ML061790723
| ML061790723 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Salem, Hope Creek  |
| Issue date: | 12/16/2003 |
| From: | NRC/OI |
| To: | |
| References | |
| 1-2003-051F, FOIA/PA-2005-0194 | |
| Download: ML061790723 (74) | |
Text
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UNITED STATED OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 4 OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS 5 INTERVIEW i 6 x 7 IN THE MATTER OF:
8 INTERVIEW OF Docket No.
9 .. : 1-2003-051F
-tCLOSED).
10 1I x 12 Tuesday, December 16, 2003 13 14 Salem, New Jersey 15 16 The above-entitled interview was conducted 17 ýat 5:10 p.m.
18 19 BEFORE:
20 21 Special Agent Eileen Neff, NRC/RI/OI 22 23 Also Present:
24 SCOTT BARBER, NRC/DRP, Senior Project Engineer Ir lation in this re d was deleted ordance with $he "rleedom of Information CemItions '9C "I 'dq NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS r
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1 PROCEEDINGS 2 (5:10 p.m.)
3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Today's date is 4 December 16th, 2003, and the time is approximately 5 5:10 p.m., and speaking is Special Agent Eileen Neff, 6 Office of Investigations with NRC Region I. Also 7 present is Senior Project Engineer Scott Barber, also 8 from Region I, but Division of Reactor Projects.
9 This interview is taking place with 10 Could you spell your last name, 11 please, for me? LI 12 I
13 14 15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Thank you, and the 16 interview is taking place in the PSEG Nuclear Training 17 Center, in Salem, New Jersey. The subject of this 18 interview is information regarding the safety 19 conscious work environment at Salem and Hope Creek, 20 and as it has been explained to you.before going on 21 the record, you are not the subject of this 22 investigation, and there is no specific potential 23 violation associated with it,.and you being approached 24 essentially as a witness regarding this information.
25 Do you understand all of that?
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1 L N understand.
2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF : Are you here 3 voluntarily?
4 'S':m I am.
5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. At this point, 6 what I would like you to do is provide some 7 identifying information; your date of birth and your 8
9 10 and date of birth "and~ social security number 11 is 12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Thank you.
13 And I also would like to place you under oath, too, 14 before we go any further. Would you raise your right 15 hand. --
16 (Whereupon, was sworn.)
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What I would like to 18 do is cover some background information. Let's just 19 start with your education, okay?
20 21 22 115W 23 24 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And what position did NEAL R.GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 you start inAGEN NEF 2
3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:- Okay. And that 4 changed when?
5 Si Iamnot W going to be 6 very good with dates, but I was el 7 roughly 3 years, and then I became an Mo Z )and was an f or roughly 5 9
years, and then I became al -- N MR
.- - -_. 7 10
- ii I was for roughly 12 4 years, and then I became an*
- 13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And what year was 14 that in',* you said?
15 " ~1 'W in time 16 frame, and I may have actually gotten my in 17 and have been an s~nce then, and became a 18 __
lim 0-_-imlitn April of this year, and actually 19 7 inApril of this year.
20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So in your 21 position in April ofk which 1 MO-Mo ,
22 have you been working with?
23
-in 24 systems? an ,have 0.
25 been thIM -'and i "M ;Md havae NEAL R. GRO COURT REPORTERS AND TRIANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 been-*
- andno 2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. So two for 3 each position so far?
4 -Right.
5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
6 7 Correct.
8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And I should 9 point out that all of your experience here on site is 10 from the Salem side?
11
- Correct.
12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And when we are 13 discussing any of this information it would all be 14 relevant to what you have gotten from the Salem side?
15 WI, .N Correct.
16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. In talking 17 about the safety conscious work environment, there is 18 a lot obviously that goes into that, and in 19 considering that, do employees raise concerns of a 20 nuclear safety nature, and do they do so without fear 21 of retaliation?
22 And when they do raise concerns how are 23 they handled? All the way through decisions that go 24 into -- you know, basic plant operations, what I am 25 asking you to consider is -- and I guess let's go back NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 to 2000, and this would be in your0lItime frame.
2 Okay.
3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: In the past couple of S4 years have you seen any changes in what you consider 5 the safety conscious work environment, and have you 6 witnessed any changes one way or the other, for the 7 better or for the worse?
B . I would-say that I have 9 not seen any significant changes. I believe there is 10 probably a lot more issues with the plant now that are 11 brought up, only because I feel that the plant is now 12 suffering a little bit from maintenance in some 13 respects, and how we prioritize our work management.
14 That's about it.
15 I mean, I don't see any differences in 16 people's ability or how they bring issues to the 17 table.
18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you think that has 19 been -regular. and consistent?
20 I think that 21 from what I see, yes, I think that is the same people 22 that bring up issues and bring them up to the same 23 people, and I get issues brought up to me by my 24 equipment operators, by the NCOs, and deal with them 25 as they come, and if I don't give them satisfactory NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 results, they continue on.
2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And what kind of 3 issues? Can you give me an example?
.Jut accepting a piece 4
5 of equipment back without all of the maintenance being 6 performed, and it is elective type maintenance, and it 7 is not maintenance to maintain the piece of equipment, 8 and bring it back to us, but to make it whole a 9 hundred percent.
10 You know, we may accept some things that 11 we know that we can get in the next work window if we 12 want to bring a piece of equipment back, but none that 13 affect operability of that equipment, but things that 14 we would do, and maybe reduce the outage time on 15 something.
16 There is just a lot of things out there to 17 do, like painting of equipment, or clean up, and stuff 18 of that nature.
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And so you are seeing 20 an increase in that kind of initiative with 21 maintenance?
22 .Yes. I would say, yes.
23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And what do you 24 attribute it to? What is different now than how it 25 was before?
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1 ...- .... Well, I think that we 2 had a reorganization now that is -- you know, that 3 people are getting comfortable with their positions, 4 and are learning their positions, and I just feel that 5 maybe moving our management around as much as we have 6 over the past couple of years, maybe leadership wise, 7 and direct wise within our departments, we are not 8 working together as well as we could.
9 But we do get things done, and we work 10 together, and the bottom line is that we work to the 11 same schedule.
12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And the leadership 13 positions Jthat you are seeing the movement.in, which 14 ones affected this? A 15 MP ;Well, I just think the 16 whole leadership from managers and above, from 17 probably ops manager, and maintenance managers, and is vPs, directors, across the site have sort of been 19 moved around and changed.
20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Across the board 21 41
.,.Correct.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Those are 23 issues in terms of maintenance and repairs, and that 24 type of thing. In terms of nuclear safety issues, and 25 if there is an issue regarding plan operability, and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 tech specs, and things along those lines, (a) have you 2 seen issues like that raised and addressed, and I will 3 ask it in two parts that way.
4 Can you think of an issue along those 5 lines?
6 .,Veell, yeah. We had an 7 issue come out of the outage with RHR heat exchange 8 operability, and we have had questions with regard to 9 CFCU operability. We have had Part 21 issues with 10 breakers that we have determined operability through 11 an operability determination.
12 And we have discussed it with appropriate 13 licensing and engineering people, and get that 14 involved, and come up with a decision, and I think it 15 is not made on a one person basis. It is pretty much 16 made with all the input that we could gather.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And these issues that 18 you are throwing out there, are they -- what time 19 frame is this?
20 ( This is within the past 21 year or two.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And the issues 23 that you just mentioned, from what you have seen and 24 from what you have witnessed with them, are you fairly 25 well satisfied with how they are raised and handled, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 and how they are answered?
2 Yes. Yes.
3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And are these issues 4 that you have had a direct involvement with?
5 Yeah, I mean, there are 6 issues that require SRO approval before we move on, 7 and we accepted it and it goes to SORC (phonetic).
8 Not all operability determinations go through SORC, 9 but most of them will.
10 And they get the review by a committee of 11 on site personnel that are able to educately (sic) 12 question what is being done.
13 MR. BARBER: Can you maybe describe some 14 of the details of those operability evaluations? You 15 mentioned RHR, and --
16 'Well, there was leakage 17 on the RHR heat exchanger, and the one that was most 18 recently done on Unit 2 with respect to leakage from 19 a gasket. The engineer and the boric acid corrosion 20 ISI got involved.
