ML20033C778
| ML20033C778 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 11/18/1981 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8112040208 | |
| Download: ML20033C778 (74) | |
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0 UNITED STATES
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NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION W
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R COMMISSION DETERMINATION REGARDING PUBLIC DISCL UNDER THE GOVERNMENT IN THE SUNSiiINE ACT OF:
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Budget Session - Markup /Reclama, a.m. Session July 29, 1980 Pursuant to 10 CFR 9.108 (c), the Commission, upon the advice of the General Counsel has determined that ihe subject transcript should be released,to the public in its entirety.
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-l UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION b
BUDGET SESSION - MARKUP /RECLAMA 4
CLOSED MEETING 5
6 Nuclear Regulatory Commission Room 1130 7
1717 H Street, N.
W.
Washington, D. C.
8 Tuesday, July 29, 1980 9
10 The Commission met, pursuant to notice, at 11 9: 45 a.m.
12 BEFORE:
13 JOHN F. AHEARNE, Chairman of'the Commission VICTOR GILINSKY, Coma-issioner 14 JOSEPH M.
HENDRIE, Com iosions:
PETER A. BRADFORD, Commisclonor 15 ALSO PRESENT:
16 L. B2.BRY 17 W.
DIRCKS D. RATHBUN 18 K. CORNELL N. MONACO 19 S. CHILK
. 20
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
This morning we continue _this 3
c.
process.
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4 We have Standards, Admin., EDO and Commission 5 Offices to go through, I believe.
Standa-is being the first 6
one, Len.
7 MB. BARRY:
In our review of standards we followed 8 the PPPG.
The standards came in at PPPG.
As we have 9 indicated before, we have sent them back to take a look at 10 some additicnal areas, particularly in people and 11 particularly in vaste management, which they did.
Then they 12 came in with an increase in people but not an increase in 13 dollars.
We reviewed their budget and we did increase their 14 budget by two people in the was'te aren, taking it from 161, 15 which was the PPPG mark, to 163.
We made no change to their 16 dollar requirement.
17 CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
Then you dropped two people on 18 going to
'8 3?
19 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
I guess my own comment is only I 20 think the dolla r level is reasonable, except when we add.up 21 everything sometime this afternoon, predicated on what we 22 have done over the last few days, we are going to have a 23 pretty high budget.
24 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes, we do.
25 MR. RARRY:
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1 having to cut here and there and you could probably take a 2 few bucks out of Standards without doing any great harm.
3 In people my only apprehension again is that our s
4 totsl budget on people is going to be pretty high.
Cne 5 problem we had with Standards, and we still do, is that ther 6 seem to run about 15 to 18 people short of their 7 authorization perpetually.
Now, you are.only talking two 8 more people over the '81 level, but I just wonder if it is 9
necessary to add another two if you are just never higher up 10 to what they have.
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
That is an interesting point.
12 MR. BARRY4 They just don't seem to be able te do 13 it.
Ncw, Bob, of cource says every time he gets a few
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14 people they get siphoned off'elsewhere.
15 CH AIRM AN AHEARNE :
Yes, I know, but as I recall 16 they have been running about 15 people short for the last 17 couple of years.
18 MR. BARRY:
Right.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
You could add 10 people on by 20 such more aggressive rec ruiting.
21 MR. BARRY:
Agreed.
Other than that, I think they.
22 ha d a darn good budget and well done and certainly 23 justifiable.
24 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Joe?
25 COMMISSIGNER HEND3IE:- I would hold it to 161.
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l The dollar level within the guidance seems okay.
It is up l
2 about 30 percent over what seems to be th e '80 level and 3 apparently will come out to be the '81 level.
4 MR. BARRY:
The '81 level is going to be about 5
6.9.
In fact, it is-6.9.
So it is going to be a $2 million 6 increase.
7 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
It is a $2 million bump, l
8 and I think your comment tha t one might go back and squeere l
9 just a little bit here, it isn't so clear to me, the $2 l
l 10 million.
As a first cut at it, why take 161 and the 8.9.
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11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Peter?
12 COMMISSIONER BR ADFORD s
' Jell, I.would certainly l
13 take the 161.
'4h a t was the basis for the substantial 1
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14 increase in the PPPG quidance, John, do you remember?
s 15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Rulemaking.
16 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD Rulemaking.
l 17 CHAIRMA3 AHEARNE:
A substantial increase of' major 18 rules and trying to get th em to move forward with l
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19 regulations.
l 20 MR.-3ARRY:
And a little increase in waste.
21 MR. DIRCKS:
You can see almost over ' 81 almost a H million dolla rs is in radia tion protection standards.
I 23 attribute a lot to that, about 20, which is a big, massive 24 jump.
25 1R. 3ARRY:
I don't'have any problem with the ALCEP50N REPCMT15G COMPANY. INC.
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2 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
You have a big increa;se'in,the l
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3 siting standards.
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MR. BARRY:
Yes.
S COMMISSIONER HENDEIS:
Well, they have a r ',-
t 6 contractor running on an EIS in there -- well, but let's 7 see, no, but'that has to;be over before
'82, or does it?
8 COMMISSIONER BRAD 70RD:
That depends, I think.
9 (Laughter.)
10 33.,BARRY:
We always have to keep in mind with I
11 standards and in research and so on, even with a: level 12 budget your complete several 71111on dollars worth of 13 actions the year before.
So that means in effect that, say, n
l 14 you had a level budget of T7 millien, a good portion of that ;
15 $7 million in the succeeding year ought to be for some new 16 things, you know, some new standards, some new rules, some l
17 new things.
l 18 We have a phenomena that you never recognize that 19 some contractualzvork is finished in the preceeding year and 20 therefore in effect you have now money to do new things.
21 Every time we talk about new things it is a delta at a level 22 program 23 COMMISSIONER RRAC70RD:
Among the big rules that 24 they have had or are undertaking, emercency preparedness of.
e 25 course is over.
Siting I thought wascsu: posed'to be before se
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs January '82 is their final.
So 3 you are right.
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COMMISSIONER BRAD?ORD:
It may have been June
'82.
f-S CHAIRMAN AHEARNE You are right, June
'82.
So 6 that is half of the fiscal year.
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7 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Degraded core would be ---
b CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Well, their big increases that o
i 9 they have got are siting and radiation protection standards.
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10 MR. BARRY:
4900,000 in radiation protection 11 standards.
5700,000 in siting.
A couple hundred thousand 12 in vaste and about $100,000 in fuel cycle of materials.
13 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I was a little puzzled by k -
14 the' siting one offhand, just because I think the siting 15 rulemaking should be over by 16 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Well, I think it looks, I 17 don't know, deregulatory guides and assorted ---
18 COMMISSIO'NER BRADFORD:
The tip of the iceberg.
'19 COMMISSICNER HENDSIE:
assorted guidance 20 documentation that people will then want.
You make a rule 21 and you say there ought to be a stand-off distance for.a
%! major chemical depots of four miles.
Good.
Nov, you have 23 go t to have three regulatory guides.
24
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25 COMM!SSIONER ERADFORD:
That tends to be the.
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l opposite of Len's point; that is, once a rulemaking is over 2 the budget implications may have already begun.
3 COMMISSIONER HENDFIE:
But the rulemaking itself, 4
particularly if it involves EIS, it often involves a number 5 of contractors to contribute to the work.
Then, of course, 6 once the rulemaking is over then that piece is done.
The 7 quides are a different chunk of stuff.
8 M3. BARRY:
It will perpetuate some action.
As 9
Commissioner Hendrie says, it will perpetuate some action in 10 quides on out for a while.
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
in their submission under 12 siting they include emergency planning and they have 13 developing and issuing the rule for nuclear facilities cther 14 than reactors and developing regulatory guides-for nuclear 15 facilities or nuclear reactors.
16 I guess I could see a red' action of some amount.-
I 17 can see a reduction to 7.9.
18 COMMISSION 23 BRADFURD:
1 would quess that that is 19 ' goin g to work to be fine.
57 only hesitation about. icing it 20 now is that I think once we add all this up we are going to 21 vant to go back and take another look at what we have dene
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22 down the line.
I am sure we'will come out at 7.9 whether we Z3 do it now-or then.
24 COMMISSIONEE HEND9IEs It is just.that if.ve do it 25 now we ought to keep in sind - tha t we have 'alread y.- taken J a ALDERSoN REPCRTING COMPANY, INC.'
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2 MR. BARRY:
I wouldn't go below that for what they 3 have to do.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Well, why don't we stay at 8.9 5 and 161.
6 All right?
7 COMMISEloNER HENDRIE Okay.
That turns out to be 8 9-3 on the bottom line.
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I voald just take again the EDO 10 mark for 83.
11 COMMISSIONER H EN DRIE :
That one would be 16 1 12 and 13 MR. RARRY 8.4 on the bottom line.
14 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE: --- 3.4 on the bottom line..
15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
All righ t.
Admin.
16 MR. BARRYs In Admin. you are talking two things.
17 You are talking as far as far as the Cffice of 18 Administration is concerned a request for six additional 19 people.
Iha t is really it.
Cn dollars, you are talking 20 about AO ; a. support, which is really not an Admin. Office-21 budget.
It is an agency budget.
If you could turn.to, or 22 maybe you have got it on page 4 of 7 in the' Admin. support-U g '. r t cf your package.
Ihat details. the pluses anc minuses 24 and r,1ves you a.better: pet 7pective of-what is ca nsing 'the -
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Which package are you talking 2 about?
3 MR. BARRY:
It would be the administration package f s..
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5 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Oh, administration support?
6 MR. BARRY:
Right.
Then page 4 of 7 details the 7 Admin. support.
