ML20129B561
| ML20129B561 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Davis Besse  |
| Issue date: | 06/19/1985 |
| From: | Feasel S, Lehman T TOLEDO EDISON CO. |
| To: | |
| References | |
| NUDOCS 8507290191 | |
| Download: ML20129B561 (55) | |
Text
1 1
BEFORE THE FACT FINDING TASK FORCE 2
OF THE NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
4 Re:
5 Davis-Besse event 6
or June 9,
19S5 7
8 INTERVIEW OF TED LEHMAN AND STEVE FEASEL 9
10 Interview of Tod Lenman and Steve Fessel 11 by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission Fact Finding 1
12 Tsax Force taken before me, Anne I.
- McBrayer, 13 Ragistered Professional Reporter and Notary Public 14 in and for the S ta te of Ohio, at Conterance Room 15 209, Davis-Besse Nuclear Plant, Oak Harbor, Ohio, on 16 Wednesday, June 19, 1985, commencing at 1:05 o'clocx 17 p.m.
18 19 20 21 22 23 8507290191 8506ADOCK 05000 46 PDR PDR (ny 24 T
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
2 1
APPEARANCES:
2 3
Shaw, Pittman, Potts & Trowbridge 4
1800 M Street, N.W.
S Washington, D.C.
20036 6
By Mr. David R.
A.
- Lewis, 7
8 On behalf of the Commission.
9 10 11 MEMBERS OF THE TEAM:
12 O
13 J.
T.
Baard 14 Ernie Rossi 15 Larry Bell i
16 Wayne Lanning a
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
(]')
24 RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
3 1
Wednasday Afternoon Session 2
June 19, 1935 3
1:05 o' clock p.m.
4 5
MR. ROSSI:
Why don't we begin then.
6 We're going to be ta1xing with Tad Lehman, the shift
)
7 supervisor that was on duty during tne avont on June 8
9th, and S te ve Faasel, assistant snitt suporvisor 9
wns was on duty tha night of the ovent.
And what 10 we'd liAs to talk to you about now is wo want to get 11 a better understanding of how the emergency 12 procedures or any other procedures were used during m
^
13 tne event when things were progressing rather 14 rapidly.
15 The kind of thing we want to know is, you 16 Know, vnether somebody was resding them up to a 17 point and than that stopped while-people went I
la outside of the control room to taxo actions or wha t.
19 And maybe you can just, each of you, tall us wnat 20 you observad or what you personally did.
And 1 21 don't know which order you want to start.
22 MR. FEASEL:
Can I go first because I 1
23 startud out in tus procedure.
()
24 MR. ROSSI:
Okay.
He may have somo RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-3477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
4 1
questions, this is he boing Larry Ball.
(-)s 2
MR. BELL:
This is document omargancy 3
procedure EP 1202.01, and perhaps it would be easier 4
for you to show us whoro you wara in tne proceduro.
5 And then we'll make references so tnat the 6
stenographer gets no te s as to which section was 7
being usad, if that's okay with you.
8 MR.
PEASEL:
All'right.
That's fine.
9 Initially in the evant, we started out with the 10 feodwater runback.
And at that point, we did not I
11 have a procedure out.
It was a very short period of 12 time, and we hadn't had a enance to get into any r
13 alarm procedures.
14 Shortly tuercafter, tha rasctor tripped.
15 The reactor operstors carried out tneir immediato 16 actions.
And I immadiately grabbod EP 1202.01, tno 17 emergancy procedure.
I went into section 3,
wnich 18 is the immediate actions saction.
Want tnrough veritied tne msnual reactor.
It had baan 19 the 20 manually tripped.
And that all rods were on the 21 bottom, 2nd we had indication tnat power had 22 decreased.
23 Tney manually trippad the turbine using
(])
24 tha manual trip buttod on the Ell C control panel.
RUNPOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
M 5
1 And they isolated letdown using MU28, which is the 2
motor' operated letdown isolation valva.
We tnen j
3 immediately went into tne supplementary actions.
4 MR. BELL:
Which is section 4 of EP 1202.
)
5 MR. FEASEL:
1202.01.
~
j 6
MR. BEARD:
Steva, I don't want to 7.
interrupt you any more than necessary, but just so I 4"
5 I
i 8
understand, is there only one section of 9
supplemontary actions or is this.a particula r action?
I l
10 MR. FEASEL:'
There.is only one set ot l
11 supplementary actions.
It. consists of about 11 or 12 12 steps.
The supplementary actions basica11ytare 13 just trying to establish that, I believe, they're 14 just trying to establish that you have electrical
.t 15 power, air, tne ins trume n ta tion and the control' 16 systems tnat you need for the remainder ot the-1 17 procedure.
1 18 And so basically what we did was I would 19 raad off tne heading step, verify electrical power, 1
20 and the RO that was on the particular side of the 21 control room would respond back to me, that, yes, we 22_
do have A and B bus powered.
23 MR. BELL:-
One interruption, please.
When j
(}
24 you go to the simulstor, do you go as'a shift?
i RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-3477
-COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION i
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MR. LEHMAN:
Yes.
2 MR.
FEASEL:
Yes.
3 MR. BELL:
So your opera tors have used 4
this procedure before with you at the simulator?
5 MR. FEASEL:
Not with me in particular.
6 I'm rather new to the shirt.
I came on the shitt
)
7 bacx in Decembor, I believe, of last year.
A'n d they J
8 had already made their trip to tha simulator.
But 9
tney had an SRO similar to me that, you know, all 10 the shifts dual with the procedure in the same way.
1
- 11 Tha t's the way we've been trained to' deal with ~it.