21 They determined the leakage amount, and 22 the long term effects, and the effects on ECCS leakage 23 in the auxiliary building, and when it would be an 24 issue, and when we would have to do something about 25 it.
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1 The required compensatory actions that 2 would be required, and it is a document that you 3 follow procedurally, and make sure that you cover all 4 bases.
5 MR. BARBER: Have you ever felt that some 6 of those -- some engineering decisions were maybe on 7 the weak side, or maybe they covered some of the 8 bases, but not everything?
9 i mean, I don't know about the RHR one 10 would fit that bill, or CFCUs, or --
II We have probably had 12 some operability determinations or answers from 13 engineering that I personally may have questioned, but 14 it wasn't anything that they weren't willing to 15 research and then give me an answer on.
16 MR. BARBER: How does that typically go?
17 Let's say -- and you mentioned the leakage on the 18 (inaudible), and let's say an engineer brings you back 19 some information and says, okay, I think this is what 20 we ought to do, and we ought to do this, this, and 21 this.
22 Right.
23 MR. BARBER: And in your own mind, you 24 think, well, that's a good start, but like we need to 25 do these additional things. How does the interaction NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 go? If you really feel like there is something else 2 that is necessary, how do you present that, and what 3 kind of feedback do you get?
4 Well, we have a 5 technical issues process that we can follow, and in 6 which anyone that would be involved would be brought 7 into the room, and everyone that could speak to the 8 issue or the problem, and have input, maintenance, 9 engineering, and planning, and operations.
10 They would discuss the issue, and then 11 everyone would break and get some type of information 12 that they would need, and then we would come back and 13 see how the tech issues were resolved, or how we are 14 going to fix it.
15 And them more questions would come about 16 from that second meeting, and then we would break and 17 determine how that would be resolved, and then come 18 back. And then before anything would go on, that 19 problem would be taken care of, or those questions 20 would be resolved.
21 MR. BARBER: Okay. Let's talk some 22 specifics about RHR. What tech specs might apply to 23 RHR?
24-Well, you have RHR 25 operability.
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1 MR. BARBER: And that is 351, right, or 2 352, depending on what mode you are in, right?
3 16For ECCS, right.
4 MR. BARBER: Okay. What else?
5 You also have the 6 requirements for control and habitability for ECCS 7 leakage outside containment.
8 MR. BARBER: Okay. And a GDC-19 type 9 thing?
10 . . .. Right. It was ii determined not to be an ASME leak, and so that would 12 not apply.
13 MR. BARBER: Okay. Now, that is a good 14 point. Now, why do you say that it would not be an 15 ASME leak?
16 S' It is a gasketed 17 surface, and it is not degradation on the ASME vessel 18 itself.
19 MR. BARBER: The pressure boundary you're 20 saying?
21 *R ight.
22 MR. BARBER: And so it is mechanically?
23
-Correct.
24 MR. BARBER: And is there something in 25 that tech spec that specifically excludes pressure NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 boundary leakage? I'm sorry, that specifically 2 excludes mechanical joint leakage.
3 I don't know. I would 4 have to look at the tech spec. I can't recall right 5 off the top of my head.
6 MR. BARBER: Okay. Ail right.
7 U' I know that if you look 8 at the ASME tech spec, the IS3LE (phonetic) definition 9 is the first valve from the reactor cooling system, 10 and then thereafter is not considered if it is ISBLE 11 by a valve.
12 MR. BARBER: So that is Code Class I.
13 ;Right.
14 MR. BARBER: And there is also Code Class 15 II, and Code Class III performance, right?
16 w :Right.
17 MR. BARBER: And do you know what RHR it 18 would fall under?
19 W- UP INP14..Mq . No, I would have to 20 look at it 21 MR. BARBER: It is Code Class II.
22 ti All right. (Inaudible) 23 pressure outage is Code Class I, and RHR and your ECCS 24 are all Code Class II, and your cooling water system 25 is like service water, and things of that nature, are NEAL R. GROSS !
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1 Code Class III. Okay.
2 MR. BARBER: Okay. Any other tech specs 3 that you can think of? I mean, I guess I am trying to 4 understand the thought process. So when something 5 like this comes up do you automatically get tech specs 6 out and refer to that, or do you rely on the CRS to do 7 that?
8 , Well, no, we all get 9 involved and look at it, and come up with what we feel 10 would be applicable.
11 MR. BARBER: Okay. All right.
12 I mean, when you feel 13 and when you have reasonable assurance that it is 14 operable, okay, but then degraded, then you are into 15 the operability determination space.
16 MR. BARBER: Okay.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And in which you get 18 the information and conclude that it is operable or 19 inoperable. Operable, but degraded, concludes 20 operable. In other words, it is operable for all its 21 functions.
22 MR. BARBER: Okay. For its entire mission 23 time?
24 For what we consider, 25 yes.
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1 MR. BARBER: Okay. Do you remember how 2 long that was, and what the mission plan was for RHR?
3 No, I don't.
4 MR. BARBER: Okay.
5 Not specifically I 6 don't, no.
7 MR. BARBER: How about the CFCU issue?
8 What was the nature of the problem there? You 9 mentioned CFCU.
10 SWell, we have the CFCU 11 valves with when we stroke time them, and sometimes we 12 have varying stroke times that are outside the 13 acceptable range.
14 MR. BARBER: Slow response time?
15 ** Slow response time, and 16 there was a MENSTOP (phonetic) question on all of the 17 SW-65 valves, and with two engineers --
18 MR. BARBER: What are SW-65s? What are 19 they functionally?
20 S"They are the back 21 pressure control valve, which allows flow in the high 22 speed to go to the motor cooler, or low speed, high 23 flow.
\F\\\,
24 MR. BARBER: Okay.
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1 with the issue and they stayed late one evening, and 2 they stayed late one evening, and they went in 3 containment, and they got the data that they believed 4 satisfied reasonable assurance, and it was not an 5 issue that made the fan cooling units inoperable.
6 And developed a plan to get them repaired, 7 and ensured that maintenance plans in the future were 8 repaired, and so when they actually worked these 9 valves, they did the MENSTOP set point on them, and I 10 believe we closed out the last fan cooling unit here 11 recently.
12 MR. BARBER: Okay. Thanks.
13 '-That is just an 14 example, two examples of how the process is working.
15 MR. BARBER: Okay. Do you have any other 16 examples. Do you have any other examples where you 17 have had issues with the way that things have 18 unfolded? It doesn't have to be a big issue, but it 19 could be something even minor where you -- I don't 20 know. Like say b*4*s5, and brass tends to be a big 21 issue here.
22 Let's say you had a problem with the 23 position that the plant was in, and the frass 24 conditions, and either start up and shut downs and up 25 powers and down powers?
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1 .We have been in a 2 position where we have been shut down, and we tripped 3 the plant, and ....
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: When was this,i 5 It was 2003, and it had 6 to be the spring of 2003. I believe it was Unit 2.
7 The plant was tripped based on grassing. The restart 8 effort was delayed because we wanted to take some 9 actions at circ water, and there may have been 10 differences of opinion on where we were at with the 12 hardiness of circ water prior to bringing it back.
12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What was the range on 13 that?
14The number of 15 circulators that were available, and where we were at 16 with the ones that were not back.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Who was involved in 18 the opinion? I mean, were you on shiftf or was 19 somebody else n shift?1o 20 I was'*on shif. I was 21 !on shif and then anybody that was off shift that 22 would be involved in the start up was there. I mean, 23 it was a forced outage, and so there was a lot of 24 people there. I can't remember who exactly was there.
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1 down on this outage? Where were you and where were 2 others?
3 * ....
- I thought that we could 4 have waited a little bit longer to get the circulators 5 back.
6 MR. BARBER: Did you have a certain number 7 that you were looking for?
8
- Well, initially we said 9 that we were going to wait until we had a minimum, and 10 we wanted all the circulators back.
