ML20002B131

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Transcript of SE Afifi 801030 Deposition in Ann Arbor,Mi. Pp 124-222
ML20002B131
Person / Time
Site: Midland
Issue date: 10/30/1980
From: Afifi S
BECHTEL GROUP, INC.
To:
References
ISSUANCES-OL, ISSUANCES-OM, NUDOCS 8012090483
Download: ML20002B131 (98)


Text

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124 4

I Ij THE UN!"'ID STATES 2!

NUCLEAR FIGULATORY COMMISSION 3.-

_________.____x 1

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In the Matter of:

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5 CONSUMERS POWER COMPA'iY n

(Mid'*-d o' ant, Unit 1 and 2) 6 ;l g

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _g i

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Bechtel Asscciates, P.C.

c 777 East Eisenhower Parkwav g

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Thursday, October 30, 1930

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10 i E

j Depcsition of i

E 11 SHER!? EL-SAYED AHMED AFIFI, 3

"E 12 the deconent, called for examination by the staff of the

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l Nuclear Regulatory Cc=mision, pursuant to notice, at ?:15 a.m.,

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when were present on behalf of the res=.ective.carties:

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l WILL'.AM D. PATCN a

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RONALD ERICKSON, Army Corps of Engineers 21 il JAMES W. SIMPSON, Ar=y Ccrps of Engineers i

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HAP ~ N. SINGH, Army Corps of Engineers 23j i

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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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on behalf of Censur.ers Power:

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SEAM, LINCOL:7 & BEALE 1 First National Plaza 8

3l Chicago, Illinois 60603 4l1 Sy:

ALAN S. FARNEL*, ESQ.

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_? _R _O C _E _E D _I N G S.

2' MR. PATON:

Dr. Afifi, you have been previously sworn.

3 This is the second day of the deposition of Dr. Sherif 4

Afifi, and we will fo13cw our practice of asking each person in g

5 the room to identify himself.

I guess we skipped over you, eN

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yesterday.

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7 SHERIF EI.-SAYED AHMED AFIFI n

g 8 ! havine. been c.reviousiv dulv sworn, was examined and testifie d as

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9 follows:

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MR. PATCN:

Would vou start, Dr. Afifi?

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Sherif 1.1-Sayed Ahmed Afifi, and I am with Bechtel.

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12 MR. FARNELL:

Alan Farnell, and I am representing

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13 ! Consumer's Power.

m 32 14 l MR. 3RUmiER:

James Brunner with Consumers Power.

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15 'i 5

MR. SIMPSON:

James W. Simpson, Army Corps of Engineers, a[

16 North Central Division.

as 17

'g MR. KANE:

Joseph Kane, U. S. Nuclear Regulatory

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i i Commission.

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i MR. ?ATCN:

William Paton, attorney for the NRC staff.

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20f MR. JCFES:

3radley Jones, attorney for the NRC staff.

3 2I MR. SINGH:

Hari N. Singh, U. S. Ar=v Corts of j

i A1 Engineers Detroit.

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MR. ERICRSCN:

Ronald Erickson, U. S. Army Corps of 24 )gng 3,,73, 3,3;ggg, g

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MR. PATON:

Darl Hood, D-a-r-1, H-o-o-d, is with us, I

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1 but he stepped outside for a minute.

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EXAMINATION 3

3Y MR. PATCN:

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Q Dr. Afifi, do you understand that ycu are snill under I

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Yes, I do.

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7 MR. FAR'EII :

Bill, before we start, Sherif has M

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something he'd like to say.

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Yesterday you recuested the name of the censultant i

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that replaced -- is to replace Chuck Gould on the underpining z

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=atter for the Auxilliary Building, and here is the name of the l

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ccmpany.

I'll give you the piece of paper and I'll read it for i

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the record.

It's Johnson and Desmond Censulting Engineers.

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name of the two persons who are involved are Jim Gould and l

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Ed Burke.

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Q Dr. Afifi, are you able to distinguish what const nction:

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activities were performed by Canonie as oppcsed to the construction i

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g activities performed by 3echtel?

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i 20l v.R. FARNE'I.:

Are ycu talking just soils?

I 21 MR. PATON:

Tet's start there.

I 22 !,

A Not exactly.

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4 23l SY MR. PATON:

1 24 Q

What do you knew abcut it?

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25 i A

I know that, I understand that Cancnie did the entire r

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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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j dikes around the plant, the dikas, and done some work in the 2!

extension of the dikes around the plant.

I do not know the 3'

l exact zones of what areas Canonie has done and the areas Bechtel l'

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6 has done.

That would be construction, construction would be able i

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to answer that,

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Q Who in Construction wculd know that answer?

N.

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I believe it would be A.

Scos.

That's the person that N

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I'm not sure he'd have the detailed M

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z-information, but he's the one.

10 0

Q Oc vcu know the name of the organi:stion he is with, z

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i I mean what section, group, branch?

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My understanding, at the time, Mr. Scos was with the I

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13 i 3echtel Pcwer Corporation at the Midland Construction jcb site.

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He's with.3echteh at the site?

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At the site.

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He's in sc=ething you call Construction?

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A Yes, right, the Construction group.

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Q Construction group; is that what you call it?

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A It's what I call it, yes.

He is with Sechtel n

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! Construction at the site.

i 21 Q

I want to ask you whether you know the name of the 22 h' specific name of the organization at the site that he's with?

23 A

I believe it is Bechtel Power Corporation.

I believe 24 i'

that's the name of the company.

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Q That, I understand, but I want to knew what section, ai ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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group, branch?

2 A

I wouldn't know that.

3, Q

Did there come a time that Sechtel became disatisfied 4

with Canonie's work?

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A I'm not aware of this.

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Q Co you knew whether Canonie continued the werk that they R

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had centracted for, or was their work cut short pric: to the end N

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cf the centract ceried?

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I don't know.

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Who would know that?

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That would be either Sechtel Construction or Sechtel l

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Engineering.

T referred you to A.

Boos, as far as the Con-z 4

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The engineering department would be another source for

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information.

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Q Who might knew that in Engineering?

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'7 l that time, R. L. Castleberry, and he would know who would be able h_

18 to answer this question best.

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19.

O Dr. Adifi, do you have any responsibility to knew what 3

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MR. '."ARNELL :

What time are you talking abcut?

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22 ;

MR. PATCN:

During plant fill operations.

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MR. FARNELL:

Plant fill cperations were going on for a !

24 ' long time.

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25 MR. PATCN:

That's fine.

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l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

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11 3Y MR. PATON:

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Q Did you have any responsibility during plant fill 3

operations to know what was going on at the site?

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would like to try and identify the period, if you 5i would.

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During plant fill operations.

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A You mean at the time the plant fill was originally N

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9 Q

During the time that the plant fill operation:, were 10 going on.

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5 11 MR. FARNELL:

You're talking from 1973

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12 MR. PATON:

No, that's all right.

I den't think you 13 should testified.

I'll ask the witness.

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14 MP. FARNELL:

I'm talline. vou --

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5 15 MR. PATON:

If the witness does not know when plant I

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17 3Y MR. ?ATON:

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-Q Do you know when plant fill operations were going on?

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! wouldn't know exactly when it was going on, but ! can l A

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20l tell you.that after the discovery of the Diesel Generator 1

21 ! Building problem, sometime after that, the Geotechnical group l

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became involved in assisting the remaining fill work at the site.

23 3efore that, I'm not aware of any involvement on our 1

24 l part in the plant fill placement.

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Q After the discovery of the settlement problem at the I.

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3 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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Dicac1 G?ncretor Building, did you hava any roeponsibilitics.to 4

1 iknow what was going on at the site with respect to plant fill?

2 A

For sometime after the problem, the Geotechnical group 3

was not involved in the fill placement, but at some later date, we i

4 became involved, and I don't recall exactly.

Mr. Wancek was e

5 assigned as a coordinator, and his responsibility was to provide s

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Q Did Mr. Wan:ek report to you, activities at the site?

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A Mr. Wan ek reported to me activities as he felt necessary, d

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After the discovery of the problem at the Diesel z

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11 Generator Building, approximately how often would you visit the

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12 site yourself, approximately?

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A I have. visited the site e.robably two or three times a

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i 15 about the ac.c. roximatelv the number of times I have been at the 2

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site, I

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Do you consider that the frecuency of your visits to a=

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18 the site have been sufficient for v.ou to carry out v.our i

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A I rely on the services of Mr. Wanzek who was assigned to l

21lthisjob, and he is supposed to be watching all these activities, d

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You say he was supposed to be watching?

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A He is watching these activities for me.

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So that the information you obtained from Mr. Wan ek, you l

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9believe is sufficient for your knowledge of activities at the i'

i ALDERSON REPORTING COMP ANY. INC.

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I sitetoenableyoutocarrycutyourprofessionalresponsibiliciesf 2l A

Yes.

3 Q

You don't feel that your work suffers any by your 1

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isclation from the site?

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MR. FARNELL:

He didn't say he was isolated from the g

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site.

That question was e.gked and answered, and I don't want

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3Y MR. PATCN:

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Q Can you answer the question?

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He didn't say he was isolated.

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Are you instructing him not to answer?

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No.

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I believe that Mr..Wa=mk sufficiently qualified to eversee g

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2 would have undertaken that involvement.

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BY MR. PATON:

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Oc you knew whether Canonie placed the plant fill 1

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initially under the Diesel Generator Building?

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j 19l-A I do not know for a fact whether he participated, but I i

i 20l have heard statements that scme of that fill was placed by 21 I.Canonie, but I do not know for a fact.

1 22 i i

Q If you have heard that some of the fill was placed by 23 " Canonie, have you heard that some other part of the fill was 24 placed by someone else?

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Yes, I have heard seme other part was placed by semecne j

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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

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1 133 10 1

else.

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Who?

3 A

I believe it is Bechtel.

That's my understanding.

I, 4

again, don't know that #er a fact myself.

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Q Do you know anything =cre than what you have airesdy n

2 6l stated about the division of work between 3echtel and Cancnie with a

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7 res=.ect to clann fill as to who did what?

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A I don't recall anything other than what I told you

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All right.

Dr. Afifi, I'd like to shew you a document z

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On the cover, 3

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it's dated August 3rd, 1979.

It's frem T. E. Johnson of Civil /

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13 l Structural -- and there may be another werd thr.t fo11cws that, but!

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14 l it.'s covered over, at the Ann Arbor Office.

It's to --

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15 : distribution is to E. Rumba, K. Weidner, J. Milandin, P. Martine::,

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g 16 I R. Castleberry, 3. Dhar, sp lied D-h-a-r, S. Blue, and 5. Afifi.

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I,et =e show you that dccument and ask you if you have w

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18 l seen it.

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19 l Why don't I mark that NRC Deposition Exhibit 2, 10-30-30 I

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20l (Afifi).

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A I couldn't read all of the last page.

The copies are s

t' 22 ' not quite clear.

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MR. PATCM:

Could we ask for another coc.v of Fac.e 3?

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24 If you will do that, I'll abandon that line of questioning right I

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25 )' now.

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3 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

134 11.

'l MR. FARNELL:

I'll note for the record that that is one 2

of the documents we produced in response to the Notice of 3

i Deposition.

We produced those documents Monday =crning at i

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approximately 11:30.

1 1

I 3Y MR. PATON:

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O Dr. Afifi, do you know whether data and drawings cen-g n

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! cerning separation of Canonie's work from 3echtel work by t

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n i Construction were ever forwarded to Gectechnical Services for d-c 9

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A I recall scmetime that an attempt was =ade to do that, i

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. was ever ccmpletely done.

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O If it was forwarded to Gectechnical Services to whc=

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! believe the person that would know = cst about it would, 16 !

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' be Mr. Wanzek.

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(Discussien off the record.)

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BY MR..PATDN:

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Q Dr. Afifi, I want to hand you a dccument which is n

20 ;

j numbered in the bwer right hand corner beginning with S3 801725 21 !

i and ending wi h SB 301745.

It's dated August 20, 1979.

It has i,

22 i sthe words, " Work File" written in the upper right hand corner, t

23 '

i land i==ediately below that, Bechtel Associates, professional

.i 243gecrporation.

It's from Karl Wiedner, W-i-e-d-n-e-r of Engineering 4

25 1 uit Ann Arbor.

It is addressed to Distribution.

There are seven a

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ALDERSOt J REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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names, the first one is, copies to P. Secnel, 3-e-e-n-e-1, with I

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  • ke subject is Midland Diesel Genera:Or Task Group 3

Meeting Notes, j

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I turn to the second piece of paper which is numbered j

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S3 801725 and ask you te read the two sentences at the bottom of I

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6 the page beginning "This item enclosed," and follows another R

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7 sentence.

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' dave you read the two sentences, Dr. Afif_?

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9l A

Yes, I have read them.

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10 Q

As a matter of fact, I think for ease of reference, I'll z=

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11 I read the second sentence into the record since this may net be an m

J 12 exhibit.

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"The data and drawings concerning separation of

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14 ! Canonie's work frc Bechtel work by Ocnstruction have been for-i

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warded to Geotechnical Services for review."

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d 17 l reccliection en whether the data and drawings referred to were, in,

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18 i f :ct, ever sent to Gecrechnical Servicer?

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19 l Cnly that I recollect that the attempt was =ade, and A

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n 20 l I'm not sure if such drawings were actually produced and sent, but.!

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21 I this says that they were sent, so as I say, the person who would i

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i 22 ' be mest familiar with these is Mr. Wan.

It's not incencei.vable t

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23 I that they had been forwarded and may be available semeplace.

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1 24 j Q

If they were available, would they be with Mr. Wan=ek l

25 jer under his control?

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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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A: would believe that they would be in the drawing files.

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Where are the drawing files 1ccated?

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The Geotechnical Group Files, the Central Files, if I

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4 they exist, such drawings exist.

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Who has custod.y of these files?

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A The custody of the Central Files is under the nanager.

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Who is that?

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A S. L. Blue.

These files are department files.

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t 9i S. PATON:

Are you willing to le us look at those z-t n

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E 11 MR. FA?2 ELL:

Well, I think you have put it in -- we'll 5

-4 12 entertain any request but I think we 'd like it in writing and in z=

i 13 ; an apprcpriate manner.

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MR. PATON:

You are not willing to let us lock a: these a

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15 ' files without an a-rropriate written request?

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,MR. FAIELL:

Right.

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R 17 MR. PATON:

Is that a change in the apercach to disccverv.,

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18 l that we have discussed?

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19 !

MR. FAP2 ELL:

I thcught that both sides would give a 5n 20 ! formal document production request that differentiated from the t

,I 21 ! request to produce that accc=panied each depcsition notice.

4 i

22 '

Are you talking about looking at these today, or in the i.

23.near future?

1 1

1' 24l MR. SRC;ER:

Do you know which document you want to see?

4 25 If vou'd clace a request for seecific drawings, we'll attempt to t

4 1

i I

I, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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137 I

I 14 4

i, locate them for you.

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2 MR. PATCN:

Would you be willing to provide us :cday with an i'dex to design and construction drawings related te i

3 n

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4l Leil structure foundations, to soils and structure foundations?

5<

(Discussion off the record.)

e i

6

!G. FA?0iELL:

At lunch time we'll attempt to ask the a

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7 apprcpriate people if there is such an index, and if thers is, 3

8i I'll locate it and provide it to you, a

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9 MR. PATCN:

We would like to accept the effer, and to i

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ask that one of the Corps of Engineers, one or two of the Corps 10 l

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i 11 of Engineer people with us to lock at the specific data and

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12 '1 drawidgs referred to in this paragraph.

