ML18036A031
| ML18036A031 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 01/31/2018 |
| From: | Lois James Division of Materials and License Renewal, NRC/NRR/DMLR/MRPB |
| To: | |
| Lois James, 301-415-3306 | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML18044A508 | List: |
| References | |
| LTR-17-0341-1, NRC-3496 | |
| Download: ML18036A031 (58) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
10 CFR 2.206 Petition Review Board re:
Petition Dated September 13, 2017 Docket Number:
N/A Location:
Telephonic Date:
January 31, 2018 Work Order No.:
NRC-3496 Pages 1-57 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
1 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
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10 CFR 2.206 PETITION REVIEW BOARD (PRB)
CONFERENCE CALL RE PETITION DATED SEPTEMBER 13, 2017 FOR ALL RENEWED REACTOR OPERATING LICENSEES AND APPLICANTS FOR REACTOR RENEWED OPERATING LICENSES
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WEDNESDAY JANUARY 31, 2018
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The conference call was held, Joseph Donoghue, Chairperson of the Petition Review Board, presiding.
PETITIONER: SAMUEL MIRANDA
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 PETITION REVIEW BOARD MEMBERS:
JOSEPH DONOGHUE, Deputy Director, Division of Materials and License Renewal LOIS JAMES, Petition Manager for 2.206 Petition MARCIA SIMON, Senior Attorney, Office of General Counsel ERIC OESTERLE, Branch Chief, Division of Materials and License Renewals, License Renewal Projects Branch DAVID JONES, Office of Enforcement JERRY DOZIER, Senior Risk Analyst, Division of Risk Assessment; Radiation Protection and Consequences Branch NRC HEADQUARTERS STAFF:
MERRILEE BANIC, Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation ROBERT BEATON, Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation DOUGLAS BROADDUS, Branch Chief, NRR CRIS BROWN, Facilitator KENNETH CLAIR, Office of the Inspector General MEG GOLD, Facilitator ALSO PRESENT:
3 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 JAN BOUDART, Nuclear Energy Information Service JESSIE COLLINS C O N T E N T S
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Page Opening Remarks and Introduction...................5 Discussion of Position Under Consideration........12 Petitioner Addresses PRB..........................17 Questions from NRC for Petitioner.................37 Public Questions/Comments Regarding 2.206 Process...............................47 Closing Remarks...................................52 Adjourn...........................................56
5 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 P R O C E E D I N G S 1
3:11 p.m.
2 MS. BROWN: All right. Good afternoon 3
everyone. I appreciate your patience. Welcome to 4
the January 31, 2018 Petition Review Board meeting 5
with the Petitioner, Mr. Samuel Miranda.
6 I'd like to thank everybody for attending 7
today. My name is Cris Brown. And with me is Meg 8
Gold. We are the co-facilitators for today's 9
meeting.
10 Our role is to ensure that today's 11 meeting is informative and productive. And we'll do 12 our best to make sure that everyone who wants to 13 participate, has a chance to express their views 14 without concern as to how those views will be 15 received.
16 We appreciate your assistance in 17 accomplishing this goal.
18 As a brief safety message for those of us 19 in the room, in the event of an emergency, please 20 exist to the doors behind us. And proceed as 21 directed by NRC staff.
22 The purpose of this meeting is for 23 Petitioner, Mr. Samuel Miranda, to address the 24 Petition Review Board, or PRB, regarding the PRB's 25
6 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 initial recommendation to deny the September 13, 2017 1
petition, whether license renewal reviews address a 2
potential increase in the frequency of infrequent 3
incidents by 50 percent as a result to the extension 4
of the operating lifetime by 20 years, i.e., 50 5
percent.
6 In order words, the petition states that 7
a license renewal will significantly increase the 8
probability of a previously evaluated condition III 9
accident.
10 This meeting is scheduled from 3:12 to 11 4:12 p.m. Eastern time. It is being recorded by the 12 NRC Operations Center.
13 And it's being transcribed by a court 14 reporter. We've already confirmed that the court 15 reporter is on the line.
16 And the transcript will become a
17 supplement to the petition. The transcript will also 18 be made publically available. Prior to placing the 19 transcript in ADAMS, the PRB will review it to ensure 20 that it does not contain any allegations or sensitive 21 information.
22 To get a good transcript and to minimize 23 distractions, we ask that you turn off or mute any 24 device that rings, buzzes, beeps, or alarms. If you 25
7 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 must answer any emergency call, we ask that you exit 1
the room before answering.
2 For those dialing into the meeting, 3
please remember to mute your phone. If you do not 4
have a mute button, this can be done by pressing the 5
key star six. And to unmute, press the star six key 6
again.
7 I'd like to emphasize that we each need 8
to speak clearly and loudly. And to make sure that 9
the court reporter can accurately transcribe this 10 meeting.
11 If you do have something that you would 12 like to say, please state your name for the record.
13 We also ask that you minimize any side conversations 14 during the meeting. We'll try to have only one 15 speaker at a time.
16 Now I'd like to have the NRC participants 17 introduce themselves. I ask all of you to clearly 18 state for the record, your name, your position, and 19 your organization.
20 For those here in the room, please speak 21 up so that those on the phone can hear. And that the 22 court reporter can accurately record your name.
23 I'll start with myself and the other NRC 24 participants in the room. So again, my name is Cris 25
8 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Brown. And I am one of the facilitators of this 1
meeting.
2 MS. GOLD: My name is Meg Gold. Also 3
with the NRC.
4 MR. DOZIER: I'm Jerry Dozier from the 5
Division of Risk Assessment.
6 MR. OESTERLE: Eric Oesterle, Chief of 7
the Licensing Projects Branch in the Division of 8
Materials and License Renewal, the Office of Nuclear 9
Reactor Regulation.
10 MR. BEATON: Robert Beaton, Reactor 11 Systems Branch.
12 MS. BANIC: Merrilee Banic, Office of 13 Nuclear Reactor Regulations.
14 MR. BROADDUS: Doug Broaddus, I'm the 15 Branch Chief in NRR's Division of Operation Reactor 16 Licensing.
17 MS. SIMON: Marcia Simon, I'm a Senior 18 Attorney in the Office of General Counsel.
19 MR. DONOGHUE: I'm Joe Donoghue, I'm the 20 Chair of the Petition Review Board for this Petition.
21 MS.
JAMES:
Lois
- James, Petition 22 Manager.
23 MS. BROWN: All right. Thank you.
24 MR. CLAIR: Ken Clair, Office of the 25
9 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Inspector General as well.
1 2
MS. BROWN: Thank you. Thank you. Are 3
there any other participants from Headquarters on the 4
phone besides Ken?
5 (No response) 6 MS. BROWN: Are there any participants 7
from the Regional Offices on the phone?
8 (No response) 9 MS. BROWN: Okay. In view of the 10 potential number of licensees on the phone, instead 11 of each of you introducing yourselves, I'd like for 12 each of you to email your name, position, and 13 organization to Lois James, the Petition Manager.
