ML20136E092
| ML20136E092 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 06/06/1983 |
| From: | Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20136D878 | List: |
| References | |
| FOIA-84-415 NUDOCS 8511210421 | |
| Download: ML20136E092 (45) | |
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, INTERVIEW OF DUDLEY THOMPSON June 6, 1983 Tape One Side One
- Judge Hoyt l
Mr. Thompson let me introduce myself to you on this record that were making. I'm Helen F. Hoyt, Administrative Judge with the Licensing Board Panel and Mr. Sebastian Alcot is
, from the General Counsels Office, and we have, the third person will probably come into the room in a few minutes and this will be Ruthanne Miller our Law Clerk.
Mr. Alcot and I have been assigned by the Chairman Palladino oon May 6, 1983 to undertake and investigation into the allegations that are detailed in the November 16, 1982 memorandum to Chairman Palladino from Martin G. Malsch, Deputy General Counsel and that interview was titled, .
" Interview with Thomas Applegate". In accordance with our assignment the focus of our investigation will be whether or not the Director of OIA and that office made a good faith effort to carry out the responsibilities in an CIA investigation of Applegate. Those are in this folder here.
8511210421 851106 SERS4 415 PDR B
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The additional focus is that the responsibilities of the OIA
- in the investigation of Applegate's allegations the.t he made .
in, that wara investigated by Region III in the early months of 1980. To anticipate any questions you may have concerning an attorney we would like to assure you that you may have one if you wish.
I Mr. Aloot has shown you the memorandum of Mr. Malsch from the, to the rather chairman of the Commission dated November 1982. We have elected to use a small dictaphone cassette recorder in lieu of making copious notes. It is intended for our use only, and will remain in our files and will be used to transcribe the events of this interview. We ask that you not discuss this interview with anyone in this Commission or anyother office any place else. This request .,
is made of you to ensure that we, what we discuss today will not, if it could, influence anycther person we talk to about I the OIA investigation. - -
i Do you have any question of us Mr. Thompson? j i
Mr. Thompson No. Thats fine.
4 I Judge Hoyt
3 When we have completed the investigation we will report our findings and recommendations to the Chairman. We would also like to tell you that if you wish a copy of this interview one could be made available to you.
Do you want to start the questions Mr. Alcot?
Mr. Alcot Yes. Why don't I.
Mr. Alcot Mr. Thompson have you finished reading that?
Mr. Thompson Not yet.
Mr. Alcot O'kay, I want to give you some time to read.the...
Judge Hoyt Yes. Let me turn this off while you have that opportunity.
Judge Hoyt
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The recorder is now on and do you knowledge Mr. Thompson that you have had sufficient time to read those allegations and do you have any questions now? ,
Mr. Thompson Yes I have read them and I have no questions at this point.
Judge Hoyt And what we were referring to of the allegations contained in the memorandum of Martin Malsch dated November 16, 19827 Mr. Thompson Thats correct.
Judge Hoyt All right sir.
Mr. Aloot .
Mr. Thompson in o'r around November of 1981 did you have reason to meet with Arthur Schnebelen from the office of Investigation and Audit regarding interviews conducted by OIA in its investigation at Zimmer?
Mr. Thompson 4
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5 I have no specific recollection in that timeframe of the meeting with Art Schnebelen but I think its intirely possible, thats true, does that determine that question?
Mr. Alcot .
Your recall, do you have any recollection of any meeting with anybody from OIA regarding evaluations of OIA interviews?
Mr.' Thompson No, not that I can recall. November of 81 or November 82?
Mr. Alcot I believe it was November of 81, however, it could be November 827 Let me see if I can put some more flesh to this. We have been advised that in connection with OIA's investige. tion possible falsification of records at Zimmer plant was occurred in 1981 investigation that OIA had obtained or conducted interviews of Mr. Schwarers, Mr.
Gettings at the'Zimmer site. Those interviews were ultimately sent to Region III for use in its report.
And that report was issued I believe in November 24, 1981.
