ML12275A518
| ML12275A518 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | San Onofre  |
| Issue date: | 09/28/2011 |
| From: | NRC/OI |
| To: | |
| References | |
| FOIA/PA-2012-0185, 4-2011-024 | |
| Download: ML12275A518 (39) | |
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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
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OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS INTERVIEW x
IN THE MATTER OF:
INTERVIEW OF (b)(7)(C) O (CLOSED)
- 01 Case No.
- 4-2011-024 x
Wednesday, September 28, 2011 San Onofre Nuclear Generating Station San Clemente, California The above-entitled interview was conducted at 1:02 p.m.
BEFORE:
Eenior Special Agent
[Special Agentt)7)(c)
_*mN 4f20 11- 024
'!.31; T NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2
1:02 p.m.
(b(7(C) 3
ýR. SPEC.
AGENT [
J For the 4
- record, this is an interview of__b_(7_(c)
(b)(7)(C) 5 who is1 6
Today's date is September 28, 2011.
The 7
time is approximately 1:02 p.m.
8 This interview is being conducted at San 9
Onofre Nuclear Generating Station.
10 my name isKb(Z0c 11 I'm a LSpecial Agent~with the Office of Investigations, 12 Region IV.
Also present is [Special Agent 13 from Region IV.
14 This interview is being recorded, and a 15 transcript will be produced from this recording.
16 I
need to ask you do you have any 17 recording devices on you?
(b)(7)(C) 18 No, I don't.
19
[SR.
SPEC.
AGENT Okay.
The 20 purpose of this interview is to discuss allegations of 21 retaliation raised to the NRC byI(b)(7)(C) 22 Would you raise your right hand please, 23 sir?
24 Do you swear the information you are about 25 to provide is the truth, the whole truth and nothing NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 but the truth, so help you, God?
[SR.
SPEC.
AGENTTII()()Oky
- Okay, first of a when did youE 0n from SONGS?
(b)(7)(C)
[SR. SPEC.
AGENT Okay.
And what was your background here -- your recent positions and how long were you employed here at SONGS?
(b)(7)(C)
[SR.
SPEC.
AGENT j(b)(7)(C)
I Okay.
(b)(7)(C)
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(b)(7)(C) 1 2
3 4
5
[SR. SPEC. AGENT (b)(7)(C)
Okay.
So when 7(b)(7)(CY 7
Yes.
8 9R. SPEC.
AGENTI(b)(7)(c)
Okay.
(b)(7)(C) 9 10 11
[SR. SPEC. AGENT (b)(7)(c)
Okay.
12 Okay.
13 And when you left you said it was (b)(7)(C) 14 I_
were you 15 working with or forl at the time?
I~)(7)(C) 16 With.
They were doing some 17 type of --
18
[SR.
SPEC.
AGENTL(b)(7)(c)
You and (7) 19 7were the same level?
20
(~b)(7)(C)
Y s 20 Yes.
21
[SR.
SPEC.
AGENT Okay.
22 I'm not going to say-that.
23 He's -- he was titled 24
ý(C)
So that's different.
25
[SR.
SPEC. AGENTI Okay.
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S-7c 5
IIt's (it
' s peer --
peer work 1
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 but not --
[SR.
SPEC.
AGENT (b)(7)(C)
(inaudible) ?
)(C INo, not pay.
[SR.
SPEC AGENT NoIt pay.
Okay.
Okay.
All right.
Did you at any time work for ll(b)(7)(C) b)(7)(c)
Yes.
And as I said -- well, when I was doing work as the supervisor of I(b)(7)(c)
I(b)(7)(C)
I'
[SR. SPEC.
AGENTI b)(7)c)
Okay.
I(b)(7)(C)
That was 10, 12 years ago.
[SR.
SPEC. AGENT[
Okay.
Fourteen.
It's been a while.
[SR.
SPEC. AGENT (b)(7(c)
Okay.
}(b)(7)(C)
I have it on my r~sum6 but I didn't bring it, so --
[SR. SPEC.
AGENT (b)(7)(c)
That's fine.
Okay.
l(b)(7)(C)
When you were in the and (b)(7J(c) was also in the
)you say you when you guys were same level except he was making more money?
(b)(7)(C)
Y s IYes.
ISaR.
SPEC. AGENT All NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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right.
And at that time, what were the differences in 2
your duties at that particular time right before you (b)(C(C 4
I was predominantly, 5
for for anything (ilneeded.
I was 6
pretty much the go-to guy for -- on weekends if any - -
7 if a call out, they could always count on you to come 8
in regardless of the (b)(7)(C) j type.
After many 9
- years, you get familiar with the many groups' 10 different methodologies.
But so you can work 11 fairly easily in almost any of the differentI(b)(7)(c)
()7(C) 12 environments.
1(b(7)(c) 13 SR.
SPEC.
AGENTL I Okay.
14 (b)(7)(C)
I thin (M)(7)(c) was working more (b)(7)(C) 16 Both he and I would --
would also be farmed out to 17 other groups to help other groups do work.
I wcrked 18 with a --
with a (b)(7)(C) for a while in 19 I think I did a in that year also but maybe 20 not.
I don't think so.
I think it's been a long time 21 since I've been in(b)(7)(C)
I think.
