ML052270071
| ML052270071 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Millstone  |
| Issue date: | 04/17/2005 |
| From: | NRC Region 1 |
| To: | |
| References | |
| 41607, FOIA/PA-2005-0207, NRC-372 | |
| Download: ML052270071 (32) | |
Text
5-Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
Telephone Conversations at NRC Headquarters during
- V4 the Millstone Alert Declaration on April 17, 2005 CI~
.r oc Event Number: 41607 Location: (telephone conference)
Tape: RST LINE 95, 14:38 -15:10 Work Order No.: NRC-372 Pages 1-30 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Trauscribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
1 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
4 HEADQUARTERS OPERATIONS CENTER 5
6 TELEPHONE CONVERSATION(S) 7 RE MILLSTONE ALERT DECLARATION 8 OF APRIL 17, 2005 9
10 EVENT NO. 41607 11 RST Line 95 (5012) 14:38-15:10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
2 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 MR. McGINTY: Tim McGinty and Corney Holden.
3 4 (Pause.)
5 MR. PARTICIPANT: (Unintelligible).
6 MR. PARTICIPANT: That was for (inaudible) 7 specific. I might be able to (inaudible).
8 MR. PARTICIPANT: Otherwise just 9 (unintelligible).
10 MR. PARTICIPANT: This is a statement 11 (unintelligible) for a generic.
12 MR. PARTICIPANT: Hi, Carl?
13 MR. PARTICIPANT: (Unintelligible).
14 MR. PARTICIPANT: Gentlemen?
15 MR. PARTICIPANT: Hi Carl, this is Cornev 16 and--
17 MR. PARTICIPANT: Tim McGinty also here.
18 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay. The region is 19 asking the question. And we're going to get an ET 20 expert on it as well. What we're trying to figure out 21 is do they have six hours or 12 hours1.388889e-4 days <br />0.00333 hours <br />1.984127e-5 weeks <br />4.566e-6 months <br />?
22 MR. PARTICIPANT: The clock -- for any 23 completion time of an action starts at time of 24 discovery.
25 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay. And so --
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
3 1 MR. PARTICIPANT: If they get new 2 information. Then that could impact whether they 3 could exit and then maybe reenter even. It's time of 4 discovery.
5 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay. So, the time of 6 discovery in this case, they were in hot standby.
7 MR. PARTICIPANT: Because they tripped.
8 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes.
9 MR. PARTICIPANT: And so, the region's 10 really saying okay, they don't get that six hours.
11 They only have six hours left.
12 MR. PARTICIPANT: I'm thinking.
13 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes.
14 MR. PARTICIPANT: I know the answer to this 15 one.
16 MR. PARTICIPANT: I'll wait.
17 MR. PARTICIPANT: In fact, it's documented 18 some place. So, time of discovery they were in hot 19 shutdown and they needed to get to hot standby.
20 MR. PARTICIPANT: Greg Casto up momentarily.
21 MR. PARTICIPANT: Thank you.
22 MR. PARTICIPANT: Greg Casto from the EP 23 group. And we're bringing him in because of his EAL 24 expertise.
25 MR. CASTO: Hello, Greg Casto, NRC.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
4 1 MR. PARTICIPANT: Hello Greg, this is Corney 2 Holden and Tim McGinty. We're in the ops (ph) center, 3 and Carl Shulten from NRR, the tech spec group that's 4 on the line.
5 MR. CASTO:
6 MR. HOLDEN: We'll bring you up to speed 7 quickly. Millstone 3 had a trip this morning. And 8 that put them in an alert. They had a low -- we're 9 not really quite sure if a steam generator safety 10 opened and caused the low steamline pressure, which 11 gave them a trip, and MSIV closure and a safety 12 injection.
13 The safety injection pretty much took them 14 solid. So they lifted primary safeties that they 15 regained pressurizer level and they're starting their 16 cooldown.
17 They're about ready to start that. But 18 they're in an alert because for 15 or 20 minutes the 19 steam generator safeties were opening and closing.
