ML20140B071

Transcript of 810827 Affirmation Session 81-32 in Washington,Dc.Pp 1-15

ML20140B071
Person / Time
Issue date:	08/27/1981
From:	NRC COMMISSION (OCM)
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Shared Package
ML20140B076	List: ML20140B071 ML20140B078
References
FRN-46FR18045, REF-10CFR9.7, RULE-PR-2 SECY-81-020E, SECY-81-20E, NUDOCS 8109100306
Download: ML20140B071 (18)

Text

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NUC~J.AR Rhw2 TORY CCMMISSION

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-u bg'u COMMISSION MEETING d '

)'f,f l' In the .%tter cf: PUBLIC. MEETING AFFIRMATION

• SESSION 81-32 l .

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(.  : DATI: August 27, 1981 PAG 7.,s: 1 - 15 AT: Washington, D. C.

• RLWING ALDERSON ~

q f. Q 400 Virgd d-a Ave., 5.W. Washir.g :: , . C, C. 20024

- Talachena: (202) 554-2345 8109100306 810827 PDR 10CFR PDR PT9.7

1 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA ,.

2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION

, 3 4 PUBLIC MEETING 5 AFFIRMATION SESSION 81-32 6

7 Nuclear Regulatory Commission Room 1130 8 1717 H Street, N.W.

Washington, D.C.

9 Thursday, August 27, 1981 10 The Commission met, pursuant to notice, at 3:40 p.m.

11 l BEFORE:

12 NUNZIO PALLADINO, Chairman of the Commission 13 VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner

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PETER A. BRADFCRD, Commissioner 15 JOHN F. AHEARNE, Commissioner 16 THOMAS ROBERTS, Commissioner 17 ALSO PRESENTS 18 SAMDEL CHILK 19 LEONARD EICKWIT 20 MARTIN MALSCH 21 F0BREST REMICK 22 23 24 25 4

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I" 1 EH2CIIDIEEE 2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: We vill call the meeting to l

l 3 ord er.

7 4 This is an affirmation and discussion session.-

5The number of items were listed on the agenda. I will ask 6 the Secretary to walk us through the list.

7 MR. CHILK4 The first item is SECY-81-20D, Policy Son Proceeding with Pending Construction Permit and 9 Manuf acturing License Applications. A majority of the 10 Commission, the Chairman, Commissioners Ahearne and Roberts, 11 have approved the final rule for cps and MLs as modified by 12 two EDO mesos and as f urther modified by a Palladino 13 cha nge . Commissioners Gilinski and Bradford disapproved the

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14 paper and have provided separate papers.

15 Would you please affirm your vot es?

16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs Aye.

17 COMMISSIONER ROBERTSs Aye.

18 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Aye.

19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY. Let me add for the record, 20at least so far as the manufacturing licenses go, there is 21 one closer agreement than there was before and while my 22 views are not entirely reflected in the additional paragraph 23 that has been added, I am pleased to see it. I expressed 24 some views. I would be ple a sed if they would be attached.

25 MR. CHILXs Yes, your views and Mr. Bradford's ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 p.

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(' 1 views will be attached. .

2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: And I also provided my r

m 3 views. .

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4 ER. CHILK: Yes.

5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: And I may have some views to 6 attach but I have r.ot had a chance to wrire them yet.

7 HR. CHILK4 The second paper is81-20E. A 8 majority of the Commission, the Chairman, Commissioners 9 Ahearne and Roberts, have approved the paper with 10 modifications to Section 2.504 that they have agreed to and 11 which were distributed today. Commissioner Bradford has not 12 responded.

13 Commissioner Gilinski, I do not know whether this k 14 changes your previous stand .

j 15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: It was unclear to me that 16 ve were going to deal with this today.

17 MR. CHILK: That is the one you were really 18 talking about a moment ago.

19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Which is D and which is E?

4 20 NR. CHILK The D paper was a basic paper that 21 covered the rules of both the cps and the MLs. The E paper 22 then makes a modification conforming changes that are 23 required and makes a change in the preamble.

24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Yes. I suggested as I

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25rer. ember that it be restricted to the plants which are ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINtA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. 3.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

4 (G 1 listed in D.

t 2 MR. ChILKs That is right. Your original vote was

.-s 3 tha t it be limited to the plants listed in the CP and ML 1 .

4 rule.

5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs I did not realize we were 6 going to do E. I as sorry to take your time. Do you have E 7 there?