22
[SR.
SPEC.
AGENTbZ(
Okay..
What 23 type of employee did you consider (b)(7)(c) to be?
24 The type you would point to to 25 say that is an Edison employee.
That's what you would NEAL R. GROSS
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want an Edison employee to -- to look like, be like, 2
act like, perform like.
I find jto always have 3
been I don't know --
the highest integrity.
He 4
taught me things on how to -- how to talk to authority 5
without raising hackles.
He taught me how to talk to 6
authority to raise hackles because that's
-- that was 7
part of the training that he had received and needed (b)(7)(C) 8 to have as as an I believe 9
he's a(b)(7)(C) 9 he's a 10
[SR.
SPEC.
AGENTI(b)(7XC) okay.
11
[
j He was an (
I~)7()H (b)(7)(C) 12 He's a I(b)(7)(c)
So the guy had a lot of 13 aspects that I tried to assume pieces of.
You know a 14 little bit of everybody you'd ever met.
15
[SR.
SPEC.
AGEN TII Right.
15 AGENTb)b)77)(c 16 I
tried to acquire more of 17 that from 18isR.
SPEC. AGENT Okay.
Did you I(b)(7)(c) 19 know if jhad ever raised safety concerns here 20 at the plant?
(b)(7)(C) 21 Yes.
!(b)(7)(C) 22 PR. SPEC.
AGENT (COkay.
(b)(7)(C) 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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(b)(7)(C) 2 2
3 4
5
[SR. SPEC. AGEN T
II1()(7)
] Okay.
Is that 6
part of the investigation you referred to earlier when 7
you spoke with the Office of Investigations in the 8
past?
9 (b)(7)(C)
IYes.
(bb)(7)(C) 10 SR. SPEC.
AGENT Okay.
r)(7)(C) 11 In addition with our 12 interviews with Mr.
(inaudible) at the time,.in my 13 interview with him, he and others in the NRC took the 14
- - I~)7)(C 15 b)(7)(C) 15 16 17 (b)(7)(C) 18
[R.
SPEC.
AGENT T
Okay.
So 19 there was a separate investigation where you filed an (b)(7)(C) 2 0 (b)(7)(C
)
21 Yes.
r)
Ye Y?73(Cs 22
@R. SPEC.
AGENT c
Okay.
All 23 right.
Was that case ever resolved?
2(b)(7)(c)
(b)(7)(C) 24
[j Yes.
(b)(7)(C) 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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(b)(7)(c) 2
[SR.
SPEC.
AGENT 1Okay.
All 3
right.
- Yes, I can get access to it.
I didn't know 4
what the status was.
(b)(7)(C) 5 6
7 8
[SR.
SPEC.
AGEN Okay.
- Yes, I
9 don't want you to go into it.
I just wanted to know 10 if it was over with or if it was still pending or 11 what?
12
[~~(b)(7)(C)
Ok y 12
_Oka y.
13 PR. SPEC. AGENT[
Okay.
How do I(b)(7)(C) 14 you think from what you observed --
how 15 was he treated by senior management and by management 16
-- his management here at SONGS?
And let me narrow it 17 down.
Not from the time that you've known him, but 18 from the time that he started raising concerns and 19 concerns about the way (inaudible) concerns that you 20 viewed.
21 I think that he was -- actions 22 against him were definitely negative.
He was --
in 23
- meetings, he would be --
our supervisor at the time 24 would basically tell him to shut up because 25 would question supervisors' directions to us to not NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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follow a particular set of procedures that we were 2
required to follow because they were not completely 3
revised yet.
So --
so said well, we can'it be 4
doing it because that a violation of 10 CFR 50 5
(inaudible).
We have issues there.
And it was just (b)(7)(C) 6 you know --
shut up.
Just do the And 7
we're not --
you know --
I don't--
I don't want to 8
address that anymore.
So we were --
we and he were --
9 our supervisor would basically come down harder on him 10 it seemed than on others.
11
[SR. SPEC.
AGENT (I)(7)(C) 12 lb)(7)(C)
Probably because F)(-7)(c)
Jhad a 13 little more backbone than the rest of us I think at 14 the time to go ahead and say -- you know --
this is 15 this is wrong.
You can say it now.
16
[SR.
SPEC.
AGENTI(b)(7)(C)
Okay.
b)(7)(C)7)(C) 17 I know that in 2009, was 18 called back to another group to work on some (b)(7)(C) 19 And that took him away from the 20 (b)[7)(C)
I for months.
But just still 21 they're still interfaced because sometimes he'd work 22 with them in their area and then he'd come back and do 23 work in our area.
And we'd get a little bit of feel 24 for what he would be doing and stuff like that.
25 And you could hear --
the people he was NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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interfacing with at that time talking, and there was 2
never any negative (inaudible) things coming from --
3 from those groups with --
he was working with.
And 4
the feedback I got from those people was that 5
was -- you know -- providing lots of good input, lots 6
of good analysis because that's what he does really 7
well.
He takes sets of rules and he applies them and 8
then lets other people realize that he's being -- you 9
know -- that he's applying them correctly.
So because 10 he has this attention to detail capability and can 11 quote page and verse sometimes of the things that are 12 applicable, he keep --
it would tend to keep people 13 focused on what they were really trying to accomplish.