14 And likewise for the public, it's not 15 required for members of the public to introduce 16 themselves. But if there are any on the phone that 17 wish to do so, email your name, position, and 18 organization to the Petitioner Manager, Lois James.
19 And she can be reached at 20 Lois.James@NRC.gov. That's L-O-I-S.J-A-M-E-S at 21 NRC.gov.
22 And finally, Mr. Miranda, will you 23 introduce yourself?
24 MR. MIRANDA: My name is Samuel Miranda.
25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 And I'm the Petitioner, member of the public.
1 MS. BROWN: Thank you. Before we begin, 2
I'd like to share some general background on our 3
processes.
4 Section 2.206 of the Title 10 of the Code 5
of Federal Regulations describes the petition 6
process. The primary mechanism for the public to 7
request enforcement action by the NRC in a public 8
process.
9 This process permits anyone to petition 10 the NRC to take enforcement actions related to NRC 11 licensees or licensed activities.
12 Depending on the results of its 13 evaluation, the NRC could modify, suspend, or revoke 14 an NRC issued license, or take any other appropriate 15 enforcement actions to resolve a problem.
16 The NRC's staff guidance for the 17 disposition of 2.206 petition requests is in 18 Management Directive 8.11, which is publically 19 available.
20 The purpose of today's meeting is to give 21 the Petitioner an opportunity to provide a response 22 to the PRB's initial recommendation regarding the 23 September 13, 2017 Petition. This meeting is not a 24 hearing.
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Nor is it an opportunity for the 1
Petitioner, licensees, or members of the public to 2
question or examine the PRB on the merits or the 3
issues presented in the petition request. No 4
decisions regarding the merits of this petition will 5
be made at this meeting.
6 Following this meeting, the PRB will 7
conduct follow up internal deliberations. The 8
outcome of this internal meeting will be discussed 9
with the dist -- the Petitioner, sorry, and 10 documented in a response letter.
11 The Petition Review Board typically 12 consists of a Chairman, usually a manager at the 13 Senior Executive Service Level at the NRC. The Board 14 also has a petition manager and a petition review 15 board coordinator.
16 Other members of the Board are determined 17 by the NRC staff based on the content of the 18 information in the petition request. The members of 19 the Board have already introduced themselves.
20 As described in our process, the NRC 21 staff may ask clarifying questions to better 22 understand the Petitioner's presentation and to reach 23 a reasoned decision whether to accept or reject the 24 Petitioner's request for review under the 2.206 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 process.
1 Also as described in our process, the 2
licensees have been invited to participate in today's 3
meeting to ensure that they understand the concerns 4
about their facility or activities.
5 While the licensees may also ask 6
questions to clarify the issues raised by the 7
Petitioner, I want to stress, the licensees are not 8
part of the PRB's decision making process. Licensees 9
will have the opportunity to ask the Petitioner 10 questions after his presentation.
11 And then finally, members of the public 12 will have an opportunity to provide comments 13 regarding the petition, and ask the Petition Review 14 Board questions about the 2.206 process.
15 I'd like to now turn the meeting over to 16 Joseph Donoghue, the Chair of the Board, who will 17 discuss the specific position under consideration.
18 Joe.
19 MR. DONOGHUE: Thank you. Welcome Sam.
20 Welcome everybody here in the room and on the phone.
21 I would like to begin by summarizing the 22 Board's understanding of the scope of the Petition 23 under consideration. And the NRC activity to date.
24 On September 13,
- 2017, Petitioner 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 requested the NRC to suspend -- to one, suspend 1
licensees' authorizations to operate their plants for 2
any period beyond their originally licensed plants' 3
lifetimes until they can demonstrate that their 4
license renewals are not causing significant increase 5
in the probability of an accident previously 6
evaluated. Particularly with respect to Condition 7
III events.
8 Number
- two, suspend the review of 9
licensees' applications for authorization to operate 10 their plants for any period beyond their original 11 licensed lifetime, until they can demonstrate that 12 their license renewals will not cause a significant 13 increase in the possibility of an accident previously 14 evaluated. Particularly with respect to Condition 15 III events.
16 And number three, allow licensees who are 17 already operating a plant at their originally 18 licensed plant lifetime, a maximum of one year from 19 the date of the Petition to submit a plan and 20 schedule that produce a verifiable demonstration that 21 continued operation of their plant will not cause a 22 significant increase in probability of an accident 23 previously evaluated. Particularly with respect to 24 Condition III events.
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 The Petitioner requested these actions 1
based on the statement, and I quote, "an extension of 2
the operating lifetime by 20 years, that is 50 3
percent, will cause a --
4 MS. BROWN: For those of you on the 5
phone, can I ask that you mute your line, please?
6 UNKNOWN: That we do -- I'm sorry, that 7
we do what?
8 MS. BROWN: Can you mute your phone for 9
us, please.
10 UNKNOWN: Mute it. Oh, sure.
11 MS. BROWN: Thanks.
12 COURT REPORTER: Hi. Sorry, this is the 13 Court Reporter. If I could just interrupt. Mr.
14 Donoghue, if you could get any closer to the phone, 15 that would be great.
16 I am just having a little trouble hearing 17 you.
18 MR. DONOGHUE: Okay. Thank you. All 19 right. I'll start that last statement again.
20 The Petitioner requested these actions 21 based on a statement, "an extension of the operating 22 lifetime by 20 years, that is by 50 percent, will 23 cause an increase in the frequency of infrequent 24 incidents by 50 percent."
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 In other words, if a license renewal will 1
significantly increase the probability of a
2 previously evaluated Condition III accident.
3 Consequently, an applicant for a license renewal 4
cannot truthfully claim that there is no significant 5
hazard associated with the proposed license renewal.
6 Petitioner defines no significant hazard 7
in accordance with 10 CFR Section 50.92, issuance of 8
an amendment, which specifies that a proposed license 9
amendment would not pose a significant hazard if 10 operation of the facility in accordance with the 11 proposed amendment would not involve a significant 12 increase in the probability of an accident previously 13 evaluated.
14 On October 5, 2017, the Petition Manager, 15 that's Lois James, offered the Petitioner an 16 opportunity to address the Petition Review Board 17 prior to its internal meeting to make the initial 18 recommendation to accept or reject the Petition for 19 review.
20 On October 10, the Petitioner stated he 21 wanted to address the PRB at a public meeting. On 22 November 17, 2017, the PRB held that meeting with Mr.
23 Miranda, the Petitioner, to hear directly from him, 24 his concerns and thoughts, and any additional 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 information regarding the Petition.
1 The discussion was documented in a 2
meeting summary with the Petitioner's slides and the 3
transcript attached. And that's in ADAMS accession 4
number ML17331A285.
5 On December 5 the PRB met internally to 6
discuss the Petition and the information provided by 7
the Petitioner during the November 17 public meeting.
8 And the criteria for reviewing petitions under 10 CFR 9
2.206.