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13 i MR. 1ARNELL:

I don't know if we can get that for *vou

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E 14 i in two seconds or I den't know if we can get it for ycu today.

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5 15 :

'4R. PATCN:

Will you see, and if it is available, he can 2

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16 -- you have that request under advisement, a

er are you censidering

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p 17 !that last request?

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I don't -- I must have lost ':he page you 're {

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l 19 : referring to.

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MR. PATCN:

The two sentence,. carac.rach at the bottom of i

21 the second piece of pape-i t

22 MR. BRCRTER:

The record should reflect that the re-i i

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23 quested drawings, the data and drawings concerning separation of i ll i

i 24 i Canancnie's work frc= 3echtel work by construction ' and their j

4 i

25 identified en document dated August ist, 1979 entitled Meeting

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l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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138 I

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11 I Notes Number 1018, Midland P7. ant, " nits 1 and 2.

2i I'm not certain we'll be able to find the drawings i

3 but : thought you were referring to a specific set of drawings 41 and these may or may not be identified.

s.

5 MR. PATON:

It seems to me they referred to some V

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l g

6, specific draw!.ngs.

We're asking you to see if that is true, and R

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if it is, could we icok at those drawings?

s 8

MR. 3 RUNNER:

The problem is that I am not sure who 1

d 9

separated out these drawings and frem this document, it's not E

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10 clear who is in possession of the drawings.

z Il MR. PATON:

Okay, we're just asking you to =ake an i

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y 12 atta=pt.

If you can't do it, you can't do it.

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5 (Discussion off the record.)

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m 3Y MR. PATON:

t

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am marking as NRC Staff Deposition Exhibit 3, dated E

14 1 10-30-30 (Afifi).

It's a docu=ent that has a number at the icwer s

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17 richt hand corner, SB 30233 and continues to a document with the a

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18 numbers 53 800238 dated September 13, 1974.

It apesars to be 19 lfrom S. Afifi, but there are lines drawn through S. Afifi, and it'sj I

3 n

l 20! to R. L. Castleberry.

The subject, Plant Area Fill, and-there are t I

4 21 ! copies to five people and copies to 1320 and 3410, which I don't I

i 22 ! know what that means.

3 I

23 I hand you that document and ask you if you have ever f

24 iseen'that before?

4 25 :

MR. FARNELL:

Do you want him to read the whole thing?

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. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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1 MR. PATON:

Off the record.

9. o, 2l (Discussion off the record.)

I 3

MR. FARNELL:

He has seen the document.

i 4

3Y MR. PATCN:

g 5 I Q

Do ycu recall yesterday that we had a discussion, sc=e j

n N

j 6

questions and answers cencerning ce=paction criteria?

A 7

A Yes, sir.

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Q And do you recall there came a time in 1974 when you 3

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said you ad'rised people, you advised sc=ecne what you thcught 10 was the correct ec=paction criteria?

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Yes, sir.

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Is NRC Staff Deposition Exhibit Number 3 the document

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13 ! in which you advised Others what you thought was the ccrrect I

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14 ! ce=paction criteria?

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Yes, sir.

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Q And I direct your attention to a sentence, the second j

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18 ) paragraph which appears en Page SB 300235. I'll read it and then 4

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19 l :'11, hand it to you.

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20 l "This infer =ation will allow a complete evaluation of 2Il any in-place "il'

'cr its preposed function in addition to pre-I 22 i viding information which will be needed for the FSAR.

It should l

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23 ' also clear up any questions as to how fill should be placed in j,

24 ', the future."

I 25 i Do you agree that that's what that second to last 1

.1 3

i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

140 1

paragraph says?

q.

2 MR. FARNILL:

You're asking him if he read it 1'

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correctly?

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MR. PATON:

Yes.

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A I believe you read the paragraph cor ect, yes.

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3 6l 3Y MR. PATON:

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Let me ask you this, based on all of the knowledge you n

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j 9i question as to how fill should be placed in the future?

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MR. FARNILL:

Would you read that back?

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11 (Record read.)

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MR. FARNILL:

The document speaks of any questions and

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MR. PATON:

Your exception is to the fact that

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MR. FARNILL:

I'm saying that I thought you were trying

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to read off that document and you didn't have it phrased right.

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I said question instead of questions; is a=

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that the problem?

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MR. FARNILL:

Yes.

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20 i MR. PATON:

Okay, I'll ask it again.

21 3Y MR. PATCN:

1 22 C

Based on all of the knowledge you have today, is it your!

i 23 '

opinion that this letter -- excuse me, this Inter-office i

24 l Memorandum cleared up any questions as to how fill should be j

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25 1 placed in the center?

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a ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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la 141 1

1 I A

Can you just explain it a little =cre, what the j

2 question is, please?

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All right.

Dr. Afifi, am I correct that you wrote in i

4 this letter, "It should also clear up any questions as to hew fill g

5 should be placed in the future"?

Are those your words?

A g

6 A

believe they are my words.

The meme is signed by me.

I M

7I Q

What does that mean?

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A okay, I believe the intent of the sentence is that it d

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sets forth the percent compaction that should be used for fill

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supporting structure.

That's the intant of the sentence in my, z=3 'll

=y -- the best of =y recollection.

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What does it =ean when it says, "It should also clear i

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13 l up any questions"?

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The question at the time was, should it be 1557 15'l j

Method D, and that is referred to in the first paragraph of the i

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Specifically referring to this sentence, I wanu to ask 1

la i, veu what does it =ean, "It should also clear up any c.uestions as o

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19 !

to hcw fill should be placed in the future"?

What did you mean n

20 bv that?

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I thought I stated ! believe the sentence =eans that i

i 22 l new you know, in my opinien, how fill should be placed below I

23 -

structures, ! =ean, to what degree of ccmpaction it should be 4

24 { placed.

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25 4

l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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142

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You say, now you knew; new who knows?

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A The project, in =y opinion.

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3-0 In your cpinica' t

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A Yes.

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Q

n your epinion this document should clear up any a

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And my M

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questien was, did it accc=plish that; did it clear up any

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questient, as to how fill eheuld be placed in the future?

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A Fr== reading the document you presented to =e yesterday, s

i, 10 I the s"--ary docu=ent and all of those various questions abou: fill z

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13 l engineer, and then the project engineer from then en wculd

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Would you agree that, in fact, this document did not j

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i g 16 j clear up questions as to how fill should.be placed in the future?

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MR. FARNELL:

! think he already answered that.

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lould you answer that?

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A Frc= =y standpoint, the intended purpose of the memo 1

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Q All right.

New frem the documents I showed you --

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A And also the fact that the fill was not, the percen of

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j ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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143 20 1

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c I ccmpaction was no: used on site past that date.

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O When did you first ceme to reali:e that que stions as f'

3 to how the fill should be placed were not resolved after this i

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memo?

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A A

I found cut for sure during the FSAR operation process.

4 3

61 Q

When was that?

n 2

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don't recall when we started and thatwas in the year i

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'76, '77 when we started working on the FSAR and started requesting 9-i i

! infor=atien, detailed information as to what metheds were used and

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f all that.

Then it became evident that method was not used.

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o Is your statement correct:

It was not until apprcximated'y d

12 Z

j two years after you sent cut a memo which states, "It should also i 13 i i

clear up any questions as to how fill should be placed in the E

14 future" that you first discovered that questions as to hew fill

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i should be placed were not resolved; is that an accurate statement?l r

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l MR. FARNELL:

Would vou read that back.

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0 (Record read.)

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l the meth:d was, that my recommendation would not fellow for sure, j

20 ) I knew that during the FSAR operation period, but before that, 6

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21 ldid not knew cne way or the other.

i 4

22 1 1

j 3Y MR. PATON:

l' 23 1 j

Q Dr. Afifi, I believe you told =e ence before, and we j

i 24 i jhad to go through the routine, when was the FSAR preparation done?

  • 25 j A

That was --

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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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i 144 21 1

0 New you're going back to -- I'm trying to get time.

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I'm talking about for sure.

I don't recall if --

did 3

not have direct involvement during that period of time and one f

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not for sure, e

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Would.vour words,.vou didn't knew for sure, de vou aeree '

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7lt with =y statement that my statement is accurace?

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Get the statement.

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asked you, is it true.

Let =e ask you that again.

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Let's have that statement back.

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Is it true or net true?

It's either true er not true. -

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would like to hear it with the modification.

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MR. PATCN:

Fine, let's hear it again with the

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17 modification.

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(Record read.)

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I'm asking ycu, is it true or not true?

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A My answer, I didn't know for sure until two years later. i t

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23.i another for sure if my recemmendation was accepted or net, one way 1 a

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Did you try and find out if it was accepted?

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145 22 I

A No.

2l Q

Dr. Afifi, that two year period, do you recall whether 3

you visited the site, whether vou persona 11v visited the site?

i 4

A

may have visited the site in connection with scmething i

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I recall visiting the site n

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3 6 h once in connection with the pre-award meeting or pre-bid l !

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=eeting for one of the, I believe, intake structure.

I don't 8l j

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period, 10 0

Did you ever consider during this two year period, z_

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I attempt to verify whether the ccrrect compacticn criteria were

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being used?

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don't recall ever attempting to do that, and I don't t

_{ 15 l believe it is =y duty to verify which ccmpaction criteria is to

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project.

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Q Is it your duty to clarify any questions as to hcw

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' My duty at the time, since the question was raised and A

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2I I was asked to provide input, to raccmmend, make a racem=endation I

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to the project engineer.

I 22 '

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Q Are you indicating tha: the duty to provide an answer 24 l to this question only arcse because semeene asked you to do it?

1 25j A

And I became aware of it, so I -- I was asked to comment. l i !

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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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146 i

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23 1 k and I ce=ented.

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Ycu became aware of what?

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A I became aware tha: the method of compacticn 1557 I

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engineer, wall structures.

The question came in frem construction nn g

6I which me hed should we use.

R 7

Q So it was your respcnsibility to provide them with I

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information, or with your opinien en which?

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Mv recomenda:icn.

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And then as I understand it, your responsibility j

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terminates?

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A The way I interpret it, yes.

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to make any determination as to whether or not your recommendation I

15,l is beine followed?

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We're still talking ahcut that two year g

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ceried?

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Yes.

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n Yes, for that -- there's no way I can force the project j g

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20 to do something the project will not accept.

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3Y MR. PATON:

l 22)

Q when you visited the site, if you wanted to verify l

r 23 whether the correct ecmpaction tests were being used, what would a

24 ' you have to do; ask?

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25j A

I really don't knew.

I may -- maybe -- it might be a

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I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

I

l 147 24 fasking,yes,foroneofthethings.

2

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Who would you ask?

3' A

I would ask the Construction people, Construction crew.

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Do you know who, for example you would ask: Mr. Cock?

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A Who is Mr. Cook?

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Q Who at the site would vou ask?

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I would probably ask Mr. -- I don't recall who was in l

8i charge of Construction at the time, that I could have asked a

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during that period.

I wouldhave asked somebody in charge of E

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i Construction at the time.

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So in fact, if it had occurred to veu, vou could have a

4 12 -

I information by just asking somebody?

obtained that z

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MR. FARNELL:

He didn't say that at all.

What do you

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Co vou have trouble with that question?

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Yes.

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Q If you had been interested in finding cat whether the

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correct compaction criteria were being applied to the site, am I l

20 i

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correct that all you would have had to do is to ask semeene at the ;

i 21 I

site; is that correct?

i 22 !

A That is probably correct, yes.

j 23 i

O Is it your practice to review Construction records while !

1 24 j 3 you are visiting the site to see if required specifications on 25 i fill placement are being met?

i 4

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t ALDERSON REPORPNG COMPANY. INC.

1

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i !

148 l

' I 1 !

1 I

MR. FA? SELL:

When are you talkine about?

2I MR. PATON:

During the two year period that we've been 3

discussing.

4, A

That has not been my responsibility and I have not been 5l e

assigned for it.

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(Discussion off the record.)

R R

7 MR. PATON:

There has been some discussion between n

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i cetnsel concerning sc=e records kept by Bechtel at Ann Arbor that 1 I

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! relate to soils at the Midland site.

There has been a reference

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to sc=e large nn-ker, for example 170,000 documents.

The staff isl

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! net presentiv advised of the nature of these documents, and the

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1 Ann Arber with resc.ect to the soil matter in Midland.

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Mv. recollection was thr.t after Isham, Linccin & Beale n

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0 had the opportunity to leek at these documents, seme censideration{

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18 ;

was to be given to providing the staff an orportunity to look at I

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these documents.

I had thought that that opportunity was going to 20 ;

be provided to the staff several weeks ago.

As understand the 21 '

m.

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i 22) i I

I am making this statement on the record because there j

i 23 i

4 is apparently scme disagreement between counsel as to what they 24 j intend to offer in that regard.

That's the end of my statement.

25,

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MR. FARNELL:

-I'll attempt to talk to Mr. ::ameron over i

2 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

1 i

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E-149 4

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I lunch.

.v.r.

Sa: erin was the attorney chiefly involved in some l

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2 conversations dealing wich this subject, and after I've discussed j i

3l this with hi=, I will make a statement.

i 4

3Y MR. PATCN:

r i

g 5l Q

Or. Afifi, did you state yesterday that ccmpacticn that a

et i,

j 6

=eets 95 percent of the 56,000 pound test is apprcximately equal 7

to compaction that meets 100 percent of the 20,000 pound test?

j 8'

A

=eant this in the centext of the Midland clay field.

d 2

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Q Can you tell.'. me the basis en which you arrived at that 4

10 { conclusion?

j z

11 A

The basis is, the first basis that was apparent frc=

8

'd 12 l the Danes and Mccre report that one =eched was substituted for the E

1 l

13 I other.

100 percent of the 20,000 pound in one report was sub-2 5

14 stituted for 95 percent of the other in the other repert.

That is i

$j 15 -

what one basi'.

The other basis is that frem this previous f

16 experience, I feel that way, and we have data right new and the

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17, data is available to the NRC of running both types of test on the

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clay field and the data to suppcrt the statement.

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19 l

,0 to you know whether there were any requirements for n

j 20 l qualifications of ccmpaction equipment that was used at the site?

i 1

21 l MR. FARNELL:

What time are we talking abcut now?

22 ]

MR. PATON:

During plant fill operations, i

23 MR. FARNELL:

Has anything changed over the time, if l

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24 ; you know.

5 i

25 MR. PATCN:

I don't want my question to be amended.

Y i

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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150

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I I asked a questien.

I 2

Ifyou'regoingforalongperiodoftime,l MR. FARNILL:

3 I don't think it's an appropriate question.

Why don't you ask j

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! him for a year or two years?

MR. PATOM:

I'll ask the questiens.

3 6:

MR. FARNELL:

I'll make =y comments, too.

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Can you repeat the question, then?

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3Y MR. PATCN:

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Q Yes.

Do you know if there were any requirements for 1

y 10l' ccmpaction equipment that was used during plant fill operations; j

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i did they have to be qualified in any way?

12 1 f

A I recall that there existed requirements for qualifica-l i

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tien of cc=paction equipment, yes.

3 14 l 3

i Q

Do you know whether those requirements were =et?

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9 15 i i

after the discovery of the unexpected settlement at the :

2 n

16 Diesel Generator Building, my people became involved in tests to 5

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qualify this equipment at t:ie Midland job site.

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i Q

All right, sir.

