ML20023D619
| ML20023D619 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Indian Point  |
| Issue date: | 12/22/1982 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML100541179 | List: |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8305240574 | |
| Download: ML20023D619 (59) | |
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1 1
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
DISCUSSION /POSSIBLE YOTE.ON ACTIONS IN REG ARD TO INDIA N POINT 4
CLOSED MEETING - Exemption Number M [
5 Nuclear Regulatory Commission 6
Room 1130 1717 H Street, N.W.
7 Washington, D. C.
8 Wednesday, December 22, 1982 9
The Commission convened, pursuant to notice r
10 at 10 :10 a. m.
11 CONMISSONERS PRESENT:
12 NUNZIO PALLADINO, Chairman of the Commission VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner
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13 JOHN AHEARNE, Commissioner THOMAS ROBERTS, Commissioner 14 JAMES ASSELSTINE, Commissioner 15 STAFF AND PRESENTERS SEATED AT COMMISSION TABLE 4 16 S. CHILK M. MALSCH 17 J. SNIEZEK W.
CUNNINGHAM 18 W.
DIRCKS R. HAYNES 19 J. ZERBE B. GRIMES 20 21 22 23 l
24 25 l
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2 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 Good morning, ladies and 3
gentlemen.
4 The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss 5
possible action which the Commission might take S
concerning emergency planning at Indian Point.
But 7
before we get into this subject, we need a Commission 8
vote to hold this meeting on short notice, less than one 9
week's notice, and the vote to close regarding the 10 Commission's enforcement action.
11 MR. CHILK We took the vote for the second 12 m ee ting late in the afternoon.
13 (A chorus of ayes.)
3 14 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
Thank you.
I suggest we 15 begin our discussion this morning by hearing from the f
16 Staff on its recommended course of action, together with 17 reasons underlying that course.
Then I suggest we 18 entertain Commissioners' suggestions on variations or 19 alternatives to the Staff's recommended approach.
20 Now just a few moments ago we were handed a 21 possible draf t memorandum and order which I think we 22 should give attention to after we have gotten some of.
23 our thoughts on the table.
Ik..
24 Okay, sre there any other Commissioners '
25 comments?
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1 (No response.)
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2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO All right.
I propose we
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3 turn the meeting over to Mr. Dircks.
4 HR. DIRCKSs We have a very short version.
5 Let me just go through the reasoning.
6 One, I think under the regulation the 7
Commission has vide discretion.to take a number of 8
actions to shut down the plant, to take lesser 9
enforcement action, or to do nothing.
Based upon the 10 FEMA report and the presentation by Lee Thomas l
11 yeste rda y, where he indicated the major improvements 12 that have been made in the situation at Indian Point, 13 and the surrounding counties' state plan, all 34 I,
14 sub-elements that were identified as deficient have been 15 addressed.
16 Twenty-nine have been resolved and five are in 17 the process of being adequately resolved.
There are the 18 remaining sub-elements in deficiency on the bus driver 19 situation, and that classification was a significant 20 deficiency.
In a fast-breaking, fast-moving accident 21 the ' response time of bus drivers would no t be 22 satisfactory.
23 Mr. Thomas had said that was being worked on.
1 24 'And another point the Staff might wa n t to make is in the
'4 :
25 type of accident described in FEMA -- fast-breaking and
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fast-moving type accident -- moving people may not be 2
the best solution.
In fact, the sheltering option seems
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3 to be the preferable option to hold people in place 4
until the f ast-breaking, f a st-moving results of the 5
accident have moved out.
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
On page five, when they 7
talk about inadequacy, they say in a worst case 8
situa tion -- i.e., an evacuation required for all 9
sectors and no response by commercial drivers -- the 10 additional time required to respond was not judged by 11 FEM A to be adequa te to protect public health and 12 safety.
13 They are talking about the neod for evacuation k~
14 on all sectors.
Did you explore to what extent it would 15 be modified if it were less than all sectors?
16 HR. DIRCKSa I do not -- we might be able to 17 discuss that now.
let me ask Brian.
Did you have a 18 response to that?
Brian Grimes may be able to address 19 tha t issue.
20 MR. GRIMES:
We have not sp,cifically gone 21 into detail with that on FEMA.
It is obvious that if it 22 were a situation where only the Rockland County area's 23 population had to be evacuated, drivers from other 24 localities eight be able to be diverted to that area.
p 25 Tha t is another qualita tive f actor.
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Ihe item discussed yesterday on ride-sharing 2
CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0a I was wondering if there
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was a specific sector that had to be evacuated, would 4
their recommendation on inadequacy be different about 5
the bus drivers?
6 ER. DIRCKS:
I do not think we have explored 7
that.
8 MR. GRIEESs There are no specific plans.
9 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
This is the Westchester 10 County area.
I think their point was there are no 11 arrangements for the bus drivers, and I would think the 12 solution would be that the significance of it might be 13 less, but there still would be a doubt.
14 NR. HAYNESt Hight I add, as I recall they are i
15 dependent on private busing for abou+. half of the buses 16 that it would take to have evacuation.
There are public 17 buses, school buses, so supposedly Westchester County 18 has full facilities.
An I not correct there?
19 YOICE Yes, sir.
20 MR. HAYNES:
So you actually have half the 21 number of buses.
I might also add a recent survey by 22 the licensee, a public survey firm, Yankovich or 23 something, they found that 75 percent of the people b
24 surveyed said they would be willing to share rides with 25 their neighbors, and one last point, or give rides to ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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their neighbors.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs Here an evacuation has A
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3 been called and a neighbor says, we are going and oh, I 4
vill not ride with you.
5 MR. HAYNES:
And the other thing is, if you 6
take a look at the meteorology at the Indian Point site, e
7 your' predominant vind direction is either down-river or 8
up, and that has been a classic meteorological condition 9
for years.
So it is unlikely you are in an all sectors 10 situation.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
They only speak to what 12 they call the worst situation and they describe it as an
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13 evacuation of all sectors, among other things.
14 MR. DIRCKS:
We have generally taken the 15 attitude that we have n'ot gone beyond their FEMA 16 findings and disputed issues with them.
I think it 17 might be over the next couple of months we might want to l
18 discuss with them, especially in terms of the exercise, l
19 to lay out some of these concerns, and we certainly will.
20 The other item is the general conclusion, I l
21 think, that was reached in the report on page 11, the 22 paragraph concerning the feasibility of the plan and the 23 capability of being implemented.
That was repeated 24 again by Lee Thomas yesterday using essentially the same 25 words.
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We did not have a transcript from yesterday's 2
meetings.
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3 MR. CUNNINGHAM:
What I wrote down that Lee 4
Thomas said is, overall it is a good plan, feasible and 5
there is capability for implementation.
6 HR. DIRCKSs Based upon Lee's observations, 7
both of the plan and the nature of the regulatory 8
decision that has to be made, our recommendation would 9
be, in that chart that I had, to use Option 3 and to 10 come back and revisit the matter following the exercise 11 in March.
12 Again, the progress that has been made in 13 terms of resolving the deficiencies they cited in their 14 report, Thomas did mention yesterday he would hope to 15 have most of these issues resolved in time for the March 16 exercise.
17 Ultimately, the Staff recommendation is to use 18 Option 3 and to come back at the issue following the 19 report, following the March exercise.
20 CHAIRNAN PALLADINO:
And that one is the one 21-tha t says " defer final action until after the March 1983 22 -exercise"?
23 MR. DIRCKS Yes.
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Take no enforcement 24 25 action now, in view of the significant progress to MERSoN REPoRM CoyPANY,INC,
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date?
2 MR. DIRCKS:
That is it.