8 MR. BICKWITs Here it is.

9 . COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: It talks about the rule 10 being sufficient for licensing. Since the rule applies to 11 specific plants I think this is a matter of consistency.

12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE The rule does apply to 13 certain plants.

1 ( ., 14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa The E ought to apply to 15 those plants too.

I 16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNF4 We very specifically in D 17 restricted it to a particular set of plants.

18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: My vote did not imply tha t i 19 20E vould apply only to those plants. I thought it was a 4

20 general statement with regard to the posture we were going 21 to have concerning cps and MLs.

22 However after a point that Comissioner Ahearne 23 brought up, I did agree that the hydrogen aspects of the 24 manuf acturing licenses were to be confirmed by some studies s -

25and I agreed with him that we ought to put tha t in. That is ALDERSoN REPCRTINC COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

5 I. 1 what we have added on 20E. 7 2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Right, but that oces into 3 the 20D rule or the rule covered by the paper --

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4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: I am going to have to ask 5 General Counsel.

6 MR. BICKWIT: I think the Commissioner is right 7 from the sta7dpoint of logic that since the rule itself

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8 applies only to a certain number of plants, the~ reservation 9 with respect to 2.764 and 2.504 really ought to conform to 10 tha t.

11 CHAIBMAN PA ;ADINO: I thought you were changing 1 12 2.764. .

13 MR. BICKWITa That is right. You change it so k' 14 tha t it conf orms to the f act that the rule itself deals only 15 with six, seven plants. You are saying if those six or

' 16 seven plants meet the requirements of AD-20D that tnat is 4

17 enough f or a license. You do not speak to any other cps in l 18 the future.

19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I think the background of 20 that was that when we were trying to struggle through this 21 process of what actions to take after Three Mile Island, we 22 first looked at operating plants. Then we looked at plants 231n the pipeline for their operating licenras. Then we j i

\- 24 turned to plants under construction and then we turned to 25 the plants that had construction applications pending.

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1 But at that time NRR when they came in with the r

2 proposals said they were really Looking at the plants whose

- 3 applications were at some certain stage of review and their 4 review was not intended to encompsss what kinds of general U

5 changes they would propose for construction permits in the 6 future.

7 So the rule that represents 20D when it vent out 8 and in our --

9 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: I understand 20D. I thought >

10 20E was modifying our general requirements.

11 HR. BICKWIT: Yes, it was. But I think the 12 logical point here is right, that initially you had an 13 understanding tha t it would not be sufficient to comply with

- 14 the rules to get a license. Now you are changing that 15 because you have -ome up with a set of conditions that you 16 do regard as sufficient in the case of six plants. So you 17 ought to now change the other rule that says that it is not 18 sufficient to comply with the rules in order to get a 1911 cense . I would support that.

CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: I believe the wording as it 20 21 now exists does that.

22 NR. BICKWIT No, it does not. I think the 23 wording that we proposed should be modified in accordance

- 24 with --

CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: That is what was confusing 25 i

ALDEHSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 p.

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(~ , 1 me. The way it was written it seemed to apply to all the 2 plants and I was ready to vote on that.  ;

1 r, 3 MR. BICKWIT: We recommend that it be restricted.

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4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINOs I guess I would not objec,t to 5 limiting it to these plants until we have a chance to look 6 at it further.

7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: All right.

8 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO But we did add that we wanted 9 the decision on hydrogen for the manufacturinc licenses to to wait the evaluation of the results of containment, loading 11 and mitigation studies. That was a modification. )

12 I would go along with at least for the time beint 13 only to those plants that are covered by 20D.

i 14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEa That is right.

15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Is that agreed?

16 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: (Nods in the affirmative.)

17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I do not know that I ought 18 to vote, not having voted for the original rule, but I will 19 vote yes. I did vote for the original rule with the 20 exception of one provision. I think you ought to record it 21 tha t way. I will approve the rule except in the case of one 22 provision in the rule.

23 MR. CHILK: I will record it that way.

24 COMMISSIONER BRADFORDs I will just abstain from 25 this one. Not having approved the original rule, it does ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345

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. .f' 1 not make sense for me to vote on it. ,

2 MR. CHILK: The third item on the agenda was 3 SECY-81-464 which has been taken off. That is the l{-

4 Protection of Unclassified Safeguards Information.

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5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO We had two requests that it l

l 6 he deferred and we had two who felt that it ought to go back l

l 7 for some additional rewording.