New please address the ceriod of time 4

i 19

.,i a crior to the discoverv of the problem at the Diesel Generator 20 Building.

21 '

Do you knew whether those equipment qualification re-22 I

quirements were met?

i 23 '

A I do nct know.

24 i

Q Do you know whether those equipment qualification re-t 25 I

quirements were met after the discovery of the problem at the i

i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

i

I 151

,3 l

t l Diesel Generator Building?

l Ia s

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sometime after that period, we cenducted tests, =y l

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.ceeple, under the supervision of =v. c. e c c. l e, and in =v. coinion, i

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I would like to take objection to the werd "qualifica-M 7 i tion of equipment."

I xm using it in the centext of qualifying I

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and a qualified construction precedure, but not a qualified piece.

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of equipment.

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Q Your statement is that there were required precedures; 3

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A qualified precedure for each piece of ec.uir. ment.

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I4 That is a technical significance.

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Q There is a qualified procedure?

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For the compaction equipment.

I, N

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For the compaction equipment.

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m compaction ec.ui.cment," were vou referrinc, to lift thickness?

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A And number of passes.

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Q Would that also include =cisture centent?

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A That's an inherent part of the specification.

It's not j aj 23 I necessarily related.

That's a different sub'ect.

Meisture i

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conditioning has to be done.

It has nothing to do with it.

25 l, Q

s it vour testi=cnv. that after the discoverv. of the i

4 I

9 i

l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

l

l 152 1

29 l

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I problem at 'the Diesel Generator Building these qualified prece-21 dures were followed?

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31 A

To the best of my knowledge.

I 4I Q

And is it also your testimony that prior to the 5

discovery at the Ilesel Generator Building you de not knew a

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6 whether these qualified procedures were followed?

R i

7l A

I believe I stated that prior to the discovery of the j

81 problem, I do not knew if the procedure was developed.

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okay, so you're not even sure whether there were 3

10 !

procedures -- strike that.

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II You're not sure whether there were precedures; is that n

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13 '

A I don't knew for a fact there were procedures.

l 4

i E

I4 Q-After the discovery of the =roblem at the Olesel ue f

=

15,i Generater Building, were qualified procedures followed for both g

=

a[

16 sand and clays?

i N

I7 '

A I believe that in Q-listed areas, the sands were a=

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18 qualified.

I don't believe we qualified the equipment for Q-i 1

I9 '

I s

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listed placement of clay.

m A

20l Q

Would you tell me why not?

II!

A To my knowledge, the application did not exist, that 22 j sand was used in Q-listed areas.

23 j-Q Is optimum meisture the same for both the 56,000 and 24 y the 20,000 pound test?

1 25j A

No, sir.

I-4

~

i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

l

30 153 1

MR. FARNELL:

Why don't we take a little break?

1 2

(Short recess taken.)

3 3Y MR. PATON:

I 1

4 O

Dr. Afifi, I show you a table 12-1 which is entitled 5

Su= mary of Supporting Soil Conditions and Planned Remedial e

i nN i

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6! Measures for All Safetv RElated structures and Utilities.

I'm a

s n

7 not going to = ark it as a deposition exhibit unless your counsel

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8l requests =e to do it, because it is in vclu=e 1 of NRC responses j

I l

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5 10 Ouastion 12.

z=

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11 I want to direct your attention specifically to the s

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12 I paragraph under Supporting Scil Conditiens i==ediately to the

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I'd like you to read the entire document.

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14 i MR. FARNELL:

I would like to see the entire response t

2 I

15 l to the Ouestion 2 to see where this came from and put it in con-e.

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17 i MR. PATON:

I would also indicate that the table that u=

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18 l I have referred you to is Table 12-1, Page 1 of 5, revision I and i

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19 it's dated 9-79.

5.e 20 !

By MR. PAron:

21l Q

In the sentence that I asked you to read, there is a I

22 ] reference to a possible local void.

My questien is, do you knew 23 ' whether or not that void is real?

24j gR, FARNg;L:

I don't think we have established that I

i 25 j Sherif wrote this letter.

I i

d 3

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

I

I 154 i

31 I

MR. PATON:

All right, I'll back up.

2 3Y MR. PATON:

3 Q

Do you know whether there is a possible local void under.

t 4,

concrete =at elevation 590 to 539 at boring AX o' t

l 5l H

i g

i a

The best of my recollection, that has been reported en l

2 6'i the boring leg for that boring.

It's one out of three borings j

R i

7 in the area.

Mj 8

j Q

Your answer is that it has been reported on the boring 0

9l log?

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10 5

A To the best of my recollection.

z; l

i 11 MR. FARNELL:

Would you read back the question.

3 N

I2 l (Record read.)

5 1

13 '

1 3

3Y MR. PATON:

i

=

l E2 14 l' Q

Does your response mean that there is a possible local l

=

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3 void under concrete mud mat elevation 590 to 589 at boring AX-9?

15 :

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I0 A

Yes.

17 Q

Mcw this next question specifically refers to the word,

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I'm asking you, is there, in fact, a local void in l

19 i d that. area?

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My question is your degree of certainty.

Is it i

2I pcssible or are you certain that there is one there?

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MR. FARNELL:

Or any other radiation, I gather.

23h A

Would you read the question again?

1 i

24 3 J

3Y MR. PATON:

S, 25 0

Yes.

How do you know there is a possible 1ccal void j

ll i

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

I

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155 i

32 I

under concrete mud mat elevation 590 to 529 at boring AX-9?

2' A

! believe stated that that was reported on the t

3 boring log to the best of my recollection.

{

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Q Did the boring log indicate to you that there was a 1

5'l cessible void or that there is a real void?

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I did not personally drill the boring, so I don't think R

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words -- you have said possible local void, and I would have to

  • J 9

I say in my judgment it would have to be a possibility of a local 2

i 10 '

t void.

z i

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Q Cn what infor=ation do you base your answer that there i3 5

12 :

is a possible local void in that area?

j 13 A

I recall at the time the borings were drilled that that 5

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eliminate the void?

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18 l MR. FARNELL:

He didn't say there was a void.

He said j

19 2

there was a nossibility of a void.

Are you eli=inatine the 4

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a 20 possibility of a void?

II 3Y MR. PATCN:

i i

223' i

Q Has any action been taken to --

d 23]

-A Can : take a look at this?

I 24 1

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4 Q

Sure.

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A The remedial action, I would like to include for the l

25]

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i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

1 I

l 3

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i 33 i

I' record, the propcsed remedial action is included on the fourth 1

2 column of the table and it states, "?ressure grouting, avoid i

3!

below concrete mud =at as needed."

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Q Co you know whether you plan any further investigation S

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6j to determine whether or not that void is a possible void or a g

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7l real void?

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That would be apparent at the time grouting actually d

i 9 '.

takes place.

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Q You mean at the ti=e you start grouting ycu will not z

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No, I didn't say that.

I indicated already that the E

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local veid.

Grouting has not been accc=plished yet.

And greuting c=

15f will be acce=plished as it is promised in this respense.

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As need, isn't that what it says?

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Yes.

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18 i

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5 20 !

A You just si= ply pump, continue to pu=p grout until 2} I

- you cannot accept anymore grout, in my cpinton.

o 22 Q

Have you conducted any other explorations at close a

t spacing te determine whether there are other voids or pcssible l

I 1

24l voids?

I i

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i 25q xa. FAaNz;;:

nepeat that, please.

i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.

1 1

34 157 I

(Record read.)

2 MR. FARNELL:

I don't think he testified they did 3; explorations at c1cse basings.

4j MR. PATON:

I believe you are correct.

J i

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5l BY MR. PATCN:

l s

6, 0

Have you conducted any investigations to deter =ine g

R 7i whether there are other voids or possible voids within 50 feet I

Nj 8

I' of the void, the possible local veid that is mentioned here?

Jc 9

z, A

The borings conducted in this area, I do ne recall how o

10 l far away f cc each other, but this particular bcring is one out z=

11 l of three in the simited area of the control tower, and there has i

f 12 !

been nc, to =y knowledge, possible voids reccrded on any of the

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other berings in the vicinity.

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In your professional judg=ent, is the investigation l

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15 ;

that has been conducted here sufficient to determine whether or w

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not there are other voids or possible voids within 50 feet of j

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MR. FARNE;;:

I don't believe he said they conducted

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g a investigations as to that possible veid.

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i 20l MR. PATON:

Okay, if he didn't, that's fine.

That's a 1

21 good L_

22]

A Yes, we did not.

I don't believe we conducted investi-1 23 } gations just for that purpose, but there were borings drilled.

I 24j The dates on the boring legs would indicate when the horings were 1

25 3 drilled.

I don't recall how =any of these were drilled before and!

i i

l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

I l

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158 35 i

1l how =any of these were drilled after.

i 2i 3Y MR. PATON:

l 3

0 Do you knew whether there are any voids or possible f

4, voids within 50 feet of the possible local void that is mentioned 5

in this paragraph I asked you to read?

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gell, ; knew that to the best of my kncwledge, ncne was R

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4

.nj 8

Q Dr. Afifi, that's not =y question.

My question is, de d

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?

10 feet of the local, of the possible local void mentioned in this E

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paragraph?

i Y

I2 l MR.

ARNELL:

I think he answered that.

5 a

I 5

13 !

MR. PATCU.:

If he did, I'd like to knew the answer.

=

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The answer is that to the best of my kncwledge, nene

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15 were reported in the borings that were taken in that vicinity

=

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=

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That's the same answer you gave mi 5efore.

You said

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18 none were reported.

i W

1 I9,

A Yes, sir.

a j

4 20 Q

My question is, do you know whether there are any there,l i

21l and I conclude from your ane er that you don't knew whether there i

22 ( are any there er you -- have you concluded that there are none 23 there, or what?

4 24 Q

My question is, to the best of your -- are there any 1

1 1

25 I

voids or possible voids within 50 fact of the possible local void l

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

l l

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l !

36

' 59 i

i I ; mentioned in this paragraph?

i 2

A Can I speak with my counsel?

t 3

i MR. PATON:

Certainly.

l I

4 t'

(Discussion off the reccrd.)

i i

5 l

g A

My answer to your questien is that I den't knew.

H 6

BY MR PATON:

R f7 Q

Did knowledge cf this possible local void, was that n!

8, developed frem an exploration that was =ade?

d I

9 li MR. FARNILL:

I think it has been stated that it's a z

h 10 boring log and the boring log developed the knowledge of a z

=

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Q 11 i possible local void.

I don't understand your question.

I

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12 l BY MR. PATON:

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Q Did knowledge of this possible local void ceme-from l

=j 14 ! borings that were performed?

_=

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t A

From a boring.

e i

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16l Q

Now, do you plan to require additional berings to i

17 investigate whether there are other voids or possible voids?

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18

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x ge,

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Dr. Afifi, if I asked you whether voids are sometimes t

a n

i 20i discentinuous, do you understand ny question?

e 21 A

Yes, sir.

22 L Q

Could you explain to =e what that neans, of what your I

23 ; understanding of that werd means?

l 24lI A

A li=ited area that is -- it would not be extensive in l

25 l! size.

i i

1 5

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

160 37 I

I i

11 6

Dr. Afifi, do you plan any borings or other

{

2l explorations fc the purpose of deter =ining whether there are l

3 other voids or possible voids within 50 feet of the possible 4

local void that is =entioned in this paragraph?

5 MR. FARNELL:

That's been asked and answered.

e nN 6?

MR. PATON:

Off the record.

ee i

R R.

7 (Discussion off the record.)

A i

81

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I don't know at this time.

n i

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9i BY MR. PATON:

z_'

10 Q

Dr. Afifi, I show you Pages 13-1 through 13-6 which z

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11 l has attached to it, several figures.

This is in volume 1 and it's z

i 12!. Conscmar's Answer to Staff Question 13.

4 z_

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3 14 ! Near the top of the page, there's a Paragraph Number 2.

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2 15 j MR. FARNELL:

Is there a revision date on that?

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16 i MR. PATON:

No ravision date on either 13-1 or 12-5.

s i

17 There is on 13-2.

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18j MR. FARN-**-

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ou're just going to ask about 13-5' i

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19 L MR. PATON:

13-5 has no revision date on it.

r 5

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Fine.

l i

21j 3Y MR. PATON:

)

i 22 i Q

fou can read any part of this that you want, but =y I

i 23 question is gcing to specifically address this sentence:

"The l

3 J

24 ) analysis of buried structures with bends or restrained ends is i

i 25 l based on the equations for beams on an elastic foundation."

i 4

i ALDERSON RE ORTING COMPANY, INC.

t

. a

38 l

161 1

I'll tell you =y question.

The first one is going to l'

l 2l be, what were the values of the modulus of sub-grade reaction 3

used in the analysis?

l 4l A

don't know.

i 1

5l Q

Do you know who within 3echtel would know that?

e 1

i

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3 6i A

That would be Mr. Char, D-h-a-r.

Mr. Ohar, he would be l

g 7

the person to refer to for that answer.

t 8l Q

Do you have any responsibility to determine these l

l l

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9 values?

i b

10 A

Sometimes.

5 i

3 11 l C

When?

l l

8 i

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When requested by project engineering in connection z=

5 13 l with any specific problem.

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14,

C Have you been asked for these values at anytime?

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I don't know.

e 6

i 16 l MR. FARNELL:

He's talking about these values set forth !

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M I

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in 13.

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18 l 3Y MR- ?ATON:

=

l Q

My question, and I'll state it again, the question was, 19 s

O 20l whau were the values of the modulus of sub-grade reaction used in 2; l the analysis?

1 22,

MR. FARNELL:

You're just talking this analysis on il

,i 23. Page 13-5?

j i

MR. PATON:

Yes.

l 24}

t 25 l A

don't recall if there was specifically asked about i

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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

9 I

39 162 I,

this.

1 2

3Y MR. PATON:

3 i

g If I were to ask you how were these values determined, I

i i

i 44 would you again refer me to Mr. Dhar?

t g

5 A

Yes, sir.

A 9g 6I Q

If you had been asked for these values, would there be g

R 6

7 any records that would reflect that in the documents you have N

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8 provided to the NRC, that you have personally provided to the NRC J*

9 z.

for the purpose of this deposition?

I i

10 A

Not necessarily.

E i

11 Q

Where would those documents be?

8 i

y 12 !

A It's possible that it's a computation made and handed

=

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in to project.

g i

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5 Q

And you would not keep a record of that?

4

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2 15 A

It would be in the calculations file.

a=

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16 l Q

There is a calculations

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'kat you don't keep e

17 yourself?

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A That's correct.

5 I

i 19

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.Q Is there an index to that calculation file?

i.

n i

20 !

A I believe so.

l 21ll I

MR. PATON:

Mr. Farnell, would you be willing to 22 ! provide a copy of that index?

23 '

MR. FARNELL:

At lunch we'll make an effort to locate l

i 24 '

it.

I would also like to put on the record that we are being I

l 25]1 cooperative in looking for the indexes, I would expect the same i

s i

d ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

l

i

,,203 40 I

I treatment frc= the NRC.

I take it by your sound that you would 2I agree with that?

i 3!

MR. PATON:

No, I didn't make any ce==ent.

I think we 4,

have sc=e disagreement between us as to how much cooperatien each g

5 side is extending to the other side.

n N

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MR. FARNELL:

If I ask you for certain indexes, are i

7 I' e

a l you going to say no?

A 8 ll MR. PATON:

I think that the NRC has been extremely e

i

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9i z.

I cooperative in providing documents up to this date to the point 10 z

j of croviding handwritten notes in the persen's personal file.

