19 right?
20 A
Yes, sir.
21 Q-And the leak rate test we are talking about was 22 run between 9:37 and 10:37, as indicated there in the left 23 margin.
The heavy ink markings there, the arrows and all of 24 that, that's NRR-write-in there.
()
25 Then, if you skip over to the makeup tank strip ACE-FEDERAL. REPORTERS, INC.
ac:347 37tu Nation.iae coserage s m 3 S 6646
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chart you'll see that test number 94 is bracketed with the 2
heavy ink lines a little bit left of center with the time 3
marked up at the top.
4 I'll just note for the record that once again 5
there's no complete agreement between the strip chart and 6
clock time.
Typically it's off.
7 Do you recall that very often the makeup tank 8
strip chart time would be off from clock time to some degree?
9 A
Not only,the makeup tank but most of the charts.
10 Q
off clock time?
11 A
Yes, sir.
12 Q
Okay.
Sure.
And what has been done here, the NRR
~
13 analysts have attempted.to historically establish when things-14 happened by cross referencing, let's say log entries which 15 show clock time and then finding that on the strip chart to 16 the extent that that is possible.
That, sometimes, I think 17 is pretty accurate.
Sometimes it's more-debatable.
18 But the main thing I wanted to look at here, if
-19 you look at the strip chart at about, what, 9:45 clock time, 20 you see a rather sharp rise in the trace; correct?
21 A
It looks like more -- like 10:00 a.m.
22 Q
Okay.
23 A
But, yes, there is a sharp increase.
24
.Q Right.
Then at the bottom there's two typed
()
25 lines.
That, again, is the NRR analysis of what happened i
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1 here.
They say that this reflects a water addition of 117 2
gallons at 9:50 and they note that it was logged in the log 3
but not included in the calculation.
4 Just looking back at the log, there is an entry at 5
10:00, " batched.117 gallons of water to makeup tank."
6 A
Yes, sir.
7 Q
So the log time in the time indicated at the 8
bottom of the strip chart is 10 minutes off, 10:00 versus 9
9:50.
.But, in_any case, the 9:37-10:37 time, it.would 10 clearly fall within the leak rate test; correct?
The water 11 addition?
12 A
Yes, sir.
O 13 Q
When you say that this was a batched water 14 addition, you were on the panel.
I would assume that you as 15 panel operator would have been the person who would have 16 added the water; correct?
17 A
Yes, sir.
18 Q
And by " batched," that means that you did it by 19 means of the batch controller; is that the right term?
20 A
Yes, sir.
21 Q
And by that I mean there was on the panel there a i
22
-- what will I call it, a knob?
A valve?
23 A
A box.
24 Q
A box.
Okay.
()
25 A
Okay.
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Q I can't describe it very well because it's not 2
there anymore.
But it used to be and that was -- I was shown 3
this black hole in the panel where there used to.be a batch 4
controller, last week.
But you can dial the amount you want,.
5 correct, on the box?
6' A
That's why I'm taking such a long time.
I don't 7
remember exactly what the box looked like nor how you 8
performed water addition.
But I do remember there~was a box 9
and its purpose was to add amounts of water.
10 Q
I guess what I'm trying to get at.is, I have 11 understood that the batch controller ir something where.you
~
12 can tell this machine Put a certain amount of water in the g,
13 makeup tank.
You dial it, you set it to that setting; 14 correct?
15 A
Whatever you do; yes, sir._
16 Q
And then it proceeds to do that and then it shows 17 you some kind of result.
Here it shows you a result of 117 18 gallons.
19 A
Yes, sir.
4 20 Q
As opposed to -- there are other ways you can put 21 water.in the makeup tank other than.the batch controller, are i
22 there not?
It's not the only way that one can get it in?
i 23 A
There has to be because I can remember the batch 24 controller being out of service frequently --
25 Q
And --
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 A
-- but I don't remember how you performed that.
2 Q
Maybe we'll get to that later.
But in any case, 3
the log indicates this was batched in.
This particular entry 4
-- not entry -- this particular injection of 117 gallons was 5
put in through a batch controller; correct?
At least the log 6
so indicates?
7 A
I would think so; yes, sir.
8 Q
And what you get on the strip chart, as I see it, 9
is a sharp, almost vertical rise,~which would indicate to me 10 that that 117 gallons went into the makeup tank in a matter 11-of -.how much time would you say?
12 A
Well, let's see here.
10:00, 11:00 -- each one of 13 those lines'is 15 minutes, I think.
You are talking about 7 14 minutes, approximately.
I think each division of the chart i
15 is 15 minutes.
16 Q
Well, if that's so, though, I'm looking from the 17 bottom up to the top of that water addition.
18 A
Yes, sir.
19 Q
And I see an almost vertical line which -- if it 20 were going to take 15 minutes, it would be lying across like 21 that at a 45-degree angle, would it not, slicing that box?
22 A
Yes, sir.
23 Q
Since it isn't doing that, I would guess it would 1
24 take two or three minutes for the water to go on.
()
25 A
Well, the way I read this particular chart is you i
\\
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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28690.0-i j BRT-4194 1
take the 10:00 a.m. dark line, vertical line, take the next 2
vertical line, which is'a-15-minute increment, and it's 3
approximately one half of that 15-minute increment for the 4
vertical line to go from the bottom to the top.
-5 Q
Let's do this slow.
I guess I'm not with you.
6 Can I show you a comparison?
Take a look to the right where 7
they put in 1200 gallons, apparently with a batch 8
controller.
9 MR. MC BRIDE:
I'm sorry, at 1200 hours0.0139 days <br />0.333 hours <br />0.00198 weeks <br />4.566e-4 months <br /> it's 10 400 -- 900?
The 9 looks like a 4.
11 BY JUDGE KELLEY:
12 Q
900 gallons at noon?
(
13 A
Yes, sir.
14 Q
Now, that whole 900 gallons went in in what?
-15 A
I'd say 20 minutes, thereabouts.
16 Q
Give or take.
Okay, 20 minutes.
17 A
Okay.
18 Q
So if it could go in at a rate of 2-minutes per 19 100 gallons, very roughly -- when you turn the batch 20 controller on a pump starts to activate and it pushes water 21 into the makeup tank; right?
22 A
I don't remember that.
23 Q
I'm just assuming it.
How else would it get 24 there?
Wouldn't you turn on a pump?
- ()
25 A
The demin water tank may have been pressurized.
I 4
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 don't know.
Pressurized water went into the' tank; yes, sir.
2 Q
Well, at any case, what I'm looking at is the 3'
rate.
I don't want to 'e obscure here.
It seems to me when b
4 you use the batch controller you get water.into the tank 5
pretty fast.
You'get an almost vertical line showing water 6
going in and that's a rather distinctive, I think, signature 7
of batch control water additions.
At least on this 8
indicator --
9 A
Sure.
10 JUDGE KELLEY:
Why don't we'take -- I think that's 11 really it on this test.
Why don't we take a coffee break, 10 12 minutes or so and we'll pick up again.
O#
13 (Recess.)
14 JUDGE KELLEY:
Let's go back on the record.
15 Mr. Gephart indicated' interest in making a clarification.
Go 16 ahead.
17 MR. GEPHART:
Yes, Judge Kelley.
We were more 18 interested in substance than anything else with Mr. Booher's 19 prepared statement.
I would like to have a correction made 20 EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. GEPHART:
22 Q
Mr. Booher, you have the statement in front of 23 you?
24 A
Yes, sir.
()
25 Q
And you want to make a correction, I believe, on ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202 347-3700 Nationwide Coserage 8ak33MM6
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()
BRT 4196 1
page 1 as to address and current employment?
2 A
Yes, sir.
Since this statement was made I have 3
recently moved to Sacramento, California, and I'm working at
~4 a nuclear power plant there as a lead office planner during 5
an outage at that facility.
6 JUDGE KELLEY:
Is that what we know as SMUD?
7 THE WITNESS:
That is SMUD.
8 JUDGE KELLEY:
All right.
Thank you.
9 EXAMINATION BY THE BOARD 10 BY JUDGE KELLEY:
11 Q
Just a couple of more points.
We.are back on the 12 record now; right?
13 About test 94 we were looking at.
Again,.
that 14 indicates that Hartman was the operator, was the surveillance 15 CRO and you were on the panel and you did log that addition 16 during the test.
17 Do you have any thought as to why Mr. Hartman did 18 not include that amount in the calculation of the leak rate?
19 I'm just looking at the questions on the computer printout 20 and it says "0."
No indication of water addition.
21 A.
No, I don't.
I have no idea why he didn't add 22 that to the computer leak rate program.
It may have -- he 23 may have forgot to look in the logbook of he may have forgot
- 24 to.even, ask me if~there were any water ad<litions during that
()
25 particular time period.
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-37(M)
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1' Q
Well, it. appears to me that the'noninclusion of 2
.this 117 gallons -- correct me if I'm wrong,'but 630 gallons 3
in a test run over 1 hour1.157407e-5 days <br />2.777778e-4 hours <br />1.653439e-6 weeks <br />3.805e-7 months <br /> has an effect of 1 gallon, right, 4
per minute?
5 A
Yes, sir.
6 Q
117 gallons is almost-120,.which is pretty close
.7 to.2 gallons a minute.
8 A
Yes, sir.
^
9 Q
So,'if you didn't include that amount here, the i
10 result indicated by the computer is.2639 -- say.3 gallons 11 per minute.
.That would indicate to me that the. inclusion of 12 the 117 in the calculation would have produced a leak rate of 3.
'13 something like 2.2; right?
14 A
Yes, sir.
15 Q
so the failure to include it has a rather dramatic 16 effect on the bottom line, does it not?
4 17 A
Yes, sir.
18 Q
Since you did log it, you indicated it should have 19 been Hartman's responsibility as a surveillance operator to 20 check the log?
21 A
Yes, sir.
22 Q
There it is in the log -- this strikes me as very i
23 sloppy, frankly, and I'm not sure it has anything to do with 2
24 you -- I assume it's Hartman's problem -- but not to include
()
25-something that's right in the log and it throws you off by l
ACE-FEDERAL. REPORTERS, INC.
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such a huge amount strikes me as pretty sloppy.
Would.you
-2 agree?
'3 A
Yes, sir.
A little bit of background on that.
4 Compared to how I've performed on the shift at 5
different facilities and.different positions in different 6
facilities since those days at TMI, looking.back on those
.7-operations we performed, they were very sloppy.
Lack of 8.
communications is one item I can recognize right now.
f 9
Q Then Hoyt proceeds to approve it.
10 What do you recall about his process of approval?
11 What db you recall him doing, when you presented him with a
.12 computer printout that stated a leak rate of under a gallon a O
13 minute, whatever it might have been, what did he do?
i 14 A
I would assume he went over the leak rate 15 calculation.
16 Q
Well, in what sense, though?
17 A
Probably to verify the plant was in a stable l
18 condition and look at the bottom line leak rate result.
I 19 don't know what specifics he reviewed ~during-his review i'
20 period.
l 21 Q
What'is your recollection, though,'about his i
22 review?
Was it perfunctory?
Or did he actually study the
}
23 numbers, check the log, do other things to satisfy himself
}
24 that the leak rate test was correct?
{- ( )
25 A
I don't remember, i{
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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Q This would suggest, though, would it-not,.that he 2
didn't check the log?
3 A
I don't think he'd have to check the log --
4 Q
For a water addition, I mean.
5 A
Yes, sir.
6 Q
Do you recall this time frame?
This is Jant'ary 7
13, 1979; mid-January
'79, about three months before the 8
accident, a little' bit 'more.
If, in fact, you needed to add 9
almost 120 gallons of water to get this -- well, let me 10 rephrase that.
11 Here'is a case where you got a leak rate of.26, 12 round off to
.3, which is fine, but you know by looking at 13 the log that it wasn't anywhere near that.
You added all 14 this water to come up with this.
Was that at a time when it 15 was difficult, do you recall, to-obtain a leak rate under 1
~
16 gallon per minute?
17 A
I can' remember as time elapsed closer to the 18 accident, getting a leak rate within limits was harder.
19 Q
What is striking me -- and we heard a lot of testimony to that effect and I think typically it comes a 20 21 little later than January but your statement has a lot of 22 agreement from other people.
But, still, looking at the 23 record now and realizing that this leak rate, this " good" 24 leak rate, in quotes, of.3 gallons per minute, was actually
()
25 off by at least a factor of 2 gallons a minute -- it wasn't ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
20L347-37W Nuionwide Coverage 8@336-6M6
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even close, in other words -- was that a period of time when 2
getting such a nice, low leak rate would have been rather 3
surprising?
Do you have any recollection about that?
4 A
Yes, sir.
I-agree.
5 Q
Well then, if-you were on the panel and you are 6
working in some degree of coordination with Hartman and along 7
comes Hartman with this marvelous leak rate,
.3, and~if 8
~that's sort of a surprising result, wouldn't that have caught 9
your attention?
I realize you are riot primarily responsible 10 for that test, but wouldn't that have seemed to you to be a 11 rather surprising result,-even leading you to say:
- Hey,
~
12 Hartman, did you include that water in the calculation?
He O
13 would'say:
What water?
And then you could tell him about 14 the.117 gallons.
15 A
That would be. called good communicatione and 16 communications is something we didn't have back then, as I 17 realize now.
18 Q
Let's turn over to. test 148.
If you want to just 19 take a minute to look at the computer -- it's a computer 20 printout, couple of pages of log followed by copies of the 21 makeup tank strip chart.
Okay?
22 A
Yes, sir.
23 Q
Now, just to identify it a bit and identify the 24 players, number 148 was run on the 15th of March of
'79,
()
25 between 4:50 and 5:50 in the morning'.
In this case you were i
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 the surveillance operator.
It was approved by Bernard Smith
~
2 who, I understand, is shift supervisor; correct?
3-A Yes, sir.
4 Q
Would that have been a case when Hoyt was just off 5
doing something else or would you have a particular 6
recollection?
7 A
In those days, the shift supervisor and shift 8
foreman would'go for tours in the plant to check plant 9
status.
Evidently Mr. Hoyt was taking a plant tour at this 10 time.
11 Q
I-don't mean to suggest it's particularly
~ ignificant.
I just wanted to clear that up, if we could.
12 s
13 Now, we indicated you are the surveillance CRO and 14 Mr. Blessing is on the panel.
So I gather he is licensed, at 15 least at that time.
16 A
That's not necessarily true.
He may have been a 17 trainee under Hartman, perhaps.
18 Q
Looking over his shoulder, do you mean?
19 A
Exactly.
20 Q
If we look at the strip chart for test 148, again 21 you can see that the time is bracketed in the heavy line 22 drawn in by the NRR analyst.
They show the location of 4:50 23 to 5:50 on the strip chart.
In this instance the times seem 1
24 to be pretty much in agreement'.
- ()
25 Again, their analysis is towards the bottom of the 1
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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i page.
They read this strip chart as indicating-a water 2'
addition of 100 gallons starting at 5:25, a little more than' 3
halfway through the test and they note that-there is no log 4
entry corresponding to that and also that there is no 5
inclusion of water in the calculation.
The other thing of i
6 interest is that they refer to this as a jogged, 7
j-o-g-g-e-d, water addition.
8 Are you familiar with the term " jogged water
.9 addition"?
10 A
I.have heard of it.
11 Q
What does it mean to you?
d 12 A
" Jogged" means adding amounts in a slow rate.
13 Q
That's my understanding, too.
I don't know as 14 we've ever had a definition on the record but that seems to 15 be the context in which it is used.
i
-16 Now, if you can recall our discussion of that last 17 test, 94, where there was this sharp jump when there was the 18 batched addition, how would one make a jogged water addition 1
19 to the makeup tank as a matter of mechanics?
How do you do 20 it?
21 A
I don't know.
l 22 Q
Well, first of all, the batch controller, we 23 talked about that some earlier.
Is it possible to operate j
24 the batch controller in such a way that water goes in
()
25 relatively gradually, as opposed to a fairly quick injection?
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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( ). BRT 4203
.1 A
I don't remember if' boric acid went through.the 2
batch controller or not.
But boric acid went in at slow 3
rates.
4 Q
Do you remember -- and believe me, I'm in the dark 5
here, too; I don't know how to run a batch controller -- but 6
-- that's what I would like to get from you.