11 MR. BARBER: Okay.
12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Now, who is we? I'm 13 sorry to do this to you, but --
.14 This was between -- I 15 don't remember who my relief was. This was between me 16 and -- I was ýon shif' and my relief was rn shiftjand 17 this circ water team, which was assembled in the OCC, 18 said that we are going to come up with the six 19 circulators, and I believe it was six, prior to start 20 up.
21 So we believed that the commitment was 22 six, and I think prior to start up that we were having 23 trouble with the last circulator, and it was either a 24 parts issue, or a maintenance issue that we were 25 waiting on.
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1 And we had been through several tide 2 changes, and one of the big things that I wanted to 3 see was how the circ water system handled the tide 4 change, and then once I saw that we handled the tide 5 change without any issues, then I was more 6 comfortable.
7 I mean, I was more towards waiting until 8 the sixth circulator was back, but we went to a tide 9 change, and we had no issues, and the screens handled 10 it, and the screen wash was fine.
11 I felt that the screens that we had were 12 hardy enough to where we could continue with the power 13 ascension.
14 MR. BARBER: Were you at a certain power 15 when you were making this evaluation?
16 'i No, we were shut down.
17 We were just proceeding into the start up.
18 MR. BARBER: How about procedurally? Was 19 there a certain minimum that the procedure would call 20 for?
21 It says that circ water 22 is, or the IOP says circ water is in surface, and I 23 believe a minimum of four pumps is what it says.
24 MR. BARBER: Does it actually say that in 25 there?
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1 I don't know for sure.
2 I would have to look at it.
3 MR. BARBER: But there was a number less 4 than six is what you are saying?
5 - II....I'f* < There may not be. It 6 may just say circulating water is in service in 7 accordance with the operating procedure.
8 MR. BARBER: But if I went to the 9 operating procedure, what would it say? Would it tell 10 me --
11 : No. Less than two, or 12 if there is one out of service, then you are not in an 13 abnormal procedure. If you have two out of service, 14 then you are in an abnormal procedure.
15 MR. BARBER: Okay.
16 R j So we were not in the 17 abnormal procedure from what I recall, and I don't 18 remember, but I mean there was a lot of -- some people 19 felt that they would rather not start up, and others 20 felt that we were satisfactory to start up. There was 21 definitely a difference of opinion between the group 22 of people that were on-site that evening.
23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And who was thinking 24 that you could start up? Who was satisfied with it?
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1 I can't remember. I don't remember specific names.
2 I mean, everyone that would be required to make the 3 decisions to start at the plant was either on the 4 conference phone call or at the site, and so it would 5 have been 1who was involved, and who was 6 underneath. *for' It would have -been -- /
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF:
8 m w Iwas 9 involved, and the ii of course,. was 10 involved, which at the time would have been And i i *,iand, 12 An additional shift manager was probably 13 there supporting the outage, and then of course the 14 control room team was brought into it, because they 15 are going to be starting up the plant, and so the CRS 16 was questioned, and the ROs were h s So there 17 was a lot of discussion that evening.
18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And when you are 19 saying that there were differing opinions, and people 20 were more comfortable waiting until you had more 21 circulators, where was the other side of it? Who was 22 on that side of it; satisfied with what you had, and 23 go ahead and start up?
24 Like I said, I went 25 through a tide change, and after I saw the tide NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 change, I was comfortable with starting the plant up.
2 I believe the CRS was comfortable. There was probably 3 two of the ROs thought maybe, hey, let's just wait.
4 Another one of the ROs said, hey, I think 5 we are okay. I mean, I don't remember specifics, and 6 I don't remember names.
7 MR. BARBER: Could it have been less than 8 five? Could it have been 4 or 3?
9 . It was probably 50-50 10 between the number of people that felt that we were 11 okay, and let's proceed, and --
12 MR. BARBER: No, no. I mean, you 13 described it as between 5 and 6 circulators. Could it 14 have been between 3 and 4 circulators?
15 No, no, it was not. -I 16 know that it wasn't three.
17 MR. BARBER: Okay.
18 d And it was definitely 19 at a minimum four, and I am pretty sure that it was 20 five, because we were waiting on one circulator.
21 MR. BARBER: All right.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And something like 23 that would be documented, right?
24 Yes.
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1 research something on that, in terms of the numbers 2 that you were dealing with? ..
3,jrS ,fl. Right.
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You just seemed a 5 little fuzzy on that, on the specifics.
6 I have been five, or 7 four, startups since then, and so they all kind of run 8 together.
9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And in this 10 particular startup involving the grassing, do you 11 recall where stood on the issue?
12 j*5. Yeah, I believe that he 13 thought that we should wait.
14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: He wanted you to 15 wait?
16 MDýI believe he wanted to 17 wait, yes.
18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It has been reported 19 that there was some level of frustration on his part 20 in trying to make that point.
21 Un-huh.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And it has been 23 reported that it was becaus as pushing 24 for the start-up. Do .you recall that happening?
25 I do recall that he and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 j probably had a disagreement, but --
2 MR. BARBER: Were you involved with that?
3 I mean, did you see that?
- ,,No, I overheard it, and 5 I did not get involved in the specifics. I know that 6 probably felt that it wasn't -- I believe that he 7 left the room at one point, and I believe there was a 8 conference call in my office, and at that point, you 9 know, I was more involved in the startup in and out, 10 and I know thatl*,*nded up leaving the room from a 11 conference call.
12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Due to the 13 frustration?
14 UP.( Yes, I believe so.
15 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The direction that 16 __Wwas pushing for, were you in agreement 17 with that?
18 I believe initially, 19 no, I was not. I believe thatf definitely went 20 through is points why he thought it was safe to start 21 up the plant. And then towards the end, he asked the 22 question that if anyone feels that they are being 23 pressured to start up the plant, then we have the 24 decision to start it or not start up the plant.
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1 to anybody that evening and said I don't care what you 2 say. You are starting up the plant, and that never 3 occurred.
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And the-7 5 asked the question if anybody felt pressure?
6 "AA O Correct.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Was he looking for an 8 answer on that, or do you feel that --
9 No, because actually I 10 needed to ask him for the sign-off in the IOP to start 11 the plant up, and he specifically asked me, and he 12 said that I should not sign this book or this 13 procedure under pressure to start up the plant.
14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You shouldn't?
N15 : Correct.
16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Not him, but you 17 shouldn't?
18 -. Correct.
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It was your decision, 20 right?
21 ow Right. I am the(
22 that evening, and so--
23 SPECIL AGENT NEFF: And when you say 24 initially that you didn't agree with him?
25 Correct.
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1 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And then you 2 mentioned that there was a tide change, and you --
3
- Correct. We went 4 through the evening, and we saw how the circ water 5 progressed, and how we handled the tide change, and we 6 got through the start up and into the morning, and as 7 a matter of fact, we turned over going into about 5 8 percent power I think it was to the next shift.
9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And at the point when 10 you are in agreement and you are no longer waiting, 11 and you are going into the start-up, did you feel 12 pressure at that point?
13 No. I felt like there 14 was a difference of opinion between who thought we 15 were starting -up the plant, and who thought that we 16 shouldn't start up the plant.
17 MR. BARBER: Was there any procedural 18 issues?
19 -No, there were no 20 procedural issues, and there was no safety 21 significance. What it was is making the plant the 22 best that it could possibly be before you start the 23 plant up.
24 In other words, if we had a plan,"
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1 whole, i.e., all six circulators back a hundred 2 percent, and that plan is in place, and it is working, 3 then you parallel progress to get to the point of 4 where you would be.
5 Now, there have been some people that 6 thought that we should have gotten to that point 7 before we went into the start-up, and the plant is 8 designed where we can operate, or we can trip the 9 plant and be in Mode 3 where we were with no 10 circulators. We don't need the secondary plant at 11 all.
12 We have MS-10s and we have ox-feed water, 13 and so that --
14 MR. BARBER: But that is not the most 15 desirable limit to be in?
16 - <Correct. We had cooled 17 down a Mode-5, which procedurally we could do.
18 MR. BARBER: And, yes, you can do all of 19 that, and you also can analyze for an accident, but 20 you don't want that. I guess the question that I have 21 is if you were at a hundred percent power and you lost 22 your circulator would you be required or --
23
- One circulator?