20 And so, they looked at that and said, one or more 21 safeties not resetting, there in an alert.
22 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay. They were opening 23 and closing on pressure though, right?
24 MR. PARTICIPANT: More than likely, yes.
25 There's a whole lot of questions about -- at that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 2344433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
5 1 point right now. Because it appears at least one of 2 them opened at 40 pounds below the set (ph) point.
3 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
4 MR. PARTICIPANT: But they, you know, 5 they're just really starting their investigation.
6 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
7 MR. PARTICIPANT: And it is their intent to 8 go to cold shutdown.
9 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
10 MR. PARTICIPANT: Now, within the tech 11 specs, there's a spec on safeties. And basically it 12 says if you find one or more inoperable, you have four 13 hours1.50463e-4 days <br />0.00361 hours <br />2.149471e-5 weeks <br />4.9465e-6 months <br /> to restore it or reduce some set points, reduce 14 your power level.
15 Otherwise, be in hot standby within six 16 hours1.851852e-4 days <br />0.00444 hours <br />2.645503e-5 weeks <br />6.088e-6 months <br /> and hot shutdown within the next six.
17 MR. PARTICIPANT: Right.
18 MR. PARTICIPANT: And, the only difference 19 there is the temperature.
20 MR. PARTICIPANT: Got it.
21 MR. PARTICIPANT: The question that the 22 region has posed is that the plant is now in an alert.
23 And, when they're ready, they're going to come out of 24 an alert.
25 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
6 1 MR. PARTICIPANT: Do they have 12 hours1.388889e-4 days <br />0.00333 hours <br />1.984127e-5 weeks <br />4.566e-6 months <br /> from 2 this event to be in hot shutdown? Because I think an 3 unusual event EAL says that if you can't meet a tech 4 spec action statement, then you enter an unusual 5 event.
6 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
7 MR. PARTICIPANT: So, from the region 8 standpoint, they're trying to determine if they go 9 from an alert to an unusual event, or something less 10 than that.
11 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay. A little difficult 12 not seeing their EALs. First off, their emergency 13 event classification is not and should not necessarily 14 be tied to their tech spec per say.
15 In other words, if they don't meet a tech 16 spec LCO, some EALs that doesn't apply as far as event 17 declaration. It may at Millstone, it may not.
18 But, typically it's only an unusual event 19 classification. They are already in an alert. So, 20 they're justification for terminating the alert should 21 be based on their plant conditions.
22 And what they shouldn't end up doing -- and 23 they're going to need to look at their EALs and make 24 sure of this. But, they should not exit their alert 25 classification, say, in an hour and find themselves in NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
7 1 a situation where they haven't met an LCO and, by the 2 way, their EALs are written, brings them back up to an 3 unusual event.
4 Do you understand what I'm saying? Does 5 that make any sense at all?
6 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes. I think they're 7 aware of the tech spec.
8 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
9 MR. PARTICIPANT: And I think they're just -
10 - I think the plant would say they're not in an 11 unusual event because they have a combined timeframe 12 of 12 hours1.388889e-4 days <br />0.00333 hours <br />1.984127e-5 weeks <br />4.566e-6 months <br /> to meet this spec.
13 MR. PARTICIPANT: Right.
14 MR. PARTICIPANT: The region is looking at 15 it and saying, well, you had the event. And that puts 16 you in hot standby. So now you need to be in -- you 17 only have six hours left to go to hot shutdown.
18 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes. See, that's a 19 licensing text spec question as opposed to an EAL 20 question.
21 MR. SCHULTEN: This is Carl Schulten, and I 22 agree.
23 MR. PARTICIPANT: And, let's see. I'm 24 trying to think back to my tech spec reading days 25 here.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202)
. . 234.4433
8 1 MR. SCHULTEN: My memory serves me that at 2 the time of discovery they have to begin to comply 3 with their tech spec. They have four hours you told 4 us to reestablish the set points.
