ML061800025
| ML061800025 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Salem, Hope Creek  |
| Issue date: | 10/06/2003 |
| From: | NRC/OI |
| To: | |
| References | |
| 1-2003-051F, FOIA/PA-2005-0194, NRC-1136 | |
| Download: ML061800025 (86) | |
Text
x Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLItAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
I1 ntervi ew 41 Docket Number:
Location:
1-2003-051F Hancocks Bridge, New Jersey Date:
Tuesdsay, October 6, 2003 Work Order No.:
NRC-1 136 Pages NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers Information in this record -,W.,.4-1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
in accordance with the'reedom of IntoWillWngton, D.C. 20005 Act, exemptions 7c.
FOIA-6", ýý/
-Cr 5/
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10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS INTERVIEW x
IN THE MATTER OF:
INTERVIEW OF
- Docket No.
I-1 A
MN:
1-2003-051F (CLOSED) x Tuesday, October 6, 2003 The above-entitled interview Was conducted at (Time not provided).
BEFORE:
Senior Special Agent JEFF TEATOR ALSO PRESENT:
NRC SENIOR RESIDENT INSPECTOR DAN ORR P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the room.
decision.
three?
Jeff.
,.4.
(time not provided) gj~A ain, Ithir I
honetic) was in SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
40jThat's a think.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
- And, It was really an office SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Sure, yes.
Was he challenging anybody else more in particular of those I don't remember. I don't really remember, SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
Again, I think I asked you this before but I'm going to ask you it again, was there, to your knowledge, was there any pressure being put on that decision to not shut down and fix the valve, was there any pressure being applied from senior management up in Newark to not let that happen, turn the plant back on and We'll go forward?
Not that I know of. Not that I know of, and I've never - I've never heard of that happening here either. So, you know.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
Did you make a slatement to the effect - I'm getting a little:,,
more direct with you now-rhat's fine.
(
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1 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: -but it's just to probe this 2
some more, because this issue is something that the Commission is interested in, 3
right, Dan?
4 MR. ORR: Yes, absolutely.
5 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Did you make a statement 6
to the effect of, that if we had not gone in and fixed that valve, instead turned the 7
plant back on and you moved forward, that that could be grounds for the NRC 8
taking the keys away to this place? Words to that effect.
9 j 1, don't remember saying it, but I could - I 10 could - that would not be out of character for me to, you know, say something 11 to get the attention if I thought that the meeting was going the wrong way.
12 So, my answer to you is, I don't remember saying that quote.
13 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
14
.I can tell you, Jeff, that ifI was in a-ifI was 15 in a three-hour meeting on something like this, and I started getting concerned 16 that the meeting was going the other way, or that the decision was going the 17 other way, yeah, that's a card I'd play to get people's attention.
18 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Did you play that card?
19 like I said, I can't remember saying that 20 quote.
21' SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
22 can't remember saying that quote.
23 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: At the meeting.
24 ght.
25 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 at it, I mean -
- j7ut, yeah, because that's-I mean, well, look SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I know.
CO.-
W you find a bulb in the seat (phonetic).
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: The noise when the valve was stroking was something.
Well, just play the scenario the other way around, and we go to shut down a month later and it wouldn't be good.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
VFor anyone.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Why were you going to shut down a month later, for the outage?
efuel outage, yeah.
SRk. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Was there any discussion about, let's wait until the outage before we go in and check the valve? Did that discussion occur during this three hour or so meeting?
I'm laughing because I can't remember - I can't remember w o is saying what in the meeting.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
ecause I'mjust kind of waiting for the right decision to come.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
So, I'm in idle most of the time.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Was that part of0f*
challenge to the group, we've got an outage in the month, if there's something in the valve we'll go in and find out then.
I can't remember him saying that. I can't remember him bringing that up. I don't remember those words.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You don't remember or could it have been said?
I mean, it could have, I don't remember it.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
You wanted to ask something?
MR. ORR: Were there any considerations for production, besides just the obvious, coming up in power, like the fuel reload analysis, right, that was potentially jeopardized? My question is, were those considerations taking place along and factored into the decision making?
- jYes.
I remember - I remember that being a concern.
MR. ORR: Okay.
And, the fuel exposure, because that was a month before the outage.
MR. ORR: Right.
I don't -. I don't remember that being discussed in the meeting, I remember that being a question out tha*
(phonetic) and the group wanted, you know, would we need to run for another week to fully deplete the fuel for the next cycle, and what would be the - what would be the impact of that.
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1 MR. ORR: Okay.
2 But, I don't remember that influencing the 3
decision in the meeting.
4 MR. ORR: Okay.
5 How about any of the other licensed operators present, did 6
they express any concern to you over undue pressure, they being the license 7
holders being challenged for what you see as kind of a simple safety decision?
8 I don't remember, no, I don't remember who 9
the licensed indivi idgl was that night. Whoever it was spent very little time in 10 the room, to my memory. They may have been in and out, but kind of left it to 11 d I thin was there. But, that's appropriate.
12 MR. ORR: Okay.
13 I can't remember who it was either.
14 k"R& SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I've got to take a short 1.5 break for a minute. I have to hit the men's room. It's 20 after 6:00.
16 (Whereupon, at 6:20 p.m., a recess until 6:30 p.m.)
17 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay, it's almost 6:30, a 18 couple more things I wanted to go over with you l
19 Coming out of the decision regarding the bypass valve, where 20 eventually the right decision was made, did that leave you with a feeling, 21 though, that just the fact that they were retaining some of the ideas there, I mean, 22 we didn't get into all the specifics, but there were people in there who thought 23 it was clear black and white we need to shut down and fix the valve, investigate 24 and then fix the valve if needed. An challenging the group, 25 challenging the OPS (phonetic) people, challenging the group. Did the fact that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 senior management, in the form o4 Was challenging in that way, did 2
that make you wonder about where he was coming from regarding safety 3
perspectives?
4
'm probably going to bejumping ahead, but 5
I feel the need to to answer your question on this one. I answered beforeA 6
was challenging.
7 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
8 And, I saw that that's what he was doing.
- 9.
Where I got frustrated, and I mentioned this before, on this recire issue where I 10 o got frustrated to the point, I sort of let that linger, you know, the thing from the 11 bypass valve.
12 MR. ORR: Okay.
13
'Because I knew what he was doing, he was 14 challenging. Quite frankly, I'm going to use the word, I thought it was just 15 inefficient. I thought we should have just made the decision and gone on. I said 16 that before in this interview.
17 But, with the recire decision, I sort of let that stay inside me 18 with the recire decision. I remember having a conversation withiafterwards, 19 which was after the bypass valve decision, and saying - I said something to the 20 effect to him that, you know don't understand how we can linger so long 21 over this shut down issue with the bypass valves, and then you get something 22 here on the other side, with this recire pump or whatever the issue was, and we 23 had options available to us, and then we lay a - put a line in the sand and say we 24 are not going over that. I told him I thought it sent mixed messages, and I was 25 upset by that.
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1 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: How did he respond?
2
.jWe talked it out, and he said, well, you 3
know, you can'ttake it that way. And, I rememben saying something to the 4
effect, if I remember properly, that, you know, what we've already talked about 5
in here, that, you know, my job is to challenge people, is to challenge the 6
organization, so they are, you know, always thinking and fully walking through 7
all the different options on the issue. And, I was okay with that when he went 8
through with that.
9 I hope that answered your original question, but it actually 10 extended into the second example as well.
11 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
12 When you told hat you felt a mixed message was being 13 sent, did you get specific to him as to what you saw as a mixed message?
14 Specific as far as my statement that, you 15 know, we had the bypass valve issue with the spoilt in the pipe, and then we 16 have this other issue with recire, and that can be, that in itself can be a mixed 17 message where we spend all that time on the bypass valve and then we stop on 18 the recirc pump, that can be a mixed message to folks on the management team.
19 And, he was, you know, he felt that that was a fair conversation.
20 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I'm trying to understand -
21 ay.
22 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR:
- the mixed message 23 thing. What was the-24 We have what to some was a safety issue.
25 R. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: The valve.
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- Yes.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
A nd, let's just go make the decision and be on with it type discussions. It sounds fairly simple, but who is in charge --
(Whereupon, bad section of tape.)
I can't remember exact time lines, but I remember one -
(Whereupon, bad section of tape.)
We have Uho is functioning as the plant manager, but really has all three units reporting to the Vice President of Operations as well.
MR. ORR: Who would that be?
- d then, of course, the Vice President of Operations, and it seemed, I'm going to use this as the example, it seemed like, and I don't mean to jump on one individual, it seemed like at that time it was always decision by committee, and. I'm using this example, and I'll just kind of keep talking, and, therefore, you get opinions on what the right thing to do is, as opposed to the leader making a decision and everyone providing the technical input on what the right thing to do is. It sounds like a simple difference, but it could be - it could be emotional in these types of examples.
MR. ORR: Did this get emotional, talk about this valve issue, in March of this year?
I think in those March issues I would use that example on the bypass valve. There was - during the shutdown there was a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 10 Ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 diesel exhaust manifold that needed to be repaired, that we clearly didn't put our best foot forward on, and there was another issue on the recirc system. If we need to either stop for a second or I might need Dan's memory help, but I remember that being in that same time frame, the decision to start up from that outage after we fixed the bypass valve with -
MR. ORR: My memory is, you came down for a recirc pump seal replacement, right? You had a bad acting seal, you came into a forced outage.
We started up and there were some decisions about not starting up because of something on a recire pump. It was another emotional issue.
MR. ORR: Yes.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Same shutdown?
es. There was three events all in one, Jeff, and probably as I keep talking it will come to me.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
I apologize for not having it right now.
1All three of those, and I don't know whether this has anything to do with what you are looking into or not, but all three of those were the management by committee routine. There was a lot of strong feelings about what we should or shouldn't do, and there was long discussions within the Hope Creek Station before decisions were ultimately made.
MR. ORR: Did you view any of those discussions as being -
or any positions as being inappropriate, going against the safety culture?