14 It keeps a lot of the flack and the fog 15 out of issues also when other things that may --
that 16 sound associated but aren't.
And he has the i7 capability of saying you know that's not 18 applicable.
So we're not going add that.
So he again 19 would provide this integrity component to other 20 groups.
And I've only heard good things from other 21 groups' supervisors and other people at his --
his 22 level during that time.
23
[SR. SPEC.
AGENTEb)(7)(C)
I And during the 24 time you worked with who was your 25 supervisor --
your immediate supervisor?
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(b)(7)(¢)
(phonetic) (inaudible).
2
[SR. SPEC. AGENTI )(7)(C) okay.
Were he
[(b)(7)(C) 3 and having problems with each other?
(b)(7)(C) 4 I wouldn't say problems.
It 5
was was having a problem with his im --
with 6
his trying to implement
()(7)(C)
(b)(7)(C) 7 (b)(7)(C) w 8
And when (b)(7)(C) 9 would object to that at group meetings or be the 10 first to object to that, there would be -- you know --
12 some --
some conflict in personalities there.
12 SR. SPEC. AGENT[
Okay.
13 (b)(7)(C)
And that would carry over when 14 the rest of us would say yes, (inaudible), you can't 15 be doing that.
And it was -- you know this is the 16 way we are going to do it.
And so, when somebody's 17 telling you to violate the set of rules that you --
18 you've been living by, you get the hackles up.
19
[SR. SPEC.
AGENT [(b)(7)(C)
Do you think 20 the way that 7
was treated when you observed 21 him --
when you worked with him -- do you feel that he 22 was treated that way because he was raising concerns 23 or because of his personality clash him and the person 24 he was dealing with?
25 b7)(C)
I don't believe it was NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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personality clash.
No.
No.
It was bringing up 2
the issue that this is wrong and that the conflict 3
there in
-- our supervisory had his marching orders 4
and they were in conflict with the general site 5
programs and protocols marching orders.
So that's 6
where the --
it was a it was like a professional 7
level disconnect there just (inaudible).
And you think 9
the professional disagreement between he and his 10 supervisor led to personal attacks against him?
(b)(7)(C) 11 It was more than just between 12 the -- the --
the--
13 LR. SPEC.
AGENT I Let me back 14 up.
I don't mean supervisor --
I mean, management 15 supervision on [(b)(7)(C) because of his ways of coming 16 back and saying this is not right, we're not supposed 17 to do this.
J(b)(7)(C) 18 1Right.
That's that's where 19 I was going because you limited it tob 20 ER.
SPEC.
AGENT (b)(7)(C)
- Yes, I'm 21 sorry.
I meant management supervision.
22 So J
was an unfortunate 23 figurehead.
He was a mouthpiece for his supervisor.
24 And that was pretty much an --
an acknowledged state 25 of existence.
as aiming at his final year with NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
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14 1
the company.
So he was you know really not 2
wanting to could have been roadblocks to that 3
function for him.
4 To answer your question was management 5
down on because of the issues that he had 6
raised, I would say yes, absolutely because the types 7
of work functions thatj was doing --
the issues 8
he was raising, the reasons he was raising them were 9
pretty much identical to the sets of reasons and (b)(7)(C) 10 functions that I 11 BR. SPEC.
AGENTE(b)(7)(c)
Okay.
12 It was --
it was almost --
it 13 was so clony, it was scary --
14 SR.
SPEC. AGENT Okay.
1(b)(7)(C) 15(b)(7)(C) because in[(b)(7)(C) i I was 16 absent from our group for about I(b)(7)(C) 17 and was expected to have performed theoretically at 18 the same level of the rest of the group for the whole 19 year.
Same sorts of issues with where he was 20 away from the group but they said his productivity was 21 severely diminished because of a miss-written report 22 application that the supervisor ran that showed his 23 productivity was less than what he had actual records 24 for.
They didn't want to hear what he had to say.
25 They went with this other invalid documentation.
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°
15 I
So it after left and his 2
replacement came in, it was more of the same.
3
[SR. SPEC. AGENT W)(7)(C)
Was this being 4
directed by a management level of I I(b)(7)(C) 5 I
In my opinion absolutely.
6 Absolutely.
Because7)(C-)as the -- the director of --
7 his management technique and his management style is 8
to do almost everything verbally.
And when you didn't 9
come up with what he wanted or when you came up with 10 exactly what he had said, he would come back and say 11 no, you misunderstood and give you new verbal 12 direction and --
which you were then subjected to.
So 13 trying to get --
trying to tieb7 to any specific 14 items was very difficult.
15 I started taking --
in sending him an 16 email, this is what I --
I understood you wanted.
Is 17 that right?
And so that I have a record of what --
18 what was he -- he was asking for.
19 So the mechanism of retaliating, he 20 has an elephant's memory.
He can wait a while and it 21 will come -- come back to you later, and it will come 22 at you blindsided.
23
[R. SPEC Okay.
2 4 I(b)(7)(C) 24 25 And I saw it happen to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
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4 5
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8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 CR.
SPEC.
AGENT Okay.
