ML20055F620
| ML20055F620 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 07/23/2019 |
| From: | Justin Poole Plant Licensing Branch 1 |
| To: | |
| Poole J, NRR/DORL/LPLI, 301-415-2048 | |
| References | |
| NRC-0467 | |
| Download: ML20055F620 (115) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
Three Mile Island Unit 1 Post-Shutdown Decommissioning Activities Report (PSDAR)
Public Meeting Docket Number:
(n/a)
Location:
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Date:
Tuesday, July 23, 2019 Work Order No.:
NRC-0467 Pages 1-114 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
+ + + + +
3 THREE MILE ISLAND UNIT 1 4
POST-SHUTDOWN DECOMMISSIONING ACTIVITIES REPORT 5
(PSDAR) PUBLIC MEETING 6
+ + + + +
7
- TUESDAY, 8
JULY 23, 2019 9
+ + + + +
10 HARRISBURG, PENNSYLVANIA 11
+ + + + +
12 The public meeting occurred at the 13 Sheraton Harrisburg Hershey Hotel, located at 4650 14 Lindle Road, at 6:00 p.m., Brett Klukan, Meeting 15 Facilitator, presiding.
16 17 NRC STAFF:
18 BRETT KLUKAN, Meeting Facilitator 19 KIM CONWAY 20 JIM DANNA 21 ANTHONY DIMITRIADIS 22 STEVE HAMMAN 23 ZACK HOLLCRAFT 24 JUSTIN POOLE 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2 BILL RAUTZEN 1
EMIL TABAKOB 4
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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3 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 1
Introductions..................
4 2
PSDAR - Decommissioning Strategy, PSDAR 3
Purpose, and Review Milestones 9
4 PSDAR Review Process
.............. 14 5
Ground Rules
.................. 19 6
Public Comments................. 20 7
Closing Remarks................
112 8
Adjourn....................
114 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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4 P R O C E E D I N G S 1
6:01 p.m.
2 MR. WATSON: Good evening, and welcome to 3
our meeting. And I thank you for attending, taking 4
out from your busy lives to attend this public 5
meeting. My name is Bruce Watson. I'm chief of the 6
Reactor Decommissioning Branch, and I work in the NRC 7
headquarters in Rockville, Maryland.
8 Tonight we're here to discuss the TMI Unit 9
1 Post-Shutdown Decommissioning Activities Report, and 10 that is the sole purpose of our meeting tonight. Go 11 to the next slide. This is an NRC Category 3 meeting 12 to hear your comments and if we can answer any 13 questions that the staff could answer on the PSDAR 14 tonight.
15 So as far as meeting safety procedures, we 16 have the doors in the back and the one in the front.
17 Please use the ones in the back to exit appropriately 18 safely as, say, if we had the fire alarm or whatever.
19 That's pretty much the only real safety issue we have 20 here.
21 I'd like to introduce the NRC staff to you 22 with the NRC staff that's here like to introduce 23 themselves. First, we have Steve Hamman on my right.
24 He's a senior inspector and he will be inspecting TMI-25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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5 1
after it enters decommissioning.
He's a
1 decommissioning inspector out of our Region I 2
headquarters.
3 Next to him is Justin Poole. He's a 4
project manager who's responsible for the licensing 5
activities of the plant right now. Eventually when 6
the plant shuts down and reaches a point where we 7
issue the defueled technical specifications, the plant 8
will be transferred to my branch in the Office of 9
Nuclear Safety and Safeguards and enter into the 10 decommissioning arena.
11 And then Kim Conway who's over here will 12 become the project manager. So we have a transition 13 phase that we will go through within the NRC and the 14 plant transitions of the decommissioning.
15 With that, I'd like to turn it over to the 16 NRC staff that would like to be recognized.
17 MR. DANNA: I'm Jim Danna. I'm the branch 18 chief for Region 1 licensing at headquarters.
19 MR. TURTIL: My name is Richard Turtil.
20 I'm a senior financial analyst at NRC headquarters in 21 Rockville.
22 MR. RAUTZEN: My name is Bill Rautzen.
23 I'm a technical reviewer in the environmental review 24 branch at headquarters in Rockville.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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6 MR. RIKHOFF: Jeff Rikhoff. I'm also an 1
environmental reviewer at headquarters.
2 MR. TABAKOB: I'm Emil Tabakob. I'm a 3
financial analyst at NRC headquarters at Rockville.
4 MR. HOLLCRAFT: Zack Hollcraft. I'm the 5
senior resident inspector currently on site.
6 MR. WATSON: We're going to conduct a 7
number of short presentations because we want to get 8
on to your comments. At that point, we'll turn the 9
meeting over the Brett Klukan who is our facilitator.
10 Brett is also from Region I. He's General Counsel for 11 the Region I office. And so after that we will go 12 over the ground rules for the meeting and then we'll 13 begin receiving comments from the public. We plan to 14 close the meeting at 9:00 o'clock is when it's 15 scheduled. Next slide, please.
16 I just want to let everybody know that the 17 NRC has a lot of experience in the decommissioning 18 area. We have overseen the decommissioning in over 80 19 sites in the country since 1997. This is when our 20 current decommissioning rules went into effect. This 21 includes ten power reactors that have completed 22 decommissioning and had their licenses terminated.
23 We also expect to be terminating four 24 licenses over the terms of either the end of this year 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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7 or into next year. And those four plants will be 1
Humboldt Bay out of California, La Crosse in 2
Wisconsin, and Zion 1 and 2 in Illinois. I want 3
everybody to know that all those sites have been 4
released for unrestricted use.
5 In other words, the sites have been 6
cleaned up so the land can be used for whatever 7
purpose the landowner wants to use it for. There are 8
no restrictions on it from the NRC's perspective. So 9
the owner can sell the land, continue to use the land 10 without any NRC oversight of that land. We will be --
11 basically, we're out of the business then. Next 12 slide, please.
13 I also wanted to point out that there have 14 been some successful decommissionings in the state of 15 Pennsylvania.
The Saxton Power Plant was 16 decommissioned. The license was terminated in 2005.
17 On your right top, there's the B&W Parks Township 18 site. It was decontaminated and as well remediated 19 and the license was terminated in 2004. On the bottom 20 of the B&W Apollo site. This site was cleaned up and 21 the license was terminated in 1997. So there's 22 significant decommissioning work in Pennsylvania.
23 Next slide, please.
24 It's a picture of the Zion Unit 1 and 2 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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8 plants. Up in the left is the picture of the two 1
plants when the plant shut down. On the right is 2
what's left is the two containments which are being 3
demolished in 2018. And on the bottom is a picture 4
taken this past April where you can see the 5
containment buildings have been demolished and they're 6
in the process of removing the final bit of concrete 7
debris as we speak today. Also on the site is the 8
onsite dry fuel storage facility. And it's up in the 9
right-hand corner of the picture. Next slide, please.
10 I want you to realize that there are three 11 decommissioning options offered by the NRC. The first 12 is DECON as we call it. In this case, the plant is 13 promptly decommissioned. The equipment, structure, et 14 cetera are removed and decontaminated that allows a 15 radiological release.
16 The second option is for SAFSTOR. Plants 17 are placed in a safe and stable condition and 18 maintained in that state until they are subsequently 19 decontaminated to levels that permit a radiological 20 release in the course of the license termination.
21 Just as a matter of example for you, we have 11 plants 22 that are being actively decommissioned in the U.S. and 23 we have 11 plants that are in SAFSTOR. TMI Unit 1 24 will become the twelfth that will enter SAFSTOR.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 One of our rules are that the decommission 1
is that for decommissioning is that the 2
decommissioning must be completed within 60 years. So 3
with that, I will turn it over to Steve. And he will 4
talk a little bit about the Unit 1 PSDAR.
5 MR. HAMMAN: Okay. The Unit 1 PSDAR which 6
they said they were going to shut down by September 7
30th. Once they shut down, they will take all the 8
fuel out of the reactor and put it in their spent fuel 9
pool. It'll stay in the spent fuel pool until they 10 have their independent spent fuel storage installation 11 built and ready to go. And at that point, they'll 12 start transferring fuel from the spent fuel pool into 13 dry cask storage.
14 And the timeline they gave us was by the 15 end of 2022, they think they'll have all their fuel 16 into the dry storage once the fuel is in dry storage.
17 And they will go into the SAFSTOR mode. And they plan 18 on staying in SAFSTOR until 2079. Bruce just 19 described the options that would give them, and the 20 SAFSTOR is one where they can just keep everything in 21 a safe, stable condition until they're ready to do the 22 DECON option. And then in 2073, they'll begin doing 23 the radiological decommissioning of the site and 24 terminate the license by 2079. Next slide, please.
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10 Okay. NRC oversight, when they shut down, 1
we still continue doing inspections. It's not like 2
even though we might not have a resident inspector 3
assigned there permanently, still we do inspections 4
of all the licensed activities, all the operations.
5 There will be a resident inspector who 6
stays on site when they initially shut down. The time 7
is a little indeterminate. It could be anywhere up to 8
six months that we'd keep a resident inspector on 9
site. And once the resident inspector is no longer on 10 site, we'll still continue to do regular inspections 11 of their activities. Next slide, please.
12 Tony Dimitriadis is not yet here. So I'm 13 filling in for Tony which is why I'm up here. Next 14 slide. Okay. Inspections are performed in accordance 15 with Manual Chapter 2561. That is the Decommissioning 16 Power Reactor Inspection program. This inspection 17 program starts as soon as the licensee certifies that 18 all the fuel is out of the reactor.
19 The program has core inspections that are 20 performed at least once per year. And they also have 21 discretionary inspections that can be performed as 22 needed. Security and emergency training inspections 23 are still performed under the decommissioning 24 inspection program. The frequency of inspections is 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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11 dependent on what activities are taking place on site.
1 And that's usually related to what phase of 2
decommissioning they're in.
3 For instance, if they're in active 4
decommissioning, we'll be there quite more often than 5
if they're in SAFSTOR. SAFSTOR where there's no 6
activity going on, we're not there quite as much. And 7
all inspections are performed by the Region I office 8
and by decommission inspectors.
And they're 9
supplemented by specialist inspectors as we need them.
10 Next slide, please.
11 Okay. We've mentioned the spent fuel 12 storage. Currently, TMI has all their spent fuel 13 stored in their spent fuel pool. But the PSDAR states 14 that they're going to start moving fuel into the dry 15 cask storage starting in 2021.
16 Again, we perform inspections of the spent 17 fuel storage. The first inspections will be any kind 18 of construction activities that take place on site.
19 If they're building a concrete pad, if they're putting 20 in a new crane or if they're upgrading their crane, if 21 they're fabricating the modules, we'll do inspections 22 of all those.
23 Once that's done, before they're allowed 24 to start putting fuel onto an ISFSI, they have to do 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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12 a series of dry runs, pre-operational activities. And 1
basically we come out. We watch them do their dry run 2
to make sure that they're ready to go. Once that's 3
done, we will be there to inspect the first time they 4
actually do an initial loading in the dry cask 5
storage. After that, we then inspect on a regular 6
basis their dry cask storage.
7 MR. POOLE: Next slide, please. Good 8
evening. My name is Justin Poole. As you heard 9
before, I'm the project manager in the Division of 10 Operating Reactor Licensing in the Office of Nuclear 11 Reactor Regulation at the NRC. And I'm located in 12 Rockville, Maryland headquarters. Next -- yeah, next 13 slide.
14 So in accordance with the NRC 15 requirements, the Post-Shutdown Decommissioning 16 Activities Report, the PSDAR, must be submitted to the 17 NRC and a copy to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania 18 prior to or within two years following the permanent 19 succession of operations.
20 Exelon submitted the Three Mile Island 21 Unit 1 PSDAR on April 5th of this year. The PSDAR 22 must contain a
description of the planned 23 decommissioning activities along with a schedule for 24 their accomplishments and a
site-specific 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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13 decommissioning cost estimate including the projected 1
cost of managing irradiated fuel.
2 Exelon shall not perform any major 3
decommissioning activities until after Three Mile 4
Island Unit 1 notifies the NRC that operations have 5
permanently ceased and Exelon has permanently removed 6
fuel from the Three Mile Island Unit 1 reactor vessel 7
and after the NRC has received the PSDAR.
8 Decommission activities must not endanger 9
the public health or result in significant 10 environmental impacts not previously reviewed. The 11 PSDAR must contain the information required by the 12 regulations. The NRC staff as well as licensees use 13 the regulatory guide pictured above that provides 14 guidance on content and format. The regulatory guide 15 is available to the public in our document collection 16 system known as ADAMS and can be found Accession No.
17 ML13140, alpha, 038. Next slide, please.
18 Upon receiving the PSDAR, the NRC review 19 consists of reviewing the proposed strategy and 20
- schedule, reviewing the funding plans for 21 decommissioning and spent fuel management, and the 22 environmental review for decommissioning the site.
23 Next slide, please.
24 The PSDAR must contain the licensee's 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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14 discussion that provides the reasons for concluding 1
that the environmental impacts associated with the 2
site-specific decommissioning activities are bounded 3
by previously issued environmental impact statements.
4 To review the PSDAR, the NRC staff uses two staff 5
reports called NUREGs to consider generic 6
environmental impacts and site specific issues and 7
changes not addressed in prior environmental impact 8
statements. In addition, the NRC would rely on the 9
inspections program. Next slide, please.
10 During the NRC staff's review, if needed, 11 we will notify the licensee if additional information 12 is required to complete our review. Should the staff 13 find that the PSDAR meets the regulations, the NRC 14 will document its review of the PSDAR and a letter to 15 the licensee. And that letter will address the 16 comments received during the comment period. And the 17 next slide will talk more on how comments will be 18 received.
19 The licensee shall notify the NRC in 20 writing and send a copy to the Commonwealth of 21 Pennsylvania before performing any decommissioning 22 activities inconsistent with or making a significant 23 schedule change from those actions and schedules 24 described in the PSDAR. Next slide, please.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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15 So for obtaining comments from the public 1
on the PSDAR. There are multiple ways someone can 2
submit comments on the Three Mile Island Unit 1 PSDAR.
3 The first is here tonight at this public meeting.
4 It's being transcribed, so any comments received will 5
go on the record.
6 Second is by mail, and the address to send 7
it to can be found here on the slide. Third is by 8
going to the U.S.
federal rulemaking
- site, 9
www.regulations.gov, and search for the docket number 10 seen on the slide above or seen on the slide. All 11 comments received via mail or on the website need to 12 be received by October 9th of this year.
13 I'll now turn the presentation back over 14 to Bruce to close out the prepared presentation.
15 MR. WATSON: Thank you, Justin. And thank 16 you, everybody, for showing up again tonight. We are 17 here to listen to your comments on the Three Mile 18 Island Unit 1 PSDAR. I want to remind everybody that 19 the meeting is being transcribed. We have a court 20 reporter over here. And so actually the transcription 21 will be made publically available. We'll also be 22 publishing a meeting summary, and it will also be 23 publically available. As I said, the NRC staff, we'll 24 do our best to answer your questions.