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1 j*Not ultimately, but with the way that the 2
committee, if you will, for lack of a better term, and we can talk about that more 3
if you want on follow-up, I am not one to spend a long time debating the issue 4
as far as I like to see what the facts are and what the technical people have and 5
then go do the right thing and put the plant in the right place. And, what I saw 6
was that we were debating issues, for example, with a bypass valve, this is 7
specifically what I remember, Jeff, that the technicians went down, the valve 8
was stroked, and it was not a closed indication, and there was redundant reactor 9
parameters that indicated that the valve was, indeed, open. Okay?
10 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
11
- d, the valve squealed when it stroked. In 12 other words, something was bound in it.
13 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Stroked means shut.
14 can't remember if it was open or shut, but 15 16 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
17
-in either direction there was mechanical 18 noise, metal-to-metal noise.
19 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
20 D_ nd, there was quite a debate over what the 21 right thing to do was.
22 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: What was, really, 23 according to like the plant license, you know, and the requirements, what Was 24 the right thing to do?
7C".
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. Shut the plant down and go into the valve 2
and find out what's wrong.
3 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
4 Did that happen?
5 es.
6 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
70
.es.
8 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
9 W ut, okay, now I don't know what your -
10 obviously, what your input is, but I comeup with this example and kind of cast 11 my line in the water for you, because of the length of discussions that went on, 12 and, you know, people talked to me outside the room after this discussion would 13 go on for four hours, and we'd talk about who was there if that's important or 14 whatever.
15 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes, that would help, the 16 major players, thepeople putting forward the position.
17 as there, myself, this is to 18 the best of my memoryn I mentioned his tit*41M 19 (phonet AM this is to the best ofmy memory now('M 20 thetime 21 1 low@ I'm not sure -
22 SR. SPECIAL AGENTTEATOR: Somebody from corporate?
23 don't remember.
24 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: By phone?
25 0
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SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
2 A*.Q d, you know, we debated the issue, and 3
I think the fact that we debated it, and I'll try the other two examples, too, I think 4
one of them is a different subject, Jeff, but the fact that we debated it when your 5
senses tell you, hey, we really ought to do this and get on with it -
6 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: "Do this" meaning shut the 7
plant down and find out what the problem with the valve is?
8 9
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
10
- could lead one to believe-why does that 11 take so long, are we really being as safe as we should be.
12 And, once again, I want to reiterate, the right thing was done.
13 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
- 14Okay, operating in accordance with the 15 license and the right thing to do. I mean, there was a bolt that was found in the 16 valve from the seat of a sister valve on the same bank.
17 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Which side of the equation 18 were you on at that meeting? Were you on the side, hey, we need to shut down 19 and find out what's wrong with the valve?
20 ell, my emotion was that I thought it was 21 sort of silly that we were even talking about it.
22 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: So, to answer my question 23 24 thought we should have been shutting 25 down.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A -r SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay, and who was voicing the opposing position the most strongly of the group?
My memory is tha was making sure that we had - was challenging the team that we had all angles, if you will, or had thought of all the possibilities, before we went and made the decision. And, that was his job.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
,.Ji'o make sure that we fully understood the issue.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Who else was on his side of the equation in that group? Do you remember?
I don't really remember anybody being -
taking sides per se.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
I remember king questions, and people either stating what they knew about it or having to go out and get information and bring it back.
And so, I wouldn't say it was a taking sides issue, as much as it was do we really know what we are doing here.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
o, and I think some of that emotion was people saying, hey, this is pretty clear, bu ust wanted to make sure.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: How long did that discussion go on? I mean, people were thinking it was a Clear-cut decision, how long did the discussion go on before, ultimately -
I/"
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1 hours1.157407e-5 days <br />2.777778e-4 hours <br />1.653439e-6 weeks <br />3.805e-7 months <br />.
2 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: - two hours.
3 That would be my guess, maybe three.
- 4 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Was there -
5 it was evening I remember.
6 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: - was there like an action 7
statement clocked and started at that point?
8 I don't think so.
9 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: No?
10
- ,,7'm not sure, though.
11 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
12
.don't think so. We may have been below 13 the power level that's required, it may have been below 25 percent. I'm not sure.
3.4 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Because of these other two 315 things that were going on at that point?
- 16.
o o
17 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You said that there were 18 three issues.
- 19s, bu it wasn't due to the other two items.
20 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay, -we'll come back to 21 those other two.
22 If that's of interest to you.
23 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes, it is.
24 e plant conditions, and I'm not sure ofthe 25 narratives and all, but would tell you if we were actually in an action statement.
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'16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 For that particular action statement, as an experience on the unit, the reactor -
that action statement doesn't apply below 25 percent thermal power. I know we were low on power, but I don't know where we were.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I'm going to ask you how you felt regardin osition, did you feel his challenging the staff in that meeting was - went over the line?
M11 don't think so.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: No?
I don't think so, I just thought it was - I thought it was more than what we needed to go over. We had a lot of work to do to turn the thing around.
I'm trying to remember exactly, there was two meetings in the OSC, and this was one of them. Yes.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And, this meeting is regarding theHo.pe Creek turbine bypass valve issue?
S at's correct.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
S Di Iake any statements to the effect of where he was -- if he was getting direction from anyone above him regarding his position, challenging this? Let's make sure we know everything.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Did he make any statements to that effect, meaning he was getting pressure from corporate to not shut the plant down, did he give any indication that that occurred here?
- 2.
Corporate Newark?
, ((
I,-
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- 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes, or the CNO here at the site, I guess that's mould report to.
- SOh, not to my knowledge.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Either/or.
J Not to my knowledge. When you said corporate I - relative to operations, operating activities, they are not - they are not what I would say involved. So - and when I think of corporate I'm thinking of executive officers in Newark.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes, that would be above honetic) used to be.
NO ght, was theýW at that time.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: But, he would have reported to the most senior people in the whole corporation.
e was a direct report t I believe.
reports t~
Mo there's someone betwee iJ SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
But, when #9*)was
- here, reported straight to
,c-~'.----
at's correct.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: W still here when this issue occurred, this bypass valve issue?
wo rm 'Yes.
jleft in May, my memory is he left in May, and this occurred in March.
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1 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Do you recall him 2
providing input into where this decision should go, whether let's shut the plant 3
down, check the valve out, or let's continue, let's debate, let's review?
4 1one to my knowledge.
5 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
6 Did any of these other people who were present at the meeting 7
that you are recalling, *ere's a license 8
holder there you can't recall the person's name, did any of those people tell you 9
that they though allenging or direction was inappropriate, sent the 10 wrong message? I mean, this is all personal kind of stuff, I mean, you have 11 people's feelings, whether they thought that ent over the line, did any 12 of those people tell you that they felt that way in how he handled and was 13 directing the team and challenging the team on this issue?
14 don't remember specifically on that, no.
15 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Because everybody has 16 their own opinions and feelings.
17 gt 18 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Andthat's a little bit what 19 this is about.
20 tght.
21 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Do people feel like they 22 can bring up concerns?
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I, 1
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Do they feel they can push 2
their position if it's a conservative position, without suffering some impact by 3
their management?
4
- ee, the other thing, Jeff, that I wanted to 5
bring up, and this may be a little bit of a shift gear, but it also might give you 6
incite and answer some questions for you, is - let me kind of go for a little bit 7
more, all right?
8 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes, yes.
9 So, we do this, we make this decision on this 10 bypass valve thing.
1x SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You find a bolt down there 12 in the valve.
13 Yes, then we are starting back, we're getting 14 ready to start back up. I'm doing this from my memory. There is something on 15 the recirc system that's holding us back from starting back up, and it's not tech 16 spec related. It's killing me, I can't -
17 MR. ORR: I don't remember anything.
18 Well, you wouldn't have paid too much 19 attention to it, Dan-20 IMR. ORR: Not at the Hope Creeksite.
21 because it wasn't-that's true, too, because 22 it Wasn't license related.
23 However, it was something, it will come to me, it was 24 something that was not a safety issue for the reactor, and at some point, even if NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 I have to go off the record or call you afterwards, it will come to me, it was not a safety issue for the reactor and wasn't necessary for the start up of the unit.
Can we just stop the tape for one second?
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.
.jt's just I want to remember.
'SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: It's 5:08, 1 just wanted to put the time on there.
(Whereupon, at 5:08 p.m., a recess until 5:10 p.m.)
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. We're back on the record. It's about 5:10.
you were trying to recall this recirc problem that you recalled'holding the plant back up from going back up to full power. You were trying to recall that.
A ctually, I asked Jeff to go off the record because I was trying to recall what the specific subject was, and I wanted to talk to Dan Orr. But, I cannot recall, but it was an issue with the recirc pumps that was a non-safety-related issue. It was something that could have been addressed during the start-up sequence, and we had a tremendous amount of difficulty, once again, making the decision.
Now, in this particular case - I cannot recall what the subject was, in this paiticular case my feelings were that the right thing to do, it had no safety implications whatsoever, tech spec or otherwise, was to start the reactor up and monitor it, and we could remove the pump - I remember having the technical thought that we could remove the pump from service if necessary at 1*-)(t -1Ck NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 an intermediate power level during the start-up sequence and safely perform the 2
maintenance evolution if we had to, restart the pump and continue on.
3 And, once again, the meeting attendees, this was several days 4
after the bypass valve discussion, the meeting attendees were, basically, the 5
same, and we actually held off the reactor start up to fix that issue.
6 And, there was some - there was some emotion around that.
7 Now, that may not be a safety conscious work environment type thing from the 8
NRC perspective, but the emotions of the frustration that management could feel 9
about this meeting, or. excuse me, decision by committee type thing, I think is 10 another example.
11 If you need the actual subject I'm sure that can be found 12 through the corrective action program or operator logs.
13 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You've gone back to that 14 twice now, decision by committee.
15Yes.
16 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And, correct me if I'm 17 wrong, if I'm hearing you right senior management here at the site didn't really 18 like that management by committee, they wanted what? Am I right, is that what 19 you are saying?
20 No, I didn't-no, I'm not saying that. I think 21 it evolved, that type of behavior evolved because you didn't clearly have in the 22 organizational makeup who the right decision maker was.
23 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: The plant manager.
24 Right.
25 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: For each plant.
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1 Right.
2 And so, it evolved over the course of time into decision by 3
committee.
