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i 1
i l
l I          l UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
1 I
                                                                            . NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3           i.
l UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2
* d TEXAS UTILITIES GENERATING                           I COMPANY, et al.                                     I 5
. NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
I     Docket Nos. 50-445 (Comanche Peak Steam Electric I                                         50-446 6                     Station, Units l~and 2)                         !
i.
7             l 8             f                                                      QA Meeting Room 9
d TEXAS UTILITIES GENERATING I
                                                                                                    ' Administration Building Comanche Peak Steam Electric Station 10             ,
COMPANY, et al.
t Glen Rose, Texas 11             l Thursday, October 18, 1984 12 INVESTIGATIVE DEPOSITION OF' 13                                                                                       -
I 5
I 14             l PRESENT:                                 .
I Docket Nos. 50-445 (Comanche Peak Steam Electric I 50-446 6
15           ,
Station, Units l~and 2) 7 l
On Behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission:
f 8
16 j                                           H. BROOKS GRIFFIN, Investigator U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 17                                             Region IV 611 Ryan Plaza Drive, Suite 1000 18                                               Arlington, Texas                 76011             .
QA Meeting Room
                                                                      ~
' Administration Building 9
19 l                                   On Behalf off J.'
Comanche Peak Steam Electric Station 10 t
Glen Rose, Texas l
11 Thursday, October 18, 1984 12 INVESTIGATIVE DEPOSITION OF' 13 I
14 l PRESENT:
15 On Behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission:
16 j H. BROOKS GRIFFIN, Investigator U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 17 Region IV 611 Ryan Plaza Drive, Suite 1000 18 Arlington, Texas 76011
~
19 l On Behalf off J.'
i
i
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22 I 23 24                             8707020266 870625 PDR FDIA
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I 2
I 2
                      \,
\\,
I i                                       PROCEEDINGS 2   ,
I i PROCEEDINGS 2
9:13 a.m.
9:13 a.m.
I 3                                   MR. GRIFFIN:     For the record,.this'is an inter-d           view of                                                 Is that. correct?
I 3
MR. GRIFFIN:
For the record,.this'is an inter-d view of Is that. correct?
w 5
w 5
                                                                    ] Correct.
] Correct.
6                                  MR. GRIFFIN:    Who is employed by[1                                     ,
Who is employed by[1 6
7- l                   1 B
MR. GRIFFIN:
7-l 1
That's correct.
That's correct.
9     l MR. GRIFFIN:     The location of this interview 10             is the Comanche Peak Steam Electric Station, and the date 11             is I -
B 9
12                                    Presentatthisintervieware{                                         }and 13 This interview is being transcribed by a court 14 15 reporter, and also, I am H. Brooks Griffin, representing 16              the NRC in this interview.
l MR. GRIFFIN:
17
The location of this interview 10 is the Comanche Peak Steam Electric Station, and the date 11 is I Presentatthisintervieware{
                          '                                  'if you will please rise, I need to 18            swear you to the contents of your testimony.,
}and 12 13 This interview is being transcribed by a court 14 15 reporter, and also, I am H. Brooks Griffin, representing the NRC in this interview.
                                                                  ...~.....
16
                                                                              ..  .,    -o.   ..-    .      ,
'if you will please rise, I need to 17 swear you to the contents of your testimony.,
19             Whereupon,"                                   ,
18
... ~....
-o.
19 Whereupon,"
yn
yn
                                                                                    }...                 ,
}...
(
(
21 having first 'een r    duly sworn to tell the truth, the S/ hole                                 j i
having first 'een duly sworn to tell the truth, the S/ hole j
22        ;
r 21 i
truth and nothing b'it the truth, was examined and testified                                       f J
truth and nothing b'it the truth, was examined and testified f
23         !    on his oath as follows:                                                             .
22 J
i
23 on his oath as follows:
                  ;a          !                        MR. GRIFFIN:     Before we start with the reasons 25 why we are here to talk today, I would like to ask you a
i MR. GRIFFIN:
Before we start with the reasons
;a why we are here to talk today, I would like to ask you a 25


3 1       few questions about                                 representation of you here.
3 1
                                                                                                      ~
few questions about representation of you here.