5 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes.
6 MR. PARTICIPANT: Or enter the shutdown 7 requirement. And so the clock started at time of 8 discovery. At the end of four plus six, plus six, 9 they've got to be in hot standby.
10 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay. So, at the end of 11 16.
12 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes, that's my memory.
13 And that may even be explained in the bases for NUREG 14 1431, the bases for 3.0.3. Unfortunately, I do not 15 have those standards here.
16 MR. PARTICIPANT: Right. Now, do you have -
17 - do you guys have access to their tech spec there at 18 headquarters?
19 MR. HOLDEN: I went over to the other 20 building and looked at them.
21 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
22 MR. PARTICIPANT: They're an old standard 23 plant though.
24 MR. PARTICIPANT: They have standard tech 25 spec?
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
9 1 MR. PARTICIPANT: The old standard, 1451.
2 Anyway, it's the old one.
3 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes.
4 MR. PARTICIPANT: Not 1431.
5 MR. PARTICIPANT: Right. Okay. Let's see, 6 do we have the region on the line too?
7 MR. PARTICIPANT: No, they're on the other 8 line. We stepped over to the RSC (ph) though.
9 MR. PARTICIPANT: We can try them.
10 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay. Now, usually the 11 region has a more current version of the tech spec, I 12 think.
13 MR. PARTICIPANT: Corney, they do have the 14 old tech spec, right? 3/4/7.1?
15 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes.
16 MR. PARTICIPANT: There's no description in 17 those text specs that explains usage for entering a 18 shutdown track (ph) or even LC 3.0.3.
19 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay. I believe the 20 completion times or the usage portion of the 1431 21 NUREG either the NUREG itself or the bases does have 22 a write-up on that.
23 MR. PARTICIPANT: It explains the logic.
24 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes.
25 MR. PARTICIPANT: Now, I have -- making a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
10 1 decision. But, I thought discovery is the moment that 2 you enter -- that you start clock in the text spec.
3 And you have -- yes, okay.
4 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yeah, coming back.
5 MR. PARTICIPANT: If you're a licensee, 6 you're doing a controlled shutdown, then here's the 7 analogy. Let's say it's a 303 equivalent, you would 8 have an hour to initiate action to start it.
9 And you would have a whole period to get 10 down to hot shutdown. If you decided to wait to the 11 last minute and punch it out, so be it.
12 MR. PARTICIPANT: Right.
13 MR. PARTICIPANT: They don't control you.
14 MR. PARTICIPANT: Correct.
15 MR. PARTICIPANT: We give you times to get 16 to certain places. So, if they get to hot shutdown 17 early, they've got the remainder of the time to get to 18 hot standby.
19 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes, that sounds right.
20 MR. PARTICIPANT: And that was in a tech 21 spec interpretation, part of a newsletter article that 22 I wrote.
23 MR. PARTICIPANT: That does sound right.
24 MR. PARTICIPANT: That's why I should have 25 remembered it.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
11 1 MR. PARTICIPANT: Tim went to get someone 2 from the region in their incident center to tie in on 3 this line.
4 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
5 MR. PARTICIPANT: And then we'll have a 6 discussion with them. And, if necessary, they'll put 7 us through to the whole bridge. But I don't see that 8 right now.
9 MR. PARTICIPANT: So, the inspection 10 newsletter in the fall of last year. And we called it 11 myth busters, a catchy title.
12 MR. PARTICIPANT: Now, what was the times as 13 far as their event declaration? Do you have the 14 chronology there?
15 MR. PARTICIPANT: The events started, I 16 think, at 8:29 this morning.
17 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay. That's when they 18 declared the alert or --
19 MR. PARTICIPANT: That's when I think they 20 tripped. They called us some short period of time 21 after that.
22 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay. So you don't have 23 the time they declared the alert. But they're still 24 in an alert right now?
25 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
12 1 MR. RIPLEY: This is headquarters operations 2 officer. I have a chronology that the region sent 3 down. I can read it to you.