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12 i

'that has been requested.

Right new I am not aware of anything

=

5 13 I that would indicate anv. change in that tv.e.e of cocc.eration.

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14 I' E

i SY MR. PATON:

Y h

15 2

Q Do you know whether anyone at Sechtel has re-evaluated

=

5 I

f 16 l the value of the modulus of sub-grade reactions be use of 17 '

.M inadequatelv. ce== acted soils at the Midland site?

l 18l' MR. FARNELL:

Again, are we referring to Page 13-5?

4 19,

n (Discussien off the record.)

20l!

MR. PATON:

The question does not linit itself to

  • 1 i 3

Page 13-5.

It references to any sei:=ic analysis that has been 1

I 22 i made.

i i

23 j

MR. FARNELL:

Another question.

Are you talking about j

i 24)i all buildings, specific buildings?

3 25 '

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MR. PATON:

I'm referring to buildings founded on the ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

i l

l

s.

163 I

A I

Il inadequately c0=pacted plant fill.

2 MR. FARNELL:

Repeat the question.

i 3

37 33, 7;733, i

Q Dr. Afifi, do you know whether anyone at 3echtel has g

5l re-evaluated the value of the mcdulus of sub-grade reactions for !

H 3

6kinput into sei:mic analysis of structures founded en inadequately '

1 g

=S 7

I compacted scil at the Midland site?

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A The answer is, I don't knew for sure.

-J l

9l z-1 Q

Dr. Afifi, I want to =ake a statement and ask you whether E

10 ! vou agree with it or whether vou believe it is true.

z 1

=

g 11l1 "The re=edial =easure for the inadequately compacted E

12 '

I soil under the electrical cenetration areas of the Auxilliary

=

1 13 !

g Building is to bridge over the questionable scil utili:ing the 5

14 !

E structural capacity of the electrical penetration recms by I

15 0

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Do you agree with that?

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again?

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A Yes.

19 i

G "The remedial measure for the inadequately===pacted I

n 3

20 '

l l soil under the electrical penetration creas of the Auxilliery 21 i I

! Building is to bridge over the questionable soil utilizing the 22 '

? structural capacity of the electrical penetration recms by 23 ' providing caissens at their extremities. "

s 24 )*

MR. FARNELL:

Your question is whether --

25 '

I j

MR. PATCN:

Whether he agrees that that is true.

i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

165

,. 3

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I l MR. FARNELL:

Word for word?

{

i 2

A Can you explain to me what that means, please?

i 31 3y gg, pg7c3:

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3 them.

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.m not clear on the question.

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The question is, is that a clear statement?

-nj 8

MR. FARNILL:

Is it werd for werd true, in substance a

=.

9l true?

j Z

l i

l f10 (Discussion-off the record.)

l

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I 12 l Q

Can you answer the question?

g I

13 !

5 A

I am not sure the questien is technically ccrrect.

=

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Q Do you mean that you're not certain that all the facts i

I 15 b

I read to you are true; is that what you're saying?

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A No, I'm not referring to facts.

I'm referring to the

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y interpretation of what is being done.

I'm not sure whether that j

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is technically correct.

i 19 i

,Q You mean the proposed remedies, you're not sure I n

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21 i A

I'm not sure the entire statement you read accurately 3

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22 I f

reflects, is technically, is correct technically to describe i

s 23 4 what will be done.

I'm not sure.

24 i

i 0

Can you tell =e what part of it you are not sure of?

,\\

25 A

The reference to bridging and the structural capacity i

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

I

,3 166

,s-i '

cf the structure, things that I can't answer.

I i

2 Q

All right.

Is there a problem with inadequately 3

compacted soil under the electrical penetration areas of the I

4l Auxilliarv. suilding?

i I

s 5

A In my opinion, yes.

n l

N l

g 6i Q

s there a proposed remedy?

j 7

A Yes, sir, s!

8!

Q What is that proposed remedy?

=

2 9

z, A

To install caissons at both extremities of that, of

-j

, these two electrical penetrations.

10 t

j 11 l

=

Q I will ask you about the very last thing you said, it 3

Y 12 ' is to provide caissons where?

=,

I.

g 13 i A

Install caissens at the extremities of the two

=

l 5

14 electrical penetration areas, at both ends of the two electrical I

-:j 15 penetration areas.

t j

16 O

Do you agree that the preposed remedy you just recited i

i l

l 17 : would transmit half of the load frem the electrical renetration x

=

1 1

=

18 j rec =s en the proposed caissens and the remainine half en the m

=_

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1 19 i contr.cl tower?

g 5

20 P.R. FARNELL:

Can I have that read back?

2I l (Record read.)

i i

i 22 l A

I don't know.

l 23j SY MR. PATCN:

I!

24 i 0

Do you know who would know that?

I 25 A

This is a structural questien.

I 4

l d

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

I

l 167 44 j

i 1

i 1-0 Is it true that the caissons would support part of the i

1 2

lead imposed by ths electrical penetration areas?

3 A

I believe so.

4 Q

And the centrol tower would support the other part cf e

5l that lead?

s I

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MR. yam; ELL:

! think he said -- that's been asked and g

i 2

7 answered.

I "g

8 A

I believe that response to that should be provided by d

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?

10 SY MR. PATON:

z=

1 g

Ilj, Q

Do you have any idea whether the control tower would j

l l

I2 l support part of the lead imposed by the electrical penetration

=

l 3

1 13 areas?

g 1

m i

14,i MR. FARNELL:

I'm going to object to form.

i i

15 A

In my judgment, I'm not a structural engineer, but in i

j 16l

=y judg=ent, there would be sc=e lead transfer.

i N

I7 !

BY MR. PATON:

a i

3 l

1' w

i 18 1

3 Q

Is it correct that you don't know what portion of the i

19 l total load imposed by the electrical penetration area would be i

M 20l supported bv the control tower; is that correct?

21 A

Can you restate this, please?

5 I

22f Q

I believe you have stated that part of a load of the f

l 23 electrical penetration area would be supported by caissens; is 9

24 -

that correc-'

k i

25i A

Yes, sir.

i a

R i

d ALDERSON. REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

1

i I

l 163 1

,a l

l O

I believe you have also staced that part of the load 1

2 i= posed by the electrical penetration area would be supported by 3

the control tower?

4 A

-Yes.

I g

5l Q

Do you knew what =rocortion of the total 1 cad incased 4

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by the electrical penetration areas would be supported by che g

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7.i' control tower?

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A I would not know how much of it.

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Will the remedy you described for this prcblem result I

5 10 l in an additional lead on the control tower?

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_i IIl MR. FARNELL:

Additional compared to what?

i d

I2 l MR. PATON:

Whatever was there before the remedy.

E 8

y 13l A

I thought I stated that the answer to that should come I4 :i

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15 !

be some lead transfar and I didn't know hcw much.

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16 :

3Y MR. PATON:

a N

17 '

Q Will that additional lead that is transferred cauce the 5

18 1 centrol tower to settle?

o 4

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A That depends on the magnitude of the load.

In my s

20 judgment, the material there is quite good and the settle =en:

I 21 ;

would have to be small.

t 5

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Q You mean the material below the control tower?

l 23 A

Yes, sir.

i i

'l l

1 24 j Q

Do you know of any investigation of the possible l

i i

25 ! settlement of the control tewer because of the additional weight i

'l 5

4

,1 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

I

16 1'

169 1

imposed by the remedy that you have described?

2 A

I don't knew if one is planned at this time.

3 Q

Can you name a person who would be knowledgable with j

4

respect to the scount of lead that would be transferred to the e

5 centrol tcwer because of tne remedy you have described?

2 6:

1, A

I believe I earlier stated that that would be Mr. Dhar M

I R

7' l who would be able to refer you to -- that information would be 8! under his control, the Civil Group Supervisor.

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Q You indicated that he could give us the answer er that 6

10 8' he would refer us to sc=ecne else?

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A This is his area of control.

He is in control of that d

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information, to my knowledge.

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I'm not sure I know what you mean by " control."

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example, if I ask Mr. Dhar the cuestions I ask you, do you knew

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if he wculd provide the answers or would he refer us to someone?

T 16 j

j I believe he would provide you an answer.

A F

17 i

d Q

Dr. Afifi, in recognition of the possible local void E

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18 1 g

l under the centrol tower, which we were discussing a few minutes l

t 19 5

I ago, -auui the additional load that will be imposed on the control n

20 tower caused by the remedy you described for the soil problem 1

21 i i

in the electrical penetration area, in your professional judgment, 1

22 ji is there a need to investigate the extent of possible voids and i

I 23 81 future settlement?

I 24.

1 MR. FAPrdI,I.:

Let's take them one at a time, j

a 25 BY MR. PATON:

3 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

l

l.

I 170 I

Mt 1,

O Is there a need to investigate the exten of possible i

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2l voids in that area?

i l

i 3 g' A

All of the information that is available to =e at this I

4i

'4 e indicates that this possible void is local.

That's what I i

5 can recall frcm the informationse have.

On that basis, I believe e

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t 6i that I wculd croceed with groutin~D as the remedy for that

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situation.

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O Do I take your answer to mean that you'd see no need e

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9l for further investigatien of the extent of possible voids?

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Not at this ti=e.

z=

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11 Q

How about the need to investigate future settlement?

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As soon as the lead is known, the future settlement can

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Q Can you tell =e what data you will use to calculate t

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15 that ecssible future settlement?

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It would be the available results of the berin; '. cgs l

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I 17 i below the area, in this area.

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O Would that include censelidation test results?

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A These are sands where we have standard penetration g

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tests.

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21 Q

Let =e just finish up this area.

I don't think it will l i

22 take =cre than ten minutes.

l 23 l Fith rescect to the use of caissens at the end of the l

4 1

e 24 l electrical penetration area, has Bechtel made an analysis to

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25 j deter =ine the a=ount of expected settlement of the caissens?

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i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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43 3 *3 1,

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A That analysis is being made and will be included as l'

1 2l part of the Responses to the 5054F.

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Q Can you tell us who is invclved in making this analysis?

3 A

That is being made by my group.

4!

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Are you doing it, or is someone under your supervision 0

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Someone under =y supervision.

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Who is.that person?

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Can you tell us what kind of information he is using z

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It's the soil properties that have been previously used ;

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in the plant settlement analysis of the major structures at the I

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2 plant site, such as containment in the Aux Building.

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j MR. PATCN:

Would you read that answer back.

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16 l (Record read.)

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MR. FARNELL:

Are vou referring to some data he talked 5

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settlement data from the Surcharge Program.

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2I MR FARNELL:

You're referring to soil property data?

l 22 '

MR. PATCN:

I'm asking whether his answer included --

23) j MR. FARNELL:

Respeat the question, please.

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SY MR. PATCN:

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n your previous answer, you used the expressien, scil 2ll properties.

My questien is, when you used that expression, did 3'

i l you mean to include settlement data from.the Surcharge Fregram?

I 1

4i A

I did not mean that.

Q Do you plan to use settlement data frc the Surcharge n

6, o

. Program?

R b

2 7 lf A

The analysis is not complete, and it's possible that 2

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Off the recGrd.

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i (Discussion of:. tn.e recorc.)

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l 3Y MR. PATCN:

3 l'

12,

l Q

Is there a potential soil problem at the service water l

z 4

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. structure?

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Yes.

-u 15 2

Q Could vou describe briefiv and generally, the ecoc.esed i

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remedy for that.rchle=?

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A Thc cantilever pertion of that structure is supported

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i en fill.

T.'.e results of the berings in the area indicate that tP

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19

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j naterial is inadequate, has inadequate p cperties.

For that r,aseni, 20 'iJ i

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?.:iles are croc. esed to sup=. ort the cantilever, the end of.that t

21 i Lcantilever.

3 i

22 4 Q

Is there an analysis being made to determi.e the etcunt 23 i

,of the expected settlement of the piles?

i, 24 i I

j A

Yes, sir.

i 25

l O

Who is making that analysis?

i 0

j ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.

I 50 173 I

A

?. K. Chen.

i 2

Q Can you tell us what kind of data he.is using in i

3

=aking that analysis?

4 A

The same type of data that is used for the analysis of I

e 5l the caissens.

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Q

recall you just indicate, I believe, that you are u

n 7

going to use the same type of data?

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A Yes, sir.

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Q And I recall your answer to be with respect to -- I

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10 regall your answer to be that you were going to use soil z=

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Soil properties were obtained originally by site w

j I4 l investigations by Oames and Moore, which are included in the FSAR, e

15 additional laboratory tests'that were conducted on plant fill afte/

f 16 i the disec rery of the Diesel Generator Building, and borings made d

i f

I7 after the discovery of the Diesel Generator Building problem, as j

I s

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I8 l well as before the discovery of the Diesel Generator 3uilding i

19 :croblem.

i 2

5 a-20 1

(Luncheon recess.)

II l MR. BRUNNER:

The record snould reflect this morning f

I 22 l that Mr. Paton made a request tor documents entitled "Drawir.cs i

23 i

jconcerning Separation et canonie Work from Bechtel Work."

l J

t 24 Consumers agreed to attempt to locate thoce documents at Bechtel's l

25 Ann Arbor offices today.

We were informed that the documents are j

i l

I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

l

l

2,_

l : not available at Ann Arbor, and may be at the site.

l l

1 2'

Consumers has agreed to attempt to locate the requested !

i i

3 l documents at the site and to.crevide those documents, amonc. them l

i 4I which are discoverable.

e 5

G. PATON:

Cff the reccrd.

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(Discussion eff the record.)

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7i MR. BRUNNER:

The documents I referred to are described I

i nj 8

cn Page 1 cf the document entitled, Meeting Notes Number 1013, d

9

9) date August ist, 1979.

Subject, meeting of the Diesel Generater z

c 10 I Building Task Group.

I will read frem the sentence of that z

i 1

E 11 l carticular document which describes the documents, which as I 4

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i

'i 12 I understand, have been requested.

If that sentence doesn't I

z i

d 13 I c.recerly describe the dccuments, then I request that a question l

w i

l

i 14 he nade bv Mr. Paton.

The sentence which describes the do " ents t

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r, 15 1 is as follows:

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j "The Caia and drawings cencerning separation of Canonie's, 16 M

i d.: 17, work frc= 3echtel werk by construction."

I

-5 18j (Oiscussion off the record.)

i t.

19 '.

MR. PATCN:

The infor=ation that Mr. Brunner has iust x

=

f 20 f addressed is data and drawings concerning separation of Canonie's l l

4 21 l work from 3echtel work by construction, which is referred to on I..

22 l a page that has been marked as S3 801726, entitled Meeting Notes,

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4 l1 l

23 ' which dacument was identified just now by Mr. Brunner.

The ex-l t.

24 e pression comes frem two sentences at the bottom of the document I

25 which reads as follows:

i l

a i

1j ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

i

I 175

-n 3.

1!

"This item is closed.

The data and drawings concerning l

i i

I 2l separatien of Cancnie's work frc= 3echtel work by constructicn l

i I

I 3'.have been forwarded to Gectechnical Services for review."

I i

4l MR. FARNELL:

This =crning you made a statement con-I i

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5! carning the large number of 3echtel documents that are at Ann j

i H

1 6

Arbor dealin; with soil.

I indicated that I would speak to i

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e 7 l Mr. xmerin over the break and to discuss this matter with him.

R 3

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.n 8l I spoke with Mr. Za= erin, and he indicated that we had told you n

t l

i t

9 these docu=er.ts dealt with the Midland soil issue and we have not i I

z-i j

1]

10 j read them yet.