10 The outcome of this meeting was an 11 initial recommendation regarding the Petition. And 12 the recommendation is that the Petition does not meet 13 the criteria for consideration under 10 CFR 2.206, 14 because the issues raised are not fact or constitute 15 the basis for taking the enforcement action specified 16 or that warrant further inquiry.
17 On January 3, 2018, the Petition Manager 18 informed the Petitioner of the PRB's initial 19 recommended decision. At that time the Petitioner 20 requested the opportunity to provide additional 21 information to the PRB at a public meeting, which is 22 the purpose of today's meeting.
23 As a reminder for the phone participants, 24 please identify yourself if you make any remarks. As 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 this will help us in the preparation of the meeting 1
transcript that will be made publically available.
2 Since this is a public meeting, I would 3
like to remind the PRB members, the licensees, and 4
the Petitioner and any other meeting participants of 5
the need to refrain from discussing any NRC sensitive 6
or proprietary information during today's meeting.
7 Mr. Miranda, I will turn it over to you 8
to allow you the opportunity to provide any 9
information you believe the PRB should consider.
10 Since we started late, the meeting will last until 11 4:12.
12 I ask you to keep your remarks to no more 13 than 30 minutes to allow the other participants the 14 opportunity to ask questions about your remarks 15 during our meeting.
16 I'll help keep time along with the 17 facilitators. And when you have five minutes or so, 18 we'll let you know.
19 All right?
20 MR. MIRANDA: Okay.
21 MR. DONOGHUE: Well, Mr. Miranda, your 22 presentation.
23 MR. MIRANDA: Let's start with the 24 questions asked. What the basis was for not 25
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 accepting this Petition.
1 I did get an email from Ms. Lois James 2
that referred for example to ANS Standard N18.2 3
having been withdrawn. Is that one of your basis?
4 MR. DONOGHUE: Yes. It's not part of 5
the requirements in the Regulations. And it has been 6
withdrawn.
7 MR. MIRANDA: What does that mean?
8 MR. DONOGHUE: Well, it was withdrawn by 9
the ANS if I understand.
10 MR. MIRANDA: Yes. What does that mean?
11 MR. DONOGHUE: Okay. ANS no longer 12 considers that a standard that they --
13 MR. MIRANDA: Yes. What -- why did the 14 ANS withdraw that standard?
15 MR. DONOGHUE: I'm not sure why. But 16 that may have updated it. It may be they use another 17 standard.
18 MR. MIRANDA: Well, when I started my 19 career in 1970, I was working my first supervisor at 20 Westinghouse, was a member of the standards committee 21 for ANS 18.2. And that was issued in 1973.
22 It was superseded in 1983 by ANS 51.1.
23 And it's the ANS policy to withdraw a standard if 24 it's not revised within ten years.
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 So that's why it was withdrawn.
1 MR. DONOGHUE: Okay.
2 MR. MIRANDA: ANS 51.1, same policy. So 3
that's probably been withdrawn as well.
4 However, all of this is irrelevant 5
because the licensees have performed accident 6
analysis for Chapter 15 of their FSARs based upon the 7
categories of events and the accepted criteria that 8
are specified in ANS 18.2.
9 So whether there is a standard in 10 existence, or if it ever was in existence or if it 11 was withdrawn, is not relevant. Because it's in the 12 licensing basis because the licensees put it there.
13 The NRC staff reviewed it. And issued 14 the licenses based on that. So if you were to 15 withdraw the standard and say that it's not in the 16 Regulations, then these licensees have no license.
17 So, I would ask you, should I be filing 18 another Petition asking for every plant in the U.S.
19 to have their license suspended because they have no 20 licensing basis?
21 MR. DONOGHUE: No. Let's talk about the 22 basis for our initial recommendation. There were two 23 things that we focused on in our discussion.
24 First was the connection you made of Part 25
20 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 50 to a Part 54 license renewal action. And we have 1
legal representative here as part of the PRB.
2 But, my understanding is that the most 3
significant hazard statement in Part 50 was not part 4
of the consideration of Part 54 action. That was one 5
point.
6 Another point was that when considering 7
license renewals, one of the principals of license 8
renewals that we apply when we're doing those reviews 9
is approving renewed licenses, is that the management 10 programs at the plants and their systems are going to 11 maintain its current licensing basis at the plant.
12 So, that concludes the, what you just 13 recited, Chapter 15 analyses. So, any information 14 to review that had to be supplied by licensees in 15 their applications, and supplemented as needed by 16 their programs on proving that system.
17 MR. MIRANDA: Well, I would point out 18 that 10 CFR 54, which governs license renewal 19 applications, the first thing it says and the first 20 thing it does is define the current licensing basis, 21 CLB. Current licensing basis.
22 And among the 10 CFR parts in the current 23 licensing basis is Part 50. So, 10 CFR 50.92 is part 24 of 10 CFR 50.
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21 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 So it's in the current licensing basis.
1 And I used to do -- I used to do, when I was working 2
at the NRC, one of my responsibilities was to review 3
4 And I was concerned at that time, and I'm 5
sure you are too still at this time, with aging 6
management. And which is a rather narrow-minded 7
approach to license renewals where you attempt to 8
find every component in the plant and determine 9
whether or not it can be affected by aging.
10 And for example, rubber gaskets and seals 11 get replaced and so on. But that is only part of the 12 license renewal, because 10 CFR 54, which pays so 13 much attention to continuing the current licensing 14 basis, there are two principals of license renewal 15 expressed in 10 CFR 54.
16 And, I think they both -- they both go to 17 the point that if you extend the operating span of a 18 plant, which has a design life of 40 years, if you 19 extend it to 60 years, and now they're talking about 20 80 years, the objective is to have that plant, in 21 order to protect the public health and safety, which 22 is your responsibility, in order to do that, this 23 plant operating in the 60th year of its lifetime has 24 to be just as safe as it was in its first year.
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Part of that is aging management. But 1
there's a lot more to it. And one of those things 2
that I think the NRC has neglected in issuing, what, 3
more than 80 license renewals now?
4 One of the things they've got -- the NRC 5
has neglected, is the original current licensing 6
basis. Which is the definition of Condition III 7
events as expressed in ANS N18.2.
8 Condition III events are not to occur 9
during the lifetime of a plant. Maybe one or two.
10 At most one or two. They do occur.
11 Three Mile Island was a Condition III 12 event. They do occur. But no more than about one 13 or two times in the lifetime of a plant.
14 That's a 40-year span. Now it's a 60-15 year span. So, you can expect to have more Condition 16 III events occurring during the extended life span.
17 In fact if you go to subsequent license 18 renewal of 80 years, you can expect the incidents of 19 Condition III events to double.
20 Let me give you an example of a Condition 21 III event. In 1974, five years before Three Mile 22 Island, there was a plant in Switzerland, Beznau 23 Units 1 and 2. B-E-Z-N-A-U, Beznau, is a small 24 Westinghouse designed plant in Switzerland.
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(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 One of these plants had a turbine trip.
1 It so happens that it's a two turbine plant, so if 2
one of the turbines trip, it amounts to the equivalent 3
of a 50 percent reduction in load.