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3 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
A suggestion was made in 4
tha t one.
It says " defer final action until after the 5
FEMA evaluation".
-6 MR. DIRCKSs Yes.
That essentially is our 7
recommendation.
We did not want to repeat the Thomas 8
presentation.
I think he did an excellent job. ' We are 9
very pleased with the cooperation we got from FEMA.
10 They have kept us informed.
We have had several 11 meetings with them in addition to the meeting the 12 Commission has had.
13 I am sure we vill be in very close touch at
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14 the headquarters' levels and I know Don works very 15 closely with Frank Petrone out of the New York regional 16 office.
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 With regard to that 18 recommendation, it is silent on any action or 19 recognition of' action specifically being taken with 20 regard to Rockland County, and it is silent also on the 21 Westchester -bus driver situation.
And in view of the 22 fact that these were specifically highlighted, I wonder 23 whether you thought any mention of it should be made at 24 all.
25 MR. DIRCKS They are the deficiencies that AtosasoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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1 should be corrected.
I think FEMA indicate'd their viev 2
of things is they would hope they would be corrected in p
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3 time for the March exercise.
There are no ac tions I 4
think we can take against the licensee to move that l
5 situation along.
6 We could hold some threat out in order to get 7
them to apply whatever --
8 COENISSIONER AHEARNEa What we could do, for 9
example, it could be that if we were to take no action 10 we could, however, say explicitly that we intend to 11 revisit this issue following one month aftar the 12 exercise, and at that stage we would expect both to have
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13 the Rockland County plans and use both action and the
.s 14 resolution of the Westchester County bus problem, for 15 e xa mple.
16 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Which would not 18 absolutely commit us to doing some thing at that stage, 19 but at least it would apply increased pressure.
20 MR. DIRCKS:
On everyone -- FEMA, the states, 21 the counties, and the plan.
Yes.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Could I ask you to 23 reiterate what is the status of the two parties?
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24 MR. HAYNES:
Unit 3 is down for work on the 25 steam generator tubes.
They are not scheduled for ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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restart until the end of March or early April.
2 COMMISSICNER AHEARNE:
I asked that question 3
because I noticed in the sheet that gets sent out from 4
the EEO every day, the one I just looked at this morning 5
said 1/83.
6 HR. HAYNES:
The last one I saw was the end.of 7
March and I do not know where they stand on their jobs.
8 MR. DIRCKSs I have to take a look at that.
9 MR. HAYNESa On Unit 2, as I mentioned, Unit 2 10 went out of the cold shutdown mode a couple of days ago 11 so that they can do their hydrostatic testing of the 12 primary system prior to startup.
That was completed 13 yesterday and they have some ref ueling testing to do and s
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14 they plan to be back on line sometime around Christmas.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
What are their plans 16 after that?
17 MR. HAYNES:
Their plans are to continue 18 operation.
19 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE They do not have a 20 schedule?
21 MR. HAYNES4 No.
22 MR. DIRCKS:
That question was raised last t
23 night and Ron has been traveling back and forth to L
24 Philadelphia, so this morning I talked to Jim Allen, 25 Ron's deputy, and asked him to make a special call to n
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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the company to find out what is going on.
2 Jim Allen talked to Mr. Charles Jackson, Vice
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President of Operations of Con Ed, and he just repeated 4
wha t Ron mentioned.
They intend to go critical this 5
week and they would like to be on the grid by the middle 6
of next weak, and they have no plans to bring the
- 7 reactor down.
8 COMNISSIONER AHEARNE4 Thank you.
9 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
Are there an y other i
10 issues?
11 HR. HAYNES:
If I say, last evening I did 12 speak with a member of the Rockland County Advisory 2 -
13 Committee and he brought to my attention their letter to
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14 you of December 20, that in the formulation of the Rockland County plan it gets drafted by the energency 15 f
16 planners in the county, and then it goes out to the 17 various department heads to make sure they have the 18 resources.
It goes for comments and then it comes to 19 the Citizens Advisory group -- there are four different 20 groups there -- and then it passes by the full board 21 legislature before it is a plan adopted by Rockland 22 County to be implemented.
23 The person last evening was concerned because 24 what she heard was everything is going to be hunky-dory 25 in a month, and that is a little bit of a short time for
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this whole process to take place, although the first 2
draft of the plan will be ready the first week in N
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3 January.
4 COENISSIONER AHEARNE I spoke to her and they 5
were to be distributing the first draft today or 6
tomorrow, but the meeting of that group to get together 7
to discuss it, it will be the first time that people 8
will be describing what procedures they should have in 9
the plan or resource questions.
That will not take 10 place until the first week of January.
11 And then there is, as you describe, a 12 multi-step process.
Her point was it would be 13 impossible to have the plan submitted to FEMA early in 14 January.
15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Did they give any 16 indication when the plan might be complete?
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Her point was it has 18 now been drafted.
I think she said it was a 200 page 19 plan, and there were several steps that still have'to be 20 taken to develop, to make sure that everyone agrees that 21 it will be possible to put in place and make it work.
22 CHAIREAN PALLADINO:
Did you get any feeling 23 for how long it would take to go through the 24 departments?
25 MR. HAYNES:
No.
I asked the question and I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC,
13 1
just threw out some numbers.
I said are we talking 2
about three months or six months, and she thought it was O
3 highly unlikely it was six months, because I know the 4
Suf folk Coun ty, af ter they got with it up there, they 5
came up with something in about three months.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
To some extent, I think F-it will depend on ho w good a job the draf te rs did.
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Any other comments or 9
questions?
10 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
What is the probability 11 of what is characterized as a fast-breaking event that 12 vill require evacuation?
13
-6 I
COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa 10 4
14 MR. DIRCKS:
That is what we heard the la st 15 time, I think.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
For anything it is 17
-6 always 10 18 (Laughter.)
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Per reactor year?
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY (Shrugs.)
21 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Fill in the units?
22 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS Does Commissioner 23 Gilinsky speak for the Staff with that number?
24 MR. DIRCKS:
That, I guess, is the accident 25 l
that has the f uel melt and the f ailure of containment, i
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vbich is about the right ball park.
2 MR. HAYNES:
And, as the Commission knows, O
3 with respect to Unit 2, during this last refueling 4
outage they did make two improvements with respect to 5
the electrical cable tunnel, separation of alternate 6
power supply, and the bumpers between Unit 1 and Unit 2 7
control.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You are not suggesting, 9
therefore, we should modify Commissioner Gilinsky 's 10 number?
11 MR. HAYNESt No.
I say that lets you get up 12 to that number.
13 COHNISSIONER GILINSKY:
I want to make it 7
14 clear that that was in quotes.
15 (Laughter.)
16 MR. DIRCKS:
You are a believer in the PRA 17 now?
18 MR. GRIMES:
I wanted to make a comment, not 19 on the probabilistic number but on the connection of 20 fast-breaking events to evacuation.
I think for 21 fast-breaking events we are talking about decisions and 22 information for people to stay inside and not evacuate.
23 It is for the events that have more hours of lead time 24 that you might perform the precautionary evacua tions, I
25 and the estimate with the bus drivers is for evacuation i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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of the special population and is already on the order of 2
seven hours, so va are not talking about a very fast D,
3 situation.
4 We are, talking about adding time to a time 5
period which is already very significant.
It would be a 6
very significant decision to move those people anyway.
7 You would have to have some projection that you were a 8
number of hours away from this problem.
Then you would 9
have to take all f actors,- including the wea ther and the 10 availability of bus drivers and things, into account in 11 deciding which protective. action you chose.