- 12
~MR.
BELL:
Please' continua.
I s/
13 MR.- FEASEL:
So wa went through the I
14 su'pplementary actions.
They verified electrical i
15 power.
Next-step is to verify instrument air.
16 MR. ROSSI:
Rather, you know, I 'd o n ' t - t e e l -
i 17 you-need to' tell us-eacn thing, if you c-s n just tell 1
18 us, you know, that you.went through a certsin set of-19 things, tha t's fine, and'tnen go on~to whatever 20 happened next in the event ~where you did something 21 different.
22 MR. FEASEL:
Okay.
We got_as_far as the 1
23 well,.they started a second maxe-up pump.
We got-as 4
,()
24 f ar as the step referring to feedwater: response, RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-6477 COMPUTERIZED-TRANSCRIPTION.
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L.--
9.,
7 1
condensato feedwater responsa.
And tnat is when NA 7
t:at the No. 2 main teed pump spaed was 2
they noticed t
3 decreasing.
A"a d then is when we looked up and saw 4
that th2 MSIVs were both shut.
At that point, we 5
attemptad to manually initiate SFRCS on low water 6
level.
7 MR.
ROS,SI:
Is that a stop in the 8
procedure?
9 MR.
FEASEL:
Well, the nJXt step 3fter 10 teedwa ter response so to verify a proper -- or 11 verify -- well, there's another additional step.
12 There's an SFAS, varity that you have not had an 13 SFAS, and they had done that.
And that is to verify 14 that you have not had an SFRCS trip, stcam toad 15 rupture control system trip.
16 We thought that we had had a partial 17 actuation of the steam teed rupture control system, but not all the equipment had responded.
And 18 and it's been our practice in tha past 19 normally if 20 thst if you get a partial actuation, that you should 21 try to get the full actustion, get on auxiliary 22 f ee dwa te r.
And that was the attempt that we were 23 making at tnat point.
The procedure doas not
()
24 spacifically addr2ss manually tripping SFRCS.
It RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUT8RIZED TRANSCRIPTION
8 1
I tnink the procedure assumes that it would probably
(_J 2
trip itself.
3 MR.
BEARD:
Steva.
4 MR.
FEASEL:
Yss.
1 5
MR.
BEARD:
What led you to believe that I
l 6
you had a partial actuation?
Was thera some l
i l
7 indication or some equipment changes state or what 1
8 got you to that. point?
9 MR.
FEASEL:
Some of it was knowladge tnat 10 I had nad from saeing tne MSIVs shut before in a 11 caso liKo tria where the MSIVs had seen ene trip, 12 but they have such a quick response time that the
,m1 k._J 13 other equipment did not see the trip.
In that 14 particular instant it was a incident that j
i l
15 occurred seteral years ago.
I can't evan site a i
j 16 date.
f 17 In that particular instance, they manually l
18 initiated SFRCS, and essentially that was the end of 19 the transient.
They went on tneir emergency 20 teedwater systems and were quickly in a hot standby 21 condition.
That was the attempt that we wara making 22 at that time.
23 No.then, atter we manually initiated SFRCS,
(~')
24 we did still did not sea a proper responsa.
/
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
~. -
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9 1-Tnat's when.we noted that SFRCS had been trippad on
~2 low steam pressure, one side for each cnannel, 3
rather than on the low-water level that we'd nad I
l, 4
originally intended.
I believe Ted want in and 5
reset the low steam pressure trips, and than
- - 'rea c tua ted. SPRCS on' low water level.
7 MR. ROSSI:
~ Now, could you tell me whether 8
.that's in a procedure.or is that a training step 9
tnat you relied on?
I mean, is there any.procadure
~
~
would tell you.to ~do tha t?
10 that l
11 MR. LEHMAN:
Not.really.
It was just a i
{
12-just a natural step.
We realized, you!know, that j
13 the wrong action was-taxen.
We corrected it.-
More 14 basic training than anything else.
It's not a 15 specific thing that would be addressed as s u c h'.
16
.MR.
BEARD:
Excuse me,-Steve.
-I'm trying F
=17 to tollow along with where you were, 'and I think you 13; said earlier that you wera into the section, and I 19' hope it's section-4.8 because tha t's - whe re I'm 20 looking, about the toodwater response.
L 4
21.
And what I would like to~ask you is 11 22 that's tne place you were when you noticed that you i
23 lost speed on No.12. main feed pump.and you noticed-j ()
24 that the'MSIVs vers shut, can you give me some rough.
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES '(614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED' TRANSCRIPTION-I l
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10 1
feel of how far down on what page you'd gotten when g,
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2 that was noticed or and specifically with ragard 3
to wnere you stood on low level limit, becausa the 4
steps go through a,
I guess, a couple or so pages, 5
and tney all start out with items dealing with are 6
you on low limit, at catcra.
So I'm just wondering 7
if you can give us some taal for wnare you were at 8
that time.
9 MR.
PEASEL:
I may have bean mistaken.
We 10 may have already bean past tha t sad into verify 11 proper SFRCS.
12 MR. LEHMAN:
We had attain 3d low level 13 limits on both staam generators.
14 MR.
FEASEL:
Tha t's right.
15 MR.
LEHMAN:
Prior to realizing MSIVs were 16 closed.
17 MR.
BEARD:
Let ma understand, when you 18 say you nad attained low loval limits, does that 19 mean that the control system has now shifted to tne 20 low level limit mode or the water in the generators 21 is at'the low level limit value?
22 MR. LEHMAN:
Both.
de observed they 23 trended down as to the low lovel limit, and we
,]
24 watched tne faodwatar valvas open and faod the C
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
11 1
generators to control at that point.
v) 2 MR.