24 MR. BARBER: Yes. Would here be any need 25 for you to reduce power?
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1 No, we routinely cycle 2 out circulators to clean the condenser and the water 3 boxes.
4 MR. BARBER: Okay. Was that some of the -
5 - was that also a point that -offered?
6 Did he say, hey, look, if we were at full power when 7 this happened, and we wouldn't even think twice about 8 it.
9 I don't know if it was 10 him. I am sure that everybody discussed that.
11 MR. BARBER: Okay.
12 1 believe that everyone 13 discussed that at that point.
14 MR. BARBER: All right. So the difference 15 was between 5 and 6 circulators?
16 i am not sure. I am 17 pretty sure it was between 5 or 6.
18 MR. BARBER: All right. And if it would 19 have been between 4 and 5, would that have changed 20 your opinion?
21 If there were four 22 circulators, and there were no clear path within the 23 next 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> to get 2 of the 4 back, or two of the 24 remaining that were out of service back, then I 25 probably would have stood with that we need to stay NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 where we are at. Excuse me one second.
2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Let's take a quick 3 break. It is 5:41.
4 (Whereupon, at 5:41 p.m., the interview 5 was recessed and resumed at 5:42 p.m.)
6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It is 5:42 p.m., and 7 we are back on the record after a brief break. We 8 were discussing, or you were saying, and I think one 9 of the last thoughts were that had you had only four 10 circulators, and you were waiting on having the two 11 restored, it would not have been a position that you 12 would have been comfortable to start up in?
13 Right. If there were 14 no clear paths to get the two remaining back, I 15 probably would not have been as comfortable starting 16 it or seeing the tide change. As I said, I don't 17 remember specifics.
18 It may have been four, and two were 19 tagged, but then again I am pretty sure that it was 20 five. And we may have cycled one out for cleaning, 21 but like I said, the narrative logs would be available 22 for that time frame.
23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: To see where you 24 stood?
25 To see exactly where it NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 was, right.
2 MR. BARBER: Did you say that you did 3 remember when that was or not?
4 limi im"It was this year. It 5 was the spring of 2003.
6 MR. BARBER: All right.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But I guess if you 8 have a succession of these grassing events, can you 9 put any more of a fine point on the date on that? I 10 mean, it is not like a once and done incident, right?
11 No,1 believe it was 12 March. It was definitely Unit 2.
13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Unit 2 in March?
14
- Right, and I believe 15 that Unit 2 was the unit that we tripped due to 16 grassing.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And overall 18 what you are saying is that you were comfortable and 19 not pressured to make that decision?
20 I thought that evening 21 went and there were a lot of emotions, and a lot of 22 differences of opinion, and I believe that I signed 23 the book and I agreed to start the plant up.
24 So if I didn't feel that we procedurally 25 could handle any situation, and where we could safely NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 stop the start up and shut the plant down, I would not 2 have proceeded.
3 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. But my 4 question was were you comfortable in the ability to 5 make that decision as the .... and were you 6 comfortable an not pressured in that decision?
7 Yes. I am fully 8 comfortable, regardless of whatý - or 9 present said, o -L' presently would now say to 10 me. I have an obligation, and I have a license, and 11 they do not.
12 So my obligation is to do what is right 13 for the plant, regardless of what they tell me,a nd 14 regardless of the pressure that I feel, and I 15 understand that responsibility. And I know that 16 everybody on my shift understands that responsibility.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And it is your 18 testimony that though you may have started out more in 19 line with the conservative thought on that, it was the 20 tide change, the change in the water, that had you 21 change in thinking when the screen is clear?
22 m Correct. And I also 23 realized that the start up sequence would take the 24 whole shift, and so we would see how the circ water 25 system would handle the tide change or the grassing, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 and we would be in a position in the morning to 2 determine how the evening went, and how the grassing 3 took place.
4 And everybody in management there that 5 could have viewed it, and would have said, hey, we are 6 not in a good condition, and we need to stop.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: In conversations with 8 shift management, and your peers and Crs, did you 9 indicate to anybody there that you had felt pressure 10 regarding this particular decision?
11 ~JS We probably did, yes.
12 We probably felt like there was --
13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: When you say we, who 14 is we?
15 1- "'j*] Whoever was there that 16 evening.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You, 18 backup?
19
- Right. -r 20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Your 21 ... Right, correct.
22 We probably felt like there was some pressure from 23 above to start-up the plant, right. There was never 24 that you are going to start the plant up, and I am 25 your boss, and that is what you are going to do.
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1 It was tell me why you can't start up the 2 plant. It was always a questioning, and hey, tell me 3 why it is any different, or tell me what is going to 4 be different 12 hours1.388889e-4 days <br />0.00333 hours <br />1.984127e-5 weeks <br />4.566e-6 months <br /> from now, or it was always that 5 tone, and it was never I am this person, and you are 6 starting the plant up. It was never that.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. But now --
8 .*I as the.
9 on duty that night had by all rights to say I am not 10 going to start up the plant, and you can relieve me, 11 and if you feel you need to start up the plant, then 12 go ahead.
13 But there would have been no one there on 14 shift that evening that would have said, okay, I am 15 going to relieve you, and you are going to start up 16 the plant. That was not the case.
17 MR. BARBER: And you felt like it was 18 coming to th iat?
- 4"7/l 19 No.
20 MR. BARBER: Or were you heading in that 21 direction?
22 !I**.L--. - No No.
23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I guess it is just a 24 little troublesome, because the picture that you are 25 portraying is we would say that we felt pressure, but NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 you are the decision maker and you are saying that you 2 weren't pressured in making that decision. So could 3 you just be a little more clear on who was feeling 4 that pressure then? You are saying that we 5 collectively, and yeah, you might have indicated to 6 somebody that there was some pressure.
7 7-1 Right.
8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But you are saying 9 that you made your decision independent of that.
10 There was pressure, but you made your decision 11 independently?
12 JM,
- Yeah. I mean, if we 13 are kicking back to say, hey, we want this, and this, 14 and this to occur, and us is the operations 15 department, ideally we want everything fixed a hundred 16 percent. Is that always going to occur? No. It 17 doesn't occur anywhere, right?
18 There is always a little bit of delta 19 between what you get and what you want. So based on that, I felt like 2 was applying some pressure to 20 21 say, hey, what is any different 12 hours1.388889e-4 days <br />0.00333 hours <br />1.984127e-5 weeks <br />4.566e-6 months <br /> or 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br /> 22 from now. He felt that we could safely start up the 23 plant.
24 And he as the of the site 25 wanted us to start up the plant.
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1 MR. BARBER: Let me ask a question, a 2 related question, but slightly different. Have you S ever been in a situation previously, and maybe you 4 weren' t the. or 5 but with different leadership, and noti 6 and someone else, and one of his predecessors. Were 7 these kind of conversations taking place?
8 No. No, I don't 9 remember anyone where this type of conversation was 10 taking place.
11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You know what else I 12 see? Just a discrepancy. Did you say that you were theFoi>*Q-.Yu just got on 13 14 in April?>
15 0.4-W7Ma arch, Aprilf1 yes 16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And so you had just 17 gotten on at this time?
18 L*"2--LP: : t *Yes. It was like 19 within the first month that I was standing watch, yes.
20 Actually, I was qualified before that, and so I may 21 have even been standing watch for somebody. I got a in the,/March-Apriltime frame.
22 23 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Was that in any way 24 a factor for you being a! and 25 being faced with this situation where you have you ,
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1 2 other?
3 No, not at all. I 4 would not have taken the position if I was not 5 confident in my decision making capability.
6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay.
7- IAnd I fully understand 8 that he can - tha an- - .
9 *<could have requested me to do 10 anything at that plant, and I had the right to tell ii them no.
12 And if they so want me relieved, then that 13 is in their power to relieve me, but I can tell them 14 no, and not do it.
15 MR. BARBER: But it seems unusual. This 16 is the first time that you have been exposed to this, 17 and being in the control room for 6, 7, 8 years, and 18 you never seen anything like this?
19 - No.