Prior to sc. ling these interviews to Region III do you recall Mr. Schnebelen or anyone else from OIA coming to you 4
6 with hand written drafts and asking you to read those interviews?
Mr. Thompson I don't know the specific recollection of that.
Judge Hoyt Did you see those interviews Mr. Thompson?
Mr. Thompson It doesn't ring a bell with me.
Mr. Alcot Did you in the course of your duties with the Commission, do you have cause to review the Region IIIs investigation, second investigation at Zimmer, I believe it was number 81137
)
Mr. Thompson Yes, I'm sure I did. This specific number docket...
Mr. Alcot Yes.
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7 You have no recollection at the time reading it thinking that you had been asked to review information that may be relevant? I don't want to seam like I'm beating a dead l horse, I'm trying to refresh your recollection about it.to
. approach from another way, would it be common for you to review material obtained by OIA to the determine whether I
that material had any relevance to an I&E investigation?
Mr. Thompson Yes, it would be, it wouldn't be uncommon. That's something I would expect would be quite possible.
- Mr. Alcot i Have you done that in the past?
Mr. Thompson !
1 Yes. , ;
l l
Mr. Aloot l Do you recall which investigations?
l 1*.r. Thompson Not, no not specifically. .
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8 Mr. Alcot In reviewing that material what was your process or procedure you went through in reviewing it?
Mr. Thompson A highly subjected one involving my assessment of the safety significance what might be involved with OIA materials, interviews, or what ever. During this time period there was considerable question being raised in both IE and IA regarding the scope of responsibility for the two offices.
With the IE position being rather strongly that whatever licensees or applicants were involved in was an IE responsibility. That OIAs charter for detection of fraud, waste and mismanagement would have them bare responsibility for anything that NRC staff, headquarters or regional, might be involved in. We knew that there was, that there would be conditions were either office might have some overlapping responsibility within those scopes, but is that OIA might very well have to talk to some licensee or applicant personnel to obtain information about alleged misconduct of some type within the NRC staff and that there might very well be several occasions were NRC investigator might need to talk to NRC personnel to determine some licensee or applicant misconduct. Now, I was at that time the process I
' engaged in in looking at things that were brought to us by
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9 i OIA as possibly involving a safety quest' ion or an IE concern would be to look at the interview or documentary evidence whatever it was that I brought to determine if in my subjective opinion it involved some sort of a safety l question-that the technical staff should be examining. And when I felt that that was the case then such material would be provided to the investigator for Headquarters or regional for followup.
l Mr. Alcot My impression then is that your review was for basically jurisdiction?
l Mr. Thompson l Basically, yes.
Mr. Aloot Did you have cause to review OIA informatio.n for the purpose
!' of determining whether it is relevant to an ongoing I&E investigation?
4 Mr. Thompson Yes, it would be, it would have been either an ongoing investigation or consideration the possibility that it wasn't an investigation.
F 10 Mr. Alcot I see.
Were these reviews normally reduced to writing?
Mr. Thompson No.
Mr. Alcot .
O'kay, so, would there be any record of your advice to OIA at the time?
Mr. Thompson No, I think not, none that I recall.
Mr. Alcot When you conducted these evaluations of OIA information, were they normally with a particular person in CIA? Or was it with the particular investigator ...of the information?
Mr. Thompson It was both I say most of the time when I, when some item like this would be called to my attention that Jim cummings would then reinter. But it wasn't unusual either for him to
11 delegate it to an investigator or for the investigator to Mr. Alcot Did you in doing these reviews, did you ever have dealings with Mr. Schnebelen?
Mr. Thompson oh, yes.
. Mr. Alcot O'kay. So Mr. Schnabelen if had more than one meeting with you involving...
Mr. Thompson Oh, yes, I met with Art Schnebelen, not infrequently, not on a daily bases but it wasn't unusual to meet with Art.
Mr. Alcot could you describe, you mentioned, or before that you would have reviewed the Regional inspection report that was issued regarding Zimmer?