BEARD:
Okay.
So are you saying your 3
best memory right now is you got through this 4
section on teedwater response when you noticed 5
something astray?
6 MR.
FEASEL:
Yes.
Becausa they had 7
already shut the condensate pumps ott.
And I 8
ramomber specifically verifying SPAS had not tripped.
9 And must have been right at the point where we got 10 to the SPRCS of the step 4.10 on SPRCS that Brian 11 said he was losing speed on the No. 2 main faed pump.
12 MR. BELL:
Is it about tnis time that Mr.
/
13 Lehman has tha aquipment operators go into the 14 suxiliary fead pumps or have you realized that 1
15 hadn't trippad ya t?
16 MR.
FEASEL:
No.
17 MR. BELL:
So I'm premature.
18 MR. FEASEL:
Yeah, it was in section 4.10 19 where we aro.
About in that time trame is whan 20 Brian noted that tha taed pump spood was dacreasing.
21 The normal soquenco post trip, it normally takos 22 about two or threa minutes to get through all the 23 supplementary actions it tnero's nothing improper.
()
24 So it's a pretty quick ovolution the first timo RUNPOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION I
12 1
through.
2 MR. ROSSI:
Now, were you able to got 3
througn all of those supplementary actions or did 4
you get to a point where you just couldn't go any 5
turther because 6
MR.
FEASEL:
Wo got to the SFRCS section, 7
and tha t's wnan ne attempted to manually initiate 8
SFRCS and get a proper SPRCS actuation.
Tna t's per 9
step 4.10.2.
10 MR. ROSSI:
Oxay.
And then what 11 MR.
BELL:
Excuse mo, Dr. Rossi.
The what is the definition of " verity" 12 definition l
13 that's usad at this station?
14 MR. FEASEL:
Vorify.
15 MR. BELL:
Is that a visual vorification 16 or doas it mean that if tne sutomatic action hasn't T
17 taxon placo, are you supposad to manually actuato 13 the components?
19 MR.
PEASEL:
Yes.
We would it you 20 don't nave what you'ra supposed to have, you attempt 21 to get it.
22 MR. BELL:
Okay.
Thanx you very much.
23 MR. PEASEL:
We Know at that point that de
(}
24 did not have a propor SPRCS actuation, and we were RUNPOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-9477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION t
13 1
a ttemp ting to get one.
As I said, Ted rasat tne low
,-D 2
prassure trips, and then reactuated SFRCS on low 3
water lavol.
And at tnat point we still did not 4
have a proper SFRCS actuation.
5 Wa had tne feedwater stop valves 6
auxiliary toedwater stop valvas wore still shut.
all four steam valves were opan.
I balieva 7
The 8
the crosatie valves, the ones tnat cetermine which 9
auxiliary feed pump feads which stoam generator, 10 were still in tne process of cycling.
11 The next step in this procedure is or verify adequate 12 determina the status 13 subcooling margin.
We did that.
The next step is 14 overneating, verify adequate primary to secondary l
15 heat transfer exists.
At this point wa didn' t have 16 that.
The proceduro tells us to go to section 6.
17 Tha t's what we did.
18 MR. BEARD:
You did not have what?
13 MR.
FEASEL:
We did not hava adoquate 20 primary to secondary heat transter.
21 MR. BEARD:
So into what action on 22 overheating.
23 MR. PEASEL:
We were into overheating.
~T 24 MR. ROSSI:
Okay.
So that's what you did.
(V RUNPOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 i
COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
14 1
You got to that point in section 4, and then you 2
went to section 6.07 3
MR.
FEASEL:
Right.
4 MR. ROSSI:
Okay.
And section 6.0, the 1
5 title of tnat is?
6 MR.
FEASEL:
Lack of heat transter.
7 MR. ROSFI:
OKay.
8 MR.
BEARD:
Now, when you say you did this, 1
I assume you had tne book 9
are you talking about 10 lixa we hava here out in front ot you and you 11 actually had turned to this section?
12 MR.
FEASEL:
Yes.
O 13 MR. ROSSI:
Now, now did you use that ono 14 wh3n you got there?
Did you 15 MR. FEASEL:
The first step in that 16 procedure is determint main auxiliary feedwater 17 availability.
And at that time I bolisve is when 18 Tod directed people to start taking actions to gut 19 auxiliary foodwater back ind to make start-up faod
[
20 pump availablo.
21 MR. ROSSI:
Okay.
And now, are enero 22 procodural stops that tell you whit to do ensro or 23 is this antirely training and undoratanding of the l ()
24 plan?
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERlZED T R A t4 S C R I P T I O tt
4 15 1
MR. FEASEL:
It's training and 2
understanding.
3 MR. ROSSI:
No procedures to tell you to 4
do that, training and understanding to go --
5 Md.
FEASEL:
There is a procaduro.
In our 6
proceduro enore is an action sido and a detsil side 7
for all the steps in the tirst oeven sections.
Tho 8
datail side gives a little information on, in this a
9 particular case, on how long you can a t tempt to got l
l 10 main and auxiliary faadwater -- or auxiliary t
11 feedwater bacx before you have to go furtner into 12 tno procedure.
13 Tne guidance nero is that as long as you 14 nav3 one at least one steam generator with 15 pressure greater than 960 pounds or water lovel 16 or I snould say and a water level greater than 8 i
17 inchas, that this is whure you snould place your 18 eftorts.
19 MR. BELL:
Did you use this, to your i
20 m e.n o r y, did you use this sido of tno proceduro or 21 you just remember that it says this trom training 22 or --
23 MR. FEASEL:
In my caso, I had remembered J
(])
24 that stop trom triining.