4 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
5 MR. PARTICIPANT: At 8:29 they had the 6 reactor trip in the SI. At 8:42 they declared an 7 alert due to main steam safety relief valve lift on 8 the Bravo steam generator.
9 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
10 MR. PARTICIPANT: NRC entered monitoring at 11 9:53. What else do you need?
12 MR. PARTICIPANT: That's good.
13 MR. PARTICIPANT: And they're still in alert 14 right now?
15 MR. PARTICIPANT: That is correct.
16 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay. But they are in 17 mode three. Are they continuing to reduce pressure?
18 MR. RIPLEY: That is correct. They are 19 slowly cooling down. I'm not sure what the exit 20 criteria is. At one point they said the exit criteria 21 was containment pressure. The chillers tripped and --
22 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes, that's right. The 23 chillers tripped and containment pressure was slightly 24 above normal, about half a pound.
25 MR. PARTICIPANT: They talked about reducing NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005.3701 (202) 234-4433
13 1 it below 13 pounds, I believe.
2 MR. PARTICIPANT: Right.
3 MR. PARTICIPANT: And according to ERDS 4 still in the neighborhood of 14, 13.5.
5 MR. PARTICIPANT: So, what was the pressure 6 in containment?
7 MR. PARTICIPANT: Well, the containment 8 coolers tripped on the safety injection. And so, over 9 several hours, containment pressure built up.
10 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay. And the max 11 pressure they had was about 13, 14 pounds?
12 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes, it was like, I think, 13 14 and a half is what I heard.
14 MR. PARTICIPANT: So this was unit three, 15 right?
16 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes.
17 MR. PARTICIPANT: Which is the Westinghouse 18 19 MR. PARTICIPANT: Westinghouse unit, right.
20 MR. PARTICIPANT: Is region one on the line?
21 MR. PARTICIPANT: I guess Tim's still 22 working on it.
23 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
24 MR. PARTICIPANT: I would expect them to get 25 containment pressure down before they terminate. In NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
14 1 fact, I'm trying to think. Did anyone ask what their 2 pressure criteria was for site area emergency or any 3 other criteria they had as far as their escalating 4 EALs?
5 Because that containment pressure is kind of 6 high.
7 MR. PARTICIPANT: I can't answer that.
8 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
9 MR. PARTICIPANT: I'm not sure.
10 MR. PARTICIPANT: That might be something 11 worth asking. If they looked ahead, for instance, 12 from where they are now to possible problems and a 13 degraded condition, what would be their trigger to 14 escalate.
15 And if they, as part of considering either 16 terminating or declassifying their emergency class, 17 what potential escalation triggers they've addressed 18 to make sure they're not likely to regress and hit one 19 of those triggers as they continue to shut down.
20 Because the containment pressure thing is 21 one. And that kind of stands out. It's pretty high 22 pressure.
23 MR. PARTICIPANT: I think that normal 24 pressure is like 13. But they were up a pound and a 25 half at 14 and a half.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 2344433
15 1 MR. PARTICIPANT: Oh.
2 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes, well --
3 MR. PARTICIPANT: Pressure in containment is 4 13 pounds?
5 MR. PARTICIPANT: I believe that's what they 6 said, yes.
7 MR. PARTICIPANT: Maybe it was the normal 8 max.
9 MR. PARTICIPANT: We might be talking gauge 10 (ph) versus absolutely.
11 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes. I would go back and 12 ask that. I know negative pressure is --
13 MR. PARTICIPANT: Right now they're at 14.3 14 PSIA (ph), according to Hertz (ph).
15 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
16 MR. PARTICIPANT: I think he's trying to get 17 someone from region one on this line. So, whenever --
18 19 MR. PARTICIPANT: I'm trying to think. I 20 wonder if they're reading normal atmospheric pressure.
21 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes.