Mr. Thompson
12 Yes, that was also a not uncommon practice. ~Although the regions were not oblige to provide draft reports for headquarter review. It wasn't uncommon for them to give us a draft report solicit our response to in part in putting it in final form.
Mr. Aloot Do you recall whether the region provided you a copy of thh November 1981 Zimmer report?
Mr. Thompson only in the vague term, I can't recall the specifics of it, but I, perhaps I should say, I suspect they did, but I don't have a specific recollection of it. During that time the ongoing zimmer investigation boiled for a long time and there were a number of exchanges between the regions and s
headquarters. For me to say that I specifically recall the November 81 report, I can't say that, but I,do know the.re was a fair amount of exchange of information from region to headquarters and back. '
Mr. Alcot If in conducting these reviews you determined the information was that OIA provided you was relevant to I&E mission what did you do?
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l Mr. Thompson Provided to region involved in, if it were a regional investigation or were proposed for regional investigation it would go to the regional director involve'd. I'm a little vague on that because some of the investigations that IE conducted were done at headquarters investigation in which case the headquarters investigator would be provided the information. But the vast majority of the cases were regional investigations and the information would have been provided to the regional director.
Mr. Aloot In the case that of you discovering relevant information would the referral to you with the regional investigator or headquarters investigator would that referral be memorialized in the transmital memo?
Mr. Thompson ,
i Not necessarily, though it might have been.
Mr. Alcot So the absence of any documentation record is not a sign it wasn't referred to?
[ Mr. Thompson
14 No significance at that, it shouldn't.
Mr. Aloot Did you have any dealings with the U.S. Attorneys office in Cincinnati regarding Zimmer?
Mr. Thompson Personally', no, but I was aware that there was some contact
- review.
Mr. Aloot By whom?
Mr. Thompson Keppler and his group. And I think Cummings had some contact with too. I don't recall having any word from the cincinnati office.
L Mr. Aloot Do you recall any contacts by anyone in headquarters I&E with the U.S. Attorney's office?
4 Mr. Thompson I don't recall any, again a little bit of a context in...during this timeframe and the conflicts situation that
. I 15 existed in this...Stello may have had contact with representatives of the U.S. Attorneys office since then but I am not at all sure that is the case. Possibly.
Mr. Alcot ,
I should get on the record you are no longer with the NRC?
Mr. Thompson Thats correct.
Mr. Alcot When did you leave your position?
Mr. Thompson I retired in January of 1982.
Mr. Alcot And what was your position when you retired?
Mr. Thompson I was Director of Investigation and Enforcement Staff, it was the other way around, Enforcement and Investigation Staff.
Mr. Alcot
o 16 Part of the turf bell was which one was?
Mr. Thompson Which one was IE and which is EI.
i Mr. Aloot I have no more questions right now, if you have any? .' l Judge Hoyt ,
No, I was going on something else, so go ahead.
l Mr. Alcot With respect to Mr. Thompson?
Judge Hoyt No. Go ahead.
Mr. Alcot O'kay. Do you recall, do you have'any present recollection of the contacts between your office and CIA in January of 1981 when CIA first started its investigation of Region IIIs Zimmer investigation?
Mr. Thompson
17 Nothing specific that I can tie to that time. 'However, I do recall that very early in the followup to the allegations that were bought to IEs attention, OIA expressed a fairly keen interest in that case. And there were a number of discussions between Jim Cummings and myself and along Cummings Stallo, regarding IAs involvement in the case and potential concern by the U.S. Attorneys office at that stage I don't think that the allegations had come to us through an outside group yet. But there was a fair amount of i discussion with, in this general timeframe. And some of it relatively acrimonious regarding whos turf this was and why are you stepping on my toes from both sides.
Mr. Alcot ,
What was CIAs role to be with respect to Region IIIs second investigation at Zimmer?
r Mr.. Thompson The second investigation?