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8 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
It is in this package,
9 isn't it, John, or is it?
10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Those'are just the summaries.
11 MR. BARRY:- It is the one that we sent to the 12 Commission.
Use that one.
13 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
This is just the large sire' 1,4 of these.
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15 MR. BARRY:
Hight.
16 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
So you have got it in here 1
l'7 but you have to read little.
18 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Oh, yes.
19 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I thought your eyes were 20 giving out.
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CHAIRMAN'AHEARNE:
I have got it nov.
ZZ MR. 3ARRY:
There you go.
You will see pluses anc 23 minuses, but let me address the pluses.
24 The firstione is transportation of things as 25 compared to
'91.
There is a million three increase' LThat:
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1 is simply because of th e residen t program where we are 2 putting people out on site and because of the new people we 3 are bringing in.
As you. kno w, whenever we hire a technical 4 person we normally will move him from wherever he is located 5 and that is the major reason for that increase.
6 Room and space.
It is on the assumption that we 7 will in fact be located in this building, and the costs per 8 square foot in this building are substantially higher than 9 th e buildings we will be vacating.
So there is a million 10 dollar increase.
11 The telecommunications increase is $2.2 millon.
12 Part of'that it just simply the increased costs that we know 13 about that are coming, and part of it is some of the 14 increase in the Op. center.
15 MR. CORNELL:
One thing on this telecommunications 16 th a t you may want to consider.
I am not sure you have 17 addressed it at this point.
There is about a million'two 18 for these lines of the varicus nuclear power plants.
There 19 is no reason legally why the Commission couldn't_put that 20 cost off on the utilities.- Historically we paid for the 21 installa tion of-those lines and we are _ paying about a ZZ aillion two per year.now.
I think there are cays in which 23 you could perhaps shift those cost over to the utilities if 24 roa wanted to.
We have no plans for that right'nov.
25 CHAI? MAN AHEARNE:
Joe ? -
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MR. CCRNELL4 Historicafly I think what happened 2 is that we want to put them in very quickly and trying to go 3 th a t route-involves a complicated process.
In order to put
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4 them in in a very short order of time we decided to pick up 5 those costs.
6 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I guess I would hang on to 7 it to retain control of the system.
If we retain control 8 and attempt to get them to pay for it, why we are in effect 9 raising their license fees, and I suppose we could do that, 10 but we established those license f ees in a f airly painful 11 process at the time.
We might consider whether the license 12 fees or the license maintenance fees ought to go up to cover 13 these kinds of things.
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14 MR. DIRCKS:
We would never see the benefit of 15 th a t license fee.
16 COMMISSIONER HENDRII:
That just goes to the 17 Treesury.
18 MR. CORNELL:
I think the route you could do_it 19 would be to require as a licensing condition that ther 20 provide a line that comes to NRC.
In other werds, make them 21 provide it directly.
22 COMMISSIONER 334DFORD:
Which in effect would he M the line tha t is already there.
24 MR CORNELL:
They are going to have to be upgraded 25 a t some p oin t down the line.
If you give it as a licensing-
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1 fee in terms of the budgetary politics, we never see the 2
money anyway, so it doesn't make any difference.
3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Joe?
4 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I would hang on it to 5 retsin control.
6 COMMISSIONER AR A D EO R D :
My inclination would be 7.not to hand on to it unless there is something terribly 8 important about our having control that I am somehow 9 o v e rlocking.
10 CH AIRMAN AHEARNE:
I guess where I would come out 11 is at the momen t leave it in the budger, but I think 12 MR. CORNELL: -It is an issue that I think that 13 Stello has prepared.
In terms of the control I think Stello
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14 can address OGC.
15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I certainly wouldn't want to do 16 it in such a way that it ended up that we had co pay for it l'7 some way or another anyway.
We lost tae ability to direct 18 what would have to be put in.
19 MR. CCRNELL:
The other part of that is that'these 20 costs are going to increase'right'now.
21 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE Yes.
I think itfis an issue we 22 are going to have to-face when we cet to the data link'.
-I Z3 foresee a good possibility of trying to.7ske the licensees 24' pay - for a ; substantial part of the data l'.nk anyway, and at 25 th a t time-with the 'appropria te revenue.
Ihat is an issue we O
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13 1 o ugh t to examine, but for the moment I would leave it in the 2 budget.
3 MR. DIRCKS:
We do have to face an upgrading of
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4 those lines before the data link comes due.
5 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs Yes, obviously.
I saw that 6 report.
7 MR. BARRY:
From a pure budget standpoint I rather 3 leave it in there knowing that if we get cut a little bit in 9 admin. support I have got some fall-back.
I may not have, 10 depending, but at least we have got some fall-back.
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs Now, at the previous budget 12 ~ review we asked for EDO to take a look at the transportation 13 or the regional 12ation costs that were embedded in here.
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144 MR. CORNELL:
I am not sure which chart you were 15 quoted off of, but the numbers you were quoting were 16 approprimately correct.
17 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs Yes.
18 MR. CORNELLt What they did is they came in with a 19 number that is double what is in this budget-and we 20 essentially cut it in half thinking, well,-that looks like 21 an ambiticus pecoram and we are not sure it-is-coing to go ZZ on.
23 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
It still looks pretty 24 ambitious.
As I recall, you have got some thing lik e 25 5700,000 in '82 and a million in93.
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1 MR. CORNELL:
That is right.
They came in for 2 about a million and a half to cover the people that are in 3 th e schedule that you were looking at.
4 MR. BARRY:
I am going to have to say that '81 is 5 underpriced.
!t is going to cost us more than 1700,000 in 6
'g1, 7
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
'827 8
MR. BARRY:
No.
I thought you said
'81.
9 CHAIRM AN AHEARNE:
I am talking about the 10 regionalization.
This isn't ins p ecto rs.
This has nothing Il to do with inspecto rs.
12 MR. B ARRY :
I am with you.
13 MR. CORNELLa The numbers that you were quoting
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14 are his latest estimate.
They cam 4 in with the million and 15 a half to cover those numbers.
In our budget review process 16 we said, look, we are still not confident that that many 17 people are going to go.
So we halfed it.
-The money that is 18 in this budget will cover half the people that-you were 19 referring to.
20 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
"J ell, th e people I was 21 referring to came out of the budget submission.
22 MR. CORNELL:
That is righ t, but'this money will 23 cover about~ half of those.
24 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Sc how many will this money 25 cover ?
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MR. CORNELL:
I have got to find the number.
2 MR. DIRCKS:
They have 230 or something.
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'4 regions and not people.
5 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Well, so it is possible that 6 you could cut some money.
That would seem to be one place 7 that you alght be able to get a reduction.
8 Another question on admin.
You, I think, on l
9 ADP ---
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10 MR. BARRY: ADP goes up $2.7 million.
It is Il composed of three pieces.
One is simply the time sharinq l'
12 cost of computers.
Anothe" piece is a little bit of an 13 increase for Denton.
That is not programma tic, about 14 1500,000, and about a million for Ices.
The peak year _for l
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'82.
We go from about a million nine to two million 16 nina, you.know, from '81 to
'82, and then it starts down 17 over the next tv0 years until it becomes orerational.
18 Now, that piece of the admin. support, you know, 19 when we actually go into the Congress with the budget we 20 distribute it.
We usedlto do it stricly on a person-21 distribution.
Ve n o long e r d o t ha t.
-We only distribute-Z! part of the' budget by people, and that is ' supplies, Z3 equipment, communications, et ce te ra, --.s t ce te ra.. Now we 24 ' assien admin'. support to the respective of fice2 where we 25 know theEvork is being done..
As an example, in Ices we vilf
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I actually put the Ices admin. support into the NMSS budget 2 when it goes to Congress because it la safeguards.
In this 3 budget as we do it by decision unit to OMB it will be an 4 admin. support.
That is the reason for 'u.e 52.7 million 5 increase in that line.
6 The next one is document control which is a
.9.
7 As you can see, the office request was much higher than 8 that.
Bill put a cap on that and he has got Norm Haller 9 doing a very thorough review of the document control system 10 to see where we are headed from here and what can be done to 11 put some sort of a control on it, a rational control.
12 My only other comment on that would be that if you 13 talk to the staff.and you really examine the paperwork flow
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14 in this' agency, I don 't know what the hell we would de 15 without that document control system.
'le would be in 16 quicksand.
The growth in this budget is less than a million 17 dollars and there is a 1500,000 increase in training and 18 5300,000 in equipment purchases and that is about it.
If 19 you add those together you have got about $11 million there.
20 You have an additional $2 million in IEE.
Of the 2
$2 million, because of a reduction in the ICE proccam that 22 we have addressed over the past.few days we have cut that by 23 a million as adain. suppor t peculiar to the regions.
24 However, we put 375 back in yesterday for the legislation 25 proposal.
So we have got about a 5600,000 net re' duction.
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17 to-1 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
For the which proposal?
2 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Let's say the proposal that is 3 in front cf us to go to the Congress en getting additional 4
help f or resid ent inspecto rs.
5 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Oh, good.
6 MR. BARRY:
So vi vill come down about 5600,000, 7 or a little over, in admin. support for IEE.
This is one 8 where ve have been fortunate in the past couple of years 9 where particularly the House Appropriations people have 10 recognized the logistics requirement of the agency and ther 11 have taken very, very minor cuts.
In fact, the minor cut in 12,
- 8 1 was simply related to the reduction of people.
They did 13 not reduce our admin. support, and we get pretty good
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14 su p por t out of OME.
It is 3ust costing us more money to run 15 the plant.
16 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes.
I'7 VR. BARRY:
I watch admin. support very, very 18 ca ref ully.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Joe?