12 We have been steering away from having any 13 specific time requirement on evacuating general 3
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14 population or special populations within specific 15 amounts of time, and I think this is a case where ve 16 would say, in our view, the Westchester bus problem,
17 given all of the qualitative f actors and the likelihood 18 of ride-sharing and things like this, is not something 19 which by itself would be a significant item.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So, in your view, is it 21 correct to conclude that the Rockland County problem is 22 solveable?
23 MR. GRIMES:
Yes.
24 COMNISSIONER ASSElSTINE:
You place a good 25 deal of reliance in recommending the third option on ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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FEMA's statement, including the statement that these l
2 plans are feasible and capable of implementation.
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isn't it absolutely clear, both throughout this process 4
and from what Lee Thomas said yesterday, that FEMA is 5
unwilling to say anything at this point about wh e the r 6
any of these plans are going to work ?
It is not just 7
the buses or Rockland County.
It is every,one of these 8
areas of deficle'ncies they identified more than four 9
months ago.
i 10 They are not prepared to say the first word 11 now about whether those things vill work until af ter the 12 hold the exercise, and that has. een clear through this
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14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE.
But, Jim, that is true 15 for any emergency plan.
FEMA's position is, for any 16 plan they will not make the statement about whether it 17 vill work until they have had an exercise, and that is 18 not unique to this.
19 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE4 I think they went a 20 little f arther than that a year ago, and when they held 21 the exercise they found that there were a whole lot of 22 problems they did not identif y as a result just of the 23 planning.
It was done -- the first day, there was a
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p-24 120 -d a y clock started for this plan.
25 COMEISSIONER AHEARNE:
I think it has just l
AI.DERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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been their position, I think, when we were discussing 2
with them the general case for our hearings, they were D
3 also having that same point.
And I think the people at i
4 FEMA doing the emergency plan reviews have always taken 5
that position, that in order to make a judgment whether 8
a plan will work they need an exercise.
7 Prior to that, they are just reviewing paper 8
pro cedures, and until they see an exercise they are 9
going to be unwilling.
10 COHEISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, there should i
11 have been an exarcise.
12 CONNISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
I agree with that.
s 13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I think we are looking 14 too closely at this being a black-and-white situation.
15 This is an evolving situation.
You develop plans and 16 the exercise is not one, as I read somewhere in there, 17 where you pass or fail.
It is an exercise to identify 18 deficiencies so you can make the plan better.
19 Let me finish.
I have a whole pa ra gra ph.
20 COMBISSIONER ASSELSTINEt All right.
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 Because when you are 22_ evolving a procedure you would be awfully lucky not to 23 have some deficiencies.
As a matter of f act, the 24 exercise identifies the deficiencies.
You revise the 25 plan and then you exercise again and hope that you ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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converge on fewer and fewer deficiencies.
2 But I think that we mislead ourselves into
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3 belie ving that once you have an exercise that assures 4
preparedness because personnels change and situations 5
locally change.
So you have to maintain continued 6
diligence and almost anytime that you exercise, unless 7
you have the same team, you are going to find that there 8
are going to be deficiencies.
9 And I do not think we should view it as black 10 or white and you are constantly in a catch-up 11 situation.
If you took the Redskins and every fourth 12 game you brought in a whole new team, you would find 13 that they would not function as well as the Redskins who h
14 may have von a few games.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY4 That is why the 16 regulations seek reasonable assurance.
l 17 COHNISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
That is right.
I 18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINOs But remember, we are 19 going f rom essentially no emergency plan to trying to 20 encompass a very effective one, and in the longer 21 process you are going to find imperf ections until you 22 have shaken the whole process down.
And then you still 23 have to maintain diligence to see that it continues.
24 COMMISSIONEB ASSELSTINE:
That is all true, 25 but there is a threshold level that we are required to ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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look at by our regulations and that is are there so many 2
deficiencies there simply is not reasonable assurance
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3 that emergency preparedness actions can and will be 4
taken.
We certainly reached that point more than four 5
months ago when the 120-day clock was started.
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The question now is, I think, whether enough 7
has been done to be able to reach the judgment that 8
enough deficiencies have been corrected so that 9
emergency preparedness actions can and will be ta ke n, if 10 there is reasonable assurance of that.
FEMA has told us 11 they cannot give us that advice at this point in time 12 and will not be able to for another several months.
g 13 It seems to me there is no way around, unless 14 ve are going to ignore our regulations, facing the L
15 question in the absence of being able to make that kind 16 of judgment whether some additional enforcement action 17 needs to be taken, including shutting down the plant and 18 considering the f actors that we are required to consider 19 by our rule.
20 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
Apparently you are coming 21 down.on the side that you do not have reasonable 22 assurance.
23 00HNISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
That adequate 7
24 protective measures can and will be taken in the event 25 of a radiological emergency.
Based upon what Lee Thomas ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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said yesterday, I have no basis in reaching that 2
judgment, and I do not see how the Staff does either.
.O s-3 If the agency that is really the expert in 4
this area tells us they cannot make that judgment yet, 5
how can we make that judgment?
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
On the basis that they 7
reviewed the plans and they think they are feasible to 8
implement.
9 COHHISSIONER ASSELSTINEa They were asked 10 specifically yesterday whether they could make that l
judgment that we are required to make in our 11 12 regulations, and they said no, they cannot do that now.
13 CHAIBEAN PALLADINO:
But it is the NRC who
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14 must make the judgment.
15 COHHISSIONER ASSELSTINE4 That is right, and 16 the question I have is if FEMA cannot make that 17 j udgment -- and they are the people who are supposed to 18 know about emergency planning how can we step in and 19 say we can mak'e that judgment now?
20 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 They said a couple of 21 other things that, I think, are very important.
They 22 said they e vacuate under many circumstances other than l
l 23 radiological, and they seem to do that quite 24 eff ectively.
I know the circumstances may be different 25 in those.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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1 They also said the planning for this is 2
generally of a higher quality than for others.
Nov 0
3 whether or not it is satisfactory quality for us is a 4
determination we have to make.
But I find that having 5
made the progress they have, and having corrected all 6
but the situations in Rockland and Westchester, that 7
there is reasonable assurance that this evacuation plan 8
can work, because I do not think most people vill depend 9
upon buses, and that is a f actor we have to take into 10 con sideratio n.
11 I think carpooling and sha ring rides is a 12 major f actor, and I think that has been demonstrated.
13 It eas certainly demonstrated in the Harrisburg area.
14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Could I comment?
Jim 15 has asked how can we do something.
You are right; FEMA 16 is the expert on the judgment on whether an emergency 17 plan, vill work and so forth.
And I believe consistently 18 from the early days they have been stressing the need to 19 go through the exercise to make the test.
i l
20 Just as an aside, I will carefully take part 21 of the transcript of this morning,. and when we revisit 22 the issue of the annual exercise, I will hope the 23 Chairman has the strong, good words about the need and 24 the value of exercise that he has just expressed.
25 (Laughter.)
ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
22 1
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But I believe FEMA's 2
position is completely consistent with where they have
.)
3 always been, and I think th ey a re right.
To really knov 4
whether the plan vill work, you need the exercise, and 5
the more complicated the plan, the more likely every.
6 time you do the exercise you are going to find nev 7
things that you did not know.
That is one of the. main 8
values of doing the exercise.
9 And this is probably at least as complicated, 10 if not the most complicated, emergency plan they had to 11 develop, not just because of the population but because 12 of the major governmental units that have to be 13 involved.
Nevertheless, the Commission 's responsibility jg 14 is to reach a balanced judgment, and in that judgment we 15 have to balance such things as FEMA's position, 16 recognizing the exercise is necessary for them to make 17 their final judgment.