4 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
5 0
d, there were those who really, you know, 6
and myself included - well, let me say the sentence first - there were those who 7
really had no decision-making authority on some ofthese issues in their present 8
positions, yet, everybody is in the room providing input. I mean, it's good to 9
have that input, but, you know, without the clear authority you can get the 10 emotional decision, or the emotion feelings around that.
11 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: It sounds like here in this 12 recire issue, though, whereas in the first issue you thought it was clear cut, they 13 should have shut down, checked the valve out, and then go forward.
14 j7Right.
15 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: In this second issue, where 16 you are beginning to come back up to power after fixing the valve -
17
- jCorrect.
18 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: -youthinkthis isn'treally 19 a problem, let's increase power and move towards full power.
20 jThere was actually beginning to pull for 21 criticality and then starting the start-up sequence. There was no - I had no 22 concerns with - what I do recall is, I had no concerns whatsoever, as did others 23 in the group, with the operation of the recirc system and its ability to cool the 24 core.
C-"
25 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
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1 Did eel that way on that issue, do you remember?
2 4 My memoiy was he wanted it fixed.
3 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes, well, yeah, everybody 4
wants it fixed.
5 No, he wanted it fixed before we started up.
6 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. So, he was trying 7
to put players in spots here. It's not always easy.
8
, Correct.
9 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: But, it seems like 10 Non this issue, was more conservative, meaning he wanted -
11 To fix whatever the equipment was before 12 a rod was pulled, yes, you could say that, yes.
13 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Whereas others, including 14 yourself, thought it was okay to increase power the way it was, based on your 15 feeling that the recire system was going to do its job.
16 Right.
17 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right, that's interesting.
18 Once again, you know, for the technical 19 matter, and any judge on that with the NRC, you'd have to get the actual issue 20 from the records.
21 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I defer to these guys.
22 Got t.
23 SR. 'SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
24 So, those are two issues around the March time frame.
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1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10
.11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And, you mentioned a diesel.
""ý I actually have two other issues. I guess there's four issues, and if I'm hitting it, Jeff, or not, hopefully, I'm giving you the background.
Another Hope Creek example on diesel exhaust, and I can talk about that if you'd like.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes, please.
And then, the other example that I have is, we had a bout with grassing at Salem in March, it was March.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Can you do the diesel one first?
Sure.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Is that good?
NO Sure.'
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right, time frame?
it was before the bypass valves and the recire we fixed this issue during this outage. So, the actual exhaust go through, I'll say it's March to April time frame, probably issue, because issues that I'll March.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Of'03?
SC es.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay, but before the bypass issue.
\\1*i<
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Z.U 1
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
2
.Definitely.
3 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right. And, this is a 4
Hope Creek issue again?
5 Yes.
6 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
7
.Now, this one doesn't-this one, for me, my 8
story doesn't put a bunch of people in a room. I do have some perspective on it.
9 The exhaust off of, I believe, it was the B (Bravo) diesel generator. There's a 10 series of, it's a manifold, just like a huge muffler on your car.
- 11.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
12 And, it goes out the exhaust out the roof.
13 There are expansion bellows, wavy pieces of metal to absorb the growth, the 14 metal growth from the heat, and several of those had developed leaks.
15 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.
16 was t502 at 17 the time, I had outages and work management, work control, basically.
18 And, I didn't realize at the time how significant these leaks 19 were, and I should have. The leaks were of such a magnitude that ultimately the 20 decision was made, based on the carbon monoxide levels in the room, that they 21 were directing - they being the Operations Department - were directing the 22 equipment operators to, based on the safety input, the industrial safety input, 23 there were SCBAs in the roorri, self-contained breathing apparatus, in the room 24 to do the surveillance.
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1 So, the severity of that issue, and the need to jump on that and 2
fix that, in my opinion, at least at my level, was never fully expressed to me, in 3
such a time that my department could systematically repair the leaks or schedule 4
up a systematic repair to the leaks.
5 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: What happened then, with 6
the flow of information to your department on that issue, if you know? I mean, 7
how come you -
8 I don't know. I don't know. What I would 9
say is that, you know, I can't say it. at this level, it was never properly 10 communicated and prioritized from the Operations Department to the Work 11 Control boys. And, I mean, that may be a statement of the obvious in this case, 12 but -
13 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You don't know why? Do 14 you know why that didn't -
15 ell, I can't say it in detail. I mean, when 16 you ask me that, I'm thinking about people and notifications.
17 This thing, this thing didn't start leaking in one run, it got 18 progressively worse over - over months.
19 SR-SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: So, surveillances must 20 have identified, at some point, that there was a CO2 leak coming out of this 21 manifold.
22 23 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Carbon monoxide is -
24 gt 25 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That's carbon dioxide.
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°
1 r CO, same thing.
2 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
3 t's just like sitting in your garage with a car 4
running and the door closed.
5 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Not good.
6 0*
lThat's not good.
7 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Was the operation of the 8
diesel at that point, was it critical for the plant that that piece of equipment 9
remain in operation?
10 Absolutely.
11 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
12 Well, not in operation, to remain operable.
13 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
14 emain to be able to function, to support, 15 you know, a loss of power.
16 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Were the other diesels 17 available if that one had to be taken out of service?
18
.Yes, we could have easily scheduled that, 19 yes.
20 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
21 Yes. The thing is, Jeff, the reason I bring up 22 this story is, first of all, you know, I think it could be an example on the Safety 23 Conscious Work Environment type thing. You know, indirectly, I know that 24 caused a lot of problem and emotion for the non-licensed operators.
25 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Oh, I bet.
<C..-
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2 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Understandable.
3
- it should. And, it should. There's a lot to 4
be learned from that. The irony is, ultimately, when we went into this outage to 5
replace the recirc seal we did thisjob, and we did it, I believe, well I know it was 6
less than 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br />, and it's a 72-hour LCO. If the flag had been accurately or 7
appropriately, not accurately, appropriately raised we could have jumped all 8
over this thing and done it on line before it ever got to a situation where it was 9
such an emotional event.
10 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Were the NLOs voicing a 11 concern with this leak getting progressively worse? I mean, if there -
12 1.3I never-I never specifically talked to a non-13 licensed operator about it, because really it wasn't hitting a proper priority.
14 Now, I'm kind of up in the management chain.
15 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Sure.
16 ut, they had to have been.
17 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I would think.
18 9
With the shift supervision, they had to have 19 been.
20 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: When did you become 21 aware of this issue?
22 I knew that there was issues, and I'm going 23 back, I don't know, in January or February, I'll say one to two months before we 24 got this thing where the decision is being made. I believe that the Safety 25 Department got involved with a level to the Operations Department management NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 that the decision was made if we were going to do this in March, the surveillance 2
in March, we'd have to wear - the guys would have to wear SCBAs.
3 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
4 j\\
d, that was the point I remember where 5
myself and some other included, I remember, and to use him as 6
an example again, where what are we doing? And so -
7 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: In your mind, that issue did 8
rise up in management in an appropriate fashion?
9 "Tat's correct, that's the point I'm making 10 there, right.
11 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And, right after you came 12 to that realization, did you go back and explore why that didn't happen?
13 es.
14 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: What did you find, did you 15 find that middle level management weren't letting it rise?
16
.ere seemed to be - there seemed to be the 17 communication up from the NLOs through the shift ranks to the department 18 management didn't seem to be strong. These are my words, the whole group 19 seemed to say, let the process run its course, you know, in other words it needs 20 to be scheduled and put into some window somewhere, where in reality what 21 was going on was that this was a moving target as far as the equipment was 22 degrading from month to month, and we had to change the course. We had to 23 change the priority, and that wasn't done, and I think that's where the 24 communication channel vertically broke down, in my opinion.
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1 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Was there a particular level 2
of management where you saw that -
3 c' ant say.
4 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR:
that level of 5
prioritization couldn't - wasn't allowed to rise up?
6
-W No, I didn't see evidence of that.
7 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
8 haven't seen evidence of that.
9 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Haven't seen evidence of 10 what?
11 AI haven't seen evidence of-here's what I 12 think when I hear you say those words - I haven't seen evidence of an individual
- 13.
who is saying, no, we are not doing that, work, just get back to work, you know, 14 blah, blah, blah, I haven't seen any evidence of that.
15 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That's what I was asking.
16 Right. I haven't seen that at all. I've seen 17 more evidence of a behavior of, you know, let's get it put into the system, let 18 everything - don't permutate what the process has, when we get to it we're going 19, to fix it, and this was an example where it got'worse before we could fix it, and 20 then the communication channels weren't happened. It's getting worse, we need 21 to move it up.
22 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: To prioritize.
23
-#Right.
24 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That would come up 25 through your organization, or work control?
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1
.It would come up through OPs, and then it 2
would route to us, and they'd say, hey, look, I mean, you know, you review this 3
stuff all the time in the - well, we'll go over that in a second, because there's 4
culpability on more organization, too, here, I'm not trying to - let's let that go.
5 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Speak to what happened 6
in your organization on that issue. How come it didn't catch your organization's 7
ear earlier, and I'm not -just to understand what-because someone could have 8
got hurt here, I guess.
9 "bsolutely.
10 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Someone could have died.
.1 "Sure.
Sure, absolutely.
12 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That wouldn't have been 13 good for anybody.
14
.I think more than that what you had was, you 15 had a bunch of work arounds that were being institutionalized, where all these 16 people would go down there for the surveillance for all the different things you 17 had to monitor and do, and you had to limit access, and make sure that all these 18 controls were in place, where why not just go and fix it.
19 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: It sounds like it would 20 have been an easier thing to do.
21 Yes.
22 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And, the smarter thing to 23 do.
24 gt 25 But, you asked about my organization.
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-1.
1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.
f you go back to the NLO side of the example, and these guys that - I mean, these guys are on rotating shifts so you do it once a month, well, not the same guy is going to do it every month. Well, somebody is going to write a notification and a corrective action thing that this or that, you know, was wrong, and then now it's this, and now it's that, and the emotion you've got there. And, people who screen these things in my organization failed to put two and two together and say something themselves, like why don't they go over and say when are we going to fix this.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
so, that was disappointing on my department's behalf as well.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Hold on here, we're going to switch over to the second side. It's about 5:28.
(Tape 1, side A ends; tape 1, side B begins.)
SRL. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. We are on side B, and we were talking about the "B" diesel manifold issue. I guess it was leaking,.
and we were talking about your organization.