2                                           EXAMIbATION                                .
~
EXAMIbATION 2
1-
1-
              '3       BY MR. GRIFFIN:
'3 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
4                   Q       I will tell you at the outset that under the                           i 5       NRC's policies, we observe the f act, or we operate under 6        a policy that anybody we interview is entitled to a repre-7       sentative.
4 Q
8                   A       That's correct.
I will tell you at the outset that under the i
That can be anybody.             It can be somebody you 9                    D' 10       work with.       It can be your mother; it can be legal. counsel; 11 it can be anybody you care.
5 NRC's policies, we observe the f act, or we operate under a policy that anybody we interview is entitled to a repre-6 7
sentative.
8 A
That's correct.
9 D'
That can be anybody.
It can be somebody you 10 work with.
It can be your mother; it can be legal. counsel; 11 it can be anybody you care.
1.
1.
12 In this instance, I presume that you'have.
In this instance, I presume that you'have.
33        chosen'                   ;}isthatcorrect?
12 chosen'
14 A         Yes,     will be my personal representative.
;}isthatcorrect?
15 MR. GRIFFIN: 1                     ]a I would like to direct a few questions to you.                   You are representing 16 17                          a s (. personal representative for the purposes-18 of this interview?                                                 '
33 A
* Yes, I am.
: Yes, will be my personal representative.
39                                                           '
14
                                                +00. GRIFFIN:     Do you represent any other part'ies 2'O -
] I would like to MR. GRIFFIN: 1 15 a
direct a few questions to you.
You are representing 16 a s (. personal representative for the purposes-17 of this interview?
18 Yes, I am.
39
+00.
GRIFFIN:
Do you represent any other part'ies 2'O -
to the' Comanche Peak hearings?
to the' Comanche Peak hearings?
21                                                                                                   I is not a party to 22                                                                                                   J the Comanche Peak hearings.
21
23                                                                                             .
, is not a party to 22 J
MR. GRIFFIN:     I know, but he works for a company 24 25 that is.
the Comanche Peak hearings.
      ~.
23 MR. GRIFFIN:
I know, but he works for a company 24 that is.
25
~.
t I..
t
t
                                            -                                        I.. t


s
,+ g 7 3 -.. -
,+ g 7 3 - .. -                         ,
s 4
4 1                                     ,
1 Ebasco is not a party to the 2
Ebasco is not a party to the 2       hearings, either.
hearings, either.
3                         I have told'                     ]andasyou'know, 4       Mr. Griffin,F v
3 I have told'
3        r      -
]andasyou'know, 4
                                                                  ] I have informed]                                       ]
Mr. Griffin,Fv
6-      of that representation.
]
7 As you also know,'u __           .        _ _.
I have informed]
]
3 r
of that representation.
6-As you also know,'
7 u __
8 9
8 9
10                    ,
Andasyoualsoknow,{
Andasyoualsoknow,{
11 l
10 11 l
                ~12
.)
                                                                                          .)
~12 I have explained all this to
  ~~~ -~'~
~~~ -~'~
I have explained all this to 13 I have apprisedl,     that it is conceivable that a potential jg 15 16 I have told..         that if I perceive that any
13 jg I have apprisedl, that it is conceivable that a potential 15 16 I have told..
                  )7                                         g   -
that if I perceive that any
18 p ssibility of that exists or even the appearance of that         ,
)7 g
p ssibility of that exists or even the appearance of that l
18
.. ~.
exists, I*will immediately cause this interview to be
),
terminated.. I will explain the situation-tof]
2'O l
and that I will abide by whatever wishes ( 1 has concerning 21 my continued representation of,
22 l
l
l
                                                          . . ~.  ..  ..  .        ...        . . .        .
, I greatly appreciate MR. GRIFFIN:
                  ),
23 I
exists, I*will immediately cause this interview to be 2'O
the fact that you are aware of the Commission's needs in 24 l
                      -. terminated.. I will explain the situation-tof]                                            ,
exploring these relationships and your understanding of the 25
l' and that I will abide by whatever wishes ( 1 has concerning  ,
21 22 my continued representation of ,
l 23      l MR. GRIFFIN:                       , I greatly appreciate the fact that you are aware of the Commission's needs in I
24     l 25 exploring these relationships and your understanding of the


5 1     propriotary interests of the Commission in making sure that 2                   ..is properly represented and that                       -
5 1
has an under-j_                                                                   -
propriotary interests of the Commission in making sure that 2
3     standing of your other commitments.                                         M.