18 And if tha t is true, every time we reach a 19 conclusion before the exercise, we are going to be faced 20 with their saying we cannot tell you whether the plan 21 vill really work.
So we have to take that somewhat into 22 consideration.
23 The other piece we have to take into 4
24 consideration, if we are looking at some sort of an 25 interim period, how likely is it the plant will have to ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
23 1
be used during that period.
I think that is the kind of 2
balanced judgment that the Commission is constantly O-/
3 forced to make.
An y time we are f aced with a plant or 4
plants which have a problem or set of problems, we have 5
to take that kind of balance.
6 So I reach the conclusion that I can in this
,7 case, and I would go ahead and let them operate.
8 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE John, let me respond 9
to that, if I could.
I would agree with you.
If we to have to make that kind of a balancing judgment on the 11 second issue that is raised by our regulations, that is,
't 12 uhether, on balance, in the absence of being able to 13 make a reasonable assurance finding in this particular
- p,
~
14 case, is some or any enforcement action appropriate.
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
g m ~
~
.a 24 1
I' agree with you.
I think that is the kind of 2
balance we have to make, independent of what FEMA has iO
' (_/
3 told us.
But it seems to me the FEM A judgment on the 4
first issue really is dispositive because the first 1
5.
issue really is an emergency preparedness judgment.
6 COHNISSIONER AHEARNEa When you say 7
dispositive, do you mean determinative of our decision?
8 CONNISSIONER ASSELSTINEa If they say they g
cannot now say that there is reasonable assurance that 10 adequate protective measures can and will be taken in 11 the event of a radiological emergency, which is what Lee 12 Thomas said yesterday -- he said he could not give us an 13 affirmative respdnse to that question.
It does seem to
,g 14 me, given their expertise in this matter, that we ought 15 to rely upon that judgment.
16 00HEISSIONER AHEARNE:
But Jim, if you mean by 17 rely on it, not allow the plant to o pe ra te --
18 CONNISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
No, I am separating 19 the two questions.
Because it seems to me if FEMA can 't 20 make tha t j udgment, I don't see how we can make the 21 judgment that there is reasonable assurance those 22 actions can and will be taken.
I don't see how we can 23 make that judgment.
That gets us to the second question.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
For me at least the 25 importance is what is our action.
I am not quarreling l
i i
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,!NC,
25 l
1 with you that FEMA cannot say something.
As I point i
2 out, I expected them not to be able to say it, and I m
(_)
3 think if you asked them for every plant in the United 4
States, except for those which have recently had 5
exercise, they would say we can't make that judgm en t 6
without an exercise.
I 7
CONHISSIONER GILINSKY:
Could I ask about 8
tha t?
How many plants have had successful exercise?
9 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
I think he said 10 yesterday something like 13?
11 HR. GRIMES:
I'm sure it is on the order of 80 12 to 100 now that have had exercises that have been s
13 critiqued.
s
~
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I am informed every 15 other operating plant has had a successful exercise.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Successful.
17.
NR. GRIMES:
This plant has also had exercises 18 which in many respects were successful and some were 19 unsuccessful.
i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Have there been any 20 21 othe plants under these 120-day periods?
MR. GRIMES:
No, there was a case in Dresden 22 23 with Grundy County where the FEMA finding was recieved 24 as very close to an exercise on another plant, and 25 Grundy County was able to exercise within a month or so.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC,
26 1
CONHISSIONER GILINSKYs I gather what you are 2
saying as a result of exercises at every other plant, iG
' s_ /
3 there have been, with that one exception, no other 4
120-day periods.
5 HR. CRINES:
Tha t 's correct.
I'm aware of two 6
FEMA is chewing on right now.
I 7
COHHISSIONER GILINSKY4 0kay.
But up to right
~
8 now, this one has been through that process twice now.
g It has been found deficient twice, so it has triggered 10 two 120-day periods.
11 CONNISSIONER AHEARNEs You are right.
12 COHNISSIONER GILINSKYs So it is a rather 13 different --
es 14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO Uas this from exercises 15 both times?
16 COEMISSION ER ASSELSTINE:
The second time was 17 from an exarcise.
18 C055ISSION ER GILINSKY Bu t the first time, it 19 was on the basis of review of plans.
So it is -- in 20 effect, it has flunked twice on its plans, and once on 21 the carrying out of th e plans.
So it is in a rather 22 different configuration than any other plant.
23 Add to that the fact that this is the pir.nt 24 with the largest popula tion -- a t least, if you take a 25 large enough circle -- and add to that the deficiencies ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC '
~
27 1
the county finds, and you have a unique situation.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Let me ask, Bryan, every
^
(_x 3
plan that is evolved, if you examine it at certain 4
stages there are going to be deficiencies.
Now, are we 1
5 evaluating this one, the first time we vent through the 6
clock business, was that evaluated about.the same time 7
all the others were, relative to 'their state of 8
development?
9 MR. GRIMES Yes.
10 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO Now, when the others 11 passed their exercises, did they pass them the first 12 times?
You said everyone had a successful one.
Did es 13 they also have unsuccessful ones?
14 HR. GRIMES 4 Other than what I have just
'~
15 described, we haven't gotten negative overall findings 16 from FEMA based upon the exercises.
We have some 17 reports that reflected some deficiencies, but not 18 overall as a significant deficiency.
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
You are saying there have 20 been no other circumstances in which they made an 21 exercise and found deficiencies, and then re-exercised?
l COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
.I think what he is 22 23 saying is there were deficiencies found, but none of l
24 them led to the overall finding HR. GRIMES:
Of inadequacy except the one I 25 ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
28 t
1 mentioned about the Grundy County area, the Dresden and 2
LaSalle plants, which were fixed without the 120-day
>A 3
clock.
4 COHHISSIONER AHEARNEa Was Grundy County about 5
the only other place where you have had a county 6
refusing to go along?
7 MR. CRIMES:
I think we have had local 8
problems at a couple of other cities in Beaver Valley g
which FEMA is now working on, and deciding whether to to call them significant or not.
Other than that, we have 1
11 had one state problem in California where the counties 12 Compensated for the state.
13 HR. PARLER:
But as f ar as a major county g.
14 refusing for a period of time.
15 NR. CRINES:
Suffolk County for the Shoreham 16 plant would be the other exception.
17 I would make one othe comment on the 120-day 18 clock.
The first 120-day clock was on all sites in New 19 York state because it was an authority problems a 20 county-state authority problem, for the most part.
21 CON!ISSIONER AHE.\\RNE:
So you were saying it 22 is not.just an in-plant l
23 MR. GRIMESa It was not.
I 24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
So your earlier 25 statement that this is the only one that had a 120-day ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
_. _ _..,. _ - _ __ _.... _ _... _ ~. _. _., _..
29 1
clock --
2 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
Did we write letters O
L/
3 to the other facilities?
4 NR. GRIMES:
Yes.
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Wha t happened to the e
other f acilities?
7 COMMISSIONER AHERRNE That was a state 8
problem.
9 HR. GRIMES:
The state problem was resolved by 10 all the utilities working together with the state.
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEa The state passed a law.
12 ER. GRIMES:
The legislature passed a law.
~s 13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY In writing to Indian 14 Point the first time there were aspects that related 15 specifically to Indian Point, were there not?
16 MR. GRIMES:
The critique at that point was 17 primarily directed to the state plan, I believe.
The 18 deficiencies may have been applied to both county and 19 state plans, but it specifically addressed FEMA's list 20 of items that we transmitted with a letter starting the 21 120-day clock.
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I must say that is not 23 ay recollection.