25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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16 MR. KLUKAN: So at this time -- hi, 1
everyone. Again, my name is Brett Klukan. I'm the 2
meeting facilitator. Sorry. I was just making sure 3
I understand the comment there.
4 Before we begin the public comment 5
portion, usually we like to give elective officials or 6
any representatives of elective officials an 7
opportunity at this juncture to stand and be 8
recognized and to give any prepared remarks. Are 9
there any such elected officials or representatives 10 thereof in the audience with us this evening?
11 Here, I'll bring you the microphone.
12 (Off-microphone comments.)
13 MR. KLUKAN: Well, I appreciate your 14 comment, but I'm going to continue. So are you an 15 elected official?
16 REP. MEHAFFIE: Thank you. Good evening.
17 I'm State Representative Tom Mehaffie. I am the 18 sponsor of House Bill 11 to try to save Three Mile 19 Island. Unfortunately, that bill did not pass. And 20 unfortunately, we didn't get it done. As many of you 21 know, if you did see that the state of Ohio today 22 passed legislation to save their two plants. Kudos to 23 them.
24 It's something that should've been done 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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17 here in Pennsylvania. Unfortunately, we have to go 1
through the decommissioning of the Three Mile Island 2
and a lot of jobs are going to be lost. And 3
unfortunately a lot of families are going to be 4
displaced and moved throughout the country where 5
they're going to find work in their profession.
6 At this point in time, though, it's my 7
concern and I see representation from Senator Palmer's 8
officer here. We want to make sure that this is done 9
correctly and the company that comes in and does the 10 decommissioning is doing it the right way.
11 I know there's only so many throughout 12 this state or throughout the country that do this kind 13 of work. And we just want to make sure it's done 14 professionally and done the right way. So thank you 15 for your time and appreciate you guys being here to do 16 this public meeting.
17 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. Anyone else, 18 other elected officials or representatives? You can 19 just stand and be recognized. You don't need to give 20 prepared remarks. Anyone else? All right. We will 21 get underway with the public comment portion then.
22 So just a couple little reminders before 23 we get into it. I won't take up too much time here is 24 that again please silence your cell phones because 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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18 they will be picked up by not only the court reporter 1
but the various other news outlets in the room with us 2
this evening. So please do that. Don't worry. It's 3
happened to me before in the past as well.
4 There's drinking water in the back. You 5
can avail yourself of it. And then I would ask if you 6
are going to submit something to the NRC. Let's say 7
you want to hand them a document, testimony, please 8
hand it to me. I'd like generally to keep this one 9
area clear so we don't have people milling about up 10 here. So when it's your turn to speak, I'll ask you 11 to queue up to the microphone. And at that point, if 12 you have something to hand to the NRC, just hand it to 13 me and I'll hand it to them. Okay? All right.
14 Once again, so this is the third time that 15 you're going to be reminded that the meeting is being 16 recorded tonight. I'm going to add to that is that 17 for the sake of our court reporter whose job is not 18 easy as it is given the amount of acronyms and other 19 technical jargon we use. Please spell your name when 20 it is your turn to speak. So get up and say, hello, 21 my name is Brett Klukan, K-L-U-K-A-N. And then once 22 you've done that, then I'll start the speaker clock 23 which I'll explain here in a moment.
24 So before I get into that, just some basic 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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19 ground rules, and I announce these at every meeting I 1
facilitate. I have no expectations that there will be 2
any outbursts tonight or any threatening gestures or 3
anything like that. But let me be very clear on this 4
point. Threatening gestures or statements, anything 5
indicating a likelihood of violence or anything like 6
that will be cause for an immediate ejection from the 7
meeting room by the local law enforcement officer we 8
have in attendance throughout this evening.
9 In terms of general disruptions, I usually 10 go by a three strikes rule. So by the third instance 11 in which you disrupted a member of the public when it 12 is their turn to speak, I will ask you to leave the 13 room. I've never had to do that. I hope tonight is 14 not the first night that I have to do that. Let's try 15 to be civil to each other.
16 I respect that many of you in this room 17 have views which may be opposed to one another. But 18 out of the spirit of respect for one another, there'd 19 be -- respect each other's speaking time at the 20 microphone. Okay.
21 So how are speakers going to be called?
22 If you did not already, there was a signup sheet 23 outside the room. It looks like we have 11 people 24 signed up to speak. Now just so I can get a sense of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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20 how many people want to speak tonight, just so I can 1
make sure that everyone who would like to speak gets 2
an opportunity to do so, how many want to speak now 3
having heard the NRC's presentation but who did not 4
already sign up to do so? Does that make sues what I 5
just said? So if your name isn't on this list but you 6
think you want to speak, please raise your hand right 7
now. So maybe one more. So we might have 12 people.
8 Okay. I am probably going to stick then 9
to the three minute speaking time with an opportunity 10 to provide people a second round opportunity at the 11 microphone. The reason being is that I expect there's 12 going to be a lot of technical questions for the NRC 13 staff tonight. I'm going to allot time and 14 opportunity for them to respond to your questions.
15 MR. PORTZLINE: May I comment on that?
16 Three minutes is -- my name is Scott Portzline and I'm 17 from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania associated with Three 18 Mile Island. Even for the first round that somebody 19 would like to speak three minutes is unreasonably 20 short. Especially if there's a simple question that 21 requires a complex answer, there may be no time for 22 follow up. So I suggest at least doubling that.
23 And then the second comment that I have if 24 we could have Mary Stamos Osborn speak first because 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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21 of her health condition. If that's been arranged, I'm 1
sorry.
2 MR. KLUKAN: It's okay.
3 MR. PORTZLINE: I'd appreciate that. Or 4
we would appreciate that.
5 MR. KLUKAN: So that was what -- when I 6
paused there, when they were explaining the comments 7
to me, that's where I was -- so yeah, that's fine.
8 Everyone, I think we can accommodate all speakers 9
tonight assuming people take their speaking time. So 10 how about this. If we have ten people, that gives us 11 about an hour assuming everyone sticks to their time.
12 All right. So that's 72 minutes.
13 Let's do that. Okay? But I'm going to 14 hold you to those six minutes. Okay? So when those 15 six minutes are up and this things dings, and it will 16 ding, that's it. You say thank you. If you have 17 additional comments, you can provide them in a written 18 format to the NRC staff or go on regulations.gov 19 afterwards.
20 However, here's what I'm going to say.
21 There's one caveat with this. If you pause because 22 the NRC has started to respond to your question, I 23 will pause the clock for that. So I will pause the 24 clock if the NRC staff is talking. However, if you 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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22 are talking, the clock runs. Does that make sense to 1
everyone? Can I get some nods? I want to make sure 2
just so people understand they don't feel like they're 3
being treated unfairly.
4 MR. PORTZLINE: Well, grounds rules are 5
important and this is a Category 3 meeting. And by 6
definition, that makes that the public can participate 7
and speak throughout the meeting as they see fit. Now 8
I do recommend that everybody adhere to a six-minute 9
time limit. But to strictly enforce that and say that 10 somebody is out of order would be the Nuclear 11 Regulatory Commission being out of order.
12 So if it's a Category 3 meeting, then we 13 have -- don't grab my mic yet. Then we have the right 14 to speak throughout the meeting as we see fit. Don't 15 violate that.
16 MR. KLUKAN: So here's what I'm just 17 saying. So just to be clear. The reason they bring 18 me in is to make sure -- I have one principle purpose 19 is that everyone who came here tonight gets an equal 20 opportunity to speak, to be heard. And no voice is 21 more important than anyone else in this room. So I 22 treat everyone exactly the same.
23 Now if there's time at the end of the 24 meeting in which people -- like, there is additional 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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23 amount of time. We have not gone to 9:00 o'clock, 1
then I will give another round for those who would 2
like to speak again.
3 However, I recognize this is a Category 3 4
meeting. But it is still the NRC's meeting. I 5
appreciate the purpose of this is to speak with 6
members of the public. But the reason why we have 7
these rules is to be fair to everyone who took time 8
out of their busy schedules to be here today. So with 9
that, I'd like to proceed.
10 MR. PORTZLINE: Yeah, there was a fellow 11 there who wanted to comment.
12 MR. WATSON: Yeah, he said it. This is 13 NRC's meeting. We will follow our rules. We will 14 treat everybody fairly. We want to make sure everyone 15 that wants to speak has the opportunity to speak. So 16 it can't be dominated by one or two people. We have 17 to give everyone the opportunity to speak.
18 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. Give me one second to 19 set this up so that we can have a six-minute clock.
20 I apologize. Okay. So this clock will count down six 21 minutes and ten seconds. It will give you a warning 22 buzz. And then at the end, it will make another noise 23 at that time. Again, I would ask you to please wrap 24 up your remarks. Again, if we have additional time at 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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24 the end, I'll be more than happy to do a second round 1
of comments. Okay?
2 So what I'm going to do is work through 3
this list chronologically just going from -- well, 4
first we're going to start with Ms. Stamos. Does the 5
microphone need to be brought to her? We can easily 6
bring the microphone to her.
7 (Off-microphone comments.)
8 MR. KLUKAN: Sure. Okay. And if you're 9
sure you're comfortable. We can do it from this seat.
10 Okay. And then we'll go down the list in order from 11 1 to 11 and then get an additional person.
12 MS. STAMOS OSBORN: Okay. My name is Mary 13 Stamos Osborn. My husband worked at Three Mile Island 14 before the accident. So I have some experience. My 15 name is spelled S-T-A-M-O-S and the Osborn was when I 16 was married to him, O-S-B-O-R-N. And that's when I 17 have most of my information.
18 What bothers me is not that you guys are 19 going to be doing cleanup and stuff. But Three Mile 20 Island is on an earthquake fault. And we had one 21 Lancaster County some years ago and it was under Three 22 Mile Island, under my house, under this area here and 23 the Harrisburg Mall.
24 What will you do to protect the waste and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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25 fuel pools and dry cask storage if there's an 1
accident. Michio Kaku, the nuclear scientist, 2
mentioned if the fuel pools -- if the fuel 3
reconfigured, it could possibly blow up. Would you 4
consider windmills or cooling towers on the --
5 windmills or cooling towers or solar on the parking 6
lot?
7 By the way, this hotel was not here when 8
the accident happened. But the radiation plume line 9
as mentioned and shown in NUREG 0600 at Section 2-3-6 10 said that the radiation was coming out all over this 11 area. And the radiation came out for days and days.
12 And the one documented 0558 nuclear book mentioned 13 that it was ten days of the accident that exposed us 14 to radiation, not the ten years that actually 15 happened.
16 So I would be really curious to know how 17 you're going to protect us from an explosion from an 18 earthquake, and that's it.
19 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you very much. There 20 we are. Thank you. Okay. Next we have Patricia 21 Longenecker. So one second. The NRC staff would like 22 to make some comments.
23 MR. WATSON: Yes, I was going to respond 24 with the question on the earthquakes. The dry fuel 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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26 storage facilities are designed to withstand 1
earthquake seismic activity. I'm sure the types of 2
earthquakes around taken into account into that. As 3
far as installing windmills or solar panels on the 4
site, either on the cooling towers or in the parking 5
lot, that would be up to the owner to decide that, not 6
the NRC. Once we terminate the license and the owner 7
can use the land for any reason, any purpose. They'll 8
welcome to do whatever they choose to do. So whatever 9
Exelon would choose to do as the current owner could 10 do what they wanted to.
11 MS. STAMOS OSBORN: Okay. Michio Kaku was 12 the world expert on using power for the public. And 13 he's the one who mentioned that it could reconfigure 14 if there was an earthquake. Based on how it's been 15 stored for all these years, I just want you to be 16 aware of that and I would check it out with what 17 happened Fukushima.
18 MR. WATSON: Thank you for your comment.
19 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. Okay. Ms.
20 Longenecker, please.
21 MS. LONGENECKER: May I lower it?
22 MR. KLUKAN: Oh, of course. Yes, by all 23 means.
24 MS. LONGENECKER: Thank you, everyone 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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27 who's come this evening. I think we've all got a good 1
intention of safety at our nuclear plant as well as 2
safety for the public. Almost 200 years ago, my great 3
grandfather would walk along that river and pass what 4
is now Three Mile Island with his mule team. Of 5
course on the island was Duffy's at that time, cousins 6
grew the best melons in the whole area because it sits 7
in a flood plain in the middle of the Susquehanna 8
River.
9 And the cheapest, safest energy came to 10 our town in '72. Everyone was excited. In '79, we 11 were appalled to see the world attention on our small, 12 sleepy area. We never thought 40 years later we would 13 have to think of us becoming neighbors to a waste dump 14 that will outlive our lives.
15 This goes very deep in the blood of all of 16 us who have spent 40 years of our time. And as we all 17 know, time is that one precious entity that most of us 18 now do not have. We are the old generation and will 19 not be here hopefully to see a conclusion to what was 20 a worldwide mess created among farmers, hardworking 21 people in this area.
22 Grandfather Grindsor never knew iodine 23 would be handed out among his neighbors except in 24 bottle for remedies at home. The people of that time 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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28 never dreamed an emergency management pamphlet would 1
need to be printed every year to cover what might go 2
wrong at the place we were told would never have an 3
accident.
4 So again, thank you for what you are 5
trying to do to make this wrong right. And remember 6
you are dealing with high level waste that would be 7
flooded out. If we have another Agnes as we did in 8
'72 when the island was flooded. It's the main 9
tributary to the Chesapeake Bay, a treasure for this 10 country.
11 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you very much.
12 (Applause.)
13 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. Next we have Joseph 14 Kucharik. I apologize if I mispronounce anyone's 15 name.
16 MR.
KUCHARIK:
Don't worry about 17 mispronunciation. I've had that all my life. My name 18 is Joseph Kucharik. It's spelled K-U-C-H-A-R-I-K, Jr.
19 First off, I'd like to say that I am a proponent of 20 nuclear energy. I think it's a big mistake for people 21 who want to get rid of nuclear as one of the rights of 22 our source for electricity here at the United States.
23 It's a good system. And these gentlemen 24 are all professionals. They got a lot of experience.
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29 They've shut down reactors prior to this in various 1
locations with various geological faults, et cetera.
2 They know what they're doing. Trust in that.
3 I worked for the government at one time 42 4
years. I won't say what I did, but I have some 5
background in nuclear. I believe that it's a mistake 6
to shut down nuclear reactors. I can understand why 7
this is occurring because they've only got on reactor.
8 If you have the viable reactor had to shut down for 9
refueling, that they've got to go out and get energy 10 from another source during that shut down period.
11 So from Exelon's standpoint, they can't 12 afford it right now. So trust these gentlemen. They 13 know what they're doing. They're not going to let 14 this go bad. And the only thing I would say is Exelon 15 knew what they were getting into when they were 16 building reactors. They knew that eventually they'd 17 have to shut it down.
18 They should fund it which funding for 19 shutting down should not come from any other source 20 other than Exelon. I would have supported the 21 government stepping in and underwriting to a portion 22 to keep the facility open because I believe it's still 23 a viable source for electricity.