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COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I don ' t see any place ' to 21 make bold, slashing reductions.
I think when we get.all 22 th rough and they want to come back and squeeze a million out 23 of it and ask the E00 to distribute it among these 24 cateocries as he sees fit, cr something like that, for the 25 moment I wouldLjust buy off on~the 53.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Peter?
2 COMMISSICNER BRADFORD:
I think that is right as 3'to people.
The dollar increase is substantial enouch that I 4 think we vill vant~to come back and see what we can squeeze 5 la te r.
I agree with Joe.
Iach individual item seems 6 reasonably well supported but the total increase is pretty 7 substantial.
8 MR. BARRY:
At the risk of being facetious, if you 9 are going to tich ten up on admin. Suppport yo u are going to 10 quit upping people.
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Excuse me?
12 MR. BARRY:
You are going to have to quite upping 13 th e people coun t.
Every time you add another 10 o r 15 i'-
14 people you are squeezing that one tighter.
15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
You mean in the agency-as a 16 whole?
17 MR. BARRY:
Right.
I am just being funny.
You 18 increased 35 people yesterday and I didn't put any more 19 money into admin. support.
20 COMMISSIONER HENDBIE:
Since the budget-is already 21 based on more people than are going to add up here wh'en we 22 g e t through I think we are already ma kin g headway on it.
23 (Lauchter.)
24
-_ CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Lat me fer my colleagues ask 25. wh e the r ' they had looked at this question of. developing an 9
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There is a SECY paper in front of 2 us.
Now, I noticed where the EDO came out was to not 3
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approve the recommendation, but I think to a pprove something 4 like }78,000 for having Oak Ridge investiga te it and going 5 ahead.
Now, I have also endorsed that position, but what 'I 6 would like to suggest is about $80,000 in
'82.
I don't 7 think that if we were to get to the position that the paper 8 proposes we could never make it.
Even if,.it turned out to 9 be positive, why we could never make it on the schedule that 10 they are proposing because it would require beginning 11 arrangings and tniking to students this January.
I think it 12 is at least a year premature.
Perhaps I would put in 13 another $85,000 in the '82 budget.
(
14 COMMISSICNER HENDRIE:
That is essen tially o,n - the 15 vote sheet that comes out the same way.
The proposition is 16 a little too husky to just buy off on in 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> or 24 days 17 for that matter, but going ahead and looking some more at it i
18 is your reaso nable ' thing.
19 I don't know whether the 85 ought to be added to-20 the training budget or taken out of the training budget or-21 added to something else or taken out of something else.
22 CH AIRMAN AREARNE:
I would take it out of the 23 training budget because I think the training budget has a 24 ve ry substantial increase in group and individualftraining.
73 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
That das my thought.
- JERSoN REPCRTING CCMPANY, INC.
es-a 20 1
MR. BARRY:
Hight.
2 COMMISSIONER BR ADFORD:
I hkven't focused on it.
3 CH AIRM AN AHEARNE :
Pardon me?
4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I haven't focused on it, 5 the SECY paper, yet.
6 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
All righ t.
I couldn't really 7 find any other -- I mean, as we come back to squeeze 8
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE4 We could go th rough and 9 take out a few hundred thousand here and a few hundred 10 thousand there and see if that didn ' t add up to a million 11 and a half.
12 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
We could loo ~k at perhaps 13 squeezing and then giving it to the EDC to allocate, but I k
14 think I will take a t least the two votes here to recommend.
15 ve switch 85 out of the training budget into this other item.
16 MR. BARRY:
The only other issue then is the six 17 people for admin. which you will find on the preceding page 18 3 of 7.
Just back up on page and you will see the numbers 19 there, one for licensing plans, three for contracts, one for 20 organizational personnel, a plus two and minus one.
21 COMMISSIONER.HENDRIE:
I didn't have any problem ZI on this one.
23 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
All right, let us now mos? ta 24 th e se n sitive areas.
I quess the dollar question is.no t' an j
25 issue in EDO, is it?
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MR. BARRY:
Is it not.
One of the best sheets I 2 think for you to look at, and there are several you can, but, 3 richt up front in the second page of your other book, the
(--
4 one ycu were just looking at, Mr. Chairman, I think it is 5 the sacond page which gives you a complete personnel summary.
6 It looks lik e this.
(Indicating.)
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
There is a chart under EDO.
8 MR. BARRY:
Page 1 of 11.
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Right.
10 MR. DIRCKS:
The two issues are OElD and 11 Mich aelson 's o f fice.
12 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I quoss on Michaelson's office, 13 I am a little uneasy at the growth rate we have got cranked
(=
14 into tha t.
I would have gone for 30 in '82 and 40 in
'83.
15 MR. DIRCKS:
Ne went through Michaelson's office 16 and we did limit him almost, I think, to those numbers.. He l'7 came in and made a passionate plea not only along 18 prog ra m m a tic lines but he act into symbolic lines that this 19 would be a signal to the agency that the Commission was 20 already backing down in the whole area.
21 CH AIRMAN AHE ARNE:
I don't understand wh y we-would 22 he backing down.
If you are 20 now and you went tof30 and 23 t h e n to 40 how is that a backing do wn ?
7.4 MR. DIRCKS:
He called in person and the emotion 25 that he.put into this speech influet.ced-me to let him go ALDERSON ' 1EPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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2 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Symbolism aside, what 3 von't get done?
(
4 MR. DIRCKS:
I am not quite sure.
He was not able 5 to say what won't get done.
6 (Laughter.)
7 MR. CORNELL:
The thing about AEOD la that they 8 are in a reactive mode.
They have reacted to. analysis, and 9 I think with f ewer people ycu just get fewer products out of 10 them.
Right now they can't tell you what the (inaudible).
11 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Has he hired up to his 12 present ceiling?
13 MR. CORNELL:
He is up to I think within one or 14 two.
15 MR. BARRY:
There are two more to go.
16 MR. CORNELL:
He had asked us for an increase in 17
'81.
He wan ted to go up to 27 in
'81.
18 CH AIRMAN AHEA RNE:
Do you he will be able to get 19 tha t in '81?
I think the issue there would be if you think 20 it is reasonable for him to get to 27 in
'81,
. hen I would 21 be less concerned about the growth ino'82.
3 MR. CORNELL:
I think he can get to 27 in-'91 if 23 he stands up quite quickly.
24 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
No, I didn't mean.that. 'You 25 see, one cfomy problems with tne way AEOD is working at.the ALDERSON RE?ORTING COMPANY. INC,
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v 1 moment is that you say they are in a reactive mode, that p
2 is true, but he has this very horirontal structure tha t he 3 has described to us which he is going to maintain with 40 4 also.
There is going to come some point where I am not sure 5 whether the products are going to start coming out.
I am a 6 little uneasy about that.
7 If your intent was to try to reprogram within the 8 staff to get him to 27 or 28 in '81 then the growth afforded 9 in ' 8 2 would n ' t be as bad.
If i t isn't and he stays at 22 10 for '81 and then jumps to 40 that I don't think is warranted.
11 MR. CORNELL:
I don't think we have reached a 12 decision.
My inclination was to try and raise his ceiling 13 in '82 (inaudible.)
14 MR. DIl "?3:
I would be inclined to let him go up 15 to 27 in '91 if I could some slots around to move into 16 that.
That, as you know, is very difficult to do.
I'7 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Well, I guess it makes 18 sense to me if he is going to u0 in '83 anyway to go there 19 more or less in steps rather than jumps.
If. he is talking
. 20 about 25, 26 or 27 in '81 then I would go to 32 or 33 and
' 21 th en the rest of the way.
Z2-COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:. I would going to say'I 23 wouldn't object to listing him~ to going into CMS at an 24 office ' strength of 40 for '82 with the understanding that if-25 we got some-trinming out of CMS, why that would be the place ALDERSON. REPORT 1NG COMPANY, INC.
gz 1 one would back down five or six or seven odd slots.
If you 2 also wanted to provide an intermediate step on the way up, 3 it wouldn't seem unreasonable to me.
I think tha t it ought
,~
4 to be 33 anyway because if wa vant to push the office th e re 5 is probably enough of a float in slots to allow him to staff 6 to something like 27 odd in
'81.
Then he will in effect 7 have borrowed those slots and they will only become 8 permanently his in '82 and then you would like to allow an 9 additional increment that he can staff in
'82.
10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I am going to go to tne 33.
I 11 would rather not on the symbolism go to CMB and then take an 12 OMB cut in that office because then it looks like an 13 explicit trade of relative value amongst these other
(
14 offices.
So I would rather go in at 33'and then hold tight.
15 COMMISSIONER BRADEORD:
That is fine with me.
16 Coes anybody have a feel for how many man-years it 17 takes for something like the review he will do of Browns 18 Ferry?
What part of his office does that tie up for how 19 lonc?
20 MR. DIRCKS:
I don't know.
I knew he had a couple 21 of people at Crystal River, one down there and two or three U total.
23 COMMISSIONER ERADFORD:- So it is as much as a 24 man-year to do Crystal 31ver.
25 MR. DIRCKS:
N o',
I don't think a ~ full man-year
' ALDERSoN REPORTING CCMPANY, INC.'
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2 COMMISSIONER HENDFIE:
Browns Ferry will take one 3 to two man-years I would think because that has interesting g-
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4 aspects over a whole batch of boiling water reactors,.and if 5 you think about four people kicking it around for six 6 mon ths, why there are two man-years.
That is not an 7 unreasonable figure.
8 MR. CORNELL:
I would guess he has spent already 9
on Browns Ferry, just off the top of my head, between half 10 and one aan-year.