Were there any corrective actions put into place in your department to try not to let that happen again, to make it real - to ask it plainly?
I know you've got your corrective actions all over the place, but was there specific put in to open up the level of communication or the avenues of communication, not let that type of thing occur again?
Not specifically to this issue.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
I, \\ \\
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1 ot specifically to this issue.
2 We house an operator over here, and have done that on both 3
sides of the island, and that helps a lot to fix that.
4 I'll tell you, and I'll go back to the beginning of the interview, 5
Jeff, I think the biggest help is going back to a plant manager and department 6
manager routine, where the department managers have that support, to be able 7
to give that influence.
8 (Whereupon, bad section of tape.)
9_tOperations Department that 10 communicates. You know, and I'll come back to them with, you've got to 11 clearly articulate the problem vertically.
12 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
13
- So everybody has an opportunity to win. So, 14 we had that dialogue.
15 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
16 And, we have this in other issues as well.
17 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Do you get feedback from 18 them when you are talking to them about issues like this, have you ever gotten 19 feedback from them thit, hey, we tried to raise this up to management and got 20 slapped down?
21 0,
22 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Specific to this issue, do 23 you know if that occurred? Did any of those people say that?
24 40o, I can't remember that.
25 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
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1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 fo o, I can't remember that.
The feedback I get from them is, you know, why can't I get it fixed, is more - not I go to a certain level and it gets knocked back down, no.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You are not getting that?
No. I get, why can't I get it fixed, why does it take so long.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That's what you get.
SR. SPECIAL. AGENT TEATOR: Plain as that.
Yes, consistently.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
onsistently.
And, depending on the example, this is probably the most extreme example, this exhaust one.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes, that's an example, yes.
ut, the guy on shift, you know, would go through and say, hey, if you want to do something simple, you know, you need to go through with a structure of the work processes, what the structure of getting something changed, if that's what it is, if we don't have the funding already approved how we have to go through the funding process to get it.
And, I think there's a large element of, when you talk about NLOs in particular, of education, of downward communication, and that needs to be done. I'm talking about, you know, it's easy to come in on Friday, Saturday and Sunday night and say, oh, the things leaking again, but what it takes to get it fixed and to be properly prepared-A [
. 1/f-I-hfl
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jj 1
(Whereupon, bad section of tape.)
2 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: They are union guys, right?
3 4
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Did you come up through 5
your reactor operator or did you g~histant SRO?'
6 Mwas instant.
7 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. So, you were never 8
a union employee?
90.
10 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
11 The ROs are union here, though, right, the reactor operators?
12 yes.
13 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
14 Is there something more you want to ask about the diesel 15 manifold issue, Dan?
16 MR. ORR: No.
17 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: If there is, go ahead.
18 MR. ORR: No, I'm okay.
19 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Is there something more 20 you want to add on that diesel?
21
- 7.Not on that one, I don't think.
22 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
23 Another example if you wanted to go over 24 it.
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1 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes, you had four, there 2
was another one you were going to go over and then I'm going to go back and 3
touch on a couple of things.
5 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: But, there was a fourth 6
thing you wanted to talk about as an example of something that you think I 7
might be interested in here.
8
.Well, the Salem -
9 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: This is the grass issue, 10 right?
11
- right - the Salem station was grassing.
12 Now, this was the first week in March, and due to the weather in the northeast 13 in the winter, especially the one particularly large snow storm and the cold snap 14 afterwards, the grass in the river was tremendous. It was, for historians of this 15 site, it was, I believe, maybe I'm misquoting this, but it was orders of magnitude 16 higher than it was on April 7Li-hen the large issue there was in 1994 or 17 whatever.
18 There was a lot of operational decisions that needed to be 19 made on maintaining the unit at power.
20 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
21 Both units at power, and where to keep 22 reactor power as the grass was coming in with the tide changes, over the course 23 of what was really four of five days, and the situation degrading.
24 Ultimately, to my memory, one unit shut down and the second 25 unit, I believe, ended up at around 40 percent power, if I remember properly.
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I 1
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.
2 1I don't know, Jeff, if there was emotion 3
behind where the units were left with any people at that time, and what the 4
management decisions that were made. You mentioned in your introduction 5
production over safety.
6 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
7 And, we had conference calls. We had 8
meetings in here, it was over a weekend. We looked at the response of the non-
.9 licensed operators, again, primarily, both at the intake structure and the fellows 10 who were needing to clean the water boxes and the frequency at which they had 11 to do it, and what their conditions were.
12 And, I don't recall the level of emotion on the diesel exhaust 13 issue as, you know, here, but, once again, if I was thinking about - if I was 14 thinking about the Safety Conscious Work Environment from a worker's aspect, 15 and where would my emotions be relative to management decisions, I think that 16 could be another area as well.
17 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: The grassing issue.
18 es, for the same reasons as the diesel 19 exhaust. This thing is getting worse, why don't we just - you know, I'm kind of 20 taking it from the non-licensed operator perepect.ye primarily - why don't we 21 just shut the thing down and fix the - wait until the grass goes by, you know, 22 over the course of a couple days. I'm not as technically knowledgeable at Salem 23 as I am at Hope Creek, although I can get by.
24 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Were you directly involved 25 in the discussions surrounding this issue?
C 4(
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1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I was - I was - I partook in some of the phone calls and some of the meetings. Once again, you know, you make your decisions based on differential temperature in the condenser, the ability of pump amps and whether it's actually -the screen can actually pass enough water with all the heavy grass on it. And, it's a cyclical thing because it's tidal.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
~Okay.
And, I tend to be a supporting cast member there. Once again, you had this committee thing, a supporting task member in that type of scenario as opposed to Hope Creek because I have more experience on the unit.
But, I felt, I personally felt, beyond the non-licensed operator at that particular issue, that there seemed to be less emotion with the decisions, and I think in the same case as the bypass valve and the recire, the example on the bypass valve, the right things were done by management, it just seemed to be my memory of it less of an emotional roller coaster than say the bypass valve example at Hope Creek in March, yeah, March, later on in the month.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: So, you are speaking that from if you were an NLO, non-licensed operator, involved in this issue, you would think they would see this as a safety issue.
jj*erhaps, I'm only -
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right, it's your opinion.
it's only conjecture on my part.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
Was the right - you said the right thing was done, was it done when it should have been done? Was it done in a timely fashion?
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1 JGoing back to my memory, to my memory 2
yes. We never really challenged the plant. As a matter of fact, I take that back, 3
when we got done I felt pretty good about it.
4 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
5 I learned a lot. I felt pretty good about where 6
we left the plants and where we got through it. I thought we stayed ahead of it, 7
and I just want to say one more thing, Dan, and when we got done I thought, 8
geez, you know, a lot of that work we did on the screens to make it better 9
seemed to work. I mean, there was more things that we could do that we could 10 learn, but they seemed to work, and this system seemed to work better.
11 MR. ORR: Okay. I was just trying to clarify, you felt better 12 about the grass and the way the decisions were being made in regards to 13 grassing.
14 es.
15 MR. ORR: Compared to, or just -
16 Compared to - it just seemed to be a 17 smoother operation, I guess. Itjust seemed to be a'smoother decision-making 318 process than some of the other examples that we've had.
19 MR. ORR: Okay.
20 Was anybody emotional about the decision making that was 21 occurring for grassing? Was anybody disagreeable about the decisions that were 22 made, or do you recall?
23 LI don't think anybody was.
24 MR. ORR: Okay.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 don't think anybody was. I'm trying to -
I'm trying to think back to that, and I'd say, my memory is no.
MR. ORR: Okay.
rLike I said, and this is repetitive now, but when I did this I tried to make a list of what seemed to me could be inferred as Safety Conscious Work Environment things in 2003.
MR. ORR: Okay. All right.
Now, how about after the fact with a unit having to be manually tripped and another one run back to 40 percent, after the fact did anybody second guess the decisions that were made earlier on?
don't remember anyone doing that.
MR. ORR: Okay.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: The grassing issue, less emotion, it sounds like less people disagreeing with where you were, how you got there, and where the plant was going, the plants were going at that point, this is both units.
Right, yes. It seemed - yes, that's my memory of it, right.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
After the fact, did your group get any feedback from the NLOs, who were maybe out there cleaning the trawling screens, or cleaning the water buckets.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes, you call them boxes.
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Did you become aware ofany feedback from the non-licensed 2
operators that they felt differently on that?
3
- 1. non-4 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I know you told me what 5
your opinion was if you were an NLO, but did you get any feedback?
6
- the non-licensed operators, I'm going to 7
talk through this and maybe you can follow this with Dan, but the non-licensed 8
operators, I don't know as many of them as well, but we have been doing a 9
modification, my group and the maintenance organization, have been scheduling 10 these modifications to make it easier for them to combat the grassing at the 11 screens. Just to put it in simplistic terms, it's a big plate that goes over it with 12 a flip arm. They had been doing it with rakes, Which they considered to be an 13 industrial safety issue, and I could understand that.
14 And, I believe that we had completed a third to a half of them, 15 probably more like four of the 12, would be my memory, and so my memory is, 16 I remember talking to a couple of them at that time, and not only with those two 3.7 individuals I confirmed there, you know, wants to have more of those, all 12 of 18 them done.
19 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: They weren't done at that 20 point, though, mechanically.
21 There's four of them, done, not the other 22 eight.
23 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
24 can't say, I can't say what the overall 25 opinion was of all the non-licensed operators or any selective ones.
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9 10 ii 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
don't know if they all felt that way.
ampy SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: With regards to whether, you know, did the NLOs think, hey, you know, this is too dangerous for us to be out there, only four of the 12 water boxes have this mechanical clean-out system going, we should shut the plant down because of that?
9 I never got that feedback.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
KI never heard any feedback like that.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
Why don't we take a very short break. It's like quarter of 6:00.
Okay.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: We probably. have about another 15, 20 minutes.
- *]
Okay, fine.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Good. Let me turn this off.
(Whereupon, at 5:45 p.m., a recess until 5:47 p.m.)
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: We're back on the record after a short break. I guess it's about 13 before 6:00.
Okay, we've talked about four issuei, and there's - I wanted to go talk general for a minute and then come back and talk about something.
