ML19256B656
| ML19256B656 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 07/13/1979 |
| From: | Dunn B BABCOCK & WILCOX CO., PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ACCIDENT AT THREE MILE |
| To: | |
| References | |
| TASK-TF, TASK-TMR NUDOCS 7908160266 | |
| Download: ML19256B656 (18) | |
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! offices of organ, '. e w i s & 3 a c k i u s, 1300 !! 5:reet, N. '. :.,
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20036 on the 13tn cay of July, 1979, s.
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c o r..le n c i n g a t 1^:'.5 a.m.
b e f o r e s i.r.o r. 53nks,'r., 3 Notary
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Poot t
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MORGAN, L E '. ' I S & 30CKIUS, ESOS.
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Attorneys for 3 2 b c o c '< 1 '.li l c c x 1300 " Street, 3
Wasnington, D.C.
20036 i
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GEORGE L. EDGAR. ESC.
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of Counsel t
-and-JOHN G.
tiU L L I ,.E S Q.
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l use Counsel D
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70R THE COMMISSION.
57AfiLI Y fl. GO E ! ':S ON, ESQ.
Chief Counsel
'.'l i,7 H R O P A
.0 C :.W E L L, ES^
4xsociate Cnief Counsel t*
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-JAMES TRANKLIN NALTERS
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.JGEEPH JC:ift KELLY, JR.
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'he reccrc: Inculd re'iect that 2
we are resurinc tne depositicn c' 5er: Curr..in i c h was adjourned at 6: 45 p.m.
On July 2, 1979, by means of a tele-chone cor.ference call in the offices cf "crgan, Lewis &
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Sockius, in '.iashington, where Mr. Edgar, myself and the court ci s
l reporter and Mr. fiann are present, and on the other end, 7
offices in Lyncaburg, Virginia, at Babcock & Wilcox, where t
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i the appearances, as I understand it would De Mr. Dunn, as I
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the deponent, John "uilin, as ccunsel.
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tol And, John, is there anyone else present in the l
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1 M R. M L' L L I.'; 5 :
Right now we also have Mr. al te r and Mr. v.elly.
I "R
R O : X '..' E L L.
'jould the court reporter please t
incicate tnat they are present in the appearances at the begirning of the deposition.
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"l fir. EDGAR:
Off the record.
M I
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(Discussion off the record.)
I t
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I it R. ROCLWELL:
If f'r.
Kelly and Mr. Walters are g
i still in the room we will note their appea rances.
g Whereupon, I
20 i
BERT M. DUtiff i
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h having been previously sworn, resumed the stand and testified l
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1881 004 i
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1 By Mr. Rockwell-e I
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". D u n.n,
.e are ca:: 0.c the reccrd, t
!# y0u : a n r. 0 : near y ;;csticq ;1 ease say ;c l
l immediately so that I can reoeat it.
Ec cau;e we are usinc Sceaker l
phones, it is imperative that I finish my question fully before you begin to res:cnc, and in turn, ! will try to let you finish so we do not get crossed on the speaker phone.
I Mr. Dunn, you a re awa re tha t you are _still under I
' ; cath, correct?
a!
A.
Yes, Sir.
D iD D
to Q.
Mr. Dunn, we were. advised by Mr. Kelly during his i de pos i t i o n, tha t you we n t to Da v i s ne s.se i n.the days immedi-1,.,
t
' ately following the Da vi s Bes se -trans ien t of September-2a, u!
1977, then "eturned to i.ynchburg and he l d a b r i e-f i n g in the cafeteric in wnicn you were im a-t-t e n c a n c e.
30 you recal l a ttendi ng that b r i.e f i-n g ?
'I -di-dn ' t reca l l.the.b ri efi ng a -f ew -days a go, but A.
N I hate reviewed Mr. Ke l l y 's :tes.t i mo ny, and I.believe I do recall tnat : briefing at -thi.s t irne a s -to my :be i n g p re s e n t.
I I dont recall deta il s duri ng -the -bri e fing.
~Q.
.Co you r.eca l l having a discussion with fir. Kelly
'foll.owing that :bri-efing -in which you raised with him the 21 l conce rns :tha t we re _u ttir.t'ately.e xpres sed in his November 1, 21 197 7 me mo r_a n d um ? a n d in your -two -Feb rua ry, 19 73 -memo ra nda ?
i
~~..,i A.