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-3477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
,n.
- ~,
+
16 1
MR. BEARD:
Stova, going back, I tninx you 2
said a minute ago that about tna time you got into 3
section 6,
this was about the tima that Larry was 4
bringing up earlict, that this is whan tne shift 5
supervisor started dispatching people out in tha 6
plant tor, I ' l'1 call it, recovery actions?
7 MR.
FEASEL:
Yes.
4 8
MR. BEARD:
Oxay.
Was a part of that 3
someone dispatching you?
I 10 MR. FEASEL:
Yes.
11 MR. BEARD:
Could you talk about that aroa?
12 In particular, you know, wha t waro you told to do, 13 whara were you in the proceduro at the time you lott, 14 just the general situation surrounding your being if 15 instructed to go somepisce ano do something.
16 MR. LEHMAN:
Well, at this time he was
]
17 reading the procedura in t h,a bacxground.
You nnow, 18 I knew no was going through that bacause, you Know, 19 tne operators were responding.
Whan we tripped the 20 SPRCS and observad that it was not tunctioning D
21 properly, he saw that tha aux. f eedwa te r blocx I
22 valves were closad.
23 I had ooserved tnat the pumps had trippod.
()
24 Tha t's whan we startad dispatching poople.
I sant a RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-0477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION j
17 1
man out to unlocx and open AF 599 and Gaa.
Tne 2
primary sido reactor operator was tno ons tnat 3
dispatch 3d two EOs to tha aux. tead pump room in 4
sttampt to caset pumps.
At tha sama tima Steve was 5
in the sama Kay locxur.
tia said na was going to got 6
tna start-up toad pump.
It was just
.s l l actions, 7
you Know, avarybody just r -a s p o n d a d togatner.
d MR.
BEARD:
So wna t I nasr you saying is
)
it's more of a the individusi snowing whtt naada 10 to ba dons sad ha did it rsthor than boing told to 11 do it?
12 MR. L E ll M A N :
Um-nmm.
It was really s
13 outwaan tna tour ot us in tn-) control room, it was 14 a
Just like a coordinated rasponse to cha la situttion.
16 MR.
BEARD:
OKay.
Do you nava any i d,a s 17 sinc 3 you'r? speaking, Tod, about tnis, wnere in tne l '3 procedure Steve w3s at the point la timo when no 19 lett or I'll say 9xitad tua proceduras snd want 20 outsida tne control room?
21 MR.
LEdMAN:
Just about wher; h9 said na 22 was at.
11 3 win in auction 6, 1icx of heat transtar.
23 d n110 he w.s s out or the control room, tnure wisn't a
()
21 l ot at that point tnit wa could do.
Tno secondtry RUNFOLA
- 6. ASJOCIATES (014)445-d477 00MPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
l 18 e
1 side operator kept doing what no could with the aux.
2 faed pumps, but, you Know, enere just wasn't 3
anything there for him.
At this time I went to tha 4
emergancy plan or the 5
Ma. ROSSI:
Emergency.
6 MR. LEHMAN:
dxcuso me, the o.aergency 7
procedure.
And instead of trying to catch up to 8
where nu lagt off in thore, I pulled out the flow 9
charts that are in the bacs of each section and used 10 those as a quicx raview for myselt.
It was assier 11 for mo at tnat time to une tho30.
And I traced bacK 12 through tha procedure to varity that we had gons to 13 tha right place.
I tirst want to the one that's in s
14 tne bacx ot tne supplementary actions.
15 MR. BEARD This is section 47 f
16 Md. LEHMAN:
Section 4.
I just pulled it 17 just out of the book like this.
I tracad myself 18 tnrough it until I como to the point where it has l ')
you exit to section 6.
i 20 MR. BEARD:
Oxay.
21 MR. LEHMAN Thon I want to section 6 and 22 pullad th: tiow chart out of the bacx of that and 23 traced myaalt down through that.
()
24 MR. DEARD:
All right.
How far did you RUNFOLA & A330CIATc3 (614)445-0477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION l
19 l
1 get into that?
Just tor tha saxe of tne record, 2
it's 3 3
MR. L Ell M A N :
You really just got to the it 4
first step, that is a decision box where you 5
saya main or auxiliary taedwater available.
And 6
it's a yas or no box.
And it was at that point that 7
we were wsiting to see if we could say yas or no.
i I'm I naad 8
MR. BEARD:
Well, did you 9
trying to understsnd, was tuare uncertainty at this 10 point or was it tnat you didn't nave main or aux.
11 feedwater available at the momont but expacted to 1
12 rascquire it momentarily?
13 MR. LEHMAN:
Yes, it was that.
I know we l
14 nad paople out there working.
I nnow that it would i
15 taxa a vary short period of timo for Steve to mane 16 the s t
MR. RosSI:
Thora a procedural guidance l
i 20 that 42ys use piggybick operation Lor that condition 7 i
21 MR. FEAJ5!
Yes, I'm sure there is in 22 hero.
And given tieto, I'm nure I can tind Lt.
JJ MR. ROSSI:
If you can find it now, it l ()
24 would be nice.
I'd tino to 99t the roterance.
RUNFOLA 4 ASSOCIATH3 (014)445-d477 C O M P U f 3 R ! ?. d D T R A NU CH ! P't ! 0H l
l k
32 i
1 MR. dEARD:
Ernie, can I aoK you a 2
question whilo you're looking tnst up.
Did I 3
understand 4
MR. ROSSI:
You nave tha racerence.
1 5
thinx you can loox it up lator, o
Ma. ROSSI:
Why don't wu go ott tna record.