22 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes. Which, normal 23 atmospheric pressure is --
24 MR. PARTICIPANT: Like 14.
25 MR. PARTICIPANT: Fourteen point seven.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
16 1 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay. Now that -- now 2 that -- okay. Yes, that would be a good question just 3 to clear up. That's not 14 pounds in addition to what 4 their normal operating pressure is.
5 MR. PARTICIPANT: I don't think they can 6 survive that.
7 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes, I mean, that's high.
8 That's the way I was thinking about it.
9 MR. PARTICIPANT: Paul Crone (ph) is 10 (inaudible) containment design there.
11 MR. PARTICIPANT: Right.
12 MR. PARTICIPANT: Atmospheric, I do not 13 know.
14 MR. PARTICIPANT: I do not know. Typically 15 they're atmospheric or they're sub-atmospheric.
16 MR. PARTICIPANT: Right.
17 MR. PARTICIPANT: Paul Crone (ph) from 18 region one is supposed to be dialing in here from the 19 _-
20 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay. I do not know if 21 there's a real good connection between the emergency, 22 the EOPs and the tech spec compliance issue.
23 I do not know if tech spec -- not compliant 24 with the tech spec would drive you to a different EOP 25 (ph).
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
17 1 MR. PARTICIPANT: It shouldn't.
2 MR. PARTICIPANT: It should not?
3 MR. PARTICIPANT: It should not.
4 MR. PARTICIPANT: You're going to have to 5 comply with your tech spec and take it lumps (ph).
6 MR. PARTICIPANT: Right.
7 MR. PARTICIPANT: That's sort of what I 8 thought.
9 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes.
12 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes, and EALs are 13 typically separate from your text specs.
14 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes.
15 MR. PARTICIPANT: There are some old EALs, 16 they might be NUREG 0654 EALs in which a long time 17 back there were some tech spec driven unusual events 18 which most plants got rid of.
19 We gave them the opportunity to fix those 20 back in the -- good grief -- early to mid 80's.
21 MR. PARTICIPANT: But that would be an EAL 22 referencing a tech spec, not the other way around.
23 Because I've never seen an EAL in the tech spec.
24 MR. PARTICIPANT: Correct. You're 25 absolutely right. I don't understand why people are NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
18 1 concerned about whether or not it's an emergency and 2 then going to an unusual event. So, there's no --
3 MR. PARTICIPANT: There's no --
4 MR. PARTICIPANT: -- no discussion about the 5 fact that they only get channel A (ph) trips. And 6 yet, if they've got the scram.
7 MR. PARTICIPANT: (Unintelligible).
8 MR. PARTICIPANT: That's more safety related 9 than --
10 MR. PARTICIPANT: Well yes, they've got 11 that. They've got the terry turbine trip when it was 12 called on, but they had aux feedwater that they had 13 another packing leak to deal with as well on the 14 charging system.
15 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes. Now, some equipment 16 availability issues could drive them into EALs. But 17 it sound like certainly their lifting safeties is what 18 got them here.
19 MR. PARTICIPANT: Right.
20 MR. PARTICIPANT: That makes sense. And the 21 fact that they're now reducing in temperature and 22 pressure will just further insulate them from getting 23 back into an escalated classification.
24 MR. PARTICIPANT: But not -- so the scram 25 (ph) occurred only on two channel A signals coming in?
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234.4433
19 1 There's an interesting proposal by Westinghouse owners 2 group right now to -- they would like tech specs that 3 would allow them to go into a condition where they 4 would not -- where they would lose redundancy, where 5 it would not meet single failure for a function.
6 It would go down to two out of two. And I'd 7 be interested in hearing some details when they are 8 available.
9 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes.
10 MR. PARTICIPANT: Because nobody in the 11 staff is anxious.
12 MR. PARTICIPANT: Has the region discussed 13 sending an inspection team up there? Or is it too 14 early for that?
15 MR. PARTICIPANT: It's probably too early 16 for that. They're still in the monitoring mode with 17 the licensee in an alert.
