ML20072J133
| ML20072J133 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 03/13/1981 |
| From: | Dunn B BABCOCK & WILCOX CO. |
| To: | |
| References | |
| TASK-*, TASK-01, TASK-02, TASK-1, TASK-2, TASK-GB NUDOCS 8306290949 | |
| Download: ML20072J133 (129) | |
Text
,.
bt 262 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT R
S
/}
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
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v (s/ -
_.________________x s
GENERAL PUBLIC UTILITIES CORPORATION, 3
i JERSEY CENTRAL POWER & LIGHT COMPANY, METROPOLITAN EDISON COMPANY and
('
PENNSYLVANIA ELECTRIC COMPANY, Plaintiffs,
~
-against-THE BABCOCK & WILCOX COMPANY and J.
RAY McDERMOTT & CO.,
INC.,
a Defendants.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _'. _ x continued deposition of The Babcock &
Wilcox Company, by BERT MERRIT DUNN, taken by Plaintiffs, pursuant to adjournment, at the offices of Kaye, Scholer, Fierman, Hays &
~
Handler, Esqs., 425 Park Avenue, New York, i
l
(
New York, on Friday, March 13, 1981, at 9:42 o' clock in the forenoon, before Charles
(
I Shapiro, a Certified Shorthand Reporter and l
Notary Public within and for the State of New York.
DOYLE REPORTING. INC.
CERTWlED STENonps agpon7tas 8306290949 010313 3ee taxi ~c os avcsu PDR ADOCK 05000209 y e, yey, y,y,
,co,7 T
PDR TELEPWC N 112 = $$7 822Q
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1 263 2
Appe arance s:
3 KAYE, SCHOLER, FIERMAN, HAYS & HANDLER, ESQS.
Attorneys for Plaintiffs 4
425 Park Avenue New York, New York By:
_ RICHARD C.
SELTZER, ESQ.
6
-and-ANDREW MacDONALD, ESQ.,
7 of Counsel 8
9 10 DAVIS, POLK & WARDWELL, ESQS.
Attorneys for Defendants I 11 One Chase Manhattan Plaza New York, New York 12 By:
ROBERT B.
FISKE, ESQ.,
O t
_- of Counsel l
14 15 16 Also Present:
1 17 ESTELLE SIMSOLO 18 RUTH RENTGES 19 PATRICIA VAUGHAN 20 ROBERT KEATON (AM SESSION) l l
21 CLINTON MARRS (PM SESSION) 22 23 24 25
[(1
o 1
264
)
- DUNN, resumed, 3
having been previously duly sworn by the 4
Notary Public, was examined and testified 5
further as follows:
6 EXAMINATION (Continued) 7 BY MR. SELTZER:
8 Q
You are aware, are you not, that your 9
testimony today continues to be under oath?
10 A
Yes.
t 11 Q
Other than the memoranda which we 12 have already marked for identification and shown 13 you, are you aware of any other memoranda l
14 having been written with respect to your concern 15 over preamture termination of high-pressure injection 16 prior to the Three Mile Island accident?
l 17 MR. FISKE:
Could I hear the question 18 again, please?
I'm sorry.
19 (Question read by the reporter.)
20 MR. FISKE:
You mean is he today aware 21 of any?
k.
i l
22 MR. SELTZER:
Yes.
23 A
I believe we have marked for identification, I
24 or considered during this deposition a Kelly memo, l
25 memorandum, written in November of
'77, two l
I i
t L: _
~. ~,
~
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i l'
1 Dunn 245 N
2 memorandums by myself written in February of '78 3
and a memorandum by Don Hallman written in August 4
of
'78, and I believe I am aware of one additional 5
memorandum on the subject.
()
6 Q
Frank Walters?
7 A
Yes.
8 Q
That's the memo by Frank Walters in 9
November of 19777 10 A
I believe it's in November of 1977.
it 11 Q
Are you aware of any other memorandum on 12 the subject of premature termination created prior
()
_ 13 to the Three Mile Island accident?
14 A
Not that I recall at this time.
15 Q
Do you have any basis for believing that 16 there are any additional memoranda that were
~
17 created on that subject prior to the Three Mile 18 Island accident?
l 19 A
No.
20 Q
When Kal Goslow came to see you, did he 21 have any notes?
22 A
I don't know.
23 Q
When Al Womack or Alan Womack, as you 24 call him, took over as the Manager of the Plant Os i
25 Design Section, did you and he sit down at or about W
f 1
Dunn 266 l
2 that time to discuss the work of your ECCS Unit?
3 A
I believe we did.
4 Q
Where did you meet?
5 A
I'm not sure.
6 Q
Was anyone else present?
7 A
I'm not sure.
8 Q
Do you believe anyone else was present?
9 A
I have no recollection one way or the other.
10 Q
What was the purpose of the meeting as t
11 you' understood it?
~
12 A
A general let's-get-to-know-each-other-1 13 a-little-bit meeting, what are the dominant issues i
14 with which ECCS-is dealing at this particular time.
15 Q
Anything else?
16 A
Some description of those issues.-
l 17 Q
How long did the meeting last?
18 A
I don't remember.
19 Q
Did you have lunch together,as part 20 f the meeting?
21 A
Not that I recall.
l (L '
l 22 Q
Had you had any prior contact with Al I
23 Womack?
l l
24 A
Yes.
O 25 Q
In support of the work on the MK
I 1
Dunn 267
.f^
\\
2 plant?
3
.A Primarily.
s 4
Q Did you say anything to Alan Womack 5
at that meeting or at any other earlier meeting
)
6 that you had with him after he became head of the 7
Plant Design Section in which you discussed your 8
concern about prematura termination of high-pressure 9
injection?
I 10 A
After he became head of the Plant Design
(
)
11 Section?
12 Q
Yes.
()
13 A
Yes.
l 14 Q
When?
i 15, A
Shortly following the accident at Three 16 Mile Island.
~
17 Q
Did you have any conversation with him 18 at any time before the Three Mile Island accident i
19 in which you discussed your concern?
l 20 A
No, not that I recall.
01
.Q Did Dr. Womack hold monthly staff C) 22 meetings for the Plant Design Section prior to the 23 Three Mile Island accident?
24 A
Approximately.
l 25 Q
Were those attended by most or all l'
I
1 Dunn 268 2
of the Unit Managers in the Plant Design Section?
3 A
That is correct.
s 4
Q Normally you attended and Bruce 5
Karrasch attended, among others?
6 A
Yes.
7 Q
Mr. LaBelle would also attend?
8 A
Yes.
9 Q
At any of Alan Womack's staff meetings 10 did Bruce Karrasch ever mention that Don Hallman t
11 had raised an issue with him with respect to your 12 prescription for how to handle high-pressure
()
13 injection?
14 A
I don't know.
15 Q
Do you have some basis or recollection i
16 that he may have raised'it?
~
i l
17 MR. FISKE:
I object to that question.
18 Q
Is there anything in your recollection 19 that makes you believe that he did raise it at 20 one of the staff meetings?
21 A
No.
L 22 Q
When you said "I
don't know," in 23 response to my earlier question whether Bruce l
24
'Karrasch had raised it, why don't you know whether 25 he raised it?
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Dunn 269
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A For those meetings that I attended, I don't 3
recall a raising of such an issue by Mr. Karrasch.
4 I also do not believe that I attended i
5 all such meetings.
j 6
Q In addition to Unit Managers, who, 7
if anyone else, attended the Womack Design Section 8
staff meetings?
9 A
Substitutes for Unit Managers plus Alan's 10 secretary.
t 11 Q
When you say " secretary," do you mean 12 amanuensis or somebody who' functions as an
(
13, administrative secretary?.-
~~
~
14 A
I don't understand the. term amanuensis.
15 Q
Somebody who is a typist and takes 16 shorthnnd is an amanuensis.
~
17 A
Alan's secretary functions as both a typist 18 and stenographer and for seme purposes-as 19 an administrative assistant.
20 Q
Did Alan continue the practice of hvaing 21 an agenda circulated before or at the staff 22 meetings?
23 A
From time to time.
24 Q
Were any minutes of any of Alan's
'd 25 meetings circulated after the meeting?
r y
[
b 1
Dunn 270 2
A No.
3 Q
Did people take notes _at the 4
meetings?
5 A
Yes.
()
6 Q
Did you take notes at the meetings?
7 A
Yes.
8 Q
Did you ever raise at any of Alan 9
Womack's staff meetings your concern regarding 10 premature termination of high-pressure injection?
t.-
11 A
No.
12 Q
Did you ever raise --
()
13 A
Not prior 'to the accident at Three Mile 14 Island.
15 Q
Prior'to the TMI accident, did you 16
.ever raise for discussion at either Don Roy's 17 staff meetings or at any of Alan womack's 18 staff meetings thematterofpressurikerwater 19 level rising while reactor coolant system 20 pressure dropped?
21 A
I don't believe so.
22 Q
Do you think anybody else did, to the 23 best of your recollection?
24 A
No.
25 Q
Did you ever discuss at any of the s
1 Dunn 271 s
1 2
pre-Three Mile Island accident staff meetings 3
anything concerning loss of pressurizer level 4
off scale low?
5 A
I don't know.
6 Q
Prior to the Three Mile Island 7
accident were safety concerns discussed at any 8
of the Design Section staff meetings?
g A
Not generally.
10 Q
They were sometimes discussed?
t 11 A
I cannot recall such a discussion.
12 Q
.Did you ever discuss at Design 13 Section staff meetings contemplated.. improvements 14 in B&W reactors?
15 A
I am not sure one way or the other.
16 Q
From your familiarity with the agenda, 17 do you believe that the agenda would reflect 18 whether safety concerns were dis cus so ci?
19 MR. FISKE:
I am not sure I understand 20 that question.
21 MR. SELTZER:
From his recollection 22 of the agenda that he has seen does he 23 believe that if we had the agenda in front 24 of us we would be able to tell whether O
25 safety concerns had been discussed at these 04-ib
1 Dunn 272 1
2
. meetings.
N MP.-FISKE:
The question is if safoty 3
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l 4
con ce rns we re discussed, would that be i
5 reflected in the agenda, is that the point?
! (-
6 MR. SELTZER:
No.
It's more the 7
inverse.
8 BY MR. SELTZER:
Do you belieye that by looking at 9
Q. --
i to tell whether 10 the agendayotjwouldbe_able s
I 11 saflity concerns were discussed at the staff 12 meetingsil
~
~
13 A
Nr 14 Q
What kinds of' things were listed on
^
i s
15 the agenda,?
1 f
16 A
iThe_ things proposed for discussion during 17 the staff m'eeting.
s l
18 7
'I'f it had been proposed that a specific
~
I
!j 19 9-tv :or.cern should be discussed, would that 20
- ppanc sn the agenda?
l.
21 A
Maybe.
p i
I 22 Q
Have you discussed safety concerns 23 at staff meetings sinca the TMI accident?
L 24 A
We have, I believe, discussed work related 25 to safety at staff meetings since the accident.
1 i
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1 Dunn 273 2
Q Before the accident, did you discuss 3
work relating to safety at the staff meetings?
4 A
I testified earlier that I didn't recall
)
5 whether we did or did not.
6 Q
Do you now recall whether you discussed 7
work which related to safety at pre-TMI staff 8
meetings?
9 A
No.
I wouldn't change my testimo,ny.
10 Q
Did Alan Womack ever convene meetings t
11 other than the regular monthly staff meetings at 12, which he and several or all of the Unit Managers
()
13 would "get togeth'er?
14 A
Yes.
15 Q
What would be the circumstances for 16 his convening those meetings as you recall?
17 A
I think the circumstances could vary widely.
18 Q
Under what circumstances do you recall 19 Al Womack convening such meetings between his 20 taking over as head of the Design Section in 21 August of 1978 and the Three Mile Island accident?
1 C
l 22 A
Meetings in which one or more members of l
23 the staff was present and other than the meetings 24 I testified to earlier in which we were 25 participating in a general get to know each other
. ' ":. -.-. 2-
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__ _. _ _, _. _ _. _ _ _ ~ _._
l f
1 Dunn 274 2
/%
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2 would be called for general briefing of Mr.
w ma k on the status of work of major importance 3
to the section as it was progressing.