Mr . Alcot Yes, that would be the one that, well the one that flowed from the GAP petition allegations? Was CIA to monitor Region IIIs?
18 Mr. Thompson
.Thats why I'm frowning and trying to scratch my memory. I don't recall the specifics of CIAs involved at that stage-but I recall some discussions that OIA had some interests that they wanted to pursue in term of potential criminology that interviews that they would be interested in conducting s
to follow that concern might impede the progress of the safety investigation that Region III was going on and the liaison between IA and IE Region III grow a little strained
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was aimed at avoiding duplication of interviews were if possible. And still allowing IA freedom to do what they
] really thought they had to in their criminology concerned.
But the specifics of it they are very vague in my recollection.
i Mr. Alcot Would it be possible for CIA to have assumed a monitoring role with respect to the Region III investigation? ,
Mr. Thompson Yes, it would have been intirely possible and I suspect it may have been, if not, explicitly, then at least implicitly i
j included in this agreement on who would do what.
f Mr. Alcot
. i 19 Do you... agreement?
Mr. Thompson As I was just discussing, IA interest in criminality, IEs l
l interest in the safety questions and the possibility that L
there might be overlap on interviews.
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! Mr. Aloot Let me.see if I-understand'this? .
Are you saying that CIA was to monitor the Region III j investigation or only to monitor the criminal aspects of that investigation?
Mr. Thompson Well, I think to the extent there was agreement on turfs.
The CIA interest of jurisdiction was clearly a criminality L
question. And IEs interest was a safety question. And IE both headquarters and the Region were concerned that l
l whatever CIA interest might be in criminality that it not ;
impeded the safety review, the safety investigation that IE l was conducting. For that reason there was some degree of conflict regarding the ability of IA to get the information i
j they wanted. And because the same parties were involved at the site they needed to know what we found out in our I
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- k 20 interviews and as a result would be monitoring the status and progress of the IE investigation for purposes of extracting information that might be pertinent to their concerns. So in that since implicitly they were monitoring, but I don't believe that there was ever any sort of agreement that they would look over the shoulders of the Region IIIs investigators to determine adequacy as that investigation were proceded.
Mr. Alcot To the best of your recollection did OIA on an ongoing basis look at IE interview reports, documents?
Mr. Thompson I'm not really in a position to provide very good testimony on that. That I think you would have to get out of Region III people. Its my impression that they did review interview results in real time as they were occurring but that would be second hand information on that.
Mr. Alcot
- What about vice versa did Region III people review OIA l
interviews?
Mr. Thompson
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21 Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Aloot so, to the best of your recollection any review of OIA documentation would be through your office rather than directly... ,
Mr. Thompson Through my office after the fact.
Mr. Alcot And again you would have no present recollection of actually conducting such review?
Mr. Thompson Not specifically, no, I certainly don't dismiss the possibility but I have not specific recollection at all.
t Judge Royt Mr. Thompson, did you receive from OIA any interviews that were subsequently incorporated in your report that dealt with health and safety concerns?
i Mr. Thompson I can't recall any specific interviews
22 Judge Hoyt Let me turn that corner around then and say did you have any interviews reports that had criminal feature in it that should go to CIA, did you transmit any such data to OIA?
i Mr. Thompson I can't recall specifically doing that, but the nature of the Zimmer investigation, nature of the allegations and the results of the IE investigation leads me to think I probably, did but I don't have specific recollection of doing that.
Judge Hoyt You transmitted something, that you can't recall now?
Mr. Thompson
! I can't recall when or the nature of what might have that I transmitted.
Judge Hoyt would there be letters of transmittals in your files?
Mr. Thompson Yes, there would.
Judge Hoyt
23 That was a practice of your office?
Mr. Thompson
.,i Yes, when we provided information to IA for consideration of !
l possible criminality we 'did memorialize those transmi:tals. l So if we did transmit those, it should be in the reccrd.