20 MR. BARBER: Did it strike you as unusual?
21 M.BBR Bc Yes.
22 MR. BARBER: Because you had never seen it 23 before?
24 .... " es. But maybe I had 25 never been in the position. The CRS typically does NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 not get involved in the here is what we are going to 2 do with the plant decision. He more gets involved in 3 where the shift manager will come in and say, hey, 4 here is what we are going to do at the plant, and this 5 is what you need to do.
6 And then as a CRS, you then say, well, I 7 don't agree with that, and then he is not involved in 8 the large scale decision making on where we are going 9 to be with the plant. He implements the plan.
10 MR. BARBER: Okay.
-W Vý And when I am not 12 there, then he makes the decision. He is an SRO, and 13 he has input into the decision, sure.
14 MR. BARBER: Would he normally be a part 15 of the technical review team that you described?
16 01Sure. Yes.
17 MR. BARBER: So it is conceivable in the 18 past that you could have been exposed to a similar 19 circumstance if it were to occur?
20 Rgt 21 MR. BARBER: But it just never occurred?
22 - Correct. There was 23 never a -- not that I can recall, where there was a 24 difference in, hey, here is where we are at, and here 25 is what we should do with the plant. I mean, as the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 ROs, the union guys, you know, they at times would 2 feed back, hey, I think we should do this.
3 And then we would tell them no, and this 4 is what we are going to do and why. I mean, there is 5 always some differencing there. A little bit of back 6 and forth sometimes between them. But never of the 7 scale of this.
8 MR. BARBER: How about with, say, 9 **- was for a number of 10 years. Did you ever have any interactions with him 11 where -- and maybe not on grassing, but in other 12 instances where there were situations where he was 13 pushing for something that just seemed like --
14 : No, quite the opposite.
15 I remember that *was adamant, and yelled 16 at us one day when we were isolating condencency, and 17 he thought there was some equipment operators that 18 were doing some things unsafe.
19 You know, he came in, and he shut down the 20 job. I never had that kind of incident with 21 MR. BARBER: Okay.
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1 or the push, and not direction, but questioning from 2 senior management. Can you think of any other 3 instances where that has occurred?
4 No.
5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Have you been 6 involved in anything since?
7 ~EEJ No.
8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And so grassing is 9 just a unique situation?
10
- Right.
11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And considering that 12 in terms of whether if plant management differed with 13 senior management, was senior management taking a more 14 conservative approach than plant managers were? Can 15 you think of any incidents of that?
16 A Not specifics, but I 17 can say that in the outage that there is several 18 directions that you can take with regard to bus 19 availability, and equipment availability, and whereas, 20 me being personally involved, I would be a little more 21 aggressive with where we would want to move the plant, 22 and senior management would say no and be more 23 conservative about what we want to do with equipment 24 and moving the plant.
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1 management who would that be? Can you be -- you are 2 saying non-specifics, and --
3 4 yes.
5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: But you don't have 6 like any incidents?
7 No, I can't remember 8 anything specific.
9 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you have anything 10 further on this?
11 MR. BARBER: No, I don't think so. Not on 12 this.
13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: I guess in general 14 what I would like to ask you is the environment, and 15 we will go back to my original question on whether you 16 have seen any changes, and we will go and say 2 or 3 17 years until now.
18 The ability for people to -- if they have 19 an issue, or a concern, to raise that, and do they?
20 Yes.
21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And we are interested 22 in both industrial safety and where the union 23 sometimes gets involved and has issues.
-, Yes.
24 25 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: As well as NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 operability type of issues, and somebody has a 2 concern, and are they able to raise it. Do you see 3 people do that?
4
- Yes.
5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: On a regular basis?
6 .*eYes.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do people have -- are 8 they able to do that without fear of being retaliated 9 against?
10 I believe so, yes.
11 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And are you aware of 12 any instances where somebody might claim that they 13 were mistreated or somehow adversely affected because 14 they raised a concern?
15 There may be some 16 equipment operators that feel that they were treated 17 wrongly for bringing up industrial safety concerns.
18 But I know that the equipment operators bring up 19 industrial safety concerns all the time and we resolve 20 them.
21 I mean, we have an equipment operator that 22 is specifically assigned to safety issues, and their 23 sole purpose is to resolve, and correct, and identify 24 safety -- industrial safety consequences in the plant.
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1 belief that that night be what happened to them, it 2 did not hinder anybody from continuing to raise 3 concerns?
4 No. No, because like 5 I said, there are safety concerns raised almost every 6 day on issues that -- you know, maybe there is a 7 knowledge deficiency, or hey, this valve we can't get 8 to, and what is the best way to do it. We will build 9 scaffolding.
10 I mean, that happens on a day to day 11 basis. Every day something like that occurs, and to 12 where someone thinks there is a safer way to do it, 13 and we do it differently.
14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Anything along that 15 line?
16 am.: There is never a "just 17 do it anyway" attitude when it comes to safety.
18 Never. I have never seen that.
19 MR. BARBER: Have you ever been exposed to 20 a situation where a senior manager would have tried to 21 exert any kind of influence about following a 22 procedure a certain way?
23 Like either a surveillance procedure, or 24 an operating procedure, where you or 'our shiftare 25 moving towards step wise, and there has been a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 situation where someone has said that you don't need 2 to do that step, or that is unimportant, or you can do 3 it out of order or sequence?
4 Well, yeah, there is 5 probably -- you know, during plant start ups or 6 whatever, there is some steps that some people think 7 are required, and they interpret it differently.
8 MR. BARBER: Have you got compliance 9 levels, or if you are --
10 Yes, Category I, and 11 Category II.
12 MR. BARBER: And what exactly is Category 13 I and Category II?
-7t-14 ------Category I is step by 15 step as written, or if not --
16 MR. BARBER: What about substeps? Like if 17 there is a Step 5.3, and it has an (a), (b), and (c) 18 below it. Can you do those in any order?
19 - No.
20 MR. BARBER: They have to be in order?
21 S j U Correct.
22 MR. BARBER: What if they are bulleted?
23 Then they can be done 24 in any order.
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1 some examples of things that have come up that --
2 A Well, one that comes to 3 mind right now is regarding a circ order. Oh, placing 4 circulators in service. The procedure used to say 5 that the priming system is in service for the water 6 boxes, and the priming system is no longer required 7 for circulators or water boxes to go in service.
8 MR. BARBER: Okay.
9 So there were probably 10 lengths of time where people were just, hey, either 11 NAing that step, and then people brought it to the 12 attention that that is probably a compliance issue, 13 and we changed the procedure.
14 MR. BARBER: Okay. And how about any more 15 or any other procedures?
16
- Well, like in the IOPs, 17 there may be certain pieces of equipment that can be 18 bought back in different times within the procedure, 19 and other procedures may conflict and bring that back 20 earlier, or allow you to do that sooner, and there may 21 be a difference there, and I can't be specific. I 22 can't think of anything specific.
23 MR. BARBER: Is there a consequence 24 because of that?
25 No.
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1 MR. BARBER: I mean, if it breaks up the 2 vac in the wrong order, is there any consequence?
3 No. No, I can't think 4 of any. I believe our procedures are well written.
5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: We are now on Side B, 6 and it is approximately 5:59 p.m.
7 I believe our 8 procedures are well written, and I believe we have the 9 full support to stop at any time and get the procedure 10 changed, and get the proper support for our 11 procedures.
12 MR. BARBER: All right. How about --
13 well, have you ever been a party to any kind of 14 discussions? Do you have like routine meetings with 15 the shift managers?
16 Yes 17 MR. BARBER: And are they led by anybody, 18 or they are just --
19 They are typically led 21 MR. BARBER: Okay. And is that just done 22 as a part of a routine part of rour shift)schedule?
23 I mean, is there a certain -- just tell me how that 24 works.
25 ' We have it like every NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 other Thursday, from 4:30 to 6:30.
2 MR. BARBER: And how does it work from a 3 coverage standpoint? I mean, is everybody expected to 4 be there, or is it --
5 Yes, everybody is 6 expected to be there.
7 MR. BARBER: Okay. And then some people 8 are on days off and things like that?
9 S...h .. Days off, right.
10 MR. BARBER: Is there ever any discussion 11 during those meetings about interactions with senior 12 management, and what senior management has asked you 13 to do?