4 5
Q Before the Three Mile Island accident, g
6 did y u ever talk with Alan womack about the Davis-Besse September 1977 transient?
7 6.
A I don't know.
Q Do you believe that you did?
9 10 MR. FISKE:
I am going to object unless e
11 you ask for his recollection.
12 Q
Do you have any recollection whatsoever.
()
13 of having ha'd such a conversation with Alan 14 Womack?
15 A
No.
16 Q
Not even a, glimmer of a recollection?
A Not even a glimmer.
17 18 Q
At any of the meetings oth.er than 19 staff meetings that were held with Al Womack between his becoming head of the Design Section 20 and the Three Mile Island accident, was there 21 (c
22 any discussion of the Davis-Besse event or 23 premature termination of high-pressure injection?
A I d not know.
24 25 Q
At any meeting with Dr. Roy before s
1 Dunn 275 2
the Three Mile Island accident other than the one 3
conversation which you have already described 4
with Dr. Roy, was the subject of the Davis-Besse 5
transient or termination.of high-pressure injection 6
ever raised?
7 A
I do not know.
8 Q
You have no recollection of it being g
raised?
Is that what you are testifying?
10 A
No.-
I do not know.
t
~
11 Q
po you have any recollection of it being 12 raised at any such meeting with Dr. Roy?
()
13 A
I have no such recollection.
14 Q
At meetings with Dr. Roy was there any 15 discussion about pressurizer level going up while 16 reactor coolant system pressure drops-to your 1
17 knowledge?
l 18 A
I do not know.
19 Q
Do you have any recollection of any 20 discussion at an. meeting with Roy or Womack at 21 which saturation in the reactor coolant system 22 was discussed?
23 A
The question was do I have any recollection 24 of any meeting with Dr. Roy or Dr. Womack 25 Q
Prior to the Three Mile Island e--
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1 Dunn 276 "T
2 accident.
3 A
-- prior to the Three Mile Island accident 4
at which the subject of saturation in the t
5 primary system was raised?
6 Did you include in the question hign 7
pressurizer level or was the question just related 3
8 to saturation in the primary system.
9 Q
Let me broaden it.to both 10 disjunctively.
In other words, was either subject t
11 discussed?
I am not requiring as a ' condition that 12 both had been discussed at the same meeting.
13 A
Today I recall meeting with the Section k4 Manager of Plant Design on subjects or, rather, i
15 a subject which related to the occurrence or 16 possible occurrence of saturation in the primary 17 system.
18 Q
When did you have that meeting?
I can't 19 A
At the present I can't recall the
[
'20 fix the time.
21 It was prior to the accident at 22 Three Mile Island.
23 Q
was it before or after the September 24
'77 Davis-Besse transient?
O 25 A
I am not sure.
[.
1 Dunn 277
(
2 Q
Was this a general meeting of the 3
Plant Design Section at which this was discussed?
4 A
No.
)
5 Q
What was the. purpose or context of
(
6 the meeting in which it was discussed?
7 A
Questions had been raised by an NRC site 8
representative relative to pressurizer level 9
going off scale low and it was a briefing to 10 our Section. Manager on how we would respond to t
11 the questions in a general exploration for his 12 edification of the situation.
s
)
13 Q'
How did you get inte a discussion 14 of saturation in the primary system?
15 A
As part of the backup which we would use 16 to enhance our position on the issue we intended l
17 to show that for this particular type of event 18 saturation within the primary system would not l
l 19 create unacceptable consequences within the l
20 reactor core.
i 21 Q
what site was involved?
(.
22 A
The Davis-Besse site.
I l
23 Q
Who was the Site Inspector?
i 24 A
Iidon't know that his title is Inspector.
l 1
i 25 Q
what was his title?
1 Dunn 278 O
t i
2 A
I don't know.
V 3
Q Who was the site person that you are 4
referring to?
5 A
The site person I referred to was an NRC 6
employee and his name was Presswell.
7 Q
Who was the B&W site representative 8
who was being given the benefit of your knowledge?
a 9
A Excuse me?
10 Q
Whom were you edifying with the
(
11 explanation of saturation occurring as a result 12 of voiding of the pressuri.zer?
13 A
The,Section Manager, Plant Design.
~
(
'2 Q
Is the phenomenon that you were 1
15 discussing one in which you have lost all level 16 in the pressurizer so that a bubble is created 17 in the piping adjacent to the pressurizer?
18 A
The phenomena that we were disedssing were 19 those that would accompany the total loss of I
l 20 fluid inventory in the pressurizer.
21 Q
Could you identify who the Plant I
22 Design Manager was at the time of this meeting?
I l
23 A
No.
i 24 MR. SELTZER:
I would like to mark
~
l ()
25 for identification as GPU Exhibit 81 a f
l
1 Dunn 279 2
memo from Eric Swanson t'o Bert Dunn and 3
others dated November 22, 1978, subject 4
Toledo Edison Company Pressurizer Level 5
Meeting.
^'
6 (Memo from Eric Swanton to Bert Dunn 7
and others. dated November 22, 1978, subject 8
Toledo Edison Company Pressurizer Level 9
Meeting, marked GPU Exhibit 81 for 10 identification, as of this date.)
4 11 BY MR. SELTZER:
12
'Q Does GPU Exhibit 81 marked for 2
13 identification refer to the meeting _that you were 14 just referring to?
15 A
I don't believe so.
16 Q
Does GPU Exhibit 81 then refresh 17 your recollection that there was another meeting l
18 among members of the Plant Design Sect, ion at 19 which pressurizer level was discussed?
I 20 A
No.
l 21 Q
Do you recall attending a meeting 22 at which some or all of the items on the agenda 23 attached to GPU Exhibit 81 were discussed?
24 A
At this time I do not recall such a meeting.
O' 25 Q
Is GPU Exhibit 81 a copy of a l
i
I 1
Dunn 280 2
memorandum which you believe you received in 3
the regular course of business in or about late 4
November of 19787 r
5 A
Yes.
6 Q
You were requested by this memorandum 7
to participate in a meeting to discuss design and 8
requirements for the Toledo.auxiliar feedwater 9
operation, et cetera, to be held on I!onday, 10 November 27, 1978.
e 11 Did you attend such a me'eting?
12 A
I don't know.
t 13 Q
Do you keep a-diary?
l 4
l 14 A
No.
15 Q
Do you maintain a desk calendar?
16 A
Yes.
17 Q
If you wanted to find out whether on 18 Monday November 27, 1978 you attended a meeting 19 like the one described here, would you.be able i
20 to check your 1978 desk calendar?
21 A
No.
22 Q
Why not?
23 A
My desk calendar is of the rip-off type 24 and previous pages would be in the incinerator O\\
25 or the trash.
l l
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-e-w
-+,,,,
1 Dunn 281 2
Q Probably have long since been 3
incinerated or disposed of?
4 THE WITNESS:
Can I answer probably 5
to that?
(
6 MR. FISKE:
Yes.
7 A
Probably.
8 Q
Did you take the opportunity of this 9
November 27, 1978 meeting to discuss with those 10 in attendance the problem of. rising pressurizer t
11 level?
MR. FISKE:
Mr. Seltzer, I 'think he 12 13 has just testified that he doesn't recall 14 the meeting.
15 MR. S E LTZE R :
Maybe my stimulating 16 question will encourage a recollection.
17 A
I don't know.
18 Q
Do you have any recollectkon of doing 19 so?
20 A
No.
21 Q
Do you see anything in the attached 22 agenda which would refer to a discussion of rising j
23 pressurizer level including rising pressurizer 24 level in response to saturation in the primary Os
~
25 system?
I l
is.
j 1
Dunn 282 j
)
2 MR. FISKE:
Could you please repeat 3
the question.
4 (Record read.)
5 MR. FISKE:
I guess your question,
(.
6 Mr. Seltzer, is whether any of' the items 7
on the agenda deal with that subject?
8 MR. SELTZE R :
Exactly.
You said it 9
much better than I was trying to.
10 A
The answer is no.
E 11 MR. SELTZER:
I would like to mark 12 for identification as GPU Exhibit 82 a I'h 13 memorandum from L.
R.
Cartin to Bruce,
Q,]- -
14 Karrasch with a copy to Bert Dunn dated
~^
15 November 29, 1978,* subject Toledo Edison -
16 B&W Meeting Minutes.
17 (Memorandum from L.
R.
Cartin to 18 Bruce Karrasch with a copy to Bert Dunn dated 19 November 29, 1978, subject Toledo Edison 20 B&W Meeting Minutes, marked GPU Exhibit 21 82 for identification, as of this date.)
22 BY MR. SELTZER:
23 Q
First, I would like to ask you to 24 turn to the page which is fourth from the back, 25 the list of attendees, Attachment 1.
1 Dunn 283
" Meeting on Control of
(,)
2 It says, 3
Steam Generator Level and Associated Pressurizer 4
Level at Lynchburg," November 27, 1978.
5 Do you see that?
6 A
Yes.
7 Q
Do you see the handwriting that I am 8
Pointing to?
9 A
Yes.
10 Q
What does it say there?
E 11 A
It says under that line, "Bert'Dunn, B&W, 12 ECCS Analysis."
13 Q
That's your-handwriting, isn't it?
14 A
It could be.
15 Q
Does it appear.to be?
Is that about 16 the way you write "Bert Dunn, BAW, ECCS Analysis"?
l 17 A
Yes.
l 1
l 18 Q
Does that refresh your recollection l
l 19 that you did attend a meeting on November 27, l
20 1978 at which you discussed pressurizer level 21 with respect to Davis-Besse Unit 17 22 A
No.
l 23 Q
Would you conclude from that that you r-24 did attend such a meeting on November 27, 19787 I
l
(
)
~'
25 MR. FISKE:
I object to that question.
we-
1 Dunn 284 A'( )
2 MR. SELTZER:
I think I am still i
3 entitled to his answer.
4 MR. FISKE:
Well, I don't think Mr.
5 Dunn is in any better position to draw that 6
conclusion than anybody else.
7 MR. SELTZER:
He may know the practice 8
that he engages in whether he would put his g
name down on an attendance list of a 10,
meeting without having been at the meeting
(
11 just to fake his having been tIhe,re or whether 12 he believes seeing his name on an attendance
- ~D 13 list is good evidence that he,was at the (J
14 meeting, that's my question.
15 MR. FISKE:
Well --
16 BY MR. SELTZER:
17 Q
Do you believe that seeing your name l
19 on this attendance list and conceding.that that is l
19 your handwriting, that it is good evidence that you l
l 20 were at that meeting?
21 MR. FISKE:
Well, I will object to
(.
22 the form of the question.
t You can answer it, Mr. Dunn.
23 24 A
I believe we conceded that this was probably J
25 my handwriting.
l I
1 Dunn 285 0)
'(,
2 Relative to seeing my name on cuch an attachment as this, I believe this would be 3
4 good evidence that I attended such a meeting.
j 5
g would you take a minute and,look at f
(;
6 the names of the the other people who attended 7
the meeting.
8 Had you had any previous communication g
with Terry Murray who by November '78 was the 10 Station Manager at the Davis-Besse plant?
i
(
11 A
I don't know.
12 Q
Did you know that Terry Murray had been O) l 13 the " Assistant Station Superintendent at the time 14 of the September 1977 transient?
15 A
I don't believe so.
16 Q
Had you ever had any prior communication 17 with Fred Miller or Chuck Domeck?
i 18 A
Yes.
19 Q
Which of those had you had, prior 20 contact with?
21 A
I know that I have had prior contact at this 22 time with Fred Miller.
23 Q
What was the circumstance under 24 which you previously contacted Miller?
25 A
Issues concerning licensing at the Davis-Besse
\\..
\\
'l Dunn 286 O).
'w 2
plant.
3 MR. SELTZER:
C"ould you read back the 4
last answer, please.