7 I-can imagine setting a batch controller, in 8
effect telling the batch controller, put 300 gallons in the 9
makeup tank, and hitting a button and it would do so.
10 A
Right.
11 Q
And I assume in a high speed way it would produce 12 almost a vertical line on that strip chart; right?
13 A
Yes, sir.
14 Q
Is there any other way that those batch 15 controllers could be operated?
16 A
I think there's a bypass around the batch 17 controller when the batch controller.is out of service.
18 There would have to be.
19 Q
It would give you a slow injection of water 20 relative to the quick injection?
21 A
I wouldn't know how to do that.
22 Q
Apart from the batch controller, are there other 23 ways to. feed water into the makeup tank?
24 A
Boric acid, I think, has a different source of
()
25 liquid.
i ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Coserage 80rA346M6
28690.0
,_si )
BRT 4204 l'
Q
'No.
Just water.
Just plain old water.
Well, I 2
guess we don't use plain old water.
Demineralized water, 3
whatever kind of water one puts in?
4 A
I can't think of any other way.
5 Q
only through the batch controller?
6 A
Or associated bypass.
-7 Q
Can you elaborate a little bit on what this bypass 8
involves?
9 A
If I remember correctly, just open a valve and 10 water goes in.
11 Q
So if you opened the valve halfway water goes in' 12 more slowly?
13 A
If that was possible.
But I think it was an 14 air-or motor-operated valve.
If that was the case it would, 15 I think, go all the way to the open position.
But I don't 16 remember exactly how that batch controller and its bypass 17 worked.
18 Q
Well, obviously all I am trying to understand is 19 Staff analysts say this looks like a jogged water addition 20 and I see the difference on the strip chart.
It is not a j
21 sharp vertical rise.
It's a leveling out of the trace.
And 22 if they are right -- that's a very simple question:
How did 23 you do that?
You don't know; right?
Neither do I.
24 A
Yes, sir.
(f 25 0
So the two of us are sort of stuck.
But looking ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 80k33MM6
(
. ~. _,.. _.
28690.0
.( )
BRT 4205 1
at that makeup tank trace, do you agree that what appears on 2
the trace'at about -- they say 5:25, about a little more than 3
halfway through the test, there's a leveling out of.the 4
trace?
5 A
Yes, sir.
That's obvious.
6 Q
Okay.
And that, it seems to me, appears to 7
continue for a time interval of, from the beginning of that 8
leveling out through the end of the test of, what, 25 9
minutes?
10 A
It appears to be 25 minutes.
11
-Q And then it starts to drop off again at the 12 previous rate of decline; is that fair?
7,
'\\-
13 A
Yes, sir.
14 Q
What would you make of that particular part of the
.15 trace?
What would you attribute it to?
16 A
It looks to me like it could be a plant parameter 17 change.
If primary coolant system temperature would increase 18 there would be less of a makeup situation required and the 19 makeup tank would hold at a more stable level.
20 Q
Temperature change-in the reactor could have this 21 effect?
22 A
Yes, sir.
23 Q
Where it appears, just at a glance, to be a change j
24 in water level, that's not a real change in water level?
()
25 A
I don't know.
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202 147-3700 Nationwide Coserage 80k336-6646
286'90.0
,_s BRT 4206 (ss) 1
-Q Or would the temperature change actually change 2
the mass of the water, thereby changing the level?
3 A
Well, if a temperature should increase in the 4
primary coolant system, the volume, as you said, would 5
increase.
The pressurizer level would increase and, 6
therefore, reduce the nee'd for makeup to the-primary coolant 7
system.
With a decrease in makeup, the makeup tank level 8
would appear to be more stable-or level off.
And exactly the 9
opposite on a temperature decrease.
It would make the makeup 10 tank level look like a straight line down, so to speak.
11 BY JUDGE CARPENTER:
12 Q
Mr. Booher, to follow up on your comment that 13.
there might have been changes in plant, would you turn to the 14 log for test 1478.
15 A
Yes, sir.
16 Q
On my copy of the NRR report there is a "58" in 17 the upper left-hand corner.
Do ycu see that?
18 A
58?
19 Q
Upper left-hand corner.
I just want to be sure we 20 are looking at the same page.
21 A
Yes, sir.
A log page number.
Yes, sir.
22 Q
Right.
Now, at 0527 it reads:
" Pressurized GEN.
23 to 76 pounds of hydrogen pressure."
I guess it says.
What 24 does that mean?
()
25 A
That entry refers to hydrogen being added to the ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347 3700 -
Nationwide Cmerage 800-346M6
ye a;g
' 6 -)
. i, -
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' Ik C 'l
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'28690.0
.h BRT' 4207 b
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1 main electrical generator in the turbine building and, 2
evidently, Mr. Blessing had the generator pressure increased 3
to 76 pounds.
L 4
Q Does that represent a change in plant conditions 4
5 or is it just a routine adjustment on hydrogen pressure?-
N 6,
A That would have no effect on the primary coolant s
7
- system.
m iu i
8 Q
The next entry is 0530.
Can you translate the 9'
~ hieroglyphics for me, please?
~10 A
"DF -- 1-A' refers to emergency diesel generator 3 11 alpha.
And it started in 7 seconds from a dead status, 12 Q
Does that have any relationship to the-reactor s
a
' ('13 coolant system?
Any effect on the reactor coolant system?
N
- ,w v
.-'14 A
No, sir.
s
'd 15 4 0 The next entry is 0535.
Once again, hieroglyphics s
16 that I don't understand?
v 17 A-Well " breaker."
Evidently BKR refers to 18 electrical breaker 2-A-1 E2, and " pull to lock."
I fail to 19 remember what 2-A-1 E2 re'fers'.to.
It is some breaker.
And
.3
\\
~'
t 20 with a'n.E in it, 1 think it's a safeguards breaker.
But I d
'\\
21 don't remember what that breaker -- what it supplied-power to 22 or - f roir..
23
'Q Can you remember whether or not that breaker would i
a, N
l 24
, have an effect on " plant conditions" in terms of --
25 A
I would guess not.
i ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
~.,. _.. _. _.. _.. _ ' _ _. -
202.147 M00 Nationwide Coverage 8@3NM6
28690.0 I~-
V)
BRT 4208 1
Q Is that a common action, pulling a' breaker?
2 A
PTL?
3 Q
Yes.
4
'A Yes, sir.
5 Q
So it doesn't indicate to you anything unusual is 6
going on?
7 A
Just by that terminology; no, sir.
8 Q
What does " pull to lock" mean?
9 A
Okay.
" Pull to lock" means grabbing a pistol-grip 10 handle, twisting it in a certain direction -- if I remember 11 correctly, in a counterclockwise direction -- and then l
12 pulling it in a direction away from the console.
The handle l
13 would stay in that position and that would interlock the
)
l 14 breaker from changing its current position.
15 Q
Where were these breakers located?
There's a 16 picture of the control room up there, if that can refresh l
17 your memory.
18 A
Most of the breakers were located on a panel, the 19 console which is closest to you~1n the picture.
It is the 20 one with the. telephone in the center of the picture.
21 One thing about Three Mile Island, they had a good 22 electrical panel as a MEMIC, and in that MEMIC system they 23 had breakers that controlled power.
And those breakers had a 24 pull-to-lock position, PTL.
When you want the breaker not to
-( )
25 change position you would select that option on the handle.
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3hX)
Nationwide Cmerage 80t>336-6M6
28690.0 BRT 4209 q.,
~
1
'I would assume that that particular breaker is on 2
that panel.
3 Q
Then at'0545 the log says he started "CWP-1-A."
l 4
What is.CWP-1-A?
5 A
That would indicate cire water.
P would indicate 6
pump.
1-A would mean the alpha pump.
I 7
So, John Blessing started circ water pump alpha.
l l
8 Q
Wh'at does that do in terms of plant conditions
[
9 with respect to'this surveillance test?
l 10 A
It would have.a potential effect.
Starting a circ l
11 water pump would essentially increase cooling to the main l
l 12 condenser, which should increase condenser. vacuum, which 1
(:)
13 should increase plant efficiency, so to. speak, and that may i
.14 have an effect on the primary coolant system.
15 Q
Where are the controls that he would have gone to 16 to start this circulating water pump?
l 17 A
Geez -- if I remember. correctly, all support 18.
systems are on the back upright panels.
If I could have some 19 time I could go over and look at the picture and try to 20 locate them but I don't remember where they are located in 21 the control room.
It wasn't a normal occurrence to be 22 starting and stopping those pumps.
23
.Q.
This is.somewhat of a surprise at 5:00, almost 24 6:00 in the morning, all of a sudden he starts the
()
25 circulating water pump?
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-37(x)
Nationwide Coserage RXK336 & m
28690.0
,s()
BRT 4210 1
A That is surprising to me too, sir.
2 Q
There are a number of these circulating' water 3
puaps, are there?
Were there?
4 A
There were 4 or 6 of them.
I forget how many.
5 But typically you keep them all running for increased plant 6
efficiency.
7 Q
Well, in March would that necessarily'tne so?
8 A
Pennsylvania may have been cold in March.
You may 9
not need all of the cire water pumps.
10 Q
Well, to summarize this, you don't see during the 11 time period of this test, any entry in-the log which would 12 reflect change of plant conditions with respect to the leak
_s 13 rate surveillance test requirement of steady state?
14 A
Leak rate test started at 0450 and was completed 15 at 0550.
And if fue, indeed, did start.that circ water pump 16 at 5:45, which is five minutes away from the end of the leak 17 rate surveillance, I can't see how that would have an effect 18 on that chart.
19
'Q What about the condition that led him to decide to 20 ;
turn it on?
21 i A
I would have no idea why he turned that particular 22 pump on at that time.
23 Q
Well, this involved the supply of water to the 24 condenser, which is somewhat removed from the primary reactor i
(f 25 coolant system?
l 1
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Coserage MK336-646
28690.0
[,i BRT 4211
%)
1 A
Yes, sir.
A circ water. pump would take a suction 2
from those famous towers and pump it through the condenser 3
and return it to those towers as a cooling method for 4
quenching the steam going through the main turbine.
5 Q
With an effect, primarily, on the secondary 6
system?
7
.A Yes, sir.
8 JUDGE CARPENTER:
Thank you very much.
I just 9
wanted to see what was going on during that hour.
10 BY JUDGE KELLEY:
11 Q
We were talking about possible reasons why the 12 makeup tank strip chart would level out as we discussed.
You 13 indicated that it might be a result of temperature changes in 14 the primary system; right?
15 A
Yes, sir.
16 Q
Is.that something we can determine?
I have been 17 just.looking at.the computer printout, test 142.
There are a 18 number of data points included on the sheet.
I was looking 19 particularly at the T av, if that's how it's pronounced, 20 entry.
And it shows that piece of data at the beginning and 21 end of the test with a change of.172.
22 By the way, I think those numbers written in are 23 NRR calculations.
But that calculation shows as a bottom 24 line 13.7 gallons.
Would that mean 13.7 gallon difference in
()
25 mass?
Or what would that mean to you?
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Cmerage 801346M6
28690.0 f).BRT 4212 s-1 A
It looks to me, from viewing some of the.other 2
parameters, that pressurizer level increased'over the leak 3
rate period.
That would cause the makeup tank level to 4
become more horizontal.
Like it's shown on the graph.
5 Why pressurizer level went up 1.411 inches, I 6
don't know. 'That may be because T av went up 1.72 degrees.
7 Q
You indicated the temperature rise might account 8
for the level.
Was that consistent with what 'we see on the 9
computer printout here, a change of.172 change in 10 temperature?
11 A
That may be the effect; yes, sir.
12 Q
I'm looking for help here.
I frankly don't know 0,.
13 what 13.7 gallons means.
I thought it might mean that it' 14 would account for a difference of, in the level', of 13.7 15
-gallons, which isn't.very much.
Certainly a lot less than 16 the 100 that's referred to as jogged water, but I may be 17 misreading this.
18 A
And I don't remember.
There's a thumb rule for, 19 let's see, gallons per inch in the pressurizer versus --
20
-Q Yes.
It's 30 gallons per inch?
21 A
Some thumb rule like that, but I. don't remember 22 what the actual thumb rule was.
23
.Q Well, I just told you.
30 gallons per inch, so 24 100 gallons is a little bit more than 3 inches, which is
()
25 about what that offset is, roughly.
Wouldn't you agree?
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 80433MM6
28690.0 4213 1
A Yes, sir.
2 Q
So, again, I'm groping a bit, but looking at the 3
computer printout page under T av, there's a reference to 4
13.7.
If that means that the difference that could make in 5
the makeup tank wouldn't be very significant, it wouldn't be 6
anywhere near the amount shown on the trace, would it?
7 A
No, sir.
S'o I can't -- I don't know why the 8
makeup tank level was straightened out at that particular 9
point.
10 MR. MC BRIDE:
Judge Kelley, a point of 11 clarification, in the Newtonian world, temperature changes 12 don't change mass, they change density.
O 13 JUDGE KELLEY:
Fine.
14 BY JUDGE KELLEY:
15 Q
In connection with running this test, Mr. Booher,.
16 would you as a matter of routine have looked at the strip 17 chart?
18 A
Yes, sir.
When I had the panel; sure.
19 Q
Okay.
But in this particular test you didn't have 20-the panel, you were the surveillance operator; correct?
21 A
Yes, sir.
22 Q
So, in that situation, would you look at the strip 23 chart?
24 A
No.
)
25 Q
If you had looked at the strip chart in this ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347 3700 Nationwide Coserage 80433MM6
28690.0 BRT 4214 1
particular case, would you have regarded this as a valid 2
test?
3 A
I don't know but I would inquire why the makeup 4
tank level decrease -- decreased.
5 Q
So you would have looked into it, in any case?
6 A
Yes, sir.
7 Q
But you would have considered it to be the job of 8
the panel operator to look at the strip chart?
9 A
Yes, sir.
10 Q
Did you do that' routinely when you were panel 11 operator?
12 A
Yes, sir.
.O#
13 Q
But did you do it just as a matter of part of your 14 job to keep an eye on the trace?
Or did you do it in 15 relationship to leak rate tests?
16 A
I did it because it is a good operating practice 17 to keep conscious.of plant parameters.
Not only would I look 18 at makeup. tank level but.also T av, THTC, rod position, 19 pressurizer level, various parameters that would indicate a 20 potential change.
21 Q
My-question ~is, did you look at strip charts in 22 specific relationship.to leak rate tests?
23 A
No, sir.
24 Q
Okay.
Let me ask you to assume that this may
()
25 reflect a, what we are calling a jogged water addition; that ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
N2 347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 80433MM6.
28690.0
, ( )
BRT 4215 1-is to say', gradual addition of water as opposed to a fast
~
2 one.
Can you suggest any valid plant-related reason to add 3
water in that fashion?
4 A
Waterwise; no, sir.
5 Q
Anywise?
'6 A
Like'I said before, boric ~ acid goes in at a slow 7
rate.
8_
Q But water addition?
Is there any reason you can 9'
think of to add water very gradually as opposed to pumping it l
10 in the way the batch controller apparently pumps it in most 11 of the time?
12 MR. MC BRIDE:
Excuse me, Judge Kelley, but there d
13 seems to be perhaps a disconnect between you and the
+
14 witness.
Boric acid, I think you could put to the witness 15 the question whether boric acid is-added in solution, in 16 water solution, and so it actually does constitute a water 17 addition of a different sort.
18 BY JUDGE KELLEY:
19.
Q Okay.
You were-indicating -- would you agree with 20 counsel that you don't put pure boric' acid in, you put in a 21 solution of water and boric acid'; is that correct?
22' A
I think there's a mixing T in there.somewhere in 23
'the system.
I don't remember where that mixing T is located 24 in relationship to the makeup _ tank.
()
25 Q
'You mean before the makeup tank?
j ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
- * " " " ~ ~
..-. O r""
1
28690.0 fs' BRT 4216 (v) 1 A
It would have to be-before.the makeup tank 2
.somewhere.
I don't know how the batch controller was related 3
to the mixing T in the boric acid system.
I don't remember.
4 Q
Well, you can see what I'm after here.
5 A
Yes.
6 Q
.Let's assume that.the Staff is right and that 7
whatever this is, whether it's boric acid or water, got 8
jogged in at some gradual rate.
Since it has been suggested 9
that jogging water'is one way to manipulate a leak-rate test, 10 I would like to know whether there's any reason to jog water 11 in other than that?