As I recall, when we went over the 24 list of deficiencies after the second time the clock was 25 turned on, there was a good deal of overlap between that ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
~
30 1
and the deficiencies that were cited the first time.
2 And tha t wouldn 't be the case 1f it were just a matter O
ts_/
3 of mistaken planning.
4 ER. GRIMES:
While you are discussing it, 5
perhaps I could consult the actual letter we sent.
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI The letter was pretty e
7 short, as I recall.
There was a backup which listed the 8
various --
9 MR. GRIMES 4 I think I have that.
10 HR. DIRCKS:
Jim, we might address the first 11 issue about the nature of the findings.
I might ask Guy 12 to explain why we came out with that view.
13 NR. CUNNINGHAMa At first I thought perhaps I g3 14 disagree with your interpretation of the regulation as 15 to what the Commission has to do today.
I thought you 16 were saying at first that a finding of reasonable 17 assurance is necessary or the alternative is a shutdown.
18 COMMISSIONER ASSE1STINE:
Oh, no.
l NR. CUNNINGHANa But as you later explained 39 20 about the balancing, I would agree with you.
I would 21 point out that this whole 50.54S(2) is premised that you 22 start with a finding of a lack of reasonable assurance.
23 You allow reactor operation for at least 120 days and 24 then the regulation was purposely left very openended so 25 you have the flexibility to allow continued operation of ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INCl
31 r 1 o~
1 220 days, but you did have to look at other factors, j,
s 2
some of which are enumerated and others are left to the
'sL 3
Commission's discretion.
4 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINEs But isn't it pretty 5
clear there is really a two-stage process here?
At the
~
6 of the 120 days if the deficiencies are corrected so 3
7 that you can now make the reasonable assurance finding, 8
you are frae and clear of it.
But if the deficiencies 9
are not corrected in a way you can now make the i,
10 reasonable assurance finding, then it seems to me the 11 rule contemplates a second process.
12 That process, then, is to decide whether 13 additional enforcement action, including shutdown or 14 derating of the plant, needs to be taken.
And the rule k.
Nt 15 specifically says the Commission is to consider, anong s
S" 16 other things, certain enumerated f actors.
17 So it seems to me the rule compels if we can't 18 make that first finding, the rule compels proceeding to 19 the second stage of the process.
HR. CUNNINGHAHs That's correct.
The staff's ji'
. 20
' /
Lt
't 21 starting premise was there are remaining deficiencies,
'so you have to look then at the judgmental factors as to 22 whether enforcement action is warranted.
23 d
COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
The question I have v
24 i
25 about the recommendation the staff has made for option l
ALDERSoN REPoRTIN'G COMPANY,INC,
r 32 1
three is how can you make a judgment without having gone 2
through that second stage of the process?
As far as I
(_/
3 know, we haven't looked at any of those factors which 4
are enumerated there, and until we do, I don't see how 5
you can make a judgment at this point that no further 6
enforcement action should be taken.
7 COHNISSIONER AHEARNEt Why do you say we 8
haven't looked at those factors?
9 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
Have we looked at 10 whether the licensee can demonstrate to the Commission's l-11 satisfaction what the Commission sees in this plan are 12 not significant for the plant in question or that S
13 adequate interim compensating actions have been or vill
' ~
14 be taken promptly or that there are other compelling 15 reasons for operation?
~
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I think we have looked 17 at two or three.
18 HR. CUNNINGHAM:
We certainly have not looked at the first'that was alluded to yesterday.
l 19 20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That's right.
I 21 tho ugh t we discussed those three factors, certainly the 22 first two.
The first one, that.was the 4F letter, or 23 the show-cause order, and a t least I thought the 24 discussion yesterday concluded tha t these are areas outside the licensee 's --
25 ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
33 1
COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
What'are the interim l
2 compensating actions?
'O b
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE The two discussed were 4
the state coming into Rockland County, and the second 5
was the National Guard.
6 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINEs But that assumes all 7
of the other deficiencies have not only been corrected 8
from a planning standpoint but also, from a preparedness 9
standpoint.
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE Those are the two 11 outstanding deficiencies.
12 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINEa From a planning p
13 standpoint only.
14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE Tha t's right, that's 15 right.
16 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE As far as we can 17 determine from FEMA, all of the original deficiencies 18 may be outstanding f rom a prepa redness stan dpoint.
They 19 are unprepared to say.
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE That's correct, ther 21 are not prepared to say.
But the interim compensatina 22 measures for getting to whether or not there is a 23 judgment for preparedness I would say would have to be 24 FEM A's statement in which they said that they believe it 25 is capabla of implementation.
Now, that means an ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 1--
___________________________________________J
34 1
interim compensating measure if you want to address the 2
o th er.
O
\\_~
3 CO3MISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
I guess I am not as 4
persuaded that that is, in any way, sufficient to reach 5
a judgment that there are compensaring measures 6
sufficient that those things will be done.
Nor am.I 7
sure we have really considered the others.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I would almost conclude g
that your position would require you to believe there is 10 no compensating measure because it would require the 11 exercise to prove that it could be done.
And I believe 12 that the concept of a compensating measure means that 13 You recognize there is something lacking.
14 FEMA's position is they need an exercise of 15 something lacking.
Mov, is there anything that can fill 16 that lack?
I separate it into those two pieces.
There 17 is one set in which FEMA has said as far as they can.
18 tell, everything that should be done has been done 19 except they need the exercise.
And that is all of 20 those, except for those two othes.
And then the 21 question isa on those two others, is there anything?
22 And yes, there is something.
It's not completely 23 satisfactory but it least there are steps in that lI -
24 direction.
l 25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
In the earlier discussion ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
35 1
I may have given the wrong implication.
I was not 2
saying we have found reasonable assurance that
.: 3 4,. -
3 everything is hunky-dorey.
But I was speaking primarily 4
to the balance situation we have to consider.
5 HR. CUNNINGHAMa I would like to comment 6
further with respect to Commissioner Asselstine 's 7
comments about the three f actors.
We think those are 8
only illustrative of the factors to be considered, and 9
ve place emphasis on other elements of enforcement 10 discretion, if you will, that Bill outlined at the l
11 beginning of the meeting.
12 MR. GRIMESa I have an answer now on the first
.s 13 120-day clock.
The letter from FEMA was. given to us and s
14 a response to our request for a finding on In dian 15 Point.
However, the material they transmitted was a 18 letter from the Region to Mr. Hennessey from New York 17 State which addressed the state plan that had been la submitted.
The state plan included an annex with seven 19 county plans dealing with all of the counties in New 20 York State.
21 The deficiencies are divided between state 22 plan deficiencies and generic county plan deficiencies.
23 The county plans are not specific to the level of which 24 county.t was.
It was generally found deficient in i
. 25 county plans is.the only level of specificity in this ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
t.
l
_s 36 t
)
1 document.
So there were state and county deficiencies 2
identified but the county deficiencies were New York D
3 county deficiencies in general.
4 HR. DIRCKSs Bryan, before you sit down, there l
5 is some question about the 80 findings from FEEA.
Hon 6
has indicated when we talk about 350 findings, the sort 7
of full-blown FEHA findings on plants.
I think Tom 8
indicated yesterday that between 15 and 18.
9 NB. GRIMESs Yes.
Things that have gone 10 through their full administrative process are auch l
11 smaller than that, but they have received exercise i
12 reports from FEHA on a large number of these.
13 HR. HAYNESs But we call this report received fs 14 at the end of July, FENA Interim Findings.
They are 15 interim findings with respect to the 350 process, which 16 is a major look at the plan, the exercise, a look at the 17 actions..You verk out the problems and come up with a 18 final resolution of is there an adequate state of plans 19 an preparedness.
