ML19321B008
| ML19321B008 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 07/15/1980 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML19321B009 | List: |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8007250021 | |
| Download: ML19321B008 (61) | |
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NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSICN t'
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I In the Mattar of:
BRIEFING ON MID-YEAR REVIEW OF FINANCIAL PLANS AND PROGRAMS
-- PUBLIC MEETING 4
(
l 1
DATE:.
July 15, 1980 PAGZS :
1-58 Washington, D. C.
g ALDERSON [.*
REPORT 1.YG 400 Virgiair Ave., 3.W. Washing en,
C. C.
20024 Talachene : (202) 534-2345 80072500Jl
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1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULA'ORY COMMISSION
/
3 3RIEFING ON MID-YEAR REVIEW OF 4
FINANCIAL PLANS AND PROGRAMS 5
PUBLIC EEETING 6
7 Nuclee; Regulatory Commission Roor. 1130 8
17i7 H Street, N.W.
';i s h ing to n,
D.
C.
9 Tuesday, 'J u ly 15, 19c0 10 The Commission set, pursuant to no tice, at 2:05 11 p.m.
12 BEFORE:-
13 JOHN F.
AHEARNE, Chairman of the Commission 14 VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner 15 JOSEPH 3.
HENDRIE, Commissioner 16 PETER A.
BRADFORD, Commissioner 17 STAFF PRESENT:
18 C.
STOISER 19 ALSO PRESENT:
20 W.
DIRCKS 21 N.
HALLER n
L. BARRY 23 H.
DENTON 24 K. CORNELL 25 ALSO ??.ESENT (con-inued):
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. HANRAHAN 2
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DON 00 HUE
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 l
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DISCLLE
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n is is an unofficial ::2:scripc of a. =ae:ing cf :he Uni:ed S:a:as Nuclear Regula:ory Cc -dssion held en July 15, 1980 in the Cetmnission's officas ac 1717 E S::eet, N. W.,
Washing:cu, D. C Le see ing was open :c public ac andasca and obser ra:1cn.
, ' This ::anscrip: has set been reviewed, cc::ected, c: edi:ad, and i: =ay ccccais inaccuracias.
Tha : anscripc is i==andad solely fc: geseral indc:=a:1c:a1 purposes.
As p:cvided.by 10 C71 9.103, 1: is noe par: of -le fornal or infor:a1 record of decision of :he cac:ars discussed.
Expressicus of epd ad en in
'-d e ransc-1p: dc noc secessa:117 reflec: final decar=1:a:1c=s or beliefs.
No pleadd ? cr c her paper =ay be filed vi:h the Cc-dssion is any p cceeding as the rasul: of or addressed :o any s:a:=-=": c: arg*,=:e== con:= d ed herais, except as -le Cc dssien ca7 authorice.
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1 E E 2 C E E 21 ' E I d
2 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
The Commission meets this 3
aftarnoon for a FY 1980 Mid-Year Resource Eeview is one 4
title, or EDO Program Review is another title.
'J e h a v e 5
approximately one hour for Bill to cover wha t is probably 6
enough material to take two days.
In the interest of moving 7
on, I turn it over to Ra pid '41111a m.
8 (Laughter.)
9 HR. DIRCKS, I am going to divide it into two 10 basic parts.
One is the financial plan, a summary of the 11 financial condition of the agency.
The second part I am 12 going to talk about is the mid-year review of the programs, 13 concentrating on the 19 program areas that a re related to 14 the DPPG, and even then I will not be rovering all of them.
15 -
I will cover five or six of them that I think are 16 significant issues th a t the Commission should focus on.
17 May I have the first slide, please?
18 M< I have the seccnd slide.
19 This basically shows you the financial con.tition, 20 where we are as of today, and where we are going.
As of 21 April 1,
we had an obligating at the ra te of 63 percent, n
which is fairly good, and as of June 1,
we are up to 77 23 percent, and we should basically make our obli;ational 24 ceiling within the ceiling and not too nucn under it.
3 I do have figures on there for the carry-over, :P. e ALOERSON AEPORTING CCMPANY. INC.
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1979 carry-over, theb the re program carry-ov er, and
- . e 2
supplemental.
3 The next chart, please.
4 This gives you some idea of the success that we 5
have had on the supplemental.
We asked for $49.2 million 6
and 60 people.
We got $32 million and 32 people, 18 for the 7
AUD, 11 for IE, and three of OPA.
8 Next slide, please.
9 This is a breakdown as to the individual offices.
10 I can whip through these fairly quickly unless you want me 11 to stop for any reason.
Basically, we are covering the 12 financial position.
13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE.
I ar. not sure I understand the 14 historical base mine.s 13 percent?
15 MR. DISCKS:
That is the :ste that we had 16 obligated in the past, 1".3.
If we had obligated at that 1:7 rate this year, we would have obligated 17.3 percent.
18 CHAIRMAN AHEA3NE:
I see.
19 MR. 3ARBY:
We are a little behind in ::EE in 20 obligations compared to previous years.
21 CH AI~.t M A N AHE A R NE :
Okay.
Z1 MR. DIRCKS:
Ihe next slide, please.
Z3 Again there is that historical base.
We are sheed 24 in II.
25 Next slide, please.
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Again they are slightly below their nistorical 2'
base.
3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
But we are expecting 100 4
percent commitment.
5 MR. DIRCKS Ri;ht.
6 MR. BARRYs They are expecting to obligate their 7
funds, and they have historically done so.
They have laqqed 8
a bit.
One of the problems is that they try to go outside 9
the labs and go contract, and that slows up the pcocess.
10 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
What does it tell you when 11 rou see sinus 37 percent?
What does tha t say to you?
12 MR. DIRCKS It is lagging behind their historical 13 base.
14 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
What does it mean has to 15 be done?
18 MR. DIRCKS:
If they stay at this rate, they will 17 unda r-ob lig a to.
18 MR. BARRY:
One thing it means is that ny staff 19 gets out to find out whether, in fact, they are coing to 20 obligate, and why they think they are going to ob11:ste.
If 21 they are not going to o bliga te, we start talking about usinc 22 the money for reprogramming.
23 MR. DICKS:
Noving the money to other pro;ra.?s. Te 24 go through that exercise quite a bit.
But "9SE, they nava 25 co n ditio nall y obli;ated to their f ull amoun t.
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1 MR. BARRY:
Right.
2 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE.
Do we have fourth quarter 3
limitations this year that are any mo re stringent than th e 4
eustomary admonitions not to save three quarters of the 5
ytar, and then spend.
6 MR. BARRY:
'd e j u s t received an OMB boilerplate 7
saying, do not exceed your normal obligation rate.
In' cur 8
case our fourth quarter is always very high.
It has been 9
that way for some time.
10 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
I am not su re their letter 11 said, don't change your historical patterns.
I suspect 12 their letter said, don't obligste at a greater race in the 13 fourth quarter than other quarters.
14 MR. DIRCKS:
The. key figure in all these slides is 15 to look at the commitments, too.
'4 hen you say commitment, 16 it means the office has basically as told Contract, se want 17 to put so much money into a contract.
The obligation is 18 when the contract is actually signed.
That is the lagging 19 part program..
20 MR. BARRY:
'4e received a pretty substantial 21 supplemental, and we don't have that yet.
In other words, 22 the apportionment out of OM3, we don't have t h e.
- yet, o you 23 have to obligate that in the last quarter.
24
- 22. MANRAHAN:
In the NMSS case, tney ray they are 25 going outside of the procurement actions.
They ar=
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underway, then.
2 MR. BARRY:
They have a significant amount 3
committed, 57 million of their total.
4 MR. DIRCKS:
Let's go to the next one, please.
5 Research is always very good.
Go the research, 6
the next one.
7 Research is excallent as far is getting th eir 8
money obligated.
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
They know the past history that 10 if they don't, it gets taken.
11 MR. DIRCKS:
They are excellent in obligating.
12 CHAIREAN AREARNE:
The comment at the bottom, 13 seismic and waste only low iress non DOE work, is that meant 14 to imply that the DOE work is obligated faster.
15 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes, when you go to labs -.
16 CDMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
It is months easier.
17 MR. DIRCKS:
To obligate under commercial 18 contracts takes six to nine months to get the noney out.
19 That is why you see lagging obligations.
20 CHAIRMAN AH EA RNE.
'4 hen we put in the b ud g et 21 proposal, do we take into account this difference in Z2 approach?
If, for example, one were going to switch in any Z3 given year fros internal to external, to external.to 24 inte rnal, it would seem to make a substantial difference in 3
the amount of money that would be needed in s ;iven year.