5 (Record read.)
q3 6
A I meant "o f. "
7 Q
What did you just say?
8 A
Issues concerning licensing of the 9
Davis-Besse plant as opposed to the "at."
10 Q
Had you ever talked with any of the t
11 People from Toledo Edison about the September 12 24, 1977 transient?
(
13 MR. FISKE:
You mean between the 14 transient and the date of this meeting, is 15 that your question?
-16 MR. S ELTZE R :
No, ever.
Let's do it 17 in steps.
I will take your suggestion.
18 Q
Did you ever talk to any Davis-Besse 19 employee or Toledo Edison employee prior to 20 November 27, 1978 about any aspects of the 21 September 24, 1977 transient?
22 A
Not that I recall.
23 Q
At the November 27, 1978 meeting 24 did you seize this specific opportunity to 25 discuss with any of these three people the
'~
1 Dunn 287
('N s,)
2 September 24, 1977 transient?
t 3
MR. FISKE:
I will object to the form 4
of the question.
5 Q
You may answer.
g
,6 A
Not that I recall.
7 Q
At any time up to the present have 8
you ever talked to anybody from Toledo Edison 9
about the September 24, 1977 transient?
10 A
I don' t know.
I 11 Q
Do you have any recollection that 12 you did so?
O) 13 A
No.
u 14 Q
At the November 2 7, 1978 meeting that 15 you attended, did you raise with anybody for 16 discussion the problem o f te rmination. o f high 17 pressure injection?
18 MR. FISKE:
I will object to the form 19 of the question.
20 Q
You may answer.
21 THE WITNESS:
Let me have that question 22 again, please.
23 (Record read. )
24 A
I don ' t want to be on the record as admitting 25 that I attended the 11/27/78 meeting other than
1 1
Dunn 288 i
2 as we have previously established in the 3
deposition.
s 4
Q Wait a second.
Seeing your name on 5
the list, do you presently have any doubt that you 6
attended the meetin'g?
7 A
No.
8 Q
Now will you answer the question.
9 A
I don't believe I raised issues, the issue 10 of terminating high-pressure injection with e
11 Toledo personnel.
12 Q
Did you raise with them any issue
()
13 relating to ris'ing pressurizer water level?
14 A
At any time?
15 MR. FISKE:
I think he is asking 16 about this meeting.
I l
17 Isn't that the question?
l l
~
l 18 MR. SELTZER:
Yes.
19 A
Not recalling being at the meeting, or the 20 meeting,'I don't know.
21 Q
When you attend a meeting such as this 22 11/27 meeting, and when I say "such a meeting,"
4 23 I mean as described in the agenda which is
- 24 and which we have also previously
%)
25 marked as GPU Exhibit 81, do you normally take
...7
..,,,__,__,,_.__n
_-..,n.,
.,.,__,,.w,.,
w
~. -
ik 1 1
Dunn 289
)
2 notes at such a meeting?
3 A
Yes.
4 Q
Where would you look if you wanted to 5
find your notes of the November 27, 1978 meeting?
6 A
I don't believe I would try.
7 Q
Why?
8 A
I think it's unlikely that I would succeed.
9 Q
What is your normal practice with 10 regard to what you do with notes that you have t
11 taken at a meeting such as this?
12 A
To use those notes while the issue is present
(}
13 and to discard them thereafter.
14 Q
Would you take a look at page 3 of 15 GPU Exhibit 82.
16 MR. FIS KE :
Page 3, did you say?
17 MR. SELTZER:
Page 3.
18 Q
Under-tha heading "Section.III" it l
19 states that "The need to maintain press,urizer level 20 during normal accident conditions was discussed at 21 length."
22 Does that refresh your recollection l
23 as.to whether there: was any discussion of rising t
l 24 Pressurizer. laveL during. th~e Novenber 27 meeting?
25 A
No.
l I
k -
[
l Dunn 290 2
Q Would you take a look at Table 2 under 3
the center, " Condition II Events."s 4
MR. FISKE:
What is the number of that 1
5 Page?
g; 6
MR. SELTZER:
Off the record.
7 (Discussion off the record.)
8 MR. SELTZER: I am going to show the 9
witness a slightly clearer copy just because 10 it's an earlier generation of photocopying.
t 11 MR. FISKE:
Fine.
4 12 BY MR. SELTZER:
()
13 Q
I't is,tbus
~
same document, but produced 14 from somebody else's file, I believe.
15 Do you see what the center column is 16 under " Condition II Events"?
17 A
Yes.
18 Q
What does it say there?
19 A
I am not sure.
20 Q
Does it look like it's " stuck open 21 relief valve"?
22 A
That's part of it.
I 23 MR. FISKE:
Where?
(
24 THE WITNESS:
(Indicating)
\\-
l 25 Q
Was there any discussion that you can e---m.
--,-n-,-
- - - - - - - ~ ~ - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1 Dunn 291 O)
(,
2 recall at the November 27th meeting with 3
Davis-Besse personnel about a stuck-open relief 4
valve on the pressurizer?
5 A
I don't know.
(
6 Q
Is there any reason that you can 7
-recall why you would have been reluctant to raise 8
at this November 27th meeting issues of rising g
pressurizer level, stuck-open relief valve, 10 premature termination of high-pressure injection?
e 11 MR. FISKE:
You mean would he have had 12 a positive reason not to bring it up?
. ( )
13 MR. SELTZER:
Right.
f 14 A
I think the answer to the question requires 15 speculation.
16 MR. FISKE:
Well, the only' question 17 that Mr. Seltzer is asking you is whether 18 you recall at the time whether you had a 19 reason not to bring this up.
I 20 A
I do not recall at the time whether I had a I
21 reason not to bring this up.
22 Q
Before you go into meetings with 23 customers, do others from B&W come up to you 24 sometimes and say, "Now, let's remember not to 25 disc 4ss such-and-such with the customer"?
l 1
- - - ~, -.
1 Dunn 292 2
A Yes.
3 Q
Do you have any recollection of 4
anybody coming up to you before this November 27 5
meeting and telling you not to discuss something
.C 6
in front of the Toledo Edison people?
7 A
No, I do not recall.
s 8
Q Did you know that Terry Murray was 9
in the control room at the Davis-Besse plant 10 during the September 24, 1977 transient?
11 MR. FISKE:
You mean did he know it 12 on November 27, 19787 l
13 MR. SELTZER:
No.
Has he ever known s
14 that.
15 MR. FISKE:
All right.
l l
16 A
I don't believe so.
17 MR. SELTZER:
Off the record.
18 (Discussion off the record.)
19 (Recess taken.)
l 20 BY MR. SELTZER:
21 Q
Between the Davis-Besse event and the
()
r l
22 Three Mile Island accident, what other meetings 23 did you have with Davis-Besse personnel other than
(
24 the November 27, 1978 meeting?
)
\\J 25 A
was the question qualified by "other than l
l i
r+
~
1 Dunn 293 2
the" 3
MR. FISKE:
Yes.
4 A
In view of the date of this exhibit, 82, r
5 and subject to the accuracy of that date, I recall 6
one other meeting between B&W and Davis-Besse 7
personnel in that time frame.
8 Q
When was that and whom did you meet 9
- from Davis-Besse?
10 A
I can't tell you exactly when that was or
(
11 who the Davis-Besse representatives'were, 12 definitively.
l
[)
13 Q
What was that?
l
(</
~
14 A
I cannot tell you when exactlp that was l
15 and definitively who the Davis-Besse 16 representatives were.
17 Q
Who do you believe the Davis-Besse 18 representatives were?
l 19 MR. FISKE:
You mean based on a E
20 recollection?
i 21 MR. SELTZER:
No, I would like it to 22 be a pure figment of his imagination.
23 obviously I want it to be something 24 that he recalled.
O l
25 A
I don't recall.
It would have to be an
"^
1 Dunn 294
'(_)
2 expectation.
3 Q
whom would you expect attended?
4 MR. FISKE:
I don't think that will
)
5 get us very far.
[]
6 Q
From what would you have an 7
expectation of who from Davis-Besse would attend?
8 A
From my general interaction with Davis-Besse, 9
knowing who they would typically send to these 10 types of meetings.
e
~
11 Q
What type of meeting are you-12 referring to?
()
a meeting between $&W, Davis-Besse,'
13 A
It was s_-
~
14 other utility representatives, and I believe Region 3
15 3 inspectors, although I am not sure of the title 16 of the NRC representatives.
~
17 Q
Is that the meeting that Sushil Jain 18 attended for Toledo Edison?
19 A
I have no idea.
20 MR. SELTZER:
I would like to mark as i
21 GPU Exhibit 83
- a. memo from Womack to Cartin, 22 with an attached letter from the NRC to 23 Taylor, dated February 6,
1979.
g 24 (Memo dated February 6,
1979 from k-]
25 Womack to Cartin, with an attached letter
1 Dunn 295
'2 from the NRC to Taylor, was marked GPU 3
Exhibit 84 for identification, as of this 4
date.)
5 MR. SELTZER:
I would also like to
(
6 mark as GPU Exhibit 84 a memo from Willse 7
to Distribution dated March,9, 1979, 8
subject:
Loss of Pressurizer Level 9
Indication.
(Memo from Willse to Dis.tribution 10 i
11 dated March 9, 1979, subject: " Loss of 12 Pressurizer Leve.1 Indication, was marked
()
13 GPU Exhibit. 84 for -identification, as of 14 this date.)
15 BY MR. SELTZER:
16 Q
GPU Exhibit 84 str.tes in its first 17 p aragraph,
"A meeting to discuss the loss of 18 pressurizer level indication at Davis-Besse-1 19 was convened on February 14, 1979 at th,e B&W 20 offices in Lynchburg.
Those in attendance were:"
21 and it lists a covey of people.
You are listed as 22 an attendee on behalf of B&W.
23 Is it correct that you attended a 24 meeting on or about February 14, 1979 at B&W's O
l 25 offices to discuss loss of pressurizer level
-6
1 Dunn 296 2
indication at Davis-Besse?
3 A
It is true that I attended part of the 4
meeting.
5 Q
Approximately how long were you in
(
6 attendance?
7 A
I believe two to three hours.
8 Q
In GPU Exhibit 83 Allen Womack writes 9
in the second paragraph, "I understand that you 10 will be prepared to recommend a B&W position on t
11 these matters to an-in-house meeting'on February 9.
12 I will look forward to a full review of this
()
13 important subject at that time."
Did you attend the in-house February 14 i
15 9th meeting?
16 A
I don't know.
17 Q
In the two to three hours that you I
18 attended the meeting on February 14th,_was there 19 any discussion of pressurizer water level rising?
l 20 A
I don't know.
(
i 21 Q
Do you have a sense that you were 22 in enough hot water on the issue of the level 23 dropping that you didn't want to get into the 1
24 level rising?
O 25 MR. FISKE:
I object to that question, l
h.
1 Dunn 297 2
the form of that question.
3 MR. SELTZER:
I am just referring to 4
the temperature of the pressurizer water.
1 5
MR. FISKE:
What is the question?
g 6
MR. SELTZER:
Please repeat the 7
question.
8 (Question read.)
9 MR. FISKE:
Are you asking him again 10 did he have a reason not to bring that t
11 subject up?
Is that what you $re getting at?
12 MR. SELTZER:
Yes.
13
'Q You may answer.
14 MR. FISKE:
I think he was about to.
15 MR. SELTZER:
Oh.
16 A
No.
17 BY MR. SELTZER:
l 18 Q
Does this refresh your recollection, 19 looking at the attendance list from the meeting, 20 that Sushli Jain was the Toledo Edison l
l 21 representative at the meeting?
l 22 A
No.
~
I 23 Q
I asked you a moment ago whether you 24 had attended the February 9th meeting that was
(
25 referred to in Womack's memo, GPU Exhibit 83, and f
.~
-n..
- - - - - - -,. - - - - - - - ~, - - - -.,, -
l l
1 Dunn 298 1
I 2
you said you didn't recall attending it.
3 A
I believe I said I didn't know.