He also indicated that we would respond to a z

l 4

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5 11 ' proper document request asking for specific documents and the

<3 6

12, documents produced in response to the docu=ent request which would z

i

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13 ? come from this large nc=ber of soils documents at Ann Arber.

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We told ycu that we would produce a porr'.cn of the i

.9 15 ; docu=ents in Mr. Afifi's file or under his control, and we have 6

I x

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T 16 l done this.

You will note that the Notice of Deposition and the i

5 I

I n

i i

17 request to produce therein only calls for these documents, and we r

a 18 l

! have fulfilled that request.

E 1

C, 19 4,

Mr. Zamerin also told me that he had indicated to you a

i j

20 that we would provide a one page su==ary of the dccuments cen-s.

s 21 l tained in the large number of documents, not that we would I

22 jproduce the index to the docu=ents.

i I

23 '

I also note for the record that we have made a docu=ent

,j 24 production request set fcrth in each of our Notices of Deposition.',

i i

i 25

,1 Mr. Paton requested that we agree for the time being that he only u'I

. i s'

1 a

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

i

i i

176 i

l 53 i

i i

produce those documents in'the possession or control of his 2'

NRc staff personnel or the Corps persennel.

We accommodated 3 f Mr. Paton for tde time being, but we also note for the ' record I

4 !

that our request is still outstanding for the other documents l

1 g

5l and has not been complied with yet.

e M

i I

j 6l MR. PATON:

I will state that that is my first knowledge M

d 7l ever that we'are now introducing a, fer the - time being, concept u

i g

8j. into this case.

It was :gr clear understanding that we had agreed

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9 I that the document request in the Notice of Oeposition was to be zo l

's10l understood to mean the docu=ents within the control of each z

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i 11 ' person, and if it is now being amended that that agreement is new l 3

g.

12,

amended to be "for the time being" that is my first knowledge of I

3g 13 i that subject, but if that is -- I have no further comment.

i 2

i 14 l BY MR. PATCN:

b i

l j

15 '

Q Dr. Afifi, I show you a letter dated October 22, 1979

=

1 16 g

from Mr. G. S. Keeley to Mr. J. A.

Rutgers of Bechtel Power i

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17 Corporation, and ask you if you've ever seen it before?

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A I do not recall seeine this letter.

I i,

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s 19 j Q

-I show you another document which I will not make a

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M 20 i deposition exhibit.

This is in volume 1 of your response to the i

II!

5054, Question 2, and I ask you to read the question and the 4

22 i) response.

l 23 MR. FARNELL:

Did vou make that an exhibit?

1 1

4 t

i i

4 24 ;

MR. PATCN:

I have =arked the letter from Keelev to l

l 25 Rutgers as Deposition Exhibit Number 4, today's date, October 30, 4

i 8

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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177 54 1,3980.

$_< _4 _e.4 2

BY MR. PATON.

l 3 !

O All right, sir, my question is, is there a problem with I

4, natural sar.ls under the service water structure?

5 g

A I am not aware of the problem below the.serfice water

-i

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lll 6 l' structure.

_n*

7 Q

Are there loose sands under the ser-fice water pump Mj 8

structure between elevations 599 and 601.5?

9 z.

A Sir, I do not know this for a fact, but it is stated in o

(

10 I "b

the response that there are two and a half feet of loose sand z

t r

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under the serfice water portion of the structure.

em 12 i

Q Other than this document which is Page 2.1 frc= the

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5054 F response to volume 1, you have no knowledge that there are 2

1 14 lany -- do you have any knowledge that there are any loose sands si j

--=

m 15

,bader the service water pu=p structure?

I 4

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A The fill portion, the fill itself contains loose sand

=

i i

j 3,l,and that's why the watering system is going to be implemented.

=

1

{

18 (Discussion off the record.;

r 19 M

i SY ?1R. PATON:

I 20l Q

A:te there loose sands below the structure?

1 2Il MR. FAR: ELL:

Are you referring to anywhere below, I l

i 22 lrean, depth-wise down to the center of the earth?

1 i

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j 23 '

P A

Available borings, so to =v recollection, there are t

. 24 l

31oose sands below the fill supported portion of the st ucture.

i 3,

25 j Q

Are the loose sands in the fill?

i t

N l

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

1 1

55 j

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':'c =y recc.11ection, the fill contains leese sands and i

2 the response here, refers to two and a half feet.

It could be j

i 3

in the boundarv between Icese natural sand and fill 4ust at the l

4 i

I boring SW-6 as indicated at the ti=e the response was pre. tared.

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5 i

Q Are you aware of any ec==it=ent in the PSAR to rmeve i

n i

e natural sands less than 75 percen: dense?

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7 A

Yes, sir.

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=n Q

Did Le hcel re=ove natural sands less than 75 percent j

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z-9l~dense in the cower block area?

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een t acw.

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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

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179 1

Q What was your understanding of the committment in the.

l f

2-PSAR to remove natural sands less than 75 percent _ dense; to what 9

i i

3i did it extend, to whnt area did;it extend?

f 4

A I don't recall all of the details.

I just recall that 3

5, there was a committment to remove sands with a density of less R

l y

6! than 75 percent.

R 1

2 7

Q And your testimony is that you don't know whether that A[

8l was done or not?

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2 9I Do you know whether it was done or not?

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I do not know, no.

J.

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l 11 Q

Under whose responsibility would.that fall, to know 1

2 l

I 12 whether that was complied with or not?

4 1

g 13 i (Discussion off the record) 4

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A Please repeat the question.

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SY MR. PATCN:

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Whose responsibility would it be to determine whether i

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17 there was compliance with the committment in the-PSAR, discussed x

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18 concerning natural sands with a density less than 75 percent?

i I

i-g - I9 A

Project Engineering.

i i

M 2

20 Q

Who, specifically, in Project Engineering?

?

21 A

I don't know specifically who in Project Engineering.

4 22 Q

Sir, I want to read you a sentence from the last para-

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23 ' graph of this letter, and if you'd like to see it, I'll hand you j

24 the document.

1 25',

"Therefore we de not accept the argument that because the r

-i i

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

130 1

recent borings showed natural sands which had relative density n

u 2

greater than 75 percent, Bechtel has no liability for additional 3

costs."

l 1

4 My question is, are you aware that from time to time, j

i 5

there are discussions between Bechtel and Consumers as to who is

- e f

n n

6l liable for som( af the construction work done at Midland?

I

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7 MR. FARNELL:

I'd note for the record that you just read I

.n 5

8 from Afifi Deposition Exhibit 4.

n d

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Can you repeat the question, please?

i 4

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10 !

(Record read)

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l1 MR. FARNELL:

Can you give a time frame?

i d

12 l MR. PATON:

In the last five years.

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A I've heard that such discussions do exist.

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14 3Y MR. PATON:

C 15 l Q

Have you heard such discussions exist with regard to the w

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T 16 l plant fill at Midland?

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g 17 MR. FARNELL:

Such discussions -- you're talking about x=

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18 : sand, and now you're talking acout scmething different?

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I 19 I MR. PATON:

Oh, come on.

The question was whether from I

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20 i time to time there are discussions between Bechtel and Consumers i

l 21 j Power as to who is liable for work at the Midland site, and I then 22 i asked him were there such discussions with respect to plant fill.

l 23,

MR. FARNELL:

As to who is liable for the plant fill?

24 In other words, there's no context to it.

o 25 MR. PATON:

There was until you --

t i

i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

I

- l

i 181

'3 1

3Y MR.'PATON:

i

'2l Q

I will read the sentence again from Deposition Exhibit 4.

t 3

"Therefere we do not accept the argument that because thei 4

recent borings showed natural sands which had relatives density l

s 5

greater than 75 percent, Bechtel has no liability for additional 2+g 6

costs."

R l

1 7l Do you understand what that means?

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A Yes, I understand what the sentence means.

4 9

E, Q

What does it mean?

10 A

I believe the sentence means that C=nsumers Power Company E

11 believe that Bechtel should pay for the borings, for the cost that 3

a E

12 lwas necessary to conduct evaluations.

E I

5 l3 i

Q All right.

Have you ever heard of any discussions be-

=

E I4 tween Consumers Power and Bechtel relating to who will pay for the w

'=j 15 cost of the remedial action at the Midland site, and I mean

=

j j

16 i remedial actions with respect. to the soil settlement problem?

i I

h I7 MR. FARNELL:

I'm going to let him answer this question,

=

~

I8 'but I don't think this is relevant to the scope of the hearing.

I.

19 A

I've heard it mentioned, but I'm not sure 6f the source g

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i 20 'cf the information.

2I Q

What did you hear mentioned?

j i

l 22 '

A I don't recall who mentioned it specifically, but I've 23! heard it mentioned that Consumers -- that Bechtel may end up having 24l to pay for the remedial work, but I don't recall exactly who said i

25l i or whether this information was speculation or fact.

i l

I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

l

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182 i

4 1

Q Have you heard whether Consumers plans to sue Bechtel or 2

Bechtel plans to sue Consumers with respect to this matter?

I 3

MR. FARNELL:

I'm instructing him not to answer that 4l question on the ground of attorney-client priviledge.

g 5

SY MR. PATON:

E i

j 6i Q

Do vou know if there is any attempt being made to arbi-7l R

j trate any differeces that may exist between Bechtel and consumers s

i j

8! with respect to the soil settlement problem?

d 9

A No, sir.

i=

i y

10 -

Q Have you heard any figures as to the total cost of the z

=

j 11 l remedial action because of the soil settlement problem?

E i

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12 {

A Would pu repeat the question?

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13 !

(Record read)

=

5 14'l m

A Again, I've heard figures, but I don't recall where they M

g 15 l came from precisely.

I heard numbers on the order of 20 million l

=

j 16l dollars.

y 17 i Q

And you believe you heard that on the order of 20

$c z

18 I million dollars; was that the total cost for the remedial actions e

19,for the soil settlement problem at Midland?

g n

20 !

A I can't tell you exactly.

I have heard numbers on that 21! order, and I wouldn't know the contents, the ingredients of these l

22 i numbers or the scope.

That's pure -- that's the only thing I can 23 recall hearing.

24 C

Is there a figure that Bechtel uses to attribute to the 25 ] cost of delay of. the plant,.for example, so many dollars per day?

d 4

i

)

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

l

l 133 5

1, A

I'm not aware of such figures.

I i

2 Q

So many dollars per day for each day of delay?

1 3

A I'm not aware of such figures.

4 Q

Has the plant fill settlement problem affected 3echtel's e

5 willingness to submit information to the NRC?

eN 3

6:

(Discussion off the record) a 7l 2

MR..FARNELL:

What do vou mean?

I need some context Kj 8

with Bechtel's willingness to submit information to the NRC.

Are d

l 9

you talking about this project or other projects?

10,

MR. PATON:

It's my position that if the witness under-3 l

j 11 ! stands the question, the question should be answered unless you a

f 12 instruct him not to answer the question.

If he has difficulty with

=

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13 ) the question, I think he should say so, and I will try to change g

14 ' the question, but I don't think it is appropriate to stop the a

ws 2

15 deposition to answer question from counsel because counsel has i

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j 16 difficulty with the question.

A 17 i MR. FARNELL:

You are flat-out wrong on your statement.

w

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E 18 ! I am going to continue what I am doing, and it is proper.

.t 19 MR. PATON:

Are you instructing the witness not to n

20 ! answer the question?

i 21 MR. FARNELL:

No, it is unintelligible.

22 !

MR. PATON:

If the witness tells me it is unintelligible, i

23 ' I will try and rephrace the question.

24 A

would you please repeat the question?

25 3Y MR. PATCN:

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

i

l 134 l

l 6

1 i Q

Do you understand the question?

I 2

A I don't understand the scope of the question, no.

I 3 \\.

0 You don't understand the scope?

i s

4 4

A I would like clarification on the cuestion.

I i

5l Q

You don't understand the cuestion generally?

I e

n 1

i N

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3 6 !

I'll ask another question.

a R

R 7!

A Okay, go ahead.

1

-n 3

8 I Q

Is Bechtel willing to provide information to the NRC in I

=

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l d

9' its review of the Midland facility?

i 10 l A

To my knowledge, Sechtel is providing information to the z

l 3"

11 ' NRC in review of the Midland f acility.

1 I

i 12 i Q

Whv do vou do that?

z_

1 5

13 j A

Secause of all the responses to the questions that have

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14 t heen prepared and all of the data.

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You naean you do that because we ask questions?

R t

1 16 !

A This question really cortends to Sechtel as a whole, and u

N i

17 l it's hard to say.

I would not know the answer to that.

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18 '

Q Are you willing to provide information to the NRC in its C

19 i review of the Midland facility?

I X

l n

20 !

A I am willing to provide information.

i 21!

Q Do you have any instructions with rescect to vour I

22 l providing infornation to the NRC in its review of the Midland l

l 23 '. facility?

j 24 -

A Yes, I received the instructions of what to provide from I i.

1 25 :the project or the task group leader connected with the job.

f i

i i

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

l l

1 I

185 I

7 i

Q Dr. Afifi, I show you a document that I will mark as 2' NRC Exhibit No. 5, 10-30-90 ( Afifi), and ask you if you have ever 3 iseen that document before?

I 4

(Discussion off the record) l i

g 5

3Y ".R. PATON:

nN 6

Q I show you a document that I have marked NRC Deposition e

t o

E I

E 7l Exhibit No. 5, 10-30-80 (Afifi), which consists of a cover letter I

8l dated August 4, 1980, two pages long and signed by Mr. Schwencer of M

J I

E.

9{ the NRC with an attachment dated July 7, 1980; subject, Inter s

1 10 l Agency Agreement No. NRC-03-79-167, Task No. 1, Midland Plant, E

5 11 ' Units 1 and 2; sub-Task No. I letter report, that attachment being i l

5 1

d 12 l 16 pages long, and ask you if you have ever seen NRC Exhibit No. 5 z=

E 13 before?

=

E 14 A

Yes, sir, I have.

W l

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15 j Q

Have you read it before?

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I 16 l A

I read certain cortions of it.

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mi i

j 17,

O I direct your attention to page 3 of the attachment a

E E

18 j which is the portion on the letterhead of the Corps of Engineers, i

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j 19 'specifically to the paragraph about seven lines from the top of l

e 1

20 lpage 3 that reads (2) Bearing Capacity, and ask you to read that 21 - four-line paragraph.

i.

I 22f A

Yes, sir, I read that.

i i

23]

Q Do you know whether Censumers or Bechtel have performed j

24]1 the bearing capacity computations that are referred to in that j

25 l paragraph?

i t

a ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

I i

I 136

{

1 i

i 1

8 1)

MR. FARNELL:

By this, I take it you mean after -- this

~l 2l request asks for, I believe, new bearing capacity computations.

I I

3l Are you asking whether the Bechtel or Consumers has sent l W

4l bearing capacity _ computations in response to this request?

I 5!

(Discussion off the record) 1

~

e I

l n

6l SY MR. PATON:

~

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t 2

7l Q

Dr. Afifi, within that four-line paragraph, do you see n

3 8 !the three words, " bearing cacacity comcutations"?

n i

d i

t t

9i A

Yes, sir.

4 l

2 1

10l Q

Do you know whether Bechtel or Consumers Power has ever 2

i

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j 11 made such bearing capacity computations?

3 I,

j-12 l A

Yes.

=

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13{

Q Who made them?

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14 ;l m

A The computations have been made by the Soils Group.