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MR. DIRCKS:
If we went full scope, and tried to 2
make a significant switch over to commercial cantracts, it 3
would drastically affect the way we do our financial 4
planning.
Even with good planning in SMSS we tried to write 5
scopes of wo rk righ t now f o r th e Fiscal 'E1 year.
What 6
happens, even at this time if you transfer these scopes of 7
work with the Fiscal '81 mon"ey over to contracts, the 8
contracts would get voted down with the end of the year 9
obligations.
So it is a never ending circle.
It is a very 10 difficult problem.
11 CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
Will the two-year cycle help?
12 MR. DIRCKS:
I think it will.
13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Or is it authorirations that 14 are two years?
15 MR. DIRCKS:
It will certainly give a boost at the 16 beginning'.
It would allow you to do a little nors advance t
17 planning.
18 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Okay.
19 MR. DIRCKS:
Next slide, please.
20 Ihese are amounts that we at one thou;ht we needed 21 to reprogram money into.
We have identified the sources.
Z2 Some of the needs have been slippin; into :ther years, Zi therefore, we don't have the type 3 souces right now to, 24 namber one, data base is lingering out ther? With additional 25 studies.
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The only one we have firmly identified is resident 2
inspector, and we will have to put money into that ares.
'l e 3
have identified sources for reprogramming.
4 Next slide, please.
5 Uncosted balances,. this is Len Barry's technical 6
project, and I will let him get into that.
7 ME. BARRY As some of you know, when your 8
uncosted balance gets very heavy, you can well be criticized 9
by the GAO and by the Congress.
When you are asking for 10 obligational authority that you cannot possibly use during-11 the year tha t you asked for it, obviously some obligation 12 authority has to carry into the second year.
It certainly 13 should not be uncontrollable.
14 As you can see on this chart, at the end of 1976 15 we had an uncosted obligation balance of $45 aillion.
At 16 the rate of obligation that we were incurring at the end of 1'7 1976, we had enough money to last for 16.7 nonths.
In fact, 18 that is what h,appened.
19 So we have been working at this program for s 20 while.
Yo,u can see now, even though our prograr. hac 21 increased over the past five years, as an exangle at ene end 22 of 1979 we had an uncosted carry-over of 570 million.
At 23 the rate of costing that money sill carry it for shout nine 24 months.
25 CHAIEMAN AHEARNED:
'4 h a t is the dif f erence batweer ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, !NC.
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uno 117ated and uncosted?
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2 MR. BARRY:
When you actually si;n the contract er 3
th e task order with DOE you obligate the money.
As the work 4
is progressing, you cost it.
So what this really means is 5
that at the end of Fiscal Year '79 you had obligated the 570 6
million.
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Obliga ted, b ut uncosted.
8 MR. BARRY:
Right.
So you can see the trend is 9
definitely improving with time.
I would lik e to see an 10 uncosted not exceed nine months, and most of it costed out 11 in six months, which means that you have a pretty solid 12 program.
13 MR. DIRCKS:
You can show the last slide, but 14 basically we don't perceive any financial difficulties.
On 15 that happy nota, I will go to the next one.
16 The next is a summary of the pro;ress of the l'7 prog rams, basically where we have laid out the major 13 objectives and what accomplishments we have.
It will ;ive 1-)
you, I think a pretty good idea of the structure that v4 20 would like to erect for this program review.
- ie cartainly 21 don't have the thing set in place yet.
We have a lot : ore 22 to do on tracking program, and measuring the implementation Z3 of p rograms.
4 24 As we ;o througn this, keep in mind that it is a 25 shaky structure now.
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1 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
The good news is that we 2
know how to spend the money.
'3 MR. DIRCKS:
I have a feeling we know how to track 4
it 5
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
We know how to spend money.
6 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
That is what I meant.
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
The money, I am no t sure.
8 MR. DIRCKS4 What we don't want to do is to spend 9
more money tracking programs than carrying them out.
10 (Laughter.)
11 MR. DIRCKS:
Could I have the first slide, please?
12 These are the 19 programs that ha"e 'ceen 13 iden tified as the ones that we are trackin;, even through 1<4 the relatively rudimentary process that we have now.
It is 15 an area that I think not only the Commission focuses on a 16 lot in many of its meetings, but it is an area that we track 17 as best we can, and it is related to the ???G.
18 There are 19 of them, six NRR, five in N:'5 6, one 19 in ICE -- ICE surprisingly only has one that we have 20 identified.
There are others, and we vill talk about a 21 couple of issues related to ICE as we get into it.
In 22 Research there are two items that we are tryin; to kee; 23 track of, Standards has two; I?, one; Kevin Cornell's arsa, 24 ve are payin; a lot of attention to that ene, too.
- Then, 25 Carl Michelson's operating data.
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is a special case, and I will have to spend i little ti?.a on 2.
th a t at the end.
3 The next slide, please.
4 This will give you some idea of the magnitude of I
5 the 19 programs in relationship to the f ull budge t of the 6
agency.
The FY-80 program support is 5238 million total.
4 7
In the 19 programs, we have $88 million that we are 8
tracking.
I think the dispa rity,in there is the research 9
program that is in the total of the agency.
10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
It looks like you are tracking 11 all of the non-research program support.
12 MR. DIRCKS:
Essentially, yes.
You can get this 13 feel when you go to the staff years for the agencies, 2,265 14 in the major of-fices, and 100 people in the 19 progran areas.
15 The next slide please.
16 I mentioned that we intend to do better.
These l'7 are some of our intentions that we have outlined for the '31 18 program.
With the 19 prog ra m areas, we certainly will try 19 to establish milestones on a much more firm basis, nany 20 checkpoints that are much more meaningful than we have F. o v.
21 I am going to try to tie the accomplishment Of 22 objectives to the SES system.
It is a good intention, sad I 23 Vill try to pursue it.
I need some sort of a simple 24 reporting system to the Commission.
I knov ! have beer o r.
4 25 the receiving end of reporting instead of the civing and ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY. tNC.
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when I was with NMSS, and th ere are things bein; tracked at 2
the EDO that vere in far too great a detail, such more 3
detail than even a program office directors would try to 4
track.
If you really get down in depth into the programs, 5
you have spant half of your tima just reviewing the reports 6
and not accomplishing anything.
7 What we are going to do is to straigh ten out this 8
thing, and get it easy to handle.
9 With that state #ent of good intentions, I will go 10 to where we are today.
11 The first office program is NER, and they have six 12 prog rams tha t we are concentrating on.
case wo rk ; fire 13 protection; unresolved safety issues; operating reactor 14 licensing actions; systematic evaluation geogram, and 15 qualifications of safety related programs.
We just added 16 that in there in caso you did not have enough of the whole l'7 thing this torning.
18 Of the six, I have sort of issue notes on about 19 five of them.
Of all the offices, this seems to be where 20 most of the issues are this year, and : in sure it is 21 related to the progra:. and the turmoil that we have been 22 through this past year.
23 In the area of cacework, if you will show thzt 24 slide.
There are ba sically three major objectiver.
The 3
major 4.ssue here, and I think that it is quita clear to
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of us, is the issue that the Congress has given us in the 2
area of casework.
3 The Appropriations Committee has asked us to 4
report to them monthly on the status of the licensing 5
program, and the status, I guess, of management within the 6
agency.
We are going to have to develop some sort of a 7
system for tracking.
8 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I think th e y probably view that 9
as required answers.
10 N3. DIRCKS:
That is the major issue here.
We 11 have id e n tified. i t.
It is a t ra cking problem that we have, 12 and also a scorecard th a t they tre going to be looking at.
13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I imagine the scorecard they 1<4 are looking for is the same kind of sheet that "We develop t
15 for the testimony.
16 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes, with whatever notes we have.
17 In the licensing requirements, and near erm 'ais, 18 we have been to the Commission many tines.
We have 19 synthetized af ter th e action, and tried to d evelop 20
-requirements.
21 Major objectives, you are aware of the status ZZ action thera.- The Commission has f uel load requirements.
23 The next case coming up before the C mission will i
24 be, of course, the North Anna full power licensinc case, int 25 that will be going up within :ne next week or sc.
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The near-term construction permit requirements, !
2 think almost every Commission now has asked me about that.
3 The same answer is, next week.
I hope that we will get it 4
next week.
5 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
The answer depends on which 6
week it is asked.
7 (Laughter.)
8 MR. DIRCKS:
I am giving you the same answer I got.
9 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:.All Commissioners get the 10 same answer in different weeks.
11 MR. DIRCKS:
We don't treat anyone specially.