When I[(b)(7)(C)
]were you still here when he I(b)(7)(C)
)(7)(C)
No.
He went soon after I did.
I think two months.
SR. SPEC.
AGENTL At any point (b)(7)(C) did you work fort()c I
I No.
But I worked with him.
He was part of the[(b)7)(C)
(b)(7)(C)
So I knew and I've known (b)(7)(CZ) for quite a while.
[SR.
SPEC.
AGENT Okay.
All right.
I know you said you had I(b)(7)(C)
(b)(7)(C)
In
- 2010, Zraised a
concern regarding
&lacing an unqualified nonsupervisory person in a supervisory position (b(7(C) temporarily to replace I while he was out on leave or not presentj Did he ever talk to you about that?
J(b)(7)(C) l Y s Yes.
[SR. SPEC.
AGENT Ib)(7)(C)
Okay.
I know you weren't here to witness anything firsthand, but (b)(7)(C) what did tell you about the way he was treated after he filed his allegation?
Or I'm assuming he told you about the notification when he NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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C.
17 1
filed it a concern about it and then the 2
onslaught of the way he was treated.
I(b)(7)(c) 3 Well, he -- he did tell me --
4 and I believe that he is a competent observer and that 5
he would just as easily tell me about things that he 6
shouldn't have done or should --
or did do to keep 7
things in a reality basis for me because sometimes he 8
would ask --
you know --
it would be in a feedback 9
mode -- you know -- what do I think because I knew all 10 the parties that he was talking about.
11 His -- the -- the negatives that started 12 happening to him after that were more of the same.
13 And it was it it's a
subtle negative 14 negativity that -- that was brought on.
It's
-- there 15
-- there was a --
he told me about one --
I don't how 16 to get this.
He told this person that was put in 17 charge that he wasn't going to do 18 basically anything she said because she wasn't F(b)(7)(C) 19 qualified to be telling him a h
hat -- as a --
1(b)(7)(c) 20 and she's a that she shouldn't and 21 couldn't be telling him what to do.
And by company 22 programs, that was a true statement because you can't 23 be directed by a nonsupervisor.
24 So she went back after that conversation 25 with him and told[-jthat she felt threatened by him.
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And I think it's the realm of the Harry Truman issue 2
where people would say give him hell, Harry, and he 3
said I don't give them hell.
I tell them the'truth 4
and they just think it's hell.
Okay?
So I think 5
that's the situation that Xlf ound herself in was 6
was telling her the truth and she didn't like 7
the truth.
8 And so, since she didn't like that, her
- (b)(7)(C) 9 only mechanism of getting back a revelation 10 of what she can't do by company programs and processes 11 was to go to nd let him know.
And then that --
12 then it started an additional negative avalanche in 13 direction.
14 R. SPEC. AGENT[
Okay.
So what 15 I understand you to say is the way he was treated 16 while you were still working there and after you left 17 up to the time he filed his concern regarding 18 was just more of the same of what he had been 19 experiencing through what you observed while you 20 worked with him?
I(b)(7)(C) 21 That's correct.
22
[SR.
SPEC.
AGENTI)
Okay.
b)(7)(C)
(b)(7)(C) 23 Now not the only 24 person I get this information from because then --
you 25 know -- I worked with these guys most of my life.
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I'm still in contact with them.
And I get feedback 2
from the other guys in the group also.
So --
about 3
the way and what had happened.
So even though I'm 4
predominantly saying what assignments got changed, 5
this is the information I got fror-7)(c) lit also came from (b)(7)(C)
(phonetic) and[ b)(7)(C)
(phonetic) 7 and no, not (phonetic).
8 He was a 7) 1 And he's been just as long 9
as I have I think.
10 So I believe the information I'm getting II about the way was treated --
things that get (bb)(7)(C) 12 handled in the I()7C was validated - -
13 comments were validated by the other guys in 14 the group that were also watching it and --
15 9R. SPEC.
AGENT Okay.
You're 16 talking about all the time or just what happened with 17
- just over the time that --
18 7)(C)
Over
-- over time.
19 PR. SPEC.
AGENT I (b)(7)(C)Okay.
20 b)(7)(c)
Did I deviate from being 21 specific j~S)(7)(C)~
22
ýR. SPEC.
AGENT No, no, no.
23 I just want to make sure I was understanding that it (b)(7)(C) 24 wasn't after you said this about this 25 started happening.
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-7c, 20 1
No, it was 2
rSR.
SPEC.
AGENTI(b)T)(C)
It was a
3 combination of what's happened to him --
I(b)(7)(c) 4 Over the time of 2009 and 5
after.
6 SR. SPEC.
AGENT (
Okay.
7 (b)(7)(C)
And so, I observed things --
8 things I
didn't observe but heard about it was 9
validated by --
or corroborated by others.
Things 10 after -- after I left the company, I would also get 11 feedback from other people in the group.
So I - -
I - -
12 what I'm saying is not I
believe a one-person's 13 regurgitation of another person.
14
[SR. SPEC. AGENTE(
Right, right.
15 Okay.
Okay.
16 And now when you worked in the group, a
17 supervisor would go on leave or a supervisor would be 18 in training and not available, what was the normal 19 procedure to get a fill-in for him or her while they 20 were out?