No,. I:do not.specifically recall -having.tha t l: di sm s t o n..I,would cat:dcu't-tbat it:qqcurMd,:but I:do-not t
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"-- 0; t so e 00 int joa nave already 13ld J3 t you arrived at the ccnclusion that the Davis Besse transient raised the possibili ty Of o pe ra to r error to the extent of premature termination cf nigh pressure in;ecti:n e
How did you cone to that conclusicn?
'la s it a I
flash of insignt?
Dic somebody tell you tnat?
'a h a t was the
', intellectual process by which you reached that conclusion?
i.
A.
I believe ! should say that it was more a matter 3, ' of just identifying the fact that the high pressure injection I had been terminated in conjunction with enough research to identify the additional fact that the reactor coolant system 1.
was not in a solid conf-:guration at the time hich pressure 6
injection was terminated and in that mode, I would always
'; consider
.t unwise tc terminate h.igh pressure injections.
So rather than an intellectual stroke of genius, it is mere recognition of those two f acts within the body of the data and m
- nen recognizing that on: of all of our experience with LOCA analysis, that could rot be shown in a cositive nanner to be a safe action,
- s Q.
Did you know that the termination of HPI in the l Davis Besse September 24th transient, was ini tia ted by the
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operator because the operator was watching pressurizer level' 22 In other words, di d you have speci fic knowledge 1
23{ that tne termination of'HP: had been initiated based uoon t
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. reco:nized t at wha - fel;..as a p rema t a re t e mi r.2 :i c n of high cressure infection had occurred,
'nca.e n e t h e r I ha: the reason for that tarmination I do not j
avallable to me.
I would say th a t even tod3y, it may be l
unclear as to whether the reason for termination has been specifically cocumented and proven to me or whether I had inferred
^
it was from, I and other people have inferred it was from t
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high pressurizer level.
It dicn't seen to make sense that 9
to that was the reason.
i Q.
Do you recall whether, in the time period start-
- j I
ing when you first heard about the September 24, 1977, Davis Besse transient, up t0 t h e t i m e o f '4 r. Kelly's "ovember 1 f
I memorandum, that you talked to anyone else other than Mr. Kelly with respect to the reasons that the o?erators may have had in nind for terminating HPI as they had done in that M
Davis Besse transient?
i A.
I would say probably.
j i
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Q.
Do jou kn0w who?
A.
As I tes-ified earlier, I believe that very soon g
after the Septemoer 2ath transient -- is that the correct dat
('( )
i Q.
Yes it is.
21 !
I had a discussion with Den A.
(continuing) j 22 Hallman throuah his door.
By that, I mean I was standing i
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, in his doorway.
I don't believe I was sitting in his office.
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- al c probab'j ciscussed it with Eric Swansen, and I acuic Delieve that tne sub;ect of wny, nay na'.e ccre up in one of those two ciscussions, Q.
Do you recall what soecifically wnat wou,d have i
been ciscussed with respect to tne question why the operators did wnat did at Davis Besse?
i A.
- 4 0, sir, : do not.
O.
Anyone else besides Hallnan and Swanson?
A.
I wouldn't disallow the possibility, but I can't i
m give you names that are more than speculative.
0.
Do you know why you went to Hallman and Swanson?
A.
Hallnan, I believe, because he was involved in nuclear service and knew a let about, or would have been my i'
/
inpression that ne would have v.nown a lot about operations
- 4 ; and why things were operating, and I also got the impression t.,lInat he could communicate wit: the customers arj had respon-M sibility for following through on the accident.
I don't 17 ' know that that is exactly right.
I think that may be my I
i-I impression at the time.
i g
i Swanson, because he is in integration, knows g
a lot tbout system design and is a personal f riend o f mi.ie
,t with wnom I would discuss man;. issues.
4 11 Q.
!i r. Dunn, you may recall that Kelly, in his
~
levember memorandum, referred to a transient which occurred 2"
on Octooer 23rd at Davis Besse.
30 -v c u, recall that?
=
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L881 008 f
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A.
I cen't recall nin refer-1ng to
- in nis 4
i ttstimony
- iind of skin read his testincnv I wocidn't say that he didn't refer to it.
I'm not faniliar v.ith the fact that ne has, et times, made reference to tnat transient, I guess 6
'iha t is your understanding of the significance Q.
of the October 23, 1977 transient at Davis Besse witn respect to the concerns that viere raised by Mr. Kelly in his 'iovember f
1 memorandum and the concerns raised by you in your two 9
February 1973 memoranda?
l 1
A.
My understanding that chat accident orompted the g
November 1 memorandum in that, in that accident there was again 3,
as we view it premature terminaticn of hicn Dressa-e.