18 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
19 MR. PARTICIPANT: I know they're thinking of 20 what relief they might meet in just for their 21 emergency organization, and then what type of 22 (inaudible) what the site's going to need.
23 MR. PARTICIPANT: Right. Now, the site did 24 staff up, correct?
25 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes, they did.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
20 1 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay, the residents, did 2 they go to the --
3 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes, (unintelligible).
4 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
5 MR. PARTICIPANT: And we got confirmation 6 that state and locals were notified.
7 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes. I think there's been 8 one and possibly two press releases right now.
9 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
10 MR. PARTICIPANT: I know the NRC is looking 11 at putting out one. And there was a TA brief at one 12 o'clock.
13 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay. Bill's talking 14 about the licensee, making sure they notified state 15 and locals.
16 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes. Again, I've only 17 heard it via region one. And think that their state 18 contact has been in touch with the state as well.
19 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
20 MR. PARTICIPANT: I'm quite sure the 21 licensee made their notification.
22 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay. And we'll go back 23 and look at timing when we investigate that I'm sure.
24 MR. PARTICIPANT: I hate to have you guys 25 hold on over there.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
21 1 MR. PARTICIPANT: Can you hear me?
2 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes, I hear you.
3 MR. PARTICIPANT: I'm going to go on mute, 4 so (inaudible) fine.
5 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
6 MR. PARTICIPANT: Paul Krohn is coming on 7 now, I understand.
8 (Pause.)
9 MR. PARTICIPANT: Region one is on, Paul 10 Krohn and Scott Barber.
11 MR. PARTICIPANT: All right.
12 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay. Paul, this is 13 Corney Holden. I've got Carl Schulten from the tech 14 spec group and Greg Casto from the EP group here in is headquarters.
16 We've been discussing the tech specs and EP, 17 EAL's. Let me kind of summarize. And then, Carl, if 18 you want to jump in or Greg. But I think that the way 19 we're looking at this, the time of discovery was the 20 plant trip.
21 And the tech specs say you have four hours 22 to reduce your set points or restore the set points 23 for the safety. Otherwise you go to hot standby 24 within six and the hot shutdown within the next six.
25 And I think that the way that the tech spec NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.
(202) 234.4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234.4433
22 1 group here would interpret that is there's a total of 2 16 hours1.851852e-4 days <br />0.00444 hours <br />2.645503e-5 weeks <br />6.088e-6 months <br /> there to be in hot shutdown.
3 MR. PARTICIPANT: From time of discovery of 4 failure to meet the set points when they discovered 5 that the set points were not set correctly.
6 MR. PARTICIPANT: And I think one of the 7 alternate views we're looking at here in the region is 8 what mode they start out at. In other words, SI 9 signal comes in, MSIVs go shut and the plant trips.
10 So, when the safety got challenged, they're 11 already in hot standby, i.e. the reactor shutdown, K-12 effective is less than .99, they're hotter than 350.
13 Should we say at the moment the safeties 14 were first challenged following the post-trip they 15 were in hot standby? Or do we stay it starts in mode 16 one, full power ops.
17 MR. PARTICIPANT: Well, what is the mode of 18 applicability for the spec?
19 MR. PARTICIPANT: It says one, two, three.
20 MR. PARTICIPANT: So, when did they identify 21 the fact that the code safeties were not within their 22 parameters?
23 MR. PARTICIPANT: Shortly after the trip, 24 but probably within a minute or two after the trip, 25 the plant was responding to the hard trip.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 2344433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
23 1 MR. PARTICIPANT: So, they were still in the 2 applicable mode?
3 MR. PARTICIPANT: That is correct.
4 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes, albeit mode three.
5 MR. PARTICIPANT: So, they're in mode three 6 and the clock starts. If the applicability was one 7 and two and they tripped obviously went to three, then 8 they would have exited the applicability and they 9 wouldn't be in the action statement (ph).
10 So, because mode three was part of the 11 applicability for these valves, they would have to 12 comply with the tech specs. So they would have four 13 hours to restore and then six and six to get down hot 14 standby.