24 We just had a head index of 112 the other 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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30 day. And everybody wants air conditioning. We're in 1
a nice, beautiful air conditioned building. Where do 2
you think that comes from? You don't want coal. You 3
don't want -- some people don't want natural gas. You 4
want to rely on solar and wind. It's not enough.
5 It's just not enough. You want to go live in a cave?
6 Go live in a cave.
7 That's all I have to say. These gentlemen 8
are going to do a good job. I have no doubt. Thank 9
you for what you're doing.
10 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
11 (Applause.)
12 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. So the next two 13 individuals, Joyce Conrad and Paula Kinney said they 14 would like to -- do you still want to come up 15 together? Okay. So what I'm going to do because it's 16 kind of painful for me to try to -- I'll give you a 17 full 12 minutes because there's two you. So the clock 18 is going to go to six, and then I'll restart it again.
19 MS. CORRADI: We're not going to take that 20 long.
21 MR. KLUKAN: All right. I was willing to 22 offer it.
23 MR. PORTZLINE: I'll take her six minutes.
24 MR. KLUKAN: All right. Well, we'll talk 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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31 about that later. So please, start by introducing 1
yourselves and then --
2 MS. CORRADI: Okay. My name is Joyce 3
Corradi, C-O-R-R-A-D-I.
4 MS. KINNEY: And my name is Paula Kinney, 5
K-I-N-N-E-Y. And after the accident, we formed a 6
group called Concerned Mothers and Women, and we're 7
here to represent them.
8 MS. CORRADI: First of all, I'd like to 9
let you know a little bit about the earthquake that 10 Mary spoke about. They had earthquake equipment at 11 the time they had the earthquake except they had it 12 set at a seven. And it never registered what they 13 had. So I would be a little concerned about that if 14 I were you, gentlemen. Make sure you check your 15 status on that.
16 My biggest concern is that you as an 17 entity consider strictly the health and wellbeing of 18 this community when this process happens, not money, 19 not the company, but us. We have lived through an 20 accident. I did not cause that accident. The people 21 you were supposed to be watching over caused that 22 accident. So that's why I'm here tonight.
23 Somebody made a mistake somewhere, and I 24 know it wasn't me. So I expect from you to do better 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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32 than what you have already done. And I would like to 1
see someone on site during the whole process to find 2
out what's going on and to be responsible to oversight 3
the company.
4 MS. KINNEY: It's my understanding that 5
the gentlemen to my left were on site. Is that 6
correct? And you were on site at all times?
7 MR. HOLLCRAFT: No, not right now. I 8
permanently stationed at my office.
9 MS. KINNEY: Okay. And is your family 10 with you? I'm sorry. Is your family with you?
11 MR. HOLLCRAFT: This is Zack Hollcraft, 12 senior resident inspector at Three Mile Island. Yes, 13 I live at Mount Joy and my wife and daughter live with 14 me there. I work at the site on a daily basis. I 15 exercise along there often.
16 MS. KINNEY: That's a feeling of comfort 17 to know that a family -- because it's easy to say what 18 you're going to do when you don't have your family 19 there. We've been going through an awful lot, and I 20 must say with all due respect to the gentleman that 21 just spoke. We were told to trust when the accident 22 happened and we did. And that trust, I'm sorry, is 23 gone. And this is a chance to rebuild it.
24 One of the things is the NRC is mandated 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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33 for the health and safety of the public. That's what 1
we're asking for. We're asking you to please -- as 2
Joyce said, don't take shortcuts. We're not 3
statistics. We're people. We're people and we have 4
children. We have grandchildren. We've been through 5
a lot.
6 We're asking you please when you speak 7
about the plants that were cleaned up, did -- and you 8
said it's perfectly safe. Was there ever a health 9
study done to follow up and see if, indeed, it didn't 10 affect the public? Do you know if there was ever a 11 health study?
12 MR. WATSON: Yes, the National Academy of 13 Sciences and other entities have done health studies 14 during the operation and after they shut down.
15 MS. KINNEY: And they followed the people 16 because I know we were promised a health study, and it 17 was never followed through. But we ask you now to 18 please restore the trust. As Joyce said, please don't 19 take short cuts. Please don't let this be a financial 20 thing, please.
21 MS. CORRADI: I would like to know who 22 gives the approval for the company that comes in to 23 clean up. Is it you? Is it Exelon who makes that 24 decision? And what are the standards by which you'll 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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34 do that?
1 MR. WATSON: Well, right now their plan is 2
going into a SAFSTOR situation. The NRC requirement 3
is they complete the decommissioning within 60 years.
4 They have not announced any intentions to either hire 5
a contractor which they would be responsible for 6
making sure the work got done safely which we would 7
provide oversight of both Exelon and the contractor 8
that would be doing the cleanup.
9 So at this point, the plant is going to be 10 placed in a safe condition and will be there for many, 11 many years in a safe condition until they determine 12 when they're going to decommission it which apparently 13 in about 50 years.
14 MS. CORRADI: You say condition. I say 15 it's unsafe right now. It's had an accident. No 16 other decommissioned plants you worked on had 17 accidents like this one, did they?
18 MR. WATSON: TMI-1 has not had an 19 accident, so --
20 MS. CORRADI: I'm sorry.
21 MR. WATSON: Yeah, so it's still operating 22 safely --
23 MS. CORRADI: Yes, right, it's one site --
24 MR. WATSON: -- and it will until 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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35 September 30th if I understand it.
1 MS. CORRADI: Yes, it's one site next to 2
a place where it has had an accident.
3 MR. WATSON: We understand. Thank you.
4 MS. CORRADI: And we yield the rest of our 5
time to Scott.
6 MR. KLUKAN: All right. So it looks like 7
-- let's stick to the six minutes. Thank you for your 8
comments. And then it looks like if we continue on 9
this schedule, that we'll have plenty time for people 10 who would like to speak beyond their initial six 11 minutes. So let's stick with six minutes and then you 12 can get up and speak again. The reason for that being 13 I just want to make sure because I have made promises 14 at other meetings where, oh, I'll get to speak, and 15 then it hasn't happened. So let's get through 16 everyone who would like to speak first and then we'll 17 go through round two.
18 All right. With that said, let us move on 19 to number five, Mr. Keith Gutshall.
20 MR. GUTSHALL: Good evening. Keith 21 Gutshall, G-U-T-S-H-A-L-L. My concern, I mean, is 22 with NRC. I worked at TMI before the outages. Most 23 of these people don't understand when you work in the 24 outages, you're doing the same thing you're doing now 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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36 except for you guys are going to be removing the fuel 1
rods into a safe place till you get time to remove 2
them out of the plant is one of the things people 3
worry about.
4 My concern is when you've already 5
decommissioned it, if there's an accident that does 6
happen, how do you guys communicate with the public?
7 How are you going to communicate with the public?
8 MR. WATSON: Well, in the event of a --
9 I'll say in an event that causes us to notify the 10 public, we would be notifying you exactly the way we 11 do it today.
12 MR. GUTSHALL: Okay.
13 MR. WATSON: Okay. And so that would be 14 in concert with the State of Pennsylvania who would be 15 making decisions on protective action recommendations, 16 based on any dosed any releases of any 17 radioactivity. So really nothing changes.
18 MR. GUTSHALL: It's just like an outage?
19 MR. WATSON: Just like in an outage, yeah.
20 The only difference is they don't -- if they take a 21 pump out, they don't put it back. They --
22 MR. GUTSHALL: Keep it on.
23 MR.
WATSON:
They package it for 24 radioactive waste to go off site.
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37 MR. GUTSHALL: And I also want to 1
appreciate these guys. I worked down there and these 2
guys had the radiation monitors for dose and rems.
3 These guys are really -- I mean, people don't 4
understand when you're in there, the radiation you get 5
in there. You don't get -- you get more out in public 6
by your cell phone, you microwave, the ground.
7 So I mean, I'm not trying to talk down 8
anybody. But if you don't know what you're talking 9
about, don't be screaming at the nuclear world because 10 it's the safest energy that you can have. Where can 11 you fill something up every two years without a 12 problem? When the outages come around, nobody here is 13 saying anything about the outages. They go without a 14 hitch. It's basically like an outage.
15 So I want to commend these guys for doing 16 it safely, going through the outages, and the way he 17 was booted up for a dose. I mean, I was here since 18
'72. I was born in '69 and I lived in here '71. I 19 watched Jimmy Carter drive right past my house. So 20 most of these people don't even know, wasn't around 21 the area and don't live Middletown and didn't worry 22 about the taxes or anything else with the benefit that 23 TMI did for us. So they want to down TMI for closing 24 up.
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38 My other question is what was the 1
determination by you closed TMI down?
2 MR. WATSON: It's a real simple question 3
that the NRC did not shut the plant down. The owner, 4
Exelon, decided to shut it down for a variety of 5
reasons. One was economics. And so that's the only 6
choices that -- the only real decision maker and this 7
is Exelon. The NRC's role will continue to be the 8
same as it has been, to make sure the plant remains 9
safe, whether it's operating or whether it's in 10 decommissioning, until all the radioactive material is 11 removed.
12 MR. GUTSHALL: Okay, thank you. I mean, 13 we do have other nuclear plants in Pennsylvania. And 14 just don't want all nuclear plants being shut down for 15 gas because it's just like Comcast. They market it 16 and everything, all the prices go up. So I mean, I 17 hope you guys take into consideration there is people 18 that are hurting because these jobs are missing. And 19 hopefully everything will be safe like an outage does.
20 Thank you for your time. Have a nice evening.
21 MR. WATSON: Thank you for your comments.
22 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. All right. Next 23 up we have number six, Mr. Eric Epstein.
24 MR. EPSTEIN: How are you guys doing?
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39 MR. WATSON: Good.
1 MR. EPSTEIN: You all use the same tailor?
2 MR. WATSON: I don't think so. I can't 3
afford their tailor.
4 MR. EPSTEIN: You're the only ones getting 5
paid tonight. Anyway, Eric Epstein, Chairman of Three 6
Mile Island. We were founded in 1977, Three Mile 7
Island. Yeah, let me first of all say I'm going to 8
take a different tact thank everybody else. I have 9
zero confidence in the process. I actually think this 10 is a choreographed farce.
11 We went through this and I have actually 12 a quote when we did this again in 1988. We had a TMI 13 safety advisory panel, went through the same identical 14 protocol. We pleaded with you to clean the plant up.
15 We were told and here's a nice little quote from Frank 16 Stendifer that the plant TMI-2 would be cleaned up in 17 2008. Not only is the plant not cleaned up. I 18 doesn't have enough money for decommissioning. And 19 we're faced with the same conundrum again at TMI-1.
20 I gave you testimony today that documented 21 that we are grossly underfunded. You have absolutely 22 no ability to compel anybody to raise the money to 23 raise the shortfall. You do not regulate rates in 24 Pennsylvania. That's a reality.
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40 And so what I'd like to do is the other 1
thing that bothers me is I think the gentleman just 2
said here. The only decision maker here is Exelon.
3 What are you guys doing here? I mean, the NRC is a 4
regulator. So if Exelon is self-regulating -- we'll 5
get back to this in a second.
6 MR.
WATSON:
Exelon is not self-7 regulating.
8 MR. EPSTEIN: You just said the only 9
decision-maker is Exelon.
10 MR. WATSON: No, decision maker --
11 (Simultaneous speaking.)
12 MR. WATSON: -- for determining for 13 whether they operate the plant or not is Exelon.
14 MR. EPSTEIN: Who determines the quality 15 16 MR. WATSON: And I just said after that 17 was the NRC will ensure that the plant remains safe, 18 whether it's in operation and decommissioning until 19 all the radioactive material is gone. Our job is 20 oversight.
21 MR. EPSTEIN: Basic question. You have no 22 authority nor have you raised any money for 23 nonradiological decommissioning.
You have no 24 authority nor have you raised any money for site 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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41 restoration. You have in your policy savings that go 1
to the minimal amount. So structurally you're already 2
underfunded. In fact, if you look at the numbers and 3
math doesn't lie unless Exelon is lying. You're 4
underfunded by 365 million right now.
5 Your theory is that if you wait to 2075, 6
you'll be funded completely. What I would like to do 7
is take a stark opposition. Can I finish? Let me 8
finish. I appreciate it. Because I know you're 9
boiling there, but you'll be okay.
10 MR. WATSON: No, I'm not boiling.
11 MR. EPSTEIN: No, that's good. Well, 12 maybe some rouge. Basically, we oppose -- and I want 13 to make -- because nobody has talked about this today.
14 You've had six nuclear power plants that have been 15 decommissioned. By the way, you have not done a 16 health study on any of them. The National Academy 17 study you were talking about was a generic study, had 18 nothing to do with decommissioning.
19 We oppose ratepayer monies which is what 20 Exelon is also applying to do. They're asking for an 21 exemption. Every nuclear power plant in Pennsylvania, 22 Beaver Valley, Limerick, Susquehanna, Peach Bottom 23 have used their own monies to build dry cask storage.
24 Three Mile Island knew back in the '90s they were 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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42 running out of dry cask storage.
1 I met with you guys time and after time 2
after time. You allowed them to rerack their fuel 3
three times, three times. Now they created an 4
artificial crisis. They have no -- they're basically 5
out of storage space.
6 Exelon is requesting from you the ability 7
to raid their decommissioning funds to build these 8
casks, yet they paid out of corporate funds to perform 9
the same task at Peach Bottom and Limerick. Every 10 other nuclear power plant is doing it. So one of the 11 things that I want to make crystal clear is it's not 12 your money. It's ratepayer money.
13 In addition to that, Exelon has received 14 over 300 million dollars from the Department of Energy 15 to manage your spent fuel. They're double dipping.
16 I stridently oppose allowing you to take money from 17 us, Pennsylvania ratepayers, to pay for a core nuclear 18 power function. In addition to that, it's double 19 dipping. Department of Energy has already released 20 300 million dollars to -- and I'm going to keep 21 hammering this -- to Exelon for spent fuel management 22 capabilities.
23 The other things that I put in here, and 24 you don't really have to respond to is -- and I think 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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43 somebody raised this before. We all know or many of 1
us know that Environmental Solutions signed a contract 2
with FirstEnergy today. It's highly unlikely that 3
when this plant is decommissioned the licensee will be 4
Exelon.
5 There'll be Holtec which is wholly a 6
suspect company or Environmental Solutions. In fact, 7
if Exelon wanted to decommission this plant, they can.
8 They did it at Zion and they're going to do it at 9
Oyster Creek. They choose not to. I think that 10 unconscionable.
11 You can frump all you want, but it 12 happened at Zion and it's going to happen at Oyster 13 Creek. What I'm saying to you is this. This is a 14 decision that the company is making to walk away from 15 their commitment. They're going to mothball TMI-1.