4 Q
O.K.
r 5
Did you say you didn 't know because 6
you didn't recc11 attending it?
7 A
I do not recall attending it.
8 Q
Let me see if I can refresh your 9
recollection by reading to you from testimony you 10 gave under oath to the President's Commission.
11 MR. FISKE:
Is that a deposition?
12 MR. SELTZER:
It is the deposition on
()
-13 page 205.
~
14 Q
At line 22, you were asked, "Did you 4
15 attend a preparation meeting on February 9, 16 1979 here at the Nuclear Power Generat' ion Division 17 to prepare B&W's position for the meeting that 18 ultimately occurred on February 14, 1979?"
7 19 The answer that you gave then was, "I
20 attended a preparation meeting for the February 21 14th meeting.
As to whether it was on February 22 9th or not, I can't recall, but I attended that t
23 meeting."
i 24 Does that refresh your recollection?
l
(">T u-l 25 A
To the point that I attended preparation I
1 Dunn_
299 2
meetings for the February 14th meeting, I can 3
testify yes, I attended such a meeting.
As to 4
whether it was the February 9th meeting or not, I 5
stand on my testimony.
{
6 Q
Do you mean when I asked you, a
7 referring to this sentence in GPU Exhibit 83, 8
whether you had attsnded the preparation meeting 9
referred to there as taking place in-house on 10 February 9th, you recalled as you were thinking i
11 about your answer that you had attended a 12 preparation meeting but you couldn't recall
()
13 whether it was on February 9th?
14 A
I believe that's a fair statement.
15 g
well, I don't mind telling you I think 16 that is playing the cards a little bit close to 17 the vest.
l l
18 MR. FISKE:
Mr. Seltzer, if you want 19 to go back and have the question. reread, 20 then you can make whatever judgment you 21 want, but I think the record will stand.for l
22 itself on what the question was and what the 23 answer was.
24 MR. SELTZER:
Let's go back and see
\\_)
25 what the question was, please.
c.1.
n.
b
[
N'i 3
1 Dunn 300 s
(
2 (Record read.)
- .V
~
i-
3 MR. FIST.E s So what's your next
~
4 question?
y BY MR. SEI,TZER :
'i 6
'Q So it is now your recollection that 7
you, do rec'all autending a meeting on or about
.8 February 9th to prepare for the February 14th v
i 9
meeting.Vith the NRC7 s
y 7
N 10 A
On or about February 9th, or rather I recall e
v 11 attending a preparation meeting for t[he meeting of
\\
the 14th.
6 12 v
13 lj And you don't'know one way or the
~
14 other whether that nesting was on February 9th g
,}
th or some c.ther day in advance of the 14th, do you?
m 16 A
That t, s 'true.
l, '
17
-MR.
FISKE:
Off the record.
- 3 18 (Discussion off the record )
19 Q
Where,was che preparation meeting held?
20 '
A In the B&W office building on Old Forest w
21 Road.
22 Q
How long was the preparation meeting?
23 A
Several hours.
[
24 Q
Did you talk at that meeting?
b(N 2s A.
Yes.
'.5
.2 N
- 4. O 4
s F
.1
i 1
Dunn 301 2
Q Did you talk at the February 14th 3
meeting?
4 A
Today I am not sure.
I was prepared to talk.
5 Q
At the preparation-meeting did you g) 6 discuss rise in pressuriser level?
4 7
A I don't know.
s 8
Q Do you have any recollection of rising 9
pressurizer level or premature termination of 10 high-pressure injection being discussed at the 4
t 11 preparation meeting?
12 A
I have no recollection one way or the other
()
13 about rising pressurizer level.
14 I do not believe premature l
15 termination of high-pressure injection was 16 discussed.
i 17 (continued on next page. )
18 19 20 21 I
(u 22 23 25 7,.'
m
1 Dunn 302 2
Q With respect to the November 27, 3
1978 meeting, which you testified you did,n't 4
recall attending, since we seem to be covering 4
5 a semantic difficulty that I hadn't anticipated g
6 do you recall attending any meeting in or about 7
Novembsr 1978 at which Toledo Edison pressurizer 8
level was discussed?
l 9
A I recall attending several meetings in 10 this overall time frame at which. discussions on t
11 the subject were held.
12 Q
Do you recall attending a meeting in
~%
(J) 13 or about-November 1978 which was attended by 14 any of the three gentlemen from Toledo Edison 15 who also signed the same attendance sheet that 16 you signed?
17 MR. FISKE:
That's Domer --
18 MR. SELTZER:
Domeck.
Domeck, Miller and 19 MR. FISKE:
20 Murray?
1 21 THE WITNESS:
I would like to have that 22 question re-read for detail.
23 (Record read. )
24 A
No.
25 g
Do you remember attending any meeting 9
1 Dunn 303 2
with any of those people to discuss pressurizer 3
level?
s 4
A I do not remember.
5 Q
You said you remembered attending g
6 several meetings in this time frame to discuss 7
pressurizer level, is that right?
8 A
Yes.
9 Q
Do you remember --
10 A
Excuse me.
I remember attending several 4
11 meetings during this time frame on the general 12 subject dealing with these memos.
You put in l
t.
13 pressurizer level and I responded too quickly.
I m-g 14 Q
What subjects other than pressurizer 15 level were discussed at these meetings?
l 16 A
The meetings generally refer to. pressurizer
~
t 17 level going low and the consequences of such an 18 event.
l 19 Q
Did you have any discussions with 20 anybody before these meetings with people from 21 outside B&W regarding whether you should raise
(_
l 22 concerns about rising pressurizer level at either i
23 the meetings with Toledo Edison or the meetings g
24 with the NRC?
(A N.
25 A
Different discussion with people outside y
m...L+m
+m-
9 1
Dunn 304 2
Inside, inside B&W.
3 4
A Inside B&W about whether I should raise
)
5 questions concerning the-pressurizer level going 6
high?
I don't believe so.
7 Q
Womack had taken over from Roy as 8
the head of the Plant Design Section by the time 9
these meetings rolled around.
10 Did you ever tell Alan Womack that you 11 thought the issue of rising pressurizer level 12 and termination of high-pressure injection ought 13 to be given a dorum either with Toledo Edison or 14 with the NRC7 15 A
No.
16 MR. SELTZER:
I would like to mark as 17 GPU Exhibit 85 a memo from Fairburn to 18 Distribution, April 4,
1979, Supplementary 19 Operating Instructions for High Pressure i
20 Injecti a System.
21 (Memo from Fairburn to Distribution,
~
i 22 April 4, 1979, Supplementary Operating 23 Instructions for High Pressure Injection 24 System, marked GPU Exhibit 85 for 25 identification, as of this date.)
g.
g Dunn 305 2
BY MR. SELTZER:
Q Are you aware that GPU Exhibit 85 3
4 marked for identification is a copy of the 5
supplementary operating instructions for the high g
6 pressure injection system which B&W issued to its 7
customers shortly after the Three Mile Island 8
accident?
9 A
No.
10 Q
What information do you have about t
11 the instructions that B&W sent out on operation 12 of high-pressure injection immediately after
(
13 the Three Mile Island accident?
14 A
I believe information was sent out which 15 contained the prescription described in this 16 document on management of the high-pr'ssure e
17 injection system during an accident, and I believe
~
18 that this document is a copy of that instruction.
l 19 Q
What, if any, role did you have in 20 the preparation of the contents of GPU Exhibit _857 21 A
I participated in a meeting prior to the l
22 issuance of information on the subject to our l
23 customers to decide what the technical content 24 of that information should be.
25 Q
When was that meeting held?
s OO
.mr-
-y y++9e-*-
7
--a i+&v ee-'--
-Ma----w-T
1 Dunn 306 (m
(_)
2 A
I don't recall the exact date.
3 Q
Where was the meeting?
4 A
In my office.
5 Q
Who attended?
6 A
Mr. Jim Taylor and Mr. Norm Elliott.
7-Q That was a meeting sometime after 8
March 28th and before April 4th?
9 A
Yes.
10 Q
How long did that meeting last?
t 11 A
I am not sure.
One to two hours.
12 Q
Who convened the meeting?
()
~
13 A
I am not sure that I ca'n respond positively 14 to that.
~
15 Q
Do you have a belief, a best 16 recollection, as to who convened it and, if so, 17 who?
l 18 A
I was informed that there would.be such a 19 meeting by Alan Womack and who the participants 20 would be.
l 21 Q
Did Al Womack attend any part of the l
22 meeting?
23 A
Not that I recall.
24 Q
Was this the first time that you b
25 discussed with Norm Elliott the occurrence of
2 1
Dunn 307 2
operators prematurely terminating high pressure 3
injection?
4 A
To my knowledge, yes, 5
Q What was Elliott's participation in j{.
6 the meeting in your office?
7 Let me back up and take it more 3
logically, s
9 How did the meeting get started?
Who i
10 said what to whom at the start of the meeting?
t 11 A
At present, I don't really recall the details l
12 of the meeting, the first subject addressed was
)
13 an exploration of why we were" meeting.
14 Q
Who participated in tha't exploration?
15 A
I believe all of us did.
i 16 Q
What was said on that subject in l
17 words or substance?
18 A
In substance, I believe wa said.that the 19 NRC had requested that we provide them.our opinion l
20 n what guidance should be given operators to 21 prevent the reoccurrence of accidents similar to (L-t 22 Three Mile Island and that we should also issue i
23 guidance to that extent directly to our customers.
24 Q
What was Norm Elliott's contribution f
25 to the meeting?
.,-e
~
m' m-T rwe
-s-m---+-
,---r
+r
-,n-w
-~-vs--,-~>--mu=--~w-r-
nn------s-r--~
~ - -
= ~ - - - - - ' -
i Dunn 308 f}
(_/ -
2 A
We all participated in a review of my 3
earlier March 16th memorandum --
4 MR. FISKE:
February 16th.
I 5
THE WITNESS :- February 16th, excuse
{
6 me.
7 A
Memorandum and explored whether it was 8
sufficient for the purposes of preventing 9
occurrences similar to Three Mile Island and 10 to some extent possible problems that would be t
11 created by the issuance of such instructions 12 and jointly concluded that very similar instructions
s 13 should be issued.
14 Q
Very similar to the instructions you 15 drafted and sent to Taylor on February 16, 19787
~
16 A
Yes.
17 Q
And you felt that the dissemination 18 of instructions very similar to those -which you 19 had sent around on February 6, 1978 would help 20 prevent a recurrence of an accident such as the 21 Three Mile Island accident?
k
^
22 A
Yes.
I 23 Q
Did Norman Elliott tell you in words
(~%
24 or substance that he didn't think the revised
'%)
25 instructions made a useful contribution?
l I
l
1 Dunn 309 2
A No.
3 Q
Did Norman Elliott tell you in words 4
or substance that he thought the existing procedures 5
which plant operators ha.d were sufficient?
)
6 MR. FISKE:
You mean did he say that, is that the question?
7 8
MR. SELTZER:
In words or substance, 9
yes.
10 A
I don't recall.
(
11 Q
Did Norm Elliott ask you' or Taylor 12 to take a look at the existing procedures which 13 plant operators had to see 'if those-procedures 14 were sufficient to avoid an accident such as the 15 Three Mile Island accident?
16 A
I don't believe so.
l 17 Q
At the mee ting that you had with i
l 18 Elliott and Taylor, did you examine the procedures l
19 drafted by B&W for use on the Lynchburg i
20 simulator?
A No.
21 r'
22 Q
At the meeting that you had with 23 Taylor and Elliott, did you discuss any of the 24 procedures, which,B&W had previously drafted and 25 disseminated to operators for handling small
~
1 Dunn 310 2
break loss of coolant accidents?
3 A
No.
4 Q
Did you discuss with Norm Elliott 5
at the meeting what kind. of training the B&W g
6 Training Services Group had been giving to 7
operators for dealing with small break loss 8
of coolant accidents?
9 A
I don't recall one way or the other.