4 This should not be a problem. This would 5
be a Condition II event. It should not even cause a 6
7 But in this case it did. It caused a 8
reactor trip because the steam dump system was not 9
operating.
10 A reactor trip is also not a serious 11 event. In this case the reactor trip would allow the 12 operators to diagnose the problem and fix the 13 turbine. And then resume operation.
14 However, -- however, since there was a 15 reactor trip and there was no steam dumping available 16 to take care of the steam generated by the reactor, 17 the pressure went up.
18 And it went up high enough to open -- to 19 pressurize the power operated relief valves. This 20 is also normal. That should not be a serious event.
21 However, one of those valves and then 22 failed to reseat. It was stuck open. Now that's a 23 problem.
24 The operators at Beznau recognized the 25
24 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 event. And they dealt with it. They isolated the 1
power operator relief valve and they fixed it. And 2
they resumed operation.
3 It turns out that power operated relief 4
valve was broken. It was a design problem.
5 I was working at Westinghouse at the 6
time. I was not involved in this. But I know the 7
people who were. It was handled out of the Brussels 8
Office.
9 And they wrote a report where they 10 analyzed the event. And the report was filed.
11 This was five years before Three Mile 12 Island. No report to the NRC. After all, it was a 13 foreign plant.
14 It turns out it was three American plants 15 using exactly the same design of power operated 16 relief valves. This was a -- I think it was a broken 17 stem, yoke stem on that valve.
18 There were three plants in New York, the 19 State of New York that used the same valve. NRC 20 didn't know about it.
21 Then in 1979 another Condition III event 22 occurred at Three Mile Island. And in that case the 23 power operator relief valve opened and it stuck 24 opened.
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25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 However, the operators at Three Mile 1
Island didn't know what was going on. They didn't 2
understand they had a stuck open relief valve.
3 And they failed to deal with it. And 4
that error, that failure to deal with that Condition 5
III event led to a partial melt down of the core.
6 These are also called infrequent events.
7 And they're defined by the standard as events that 8
are not to occur more than once or twice during a 40-9 year design lifetime of a plant.
10 And I don't think you've considered this.
11 You were so concerned with aging management, and 12 replacing gaskets and rubber seals, you didn't look 13 at it.
14 I know I didn't look at it when I was 15 doing this work. It's easy to overlook.
16 The question that needs to be --
17 MS. BROWN: Excuse me. For those of you 18 that are on the phone, can you mute your lines please?
19 Thank you. Sorry.
20 MR. DONOGHUE: Let me make sure I 21 understand your point then. We didn't look at the 22 operating experience from that event?
23 MR. MIRANDA: No. No.
24 MR. DONOGHUE: Or --
25
26 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MR. MIRANDA: No, I'm only guessing here.
1 And my guess is that you didn't look at ANS standard 2
N18.2. You didn't look at the definition of a 3
Condition III event.
4 You didn't notice that these are defined 5
in terms of plant lifetime. Now Condition II events 6
and Condition I events, they're defined in terms of 7
reactor years of operation.
8 So, if you extend the lifetime of a 9
plant, those probabilities won't change. There are 10 so many Condition II events that will occur per year 11 of operation.
12 And you could have -- you could have up 13 to a dozen of these per year. They're not serious 14 events.
15 In fact I have information from the 16 Nuclear Energy Institute that indicates that in the 17 year 2015 every plant -- the incidents of reactor 18 trips at American plants in 2015 there were 64 of 19 them.
20 You spread those out over 100 plants and 21 you have, you know, a three-fifths chance of having 22 a reactor trip at any given plant. And that is not 23 a serious concern.
24 I'm just saying that these things happen.
25
27 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 And Condition II events are reactor trips. Reactor 1
trips -- unplanned reactor trips are Condition II 2
events.
3 They should be handled by the plant 4
without too much delay. And the plant should be 5
restarted. No problem.
6 But Condition III events are different.
7 Condition III events could end the lifetime of a plant 8
as it did for Three Mile Island for example.
9 By the way, when this came to light in 10 1979 after Three Mile Island, the NRC issued an 11 information notice. I think it was 79-45.
12 Where they copied the entire Westinghouse 13 report of the incident into the record. And sent it 14 out to every licensee in the United States so that 15 they would know about it.
16 So, when I read 10 CFR 54, when I look at 17 the current licensing bases, that current licensing 18 basis, I think the purpose of 10 CFR 54, which governs 19 license renewal applications, the purpose of that is 20 to maintain the current licensing basis.
21 And all the standards that are involved 22 with it. And whether you want to consider ANS N18.2 23 as part of that or not, it really doesn't matter.
24 Because the licensees have made it part of that either 25
28 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 by reference or by copying and pasting it, it's in 1
every -- every PWR licensing basis.
2 And there's another equivalent, N212, 3
which is in the licensing basis of every PWR. Well, 4
it's there.
5 And furthermore, I'd like to point out to 6
you that this withdrawn standard has been referenced 7
by the IAEA in 1999 and by the ONR, the Office for 8
Nuclear Regulations of the United Kingdom, in their 9
AP1000 design certification documents.
10 And that was in November 2015. So 11 they're referencing a withdrawn standard.
12 So, I would like -- so there is also a 13 distinction that was drawn by Brian Holian. Do you 14 know Brian Holian? Yeah, the Director of License 15 Renewal.
16 He was quoted in 2011, he said -- he was 17 quoted in a Wall Street Journal article. I'll 18 provide this to you, Lois. I'll send you all of 19 that, yeah.
20 MS. JAMES: Can you send that attachment 21 to me.
22 MR. MIRANDA: Sure. He said in 2011, 23 its called license renewal, not relicensing, said 24 Brian Holian, Director of License Renewal at the NRC.
25
29 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 And the agency's rules dictate what is reviewed.
1 He goes on to say, the public often is 2
not satisfied by that explanation he admits.
3 Sometimes they want the opportunity to reevaluate 4
whether the plant should even be there.
5 So that's one view. That's his view of 6
License Renewal. Which is to limit -- limit the 7
review of a license renewal application. Okay?
8 And the limit, as I understand it, is 9
looking at aging management. But as I said, there's 10 a lot more to that.
11 And what I'm saying is, relicensing does 12 not have to be a question of whether the plant should 13 even be there. But relicensing should include 14 concerns in addition to aging management.
15 There are things that happen that are not 16 related to aging. I would point out to you for 17 example Davis-Besse.
18 Have you considered the Davis-Besse 19 situation in your aging management? Where you have 20 the drip, drip, drip of boric acid on the reactor 21 vessel head.
22 Which bore a hole in the reactor vessel 23 head, which was stopped only by the stainless steel 24 inner lining. Is that part of aging management?
25
30 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 I can give you another example from my 1
own experience. I drive a 15-year old car. I do 2
aging management. I replaced the timing belt on my 3
car.
4 If you want to drive your car past one 5
hundred thousand miles, you need to change the timing 6
belt. But things went wrong with that car that has 7
nothing to do with aging.