11 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:
As you get up toward 40 12 people then he certainly will have beefed up his capability 13 to do a lot more with routine LER's, but if we in fact start 14 having enough serious events to consume the man-years, then 15 we have much more serious problems then getting him 40 16 people.
17 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes, that is true.
That is 18 right.
19 (Laughter.)
20 MR. DIRCKS:
You know, what I gathered in talking 21 to him is, sure, the big events do siphon off people,-but he 22 also places a lot of emphasis on the sort of drudgery type 23 of f ollowing of LER's and trying to piece together pa tterns 24 of hehavior that.may lead to~ indicators o'f things of a J
25 generic nature which nay be-worth-following.up on.
So that is wher.e his sort of routine work:is..
'4 hen an event like ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY..'INC.
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1 3rowns Ferry comes along it just pulls people off.
2 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
What is his mechanism for 3 notifying NRR and ICE and us at the time?
4 MR. DIRCKS:
He has a system set up, and I have 5 seen some of it, and I don 't know whether we have sent any 6 down here, where he do'es put out a memorandum.
7 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD.:
- 4 hen his routin e reviews 8 show something of interest?
9 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes.
It indicates some background of 10 issues and follow-up recommendations.
He does have a 11 system and he has turned out several of these things.
12 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
There is no question as far as 13 the dolla r support is concerned.
(
14 On ELD we had' into OMB at 106. ~We had done with 15 the President 's budget at 106.
EDO is marked at 106.
I 16 would p opose to keep the 106.
Engle'hardt has given some 17 addition data on the support for that.
I think it is 18 certainly true that the legal demands are not decreasing, 19 thei are increasing.
20 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I have no basis for 21 cutting it at this point.
22 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I had asked in one of the 23 questions last week for a response on what would be required 24 for the interpretation of the 401 tha t cane back.up.
25 VR. CCRNELL I h'd th a t paper in my hand last.
ALDERSON REPORTING CCMPANY, INC,
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l 1 night and they pulled it back this morning.
The draft that 2 I had last night talked about two people in EDO and one 3 person in OMB and one person in ELD.
I didn't have the
~.
4 paper long enough to confirm what those numbers are.
5 (Inaudible)
What I am giving you is what the stagnitude of 6 the resources is they are coming up with.
7 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
What are we talking about 8 here, please?
9 CHAIRMAN AHEA ENE :
This is the section 401, the 10 compliance with discrimination as f ar as the licensees 11 (Inaudible).
We had a paper in f ront of us earlier in th e 12 year that had a broad range of options and I think we came 13 down on a narrov interpretation as opposed to one with 14 (Inaudible).
The question is if we do reach the conclusion 15 we are going to have to do that then what kind of personnel-16 resources are required.
What Kevin is saying is that in the 17 initial draft he saw he said two people in (Inaudible.)
18 What abcut DIA?
19 MR. CORNELL:
(Inaudible.)
As I said,.I did not 20 have the paper long enough to ( In audible. )
21 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE.
It-sounds to me like it 22 - exceeds the Commission guidance.
D CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Well, I would go for an 24 additional two in EDO to handle that, but we are already 25 asking for 10 more in' ELD.
Part of the rationale'that ALDERSON REPORTING CCMPANY, INC.
28
(~1 1 Englehardt has is a variety of additional requirements, and 2 I really couldn 't go for us facing OIA witho ut a good, 3 strong (Inaudible.)
As I understand CIA's function it 4 doesn't seem to be the right place anyway.
So ! would 5 propose two for EDO.
6 MR CORNELL:
I would suqqest you make that 7 contingent on us getting a paper from (Inaudible.)
8 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Well, I would have intended so.
9
( La ught er. )
10 MR. CORNELL:
(Inaudible.)
11 COMMISSONER HENDRIE:
My view is that EDC ought to 12 stay at four, and if you have to add two for this 301 13 activity that brings it to six.
C-I4 (Laughter.)
15 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Now, furthermore, I will 16 raise a question.
If you expect anything out of the l'7 proposition, is tha t the right office-to manage it?
18 COMMISSIONCR READFORD:
'4here else would you p ut.
19 it?
20 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
ELD.
21 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE: -Peter?
22 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:
The six is okay.
23.
CHAIRMAN-AHEARNE:
-Not the additional two'for the 24-401?
2S COMMISSIONER RR ADFORD a = Oh, Ilam sorry.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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g9-1 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
See, they have recommended the 2 six.
That was in the absence of ---
3 COMMISSIONER BR ADFORD:
I thought the 401 was in 4 the six.
5 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
No.
6 COMMISSIONER BR ADFORD:
Eight.
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Eight?
8 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:
I guess so.
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Ckay, we go for eight.
I have 10 got two votes.
11 MR. BARRY:
For eight in EDC?
12 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:- Yes.
13 MR..DIRCKS:
Cf course, tha t is a program that can
(
14 be regionalired when we get a-regional program.
15 CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
Oh, definitely, because it is a 16 regional issue.
17 An y other modifica tions to th e - EDO staff offices?
18 MR. BARRY:
Well, we have got that two.for the 19 Small Business you will need to add ress.
20 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Well, but that is in the EDO 21 mark.
ZZ
- R.
HARRY:
Oh, yes.
23 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
He w clea rly compelled is 24 th a t Small Business thing?
25-CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
I think it is very clearly ALO8RSON REPCRTING COMPANY. INC.-
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2 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Does it compell two 3 full-time governmen t em plo y e es ?
4 (Laughter.)
5 MR. CORNELL:
The first two are the two that were 6 in the paper.
The second two are the draft (Inaudible).
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
It looks like one instead of 8 tw o.
9 MR. CORNELL:
The OIA I think as they, envisage 10 there is going out and investigating.
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes, I know.
I think it is 12 option three.
So instead of going to eight it would be to 13 seven.
14 MR. CORNELL:
No, option three is where the 15 Secretary of Labor (Inaudible. )'
16 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes.
17 MR. CORNELL:
(Inaudible.)
18 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I think this Small B usiness 19 thing is required in the law.
Now, vould youtsay does it 20 require two full-time government employees?
I would quess 21 that if you want to carry out the' spirit of the law, the Z2 intant of the law, it really requires one person plus 23 administrative su p por t.
24 -
COMMISSIONER FENDRIE:
The f ederal women 's pecoram 25 ' opera tes with a professional who garners administrative ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
~
l 3
I support as best she can here and there.
2 (Laughter.)
3 COMMISSIONER HENDPIEs I as more f avorable 4-inclined toward the female half of the population than I am 5 towards Small Business.
6 (Laughter.)
7 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
You know, the amount of 8 activity tha t this agency can legitimately put in in 9 connection with small business initiatives of th e Federal 10 ccrernment doesn't seem to me to require two additional 11
'll-time employees who walk around with badges saying we 12 don't do nothing but small business.
I would look for ways 13 to save those people, as a matter of face.
14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Would you be interested in 15 switching that administrative support to the women's program?
16 COMMISSIONER HENDRIEs There is an interesting I'7 proposition.
Put in two for Small Business and understand 18 that the clerical person, one of the two, is shared between 19 FWP and Small Business.
How about that?
20 MR. CORNELL We wo'uld have to move out to Silver 21 Spring.
ZZ COMMISSIONER HENDPIEs Good.
23 (Lauchter.)
24-MR. CORNELL Either that or have a floa*.ing 25 secretary.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.'
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(Laughter.)
2 CHAIRMAN AHEA RNE:
Why is the Small Business in 3 Silver Spring?
4 MR. CORNELL:
Contracts.
5 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Oh, because of contracts.
6 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Good.
7 (Laughter.)
8 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Put them all in a small 9 office.
10 (Laughter.)
11 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
And if turns out you can?t 12 kcep the Small Business slot filled that won't cut me to the 13 quick.
[
14
( La ugh te r. )
~
15 MR. BARRY:
Of course, they vill be in Bethesda 16 even tually.
You know, people over in Silver Spring vill l'7 either be in Bethesda or downtown.
The contracts people 18 vill be in Bethesda.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE :
3y
'82.
20 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
21 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
One way or the other, but I 22 am not so sure.
23 CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
Well, do'you want to keep the 24 two and suggest that they do share 'the administra tive 25 support?
I thir.k we really have to keep the two.
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MR. DI3CKS :
If you cut iteto one we will get 2 adminiscrative su)pport.
I would hate to have the Commissioni f-3 agoniring over whether Ruth Anderson and the Small Business F
t 4
man is going to share a secretary.
5 (Laughter.)
6 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Peter, any co=ments?
7 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
No, I would be inclined to
/
8 go with the two, but if it is cut to one I wouldn ' t(spcify N.-
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I guess we wi11'
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4
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14 (Commissioner Gilinsky r e c '2 -
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15 at this point at 10:30 a.m)
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16 COMMISSIONER GILIN KC):
No. increases.
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17 (Laughter.)
4<.3.s ;
i-18 COMMISSIONER HENDEIE:
Now that.we have-this other 19 paper just rapidly flashed,at us, what was thelbasis of EE0 i
s
.g sixinthe'ED0lmark?
/ g,j 20 coing from four to L
s is, g c 21 MR. BARRY:
Last year in the A31 'budgetQwhen wet g
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+
22 vent f rom four to six was Title II, Titl'e If the sa'm e e
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-a 23 thing.
OEM didn't sustain-it.and the Congre'ss icnored fii.~
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i 24 But we did go in'in '81 with six.
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h you on one other!s item, the SDC /Ni 25 I.am going to ask e1 m a 1/1 \\
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'l mark.
Do you want to increase international programs by p
s,
2 one?
The EDO mark is 32.
The '81 is 31.