9 Judge Hoyt And, I guess its a little hard to ask you this and expect an answer but do you recall if there was any conversation i between you OIA Mr. Cusumings, Mr. Schnebelen, or anyone else ;
i in that office concerning the reports that were coming to !
them? l l !
Mr. Thompson .
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Again I don't have specific recollection but in my mind its l l intirely reasonable that such discussions took place. Just i
by the nature of the Zimmer investigations and the continuing allegations and all of that pot boiling leads me to believe that I probably did but I don't have any specific recollection of doing it. !
l i
Mr. Aloot l
, Did you have an ongoing exchange with OIA during this Zimmer investigation? l l
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l 24 Mr. Thompson Yes. I recall that there were fairly frequent discussions with between Jim Cummings and I and with Cummings, Stello, and me and probably some others Dick DeYoung...
Mr. Alcot Lets put a timeframe on this. Was this, do you have recall having this course of discussions with Mr. Cummings prior to the release of their report in August of 19817 Mr. Thompson I can't put a timeframe on it, I suspect probably both before and after. Keppler of course will have some recollection of those discussions to that he was in on either by phone or in person.
Mr. Aloot Were you aware that OIA in the first week of August 1981 had read Region III their draft report before it was issued in final form?
Mr. Thompson I don't have specific recollection of that, that sounds to me not unreasonable but I don't specifically...
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. I Mr. Alcot Unreasonable or unlikely? :
Mr. Thompson I think its entirely possible that did so, I don't have ,
specific recollection of having been informed of that they ,
l had. The exchange between IA and Region III between IA and IE headquarters and with all three parti 4s involved was very J
active and fairly frequent through out this period and the l nature of the exchanges of'information is such that it all seemed quite reasonable in the context but I don't have specific recollection.
Judge Hoyt ,
Let me say one thing while you break to...What was your l '
relationship with the office the regional office Mr.
Thompson? Mr. Keppler and you, did you exchange information l directly or did you always have to go through someather?
l l !
l Mr. Thompson
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- No. We exchanged directly, my relationship with all the regions including III was very cordial to the regional l directors and I didn't have any problem with their senior staff members. Most of my contacts with the regions were through regional directors, that is my personal contacts,
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and during this intire period there frequent exchanges if not daily certainly a couple times a week or more frequently.
Mr. Aloot Mr. Thompson after the CIA was report on Region III was i,ssued, I believe it was August 7, 1981, obviously a lot of discussions among the major parties regarding the .
conclusions that are reported,'id d you participate in those discussions?
_Mr. Thompson
- Yes, I did.
Mr. Alcot s At IE headquarters who was involved in analysis of OIAs report? .
Mr. Thompson Vic Stello was very active in it, I don't recall whether Harry Thornberg was active in it or not I kind of think maybe he was.
Mr. Aloot Was Mr. Harpster active?
4 27 Tape one Side Two Mr. Thompson Ye'ah Terry was continuing of members of headquarters staff that might have been involved in review of the CIA report, I suspect Ed Jordan, within my organization I suspect Bill Ward, I don't recall specific names, but I might beable to
, react if possible.
Mr. Aloot Were all menos to the Commission regarding the I&E response to 01As report were they prepared for Bill Dircks signature?
Mr. Thompson All of them, I think anything that went to the Commission was, I recall Vic Stallo being pretty disturbed the next day and I think anything that went to the Commission on this subject and within that timeframe to give direction or preparing signature.
Mr. Aloot Do you have any present recollection as to why two memos were sent to the commission regarding CIA report from Mr.
Dircks on the same day?
, y 28 Mr.. Thompson That does not...
Mr. Aloot.
Ring a bell?
Mr. Thompson- .
l It doesn't help, I don't recall, I can't give you why two on I the same day. .
f Judge Hoyt I havn't got...
Mr. Alcot Was there any other office in of the staff that was involved in reviewing CIAs recommendations other than IEE7 Mr. Thompson I don't recall. I might be able to' refresh my memory in
} whats on the record, I don't recall that.
Mr. Aloot Do you have any present judgement as the adequacy of the OIA report?