That's what I'm preparing for.
Do you 12 know of any such reason?
.]
13 A
I don't know of any reasons to put water into the 14 makeup tank at a slow rate.
15 Q
Okay.
Assume for the moment, again, that that's 16 what happened in test 148.
But Blessing is on the panel; 17' right?
And you are the surveillance man in that particular 18 test.
19 A
Yes, sir.
20 Q
If Blessing were doing the water addition here and 21 he were jogging w'ater -- and I should add I don't believe
~
22 that he has said'that he did do that; I believe he simply 23
-said that he added hydrogen.
But, in any case, it's a CRO 24 operator, other than you.
Assuming that another person other
{)
25 than you were jogging water in to affect a leak. rate test, ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 2336-6M6
28690.0
( })
BRT 4217 1
would they -
do you think they would tell you that.or.not?
2 A
I don't think anybody would tell me if they were
-3 manipulating a leak rate.
4 Q
But you are the guy who is going to sign.for it; 5
right?
6 A
I guess, especially in that case.
7 Q
In my hypothetical -- let's take one.
You are the 8
operator who has got surveillance duties and you are the one 9
who is going to sign for it.
10 A
I wouldn't expect them to tell me if they were 11 trying to' manipulate something if I'm going to sign for it.
12 In this particular case I did sign for this test.
13 Q
Pardon?
~
~
14 A
In this particular test I did sign.
15 Q
148.
Yes.
16 A
148.
Yes, sir.
17 Q
Right.
But if they do that to manipulate a test 18
-- and by "do that," I mean jog water in, and they are i
19 jogging it -- in my mind anyway, if it's their intent to 20 manipulate the test the reason they are jogging is so it l
21 won't show up on the strip chart, at least not as obviously 22
'as.it.would if it were batched in.
It's a way of sneaking 23 water in, so to speak.
24 They are doing that and you are the operator on
()
25-surveillance.
Then the situation, as I see it, is that they ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347 3700 Nationude Coserage R G 330-( M 6-
'28690.0
(,)
BRT.
4218
~
1 are causing you to make a false certification; isn't that 4
2 fair?
If you don't know?
3 A
Since I don't normally look at the makeup tank 4
charts and only a-visual looking at~the logbook, that is a 5
fair statement.
6 lQ Do you think that either Hartman or~ Blessing would f
7-have done that to you?
8 A
Obviously one of them has, if Hal has alleged that 9
he has done it.
Obviously he has performed that action.
10 Q
We.have been talking about 148'and.the record 11 shows what it shows about 148.
I'm using it -- here it 12 really is an example.
I'm asking you to assume that somebody O
13 jogged water in, whether it was_ Blessing or Hartman or 14 anybody else than you.
15 When your -- you are running the test as the j '
16 surveillance operator you are going to sign for it and I'm 17 just trying to get.your~ opinion as to whether:your fellow 18 operators would have pulled-the wool over your eyes in that-19 fashion?
20 A
It-is possible.
21
-Q Will you take a look at 143.
This test-is similar l
22 in certain respects and different in others, in terms of what-23
_you were doing.
You were on the panel in this particular
~
24 case as contrasted with being a surveillance operator at
()
25 148.
And here the surveillance operator.was Hartman and it i
l
' ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347 3A10 Nationwide Coserage 800-336-6M6
,,... _ _ _ _. _, _ _. _ _ _, J
28690.0 BRT 4219 1
is approved by Mr. Boyd.
The test was run on the 10th of.
2 March between 3':51-and 4:51 p.m.,
producing a leak rate of 3
.80,
.81.
4 Let's turn over to the Xeroxed. copy of the makeup 5
tank strip chart.
The Staff has analyzed this. test.
Again 6
you can see the times bracketed to the right of center.
They 7
analyzed this to be a-jogged water addition of 80 gallons 8.
starting at 4:40 in the morning.
Again, like 148 there's no 9
log entry.
It is not included in the calculation.
And note 10 it started 11 minutes prior to the end of the test.
11 Mr. Booher, do you see the portion of the strip 12 chart where the Staff believes that this jogged water
-O 13 addition occurred?
j.
14 A ~
There does appear to be a leveling-off at around 15 5:00 a.m.
16.
Q Okay.
I think we are looking at the same place.
17 In comparing 143 and 148, if you just look at the two strip 18 charts, would you say that oneis more the phenomenon -- the 19 level-off phenomenon is more pronounced in one than in.the-20 other?
21 A
They look similar to me.
But, also looking at 22 that-time period, looking.back earlier in the day, there 23 seems to be a leveling-off at around 2130 also, as well as, 24 it looks like, around 0200 or 0215.
(}
25 Q
Let me stick with you here.
I think I see what ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 800-336-6646
. -. -,,,. ~ - _ _ -.-
d 28690.0
[,')
BRT 4220 v-
~
1 you are referring to.
Well, is there one at 12:30?
2 A
12:30?
3 Q
You tell me again.
Which one --
4 A
I was looking at around 2130.
5 Q
2130.
6 A
9:30.
Just a minute --
7 JUDGE CARPENTER:
This is chart time?
8 THE WITNESS:
Chart time; yes, sir.
9 BY JUDGE KELLEY:
10 Q
You are looking at chart. time and 9:30 seems to 11 reflect a level-off.
Let's.see if there's a water entry at 12 that-point.
Is chart-time and log time about the same?
They 7s.
U 13 are pretty close.
14 MR. MC BRIDE:
Judge.Kelley, ju'st for 15 clarification, according to the Stier analysis'in the green 16 volume there is no difference between chart time and clock
'7 time in this particular case.
1 18 JUDGE KELLEY:
Fine.
That's helpful.
Thank~you.
19 BY JUDGE KELLEY:
20 Q
Your shift is 11:00'to 7:00, the night shift-here?.
21 A
Yes,. sir.
22
-Q So do we even have the logged tech spec 11:30 --
23 A
I don't see it here.
24 Q
We could take that up if we had to.
(
25 A
If you want a justification of that leveling-off, J
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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( j BRT-4221 1
I'can't give you one.
2 Q
Well, would you agree with the Staff's. analysis 3
that it is -- that so-called jogged water addition?
4 A.
It appears there.could be one.
5 Q'
Could be.
Well, I think you have-testified before 6
-- am I clear that it's your testimony that you did not add
-7 jogged water to affect the leak rate test?
8 A
Yes,. sir.
9 Q
But you can't suggest another specific explanation 10 for that phenomenon there?
11 A
No, sir.
12 MR. MC BRIDE:
Judge Kelley, I think I've got this 13.
right'.
If you turn back to test 142,-I believe you'll find.
14 the previous page of the log, in case you were looking for 15 it.
16 JUDGE KELLEY:
Good.
17 MS. WAGNER:
That's correct.
It would be page
. llB 47.
4 19 JUDGE KELLEY:
What page?'
20 MR. MC BRIDE:
It has a chart -- or a log numbered 21 47 in the upper right-hand corner.
In my version it has got 22 an NRR reference of--number 142, just below that.
23 JUDGE KELLEY:
Does this show Hemmila?-
24 MR. MC BRIDE:
Yes, sir.
3
(
)-
25 JUDGE KELLEY:
3:00 to 11:00 shift.
So there
. ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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ought to be an entry -- we were looking at 9:00 something --
2 9:15 in the evening.
3 THE WITNESS:
It looks likes it'would be-9:15 to 4
about 9:45.
5 JUDGE KELLEY:
Well, 9:00 is 1900; right?-
~
6 MR. MC. BRIDE:
No, sir.
7 THE WITNESS:
2100.
8 JUDGE KELLEY:
I'm sorry.
2100.
300 gallons of
~
9 demineralized water to the' makeup tank,-2135.
10 THE WITNESS:
2135.
That's indicated by a 11 straight line upward.
Right prior to the' water addition l'<
4 12 seems to be a' leveling-off.
13
-JUDGE KELLEY:
Yes.
The 300 is the vertical 14 line.
15 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
16 JUDGE KELLEY:
So, according to the log,.we don't 17 know why it flattened out-just before that.
At least the. log 18 doesn't tell you, apparently.
19 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
20 BY JUDGE KELLEY:
21 Q
If.you had made a water addition in the course of-I -
22 143, normally I guess you would have logged it; is that 23 right?
24 A
Yes, sir.
.(
25 Q
And if Hartman were running a test and you would ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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have known that, you would have told him, or he would have 2
found it in the' log?
3 A
If.Hal was on the panel and made an addition he 4
4 would have logged it.-
5 Q
If you are on the panel -- I'm not hypothesizing; 6
on 143, you were on the panel.
7 A
Okay.
8 Q
So you would have logged the water addition ~if 9
there would have been one and, in any case, you may have told 10 him -- or he may have asked you -- about water additions; is 11 that right?
12 A
Yes, sir.
O 13 Q
Ok'ay.
So it should have shown up in the 14 calculation.
Okay.
15 BY JUDGE CARPENTER:
16 Q
Mr. Booher,'I'm still looking at this test 143.
17 This is the time period where there was substantial 18 identified leakage; is that correct?
19 A
Repeat the question again.
20 Q
This was a time period,.this March 10th, is a time 21 period where there was substantial identified leakage at 22 TMI-2?
23 A
I don't remember, sir.
24 Q
You don't recall some valves over a good many days
]
. ()
25 in March had a substantial leakage?
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1 A
One of th'e pressurizer codes or pour valves had 2
some leak; yes, sir.
3 Q
That's.what I meant by identified leak.
4 A
-Yes, sir.
We did experience leakage through one 5
of those valves.
6 Q
What I'm trying to get your help with, if we look 7'
at this strip chart for 143, there are a series of water 8
additions necessary to keep the makeup tank level up, going 9
all the way back to the 2100 time period ou were talking j
10 about with Judge Kelley.
11 If I look at those several additions, five, and 0s.
12 the time period right after them, they all show a pretty 13.
consistent slope.
'ihen my eye. is caught by the f act that 4
14 right after the leak rate test there's an. extended period.
15 where water wasn't added, running from roughly 0500 to'730, 16 where~the slope is significantly less.
Do you have any idea 17 how -this happened?
We are still trying to learn-, even after 18 six weeks, we are still trying to learn.
19 A
I'm sorry, sir._
The slope looks the same to me.
20 It looks longer but the same.
21 Q
Well, I have the advantage of having a ruler and 22 pencil.
23 A
Oh.
24 Q
Let's assume hypothetically that if you did draw a
. ()
25 straight line'through that extended period there you would ACE-F.EDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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see obviously a slope more like the other line that is drawn 2
through the leak rate surveillance tent time interval.
Do 3
you see that,.that NRR has drawn two lines there, one with a 4
lesser slope and one with a greater; slope?
5 A
Yes, sir.
6 Q
See, in that following period it corresponds more 7
to the line with the lesser slope.
And if you use that 8
lesser slope line you don't see any jogged water additions.
9 What I'm trying to do is look for times after the 10' leak rate test and before the leak rate test to see, on the 11 average, what is the slope?
What.was the. rate of decline?
12 And there seems to be this big change in slope at about the s
13 time of the leak rate test.
I'm just curious as to whether 14 that valve leakage was very constant with time or whether it 15 went up and down, up and down, if you recall?
16 A
I don't remember any change in valve leakage.
I 17 wouldn't know how to tell that.
t 18 JUDGE BRIGHT:
Mr. Booher, I have a few more 19 questions for you.
We won't pull any more charts on you for 20 a little while, anyway.
21 BY JUDGE BRIGHT:
22 Q
on page 3 and 4, bottom of page 3, very top of 23 page 4 of your prefiled testimony, you mention this LER, so I 24 presume you know what that was.
Is that true?
()
25 A
Yes, sir.
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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Q Are you familiar with the circumstances that led 2
up to it?
That-the NRC inspector came around --
3 A
Yes, sir.
4 Q
There were two things about that period.of time 5
that I'm interested in.
We have some testimony about shortly 6
after this occurrence happened that the word came.out to not 7
leave bad leak rates, leak rates in excess of 1 gallon per 8
minute, laying around on tables somewhere.
Or to be'very 9
careful in your handling.
But the main thing was, don't 10 leave them out where the casual passerby can see them.
11 This appears to be the sense of it.
12 Do you remember lany instructions to that effect?
(~,'\\
-13 A
Yes, sir.
But I don't know when exactly I heard 14' or read that instruction.
15 Q
.You remember getting an instruction like that, do 16 you?
17 A
I do remember a conversation on it.
18 Q
Do you recall who told you?
19 A
Yes, sir.
20 Q
There are two possible -- well, I guess three ways 21 that I have been able to figure out how you all exchanged
'22 information.
One would be information coming from your 23 supervisors.
Was it ordinarily Mr. Hoyt's -- he was your 24 shift supervisor -- I mean, he was your shift foreman, was he 25 not?
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4227 1
A Yes,' sir.-
2 Q
Do you recall. talking with him about this 3
particular thing?
4 A
No, sir..
5 Q
Another way, someone comes around with a piece of 6
paper and puts it in a book somewhere.
And if you ever get 7
the time and inclination to look'into that book, then you 8-might have noticed it there.
Would you --
9 A
No, sir.
I don't remember seeing it in the 10 required reading book, but I do remember seeing and: reading 11 the required reading book.
12 Q
As nearly as I.can tell, it was with some O
13 difficulty -- you apparently signed off on the sign-off 14-sheet.
You initialed it for this particular item, which 15 would generally indicate that you had read it.
Now, would 16~
you say that was a fair statement?
-17 A
Are you referring to the'LER?
18 Q
Yes, sir.
19 A
I do remember seeing that I did sign the LER.
But 20 what time I signed it I don't remember.
I don't remember 21
' reading it, either.
22 Q
Well, I'm not concerned about that.
It's fairly 23 well established that'whatever this instruction was, it came 24 out not too long after the occurrence of October 17th, 18th-(
)
25 or 19th, if we could ei:er get those numbers straight.
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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<^s SRT 4228 N.)
1 The other way that information seemed to percolate 2
around the system was at shift change.
Could you possibly-3 have received the sord there from someone that you just 4
happened to talk to when the shift was changing sometime?
5 A
It's possible; yes, sir.
6 Q
But you don't remember how you did get the 7
information?
8 A
No,-sir.
9 Q
Mr. Booher, this'is a standard question that I 10 ask.
During your training or your experience or talking with 11 your colleagues, whatever, did anyone ever really give you a 12 good explanation of what the safety implications of this
("T
\\-
13 particular leak rate test were?
14 A
During those days, no, sir.
The basis was there 15 in the tech specs.
But we all realized the safety concept of 16 leak rates.
But --
17 Q
Could you explain what you mean by "you all 18 realized the safety context."
What was the safety. context?
1 19 A
I'm hoping that I'm not confusing what'I have 20 learned from other plants, tech specs, and referencing it to 21 a TMI tech spec basis.
But, basically a leak rate 22 surveillance is performed to indicate primary coolant system 23 leakage.
A primary coolant system leakage, a minute amount, 24 can generate itself into a larger amount, and that's the
()
25 basis for a tech spec surveillance and a tech spec LCO and ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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l 28690.0 4229 1-the associated-tech spec action statement.
2 The training in those days wasn't as good as it is 3
today.
So I don't think I had the education or the training 4
then as I should have.
5 Q
Would it be a fair statement to say that you do 6
not recollect knowing that in your present state ~of knowledge 7
at the particular time that you were CRO-ing on TMI-2?
8 A
It wasn't as big an issue as it should have been 9
in those days.
10 JUDGE BRIGHT:
Well, thank you, Mr. Booher.
11 BY JUDGE CARPENTER:
12 Q
Mr.-Booher, to follow up on what you were saying
[,)
13 to Judge Bright, page 6 of your prefiled, your concluding 14 paragraph.
We don't want to explore Waterford.
You say at 15 Waterford you learned the absolute necessity for strict 16 compliance with the technical specifications and plant 17 administrative procedures.
18 Can you tell us --
there's been a lot of changes 19.
in the whole industry since 1969, but, in particular, how was 20 that experience at Waterford different than your experience 21 at TMI-2, 1978 and 1979?
22 A
For my being licensed a CRO, at TMI, the policy 23 there was to know a tech spec, to know that there's a general i
24 subject on a particular item.
To know the action statement
()
25 or to know the basis in detail, being an RO, was not as great ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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an issue as it is today.