..is properly represented and that
4     BY MR. GRIFFIN:                                                           .
- has an under-j_
1 5             @        g      7                                                                               q 6
3 standing of your other commitments.
A         Tes, sir.
M.
7             0         Wouldyoutellmewhat{                     }standsfor?
4 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
8 A          Itstandsfor(,                 .
1 5
                                                                              },.     That's 9                       *J 10              0          DoyoumindifIcallyou{'                             '}
7 q
11 A         No, sir, not at all.
g A
12 0         Thank you.                                                                 _
Tes, sir.
13 Could you tell me how you are employed, presently                   ,
6 7
14 employed?
0 Wouldyoutellmewhat{
A         I am presently --       You mean my specific?
}standsfor?
15 16 0         Your title.
Itstandsfor(,
A         My title?   I am a 37 18 0
},.
* How long have you been employed at Comanche 39 peak? -
That's 8
            ,.g.                                  . --                          .s _.   .       .,.
A 9
A         Approximate 1y'                     .a 21                                           _
*J DoyoumindifIcallyou{'
g                G          When you began your employment here, in what Capacity was your employment?
'}
I A.         Originally?
10 0
24   j 4
A No, sir, not at all.
0          Yes.
11 0
Thank you.
12 Could you tell me how you are employed, presently 13 14 employed?
A I am presently --
You mean my specific?
15 0
Your title.
16 A
My title?
I am a 37 18 How long have you been employed at Comanche 0
39 peak? -
.s _.
,.g.
A Approximate 1y'
.a 21 G
When you began your employment here, in what g
Capacity was your employment?
I A.
Originally?
24 j
4 0
Yes.
25 t
25 t
=                                     e                                 .                            ** \
=
* 6 1                   A         As af i
e
                                                                                                                                ~
** \\
2                   0         Today we are going to be talking on the subject 3           that everybody is aware of regarding the liner plate, and 4            I am going to be asking you questions about your knowledge 5           and possible participation in relation to certain events 6
 
that led to documentation of the subsequent allegations 7           that the NRC is exploring here.
6 1
l                                                                                                                          I think that a portion of these events 8
A As af i
9 How were you employed at 10           that time?       What was your title?
~
l ij                    A         I was the non-ASME night shift Oc supervisor.
2 0
12                    3         It is my understanding in interviews that 13 I have done preceding this interview that a decision was 14 made to turn over the documentation of the travelers, the 15 inspection travelers for these liner plates from ASME to non-ASME. Is that correct?
Today we are going to be talking on the subject 3
l                                                                                         16     I l
that everybody is aware of regarding the liner plate, and I am going to be asking you questions about your knowledge 4
l                                                                                                 1 1                                                                                                                A         Yes, that's correct.
5 and possible participation in relation to certain events that led to documentation of the subsequent allegations 6
j7    l
7 that the NRC is exploring here.
                                                                                                  '                        So in consideration of your tit,le or your jg                   G                                    -
I think that a portion of these events l
                                                                                                                                      . . ~ . . . .
8 How were you employed at 9
j                                                                                                                 ,
10 that time?
duties at*that time, these records were being transferred 39 2'O rom  ne pa'rty or one group on site to your is that'qight?''
What was your title?
A         The basic responsibility was being trar.sferred; 21                       .
l A
that's correct.
I was the non-ASME night shift Oc supervisor.
22       I 0         Were you involved in the decision to make 23 this transfer?
ij 3
24 l
It is my understanding in interviews that 12 I have done preceding this interview that a decision was 13 made to turn over the documentation of the travelers, the 14 inspection travelers for these liner plates from ASME to 15 non-ASME.
                                                                                                    .            A        No, sir.
Is that correct?
l 16 I
l l
1 j7 l
A Yes, that's correct.
1 G
So in consideration of your tit,le or your jg
.. ~....
j duties at*that time, these records were being transferred 39 ne pa'rty or one group on site to your is that'qight?''
rom 2'O A
The basic responsibility was being trar.sferred; 21 that's correct.
22 I
0 Were you involved in the decision to make 23 this transfer?
24 l A
No, sir.