We 12 treat them all the same by giving them the same answer.
13 Somewhere in the agency are the naar term 14 construction permit requirements.
15 Fire protection --
16 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD; Before you go on.
17 On pover reactor casework, there seems to be a 18 somewhat more upbeat note to the slide than there is to the 19 back-up volume here consistently.
The summary here is that 20 "Due to the impact on licensing, all of casework is behind.
21 The staff work is 58 percent less than projected.
Two 22 milestones have been completed as opposed to the 1c 23 projected."
24 In the time allowed, clearly we won't have ti,e to 25 deal with tae whole book, but I am a little concerned.
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1 one goes through the book, time after time you come across 2
problems tha t are not displa yed on the slide.
3 MR. DIRCKS:
This gets back to the first point 4
tha t I was talking about.
5 The book you have there, I think, is an attempt to 6
get into the detail of the program when we still don't have 7
the tools to get into it.
There is a discrepancy be tween 8
what you have there and maybe what is on the slide, and 9
maybe what is true in real life.
I don't know.
It is a 10 problem that we have of really getting into the programs, 11 and picking out some real firm milestone, an getting some 12 real data against them.
13 I don't have that right.
Norm has attempted to 14 get in, and that is the product of his work.
I found to te 15 be true in NMSS when I was over there.
I would get notas 16 from the PA that would tell me that I was 52 percent of my 17 accomplished goals, and 30 percent of.ty resources, and I 18 did not recognize what I was being to ld.
I had to do a lot 19 of scrounging around to find out exactly what the true story 20 was.
21 I think the book that you have is a ;ood ZZ beginning.
It is an attempt to track these things.
Ec: it 23 is giving you a f ar more detailed picture than is actually 24 happening.
All I can do today is review in gross terms M
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match up with what you have in that book there, or the 2
statistical numbers that may come out of th e F A.
We have to 3
marry the two things, what is actually happening and the M?A 4
tracking system.
5 I have to apologize that we are not tnere yet.
It 6
is something that we have to work on.
What I would like to 7
do is to take each one of these 19 program areas, and take 8
about three or four milestone and really track hard against 9
them.
10 COMMISSIONER BRADFOSD:
Will that, then, have a 11 tendency to bias the office work pretty heavily toward the 12 milestones?
13 M3. DIRCKSa What I would hope is that the 14 milestones sould be true milestones, and show in very real 15 term the program accomplishments.
16 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Hopefully the milestones will 17 be established to keep the worx on track to what is nost 18 important.
19 MR. DIRCKSs Yes, and then hopefully that would 20 bias the office toward the milestones.
It :.s an intera:ive 21 process.
You first try to develop a tracking system, and 22 after you have really shown that you can develop a trarkin-23 system, then program managers and office directors get 24 interested in negotiating what are the real milestones.
25 Ihen when the tracking system looks at it, it te; ins to ma%=
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a lot more sense than it does the first couple of times when 2
there is not that concentrated effort and agreement.
3 COMMISSIONER BRADFCRD:
It is difficult because 4
one gets this, and you read through it.
I guess what Bill 5
is saying now is that there is not too much you can make of 6
it.
7 MR. DIRCKS4 What I am saying is that new you 8
can't make too much of it.
I hope we are getting better.
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
The framework of the system is
' 70 there.
It is being fleshed out.
I think that Norm agrees s
11 that it still needs some effort.
d2 MR. HALLER:
Very definitely.
I would like to 13 make one comment here.
The data that you have was our first 1,4 attempt at such a thing for the end March of timeframe.
t 15 Subsequent to that, as we have gone througn the budget 16 review process, we have been made aware of a number of very 17 sign ifican t reprogrammings from what we perceived to be the 18 baseline in the operating plan as of that date to where we 19 are now.
20 I am spesking of big blocks of people whc have 21 been shiftad from one decision unit into ano ther.
Ihera I
22 have also been millions of dollars moved from one place to 23 :
another.
Those are the scets of things that we are tryin; 1
24 to sort out.
In fact, we are talking about defining a 25 mid-year operating plan for the rest of the fiscal yesr.
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CDMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Can you put that in the 2
context of the comment that I had read in here, to get some 3
sense of how one has to adjust.
"The staff effort is 58 4
percent less than projected," what you at saying is that l
5 the explanation for that is that the staff was reprogrammed l
l 6
away from the casework?
l t
'mpression, yes.
i 7
MR. HALLER:
That is my i
8 MR. DIRCKS:
Again, this gives you a false 9
impression of what has actually happened.
'4 hen you talk to about staff effort involved in a particular action, you are 11 talking about people filling out a time-card and alloca ting 12 their work.
Are they working on a case this week, when they 13 actually review a license, or are they working on a case 14 when they answer a letter from a Congressman who complains 15 about a license.
Sometimes the answer is depending on how 16 that person feels that day.
17 It is a matter of basing judgments on data that is 18 not too good to begin with.
19 CH AIRM AN AREARNE:
The system is getting there.
20 MR. DIRCKS:
It is getting there.
If we could 21 refine it, and get some discipline into it, it would work.
22 CH AIRMAN AHEARNE:
And you are naking progress on n
it.
24 MR. DIRCKS:
That is what we are hoping.
25 In the meantime, these books that you have i.-
ALCERSON AEPORTING COMPANY :NC.
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18 1
front of you they are more of a prototype than anything 2
else.
It is a framework in which to start putting the 3
numbers.
Ihe numbers that we have right now are relatively 4
vaak.
5 In addition to that, I think you have to also 6
realize that the agency in the last year has been throuch a 7
great deal of turmoil.
8 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
That is clear.
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I think the point Norn was 10 making, as I recall when we vent through this, is that the 11 baseline in many cases that we a re using did not have a 12 chance to get adjusted, in many cases, for Commission that 13 had shifted in changed priorities and changed programs.
14 COMMISSIONER ERADFORD:
Lat me try out a 15 generalization.
I am still trying to figure out wha t I am 16 going to do with this book in the next few weeks.
17 As far a general number, such as, "the effort is 18 58 percent less than projected," it does not sound as though 19 I should put much meaning into that.
But for an issue, such 20 as unresolved safety issues, where it says, "every issua his 21 slipped at one time or ano ther," there presumably the ZZ info rmation is a little hard er.
'4 e are talking abrut 23 specific programs, and it tells you that the progra. is no:
24 where you want it.
25 MR. OIRCKS:
In the area shere an unrasolved ALOERSON REPCRTING COMP ANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. o,C. 20024 (202)554 2345
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19 1
safety issue was pCodected to be completed by X date, and it 2
did not meet that date, that is a raal fact that we have 3
just not resolved it, because when you get into the question 4
of what the resolution of a safety issue --
5 COMMISSIONE3:
There is tha t, and there is also 6
the question of why it slipped.
The mere fact that it 7
slipped does not necessarily tell you that there was not a 8
perfectly legitimate emphasis being placed somewhere else.
9 But at least where the statement seems to be based on hard 10 fact, I take it it is probab'ly reliable.
It is just the 11 acre subjective elements, like percentages of manpower, 12 which are still pretty fu :y?
13 HR. DIRCKS:
I think that it is how manpower is to t
j 14 be allocated, how we track manpower, and how we track when 15 someone signs a purchase order or a contract allocated 16 against a particular coded work.
Is he codin; the work l
17 right?
Is he going into the right account?
When he 18 allocates money against one project, does some othar project I
19 get the benefit also?
20 It is trying to get a hold of the account, 21 marrying the accounting system with the actual work that is 22 being produced, and then coming out with some sort of a Z3 fairly callible reporting system.
That is the difficulty.
24 Now that we have narrowed it down so that we ran 25 focus on 19 major programs, I :nink at least we can point ALCERSON REPORTING CCMPANY. INC.
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out where we want to go.
An I said at the beginning, we are 2
not nearly there.
If the program sounds optimistic, that is 3
'the general tendency to of people to point out at least what 4
has been acniaved.
The simple fact that sone things have 5
been achievad is almost a bonus.
6 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I took you away from fire 7
protection.
8 MR. D:"OKS:
Fire protection is the next one.
9 Again, you will find in here an op timistic, upbeat 10 tone that some things are being accomplished.
My comment 11 here is probably the same as yours.
Fire protection as an 12 identifiable program has been going on for years.
I 13 camamber that it started up in 1975.
Everyone sat around 14 the table and said "We want to have some way of focusing 15 attention on fire protection," as a result of 3rowns Ferry.
16 I don't think we have a clearly defined end point 17 program.
18 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:
Ihis is the 3rowns Ferry 19 Action Plan.