Was there some type of list?
I know 21 there's certain qualifications a person's supposed to 22 have to fill in as a supervisor.
But what was the 23 standard protocol when you worked there?
24 (b)(7)(C)
There would usually be a --
a 25 supervisor that would be designated either one of the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
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led 21 1
supervisors are titled in the group or a parallel 2
group and The PPP -- procedures process programs and 3
that group that would have a
supervisory 4
function.
And for the technical matters of how things (b)(7)(C) 5 are -- are run or technical questions about I(b)(7)(C)I 6
who to go to --
things like that --
that 7
would usually be designated to somebody else.
I was (b)(7)(C))
8 otnteperson that was pointed to for J1)7)c 9
(b)(7)(C) 7on how we were doing things.
But i0 when it came to direction or needing things to be 11 signed off, it would usually go to a supervisor 12 because I would refuse that function because I --
I 13 couldn't legally do it.
14 SR. SPEC. AGE NT7 Okay. And 15 (b)(7)(C)
- when she was acting forZ7 16 (b)[)(C) in this instance when J
wrote the 17 notification about it, was that highly unlikely?
Was 18 that something that was not following protocol or 19 something that shouldn't have been done in your 20 opinion?
21 I(b)(7)(C) it (inaudible).
It should 22 definitely not have been done because it's it's 23 was definitely against protocols.
To put a
24 nonsupervisory person in in charge as a supervisor?
25
(§R.
SPEC.
AGENT [(b)(7)(C) He says a
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-76 22 1
protocol violation.
Was it an actual policy violation 2
also?
I(b)(7)(C) 3
[
I believe that that is a true 4
case under the Edison policies.
AGENTI7b)7)(¢ 5
SR. SPEC.GE[Oky 6
~7
(~
Yes.
7 (SR. SPEC.
AGENTI(b)(7)(c)
All right.
I 8
don't know if I asked you.
Were you ever asked to be 9
a fill-in supervisor when your supervisor was gone?
10 I know you said you were the go-to guy --
is what you 11 said -- and in your position, you were not acting as 12 supervisor?
13
- Well, just prior to my 14 leaving, no, because I continued to tell people that 15 when they would say you're going to be the supervisor 16 for the weekend or whatever, it's like I don't have 17 the quals.
So they'd go find somebody else.
18 So I I could come in and do all the 19 work and then go find a supervisor to sign the stuff 20 off.
And that was the usual mechanism.
It's 21 something we' d do -- if a I (b)(7)(¢)
needed changing or 22 whatever, I'd come in and I'd do all the work.
And 23 then I'd go find an engineer and tell him what he 24 needed to hear about what I was doing and then go get 25 a supervisor and tell him everything he needed to hear NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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23 1
about what was going on so that they're fully informed 2
about why these things are being changed so that they 3
would feel more -- or comfortable enough to sign off 4
on the things.
5
[SR. SPEC.
AGENT 1(b)(7)(C)
Okay.
6 (So though I was not performing 7
as a supervisor, I was helping them with what they 8
needed to know in order for them to do their job.
9 (SR.
SPEC.
AGENT 1()(7)(C)
Okay.
10 (And often it would be a
11 supervisor that under the level (inaudible),
so 12 that they would have like umbrella authority even 13 though they may be like an electrical supervisor -- an 14 electrical superintendent level.
There's an 15 electrical supervisor.
So there's they have 16 they have the authority to sign.
But they don't have 17 specific knowledge -- broad enough knowledge in order 18 to feel comfortable is what I'm saying.
So I in our 19 group would -- you know -- would tell these guys what 20 they need to know.
21
[R. SPEC.
AGENT Okay.
22 And that's keeping ourselves 23 compliant.
It's not a good old boy system.
It's this 24 is why we're doing this and --
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say this is why we're having to do it this way so that 2
they would know that they're in compliance when 3
they're signing something.
4 PR. S PEC.
AGENTb7(c)
Dkay.
b)(7)(C) 5 r
So we wf@08gain -- our focus 6
was do you think that the guys in the field needed 7
change and doing it such that the people signing it 8
are keeping ourselves in compliance.
It's difficult 9
sometimes.
10 FR.
SPEC.
AGENT
[
In your 11 conversations wit regarding this particular 12 issue with r)7)(C) taking over as supervisor, did 13 you give any opinion why you felt that she took over I(b)(7)(C) 14 or why put her in charge while he 15 left?
16 It's it's difficult to talk 17 about; sometimes.
She's a very likeable person.
18 And she has some -- she has expertise in a narrow area 19 that we utilized often -- 'very narrow area.
And it 20 was an administrative function that she --
she really 21 shone.
So we were able to utilize that aspect of it.
22 We have a lot of (b)(7)(C) 23 around here, and a lot of them had old -- you know --
24 very long annual/biannual reviews that hadn't really 25 been done.
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I 25 1
modern standards.
A lot of theseJ (b)(7)(C) that just 2
required basically format changes -- bringing them up 3
to the latest (inaudible) of the processing program, 4
break up some of the super-long sentences into things 5
that made sense.
So it was a
terrifically 6
administrative function.
And so she was cranking out 7
lots and lots of I(b)(7)(¢)
looking very, very 8
productive.