7 (Discuuston ott tna evcord.)
S MR. ROSSI:
We're going bacn on tne record
)
9 naw.
And I guess tna question we were discussing is l
10 I had asked whether Enero was anytning specitic in 11 ene proceduras thit told you co use the piggyback i
i 12 operatiosi of LPI and il P I for PORV cooling.
So 13 you've looxad through the procedura.
Wny don't you 14 go thtad and give whatever answar you daaen right 2nd, 1
15 you know, expand on it it you c,in.
i 16 MR. L EllM A tt I can r<smember this tairly 17 clotely.
HCS prassure win talling due to tne l
la toeding of the steam J a n-s ta to r a, which we Answ would 4
{
19 occur.
The primary sido evictor operstor was I
]
20 feeling tne attects of this in a talling RCS j
i.
pressure ind a subsequent pressurizar laval Jacrosse j
22 just due to th2 shrink on the primsry system.
1 23 As the predauro c ime down, as it startad
()
21 to yet, 1 don't kn0W, somewhere Whan ho pasaod j '3 0 0 HUNFOLA & A330CIATCS (014)145-d477 COMPUTBR12CD TRAtidCRIPTION
33 j
1 pounds, he was afraid that he uight go low enough to s
2 get a sataty testuras actastion on low pressure, 3
which occurs at 1650 pounds.
4 In an ottort to f ores tall tnis, ha asked j
5 permission to put on an IPI system to help boost his 6
RCS inventory.
I told him at that time to piggyback 7
lip I with LPI just to incroans tho discharge prosauro 8
that he would got at that timo because we wara closs 3
to the top in preasure of the HPI pump by itselt.
10 And it was Just for thtt reaaon tnat it was usad.
11 Tnaro's nothing tha t's other than the one 12 rostriction that no mention 2d on using piggyback 13 moda, tnera's nothing wrong with using it at any 14 time for itPI.
15 MR. ROSSI:
Okay.
But I thinx in answer 16 to tns question on wnether there's a spacitic thing 17 thst says use it for PORY cooling.
18 MR. L EliM A N :
There's no specific guidance l ')
for tnat.
20 MR. RO3SI:
No specific guidance for t n.s t.
21 And the exception tnst tells you that you shouldn' t 22 use piggyback, that was only for largs LOCA or is it 23 for small too?
()
24 MR. FEASEL:
It's f or a large broix LOCA HUNPOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-0477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTIOff
34 I
whara you have low prassure injaction tiew into tne p s,
()
2 core and with a suction trom the BWST.
3 MR.
ROSSI:
Not for small braak LOCA?
4 MR.
FEASEL:
Not for small break LOCA.
5 MR. BEARD:
Stevo, is that a situation 6
where you're into thst moda and the guldsnce says it 7
you're thera, don't interrupt it and go piggyback, 8
is that what you baltava to be tne intent?
3 MR.
FEASEL:
The way we've nad it 10 2xplained to us in our training is that evan tnan, 11 piggybacx operation would prob 2bly be acceptable.
12 It just was not analyzad tor it.
It was not dona as
(~T (J
13 part of our analysis.
14 MR.
BEARD:
Do you know, eitnce one of you, 15 it this piggyback mode tnat we're discussing has 16 baan shown on some tachnical basis to be a 17 sufficiant means of cooling the core in a small 13 break LOCA situation such as a stuck open PORV, for 19 examplo, or do you believo it to be just something 20 you try in nopas it's successfull 21 MR.
FEASEL:
Wo did not do this in an 22 attempt to rag 11n 23 MR. BCARD:
This is sort of separate trom
(~')
24 tne avont, moru as hypothotical.
Nj RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTURIZED TRANSCRIPTION
35 1
It R. FEASEL:
.The only small break analysis 7-V 2
that we've seen shows cnst we need approximately 450 3
gallons per minute flow trom tna BdST into the cors 4
in order to prevent tna core trom neating up.
5 Ma. BEARD:
4507 6
MR.
FEASEL:
450.
7 MR. BEARD:
Is there any timo constraint?
8 MR.
FEASEL:
Tha t's within a half hour.
9 MR. BEARD:
Witnin 30 minutes.
10 MR.
FEASEL:
Witnin 30 minutes of the 11 event.
12 MR. BEARD:
Oxay.
13 MR.
FEASEL:
Our make-up system will not 14 do that alon3.
And the HPI pump will not be able to 15 do tnat alone until pressure gets down to about 1300 16 pounds.
17 MR.
BEARD:
So the HPI by itselt is not 18 sufficient until you're less than 1300-pounds 19 roughly.
20 MR.
FEASEL:
Yes.
21 MR. BEARD:
What about the combination, is 22 there some magic number that you nave PORY coolings 23 with both maxe-up and II P I, is tnere some pressure r'~T 24 thing where thst
'd RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
1 I
k 36 1
MR.
FEASEL:
It-RCS pressure is low enough 2
to allow tne HPI pumps to put tnat additional flow 3
in, then there snould be no problem.
It depends on J
4 a lot on what the initial conditions of the event
.5 are, how low the RCS pressure is.
Is the PORV open i
6 soon enough to allow blowing the pressure down.
In 7
other words, is-RCS temperature above the saturation
-8 for, lat's say, 1600 pounds, you Know.
A lot ~of 9
tnat analysis is b a s e'd on some pretty specific f
10 events.
11 MR.
BEARD:
So'in your mind, at least, 12' there's some tecnnical analysis someplace that laads 13 you to believe tnat would give you ~adaquate core 14 cooling.