14 No, none that I can 15 recall. It has typically been departmental issues or 16 where we are going with the department, or union 17 management issues. Those types of natures, you know, 18 outage planning, and --
19 MR. BARBER: There has never been any 20 feedback given through ops management about either 21 good things or bad things that have been done and 22 noted by senior management? Like we did a really good 23 job with the start up, or we were slow on this, or 24 slow on that, or we didn't address this very well?
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1 is never said specifically, hey, senior management.
2 Mliis usually there. If feels that something -
3 - you know, that he brings something up where we could 4 have done better, then that is where it is addressed.
5 MR. BARBER: How is that taken?
6 d It is taken well.
7 MR. BARBER: Okay.
8C - The feedback.
9 MR. BARBER: Has there ever been any kinds 10 of meetings or discussions like that that were held 11 off-site to your knowledge?
12 g No, not to my 13 knowledge. I have never been a part to one that has 14 been off-site.
15 MR. BARBER: Have you ever heard of any 16 that were held off-site?
17 Shift managers 18 meetings?
19 MR. BARBER: Either shift managers, or 20 CRS, operator meetings?
21 41 31rNo.
22 MR. BARBER: Because of either any 23 perceptions that there would be pressure from above to 24 do something a certain way, or a fear of being pushed 25 to do something that really didn't seem quite rigiht, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS -
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1 or safe, or --
2 No, I am not aware of 3 any meetings off-site of that nature, no, or on-site It of that nature.
5 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Can you recall any 6 meeting, wherever it may have occurred, among your 7 peers where it was felt that it was necessary to 8 present a united front?
9 .Yes, I think like we 10 always discuss like we need to get aligned on issues 1i regarding departmental stuff, like where we are at 12 with union type issues, and where we are at with 13 personnel, and where we are going to be, you know, 14 with regard to requirements or procedure changes that 15 each person is responsible for.
16 I mean, that is why we are all together, 17 to unify everybody, and to make sure that we are all 18 in alignment and a communication tool.
19 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And in terms of 20 getting together to create a united front to counter 21 something that is being presented to you from senior 22 management, some direction?
23 MR. BARBER: Or from another department, 24 either engineering or maintenance? Have you ever had 25 a discussion like that where you felt like --
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1 11ORfi. Not that I am aware of.
2 They may have gone right over my head that that is 3 what they wanted, but to be honest, I can't remember 4 anyone saying, hey, this is what such and such is 5 trying to do, and we need to do this to counteract 6 that, and we can't allow that to occur, because it is 7 going to affect us this way.
8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: The big concern is 9 this. It is very broad, a safety conscious work 10 environment issue.
11 ",Right.
12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: With a lot of issues 13 to it, and a lot of gripes to the problems that were 14 pointed out for the region. We are not here to make 15 you uncomfortable about having to answer these 16 questions.
17 Oh, I'm not.
18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Good. But what we 19 are saying is there is a lot around production over 20 safety, and where pressure was coming from, and 21 specifically on people in your position is what we are 22 hearing, and that it was an across-the-board concern 23 with Salem shift managers.
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1 was pressure from senior management, but it wasn't 2 pressure that you reacted to. You made your own 3 decision apparently.
4 I did make my own 5 decisions.
6 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And you were not 7 feeling pressure is what your testimony is?
8 1,,*iCorrect. I mean, I did 9 feel the pressure, but I made my decision based on my 10 ability to handle the situation. I mean, when I am at 11 the plant, I take it seriously. I am the person that 12 makes the decision on what happens at the plant when 13 I am there.
14 When I am not there, I don't do that, 15 right? I can't do that because I am not there. I 16 don't want to influence everybody, but I make my 17 decisions on what I am comfortable with.
18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And I think we got 19 that from you when we discussed that whole scenario.
20 . Right.
21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: What I am asking you 22 is, that in your knowledge, if it didn't happen to you 23 specifically, to your peers, to an! are you aware 24 of any other incidents that would lend any credibility 25 to the allegations that there is this production over NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 safety mindset? And I realize that --
2 - It is a generalized 3 term.
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: We are talking a gray 5 area.
6 ii*wi" " Right. Since 7 deregulation, that has been, hey, we can"t put 8 production ahead of safety, right? Deregulation, and 9 cut costs, and we need to be more productive, and we 10 need to get costs down. I mean, that environment is 11 there across the board. No doubt.
12 And the results are not being seen that we 13 should. The plant has not received the results based 14 on our outage time and bard on our force loss rate, 15 and all that stuff, and our performance indicators, 16 and in our See Performance--indicators, and our ECCS 17 equipment availability, and all of that is not where 18 it should be, and we want it to get better.
19 And from that standpoint, us as the 20 and I can't speak for all of them, we look 21 at that and we just say that maybe the money isn't 22 being spent where it should. Maybe we are not doing 23 this and we should be.
24 And we don' t hold the ultimate decision on 25 where all the money is spent, and what everybody does, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 and what everybody fixes.
2 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And this ties back to 3 your earlier stated maintenance concerns on issues 4 that --
5 That's exactly right, 6 and if it were up to me, I would want the plant a 7 hundred percent. I wouldn't accept it unless it was 8 a hundred percent on every single issue.
9 MR. BARBER: But you have accepted it with 10 less than that?
1i I have accepted it with 12 less than a hundred percent, right, knowing in my mind 13 that I have been convinced that I am on shift, and I 14 can take actions within our procedures, and I am not 15 outside our license, and we could perform actions to 16 put the plant in a safe condition.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And outside of that 18 incident that we talked about with you, if your gray 19 area is here, and you as a or another 20is ar to the right in this gray area, 21 are you aware of any other situations where senior 22 management is on the opposite end of that, and where 23 they are to the left?
24 Not right now, no.
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1 anything else?
2 MR. BARBER: Let me ask about a couple of 3 other specific instances that I just thought of. You 4 know, I was talking earlier about procedures and 5 whether there had been any input from senior managers, 6 or ops management for that matter, to kind of push the 7 procedure one way or another, and maybe against your 8 will, or against your better judgment. Were you ever 9 aware of a procedure for reactor vessel vent valve 10 surveillance that there was a senior manager that came 11 into the control room and suggested to a senior 12 operator that they N/A a step for a vent valve?
13 . No, I am not aware of 14 that.
15 MR. BARBER: So it didn't or nothing like 16 that ever happened to you, or you have never been 17 exposed to anything like that?
18 [ i No, that never happened 19 to me.
20 MR. BARBER: Okay.
21 Not that I am aware 22 of.
23 MR. BARBER: Okay.
24No 25 MR. BARBER: Okay. How about -- I mean, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 other than the grassing incident that we have already 2 discussed, have there been any other grassing 3 incidents that maybe there was some debate over what 4 to do with the plant, and what direction to take?
5 No, no. As a matter of 6 fact, there was a grassing incident on Unit 1, and 7 'was in the control room, and he fully 8 supported the direction. We reduced power on the 9 plant and we brought the plant down, and we didn't 10 come off-line, but we took action.
11 He was there, and right now there is on a 12 basis of when the grassing is serious from the recent 13 weather that we had, and there was a discussion of do 14 not hesitate to reduce power in the plant, and bring 15 the plant down, and put it in a safe condition.
16 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Whose direction was 17 that?
18 That was from 19 adand I am sure that 20 '(fully supports that right now.
21 MR. BARBER: How about -- were you 22 involved with the (inaudible( valve, the VF-19?
23 ..No, I was notA shifi4' 24 then. I was involved in the outage.
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1 was a leak from the main feed pump, a steam leak?
2 Yes. I was not there 3 on that, no.
4 MR. BARBER: You were not involved with 5 that at all?
6 MR. BARBER: No.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You were an(/ at 8 that point?
9 'Yes.was 10 involved, and I believed that he was involved in the 11 isolation of the steam link.
12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And that was in 13 September of 2002?"
14 - -MWNW Yes, and I was not 15 there. I was not involved.
16 MR. BARBER: Let me check my notes on some 17 things.
18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: You were not n shitC-19 for that?