20 Until you go through that whole process you 21 don 't come out with a final modifying statement.
l
(
22 MR. GHIMES:
I guess we have tried to def orce 23 the FEMA 350 process f rom our licensing process and it 24 doesn't finally aske a difference whether they complete 25 the administrative process or not, they need to_give us l
l l
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
37 1
substan tive inf orma tion.
If we were to put the 350 2
process in the NRR licensing procedures --
(
3 HR. DIPCKS:
I think we're trying to 4
straighten out the difference between what Tom said 5
yesterday and what was said today.
Thomas was referring 6
to his full-blown 350 regulatory process.
I think Bryan 7
was talking about the number of exercises that have been 8
run and the number of reports we have in on those 9
exercises.
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa But still, there was 11 an exercise run in every case, and no other plant, with 12 the possible exception he mentioned in Illinois, has t
13 triggered the 120-day clock.
-.s 14 ER. DIRCKS:
All I was trying to do was 15 reconcile any differences in the statements that were 16 made.
17 CHAIRNAN PALLADINO Well, Jim, following your 18 thoughts, where do you think we ought to come down?
19 COHNISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
I would issue a show 20 cause order that would compel the licensee to address 21 formally the factors that are spelled out in the second 22 stage of the regulation.
And at least for myself, I 23 would make the order immediately effective, and I would 24 determine whether the public interest requires that the 25 plan remains shut down until after either the show cause ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
"O I
38 1
order had been satisfied or FEMA had responded that the j
2 deficiencies in preparedness have been addressed
'O
_./
3 satisfactorily.
4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
And the reasons for it, 5
aside from the fact that you don 't believe there is i
6 adequate assurance.
7 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
I think it's clear a
there is not adequate assurance now that adequate 9
protective measures can and will be taken in the event 10 of an emergency.
I 11 It seems to me the next question is whether 12 additional enforcement action, including keeping the 13 plant shut down, is in the.public's health, safety or 4,s
- (
14 interest.
And my conclusion is given the history'of a
15 this particular case, given the unique circumtance, this 16 is the only plant which, after having gone through an 17 exercise, had disclosed such significant deficien cies 18 that the 120-day clock was triggered -- given the fact that FEM A now was unable to sa'y that those deficiencies 19 i
20 in preparedness have been corrected, and given the 21 importance of emergency planning, I would say that the 22 plant should not operate until either they have made a i
23 sufficient showing in accordance with the second part of l
24 the regulation, or FEMA has determined that the deficiencias are corrected.
25 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
39 1
COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
I have a question for 2
Bryan Grimes.
How would you respond to this statement.
O._/
3 Would you agree with it or disagree with it?
The 4
deficiencies noted by FEMA vent beyond the NRC 5
threshold, which is our planning standard.
6 HR. GRINES:
I would agree with that statement 7
with respect to the bus drivers.
I think the item ther 8
identified with respect to Rockland County is a 9
substantive issue.
I'm not sure they hooked it to 10 exactly the right planning standard, but I think it is 11 of significance and is within the intent of all of the 12 planning standards.
13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
One of the questions,
, - ~,
14 Jim, that I had was would the impact of shutting it down 15 lead to an acceleration of the process of improvement 16 more than it might actually interfere with it?
17 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
I don 't know.
I 18 would assume that the kind of progress we have seen over ig the past four months would continue.
Every indication, 20 from what Lee Thomas said yesterday, is that would be 21 the case.
The plant has not been shut down over the 22 past four months as a result of operator action.
I'm not sure that the shutdown would have a 23 24 significant impact one way or the other in terms of
- 25 furthering cooperation.
ALDEPtoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
40 1
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I don't think it
?
2 vould.
It would be a secondary influence.
(
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Vic, do you have any 3
4 position on which direction to go?
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY My inclination is to 6
say that the plant should not run un til FEN A can say 7
that there is reasonable assurance that energency s
8 preparedness is adequate.
9 COHNISSIONER AHEARNEs As I said, I would let 10 them operate.
It is a close call, and the difficulty 11 has nothing to do with the plant.
And in fact, although
~
12 I originally thought it vould be Westchester County, the 13 difficulty is Rockland' County.
And the problem is not w
14 what they are doing now but what they have failed to-do 15 for so long.
Interesting.
16 When we were ptitting together the rule, we 17 vere concerned about a state taking the action of 18 ref usin g to participate, but in this particular case, a 19 county has refused to participate.
Eventually, they 20 have come around and are starting to participate, but 21 that is really a.significant deficiency.
And I will 22 admit that that is the part that is difficult to reach a 23 judgment on, and it is close.
'If bo th reactors were 24 o pe ra tin g, I'm not sure where I would come out.
I know if Rockland County had not started 25 ALDER $oM REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
41 1
making progress, I would be with Jim.
It's close.
I 2
come down on the side of folding in the probabilities of ir.
3 allowing them to opera te.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs I believe the 5
population figures we got yesterday were not correct.
I 6
believe Rockland-County is the one with the most people.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
What the woman from 8
Rockland County told me yesterday afternoon was not that 9
Rockland had the largest population, but rather, th a t 10 the numbers we were given were from the 78 census, and 11 in the 80 census Rockland was closer to Westchester 12 County but Westchester County was still the more 13 populace.
~
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
The numbers are based 15 upon the 1980 census.
Does anyone have the numbers 16 here?
That's a bit of a disappointment since they did 17 come up yesterday.
18 MR. DIRCKS:
We relied on FEMA.
I think we 19 have to rely on FEMA for those numbers.
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Do they compute those 20 21 numbers?
MR. DIRCKS:
Yes, they generated those numberc 22 as a result of their study.
23 tl-CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
What was not clear was 24 what the numbers referred to, because when I got the 25 l
ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
l
42 l
1 piece of paper I tried to write down what I thought ther 2
referred to, and all of a sudden I realized I didn't A
sL/
3 have the information there.
4 CONHISSIONER GILINSKYa It's a number within a 5
ten-mile circle in those various counties, and I am 6
surprised we don't have such numbers here today.
7 CONHISSIONER AHEARNE:
I think the point is 8
they are both quite large.
The other two counties are 9
really quite small in comparison, and that they are 10 comparable.
Whether one is 10 percent more than the 11 other isn't really relevant.
They are comparable.
12 CHAIBHAN PALLADIN04 Tom?
3 13 COMMISSIONER ROBERTSt I would accept the 14 recommendation of the staff.
This was handed to me as I 15 was walking in the door.
The draft order looks 16 reasonable to me.
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 All right.
I come down 18 in believing we can and should allow the plant to
~
19 continue its normal operation.
I recognize tha t there 20 are deficiencies to be corrected.
I believe that 21 insof ar as emergency planning is concerned, the 22 population is better protected as a result of having 23 gotten 29 of the plan elements corrected, and I don't 24 believe that the situation is less safe now than it was l
before.
25 ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
43 1
And recognizing that we are only going to 2
allow this plant to operate under these conditions for a p
1
,2 3
restricted period of time while corrective action, 4
additional corrective action is being taken, I think 5
that it is not an unreasonable risk and it is one we can 6
stand.
7 Now, with regard to the order, I have a f ew 8
questions such as what is our time limit.
9 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa What will you do if 10 there is an exercise and FEMA decides that the performance has been deficient? '
11 12 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
I would have to see what 13 was its deficiency.
em 14 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
So deficient they 15 still can't reach the judgment that there's reasonable 16 assurance.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
It would depend upon l
18 the details.
It's my feeling at the moment, i
COHMISSIONER ASSELSTINEs-The f act of the 19 i
20 matter is that by the end of that period of time, it 21 would have been going on more than two years under that 22 same set of circumstances where said assurance has not been given.