8 For example, my radio was getting very 9
poor reception. It turned out that my car has four 10 antennae. Four antennae.
11 And it has a little part in the back, 12 it's like a piece of plastic with wire wound around 13 it. No moving parts. And that component selects 14 the strongest of the four signals and sends that to 15 the radio. It's a signal selector.
16 Do you know that nuclear power plants 17 have signal selectors? Westinghouse is famous for 18 the median signal selector.
19 Is that part of aging management?
20 MR. OESTERLE: Mr. Miranda, this is Eric 21 Oesterle from the NRC. I have a clarifying question 22 if you don't mind.
23 MR. MIRANDA: Sure.
24 MR. OESTERLE: The example that you gave 25
31 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 about the -- about your car and replacing the timing 1
belt.
2 Would you characterize that, being able 3
to replace the timing belt -- well, you had mentioned 4
that if you don't replace your timing belt, you can't 5
operate the vehicle anymore.
6 MR. MIRANDA: Probably should not.
7 Yeah.
8 MR. OESTERLE: Would you characterize 9
the ability to replace the timing belt as being able 10
-- equivalent to extending the lifetime of your 11 vehicle?
12 MR. MIRANDA: That is one of the things 13 you need to do if you want to extend the lifetime of 14 the vehicle. But it's not -- not everything.
15 MR. OESTERLE: Thank you.
16 MR. MIRANDA: Just a brief -- a brief 17 lecture if you will on Conditions I and II versus 18 Conditions III and IV. And this is in the ANS 19 Standard.
20 Conditions I and II are what you might 21 call conditions of normal operation. Condition I is 22 normal operation.
23 Condition I are events that happen during 24 the normal operation of the
- plant, such as 25
32 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 maneuvering of the plant, reducing load, increasing 1
load, repositioning rods. Things you need to do 2
every day as part of operating the plant.
3 They are not things that require 4
protective action. But -- but, you keep track of 5
these things, as well as Condition II events.
6 Condition II events are more extreme 7
versions of Condition I events. These might require 8
reactor trip -- at most a reactor trip.
9 This is defined in the ANS Standard.
10 Condition II events are accommodate -- shall be 11 accommodated, I'm quoting now, shall be accommodated 12 by at most a reactor shut down with the plant being 13 able to be returned to normal operation within a short 14 time.
15 This is in the Standard. But all of 16 these things are tracked. Sometimes they called a -
17
- the design transients. And you can find these in 18 the reactor's FSAR.
19 They're part of the licensing basis. So 20 during a 40-year design lifetime of a plant, that 21 plant is designed to have as many as say, for example, 22 four hundred reactor trips.
23 Why does this matter? Well, components 24 in the reactor, some thick metal components for 25
33 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 example, can only take so many thermal transients or 1
pressurization transients before the components 2
themselves become brittle and subject to break.
3 You can compare this to a, for example, 4
a paperclip. If you bend a paperclip back and forth, 5
you can only do it so many times before it breaks.
6 But you might design when you're 7
designing your paperclip that it should not be bent 8
more than five times. Otherwise, it's subject to 9
break.
10 So you put that in the design specs. No 11 more than five bends of this paperclip. When you 12 reach five, you stop.
13 And that's called a cumulative usage 14 factor. That's also in the FSAR. Each of these 15 components has a cumulative usage factor. And that 16 is the percentage of such transients you can have for 17 each component.
18 When you reach one point off, you stop.
19 Well, these are things that could limit the lifetime 20 of a plant. And in some cases it could even reduce 21 it to below 40 years, let along below 60 years.
22 I'm getting to the end of my time. So, 23 I will end with just another story that I don't think 24 you know about this. Maybe I'm wrong.
25
34 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MS. GOLD: You've still got five minutes.
1 MR. MIRANDA: Okay.
2 MR. DONOGHUE: Yeah, you've got five.
3 MR. MIRANDA: I'm aware -- and I'm aware 4
and maybe some of the licensees can verify this. You 5
know, when you're operating a plant for a long time, 6
you're operating things like charging pumps, they're 7
in operation all the time.
8 And the time may come when you need to 9
replace a component like a charging pump. And you 10 go out into the marketplace and you want to buy 11 another pump with the characteristics that match the 12 pump you have.
13 Okay. But that -- the pump you have was 14 built in 1975. And they don't make it anymore. But 15 you go to a reliable supplier, you know, who can give 16 you a pump with an N stamp on it.
17 But it doesn't match exactly the 18 characteristics of the pump you're trying to replace.
19 So what are you supposed to do?
20 They want exactly that pump. Because if 21 they don't get exactly that pump with exactly those 22 characteristics that requires a license amendment.
23 That's another year delay in getting that pump 24 replaced.
25
35 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 To put this in more practical terms, in 1
terms of accident analysis in Chapter 15, suppose you 2
get a real good pump. It's an improvement over the 3
old one.
4 It will produce more flow at higher 5
pressures. Which is great for loss of coolant 6
accidents to make up water that's lost due to a break 7
in the piping.
8 However, there are other accidents, the 9
mass addition accidents where this is bad. Now that 10 better pump is going to fill the pressurizer sooner.
11 That requires a new analysis. That 12 requires -- it would be the first instance with the 13 loss of cooling
- accident, you've got better 14 equipment, you can take care of that with 10 CFR 15 50.59.
16 However, for the mass addition accident 17 where the result is actually worse, where the 18 pressurizer fills sooner because you have a better 19 pump, now you need a new analysis.
20 You need a license amendment request.
21 And you've got -- you've got basically about a year 22 to wait for that amendment to be issued.
23 So we are -- to conclude, we are 24 basically -- the NRC is reviewing -- this is basically 25
36 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 philosophical. You're reviewing license renewals, 1
and I question, I've always questioned this, what 2
does a license renewal have to do with protecting the 3
health and safety of the public?
4 How does that improve the health and 5
safety of the public? It improves the bottom line 6
of the utilities. And if you're perfect, if you did 7
your aging management properly and you've considered 8
every possibility that could occur, all the known 9
unknowns, I'm quoting Robert McNamara now.
10 The known unknowns and the unknown 11 unknowns, if you can do all of that, if you're 12 perfect, you have not done -- you still have not done 13 anything to improve the public health and safety.
14 At best you can -- you're right where you 15 started. You're at 100 percent of the public health 16 and safety that was existing at year one of 17 operations. More likely you're less than that.
18 So, we've got countries like China and 19 South Korea building new plants, AP1000 plants. And 20 the United States is refurbishing old plants.
21 So if it were up to me, if I were going 22 to compare the U.S. to China and South Korea, I would 23 say the U.S. is the asshole country.
24 So that's the -- by the way, everything 25
37 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 that's sent for renewals, that goes for upgrades too.
1 By the way that Beznau plant that I 2
mentioned, with the accident in 1974, that's going to 3
be shut down beginning -- all the Swiss plants are 4
going to be shut down beginning in 2019. All of the 5
German plants have already been shut down.