16 That's exactly what played out at TMI-2. TMI-2 has 17 not been decommissioned, has not been decontaminated.
18 It's been placed in post-fuel modular storage. But 19 it's limbo.
20 So if you allow this plant to sit in limbo 21 to 2075, that means TMI-2 sits in limbo to 2075, 100 22 years after the accident. What I'm suggesting to you 23 is if you allow this plant to raid the decommissioning 24 funds to be placed in SAFSTOR, the plant is never 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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44 going to get cleaned up. You have absolutely no 1
ability to compel them to make up the funding 2
difference.
3 Now I did talk to your two economic 4
experts prior to the meeting, and I'm happy with meet 5
with them. But if you look at the proposal, it looks 6
like they're violating at least three Pennsylvania 7
statutes, minimum three statutes.
8 So these are questions -- well, you can 9
chuckle all you want. I'm looking at you and I'm 10 trying to be serious with you and you're dismissing me 11 with your body language.
12 MR. WATSON: No, you're misreading me. I 13 want to make it clear that you're making accusations 14 that you're not giving us an example so we can 15 understand --
16 (Simultaneous speaking.)
17 MR.
EPSTEIN:
The proposal lacks 18 accountability and transparency, violates PA Title 66, 19 transition or stranded costs, paragraph 283(1) and 20 (3). Two, 284, standards of restructuring of electric 21 industry, 2808, competitive transition charge. We 22 called the CTC, determination of competitive -- I 23 mean, we can go on and on. Everything is documented 24 here.
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45 (Applause.)
1 MR. EPSTEIN: Everybody -- this is --
2 look, what's happening here is by federal law. They 3
don't have the authority to raid the decommissioning 4
fund for spent fuel. I know you guys are making rules 5
you need to grant them an exemption. I'm pleading 6
with you not to grant them an exemption. This is a 7
core function in nuclear power to have radioactive 8
waste storage. They choose to create the prices.
9 I have a 37-page document. Unfortunately, 10 there's 81 pages of enclosures. So I don't say this 11 glibly or without satisfaction. And I don't know what 12 you've encountered in other communities and frankly I 13 don't care. But I'm not going to say anything else I 14 can substantiate it and empirically verify it. And if 15 you had been to these meetings over the last 40 years, 16 you know this community has been to this dance before.
17 And it never ends well for us.
18 Same suits. Different people. Same 19 results. I'm just asking for different results. Are 20 you listening? Do you want to respond?
21 MR. WATSON: I was going to just respond 22 to one area. Obviously the exemption is in progress 23 right now. So I really can't comment on anything 24 that's pre-decisional. I was going to point out to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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46 you that site restoration and nonhazardous materials 1
are not the responsibility of the NRC to oversee.
2 They would be for the Environmental Protection Agency, 3
for hazardous materials, or some entity in the state 4
that has an agreement with EPA.
5 For site restoration, that would be up to 6
the state to determine what the site restoration 7
requirements are along with the owner. That's 8
negotiated somewhere along the lines. But it's not an 9
NRC overview. Once we terminate the license, we have 10 no more business at the sites. So that may include 11 site restoration.
12 Once we determine that it meets the 13 radiological criteria for the license termination, we 14 no longer have any authority in any of those areas to 15 make sure the site is restored to whatever the owner 16 wants it or the state wants it to.
17 MR. EPSTEIN: I was under the assumption 18 when I began this journey that the site was going to 19 be restored to its pre-nuclear standards. We were 20 told when you came here to build a nuclear power 21 plant, you could build an elementary school on the 22 site once nuclear power failed to operate. Those were 23 the words.
24 So we still have a good memory. I respect 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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47 what the gentleman had said before. But we put an 1
offer on the table regarding Three Mile Island.
2 Exelon never responded. The governor responded. The 3
gas industry responded. Industrialists responded. A 4
number of folks responded, were fully aware, and 5
actually we think that an accelerated cleanup through 6
DECON would employ more people, protect the tax base, 7
and preserve the institutional knowledge we have here.
8 None of those things are factored by you 9
in this. I mean, this is really -- you've got folks 10 with really good experience. All these plants are 11 different. Sixty years, that goes away. In addition, 12 if you read your document, you have no criteria and no 13 way of preserving that institutional knowledge.
14 That's why I think it makes sense to clean the plant 15 up immediately.
16 (Applause.)
17 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. So your time has 18 expired. So it looks like at this juncture, we're at 19 7:00 o'clock. I'd like to get through the others.
20 MR. EPSTEIN: I understand.
21 MR. KLUKAN: And there will be plenty of 22 time probably for you to go back up. So let's just 23 get through the other people and then we'll go back.
24 MR. EPSTEIN: I should actually compliment 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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48 you. I like that outfit.
1 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you.
2 MR. EPSTEIN: That's a good looking 3
outfit.
4 MR. KLUKAN: I aim to please. So next up 5
we have -- well, wait. All right. So next we have 6
Scott Portline.
7 MR. PORTZLINE: Portzline.
8 MR. KLUKAN: Portzline.
9 MR. PORTZLINE: My name is Scott Portzline 10 from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, Three Mile Island. I 11 have quite a bit of expertise in researching sabotage 12 and terrorism of nuclear power plants along with loss 13 of stolen nuclear materials.
14 I'm going to ask you thoroughly go over 15 what Eric just testified to because he's made about 20 16 great points there for a dose of reality. And now I 17 want to address a
few things regarding 18 decommissioning. I want to try to stay on point just 19 with decommissioning. Just by the way, are the spent 20 fuel casks going to be stored horizontal or 21 vertically?
22 MR. HOLLCRAFT: Zack Hollcraft, Senior 23 Resident Inspector. The site is using a NAC design.
24 That's a vertical cask.
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49 MR. PORTZLINE: Thank you. Zack, your 1
degree was in geology?
2 MR. HOLLCRAFT: One of my degrees, yes.
3 MR. PORTZLINE: What's the other ones?
4 MR. HOLLCRAFT: Environmental engineering.
5 MR. PORTZLINE: All right. Well, good.
6 We have an earthquake man here. But I sure wish that 7
the Nuclear Regulatory Commission would have systems 8
analysts for senior resident inspectors because once 9
I did meet with this resident inspector to bring 10 forward a safety issue. And he said he had no 11 authority to handle that issue. So we took our 12 complaint a petition review board about a safety issue 13 with the steam generators. Justin Poole was the 14 manager of that.
15 And we're being asked to trust what the 16 Nuclear Regulatory Commission says and decides. If 17 there's a decision issued with a petition over the 18 safety of the steam generators where Justin Poole's 19 team could not substantiate with one sentence, one 20 document, one paragraph the reason for their decision.
21 They cite documents, but there's nothing in the those 22 documents that they point to because there's nothing 23 there to counter what we are charging. Now back to 24 decommissioning.
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50 There are some unique things that Three 1
Mile Island Unit 1 and they're connected there too.
2 I know this is about Unit 1. And so my concern the 3
spent fuel cask facility will not be aircraft crash 4
proof. And I see that as a major problem. It's not 5
acceptable. It's the only plant that is two and a 6
half miles from an international airport.
7 Justin, I need to sit down because of an 8
injury I have. Can I use that microphone and move it?
9 Thank you very much. And I wonder if anybody has any 10 comment about the problem associated with an air crash 11
-- an accidental air crash?
12 MR. WATSON: I'm not an expert in spent 13 fuel, but I know there's been a number of studies done 14 for missile impacts which includes aircraft. It was 15 a very, very, very big topic after 9-11 when the 16 planes crashed into the towers in New York City.
17 I know the NRC and almost every safety 18 agency in the country did their own assessment of 19 that, and this included the spent fuel casks as well 20 as the containment buildings and other safety related 21 areas in the event of an airplane crash or a missile 22 strike. So I know those studies have been done. It 23 was determined that these were safe. And so we've 24 continued along that line.
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51 MR. PORTZLINE: When you say determine 1
that these are safe, could you expand on that, if the 2
resident inspector wants to speak?
3 MR. HOLLCRAFT: Yeah, I'll just expand a 4
little bit. Three Mile Island is a little unique for 5
a nuclear site because they are so close to Harrisburg 6
Airport. So because of that, they do have extra 7
hardening that they've accomplished for the operating 8
unit. Yes, they have. It's in their design basis.
9 It's in the FSAR.
10 MR. PORTZLINE: Are you talking about the 11 concrete?
12 MR. HOLLCRAFT: The reactor building is 13 hardened. The --
14 MR. PORTZLINE: I'm sorry now I don't have 15 a microphone.
16 MR.
HOLLCRAFT:
I understand your 17 disagreement, Mr. Portzline. But there are extra 18 steps. There are extra design bases or designs in 19 their --
20 MR. PORTZLINE: Not with the concrete 21 building, so don't say that there is.
22 MR. HOLLCRAFT: Okay. I understand your 23 point, sir. Anyways, as far as the licensing for the 24 independent spent fuel safety installation, they'll 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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52 have to -- they haven't submitted their supplement to 1
the NAC design control document. So when they do 2
that, that will be something for the ISFSI licensing 3
folks at headquarters to determine whether or not they 4
do need to harden against aircraft just like the 5
operating units are.
6 MR. PORTZLINE: Do you want to continue 7
with an answer?
8 MR. WATSON: He answered the question.
9 MR. PORTZLINE: Okay. You are familiar, 10 though, that in the decommissioning document it does 11 say that of all the risk that concerns the NRC, 12 there's only one big one and that's an air crash with 13 fire. And it sounds like you're not even familiar 14 that that's in the decommissioning document. So I'll 15 refer you to that.
16 MR. WATSON: I've read it. I mean, I'm 17 not going to report every detail in it.
18 MR. PORTZLINE: That's why we're here.
19 I'll help you out.
20 MR. WATSON: But I also have experts that 21 are also looking at it, and I'm just managing the 22 process.
23 MR. PORTZLINE: Yeah, I'm familiar with 24 how the experts work because they give us accidents.
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53 They have accidents with fuel handling. When there 1
was an outage down at Three Mile a few years ago, 2
there was a radioactive release. Very minor, nothing 3
to worry about. But I don't want to hear that these 4
accidents don't happen as the previous speaker said.
5 So how about the purposeful air crash into 6
a spent fuel pool? I'm saying as my comment that we 7
need to consider that this is a very real possibility.
8 Al Qaeda threatened to target Three Mile Island with 9
a cargo jet laced -- filled with explosives. This 10 happened on October the 17th, 2001, one month after 11 the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon.
12 And you might want to look at a Dateline 13 episode. There's a transcript you can get of that 14 where we talk about that. So Al Qaeda also surveilled 15 Three Mile Island the summer before 2001. They were 16 right here surveilling it. It's a real possibility.
17 I'm not going to stand by without yelling to the NRC 18 and whoever will listen with the legislatures that we 19 have a facility next to an international airport 20 surveilled and targeted by Al Qaeda and threatened by 21 Al Qaeda would be a better description without having 22 aircraft proof buildings. Got to have it.
23 The fire as a result of the fuel tanks 24 would disperse that radiation to catastrophic levels 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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54 exceeding Fukushima, exceeding Three Mile Island 1
because of the radioactive content is more than 2
probably 10,000 nuclear bombs. Inside each reactor 3
core is radioactive content greater than 1,000 nuclear 4
bombs. So we have year after year.
5 I'm trying to move as fast as I can, but 6
I'll probably claim some more time later one. Let's 7
talk about how high the casks are going to be above 8
the flood level. Does anybody know that. Is there 9
anybody here from Exelon that can tell us that?
10 MR. WATSON: I don't believe there is 11 anybody here that's going to answer that. So you're 12 going to have to refer your question to Exelon, the 13 Office of Public Affairs.
14 MR.
PORTZLINE:
- Yeah, in the 15 decommissioning document, it talks about leveling the 16 buildings to five feet below the current level. And 17 so I think it ought to be in the decommissioning 18 document. It ought to state in there what level Three 19 Mile Island needs to have to protect against a flood 20 so that we don't have -- we know what happened in 21 Cooper where they had to put inflatable damns or berms 22 around the spent fuel cask and the plant. And one of 23 them failed. Fortunately, it failed to the extent 24 where the pumps inside the reactor building could keep 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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55 up.
1 Now the second issue is with Unit 2, so 2
those may be out of bounds. But inside the 3
containment building in Unit 2 in the basement is 4
deadly radioactivity in the water content there. If 5
there is a flood, this is why we need to clean up both 6
reactors now. If there's a flood, it will infiltrate 7
the containment building of Unit 2 and release that 8
water downstream to cities like Lancaster and so forth 9
at terrible levels. I'll stop there. Thank you.
10 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. Okay. And again, 11 we are likely to have time remaining after we get 12 through the initial speakers just to make people 13 aware. So next up we have Gene Stiles.
14 MR. STILES: Stiles, S-T-I-L-E-S.
15 MR. KLUKAN: Oh, Stiles. I'll let you --
16 I'm sorry. Just let you pronounce your own name.
17 MR. STILES: Gene Stiles, G-E-N-E S-T-I-L-18 E-S, a longtime nuclear activist. A little while ago, 19 we tried to -- at the NRC level, the national level, 20 try to get the high level waste storage changed -- the 21 rules changed for that to make it more -- how should 22 I say it? To take care of it in this century in some 23 fashion. At this point, everybody in this room is 24 going to be dead before this plant is cleaned up here.
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56 Is that a good idea.
1 That's what they're betting on. So I'm 2
not betting on that. Okay? I'm with Eric Epstein.
3 Okay? I'd like to see this plant cleaned. I'd like 4
to see the waste cleaned up now. How many dog and 5
pony shows can you bring to Harrisburg over the last 6
40 years? All right.
7 You guys, NRC, the faces of NRC is here.
8 The faces changes. The outcome always stays the same.
9 All right. Makes it look good and that's it. I 10 remember being in the Middletown fire house four years 11 ago with these ladies here fighting this whole thing, 12 and everything stayed the same for so many years.
13 Plant 2 is not cleaned up yet. It's going to be there 14 forever unless we do something.
15 And this is where you people in the back 16 of the room come in. How many people in this room 17 have lost your jobs at Three Mile Island, had to go 18 someplace else? Anybody? How many people? Must be 19 somebody out there, right?
20 Well, guess what? There's a new job just 21 waiting for you if you start lobbying for them. If 22 you started getting representatives at the federal 23 level, state level. Guess what? The job is cleanup.
24 Start getting jobs for cleanup right now. You can do 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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57 that. Get retraining, some fashion set up things for 1
that. But you can actually have jobs right now to 2
start on that, not just monitoring the site, not just 3
doing that. All right.
4 But we live in a world where things have 5
to change and you have to change with it. I was on a 6
lobby against the Davis-Besse and the Perry plant out 7
there. We had a battle here. In Ohio, it's so 8
corrupt, you won't believe how bad it was out there.
9 It passed today, but so much corruption. It's 10 unbelievable. Thank God you don't live in Ohio.
11 Now the thing here is that there's jobs 12 out there if you make them. Okay? Half of you ain't 13 going to do a damn thing for you. Okay? As a matter 14 of fact, he let an incinerator be built for burning of 15 bodies right in the middle of a neighborhood. In 16 Middletown, he wanted to do that. He won't help us 17 fight that. But fortunately, we beat them without 18 him.