23
[
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE4 I am willing to admit 24 if it turned on one single feature which was an anomaly, 25 l
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
44 1
then I might not --
2 COHNISSION ER GILINSKYs Well, if it was so O.
3 deficient that you had to start, in effect, a 120-day 4
clock again.
5 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, as I said, at the 6
acaent, I think I would have to vote to put the plant l
7 down.
Obvio usly, I would have to look at the details of 8
the specifics, but that is where I think I would be.
g Because it was close this time.
It was close.
10 CONHISSIONER ASSE1STINE I think that really 11 is the heart of the problem in the action today.
It 12 perpetuates an ongoing process where you have virtually 13 unlimited operation of a plant for an ever-increasing 14 period of time when you cannot make that fundamental 15 judgment.
16 COHEISSIONER AHEARNEs Sure.
But realize it 17 is always s balancing judgment and you are trying to 18 estimate how sound a judgment is it to let this operate, l
19 and my position is based upon I believe it is an l
20 asymptote towards a successful plan, and at some point, 21 the rate of getting there would be too slow.
Or if it 22 turns around, either of which would lead me to say 23 stop.
But a t the moment I agree, it has been an 24 excruciating process for the people there.
It has been 25 very bad.
But I do see it is consistently getting ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
45 i
l 1-closer and closer.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO I would urge you to r
3 express your thoughts on this.
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE4 I intend to.
I was 5
going to mention I don't see any way I can come to the 6
s ea ting this af ternoon of the Regulatory Reform Task 7
Force if we're going to put out an order this afternoon.
8 CHAIREAN PALLADINO I think we have to act on g
this today.
10 COHHISSIONER AHEARNE Then I must excuse 11 myself f rom this af ternoon 's meeting.
12 COHNISSIONER ASSELSTINE I feel the same way.
em 13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Are you suggesting we 14 don 't have it?
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
No, you may have it.
I 16 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s But you are just saying 17 you won't be there.
l 18 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINZa I agree with John.
19 If we are going to try to issue an order or even-20 announce a decision on an a pproach this af ternoon, as I 21 think we should, I think we ought to scrub the rate 22 reform meeting.- It will take a little time for everyone 23 to get their thoughts together.
CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s I was going to ask_you is
.gg 25 it an order?
Unless we order something, I was wondering ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
l 46 i
1 is it an order, is it a memorandum of decision, a 2
statement of position or whatever?
r' 3
COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Whatever it is, 4
COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs What is it, Marty?
5 MR. MALSCHs It's probably a decision.
I 6
don't know it's important that we label it.
I suppose 7
if I were to label it I would use " decision."
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s 'The order is the only 9
thing I was wondering about.
10 COMEISSIONER AHEARNE:
Decision is probaby s
11 butter, because otherwise you go through it and there 12 isn't an order.
13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Do you want to take a few s,
14 minutes looking at it?
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I have a couple of i
16 concerns about it.
(
17 l-l 18 19 20 l
21 l
22 23 24 25 ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
l 47 s-1 Starting on page six, where you say "the first 2
reason is many problems relate to state and local A(_'
3 governments beyond the power of the licensee to 4
control", that is not the first reason because the whole i
5 process of emergency planning is primarily beyond the l
l 6
licensee 's control.
7 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
This is not really 8
punitive.
It is not a question of punishing the 9
licensee one waI or the other.
l l
10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What page are you on?
l l
11 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
Page six.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINOs It is similar to the t
13 first thought that we ought to reverse -- co ahead, p-
~
14 John.
I am sorry.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Down toward the bottom I
16 of the page you say, " FEMA expects to have a working l
17 plan in 1983."
I would not mind saying " FEMA hopes",
l 18 "is looking forward to " --
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
" Anticipates"?
20 COMMISSIONER AHEABNE4 I would not go as far 21 as " anticipates".
The reason is, the impression I got 22 from FEMA is they were trying to tell us the process has l
started in Rockland County, and if everything goes well 23 24 and smoothly they will have a plan in early 1983.
But I 25 do not think they were saying they necessarily expect l
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
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48 1
to --
2 MR. BlUME:
Commissioner, that statement was d
.c/
3 taken from page nine of the FEMA report, where they say 4
they anticipate a workable plan by early 1983.
l
(
5 COMMISSION ER AHEARNE:
But I as talking about 6
what the,y said yesterday, and I cannot go that far.
7 Shat Thomas said yesterday did not lead me to conclude 8
that they were ready to say that there vill be a 9
vorkable plan in early '83 because I think what was said 10 was, if everything goes well, they will have.
11 If You want to quote it, FEMA has in a letter 12 of such-and-such a date, then I could not argue with the
,s, 13 statement.
But I do.not get the sense from that.
14 And then on page seven, after the FEMA 15 statement, I would strike the second sentence that says, 16 "We regret FEMA esnnot now assess the state of 17 preparedness."
Instead, it only tells us the plans are
'8 f ea sible, notwithstanding this limitation and FEMA's 19 advice, that sounds like a dig at FEMA.
It sounds like 20 ve are taking a slap at them that they have not been 21 villing to do something.
22 Well, I do not think that is --
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
What is your suggestion?
24 Cross out that sentence?
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
And the final l
25 ALDER 5oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
49 1
point is, we say, the closing sentence is, " Third, there 2
is a low probability of off-site release in the four es
!,_ I 3
months until FEMA can make its preparedness 4
evaluation."
Just a comment.
5 In my comments I will try to write, I will try 6
to say more about that because for me that is a major e
7 factor.
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
What are you talking 9
about there, that there is no probability of off-site 10 releases in the four months?
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Yes.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
That deserves some 13 expansion on.
Now are we going to put a time limit that l
14 ve want to revisit this?
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I am going to say I 16 vant to revisit it one month af ter the exercise, 17 presuming the exercise in in March.
If the exercise 18 slips substantially, I would want to revisit it anyway.
3g CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
One month af ter the 20 exercise?
21 COMMISSION ER ROBERTS:
What is the normal time 22 frame for a FEMA avsluation?
COMMISSIONER'AHEARNE:
I thought I asked Lee 23 24 yesterday and he said about thirty days.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s But then we will get ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC,
50-1 their evaluation.
2 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
Don't we want to look A
\\_f 3
at their evaluation?
4 CONHISSIONER AHEARNE:
Sure.
5 CORNISSIONER ROBERTS:
If we tie it to thirty 6
days, suppose it takes then 457 7
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
(Nods affirmatively.)
8 You see, if it slips too much, I will not be revisiting 9
it.
10 (Laughter.)
11 CH AIhNAN PALLADIN04 Gentlemen, let me ask, 12 are you asking for a revisiting one month after the
,-s 13 exercise or one month after the evaluation of the 14 exercise?
15 CONHISSIONER AHEARNE:
I am asking for a 16 revisiting one month after the exercise.
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Whether or not you have 18 an evaluation?
COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Tha t is an attempt to 19 20 put some pressure on ?EMA to make sure they do that.
21 This is both a public policy and a personal policy 22 issue.
The public policy arguments are I am comfortable with allowing it to operate a certain length of time 24 before these other issues have to be reexamined.
There 25 becomes a point where I am not uncomfortable with that.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
51 1
The second is, I would like to be around to 2
revisit.
3 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
I understand that, but I 4
have a problem with revisiting it before we get the FEMA i
5 evaluation.
s i
6 COHHISSIONER AHEARNE:
I can understand that.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, the y said they 8
would do it in thirty days, so they obviously can do it 9
in thirty days.