6 That's the end of mine.
7 MS. GOLD: Thank you. Again, I'm Meg 8
Gold, co-facilitating with Cris Brown.
9 And at this time since this is a public 10 meeting, I'd like to remind the PRB members, 11 licensees, Petitioner and other meeting participants 12 the need to please refrain from discussing any 13 sensitive or proprietary information during today's 14 meeting.
15 And as a reminder, if you need to speak 16 from the phone, if you don't have a mute button, 17 please press the star six key to unmute your phone.
18 And then again star six to remute.
19 At this time, does anybody here from 20 headquarters have any questions for Mr. Miranda? If 21 so, please state your name first.
22 MR. OESTERLE: So, Eric Oesterle from 23 NRC, so you had mentioned the statements about 24 license renewal does not improve the public health 25
38 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 and safety.
1 Are you aware that the NRC's mission is 2
to ensure that there's no adverse impact to the public 3
health and safety. And that we are not -- we're not 4
here to ensure that public health and safety is 5
improved.
6 MR. MIRANDA: Exactly. Yes. To protect 7
the public health and safety. So that's why I said, 8
at best, if you take into consideration every aspect 9
of a license renewal, aging management and everything 10 else, at best you'll be protecting the public health 11 and safety.
12 MR. DONOGHUE: And this is Joe Donoghue.
13 In that statement you also added that, at best it 14 could be, but it's likely that we're not.
15 What's your base -- do you have a basis 16 for that?
17 MR. MIRANDA: The basis for my petition.
18 MR. DONOGHUE: Okay.
19 MR. MIRANDA: I don't think and I could 20 be wrong, but I don't think you've looked at Condition 21 III events and their incidents over an extended plant 22 lifetime.
23 If you have, then I'd be glad to withdraw 24 the petition. If you have, just send me the ADAMS 25
39 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 accession number with the report of how you 1
considered this and how you resolved it.
2 MR. BROADDUS: This is Doug Broaddus 3
again. Im just looking for a clarification from the 4
standpoint of -- that you talked about the definition 5
of current licensing basis in Part 54.3.
6 Could you clarify why you believe that 7
definition is relevant to your request? I'm not sure 8
I fully understand the relevance of that.
9 MR. MIRANDA: Well, that goes back to 10 what I told Mr. Oesterle. That this is -- you need 11 to consider the entire licensing basis. But you're 12 not.
13 When you do a license renewal, when 14 you're extending the lifetime of a plant by 50 15 percent, you're not relaxing any requirements. It's 16 going to be just as safe in the 60th year of operation 17 as it was in the first year.
18 MR. BROADDUS: But I thought originally 19 when you referenced that that you were referring to 20 the requirement under 50.92 and the statement that 21 was made that you were apply -- your Petition here to 22 comply that that 50.92 requirement was applicable to 23 part 54 license renewal.
24 MR. MIRANDA: Yes. I still believe that 25
40 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 it is. I think it is applicable.
1 Even if you don't ask for a
no 2
significant hazards evaluation from the licensee, 3
which would be filed under 50.92, even if you don't 4
ask for that, it's in the licensing basis. It's part 5
of 10 CFR part 50.
6 And it maintains the current licensing 7
basis. And the ultimate, in my opinion, you may have 8
found an exception for this, but the ultimate license 9
amendment, the ultimate, meaning the last one, the 10 last license amendment that a plant will have, will 11 be the one that asks for the plant life extension.
12 Okay. You want to call it a license 13 renewal application. I call it the last amendment.
14 Okay.
15 And in any case, even if you don't 16 require a no significant hazards evaluation, even if 17 you have it written in 10 CFR part 54, thou shall not 18 need a no significant hazards evaluation. Okay. So 19 then you go ahead and you issue the license renewal.
20 Okay.
21 And sometime during the extended lifetime 22 of that plant, it could be -- it could be a one week 23 later, or it could be three years later, at some time 24 that plant is going to come in for a license 25
41 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 amendment.
1 It's going to what to change its tech 2
specs. Or it's going to change that charging pump I 3
mentioned earlier.
4 As soon as they come in for that license 5
amendment, now you're into this 10 CFR 50.92, no 6
significant hazards.
7 MR. BROADDUS: Okay. But that's a 8
definite -- that's exactly what I was getting at. Is 9
that it maybe still applicable for license amendments 10 that are submitted at any other time.
11 So, I mean, so it remains applicable for 12 those licensees. If they submit a license amendment 13 whether it's before or after license renewal, they're 14 required to meet the requirement of 50.52.
15 But, if -- what I was getting at is, you 16 believe it is applicable to the license renewal 17 itself. So, I think you've answered that question.
18 MR. MIRANDA: Well, it's just my opinion.
19 But I could ask you a question.
20 I could ask you since you've already 21 renewed the licenses of more than 80 plants, have you 22 looked at license amendment requests from plants that 23 are already operating in their extended life period?
24 And looked at most significant hazards 25
42 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 evaluations from these plants? And have these plants 1
told you that Condition III events are not going to 2
be increased in likelihood?
3 MR. BROADDUS: So, I am not going through 4
all of them. I can tell you as one of the branch 5
chiefs that's responsible for signing out amendments 6
that come into us, to our office that in every case 7
they always do address the no significant hazards 8
determination that's required under part 50.92.
9 MR. MIRANDA: Right.
10 MR. BROADDUS: And part of my review that 11 analysis needs to be applicable to the change that 12 they're requesting in the amendment.
13 MR. MIRANDA: Right. And what -- the 14 reason I'm here for this Petition is, does that no 15 significant hazards evaluation, does that include an 16 evaluation of Condition III events?
17 Like the one that occurred at Three Mile 18 Island.
19 MR. BROADDUS: And I would have to say 20 it depends upon the request.
21 MR. MIRANDA: Um-hum. Right. It 22 depends on the changes they're asking for.
23 MR. BROADDUS: Yes.
24 MR. MIRANDA: Yes.
25
43 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MS. BROWN: Any other questions in the 1
room from headquarters staff? State your name.
2 MR. DOZIER: My name is Jerry Dozier from 3
the Division of Risk Assessment. And one of the 4
things that you were talking about was, now what did 5
we do and consider in license renewal before we 6
decided to kind of isolate it to passive components 7
and adverse effects of age? That was kind of where 8
license renewal ended up.
9 And those active features like you were 10 talking about as a -- as active feature of a valve, 11 if we were not subject to an aging management review 12 and I was just going to ask -- just going to say, 13 were you aware in the statements of consideration 14 where, you know, realize there was an earlier license 15 renewal rule around the '95 time frame.
16 That was also about the time that 17 maintenance rule was coming around in 1996. So that 18 was when, you know, the MPAR studies were earlier and 19 they were actually looking at that component.
20 And then in '96 during that statement of 21 consideration when they changed the rules, they said 22 that while maintenance rules, which was going to look 23 at, you know, the maintenance assembled function 24 failures and the routine failures and all this types 25
44 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 of stuff to take care of the aging on active 1
components.