10 Q
Did you discuss with Norm Elliott a
11 the fact that the prescription that you had made 12 in February 1978 and which was going to be
()
13 released in substantially identical' form in 14 April of 1979 would be a change from the 15 procedures previously issued by B&W7 16 MR. FISKE:
Could I hear the question l
l 17 again,'please?
I am sorry.
18 (Record read.)
t 19 A
I don't believe B&W issues procedures.
20 Procedures for handling accidents for operating l
21 nuclear power plants are, I believe, the 22 responsibility of the utilities.
23 Q
I won't quibble with you about s
24 legalisms.
25 It's a fact, isn't it, that B&W, to i
l
~
l
., ~.
c...
1 Dunn 311 bi
(_)
2 your knowledge, has drafted procedures and sent 3
drafts of procedures to operating utilities, isn't 4
that a fact?
5 A
I have been told that under contract B&W 6
has at times participated in the drafting of 7
procedures.
8 Q
Have you been told that B&W has.
g sent drafts of procedures to operating utilities?
10 A
Subject to legal connotation, I think the e
11 answer is yes.
i 12 Q
Were you aware at the time that you
()
13 meet with Taylor and Elliott after'the Three
- 14 Mile [sland accident and before April 4,
- 1978, 15 that the prescription for operating the high 16 pressure injection system which you w'ere 17 promulgating was different from the procedures
~
18 which B&W had previously drafted and sent to l
19 operating utilities?
l 20 A
'No.
i 21 Q
Did you have any belief about 22 whether what is contained in GPU Exhibit 85 was m
23 the same or different from the procedures 24 that had previously been draf ted by B&W and sent 25 to operating utilities?
i
=
4 g-p--
.e-4
,-m.p 4,-,,,
4w
.-.g
,,,-----,--44 y---
..--n--m_gn-,--..-
._-n--n-w
1 Dunn 312
(*
t 2
A I have an assumption.
3 0,
What is that?
4 A
I had assumed that draf t procedures or
(
5 guidelines for draf t procedures issued by asW 6
prior to March 28th, 1979 or April 4th did not 7
deal with the termination.of high-pressure 8
injection in the manner that I was proposing 9
in my February 16th memo.
10 Q
What was that assumption based on?
11 MR. FISKE:
This is the assumption 12 that he had on or about April 4th when A()
13 these procedures were being drafted.
14 Q
Is that when you had the assumption?.
15 MR. FIS KE :
That's the time period you 16 have been asking him about.
17 MR. SELTZER:
All right.
If he wants 18 to say that's the period of his' assumption, 19 that's fine.
I am not quarreling.
I 20 Q
Is this an assumption that you had 21 at the time that GPU Exhibit 85 was being developed?
(L 22 A
Not exactly.
23 Q
When did you develop this as sump tion?
("/
T 24 A
Much later.
x_
25 Q
What was the assumption based on?
1 Dunn 313 2
A The assumption that the communication to 3
the customer does not contain these type of 4
recipes was based on the fact that the operator 5
at Davis-Besse and later.at Three Mile Island g
i 6
had not behaved 'in a manner consistent with such 7
a recipe.
The reason for my statement "not 8
exactly" is that I don't recall when I became aware 9
of the nature in which we communicated information 10 on operations to the customers.
(
11 Q
At the meeting that you have just 12 described or at any subsequent meeting, have you j
/N
( )
13 discussed with Norm Elliatt modifications in 14 training to e mb race the new Bert Dunn prescription 15 on how to operate high-pressure injection?
16 A
I don't know.
17 Q
Have you ever participated in any 18 training program or developments of training 19 programs to teach operators how to respond in the 20 manner prescribed by you on February 16th and by 21 B &W on April 4 th?
22 A
I have participated in a mock instruction 23 of operators at a time frame following March 24 28th, 1979 in which part of the subject matter 4
4 25 dealt with operation under these guidelines.
J r
f n-
.m.
=
1 Dunn 314
(, /
s 2
Q Do you know whether B&W's training 4
3 of operators has been modified as a result of 4
these guidelines?
5 A
I believe it has..
(.,
6 Q
Between the date of the Three Mile 7
Island accident and April 4, 1979, did you have 8
any conversations with Hallman or any represnetative 9
of Hallman's group regarding the Hallman going 10 solid concern?
t 11 A
This was between the time of the Three 12 Mile Island accident and April 4th, 1979?
()
13 Q
Right.
14 A
I don't know.
15 Q
Did you have any discussions with 16 anybody during that period in which the going 17 solid concern was raised?
18 A
I don't know.
19 (Continued on following page.)
20 22 23 n
7-.
T-
be 1
Dunn 315 C\\-
2 Q
Did you hava any discussions in that i
3 time period in which anybody expressed any l
4 reservations about issuing the prescription which
(.
5 you had developed in February 1978?
6 A
I don't know.
7 Q
I don't mean to inhibit your answer by l
8 giving you artificial time constraints that you 9
may have difficulty with.
10 Did you have any --
(
11 MR. FISKE:
Your questions include 12 the meeting that he had with Hallman -- I'm 13 sorry, with Elliott and Taylo[?
14 MR. SELTZER:
Right.
15 MR. FISKE:
They are not limited to 16 conversations outside that?
I 17 MR. SELTZER:
No.
l 18 Q
You understood I was including the 19 Taylor /Elliott conversation, did you no't?
20 A
Yes, I did.
21 Q
At any time after the Three Mile 22 Island accident and for the next two months 23 thereafter, did anybody discuss with you the
('T 24 going solid concern as an impediment to issuing the L J.
25 Bert Dunn prescription for how to handle high-pressure 1
,j
2 1
Dunn 316
?
2 injection?
3 A
Maybe.
4 Q
What does that mean?
5 A
Excuse me.
6 The answer is yes.
i 7
Q Who?
8 A
I don't know that I can respond to the g
question.
10 Q
In what context?
g 11 A
In the context that the subject matter was 12 at least raised in discussions with counsel.
(-)m 13 Q
Do you know who raised the concern about u,
14 going solid?
15 A
Your questians were to the effect that 16 had the subject been raised relative to it-being 17 an impediment to the issuance of my recipe or 18 prescription.
~
19 Q
o.K.
Let me try and clear away some 20 of the dead wood as they say in bowling.
21 I am talking about discussions with 22 you about reservations that are being raised by 23 People for the first time after the Three Mile
(~'
24 Island accidnet; I am not talking about your
\\.
25 learning for the first time about reservations
3 1
Dunn 31-7
/~
2 that had been raised before the Three Mile Island 3
accident.
I am asking you after the accident, 4
a great tragedy on the banks of the Susquehanna,
((
5 B&W is preparing to issue GPU Exhibit 85 so 6
that people will know how to avoid great tragedies 7
like that in the future.
1 8
Did anybody raise with you at that 9
time any reservations about the wisdom of issuing 10 instructions like this because they were concerned t
11 that it would lead to taking the reactor coolant 12 system solid?
g (j
13 MR. FISKE:
Could I
ju'st make a 14 suggestion which might also eliminate some 15 of the other objections to that question.
16 Are you basically asking him whether, 17 during this period of time, March 28th, 18 April 4, while they were in the process of 19 drafting these instructions, was there, 20 did he have any discussions with anybody on I
21 the subject of going solid; is that the l
22 question?
l l
23 MR. SELTZER:
Well,that confines it l
l
/~N 24 more in time period than I want to.
I don't
(_
25 mind taking that as a first time period.
l
.,e,--
,,.r--
4 1
Dunn 318 f
/
2 MR. FISKE:
Mr. Dunn's last answer 3
indicated that he had construed earlier 4
questions in terms of whether the going
({
5 solid concern was an impediment to issuing 6
the instructions which sort of builds a 7
conclusion in the answer, and it seems to 8
me what you are basically trying to find out 9
is were there conversations about 10 whether there is a problem here possibly 11 about going solid.
12 MR. SELTZER:
That's what I am focusing O'V
~
13 on.
14 Q
Was there anybody who, after the 15 accident at Three Mile Island, believed that 16 going solid was an impediment or should be an l
17 impediment to B&W issuing the instructions l
18 in GPU Exhibit 857 l
19 A
At B&W7 l
20 Q
Right.
I 21 A
Not _alative to their basic intent or l
22 purpose.
23 Q
Their basic and what?
24 A
Intent or purpose.
l 25 Q
What was their basic intent or purpose?
l
5 1
Dunn
,339
(~)
l-2 A
To assure that the reactor coolant system was in 3
a sub-cooled state to the best of our capability 4
of measurement prior to terminating high-pressure
(
5 injection.
6 Q
Have you hcard anyone within B&W 7
express the opinion since the accident that they 8
believed B&W should not have issued the Bert Dunn 9
prescription for how to operate high-pressure 10 injection?
11 A
No.
12 Q
Have you talked with Mr. Hallman about
(~h
\\m,/
13 it?
14 A
Yes.
15 Q
Was he in agreement that the Bert 16 Denn prescription should be issued?
17 A
I don't know.
d 18 Q
Did he say anything about his previously 19 expressed concern over going solid?
20 A
Maybe.
l 21 Q
Why do you say that?
22 A
Because at some time Don had indicated to me that 23 he had written, I believe, the August 3rd memo, and
("5 24 I don't recall whether or not he indicated what his L) 25 concerns were.
s.
r y,
6 1
Dunn 320
("-\\s/
2 Q
In that conversation between you 3
and Don, that took place after the Three Mile 4
Island accident, right?
(
5 A
Yes.
6 Q
what was Taylor's contribution to the 7
meeting that you had with him and Norm Elliott which 8
led to drafting GPU Exhibit 85 or the prescription 9
in GPU Exhibit 857 10 A
It was a general comment, con tribu tio n,
11 reviewing the instructions we finally decided 12 to issue and participating in the decision
/~
(_)}
13 to remove the instrument error word [ng in my original 14 draft and use 20 minutes as a delay time as 15 opposed to ten minutes, i
16 Q
Did you have in front of you at the 17 meeting with Taylor and Elliott your February 16 18 memorandum?
i l
19 A
Yes.
l l
20 Q
What, if any, comments did Mr. Taylor i
l 21 make about the fact that you had in front of you 22 this same memorandum that he had received more l
23 than a year earlier?
1 24 A
I don't remember.
I 25 g
Did he display any remorse at not i
7 1
Dunn 321 7~
2 having acted more positively in respond to your 3
February 16 memorandum?
4 MR. FISKE:
I am going to object to
((
5 that question.
I don't mind if you ask him 6
what Mr. Taylor said.
7 Q
Did he say anything which in words 8
or substance conveyed regret over not having 9
taken a more positive action in response to your 10 February 16 memorandum?
g I
11 A
I don't know.
12 Q
Did he say anything to excuse his 13 '
not having taken more positive.acti$n in response
~
14 to your February memoranda?
15 MR. FISKE:
I object to the form of that 16 question.
17 You may answer it.
l 18 A
I don't know.
~
t 19 Q
Did he apologize to you for'not l
20 having taken a more -positive action in response i
l 21 to your February memoranda?
l 22 A
I do not believe so.
23 MR. FISKE:
I would like to note 24 retroactively an objection to the form 25 of the last question which I think is a classic
=L
-.~.
~ _ _
8 1
Dunn 322 (h
2 "Have you stopped bearing your wife?"
3 question.
4 Q
Did you say anything to Mr. Taylor at
(
5 the meeting about the fact that no final action 6
to notify customers had ensued from your 7
February memoranda?
8 A
I don't believe so.
9 Q
Did you not want to hurt his feelings?
10 MR. FISKE:
I object to that question.
11 Q
You may answer.
12 A
No, that tras not a consideration.
/~)
13 Q
Have you ever discussed with Jim Taylor
(_j 14 that he blew it in not taking more positive 15 action in response to your February memoranda?
16 MR. FISKE:
You mean has h'e ever said 17 that to Taylor?
18 MR. SELTZER:
Yes, in words or substance.
19 A
No.
20 Q
Have you ever said to anyone that you 21 think B&W blew it in not responding more km 22 positively to your February memoranda?
i 23 MR. FISKE:
I am going to object to
/"
24 et least the form of that question.