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29 Mr. Thompson No, not particularly, I'm a little suspicious of my point aqr views at because the organizational antagonism that was evident at the time was pretty infectious. And there was considerable resentment IE resorted some of the positions taken by IE, whether or not that resentment was justified I can now say I question never the less I felts like other staff members did so I really question my ability to, I suspect probably was adequate, and I wouldn't it it certainly wouldn't it say outstanding. I know that the venomous with which some of the views were expressed at the time was to hired and I felt at the time though I was... disturbed by many aspects of it.
Mr. Aloot To the best of your knowledge the NRC investigation at simmer is ongoing?
Mr. Thompson of course I've been away now for 18 months but I'd be surprised if it weren't.
Mr. Alcot
. . g 30 While you were the Director of I&E was there any time period between let say mid 1980 until the date you left were there was not an active investigation at the Zimmer site? ,
Mr. Thompson ,
1 I think no. Possibly the last few weeks when it was a question of documenting the results second version the activities that the site may have been slighter density but for all practical purpose the entire period there was an ongoing active investigation. !
i j Mr. Aloot
[
We have found those documents that for Mr. Dircks that you were sitting ask you to. review them to see if it will refresh your recollection?
Judge'Hoyt Lets just give you the data. ,
Mr. Thompson Ch yes I recall here, this does refresh my memory. As is j the case with documents prepared for signature by a higher
, authority, the signing date is frequently not the date in I
which the work is initiated it takes a few days to get done.
! The smaller of these two packages is the first that went i
e
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31 forward and its also the more emotional of the two. And it does refer that to the fact that we will be providing comments by separate memorandum. And that first one was prepared quite rapidly and sent to Dircks very promptly and-work on the second was initiated in the same time but was anticipated to follow in a matter of a few days. The fact that they have the same date signature doesn't indicate anything in particular other than one which is a precursor of the other that was anticipated for signature at a later date.
Mr. Alcot So your recollection is that they may have been signed on the same date but not necessarily prepared on the same data?
Mr. Thompson Yes, I think thats the case.
Mr. Alcot At the time that I&E reviewed OIAs findings was there any concern on I&E part that perhaps CIAs findings were
! systematic of a broader breakdown in the generic IEE l investigative procedures?
Mr. Thompson i
1 I
f 32' i
Not that I recall, no I don't think there was that concern at the time, though again, in retrospect now I think it may '
have been the case that the anxiety generated by the a
hostilities between the two organizations at the time may have so colored the IE staffs response that it tended to mask any such concern, we had some our own concerns but not generated by IAs.
,Mr. Aloot Self generated.
Mr. Thompson Yes, self generated concerned about the adequacy of the ongoing investigation program.
l Mr. Alcot l
Zimmer or general?
L Mr. Thompson No, generic.
l Mr. Aloot Were those concerns ever expressed to the Commission?
Mr. Thompson
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i 33 I do not know, I don't recall having been party to any '
assumptions questions. And I should clarify for your record that those were not debilitating concerns, they were really find tuning with regard to in nature jyp qualifications of staffing for the investigating staff. We had made decisions a few years earlier to seek more professional investigators rather than inspector types and there was some concern at this stage that we may have gone overboard and lost some technical skills in the investigative portion of the staff that would have been advantageous to have. With the result that many of our investigation tended to be chicken little types of results without an adequate assessment of the safety significance of the findings. By chicken little I mean that the significance of a finding tended to be artificially elevated because of the none technical nature of the investigator and he could find that the bathroom doors were painted pink and the SAR said they were suppose to be painted yellow, and this was terrible. Had he had a ,
little more I would exaggerated of course, if he had a
. little more technical capability he could of dismissed the I concern. We felt at'this general stage in time that there <
may have been to much of that kind of a gee wiz aspect to our investigations, and we were concerned about reestablishing some technical capabilities without going
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e 34 overboard in the other direction which is why we had gone to more professional investigators to begin with.