2 Today in training programs at various plants the.
3 Ros must know the tech specs almost in as much detail as 4
SROs, now.
In the TMI days, like I said, the Ros only had to
.5 know a general subject.
Say, for example, leak rates, 6
primary chemistry, plant radiation levels -- just know that
.7 there are items associated, LCOs.
8 In respect, today,.the training is much better 9
than it was then.
And at Waterford I did get the training 10 relating to tech specs in much more detail.
11 JUDGE CARPENTER:
Thank you.
12 JUDGE KELLEY:
Follow-up questions?
('T 13 MR. MC BRIDE:
Yes, sir.
14 MS. WAGNER:
None from the Staff.
15 BY JUDGE KELLEY:
16 Q
-Mr.
Booher, we have just a few follow-up questions 17 from your counsel.
18 When did you first hear the term " jogged water s
19 addition"?
20 A
During the investigations and interviews 21 post-accident.
22 Q
okay.
I think that answers this.
I'll give you-23 the next question, though.
24 Did you ever hear the term when you were a CRO at
()
25 TMI-2 prior to the accident?
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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(O BRT 4231 1
A No, sir.
2 Q
Can you tell, just from the CRO log, what was 3
going on in the plant in the period of a leak rate test?
Or 4
were your log-keeping practices such that one could not 5
necessarily tell what was going on in the plant?
6 A
The-logs were somewhat sloppy then.
I can 7
remember a statement that came out, that during the accident, 8
on March 28, that there was, like two or three lines of 9
entries made during the accident itself.
10 Now, I would have thought that-there would be more 11 entries made of the different various parameters.
So, in 12 that respect, yes, the log-keeping was very lax'back then.
13 Q
Well, to put it a little differently, I think what 14
-the question is driving at:
Let's assume that you did make 15 all the log entries that the procedures told you to make and 16 that they were put in at the right time.
Could one then just 17~
sit down and by reading the log tell what was going on in the 18 plant?
Would it give you a full picture?
19 A
I don't know about a full picture, but it should 20 give you an indication of any major parameters' changes.
21 JUDGE KELLEY:
Did that get at what you were 22 after?
23 MR. MC BRIDE:
Yes, sir.
Thank you.
24 JUDGE KELLEY:
Okay, Mr. Booher.
That takes us
()
' 25 through the questioning process with you.
We appreciate your ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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BRT 4232 1
coming.
'I know you are joining us from California; is that 2
right?
3 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
4 JUDGE KELLEY:
Well, it's a long trip.
We 5
appreciate your coming very much and"your attention to the ques' ions.
Thank you very much.
6 t
7 THE WITNESS:
Thank you, sir.
8 (Witness stood down.)
9 JUDGE KELLEY:
Our sense is just.to break and come~
10 back at 1:30 for the afternoon witness.
Is that all right?
11 MR. MC BRIDE:
That should be fine..
12 JUDGE KELLEY:
Let's do that.
Back at 1:30.
Q 13 (Whereupon, at 11:30 a.m.,
the hearing was 14 recessed, to be reconvened at 1:30 p.m.,
this same day.)
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 O
25 ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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AFTERNOON SESSION (1:30 p.m.)
2 JUDGE KELLEY:
Mr. Hoyt, good afternoon.
3 Whereupon, 4
KENNETH R.
HOYT 5
was called a.s a witness and, having first been duly sworn, 6
was examined and testified as follows:
7 EXAMINATION-8 BY MR. MC BRIDE:
9 Q
Would you please state your full name for the 10 record?
11 A
Kenneth Richard Hoyt.
12 Q
Mr. Hoyt, do you have before you a four-page O
13 document entitled " Prepared Statement of Kenneth R.
Hoyt" and 14 bearing the caption of this proceeding?
15 A'
Yes, I do.
16 Q
Do you have any additions or corrections-you wish.
17 to make to that testimony at this time?
18 A
No, sir.
19 Q
Do you adopt that statement as your sworn
~
' testimony in this proceeding?
20 21 A
Yes, sir.
22 MR. MC BRIDE:
At this time, Judge Kelley, I'd ask 23 to have the statement bound in the record as if read.
24 JUDGE KELLEY:
So ordered.
()
25 (The document.follows.)
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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JUDGE KELLEY:
I have an opening statement-just
~
]
2 for the sake of context, and then Judge Bright -- Judge 3
Bright is on my right, by the way, and Judge. Carpenter on my 4
left.
My name is Kelley.
5 The Board has been charged by the Commission to 6
' determine the extent of involvement of employees at TMI-2 in 7
1978 and79 in leak rate test falsification and other 8
improper practices in.-leak rate testing.
This is your 9
. opportunity to state on 'the record your recollections and 10 perceptions about your involvement in leak rate 'esting at t
11 ~
that time and to rebut any adverse st'atement about ycu by any
]
12
. employee or investigator group with which you may disagree.
,_s
(_)
. e have reviewed.your prefiled testimony and we have 13 7
W 14 considered it in light of the testimony that has already been.
i' 15 developed in this proceeding.
16 As I expect you are aware, we have been talking 17 with -- we will talk with just a' bout all of the CRos and 18 2hift. foremen and shift supervisors in that time period, and 19'
' talk with them on roughly a shift basis with respect to the
~
20 shift that you were with at that time.
We heard " rom 21 Mr. Hartman some time back.
Mr. Booher, as you probab'i r
j 22 know, was here this morning-Mr. Smith is going to be here 23 tomorrow.
We are not sure about Mr. Blessing, whether he's l
24 going to come or.not.
()
25 But, in any case, we have pretty well talked to i
4 4
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1 everybody in those positions at that time, including your 2
shift.
3 We'll have some questions based on your prefiled 4
testimony, possibly on statements you made in the past.
We 5
may have a few questions based on statements of others, such 6
as others on your shift may have made.
7 As you are probably aware, in addition there are 8
in the record of this proceeding two rather extensive studies 9
of leak rate practices at that time -- in that time frame:
10 One by the NRC Staff; and the second one by Mr. Stier, which 11 was commissioned by GPU Nuclear..Those studies cover the 12 whole subject pretty comprehensively, including analyses of 13 particular tests that were run during the period of TMI-2's 14 operation.
The Stier study, for example, has an analysis of 15 every test-run during that period that wasn't-thrown away, 16 and the-NRC Staff study analyzes every retained test coming 17 out of the last six months of operation.
18 We won't have detailed, test-by-test questions for 19 you.
These studies are in the record for whatever light they 20 shed on the subject.
We may have a few questions about 21 particular tests, but by and large the tests themselves, the 22 analyses of them, will be in the record for whatever
-23 evidentiary weight they are entitled to, but we'll certainly 24 consider them in light of the entire record including your
()
_25 testimony here this afternoon.
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 So, with those contextual remarks, let me turn the 2
microphone over to Judge Bright.
3 EXAMINATION BY THE BOARD I
4 BY JUDGE BRIGHT:
5 Q
Good afternoon, Mr. Hoyt.
6 I think I have been through essentially alliof 7
your prefiled testimony and your previous statements, et 8
cetera, and-I have compiled a number of statements here from 9
those documents that, in the interest of time, I'll just ask 10 you -- make a statement and see if you agree with it.
l 11 You have testified that you have discarded 12-
.out-of-specification tests; by that I mean'what are-i i _
13 ordinarily called bad leak rates.
l 14 A
Yes, sir.
L 15 Q
That you personally have not run any leak rate 16 tests?
l
(
17 A
No, sir, l
18 Q
You did not ensure that out-of-spec-LRTs'were 19 documented; that is, entered in the log?
20 A
I didn't hear your first part, sir.
21 Q
I guess the first part was:
You have not made
.22 sure that'the.out-of-spec LRTs, the bad ones, were documented 23
-in the log?
24 A
No, sir, I did not.
.()
25' Q
You have no knowledge of hydrogen additions?
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A No, sir.
2 Q
No knowledge of water additions?
3 A
No, sir.
l l
4 Q
And'no knowledge of manipulation?
5 A
No, sir.
6 Q
Chr the use of those two.to manipulate tests?
7 A
No, sir.
8 JUDGE KELLEY:
Excuse me, the mikes are off.
9 THE WITNESS:
I am having a hard time I
10 understanding.
l 11 JUDGE KELLEY:
Hearing Judge Bright?
12 THE WITNESS:
Hearing all of you.
13 JUDGE KELLEY:
Is this better now?
14 THE WITNESS:
I can hear you real good now.
15
-JUDGE KELLEY:
When you say you have no knowledge 16 of hydrogen additions, did you mean no knowledge of hydrogen 17 additions for the purpose of affecting leak rate tests?
18 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir, that's what I meant.
19 JUDGE KELLEY:
And the same with respect to adding 20 water?
21 THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
22 BY JUDGE BRIGHT:
(
23 Q
That you personally nor anyone on your shift, as 24 far as you know, ever made out an E&D on the leak rate
()
25 mechanism?
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.A No, sir.
2 Q
'And you have never put the plant into.the action 3
statement as a result of a leak rate test?
4 A'
No, sir, I never did.
5 Q
Okay.
I Lould like.to just ly).over some.of the 6
points that.have been made previously and kind of flesh out 7
what goes on when we have a little trouble because we weren't 8
there, seeing how things went.
9 Could you just-briefly.give me your general 10' opinion ~ of the computer leak rate test procedure, what its 11 value'was, how it worked?
12 A
Well, what am I going to say?
The procedure 13 really.was for the CRO to go to the computer and put in a
)
14 code asking for a leak rate of the reactor coolant system.
15 The computer then would start monitoring certain parameters 16 throughout the system that it needed to look at.
It would do i.
17 this for whatever interval of time the_ operator had 3
18 programmed the computer for,-which normally was for i
]-
19 hour2.199074e-4 days <br />0.00528 hours <br />3.141534e-5 weeks <br />7.2295e-6 months <br />.
At the end of the-hour the computer would print out
-20 certain questions for the CRO to answer, and when'he answered 21 those questions, it would print out what it seen as the leak 22 rate for the time interval.
23 Q
What was your personal opinion as to the value of 24 this test?
4 1
(f 25 A
My pe'rsonal opinion?
. ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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. Q BRT 1
Q Personal opinion.
2 A
It had a lot of inaccuracies into it.
The 3
computer was not'given accurate'enough information, really, i-
'4 to be. judging whether the plant had 1 gpm leak rate or not.
5
-Q In what way was it not given information?
6 A
The accuracy of the instruments feeding it were 7
not accurate enough to give a computer program that would be 8
accurate enough to look for a 1 gallon per minute leak rate 9
when you are talking -- you know, you have 88,000 gallons in 10 the reactor coolant system and you are looking over an hour 11 period for the thing to lose 60 gallons.
The. instruments 12 that they had this computer -- they had maybe plus or minus, 3 -O_
13 say 1 percent accuracy on-them and you are asking the 14 computer to give you plus or minus 1/15000 accuracy ~.
~15 There was other problems in the program that 16 certain things were not compensated:for, temperature 17 variations and things like that for the reactor coolant leak 18 tank, drain. tank.
Those things were not--properly 19 compensated.
The computer.had been reprogrammed at least 20 once, as I now remember, to compensate for this but s'till 21 there were these little inaccuracies that, fed into it.
The
~
22 computer was too, too variable.
That was my opinion of the 23 computer leak rate.
24 Q
This point has come up before, people saying that 25 you'are trying'to~ determine a gallon or so in a 60,000-gallon ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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system or something like that, whatever the gallonage of the 2
system is.
Isn't it'true that you are not really doing 3
that?
Basically,.for unidentified leakage anyway, you are 4
' depending upon measuring in the makeup tank, which~is a much 5
smaller system?
6 A
.No.
If that was all the system was looking at, 7
that would be the only thing it would monitor, in my opinion, 8
just the makeup tank level and see if anything.was put in or 9
if anything was taken out.
But it looked at plant pressures, 10 tank levels, drain tank levels -- these all are independent 11 of the makeup tank per se.
Sort of independent systems.
Why 12 would the computer look at them if the only thing it was 13 worried about was the makeup tank level change?
14 Q
But that was the only thing you could measure, in 15 terms of the water?
You can measure temperature and all that 16 but you had to manipulate that.only for the amount of water 17 that actually went out of the makeup tank; wouldn't that be 18 true?
19 A
Yes, sir.
20 Q
Well, all of that being said, did you really 21 regard this particular surveillance as really being 22 necessary, except for'the fact that it was in the tech spec?
23 A
I believe it was a useful tool.
All right?
I 24 don't'believe that the 1 gpm, as I said, was really a good,
()
25 accurate number.
But I did use it as a tool.to see what the ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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(
1 plant trend was.
In that respect, yes, I did. rely on it.
2 JUDGE BRIGHT:
Does Mr. Hoyt have the-Stier
-3 compilation of previous statements?
4 MR. MC BRIDE:
Do you mean the Stier assessment, 5
Judge Bright?
6 JUDGE BRIGHT:
Well, his interviews.
7-MR. MC BRIDE:
Yes.
I believe we've got them all 8
here.
Which one would you like him to look at?
9 JUDGE BRIGHT:
Stier investigation 2/14/85.
10 MR '. ~ BK: BRIDE:
All right, sir.
11 JUDGE BRIGHT:
Page 43.
12 BY JUDGE BRIGHT:
13 Q
Have you looked at it?
14 A
Yes.
I read it.
15 Q
I just want to refresh your memory here on-this 16 particular thing.
You make a statement that you never 17 remember seeing a leak rate test in excess of 1 gpm which 18 agreed with other plant conditions.
19 A
Yes, sir, I did make that statement.
The answer 20 was no.
21 Q
I guess it would be handy if you would turn to the 22 Stier interview of 2/26/85.
23 MR. MC BRIDE:
Mr. Hoyt, it's to your right.
24 BY JUDGE BRIGHT:
()/
25' Q
Page 11 -- no.
Pardon me.
Yes, that is page 11.
s_
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1 Wiiat I would like to do is go through these other.
-2 indicators and get you to give me'some idea of just how 3
accurate they were, and what kind of information you could 4
get from watching these other things.
This is what you said 5
they were back at -that time.
Would you take them one at a 6-time?
You look at makeup tank level --
7
-A Yes,.' sir.
Well, makeup tank level, as you are all 8
aware, you get a readout on a strip chart and I roughly had 9
30 gallons per inch on the chart.
So you could look at the 10 trend in the chart and see which way leakage was going, see 11 what water was being put into it and what water was going 12 out, and mathematically; you know, calculating ahead, what 13 the plant is doing.
14 Q
How accurate would you say that was?.That looks 15 like a little bitty chart to me.
-16
.A Yes.
17 Q
Those lines are-awfully close togeth'er.
You have 18 a pen width to concern yourself with.
Plus the fact there is 19 an oscillation.
It doesn't draw a straight line.
20 A
Well, you never really looked at it as small 21 increments.
You would look at it over a time frame, and as 22 the NRC people have done, you sort of put.an imaginary 23 straight line across it and averaged the thing out.
Never 24 really picked out a five-or 10-minute interval or something 25 like that; no, sir, you couldn't, because of the w
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 oscillations.
2 Q
Well,.with the method you described, how accurate 3
do you think you could actually be?
think that instrument 'ad something like about 1 h
.4 A
I 5
percent accuracy.
6 Q
That close?
7 A
Yes.
8 MR. MC BRIDE:
Excuse me, Judge Bright, could you 9
clarify whether you and the witness may have been talking 10 about the same thing?
Were you asking him how accurate was 11 the methodology or how accurate was the instrument?
12 JUDGE BRIGHT:
I'm asking him how accurate, 13 considering the instrument.was correct, how accurate was his' 14 eyeball guess on it.
15 THE WITNESS:
I misunderstood.you, then.
I'm 16 referring to the instrument, was approximately 1 percent 17 accurate.
18 BY JUDGE BRIGHT:
19 Q
Yes.
20 A
To say my accuracy of eyeballing it, I probably 21 was -- could have been anywheres from, I don't know, 2.5 22 percent, I would say.
Somewhere in that neighborhood.
23 Q
Could you characterize this in gallons?
I believe 24 that was the scale that was used.
(
)
25 A
Yes, sir.
By eyeballing it and drawing your ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 imaginary line you pick a reference of say 60 inches and it 2
drops'down to 55; you have got a difference of 5 inches, you 3
-multiply that by your 5 gallons per inch, and that is the 4
methodology you would use to determine what the level change 5
had been, how many gallons.