(
25 Q
You may answer.
l 9
1 Dunn 323
-n'-
2 MR. FISKE:
Well, maybe you better 3
characterize what you mean by " blow it" 4
unless you are asking him did he use those
((
5 Precise words.
6 MR. SELTZER:
No, I mean words or 7
substance.
8 MR. FISKE:
I would like to know what 9
you mean on the substance of " blow it,"
10 what " blow it" connotes.
11 Q
B&W made a mistake.
12 Have you ever said to anyone in words 13 or substance,that you believed B&W mIade a mistake 14 in not taking more positive action prior to the 15 Three Mile Island accident to issue the
~
16 Prescriptions contained in your February 16, 1978 17 memorandum?
18 MR. FISKE:
I think I am gding to 19 object to that question, Mr. Seltzer, because, 4
20 again, I think it involves a characterization 21 that we may not all be in complete agreement 22 on on-what you mean by "made a mistake."
23 MR. SELTZER:
I can't be more 24' explicit.
]
25 MR. FISKE:
Mr. Seltzer is asking you
.t,
1 Dunn 324 10 2
whether you ever told anybody that 3
asw made a mistake in not issuing those 4
instructions earlier.
('-
5 I will allow Mr. Dunn to answer 6
the question, if he ever said that to 7
anybody.
O MR. SELTZER:
Yes, in words or 9
substance.
10 MR. FISKE:
The substancp business 11 MR. SELTZER:
I am not requiring that he 12 use the word " mistake."
He might have said n
O 13
" error" 14 MR. FISKE:
This is exactly what I am 15 objecting to because you start getting these 16' synonyms and they have ditferent meanings 17 to different people.
18 MR. SELTZER:
Fine.
Let's' start with 19
" mistake."
~
20 MR. FISKE:
I think what we ought to 21 do is go to lunch and think about this and 22 cool down, because I think you are now going 23 into an area where the words have a very 24 imoortant connotation one way or the other, 25 or may, and I don't think this is an area n
11 1
Dunn 325 O-2 where you can say "Did you ever say anything 3
like this to somebody" or "Did you ever say 4
anything like this in substance" and get an 1
({
5 answer that is going to be useful or valid 6
later on.
7 MR. SELTZER:
I promise that I would 8
ask him what exact words he used.
9 MR. FISKE:
My suggestion is that it is 10 12:35.
I think this is as goo a time as 11 any to break and reflect on this.
12 MR. SELTZER:,Let me get the pre-lunch 13 answer and then --
14 MR. FISKE:
I will not let.him answer 15 the question.
16 Q
Forget the words "or substance."
I will e
i 17 reframe the question.
18 Did you ever indicate to an'yone l
l 19 after the Three Mile Island accident that you i
20 believe Babcock :s Wilcox was in error in not 21 having issued your February 16 prescription to l
22 customers before the Three Mile Island accident?
23 MR. FISKE:
I will object to that, 24 Mr. Seltzer.
)
l 25 MR. SELTZER:
0.K.
.G
12 1
Dunn 326
/
2 MR. FISKE:
I will not let him answer 3
that question unless you are asking him if 4
this is a specific conversation he had and
({
5 what he said.
i 6
MR. SELTZER:
I will certainly ask him 7
that.
First I want to establish a foundation 8
that he hads'uch 'a' convers ation, and then we 9
will get to the conversation.
i 10 MR, -FISKE :
I understand,, but you are 11 asking him to draw some sort of a legal 12 conclusion when you use the words like L
13 mistake or error.
All of those words -- there 14 is the same problem in all of those words.
15
" Blew it* was the wo'rst.
16 MR. SELTZER:
I was trying to use a 17 colloquial' phrase that I think 99 44/100ths 18 of the people in the world understand, but 19 I don't mind rephrasing it to say'"Did you 20 ever indicate that you believed B&W made
.21 an error," if you are more comfortable 22 with my using more formal language, but 23 I am entitled to that answer and I think we
['}
24 can reconvene in the Judge's chambers this
\\/
25 afternoon if you are not going to let
1 13 Dunn 327 -
0 2
the witness answer that question, did he 3
ever indicate to anyone that that was his 4
belief.
((
5 MR. FISKE:
Well, I will object 6
unless you put the question in terms of 7
what did Mr. Dunn say with respect to the 8
non-issuance of these instructions, and t
9 if you want to ask him those questions, who 10 he discussed that with and wha _t he said 11 to them, that's fine.
12 My only concern is that you are building 13 into your questions conclusory' :words~ whfch 14 different people may interpret differently, 15 and I am not in any way preventing you from l
16 going into this area asking Mr. Dunn all 17 the appropriate questions in the world with 18 rerpect to this.
l 19 If you want to ask him with whom he 20 discussed after the accident the fact that 21 instructions had not gone out and what did t
22 he say to them about that fact, fine, I won't 23 have any objections to that, but you put the 24 question in a conclusion rirst, and you put it 25 in a way where the conclusion is one that h
1 p
b_
!l i I
s.
I 1
.l Dunn 328
- _i.
i O'
2
\\different people would construe differently.
I am not~ talking about MR. SELTZER 3
r -
V'
'how 4' would construe it, 'and I am not talking 4
1 i
h hok,Mr.Fiskewouldconstrue (i
6-F about it.
I am
\\
'x
.,l6 Jnot' talking about Low Mr. shapiro, our j
7 cou'rt 'reporta r, would constrtie it.
.I M
e j' ?
i 8
I'ad not even talking \\about how Judge Owen 5
i 9
would construe it.
it
~ ~ 10)
I am talking'about how M,r.
Bert M.
Dunn e
s 11 a
construes it, and I am asking in the sense i
t 12 im$udhich he construes error:
Did he ever
+
(~)
i
\\
Q, 13 indicate to anyone that he believed in the t
14 Isense that Bert M.
Dunn construes the word I.
I f
15'
[
" error" that;B&W had be'n in error in e
16 not issuing to custonors the prescription that
/
17 he had sed forth in his February 16, 1978 r
18 memorandum.
' 19 MR. FISKE:
Well, again, I mean, we 20 are both repeating ourselves, but I have 51 no o.bjection to.him testifying about all of
(
\\
/
1 22,
the conversations that he had with anybody 23 you want to ask,about with respect to the
\\.
24 i
' f act 'that.the instructions had not I
235
.gone out, btt yhen you scart using words
,r
(
'/
l A
, -,3 - '
,. +
' w >
r.-
t._
....a
1 Dunn 329 I
2 like " error, mistake," those all have. legal 3
connotations.
They all have ' conclusions 4
in them that make that question and it seems I
(,
5 to me very inappropriate particularly when 6
you are asking Mr. Dunn not did he use those
/
7 words but did he say something in substance 8
that connoted that impression or did he 9
indicate that impression to somebody.
10 why don't you just ask him about 11 the conversations.
We all know what we 12 are talking about, and you can get the P
J 13 conversations by asking him about the 14 conversations and without putting these 15 conclusory words into it.
It just confuses 16 it and I am perfectly willing to let him i
17 answer all of the questions you want to ask 18 about who he discussed this with'and what 19 he said.
~
l 20 MR. SELTZER:
You just want to take him l
21 to lunch first before you le.t him answer l
22 these.
i 23 MR. FISKE:
No, I will represent to you that 24 I will not even discuss that subject with.him l
25 at lunch, and if you want to do it all now l
s -
I 1
Dunn 330
(~\\
b-2 before lunch, we will do it all right now.
3 MR. SELTZER:
Are you instructing 4
him not to answer the pending question?
(,
5 MR. FISKE:
- Yes, in light of my 6
suggestion of the alternate procedure for 7
getting the information, and I. would at least 8
suggest that you ask him those other I
9 questions first.
10 MR. SELTZER:
I will accept your offer i
11 not to discuss with him this topic over 12 lunch.
13 MR."FISKE:
0.K.
14 MR. SELTZER:
And I will consider 15 over lunch whether I am sufficiently 16 in need of asking it the way I want to ask it.
17 MR. FIRSKE:
Fair enough.
18 MR. SELTZER:
Why don't we go have 19 lunch.
20 (whereupon, at 12:40 o] clock p.m.
a 21 lunch recess was taken.)
22 4
24 25
.ks
1 Dunn 332 Os O.
2 conversations and what was said?
3 MR. FISKE:
Well, maybe you could 4
make it a little clearer.
({
5 Q
on the subject of my last question.
4 6
MR. FISKE:
Well, what conversation, 7
what subject are you asking him?
8 Q
Whether it was a mistake not to issue 9
the February 16, 1978 prescription.
10 Do you understand that?t 11 MR. FISKE:
I am not sure I do.
12 In other words 13 Q
I want to find out what was the first 14 conversation that you had with anybody'in which 15 that subject matter was discussed.
16 MR. FISKE:
How about just so we r
17 don't have any problem with this,at all, l
18 if you ask him about conversations t
19 where the subject matter was the fact that 20
.the instructions had not gone out and ask him 21 the full text of it, you know, the 22 conversation on that subject.
It seems l
l 23 to me that will get everything you want
- ()
24 and everything you are entitled to.
25 MR, SELTZER:
Are you instructing him
- e. 7,
.3
-.------,..,----,-w-,ye,r--
,y--.y.,w.-,vv
--,w-.iw v.
,...-g--,
y,
1 Dunn 333 O
\\ "/ ~
2 not to answer the prior question?
t 3
MR. FISKE:
I think so, in preference 4
to the one -- yes.
Again I invite you to
(
5 ask the other,one.
6 MR. SELTZER:
I think that's very sweet 7
of you to invite me to ask your question, 8
Mr. Fiske, but all I am asking is if you 9
are directing the witness not to answer my 10 question.
t 11 MR. FISKE:
Yes, I am.
12 Just so we don't have a'ny characterizationn O(_)
13 in the question, that's the oily reason.
It 14 has nothing to do with any objection to the 15 conversations themselves.
The only 16 objection-is to the characterization in 17 the question.
18 g
Did you have. conversations after 19 the Three Mile Island accident in which'you said 20 anything to anybody else or anyone else said 21 something to you referring to the failure of B&W 22 to have previously issued your February 16, 1978 23 prescription on termination of high-pressure
[~N 24 injection?
25 MR. FISKE:
My only objection to that A
~
e,
1 Dunn 334
~
\\
2 question is as to the form.
3 You may answer.
4 A
The words "with regard," is that correct?
(
5 Q
Yes.
6 MR. FISKE:
On that subject.
7 A
Yes.
8 Q
Anything that related or referred to.
9 A
Yes.
10 Q
What was the first occasion on which 11 you had any conversation that in any way related 12 or referred to the failure of B&W to have sent 13 out your February 16th, 1978 prescrihtion?
S-8%
14 A
The conversations I recall related to 15 whether or not the instruction or a similar 16 instruction had been issued by B&W, and I may not 17 necessarily pick up the intonation of the word 18
" failure."
19 Q
With whom did you.have that conversation?
20 and when?
21 A
I recall having that conversation or 22 conversations like that with more than one 23 individual but I believe I could only identify 24 Don Hallman as a particular individual.
25 The conversations in question were 9 : -
1 Dunn 335 2
shortly after the accident at Three Mile Island.
3 Q
Were there other people whom you 4
can identify that you believe you had this
({
5 conversation with other than Hallman?
6 MR. FISKE:
Again, I assume by "believe" 7
you mean :ecall?
8 Q
L.s, recall, to any extent, to whatever 9
your recollection is today, even if it is not a 10 crystal clear recollection.
t 11 A
Yes.
12 Q
Who?
b x,,/
13 A
I believe it would involve pr vileged 14 information, conversations with Mr. Edgar.
15 (Continued on next page. )
16 17 18 19 20 22 23
(~'
24 23
pk 1 1
Dunn 336 2
Q Did you have any conversations with 3
anybody else on this subject other than Mr.
o 4
Edgar and Mr. Hallman?
({
5 A
Yes.
6 Q
Who?
7 A
I testified earlier that I cannot recall 8
who the individuals were.
9 Q
Do you have any recollection at all 10 who you believe they were?