9 So the appearance was because of the --
10 the site (inaudible) and productivity is equivalent to 11 professionalism in in an area, it kind of swamped 12 here in it's
-- and I think it has been way for a very 13 long time.
So because of this ability of hers to 14 apparently put out lots of I(b)(7)(¢)
she looked like (b)(7)(C) 15 she was s star And so, that would 16 that is one aspect and one reason why she would 17 have been put in been put in charge.
18 She's not hard on the eyes at all.
And 19 she I think caters a lot to that.
So --
and she was 20 you know --
in a mood of wanting to move up.
So 21 doing lots of things it took to move up, she put 22 herself in those positions to -- to do that which was 23
-- which is fine, but watching a lot of very competent 24 technically qualified people not being promoted'while 25 she was being promoted and the perception being she NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
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io 26 1
was being promoted because of her competence in that 2
realm that she wasn't.
That was a little galling to 3
all of us.
So she came over from the (inaudible) 4 group from a (b)(7)(C)
Iwhich is a --
a word 5
processor effectively.
And she came in as a(b)(7)(C) 7 (b)
Ash m
6 (7)( and she moved right up through there very rapidly.
7 And she really didn't have the qualifications to be I(b)(7)(C) 8 considered a Iin anything 9
maintenance other than maintenances, administrative 10 mechanism of gettingi b))c) through SAP.
I1 CS R.
SPEC.
AGENTII(bI)(7) 1 Okay.
All 12 right.
Okay.
I think I understand what you're saying 13 about how she got to where she was.
It took a very 14 narrow focus on what she was doing.
And she got 15 (inaudible) for her productivity based on what she was 16 doing in there --
that narrow focus.
17 Yes.
And she was a favorite.
18 Okay?
Because she --
she would giv whateverjZ 19 said.
if he said change aI(b)(7)(C) like this, boom, 20 it would get changed like this.
Regardless of what 21 any programmatic or procedural policies were in place 22 to prevent that from happening, she would give him 23 what he wanted.
Those who did not giveb)7(C) what he 24 wanted were pushed back.
That was the context.
We 25 were pushing back on him.
That happened to me.
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27 1
went into his office with (b)(7)(c)
I said, 2
I need to ensure you -- or ensure that you understand 3
this is doing something other than what it is being 4
called for elsewhere.
- Yes, I understand.
Go do it.
5 He signed for it, and it would be done.
6
[SR. SPEC. AGENT[
So she was 7
essentially bypassing procedural protocol and getting 8
what he wanted and you guys wouldn't?
J(b)(7)(C)J 9
That's predominantly true, 10 yes.
[1 SR.
SPEC.
AGENT[ b)(7)(c)
Okay.
12
[(b)(7)(C And r )(7)(C) was the 13 type of person who would support that environment.
14 SR. SPEC.
AGENT So I guess 15 what I'm hearing is I don't want to put words in (b)(7)(C) 16 your mouth but when had somebody working 17 under him as a guy or I as long 18 as they did what he wanted them to do, everything was 19 fine.
But from the other people belowo w
20 coming up, that didn't go so well with b)(7)(c)
(b)(7)(C) 21 Right.
Even though we 22 (inaudible).
The mantra around here is question --
23 question procedures.
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level, and it would come back to haunt you.
I-RE3(7)(CF. 1 2
jS1Z. SPEC. AGENT IJ So in the way 3
thatb7)(C) treatedI(b)(7)(c) and treated yourself 4
and possibly other employees was based on the fact 5
that you had a questioning attitude and he didn't 6
questioning attitudes and he wanted you to do what he 7
wanted done in the procedural steps?
8 (b)(7)(C)
I Yes.
9 lSR. SPEC.
AGENT I(b)(7)(C)
Okay.
Do you 10 feel he treated worse than anybody else 11 because he did that?
)7)(C) 12 rIYes.
13 ISR.
SPEC. AGENT
()7)C Okay. Do you 14 feel he treated I(b)(7)(c) worse than you or anybody 15 else that did that?
Ib 7)CJ(b)(7)(C) 16
[
He treated the same as 17 me and different from others.
18 (SR.
SPEC.
AGENTI (b)(7)(c)
Okay.
So I 19 guess I'm just trying to --
J~)7)(C) 20 r
I And I
can' t answer about 21 others who gavelJpushback that I didn't personally 22 witness.
23
ýR-SPEC.
AGENT N
Okay.
24 r
)C)
But I
saw it happen with 25 And again, the preponderance of evidence since NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
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-c 29 1
lyl (7)(C) 7by()(c) and others is seeing that it's_-
2 it's to the same tune.
3 PR. SPEC. AGENT[
So a level of 4
retaliation, if you would, from jcame back --
5 was based on a lot of pushback was given to him by you 6
and I(b)(7)(C) and people in those positions?
(b)(7)(C) 7 11 Yes.
8 ER. SPEC.
AGENT bJ Okay.
All 9
right.
10 And it you know --- it 11 really quashes your desire to provide feedback because 12 it cost me it cost me.
.3
- R.
SPEC.
AGENT
[7J Okay.
And (b)(7)(C) 14
- again, I know you weren't here when [
was 15 suspended, but did he go into any detail about that 16 with you about what happened?