Mr. Aloot Were you familiar with a Mr. McCartin out at Region III?
Mr. Thompson Yes.
Mr. Aloot In what capacity were you familiar?
Mr. Thompson He was an investigator in Region III and I was aware that some allegative, perhaps it was Zimmer I forget specific case, they were allegations of his undo involvement with the licensee or forman holder what ever case it was leading to improperly minimizing the significance of findings that, he had derived in the investigation and I seem to recall there may have been some allegations of inadequacy in conduct of the investigation itself, but what I...
i
- Mr. Aloot You don't recall that being Zimmer?
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35 Mr. Thompson Not specifically, no I don't.
Mr. Alcot Do you know whether Mr.McCartin was assigned to the Zimmer investigation at one point?
Mr. Thompson I suspect so but I don't recall specifically.
4 Mr. Alcot Did Mr.'McCartin ever raise to you directly or indirectly u
information regarding possible criminal violations at Zimmer specifically record falsification?
Mr. Thompson I don't recall directly and I'm trying to recall if I know anything indirectly. I don't, I can't go what I have right now. In a matter fact I have to amend my earl'ier comments about the. allegations on the adequacy ofthis performance, that was another individual on, it was not Er;
-McCartin I correct my commentary it was another Region III investigator. ,
L Mr. Alcot
1 3-36 I'm not quite sure do you recall whether you~were still director when Mr. McCartin left were you employed?
Mr. Thompson Yes I was. I either at the time he left or he announced his .
departure before I left, I don't recall specifically, but I was aware that he was leaving NRC or had left.
Mr. Alcot Is it common for the Director of IEE to know the basically the comings and goings of field investigators or is there some reason why Mr. McCartins stick in my mind.
Mr. Thompson No, the investigating staff is smaller than and ... why that that I'm pretty well aware of frictional changes...
Mr. Alcot I see. 1 Mr. Thompson Not for any reason other than information of knowing what staffing level were and I knew most of the investigators at least very well by reputation if not on a personal basis.
37 Mr. Alcot Did you as in your capacity as Director of I&E did you ever involve yourself in the day to day conduct of investigations?
Mr. Thompson very little, from time to time I would be involved with maybe an interview of headquarters type investigations or use of investigating staff, but very rarely was I personally involved in.
Mr. Alcot were you personally involved in any aspect of the Zimmer investigation?
Mr. Thompson No.
Mr. Aloot Judge Hoyt, I have no other questions.
Judge Hoyt I just have a just a sort of general brief one Mr. Thompson, were you conscious at any time during this period in 81, 82 that is before you left in 82 that or was there any
O l 1
38 suspicion raised in your mind about the transmittal of documents between your office and the IEE office I should say and the OIA?
l Mr. Thompson Could you clarify your question a little bit? 1 Judge Hoyt Well, anything that you sent to OIA that had some i
possibility of going further along the chain of handling by this agency by someone else such as the Department of Justice were you ever conscious of any of this'not getting to the file destination that it should of gone to, lets say criminal allegation?
Mr. Thompson No. If anything I would, if there had been any concern I would suspect it would of been in the other direction that
. the mesh that OIA viewed in its screening process for potential criminality was much to course and let more
~through than was appropriate. We were very careful during this intire period and before. To take a very liberal interpretation of what constituted potential criminality for a number of reasons not the least of which was to avoid unnecessarily antagonizing our colleague in OIA we saw that
e 39 clearly as their responsibility for determination of potential criminality and referals to justice of those cases 1
were in existence, so within IE we very careful to apply the rule very liberally and said an awful lot to OIA that we didn't believe in our hard of hearts constituted potential criminality but we could see somebody might interpreted it that way and in, I believe I can fairly say in our collective opinion, we felt that OIA.was much more inclined to go DOJ than we really considered it appropriate. And let DOJ make the decision, well there is no criminality involved here go do your thing. There was some discussion among IE staff members at the time. Specifically Vic Stello that OIA no choice once we made a referal to OIA they really had no choice but to make the referal direct to Justice and not exercise discrimination.