2 And then so what we're missing now is the 3
passive components.
4 MR. MIRANDA: Um-hum.
5 MR. DOZIER: That we're going to do. And 6
all that's actually explained in the statement of 7
consideration which I think it was a '95 or '96 rule.
8 I wondered if you were aware of that?
9 MR. MIRANDA: Yes. I used to do -- I 10 used to do Mr. Beaton's job. I used to write the 11 safety evaluations for license renewal applications 12 from the DSS standpoint.
13 MR. DOZIER: That was really like built 14 into the writing.
15 MR. MIRANDA: Well, a lot of it had to 16 do with, you know, the components that were affected.
17 Yeah.
18 MR. DOZIER: Okay.
19 MR. MIRANDA: That's right. But I think 20 what you just said reiterates what I've been saying.
21 That there's a lot more to this then just aging 22 management.
23 And active components like valves, while 24 you can argue that yeah, active components are always 25
45 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 surveilled and tested. And they operate once in a 1
while, so you know they're working. Or they're 2
supposed to work.
3 But that leaves -- that leaves a lot of 4
other things that are not considered. And the thing 5
that I believe is not being considered is the 6
definition of a Condition III event.
7 And a Condition IV event by the way, 8
that's also defined in terms of plant lifetime. The 9
difference between a Condition III event and a 10 Condition IV event is that a Condition IV event is 11 not supposed to happen at all. Ever.
12 The only reason a Condition IV is 13 analyzed is to size safeguards equipment like safety 14 injection pumps for example. To be sure that if it 15 happens once in a million years or whatever, if it 16 happens, you have the equipment that is capable of 17 dealing with it.
18 So the worse
- credible, I'm using 19 quotation marks in the air by the way for the 20 transcript, I'm making quotation marks.
The 21 "credible accident" the "worst credible" accident is 22 a Condition III event. This is the one that can 23 happen.
24 And this is the one that is responsible 25
46 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 so far for at least the core melt down at Three Mile 1
Island.
2 MS. GOLD: Okay. Any other questions 3
from -- yes, go ahead.
4 MR. BROADDUS: I have one final question.
5 MS. GOLD: Okay.
6 MR. BROADDUS: This is Doug Broaddus.
7 So, I just want to make sure we fully understand your 8
basis for what you're asking in your Petition.
9 And you've referred back to the ANS 10 standards you know, a number of times that many would 11 be considered that that's a requirement decision.
12 So is there something specific in that 13 standard or in any of the current licensing basis for 14 any of the plants that have been renewed or are going 15 through license renewal that indicate that those 16 events, those Condition III, Condition IV, Conditions 17 I and II, that those would increase as a result of 18 the license renewal?
19 Especially given what Mr. Oesterle, what 20 he stated previously about the ability to repair or 21 replace, you know, do maintenance on the components 22 and equipment.
23 MR. MIRANDA: I have two answers for your 24 question. First I would say that the ANS standard, 25
47 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 as I said earlier, is irrelevant.
1 It's relevant only in so far as it is in 2
the licensing basis and is placed there by the 3
licensee. By the way, this ANS standard has 4
intersections with 10 CFR part 50, Appendix A, and 5
with Reg Guide 1.70.
6 Which was Appendix A, I believe, was 7
issued in 1971. And Reg Guide 1.70, I think the 8
first draft was in 1968. And the last draft was in 9
1978.
10 And they also -- both they also talk 11 about categorization of events and the acceptance 12 criteria for each of these categories of events.
13 So that is all in the licensing basis.
14 That is all in Chapter 15. And whether a licensee 15 refers to the ANS standard or not is irrelevant as 16 long as those criteria are in there.
17 It's like playing pool. A licensee says, 18 I'm going to make this shot. And he better make that 19 shot. If he misses it then he has, you know, he has 20 not met those licensing criteria.
21 So he's telling you in -- the licensee is 22 saying in Chapter 15, no Condition II event is going 23 to cause fuel damage. Then he has to do the analysis 24 to show that no Condition II event is going to cause 25
48 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 fuel damage.
1 And whether that comes from ANS 18.2 or 2
whether it comes from 10 CFR part 50, Appendix A, and 3
it's in there as well, it doesn't matter. He told 4
you what he's going to do and now he needs to show 5
you that he did it.
6 MS. GOLD: So, can we move to the phone 7
please? Are there any questions from headquarters 8
staff on the phone? Did anybody join?
9 And if so, please say your name first and 10 ask your question.
11 MR. JONES: This is David Jones. Yeah, 12 I do not have any questions at this time.
13 MS. GOLD: Thank you. And was there any 14 staff in the region who joined the phone who wanted 15 to ask any questions at this time? Or any licensees 16 on the phone who want to ask any questions at this 17 time?
18 (No response) 19 MS. GOLD: Okay. Then before we 20 conclude the meeting, members of the public may 21 provide comments regarding this Petition. And ask 22 questions about the 2.206 petition process.
23 As was stated at the opening of the 24 meeting, the purpose is not to provide an opportunity 25
49 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 for the Petitioner, the licensees, or the public to 1
question or examine the PRB regarding the merits of 2
the Petition request.
3 Are there any members of the public that 4
want to ask any questions?
5 MS. COLLINS: Yes. Jessie Collins here.
6 I would like to say that -- make a statement. I 7
don't have a question I just have a statement.
8 That I believe Mr. Miranda knows the laws 9
better than any of you. And I'd say you're going to 10 have a hard time to dismiss his Petition because of 11 that.
12 Thank you.
13 MS. GOLD: Lois, would you like the name 14 as to --
15 MS. JAMES: Well, could you repeat your 16 name and spell it for me? I had a little trouble 17 with one of the names in the previous meeting.
18 MR. MIRANDA: That's Jessie Collins.
19 MS. JAMES: Jessie Collins. Thank you.
20 MR. MIRANDA: And I have her contact 21 information. Because she's been in touch with me.
22 MS. JAMES: Yes. Thank you.
23 MR. MIRANDA: I have a question to the 24 PRB. And my question is, --
25
50 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MR. DONOGHUE: Well, before you go on 1
with that, you should make sure that any more members 2
of the public --
3 MR. MIRANDA: Oh, okay. All right.
4 MS. GOLD: Okay. Are there any more 5
members of the public that have any questions at this 6
time?
7 (No response) 8 MS. GOLD: Okay. So at that point we 9
can -- through with the questions. Joe, if you'd 10 like to take it back to --
11 MR. DONOGHUE: So I'm going to give you 12 a chance in a second for your question. All right, 13 Sam.
14 This is Joe Donoghue. I want to thank 15 everybody for their participation today. And for the 16 assistance to make -- making this an efficient and 17 productive meeting.
18 Thank you Lois for getting everybody on 19 the phone at the beginning. And sorry about that Sam 20 and everybody that we had a slight delay.
21 Before we go on, I'm just going to 22 summarize what the -- I think the significant points 23 you made Mr. Miranda. And make sure we have an 24 understanding of what we talked about today.