20 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes, the Browns Ferry Action ?lan.
21 It generates more end points than it is generating ansvers.
Z2 What I am going to do is ask NRR basically to take 23 another look at this action plan, and vnat they want Oc 24 accomplish by what date, and come back to me.
We don't have 25 it righ t nov.
We did not have it for tnis exercirs.
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400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTCN, O.C. 20024 (202)554 2345
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9
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1 we have tried to do is to get some input established.
2 I have also asked them to meet with me quarterly 3
to see if I can track it in a much more personal manner.
4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
In the spirit of one 5
particular end' point, No.
3, the resolving of contested 6
issues, public comments having been received on the proposed th3 : is somewhat aside from 7
rules.
As I understand it 8
the technique of tracking decisions -- a lot of licensees 9
are waiting to see what that rule is before they start 16 taking any of the actions that it seems to me they ought to 11 be taking in view of the daadline that the Commission has 12 set.
13 So the sooner you can get that rule up to us, I
/
14 think, the better the chance of actually reaching an end 15 point on th a t subject.
Do you know where it is at the 16 moment?
17 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs That was the 30 days.
18 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
I think that is right.
19 MR. DIRCKS4 The proposed rule is scheduled fer 20 October.
21 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
No.
Ihat is the date that i:
ZZ is supposed to go into effect.
Ihe way it was put out there 23 was an additional 30 days for romments, and we were su posst 24 to get these comments.
The Cetober date is the date that it 25 is supposed to go into effect.
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MR. DIRCKS:
It is the final rules.
2 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I think wha' Peter is pointing 3
out is that the sooner you get ap to us any com:ents, th e 4
sooner we can address whether any modification should be 5
made.
6 MR. DIRCKS:
That is right.
7 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs That was the rule rather than 8
making it immediately effective.
9 COM2ISSIONER RRADFORD:
My concern is tha t what I 10 am gathering is that people are waiting as long as they can 11 in the rule process, and that that is going to mak e th e 12 meeting of the deadline very unlikely at the end.
13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE4 That is a good point.
14 3R. DIRCKS:
Next slide, please.
Let's co to the 15 next one after that, the unresolved safety issues.
16 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI Where does something like 17 the rulemaking on the degraded core cooling come in; in this 18 category?
19 MR. DIRCKSs No.
Let me check that.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
I did not see that.
21 MR. DIRCKS:
Degraded core cooling is a standard.
22 What we have done is picked degraded core cooling, emergency 23 planning, and siting core, and we are treating ther as a 24 separate itam.
We have not picked it up in this 1? pre;ra 25 thing.
ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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.s-1 Bob Minogue by mid-August will have sort of an 2
integrated program plan for dealing with th e se three.
?ut 3
by mid-August we should have these three things so that we 4
can tie them together, because it cuts across three offices 5
at least, plus Kevin's area.
6 The question has been raised, are we treating the:
7 as a single entity?
Are ve aware of the impacts?
Are we 8
aware of the need for consolidation?
The answer is yes.
9 Bob Minogue has it.
Hinogue is aware of it, and by 10 mid-August we should have some way to show the Coomission 11 that we are going to treat these things in some sort of a 12 comp rehensive f ashion.
13 The issue on unresolved safety issues is, what do
- 14 ve mean when we resolve a safety issue.
Deec it mean that 15 we issue a NUREG report?
Does it mean that we write an 16 amendment to a license, when the licensee actually opposed 17 it?
18 What I as going to do here basically is to go back 19 to the officers to see if I can get a better definition.
20 We have talked about it within the context of budget.
fou 21 vill hear about it next week when we talk about budgets.
22 Until we know what we mean by the resciution of an Z3 issue, it is very hard to track whether we ".17e actually 24 done it.
25 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
There is a working ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
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de finitio n, isn't there?
2 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes, there is a working definition.
3 COMMISSIONER 3R ADFORD It just does not happen to 4
coincide with what most people would think what resolution 5
meant.
6 MR. DIRCKS:
I think that we in the offices are 7
aware of it.
Harold is aware of it.
'Je kicked it around in 8
the bud;et process, and we are going to try to come up witn 9
some sort of a definition that means that we have resolved 10 it, and it is actually in place.
11 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD That is ri~ht, bec;use 12 otherwise what you have to have is a second phase where the 13 resolution is implemented, and that has to be tracked just 14 as such.
15 MR. DIRCKS:
Here you are talking about issuing 16 NUREG reports.
It is nice to ;et a report out, but unioss 17 it actually means that the safety issue has been resolved 18 and is actually effective, issuing a report may not do it.
19 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
Doesn't it cesa that we 20 have decided what the requirements are, and everything?
21 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes, it means that, but it also means Z1
-- If you decided on a requirement, what we really need, Z) after you write an amendment i:plementinc, and asking the 24 licensee to implement tne requirement, it would alr0 he nice 25 to see if the licensee implement tne requirement.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Some people would.
I think, as 2
Bill is point out, there is support for the idea that we 3
have identified something as unresolved issue with respect 4
to a plant that the resolution occurs af ter you have 5
iden tified, if a,fix has to be made, if the fix is made.
6 C05MISSIONER BRADFORD:
If you are living near a 7
pla n t that has an unresolved issue, in your view th e 8
resolution is going to be when that plant does it, and you 9
no longer worry about that issue.
10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE' In some cases it could be when 11 the resolution is that there is no problem, and the other 12 would be when the thing is fixad.
13 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Ies.
1 14 COMMISSI3NER GILINSKIs But that is a different 15 sort of thing.
It is like phase 1 and phase 2.
One is 16 figuring out what it is that this agency is going to l'7 require, and the second is carrying it out.
18 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I think that Bill is pointing 19 out that currently there does not seem to be any phase :
20 that is explicitly defined that you can really track.
21 MR. DIRCKS:
Once you e s tab li sh a requirement.
22 You will get the chance to establish a requirenant because 23 AT'J A S is cosing down as a safety issue that
'.is been 24 resolved and will be down within the next week or cc.
It is 25 a rulemaking actually.
Then you will h a ve a :.m an ce to ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, !NC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 s
26 1
establish a requirement, then you track that throuch, and 2
actually impose a requirement.
I think to an outsider that 3
is the true resolution of the issue.
4 There are six new unresolved safety issues that 5
have been sent down to the Commission.
6 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes.
7 MR. DIRCKS:
The next slide, please.
8 Operating reactor licensing actions --
9 COEMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Bill, let me just ask a 10 question on that part again.
11 Here is the book more reliable.
What it says is 12 th at every unresolved cafety issue has slipped at one time 13 or another, and then it goes on to make some statements 14 about those.
t 15 I would not have gathered that just from th e slid e 16 and the presentation on it.
17 MR. DIRCKS I guess there is a little bit c 18 everything in there.
There are four unresolved safety 19 issues, and at least progress is being
?. a d e.
They may have 20 slipped.
There are slippages, I think, up and dcwn the line 21 in the unresolved safety issues.
Some have been unresc1ved 22 and are extremely difficult to resolve.
23 Even getting a technical solution for a water 24 hammer is a thing that stays on the unresolved safety issuss 25 year in and year out.
We have always established dates for 6
ALcERSON REPCRTING COMPANY, !NC.
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it, and technically we don't solve that safety issue.
2 They get on the list.
It is identified as a 3
problem.
In the case of water hammer -- I hate to beat that 4
one to death because every budget year it is still there --
5 the problem that it is difficult to articulate the problem.
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKIs Let me ask you this.
'J h a t 7
does it meant that it is an unresolved safety issue if we 8
are going ahead and licensing reactors?
9 How does this being an unresolved safety issue 10 affect anything?
11 MR. DIRCKS:
There is a definition that we just 12 learned last week, and I proceeded to forget.
It is the 13 definition of a generic issue, and an unresolved safety 14 issue.
I think Nore is digging out the definition.
Harold 15 is just sticking his head in the door as soon as you asked 16 that question.
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
Yes, I see Hr:c M.
18 COMMISSONEE HENDRIE:
It is an issue whien has 19 arisen, has safety connotations, is of concern in more than 20 one plant, and for which whatever measures are currently in 21 use, the staff thinks that there ought to be some acre 22 study, and either better confirmation than those tha t are an Z3 inadequate cure, or a better cure for the long-run.
24 In the m ean time, each unresolved safety issue '. a s 3
to be dealt with on each operating plant, and new ~icense in ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGT JN C.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
28 1
suen ever manner is practiral for the individual plants, and 2
in a way that the staff can make th e judgment that there is 3
adequate protection on that interim basis.