1 Q
3 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Which program?
e 4
MR. BARRYs We are not talking about a very big
'S number.
The international program.
6 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I didn't personally see 7 any cre.nt need to 7o up one there.
Joe, didn't present a 8 very-compelling picture of the going caseload to me.
It is 9 La Fleur: and no Hen d rie.
10 (Latchter.)
11 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I allowed it because th e 12 EDO had allowed it.
My God, if I can stomach two more at 13.EE0 and two Small Business f
\\
14 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
Have we done Small 15 Business?
16 COMMISSIONER BRADFORDs We have sort of done Small 17 Business.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
We are not going to have 19 tvo[in Small Business, are ve?
(Laughter.)
<w s.
b' CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I am picking up an ally.
f.
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!E COMMISSIONER HENDPIE:
Yes, picking up support.
-i,.
a
( ).
U-Where - were you when I needed you?-
s lT 24 (Laughter.)
s
/
25
'CH AIRM AN AHEA RNE :
I think we vill-stick with the I
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35
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1 EDO mark of two.
2 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
You have the support of 3 the judicial system in th a t.
An appellan t court is evenly 4 divided.
The lower court is (Inaudible.)
5 (Laughter.)
6 CH AIR MA N ~ A HEA RNE :
Well, any further words on the 7 Smali Business?
It seems te be tie.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I say half.
9 (Lauchter.)
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Can't you have somebody 11 who is only a part-timer?
12 CHAIRMAN AH EA RNE :
I don't believe that meets 13 th e
(
14 COMMISSIO.iER GILINSKY:
What does the law say?
15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Shall estab.lish an office.
16 MR. BARRY:
A distinct office.
You know, it has l'7 to be apart from contracts.
13 '
. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I don't see why it has to
'9 be more than one person.
20 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I am willing to establish a 21 distinct office.
I am willing to have, by God, a gold leaf 22 sign on the-door.
23 (Laughter.)
24 COMMISSIGNER HENDEIE:
1:ov I want to discuss b whether there ir _ anybody permanently assigned to de' no thing ll' ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY, INC.
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2 (Laughter.)
3 CHAIRM AN AHEARNE:
There are many laws of Congress
-s 4 that we may not like, but when they pass the law it is 5 really cdd for a regulatory agency +: o then try to figure out 6 how can we bend the in:er etation of the law.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs I think we have got to 8 comply wi th the law.
There is no question about that.
The 9 question is having one person who spends half his time doing-10 it 11 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Or two people who spend 12 full time.
13 CH AIRM AN :. I don 't think a person spending half 14 th e time com plies with the law.
+
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Wb7 is thct?
16 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Let just ask, what is 17 the history of this provision?
Did it go into a bunch of 18 sta tutes all at once, or is there something th a t we did 19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Oh, no, no.
It is a law of 20 custom.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, that is fine.
22 MR. BARRY:
Let me add one thing.
When.this came
!=
23 out I had (Inaudible) call seven other agencies.
You know, 24 what are you guys going to do, the minimum?
The vorst case
~
25 was ene full-time person because they were going to assica s
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1 him -- they are not supposed to but they vera coing to i
2 assion them to contracts and they all kinds of adamant 1,
3 support in contracts.
If you want to call that the worst
(
4 case, the best case was a staff of seven that they were 5 going to put on this as a result of the law.
So it ranged 6 from one to seven.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I suspect the sires of 8 those agencies varied.
Yes.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
there are some larger 11 than the NRC, too.
i 12 MR. BARRY:
Surprisingly the one was DOT.
13 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
The function of this
(
14 office is to find out ways in which we are having adverse 15 impacts on Small Business?
16 MR.'BARRY:
To promote small business, but t'e 17 minimum is one full-time person.
That was the minimum.
18 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
To promote small business?
19 You are going to have two people whose function in the 20 agency it is to run around and introduce Jethro T. Smi th ers 21 to Set Budnitz for the. purpose of getting $25 because 22 Smithers things he has got a great-idea to prevent D melt-downs out in his cow pasture, for God's sake.
24 (lauchter.)
25 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
If Bob Ryan weren't-ALDE.95oN REPCRTING COMPANY,.NC.
W a
38
.o.
1 leaving we would have to have a third person in the office 2 who would be a lawyer to protect on conflict charges 3 (Inaudible.)
(~
4
( La ugh te r. )
5 COMMISSIONER HENDhII:
For this kind of an 6 opera tion, high technology, safe *.y regulatory organization, 7 the whole thina is prenosterous.
8 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Can we agree that we will have 9 one f ull-time person and that the administrative support 10 will be provided from 11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Why not get a person who 12 can type?
13 (Laughter.)
14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Look, all jokes aside.
I don't 15 have to agree with the particular bill, but we are a 16 requiatory agency and we go around giving speeches and talks 17 and lectures to people all around the country about how we 18 must abide by regulations.
It is absurd for us because we 19 don ' t like a law that Congress passed to now try to figure J
20 out how can ve bend the interpretation.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I didn ' t say I.didn't like ZZ the law.
There is no need to get all huffy and' puffy about Il it, John.
24 (Laughter.)
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
The fact is that.there is e
' AL.CERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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1 no need to blow this office up beyond what it needs to be.
4 2 it seems to me one person is entirely adequa te in an, agency 3 this sire, and I frankly think half a person with some 4 administrative support wo uld be en tirely ad equa te.
It was 5 not a facetious suggestion.
I think a person who can type 6
there are people who can type -- because automatically 7 there is a tendency to say 8
MR. DIRCKS... They have already hired the person.
9 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY.
'4 ell, there is ---
10 MR. DIRCKS:
Could I say something?
I think 11 looking at the role of this of fice, it has a certain 12 function to do.
It is a setaside program.
Also, catting it 13 down to personalities, the person we hnvs located is an 14 extremely competent procurement contract specialist.
I 15 would also, and I am - sure we can prime up to do special 16 assignments looking at the contracts procurement services of 17 the agency.
I think he can bring more to bear to 18 procurement problems than just small business.
I am holding 19 tha t back.
I know we have got a snall business f unction to 20 carry out.
21 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
You knew, there is Z2 - som ething to be said for all this.
I think we are too much 23 oriented towa rd feeding stuf f th rougn certain well worn 24 ch a nnels, but I don't think_we need more than one person to.
25 do it.
ALCER$oN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
L
40 f'
1 MR. DIRCKS:
I think if we get it down to the 2 person that we have selected for the job, I think he can 3 bring more to the agency than just small business C.
4 setasides.
I think he is going to be of good use to us in 5 just looking at our whole procurement contracting situation.
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY It sounds good.
Let's 7 just have one person.
8 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
One?
9 COMMISSIONER 3RADEORD:
The office by statute is 10 restricted entirely to the area of contracts.
It does not 11 have other small business assistance f unctions.
12 CO.MMISSIONER GILINSKY:
In what way' 13 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Well,-I had no t focused on 14 the prcoram at all, and I guess I had thought that it had a 15 sort of ombudsman function as well and tha t we somehow had 16 some small licensee tied up in knots somewhere.
17 MR. DIRCKS Well, it doesn't give it licensee 18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let me ask you, does this 19 fellow have some sort of a signoff on contracts, or is he 20 simply someone who is a facilitator?
21 MR. CORNELL:
He is a facilitator.
22 MR. DIRCKS I don't think he would ;e in a 23 position of holding up contracts.
24 MR. CORNELL:
On+ thing this acency doesn 't need 25 is another reviewer of contracts.
-s ALCERSCN REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
-=-
41
...e 1
CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs The way the law is written ---
2 ConMISSIONER GILINSKY:
All right, fine, let's 3 have one person.
If the Department of Transportation can s
4 get by with one person ---
5 (Laughter.)
6 COMMISISONER HENDRIE:
In the sense that one is 7 more than zero, we are not happy with it, but in the sense 8 that it is less than two, it seems a notable advance ---
9 (Lauchter.)
10 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
My preference is for two, 11 but if you can support him elsewhere (Inaudible.)
12 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Any other itee:s -
13 Let's see, Joe, you didn't respond.
Peter i
14 suggested if we were viiling to agree with Len's IP 15 reduction of one.
16 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I don't care.
It is not a l'7 proposition I would argue strongly about.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs What is happening with 19 state programs ?
20 MR. BARRYs You are transferring eight positions 21 to FEMA.
That is the reason it comes down.
Z1 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
To 28?
23 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
That is where they will be after 24 th e determina tion ord er is ef f ?ctive.
25 CHAIRMAN AHEA RNE :
Now, many of those would be ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
_l
42 I considered for the regionali:ation as shown?
2 ER. BARRY:
Oh, yes.
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY :
Of the remainder?
4 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
5 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes.
6 COMNISSIONER GILINSKY:
When is that on track?
I HR. DIRCKS:
It is a slow track but it is moving 8 thin g.
I think we are talking about maybe this fiscal year 9 getting two or three or maybe four slots into two regiinal 10 offices.
11 COHNISSIONER GILINSKYs Let's see, this will be 12 the agreemen.t s ta te people?
13 MR. BARRY:
The agreement state people.
14 MR. CCRNELL:
We already have state liaison people.
15 MR. DIRCKS:
That is right.
We have got five of 16 these 28.
I'7 COMMISSIONER HENDPIE:
Well, let's see, we never 18 quite resolved in this forun some of these questions of 19 regionalization, right?
In fact, so far as I know I don't 20 remember having seen a paper out that says now here is what 21 ve will do with state programs.
We will put out three in 22 this region and two in that region and so on.
23 There is a state liaison, a liaison officer 24 progran which has been going on.
The state programs people 25 are coing out to th e regions.