15 MR. PARTICIPANT: Even if the event 16 manifests itself in hot standby in mode three.
17 MR. PARTICIPANT: I wrote a little article 18 for -- I think it was region one, inspector Paul (ph),
19 a newsletter that went out that was called Myth 20 Busters.
21 And there we talked about how do you comply 22 with a shutdown requirement. You can get to the end 23 of your time period and punch it out if you decide 24 that's where you want to operate your plant.
25 The time periods are allocated for NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
24 I controlled shut down, orderly but rapid manner, the 2 normal capability of a plant. But it's not a 3 violation to take it down quickly.
4 MR. PARTICIPANT: Paul, maybe you can help 5 clarify. I think I understood that the EAL in this 6 case says you're in an unusual event if you can't 7 comply with text spec action statement.
8 MR. PARTICIPANT: I do not have that in 9 front of me. Yes, I believe that's it.
10 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
11 MR. PARTICIPANT: That's if -- right. So 12 that would be if you get to the end of your clock and 13 you find you're not in the mode that you're supposed 14 to be in.
is And I believe it's an unusual event, 16 correct?
17 MR. PARTICIPANT: Correct, yes.
18 MR. PARTICIPANT: Then that would put you 19 into an unusual event.
20 MR. PARTICIPANT: I guess what would help us 21 here at this end, you know, I'll just try to go 22 through it. I think the formal position is then and 23 the time clocks that they have to meet.
24 The event started at 8:29 from full power, 25 mode one. So we're saying they had four hours to get NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
25 1 into hot standby, which would be mode three. All 2 right.
3 So that would be 12:29, 12:29 then to mode 4 three, the hot standby.
5 MR. PARTICIPANT: At 8:29 they knew that 6 they did not meet this code safety or the safety 7 valves were --
8 MR. PARTICIPANT: There or very shortly 9 thereafter. 8:29 was the time of the SI trip.
10 MR. PARTICIPANT: When did they know that 11 they did not meet their tech spec?
12 MR. PARTICIPANT: We're back dating (ph) it 13 to that time, Paul. They don't really identify. They 14 just said that's the time they believe that they had 15 the problem with the valve.
16 So they're being conservative and saying 17 that's the earliest known time.
18 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes. I mean, they lifted 19 at 8:29. Everything was happening fairly quickly.
20 And they recognized at 8:29 that some may have lifted 21 at a lower pressure than designed.
22 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
23 MR. PARTICIPANT: And even that's 24 suppositious. So, they're being conservative and 25 saying they're inoperable.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 2344433
26 1 MR. PARTICIPANT: I understand.
2 MR. PARTICIPANT: So, we were given the 3 first four hours to beat a mode three hot standby and 4 then another six to beat a hot shutdown.
5 MR. PARTICIPANT: We give them four hours to 6 restore.
7 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
8 MR. PARTICIPANT: And then six to hot 9 shutdown and six to hot standby.
10 MR. PARTICIPANT: I have those correct, 11 don't I?
12 MR. PARTICIPANT: Hot standby and hot 13 shutdown, yes.
14 MR. PARTICIPANT: First they get to standby 15 and then they get to shutdown?
16 MR. PARTICIPANT: Correct.
17 MR. PARTICIPANT: If our math is right, it 18 would be 12:29 would be, they'd have to restore or 19 restore by 12:29. We have to be in hot standby by 20 18:29.
21 But they're already there. They still have 22 until 0:29 to be in hot shutdown.
23 MR. PARTICIPANT: Correct.
24 MR. PARTICIPANT: And at the rate -- they're 25 cooling down at about 30 degrees an hour. They're at NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
27 1 about 480 right now or so. They should be making that 2 then to get less than 350 to get less than a hot 3 shutdown.
4 MR. PARTICIPANT: All right. That's the 5 help we needed. We just wanted to know if we had 6 another unusual event declaration coming. Because 7 we're still trying to craft the press releases.