19 Anyhow, start providing jobs right now by 20 starting the cleanup right now. Not waiting for these 21 guys to do their dog and pony shows ten years from now 22 again and again and again. So the key thing is make 23 jobs right now. Start jobs right now. Get Mehaffie 24 working on that because all he's doing is he's boo-25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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58 hooing the fact that he couldn't get the bill through 1
the legislature. So get him cooking on that right 2
now. Put him to work.
3 That's all I have to say except that we'll 4
see you in about five years. Same people -- oh, 5
sorry, different faces, same issue in a couple years.
6 And while we're at it, don't forget. This is not a 7
microcosm here at Three Mile Island. Okay? Waste in 8
the river here. All right. Or upstream, Peach 9
Bottom, downstream, all nuclear waste storage sites.
10 We originally did the deal for nuclear 11 power years and years ago. Our parents did okay. All 12 the nuclear waste was supposed to go someplace else.
13 But it fell through the cracks. There's nothing being 14 done to make a national nuclear waste storage site.
15 Who knows what has to happen to get that going? But 16 this thing, storing it in the middle of the river, 17 this deal, this devil with -- excuse me, bargaining 18 with the devil to store it in the rivers.
19 And the Susquehanna River is an 20 abomination to the river, abomination to the citizens 21 who live here, abomination to all points of nature.
22 And it provides more targets for the world we live in 23 now, more terrorist targets, okay, in a big way. More 24 terrorist targets unfortunately. It's a sad thing.
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59 So get off your duff. When you go back to 1
D.C. or wherever you have to go to, talk to the policy 2
makers or higher up. We realize you guys are just the 3
little guys, okay, and things like that. You're just 4
-- how should we say it? And we realize the NRC 5
commissioners are just political appointees by this 6
idiot Trump.
7 So my point is that get off your Duff.
8 Start doing something. If you have to get fired from 9
your job for shaking the foundation of the NRC, do it.
10 Okay? And get to it. Right now, make jobs for 11 Pennsylvania. Make jobs for Pennsylvania, Mehaffie.
12 All right. I see you back there, hiding back there.
13 Make jobs for Pennsylvania. Start to clean.
14 (Off-microphone comments.)
15 MR. STILES: I know that. He had to go to 16 the bathroom. I know. Anyhow, the point of the 17 manner is that start making jobs now for Pennsylvania, 18 right now for Pennsylvania. Get off your duff and do 19 that. All right? Thank you so much.
20 (Applause.)
21 MR. KLUKAN: All right. Thanks. So, look 22 23 MR. PORTZLINE: Say something about that, 24 would you?
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60 MR. KLUKAN: So here's what I'm going to 1
say about that. Well, the reason I do this. Give me 2
one minute since we have plenty of time. This is 3
volunteer activity for me. Like, they're required to 4
be here. I'm not. Shoot. All right. There we go.
5 So I turned it off so I didn't pick on bleeding or 6
whatever while I'm just standing here.
7 This is a volunteer activity for me. The 8
reason I come here to facilitate these meetings is to 9
really encourage discourse between the public and the 10 NRC. I believe that it's important, this kind of 11 outreach, and I would encourage it. Part of that is 12 also inculcating a level of civil respect.
13 So when it's someone's turn to speak, 14 they're being heckled, it is really difficult to 15 concentrate having been heckled plenty of times 16 myself. So I'd ask you not to do that. I don't know 17 who yelled that out back there. I would just ask that 18 you not do that again. And the same thing goes for 19 other little comments I kind of heard on the side.
20 Look, it's one thing if you're heckling 21 us. As someone else said, we're being paid here. I 22 would ask that you not do it. But I can understand 23 it. But please don't heckle each other, other members 24 of the public here. It's hard to think when it 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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61 happens.
1 All right. So with that said, let's move 2
on. Okay. Next we have Judy Richard.
3 MS. RICHARD: I'm giving up my time to 4
Eric.
5 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. Well, Eric -- are you 6
sure you don't have anything you want to say? There's 7
going to be plenty of time.
8 MS. RICHARD: No.
9 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. All right. So there 10 was someone else. So please.
11 MS. McMILLEN: My name is Dusty McMillen, 12 M-C-M-I-L-L-E-N. My husband and I live directly 13 across from Three Mile Island. And it's gorgeous and 14 I'm probably going to leave tonight scared out of my 15 wits. My grandchildren and I swim in the river, and 16 it's a concern that the fish are having problems and 17 things like that.
18 But to get to my point, is there a time in 19 the safe storage piece that is more dangerous or more 20 apt to have an accident than any other time?
21 MR. WATSON: That's actually a good 22 question because once the plant shuts down, the plant 23 will be defueled just like they do in a refueling. So 24 it'd be done very safety. After that, the fuel is in 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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62 the spent fuel pool. It's in its safest configuration 1
it can be. You can have a reactor accident because 2
the reactor no longer has fuel in it.
3 MS. McMILLEN: Okay.
4 MR. WATSON: Okay. So from that 5
perspective, it becomes safer and safer as time goes 6
on because also the fuel goes through an energy decay 7
from heat, okay, as it cools down. So after a while, 8
after about a year, year and a half, the fuel can no 9
longer cause an offsite release that would exceed any 10 of the protective action recommendations or protective 11 action guides.
12 So as time goes on, it gets safer and 13 safer and safer. Once the fuel is moved to the dry 14 fuel storage, it is even in a safer condition. It's 15 in a passive system for cooling and it's also shielded 16 with large concrete shields. And so it's even safer 17 at that point. So right now with the plant operating, 18 it only becomes safer.
19 MS. McMILLEN: And we really appreciate 20 your being there and watching carefully. And 21 hopefully you have a backup that's there in the 22 evenings when you're not there maybe.
23 MR. KLUKAN: Yes, yes, the answer is yes.
24 MS. McMILLEN: 24-7?
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63 MR. HOLLCRAFT: We'll go ahead and clarify 1
a little bit. So there's usually two residents at 2
each site. Actually, my normal resident just actually 3
took a promotion. I get a new one on Thursday. We 4
don't have to be there 24-7. We are on 24-7 call. I 5
got my phone right here. If they have any issues, 6
they give me a call and I'll truck on out to the site.
7 I should clarify, though. This was 8
mentioned earlier that my job goes away once the plant 9
decommissions. And we will no longer have resident 10 inspectors on site. As he described, the risk goes 11 significantly lower. And so there's no need for me to 12 be there. Those systems he talked about --
13 MS. McMILLEN: They'll still be checked?
14 MR. WATSON: Oh, yeah. Steve will be out 15 there.
16 MS. McMILLEN: But it's not an onsite 24-7 17 deal? Okay.
18 MR. HOLLCRAFT: That's correct. We still 19 do inspections. We just don't need someone on site at 20 all times for emergency response because the risk is 21 so much lower.
22 MS. McMILLEN: Okay. I've got a couple 23 more things here. It's okay. Since we're here in 24 Pennsylvania, we have a major industry in fracking.
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64 And there have been some states where fracking has 1
been promoted to the point where they do have unusual 2
things sometimes happening with their water and also 3
an increased chance of earthquakes.
4 And I was hoping that that would be on 5
your radar. We are seriously fracking a lot of places 6
in Pennsylvania. And between the sinkholes -- I 7
taught at Milton Hershey School for 20 years. And I 8
had a sinkhole on my hockey field and it was because 9
of the porous, the limestone caverns, and the drainage 10 in that area as well. So just to put those on your 11 radar screen.
12 And the danger to the fish and the 13 wildlife in the river is a big concern to me. As a 14 state, it's not been given an endangered river 15 designation. It's consequently given like a D-plus, 16 not a C even on the quality of fish and things. We 17 have fish that have all kinds of tumors and things 18 growing on them already. There's a big concern over 19 the chemicals that are put into the river.
20 It's not -- 50 years ago, it was what you 21 could see, the particles and things, sewage and that 22 kind of stuff. Now it's what you can't see that's in 23 the river. So the health of the wildlife in the river 24 and the aquatic lives are there, it's a big concern 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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65 and we'd like you to take that seriously.
1 And then the final thing is with the 2
changes in your EPA, the political scope I guess.
3 Climate change for me somebody living on -- I mean, 4
literally we walk down into the water. I'm right 5
there. And we flooded last year and we didn't get a 6
boat in after July 23rd last summer because the river 7
was so high. So climate change is like hitting me 8
right in the face every morning I wake up.
9 So those are just a couple of the things 10 that are a concern and I'll hope you'll consider all 11 those. Thank you very much for coming.
12 (Applause.)
13 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. So before we go to 14 round two, I want to make sure is there anyone in the 15 audience who has not yet had an opportunity to speak 16 who would like to do so? Please raise your hand. I'm 17 just seeing one, so please come on up, sir. Come on 18 down as they say on The Price is Right. And then 19 we'll go to round two.
20 MR. RUNK: Hi, thank you. My name is 21 Timothy Runk. I'm from Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania.
22 I'm just catching up on a lot of this and hearing 23 about the alternatives between a DECON and a SAFSTOR.
24 And I'm getting the feeling that the residents around 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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66 here would really like to see an accelerated closure.
1 It's something that would fix the job scenario. And 2
I'm curious. Who makes that decision?
3 So if it's going to go to the SAFSTOR to 4
a DECON, is that Exelon that decides their path 5
forward? And why are they allowed to make their own 6
decisions on that?
7 MR. WATSON: Yes. Exelon is responsible 8
for making those decisions. The NRC Commission back 9
in the late 1990s, 1997 when the regulations were 10 issued allowed the reactors up to 60 years to complete 11 the decommissioning. So this was made by our boss' 12 bosses way back when and that's the policy and that's 13 what's in the regulations.
14 I can tell you that they can change their 15 mind at any time. Some plants enter into a SAFSTOR 16 and begin some minor decommissioning after they get 17 the fuel removed and quietly kind of do it. But you 18 can't tell from looking at the building. But that's 19 their choice at what rate and whether they just do 20 nothing for 50 years.
21 There are some advantages of waiting 22 because as time goes on, the radioactive material 23 decays. The actual dose rates that the workers would 24 be working in to remove, dismantle the equipment are 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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67 reduced significantly as time goes on. So there are 1
some benefits of waiting. But like I said, it's 2
solely the licensees or in this case Exelon's decision 3
when they're going to do the decommissioning. The 4
only thing I can tell you is that we will be there to 5
make sure it's safe and secure during that entire 6
period.
7 We presently inspect Unit 2 at least 8
annually. Kim, you were there earlier this year with 9
the Region 1 inspectors. So we will continue to 10 inspect the plant and that activity will be based on 11
-- those inspection activities will be based on what 12 activities are done at the site. So anything of risk 13 significance, we would be there to observe that. And 14 so like I said, we're going to be there to make sure 15 it's safe and secure. But it's Exelon's decision on 16 the rate at what they decommission the plant.
17 MR. RUNK: And can I follow up with that?
18 Is there any -- I mean, it's a large risk and a 19 consideration of risk with the time frame being around 20 financially and also environmentally. As a risk 21 mitigation factor, what -- if things change or 22 conditions change on site, what's the process? Who 23 compels there to be a change to clean it up faster?
24 Is that a decision that Exelon will make based on 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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68 their own observations on site? Or is that something 1
that an oversight agency will do?
2 MR. WATSON: Fundamentally, Exelon will 3
make that assessment and they will advise us what 4
their plans are if they're going to change. And then 5
we would be there to inspect those activities as they 6
became risk significant to us for safety and for 7
security. Obviously, they own the plant. They got to 8
keep it safe and secure. That means they got to 9
protect it from whatever issues come up, whether it's 10 additional flooding, whatever. But it's their 11 requirement to keep the plant in a safe condition.
12 MR. RUNK: What would that look like? Do 13 they just submit a request to change from a SAFSTOR to 14 a different strategy?
15 MR. WATSON: More than likely, it would be 16 a conversation between them and our project manager.
17 They may come in and send a letter addressing what 18 their change in strategy is. They can amend this 19 Post-Shutdown Decommissioning Activities Report.
20 There's a number of ways to do it. So it's really an 21 ongoing communication between the NRC, mainly between 22 our project
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69 oversight there.
1 We will continue to inspect the plant, 2
like I said, to make sure it's safe. We'll have 3
security inspections, EP inspections. We'll continue 4
to do our job to make sure the plant is safe and 5
secure.
6 MR. RUNK: Thank you.
7 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. All right. Last 8
call. Anyone who has not yet spoken, please.
9 MS. TAYLOR: I have a question more than 10 anything else.
11 MR. KLUKAN: Could you just state your 12 name? I'm sorry to interrupt you.
13 MS. TAYLOR: It's Wendy Taylor. And I 14 didn't live here when the accident happened, but I 15 moved here afterwards. And I'm sitting here hearing 16 that it's going to be safe. But what if it isn't 17 safe? What if your inspectors go and say whatever is 18 happening isn't safe. Can you compel them to do 19 something differently?
20 MR. WATSON: Absolutely. We have an 21 enforcement policy which includes besides just issuing 22 them violations and having them take corrective 23 actions. But it may involve issuing orders which are 24
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70 letters and which require them to do certain 1
activities to ensure the safety of the facility. And 2
those get a lot of attention at the NRC if we get to 3
that point.
4 So like I said, we have the enforcement 5
program where we issue violations. Those violations 6
can also have civil penalties with them. And of 7
course, if things really are not being maintained 8
safely, we can issue a corrective action, confirmatory 9
action letters. And our reports are public, as you 10 know.
11 MS. TAYLOR: How often do you inspect 12 those dry casks? I heard regularly, but I don't know 13 what regularly means.
14 MR. HAMMAN: We will inspect them from the 15 time they're starting to fabricate the concrete and 16 doing upgrades to the cranes and things. The initial 17 loading, we're there for the initial loading. If 18 they're doing a continuous campaign where they're 19 going to completely empty out the pool, we'll be there 20 probably about three times, three separate inspections 21 throughout that time period. And then once everything 22 is out on the pad and it's stored in dry cask storage, 23 we inspect every two years.
24 MS. TAYLOR: If you find a cask is 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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71 leaking, what happens?
1 MR. HAMMAN: Well, it is dry cask storage, 2
so there's no liquids in it. They do take -- there is 3
radiation monitoring. So there are certain limits.
4 And if they bypass the limit, then they have to 5
address the problem, find out -- do a corrective 6
action. Find out what the problem is and they have to 7
fix it.
8 MS. TAYLOR: Okay. And you will know 9
that?
10 MR. HAMMAN: Yes, besides doing the dry 11 cask storage inspection every two years, we are on 12 site a lot more often than that. So we do look at the 13 corrective action program. We will see if there are 14 any problems like that of the cask.
15 MS. TAYLOR: Thank you.
16 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. Just to follow up 17 really quickly on enforcement. So usually I don't 18 step aside from my facilitator role. But I'm also the 19 team leader for allegations and enforcement within the 20 region apart from the regional counsel.