6 Q
And you-think that you could defend that to.
7 yourself at least?
8 A
Yes, sir.
9 Q
Within 5 percent?
'10 A
Yes, sir.
11 Q
Now you say you look at the pressurizer level.
12 A
Yes, sir.
O 13 Q
How did that go?
14 A'
Well, pressurizer level, depending on plant 15 conditions, if you were running stable, pressurizer level 16 should be staying stable,' makeup tank levels should be 17 maintaining stable.
Ideal conditions.
18 If the makeup tank level was going down and 19 pressurizer was not changing and temperatures and pressures 20 were not changing, that is an indication that water is going 21 someplace and not showing up as-an addition to the reactor 22 coolant system, which would irdicate you have a leak 23 someplace.
24 If you see makeup tank level going down and a
()
25 corresponding increase for the same amount of gallons into ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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the pressurizer, once again without. temperature changes or 2
pressure changes, it is safe to assume that the water. leaving 3
the makeup-tank is being added to the pressurizer and vice 4
- versa, i
5 Q
Could you have quantify the amount of water being i'
l 6
added to the system by looking at the pressurizer level?
7 A
'Yes, sir.
There was a -- I don't remember the 8
exact, number now -- but there was a correlation of inches in 9
the pressurizer versus gallons added.
10 Q
Was that a recorded' intelligence?
11 A
Yes, sir, I believe it was.
12 Q
The pressurizer level?
4 -
)
i 13 A
Yes, sir.
14 12 It had a record made of it, much as the makeup 15
-tank had?.
l 16 A
What I remember right now, yes, sir,.it did.
- 17 Q
And you say you looked at reactor coolant system 18 temperature changes?
4 19 A
Yes, sir.
And that's just the, you know, change 20 in temperature is going'to change the volume of the system.
21 So, if you see something increasing and you have a 22.
significant change in temperature to increase, you can pretty 23 much relate that u.e increase in level came from the increase 24
'in temperature.
And we had a iule of thumb on that, that
()
25 would say so'many degrees should show so many inches of level 1
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rise in the pressurizer, so we could relate that.
-2 Q
Okay.
This was a correspondence between 3
pressurizer level and temperature?
'4 A
Yes.
5 Q
It was not a correlation between 1 degree equals 6
50 gallons or something like that?
7 A
I don't remember what we used for the rule of 8
thumb right now, sir; no.
9 Q
Did you ever consider the reactor drain tank in 10 that list of parameters that-you gave to me?
11 A
Yes, sir.
They were loo'ked at.
12 Q
Exactly what went into the reactor's drain tank?
13 A
Well, pressurizer release went in there; valve-14 leak-offs. drained into that tank; reactor coolant pump seal 15 leakage went into that tank.
I think~there might have been a 16 couple of other things I can't remember right now.
17 Q
That would be, or would it be automatic valving?
18 Or overpressure valving?
Manual valving?
Let's say, on 19 the --
20 A
Well, outside of the pressurizer release, it would 21 have been~ manual valving prior to plant start-up.
If there 22 had been any valves in the line that would have been open I
23 they would have stayed that way while you were operating.
24 Q
Now, with all of these things, without the use of
()
25 the computer method, do you think you could determine the ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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}-BRT 4247 1-difference between, say, -.9 gallons per minute and 1.1 2
gallons per minute?
3 A
tio, sir.
4 Q
So, it would be a fair. statement to say that the 5
only prayer you had was~ that the computer could detect 6
.this --
7.
A Yes, sir.
8 Q
-- that small of change?
9 A'
Yes, sir.
10 Q
Something that I was curious about.
If you had a 11 leak in the, oh, say one of the main pipes in this system, 12 the primary system -- maybe a weld or just -- you had a bad 13 radiography, job and there was a flaw in the pipe that nobody
'14 detected or whatever -- generally, where would the leakage 15 i from such a flaw, hole, whatever you want to call it, crack 16
-- where would that leakage go?
17 A
That would end up in the reactor building sump.
18 Q
In the sump.
19 Now, I don't think we need to take worst case, but 20 just-someplace that is, oh, relatively not very close to the 21 sump tank.
How long do you think it would take for that to 22 get to the sump?
23 A
I can't think of any place in the plant where it 24 should take more than one to two minutes before you start
)
25 seeing the inflow of water into the sump and seeing your ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 level increase.
2
'Q Now, we are not talking about a lot of water here.
3 A
No, but the plant was fairly new.
The piping was
~
4 fairly clean.
There was very little, let's call it dust and 5
crud in there to create traps.
Water should have flowed 6
through pretty readily, I would think.
7 Q
Was this something that was really considered very 8
carefully in the construction of-that plant, do you know?
9 That is, how well all leaks lead to the sump?
We have a 10 garage downstairs that I park in and it's fantastic.
It 11
'looks flat,- but it is fantastic how of ten you have to wade 12 through that sucker.
I'm just curious --
13 A
But other places in the plant -- I can recall 14-right now that we did have puddles prior to getting to the 15 drain.
What I can remember today, these were.outside of the 16 D ring, which would be in areas away from the reactor coolant 17 system piping.
18 Inside of the D ring itself, no, sir.
Today I 19 really can't recall any places where we formed any puddles 20 from any leaks.
21 You know, wet spots, we'll call it that'way, but 22 not depth accumulation of water.
23 Q
When you say the "D ring," what precisely.is 24 that?
Is that a protecting shielt. inside containment?
()
25 A
Yes, it's a concrete protecting shield built i
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around the reactor loop and that.s inside the reactor i
2 building.
3 Q
Is this the sort of thing -- I have seen it in a 4'
plant or two -- where'you actually have a polar crane or 5
something like that that_uses it as a trap?
6 A
No.
You don't use the D rings.
You use the outer 7
walls of the reactor building.
8 Q
Now, you, of course, were familiar with the tech 9
spec on leakage out of the reactor.
10 A
Yes, sir.
11 Q
And if you couldn't determine whether the 12 unidentified leakage was less than 1 gallon per minute, in f\\.
\\l 13 light of the requirements of the tech spec, how could you not 14 go into the' action statement?
This is something'that is 15 puzzling me.
'16 A
That's really hard to answer.
I don.'t know what I.
17 was thinking back prior to the accident.
I guess I felt safe 18 with the computer printout that said we were less than 1 and 19 that was sort of the direction that was given to the 20 operators and the foremen.
You get your computer printout 21 and if you feel the plant is safe, you file that and go on.
22 Today I realize that was all wrong thinking, it.
23 was wrong training to even assume that.
24 So, it has just been too many years and too many
()
25~
people showing me where I made my mistakes that I really ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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L1 can't go back to that point and tell you what I was thinking.
2 Q
That is difficult.
3 Were you familiar with the safety significance of 4
that leak rate test?
5 A
Yes, sir.
6 Q
The reasoning behind the requirement for the 1 7
gallon per minute?
8 A
My understanding of that reason was to detect a' 9
leak prior to it really becoming a problem,.where you could 10 lead into, well, basically like the accident that we did 11 have.
Yes, I am aware of that fact.
12 Q
Were you aware back in those days?
\\~
13 A
Yes, sir, i
14 Q
Did you ever talk to people in the control room 15 about it?
16 A
I don't understand what you mean by " talk to" 17 them.
18
-Q Well, did you ever point out to them that this was 19 why we needed the leak rate; it wasn't just a nuisance that 20 some bureaucrat had put in to devil the poor operator?
4 21 A
Not that I recall, sir.
This pretty much was 22 brought out in the training and I can't recall ever stressing 23 that on my own to the operators.
24 Q
Let's see.
On page 4 -- first let me ask you, did
()
25 you -- the operator would come to you and give you a leak ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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rate test for your approval and it would be below 1. gallon 2
per minute. unidentified leakage.
Would you try~to validate 3
that before you approved it?
4 A
In which way do you mean " invalidate"?
5 Q
" validate," not " invalidate."
.6 A
Excuse me.
Validate?
I would look at the 7
information on the printout.and I -- usually.-this was 1
.8 something that was made after I made my plant tour and if 9
things liked right there and it was less than 1, that's, to 10 the best of my recollection, about all I looked at to see 11 whether I felt it was a good leak rate or not.
12 Q
Well, now, you state here on page 4 that all of 13 the discarded tests were greater than 1 gallon per minute?
14 A
To the best of my recollection; yes, sir.
15 Q
Let me ask you this:
Does that mean that there 16 were no tests less than 1 gallon per minute that were 17 discarded?
18 A
Not that I can recall; no, sir.
19 I would like to clarify one thing, though.
There 20 was some times when the computer would come out with some 21 large negative numbers, okay?
Now, those are definitely 22 negative numbers less than 1 but they were discarded because 23 they were definitely an invalid thing.
You can't have a -- I 24 can remember as high as a negative 5 gallons a minute leak f~h 25 rate with nothing happening to the plant to indicate and no
(.
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-1
- way for the~ plant to make its own water.
-2 I do recall'at least one of them.
So, in that 3
respect, there was something else less than 1 that was thrown
.4 away.
I'm'sure there'aight have been others.
Well,'with the ex'eption of those negative leak 5-Q:
c
~
6 rate tests, did you ever throw-away a'less than 1 gallon per 7'
minute?
8' A
No,. sir.
~Not that I recall.
9 Q-On page 10 you make a' statement.
In your answer
-10 at the bottom of the page, the last sentence --
11 A
Yes, sir?
12 Q
Just for the record the sentence reads:
"We were
(
13 told to look at these parameters, to do our own evaluation of 14 them, and to make our best judgment call on the condition of-15 the plant."
16 You say "we were told."
Who told you?
17 A
By "we" what I'm saying is the training department 18 had basically trained us, the crew, okay?
Myself, shift 19 supervisor, CROs, we all attended training normally at the 20 same time, same class.
That is what I'm referring to as 21 "we."-
As the whole crew.
22 Q
Yes.
But who told you, the training people?
23 A
Yes, sir.
That's what I'm referring to there.
24 Q
So it wasn't a matter of somebody wrote you a 25 letter or memo, as a condition of your -- well, no, strike
()
l ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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that.
That's going nowhere.
2 What I was curious about, I presume you applied 3:
this to this leak rate.
4 A
Yes,. sir.
5 Q
And then the question is:
Did you think that this 6
was what gave you the authority, ability, carte blanche, you 7
describe it how ever you wish -- to use your own judgment 8
rather than what the leak rate test told you?
9 A
Yes, sir, I did.
10 Q
A little thing happened.
Do you remember "the" 11 LER on leak rate tests?
12 A
Yes,' sir.
O k#
13 Q
I wonder if you would turn to page 58; 58, 59, 14 60.
Why don't you read that.
At least the bottom of 58.
15 I.think, rather than go through some line of i
16 questioning here, let me make a statement and see if you 17
'think it's a fair statement of what is on these three pages.
18 That you didn't recall seek this LER, 78-62 --
19 A
No, sir.
20 Q
-- until people told you about it; and yet your 21 initials appear on the check-off sheet?
22 A
Yes, sir.
23 Q
And you would not ordinarily sign off on something 24 unless you had read it?
f) 25 A
That's correct.
v ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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Q But, regardless of that, that the practices used 2
previous to the incident that led to the LER were not changed
~
3 as a result of the LER being issued?
4 A
No, sir.
5 Q
In connection with that, let's go back to page 6
22.
Let's-see, this goes quickly up to page 30.
If you 7
could just refresh your memory.
8 The only thing I'm interested in here, they are 9
talking about pressuring people on shift to do one thing or 10 other, particularly to get good leak rate results.
And you 11 stated that'there was no pressure.
The only thing you could 12 think of was shortly after this problem with the NRC and the
\\ ')
13 leak rates came up, that you did receive the intelligence 14 that bad leak rate tests were not to be laid out on 15 somebody's desk, or whatever, but were to be thrown away?
16 A
Yes,. sir.
17 Q
And you also state that your recollection was that 18 it was communication fr:m your supervisor, the shift 19 supervisor?
20 A
Yes, sir.
21 Q
And it was your deduction, informed guess or 22 whatever, that this did come from upper management through i
23 your uhift supervisor to you?
24 A
Yes, sir.
()
25 Q
And your shift supervisor at the. time was Bernie-ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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Smith?
2 A
As I said in here --
3 Q
Yes.
4 Q
-- normally; yes, sir.
5 Q
But.
It would have been a shift supervisor?
6 A
Yes, sir.
~
7 Q
You make a statement in here that they were 8
curious as to why this was the first time you had ever 9
revealed this information to anyone and your statement was 10 "it is probably the first time I had been asked about it."
11 Is that a true --
12 A
Yes, sir.
-f 13-Q Then, farther on down you state that you weren't 14 present when the inspection was made, the NRC inspection.
15 A
That's true.
16 Q
And then you think that it was a pass-on, the i
17 information that you got, telling you that this had 18 happened --
19 A
Yes, sir.
20 Q
-- came from a pass on of information from one 21 crew to another.
22 A
Yes, sir.
]
23 Q
Could you elaborate on that just a little b'it?
We 24 are trying to get~the lines of communication here.
j ()
25 A
I don't_know whether it was a matter of, you know, ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 one day's shift or whether I might have been off-and come 2
back after a weekend or something, but it was normal practice 3
for me when I come to relieve the foreman, to ask what had 4
happened, essentially, since lar time I was on shift.
Lot 5
of~ times you get a rundown.
It.could have been anything such 6
as this NRC inspector has been here, or it could have been 7
- something as simple as somebody dropping something and 8
hurting their toe, type of thing.
That is what I mean, 9
gossip type things, things that's happening that's really not 10-the plant.itself but it's happening to people.
That kind of 11 information got passed on right along with the technical 12 information on the plant.
O 13 Q
So, generally do you feel you had a pretty goo'd 14 idea of what was going on in the plant, people-wise?
'15 A
Yes, sir.
16-Q I see.
17
~Q Something elses' Different companies, different 18 outfits, different parts of outfits, companies, all have 19 slightly different ways of doing business.
I'm just curious 20 about lines of authority in your particular situation there 21 at TMI-2.
22 What was the company attitude about adhering to 23 line of authority word?
I mean, on your shift, you had a 24 shift supervisor and there was a line of progression that
()
25 went through you down to the CROs.
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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- Now, I~ guess, if, for example -- just er 2
hypothetical situation -- if.s'meone other than your shift o
3 supervisor had told you to quit leaving bad leak rate tests 4
out.on desks, would you really have considered that to be the 5
definitive word? 10r would you have gone to your shift i
6 supervisor to find out whether this was -- which was the 7
proper thing to do?
1 8
A I believe I would have talked to my supervisor-9 about
..t and asked him if'that's the same word that he had 1
1 10 received.
Because that's normally where I took all of my 11 directions from, was from my supervisor.
12 Q
Well, for example, if Mr. Floyd had done this,
(:)
13 would you have cleared it with your shift s'upervisorLbefore i
14 you would-have complied?
15 A
Yes, sir.
I would'have made sure that he at least' 4
16 was told the same thing that'I was.
17 Q
Or'that he had been told something?
18 A
Yes, sir.
19 Q
Just one other thing.
Mr. Hoyt, did you feel it 20 was your responsibility or was it your practice to make sure 21 that your CROs were aware of such things as this LER?
Let me 22
.put a little finer part on there.
23 I realize that supposedly the LER, or whatever the 24 intelligence was, was taken and put in a book and it was
- ( )
25 supposed to be read by everybody.
And you had a book, shift ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 supervisor had a book, and the CRos had a book.
But'did you 2
feel that it was~your responsibility to make sure.that in one 3
way or another the CRos had this intelligence, this 4
information?
That they-knew about it?
That they were aware 15 of it?
6 A
Yes, sir.
I'll say yes from the fact that this 7
book you are talking about, and the sign-off sheet, had the 8
CROs right along with the foremen.
Normally my practice, if i
9 I had read it and initialed it.and seen that my CRos had not 10 done so yet, that I would leave'the book out and tell them j
11 when.they have the time, please read it and initial it.
12 Q
That was something else I wanted to ask you (T
k-13 about.
I noticed that all of the initials are on one sheet 14.
of paper.' You have six shifts with, let's see, two CROs,.
15 perhaps three. shift foremen, shift supervisor -- that's a I
16 einimum of five.
That's 30 people and they are scattered out 17 in time so they don't get to reading their little book every l
18' so often.