In fact, periodically I seet another one or two on their way and I think I have now met five so there must be at least one in each region and maybe
' ALDERSON REPORTING COMPJ NY, INC.'
f.P**
1 ve are beginning to double up.
I 2
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
There are some that have come 3 back.
4 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Well, maybe a new one is 1
5 reassigned.
But with regard to moving elements of the 6 agreement states' staff ---
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
It hasn't been decided yet.
8 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
--- sta'ff of state programs 9 out, I don't believe that has been decided here, and I think 10 I wouldn't care to premise the budget particularly on the 11 proposition that it is all going to occur.
12 MR. DIRCKS:
There is no budgetary impact in this.
13 MR. CORNELL 4 The slots a re there.
Yhey are 14 either here or in the region.
I don't know how that 15 decision comes out.
16 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
The rest of it is good 17 enough for the EDO mark fo r me.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Did you go over the ELD?
19 Did you do that?
20 CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
ELD ve vent with five and six.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let's see, the increase 22 wa s justified on the basis of enforcement functions?
Z3 CH AIRMAN AHE ARNE:
Well, actually the 106 is what 24 vent in last year and got cut back.
Engleh a rd t came in with-25 a paper giving some back-up support for trying to support l
l l
l ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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- v. v -
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1 them.
(Inaudible.)
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Are any of those 3 specifically assigned to enforcement functions?
Do we know.
I 4
MR. DIRCKSs I think there are two.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Just two?
6 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Their preposal is two.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Just two eat of all that?
8 COMMTSSIONER BRADFORD:
Two additional.
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
5t i t 10 two out of eight.
10 MR. DIRCKS:
Rules and records in the general 11 administrative functions of tne agency.
They asked for 117 12 and we gave them 106.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
All righ t.
(
14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs Anything else on ED0?
15 MR. BARRY:
Four in enforcement.
16 COMMISSIONER GILIESKY:
Four in enforcement; an 17 additional four?
18 MR. BARRY:
An additional fcur.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Anything else on ED0?-
20 All right, Commission Offices.
21 MR. BARRY:
Let me ask you one question, please, 22 on '83 for AEOD.
Did we agree with 40?
23 CH AIR M AN AREARNE:
Forty.
24 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
'Yes.
25 CHAIRMAN AHERNE:
Commission Cffices.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
45 4
1 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I am sorry, one other 2 question about AEOD.
In adjusting the people there is there 3 a dollar adjustment that flows from that or are those 4 dollars all contract?
5 MR. BARRY:
No, the contractual work that he 6 wanted we agreed with.
7 CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
Part of it, as I recall, was a 8, transfer.
9 MR. BARRY:
That is correct, from research.
So 10 that is set regardless of the numbers of, staff.
11 MR. CORNELL:
There will be an adjustment in 12 travel in other areas.
13 MR. BARRY:
Yes, but not in cc ntractual assistance 14 that he needs,.
~
15 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
That is a pretty 16 substantial jump in contractual efforts in AEOD as well.
In 17 fact,-it is a greater jump on a percentage basis than the ---
18 CH AIRMAN AHEARNE :
But a lot of that, as you will 19 recall, was in transf er dollars tha t had been covered,:for 20 exsnple, NRR, there was a $700,000 contract.
21 COMMISSIONER 3R ADFORD:
So it is just a move.
22 MS. BARRY:
In ' B _1 he didn't handle all that-23 much.
He was just getting started.
You know, he just 21 couldn ' t handle it in '91 at the, budget ~ time.
25 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:
And somewhere in NRR there ALDERSON ftEPCRTING COMPANY, INC.
4g e....
1 is rero where there used to be 5700,000?
2 MR. CORNELL:
Actually it is research.
3 MR. BARRYs Research, yes.
It was taken out cf 4 research.
5 MR. CORNELL:
That was a contract to process LER's 6 and come up with a way of dealing (Inaudible.)
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
All right, SECY?
Now, I am 8 going to assume that admin. can pick SECY's dollar i
9 requirements.
10 MR. BARRY It is in there.
11 COEMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
What did you do with this 12 ' business of the two retrieval systems?
SECY vent out as a 13 separate one, or it was originally promised that it was to 14 have a separate one.
How is that getting re solv.id ?
15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Microfiche.
16 MR. BARRY:
Admin. is going to handle the 17 microfiche and the dollars a re in the budget.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Are they going to have a 19 separate system here ?
20 COMMISSINER HENDRIE:
What separate system?
21 MR.-3ARRY:
I don't know about a separate system.
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I thought there was 23 something different about the system.
24
- 53. BARRY:
-The. type of microfische that Sam needs 25 for this will be. accomplished bi-admin. and it.is a little.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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f7 1 dif f e ren t than the tariff system.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY He is not getting sucked 3 up in the tariff system ?
(
4 MR. BARRTs No.
5 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Can someone explain to 6
se -- well finish SECY first and then I want to go back.
7 MR. BARRY:
It is just that admin. v111 provide 8 th e se rvice..
9 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
There is sort of a question
- 0 of why no t actually.
11 MR. CORNELL:
What"is happening there is that tne 12 tariff contract will produce the microfische and, as I 13 understand it, SECY wants the fische in a different size
(-
14 that doesn't have all of the documents that go into the 15 otha t ' system.
So essntially it is a culling out of only 16 those dccuments in the PDR.
It makes it easier f or them to 17 re trieve.
Ihe tariff operation will produce those 18 microfische.
It is the same machine that pulls them out or 19 a different co-related machine.
(Inaudible.)
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
That is what SECY wanted.-
21 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
SECY I think wants those 22 fische with the eye readable legend along the top of the-23 film.
r 24 MR. - CORN ELL :
It is a different form of the 25 informa tion (Inaudible.)
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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1 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I don't remember whether 2 that is 24 or 48 pages you get then.
Then the bulk 3 documents in BESAR's shop run on a fische that does not not l
4 have that eye readable identification.
It has a serrated.
5 edge that a machine reads and you get more pages on a piece 6 of film.
But the tariff people process both.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
All right, that is taken 8 care of.
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Peter, do,you want.to go back 10 to 11 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Can somebody review for me 12 the history of the program support number coing from 375 to 13 575 down to 757 What is wra pped up in that?
(
14 MB. BARRY:
In which one, Commissioner?
15 COMMISSONER BRADFORD:
On OCM.
What is the 10 5500,000 that disappears between the President's 17 MR. BARRY:
The microfische is going to 18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Oh, th a t was Fan Ameener's.
19 MR. BARRY:
And Fran Ameener's.
Ch, yes, I am 20 sorry.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Let me ask'you, it has 22 always been a mystery to m,e,-vere does money come from wnen 23 I hire a consultant?
24 CH AIRM AN AHEA RNE:
I have vondered about that, too.
25 (Iaughter.)
ALCERSON REPORTING CCMPANY, INC.
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49 1
COMMISSIONER B2ADFORD:
I think it said S-75.
2 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
Is it S-757 3
MR. BARRY:
When you hire a personnel consultant
.~
(
4 within the GS-15 level?
5 COMMISSINER GILINSKY:
Yes.
6 MR. BARRYs That comes from personal comp. and 7 Benner's.
8 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
But not here?
9 MR. BA3RY:
No.
The only time tha t mone wo uld 10 come out of here if you hired a consultant is if you want to 11 a consultant under a contract.
12 COMMISSION'ER GILINSKY:
Well, I have done that, 13 too.
Now, I just let a little contract, which is all-I
\\
14 could do not being a branch chief or such any other
~
15 important person ---
16 (Lauchter.)
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
But I managed to let a 18 $7,000 contract.
19 (Lauchter.)
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I think I may. lik e this.
21 (Laughter.)
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Does that come out of this?
23
- R.
BARRY4 Yes, out of that pot, out of that 24 Comnission program support.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Have ve-used up this acney?
. ALDERSON REPCRTING COMPANY, INC.
~ - _,. -
50 1
MR. SARRY:
No.
In most years you have never used 2 the amount that has been in there, the total amount.
3 COMKISSIONER GILINSKY:
Actually, this is the 4 second time I have let.a contract.
I le t another 79,000 5 contract once.
6 (Laughter.)
7 MR. RATHBUN I think that came out of ou:
8 budget.
There is $7,000 for.an ice condenser and ---
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Out of your budget?
10 MR. RATHBUN Well, hell, I (Inaudible.)
11 (Laughter.)
12 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
Well, then,.it is not 13 coming out of the 575,000.
14' COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
But how does the 75 15 (Inaudible.)
16 MR. BAR3Y:
When we allot the budget for program 17 support, including your requirements, the Ch airman 's
'18 requirements, there is one allotment to the Commission 19 Offices.
This what you see there is simply a mechanism in 20 order to try to develop what your requirements, but when we-21 allot it it is in a lump sum to the Commission Offices, one 22 total.
So the money gets all sixed up.
23 COMMIE 5IONER GIIINSKY:
I see.
24 EM R. BARRY:
If you go up and he goes down ---
25 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
Does CP --well, we will ALCERSCN REPORTING CCMPANY. INC.
51 I get to you, I suppose.
2 MR. BARRY:
When I say you haven't used your money 3 in the past I am talking abcut the total Commission Of fice, s
4 not you per se.
5 COMMISSIONE3 BR ADFORDs But in a uormal year the 6 75 might get reallocated to CP, for example, or CGC?
7 MR. BARRY:
Right.
It also gets mixed up with the 8 court reporter and, you know, that sori.
9 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
We do have some sort of an 10 open-ended commitment on intervenor funding.
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Right, depending on where the 12 Authorization Committee comes out to go in for that.