21 So just to complement what Bruce was 22 saying is that we can issue orders for safety reasons.
23 If we find a condition unsafe at the facility, the 24 Commission can, in order to ensure public health and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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72 safety, issue an order for the licensee to continue or 1
to take additional actions.
2 We also -- as enforcement as it would 3
indicate can also penalize the licensee or its 4
employees for violating NRC requirements including 5
submitting fraudulent information to the NRC. So we 6
review all the submission by the licensee including 7
what they submit during decommissioning in accordance 8
with those rules and can take enforcement action 9
against the licensee if we find any of those numbers 10 to be incorrect or inaccurate and even further 11 enforcement actions if we find those to be 12 deliberately inaccurate.
13 And that can even extend to criminal 14 prosecution. I was involved in one case from a Region 15 I perspective. Not decommissioning but a material 16 site in California where DOJ did come and step in and 17 take criminal -- engage in criminal prosecution 18 against mid-level individuals within the company for 19 submitting false information and other fraudulent 20 acts.
21 So anyway, all right. Anyone else who has 22 not yet spoken who would like to speak? Going once --
23 oh, one person, please.
24 MR. ERDMAN: My name is Dennis Erdman, E-25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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73 R-D-M-A-N. I live in Harrisburg. A question about 1
the financial part of the same. Someone has to pay 2
for this. The NRC is not paying for this. Exelon is 3
paying for this. There could be a lot of different 4
things that can be done financially with Exelon. I'm 5
not -- I don't really know how those kind of things 6
work. But transferring the plan into another entity.
7 That entity goes bankrupt. Who pays to shut it down 8
or to decommission it or even do what you're doing 9
right now?
10 MR. WATSON: Do you want to answer it or 11 do you want me to answer it?
12 MR. TURTIL: If you'd like to.
13 MR. WATSON: All right. Well, feel free, 14 Rich. Whoever accepts a license is responsible for 15 the -- I'll say cradle to grave of that facility. So 16 right now Exelon is the licensee. They are 17 responsible for maintaining the plant in a safe 18 condition. That means during operations. It means 19 during decommissioning until the license is 20 terminated. So therefore, they are financially 21 responsible for making sure all those things happen.
22 Okay?
23 Should they request an application to 24 transfer the plant to another entity as part of an 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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74 asset transfer or sale or whatever you want to call 1
it? Then that entity would be assuming that 2
responsibility. Okay? So they would become the 3
responsible party for ensuring the decommissioning 4
gets done safely and accounting for the money, the 5
financial part of the decommissioning, so --
6 MR. ERDMAN: So you ensure that there's an 7
insurance policy if that's the way that works? It's 8
not going to be money sitting in the bank. Exelon 9
probably buys an insurance policy that ensures --
10 MR. WATSON: That's one way they could do 11 it, but --
12 MR. ERDMAN: A billion, eight billion 13 dollars.
14 MR. TURTIL: If I can -- my name is 15 Richard Turtil. I'm one of the financial analysts at 16 NRC headquarters in Rockville. Is this on? Good.
17 Just to give you a basic background on our 18 decommissioning funding requirements. So it's 19 important to know that any facility that has come 20 online had to get certification that they are putting 21 in place decommissioning funding dollars. And there 22 are a series of steps throughout the operating life of 23 a reactor, where they're putting what we consider to 24 be reasonable assurance for radiological 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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75 decommissioning funding.
1 So currently, TMI-1 has -- as of December 2
of 2018, has 600 -- I think it's 669, 669 million 3
dollars that it has been putting aside for decades, 4
building the amount of money that is required. Again, 5
I want to be clear. It's for radiological 6
decommissioning. And all of these requirements are 7
very specific. They're a part of NRC's criteria in an 8
area called 50.75.
9 So there's funding requirements, sort of 10 a minimum formula amount over the years. And then as 11 we get closer and closer to end of life of operations, 12 the NRC requires site-specific cost estimates. So 13 they have a minimum amount based on what their 14 megawatt thermal capacity is and if they're a PWR 15 versus a BWR.
16 So every reactor in this country, each of 17 the 100 or so power reactors in this country are 18 putting aside or have put aside funding for our 19 decommissioning funding criteria. And TMI-1 has put 20 aside -- I believe it's 669 million as of December of 21 2018. We're looking at that dollar figure. We're 22 seeing if it meets this funding requirement.
23 But now we're also look at this 24 decommissioned site specific as required. The 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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76 licensee has come in with a
site specific 1
decommissioning cost estimate. And that's part of 2
this April 5th series of submittals that they've sent 3
in. April 5th of 2019 that we are reviewing as part 4
of the PSDAR review as well as the site-specific cost 5
estimate as well as the irradiated fuel management 6
plan.
7 All of these things, we're looking at the 8
estimates. We're looking at the funding that is 9
currently set aside. And we are concluding, staff, 10 one way or the other, do we feel there's reasonable 11 assurance that funding is adequate for radiological 12 decommissioning.
13 Now there are other areas that NRC does 14 not have the authority which is nonradiologic. But I 15 hope that gives you a sense of what is being put 16 aside. It's not just an insurance policy or a 17 promise. There are funds sitting in what are called 18 decommissioning trust funds, and that is what NRC's 19 authority is in looking over that.
20 MR. ERDMAN: And they can't touch that for 21 any other reason, even if the company is ready to go 22 out of business?
23 MR. TURTIL: That is correct. First, 24 they're maintained by third parties. So even the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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77 licensee -- hold on a sec. Even the -- the licensees 1
are not managing these funds. They're managed by 2
third parties, number one. Number two, these funds 3
are for radiologic decommissioning only. Now they can 4
always say, we have more than adequate funds and we 5
believe we can make a case that maybe we can use some 6
of these funds for spent fuel management, et cetera.
7 NRC would consider -- and one way or 8
another, we may say, we don't agree with you. Or we 9
may conclude otherwise. But again, these funds right 10 now cannot be used for other than radiologic 11 decommissioning unless otherwise they come in for a 12 conversation exemption with the NRC.
13 MR. WATSON: I was just going to add one 14 point and that is to emphasize that these funds are in 15 an independent trust fund with a bank. There's a 16 trustee. They can only withdraw those funds for 17 radiological decommissioning. They can't be used for 18 any other purpose.
19 Right now, Pacific Gas and Electric is in 20 bankruptcy. They have the Humboldt Bay plant which 21 they're finishing the decommissioning on and they have 22 the Diablo Canyon plants that are due to shut down in 23 2025 somewhere in there. But one of the first things 24 is that they cannot touch the decommissioning funds to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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78 help them with their bankruptcy situation. And so 1
those funds stay intact so they're available for when 2
they do need to decommission the plant.
3 Like I said earlier tonight, Humboldt Bay 4
is about finished with the decommissioning. And we 5
expect them to finish late this year or early next 6
year and have the license terminated next year. So 7
those funds that are in that decommissioning fund will 8
remain there until they terminate the license. And 9
then the laws of California would go into effect, 10 whatever leftovers or however they handle it in 11 California.
12 MR. ERDMAN: All right. Thank you.
13 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. Anyone else who has 14 not yet spoken? I just want to make sure. Okay.
15 Going once, twice. All right. Who here who has 16 already spoken would like to speak again, raise hands.
17 So we have four people. Okay. How about we give you, 18 what do we say, like, eight, ten minutes? Does that 19 seem fair?
20 Now for the rest of the audience, if you 21 have not yet spoken tonight and you hear something 22 that you would like to respond to, raise your hand and 23 we'll slot you in. So between yourselves, decide 24 who's -- well, I guess we'll just go through the list.
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79 So Patricia, you were first up. So why don't we just 1
go to you next.
2 MS. LONGENECKER: Question. We've been 3
talking here insurances and liability area. What 4
insurance have you thought or funded if the safe 5
practices become unsafe? Does that families that live 6
on 441 -- the lady who spoke that she and her 7
grandchildren boating on that river. What if you have 8
an incident in this process over the next years, where 9
is their insurance for them?
10 Currently, in this country there is no 11 company that will provide nuclear insurance. The only 12 one is USAA government funded insurance only for a 13 fire caused by nuclear. So to me, that's a very real 14 question in some many thousands of people in the 15 vicinity of this island that could be impacted 16 adversely in this process.
17 MR. WATSON: I'm thinking here. But the 18 nuclear plants are required -- you want to because 19 it's Price-Anderson insurance issues?
20 MR. TURTIL: Again, Richard Turtil. Thank 21 you for that question. Just so that you know, so 22 nuclear power reactors in operations have liability 23 insurance, what's called the Price-Anderson Act. It's 24 an act that was put in place by the federal government 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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80 to make sure there are insurers and reinsurers for 1
nuclear, basically catastrophic incidents.
2 And all these different
- entities, 3
utilities, merchant plants pay into and provide 4
insurance through that act. As facilities become less 5
of a risk because they're stepping out of nuclear 6
power operations, the NRC is basically looking at 7
criteria that come down. So since there is a less of 8
a liability at such a facility, their liability 9
insurance would be coming down because the risk 10 possibilities have come down as well.
11 But reactor facilities are able to get 12 both through Price-Anderson the catastrophic insurance 13 and liability. But also we have requirements in 14 50.54(w) which has onsite liability for the reactor 15 facilities and other insurance. So these facilities 16 have insurance and have liability considerations for 17 how they cover what could potentially occur as a 18 result of their operations.
19 MS. LONGENECKER: And Price-Anderson I 20 think is in 58, specifically written to protect the 21 nuclear industry's liabilities. And I think more so 22 to protect Exelons of this world, not these people 23 living on 441.
24 So the problem is the question still 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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81 remains, what would be provided if a family like this 1
loses property, loses health? Instead of saying, we 2
can't tell you that breast cancer came from this.
3 There are so many unanswered questions.
4 I appreciate you bringing up Price-5 Anderson, and that was an important act created for 6
the nuclear industry. But it does not resolve these 7
problems of people who will be continuing to live 8
through this next safe storage and hopefully see it 9
complete its course at that direction and not impair 10 their health and safety.
11 MR. TURTIL: I appreciate that. I know 12 that as we look at these transitions from operating 13 reactor to non-operating, we are looking for what 14 insurance and what insurance indemnity coverage these 15 facilities have. And we have precedent where 16 different facilities are to be ensured to some level 17 for such potential incident.
18 MS. PEDERSEN: Okay. Thank you.
19 MR. WATSON: It's not an insurance issue.
20 But I want to point out that once the plant shuts 21 down, the actual effluence from the plant will go to 22 a very small fraction of what they were when they were 23 operating. So both gaseous releases and any liquid 24 releases would go to an extremely small fraction, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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82 almost zero once the plant reaches a point where it's 1
in SAFSTOR condition.
2 MR. KLUKAN: Would you like to speak?
3 MS. MULLIGAN: Maureen Mulligan, President 4
of Sustainable Futures Communications group and a 5
member of TMIA as well. From what I understand about 6
Price Anderson, it's grossly underfunded. There's 7
approximately 10.5 billion dollars in the accounts, 8
but that money is not available for certain kinds of 9
things.
10 So if something happened in a
11 decommissioning
- state, it's for catastrophic 12 accidents, 103 plants in the country. Maybe there's 13 a few less now. The numbers show that they've been 14 underfunded significantly for a long time.
15 So to over-rely on Price-Anderson as an 16 answer seems a little -- doesn't give me a lot of 17 confidence in the system, frankly. I don't have all 18 the stats. I didn't know I was going to speak on this 19 here tonight.
20 MR. WATSON: We don't have them either.
21 MS. MULLIGAN: But I do think that Price-22 Anderson is not the full answer. And if someone can 23 address where the rest of the money will come from 24 because I fear it's taxpayers and ratepayers.
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83 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. All right. Next 1
up? Oh, any comment?
2 MR. WATSON: No, I don't know enough about 3
Price-Anderson to --
4 MR. PORTZLINE: Can I speak to Price-5 Anderson?
6 MR. KLUKAN: Sure. So we have Eric. Mr.
7 Epstein, I don't want to use first name. We have you 8
and we have Mr. Stiles left. So really it's between 9
the three of you who wants to go next. So if you want 10 to go next, if you two consent to that, that's fine 11 with me. But am I hearing any objections?
12 MR. PORTZLINE: I'd like to speak to 13 Price-Anderson.
14 MR. KLUKAN: Why don't we -- if you're 15 okay, then why don't just let Scott. All right.
16 MR. PORTZLINE: My concern with Price-17 Anderson is it kicks in for catastrophic events. We 18 could have the people that live along 441 lose their 19 home for a month or so maybe with an evacuation.
20 Price-Anderson is not going to cover that. Price-21 Anderson didn't kick in for Three Mile Island accident 22 in 1979.
23 So when we talk about catastrophic events, 24 there's a big judgment, a decision made that at that 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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84 time in 1979 that this did not meet the criteria. So 1
good luck collecting just because you have to evacuate 2
your home for a month. And if you lose the property 3
value or let's say you lose property altogether, that 4
still don't qualify as a catastrophic event in my 5
judgment. And you'll have to take it to court. And 6
the lawyers are going to fight with you, and you're 7
going to be in court for at least ten years. So you 8
have that to look forward to.
9 I want to pick up again on a security 10 issue. How many companies are going to be involved at 11 Three Mile Island in general? Because we have Unit 1 12 owned by Exelon and Unit 2 owned by I think it's 13 FirstEnergy. So do we have two companies guarding the 14 reactor site?
15 MR. HOLLCRAFT: So right now, the status 16 quo is that Unit 1 as an operating reactor has a 17 protective area. And therefore, they protect --
18 there's an MOU between Unit 2 and Unit 1 for them to 19 protect Unit 2. Something they will have to work out 20 in the future between the licensees and approved by us 21 is how security will go forward for Unit 1 and Unit 2 22 if there are two different licensees.
23 MR. DIMITRIADIS: Can I just say one 24 thing? I had this security group a couple years ago.
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85 And no matter how many companies there are, they 1
maintain the security requirements as they're outlined 2
in the regulations. And we inspect that annually.
3 MR. PORTZLINE: My comment is I see a 4
problem with having just one company. And the concern 5
is the illegal dumping or transferring of irradiated 6
systems, components, liquids to Unit 2. And if you 7
think something like that can't happen, Three Mile 8
Island has a long history of security problems. In 9
fact, it was Three Mile Island that brought security 10 to the attention of this nation before it even had the 11 accident.
12 And it resulted -- what happened was there 13 were two competing guards groups down there and they 14 were each harassing the other one, stealing gates and 15 keys and all sorts of things. And two of the guards 16 went to Washington, D.C.
and triggered an 17 investigation by the General Accounting Office.
18 Now I've done a lot of research on this.
19 So I'm just pointing out to you that almost anything 20 can happen, including right after the Three Mile 21 Island accident, at the Surry plant in Virginia, two 22 reactor operators sabotaged new fuel assemblies.
23 Anything can happen.
24 I see it best that there actually be two 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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86 guard companies guarding each territory because what's 1
to stop a company from bribing some guards to say, 2
hey, we can save ourselves 30,000 dollars if you just 3
let us dump this little piece radiated metal. Hand it 4
to Unit 2. Nobody will know the difference.