There's a group called - I know about INPO, but there's a group called WANO, do you know what they are?
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SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Did they come here, I 2
guess it was.last year at some point, and give their rating of the plant?
3 Yes.
4 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay, and from what I 5
understand you guys were rated a 3?
6 7Yes.
7 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And, that's not good. It's 8
a I to 4 system, 4 being-9 iActually, I don't know what the bottom one 10 is, but 3 is not the score we are looking for.
11 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right, right, I understand.
12 ight.
13 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Talking about that time, if 14 we could, because it sounds like you have a - at least on the Hope Creek side, 15 you have relationships with the non-licensed operators, you know most of them.
16 17 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Coming up, leading up to 18 the when WANO comes in and does their review, and gives you guys your 19 grade, your score, was the work environment here improving up to that point?
20 How would you characterize the work environment from the fact, you know, 21 people are happy at work, generally happy, they feel that management is 22 listening to at least some of what they have to say, of course, there's a 23 management/worker conflict because that's the way it is.
24 ght.
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SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: But, you know, the union 2
people have a feeling that things are generally okay, maybe not great, but 3
generally okay, maybe even improving, getting better, up until this WANO visit, 4
did that visit change? Did you see any change in the work environment here at 5
the plant after they came and gave their grade here at Hope Creek, did you notice 6
any major shift after that where it went south, south meaning it started to 7
deteriorate, the work environment here?
8 0No.
I'm trying to think back, WANO was 9
just a - that was just - WANO is INPO.
10 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: It sounded like it's INPO, 11 but it's the World -
12 World Association of Nuclear Operators, 13 Institute of Nuclear Power Operations.
14 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: It's part of INPO.
15 Yes, just through a matter of semantics, just 16 for the record, the INPO visit happens every two years, We have a joint 17 evaluation, or we have had, for the two stations together.
18 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
19 iWen you have a WANO visit, it just means 20 that there are some people from the worldwide nuclear industry come in and 21 participate in the plant evaluation, which is really conducted by the folks in 22 Atlanta with INPO.
23 That evaluation occurred in July of 2002, and this is for my 24 benefit, Jeff, I'm recalling things, July of 2002, there was a lot of work done with 25 that. And then, you are asking, I'm trying to understand question -
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1 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes, it was pretty wordy.
2
- and then you are asking the question, did 3
- how did you word it?
4 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Did -
M jThe morale go down after that?
6 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: - go down after that, after 7
the site received their grade from WANO/INPO, did you see a drop off?
8 think we in management were disappointed.
9 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
10 I think that, you know, a lot of the work you 11 put in and you are not recognized for it from an industry perspective, and it's 12 truly a measurement of your effectiveness as a management team, is really what 13 the evaluation is all about.
14 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
15 That can be rather humbling, and you asked
- 16.
earlier, a 3 is not a good score, it's not what you aspire to.
17 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
18 So, it doesn't necessarily mean you are 19 unsafe, which is the subject of what some of this interview is about.
20 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
21 t's a measure of you against your peers.
22 And so, yes, I think that hurt management a little bit, from the 23 perspective of, you know, what the team is trying td do and what your peers see 24 you as relative to the rest of the industry.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 As far as the workers go, I thought, and we talked a little bit about arlier on, I thought that ad laid in some priorities with getting along with and listening to the union and working with them, that were very positive. I think if you talk to union leadership on a level of, say, industrial safety, and some of the maintenance arena, and some of what they do in outages, from that perspective I'd say they would be pretty positive about what was going on, in that time frame.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Even after?
~Yes.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Even after the INPO score is given to the site and management is disappointed?
2Yes, I think if you talk to union leadership I would say that that's true.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That they thought it was good.
It in't substantially change afterwards, that's my. perception.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
Because I soit oflieard that in your question.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Well, you did hear it.
You know, there's not a lot of.3s, there's a couple 4s out there, there's one or two of them, there's about nine 3s and therest are Is or 2s, if you know your INPO scores at all.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.
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1 5o, that's a tough thing to swallow.
2 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: They're going to be coming 3
back again this -
4 End of-5 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: - in '04, right?
6 E
- end of next year, yes.
7 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
8 let's talk about him for just a minute.
9 Okay.
10 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Did you hear him, any 11 reaction from him about the INPO score, at a senior management meeting?
12 Well, I was there only when we had our 13 debrief. The way the process works is, being a member of senior management 14 on the island -
15 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.
16
.,s
- you walk in, you walk in with their 17 management team.
18 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Here?
19
-yes, it was in Aitgust of 2003, INPO has 20 sort of a funny way that they conduct business, but they - you go in there and 21 you meet and they go over some of the key items, and then the actual score is 22 not discussed. So, the fact that we are talking about this, you know, I've never 23 been shown a number that site is. I know we are a focus area, I feel the need to 24 qualify that, but in the exit meeting they talk about some of the major points in 25 the meeting and theF,
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1 office there, with the INPO management, and the actual score is given, and then 2
that's that. So, I've never seen a number.
3 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
4
.ýAnd, that's common with all different plants.
5 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Di d
6 come out and brief senior management here at the site after they went in with 7
INPO management and got the score? Did they come out and say -
8 Yes, we had a subsequent meeting with*
9 about a month later.
10 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: How did that go?
11
.Well, he wanted to see what the - how 12 should I say it, I'm struggling for my words - you know, where's the 13 accountability with the people towards fixing the problems, was the words I 14 remember and the tone that I remember.
15 So, who is in charge, you know, of fixing these issues, and you 16 are the team, and you guys have got to get the right people in place. And, you 17 know, it's not a fun meeting.
18 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
19 Was there discussion during that meeting, and I'm just going 20 to say in black and white, where we are going to change our focus more from 21 maybe - more to a production focus?
22
'No.
23 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: At all?
24
-1 Absolutely not. All in the contrary.
25 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay, meaning what?
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I've knofor quite a few years, 2
and I think he's frustrated. He's never said this directly, but I know the man fairly 3
well, I think he's frustrated that we have not been able to improve our position 4
in the industry with INPO, and he clearly understands that it's about safety and 5
improving safety, and then whatever follows with production is going to occur.
6 And, there's no question in my mind that he feels that way.
7 And, I think he, over time, is frustrated that he hasn't gotten, 8
you know, that -
9 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Recognition?
10
-that chemistry and, therefore, recognition 11 with INPO.
12 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
13
.S0,
'that was some ofmy, I'll say, non-verbal 14 reaction from his Words in that meeting.
15 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
16 Can we go back and talk about the Hope Creek turbine bypass 17 valve issue?
18 19 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And, just a couple things 20 I wanted to go over there, a couple pretty specific questions I have, and I want 21 to get your feedback, get your impressions on them.
22 From what I understand about this valve issue, there was a 23 discussion which you were part of, probably with some of these other guys who 24 we talked about before were at these meetings, but there was a discussion where 25 you were part of, regarding this bypass valve issue, where you got upset with the NEAL R. GROSS' COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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course of the discussion and you got up and left the room, do you recall that 2
occurring?
3 This is what we've been told happened, and I'm trying to 4
corroborate that.
5
,jOkay.
6 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And, ifit did happen I want 7
to explore why. Again, it's going back towards -
8 I think it was on the recirc thing.
9
-SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
10 1 think it was on the recire thing.
11 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Can you tell me what 12 happened? I know where you came out on that, I mean, your position was you 13 thought that the recire system was going to work, let's move the'plant further 14 into power.
.5 Yes.
16 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And, you guys think it's 17 going to be fine.
18
,.2First of all, I know it was on the recirc thing.
319 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay; 20 Because I'll tell you one thing, I'm not trying 21 to - I'm not trying to play a high horse or anything, but the bypass valve issue 22 was a safety issue and we needed to shut the plant down.
23 SRl SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
24 wouldn't get frustrated and upset and leave 25 the room and leave that risk of something else happening.
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SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
2 wouldn't do it. I just would not do that.
3 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Good.
4 I'm sure it was on the recirc issue.
5 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: How sure are you?
6
- Positive.
7 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay, that's pretty good.
8
.1 don't get that too much.
9 I'm positive, because I can tell you what the 10 circumstances were.
11 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Go ahead.
12 4
1I was angry, because - although I can't
. 13 remember what the specific subject was, it's like, fine, you want to wait and fix 14 this problem, that's fine, I remember it was getting late, and by late I mean it was 15 10:00 or 11:00 br so, or 9:00 or 10:00 anyway, and we had been sitting in there 16 for a couple hours, and it was like the second or third of these management by 17 committee deals.
18 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
19 And, I went to look. at something in a 20 procedure to'see if, you know, I forget what I was doing, but it was something 21 in the recire system and convincing myself that it didn't really matter, and then 22 I went home.
23 And, I remember, either I calle or!
called me and he 24 said, he said, well, where are you going, and I said, look, you know, if you want 25 to go work on this thing and continue on with a shut down that's fine, I'm not -
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9 1L.0 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 D.4 you know, I'm not holding anything aboul that, but I don't think we should do it. And, that's what I told him. I said, I thinkf we should start up, and I kno 4
felt the same way because I talked to him about it.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOC-.......-..
Yes, and I remember talking to him about that, I'm positive about that, too, and I sai&, you know, if we want to do it we'll go and do it, we'll be good soldiers, but I to Id him I didn't think it was necessary.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT'TEATOR: Who was pushing from the other side then on that issue?
To fix it, my recollection isF*
and my recollection hone tic).
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That's a new name here now.
JThat's my recollection.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
'And that I'm not sure of.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Would he be the site VP?
e would be the INA-VAN SR. SPECIAL AGENIT TEATOR: And, they felt that it needed to be fixed before you can come back up to power?
Yes, tlere was some design issue, or they were tying it obliquely to a design basis thing, and I didn't get the connection.
But, I mean, I was tired, and I was frustral ed at that point.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
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- 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 133 I'm looking at it, though, I mean, I'm not an engineer, but I'm looking at this as, all right, those - the sienior p~ople being involved in this discussion are being, in the eyes of some, too conservative in that call.
twasn't-it wasn't, in my opinion, and once again I'll come back to the subject, it wasn't in my opinion a safety issue.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR:. Right.