17 My understanding of that is 18 that he called him in and said you --
that he had --
19 that he was being counseled and --
for what he had 20 said at a group meeting to the maintenance director 21 four months prior to that.
And that because of that, 22 he was given a week -- going to be given a week off.
23 So which to me was like --
I mean, when they gave me 24 my needs improvement performance appraisal with having 25 no documented foundation prior to that and they did NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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Il f
Er 30 1
basically the same thing to it's like --
I 2
still can't believe that they have the -- the Edison 3
upper management and I'm --
- Edison, not SCE 4
hasn't done something about that because it is it's 5
a violation of basic human principles.
You're given 6
a week off because I was told to give you a week off.
7 There's something just really basically wrong there.
8 The director didn't like what you said, and I'm 9
counseling you for that.
You're getting a week off.
10 And what he said was -- you know -- to the 11 director was that he was in error about some of the 12 things that he was saying at the meeting.
And that 13 was about it.
They didn't want to hear it.
That came 14 back.
15 So that that was a
a separate
- ()7)(C)
]
16 function.
But that came down throug So again, 17 when I was in supporting the employees who are trying 18 to keep management out of the a noncompliance 19 environment, we were getting hammered and got 20 hammered for doing what he's been told to do.
21 FR. SPEC.
AGENTJ W(7)(c)
Do you feel 22 that liI--
and I know that you didn't work for him 23 do you think that 77)(
was on his own 24 being disruptive or being severe or was it 25 mostly directed by through him to be that way?
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C-31 1
(b)(7)(c)
My belief is that he was 2
implementing O policy.
Whether it came directly F~came-dirct.
3 from[)Ito say go do this or he was implementing what 4
he believed l C)jould want, it was still effectively 5
the same thing.
And Zwould be doing it because of 6
Z character to curry favor wit'Z7Ii1 7
PR. SPEC. AGENTIbc So would it be 8
fair to say from what you're saying that everything --
9 not everything -- but a lot of things were (b(7) driven 10 (b)(7)(C) riven?
(b)(7)(C) 11 Yes.
12
[SR.
SPEC.
AGENTIb Okay.
(b)(7)(C) 13 So if you wanted to head 14 south, you pushed back.
If you wanted to head north, 15 you agreed.
And you implemented things in the same 16 fashion.
So it was -- yes, it was quite the dichotomy 17 there as -- the style of Edison says they're doing and 18 what we were actually experiencing.
19
[SR.
SPEC.
AGENTIZb)(7)(c)
Okay.
And I I(b)(7)(c) 20 think I'd ask l
this.
I'll ask you this.
Was 21 there any time or any thought of going higher thanE 22 D
to express your discontent with the ways things 23 were going?
Or did you?
[(b)(7)(C)I 24
- Well, for --
for my needs 25 improvement performance appraisal, I went toland NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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IC-32 1
said he he said he wasn't going to change it 2
basically because he's the one that called it that 3
way.
I went to his -- and I says well, I'm going to 4
go to your boss and talk to him about it.
He said go 5
ahead.
Talk to whoever you want to.
6 So I went down that path also.
I went to 7
his path and I went through the Edison FOR program --
8 (inaudible) program.
9
[SR.
SPEC. AGENTZ Okay.
10
@R. SPEC.
AGENT r Folks on i
resolution program.
12
[SR.
SPEC.
AGENT1b)(7)(C)
Okay.
13 Which is supposed to be an 14 employee mechanism of going to an independent group of 15 best international supervisors and managers and having 16 them take a look at it.
They didn't -- they didn't 17 want to see it.
18
[SR. SPEC. AGENTE)
Was that just 19 for your appraisal or for all the concerns that you 20 had that you took there?
21 That was --
that was for the 22 appraisal for the --
(inaudible) that they knew 23 about our concerns --
allegations letter.
24
[SR. SPEC.
AGENT T
(b)I)(C)
I know that 25 there was the concerns about the away the human NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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-1 33 1
environment and then the way things were going down in I(b)(7)(C) 2 your group.
You and put a letter together 3
or you agreed on a letter.
And I don't know if it got 4
past I(b)(7)(c)
ý o r (b)(7)(C)
(b)(7)(C) 5 1
fij No, we didn't no, the 6
letter did not go to Edison management.
7 SR.
SPEC.
AGENTII(bI)(C)
Okay.
Ib)(7)(C)I 8
It didn't go through the 9
Edison NSC nuclear safety concerns.
10
[SR.
SPEC.
AGENT 1(b)(TC)
Okay.
II It went to the resident 12 inspector --
13
[SR. SPEC.
AGENT c(b)(7)(c)
Okay.
14 because we had no 15 confidence in the safety concerns program to resolve 16 anything.
17
[R. SPEC.
AGENTZ{b)T)c)
- think that 18 was my question.
If you had said you've got this 4(b)(7)(C) 19 safety concerns program, we've god Iand 20
[(j Can we go higher than this?
SCE 21 management -- you did not go that high.
You went the 22 NRC route instead of going the SCE route?
(b)(7)(C) 23 Yes.
But there had been --
24 had written notifications addressing the --
the 25 environment that we were in.
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34 1
LSR. SPEC. AGENT["C Right, right.