5 I can't see going with just one company.
6 There's no guarantees. There's a lot of falsification 7
that goes on with companies and even with guards 8
making their rounds and so forth. I want to see if 9
there's anything else here in my notes.
10 As far as inspections, Wendy had talked 11 about this. I'm not sure I see here. We met about 12 four or five years ago in Hershey with the TMI Unit 2 13 inspection team. And I asked, how much radiation is 14 being released from Unit 2? Because there's a very 15 small amount that does get released each year.
16 It took them over 15 minutes to answer the 17 question, and I had to press for an answer so many 18 times that they darn near threw me out of the meeting.
19 In fact, the emergency responders showed up at that 20 time. I think Gene still remembers me telling that 21 story.
22 But the point is when they finally huddled 23 two or three times and came back with an answer. And 24 this meeting was being transcribed, court reporter.
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87 The woman who signed off on the document and couldn't 1
recall, held up her hand to make a zero sign, zero.
2 And she didn't want that to go on the record. That's 3
why she held her hand. That wasn't correct. She 4
didn't know, yet she's the one that signed off.
5 So I don't trust these promises of how 6
things will be safe. And I can tell you more stories, 7
but I think there's more important things that some 8
other people would like to say here. I'd like to hear 9
from Rich Janati. I see him. Where'd he go? Rich is 10 with the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental 11 Protection and he is in the Radiation Protection 12 Bureau. All right. Thank you.
13 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. Okay. Next up, 14 please, sir.
15 MR. ALLARD: Good evening, everybody.
16 Dave Allard, A as in apple, L-L-A-R-D. I'm the Deputy 17 Secretary for Waste, Air, Radiation and Remediation.
18 Just to Scott, to your point, we do, do environmental 19 surveillance around the power plants. Under Act 147, 20 we do emergency response. PEMA is here. BP is here.
21 We are on site with the NRC on a regular 22 basis. Our annual reports are online. It goes back 23 20 years -- 40 years, 40 years to '79. Independent 24 monitoring, we have all our radiation monitors, all 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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88 our air samples around the plant. And if anybody has 1
any questions, we're here to answer them. Thanks.
2 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you for that. Okay.
3 MR. EPSTEIN: Eric Epstein. I'd like to 4
take exception to some of the comments that were made.
5 I don't know if you were intentionally trying to 6
mislead or you frankly are just unaware. No corporate 7
money has gone into the decommissioning fund. That's 8
all ratepayer money. Those are ratepayer tariffs that 9
are regulated by the Pennsylvania Public Utility 10 Commission.
11 The money that's in the decommissioning 12 fund is not corporate money. Just so you know how it 13 works, the money is segregated in Nevada because 14 that's where they get tax breaks. The corporate 15 profit goes to Illinois, and the waste is in 16 Pennsylvania.
17 And the reason it's to Nevada because the 18 tax structure there is more appealing to the company.
19 They're managing the money under regulation, and 20 you're correct, by a bank. And we look at them every 21 year. And the bank, it's a certain fee and restricted 22 to what they can invest in. But you have no power to 23 compel them to raise the money.
24 In fact, let's be honest here. When 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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89 you're talking about insurance, this is what's going 1
to happen. It happened at TMI-2. It happened at 2
Oyster Creek. They're going to reduce -- at TMI, they 3
reduced their insurance from one billion to 50 4
million. They did the similar thing at Oyster Creek 5
in January of this year. I guaran-damn-tee at TMI 6
one, as soon as it goes into SAFSTOR, they're going to 7
reduce their insurance.
8 You don't have the ability to make a 9
difference when a reactor is no longer generating 10 electricity or profit. This is a state that went 11 through the anthracite experience. Once a plant no 12 longer operates, they're not going to pay anything to 13 anybody at any time. So let's be clear.
14 Price-Anderson is only in the event of an 15 accident. That's different. If you look at the 16 annual reports, it'll tell you exactly how much money 17 they have on site to protect themselves. Secondly, 18 I'd like to point out that the CBO and GAO on two 19 different occasions, the GAO and CBO on one occasion 20 harshly criticized the NRC for the way they regulate 21 and their oversight of nuclear decommissioning. It's 22 also in my brief.
23 This is clear that over the years, and let 24 me give you an example. You arrange for the minimal 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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90 amount. For the minimal amount, not the medium 1
amount, not the maximum amount, the medium amount 2
hoping that everything is unicorn and pink Lifesavers.
3 Reality doesn't work like that. So what 4
I'd like to point out, and again, I'm happy to have a 5
discussion with you. We've already at Peach Bottom 1 6
and TMI-1 see what happens when you -- and I think you 7
were talking about it. You visit these casks every 8
two years.
9 What we've asked for is remote temperature 10 detectors, helium detectors. And based on our 11 experience at TMI-2, we've seen with a new whole dry 12 cask corrosion occur in Idaho. And I further dispute 13 you saying you don't take anything out of the 14 decommissioning funds. We allowed people at TMI-2 to 15 take money, and they can, from the decommissioning 16 funds to repair gaskets in Idaho.
17 Moreover, we're here tonight because 18 Exelon is requesting to raid the decommissioning fund.
19 It's not only to pay for spent fuel casks. They want 20 to waive the 30-day pre-notification period. Unless 21 you missed something, what these guys are saying to 22 you, we don't even want to notify you when we withdraw 23 the money. We want to the ability to raid the 24 decommissioning fund which by the way is underfunded 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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91 by 331 million dollars now for a minimal level. I 1
mean, this is bizarre.
2 I think -- I forget the well-dressed guy.
3 You were talking about the enforcement stuff. I read 4
my nuclear newspaper this morning. I happen to think 5
that the enforcement since the ROP has come to mean 6
little to nothing. It has the full force of a 7
sparrow's fart.
8 What I read this morning is that, what was 9
it, in Kansas where you caught folks falsifying data 10 and you opted to fine them zero. I don't know how 11 more egregious it gets. But when I belonged to the 12 American Nuclear Society, the headline this morning --
13 just this morning, operators not fined for falsifying 14 material. That happened this morning.
15 So when you tell me you're going to take 16 enforcement action against a dormant plant that may be 17 owned by a limited liability corporation, I'm done 18 with bedtime fairytales. It's not reality.
19 Let me point something else out to you.
20 And again, perhaps you knew it or didn't know it. And 21 I want to go through this because I don't want to say 22 Mr. Turtle -- Mr. Tuttle?
23 MR. TURTIL: Turtil, but Turtle is fine.
24 MR. EPSTEIN: No, Turtil?
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92 MR. TURTIL: Turtil.
1 MR. EPSTEIN: Okay. Thank you. But I 2
couldn't take the opportunity not to have fun with 3
that name. At any rate, what I did and this is in my 4
brief too. These are what you don't calculate. I'm 5
just going to run through these. This is the NRC's 6
generic boilerplate formula. This is what you don't 7
calculate when you calculate decommissioning.
8 You do not count regional labor cost, 9
compensatory cost and measures for the loss of 10 institutional knowledge, or the replacement of 11 historical knowledge. You do no factor aging, 12 corrosion, embrittlement for y our SSE costs. You 13 don't look at that until two years before actual 14 decommissioning.
15 You don't look at federal monetary policy 16 regarding interest rates and changing tax protocols 17 relating to decommissioning funds. Don't look at it.
18 Believe me. The company does look at it. In addition 19 to that, you don't look at escalated values for 20 security cost, for transportation, and for dry cask 21 construction.
22 Let me give you an example. I'm in a 23 school board this year due to the tariffs. We spent 24 350,000 dollars more for aluminum and iron. This is 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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93 reality, folks. So do you think that the dry cask 1
costs are fixed? No, it doesn't happen. You guys 2
don't factor values for inflation, stagflation, 3
recessionary cycles which occur every seven years 4
unless you live in North Korea, or stay or federal 5
protocols related to this.
6 Three Mile Island we keep saying is an 7
island in a river that leads into the Chesapeake Bay.
8 They have to comply with Chesapeake Bay remediation, 9
site run-offs, stormwater fees per the Clean Water Act 10 and municipal. This is something they have to do.
11 They have to pay for it. You choose not to regulate 12 that because that falls under the bundle of site 13 restoration.
14 Who compels them to pay money to comply 15 with regulations when you have absconded from your 16 regulatory duties? The state maybe. There's only so 17 much that Rich can do. There's only so much that Dave 18 can do.
19 In addition to that, there are no plans or 20 cost factors for hazardous waste, institutional waste, 21 any kind of waste. By the way, those are a premium to 22 dispose of hazardous waste, caustic waste, chemicals, 23 all those things not factored into your escalation.
24 Let me just point to something that you 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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94 may not be aware of, and I don't want to see kind of 1
like a decommissioning bully. The company that they 2
use is TLG, Thomas LaGuardia. TLG was bought by NRG.
3 That's a reality.
4 Exelon, I don't know if they've told you 5
but they've told us they're no longer going to use 6
TLG. So all their decommissioning costs are baked 7
internal. That's the reality. So the costs that you 8
guys are going to monitory to make sure they're 9
complying with the law are baked internal.
10 So now you're going to regulate rates 11 baked internally by the company rather than have an 12 independent entity report it to you. And I don't 13 really believe you guys are independent. So I mean, 14 the core assumption here about how much is going to be 15 there to decommission is now being made by the company 16 and not an independent entity.
17 Also because somebody I think -- I don't 18 want to say attacked but had concerns about the 19 veracity of what I have to say. It took us about a 20 month to put this together. It's 37-page document 21 with 11 enclosures. I strongly have talked to Mr.
22 Turtil about looking at it.
23 But we've met with AmerGen who used to own 24
-- if you remember the ownership here is pretty 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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95 freaky. We went from GPU. We actually went from 1
Metta to GPU to GPU Nuclear to AmerGen which by the 2
way was owned 50 percent by a foreign company which is 3
a smart move. And then after that to Exelon. And so 4
during this period, we met with each iteration.
5 So they delayed the construction of spent 6
fuel management, all right, until 2019. So they 7
created an artificial crisis here. Just to give you 8
an idea of what they did, and this is documented, they 9
re-racked spent fuel from 2002 to 2009. That's a 10 fact. By mid-2003, they documented that for us as 11 they put 2016 re-racked cells. They were installed.
12 By 2009, another 432 re-racked fuels were installed.
13 And we're talking about storing fuel that high burn-up 14 capacity. It's a different kind of fuel.
15 The world has changed. I've seen none of 16 this in the PSD -- whatever you want to call it, none 17 of these factors. I guess my concern is you have a 18 boilerplate approach here. And I'm not sure that it 19 takes into consideration site specific challenges.
20 The final comment I wanted to make and I'm 21 not really sure who to direct it to. And I'm not sure 22 if we're going to get responses back to the comments 23 we made today. You continue to ignore TMI-2. All 24 right. Let me just put things in perspective.
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96 That plan operated 90 days, 1/120th of its 1
life span melted down. All right. Two and a half 2
times over budget, five years behind schedule.
3 When we talk to funding, let's talk to the 4
core issue. We here in this auditorium in 1981 5
supported Governor Thornburgh's 987 million dollar 6
bailout of TMI-2. I don't know if you remember this, 7
but at the time of the TMI-2 accident, there were no 8
decommissioning funds. I don't know who the brilliant 9
bean counter was, but there was no funding in place.
10 So we've already spent an estimate of 11 about two billion dollars for a plant that operated 12 for, what, three months and has not been cleaned up 13 yet. So the -- and I think we talked about this. I 14 don't know if Neal is here. On the webinar, there's 15 an MOU. Are you aware of that, between FirstEnergy 16 and Exelon which basically says if TMI-1 is not 17 cleaned up, the TMI-2 cannot be cleaned up.
18 I just want to emphasize whatever decision 19 you make basically is a decision on TMI-2. I think 20 it's fundamentally manifestly unfair that we're even 21 discussing delaying the cleanup of TMI-2 to 100 years 22 after the accident. I mean, it's --
23 (Applause.)
24 MR. EPSTEIN: The reality is I think a 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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97 sense of fairness, fair play for the people around 1
here is that we get to it right now. You have the 2
workers. They have the expertise. Why not use them?
3 So again, I don't want to murder your last 4
name. I committed to work with those two gentlemen 5
and I'm happy to work with them to get some of this 6
data straight. Your numbers aren't working right now.
7 It won't work out. I plead with you. Do not allow 8
Exelon to raid the fund. And please under all 9
conditions, make sure they have to have pre-10 notification. If you go down this pathway, it's like 11 allowing a bank robber to guard your security box.
12 Thanks.
13 (Applause.)
14 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. So next we have 15
-- double check. Anyone who has not yet spoken want 16 to speak? Just making sure. All right. Next we have 17 Mr. Gene Stiles. What fun and games we're having.
18 All right. Whenever you're ready, sir.
19 MR. STILES: This will be quick. I just 20 want to commend all the speakers for our side tonight 21 who did a good job for the last 40 years, okay, all 22 you ladies and gentlemen. Eric has so many facts and 23 figures, it's just amazing.
24 I used to work for the State House, and I 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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98 had the honor 30 years ago or however it was of 1
writing the -- taking Governor Casey's low level 2
nuclear storage bill -- waste storage bill that was 3
required by the federal government to set up a compact 4
and redoing it to make it work. But I made sure 5
there's 120 minutes in there made it die a death by 6
1,000 cuts over the next six years. All right. It's 7
a perfect piece of legislation to do that. It never 8
had been built in Pennsylvania.
9 Here's what, you say that the whole thing 10 is going to stay the same you have these facts and 11 figures as it exists now. But guess what? We have 12 Three Mile Island accident. We have Chernobyl. You 13 have Fukushima. There's another accident or two just 14 in the pipeline coming to the United States.
15 What happens when that occurs? The whole 16 framework of the decommissioning funds changes because 17 at that point, they will want to use that money to 18 help out for an accident or whatever. There's nothing 19 sacred about keeping that money as it is. My point is 20 this. All right. How many people work at the NRC 21 right now?
22 MR. WATSON: 2,900.
23 MR. STILES: 2,900? Okay. How many fuel 24 rods are down there right now?
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99 MR. WATSON: 1,900, something like that, 1
1,700.
2 MR. HOLLCRAFT: Approximately 1,500.
3 MR. STILES: So I've been to a lot of 4
these meetings. This is my last freaking meeting like 5
this. Okay. We have the people up from Washington.
6 Take each of those fuel rods, stick them up your ass, 7
and leave town. Bye.
8 MR. KLUKAN: So actually generally 9
speaking, assuming the profanity is aimed at us and 10 it's not hate speech, I'm okay with it. Trust me.
11 Other meetings I've gotten far worse. But we will add 12 that to the transcript. Anyone else who has not yet 13 spoken or we have time remaining? So please.
14 MS. SMITH: I'm Patty Smith. I live in 15 Susquehanna township. I have a question about 16 security. Right now how far does Exelon -- how far 17 beyond the fence are they in charge of security while 18 they're operating?