9 j

3 j

15 0

Who, specifically?

y 16 l A

I believe the most recent computation was made by Mr.

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i 17 ! Givens, G-i-v-e-n-s.

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i 18 I Q

Do you know when those computations were made, 3

p i

r 19 ! approximate.ly?

gg 20 i A

They have been prepared as part of the response to i

21 !, Question 39.

a p

22 l Q

Do you intend to provide that information to the NRC?

l l

23 A

Yes, sir.

l 1

24 Q

Dr. Arifi, did you state that you had read portions of i

i I

25 J'this 16 page document from the Corps of Engineers?

]4 t

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

l 187 I

i i

i i

I t

9 1 l A

Yes.

i j

2l Q

And did you read the portions applicable to your cwn i

?

3l l

responsibilities?

l I

4 A

Those are the ones I read in more detail, yes.

l g

5j Q

Do you recall within the portions that you stated that e

i l

4 i

i 2

6 you read in more detail, are there any requests for information in i

l

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-n 8l intend to provide?

d l

s 9<

i MR. PATON:

Off the record.

2 i

10 l (Discussion off the record) z

=

11 i 4

MR. FARNELL:

We don't have on the record what portions 3

y 12 he read, and the question is misleading and bad as to form, among

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g i

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I4 l MR. PATON:

All right, if you have instructed him net to

.i j

15 j answer, all I'm saying is either the witness can answer the

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I6 l question or he can't.

If he can't, that's fine.

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17 '

i 2

MR. FARNELL:

We're not even cettine that far.

I'm i

s i

i 3

I w

I i

18 f

instructing-him not to answer.

It's misleadtng, anc I am willing i

c j

19 i i

to go; item by item, but not like that.

3 a

20l MR. PATON:

All right.

IIl BY MR. PATON:

22 l Q

Dr. Afifi, will you tell me, starting on page 1, which 23 ! sections you read more carefully because you felt it was within 4

'4 -;your scope of' responsibility?

A I believe I read the first two pages -- let's see.

There!

15 t

s i

l l

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

i i

i

l 188 10 1! are different degrees, really, how hard I read each part, but I i

e l

2' read the first page and the second and the third.

Evenwithineachj i

3 Ipage, there are certain areas that are not my resconsibilitv, and l

1 4I I can't identify them -- there are different pages, and I can tell !

5 l you that I read 4, 5, portions of 4 and 5 are not my entire e

n" i

6 Lresconsibiliev.

I read number 7.

1

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R 7 lI Q

You didn't read number 6?

nj 8

A I read 6, portions of 6.

I read the entire page 6, but I believe I stated that portians are not within =y area of responsi-l d

l 9l 10 bility.

I read 7 and certain portions of 7 are not within my area z

i I

11,l of resc. onsibilitv..

I believe 8 and 9 are not within

=v. area of

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I g.

12 ' responsibility.

E i

13 !

Q You have eliminated 8 and 9, pages 8 and 9; is that

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15 A

I believe that those portions, to the best I can recall a

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16 at this sement, they are not within my area of responsibility.

i s

d 17 - Portion F of page 10, I read.

Then the rest of page 10 and the top a

5 18 l of page 11, I read.

I I

19 !

The Question 47 which covers pages 11, 12 and 13 and the n

20 top of 14, I recall reading it sometime ago, but it's not within t

21j my area of responsibility.

I read the portion en page 14 and the i

22 ' top of page 15.

i i

23 The Question termed No. 48 on page 15 and 16, I believe i

I 24 l I read, but it's not within my area of responsibility.

When I say i i,

25 lit's not within my area of responsibility, I might provide certain l i

4 3

N ii ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

i 189 I

11 1 ' input at certain times, but it's not originated by my people.

j l

2!

Q Dr. Afifi, on page 3 near the middle of the large para-3 graph that follows (1), about two-thirds of the way down, you see l

4{ a se:'tence that begins on-the right-hand side, "To verify the e

cre load test..."?

nM s

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6-A Yes.

e 7'

O All right, continuing with that sentence, it says on the M

i 8

next line, " compute settlements based on test results on samples a

n 3

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frem new borings which we have requested in a' separate memo and i

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c. resent results."

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11 !

First, is that subject within your area of responsibility?

1 is d

12 A

Yes, sir.

z=

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And do you know whether the settlements requested tnere E

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14 l are being prepared?

t:

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E 15 i A

Would you repeat the question?

l

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i l'

j 16 Q

With respect to the words " compute settlements," do you e

l i

17 i know whether those settlement computations are being prepared?

a i

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18 A

No, sir, they are not being prepared.

=

3 19 i Q

Do you know why they are not being prepared?

n l

20 l A

Yes, sir, I do.

1 21 ;

Q Why?

l 22 !

A Secause the Applicant's position paper has been presented',

i 23 ! stated, that in the opinion of the Applicant, there will be no i

l 1

24 l boring involved for that purpose.

l l

25j Q

Let me ask you, by that position paper, are you referring {

a I

i i

ALDERSON REPORTING COMP ANY. INC.

I

l I

190 4

12 1 Yto a document dated September 14, 1980?

l 2

A That's about the richt time.

I I

I 3

Q Dr. AFifi, I just want to show you Consumers Power I,

4I Exhibit No. 3, Heller Deposition on October 9.

There is a dccumenti I

l i

5 here dated September 14, 1980.

i e

H l

3 6:

Can you tell by looking, is that the document you were a

2 7

referring to?

I 8

A Yes, sir, n

s z,

9l Q

And your shorthand title for that is a position paper?

Oh 10 !

A Yes, that's it.

E

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j 11l Q

To your knowledge, has there been any recent discussions 3

I f

12 ; concerning Consumers' position with respect to this request here

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13 ! to compute settlements to verify the pre load test settlement

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14 j conditions, compute settlements based on test results, on samples-b l

=g 15 : from new borings which we have requested in a separate memo and e

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17 i

.MR. FARNELL:

Discussion with who?

2=

l 18 i MR. P ATON :

Discussion with anyone.

=

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[

19 A

I don't recall any recent discussions.

l a

20.f Q

When you say, position, you mean Consumers Power's I

i l

i i

21 ! sosition?

i i

i i

22 '

A I meant the -- I was referring to the document, yes.

j i

(

23 '

Q I'll show you the document again, if you want to, but 24 l vas that document prepared by Consur.ers Pcwer?

i A

That document was prepared by Bechtel with some input 25 li 1

i I

1 a

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.

l

l 191 4

t f.

13 1, from Consumers Power.

I 1

2 Q

And is the essense or the summari:ing the position, is i

3 I it that there is no need for new borings?

I 4

A Yes, we have discussec that previously with the Staff, e.

5 Dr. Peck, and I have participated in these discussions.

That's i,

nN i

8 61 how we feel from an engineering. standpoint.

e i

g

[

7 Q

Can you tell me whether that was sechtel's decision or N

, Consumer Power's decision?

8 8l i

4 5

9 A

With aspect to the subject of settlement, I personally i.

10 l recommended strongly that is not the way to go, and that's all I z

5 11 ' can tall you.

The decision ultimately is the client's decision.

1 3

I i.

12 l Q

You said you recommended strongly.

Can you tell me why t

E l

j 13 l you said, strongly?

j 14l A

Because I believe that the full scale measurement that I

i 15 l wemadeontheDieselGeneratorBuildinecrevidedsufficientbasisl w

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17 ' to settlement.

I believe this is reliable and gives us the answers g'

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Q The need for additional borings -- strike that.

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20 !

There is no clan to have a Surcharge Program at the 1

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1 l

=

1 l

21 l Auxiliary Building, is there?

i I

22 l A

No, sir.

i 23 '

Q Do you plan to take new borings in response to request I

i 24 ] from the Corps cf Engineers with regard to the remedies at the I

l 25 : Auxiliary Building?

-l 1

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

l 192 I

l 14 1 -

MR. FARNELL:

Would you repeat that, please?

1 i

2i (Record read) l 34 A

I don't recall that the remedy, that the Corps of l

l 4< Engineers requested settlement evaluation for the Auxiliary I

I e

5, 3uilding, with respect to fill.

e a

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3 61 SY MR. PATON:

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2 0

You have been requested to take additional borings by

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9i at the Aux Building; is that correct?

z m

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Yes, sir.

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Q And did you have a recommendation with respect to those

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12 borings?

z:

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Mv recollection is that the request was in relation to

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Both bearing capacity and settlement --

a-l i

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So what's the question?

I d

17 Q

Do you you have a recommendation as to whether or not E

5 18 l those additional borings should be taken?

l

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19 l A

Where?

Are we talking the Auxiliary Building?

5 20 l

Q Yes.

l l

21 A

Deep in my heart, I do not feel that these borings were l

l i

i l

22 l necessary.

I have no objection to taking them or not taking them.

I 23[ Deep in my heart, I don't believe they were necessary.

l 24)

Q Can you tell me why?

1 25 ;l A

Because the caissons would be succorted on the natural

)

i 1

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

_ =

i 193 a

i d

15 1 ifill at the site.

There would be excavations made, the opportunityt I

2 to inspect the excavations, there would be lead tests done on j

3 these caissons during construction, and there is opportunity to 4

take samples from the tip of the caissons, if we needed to do that,l e

5 right below the tip of the caissons, and get the information we n

N I

3 6' want.

It would be better information than drilling a hole 25 or e

R l

A.

7 i, 30 feet away from the building.

.n j

8 0

Do load tests provide information on long term settlement?

f U

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No, sir.

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10 Q

Do you believe that if you took these borings requested.

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11 ' by the Staff and the Corps of Engineers, you would be provided any 3

y 12 j information with respect to settlement predictions and bearing E

i s

13 ; capacity at the Auxiliary Building?

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14 lI MR. FARNELL:

Read that back, please.

2 i

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15 '

(Record read) a=

y 16 A

Can you clarify the question, please?

a 3Y MR. PATON:

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Q You_ don't understand the question?

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Yes, if you would clarify it, please.

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20{

Q

n what way?

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21 !

A Are you saying any information at all?

I 22 ;

Q Yes, that's what I want you to say.

i 23 A

Any information whatsoever?

l I

24 Q

Yes, that relates to a settlement prediction.

k a

25 A

Irrespective of whether it's valuable information or not?i i

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s ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

i

p 194 16 1 1 O

You can start there.

That's what I asked you, would you 1

2 jreceive any information --

l 3,

A There will be information obtained from the borings.

1 44 Q

Will that information be of any value in predicting i

I 5, settlement?

i e

1 Q

l t

i 3

6i A

It could be of some value.

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A 7.

O could it be of some value in predicting bearing capacity?

j 8j A

Yes, sir.

i d

2 9

Q Dr. Afifi, are there any requests for information in the

?,

10 document submitted by the Cerps of Engineers dated July 7, from z

1 i

=

i i

j 11 I pages 1 through 16, within your area of responsibility that you do R

I i

0-12 not understand?

z i

3 i

j 13 l MR. FARNELL:

Same objection.

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l 14 ;

(Discussion off the record) m=

1 i,

2 15 !

3Y MR. PATCN:

i i

j 16,

Q I'll say page 1 and he can answer, and then I'll sav i

I i

17 j page 2.

As a matter of fact, starting from page 1 at your attorney ls x

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18 ! request and going through page 16, would you answer for each page?

l i

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19 i MR. FARNELL:

I want better than that.

I want each i

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20 l individual request.

21 MR. PATCN:

Are you instructing him not to answer the i

I 22 ) question?

l 4

23 MR. PARNELL:

The way you have it phrased, yes.

24b MR. PATCN:

ill ri7ht.

4 25 MR. FARNELL:

I am willing to have him answer as to each a

.h Nj ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

I

I 195 L 17 1: individual specific request.

I think it is a compoind question.

l

.I 2

MR. PATON:

That's fine, you have instructed him not to 3

answer, so I don't see the need for --

I I

I t

4 MR. FARNELL:

He's here to answer your questions.

l I

g 5

MR. PATON:

All right, you instructed him not to answer l

R g

6;and I'll ask him another question.

-n b

7 SY MR. PATON:

-nj 8

0 Dr. Afifi, I direct your attention to page 1 of the U

9 Corps report dated July 7,1980.

,z 10 A

Are you referring to page 1, sir, where the letterhead 5=

II exists?

Q3 f

I2 l Q

Yes, sir, the page that has at the top in all caps, I

=

13 '! SU3JEC"':

INTER AGENCY AGREEMENT, et cetera.

5

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Are there, in your opinion, any requests for information e

i 15 on that page?

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4 j

16 {

A Okay, I nave difficulty with pages 1 and 2, in general.

e 1/ '

l N

Q In understanding them?

e i

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18 :

l l

MR. FARNELL:

I think he's indicating there's something i

I9 I

g about,them he didn't understand.

n l

20 l MR. PATON:

I'll ask another question.

21 BY MR. PATON:

22l

.Q Dr. AFifi, would your address page 1 of the Corps docu-I a

4 23 ment dated July 7, and I ask you, do you understand, is there any-i I.

kthing on page 1 that you do not understand?

fJ i

15 MR. FARNELL:

Take it line by line.

i i

i 3

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

1

196 18 1

(Discussion off the record) 2 (Recess taken) 3 BY MR. PATCN:

4l 0

Dr. Afifi, I believe you testified that you had recom-1 g

5 'nended strongly that consumers not provide the Staff with e

M j

6, additional borings that were requested by the Staff and the Corps i

-n R

7 cf Engineers; is that correct?

A I

8l MR. FARNELL:

I don't believe that was correct.

n Ud 9

A I don't believe I said that, no.

zo l

10 i BY MR. PATON:

I z

i

=

+

j 11 Q

Is it correct that you recorr. ended strongly that the 8

1 y

12 borings not be taken; is that what you said?

=

i m

l l

13 i A

No, I didn't say that.

=

=

5 14 0

You referred to a strong recommendation, which you made

=

1 c

15 about 10 minutes ago.

Can you tell me what that strong recommenda-az l

I 16 tion was?

g i

I 17 A

I believe I was referring to the method of predicting 5

l r

18 : settlement, "tbi be based on the full scale measurements.

=

=

I i

19 ; settlement prediction is best obtained from full scale measurements) a M

20 ! n my opinion, if that access is available.

i i

1 21!

Q Do you know whether Dr. Peck concurred. in that l

4

.f 22 8:eco=mendation?

4 23 '

A I believe Dr. Peck agrees with that.

I 24 l Q

Did you ever hear Dr. Peck made any statement concerning !

I 25 the advisability of taking additional borings,for predicting i

i i

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

I

\\

1 197 I

19 1 2 settlement?

i 2

A I don't recall hearing Dr. Peck talk to me about that.

3 Q

Did you hear him talk to anybcdy about that subject?

4 A

I believe there was a statecent made once that if the 5 ' Staff is concerned about the three feet of fill just below the l

g H

I 2

6 foundation, that may be tried, and the only way to satisfy the e

E 7li Staff along these lines would bi to run a consolidation test to i

n j

8 verify there would not be additional settlement, or something d

E.

9l along these lines.

I

~

10

'j Q

Are there any other state =ents by Dr. Peck that you

=

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5 II i recall he made at any time, with respect to taking additional l

5 3,',

5 borings for the purpose of predicting settlement?

_=

13 I 5

A I don't recall any others,.and I'm not actually sure i

i 1

3 14 '

i I

that the first statement was made by Dr. Peck.