20 J mflowi No, I was not there 21 that day. No.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: That has been a part 23 of some concern. Were you awafe of that, and did that 24 cause some -- apparently there were some meetings and 25 everything?
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1 "OMYes, he personally 2 isolated the valve because no one else felt safe to do 3 it, yes. Yes, I am aware of that.
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Was that done at his 5 -- was that his own decision to do that?
6 Yes, I believe so.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: We will just go off 8 the record briefly while you check your notes.
9 MW Okay. Can I make a 10 quick phone call?
11 (Brief recess.)
12 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. We are back on 13 and it is about 6:11.
14 MR. BARBER: I had some questions to ask 15 you. I asked you about if you were ever aware of any 16 N/A step (inaudible), and you said you were not?
17 I was not.
18 MR. BARBER: Okay. How about the treating 19 of leakage from the spent fuel pool? Have you been 20 involved with that at all?
21 No, only that I have 22 gotten tons of information about it, and our stance on 23 it and what we are doing, and to tell you the truth, 24 I could not speak on specifics, and just that I know 25 that we are taking corrective actions, and we are NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 digging some wells, and we are doing monitoring, and 2 we believe the leakage has stopped.
3 We are doing additional monitoring on the 4 leakage, and we have cleared out the telltale leakage 5 on the spent fuel pool, and on the liner, and we take 6 additional readings, and we are down there every shift 7 to observe any additional leakage.
8 MR. BARBER: Has there been any change in 9 the leakage?
10 Not that I am aware of, 11 no.
12 MR. BARBER: Okay. Are you doing anything 13 other than monitoring at this point? Is there any 14 plan for corrective action?
15 Yes, I believe there 16 is. Yes. Like I said, there is a long plan, and 17 there is a whole organization, a whole group of people 18 that are involved in it. I know that they are doing 19 monitoring, additional monitoring of wells, and they 20 are doing well digging, and additional well digging on 21 site.
22 MR. BARBER: Have you ever asked to have 23 that presented at your Thursday meetings?
24 I believe it was, and 25 I believe what happened is that we got into the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 outage, and then we have not revisited that. And in 2 the interim, they did send us a large e-mail with a 3 plan with everything that has been done up to this 4 point.
5 There is like I said documents based and 6 that have given a time line on what we found, and what 7 we are doing, and where we are going to be.
8 MR. BARBER: And another issue that has 9 come up is -- I guess a comment or question about use 10 of temporary logs, and there is an indication that 11 there may be an excessive use of that. And really I 12 think what the real underlying concern is not so much 13 the temporary logs, but the temporary logs are 14 indicative of equipment problems.
15 (11~i >i*~'.
- Right.
16 MR. BARBER: And that is why you have to 17 use temporary logs to compensate for the equipment 18 that is not operating properly.
19 Right.
20 MR. BARBER: What is your sense of that?
21 j I was an equipment 22 operator and I remember any temporary log that I was 23 given as an equipment operator, it was just something 24 that you did and you complained about it. Now whether 25 it was personal laziness, or if it was just, hey, what NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 are we doing here.
2 We are taking additional logs on something 3 because it is broken, and we can't fix it. My opinion 4 is that the operators monitor the equipment, and if we 5 give them an additional set of logs to take, we are 6 doing it for a reason.
7 We are monitoring that piece of equipment 8 to identify a problem that is going to occur, and yes, 9 we do look at it if it is excessive, and there is 10 conversations at times if it is excessive.
11 I know recently that we have reduced the 12 number significantly on Unit 2. I believe we are only 13 down to maybe half a dozen on Unit 2, and less than 14 that on Unit 1 probably right now. So there is 15 discussions, and whether it becomes excessive -- I am 16 a proponent of additional logs.
17 I think if we are additionally monitoring 18 something on a more frequent basis, that we are taking 19 action, and we are logging it, and retaining it, but 20 I am not a proponent of having additional logs out 21 there to compensate for faulty equipment.
22 MR. BARBER: All right. And do yo know 23 how many are open on Unit 1?
24 I don't know the 25 specifics.
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1 MR. BARBER: You said less than six.
2 :Yes, I believe so.
3 MR. BARBER: And how does that compare to 4 when you were. a*mm-1--- 5 Well, it is comparable.
6 We probably have more now than we did then. We 7 probably have more now than we did then.
8 MR. BARBER: And what kind of equipment 9 are they on?
10 ' It is leakage 11 monitoring more or less, valve leakage. The RHR heat 12 exchanger leakage, and some secondary plant stuff, and 13 valves that are in manual.
14 MR. BARBER: And what is the concern with 15 the RHR valve leakage?
16 i The heat exchanger 17 leakage.
18 MR. BARBER: Is that the concern that we 19 were just talking about earlier?
20 Yes. Every 24 hours2.777778e-4 days <br />0.00667 hours <br />3.968254e-5 weeks <br />9.132e-6 months <br />, 21 we go down there and take a look.
22 MR. BARBER: And I assume that there are 23 steps that you would take if the leakage increases by 24 a certain amount?
25 uorrect.
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1 MR. BARBER: Okay. How about if you are 2 ware of anything related to Salem ISI relief request 3 regarding some piping UT, and whether something was 4 processed properly or not?
5 No, I am not aware of 6 that.
7 MR. BARBER: Okay. Our details on that 8 are kind of sketchy. But another Salem issue, and 9 this is going back to when you were not a 10 but alo 00 ,lti l No, ..
11 This had to do with the Spring 2001 12 outage, or at least that is what we think the time 13 frame is.
14 Okay.
15 MR.,BARBER: There was a Salem I reactor 16 trip that was caused by a main generator current 17 transformer failure.
18 Okay.
19 MR. BARBER: That's what it says.
20 Okay. I think I 21 remember that.
22 MR. BARBER: And the *at the time 23 was iand he apparently told operations, and 24 I don't know if it was through the operations 25 management, or through the shift management, that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 there was a need to get the reactor started up by a 2 particular date, or an NRC performance indicator was 3 going to turn the light.
4 l am not aware of that.
5 MR. BARBER: apparently had some 6 discussions, some very vocal and maybe slightly 7 intimidating discussions with Ops daily. He kept 8 asking them when are you going to start the plant up, 9 and--
10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Were you involved in 11 any of the decision making discussions surrounding 12 that?
13 No.
14 MR. BARBER: Does any of this sound 15 familiar at all?
16 No, not at all.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you know who was 18 on shift or anything like that?
19 MR. BARBER: No, I do not.
20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So you don't know 21 anything?
22 -W No. I remember the 23 trip, and that is about it. I remember that we did 24 trip, but I don't remember anything or specifics about 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 MR. BARBER: And maybe it wasn'
- 2 and maybe it was somebody else. Do you remember any 3 discussion about pressure from senior management to 4 start the unit up?
5- . No, not from that trip, 6 not that I remember.
7 MR. BARBER: Do you know if this would 8 have been, as far as why a PI would turn white? Do 9 you guys get involved with discussions about NRC PIs?
10 Yes. Yes, we look at 11 the INPO indicators and also the NRC indicators.
12 MR. BARBER: Okay. And is that a factor 13 in why you do things?
14 .No, not at all. Not a 15 factor in anything.
16 MR. BARBER: When you say you look at 17 them, why do you look at them?
18 To say, hey, we have a 19 trend here or we need to address this area. We need 20 to do something about it.
21 MR., BARBER: Okay. And.how is that --
22 like, for example, if it was on down powers, what 23 would the discussion be? Let's say that one of the 24 Salem units was approaching a white PI for, say, down 25 powers.
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1 101 That would never be a 2 discussion, and we would not down power because we 3 were close to a performance indicator, an NRC 4 performance indicator.
5 MR. BARBER: Well, there is a couple of 6 different variables that goes with that, and one is a 7 scheduling of more than 20 percent, right? That is 8 one of the criteria?
9 :IW
/Right.