M*'t was something that we ended up wanting to do, and it was clear that after all the di.-cussion we weren't going anywhere, we weren't advancing the ball, and like I said, this was the second or third of these conversations during the course of three or four days on these different issues. I didn't have anything else constructive to add.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You already had it all out, huh?
Yes, I'm being honest with you, you know.
So, that was that.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
wI do want to make one thing perfectly clear, again I understand what I'm doing in her., I would not get up and walk away from that bypass valve issue.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
We are going to go right back to that, Dan. Was there anything you wanted to ask about -
MR. ORR: No, not this particular issue.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
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- 1.
Right.
2
-SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: This seems to be the one 3
that, my words, if I'm wrong correct me -
4 ay.
5 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: - you had - of these four 6
issues you talked about, you had the most problem with that one, from it being 7
an actual safety issue?
8 No, I'd say I had the most problem with the 9
recirc issue, because, you know, but from a safety issue, that's what your 10 question was?
11 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
12
. Yes, that had the most significance to it.
13 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right..
14 think you can be fair in saying that.
15 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Did you have any talks 16 with employees about whether, you know, discussions regarding what we should 17 do with that work, that some of the discussions, some of the input, was 18 "dangerous," if we went this way it would have been a dangerous thing to do?
19 That's the quote, "dangerous."
20 I may have said that out of frustration, yes.
2i SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
22 ile we were in the three hour thing. My 3
memory i would we do this, this doesn't seem right, you 24 know. Sohewasthk A
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 55 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Why, from which perspective?
.*,Well, it was out of compliance with tech specs, the valve stuck open, or, I can't remember if it actually closed or not.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Dan, do you remember?
MR. ORR: I think the issue was -
Or it wouldn't go full open.
MR. ORR: - were you putting the turbine on and expecting in response of the turbine bypass valves to close, and then you had this one not fully close?
21 can't remember exactly. I can't remember.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I'll come back to the question.
MI remember being concerned that how far as we taking this thing, over the course of three hours. Okay?
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
Il_-......
Ofcone*rsation, and, you know, people are walking in and out of the room and doing this or that, and we're trying to make this decision, and likel said earlier, it seemed fairly clear cut, and, you know, I forget what your quote was, but -
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That you called that process or some discussion "dangerous."
et is.dangerous when you go too far down that road and you actually consider it too much, because that can then cloud your judgment.
All I
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.14 15
- 16 17 1.8 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 decision.
At And, that can lead to getting to the wrong - making the wrong SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes, I agree.
And,I would maintain that, you know, if you are - maybe I make my mind up, but if your mind is made up, and there's no clear decision maker, and the conversation continues, frustration builds, and you say, you know, something on the side, I remember my memory is, saying to the Director of OPs, what are we doing here, this seems like we are going - you know, and maybe I used the word "dangerous," I don't know.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
But, I can recall having that emotion.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You talked about
- *Yes.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You had the conversation SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Who was the decision maker then? Someone had to be the decision maker. Was itWas it Was it someone above them? I'm trying to understand that, because this - I mean, you are talking about a compliance issue here, it's not just an industrial safety type concern.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: This is a regulatory -this is a regulatory issue?
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9 10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 By our -by our procedure
-1...
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Do you recall how elt? Did he feel like you?
e felt the same way.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
- To my memory.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
He felt like, you know, we just shut down and fix it.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Did he not haye the power to do that? I mean, the real power to say, hey, we are shutting this down now, we are not going to debate this for two hours, three hours.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Did he have the power to do that? This is an opinion.question, but did it appear to you that he had the authority, the actual true authority to do that, during those meetings, or during that three hour meeting?
exercised it.
he didn't exe (202) 234-4433 le probably did, I don't know if he ever SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. Well, that's fair, if
,reise it.
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,jhen you wouldn't know.
2 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
3 Did you get the impression that he was getting overruled by 4
anyonei 5
I don't thinko was overruling him. I 6
kno v
ery well, I worked for him for two or three years, three years I guess, 7
he was - he was challenging everyone.
8 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
9 And, their convictions.
10 Andf s - I don't know if you are going to talk to him or.
11 not, bu
- s not one - he's not shy, and he's not timid in those things. And, 12 he'll push you to the edge to see how strong your convictions are.
13 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
14 And, that can be taken the wrong way also.
15 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I think it can.
I6 id, but that's what he was doing. If you, 17 know what he's doing, then it's not - it's not some scary thing, he wants you to 18 come with all the facts, you know, but in this case it was a series of long 19 meetings.
20 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Was he, you knowhim, so 21 you knew where he was coming from, but did other people confide in your, 22 did he say he felt intimidated by things that were - by the 23 challenging nature "ng those meetings?
24 o, no, he didn't say that.
25 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
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Did any -
2
.,-He didn't insinuate it either.
3 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
4 Others at the meeting, did any of them voice that to you, that 5
I'm having a big problem wit his challenging behavior on this, this 6
is clear, we should be doing, we should go into shutdown now to fix the valve?
7 My impression of this thing was-8 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
9 that it seemed like the people in the room, 10 myself included and the frustrating part on the other one was, I'm going to use 11 my words, or the words I'm going to choose are, it seemed like a meaningless 12 exercise.
13 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
.14 4
fBecause the decision, we know where we 15 have to go, let's just get through the committee decision and let's go get on and 16 do it, you know. And, I mean, that's what I recall of my thoughts at that time.
17 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
318 It took a long time, though.
19 Did you have a feeling that the discussion got to a point where 20 a decision - it was going to get close to the decision being made that we've 21 talked ourselves back into going back up without fixing the valve, was it headed 22 that way, was it heading that way? Did it get close to that decision being made?
23 I-don't really ever remember being concerned 24 that it was going to go there.
25 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
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CI can't remember everyone that was in the 2
room, but I don't remember having that emotion.
3 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
4 Was in that meeting?
5 1 think so.
6 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I think that's one of the 7
names you mentioned.
8 09.~1 think so, yes.
9 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Who wa 10 (Whereupon, tape 1, side B ends; tape 2, side A begins.)
11 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: It's now 6:34, we're on the 12 second tape, and I was asking a question about the mixed message that - you 13 had a discussion with fier this bypass valve issue was resolved, 14 about mixed messages. Can you go ahead and share with me What you meant 15 by that?
16..
es. So, in chronological order there's the 17 bypass valve discussion, and then there's the recire pump discussion. Okay,*and 18 they were separated by a couple days.
19 The context of the meetings were relatively the same. One 20 was the bypass valve discussion, it was a safety decision on shutting down. The 21 recire discussion was the discussion on should we start up or not, for what my 22 memory is is a non-safety issue.
23 My memory is the frustrations in the recire discussion, or at 24 least that's where my frustration surfaced, and having a conversation wit 25 after the recire discussion about, you know, what are you so frustrated about, NEAL R. GROSS14 lo COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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ý23 24 25 Here's what I'm frustrated about, the bypass valve appears to me to be a straightforward, shut the reactor down and find out what's wrong with the valve issue.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
- AAnd, the recirc issue receives some debate, but we hold the line for something that's non-safety, but yet we debate the bypass valve issue for a long amount of time. People can take that the wrong way.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
And, I remember having that discussion with SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Did you tell him that you took. it the wrong way?
SNo.
SRK SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Or, did you take it the wrong way?
o, I told him that it can be taken the wrong way.
-SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR" Right.
After - well, let me - I think tgo-get the complete - to get a complete picture here from you on some things -
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: --I'm going to haveto play a tape of something that I want you to listen to, and I want to get your perspective on it, okay?
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b6.
2 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
3 It's 25 of 7:00.
4 (Whereupon, at 6:35 p.m., offthe record to play tape until 6:50 5
p.m.)
6 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay. It's about ten of 7
7:00, I just played a copy of a conversation that was taped by an individual 8
named Kim Harvin (phonetic), of a conversation she had withy
§1 9
Ijustplayed that for you. A lot of it is inaudible.
10 You wrote some notes down. I have some typed up notes here of what is said.
11 But, before we go into that, I just want to stop for just a 12 second, okay?
13 (Whereupon, a brief recess.)
14 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay, we're back on again.
1_5 I wanted to check my battery. My battery appears to beworking well.
16 Ijust played that tape for you. Do you recall the conversation, 17 And, if so, do you want to talk about it right now?
18 s, I'd like to talk about it. I don't remember 19 specifically the conversation. If you were asking me about it without having 20 listened to the tape, I probably wouldn't have recalled anywhere near those 21 details:
22 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
23 Well, after listening to it, there's some details we'd like to talk 24 about, but first, you wanted to say something?
25
-Y es. It may take a while, is that all right?
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3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21.
22 23 b4 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes, that's fine. I have plenty of tapes and I've got power right here in the wall. Let's go.
Kim Harvin is, or was, the Cultural Transformation Manager.
She was a direct report t_
From listening to the tape. that was me on the tape, and it sounds like the tape was done at some point during, near or after, some of the bypass valve and recirc pump discussions that we've been talking about earlier on in this interview.
I was not aware that that conversation was being taped. I'd like to put that on the record.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Was it a one-on-one discussion?
f1:I don't remember whether it was or not, because I don't remember talking with her specifically. It certainly sounds like it was.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
MINW*er office -
(Whereupon, bad section of tape.)
.Aj*\\Ms** s. Harvin's role in the organization, as well as others -
(Whereupon, bad section of tape.)
tried to encourage that, encourage that.
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And so, I was a little bit surprised and shocked on how this 2
thing would play out here in this meeting, but that's something else to be 3
covered.
4 It was - I wrote down several of the quotes, and I guess you 5
can ask me questions about it. It was -
6 (Whereupon, bad section of tape.)
7 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: - managers after meetings 8
like that occurred?
9
. m not sure what her-what her charter was, 10 she worked directly fo I'm not sure what her charter was.
11 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
12 So, I'm not sure i Qjirected her to 13 do that or whether she did it on her own initiative.
14 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: She did it, though.
15es.
16 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
I have some 17 questions.
1,8 Go ahead.
19, SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And, you know, you fill in 20 where you need if you wantto add something.
21 ure, go ahead.