8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I was happy with your 9 change.

- 10 CHAIRMA3 PALLADINO: It still has to go back for 11 rewording.

12 MR. CHILK It still has to go back for rewording 13 and we vill have to come back anyway.

14 CHAIBMAN PALLADINO: You were not ready yet.

15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Bight.

16 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: In either' event it would have 17 to come back'so it was decided to scratch it for today.

18 That gives everybody a chance to read the comments, get the 19 wording established so then we know what we voted on 20 specifically.

21 MR. CHILK: The f ourth ite m is SECY-81-473 which 221s a Federal Register Notice To Implement the Age 23 Discrimination Act. The Commission has approved unanimously

\ 24 the Federal Register Notice to amend 10 C.F.R. Part 4 to 25 prohibit discrimination in federally assisted Commission i

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1 programs on the basis of age.

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2 Would you please affirm your votes?

rw 3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Aye.

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4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: Aye.

5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEa Aye.

6 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS: Aye.

7 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: There was a comment made on 8 why it took us so long. Just for the benefit of at least 9 one newcomer to this Commission, it would be interesting to to find out why it took that long and to what extent might 11 those reasons impact on our future actions.

12 MR. CHILKs All right, sir.

13 The last item is SECY-81-503 which is a paper that k.. 14 was discussed this morning, Proposed Amendment to 10 C.F.R. 15 Part 50, Appendix E, in which there have.been three votes to 16 approve the proposed amendment with the date changed to 17 February 1, 1982 and modification of the letter, but I s

18believe there is some discussion.

19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: I think Commissioner Gilinski 20 had a thought he would like to present to us before we 21 confirm our votes.

22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa I would urge you to arrive 23 at the same result by another means and that is by sticking 24 with the current rule, as I said this morning a reasonably s_

2G liberal interpretation of how we apply the formula, period.

ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.

400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 s ..

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1 That way we could decide the matter now.

f 2 If you go out for the proposed rule, it will be, I es 3 do not know, a week or two before it is in the Federal

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4 Register. We have a 30-day comment period. The staff is 5 going to have to take account of all the comments, write a >

6 paper, respond to the comments, get back here. I would be 7 surprised if that process is completed in two months.

8 Likely it will take longer. I am sure John vill have a 9 generous estimate of how long that process takes. You 10 cannot be sure that you will end up with February 1 because

< 11 af ter ell, that is going out for public comment. It may 12 come cat shorter; it may come out later.

13 COMMISSIONER AHEAENE: It cannot come out much 14 shorter because there vill not be that much left.

15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs So in terms of getting

! 16 guidance, you are .giving a certain amount of guidance but l 17 you will not have decided the issue. It will come back 18 her e. We vill deal with it again.

19 One of the arguments that has been made is that it i 20 proposes a certain amount of the work on the staff to send 21 o ut letters to licensees indicating deficiences. In fact 22 that inf ormation is pretty well in hand because the 2311censees have sent in letters indicating where they are.

24 So it is pretir clear at least on the basis where a minimum 25of the deficiencies are.

ALDERSON REPORTIN?: COMPANY. INC.

400 VIRGINTA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

11 1 Against that verk you have to lay the work in f

2 preparing the papers, reviewing comments, bringing it back

(' 3here and taking up our time.

4' CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: But if we go the way you are 5 proposing to have the four-month rule, we would be reverting 6 to an enforcement action. In other words we say you are 7 deficient, now you have so much time in which to make l

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8 corrections. It does take the additional time to prepare 9 the indivitual letters, but then if I understand correctly 10 ~- and I might be wrong -- there are also various conflicts 11 that can arise or contesting of the issues that would not be 12 as clean cut as it would be if there v tre rules.

13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEa Also fcr all the reasons I 14 mentioned this morning, I believe that going the route of 15 the rule change is the most frank way of doing it. I think 161t is entirely cons * ? tent with the way that we originally 17 had intended for the rule to be put in place. I would 18 assume that under the firm hand of the new Chairman, the 19 staff vill turn to and achieve a reasonably rapid response 201n turnaround.

21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Do you see any ambiguity 22in the interpretation of the four-month period? Can we be 23 p ut in the position where we would be required to take 24 enf o rcemen t action now?

M R . BICK'JIT. I do not believe so. I think any 25 ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.

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.( 1 effort to get an enforcement arm of an agency to take f 2 enforcement action prior to the time it is ready is

,, 3 inevitably doomed to f ailure. So I do not really see that das a down side.