It must take a tremendous amount.of time for that.
19 single sheet of people to get around to everybody?
20 A
.Yes, sir.
21 Q
This appears to me to be a rather inefficient way 22 of getting the word passed and to make sure that everyone has
^
23 seen it.
Who is going to check on this, when 1t will take a 24 month to get everybody to sign off on it?
()~
.25 A
I guessl[ don't really have an answer to that, ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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202-347 370)
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1 other than agree with you.
Today I can see how it really was 2
<a very poor' method of doing it.
But I guess sort of the 3
philosophy was there would be people'on vacation, people off 4
4 for a week in-the training; with rotating shifts you have
~
5 four-day weekends, r,o to speak.. So, theoretically, at least,
'6' people could be out of the control room for -- it's not'hard 7
to imagine two weeks, without getting into the control room.
I
'8 So, basically within a two-week time frame,
'9
'anyhow, somebody, or all-the shifts should see it.
10 For something like this LER,.that definitely was 11 too long a time frame.
I don't believe that would'be done 12
.that way.today but I don't have any other theory for it l
13 then.
i 14 Q
That's the part that I have not been able to
-15 understand in this case at all.
Everybody says they read the 16 LER.
Everybody initialed the check-off sheet.
Nobody can 17 recall what it said at the time.
And there was absolute'ly no 18 change in the way anyoody did business.
This seems extremely 4
19 strange.
i
- 20 Are you sure those were your initials on there?.
21 A
I don't remember the piece of paper.
All I'm 22 saying is it looks like my initials.
I can't argue that I'--
23 Q
At one time you thought that was probably your 24 initials?
()
25 A
'I do today, sir.
I can't say they are not.
4 ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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Q I'm not arguing the point.
I'm just asking you.
2 JUDGE BRIGHT:
I think that's it.
3 THE WITNESS:
Thank you.
4 JUDGE KELLEY:
Let's take a 10-minute break.
5 (Reces s. )
6 JUDGE KELLEY:
Back on the record, Judge Carpenter 7
has some questions.
8 BY JUDGE CARPENTER:
9 Q
Mr. Hoyt, I would like to turn to your. prepared 10 statement.
On page 2, the third full paragraph you st te, 11 "During 1978 and 1979 I was aware that the method by which we 12 measured reactor coolant system leakage was not always O
5#
13 accurate."
I'm still trying to understand, did you think 14 sometimes it was accurate?
Most of the time it was I don't 'nderstand what "not always" means.
15 accurate?
u 16 A
What I'm saying is the input: to the computer I 17 did not feel as being totally accurate but I cannot say.that 18 the computer printout was accurate or not accurate.
I guess-19 I have no way of giving you that answer.
So that's why I 20 made my statement that way.
21 Q
I take it what you just said you mean to imply --
22 A
The computer could have been correct.
23 Q
-- there was a doubt in your mind?
i 24 A
I'm not saying it wasn't, all right?
But I'm
()
25 saying I felt there were enough inaccuracies, that I could ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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not believe it 100 percent.
2 Q
That's what I'm trying to get at.
Why you would 3
believe it at all, if you had a doubt about it?
4 A
It was the best tool that I had to be looking at 5
something that small.
I had to have some faith into it but I 6
didn't have 100 percent faith into it.
7 Q
We are trying to understand 'the root causes of 8
this situation where a surveill'ance test wasn't considered to i
9 be really reliable and yet it was used, day after day, month 10 after month, without any remedial action taken to make the 11 test do what it was capable of.
And that's what I'm trying 12 to understand.
O' 13 A
The only answer I can give you on that, that was, 14 you know, for the accuracy that we were looking at that was 15 the best tool that we did have to use.
To my knowledge, the 16 program was looked at prior to the accident at one time and 17 was changed and even up at the time of the accident I thought 18 that the computer people were still trying to come up with a 19 way of programming it to make it more accurate ~.
20 Q
I recognize we are forcing you to strain your 21 memory back to eight years ago and we are talking about 22 feelings, impressions, not things written down someplace that 23 you make reference to.
If you thought there was an 24 inaccuracy in the computer program, wouldn't that make every
()
25 result that the computer produced inaccurate?
I'm having a ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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hard time understanding the sort of whimsical -- and you are 2
not the only person that expressed this view, I want you to 3
understand that.
4 A
I know I'm not.
I find it hard to put into 5
words.
I have a feeling what you are looking for but I guess 6
I don't know how to put it into words.
7 Q
If I have a calculator and I put 2 times 2 in it 8
and it tells me 5, I expect the next time I do that it will 9
also tell me 5.
It will do whatever result --
10 A
But you are always putting in the same value, you 11 are putting in 2 times 2 all the time.
The computer was not 1
12 getting the same values all the time.
It was getting 13 different numbers; all right?
And what's to say that these 14 numbers that it was getting was accurate; all right?
15 Q
That's very different from the computer having an 16 error.
17 A
That's what I'm referring to.
The computer 18 compiled all the information; all right?
It had to take the 19 information that it got and that may not have been receiving 20 accurate information.
I'm sorry, maybe I didn't state it 21 clearly enough.
22 The computer itself, I'm sure calculated what it 23 seen.
But did it see the accuracies?
That I am not sure 24 of.
That's where I had my doubts.
The instruments that were
( ).
25 feeding the computer was not accurate enough so that the I
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 computer could be accurate.
2 Q
We certainly have evidence that, in particular the 3
level sensors, malfunctioned over extended periods of time.
4 What I'm trying to understand is how somebody trying to 5
change the computer program would have helped the 6
malfunctioning level sensor problem.
7, A
I can't answer that.
I'm not a computer man.
I'm 8
only telling you what I know the computer people were doing.
9 They were doing something with the program.
I can't tell you 10 anything outside of that, sir.
I'm sorry.
11 Q
But you just explained that in your mind there was 12 the computer program, which took whatever signals the sensors G
13 provided it, and manipulated them.
14 A
Well, the one thing that I do know, that the 15 program prior to the accident was not getting proper 16 compensation for temperature in the reactor coolant drain 17 tank.
All right?
18 Now, that was -- I don't know how they did it but 19 it was fixed so that supposedly the computer was getting a 20 proper compensation for temperature.
And my definition of 21 that is part of the computer program.
Maybe I'm using the 22 wrong terminology, I don't know.
23 Q
There was in, towards the middle of March, a 24 temporary change order that called for the individual running
()
25 of the leak rate surveillance tests to carry out a manual ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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calculation.
The essence of that manual calculation was to 2
correct the volumes measured in the reactor drain tank back 3
to reactor temperature.
So far as I have seen so far, this 4
was never done by a change in the computer program, it's a 5
manual calculation.
Is that what you are referring to?
i 6
A I believe we are talking the same thing.
- That, 7
somehow, did get into the computer.
To the best of my 8
recollection, this change had got put into the computer 9
somehow.
If not we would have been running hand calculations
~
10 up until the time of the accident.
We never would have went 11 back to the computer.
12 Q
That's what I believe the record shows, at least 13 the records that I have looked at after the temporary change 14 order, attached to each test is this hand calculation.
15 A
I don't recall, sir.
16 Q
Do you recall that temporary change order?
17 A
No, sir, not right now.
j 18 Q
What were you doing during the month of March?
19 Were you on shift?
Or were you at Lynchburg in training?
Or 20 were you on vacation, do you recall?
j 21 A
Well, the week of the accident I was in Lynchburg, 22 on training.
Prior to that I was on shift.
1 i
23 Q
So there might have been a week or so where this 24 temporary change order was in effect.
From my quick review 1 ()
25 of the tests, I didn't see any for your shift where the I
l ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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manual calculation was made?
2 A
No.
Normally the week before our training week 3
was a relief week and we were -- you know -- not really 4
involved directly with the operations in the controlling 5
room.
We were picking up the odds and ends that needed to be 6
done so the week before, if my recollection is correct; no, 7
we would not have been involved with it.
8 Q
In the next sentence of your statement you say 9
"the principal reason for this problem," referring to the 10 inaccuracy referred to in the previous sentence, "was that 11 the computer program that ran the leak rate test was 12 inaccurate."
13 Did you ever report that to anybody?
14 A
Yes, sir, I talked about that with my shift 15 supervisor That's where I got my information that the 16 computer people were trying to look into this situation and 17 get it corrected.
18 Q
What I couldn't begin to try to understand, this 19 sort of a casual hopefulness that the computer people some 20,
day will get the problem solved.
And yet the whole time 21 f TMI-2 was operating, the problem went on day after day.
~
22 That's what I don't understand.
I don't understand the 23 management strategy here which allows a surveillance test 24 that is required by the technical specification to go
()
25 essentially unfulfilled, not for a few shifts or a few days, ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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but month after month.
2 7
I can't explain for management, sir.
The computer 3
people was an entirely different department from mine.
I did.
J 4
not have a direct interface.
I'did not have the authority to 5
tell them:
Hey, get in here and fix it.
This was something t
6 that had to go up my chain, over and down another chain in i
7 another department.
8 Q
But as you said, this was the tool that you had to 9
see whether the plant was being operated in accordance with j
10 the technical specifications?
i 11 A
Yes, sir.
12 Q
And you recognized that the tool was deficient?
O 13 A
Yes, sir.
14 Q
And yet you were patient.
That's what I don't 15 understand.
16 A
I'm a very patient person.
17' Q
If you had tried to energize this system, going up 18 the chain of command and down some other. chain of command, to 19 get somebody to really come and do something about.this, 20 would there have been resistance to your doing that?
21 A
I can't answer that today.
I don't know.
22 Q
Well, did you have the feeling that it was wiser 23 not to make waves?
j 24 A
No, sir.
I had a feeling that I should take that I ()
25 to my supervisor and it was his responsibility to come back i
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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to me with an answer for my question.
And his answer, to the 2
best of my recollection, always was:
Well, they are looking 3
into it.
4 Q
Well, I can think of a lot of thinos, looking into 5
it might be the appropriate action, but where there's 6
uncertainty about compliance with the technical 7
specification, that seems too limp to me.
O A
I can't offer you anything else.
I'm sorry.
9 Q
Well, the information in the order concerning 10 these proceedings asks the Board to make findings concerning 11 who participated in, who had knowledge of or condoned or by 12 their dereliction or culpable neglect allowed the leak rate
(_#
)
13 falsifications.
And clearly these falsifications would have 14 never appeared if somebody had paid attention to this leak 15 rate test and gotten it straightened out.
The situation 16 P would not have existed in January, February and March of
'79, 17 if it had been fixed in October, November or December of '78; 18 isn't that true?
19 A
Yes, sir.
0 20 Q
So you see what I'm trying to understand is where 21 this neglect occurred.
Is it at the initiating end or at the 22 end where the response should have been?
23 A
The way you are stating it, my answer to that 24 would be it looks likes everybody fell short of what they
([ )
25 should have done, the top end all the way to the bottom.
i ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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Q That's certainly the impression we have gotten 2
over the five weeks we have been sitting here.
That it was 3
-- nobody feels that what was done was proper.
On the other i
4 hand, you can't really say:
Well, this individual should 5
have been the prime mover.
That's what I call a management 6
deficiency in the structure that we see.
7 You, as the foreman, you would think -- not only 8
you but the other foremen, recognize that this is the tool i
.9 that you had to use to do this surveillance, and every 10 foreman I talked to had reservations about it.
But he 11 couldn't get it fixed.
That seems strange to me.
12 A
Well, I guess I sort of have to say you would have
- (:)
13 had to have been there at the time, '78 and '79 time frame to 14 realize that this wasn't our only concern.
We had concerns f
j 15 with other things in the plant and even those things took f
16 time to get anything done with.
j.
l 17 So, maybe -- just stick on the foreman level, 18 maybe we got in a rut of just assuming everything takes time, i
19 paperwork takes time.
So, therefore, got to be patient and 20 wait for the whole wave of< paperwork to make its round before 21 we'll see the results.
22 Q
We haven't seen any evidence that any paperwork 23 was ever started.
It sure takes a long time if it never gets i
i I
24 by go.
- ()
25 A
I'll agree with you.
i ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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Q Apparently, in your conversation with Judge 2
Bright, apparently you never felt that it was appropriate to 3
identify any of these surveillance tests as representing 4
either a deficiency or exception as required by 5
administrative procedure 1010?
6 A
That's true.
7 Q
Can you tell us why, looking at these surveillance 8
test results, they didn't look like a deficiency?
9 A
No, sir.
I really can't tell you what my thinking 10 was other than I felt the plant was safe and I had good 11 results, good computer results.
That's the only answer I can 12 give you today.
O 13 Q
Well, you had " good" computer results which you 14 didn't believe.
The computer might have said the leak rate 15 was a half a gallon a minute.
Did you believe it?
16 A
I believe it gave me a good ballpark number and 17 that it was telling me the best information it had.
Through 18 my own observations, tours through the plant and other 19 things, I didn't really have any reason to doubt that the 20,
computer was giving me its best information.
I may not have i
21 believed.5; I may have believed it was anywheres from 0 to 1 22 l gpm, but --
l 23 I Q
In your tours of the plant, what fraction of the 24 primary piping system could you inspect?
fD 25 A
I could inspect it all.
wJ ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 Q
You could see all of the primary piping?
2 A
Anything that was outside of a concrete wall.
1 3
Q What about inside concrete walls?
l 4
A I couldn't see in there other than seeing leakage 5
coming from -- running down the walls.
I 6
Q You didn't feel that there were places that you q
7 couldn't inspect visually --
l 8
A No, sir.
1 9
Q
-- in the primary reactor coolant loop?
10 A
No, sir, e
That'salittlebitofhsurprisebecauseothers 11 Q
12 expressed the view that there was a substantial fraction of 13 it that they couldn't see, couldn't visually inspect?
i 14 A
With the reactor under power you were not allowed 15 without good reason to go into the D rings.
But I think you i
16 all know that -- it is on record -- that I did enter the D 17 rings under power to observe a leak on a pressurizer valve.
18 So that proves that you can go into the D rings for 19 observation.
I 20'I Outside of that, you could walk over to the sump i
i 21 and see what is running in the sump, which will tell you that 22 there's leak inside.
You can stand on top of the D rings and i
23 look for steam, which is what you would see coming up in the 24 atmosphere, which would tell you there's a leak someplace
()
25 inside.
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1 You may not physically see every inch of the pipe 2
but you could definitely see the indications if there was a 3
leak in that area or not.
4 Q
Well, I accept that.
That's the basis, in your 5
mind, you felt you didn't know exactly what the leak was --
6 leak rate was, but you didn't think it was large or you would 7
have seen these visual indications.
8 MR. MC BRIDE:
If I might just make a suggestion 9
that the Board have this witness -- if you'll recall 10 Mr. Voigt's suggestion to you this morning about Mr. Kunder's 11 testimony in the Stier assessment of Mr. Kunder with respect 12 to leakage in January of 1979, that whole controversy, I
! "l 13 believe you'll find, if you inquire, that Mr. Hoyt is 14 referring to the same testimony.
15 JUDGE CARPENTER:
Would you state the beginning of 16 it again?
I got most of it.
17 MR. MC BRIDE:
I'n trying to be helpful but not be 18 too suggestive to the Board.
There was a period in January N
19 1979 in which there was a steam leak inspected, of Which 20 '
Mr. Stier has made an assessment.
Mr. Hoyt is a 21 knowledgeable witness on that subject.
t 22 l JUDGE KELLEY:
Is this the reference to the time 23.
when you went inside the D ring to observe the leak?
I 24 !
THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
t I,I 25 ;
u-I l
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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BRT 1
BY' JUDGE KELLEY:
2 Q
Just a follow-up question.
You have been 3
exploring with Judge Carpenter the notion that by walking i
l 4
around the plant and looking for leaks you could derive some 5
level of confidence that some large amo' int of leaking wasn't 6
taking place.
I haven't heard you place a number on it.
But 7
I assume that you are not saying that a walk-around of that-8 kind is not a complete substitute for an accurate leak rate 9
test, which is supposed to quantify it right down to the 10 tenth of a gallon; correct?
i 11 A
Correct.
I 12 Q
Okay.
But just how much confidence do you get by
!i '
13 that kind of an inspection, in terms of gallons per minute?
14 Could you give us an estimate?
Could you be fairly sure that l
15 you weren't experiencing unidentified leakage of 2 gallons 16 per minute?
i 17 A
Yes, sir.