25
51 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 You made a point early on that 10 CFR 54, 1
it defines the current licensing basis of a plant.
2 And that that is a connection to part 50.
3 You went on to explain that in your view 4
the license renewal review approach that we take 5
focuses on aging management and excludes other 6
considerations. Which is a -- that's the basis of 7
your concern where --
8 MR. MIRANDA: Well --
9 MR. DONOGHUE: Go ahead.
10 MR. MIRANDA: Not exclude, neglect.
11 MR. DONOGHUE: Neglects. Okay, neglects 12 the CLB. And specifically looking at the frequency 13 of these Condition III events.
14 You gave us several examples. I wont 15 go through all of them on how it illustrates your 16 point. But, another point you made was that the 17 NRC's approach doesn't improve safety in anyway.
18 And you also --
19 MR. MIRANDA: But I presented -- deferred 20 to Mr. Oesterle that he's correct. It doesn't 21 improve safety. But the NRC's responsibility is not 22 to improve it but to protect it.
23 MR. DONOGHUE: Okay. Okay, thank you.
24 So, thank you for, you know the discussion, with all 25
52 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 the people who were asking clarifying questions.
1 Is that, you know, the summary I gave 2
you, is that the essence of that -- basically the 3
point you wanted to make today?
4 MR. MIRANDA: Yeah. It's a very simple 5
Petition. And I have not seen any evidence that 6
Condition III events have been considered.
7 And there are other things besides aging 8
management that ought to be considered. And we will 9
find out if they need to be considered.
10 As these plants progress into their 11 extended lifetimes, these things are going to come 12 up. And they're not going to be things that were 13 considered during the license renewal application 14 process.
15 MR. DONOGHUE: Okay. Fine.
16 MR. MIRANDA: That's the hard way to 17 learn.
18 MR. DONOGHUE: Did you have a question 19 about the process here from the PRB?
20 MR. MIRANDA: I do. Yeah. Yeah. If 21 the PRB, well you had a meeting on December 5 and I 22 expect you'll have another meeting --
23 MR. DONOGHUE: Right.
24 MR. MIRANDA: For your final decision.
25
53 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 Do you have in these meetings representative of 1
licensees?
2 MR. DONOGHUE: No. No, the PRB -- it's 3
the PRB members are here.
4 MR. BROADDUS: Okay. This is Doug 5
Broaddus. It specifically states in the management 6
directive that these are closed meetings for the NRC 7
staff. And the members of the PRB.
8 MR. MIRANDA: Well, I didn't see that.
9 I was looking for it.
10 MR. BROADDUS: Well, I'll look into it 11 and makes sure to get you that citation so you can.
12 MR. DONOGHUE: Okay. Mr. Miranda, thank 13 you for taking the time to provide the staff with 14 additional clarifying information on your Petition 15 and to discuss the PRB's initial recommendation.
16 The Board plans to meet internally to 17 discuss the information that you've provided in your 18 Petition and supplemented. And make its final 19 recommendation on your Petition.
20 Following that meeting, the Petition 21 Manager, Lois, will inform you of our recommendation 22 to either accept or reject the Petition for review 23 and issue the NRC's response letter in accordance 24 with the Management Directive 8.11.
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54 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 I have one more question for you. Do you 1
have feedback for us on today's meeting that you'd 2
like to provide?
3 MR. MIRANDA: Feedback. Don't you have 4
a form for that?
5 (Laughter) 6 MR. DONOGHUE: We can get you the form.
7 I just wanted to check and see if you had any --
8 MR. MIRANDA: Let me put it this way. I 9
don't have anything to complain about.
10 MR. DONOGHUE: Okay. Thank you.
11 MR. MIRANDA: I don't have negative 12 feedback.
13 (Off mic comments) 14 MR. MIRANDA: Well, you stuck to the time 15 schedule. And you gave everyone a chance to talk.
16 And we've had an exchange where each per -- each 17 participant listened to the other and addressed --
18 and addressed their concerns.
19 So I don't --
20 MS. BOUDART: Is it too late for me to 21 say something? Hello?
22 MS. GOLD: Yes. You can say something.
23 Please say your name first.
24 MS. JAMES: Yes.
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55 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MS. BOUDART: I'm Jan Boudart. And I'm 1
a Board Member of the Nuclear Energy Information 2
Service.
3 And I'm wondering if -- I have two 4
questions. When will this recording of the meeting 5
come out?
6 And the second one is, what are Mr.
7 Miranda's coordinates so that we can get hold of him 8
if we want to?
9 MS. JAMES: The transcripts will be 10 attached to the meeting summary. And that will be 11 out within 30 days of today.
12 MS. BOUDART: Okay.
13 MS. JAMES: Can I get you to spell your 14 last name?
15 MS. BOUDART: B-as in baby, O-U-D-as 16 in David, A-R-T.
17 MS. JAMES: Okay. Thank you. And I 18 guess I will leave it up to Mr. Miranda on -- if he 19 wants to give his contact information.
20 MR. MIRANDA: Go ahead and give Janet my 21 email address.
22 MS. JAMES: Okay. Janet, if you could 23 email me at Lois, L-O-I-S.J-A-M-E-S@NRC.gov, and I 24 will forward you his information.
25
56 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 MS. BOUDART: Okay. I'm missing --
1 could you -- do you mind spelling me your last name?
2 MS. JAMES: Sure. It's James, J-A-M-E-3 S, just like the boy's first name.
4 MS. BOUDART: Oh, James. Lois James at 5
NRC.gov.
6 MS. JAMES: Yes. And I will forward you 7
8 MS. BOUDART: Okay.
9 MS. JAMES: That information.
10 MS. BOUDART: Thank you so much.
11 MR. DONOGHUE: Okay. We're not --
12 MS. GOLD: Just what -- before we close, 13 Court Reporter, if you have anything quickly that you 14 couldn't hear that you want somebody to repeat 15 themselves while we're all here.
16 COURT REPORTER: This is the Court 17 Reporter. No, I think I'm all right. Would it be 18 possible to get just a list of participants?
19 MS. JAMES: Yes. Yes. I will contact 20 you, Lois James, or you can contact me with a phone 21 number I can call you at.
22 COURT REPORTER: Okay. Sure. I can 23 send you an email as soon as we're done.
24 MS. JAMES: Thank you.
25
57 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTER: Thank you.
1 MR. MIRANDA: I do have one bit of 2
feedback.
3 MR. DONOGHUE: Yes?
4 MR. MIRANDA: I want to compliment Lois 5
James for her more than -- more then what shall I 6
say, her meeting minutes of the first meeting were 7
more detailed and more comprehensive then I'm 8
accustomed to seeing.
9 So, I thought that was very good. And 10 I've made reference to it several times.
11 MS. JAMES: Thank you.
12 MR. DONOGHUE: Okay.
13 MS. GOLD: So with that the meeting is 14 concluded. And we will terminate the phone 15 connection. Thank you very much.
16 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter 17 went off the record at 4:17 p.m.)
18 19 20 21