That if you get 450 tnrough these raised
~
15 pumps within 30 minutes,... t h a t that's a sufficient 16 flow to xcep tne core cooled and you're not-going to 17-have problems.
18 MR. FEASEL:
.Yes.
19 MR..LERMAN:
Yes, wo have observed that at 20 our training at B&W on the simulator..
We nave 21 specifically done that and followed that transient
.1 22 all.the way'down-to. cold shutdown.
)
l 23 MR. BEARD:
Let me ass a different.
(}
24 question if I.might.
Tod, you.said-earlier in RUNFOLA & ' ASSOCI ATES ( 614 ) 44 5-847 7 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION-
.I
~
37 1
reference to-what the pressure was, tnat from f%
L>,
2 looking at the meters occasionally, the pressure.was 3
up around, I think you said 950, 975, someplace in 4-there.
Are you aware whether or'not betwean your 5
glances or someone-else's glances that tna pressure 6-may have fallen substantially.
And, it so, for what 7
cause?
8 MR.
LEHMAN:
No, I. don't' remember that at 9
the time.
10 MR.
BEARD:
Are you aware at this point in 11.
. time,~in-other words, given'this as day 10 ot t n :. s
~
12 campaign, so to speak, that the prassure may have 13 fallen in at least.one or the steam g e n'e r a to r s l
14 substantially before the start-up fasd was acquired?
15
.M R. LEHMAN:
I've.had-the cnarts available, i
16 but I haven' t sa t down and looked at them close.
I 17 did note on one printout from the TSC. computer, the
-l a technical section computers, that pressure did go
~ some-point.
'I haven't specifically 19 oalow the 960 at 1
20, looked at just.how~far it got or what=particular i
21 time.
22-MR. BEARD:
-Suppose I-told you that.I have 23 a copy of one' of those. prints'here that-I'd like to
/~%
24 describe-very briefly,:but suppos'e I' told you thsre V
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION J-
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(
38 I
was a period of something greater than six minutes F
2 whera you were well below the 960, would you be 3
surprised in tarms of tha t's now information to you?
4 And my information is that it was a pratty stsap 1
j 5
fall, and it went down to around 750 as a minimum i
6 value.
But does this coms as new information to you?
-7 MR.
LEHMAN:
It comes as fairly new.
I 8
naven't really observed that.
]
9 MR.
BEARD:
Oxay.
So that I guass what I
c 10 would that be now information, this is before you i
11 got into the overcooling'part of it, at least as I 1
l 12 understand tne transient, you were unaware that l
13.
there nad been such a pressure-dip as such?
1 14 MR. LEHMAN:
Yes.
I' 15 MR. BEARD:
Would you be surprised'it a
'16 dip like this' occurred tor six minutes witnout it i ^
17 being noticed in the control room?
18 MR. LEHMAN:
Considering the ev3nts going J
i 19_
on at'tna. time, I would consider it possible.
t
.20 MR. BEARD:
In other words, you hadn't 21 specifically directed someone to-; keep closs track of 6
22 prassure or you weren' t'specifically. keeping close
~
23 track of pressure-because.that was a critical item-4
(}
L24 a't tnis point then?
Or I'm'asking.
I don't want.to'
'RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES.(614)445-8477
- COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION 4
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39 1
put words in your mouth.
7s GI 2
MR.
LEHMAN:
Not close, no.
3 MR.
LANNING:
Don't you have a trend 4
recorder chart for stsam generator prassure in the 5
control room?
6 MR.
FEASEL:
Not that was available to us 7
that day.
The safety parameter display system doca 8
hava steam generator pressure on it, and it does it is able to trand that paramater.
But 9
it is a 10 it wasn't working that day.
11 MR.
LANNING:
But there's no strip chart 12 in the control room that records steam gen 2rator f3 (l
13 presaure?
14 MR.
FEASEL:
Tha t's true.
15 MR. ROSSI:
J.T.,
do you have anything 16 more?
Do you have something more?
17 MR.
BELL:
One final question.
Both of 18 you gentlemen told us earlier that you'd been at the 19 station greater tnan eignt years.
This procedure is 20 a procadure tnat was required after Three Mile 21 Islsad Unit 2.
22 MR. LEHMAN:
Yes.
23 MR.
BELL:
Could you give ma your opinion
()
24 on this procedure as compared to the proceduras that RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
40 I
were in effect prior to Threa Mile Island Unit 27 I,)
v 2
Is it a better procedure, is it a worse procadure or 3
can you sae any ditterenco?
4 MR.
FEASEL:
I lixe this procedura real 5
well.
I think it's very well writton.
I think 6
there is sufficient guidance in it that, you Know, 7
if you have any equipment left at all, somehow or 8
another you're going to get core cooling.
In using 9
this is tha first time that I hava had to use this 10 procedure at other than the simulator, in a real 11 situation.
12 I think tna procedure holped us idantify q
v 13 tna majority of the tailures that occurrad, and I 14 think the procedure was very instritmental in our 15 having recoverad enis situation in such a snart 16 period of tima.
17 MR.
BELL:
Mr. Lehman, could I nave your 18 opinion?
19 MR.
LEHMAN:
Yeah, I liKe it mysalf.
I t's I almost say compact.
Betore we 20 a very concise 21 would nava to be in maybo two, thres, four 22 proc 2duras.
This is the only document that we hava 23 to pull out.
And it will lead you step by step I'
24 through tne procedure until you do discover your V)
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
t 1,
41 i
1 fault.
I 2
-MR.
BEARD:
Okay.
I nad one last question.
3 I would like to ba hypothatical for a momant and 4
play the devil's advocate and sax you a question in 5
that context.