19 MR. DIMITRIADIS: So every licensee --
20 every licensed facility has an owner controlled area 21 and a protected area. And the licensee is mandated to 22 protect the protected area. They also monitor the 23 owner controlled area for early warnings. We can't 24 talk about a lot of details in security for obvious 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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100 reasons. But I'll see if I can answer any specific 1
questions.
2 MS. SMITH: Once it goes into SAFSTOR, it 3
is my understanding that there are security retreats 4
to the fence line. And then it becomes taxpayer 5
funded to secure the area outside. We have to provide 6
the emergency management, police, all of that. Is 7
that correct?
8 MR. DIMITRIADIS: So there's a lot to 9
unpack there. You have two questions. One is 10 emergency response. The other one is security. The 11 licensee is required to pay for security, and they do 12 that. The owner controlled area, sometimes depending 13 on what they want to do as far as see all the property 14 or pieces of it. They can negotiate with local buyers 15 and so forth. For emergency management, it depends on 16 the contracts and the agreements that they have with 17 the local communities.
18 MS.
SMITH:
But is the company's 19 responsibility diminished during SAFSTOR versus as it 20 is running?
21 MR. DIMITRIADIS: I'm not sure what you're 22 asking. But there are certain assumptions that are 23 being -- that are made for ISFSI, for independent 24 spent fuel storage installations. And the licensees 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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101 are required to maintain security. And I have to tell 1
you without getting into details, it's very robust.
2 MS. SMITH: Right. But is it the same as 3
it is when they're in operation?
4 MR. DIMITRIADIS: The level of security is 5
6 MS. SMITH: And the distance from --
7 MR. DIMITRIADIS: Well, the distance 8
changes because of the assumptions for postulated 9
attacks and things like that. So it does change. It 10 may get smaller. But the level of security is the 11 same. And I don't want to go into detail --
12 (Simultaneous speaking.)
13 MS. SMITH: So it's the municipality's 14 responsibility then to take up the difference between 15 16 MR. WATSON: No.
17 MS. SMITH: You're saying no?
18 MR. WATSON: No, the owner owns the 19 property.
20 MS. SMITH: Could you speak into the 21 microphone?
22 MR. WATSON: Oh, I'm sorry. I thought I 23 was. The owner of the licensee is responsible for 24 maintaining the property and the plant in a safe and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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102 secure position situation.
So the security 1
requirements remain in place whether the plant is 2
operating or shut down.
3 The security footprint may change, such as 4
a vital area as we call it, may change quite a bit 5
because you no longer have an operating reactor. It's 6
not just fuel in a spent fuel pool. So it will 7
change. But there's no gap in between the local 8
police and the security for the site. The security 9
for the site remains basically the same.
10 MR.
DIMITRIADIS:
And I
had the 11 opportunity to visit a site in Connecticut last month 12 that used to have a reactor site. It was dismantled, 13 decommissioned. And what they have now is an area 14 where they have the independent spent fuel storage 15 installations, the ISFSI casks in a protected area 16 with security and so on.
17 And there's no buildings. I mean, they 18 have an administrative building. It looks like a 19 house basically. And then they have security which I 20 won't get into, and it's a much smaller footprint if 21 that's what you're asking, yes.
22 MS. SMITH: It is. And then you had 23 mentioned earlier that you don't want to comment on 24 allowing Exelon to raid the decommissioning fund 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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103 because it's in progress, your decision. My question 1
would be generically why would you allow that?
2 MR. WATSON: I think the issue is, is that 3
they made a request for an exemption to be able to use 4
the decommissioning fund for also for spent fuel 5
management. Is that correct?
6 MR. TURTIL: Yeah.
7 MR. WATSON: And so the NRC is evaluating 8
that request for an exemption. It's not a raiding of 9
the funds.
10 MS. SMITH: Right.
11 MR. WATSON: If we approve it, it'll be 12 with our approval.
13 MS. SMITH: Right. Why would you approve 14 that when they have not gone down that path, if there 15 are other plans and they have received millions and 16 millions of dollars in the past for that purpose but 17 chose not to use that money for that purpose?
18 MR. WATSON: I think we did approve it for 19 Oyster Creek.
20 MR. TURTIL: We have in --
21 MR. WATSON: Yeah.
22 MR. TURTIL: I want to say five or six 23 instances --
24 MR. WATSON: Yeah.
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104 MR. TURTIL: -- where we have approved a 1
request.
2 MS. SMITH: But my question is why?
3 MR. TURTIL: So why? So the NRC will look 4
at the decommissioning trust fund. These are funds 5
for radiologic decommissioning only. We would look at 6
such funds and in some cases, I'll give an example, 7
8 There's markedly beyond levels of funds 9
within the decommissioning trust that one would say, 10 maybe we could use these funds with NRC approval.
11 Should we retain enough funding for radiologic 12 decommissioning to look at some other -- some 13 radiologic related such as spent fuel management and 14 nonradiologic such as site restoration. NRC will 15 consider that exemption request. So it's within our 16 authority.
17 MS. SMITH: I understand it's within your 18 authority. My question is when they've already been 19 paid for that, why would you allow them to be paid 20 again and then --
21 MR. WATSON: We don't know that they've 22 been paid before. They have lots of plants where they 23 have gotten money from the Department of Energy. In 24 most cases, plants transfer the spent fuel or do spent 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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105 fuel management activities and then provide a bill or 1
sue the Department of Energy for the reimbursed money 2
since there is no permanent disposal site for the fuel 3
to go to.
4 So I don't know the specifics on this 5
particular one. But I know of a number of plants 6
where they go ahead and put the spent fuel in 7
decommissioning and spent fuel into a dry fuel storage 8
facility and then they go back to the Department of 9
Energy and ask for their money back.
10 MS. SMITH: Okay. So if that happens to 11 play out exactly like you said, are you going to 12 require them to put the money back into the 13 decommissioning fund once they successfully sue the 14 federal government and get reimbursed for that?
15 MR. WATSON: I don't know.
16 MR. TURTIL: The logistics of that, I'm 17 not familiar enough with. But it's a very good 18 question for us to look into, so --
19 MS. SMITH: And at what point will the 20 public be able to weigh in on this topic before you 21 decide to allow it or not allow it since it affects 22 us?
23 MR. WATSON: Unfortunately, exemptions, 24 the process is not a public issue where you can 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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106 comment on. If it was a license amendment, it would 1
be.
2 MS. SMITH: Even though it's public funds?
3 MR. WATSON: It's State of Pennsylvania 4
ratepayers' money, but --
5 MS. SMITH: So you're saying it's 6
ratepayer money but ratepayers have no voice in it.
7 Is that what you're saying?
8 MR. WATSON: Not according to the NRC 9
regulations. Now the state could weigh in if they 10 chose to.
11 MS. SMITH: So you will not have a public 12 meeting on that decision?
13 MR. WATSON: No.
14 MS. SMITH: And we have no recourse?
15 MR. WATSON: I don't think so. I don't 16 live in the state.
17 MS. SMITH: Could you speak into the 18 microphone.
19 MR. WATSON: Sorry. I don't know. It's 20 all up to whether your state wants to weigh in on it 21 or not. I mean, that's the only option I know of.
22 Okay.
23 MS. SMITH: And what is the time frame for 24 this decision?
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107 MR. POOLE: This is Justin Poole. As 1
stated before, the application came in -- well, 2
actually this one wasn't April 5th like the others.
3 I think it was April 12th that the application came 4
in. We -- yeah, we told the licensee about 12 months, 5
I think. But I can double check.
6 MS. SMITH: So it'll take approximately a 7
year for your decision?
8 MR. POOLE: About.
9 MS. SMITH: And then again is, I'm sorry, 10 April of 2020?
11 MR. POOLE: Yes, so it came in April 2019.
12 So we typically finish our reviews for licensing 13 actions in 12 months.
14 MS. SMITH: Okay. So the only people who 15 have standing I guess to voice their concerns to you 16 is state legislature. Is that what you're saying?
17 I'm just trying to understand how --
18 MR. POOLE: The general exemption process 19 is a licensee for whatever reason, decommission 20 funding or anything that is allowable in our 21 regulations be exempted from. They send in their 22 request. The staff reviews it. The staff either 23 approves it or denies it. And there's no public 24 hearing such as with a license amendment request.
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108 MS. SMITH: Okay.
1 MR. KLUKAN: So it can -- I just want to 2
be clear in our answer. That is generally I'm wearing 3
an attorney hat right now is it can get wrapped into 4
-- if they're inextricably linked, a license amendment 5
request and an exemption such that you can't really 6
pry them apart. Okay? Then that can be subject of a 7
hearing. All right. Or at least that's what's 8
happened in the past.
9 I don't want to get -- because we're 10 getting into hypotheticals now. So I just want to be 11 clear that if you look at, like, our -- go back and 12 look at past atomic safety and licensing board 13 decisions and Commission decisions. You might come 14 across this. And so I want to make you aware there is 15 some history of that. But generally speaking, what 16 they've said is true regarding how exemptions are 17 processed and granted or denied.
18 MS. SMITH: Okay. And one last question.
19 Do you or do you not have the authority to just say to 20 them if you sue the government to be reimbursed, that 21 must be returned to the decommissioning fund?
22 MR. WATSON: I don't know the --
23 MS. SMITH: As a contingency for the 24 approval?
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109 MR. WATSON: I don't know the answer to 1
that.
2 MS. SMITH: Can you please talk into the 3
microphone.
4 MR. WATSON: I'm sorry. I don't know the 5
answer to that.
6 MS. SMITH: Who would? Thank you. I 7
appreciate somebody giving me an honest answer. Thank 8
you.
9 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. So it's 8:19 for those 10 of you keeping score. Anyone else? We're here till 11 up to 9:00 o'clock. So anyone else like to say 12 anything? Anyone? Just raise your hand if you also 13 want to have something to say. I'm not stopping you.
14 I just want to make sure. All right. Anyway, go.
15 MR. PORTZLINE: Scott Portzline, Three 16 Mile Island, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Now the 17 gentleman on the end, I didn't catch your name because 18 you came late.
19 MR. DIMITRIADIS: My name is Anthony 20 Dimitriadis. I'm the branch chief for decommissioning 21 ISFSI and reactor health physics. I apologize for 22 being late today. I was caught up in traffic in 23 Philadelphia and I'm a resident in Philadelphia. And 24 it was unusually bad, so I apologize.
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110 MR. PORTZLINE: Did we meet in King 1
Prussia about five, six years ago?
2 MR. DIMITRIADIS: We may have. That's 3
where I've been working for 27 years.
4 MR. PORTZLINE: Yeah, I was wondering 5
because I had a meeting sitting across the table with 6
about seven or eight of you with my laptop. Was that 7
you showing the weaknesses?
8 MR. DIMITRIADIS: I think so.
9 MR. PORTZLINE: Yes, it wasn't me that 10 released those GPO documents. Do you remember all the 11 questions you were asking me? This is way off the 12 topic, but I'll get to the security issue before. I 13 ended up being threatened with prison time under the 14 Patriot Act. I just wanted to say I had nothing to do 15 with any of that. So if you want the story, we can do 16 that later.
17 So my security issue is, and I know this 18 isn't the NRC's bailiwick. But please urge the 19 Department of Energy and the Department of 20 Transportation to come up with roles that define the 21 conditions exactly of when spent fuel, trains and 22 trucks, transports can move.
23 I live next to two waste routes for high 24 level waste, Route 81 and the railroad that goes right 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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111 underneath 81. I'm 700 feet from two transport 1
routes. So I've seen four instances of rules being 2
broken where high level spent fuel from the military 3
is sitting stationary in an urban area. I've seen 4
another incident, the third day in row of 95 degree 5
days and the high level waste is being moved through 6
Harrisburg when just the previous day in Washington, 7
D.C. the tracks had warped due to the high 8
temperatures.
9 So there's no -- this is what I'm getting 10 at. There are no requirements defining don't move 11 spent fuel under these conditions. Or I should say 12 transports under these conditions.
13 They do talk about some bad weather in the 14 regulations, but the discussion is about how do the 15 emergency responders get there if there's two feet of 16 snow, not why were we moving it with two feet of snow.
17 So please somehow review that and talk to the 18 Department of Transportation and Department of Energy 19 and get that corrected. That's it. Thank you.
20 MR. DIMITRIADIS: Excellent. Thank you.
21 MR. KLUKAN: Thank you. Anyone else like 22 to have --
23 MS. McMILLEN: One really quick question.
24 MR. KLUKAN: You don't have to be that 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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112 quick.
1 MS. McMILLEN: Speaking of security, Dusty 2
McMillen, M-C-M-I-L-L-E-N, the grandmother swimming 3
with her kids in the river. We take boats, not often.
4 But the pontoon boat, the fishing boat, we go really, 5
really up to the fences practically. And I hope we 6
always -- we assume that we're on camera and people 7
are watching us. But as far as a terrorist opening, 8
that would be my first choice if I were one.
9 MR. DIMITRIADIS: So I can answer that.
10 And in not very specific terms but absolutely if you 11 think you're not being watched, you're mistaken.
12 MS. McMILLEN: Right. I love it. Thank 13 you so much.
14 MR. KLUKAN: Okay. Would anyone else like 15 to pose any questions or comments. No? Again, I 16 apologize for breaking it up in the beginning. I 17 wasn't certain. You never know in these things how 18 they go.
19 PARTICIPANT: You did a good job.
20 MR. KLUKAN: You don't need to say that, 21 but thank you. All right. So if there's nothing 22 else, then I'm going to turn it over to Bruce to close 23 out the meeting. So thank you all. Again, I 24 appreciate you coming out tonight. Thank you.
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113 MR. WATSON: Again, thank you for coming 1
out tonight. I guess I heard a number -- the staff 2
heard a number of issues or concerns. One is with the 3
exemption
- process, that it's not a
public 4
participation issue. I heard issues about seismic 5
concerns and the safety of spent fuel and other 6
structures.
7 There are obviously financial issues and 8
financial assurance issues and insurance issues that 9
there were plenty of information that was provided 10 about the concerns on that.
11 I also heard about flooding and the safety 12 of the plant with the floods. Also there's issues or 13 concerns about spent fuel storage and of course the 14 transportation of those spent fuel when it's time. I 15 heard issues about health concerns. We also heard 16 from the State of Pennsylvania about their independent 17 monitoring program on that particular area for 18 releases from the site.
19 And I also heard a very strong comment 20 that I think Exelon should take into consideration and 21 that is I heard numerous times that you would like to 22 have the site cleaned up now. So I think that's just 23 a general summary of the big topics I heard.
24 MR. PORTZLINE: Did you mention funding?
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114 MR. WATSON: Yes, I did. Financial 1
assurance is funding. So with that, I'd like to thank 2
you again for coming out. We do listen. We may not 3
always have all the answers, but we try, at least the 4
staff that's here. We're not all financial experts.
5 We're not all technical experts on specific issues.
6 But we can always take those back to the management 7
for their consideration.
8 So thank you all for coming out and have 9
a safe drive home please.
10 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 11 off the record at 8:25 p.m.)
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