I think I could.
18 Q
Because effectively, if you don't really believe I
19 the computer in the leak rate test and you are really going i
20 on other indications of leakage, you are really, in effect, 21 setting aside the leak rate test and looking at something 22 else; right?
i 23 A
Yes, sir.
i 24 JUDGE KELLEY:
Okay.
!(:)
25 i
l l
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BY JUDGE CARPENTER:
2 Q
And isn't it true, Mr. Hoyt, that in this whole 3
area of leak detection you were encouraged to use all these 4
other ways of qualitatively detecting leaks?
5 A
Yes, sir.
6 Q
So that fits in with what you are saying:
You are 7
saying, quantitative, 2 gallons a minute is roughly 3000 8
gallons a day.
That's an appreciable amount of liquid that 9
one might look for.
10 A
Yes, sir.
11 Q
Well, I think the perception you have been 12 providing us is useful.
Turn over to page 3 of your O
13 statement.
In the middle of the third paragraph you say "I 14 discarded all leak rate tests showing unidentified leakage in 15 excess of 1 gallon per minute because in my judgment those 16 tests were invalid."
17 That's based on what you felt was your knowledge la from other indications of what the leak rate might be?
19 A
Yes, sir.
20 Q
Not that you thought high numbers were invalid and 21 ;
low numbers were valid --
22 !
A No, sir.
I 23 0
-- in terms of the computer output?
It hasn't 24 been so clear to us that other foremen had quite that
()
25 perception.
They simply felt that the high ones were suspect ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 so they discarded them without emphasizing the fact that they 2
needed some backup, namely, visible observation, to be sure 3
that numbers like 2 weren't real.
4 A
I can't speak for the other foremen.
I can only 1
5 speak for myself.
And it was a very religious thing for me 6
to make my tours of the plant.
And in those tours I did 7
inspect everything that I could as far as systems, whether it 8
be RCS connected system or whether it be just a secondary 9
system.
I tried very hard to look at all of this and see t
10 where any problems were that needed repair work.
So I sort i
11 of feel, myself, that I had a pretty good estimate of what 12 was going on in the plant as far as any kind of Icakage.
O 13 Q
Well, I see your posture, that you didn't feel 14 that this leak rate test was -- the absence of the leak rate 15 test, in the sense of producing a result that you could have 16 confidence in, was a serious safety problem in your mind 17 because of your visual inspection.
And apparently it just 18 made you tolerant of the fact that this thing went on week 19 after week after week; somebody looking into it.
20 A
Yes, sir.
21 Q
Well, the upshot of all this, of course, is that 22 f some people, as it begins to get more difficult to get t
23 computer printouts with numbers smaller than 1, which some 24 people termed good, a lot of people got into manipulating the
()
25 test as it became more difficult to get those kind of ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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results.
In your mind, where does the fault lie for this?
2 Foi this situation?
It isn't something that was short term 3
at all.
The plant had been operating almost a year; almost 4
October to March.
It was reasonably up to speed.
It was l
5 commercial.
~
6 You mentioned there were a lot of other problems.
7 Was it that the work load was so high that this thing just 8
never got a chance to be given the proper attention?
9 A
I really can't answer that.
I don't know what the i
10 work load of the other departments were, you know, that 11 really should have been -- let's say the computer people.
I t
12 don't know what their work load was.
I don't know what the 13 work load of the upper management people that should have 14 been involved in this, I don't know what their work load was.
15 Q
Was your shift generating items that they had to 16 give attention to?
17 A
I would say no more than any other shift.
Every 10 shift we generated paperwork that had to go up through the 19 chain for different people to review and to look at.
Some of 20 them may be such things as work requests for something to be 1
21 l repaired.
It may be some other surveillance that a 22 l surveillance engineer had to look at and prove.
There were 23 l just volumes of paperwork created every shift that went off 24 in different directions for different people to review.
25 I
()
Q You didn't have the feeling that it was excessive?
1 ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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A That I can't answer.
Only the people receiving 2
the paperwork would know whether it was excessive or not.
3 JUDGE CARPENTER:
Thank you very much.
4 THE WITNESS:
Thank you.
l 5
BY JUDGE KELLEY:
6 Q
Mr. Hoyt, I have three or four areas I would like l
7 to talk to you about.
Could I ask you, first, to turn to 8
test number 94 in the NRC study.
I mentioned this to your l
9 counsel before we resumed.
10 MR. MC DRIDE:
Yes, Judge Kelley.
He's had a
(
11 chance to look at those two.
I i
12 JUDGE KELLEY:
That's fine.
I 13 BY JUDGE KELLEY:
I 14 Q
okay.
This is the test that occurred on the 13th 15 of January, 1979.
We don't need to go into every detail of l
16 it.
There is a specific point that I wanted to ask you about 17 but it does reflect on the computer printout page that you 18 approved it, that Hartman was the surveillance operator.
I 19 think the log indicates that Mr. Booher was on the panel for 20 that test.
21 And if you look at the Xerox copy of the makeup 22 tank strip chart about three or four pages past the computer 23 printout, the test itself, you will note, is bracketed by 24 heavy lines just to the left of center of the chart.
And the 1
(( )
25 analysis line at the bottom of the page, those two typed-in ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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lines, those are typed in by the NRR analyst.
They read this 2
as reflecting a water addition of 117 gallons at 9:50.
3 That's an addition that was logged in the CR0 log and I think 4
we can find an entry for it.
It was not included in the 5
calculation.
6 Do you see on the strip chart where the increase 7
of water, where the insertion of water is reflected?
8 A
Yes, sir.
9 0
Okay.
And then over on the log you have an entry 10 right about in the middle of the page at 10:00, an entry that 11 reads, " batched 117 gallons of water makeup tank."
Entered 12 apparently by Bocher; correct?
13 A
Yes, sir.
14 Q
Then going back to the computer printout sheet, if 15 you look at the questions just above the top half of the 16 page, the second question asks for operator-caused changes, 17 which I understand to include, where applicable, water 18 l additions; correct?
19 A
Yes, sir.
20 Q
And it says zero.
So, apparently when Mr. Hartman I
21 l answered the questions at the end of the test for the I
22 l computer and he entered the zero in response to that 23 question, he didn't, for some reason, reflect the fact that 24 117 gallons of water had been added.
Is that right?
(])
25 A
That's right, i
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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l 1
Q Okay.
Now, 60 gallons of water in a one-hour test 2
would mean 1 gallon per minute leakage; correct?
t j
3 A'
Yes, sir.
i
)
4 Q
So 117 is close enough to 120 to say it's about a 5
2-gallon difference; right?
I 6
A Yes, sir, i
i 7
Q So, if that water had been included in this l
8 calculation instead of a leak rate of.26 -- forget about the l
9 39 and say.26, or even
.3, the leak rate would have been i
10 something like 2.3 gallons per minute; right?
l 11 A
Yes, sir.
12 Q
Okay.
So, would you think -- we talked a couple
(
13 of minutes ago about just walking through the plant looking 14 for leak, that you would have seen a leak of 2.3 gallons per 4
{
15 minute?
2 16 A
Yes, sir.
17 Q
But apparently in this case you hadn't.
If there l
18 was a walk-through associated with this test -- I don't know 1
19 whether there was or there wasn't -- but that would have 1
20 flagged the fact that there was a high leakage rate if that i
21 thesis is correct?
4 22 A
Yes, sir.
23 Q
So what does this indicate?
That the whole test 24 is just completely out of whack?
Or what do you conclude
()
25 from looking at this test and looking at the fact that a i
i l
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substantial water addition was not included in the test?
2 A
Well, what I conclude there was a lack of 3
communications between the two CROs.
4 Q
Okay.
5 A
And there was a lack of identifying it to myself 6
when I signed this.
7 Q
In a case like this, whose would be, in your 8
opinion, the primary responsibility for making sure that this 9
water addition got included in the leak rate calculation?
10 I'm assuming that -- if my assumption is wrong tell me -- but 11 I'm assuming that normally the person on the panel, in this 12 case, Booher, would have actually batched the water in; O
13 correct?
14 A
Yes, sir.
15 Q
Where would the responsibility properly be in 16 seeing to it that it got reflected in the leak rate test?
17 A
I'd saf it is the man running the surveillance.
18 He's the man that didn't ask the question.
19 Q
So the computer says to him Did you add any 20 ;
water?
In effect, he, then, could look in the log and he 21 ll would have found this if he had done this, I take it?
i 22 l A
He could have looked in the log or just verbally 23 add.
I 24 l Q
one way or the other he should have found out;
()
25 correct?
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1 A
Yes, sir.
2 Q
Would this indicate -- back up a bit.
3 When asked a while ago about the nature of your 4
review -- I think Judge Bright asked you about that -- and 5
you said words to the ef fect that you would look at the 6
computer printout and look at the bottom line, in this case, 7
.3.
If the numbers on there made sense and the amount were 8
under a gallon, you would approve it; is that correct?
9 A
Yes, sir.
10 Q
So I gather, then, that your review process would 11 not encompass normally your own -- for example, your own 12 reading of the waters, see if water got added?
,s( )
13 A
No, s3 r, logs, normally I reviewed them at the end 14 of the shift, not in the beginning or middle.
I waited until 15 l all entries were made.
When I was referring the CR0 log, l
16 l that's when I did it.
17 Q
But would you do it with a particular eye toward a 18 leak rate test or just to see whether the log looked okay?
19 l A
Just to see whether the log was correct.
20 I Q
So, in a case like theGhije _ue dust looked a t where 21 there was, in fact, a log entry of that water, you wouldn't, 22 '
I take it, have necessarily matched up the two in the leak 23,
rate, to see if the two got put together?
24 A
No, sir, f) 25 Q
As I'm sure you are aware, Mr. Iloy t, two of the t-i ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 three CROs on your shift, Mr. Blessing and Mr. Hartman, in 2
interviews, have acknowledged manipulation of leak rate 3
tests.
Turning fi.rst to Mr. Blessing, who has not testified 4
and we are not sure whether he will be here, but in any case, 5
we have earlier statements from him.
Let me just, rather 6
than paraphrasing, I'll just quote from the statement of his l
7 given to NRC investigators on April 10, 1980.
And this is an 8
excerpt that I'll read:
9 "He" -- meaning Blessing -
"He acknowledged that l
10 it was common practice, by a large portion of the control 11 room operators, to add hydrogen to the makeup tank while 12 running a leak rate surveillance test in order to assist in
(
13 getting good leaks rate results; i.e.,
results that met 14 technical specification requirements.
15 "At this time Blessing did not specifically 16 identify individuals who had actually added hydrogen to the 17 makeup tank but reiterated that it was common practice and 18 well known to personnel, at least up to the shift foreman 19 level of management."
20 So, here's Blessing saying, as I understand him, 21 it's perfectly common practice to add hydrogen in the hope 22 that the leak rate would turn out better and that was I
23 generally known, including by the foreman, and at a later l
24 point, I believe he refers to you specifically.
()
25 Yes, let me go on and read the next section from i
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the next page in the same vein.
Again, this is Blessing 2
talking to NRC investigators in 1980.
"He emphasized that it 3
was not secret that hydrogen was being added to the makeup 4
tank during the running of the reactor coolant safety test 5
and it was a total common practice.
He said it was his 6
opinion that supervisors and foremen were well aware of this 7
practice.
He again reiterated that nine out of 10 times the 8
hydrogen addition did not work and therefore was not 9
pertinent to this issue.
When specifically asked what 10 foremen were aware of the hydrogen additions, he stated that 11 he was confident that Dick Hoyt, his shift foreman, was well 12 aware of the hydrogen additions during the leak rate tests."
O 13 I'll stop there.
14 So, comment on Mr. Blessing's statement?
15 A
As far as adding hydrogen affecting leak rate; no, 16 sir.
I was not aware that it would and I do not believe that 17 it would.
18 Today, I have been, by some of the experts -- they 19 l showed me their opinion but I'm still of a different 20 f opinion.
l 21 As far as adding hydrogen during a leak rate, by 22 procedure there was nothing that said you couldn't do it.
It 23 is not up to -- it's a gas, it increases pressure, which is 24 no different than if I add water and increase the level, I'm
()
25 still increasing pressure.
So, even if they did do it, I ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 wouldn't tell them not to.
2 Q
Well, more specifically let me ask you this:
In 3
light of what I read to you, Mr. Blessing, at least, says 4
that he in fact was adding hydrogen, hoping that it would 5
improve the leak rate result.
6 One, do you believe that that's a true statement 7
by Blessing or do you know one way or the other?
8 A
I don't know.
I'm saying my opinion is that it 9
wouldn't affect it and you didn't know that it affected it if 10 it did.
All right?
11 Q
Okay.
That's two points.
I've got a third 12 point.
Regardless of what you might have thought about the O
13 technical efficacy of adding hydrogen or not, were you aware 14 of the fact that one of your operators, namely, Blessing, I
15 thought that it was helpful in that regard and was using it 16 for that purpose?
17 A
No, sir.
18 Q
Let me shift over, then, to Mr. Ilartman.
19 Mr. Ilartman gave a number of interviews.
I won't try to 20 quote from them but Mr. 11artman, as you are probably aware, 21 described a variety of ways in which leak rate tests could be 22 l manipulated, hydrogen addition being one.
He also spoke of l
23 i water additions that would not be included in the calculation 24 and therefore would affect the leak rate test.
Whether
()
25 number 94 that we just looked at is an example of that or not ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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I don't know.
That could have been, as you suggested, a 2
miscommunication.
3 I suppose alternatively it could have been 4
Mr. Hartman deliberately manipulating leak rate tests.
- But, 5
be that as it may, he spoke of a general practice on his part 6
to use both water r l hydrogen to manipulate leak rate 7
tests.
And so, I have really the same question:
Were you 8
aware of the fact that Mr. Ilartman was engaged in those kinds 9
of activities?
10 A
No, sir.
j 11 Q
Did you ever -- I gather if you weren't aware of 12 it you had no discussions with him along those lines?
O 13 A
No, sir.
14 Q
What we have to grapple with here is, to 15 understand what was taking place and satisfy ourselves that 1
16 what you tell us and they tell us took place can both be made 17 to fit together and, if not, who is telling the truth and who 18 is not.
19 We have these descriptions of activities by 20 '
Blessing and llartman.
We don't have, to my knowledge, any 21 l very explicit statement involving you as far as they were 22 concerned, with the exception of the statement I just read a 23 few minutes ago where Blessing said he thought that you knew 24 about these hydrogen additions.
lie didn't flat say that he 25 told you or refer to any specific incident.
But, if they ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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were engaged in those kinds of activities, how are we to 2
understand that those activities could have taken place and 3
you wouldn't have known about it?
What was going on between 4
you and them, if you were supervising their work very 5
closely.
What are we to make of this?
6 A
You say " supervising them very closely."
I 7
wouldn't say that I supervised them very closely.
In fact, 8
looking over their shoulder 9
Q Fine.
I don't want to build in an assumption 10 that's not true.
By all means, clarify that, f
11 g A
I had full confidence in May operators that they 12 knew how to do their work.
I did not stand to look over O
13 their shoulders to see what they were doing.
As I stated 14 previously, you know, I had tours of the plant to do.
I had 15 other paperwork to do.
I had lots of things that I had to do 16 on the shift also.
17 I would have to make a special effort if I wanted 18 to look over somebody's shoulder to take the time to watch 19,
and see what they were doing and I never felt that I had to I
20 !
do that with my operators.
21 l Q
So are we to conclude -- I think I understand what 22 l you are saying -- are we to conclude from that, then, that I
23 '
Blessing and Hartman were using various tricks and devices to i
24 give you a computer printot t under a gallon a minute without
()
25 !
telling you what they were doing?
I i
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1 A
If in_ fact they did that; yes, sir.
2 Q
So, in a sense, they are producing a desired 3
result in the sense that a computer printout under a gallon a 4
minute is what the system wants.
And yet in another sense _,
5 if we believe their statements, they are doing it in a 6
deceptive manner and then walking up to you with a piece of 7
paper and saying:
Hey, sign here.
And you proceed to do 8
that without knowing, I take it, that the result has been 9
manipulated.
10 Knowing what you know -- again, using hindsight, 11 knowing what you know about the situation at the time, your 12 relationship with the two gentlemen I have referred to, 13 l Hartman and Mr. Blessing -- I am not referring to Mr. Booher I
14 '
simply because he testified this morning and I'll ask you 15 about him in a moment.