13 COMMISSIONER BR ADFORD:
So that would be expected C-14 to boost the 75 this year?
15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes.
16 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
What was the 375 in FY '807 17 MR. BARRY:
On which one are we?
18 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
The same line.
Ihe 575 19 for FY '81 was intervenor f unding.
But if you go back to FY 20 '80 the program support for the Commission Offices is 375.
21 MR. BARRY:
That was your contractual 22 availability.
23 CH AIR M AN AHEARNE:
Not specifically identified.
24 MR. BARRY:
Not specifically identified.
In other 25 wo rds, when we went in with the '30 budget and we took all ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
52 I the offices' requirements we came up with about 375.
2-CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
You will notice CPE was 3 essentially zero.
4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORDs I see.
I see.
So what 5 you have done is to spread it out.
6 MR. BARRY:
Yes.
~
7 CHAIRMAN AHEABNEs Cksy, anything else on OCM?
8 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
No.
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
On SECY, any chance of reducing 10 SECT in any of the interim consolidation or reducing EDC's 11 administra tive support ?
With half of the people in this 12 building thers oucht to be some consolidation.
I don't 13 whether it would be (Inaudible) ED0's office, but there 14 'ought to some censolidation.
15 MR. DIRCKS:
We did take some consolidation 16 savings in the (Inaudible).
17 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
No, facilities.
18 MR. DIRCKS:
Facilities and I think quard services..
19 MR. DIRCXS We ha ve a list.
20 (Cocument is handed by Mr. Circks to th e Chairman. )
21 CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
Well, that is something-that if 22 we de get the interconsolidation we have cot-to think about.
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
We are sort down to the 24 bicycle racks category.
3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
As far as the numbers that is ALDERSCN REPCRTING COMP ANY, INC.
L.
53 i.,--
1 right, but these are important numbers unfortunately.
2 ACRS?
?
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Why is there an increase?
('
4 COMMISIONER HENDRIE:
Before you get to ACRS, the 5 SECY, the million 025, is th a t recognizable number in your 6 table?
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Yes.
8 C0"MISSIONER HENDRIE:
Good.
It appears to be a 9 million eight in
80 and a million three in
'81.
A 10 substantial reduction in
'82.
Does it rcflect the fact that 11 se h aven ' t been using the money in '80 and '81 and, if not, 12 what is going on?
13 MB. BARRY:
I am not sure what that money is.
b-14 That might have been the intevenor funding.
15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
The recording cLntract.
The 16 con t ract is coming down ---
I'7 MB. CHILK:
It is the contract with Aiderson for 18 recording Commission meetings, f or recording the meetings 19 out in the field for the Board and providing transcription M for the Board.
21 CHAIRMAN AHEARNT.:
The dollars are coming down.
22 MR. CHILK:
Just keep'taking a closer look at 23 an d 24 MR.'SARRY:- That is what it is.
25 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
All righ t.
ACBS.
ALOERSoN REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
_.. _,, =.
54 1
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
ACRS.
The request has gone out 2 and a combina tion of the f ollow-up on Commission 3 recommendations to increase the role cf the ACRS and some mL 4-Congressional action to increase th 2 involvement of the ACES.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Well, I think Joe has made 6 a good point on this subject earlier.
7 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Yes.
All these great 8 initiatives to increase the role of the ACES leaves the 9 committee with the fundamental 15 members.
10 COMMISSIONIER GILINSKY:
Right.
11 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
So the same number of 12 prim ary human beings are supposed to carry out these 13 additional roles.
What happens is th a t the staff simply 14 pt;olif e ra tes.
15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I am in agreement.
16 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Good.
17 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
What I thought is if they 18 increase the number of the ACES members 19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, I don 't k no w, ma ybe 20 ge t new ACRS members.
21 (Laughter.)
22 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Forty-two I was willing to 23 go for.
I would even stretch to 43.
24 CCMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Forty-two was last year's 25 num? er, and ! think that is what I would settle f or.
ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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I 1
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I am willing to go to 45; u2 or 2 43 -- Peter?
3 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I will say 42.
k.--
4 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
All right, two 42's, 43, 45, I 5 vill average it to 43.
6 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I think that is fair.
7 HR. DIRCKS:
As long as they don't ask for any 8 more space.
9 (Lauchter.)
10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
How about 837 11 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
The same.
12 COMMISSIONER BR ADFO RD:
43 and 83.
13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Okay.
14 The licensing board, there is an extra member 15 requested for the vice chairman position tha t had not-16 been ---
17 COMMISSIONER GIIINSKY:
Let's see, is this 43 18 in cluding ACRS fellows or no t including ACRS -- I don't see 19 any damn reason to increase those numbers.
20 COMMISSIONER HEND3IE:
These numbers never include 21 15 fellows.
' 22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Ihere is no' damn reason.to 23 increase th e se numbers.
24 C0MISSIONER HEND?IE:
Well, I talked Flessant back 25 four or-five or six sonths ago and they were bleeding all' ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
56
.e c
1 over the place and I agreed that I might be willing to l
2 support another couple, and we'did oc in last time with our 3 budget 4
CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs And the Congress has said that 5 they have to assist.
6 CONNISSIONER HENDRIE They keep bumping the 7 language.
So I am willing to support 43.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Gkay.
9 CHAIRMAN AHARNE:
The licensing board.
The issue 10 there is in going f or a vice chairman do th e y take it out of 11 the existing number or do they add one ---
12 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
if it will move the 13 hearings then give them the man, th e person or the slot.
14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Peter?
15 MR. BARRY:
let me remind you what my problem was 16 with that.
They just never seemed to exceed 28 l'7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs But part of the problem there 4.
18 was that the Commissioner took a reasonable length of time 19 to develop a procedure that they have to go throught to 20 staff, and there was a lengthy development time to get that 21 procedure ---
22 MR. BARRY:
You are saying it is not their f a ult.
23 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
They are now in the process of 24 going through that lengthy proced ure ( Ina udible. )
25 COMMISSIGNER BRADFORD:
I would still say 37 ALDERSoN REPORT 1NG COMPANY, INC.
~.
57 1
CH AIRMAN AHEARNE:
Okay, stick in 37.
1 2
All right, the field boards stay the same.
3 CGC.
We went in the last time at 27.
It vent
(.-
4 back down to 24 The office requested 34 I guess I would 5 he willing to go in at 30.
6 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
That is just the very 7 number I had in sind.
8 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
What?
9 COMMISSIONER:
That is the very number I had in 10 mind.
11 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Sold.
12 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Ckay, 30.
Then I would stick 13 to 30 in
'83.
14 OPA vent at 19, came a t 18.
They came in at 22.
15 EDO cave them 20 16 JR. DIRCKS:
Not us.
We didn 't give them 20.
17 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Oh, the comptroller.
18 (Laughter.)
4' 19 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Got it right out of there.
20 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Ckay, the comptroller came in
- 21. a t 20.
That ~does not include the~t. tree positions.that the 22 Commission voted for the Office of Consumer Aff airs.
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Now, what is this Office 24 of Consumer affairs?. Why did you vote that one?
Did.I vote 25 this?
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1 CHAIRMA4 AH EA RNE :
Yes, you did.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Three?
3 CH AIR F AN AHEARNE:
Three.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I take my vote back.
5 (Laughter.)
6 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Yes.
Joe's vote was 7 unen thusiastic to begin with.
8 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
What?
9 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Joe's was unenthusiastic 10 to begin with.
In fact, he may even have voted no.
11 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I voted against it.
You 12 said my proference was not 13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
A three to two vote for.
14 COMMISSIONER HEN DRIE :
--- but if you wanted to go 15 with it, why then I selected one of the sizes of it.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Is this attached to the l'7 OPA office?
18 CH AIR M AN AHEARNE:
Yes.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
You. tacked this on?
'i h y 20 doesn't it show here?
21 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Because it was'done, 1 quess, 22 af ter the budget was originally proposed.
23 NR. DIRCKS:
'4 ha t it vas is that the Commission 24 told me to identify three people to be assigned to the 25 office I guess while Joe Pushav was going through something.
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l of a pilot program.
I am in the process of offering up 2 three individuals to Joe ---
3 (Laughter.)
4 MR. DIRCKS:
and we are negotiating whether he 5 wants them or not.
I think they are pretty good people.
6 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I would go with ---
7 C MMISSIONER HENDRIE:
How about having an 8 all-purpose office 9
(Laughter.)
+
10 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
--- which is EEO, Consumer 11 Affairs and there is a Section 401 and Small Business.
12 (Laughter.)
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY I guess I would go with 20 14 including the three.
~
15 CHAIRMAN A HEA RNE :
I would go to 21 including the 16 three.
17 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: 21.
18 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
(Inaudible.)
(Laughter.)
19 He is off constructing his osn option.
20 How about 21 including the three?
21 CGliMISSIONER GILINSKY:- What are t." e s e people L2 going to do?
23 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Well, they are going to be 24 as. busy as the Small Business man is.
l 25 (Laughter.).
l ALDER $CN REACRTING CCMPANY, INC, i-
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COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
And with about as much use 2 for reactor safety.
3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Well, it is to try to assist in 4 arrange public meetings and to try to set up meetings with S public interest groups and other groups.
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Is that an identifiable 7 offico or part of ---
8 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
It is an ider.tifiable group, 9 section or whatever the term may be (Inaudible).
10 Twenty-one including three.
11 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Joe is going to vote for 12 three so the average comes out at 18.
13 (Laughter.)
(
14 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Let me ask, at what we had 15 proposed last year, 19, that is the current estimate, does 16 that cover the assignments to the regions that Joe has made 17 recently?