11 A
Not that L could term recollection.
12 Q
What would you term it?
13 A
Guessing.
14 Q
These are conversations shortly after 15 the Three Mile Island accident you are referring 16 to?
17 A
Yes.
18 Q
By " shortly after," how soon after l
19 the accident do you mean?
20 A
Within four or five days.
21 Q
Subsequent to five days after the 22 accident, did you have conversations, any I
23 conversation with anyone that related in any way 24 or referred in any way to B&w's not having sent 25 out your February 16, 1978 prescription prior to s
- 2 1
Dunn 337 O)
(_
2 the Three Mile Island accident?
3 A
Y88-4 Q
With whom?
('
5 A
Again I believe that to be privileged.
6 Q
You are still allowed to tell me the 7
name of the person.
8 A
Mr. Edgar, and I don't recall if others 9
were present or if not.
10 Q
What other conversation,with anyone 11 have you had since the accident that related in 12 any way or referred in any way to B&W not having
~
13 sent out your February 1978 prescri% tion prior to 14 the accident?
15 A
A conversation with Mr. Allen Womack.
16 Q
What other conversation ha've you had 17 with anyone since the accident relating or 1
18 referring to B&W's not having sent out the i
19 February prescription prior to the accident?
20 A
Right now I believe the only other 21 conversation that would in any way qualify which 22 I recall would be the one with Bruce Karrasch, I
l 23 which I testified to earlier.
24 Q
Have you ever said any word on the 25 subject of B&W's failure to send out the February l
l
-.4
I 3
1 Dunn 338 k_/
2 prescription prior to the Three Mile Island 3
accident to anybody employed by, associated with 4
or affiliated with the NRC?
({
5 A
Not that I recall at this time.
6 Q
Have you had a conversation on this 7
subject with any utility company employees in 8
other words, I am asking, have you had any words 9
whatsoever with anybody employed by a utility 10 about the fact that B&W had not sent out your t
11 February prescription prior to the accident?
12 A
Yes, I think I. understand the question, but
('_)N 13 it's a long period of time and there were many 14 interactions.
15 I don't believe so.
16 Q
Have you met with utility' company 17 personnel since the accident?
18 A
Yes.
~
19 Q
Have you ever been introduced to any 20 utility company personnel as "This is Bert Dunn, 21 who wrote the February memoranda" or words to that 22 effect?
23 A
I can't recall that occurring.
f 24 Q
Have you ever said anything to any
(
25 social friends about the Three Mile Island
1 Dunn 339 O
\\_
2 accident?
3 A
Yes.
4 Q
Have you ever discussed with them the
.(
5 fact that you had written procedures more than a 6
year before the accident that could have averted 7
the accident?
8 A
Not that I can recall.
9 Q
Where did your conversation with 10 Hallman take place in which you discussed the 11 fact that B&W had not sent out your February 1978 12 prescription before the Three Mile Island accident?
(~N
' _)
13 A
I do n't recall the location. _
(
o 14 Q
How long a conversation was it?
15 A
A few minutes.
16 Q
As best you can recall, what did you 17 say to him and what did Don Hallman say to you?
18 A
In substance, I was asking whether or not 19 the instructions that I issued in -- "issced" is 20 wrong -- wrote, tried to get issued in February 21 had been released to the customers.
22 In substance, the response at that 23 time was that Don wasn't sure one way or the 24 other whether or not such instructions had been 25 released.
i r
-n--
,n-.
5 1
Dunn 340 O-2 Q
What did you respond when ne told you 3
that?
4 A
I don ' t believe I responded with anything.
({
5 Q
From whom-.did you first learn that the 6
instructions had not been released?
7 A.
I don ' t know that I have ever actually 8
learned that in the fashion of a fact.
I have 9
been told that.
10 Q
You have been told thatl 11 A
Yes.
12 Q-My question was, who told you?
O believe would be privileged.
\\_/
13 A
That I 14 Q
Why?
15 A
I was told that in sessions involving 16 preparation for the Kemeny Commission.
17 Q
Was this information imparted to you 18 be a lawyer or '2y a non-lawyer?
~
19 A
By a lawyer.
~
l 20 Q
Th'is is sometime after April 4,
1979:
21 right?
22 A
That is correct.
23 Q
Didn't you know or at least assume
/~h 24 that your February 16, 1978 prescription had not O
25 gone out when you were working with Norm Elliott l
341 i
i Dunn O
(,)
2 and Jim Taylor to draft what was sent out on 3
Aprii 4, 1979 as GPU Exhibit 857 4
A By the tima we were working on that
(
5 instruction, we had been unable to obtain any I
6 evidence or find any individual who indicated 7
that the instruction had gone.out, and I at least 8
operated under the assumption at that time that 9
they had not, or presumption.
10 Q
Have you ever expressed an opinion to g
l 11 anyone about the correctness of B&W's actions 12 in not having apparently sent out your February
("%
e
()
13 1978 prescription to customers?
14 A
No.
15 Q
Have you ever expressed your views 16 or sentiments about B&W's not having or apparently 17 not having sent out your February 1978 18 prescription to customers?
^
19 A
Yes.
20 Q
To whom?
21 A
To Allen Womack and to Jim Taylor.
22 Q
Did you express your views or 23 sentiments to them together or on two separate 24 occasions, two or more separate occasions?
25 A
on separate occasions.
im
7 1
Dunn 342
(
\\_/
2 Q
To whom did you express your views or 3
sentiments first?
4 A
I don't recall.
1
({
5 Q
Taking them in the order in which you 6
listed them, Allen Womack first, what did you 7
say to him and what did he may to you, in words 8
or substance, on this occasion?
9 A
I indicated a regret or that I was sorry 10 that the instructions, which I felt at the time t
11 may have assisted the personnel at Three Mile 12 Island, had apparently not gone out from B&W.
'( )
13 Q
What efse did you say on that subject
~
14.
to Al Womack?
15 A
In terms of my sentiments, I believe that 16 was about all.
~
17 Q
What else on the subject of B&W's 18 not having,apparently not having sent out the 19 February prescription'd'id you say to Al Womack?
20 A
At the time that I indicated those 21 sentiments to Allen, I don't recall whether I said
/
\\m 22 anything else at all.
23 Q
Did you have any other conversation (N
24 with Allen Womack after the accident in which you
()
25 discussed B&W's apparently not having sent out or
~
343 8
1 Dunn
(%
\\-)
2 not having sent out the February prescription?
3 A
Yes.
4 Q
On that occasion what did you say to j{
5 him, in words or subst=.nce?
6 A
on that occasion I showed him my memos.
s 7
Q What did Allen Womack say to you on 8
the first occasion when you were discussing this 9
after the Three Mile Island accident?,
10 A
other thxm describing or telling me that a t
11 meeting that evening would occur between Jim 12 Taylor and Norm Elliott and myself to identify.
O)
(_
13 an instr'uction to prevent it or assi~st in the 14 prevention of a recurrence of a Three Mile Island 15 accident, Allen did ask me if I had any thoughts
~
16 on what such an instruction might look like.
17 Q
What did you tell him in response?
18 A
I asked him to wait a few minutes, and I 19 obtained copies of my February 16th memo and 20 showed them to him.
21 Q
What did he say to you, as best you 22 can recall, when you showed him your February 16th 23 memorandum?
{v~}
24 Let me ask you first, did you also 25 show him your February 9th memorandum on that same s
I
-344 1
Dunn
,O
's-)
2 occasion?
3 A
I am not sure.
4 Q
So you know you showed him the
(
5 February 16th memorandum and you are not sure 6
whether you showed him the February 9th memorandum 7
at the same tima, is that right?
8 A
That's correct.
9 Q
What did Allen Womack say when you 10 showed him the February 16th memorandum and 11 possibly.also the February 9th memorandum?
Did 12 his mouth drop open, did his eyes glaze over?
13 MR. FISKE:
The question is, what did 14 he say, right?
15 MR. SELTZER:
Yes.
16 A
I am not sure.
I do not reca11' exactly 17 what he said.
18 Q
What did he say in substance?
19 A
I think what I recall from the meeting is 20
' highly interpretive and not something I should 21 testify to relative to what he did say in either 22 words or. substance.
23 Q
What do you mean, highly interpretive?
"'N 24 A
A reaction I obtained.
(V 25 Q
That is your reaction to what he said?
345 l
1 Dunn s
\\
2 A
No.
3 Q
What was it a reaction to?
You said 4
"It was the reaction I retained."
(
5 To what were you reacting?
8 A
I was not reacting.
7 Q
What generated your reaction?
8 A-Let us substitute "impressior" for " reaction."
9 Q
What was making an impression on you 10 at that time?
11 A
Allen.
12 Q
What he was saying, what he was
(~)
(_j 13 showirg on his face?
14 A
Together.
15 Q
What impression did what he was saying 16 and what he was showing on his face cr'eate in you?
I 17 MR. FISKE:
I will object to that.
18 MR. SELTZER:
Since he can't remember 19 exactly what the man said in words or l
20 substance, I would now like to find out l
l 21 what impression it created.
(_
j 22 MR. FISKE:
I am not sure that Mr.
23 Dunn said he can't recall what Mr. Womack O,
24 said in substance.
25 MR. SELTZER:
I give him another a-
346 11 1
Dunn
(~/'8
\\~
2 chance.
I thought that was what he had 3
said.
4 BY MR. SELTZER:
(i 5
Q Do you remember, in words or 6
substance, what Allen Womack said when you showed 7
him the February 16th memorandum and possibly 8
also the February 9th memorandum'?
9 A
Not other than what I have already put 10 on the record.
11 Q
What was that?
12 A
That he had asked me -- excuse me, after I x_,.)
13 showed him the memos, that he had idd cated that 14 a meeting following this one between myself and 15 Mr. Taylor and and Mr. Elliott
~
16 Q
I am sorry, I am one piece of l
17 dialogue behind you.
i 18 You meant after you had said that you l
l 19 regretted that the instruction had not gone out i
20 and you were sorry that the company hadn't issued l
21 your prescription, what in words or substance was
(_
22 Mr. or Dr. Allen Womack's response?
23 MR. FISKE:
You can answer that.
24 A
I don't recall his response at that time.
n 25 Q
That's the point at which I asked you
--_7-
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347 12 1_,_
Dunn
\\
2 and you said you had an impression created by 3
his words.and his expression.
4 Since you can't remember exactly what
((
5 his words were or in substance, I would like to 6
know your impression as to what he was saying.
7 MR. FISKE:
I don't think Mr. Dunn 8
should have to answer that question.
You 9
are simply asking him for a characterization, 10 particularly now when he said he can't even 11 remember what was said.
12 MR. SELTZER:
Yes, but he has an
(~)
~~
(_j 13 impression of what was said.
14 MR. FISKE:
Yes.
15 BY MR. SELTZER:
~
16 Q
I would like to have your impression 17 of what was said to you at this very critical 18 point in the history of the world.
19 MR. FISKE:
I think you are 20 overstating it, Mr. Seltzer.
I don't think t
21 that really helps the events that caused it.
22 If you want to ask Mr. Dunn what his 23 recollection is based on, whatever it may 24 be based on, the impression he had or 25 anything else as long as it is a O
f
348 1
Dunn O
2 recollection of what Dr. Womack said, I 3
don,'t have any problem with'it, but if you 4
are just asking him for a general
({
5 impression of what Dr. Womack's reaction 6
was, then I think that's something 7
different and I think he should answer, and 8
I encourage him to answer, if he has any kind 9
of a recollection as to what Womack said.
10 BY MR. SELTZER:
g 11 Q
What was the import of what he was 12 saying, what was the general tone of what he was 13 saying, if you can't recall the exa$t words he 14 was using?
15 You had just finished saying that you l
16 are sorry the company didn't issue the 17 prescription.
What was the tone and the import 18 of what Allen Womack's response was to'that?
l 19 A
I do not recall.
20 Q
Did he agree with you that it was 21 regrett able?
22 A
I do not recall.
23 Q
Did he tell you, "Oh, don't be so 24 sentimental about it"?