Judge Hoyt Did you ever find having and of these referals without transmitted to DOJ?
Mr. Thompson Well, now wait a minute I don't want to say no. I can't recall specific cases now of information we have provided to OIA not being transmitted by them to DOJ but I have a i recollection that there were occasions were DOJ did apply a
40 screen and say were not gone to make that referal because we have determine for NRC that we don't as an agency consider that to be potential criminality. But they were pretty rare, they were pretty rare, almost every case, if we had l made a referal to OIA it went of to DOJ formally or informally and a determination was made at DOJ. And I can't recall specific case of being told no, we arn't going to send it over.
Mr. Alcot How many years have you be_en the Director or Deputy Director of I&E7 Mr. Thompson In those, of course I never was Director of I&E, I was Director of EI staff.
Mr. Alcot Senior level manager at?
Mr. Thompson Well I was Deputy Director of Region II from June of 77 to
- February of 79, I came back from Region II to Headquarters in February in 79 and held various senior staff position in IE Headquarters from then until I retired in early 82.
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Mr. Alcot During that tenure with the NRC were any criminal referals to the Department of Justice acted upon to.your knowledge?
Mr. Thompson Positively by Justice?
Mr. Alcot Yes.
Mr. Thompson I don't believe there were any brought to traial and I'm trying to recall now if there were, I seem to recall, but I can't put names to them, instances in which Justice was their finger at a corporate group and said what your doing is a no no if you do it again we'll come after you.
Mr. Alcot I see, i
t Mr. Thompson But we'll let you off this time. As I recall the instance in which those occurred they were materials licensees who were rather blatantly violating the terms of their license and Justice chose not to as a matter of prosegatorial
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discretions chose not to take it to trial but issued a strong letter of remonstration to the licensee and apparently achieved what they wanted to achieve.
Mr. Aloot To your knowledge, however, you can recall no inditements or Grand Jury penalties?
Mr. Thompson I believe, yes I believe there was Grand Juries that were Mr. Alcot As a result of NRC referals?
Mr. Thompson Yes, and I think you can recall some of them, associated
'with TMI there was a Grand Jury .
Mr. Aloot Excluding TMI.
Mr. Thompson Thats one that springs to mind. I can't pull any others out of my memory bank at the moment. But I think there other
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Grand Juries impaneled but were there any of them and I don't believe any of them came...
Judge Hoyt
, Just one more flash Mr. Thompson what was your working relationship with Jim Cummings?
Mr. Thompson I think reasonably cordial, I think there was fair degree of mutual respect. Jim had no great affection for IE as an i organization and there was a fair amount of hostility at the Directoral outlook, which was in general kept under controlled by both parties, but on a personal basis Cummings and I.got along reasonably we,ll, we holler at one another once in while but for the most part I think it was a cordial relationship and I thi/2k reasonably effective.
Mr. Aloot I have no more questions?
Judge Hoyt I have no more questions either Mr. Thompson, anything you want to add or ask us?
Mr. Thompson
44 I can't.think of thing to add at this stage, it would be very interesting.
Mr. Alcot I did not get a recall whether you wanted a copy of the transcript or not?
Mr. Thompson I have no particular concern of the transcript I don't feel particularly vulnerable or particularly concerned about that, I'm sure that I'm faithly represented of thats fine, I'd be interested in the results of your finding.
Judge Hoyt The report will go to the Chairman of the Commission...
Mr. Thompson Of cource thats not assurance that this will be a public report.
Mr. Alcot ;
Thats right.
l Mr. Thompson I recognize, thats a little difficult to commit to.
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Judge Hoyt Thats exactly right. That of course will have to be released by the new Chairman it will not be our purogative to do so. We appreciate very much your coming in today and your taking the time to givs us this interview and we thank you very much. ,
Mr. Thompson Happy to help any way I can.
Judge Hoyt Thank you sir.
END OF TAPE
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