18 3R. S ABRY :
The 18 that came out of the House vill 19 provide two people in regions one and two and three and one 20 person in four and five.
That 19th person was to ---
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSXY:
So there are eight out of 22 18 out in the regions and there are 10 here?
Z3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I guess.
I know there are 24 eigh t la the regions.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
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They are pretty busy 3 answering th e telephone and putting stuff out.'
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Okay, we went to 21 then?
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Right.
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It is a spread, I believe.-.Did 20 you say the dollar program support, the control is spreak
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22 MR. BARRY:
Yes, just an estimate.
We really 23 allocate the money to the Ccamission in total based on 24 historical experience.
25 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Who. controls the money.then?
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In FY '80 it was about 2.5 and in FY '82 it is N', Q'e l' q 6 abo'ut 1. 5 '.
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Part of that was the intevenor.
I 2 think we had $500,000 in there in '91 and that was taken out 3
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The remainder was just a generai reduction in 5
program support across the board for the Commission and EDO 6 offices.
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Okay.
OIA.
We went into CMB 8 ;ast year with 33.
9 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Why does it show 28?
10:
COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
That is what we came out 11 with.
12 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Because that is what OMB'came 13 99t with.
14 COMMISSIONER BRADEORD:
These columns are 15 different.
16 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I seem to have a different 17 piece of paper.
Which one are you. locking at?
18 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I am looking at the notes that 19 I took in the meeting that we held here, th e budget review.
20 Then we have ' this sheet that came, July 24th.
21 COMMISSIONE3 HENDRIE:- I see.
Right, right.
We
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Do you aant~ to go 23 back in with 33?
24 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I would rather go back lic with 35 33.
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1 COMMTSSIONER GILINSKY:
I would go with 30.
I 2 would rather go with 28.
3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Peter?
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4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I would say 30 or 31.
5 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Let's see, 28, 30 and two 33's.
6 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Let me make a plea -- well, 7 not a plea.
I thought we thrashed pretty good last year the 8 hudget.
Unless there is some identifiable reason why this 9 year's mark from the Commission ought to be different than 10 last. year's ---
11 COMMISSIONER BRADF0dD:
It is just my sense of 12 desperation.
13 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
-- I have some celuctance 14 about going below last year's mark.
You know, if they come i
15 and say, well, we a re transferring a certain function over 16 to, I don't know, GC, or something like that, and that is a 17 block of four people, okay, that is identifiable.
Sc I 18 plead for holding last yea r 's Commission ma rk.
19 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
'4 ell, you all heard the-20 presentation.
I missed it.
If.you are really. persuaded to 21 33, I will come back to it.
22 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
33.
U 3R. DIRCKS:
There is one point that you might' 3
24 consider, though, and this is out of my baili11ck but I will.
25 speak up.anyway.- In 'the raquest for 11 additional 0.
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2 sites, eight to accommodate a sanagement review of the 3 eritire agency and review of the resident inspection 4
prog ram ---
5 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
It is eight audit, increase in 6 our audits.
That is the audit.
All CI AR Inspector General 7 offices are required by the GAO audit list that goes out to 8 th em that over a period of years they are supposed to audit 9 the entire agency.
10 MR. DIRCKS:
So this is general management audit?
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes.
12 MR. DIRCXSs It is not connected wi th the 13 management review of contracts?
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14 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
No.
As he explained in his 15 briefing to us it they are working their way through ---
16 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
It is the standard business l'7 of inspectors and auditcrs.
18 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Right.
19
'Okay.
I think that completes it.
Len, if you 20 will total up the bad news and we will get the ' sh eet this 21 afternoon?
22 MR.-RARRY:
Right.
Z3 COMMISSIONER GILINSXY:
What did-you do on 24 (Inaudible.)
25 MR. BARRY:
In pecple?
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ALCFRSON r1EPCRTING COMPAN'f, INC.
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Yes.
U 2
MR. BARRY:
We increased th em six.
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs What happens to the r,
k-4 temporary employees ?
5 MR. BARRYs They are all accommodated in the
'81.
6 On 1 October those 146 people will become permanents.
So it 7 will be a great day.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
There ought to be a plaque 9 to Jchn.
10 (Laughter.)
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I feel very good about that.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, it is a humanitarian 13 act.
144 What did you do with the admin. money?
15 MR..BARRY:
Admin. support?
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Yes.
17 MR. CORNELLs Well, the dollars and people were 18 left at the EDO ma rk.
19 MR. AHEARNE:
We identified tha t that may be an 20 errot and we may have to come back to squeeze on ---
21 MR. LaRRYs We came out pretty much at the EDO 22 mark that you looked at-the other day.
23 CHAIRMAN AREARNEs Well, dc you think you will be 24 able to get this doue f or us?
3 MR. BARRY:
Summarized ?
You are~ going to
- ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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l reconvene at, what, 2 o' clock?
2 COMMISSIGNER BRADFORD:
2:30.
3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs How about reconvening at 3 then b',
4 you can have a^ chance to ---
5 MR.'BARRYs We will have it for you at 2 if you 6 vant.
,I mean, it is whenever you want it.
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs Well, we will still be out 8 at 9
MR. BARRYs All right, 3 o' clock.
We will be 10 re ad y.
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
We may have to squeeze a little
,12 bit more on the dollars.
There are a number of places 13 that 14 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
When are you ;oing to 15 cather again?
16 CHAIRMAN AHERNE:
3.
17 COMMISSIONER HENDRIEs That is fine with me.
18 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Well, if he has a piece of 19 paper ready for us we can take a look at th a t before th e.
20 meet ing.
21 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Can we take-another 'ive Z1 minutes?
23 MR. SARRY:
I.can tell you just for kicks in 24 people.
I. you want-to compare ---
25 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I don't want to compare l
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I want to talk about something else.
'de are going to 2 spend all afternoon on the overall budget.
3 I have been reflecting on why the advanced 4 reactors category didn 't appear in the EDO budget.
As I 5 understand it, you took the Foctnote 2 in the Fiscal 6 Guidance Table as some sort of mandate.
In all o ther 7 categories there are EDO recommendations for a program above 8 the fiscal guidance, or practically all, certainly by major 9 office.
10 In the particular category of advanced reactors 11 you zerced tha t.
Do I understand tha t it is because of 12 Footnote 2?
13 MR. DIRCKS:
I think that was the reason.
4
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reason and 1<4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
There was that 15 also in the research or whatever budget I think there was a 16 -list of priorities in what they would cut first, and that 17 was listed as their first cut..
18 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Do you know whether that 19 was on the basis of Foo tno te 2 or some other because when I
%) ag reed to the fiscal guidance sheet I did not regard 21 Footnote-2 as an instruction to the staff but ratner as an 22 information footnote.
23 CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
I agree that that was an 24 - explanation rather than a ( In audible. )
25 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
And if out there you took-i AL9ERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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2 misinterpreted at least my meaning in agreeing to go with 3 this document.
4 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
My intent was not as a 5 quidance.
It was just a clarifying statement 6
COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Because in the '81 budget 7 ve had this business, look, if you are going to have a 8 briefing progran ---
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Right, right.
10 MR. CORNELL At the G 1evel we took it as 11 guidance.
It was a misinterpretation (Inaudible.)
12 CO$MISSIONER HENDRIE:
Well, I wonder how much 13 effect, you know -- a thing which I would like to ask b~
14 Budnit: at this point is, at an overall level of 237 or a -
15 couple of more, or 240 for round purposes, would he exclude 16 the eight million for f ast reactors?
17 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
He did.
He has asked the 18 question, to aim at 235 and what do you put in it.
He had 19 put in th e f ast reactors and the advanced converter in-his 20 original budget.
It was in the 283 that he came in a t.
In 21 fact, at the 250 EDO mark that was his (Inaudible).
So he 22 certainly wasn 't treating it.as here is something that I am 23 damned if I am putting in.
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24 MR. DIRCXS:
He said during his presentation that 25 even though the -EDO wanted it out, within this ED0 ' mark I am ALDER 1 SON PEPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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1 going to do it anyway.
2 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
He said what?
3 MR. DIRCKS:
Not in this particular but in certain i
4 other categories where we said do this or do that or don't 5 do this, he said, okay, the EDO within this mark said don't 6 do this but I am going to do it anyway within the EDO.
So 7 in this particular case he.was specifically ruling out any 8 wo rk on the ---
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
But I think we had ag reed as 10 far as that that we identify in the budget that we are not 11 in cluding this, but if the national program changes then it 12 ought to be there.
13 3R. BARRYs What you are suggesting is that 14 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
It'is-not clear to se that 15 by virtue of perhaps some misunderstanding of the fiscal 16 guidance there hasn 't 'been a somewhat biased sta f f I'7 recommendation, at least to my mind.
I think it would be 18 useful to explore that with Budnitz.
Somewhere in here was 19 that reduction priorities table.
20 MR. CORNELL:
That was the table that he submitted 21 when he submitted the budget to us.
We can look this over.
ZZ COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Well, I can't tell how much 23 of that is prejudiced by misunderstandings about the fiscal' 4
24 quidance.
25
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1 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Okay, we vill meet together at t
' 2 3.
3
. ( 's (Whereupon, at 11420 a.m.,
the meeting recessed,.
s.
4 to reconvene at 3 00 p.m.,
the same day.)
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This is to certify that the attached proceedings 'oefore the
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in the matter of:
BUDGET SESSION - MARKUP /RECLAMA Date-of Proceeding: July 29, 1980 Docket !!umb er :
' Place of Proceeding:
Washington, D.
C.
were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the Commission.,
Mary C. Simons Official Reporter (Typed)
W W%
official Reporter (Signature)
O y
--,