MR. ROCKWELL:
For tne record, we nave a telephone ringing here and we are going to'have to wait until it is answered to continue.
9 D
"3 3!
Mi Off the record.'
E cN ctr.. tne record.3j (Discussicn 3l MR. ROCKWELL:
Okay, back on the record.
i
{
ti r. Edgar has returned to the rocms Sv Mr. Rockwell:
t O.
Mr. Dunn, do you know, other than the fact that 2:
the October 23rd transient involved a premature termination i
of HP!,
do you know wnat other signi ficant events took place
.,3 ;i in that transient that may relate to the general concerns of F881 009-l 1
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I) l O ne No,'emDe r Cain trantient
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I do not k n c,< nnether tnare,.as a #;ilure to ocen l
P O R'! in that t e c n s i e r. t.
- t occurs that there.;a3.
I did not a
ii detail an examination of that transient, nor a process of ei what I would ter,m an evaluation of it.
At this point in tine i
! 20 very unclear as to the circumstances surrcunding or i
evolving during tnat transient.
{
Q.
D3 you know whether in the October 23rd transient m! p re s s u ri::er level was high with reactor coolant inventory t
iI low?
A.
tro, I t o n o t.
m O.
Mr. Dumn, directing your attentien to r e.
uary n
' of 157S, Et tha Time were you aware of a procedure within
- 4 ! S' );oc k 3 'ti ltox.,.wh'i ch is known as tne preliminary safety
.., ' c o n c e rn yrr#cet un :amd a f o rm w h i c h is kno'in as a preliminary safety toncarn report or form?
i A.
Yes, I ms aware of that at that time.
i 4
'Ja s you r :e b r u a ry 9 me mo r a n c u n a n d y o u r February
- s i
i 10 mem0rendum, 'nt crL13d to put your :cncerns int that pre-g r
1imi na ry :55fety Zon~ce en procedure?
.'o i
-A.
'rtJs :the -fi rs t wo rd i n the question, the word i
n,,33 na
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'Tha t i s ::cerec t.
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no, tthat memo wa s rio t intended to put my concernr i
?
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2 in the preliminary s3+ety ccncern procecare.
Q.
Cic you k r. C 'a
- a. *.n3t e +nat Mr.
'3ylCr, in the i
licensinn section, was the an wh0 acmi ni s tered that pr0cedure in-house?
i A.
Yes, sir, : was a'/are of that, r,
Q.
'la s the reason that you addressed your remorancun to Mr. Taylce, bcth jour February 9 and your February 16 memc-ranca, to put before hin your concerns in an ef fort to determine 9
whether they snould.:e nandled within the procedure for i
m handling prelimana ry safety concerns?
A.
.0, I woulc say that was not my reason.
'In a t v;as your reason?
G.
A.
My reason was tnat Mr. Taylor was a highly l
influential person, in my view, interested in the safety of the plant and capable of causing a form Of discussion to be
' l initiated surrounding my concerns.
1 I f' - l Q.
Why didn't you put your memcrandum onto a safety, i
1-l a preliminary safety concern form?
j l
u; A.
I think i t s. o u l e, be best cha racteri zed in saying that I
t
! I felt that the concerns could be handled in the manner that w!
I did pursue it, successfully, and that a preliminary safety in
[ concern procedure would not be recui red unless the memo route '
21 and the resultant interaction from the memo did not croduce
~~..,
i results acceptable to me.
V Q.
'dould it be fair to say.th,at at the: time you 1881 011 a
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wrote your Fe:ruary memoranda, Fe rua y 1972 me.cranda, /cu were aware of tre oreld-inary safety concern ; ::edure, jou I
we re aware that 't r. Taylor administerec that procedure and that g'ven your knowledge at tnat time jou c uld have availed yourself of ' hat procedure had you wished?
6 r,
l A.
Yes, i t would be f air to say that.
O.
Directing your attention r.o'..
to the time period
,.r.
.., l. e r s between -ebruary 10, l,a,ic, and r,.ugust ;, of-,-,
.u/c, n
has indicated that the #inal prescription, as you have used the term, or another way of putting it is the oro?osed
- erator instruct'ons contained in your February '.5tn memo ra n d um,
were not yet #ully agreeable to him and he has also inci;ated in his cecosition nat there was contiruing discussion between 4
cersons uncer his control.
I believe one of them may have 14 been a man named Goslow.
n!