4 So the so-called generic issue or unresolved i
5 safety issue then gets worked on as a general problem.
6 Presumably, when it is brought to solution, appropriate 7
measures are recited for it, or sometimes after the analysis 8
you finally understand all the ins and outs, and decide you 9
don't have to add any more equipment or change.
10 Whenever that resolution is reached, presumably it 11 is implemented in an orderly way across the whole array of 12 plants for which it is applicable.
It is simply a way of 13 dealing with some things that seemed much handier to deal 14 with on a general basis than to deal with them in each of a 15 number of cases.
16 COMMISSION ER DILINSKI s 3us they are not so severe 17 as to inhibit the licensing of plants.
18 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
In each case, each plant 19 that is to be licensed, or that is licensed is jud;ed by the 20 staff to have adopted one set of measures Or another that 21 provides adaquate protection for that particular safety 22 concern over such period as may be required to complete the 23 generic resolution.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI:
What are examples of 25 things that have been resolved, that have been put to bad.
ALOERSON REPCRTING COMPANY. lNC.
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MR. DENTON:
I think that we sent down a list.
2 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
You sent down reports.
They 3
come periodically, and documents describing th o s e.
4 MR. DIRCKSs There are three here.
5 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
A resolve safety issue is 6
what we are after.
7 MR. DENTON:
We consider froa our standpoint that 8
there were three technical reports issues which resolved th e 9
issue to the satisfaction of staff.
One ts: on fracture 10 toughness for reactor vessel and steam gene rator/roclant 11 supports.
Another one was on the environmental 12 qualifications of equipment, and volume IV of the AT'lAS 13 report.
This means a technical position that is 14 satisfactory to the staff.
15 There have been a half-doren more that are not on
~
16 this table over the past year, where we have taken a 17 position on an issue that said, if it is done this way, it 18 is a satisfactory resolution of that.
Then that is worked 19 back through every plant that it applies to.
20 COMMISSIONER RRADFCRD.
Then for purposes of 21 plants still to be licensed, you expect if they adept it, ZZ they would get a license, and there would be no further 23 concern on this subject.
24 MR. DENTON:
That is right.
25 COMMISSIONER READFORD:
The plante that aave ALCERSCN REPCRTING COMPANY, INC.
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~. - -
1 already adopted an interim fix, they have some time to 2
convert the interim fix to conforn to the re soluticn?
3 MR. DENIONs Yes.
4 MR. DIRCKS4 The next one is reactor licen. sing 5
action.
The only item there that I want to call attention 6
to is the backlog of licensing ac tio n s.
7 COMMISSI36ER GILINSKIs One more question.
8 Where did the question of hydrogen control that we 9
have required to us, what would that cone under in this 10 list?
In that in any of the ca tego ries?
11 MR. DIRCKSs Certainly it vill be covered in the 12 tulemaking action.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKIs This piece of it is coming 14 to us early, the whole business of boiling water reactors, 15 ice condenser plants, and so on.
Is that one of the 19 16 groupings?
17 MR. DIRCKS:
In the unresolved safaty issues?
18 COMMISSIONER GIII.VSKI:
No, I mean these 19 19 programs?
t 20 MR. DIRCKS No.
If in any thing, it vculd be 21 covered in this IM action plan.
It is one of the results l
l n
of the TMI.
l l
23 COMMISS!3NER GILINSKI:
So it would be down ".ere?
24 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes.
l l
25 The backlog, the last'iten under accomplish =nts, 1
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the 1500 licensing actions versus the 934 projected for the 2
period, so we are a bit ahead of the projected.
3 Also, the problem here is that the process of 4
processing these things, it is sort of getting easier and 5
more difficult.
There is an increasing number of actions 6
th a t used to be processed on almost an administerial basis, 7
and now ther are being contested either by the licensee or 8
by intervenors.
So the process instead of getting simpler 9
is ge tting note and more difficult.
10 The SEP is the next item.
The issue in this case, 11 first of all, it is a program that has had a turbulant 12 period.
During the aftermath of the accident, people were 13 pulled away, and then put back on this thing.
The resources 144 have been pulled in and pulled off.
The same people who 15 were doing the T%I action items were in the SEP procram.
16 The resources have been restored to SEP now.
17 There is a problem in licensees not pursuing the 18 prograr vigorously as might be expected, a'a d it does drag it 19 out.
20 We need some clarification within our own staff 21 conretning the spe;111 definitions of what is to be done a t 22 each of the 11 plants.
We have to establish better 23 schedules.
The schedules that we have, we might as well 24 fold up and establish new schedules.
25
'Je have to figure out a relationshi; between this ALCERSCN AEPCPT!NG COMPANY, INC.
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program and the Baker amendment, where we ;o from here in 2
pursuing it, and at least tying it to the planning.
We have 3
to show some relationship of this progan with the IR I?
4 ac ti vitie s, and the unresolved safety issues.
5 NRR has the lead, and I have asked them, or vill 6
be asking them within the context of the follow-up actions 7
on the budget, to ask them to address each one of these 8
three points.
9 It is significant in terms of resources and 32 10 people, and the close to $1.6 million that we are putting in 11 this thing.
I just don't have a firm grasp for the 12 resources in that area.
13 The next slide, please.
14 Equipment qualifications, this is the one that you 15 have discussed at length today.
I had to leave early to go 18 across the street to another meeting.
I wanted to say that 17 we are asking the officers to establish a program plan for 18 this item.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
You are very responsive.
20 MR. DIRCKS:
I understand the Commission asked for 21 that this morning.
Z2 CH A IR M A N AHEARNE:
That is right.
23 3R. DIRCKS:
That was my punchline that : did
- r. o t 24 get to issue when I had to go off.
They are coin; to de 25 this.
i ALDERSON REPCRTING COMP ANY, INC, 400 VIRGINtA AVE. S.w.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
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If there are no questions, I could mcve off.
2 Next slide please.
Why don't you put the other 3
one on, and you will have some idea of the fiscal '90 4
resources.
We had some discussion revolving around that 5
this morning, and I wanted to place that table on the screen.
6 Why don't you go on to the next slide.
7 The next point is the NHSS program, and there are 8
five programs theres vaste management, domestic safeguards; 9
transportation, fuel cycle and material safety, and spect 10 fuel storage.
11 The first slide is the 15 -- Move on to the next 12 slide.
13 This is the high level vaste management program.
14 We have some problems in this area because ve have to find 15 out where ve are going with it.
There have been some 16 signals thrown up by the Congress tha t causes us to take a l'7 deep breath and wonder where it is heading.
18 The whole idea of demonstration sites is being 19 questioned by the Tongress, and we have to straighten that a
out.
We have no increases in the program.
~4e did not get 21 our supplemental request in the high level vaste management n
program.
We got no increases in the '31 program.
Je vers 23 told that tnis linked in with the whole issue of 24 reprocessing.
3
- iith that we have put this thing into a -- The ALrERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W. WASHINGTCN. O.C. 20024 (202)554-2345
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program is noving as far as we are concerned, but until we
- 2 get some further guidance, it is unclear.
3 There are some accomplishments in this area.
We 4
got the technical ruled out.
We have an advance notice out 5
on the technical reactor, and it is moving ahead.
6 The next slide, please.
7 This is the low level waste program.
Again, this 8
program has moved back and forth.
Resources have come in 9
and out of it.
I think that we have settled it down to some 10 extent.
There are 31 people and close to 53.5 million in 11 the total program.
There are three dedicated people right now working 12 13 TMI waste issue.
To the extent that wa move peopla off the 14 general low level waste program into something like TM, it 15 does slow down the rest of it.
They are working on low 16 level waste, but when you look'at the acok that Peter has l'7 there, you will find that some of the nilestone that should 18 have been accomplished have not been accomplished because 19 people are now working on the TMI waste issue.
That ir why 20 it is difficult to get these tw' in synch.
It is comething 21 that we have to dock on.
22 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Ihere are twe different 23 problems with the book.
If, in fact, the book is accurate, 24 but the explanation is that the people are workin; on TI 25 that is all right in itself.
There are always coing to b ALOERSON REPORT'NG CCMPANY, INC.
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35 1
some reason why a particular tar;e is not being net, and 2
one just wants a system that tells you what the reason is.
3 That is not the major concern.
4 The major concern is in areas whare the book is 5
for some reason non-reliable.
A particular index turns out 6
not to make sense in terms of the real world, or something 7
like.that.
But if the explanation is just that the goal was 8
not met because we reprogrammed, and put people to work on 9
somethin; else, then all we need is a system that tell you 10 that.
11 MR. DIRCKS:
It should be reflected in there.
1:2 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:
Yes.