10 MR. BARBER: And the other one is if it is 11 planned, then it doesn't count.
12 Right.
13 MR. BARBER: So if you wait 72 hours8.333333e-4 days <br />0.02 hours <br />1.190476e-4 weeks <br />2.7396e-5 months <br />, and 14 you say, hey, we have a problem on feedwater here, and 15 if we wait 3 days --
16 I have not been 17 involved in any discussions where we have adjusted 18 what the plant is going to do based on a performance 19 indicator.
20 MR. BARBER: Okay. So are yo saying that 21 it doesn't come up in the discussions that you have 22 been a party to?
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1 performance indicator white.
2 MR. BARBER: Okay.
3 . W It would be an after 4 the fact, and it wouldn't be, hey, if we do this, it 5 is going to make R, and so therefore we should not.
6 It has never been that.
7 MR. BARBER: Okay.
8 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Thank you. I am 9 going to wrap it up here. Did you advise your 10 management that you were going to be meeting with us 11 today?
12 I didn't advise them.
13 I mentioned it to someone that, hey, I had a meeting, 14 and did you know anything about it. That's all.
15 And all that I was told was that other people have had 16 the meetings. I think, was another 17 person that had a meeting.
18 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So just what I told 19 you that we would be talking to other people?
20 nwyes.
21 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Were you in any way 22 coached regarding your testimony tonight?
23 " M iUWWS*j No, not at all.
24 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Have I or any 25 other NRC representative offered you any promise of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 reward or threatened you in any manner in exchange for 2 your information tonight?
3 No, not at all.
4 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. And again we 5 covered earlier that you appeared here voluntarily?
6 Correct.
7 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Do you have anything 8 else that you would like to add at this point?
9 ~ No.
10 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Scott, are you 11 finished?
12 MR. BARBER: Yes, I'm done.
13 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. I would like 14 to thank you for your time. We appreciate it. Thanks 15 for meeting with us.,
16 Okay. No problem.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: It is about 6:20 18 p.m., and we are just briefly wrapping up, and you 19 made a point about there being some union management.
20 c Yes, I think there is 21 some unit management issues, and I think there is some 22 emotions that get involved, and I think that issue 23 creates the lack of communication, and it creates 24 animosity, and there is definitely a feeling from some 25 people in the union -- and some people, and not all --
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1 that we purposely disregard their issues or whatever 2 just for production purposes, and that's not true.
3 We listen to everything that they tell us, 4 and I know for a fact that I listen to everything that 5 is told them, and I don't know of anybody that is in 6 my immediate management that has ever said that we are 7 not -- that's bull, and we are not going to look at 8 that issue, okay? I don't.
9 Now, if a guy is complaining about his 10 work hours, or he is complaining because we swapped 11 him shifts or we are complaining about a meal that he 12 didn't get, or something like that, then yeah, we are 13 going to say that guy is whining or complaining.
14 You know, there are other places where 15 they don't get meals, and there is other places that 16 don't get paid this much, you know.
17 MR. BARBER: Well, what would you say 18 though to the home team NEOs that we have interviewed 19 that say, hey, we document issues, and we put them in 20 the corrective action process, and we write 21 notifications, and we send them up to management, and 22 we get told the stuff will be fixed, and it is not 23 fixed, and we are told that we are working on it.
24 But yet in their view, they would say no.
25 It is just that they are trying to make us go away.
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1 They are telling us a story to make us go away and to 2 have us stop bugging them to stop raising issues.
3 Well, we sit in mid-4 shift briefs, we have, and the EOs will be in the 5 room, and we will say, hey, we want this piece of 6 equipment fixed, you know, and this is what we want 7 them to do, we want them to fix this, and we are going a to hold them to fix this.
9 And maintenance will do their best, or it 10 will come down to a part, or it will come down to, 11 hey, you need to wait until this outage, because it is 12 going to take a little bit longer, and then we will 13 accommodate that.
14 We will say, okay, the piece of equipment 15 is hardy, and it will make it until its next window, 16 and it does not affect safety, and it is not 17 significant in any way to tech specs, but this is what 18 we ares going to do, okay?
19 And sometimes they don't feel our 20 frustration, and we are just as frustrated at times 21 with them. Repeat work, you know, and you see that we 22 do a lot of repeat work at this plant. We are just as 23 frustrated as those guys are on repeat work.
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1 or when they replace valves, and it comes back and the 2 system leaks. That is the example.
3 And if we say, hey, we tag out this TAC 4 heat exchanger, and a Secondary cooling system, and we 5 allow them to go in and clean it, and when we bring it 6 back the end belt may leak a little bit. We say, hey, 7 we need the heat exchanger back, you know.
a I would rather have two heat exchangers go 9 to the next window, and then replace the leak, than 10 take it back out now because I want that heat 11 exchanger back. It gives me a better margin of us 12 being successful.
13 MR. BARBER: And what would the 14 maintenance side to that be? And would they say they 15 are doing the best that they can, or that -- I mean, 16 you are pointing a finger and saying it is 17 maintenance, and --
18 I am not pointing a 19 finger at maintenance. They are no doubt struggling 20 with supervision, with what they have with equipment.
21 I mean, they need help. They don't have a lot of 22 experience, operational experience right now, and I 23 think that they are struggling with the experience 24 level in their supervision right now. No doubt.
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1 they are at with their union management relationship, 2 I think they are struggling there also. We know that 3 their schedule compliance is not good, and whether 4 they plan their work well enough, and whether their 5 resources are not what they say they are based on 6 illnesses or disabilities, or whatever it is. There 7 is definitely a delta between what we want and what we 8 always get.
9 Now, they do some good work, and they do 10 good work also, and they are all sealed windows, and 11 when they need to get something fixed, they go into 12 it, and they do the best that they can, and pretty 13 much they bring it back the way that we want it back.
14 And we can always say no, and we are not 15 going to accept it and force them to do something 16 different. Well, station air compressor. The number 17 one station air compressor has been tagged for 18 probably over a month now, and first they got into it 19 for this maintenance window, and then the calibration 20 went awry, and they had to get a part, and they got a 21 part and it was the wrong part.
22 They put the part in, *and there was 23 another issue bringing it back, and that is the kind 24 of stuff that we deal with.
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- °
1 those problems? I mean, those sound like either 2 maintenance, or procurement, or whatever, but --
3 Exactly.
4 MR. BARBER: -- where is the 5 accountability? Maybe the NEOs come to you and say, 6 hey, this thing is not working very well, and you are 7 going, yeah, you're right, and I acknowledge it. We 8 will try and get maintenance to fix it. And 9 maintenance comes back and tells you what?
10 ii/T That I don't have the 11 resources or I can't do it right now, or we don't have 12 the money, you know. If we tell them that it 13 absolutely has to happen, then it will happen.
14 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: So they can 15 prioritize, but then something else is going to slip?
16 Correct.
17 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: And they can address 18 it immediately if you have that kind of need?
19 I Correct. I mean, the 20 equipment operators want it ideal to. They want 21 everything fixed a hundred percent. They are no 22 different than us. They just have the luxury -- and 23 they can be more vocal or they can say that they don't 24 have to accept it, all right?
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1 to accept that from you. They can always say no. But 2 then again us as the management of the plant, we make 3 the decision to bring the equipment back, or bring the 4 system back, or bring the component back.
5 They can't say, no, we are not going to 6 release that piece of equipment. They can, and we can 7 say, okay, that's fine. You are not going to release 8 it and you refuse to. Okay. I am asking you to do 9 it, or I can ask somebody else, or they can greet it, 10 or they can take it up to concerns, or whatever they 11 need to do.
12 And I don't know of anything that has ever 13 come to that, you know. We have never said that you 14 are going to release that piece of equipment no matter 15 what.
16 That has never come to that. It is always 17 that I see your point, and I will release it, but I 18 think it could have been better. And that is their 19 frustration level, and we share it with them.
20 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Okay. Anything else?
21 MR. BARBER: No.
22 SPECIAL AGENT NEFF: Thanks again.
23 (Whereupon, the interview was concluded.)
24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com
CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
Name of Proceeding: Interview of '-- '
Nam Docket Number: 1-2003-051F Location: Salem, New Jersey were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings as recorded on tape(s) provided by the NRC.
'Paul Intravia Official Transcriber Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 w*w.nealrgross.com