But he is not like Hartman and 16 Blessing, admitted that "I manipulated results."
Hartman and 17 Blessing did.
So that's why, I think, I'm emphasizing them.
18 But, taking into account your recollection of the 19 situation and your relationship with them and your own 20 estimate of them as people, do you think it plausible for us 21 ;
to conclude that they were pulling the wool over your eyes on 22 these tests?
l l
23 i A
Yes, sir.
I 24 Q
Mr. Booher testified this morning, and the 25 situation is different with Mr. Booher.
We have the evidence u
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before us and we'll have to assess that, consider his j
2 testimony.
We haven't reached any conclusions about whether l
3 Mr. Booher was engaged in manipulation or not.
But would 4
your view be any different with regard to Booher than it 5
would be with regard to Hartman and Blessing, so far as 6
manipulation is concerned?
7 A
Are you asking me do I feel that Ray may have 8
manipulated-things along with them?
9 Q
Yes.
I'm asking you that.
Maybe'not as neatly 10 and directly as I should, but that's a fair statement of it.
j 11 A
I find it hard to believe that any of them
)
i i
12 manipulated any of it.
I really had not given any thoughts
(
13 along the line.
I really felt that I could trust all three
)i l
14 of them, to having everybody admit that they were doing it 1
15 and to say whether Ray was doing it or not, I couldn't say, i
1 16 Q
Can you draw any distinction but I'm -- and I'm 17 not trying to put words in your mouth but, in your own mind:
i 18 Do you think it more.or less likely that Mr. Booher would be 19 engaging in manipulation than would Blessing or Hartman?
i 20 A
I think it would be less likely for Ray because of I
21 the three, Ray was the more professional CRO on the shift.
)
i 22 He was the man really that carried the shift, so to speak.
1 23 My right-hand man when I wasn't in the control room.
24 Q
Was he the senior of the three or just the one you
()
I 25 relied on more or both?
I ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 A
No, I think Hartman was really the senior but Ray j
2 was the one I.could rely on because I knew I could trust him 3
when I wasn't there.
i 4
JUDGE KELLEY:
Excuse me a moment.
l 5
(Discussion off the record.)
j 6
BY JUDGE KELLEY:
7 Q
Mr. Hoyt, I wanted to ask you a couple of i
8 questions about a certain type of water addition.
The 1
i j
9 typical batched water addition will show a sharp, almost J
10 vertical line on the makeup tank strip chart; correct?
I 11 A
Yes, sir.
i 12 Q
We have had the term introduced in this hearing
!()
13 that speaks of a jogged, j-o-g-g-e-d, water addition, which I j
14 take it means a water addition put in the makeup tank 15 gradually, at least compared to the rather quick way in which-16 a normal batch addition occurs.
Is that your understanding 17 of it also?
18 A
Yes, sir.
i 19 Q
Can you tell us how, at TMI-2, as a matter of j
20 which controls one manipulates, how one makes a jogged water I
21 addition?
How is that physically done?
{
22 A
Well, you say "how was it physically done?"
That
.l 23 I can't answer for you because I never seen anybody do it.
I 24 can only theorize, knowing the plant and if I wanted to do
()
25 that, all right, I can tell you how I would do it.
i l
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Q All right.
Please do.
2 A
Well, most of the time we took water out of what 3
we called a reactor coolant bleed tank with a pump, and on 4
the discharge side of that pump there was an air-operated 5
valve which had a variable position to it depending on the 6
air pressure applied.
That fed into the batch controller and 7
into the makeup tank.
8 If you wanted to jog water into the system, I'd i
9 have to have a man on the pump to start the pump to regulate 10 my little air-operated valve here.
I would have to have a 11 man over-on the batch controller.
He would either have to 12 manipulate batch controller or have an operator out in the hs i
13 plant by passing the batch controller.
The batch controller i
14
-- I don't know if Nick brought this thing up -- had a very 15 loud distinct click to it every time a gallon went through 16 it.
You could hear it throughout the control room, sit there 17
'and go click, click, click, click.
If they wanted to hide 18 this they wouldn't want to have that this clicking.
I would 19 see an operator out in the plant to bypass that and get water i
20 into the makeup tank.
Under that type of arrangement I'm 21 sure I could jog water into that makeup tank that would not 22 show up on a strip chart.
23 Q
That's the reason for doing it, I assume?
If you 24 want to manipulate a. test you don't want any telltale blip on
()
25 the strip chart?
ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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BRT 4290 1
A I assume that's what this is all about.
People 2
trying to get water in without anybody noticing it.
3 Q
Right.
4 A
It could have been -- could be done.
f 5
Q Under the procedure that you described, though, 6
you have three different operators cooperating in this 7
venture?
8 A
You would have to to have three because you have 9
the discharge and volume of the pump, which was air-operated, 10 tends to fluctuate a little bit, up and down a little bit; 11 you have somebody watching the makeup tank chart and he has 12 to stay up there continually watching this thing, is it 13 continuing my slope normally as it goes, I'm not going flat, 1
14 I'm not going uphill.
15 So you would have to have a collaboration of x
16 several people in order to do it.
I don't think it was done 17 that way.
j 18 Q
Can you think of any other way to jog water into 19 the makeup tank rather than just the way you just described?
20 A
I'm sure -- there were probably some other ways, 21 but off the top of my head; no, sir.
22 JUDGE KELLEY:
Okay.
Thank you.
23 BY JUDGE CARPENTER:
24 Q
Are both the demineralized water and this --
1 j
(:)
25 A
Reactor coolant bleed tank.
i i
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1 Q
-- reactor coolant bleed tank water, both came 2
through the back controller?
3 A
Yes, sir.
4 JUDGE KELLEY:
Anybody have any other questions?
5 MS. WAGNER:
Yes, sir.
6 (Discussion off the record.)
7 JUDGE KELLEY:
Questions from counsel?
8 Mr. McBride?
9 MR. MC BRIDE:
No, sir.
10 MR. MC BRIDE:
No, sir.
11 JUDGE KELLEY:
Anybody else?
12 JUDGE BRIGHT:
Bear with my reading, Mr. Hoyt.
13 BY JUDGE BRIGHT:
14 Q
If you were obtaining only "ballpark estimates" of 15 leakage, as stated on page 2 of your prefiled testimony, and 16 were unable to determine precisely whether unidentified 17 leakage was below 1 gallon per minute, what w:ss the basis for 18 your belief, as stated on page 2 of that testimony, that you 19 "could ensure net unidentified leakage -did not present a 20 safety problem"?
21 A
Well, throughout my tours of the plant to look at 22 all these different parameters, piping and valves, et cetera, 23 just from that if I never found anything that told me, hey, I 24 had a hazard here that could develop into something
(( ))
25 l dangerous, then I assumed I was safe.
And my tours normally ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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included enough of the systems' that that was my deduction at 2
the end of it.
3 Q
In light of your testimony that you were not 4
always able to determine precisely that unidentified leakage 5
was below 1 gallon per minute, on page 3 of your prefiled 6
testimony, was it your view that leakage in excess of 1 7
gallon per minute did not present a safety problem?
8 A
I guess my answer to that would have to be if I 9
found something that was' leaking, it would have to be 10 determined where it was leaking from.
I've never given much 11 thought as to where I had a cutoff, what was safe or unsafe.
12 It would be determined by where it came from.
O 13 JUDGE BRIGHT:
Thank you.
14 MS. WAGNER:
Could we get some expansion on that 15 answer?
He is saying, then, that unidentified leakage in 16 excess of'1 gpm might not be a safety problem?
It depends 3
i 17 where it comes from?
18 THE WITNESS:
If I went to a valve and the valve 19 packing is leaking, all right?
Now, one thing, I identified 20 where th~e leak is, all right?
The valve may be one of these 21 type of valves that I can open up onto the back seat and seal 22 the packing from the leak.
All right? 'There, I'm not 23 endangering the plant, I'm not endangering anything, I can 24 just completely open the valve and put it on the back seat
()
25 and seal the leak.
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1 If I go up to a pipe at a weld and I have a weld 2
that's bad, it's leaking, I cannot isolate that.
It may be 3
just a trickle.
But I call that unsafe because it's on a 4
weld; I cannot isolate it, because it's going to grow.
It 5
may be anything from a valve that's leaking to a weld that's 6
only a trickle, not greater than 1 gpm.
Therefore I'm going 7
to say it's unsafe, no matter how much it is leaking.
8 BY JUDGE CARPENTER:
9 Q
Mr. Hoyt, I would like to have you turn to NRR 10 test 120, please.
All you are going to need to do is look at 11 the strip chart.
This is a surveillance test that doesn't 12 involve your shift at all, fs 13 In this test, apparently, Mr. Adams ran a test of 14 the so-called hydrogen effect, as best we can understand.
15 You notice in the center of the strip chart it's 16 labeled " leak rate test 120."
About in the middle of that 17 there's an arrow showing a time point where hydrogen was 18 added, and what I wanted to find out was:
We look at this as 19 a pretty clear demonstration that at least on this occasion 20.
when you add hydrogen to the makeup tank it changes the 21 signal that is fed to the strip chart recorder, apparently 22 because this differential pressure sensor didn't sense that 23 additional hydrogen on both legs equally.
24 I wanted to get your opinion.
Is there an (m) 25 alternate interpretation here?
When you said earlier you ss ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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didn't believe the hydrogen had an effect.
This is one of 2
the bases for a tentative view, at least on my part, that 3
perhaps hydrogen did have an effect.
4 A
I can't answer that for you, sir.
The 5
transmitters I'm referring to had a leg that went into the 6
top of the makeup. tank in the. gas space, and you had a leg 7
into the water side.
If I put pressure in there, both legs 8
should see it.
9 You don't put pressure in that stays at the top of 10 the tank and sometime later drifts down to the bottom.
It is 11 felt equally at all places.
12 I can't see where -- I don't know if this is an
, O 13 effect from the hydrogen or not.
I can't explain it.
14 Q
As far as we can tell is that's the only thing 15 that happened.
The hydrogen was added and th'e makeup tank 16 level recorder went up.
i 17 A
Well, that may have been.
But also looking at
~
18 this same strip I see -- not quite as elaborate, but I can go 19 over a couple of hours, I see another rise.in there where 20 nothing is indicated of anything done.
I can go all the way 21 back right straight to the beginning of this strip, I see a l
22 little bit of a levelization there.
I don't know what that 23 came from.
24 You know, so, because hydrogen was added at this j
()
25 time frame, maybe it had effect.
I don't know.
But I won't ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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say that it did.
I don't believe it did.
2 Q
Are you saying you think the amount of deflection 3
here is not large enough to be unusual?
That you 4
periodically would see upward movement equivalent to, S
perhaps, three chart divisions?
6 A
Well, that's roughly two or three and -- yes, I 7
can go along this strip chart and find two to three in other 8
places.
Maybe not over the same duration, but definitely two 9
or three increments.
10 Q
If the reference leg, the leg that went to the gas 11 phase at the top of the tank, had a low spot in it and liquid i
12 accumulated in that low spot, wouldn't that influence the O
13 transmission of pressure from the tank gas phase to the 14 sensor; in the sense that the gas you are sensing would have 15 to push that slug of water up the hill?
16 A
I can't answer that for you without taking, 17 really, some time to think about it.
18 l
Q Well, we are trying to get your help.
h A
The tank would normally run around 30 pounds of 19
~
20 pressure.
.That would take quite a bit of water to -- for me 21 right offhand to say that the water wouldn't affect it.
22 Q
We are talking about pressure changes here that 23 correspond, as I undqrstand it it, to inches of water.
We 1
looking at a chartge here that's two to three inches of 24 are e
()
25 water as expressed by pressure.
So these are really small t
j ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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changes in pressure that are being reflected in the strip 2
chart recorder, aren't they?
4 3
A Well, I don't know.
Does the log say what they 4
changed pressure to?
May I go back and review it?
It says 5
"added hydrogen."
It doesn't say what they changed the 6
pressure by, so I don't know.
I don't know where the 7
pressure was when they added it or what they ended up with.
8 That may have had some effect.
I just -- I'm sorry, I just 9
can't really help you with this.
10 Myself, I don't believe it was the hydrogen that 11 caused this.
12 Q
Well, I say, I just wanted to get your view.
q 13 Others expressed the view that this is unequivocally a 14 demonstration of how hydrogen can affect a leak rate test.
15 You add the hydrogen and the sensor temporarily shows bias, 16 in this case, in a positive direction.
17 A
What I see here, it looks to me it's showing over 18-pretty near a half-hour range.
That doesn't make sense to 19 me.
Even in light of you saying it has to push the water 20 uphill, why would it have to take a half hour to push a i
21 couple of inches of water uphill?
22 No, sir.
To me -- I can't agree that there's 23 hydrogen additions shown there that affects that' leak rate.
24 Q
Well, certainly it's difficult to reach a firm
()
f 25 conclusion based on a sample of 1.
As opposed to --
i ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 A
Yes, sir.
If it would have been a blip, maybe I 2
could agree with you.
But this time duration and my feelings 3
and understanding of the way the instrument worked, et 4
cetera, I can't help you.
I don't believe that that hydrogen 5
addition is what caused that trace.
6 Q
You don't feel that a slug of water in the 7
so-called dry sensing line would produce a bias and pressure 8
on that side so that it wouldn't equalize?
9 A
Not anything that would look like that.
10 Q
What would you think it would look like?
11 A
I said, maybe a blip when you added the hydrogen.
12 As soon as you stop adding and changing pressure you should
,s 13 b'e right back to a normal-type reading.
At least what you 14 had before.
You would have had to have the water in there 15 before you added the hydrogen.
16 Q
Yes.
17 A
And why should it take a half hour for this to 18 stablize after you add _the hydrogen?
It should only have 19 been the fluctuation at the time you were changing the 20 pressure on that sensing line.
21 Q
Well, if the increased pressure doesn't cause the 22 gas to bubble through that slug, which simply displaces the 23 slug as if it were a piston and then for some time later for 24 some reason it begins to bubble through, then it would come f 'l 25 back, then the pressure would equalize.
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'298 4
1 A
I cannot argue that with you because right off~the 2
top of my head I don't remember the directions of the sensing 3
lines.
.I don't remember any place in those lines, though, 4
that this effect would occur.
You may be right.
I wouldn't i
5 argue that point.
i 6
Q Thank you very much. 'Since others have pointed 7
this test out to us I just wanted to get your reaction.
8 Thank you.
9 MR. MC BRIDE:
Judge Carpenter, I wanted to point 10 out to you but I didn't want to interrupt the colloquy, you i
11 began by saying this was an experiment performed by i
12 Mr. Adams.
The NRR may have7 typed his.name on the sheet, but 13 if you will recall his testimony he did not recall 14 participating in this and he denied that the handwriting to 15 the best of his recollection was his.
16 I also wanted to point out to you that you may 17 recall the testimony of Mr. Chwastyk, which was to the same 18 effect about the same test.
The same effect as what Mr. Hoyt 3
19 just stated.
20 JUDGE CARPENTER:
Mr. McBride,'I accept your 21 products.
I recall Mr. Adams' views about whether or not 22 this is his writing, whether or not this was the test, since 23 his memory was he did a series of them which we cannot find 24 any evidence for.
That's not the point here.
I just was
()
2 25 trying to get Mr. Hoyt's evaluation to almost a hypothetical, ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 if you will.
If you saw a strip chart record like this and 2
saw this excursion, upward excursion in the makeup tank level 3
strip chart record that correlated with adding hydrogen, how 4
would you feel about that?
5 THE WITNESS:
I would feel there was sonething 6
besides the hydrogen that caused this trace.
7 JUDGE CARPENTER:
Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE KELLEY:
Mr. Hoyt, that completes our 9
questioning process.
Thank you very much for coming down 10 here today and your responses and attention to questions.
11 Thank you very much, you are excused.
12 THE WITNESS:
Thank you.
\\-)
13 (The witness stood down. )
14 JUDGE KELLEY:
Off the record.
15 (Discussion off the record.)
16 JUDGE KELLEY:
If there's nothing further, we will 17 stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 8:30.
18 (Whereupon, at.4:00 p.m.,
the hearing was 19 adjourned, to reccnvene at 8:30 a.m.,
on Wednesday, October 20 29, 1986.)
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