13 MR. DIRCKS:
But things have been happening at 14 such a fa st pace that the actual records are not picking up 15 what is actually happening.
In some cases, the ;oals 7.ay 16 warrant --
17 May I have th e n ex t slide, please?
18 Granium recovery, there it is an issue that we 19 will get into sore as we get into the budget.
It is both a 20 casework problem, and actual development of regulations 21 problem.
We have got to get out the final GIIS n
regulations.
Ihey are supposed to be here.
The states wan t 23 them.
The same people who work on regulations are also 24 working on cases.
l 25
'Je have asked f or an increase in the '80 l
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supplemental and the
'91, and we were turned down.
It is 2
difficult to carry out this program faster, including the 3
support that we want to give to the agreement states.
It is 4
a real scarcity of resource problem.
5 The next slide, please.
6 There is one thing tha t I stressed when I got over 7
to NMSS, and that was to try to identify as much as possible 8
this program into the casework area.
I t;iink they have done 9
that.
It may not be reflected on all the books, and that is 10 the problem.
There were many things that they were doing 11 that were not counted as casework.
What we tried to do was 12 to put m u ch more emphasis on casework as on the development 13 of regulatory base activities.
14 They have also devticped something called the 15 generic technical issues, pulling a page fron the NER hook, 16 which I always marvelled at.
They would get resources over 17 in NRR, and 18 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I notice that you are 19 succeeding.
20 C3MMISSIONER GILINSKI:
Where is the upgrade rule, 21 then?
Z1 MR. DIRCKS:
The material control and accountin; Z3 upgrade rule?
24 COMMISSIONER GIIINSK!:
I t;'Ought there was also a 25 physical security upgrade rule.
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MR. DIRCKS:
The physical security upcrade rule, !
2 think you approved, and it is being implemented.
(
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKI Is that right?
4
- 53. DIRCKS:
Ies.
5 The material control and accounting upgrade rule 6
is still in the process of being finisheh.
7 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
Do n ' t you remember, we came 8
to a splendid set of compromises.
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I would question the word 10
" splendid."
11 COM3ISSIONER GILINSKI:
And the material 12 1: counting?
l 13 MR. DIRCKS:
I think there is an advance notice, 14 or an advance of rulingmakini' due in the early part of
'91.
~
15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I notice that the Browns Ferry 16 crew has arrived.
At the rate you are going, I take l't'that l'7 it will take you another hour to go through this.
18 So let me ask my colleagues, would they like to 19 allow the R owns Ferry people to talk for 20 minutes or so, 20 and then continue this?
21 COMMISSIONER 3RADFORD:
I cannot come back just 22 because I have things from 3:30 to 5:30.
But if the other Z3 three of you want to pick this up again after Browns Fe::y, i
24 that is fine.
25 C0"M!SSIONER HENDRIE:
I have an appointment at j
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3:30.
2 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Obviously, you are neither 3
going to hea r all of this, nor Browns Ferry.
Do you want to 4
hear Browns Ferry, or some more of this?
5 COMMISSI.ONER HENDRII:
We dragged O'Reilly all the 6
way up here f rom A tlanta.
I think that we have got to put 7
him on the platform while we still llave a chance to hear i
8 him.
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Let's move this aside for a 10 minute, and lat the Browns Ferry people come up.
11 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Let me just say, Bill, 12 since I will not ba back for the end of this, that I am 13 fully supportive of what you said about keeping the system 14 undar development, and then moving forward to see how that 15 comes out.
l 16 It seems to me that the ability to sit down, and 1
17 in a couple of hours go through thase programs, and get a l
]
18 sense of where they are, would be a terrific advance.
At 19 the moment you are in a position of having to tell us not to 20 believe our instruments, and that is one tha t I don't think 21 the agency should stand for much longer.
22 COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:
We will have to develop a 23 budgeta ry saf ety information valve to which we turn if there 24 is any doubt about the ordinary display.
25 (Recess.)
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Let's resume.
2 MR. DIRCKS:
I think we have finished domestic 3
safeguards, and we will go down to the next one.
4 The next slide, please.
5 Transportation has been identified as a progran 6
area that is being tracked.
No major issues there, except 7
that it was that old NSF spent fuel cask that was withdrawn, 8
and it is still out of service pending additional reviews.
9 There is another issue on the toughhass criteria 10 for transportation casks.
There does not seem to be any 11 interest in daveloping on a larger scale rasks on the part 12 of the vendors.
13 CH AIRM AN AHEARNE:
To take more elements?
14 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes, the 2,000 pound items.
15 MR. HANRAHAN:
Would that be just a railroad 16 cask?
17 MR. DIRCKS:
It is a rash that would have to be 18 100 tons.
19 MR. HANRAHAN:
Are the railroads still nervous?
20 MR. DIRCKS:
They have a special train.
21 CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
In the absence of reprocessing, n
you have to ground out fron the cask for business.
23
- 33. DI3CXSs Ameng other business.
24 (Laugnter.)
25 dR. DIRCK3s The next item is the fuel cycle anf ALDERSON REPCRTING COMP ANY, ;NC.
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material safety.
Ihis is a resource meter in N555. We are 2
going to have to a revolutionary look on the way ve do 3
satorials licensing.
This is the grind in and grind out 4
portion, the thousands of licenses.
It is a big production 5
ites.
We are always fighting a backlog.
We never seem to 6
be able to cope with it.
7 John Davis has talked to me about it.
He l's 8
taking a look at it.
We are going to come to the Commission s
9 with some proposals.
We just have to because this is 10 something which is being inundated.
11 I might mention two other issues here.
The ALAEA 12 Prog ra m 13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Would this also be where you 1<4
'have these medical licenses that get looked at by mail?
15 3R. DIRCKS:
Yes.
16 When you are dealing with thousands of licensees, 17 you just wonder what we are getting out of this.
18 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
It really is a fundamental and 19 philosophical question.
20 MR. DIRCK5:
Yes.
21 Lat me mention one other thing, the Part 20 rule ZZ that we are working on.
This is.an issue.
We have got a Z3 task force established, and it cuts across the offices.
You 24 do see resources in th e re.
You do see standards, and 25 research involved.
A lot of that is in tne Est: 20 effort.
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We are working to revise tht.
2 CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
Where to the 80 manyears of ICE 3
go?
4 MB. DIRCKS:
That is in the inspection of the 5
entire materials licensing a rea, not only the plants, the 6
fuel cycle plants, the materials licensees.
Those are the 7
ones that are involved.
The few that we have stationed at 8
the sites looking at trucks coming in.
As the number of 9
licenses increases, the number of inspectors would go up.
10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I would have thought that that 11 would have been under the transportation, and then under lov 12 level vaste.
13 MR. DIRCKS.
When we talk about inspectors there, 14 ve are talking about people who are concerned about whether 15 it is packaged correctif,.whether the licensee generating 16 the waste has packaged it correctly.
This is one way of 17 getting back to the generator.
18 CHAIR %AN AREARNE:
It does not come under the 19 transportation IEE?
20 MR. DIRCKS:
As far as I know, no.
I will check 21 it.
This is the inspector that looks at cask shipments, the 22 quality program an casks.
I can check this out very a
quickly.
24 Wnen you go back to the vaste generators, that is 25 where the problems occur that have closed down the sites.
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1 We have a cnoice, either focus the inspectors at the funnel 2
poin t, or spread the inspectors out to the thousands of 3
licensees.
4 The next ites is --
5 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
The fuel storage, is that the 6
next iten?
7 MR. DIRCKSa Spent fuel is the next item.
8 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
There is an increasing 9
interest, I gather, certainly in some elemen ts of the 10 Congress, and I suspeet in DOE for long-term surface 11 storage.
Where would that come as f ar as a regulatory 12 review; is that under high level waste management, or is 13 that in spent fuel storage?
14 MR. DIRCKSs It is under spent fuel storage.
15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Do we have anyone in here who 16 is looking at the question of longer term surface storage, 17 what if any different regulations are needed?
18 MR. DIRCKS:
I have asked that question a couple 19 of times, and they could license that under the' ?=rt 72 20 regulation.
21 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I would guess that we ougn to 22 try to make sure of that because given the pusn that appears 23 to be coming, we might get a request.
It vo uld be kind Cf 24 late at that time to then decide.
3 MR. DIRCKS4 I have asked, and I have been told 8
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that Part 72 covers it.
2 CHAIR 5AN AHEARNE:
There is a difference between 3
Part 72 would cover, and we would be comfortable with 4
applying Part 72.
5
- 58. DIRCKS I think that I asked that in two 6
ways, but we will ask one more time.