25 A
No.
l
.w
-. - ~ -.
i.
1 Dunn 349 L-2 Q
Did he say, "Oh, it's only a nuclear 3
Plant"?
4 MR. FISKE:
I am going to object to
(,
5 this.
I don't think your being sarcastic 6
helps.
4 7
Q Did he say that?
8 MR. FISKE:
You can answer the 9
question, Mr..Dunn.
10 A
No.
11 Q
As you sit here, you do have an 12 impression of what he said, though, or what his
()
13 reaction was to your statement of rigret, is that s
14 right?
15 A
No.
i
~
16 Q
What was it that you had an inpression l
l 17 of when you testified seven or eight minutes ago 18 that you had an impression created by Allen 19 womack's words and facial expression?
20 A
Allen's reaction at the time I showed him 21 my memos.
22 Q
What was his reaction?
23 MR. FISKE:
Well, I think we ought to 24 exhaust -- that's fine as long as that's O
l 25 directed at what Dr. Womack said.
l L--
l
~ >L
1 Dunn 350
('N
^
2 MR. SELTZER:
I did.
3 MR. FISKE:
In words or substance, 4
import, that's fine.
(
MR. SELTZER:
Actions.
5 6
BY MR. SELTZER:
1 7
Q What was Dr. Allen Womack's reaction 8
to seeing your memo?
9 MR. FISKE:
I will object to the form 10 of the question and let you answer it with 11 that objection as long as the answer is 12 based on what Dr. Womack said.
13 A
I can't base or be sure I am basing the 14 answer on what he said.
15 Q
What do you recall of Dr. Womack's I
16 response to seeing your memorandum?
17 MR. FISKE:
I will just note the same 18 objection to the form.
19 MR. SELTZER:
All right.
You objected l
20 to form.
21 Q
You may answer.
22 A
That I felt he was surprised.
23 Q
How did he evidence that surprise?
24 A
I don't recall at this time.
25 Q
You testified at page 86 of the NRC
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2 Special Inquiry deposition to actions and 3
conversations on the day of the accident, and at 4
line 21 you said --
({,
5 MR. FISKE:
One second while I get it.
~
6 MR. SELTEER:
Page 86, line 21.
7 MR. FISKE:
0.K.
t-8 Q
You said, "In about that same time 9
frame Allen came back and said ' Hey, the NRC is 10 going to call.
They want to know what we can do 11 to prevent this from happening to any other plant.'"
12 Do you see that?
13 A
Yes.
14 Q
"And I handed him the February 16th 15 memorandum and said, 'That's what you do.'"
~
16 Did you give that testimony in a 17 deposition taken by the NRC Special Inquiry?
18 A
Yes.
19 Q
Is it at the point after you handed 20 Allen Womack your February 16th memorandum and 21 said to him "That's what you do" that he registered 22 surprise?
23 A
Yes.
{~
24 Q
Did you have any reason to believe v
25 that he had seen the February 16th memorandum
-I
1 Dunn 352
("%
n 2
before that moment?
3 A
No.,
4 Q
Did you conclude from his reaction
(
5 that he had doc. previously seem the February 6
16th memorandum?
7 MR. FISKE:
Well, I will object to 8
that.
We are back to Reggie Jackson.
9 MR. SELTZER:
I think so.
10 MR. FISKE:
I will object to the form.
i 11 Go ahead, Mr. Dunn.
12 A
I don't know.
l l
l' (m,
13 Q
Did he say anything to you which you 14 understood to mean that he had not previously 15 seen your February 16th memorandum?
16 A
I don't recall.
l 17 (Recess taken.)
~
18 (Continued on next page.) -
19 20 k.
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1 Dunn 353
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4 2
BY MR. SELTZER:
3 Q.
After the second conversation that 4
you had with Allen Womack regarding B&W's not
)
(
5 having sent out your February prescription, did 6
you have any other conversation with Allen Womack 7
about B&W not having sent out the February 8
prescription?
9 A
At this time I don't recall one way or the 10 other.
11 Q
Was your February prescription or 12 the subsequent issuance of instructions to 0
(_)
13 operating utilitids af,ter the Three' Mile Island
~
14.
accident discussed at any of the Design Section 15 staff meetings after the accident?
16 A
Not that I recall.
i 17 Q
You said that you had a conversation 18 or more than one conversation perhaps with Jim 19 Taylor after the accident regarding the fact that 20 B&W had apparently not sent out your February 21 prescription until after the Three Mile Island 22 accident.
23 Where did that conversation take 24 place?
25 A
I said that I had had a conversation with
1 Dunn 354 A
2 Mr. Taylor in which I indicated my feelings about 3
saw's apparently not sending out the February 6th 4
instructions.
((
5 Q
Where did that conversation take 6
place?
7, A
I don't recall.
8 Q
Was anyone else present?
9 A
I do not believe so.
10 Q
How long a conversation was that?
11 A
A few minutes.
12 Q
As best you can recall, what did (h
- to him?
~.
(./
13 you say 14 A
Very much the same thing I had said to 15 Allen, a feeling of regret that the instructions 16 had not gotten issued, being sorry that they had 17 not been issued.
t 18 Q
Did you say anything else to him 19 about your views, your feelings on the-20 instructions not having been issued?
21 A
Not that I can recall.
22 Q
Did you say anything else to him 23 that related or referred to the instructions not
[~'{
24 having been issued?
%d 25 A
Not in that conversation.
F
1 Dunn 355 O)
(_
2 Q
Did you at a subsequent conversation?
3 A
I.think the only subsequent conversations 4
Jim Taylor and myself had on the subject were
((,
5 again in preparation for.the depositions given 6
to the Kemeny Commission.
7 Q
These were conversations that you 8
and he were having with each other?
9 A
In the presence of counsel.
10 Q
Were you engaging in he. conversation 11 on this. subject with Jim Taylor in order to secure 12 advice from counsel?
In other words, was the
(
13 purpose of the conversation to obtain advice from 14 counsel?
15 MR. FISKE:
Well, I am not sure that 16 the issue is that narrow, Mr. Seltzer.
l l
17 MR. SELTZER:
No, that's just the 18 start.
I am not saying that that is 19 dispositive.
20 A
I don't know whether that would be the 21 way to phrase it or not.
22 Q
What did you understand was the 23 purpose of the conversation?
24 A
Preparation for the depositions and 25 hearing of the Kemeny Commission.
l
1 Dunn 356 0
2 Q
Was counsel participating in the 3
discussio.n that you were having or just listening 4
to it?-
l>
5 A
Participating.
~
6 Q
In the first conversation that you 7
had with Taylor where counsel was not present 8
and I am referring to the first conversation after 9
the accident where you discussed your feelings 10 with B&W not having sent out the instruction, 11 you expressed regret and sorrow.
12 What was, Jim Taylor's response in
(~)
\\ms/
13
_ words or sub' stance?
14 A
I do not recall.
15 Q
Did his response make any impression 16 on you?
17 A
Not that I can recall.
18 Q
Within.the first four to~five days 19 after the accident, you said that you had 20 discussed the apparent failure of B&W to send out 21 the February prescription with Hallman and with 22 others but you couldn't remember specifically who 23 the others were.
24 What is your best recollection about
(
25 what you said to any of these others?
J
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! A I was acking whe.ther;or not the instructions
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that,I'had" written-itM the February 16th memo had 4 ' yl
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Is that how you determined that A
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8 t
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Q In'the aftermath,of the Three Mile p
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//: island accident, has.-anyone n,v*r to}d you that i
l 10
/
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11 thcy had read your February 6th and 16th memoranda
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4 bat frar:kly' didn ' t understand \\what you were 12 A
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' 'r t,alking'about in those memoranda?'
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_s 15 1/ MR.
FISKE:
O.K.
24 25
- /
jMR. SELTOER:
I don't agree with it,
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1 29 Dunn O
2 but I understand.
3 Q -
When you said "with our present 4
attitude," what present attitude were you referring
(
5 to?
6 MR. FISKE:
The same question or 7
the same objection, the same principle.
8 MR. SELTZER:
The same instruction?
9 MR. FISKE:
Yes.
10 MR. SELTZER:
You are instructing him 11 not to answer that question?
12 MR. FISKE:
Yes, the same grounds.
ibstru'cting him
(_/
13 MR. SELTZER:
You are
[4 not to answer the question?
15 MR. FISKE:
Yes.
16 BY MR. SELTZER:
17 Q
You said that "I believe a fundamental 18 change in approach is needed," at the bottom of 19 page 1.
20 Do you see that?
A Yes.
21 33 Q
What was the fundamental change in 23 approach that you were referring to?
24 MR. FISKE:
The same instruction.
25 Q
Did you ever have any conversations
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30 Dunn bi V
2 with Alan Womack regarding the contents of GPU 6
3 Exhibit 12 marked for identification?
4 A
Not that I recall.
\\
- (
5 Q
Would it surprise you that Alan p
6 Womack testified that he had conversation with 7
vou regarding the contents of this?
8 A
No.
9 MR. SELTZER:
Off the record.
10 (Discussion off the record.)
11 MR. SELTZER:
Why don't we resume next 12 Thursday morning at 9:30 a.m.'to be continue on Friday and on the succeedi$g Monday.
13 14 MR. FISKE: Off the record.
15 (Discussion off the reocrd.)
16 MR. SELTZER:
The witness is available 17 also the succeeding Tuesday if we need that 18 to finish the deposition.
19 MR. FISKE:
Yes.
I will talk to him 20 and I will call you Monday and if he 91 decides, if it's for real that we would k.
22 finish in three days, Wednesday, Thursday 23 and Friday, if he opts for that rather than,
)
24 you know, running the risk of four days and 25 he is ready to give up the Wednesday in the
387 31 Dunn e
2 office we may take you up on that but 3
lit.erally he told me that's the only 4
day he will have in his office in the last
(',
5 two and a hr.lf weeks.
If he came back here a
6 Wednesday because he has this other personal 7
business on Monday.
i 8
MR. SELTZER:
Off the record.
9 (Discussion off the record.)
10 MR. SELTZER:
We are ad ourning for the 11 day.
12 (Time noted:
'4:30 p.m.)
O 13 14
}& flff A$W 15 16 Subscribed and sworn to before me this_3,9_dayof__k_
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pk i\\M CERTIFICATE 2
STATE OF NEW. YORK
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3
- ss.:
COUNTY OF NEW YORK
)
4
['
I, CHARLES SHAPIRO, C.S.R.
, a Notary p N..-
5 Public of the State of New York, do hereby certify that the continued deposition of 7
T T
N was taken before 8
me on FRIDAY, MARCH 13, 1981 consisting 262 of pages through 382 t.
I further certify that the witness had been previously sworn and that the within s.)
transcript is a true record of sdid testimony; 13 That I am not connected by blood or marriage with any of the said parties nor interested directly or indirectly 1Il the matter in controversy, nor am I in the employ of any of the counsel.
18 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my 10 hand this~O h day of MASCH
, l$
20 21 J
22 dd 23 CHARLES SHAPIRO, T.S.R.
24 25
389 O.
~
IN DEX 4
WITNESS PAGE 3
- 5,
,~,
(res ume d) 264 Bert Merrit Dunn
..?-
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...7 D id,$ff
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'1,'."
r-GPU FOR IDENTIFICATION 81
' Memo from Eric Swanton go Bert Dunn and others dat~ed November 22, 1978, subject Toledo Edison Company Pressurizer Level Meeting 279 C
N 82 Memorandum from L.
R.
Cartin I
to Bruce Karrasch with a copf to Bert Dunn dated November 29, 1978, subject Toledo Edison -
B&W Meeting Minutes 282 82 Memo dated February 6, 1979 from Womack to Cartin, with an attached letter from the NRC to Taylor 294 84 Memo from Willse to Distribution dated March 9,~
1979, subject:
Loss of Pressurizer Level Indication 295 t
85 Memo from Fairburn to
(~
Distribution, April 4,
- 1979, Supplementary Operating Instructions for High Pressure Injection System 304 I
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