25 l
25 l
t
t


t . . _ _ _ _ -
t 1
1    i               O       Waro you involved in any of the planning or i
i O
2     l decisions.or discussions as to how the transfer wou'ld be I
Waro you involved in any of the planning or i
2 l decisions.or discussions as to how the transfer wou'ld be I
H.
H.
                    .3             made?
.3 made?
4                     A       I guess I don't understand the question.
4 A
5                     0       Well, in that it was going to come into your 6
I guess I don't understand the question.
hands, did you all have any preliminary meetings or discussion s 7
5 0
as to why it needed to be done and how it was going to be 8
Well, in that it was going to come into your hands, did you all have any preliminary meetings or discussion s 6
implemented, what your duties w~ould be and what your 9
as to why it needed to be done and how it was going to be 7
responsibilities would be once the transfer was made to jo             non-ASME?
implemented, what your duties w~ould be and what your 8
With whom would I --         I didn't have any ij A
responsibilities would be once the transfer was made to 9
12 preliminary meetings, but if you are-referr_ing,.to --
jo non-ASME?
0       What planning occurred for this transfer?
A With whom would I --
I didn't have any ij preliminary meetings, but if you are-referr_ing,.to --
12 0
What planning occurred for this transfer?
13 n
13 n
74 Did they just call you on the phone one day and say, we are sending you.a bunch of travelers.           We are not going 15 to tell you what they are.       When you see them, just figure 16 I
Did they just call you on the phone one day and say, 74 we are sending you.a bunch of travelers.
j7 it out"?
We are not going 15 to tell you what they are.
A     No. The OA/QC supervisor, who,at that time 18                                                               .s. ..     .       _
When you see them, just figure 16 I
                                                              .. ~ . . ..
it out"?
                                                                          . . . . ~
j7 A
was Mr. T6m Brandt, informed me one evening that they would                       i 19
No.
                                                                                                                .~~
The OA/QC supervisor, who,at that time 18
2g -
.. ~....... ~
                              !    be starting -work again on the stainless steel-.linef,and to lodk into it.
.s.
21 0      Did he tell you, did Brandt tell you that 22 they were going to be physically transferring these travelers 23 I                                                                                     i 73 into your control?
was Mr. T6m Brandt, informed me one evening that they would i
A     N . The control of the travelers at that 25 i
19
. ~ ~
be starting -work again on the stainless steel-.linef,and 2g -
to lodk into it.
21 Did he tell you, did Brandt tell you that 0
22 they were going to be physically transferring these travelers 23 I
i into your control?
73 A
N The control of the travelers at that 25 i


9 8
9 8
1           time was with crafts.
1 time was with crafts.
i                                                                   *
i 2
* 2                    O       Well, let me ask you then, was your responsi-3          bility to be for the ongoing construction or for"the re-4           initiation of the construction related to these travelers, 5           or was it for the inspection part related'to them?
O Well, let me ask you then, was your responsi-bility to be for the ongoing construction or for"the re-3 4
6                     A       It would strictly be for inspection activities.
initiation of the construction related to these travelers, 5
7                     O       Okay. For your inspection activities, were 8           you going to physically need these travelers to carry on 9           your inspection duties?
or was it for the inspection part related'to them?
10                     A       Yes, that the inspections were basically 11           signed off, accepted.
6 A
12                     O       Where were the travelers going to be stored 13           once they came to the non-ASME side?
It would strictly be for inspection activities.
14                     A       The travelers were in the possession of crafts.
7 O
15                     0       And they were going to remain or have remained 16           in the possession of the crafts?
Okay.
17                     A       They were in their possession at that time,.
For your inspection activities, were 8
18           yes.                                                       ,
you going to physically need these travelers to carry on 9
                                                        ..~...a   .. . , -.    *-- ..  .
your inspection duties?
39                     0       These are quality con,urol documents, right?
10 A
Yes, that the inspections were basically 11 signed off, accepted.
12 O
Where were the travelers going to be stored 13 once they came to the non-ASME side?
14 A
The travelers were in the possession of crafts.
15 0
And they were going to remain or have remained 16 in the possession of the crafts?
17 A
They were in their possession at that time,.
18 yes.
..~...a 39 0
These are quality con,urol documents, right?
2'O
2'O
* A.
* A.
They are travelers.                             'r.
They are travelers.
They are inspection travelers?                   :
'r.