7 That completes the NESS portion.
The next one is 8
the revised inspaction program of IEE.
You can show that 9
slide.
10 This one does lay out the number of objectives 11 that we were given.
As shown there is a record of 12 accomplishments.
I think not all the objectives were 13 achieved, and I think you know the reasons for many of the 1<4 failures to achieve objectives.
15 The resident assignments have been impacted by the 16 financial impact of relocating, the hiring freece.
We have 17 a high turn over of inspectors.
The latest number comeone 18 says is 18 to 20 percent turnover.
19 The performance appraisal teams objectives have 3) not been met.
We need the same type of people in the 21 inspectors as we have on the PAC teams.
As of July 1,
FAC Z2 vas only about u7 percent staffed.
There are problems the.re 23 in staffing, and in assigning people.
24 The other item that certainly came up during the 25 budget review is th a t the scope and amount of inter 1ction j
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between the resident inspection program and the regional 2
basad inspectors -- Does one' build right on top of another?
3 Is there a substitution effect, does one relieve the other 4
of some inspecting activities?
Can we reduce one, and build 5
up the other?
these are questions that we have to ask.
6 The next series of questions to deal with, the 7
whole content of the inspection program, and how it may 8
reflect the priorities of the licensing notices..
This o
9 issue came up during the budget review.
It is something 10 that I have to talk to Vic about, getting the input of the 11 licensing notices in the inspector manual.
12 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I guess at the moment I am most 13 concerned about what I see as a potential for the whole 14 program to fall apart because of financial problems.
'4 e 15 are, on the one hand, trying to rapidly increase and 16 expanding this program which has in theory taken the better 17 of our people, and put them in an environment where they i
18 have much responsibility, but in practice what it has ended a
19 up doing is put them in a situation where they are liatie to 20 a significant fin.acial loss.
21 I just don't think that we are going to be able to 22 make it mucn longer with the stop gap measures that we have Z3 been trying t o w o r '<.
I think that the program could just 24 very well fall apart.
25 MR. OIRCKS:
I think that we are addrescin: sore ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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of those in some of the proposals that will be coning down 2
to you.
It is not only residents.
I think with the 3
inflation rate, the limitations on the amounts we ran 4
reimburse for travel, we are penalizing region based 5
inspectors who spend an awful lot of time on the road.
6 Ihese employees are taking a financial loan.
7 CH AIRM AN AHEARNE:
I don't think that we are going 8
to be able to continue.
9 MR. DIRCKS:
Those are the issues on the 10 inspection.
11 In the inspection program, the six between It is not on your chart.
It is 12 casident ani region based 13 an issue that really came up during the budget review when I 14 started asking the question, if you ha'e a resident sad v
15 reduce the number of safeguard inspectors.
It turned out 16 th a t the answer is, no, because one does not substitute for 17 the other.
I think that this just caused us to say, we vill 18 taka a look at the interaction.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Tha t was triggared by th e A C.S.5,
i 20 that is to simply write down in a fairly straighticrvard and 21 short way what are the duties of a resident inspector. To i
Z2 some extent, when that is clearer than it is nov, one can 5
3ddress taen if that is what a resident is, and what tna 24 other reductions or additional responsibilities that have to 25 be taken into consideration.
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MR. DIRCKS:
That is absolutely essential.
2 The research program, there are two items.
The 3
long-range research plan.
That is similar to the item that 4
we talked about earlier, the near-term constru: tion permit 5
items.
The answer is usually, it is in the mail, and you 6
will get it.
You are going to get it avery day, and it has 7
not arrived yet.
8 MR. HANRAHAN It is going to make tne budget 9
review very difficult.
10 MR. DIRCKS4 It certainly has.
11 There are a lot of office comments that have been 12 caised.
13 MR. HANRAHAN:
You say the plan was forwarded?
14 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes, but it has not arrived.
15 MR. HANRAHAN:
Last Thursday?
16 XR. DIROKS:
Yes.
17 The post office dropped it off in Paris.
l 18
' Laughter.)
19 MR. HARRAHANs This is the debt rystec?
20 MR. 3ARRY:
This has nothing to do with debts.
21 Debt is a problem, but it is not related to that.
22 MR. DI3CKS:
Certainly in tha context cf the i
Z3 research plan in the budget,. We are going to have to talk 24 about LCFT and its future, that is an example tha t we had 3
some discussions going on between c:fices.
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The next slide, please.
2 This is. risk assessment.
It is difficult for me to get too deep into this thing because I really have ;otten 4
that deeply into it.
We talked about it in the budget.
The 5
Comaission has talked about it not only this year, but in 6
past years, how to get this methodology used in licensing 7
no ti ces.
8 To some extent, you have seen so:e use of it in 9
some of.the activities you have touched on, the Indian Point 10 case, and others.
11 The underlying feeling, at least on sy part and 12 that of others, is that it has not been used enough, and how 13 we factor it in there.
14 Just the simple fact that we have got the 15 re urces.
Ihere was no other resources listed excep t for 16 th e researca program.
I think only at the last sinute, l'7 scurrying back, Norm dug up some resources that are 18 applicable to this effort.
We have to build a broader 19 vision of this program.
20 CHAIR.4AN AHEARNE:
Since it was a year and a half 21 ago, the Commission reached the conclusion af ter the Lewis Z2 study that, yes, this would have to be built into the 23 licensing process, we are obviously ma?.ing slow head way.
24 I can see what we are going to do.
e are 7:ing 3
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1 then we are going to blend research with IEE and NR3.
2 (laughter.)
7
- 58. DISCKS:
You will see more of this.
Bob 4
Bornero has come out of the office, and he is making a 5
dir ct attempt to get this thing into the licensing process.
6 The next slide s the two basic programs within 7
Standards Davelopment, the health effects of low level 8
radiation, and the decommissianing item.
9 May I have the next slide, please?
10 CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
Do you fit occupational 11 exposure under that one, or is it a separate number?
12 3R. DIRCKS:
That would come under that.
13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I would have thought that under 14 major issues, you sould have addressed this problem of 15 getting on with that rulemaking, the joint hearinc with I?A.
16 MR. DIRCKS:
That is an issue that EPA has not T7 come along as rapidly as we wanted them to come.
18 CHAIRMAN AHEAENE:
It is understandable.
19 MR. DIRCKS:
It is connected in~with Part 20, 20 which I mentioned earlier.
We have gotten con:ents back o r.
21 that Part 20 rule.
22 CHAIRMAN AHEABNE:
Can you explain, " met with Z3 reluctance of a Federal agency to supply data"?
This is in 24 No. 2 under major issues and problems.
25 3R. DISCKS:
Ihat is the National In:titute Of 1
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Mental Health.
2 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Which was the Federal agency 3
that was reluctant to supply the data?
4 MR.
DIRCKS:
It must have been SIMH.
5 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs The National Institute of 6
Mental Health?
7 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes.
8 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I was just trying to find out 9
what that was.
10 MB. DIRCKS:
The area o-decommissioning --
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
In the area of decommissioning, 12 ve are going to get the GEIS out?
13 MR. DIRCKS:
We actually could get one.
It is 14 being circulated at least among the offices.
15 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Who is the contracto r on the 16 GEIS?
It says that the contractor was unsatisfactory.
I'7 MR. DIRCKS:
They were late in getting --
18 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I was just wondering whether it 19 was on paper?
20 MR. DIRCKS:
It was not that way.
Rut we could 21 the information, but it was not that way.
Z2 CH AIRM AN AREARNE:
Do you have any kind of goal Z3 for when that draft will be out for public cc::ent?
24 MR. DIRCKS:
If it gets into inter-of fica review, 25 it would have to be in late September.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
No earlier?
2 MR. DIRCKS:
No earlier than late September.
3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I notice that a number of ?UCs 4
are beginning to move ahead in trying to address directly 5
the question of decommissioning costs.
I would not be 6
surprised if in another six months or eight mon th s, we would 7
begin to be viewed as the obstacle in trying to resolve some 8
of those issues.
9 MR. DIRCKS:
Ihe othes issue in here is that IPA 10 is responsible for developing some of the criteria for 11 residual radiation, and they have not done so.
Staff has 12 met with EPA and discussed where we are going, and we have 13 had some tentative agreement.
But we are proceeding at our 14 own risk because as you know that criteria can be changed 15 later.
16 Ihe next p'rogram is the international one.
You l'7 can go right on to the next slide.
18 This deals not only wi th the export-im;crt 19 licensing program.
It deals vita the IAEA agreements, and 20 you had some questions on that.