8 MR. PARTICIPANT: Now listen, if they're 9 already in an alert, they should not follow-up and 10 declare an unusual event.
11 MR. PARTICIPANT: Even if it was under a 12 different EAL?
13 MR. PARTICIPANT: That is correct. That is 14 correct, they declare the highest level of event by 15 site, not individual levels, because that confuses the 16 offsite.
17 You've got the possibility that the offsite 18 would -- they're on alert now. If they went ahead and 19 declared an unusual event for a different situation, 20 you've got the possibility that offsites would think 21 they'd de-classified.
22 MR. PARTICIPANT: Now, in the --
23 MR. PARTICIPANT: The event is still in an 24 alert.
25 MR. PARTICIPANT: What if they exit the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005.3701 (202) 234.4433
28 1 alert within the next hour or so?
2 MR. PARTICIPANT: If they exit the alert and 3 then they find themselves in a condition that gets 4 them back into their EAL, then they need to declare 5 the EAL that is correct.
6 MR. PARTICIPANT: Right. I got it.
7 MR. PARTICIPANT: Could they use discretion 8 to stay in the alert?
9 MR. PARTICIPANT: They could.
10 MR. PARTICIPANT: Because they wouldn't be 11 sure if they could meet their cooldown timeframes.
12 MR. PARTICIPANT: They could do that. You can stay in an event class for any a number of reasons, if for nothing else just for maintaining awareness of the situation at the plant for the benefit of the offsite agencies.
That's completely up to them. And different plants do different things.
MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
MR. PARTICIPANT: I don't think we have anything else on the regional end. We just needed help making sure we understood the tech spec properly.
MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay.
MR. PARTICIPANT: Paul, if you need me the duty officer can reach me.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
. . 234-4433 (202) WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 . . 234-4433 (202)
29 1 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay. Thanks Corney, 2 thanks Carl.
3 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes, same for me too.
4 MR. McGINTY: Thank you Greg and Carl, 5 really appreciate your willingness to come on and help 6 us out.
7 MR. PARTICIPANT: No problem.
8 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes, we really do. I'll 9 relay this back to the managers here in the region.
10 MR. PARTICIPANT: Do you want me to give you 11 a number where I can be reached? I was going to go 12 out, but I'll have my cell phone with me.
13 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes, please, Car. -7 14 MR. PARTICIPANT: It's (phone number 15 redacted).
16 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay. And Paul and Scott, 17 are you guys both in the IRC?
18 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes, we are.
19 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay . Thanks Carl.
20 MR. PARTICIPANT: And, do you have my cell 21 phone?
22 MR. PARTICIPANT: Is t:his Greg Casto?
23 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes, it is.
24 MR. PARTICIPANT: Yes, could I please have 25 your cell phone, please?
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005.3701 (202) 234-4433
30 1 MR. PARTICIPANT: Sure, (phone number 2 redacted).
3 MR. McGINTY: Okay. All right. This is Tim 4 McGinty speaking on behalf of Corney Holden. Again, 5 we appreciate the support of Carl and Greg.
6 And we know how to get a hold of Paul and 7 Scott.
8 MR. PARTICIPANT: Okay, thank you.
9 MR. PARTICIPANT: Thank you.
10 MR. PARTICIPANT: Thank you.
11 MR. PARTICIPANT: See you guys.
12 MR. PARTICIPANT: Bye now.
13 MR. PARTICIPANT: Good bye.
14 MR. PARTICIPANT: (Inaudible).
15 MR. PARTICIPANT: (Unintelligible).
16 (Tape ends.)
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
CERTIFICATE This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission in the matter of:
Name of Proceeding: Telephone Conversation at NRC Headquarters during the Millstone Alert Declaration On April 17, 2005 Event Number: 41607 Location: teleconference were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission taken by me and, thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under the direction of the court reporting company, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing proceedings as recorded on tape(s) provided by the NRC.
Christina Willis Official Transcriber Neal R. Gross & Co., Inc.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com