'l 5 CHAIBEAN PALLADINO: Len, you expressed confidence 6 this morning and I never had any reason to question it until 7 tha t question was raised this morning on the applicabiity of  !

8 the four months to the July 1st date.

9 MR. BICKWIT: That is certainly my reading.

10 0bviously John has reached another reading. We have 11 disagreed before.

12 CHAIEMAN PALLADINO: Can that become a scurce of 1311tigation or conf rontation, whatever?

14 MR. BICKWIT: I do not believe so. If it is 15 argued that the four-month period does not apply to this i

1 16 circumstance but that the Commission as a matter of 17 discretion chooses to apply a four-month period, it strikes f

18 me that it would be beyond the reach of the law.

19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Let me add one other thing.

20Maybe this is said in the report, but it is intended thr'.

21 upon the completion of the period ending February 1st that 22 ve do intend that there be appropriate enforcement action 23 taken thereaf ter f or those that do not comply.

24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNFt fes.

CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s I think that is an important 25 ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, i

400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON 0.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345

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( 1 point.

2 MR. BICKWITs Mr. Chairman, may I say that I do 3 not see any great difference in the staff mechanics, in-the

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4 sechenics resulting from either of these approaches. I 5think it really does boil down to the question that John 6 raised: which posture are you more comfortable in, 7 extending the rule or sticking with the rule and going with 8 an enforcement posture which is not an immediate one.

9 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: I gather you feel more 10 comfortable with --

11 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: We are sticking with the 12 rules --

13 MR. BICKWIT: That is between these two

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14 alterna tives.

15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Commissioner Roberts?

t to COMMISSIONER ROBERTS (Nods in the affirmative.)

17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Commissioner Bradford?

18 COMMISSIONER BRADFORDa You know my preferance was 19 f or using November 1 as the date after which enforcement 20 action would be tsken unless good cause were shown to the 2 contrary. But I think given the way things hsve been going 221a t ely , anytime I wind up five-eighths of the way to where I 23 thought I was, I had better just take it and shut up.

24 (Lauchter.)

25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: There is another point also ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,

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/~ Iin the rule. If as a result of the comments we were to r 2 change our mind, then we would have chosen the right 3 course. So I think there is some henefit in the comment,and 4 this is one of the things that makes me lean towards going 5 with a fi'x ed date.

6 I gather then we still have three votes to proceed 7 wit h --

8 NR. CHILKs I gather you have five.

9 Are you both concurring?

i 10 COHNISSIONER BRADFORD: I guess you could count me l 11 as a no on the first ground but I will concur in the 12 February 1 date.

13 HR. BICKWIT4 You concur in the amendment to the

( 14 staff proposal?

15 COMMISSIONER BRADFORDs Amendment is a generous 16 term for it, yes. There was considerable venching down of 17 the staff proposal.

18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: How do you vote?

19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa I will go along with 20 tha t. I would like some indication of the fact that I would 21 have preferred to do it differently.

22 HR. CHILKs That completes the list.

23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Are there any other items 24 that should come up at this time?

25 (No response.)

ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY.INC,

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1 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO: Thank you. We stand

'l 2 adjourned.

3 (Thereupon, at 4:00 p.m., the meeting was

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4 adjourned.)

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, NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the COMMISSION MEETINGt

{'~ PUBLIC MEETING - AFFIRMATION SESSION 81-32 in the matter of:

• Date of Proceeding: August 27, 1981 Docket Number:

Place of Proceeding: Washington, D. C.

were held as herein appears, and that th'is is the original transcript thereof for the file of the Commission., ,

Judy F. Richard Official Reporter (Typed)

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g Attached are the PDR copies of a Commission meeting 6 transcript /s/ and related meeting document /s/. They b

, are being forwarded for entry on the Daily Accession P List and placement in the Public Document Room. No P other distribution is requested or required. Existing $

DCS identification numbers are listed on the individual b documents wherever possible. g

1. Transcript of: Affirmation Session 81-32, August 27, 1981. (1 copy)

a. SECY-81-20E - Rulemaking Issue, dated Policy on Porceeiding with

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August 21, 1981, Pending CP and ML Applications.

(1 copy)

b. SECY-81-473, Rulemaking Issue, dated Aug.3.81, Issuance of Federal Register Notice of Proposed Rulemaking to Implement the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, et cetera. ip (1 copy) 'P l,- 'akhbrown ffibe of the Secretary e o -e -

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