Do you recall any continuing discussion with any-M, one regarding the adequacy of your prescription following i
i the issuance of your February 15th memorancum?
A.
I do not recall any.
And I celieve I probably p
3 would recall them if they occurred with me.
g Q.
D i d
.'t r. Walters or did anyone ever advise you
~ s af ter you wrote and distributed your February 15th memorandum, 2:
that they were not yet sati sfied wi th the instructions o
ooerators outlined in that memorancum?
i l
A.
Would you cuantify the tipe perice. you are askinc l
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1-One question over' 0.
Yes.
We are addressing.nis tc the tine ;eriod t
l between ebruary 16, 1973, and August ~, 1973.
i I
A.
y reccliettion, the ans.cer to tne question would be no.
s O.
Okay.
Tne same cuestion, but directed to t ie time period. August 3, 1973, to March 22, 1979' A.
Other than the fact that I was on distribution for the Den "a'.inan memo, and in relationship cr qualified p,
by the testimony I gave earlier, I do not recall any communi-I i
C3 tion.
i C.
In your tes timcny ea rlier, if I recall it cor-rectly, was tnat you were en the distributicr.
0r the Hallma-i memorancum in the sense that your name a pears there, but la you do not recall seeing it until after the accident at TMI2.
l Is that correct?
i N
A.
That is correct.
- -l Q.
It is now 13 minutes cf 11 and understand, l
gl Mr. Dunn, that you wisn to leave to accom;any y0ur wife to t
a doctor's appointment.
I do have some more questions, but in deference to your own personal concerns, we can stoo at
.i
.i this oint 1g you wish.
A.
Could you handle the questions in five miqutes?
'~
Q.
Sure.
Let me proceed for an additional five
', minutes.
1881 013 I
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0 Se#cre tre accident at ~"':,,ad EC:E analysis l
One any small Creak LCCA an3lyS'5 fCr : #a'l-to-cDe9 E 2 R '! ?
A.
Let me receat the cuestien to b2 su e I have cot i: richt.
Eefere the TMI2 transient, on 'ta rch 23, 1979, I
nad ECCS perf;r.ac any evaluations or simulations o# a stuck-c en ? O R 's accicent?
O.
That i s correct.
9 A.
We had ;er"rrec evaluations to the extent to ! that we nad convinced ourselves that tnat accident would be bounded by cther accidents for which we ?rcvide conputer 1.,
simulation.
'!e had not soecifically performed com0 uter simulation of tne stuck-c en P O R 'l as an accident.
l Q.
Would you-ans.ver be the same with respect to a u
fail-to-open code safety release ~ valve in tne pressurizer?
n' A.
With respect to a f ail-to-ccen release valve in the pressurl:er as tne instiga ting event, m.y answer would 1
be the sane.
i Q.
'loul d yo u r answer be the same with respect to t
g<
any small break LCCA within the pressuri:er's face?
- s,
A.
Under tne consideration that such 3 small break
_.i LOCA was tne instigating event, my answer would be the same.
Q.
Had you played any role in the development of i
HP: policy, and by that I mean prc.edures for coerators to
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follow as to wnen. a erminate HPI, up to the time of March 23, Yk 1881 0i4 we ee-e ese em 4m e
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] _ Mt m
i As
- c.,
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e l l, I excect a large part c# my work or my A.
associate's work vas utili:ec to some degree in the procedures concerning the nign nressure injecticn syster We did not pl ay, I beliese, a ny direct role, and I do r.ot recall playinc any di rect role, relative'to high pressure injection termination.
O.
Was the analysis which you have referred to a mcment ago, ahich you 'elieve bounded small breaks in the m! pressurizer, also have accounted for cr abounded the additional' fact of loss of all feed?
A.
Excuse me.
I missed the last part of your Question.
Q.
I will restate it.
- 4 Would the analyses which you had referred to a U
moment ago, which bounded creaks in the pressurizer, also have
.all t
accounted for, namely would they have also abounded n
breaks in the pressuriter in conjunction witn a loss of all feed, namely main feed and aux feed?
A.
No, it was a standard assumotion within the emergency core cooling analyses that auxiliary feed water would be available during the loss or coolant acciden'.
n.
O.
Would it be a fair statement of your coin',cn tnat you did not feel tha' :ne itichaelson analysis taught you any-2i I thing new?
41881 015
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1 Iqank you fo-takinc the time anc ceing 'ti:n us (Whereupon, *he deposition,;as concluded at
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I further c e r t i f.y that the testi ony herein con-stitutes an accurate record of the Orcceedings had.
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