10 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I would like to say we 11 revisit it upon receipt of the evaluation report, at the 12 completion of the exercise.
s 13 COHNISSIONER AHEARNEa Assuming that it is
' ~
14 delivered prior to the end of April.
15 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
What's that?
16 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
I said, assuming that 17 is deliverad prior to the end of April.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I do not see how we can 19 revisit it if we do not have an evaluation.
20 COHNISSIONER GILINSKY:
Oh, I think we could.
l l
21 You could certainly revisit it.
I would think you would 22 start worrying about not getting an evaluation.
23 CHAIRHAN PALLADINoa Now in this order, do we 24 say anything about wanting to do anything about Rockland 25 County?
- I only got this before I got in.
I tried to i
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
52 i
l 1
sca'n the last few pages. -This says nothing about 2
whether Rockland County gets its plans completed, does
,G 3
it?
l 4
MR. CUNNINGHAM:
This was prepared by the l
l 5
Office of General Counsel.
6 MR. MALSCHa There are no conditions in here.
7 It was just an effort to see what an order would look 8
like to implement the Staff 's alternative 3.
l 9
CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s I think it does take time 10 to read this.
11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs I have a suggestion.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Go ahead.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa On page two, this S
~
14 basically runs through the history.
I think you ought i
15 to put in the f act of the previous 120-day period.
l 16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEa True.
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Yes.
18 COMMISSIONER ROBERTSs But it also should say 19 that it was all the plans in the state.
l 20 MR. CHILKa If that is true.
21 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
If that is true.
22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE Do you think it is 23 realistic to both make the announcement and give the 24 order out?
I agree we have to make the announcement.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I think we should try to ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
53 f
9 1
agree on the basic order.
It may be --
2 COMHISSIONER ROBERTS:
The decision, I thought (O_J 3
you decided --
4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
The decision, we ought to 5
get out the basic decision, whether or not everyone will 6
have additional comments ready.
It might be a 7
question..You were proposing that we cancel the -- no, 8
you said you are not going to be there.
g COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs Right.
+
10 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
First let me ask --
11 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINEs I am not going to be 12 there either.
I propose we cancel.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs I did not want to take
-s i
14 the flak of canceling a regulatory reform task force 15 meeting.
COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
I will take the 16 17 flak, assuming we will have another one after we all get 18 back together again.
CHAIRHAN PALLADINos The only thing that 19 concerns me is we are going to lose the opportunity.
We t
20 21 are running the risk of losing the opportunity of 22 getting anything out by the end of January, but I also 23 agree we have to get this. order out today.
COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs I think to issue a 24 decision without the words that support it in a case
.i 25 I
[
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
54 1
about which there is such strong feeling is, I think, 2
not a good thing.
O 3
CHAIRHAN PALLADIN04 Yes.
Would you agree to 4
cancel the regulatory meeting?
5 CONMISSIONER AHEARNE But you would agree we 6
should make the decision today, don't you?
7 COH3ISSIONER GILINSKYs Yes, and put out the 8
order.
g CHAIRNAN PALLADINoa How do you feel about the 10 Regulatory Reform Task Force?
11 COMMISSIONER ROBERTSa It is up to you.
12 CHAIRNAN PALLADINO:
I gather the consensus is 13 ve are better off canceling than not canceling.
.. s
\\
14 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
For agenda planning, 15 why don't we look at the first week back to see if we 16 can fold in raother.one or two?
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Can I ask you how are we' 18 going to utilize this time this afternoon?
You are 19 planning to --
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Try to write the 21 final --
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Are you going to first 22 23 try to fix up this?
l l
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
No.
I gave you my l
25-comments on tha t.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
,S 55 1
CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Are you going to be 2
working on additional vievs?
3 COEHISSIONER ROBERTS:
I will have additional 4
'v ie ws.
5 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
(Nods affirma tively. )
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 And you may possibly have 4
7 some comments?
8 CONHISSIONER ROBERTS 4 Possibly.
9 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s How about you?
10 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
I do not have any 11 more Comments on the order.
I will have dissenting 12 views.
13 CONNISSIONER GILINSKY:
I guess I will have to
(
14 write something.
~
15 (Laughter.)
16 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
That may prompt me to 17 write something, too.
18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs You see, that is why I 19 was raising it.
It is not clear to me that all of this 20 process of writing is going to lead to a' conclusion this 21 afternoon.
I think we have to put a decision out.
It l
L is not obvious to me -- I do agree with Vic -- that when 22 23 we put something out it ought to be clear in explaining l(
24 things.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 Let me tell-you why I am ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
g w
w.,
56 1
dwelling on this.
I think we should not ha ve a whole 2
series of additional comments or we should work to try r~s 3
to avoid it, and I was going to suggest, John, if some i
4 of your additional comments are agreed to by a majority 5
of the Commission, I would prefer to s'ee them folded 8
in.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Fine, fine.
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
That is why I am asking 9
what is going on.
10 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
You see, at the moment 11 they are in very rough draft form.
12 COMNISSIONER GILINSKY:
We ought to plan out
[
13 whether the thoughts are acceptable to the others.
- (
14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I just vent through 15 them.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
We have not decided to 17 agree or not agree.
18 CH AIRM AN PALLADINO:
I was going to ask when 19 might you get your thoughts in a first-draft shape?
l I
20 COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
I would doubt before l
21 2:30.
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I was going to suggest 23 that you have them.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I will get them to you, 25 sure.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
57 l
1 CH AIRHAM P ALLADINO:
All right.
I would 2
suggest that as we get something we can --
m k_, '
3 ER. FOUCHARDa I need some guidance.
What do 4
I tell the outside world?
Are we still meeting at 4 :00 5
with a possible open session?
6 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
Yes.
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, an open session 8
at the end of it.
9 CHAIBHAN PALLADINO:
The open session would 10 come only to announce what the decision is or if we wish 11 to affirm our votes in public.
12 COHNISSIONER AHEARNE:
So it starts closed.
13 MR. FOUCHARD:
But can I tell them it will
-,s
~
14 CDen?
15 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
We anticipate it vill 16 open.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I has to.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
If we are going to get 19 anything out today, it has to open.
There is only one 20 possibility.
If we are hung up -- and I do not think we 21 vill be hung up -- I wanted to check how ma ny people are 22 going to be here tomorrow if we need it.
23 COMMISSIONER ASSELSTINE:
I do not plan on 24 being here tomorrow.
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
We had better do it today.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
58 1
COMMISSIONEB AHEARNE:
My point is, if worse 2
came to worse I think we ought to go ahead and announce f,- w 3
the decision, even if it is not an order.
It is a 4
decision, even if we do not have all the words together, 5
because it is important to announce a decision.
1 i
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I must say I am not
~
7 going to write a whole lot, a couple of paragraphs, but 8
I would plan to release that 9henever the decision is 9
announced.
10 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
We vill have an open l
11 meeting sometime after our deliberations.
12 ER. FOUCHARD4 Thank you.
J 13 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
We vill stand adjourned.
,s It
~
14 (Whereupon, at 11 :30 o ? clock a.m., the l
15 Commission adjourned.)
16 i
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24' 25 ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
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NUC.ZAR REGULATORT CD!GCSSICN This is oc certif7 that the attached ;receedings bercre the c
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rtrwn bEETING - EXDGTICN NO.10 04U4 cf Frcceeding: December 22, 1982 Decket Number:
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Place of Proceeding:
Washington, D C
scre held as herein appears, and. that this is the criqinal transcri therec., for the file of _the Cc:::sissicc.,
Sharon Filipour Official.ieporta.- (Typed) b-orugp h k M Official Reporter (Sig=ature) e g
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