Supposs someone ware to asx you in 6
soma separate' room than this supposed situation that 7
mayos you thought'that.the operating statt were S
reluctant to put on PORV cooling as early as it may i
9 have'been needed.or may have been required because 4
10 of the consequences of the spill in tha plant and
[.
11 the otner things that'we've discussad here today and, 4
11 2 therefore, didn't put it on wnan it should have bean 13 on.
W h a' t kind of response would you thinx you might i
f 14 give to that k i n'd of a hypothetical question?
15 MR.'LEHMAN:
I navor.folt at'any time that 4
t l
16 I was at the point where it was required at that i
17 time.
Tnere was no reluctance to initiating'it a
l 18 because of the reasons you montioned.
Tnere was no l
19 real reluctance other than just the fact that the 20 the'furtner tne tning-went, if we'd nave gone tnat 21 far, it would have just been a much.more-serious 4
22 event, just that gut feeling.
It was just that we
]
23 never felt 1that we were quite to the point 1where.it j
4
(][
24 was required.-
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES-(614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION l
1 1-.
. ~.,.
_..-.,.,m.
.--,,.r.,
d12 1
MR.
BEARD:
I guess I'm trying to focus,
'%.)
2 Ted, on the issue of in my mind basad on a lot or 3
information I've received trom interviews and lots 4
of otner things, I get the reeling, gut feeling, 5
that the main criteria was more lixe a t;me in the 6
sanse that if we don' t get it back in one minute, 7
damn it, go do it, versus the criterion is pressure 8
level on the two steam generators, and, okay, watch 9
those, and if we go it, than do it.
You see, I've 10 askad a couple of questions in that araa.
And I'm 11 trying to understand.
it 12 MR.
LEHMAN:
It was not so much there was no set time.
It 13 wasn't a time based x
14 was not line we will wait ona core minute.
It was 15 just a mattar of the plant conditions as we observed 16 them at the time.
17 MR.
BEARD:
Would you concur with that, 18 Steve?
19 MR.
PEASEL:
I was outside of the control 20 room during that time trama.
I did not have the 21 indications available to me.
And I feel that what 22 Ted did was 23 MR.
BEARD:
What Ted did.
(}
24 MR.
FEASEL:
Yeah, what Ted did.
And RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
43 the prassuras going 1
without having seen it, this gsC 2
as low as what you previously stated is all naw 3
information to me.
I was not awara of tnat.
4 MR. BEARD:
Well, your being outside ot 5
the control room tna t's pertactly understandable, 6
and apparently this is new to Ted too.
Oxay.
7 MR..TOSSI:
Wayne, you had one.
3 MR.
LANNING:
Since steam generator lavcl 9
was one of the critoria for going to PORV cooling, 10 and as I recall it's 8 inches, on the indicator in 11 the control room, this is a narrow range stoam 12 ganerator level, can you dif terentia te batwaan 8 13 inches and 10 inchas on the scale?
14 MR.
BEARD:
Mayba you could describe the 15 scale.
Maybo tnat would halp you.
16 MR. LEHMAN:
Tha scale le t's see.
It's 17 0 to 250 marked off in large divisiona of 50, marxed it would 18 off in small divisions of tons.
I could 19 be apparent to me if it was below 10 becausa that 20 would -- it would be below a division on the scale.
21 We never saw that.
22 MR.
LANNING:
So there is no numarical 23 value of 8 inchas on your scale ao to speix?
r T 24 MR.
LEHMAN:
No.
V RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-3477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
44 1
MR.
BEARD:
Is tnors any red mark or
,- s (w
2 anything that would tlag you?
3 MR.
LEHMAN:
No.
4 MR. BEARD:
Thara's no special marking at 5
tha t trigger loval?
6 MR. LSHMAN:
Nothing.
7 MR. BEARD:
Is there any special marking 8
on the instrum2ntation at the 960 value?
9 MR.
LEHMAN:
No.
10 MR.
LANNING:
When touring the control 11 room I saw a microphona from the ceiling of the 12 control room.
(Jh A
13 MR.
LEHMAN:
Yes, sir.
14 MR. LANNING:
Could you tell me the 15 purpose of that microphone.
16 MR. LEHMAN:
That is a microphone that is 17 connected to tha TSC along-with the TV camera that la would be plugged in in tna svent ot a action in tna 19 emargency plan where the ISC was manned.
That 20 camera could be put in servica, and tne microphone wall, they could just hear what 21 would give them 22 was going on in the control room.
And the camara is 23 there tor the purpose of scanning the
/~
24 ins trumen ta tion.
(_T/
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
45 1
MR.
LANNING:
Tnat systor was not used f-2 during tnis avant?
3 MR.
LEHMAN:
No.
4 MR.
FEASEL:
It's also tharo tor a serious 5
control room fire.
It's one of the actions tnat we 6
do prior to evacuating tha control room is plug in 7
the microphone and remove tha lens cap from the 8
camera.
9 MR.
BEARD:
That sparks another question 10 if we've got half a second.
I noticed that over on 11 the steam feed rupture control panal where you have i
12 the various buttons to actuate tha various T
s-13 conditions, that one for low lovel asoms to have a 14 special marking on it, loons lixa two very wide red 15 bands.
And the way you've trained your operators, 16 the way you expect them to benave, what's the 17 significance of that red marking?
18 MR. FEASEL:
That's only thare for the 19 sorious control room fire.
All the switches, 20 breakers, whatever, throughout the p l.s n t rignt down 21 to the doors that thsy expect you to usa are marked 22 with thase red marxs to maxe them easily 23 idantifiable in the dark.
(')
24 MR.
BEARD:
Okay.