21 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I think the Commission signed 22 off on Part 75.
l Z3 MR. DIRCKS:
It is an administrative ty;e of 24 question tha t I had hoped we would have the answer by no w,
25 but I have not heard.
This cuts across all the office.
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1 NMSS has a number of people in regards to the ex; ort-import 2
licensing.
3 The next slide is the emergency preparedness, the 4
rulemaking action is basically down here now.
5 CH AIRM AN AHEARNE:
We have on the major issues 6
criteria being revised, and will be reissued.
Is that the 7
FEMA /NRC joint?
8 MR. DIRCKS:
Is that right, Kevin?
9 MR. CORNELL 4 One item which is not on this list, 10 the key memorandum of understanding related to emergency 11 response is running into some staff problem.
It is not an 12 issue yet, but it is in the WASH /
13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
We had asked FEMA to evaluate 14 the evacuation times around a list of plants.
15 MR. CORNELL:
That is righ t, about a half deren or 16 so.
17 CH AIRM AN AHEARNE:
We gave them a priority list, l
18 and I there are more like 12.
Do you have any sense on how 19 they are coming?
I thought that they were due back.
20 MR. CORNELL:
Not yet.
21 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Could you find out for me.
Z1 MR. CORNELL:
Yes.
I 23 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
I think that this may start l
24 becoming an issue because in a number of cases we have 25 responded to requests to examine the emergency plannin:
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around the plants, and part of our responsa has been, we 2
have asked FEMA to examine this.
3 MR. CORNELL:
Indian Point is an example.
4 CHAIRMAN AHEARNEs Yes.
5 I know that they ran into some problems getting 6
funds,.and contracting, and so forth.
But if you could give 7
me some sense.
8 What I would really like is to ask them for 9
som e thin g like 12 plants, and that th ey now begin ticking 10 off.
Then you will get this plant by this time 11 MR. CORNELL:
As I recall, there was a schedule 12 laid out.
13 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Right, but I think they missed 14 that.
15 MR. DIRCKS:
The next slide, please.
16 This is the operational data.
I'7 Why don't you go on to the next slide.
18 This is Michelson's office.
Basically, it is i
l 19 self -e stab lis h e d.
It is trying to work out how it fits into 20 the organiza tion.
I have issued a memorandum to the office 21 directors explaining the role of the office, and hcw ney Z1 should work with it.
Z3 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Ihe Nuclear Safety Infor:1 :i c r.
24 Center is vnat.
25 1R. DIRCKS:
No, that is the thin; at Cakrii;e.
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CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
'4 hen is his charter going to be 2
in place?
3 MR. DIRCKS:
I saw a draft of it about two weeks 4
ago.
5 MR. CORNELL:
My recollection is that the draft 6
needs considerable revision.
It needs a lot of work, and my 7
collection is that it is toward the end of Derember.
The 8
deadline that you put on it is January.
9 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
'n'e a r e b eg in nin g to get a 10 number of questions about it.
11 ER. DIRCKS:
Right.
12 I think the thing here th a t we ha ve to straigh ten 13 out is that this has been an on-going activity in many of 14 the offices.
This is a new office, and we are trying to 15 work out where it fits in.
16 As you can see there are lots of resources l'7 throughout the agency lef t in the offices to do this.
I 18 think the Commission did request us to go that way.
But I 19 don't think there any questien that the Commission vanted 20 Michelson to assume the primary role here.
j 21 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Right.
ZZ Ma. DIRCKS:
Like in everything else, it is v=ry 23 difficult to pin down resources devoted to this thing.
Me 24 has approached people, and if one set of numbers does not 25 please him, the office will come up with another set.
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One way to do this, and we dia not do it this year 2
but we will be doing it in the future, is to have budget 3
requests for this function to go through Michelson, for him 4
to really take the role of allocating resources.
That 5
would, I think, give that office a visibility and the 6
strength he needs to get the job done.
7 MR. CORNELL:
One of the other problems related to 8
that is that the exact definition of the Office of 9
Operational Data is kind of fuzzy in all of IEE.
10 ER. DIRCKS:
Yes.
11 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Yes.
12 MR. CORNELL:
That is why it is very difficult to 13 pin down, not because they are doing other things, but 14 because of which definition is used.
I think that needs to 15 be worked out.
16 CHAIRMAN AREARNE:
Yes.
One of the reasons to try I'7 Jo pin down his charter is to do that.
18 ER. DIRCKS:
The last item is the TMI action 19 plan.
Here at the beginning part of this was sketeny.
Ihis 3
is very sketchy because we are just beginning to tabulate 21 the items, putting then in sort of a format with which we 22 can do some tracking.
23
'4e have a few items listed here as complete by 24 June
'80, and we are not really sure what complete eans.
25 All we can do here is poin to the f act thi. we ara wo rk t.9 7 ALDERSON AEPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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on it more as a tentative computer program to do some 2
tracking.
There are 150 items on it in various states of 3
definition.
I 4
CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
That is really a very 5
substantial probles that you will have to think a lot more 6
about because the whole agency has said that our response to 7
Three Mile Island was an action plan.
The action plan was a 8
major effort to summarize all of these items that were 9
specifically linked to the accident, and were responsible 10 for the accident.
'ie o ugh t to have a pretty good way of 11 being able to tell whether or not, if we p,ut in all that 12 effort into giving th em direction.
13 Vic, are there any questions?
14 (Laughter.)
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I want to know what we are 16 doing about hydrogen control 17 Is this finished?
18 OHAIRMAN AREARNE:
Yes.
19 MR. DIRCKS:
First thing is, it is in the 20 rulemaking action. The second thing is, there were proposals 21
-down here on the inerting portion.
The third thing is, they 22 have identified hydrogen control.
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I know that they are devn 24 here, but where does that fit in with your trackin system.
25.
Is it one of those?
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3R. DIRCKS:
It is not one of these 19 program 2
areas, but it is certainly one that Harold and I have 3
id en tified, and we are tracking it.
It is not in this sort 4
of PPPG package, but it is a separate item that we are 5
watching, and it is applicable to a limited number of 6
plants.
All I can say is that we have it, but we don't have 7
all the data cn it.
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
'4 h a t distinguishes things 9
that are tracked?
10 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
The main thing that 11 distinguishes the 19 is that we, as a Commission, sat down 12 earlier this spring and reviewed a large list of items, and 13 ended up with, hera are the sets and subsets that will be 14 given this p'rominence f or tracking, and that is where the 19 15 case from.
16' MR. DIROKS:
It is not a major budget 17 cross-cutting issue.
It is a technical issue that is teinc 18 watched by Denton and myself.
19 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
These are resource allocation, 20 to a large axtent, that we are tracking.
21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
All right.
22 CHAIRJAN AHEARNE:
I think you are point out t h a t-Z3 there is some additional sort of silestone tracking systen 24 that is probably required, and that it is not always 25 restricted to the resources. But there are some items that ALDERSON REPORTING CCMPANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W.. WASHINGTON. 0.C. 20024 1202) 554-2345
h.
3.s 57 1
you want to keep track of.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSX!:
What concerns me about 3
this one, I don 't know how it is going to turn out.
Maybe t.
4 we have a fix, and it is all over, and okay, and so on.
But 5
if the problem turns out not to lead itself so easily to 6
fixes, then we are certainly talking about possibly major 7
resource allocations outside of the safety.
For that 8
reason, even if just the possibilty exists, it is something 9
that we want to get on, and get clear on as quickly as 10 possible because it could affect a faic number of major 11 facilities.
12 MR. DIRCKS:
I will go back and get a hold of 13 Harold, and see where the whole thing lies right now.
14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I am not criticiring 15 because it may well be that it is being followed closely, 16 and you are going what needs to be done.
But since it is l
l'7 not filed in the basic system that tracks the major iter.s 1
18 that the Conmission has picked out, I am concerned to 19 develop whether it is being followed closely.
20 MR. DISCKS:
Okay.
21 CHAIRMAN AHEARNE:
Any other questions.
22 I want to thank all of you who have otayed th ro u;h 23 this afternoon.
Ihese are the kinds of pieces of 24 info rm a tion system that I as sure ve share the belief that 25 they are still in rudimentary development, but with the ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W.. WASHINGTCN. O.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
58 1
continued effort th a t I am sure you will con tinue to be 2
placing on it in tae new inspired Commission which will 3
pla:e stronger emphasis upon management, this kind of system 4
wt11 serve you well.
5 The meeting is adjourned.
6 (Whereupon, at 4:05 p.m.,
the meeting was closed.)
7 8
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l ALDERSCN REPORTING COMP ANY, INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. 0.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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