I re= ember in the i

t

=

15 b

l back of my mind it was made as to, was made to me by Walter i

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7 16 Ferris, and I don't recall if that was from Walter Ferris or was i

s i

17 '

s a result of a discussion between 11ter Ferris and Dr. Peck.

l i

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j Q

Have you told us all of the statements that you can recall j9l' hat, to your knowledge, were made by Dr. Peck to anyone con-

-j t

20 ' cerning taking additional borings for the purpose of credictine I

21!

4 settlement?

a 4

1 i

n3 4

Well, with respect to shear strength -- would you A

23 please repeat the question?

1 24j#

Q Have you told us all of the statements that you can i

25 l recall having heard from Dr. Peck concerning his recommendations l

3'

'l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

f

198 20 1 lfor taking additional borings for the purpose of predicting i

2 tsettlement?

l 3 :I MR, FAanz;;:

I don't think it was his recom=endation I

4, concern ng -~

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BY MR. PATON:

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Q Recommendation for or against taking the borings for the E

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g 7' purpose of determining --

1

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My understanding is that Dr. Peck is not in favor of l

J i

9' predicting settlements from borings.

He, himself, is not in faverd u

10 Q

Is that statement applicable to the plant fill at z=

il j Midland, or is that generally his position?

i a

i N

I2 A

I thought I understood your question, you were referring:

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Okay, I'll accept your answer with that understanding.

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II l Do you recall Dr. Peck ever making any statements about

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16, the desirabiliev. of takinc. additional borine.s for the o.urpose of N

I7 x

, determining bearing capacity?

2 i

j 18l A

I have difficulty with the word " desirability."

i k

I9 '

Q Advisability?

l 4

20l A

I believe one of the times we have discussed that if f

1 21 i the Staff is insisting on the borings for the bearing capacity,

!l i

22 g there would be nothing wrong with doing them, as far as the 23 l bearing capacity is concerned.

+'

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24 4 i

1

(

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-Q Oo you plan to do them for that purpose, for revealing

)

25 4 information about bearing capacity?

l i

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

1

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199 i

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21 1I A

I believe that we have estimates, sufficiently l

l i

i 2i estimated bearing capacity with available information that we have..

Ii 3 lI believe that the additional data that we would get would no l

4j result in any significant alteration in our estimates, but : would O

g 5

have no objections to doing it.

1

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You would have no objections to doing it, but right now R

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you have no plans for doing it; correct?

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That's right.

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Is there any difference between your position and Dr.

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10 l Peck's position concerning the advisability of taking aIC'.cional i

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As far as I know, I don't believe there is a difference a

5 13 : as far as I know..

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5 I4,

Q Co.you know what the standard review plan is?

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15 A

Yes.

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Generally, what is it?

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It's list of, check list of items which are recuired, a

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analysis report.

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1 Q

Does Bechtel use the standard review plan for any l

20 21

purpose?

22 '

A I believe I recall that we used it in the proc 6; Tf 23 preparing the Midland FSAR.

i 24)1 Q

Co you use it to help pu determine what information to 1

25 13 provide.the NRC?

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To the best of =y recollection, this has been done, i

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Q Do you eveh provide the NRC with information in the I

a 3 : absence of a request for that information from the NRC?

4l MR. FARNEI.I. :

Are you talking about the Midland project?

I 5

MR. PATON :

The Midland project.

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A I don't -- I can't recall exactly.

I believe that in t

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9l question, in my area that I can recall, but I can't speak for the 2

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10 i rest.

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Your answer is that youcare speaking for ycurself only; s

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Yes, I want to make you aware that I am speaking from l

5 14 one area only in responding to the soil question.

I do recall i

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H complete the subject that was brought in.

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I8 Q

With respect to the soils issue, I'm not talking about I

g 19 ' this, litigation or these depositions, but with respect to the i

20 ; soils issue in your normal review process, have there been any i

4 21 change, have you received any different instructions on the i

22 amount of information you should provide to the NRC than you had i

23 3 prior to the soils issue?

a 24!

A Well, prior to the soils issue, we were preparing an i

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25,' FSAR, working on an FSAR, and that is a standard review plan for I

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d ALDERSON RE.mORTING COMP ANY. INC.

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e 23 1 sthe FSAR.

In this particular matter, to the best of my knowledge, a

2 elwe are working with 50-54 F and I am not -- I am ' unde.- the system t

i i

3l where we respond to all of the questions and provide all of the i

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4 l factual information.

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Q In the last four years, and I am excluding from my i

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j 6 !, question any instructions you may hava received in connection i

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7 with the deposition today, I'm excluding that, have you received j

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8i any instructions that bear on providing the NRC infornation?

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9' MR. FARNELL:

Witn respect to Midland?

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10 MR. PATON:

With respect to Midland.

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A Sure, I have received instructions.

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Q Oan you tell us what the instructions were ?

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I cannot possibly recall all of the instructions, but

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mformation that has been included in the 50-54 ? Volumes.

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Q All right, again, I'm not asking you about any instruc-n a

20 tionthatyoumaycemaynothavereceivedinconnectionwiththisl 21!

deposition.

Have you ever received an instruction in the last four 22 23 years with respect to Midland and with respect to the soils 1

24 l problem to refrain or to not provide certain information to the i

)

25 ( NRC?

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1 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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I have been instructed to respond to the questions 24 1

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i 2 ifully and to the best of my knowledge.

f 3i Q

And you have not received any change in that instruction,

4 with respect to the soils issue in the Midl.tnd case in the last I.

3 5 ! four years?

e N

j 6l A

Can I speak with my counsel?

R 2

7' Q

Surelv.

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8 (Discussion off the record) d i

9i A

There has been a change, and that is the difference z'

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10 ' between working in an FSAR system and the 50-54 F system.

These r

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In my working with the FSAR, updating l 3

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12 FSAR constantiv is one matter, and the 50-54 F agreement that E

I 13, understand we are working on, that is a different =atter.

I a

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14 '

BY MR. pATON:

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Q Okay, keeping the FSAR up to date calls for you to 2

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16 l volunteer information; is that correct?

t M

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Calls for you to comply with the standard review plan d

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18. and the section 1.70 step by step and to respond to every single I

19 l step on those.

n an l

20 l Q

And in responding to the 50-54 F requests, do you re-i 1

21l spend to the question -- you do not additionally volunteer any I l 9

22 l information; is that correct?

d l

23 A

I respond to the question in full, and we have, I 24 ;

believe, provided a factual data.

1 Q

In the 50-54 F process, do you feel that there is a 25 1

4 l

,1 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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203 l

25 1,,need to freely submit geotechnical information to the NRC in a manner similar to the manner in which you respond to the standard 2lI 3 I review plan?

4 A

I am not familiar with the rules of the 50-54 F myself.

i l

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Q By 50-54 F, I'm just referring --

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Are you asking me to change the 50-54 F method of n

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MR. PATCN:

He understands very well.

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10 l BY MR. PATON-z i

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Q Dr. Afifi, I show you what I previously marked as NRC E

11 '

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12 I Deposition Exhibit 2.

It is a document dated August 3, 1979.

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j 13 l The subject is Problem Alert, Incorrectly Placed Back Fill.

The i

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3 14 l document has a number on it, S3 301598 through SB 301600.

The

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15 last page should probably be numbered 601.

Ihe last page I have

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16 has no number cn it, but it was substituted because the original s

y 17 ' last page could not be read.

Let me ask you to icok at that t

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18 ; docu=ent.

i 19 l You can look at it again, Doctor, but let me ask you, M

i 20 i have you ever seen this before?

i 21 A

I believe I saw either this one or something similar to k

22)it.

It's possible that it's *h4.s one because it has my initials i

23 on it.

24 j Q

Do you know wha' 4~

is?

.]

25 '

A Yes.

i i

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY INC.

i

1 204 i

l i

26 1:

O What is it?

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2l A

It's a document that I understand is supposed to be i

I 3

sent to Bechtel to alert from recurrence of si*:llar problem as 4l what happened in Midland.

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6 problems that occurmed at Midland?

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I did not prepare the document.

I may have had some u

8l input into reviewing the initial draft of it.

I don't believe g

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9i the document is intended to sum =arize the problem at Midland, but !

t o

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10 my understand, the document is intended to provide the lessons as z

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3 II I to what may have had to be learned from the experience at Midland.'

a 12,

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Q You don't have any trouble applying the words, lessons

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. 5 13!' learned to the document, things that Bechtel doesn't wish to have

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m i happen again?

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15 l (Discussion off the record).

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(Record read) l i

I 17 2

MR. PATON:

I'll strike the question.

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I believe I intended to state ?he Midland experience.

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3Y MR. PATCN:

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20 'i i

Q All right, you did not view that as a summary of the i

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21 i i

L problems that were encountered at the Midland site?

3 22 A

I don't believe it is.

23 '

1 Q

But you do think it is a check list of items that j

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24 ;. Sechtel doesn't want to have receated at other site 0?

,1 1,

25 1 i

i MR. FARNELL:

Oon't answer.

l 4

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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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.l 205 I

i i

t (Discussion off the record) 27 1 5 l

4 2l BY MR. PATON:

3i O

Dr. Afifi, is it correct that after the settlement i

)

4 ' croblem was discovered, Bechtel took a series of borings and i

5 ! conducted laboratory te'sts which included consolidation testing?

e i

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A Are you referrine. to the Diesel Generator Building 3a

=n a

g 5

7 problem?

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Yes.

l c

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Yes, sir.

c I

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10 l Q

With settlement computations and predictions made based !

z

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11 I en those laboratory test results?

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3 4

1 i

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A I don't recall that anv were made.

u 1

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Q Do you know why thev. were not made?

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A I believe I responded to that question yesterday once.

1 i

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15 l Q

You gave a lot of answers yesterday, and I'm not sure

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16 ' I can sort out what answer you're referring to.

s I

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A The very initial intant of the test was to diagnose the e

i, 1

E 18 i problem and cerhaps if it was possible, to predict settlement and i

i 19 '

m s

1 be able to get reasonable settlements without any remedial action.

5 i

i 20 ] That would b 3 cne action to take.

That was the immediate thought 21 ' that was, I believe, that occurred to me is to investigate and see; I

4 22 the quality of the fill as it exists, but it became apparent that I 23 a fix is required, and the full surcharge method provided a 24 superior method for consolidating the fill, the. land fill together;.

s i

25 j For that reason, this data lost its meaning, in my opinion.

l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

i 1

I 206 s

i I

s 4

28 15 Q

Can you answer e.y question, yes or no, "ere settlement i

2 l ccmputations and predictions made bas ed en these laboratory test j

3 lresults?

i i

4.

MR. FARNELL:

I think he answered.

i 1

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5; A

I thought I said, I don't know.

W l

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BY MR. PATON:

7 g

You don't remember?

l t

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I don't' remember.

l d

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9I Q

You said it became apparent that a fix was required.

{

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i 10 i Almost immediately it became apparent that a fix was required?

l z

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A Almost immediately?

I didn't use the words, al= cst 3

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12 ! i=1 ;ciately.

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You said that there was an 1::itial --

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In initial reaction was to take the berings and take the

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.5 4 regular types of tests everybody goes cut and runs on site where

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16, scil conditions are unknown.

Later, our thought developed rather a

i 17 N

racidiv into the surcharge program and there was no reason not to !

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18 l proceed with the tests.

r 8

i 3

I9 (

Q Ycu went out and tock a series of borings and you

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20li conducted laboratory tests, but then you stopped just short.

You i l

2I h stepped short of making the computations; is that correct?

4 a

1 22j MR. FARNELL:

I don't think he took the tests to make e

3 i

23 j eenselidation, to make settlement with.

i 2#

A Not necessarily.

y1 BY MR. PATON:

J i

4 i

i ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

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1 207 1l*

O Well, tell me the purpose of taking the series of 2

borings that you took?

3, A

It was to evaluate the conditions of the fill.

4 Q

And you conducted laboratory tests?

s 5

A Yes.

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Q And those included consolidation tests?

o i

.u 6

7 A

They did.

u g

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Q How much ef foru would have required -- strike that.

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9l Dr. Afifi, do you know who within Bechtel would know I:'j to ; whether or not any settlement computations and predictions were l

i i

II made based on the laboratorv tests?

3 12 '

E_

A I can check for ou.

It would not be a croblem.

Cver- !

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I 13 i 5

5 nicht I can check it out.

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Q Would you be willing, with the consent of your lawyer,

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15 l to provide that information tomorr w if he agrees to it?

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f 16 7 11 check and see.

i 2

17 '

MR. FARNELL:

If you can check, fine.

=

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3Y MR. PATON:

i 19 i i

i

.O If these computations had been made, where wculd they n

v i

20i be located?

l 21 :

A They would be in our computations files.

1 i

3 I

22 4e Q

How long would it take a person who is qualified to f'

i 23 makesettlementcomputationsandpredictions,to.havemadesettle-j 24 3d ment computations and predictions having in his possession the f

4 I

25lt results of the laboratory tests?

l 1,

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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

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l 208 l

1 i

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MR. FARNELL:

Is this in relation to a specific 2l building or plan?

l, 3i MR. PATON:

The Diesel Generator Building.

i 44 MR. FARNELL:

What laboratory tests are we talking about?

5l MR. PATON:

The lab tests you just referred to.

g R

j 6

A The process includes evaluating the data very closely R

t i

7, and selecting the parameters and conducting the tests.

It's not i

l i

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8l n

a lot of work.

t i

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9I SY MR. PATON:

10 0

Would it take less than a day?

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A Not in the case of the Diesel Generator Building.

It j

4 s

i a

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12 l would take less than a day in another si:uation, but not in the

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case of the Oiesel Generator Building.

5 34 '

2 In order for me to come up with something reasonable, I e

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I*fhavetoputsomebodyfortwoweeks,lookatitverycarefully, j

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j 16 l evaluate the data, to see the availability of the soil properties,I

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It's t:

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w i

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So your estimate today is that to make the settlement n

i 20l computations and predictions with respect to the Diesel Generator i i

i I

2I [ Building, would have take n approximately two weeks?

22 ;

A A careful evaluation.

A crude evaluation would take 1

23 i

4 less than a day.

I 24 Q

Oid you learn anything from the laboratory test results 1

25 that indicated to you, that gave you any reason that you should 3

j

. l 4

d ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

I l

209 i

t 4

i 1 ? not make the settlement computations?

i 2{

MR. FARNELL:

I think he said he didn't recall whether i

3 j

they made them or not.

4f MR. PATCN:

Okay, that's not the answer to my question. I i

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5; MR. FARNELL:

Would you read that back, pisase.

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R j

6 ';

(Record read)

R 2

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A I don't believe so.

I 8j c

A l

3Y MR. PATON:

l t

d I

i 9l Q

Oo you know who -- if a decision was made not to make z

10 lj settlement ecmputations and predictions, is that within the scope o

i 5

l

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11j of your respeensibility at that time?

I n

I 5-I2 I A

Yes.

1 j

13 !

O Is that the type of thing that you would have discussed }

=

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.g 14 l with anybody higher than you in the organization, or is that a i

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1

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I6 l A

I would say it's a decision that I would make.

I 17 '

y Q

Is there, as opposed to the careful analysis you j

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18 '

3 described, is there a crude estimate of settlement computations i

"g 19 '!

that.could be made in approximately a half a day?

l 20 !

MR. FARNELL:

believe he said less than a day -- okav.

i i

21 1 I

BY MR. PATON :

i 22I' Q

s there such a thing?

l k

i 23 '

A I need to Pecw what settlement computations you are i

t i

24 { talking about now.