Is it also or would it RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
46 1
be an appropriate thing to nava marked tot nonfire V
2 emergan:10s?
I'm thinking particularly, altnough I 3
don' t want to lead you, of course, but I'm tninking 4
particularly of wnan you go to actuata the steam 5
feed ruptura control system, if at the ivory soap 6
lavel overy time you sant to do it manually, it's
{
l 7
probably going to be on leval, would it serve this 8
purposa.
9 MR.
FEASEL:
I tand to d i s a.g r e e with tha 10 statement.
Manually we do it on low steam ganerator 11 13 vel.
We have a guidance in our procedure where 12 thay want to us actuate it on low steam prassure 13 particularly if you hava a noniceable steam laak.
I l
14 MR.
BEARD:
I'm not saying they're not l
15 guidance, but tne majority of the timas that it's 16 bacn done, my understanding is and I'm not maxing 17 statements.
I'm really anxing you.
It may sound 1
13 lika a statemant that tne majority ot the timo I
l 19 that it's actuated, it's on low level.
l I
20 MR.
PEASEL:
I agroo with you.
21 MR. ROSSI:
It you actuated tha low 22 pressura, would there'be any cases whero you do both 23 of them at tho same time?
()
24 MR. FEASEL:
No.
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-3477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
47 1
t01. ROSSI:
Are we finished?
2 MR.
BEARD:
That's all I'VO got.
3 MR. LANNING:
One mora.
4 MR. ROSSI:
Okay.
On3 mora.
5 Ma. LANNING:
Last ona.
When you initiate when your raactor operator initiated tna HPI 6
a in the for make-up tiow atter 7
pump, does tnat S
piggyback configurstion.
9 MR.
FEASEL:
I performed that step, yes.
10 MR.
LANNING:
You performed that stop.
11 Does that constitute an actuation of tus SPAS?
12 MR.
FEASE:
We did have flow into Ono coro.
13 It's not a actuation of tne SPAS, but it is a 14 actuation of engineerad safety featuras.
And wo are 15 required to submit a special capart in that 16 particular case.
17 MR.
LANNING:
Was that a full system 18 actuation or just one train.
19 MR.
FEASEL:
Just ons train.
And it 4
it wssn't an SPAS 20 wasn't even a aystem actuation 21 system actuation.
It was an engineered safety 22 faatures.
23 MR. BEARD:
There's a difference at tnis j ()
24 plant.
There is a differ 3nce so we can discuss it RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
=
48 1
later if you choosa.
But the way the consolidated g-2 controls peoplo dasigned the SFRCS and wnatnot, 3
there's a difference.
4 MR. LANNING:
Okay.
5 MR. ROSSI:
Doos anyone nave any other 6
quastions?
This is to tna stenograpner.
Do you 7
have the tact that Mr. Lewis 14 here on tne record.
t 8
THE NOTARY:
Y33.
J 9
MR. ROSSI:
Okay.
Fins.
10 MR.
LANNING:
I'd liKe to Know if thess 11 gentlemen requested Mr. Lewis to be nero7 12 MR.
FEASEL:
No, not apacifically.
40 mot 13 Bill Rowles out in the hall.
lie said that Mr. Lewis 14 woulc be availablu.
Ito led us to believe tnat.from 15 their standpoint it would be advantageous to hava 16 him in ena room, and we had no objactions.
17 MR. LANNING:
Okay.
18 MR. LEWIS:
For the racced I am hero at 19 their invitation.
20 MR. ROSSI:
At whoso invitation?
21 MR.
LEWIS:
Mr. Lehman and Mr. Feas01.
22 And if.they have any concerns they would like to 23 express to this room alone, I'll be glad to leave 24 and give them the opportunity.
({ )
RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-3477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
49 1
MR. BEARD:
Do you nave any sucn concerns?
2
'M R. FEASEL:
I don't.
i 3
ti a. LEHMAN:
I don't.
i 4
MR. LEWIS:
My concern is really i
5 ovarything they want to say gets said, tnat it gets 6
said accurately.
7 MR. BEARD:
I think it's time to ask the 8
classic question we ask at the end of avory 9
interview.
Is tharo something else you want to tell 10 us?
11 MR.
FEASEL:
No.
12 MR. ROSSI:
Wo conclude the interview then.
v 13 14 Thoroupon, the interview was i
15 concluded at 2:10 o'clocx p.m.
i 16 17 ld 19 f
20 21 22 23
([)
24 RUNFOLA & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
50 1
CERTIFICATE 2
I, Anne I.
McBrayer, a R a g i s t e r-e d 3
Protassional Reporter sad Notary Public in and tor 4
tua S ta te of On10, do nereby certity that I took thu 5
Interview of Ted Lonman and Steve F3asal and tnat 6
One toregoing transcript of such proceedings is t 7
tull, trua and correct transcript or my stenotypy S
notas as so takan.
9 I do further cortity that I was called 10 thera in in? capacity or a Court Reportar, and 3m 11 not otnarwisa interosted in unis proc 2ading.
12 IN.JITNESS WHEREOF, I niva norounto 30t my i
kJ 13 nand and affixed my seal ot ottics at Columbus, Onio,
{
r/
Ml[O day at __\\,[4/M______, 19 3 5.
14 on this
//
15 d
M c__
M
(-
l o, A t4 N E I.
McBRAYER RPR snd 17 ti o t a r y Puolic in and for tna Stat? ot Ohio.
13 19 My Commission expires February 3,
1988.
20 21 22 23
/S 24 G
RU:4 FO L A & ASSOCIATES (614)445-8477 COMPUTERIZED TRANSCRIPTION
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