22 MR. ORR: There's a couple of minutes of discussion, then she 23 asks you a question about what did you mean yesterday when you said this place 24 is "dangerous?" Is the decision making like muddled, is it kind of-and you 25 respond again, the tape isn't perfect, but the response is pretty much, "Yes, I NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 00 meant it from a nuclear safety standpoint," then there's an inaudible part. "We came this close, when I say 'dangerous,' we almost talked ourselves on Monday ofjust starting right back up and not going into the bypass valve." We talked about that a little bit.
- Right.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: But, the point I'm interested in is, you used the word "dangerous," and what you said to her is you meant it from a nuclear safety standpoint. Can you go ahead and share a little more on that?
It's really nothing that I don't think we already talked about. It seemed like - I also wrote down that the conversation lasted four to six hours, and ha
, 'over a barrel. I think that was a reference ARM.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Correct, ver a barrel talking about this thing."
lght.
And, it just seemed like, I was probably - I was probably, in several of these quotes, letting out the. emotion from what I referenced earlier on before the tape, on being frustrated with, once again, what I considered a fairly straightforward decision, and laying it all out over time.
And, surprised, I guess, would be the word that we'd debate over it for that long.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
There's a following comment after talking abou that, "There was pressure, that senior leadership was considering from up north NEAL R. GROSSA COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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...," I took that to mean Newark, "... to go back up without the valve repair," and 2
then it went inaudible.
3 I don't remember that, really. I got the tape, 4
I'm not saying that I'm not saying what's on the tape.
5 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
6 7But, I don't remember any conversation on 7
that in the meeting.
8 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: After the meeting was 9
there an impression that there was pressure being provided by corporate?
10 Yes, I don't remember anything like that, 11 Jeff. Obviously, I said that, I don't know where the reference is coming from.
12 I really don't.
13 SRt SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: - grounds for taking the 14 keys away, we talked about that a little bit.
15 0ght.
16 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: If you did do that.
17 at's from the reference that we talked 18 about earlier from starting up the reactor and whether the refuel outage was in 19 a month or a year, and finding out that we started up with a valve being 20 inoperable, that would just be - that would just be very bad.
21 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
22 Let's talk about this first part of this tape.
23 9U6 -.
24 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Which we just talked 25 about.A NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
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1 Was it your impression then that generally there was pressure 2
from senior site management to maybe debate, challenge, beyond what was 3
acceptable before - at the plant that might cause the plant to cut down or to stay 4
down longer than required?
5
. One more time with the question.
6 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes.
7
.:I kind of lost my focus.
8 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Was it your impression 9
back then, I mean we are talking about, this is all in March, and most of the 10 issues that you brought up occurred in this frame, 2003 time frame, was it your 11 impression during that time period that there was pressure from senior site 12 management to challenge issues Which might cause - maybe inappropriately 13 challenge issues Which might cause the plant to have to come down, stop 14 operating, make outages longer than people thought needed? Was that your 15 impression, that there was that kind of pressure from senior-I mean, you are 16 pretty senior here, but from way above even you, was there that kind ofpressure, 17 was it your perception?
18 0J.o.
Obviously, I'm a day away from some, 19 you know, emotional frustration here on this tape, and I'm talking to this person 20 who is supposed to be, you know, some type of guru type thing.
21 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
22
.But, no, no, I honestly don't see the pressure 23 angle from senior leadership in these issues.
24 Now, at this point, this was in March, I'm seven months away 25 from this, but -
Allt IC/
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SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Our understanding is the 2
conversation took place March 2 0th, which is -
3 And, this is October.
4 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: - I guess, three days after 5
the valve event, wasn't it March 17h?
6 MR. ORR: That sounds right.
7 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
8
-a timing makes sense with what I heard 9
on the tape -
10 (Whereupon, bad section of tape.)
11 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: -the conversation talking 1.2 about the length of the meeting, "... after four to six hours, but this is my 13 perspective I'm not going to share with anybody."
14 I didn't write that one down.
-'.5 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I can go back and play it.
16 No, I don't-I'm not challenging you.
17 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
18 I mean, from the Agency's perspective, if they think someone 19 at your level can't share your perspective on your view on a safety issue, like the 20 valve issue, with anybody, then the Commission might think that would be a 21 problem down here at the site.
22 see.
23 1 think that the reference on saying that is that it wasn't much 24 of-as much of a-how should I say it - ask me the question again, I'm a little 25 flustered.
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SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes, that's all right. I 2
mean, I understand.
3 I'm a little flustered. This has never happened 4
to me before, so -
5 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: This is something new.
6 I'm a little off base here.
7 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: There's a comment that you 8
make on the tape, talking about the valve issue again. "After four to six hours, 9
but this is my perspective I'm not going to share with anybody." And, my 10 follow-up to you was, if the Commission feels that or sees that a manager at 11 your level can't share his or her perspective on a safety issue like the valve issue, 12 that we might view that as a Safety Conscious Work Environment issue.
13 MOkay.
14 So, the way you asked the question, I think I understand it.
15 We get to the right decision, it takes that long, and the 16 management decision is belabored and, ultimately,. I guess - I don't know if I do 17 have an answer for this now that I -
18 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I guess the part of it, "...
19 I'm not going to share with anybody," is the thing I'm asking about, why did you 20 feel that way at that time? Or, is it even in context, number one, it seems like 21
- it is.
22thnso 23 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Why did you feel that way 24 at that time?
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1 think if we talk about, there was another-2 let me try this, because maybe I'm able to answer the question with the next 3
quote. I thought I heard myself saying on the tape at one point immediately after 4
the thing, "... can't talk to him," and I think that was a reference tolk
.6 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
7 j
don't know if that's in the written copy or 8
not.
9 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That's in there, a little bit 10 earlier, but it's in there.
11 1 wrote it down under "Makes me wonder,"
12 so I don't know, I was just writing the ones down I heard.
I 13 But, it seemed to me like from the meeting that there really
.4.
wasn't a lot of-I guess those above rm j in particular that I recall from the 15 meeting, wasn't really listening to other points of view at that time. I don't know 16 what the individual's motivations were.
17 SR. SPECIAL AGENT.TEATORI 18 ght; 19 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
20 I don't kno.ihýat hkmotivations were at the 21 time. I'm sure you'll talk to him.
22 The "can't talk to him" piece was, he just didn't seem like he 23 was listening. He was more probing and asking questions, challenging, and just 24 had to wait.
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1 So, I'm not going to talk to anybody about it could be a 2
reference to - was that what the quote was?
3 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
4 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: "After four to six hours, 5
but this is my perspective I'm not going to share it with anybody," you were 6
talking about the issue, the meetings, the discussions.
7 Right, now I don't know what the topic was.
8 I think I got this in context, and maybe - I don't know what the timing of this 9
was relative to this recirc incident I'm talking about, I don't know whether it was 10 between the two, after the second one, I don't know. It was probably between 11 the two, with the length of time we needed to go into the thing.
12 But-I lost my train of thought-the situation with the recirc 13 system, and I did end up talking to him -
14 (Whereupon, bad section of tape.)
15 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You said you did.
16 jThe whole scene was playing out again.
17 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right. And, you did say 18 earlier that you.were talking about both.
19
- ght. The whole scene was playing out 20' again all over again.
21 So, I don't know if that answers the question or not, but -
22 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Do you think that 23 conversation with ceurred after this conversation with Kim Harvin?
24 The way to determine that, there would be 25 an easy way to determine that.
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SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
2 I think you said you had the date on this 3
conversation.
4 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: It looks like March 20",
5 from what we understand.
6 WIdon't Q
know what the exact dates were of 7
anything.
8 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: It would be a Thursday.
9
,You could easily draw a time line that said 10 the bypass valves, this conversation you have the date on, we shut down, where 11 this conversation fell, and where this recire issue, actually when the unit went 12 to operational condition too, after the bypass valves. If you built that time line 13 with those three issues, that would answer the question.
14 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
is The next audible statement is, "I'm not going to share it with 17 Yes, I heard that. I don't-1.8 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Then it went inaudible.
19
-I don't know who s.
20 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEA.TOris the ne, 21
- i.
that's who we think it is. This would have 22 been back in March, would you have known then?
23 don't think so, I don't know. Maybe.
24 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Was he coming in then?
25 MR. ORR: He showed up April I".
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1 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Oh.
2 Oh, okay.
3 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Again, but the question 4
goes to, it sounds like you-at least when you are talking to her, you are telling 5
her you are not going to share your perspective on that issue with anyone.
6
- Right.
7 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Do you still feel that way 8
about -
9 0.
10 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: - safety issues here at the 11 plant?
12 13 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Did something change 14 between now and then, where now you would, back then in that time period 315 maybe you wouldn't?
-16 V0 17 Can we go off the record for a second?
18 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: It's 7:14.
319 (Whereupon, at 7:14 p.m., a recess was taken.)
20 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Back on the record.
21 (Whereupon, bad section of tape.)
22 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: - context.
23 jWell, my response is as follows, I think that 24 25 (Whereupon, bad section of tape.)
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1 M!.
we talked about it earlier on in the 2
interview, and -
3 (Whereupon, bad section of tape.)
4
_.1-1 couldn't talk to-when I said I can't talk 5
to him, it was about this issue, and the reality was, subsequent 6
to this, several days later, or a few days later, I did, and I recall, as I had said 7
earlier, about the mixed message that it sends, and that people talk about these 8
types of decisions, and we need to - we need to be more decisive in our - in 9
what our decision is and how we communicate it out, because these types of 10 conversations do occur amongst managers, whether that's appropriate or not.
11 So, I wanted to get that point across.
3.2 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You made a comment off 13 the record that you went in and talked to about this after the recirc 14 valve issue. You brought up both issues to him.
1-5 That's correct.
16 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: And, you said you came 17 out of that meeting where you made the statement, "That's exactly what Iwas 1.8 talking about," can you tell me what you meant by that?
19 es. When I said "that's exactly what I was 20 talking about," what I'm trying to say is that, what I'm trying to say is that, that
- 21.
when we debated over this issue on the bypass valve, and it sent a message to 22 the people in the room and others that, you know, we had to debate four to six 23 hours2.662037e-4 days <br />0.00639 hours <br />3.80291e-5 weeks <br />8.7515e-6 months <br /> over something that was ultimately a bolt in the valve, and then we 24 debated an equivalent amount of time on the recire issue, and there was other NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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options there, it became - it became clear that other - that we could be perceived 2
as not being firm in our position relative to how we are operating the plant.