2 Okay.
- Okay, 3
- 1 So he had that was 4
independent.
And I -- he addressed a few things if I
5 remember in that notification that were pretty 6
specific.
Okay?
So that was -- that was similar to 7
but not exactly what you were asking.
8 ER. SPEC. AGENTL Right.
(~b)(7)(C) 9 1But it was a mechanism of 10 moving away from the chain of command about the issues 11 we had there while our letter to the NRC was going 12 through the process.
13
[SR. SPEC.
AGENT [
Okay.
Yes.
14 I know he had put some information to the notification 15 process.
I read that.
But I don't know if there's 16 any other mechanism that you guys had to go above --
17 go to upper management saying this is what we're 18 doing, it's not right.
I(b)(7)(c) 19 171CThere had been and that was 20 another issue that was kind of tightened our jaws a 21 little bit in that with the new maintenance director 22 that (inaudible) came in, he pretty much implemented 23 a closed-door policy as opposed to the prior directors 24 who had an open-door policy such that you could go in, 25 close the door and talk to them.
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a if 1
2 3
4 5
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 may not change after that or he may -- that person may or may not tell you why he can or can't or won't do something, but at least you could go and if it was --
if you weren't satisfied, you could say I need to go talk --
you know --
or I'm going to go talk to the vice president.
And pretty much it was knock yourself out.
FIZ(
(phonetic) now who had come in prior to that or in that era, he also had a (inaudible) spring open door -- for lack of a better terminology.
You could get their open door, but --
you know --
it was --
it was pretty well broadcast that *that he didn't really want to hear without some kind of foundational work up to it.
You couldn't just go in and sit down at your desk and talk to him which was different from prior vice presidents.
[SR. SPEC.
AGENT Okay.
EI)(7)(C)
SibEZ)
(phonetic),
he was maybe the last great go-in-and-sit-down-and-gripe-at-him-type guy.
[SR.
SPEC.
AGENTTI)I)(C)
Okay.
I So that was a long time ago.
So these are the sorts of things where you go and the --
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36 1
of communication channels has been one of the issues 2
of the chill -- the chilled work environment and the 3
lack of confidence in the nuclear safety concerns 4
environment because the common perception on nuclear 5
safety concerns program is that they're a mechanism to 6
keep people from talking to you.
7
[SR.
SPEC.
AGENT 11b)(7)(C)
Okay.
I )(7)(C) 8 And that they're a mouthpiece 9
and maybe an earpiece for upper management.
That's 10 the perception.
I don't necessarily believe that it 11 is completely true.
But that's the perception because 12 there are issues there and that things get talked 13 about in general.
14 So --
again, that was part of the and 15 I think continues to be part of the environment here 16 with the -- the chilled environment that this -- this 17 lack of confidence in the communication channels and 18 the mechanisms of addressing actual concerns.
It 19 suppresses people from doing so.
That's one of the 20 reasons I signed my name to the document and that the 21 chilled work environment causes an aspect of safety 22 conscious work environment to go away.
You're not 23 going to really address rising issues until they 24 become an issue because you're being suppressed from 25 doing that.
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t.C-&
1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 37 That's what I saw.
And I from the feedback I'm getting, it went south after I left.
Not good for me as a civilian living downwind, not good.
So that's why I was more than willing to come up here and talk with you guys because I believe it's the same if not worse than when I was here.
FR. SPEC.
AGENTb(
Okay.
do you have any questions?
EPECIAL AGENTb No, I don't.
PR.
SPEC.
AGENT 1(b)(7)(C) first I want to thank you for coming up tonight.
I know you said it's on your personal time.
I appreciate you coming up.
I only have a few other questions and then we'll be done.
Have I
or any other NRC employee threatened you or promise you anything in return for your testimony here today?
I(b)(7)(C)
N o.
LR. SPEC. AGENI(b)(7)(C) jave you given this statement freely and voluntarily?
(b)(7)(C)
IY s 7Yes..
[SR. SPEC.
AGENT1(b)(7)(c)
Okay.
We're about to close the record.
Anything I haven't asked you about this, anything else you haven't said or NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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4; ',.
MW 38 1
anything that we need clarification on you think needs 2
to go in the record?
3(b)(7)(C)
On the record concerning 4
issues, is that what you're asking?
5
ýR. SPEC. AGENT 1bI7)C Yes.
Ib)(7)(C) 6 7
Okay.
Because I have other 7
issues from when I was around.
They somewhat overlap 8
in the mechanism of the NRC's performance for issues 9
that we raised and how they have been addressed.
10 But to answer your question about this 11 issue for no.
12
[SR. SPEC. AGENTZc Okay.
Okay.
13 We're going to go off the record.
This interview is 14 concluded at approximately 1:52 p.m. on September 28, 15 2011.
16 (Whereupon, at 1:52 p.m.,
the interview 17 was concluded.)
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United St7ates Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
Name of Proceeding: Interview of I(b)(7 )(C)I Docket Number:
4-2011-024 Location:
San Clemente, California were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings as recorded on tape(s) provided by the NRC.
(b)(7)(C)
L toicla2 Transcribe*
Neal R. Gross & Co.,
Inc.
4-201 Vi 0e24 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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