I J

l 25.j Q

An estimate of the settlement at he Diesel Generator k

3 3

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

I

~

I 210 1 ' Building would have under the surcharge?

1 l

2i A

That would be --

that can be made crudely and one would, d

1 3$ be able to arrange, a rather crude range.

P i

4i Q

Do you know whether any crude estimate was made?

f g

5 A

I recall that by comparing the lab data, a range, the I

n j

6 range and the actual complicibility range, you would back figure m

t s

a 7i from the tests from the full scale measurement, that the number i

I j

8l would be, it would be higher, could be higher, but that accounts d

9l for the fact that most, a lot of the samples were on the soft side ~,

z h

10 !

so that makes me return again to the connection about the careful z_

=

i g

11 analysis of the data that would be required in case one wants to a

i i

12 l make an estimate to verv. carefully look at it.

It's not a big

-=

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problem.

1 x

5 14 <'

Q Okay, I'm not sure I understand your answer to my

+

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2 15 l cuestion about the crude estimate.

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j j 16 l Was a crude estimate made?

j m

17 !

A There is a crude estimate made of the range of the x

5 I

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18 !

complicibility parameters.

I cannot recite 1: fer you at the 2 moment, but I can get it for you.

l' s

19 5

a 20l 0

All right, would you do that?

i I

21l A

Yes.

t, 22 '

Q Was the crude estimate you just referred to of a 23 :} compressibility index?

s 24j A

Yes, sir.

i 25)

Q Did vou make any crude estimate of settlement?

i I

f' h

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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l I

L 1 4 A

No, I stated before, I don't recall if that was done or '

i l

2; not.

l 3

MR. FARNELL:

Cff the record.

I i

4i (Discussion of f the record) 4 l

5l MR. PATON:

The request for the ccmpressibility index, i

3 e

i n

j j

6 we do not need it overnight.

  • f you are willing to give it to 1

"2 7 l us, wculd v.ou just indicate seme reasonable time that vcu can i

i M

j 3

8' succiv it to us?

n J

t I

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MR. FARNELL:

We'll provide it within two weeks.

i:h 10 I BY MR. PATCN:

E=

E 11 i Q

Were six borings made near the Diesel Generator Building i

3

'y 12 l after remeval of the surcharge for shear wave -relocity measurements-

=

g 13 '

A Can you explain what ycu mean by, near?

=

2 l

i 5

14 (Discussion off the record)

_t 2

15 i BY MR. PATON:

l 5

i j

16 Q

All right, let me amend the question, s

I y

17 Were six borings made -- Dr. Afifi, I read to you f cm e

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I a

18.

l ge 1 of Censumers'Pcwer Exhibit No.

3, Heller Deposition, i

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=

19,

October 9, 1980.

g 5

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20 <

"After removal of the surcharge, six additional borings 21f were made to ccnduct in-situ shear wave velocity measurements,'

I

'lI 22 h and I hand you that document if you want to read that statement.

s I

23l A

Yes.

lH 24 0

Is that a true statement?

l 25j A

Yes, sir.

?

4 3

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

1

212 I

i 1 h Q

Did you cempare the blew counts obtained from berings f

i 1

2l before and af ter surcharging the Diesel Generator Building?

i 3l MR. FARNELL:

Would you read that back?

4 l;.

(Record Raad.)

l

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g MR. PATON:

Off the record.

4 l

j 6j (Discussion off the record)

R 7<

BY MR. PATCN:

I N

I j

8l Q

Let me read it again.

Did you compare the bicw counts dn 9

obtained from borings before and after surcharging the Diesel z,

g 10 '

Generator Building?

z=

11 !

A Yes, sir.

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j 12 ;

O Do you knew if that comparison has been p Ovided to the

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13 NRC?

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14 !

A No.

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15 Q

Do you plan to provide that information to the NRC?

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16j gg, yAang;L:

You asked him, did he know, and he said, j

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no, he didn't knew.

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18 MR. PATON:

I asked him, has he provided it, and I guess i

e 19 a

he said he didn't know.

New I asked him, does he plan to provide' M

20 1 4

21h MR. FARNELL:

It already =sy be provided, he doesn't l

1 22 '

know.

23 MR. PATON:

Okay, if he's already provided it, maybe he 24 ! doesn't plan to provide it.

l 1

25 i MR. FARNELL:

Can you ask the question again?

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ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

I

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l 213 1.

3Y MR. PATON:

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To repeat my question, I have to back up ancther 3

question.

I ask you, did you compare the bicw counts obtained j

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.4; frem borings before and after surcharging the Diesel Generator 5l Building: did you answer, yes?

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A Yes, sir.

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A 7i 0

Have you provided that information to the NRC?

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A I have not.

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Oc you plan to provide that information to the NRC?,

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I have no immediate plans for that.

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Q Has the NRC, to your knowledge, asked you fer that j

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No.

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Do you consider that information to be significant?

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To what?

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MR. PATON:

I'm asking him.

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It's too general.

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SY MR. PATON.

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21 A

I don't believe the information is very significant.

22 !

MR. PATON:

Mr. Tarnell, would you be willing to have

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23 Mr. Afifi provide us the information he has just described on the 24 comparisen of blew counts obtained frem borings before and after 25 the surcharce?

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hj ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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MR. FARNELL:

We'll provide you with that c0= arisen f

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i 2I you asked for, but we would like you, at the end of this deposi- !

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i 3i tion when the transcript =cres in, to submit to us a list of what, 1

i 4I vou had requested so that we can have it all in one place, and I

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same treatment frem vour witnesses as to providing documents thatI e

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7 are asked for'durina. de=.ositions.

"3 8l MR. PATON:

Well, I think, rather than, you knew, i

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9i postpone that problem and wait until the deposition comes in --

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We'll work on it now, but I want something z

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so that it will be fairly i=moutalized in one clace.

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Well, let's do it right now.

I don't want !

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to :o home and wait for that to ccme in and then vou read the

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transcript and go through all of that i

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If you want a list, put it on the record t_

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richt new.

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17 MR. FARNELL:

All richt.

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Number 1 is the matter we have just dis-i e

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cussed, and that's in the transcript right at this point.

Do ycu n

4 20 :

want me to state what that is?

21,

MR. FARNELL:

Yes.

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22 1 MR. PITON:

All right, blow count ecmparison.

The i

23 second is, index of construct _en and design drawings.

Certainly, '

a 24 #l if I have not

  • escribed it accurately, as far as you're cencerned,:

25 please correct the record.

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

I 215

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i 1f (Discussion off the record) l 2 I MR. PATON:

The Staff has requested that Censumers and/ l l

i i

3l or Sechtel =rovide several items, and the parties new wish to place i

i I

4: on the record what those items are.

Then Mr. Farnell will respond, i

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with their reply to our request.

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6; The first item is a ecmparison of bicw counts cbtained I

7 f cm borings before and after surcharging the Diesel Generater t

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g 84 Building.

d 2

9l (Discussion off the record) l

,n 4,

10 !

MR. PATON:

The second item is an index of construction E

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f 12 ) The third item is an index of computations made by Geotechnical 5

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13 Services.

The fourth item is to advise us whether settlement

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14 j cceputatiens and predictions were made after a series of berines

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16 laboratory tests were conducted.

The last item is a list of

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17 ccmpressibility indexes.

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18 MR. FARNELL:

With respect to item four, we understand i

l I9 s

this.to be, to relate to the Diesel Generator Building and prior n

f 20 to position of the surcharge on the Diesel Generatcr Building.

4 2I We'll provide the information set forth by Mr. Paton in 22 I items one through five to the extent that it exists and is dis-i 23 coverable.

24)j i

l MR. PATON:

Off the record.

I I

l 3

l 25I (Discussion off the record) i i

l 4

l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

8 I

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216 i

11 MR. FARNELL:

We will either provide you with the a

i information or the answer that it is not available within two i

3 weeks.

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BY MR. PATCN:

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With respect to the six borings that we have been nN i

3 6,: discussing in connection with the Diesel Generator Buildi.95, were o

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7 these continuous standard penetration tests or intermittent?

s 8

A I believe they were intermittent.

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If they were -- all right.

?

10 Do you know the spacing?

_I II A

I don't recall the spacing.

These borings have been a

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I2 l provided to the NRC.

Logs of these borings have been provided to l

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5

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O Considering the use of intermittent standard penetration a

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15 tests, can you determine soil shear strength and compressibility

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d 16 characteristics of the soils between the sampled intervals?

m 17

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Would you read that back, please.

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18 (Record read.)

S,.

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MR. FARNELL:

The question is compound.

It deals with 20 either soil shear strength or compressibility characteristics, onei a

2I ' or the other.

I 22 MR. PATCN:

All right, I'll take then

'e at a time.

23 l

SY MR. PATCN:

l 24 '

o oc you want =e to read the question again?

25 i

A Yes.

4 A:

b, J

t ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

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l 217 1,

Q Considering that the standard penetration tests were j

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2l inter =ittent, can you determine soil shear strength of the soil 1

3 between the sampled intervals?

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A on the basis of the collection of the berings =ade, it is 1

5l usual to be able to interpret shear strength behavier based on all e

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6l of the data put together from all of the herings.

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By, from all of the borings, do you mean all six borings?

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A If we are talking about only those six borings, it would d

9 cnly be these six berings.

Y 10 Q

!s the data gathered from those six borings sufficient l

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A These borings were not intended for determination of

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2 15 Q

What was their purpose?

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16 l A

To determine shear wave velocitv.

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Do you know the shear strength and compressibility l

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18 l characteristics of the plant fill under the Diesel Generator

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n 19 i Suilding since a surcharge was removed?

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y 20 MR. FARNELL:

Again, one at a time.

Shear strength and d

2i then compressibility.

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22l BY MR. PATCN-1 23 I Q

De vou knew the shear strength characteristics of the l

4 I

24 l elant fill under the Diesel Generator Building since the surcharge l 4 -

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25 l was removed' i

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1

.1 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

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A Yes.

I 2l 0

What are they?

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A We predicted the friction angle te he 29 degrees and j

I 4i the conservatively, the cohesion intercept to be taken as :ere er l

g greater as reported previously in the September 14 submittal.

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Did the shear strength used in bearing capacity analysis i

7 cc=e frem samples as far away as the bore rated water tank?

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Yes, sir.

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C In recognition of the heterogeneous plant fill, is that

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10 ! acceptable?

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Would you read that back, please.

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12 (Record read)

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Acceptable in what regard, to whcm, for

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14 l. what purpose?

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BY MR. PATON:

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Is it acceptable to use shear strength from as far away a

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. as the bore rated water tank in bearing capaci5y analysis?

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18.

MR. FARNELL:

I have the same --

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3Y MR. PATON:

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20j Q

For the purpose of making your bearing capacity analysisj I

2I[

MR. FARNELL:

I have the same questions, for what, to 22 f whom, for what purpose?

l Il I

23 i J

MR. PATON:

Acceptable for the purpose of making a 1

l 24 ) bearing capacity analysis.

l 9

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i 25j MR. FARNELL:

I don't understand it.

I 4

i s

ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.

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219 l

1 1

A on the basis that the soil material has been used and the:

I 2

clay fill is the same and that is the eccling pond area and that l'

1:

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3i the plastistic characteristics of the sampled tested are similar to. ;

I 4

those found under the Diesel Generator Building and the fact that i

s 5

the calculated safety factors are on the order of six or more, the i i *

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n 6 ', resulting bearine capacity evaluation shculd be censidered satis-R I

7' factory.

sj 8

BY MR. pATCN:

Dr. Afifi, I show you a document entitled, d

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9l a one-page document entitled, Trip Report.

It has at the top, 10 Midland Units 1 and 2, Job 7220-001, dates January 30 to March 24, z

1

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E 11 ; 1973.

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12 The guestion am going to ask you specifically refers t

j 13 i to a sentence in the middle of the second paragraph that begins

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l 14 with the words, "As built drawings."

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15 l Dr. Afifi, did you read the sentence -- the document e

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j 16 that I have just asked you to look at is NRC Exhibit 6, which I i

i 17 have marked and dated October 30, 1980 (Afifi).

I direct your x

=

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18 attention to the sentence which I will now read.

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$.19 l "As built drawings as well as boring legs, daily reports M

20 i and c:her miscellaneous data were transmitted to S. S. Afifi as 21 i they became available."

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x 22 Did you receive these, do you remember whether you 23 received those as built drawings?

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l 24 i A

I don't recall exactly what is meant by, as built l

2 a

1 25 j drawings, in this memorandum.

l' l

j ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

I

I 220 l

l 1

Q The sentence also refers to, daily reports.

Oc you l

I 2

remember whether you received daily reports as indicated in this

,i 3

letter?

I 4

41 A

Normally on this type of assignment, people prepare i

g 5

reports and whatever data they collect, and they are filed in the n

i se a

6 ;i Gectechnical Files.

s i,

7 Q

Is your statement that that is not the type of informa-A

.4 8

,l tion you would specifically remember receiving; is that what you

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10 particularly that you received this information?

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Yes, I may have received it and I gave it to sc=eone a

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If this information:

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5 14 '

MR. PATON:

Mr. Farnell, there's a reference here to a=

i

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I'd like to recuest I

I 16 ai i that if those boring logs are in Mr. Afifi's files, we'd be n

N.

II provided copies of them.

I'm specifically referring to the hering

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f d to in Staff Exhibit 6.

19 l ogs re erre "g

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May I make a -ccmment?

n 20 MR. PATIN:

Yes.

2I !l A

In response to the September 15 report, specifically o

l 22 3 refers to the boring logs, and I have already indicated that the i

S i

I 23 l Applicant will provide the logs in response to the question.

f.

4 24!

SY MR. PATON:

s i

25l Q

Approximately when do you think those logs will be f

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il ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.

I y

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33 u.

t i

provided?

I i

2 A

I do not know the schedule for submitting this upcoming 3

amendment.

4-MR. PATCN:

Based on that information provided by Dr.

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5 Afidi, I'd like to withdraw our recuest.

I e

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MR. FARNELL:

I accept vour recuest.

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s M

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7 -

SY MR. PATCN:

i 8l Q

Dr. Afifi, with reference to staff Exhibit 6, do ycu know:

n l

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9 at the ti=e the borings for the piecometers were drilled, what was i

Ch 10 the level of the cooling pond?

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To the best of =v recollection, that was before the 3

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13 i do not know the crecise level.

l 5

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Q Before the c.umc.ing sta_.ed, what was the level, the x

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15 ' a 7roxi= ate: level?

xx

+

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A Well, there would be no water in the nume.

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d 17 Q

Not at all?

l 5

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A No, but I can check.

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19 l Q

Do you have any concern for future hydrolic fracturing 4

x 5

j 20 4 because of the drilling for the berings fer pie:cmeters?

l t

li MR. FARNELL:

Read that back.

t 22k (Record readsi a

4 23 MR. FAP"%jL:

Are you talking about the past pie::ometer j 24 l drillings that w tre tc.a0?

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a 25 i MR. PATCN:

The answstr, yes.

l i

a d

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ALDERSON REPORTIP4(i COMP ANY, INC.

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1l A

I don't know, sir.

2f Q

Am I correct that you do no: consider that in your area. l l

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A Yes.

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MR. PATON:

Off the record.

l i

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6]j (Discussion off the record) s R

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7l MR. PATON:

Okay, that's the end of today's deposition.

n i

j 8l (Whereupon, at 5:00 p.m.,

the taking of the depositien U

z, 9fadjourneduntilFriday, October 31, 1980 at 9:00 a.m.)

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