3 And, I pointed those issues out to I'm thinking from my 4
memory if we actually built the time line about two days later, two or three days 5
later from when this taped conversation occurred.
6 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: The next statement on the 7
tape that you made was to the effect of, "The fact that we were even there means 8
we don't come from safety," again talking about this valve issue. What did you 9
mean by that, "... we don't come from safety."
10
. Well, it's the same theme, I think that in the 11 frustration of this moment it was - it was, we were looking at this from an issue 12 of-of-13 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Production over safety?
14
-I can't go there, I can't say that, I can't say 15 it's production over safety, over what all the items it could be, but you have to 16 keep in mind that I believe if you built this time line it's probably best to take a 17 step back here, and that's probably the way I can answer the questions better.
18 I Was frustrated, I sat there for - for - in this meeting, and I 19 had - I struggled with the debate, we shut the plant down, we found the problem 20 with the valve, and I needed somebody to vent those frustrations towards to clear 21 my head to make - to do the right thing, which was ultimately to talk t 22 about it.
23 So, I think that's what this occurred, I ink that this is like a 24 venting process for me.
25 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: With, m Harvin?,
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3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 during this ti statement.
77 jWWith Kim Harvin.
(Whereupon, bad section of tape.)
4Just around this issue, and what wvent on iat he was part of.
(Whereupon, bad section of tape.)
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: That's a pretty strong Yes, it is. Yes, it is.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: In fact, I've been doing investigations for 14 years, it's darned rare to see a manager at your level that even will admit to saying that - or we have another means of showing that's what the person said.
(Whereupon, bad section of tape.)'
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Again, if you can share something on that, I mean, that's what this is really about, if there's a problem down here, the Commission wants to identify it and help the licensee get back to where they've got to be, if there's a problem.
MR. ORR: Absolutely, we need to know, from a public health and safety perspective.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Where did that statement come from?
t came from the context of the meeting, from the frustration over the context of the meeting. I really have nothing more to add on it.
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3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Do you still feel that way today, that we -
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR:
meaning senior management, plant management, site management, doesn't come from safety?
~No.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Have you felt that, have you emotionally felt that way over other issues down here at the site, like you did with this one? You've been here a long time, you've got a lot of experience down here.
Right. No, I can't recall feeling that way about any other issues.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: This was, in my words, an event for you, hearing this conversation -
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: -reacting to it, and getting emotional about it.
ut, I have been emotional before.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
I've been upset before.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Yes, we all have.
I have strong feelings about doing the right thing, and I can't say that there's not some other issue somewhere where I could have said something like that.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
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79 2
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
3 2But, after the fact, and I review it, and you 4
ask me about it, I probably wouldn't have characterized this in my memory, six 5
or seven months later, whatever it is, seven months later, I probably wouldn't 6
have added this into that question either as being, did you come from safety, 7
because, ultimately, we did the right thing. There was frustration -
8 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
9 at the time over having to debate it for so 10 long.
11 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
12
__at was a very emotional meeting and 13 emotional decision, because, you know, first of all you don't know what's inside 14 the valve.
15 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right.
16 Wow, how hot did it get in that meeting? I mean, it just 17 sounds like it's even more than we initially talked about.
.8 el1, I don't -
19 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Was it everybody had a 20 position and the had his position?
21'.
- remember primarily it being. that*
22 challenging everybody.
23 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
24 qI don't seven months later, I don't 25 remember the context of it.
-[ u.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. ORR: Any idea whym was so persistent? I mean, I've knowgp robably longer than you have, why was he so persistent on something that seemed so fundamentally high for safety?
don't think - I don't think tha, at the time felt that OPs was asking all the questions, and had really, not just on this issue, but in general, had really asked all the questions and had fully thought things through.
MR. ORR: Yes.
jAnd, I think he really wanted to test that.
And, that wasn't - that wasn't unusual.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: But, at a certain point, I guess it became unusual,:when it continued.
ýýjMy memory is it got a little ridiculous.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I'm going to turn the tape off for a minute, I'm going to review my notes. If you think about something, because I think I'm almost done here.
Dan, you think if you want to ask anything, too, and then we'll finish up.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATQz
.ut, ifyou have something you want to add, by all means do so.
It's 7:30, I'm going to turn the tape off.
(Whereupon, at 7:30 p.m., a recess was taken.)
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I just have one other question then I think I'm done, unless there's something you wanted to add.
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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 81 Later on in this taped conversation there's a comment you make that, something to the effect of you don't understand the economics. It's a little inaudible around there, but -
didn't hear it.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: - if I remember correctly, it's you relating this to Kim Harvin, and she's asking you questions about, you know, maybe why this took so long, why - you know, why the challenging questions from and you make this statement that, you are being told, or when you are raising the concern you are being told, "You don't understand the economics of it." Do you remember that?
didn't hear that one on the tape, that's not one I wrote down. I was trying to listen to all the significant quotes.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Well, that's a significant thing, too.
es, I know, but I didn't hear it.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I can replay it if you want, to get the context if you want, it's in there.
I don't think you have to.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Did that come up in the conversation wi ingforth, "You don't understand the economics of the decision to turn the plant off and fix the valve," did that come up?
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j-o, I don't think so. I think the context of 2
that comment is probably, I found this often with Kim Harvin, was - you know, 3
she was a person that a lot of people had these types of conversations with, and 4
this is a little bit emotional, but taking it out of context, or saying in context, you 5
need to understand what the gravity of the decision is and everything that's in 6
play there and explain that to her, that was not unusual to make that type of 7
comment to her on, hey, we need to make this decision on, you know, we'll be 8
down for another five or six days. There's ramifications for fuel impact and 9
outage impact and all that, and to understand the gravity of the situation and all 10 the different variables, to make the management decision. That wasn't unusual.
11 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: For you to make that kind 12 of comment to her about an issue?
13 Correct.
14 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR:.Not necessarily meaning 15 any economic pressure to keep the plant up?
16 RightV right, correct.
17 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Could it have meant that?
18Um-19 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: I mean, I couldn't hear 20 what was all around that part of the tape, but could it have been?
21
- j/*
ght, I didn'tpick up the word "economics" 22 in it, but I've never been in a meeting here -
23 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right, this is good.
24 iLj I've never been in a meeting here where, 25 you know, that was verbalized, not in this issue or others. You know, we have NEAL R.'GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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to keep the plant running, or, you know, we are not going to be able to meet 2
some target or do this or that. Okay? I've never heard that, I never heard 3
reference of it, and I've never been in a meeting with it. Okay?
4 So, like I said, this would be a context type thing for her to 5
explain, you know, everything that goes into a management decision. That's 6
what I think will come out of that.
7 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
8 Well, I mean, today, yourself, I mean if you had a concern 9
here at the plant, safety concern, industrial safety, nuclear safety, do you feel like 10 you could bring it up to management, your management, to get it resolved? If 11 it's hitting a wall someplace, do you feel that you are able to do that freely 12 without suffering any repercussion?
13 es. Yes, I do.
14 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Have people in your chain 15 of command told you that they felt they couldn't do that, for fear of 16 repercussions, retaliation?
17 0.
18 SiS SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: You said that you know 19 many of the non-licensed operators in the Hope Creek site. Have any of them 20 told you that they feel that they can't push what they think, right or wrong, they 21 might not be right, but if they think they have a true safety concern at the plant, 22 have any of them told you that they feel they can't raise that up, or push that, or 23 pursue that, for fear of retaliation?
24
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for the non-licensed operators, or plant fix problems and they can't get 2
something fixed to their satisfaction in time.
3 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Right, okay.
4 Dan?
5 MR. ORR: For those reasons, do they stop raising issues? Out 6
of frustration, do they stop raising issues out of frustration?
7 1I don't know, I will say that I don't know if 8
that's true or not. I don't have - I don't have direct evidence, although I will say 9
when I go into the plant with what I'll call something of a, you know, critical 10 eye, I see things that - I see some things that probably should be identified that 11 aren't.
12 MR. ORR: Yes.
13
<.nd, I don't know if that is the result oftheir 14 behavior or not, I don't know, of that behavior or not, I don't know.
15 MR. ORR: Okay.
16 A point on clarification and trying to understand, you talked 17 about two meetings in the OSC. Was that two meetings on one issue, the turbine 18 bypass valve issue?
19 No, my memory is one was on the bypass 20 valve and one was on the recirc issue.
- 231 MR. ORR: Okay, all right.
22 at's my memory.
23 MR. ORR: So, they were separ'ate in time.
24 h.
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MR. ORR: So, the meeting on the turbine bypass valve issue 2
pretty much went continuous until you reached some sort of consensus.
3 jFhat's, to my memory, yes, to my memory.
4 MR. ORR: Okay.
5 No further questions.
6 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR I hit you with a lot 7
tonight, but I'm going to tell you, our coming to you, it was the same reason.
8 We had something a little - the tape was something unusual, but there's been a 9
broad - there's been a concern raised with the broad skewy environment down 10 here. This is just part of what I guess the Commission is going to try and do 11 with this, and I'll speak for the Commission, you know.
12 But, it's not like we are just going to talk to you and this is 13 going to end, I wanted to tell you that. But, I wanted to tell you, I appreciate you 14 meeting with us today, coming down here, not knowing what this was about, not 15 knowing me, not knowing - I explained to you the. purpose of what we were 16 going to do, and I thank you for sitting through all of this, including me pulling 17 the tape out and playing it.
18 1 wanted to tell you thank you for that, and thank you for your 19 cooperation, your time, and your patience, with this whole process.
20 With that, I. don't have anything else to add.
Is there 21 something you would like to add?
22
'd like to go off the record for a second and 23 review my notes.
24 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay.
25 d then, I may or may not have something.
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10 11 12 SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: All right, it's 7:40.
(Whereupon, at 7:40 p.m., a recess until 8:45 p.m.)
SR. SPECIAL-AGENT TEATOR: Okay. It's about 8:45.
Vy is there something you want to add?
No, nothing else.
SR. SPECIAL AGENT TEATOR: Okay, then this interview is concluded. Again, thank you very much.
I(Whereupon, at 8:45 p.m., the above-entitled matter was concluded.)
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