21                    0    ,
21 0
22 A       They are basically --
They are inspection travelers?
I 23                     O       Are they Brown & Root stainless steel liner 24        '  inspection travelers?
A They are basically --
A       That's correct. That's what they are.
22 I
25        l l
23 O
l i
Are they Brown & Root stainless steel liner inspection travelers?
24 25 l
A That's correct.
That's what they are.
l l
i


9 1'                                       . Mayba it would be useful to havo 2       one out'en the. table, Brooks, and then he can refer to it.
9 1'
3                         MR. GRIFFIN:       All right.             "-
Mayba it would be useful to havo 2
4                         THE WITNESS:       What I was trying to refer to 5         there is normally you have a crafts sign-off as well as 6
one out'en the. table, Brooks, and then he can refer to it.
a QC sign-off.     These are basically QC acceptance.
3 MR. GRIFFIN:
7         BY MR. GRIFFIN:           -
All right.
g                 O               I think that you and                     , and 9         everybody else has probably had to explora these issues, 10 some of these same issues, that we are going to be exploring, jg          and I think you already know a lot of the answers to these 12 questions.
4 THE WITNESS:
13 I hope you won't consider our interview, in 34 spite of the fact that we have a court reporter -- obviously, 15 y u are under oath, and that makes it -- I mean, we are serious about what we are doing here.           But I hope you will 16 I
What I was trying to refer to 5
37 kind of help me along a little bit here.
there is normally you have a crafts sign-off as well as 6
18 I think you know what your test,imony is going 39 to be, and unless                   ) counsels you otherwise, I would 2'O -
a QC sign-off.
Ppreciate, .rather .than mincing words, I-would- like",to just' ~
These are basically QC acceptance.
                        .g   right on through this.                                       4 21 g                    A       Okay. I'll assist you any way I can.             I am i
7 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
trying to understand your cuestions so I can give you a 23 g          proper answer.
g O
            ,5      l                                   -
I think that you and
It might be useful, Mr. Griffin, i
, and 9
everybody else has probably had to explora these issues, 10 some of these same issues, that we are going to be exploring, and I think you already know a lot of the answers to these jg 12 questions.
I hope you won't consider our interview, in 13 spite of the fact that we have a court reporter -- obviously, 34 y u are under oath, and that makes it -- I mean, we are 15 serious about what we are doing here.
But I hope you will 16 I
kind of help me along a little bit here.
37 I think you know what your test,imony is going 18 to be, and unless
) counsels you otherwise, I would 39 Ppreciate,.rather.than mincing words, I-would-like",to just' ~
2'O -
.g right on through this.
4 21 A
Okay.
I'll assist you any way I can.
I am g
i trying to understand your cuestions so I can give you a 23 proper answer.
g l
It might be useful, Mr. Griffin,
,5 i
i
i
                                                      ~
.s e
s     s
~
    .s   e
s s


LU 1          ifyoujustasksdf                       to state what Mr. Brandt told 2i                was going to happen. I think that might clear up sc=e             ,
LU ifyoujustasksdf to state what Mr. Brandt told 1
                                                                                        *H-3 l of the confusion.
2 i was going to happen.
4                             MR. GRIFFIN:     If that would elicit the proper 5          responses, I will take your advice,'                             ]
I think that might clear up sc=e
6         BY MR     GRIFFIN:
*H-3 l of the confusion.
7                     0       What did Brandt tell you was going to occur 8          inrelationto[                                                               ,
4 MR. GRIFFIN:
9                   A.     The liner plate activity had been dormant 10           for a while.     Due to the fact that the ASME Group -- TUGCO 11 had established a non-ASME Group; that they were going to 12 start work on it again; and basically, that it was going.
If that would elicit the proper responses, I will take your advice,'
13
]
                      .to be in our house, ja                            We would be responsible for the inspections
5 6
          ?S on it, and it would be starting right shortly, and prepare 16 to staff up and take a look at it.
BY MR GRIFFIN:
j7   l                 0     Would people under your supervision be conducting 18 subsequent inrpections for the construction work that was
7 0
                                                    ... ~ . . . . . . . ~ - > ~ .  . . , ..
What did Brandt tell you was going to occur inrelationto[
jp          completed?                                   ,
8 9
A.  -
A.
That!s correct.                     - s .- -    .    .s,               ..
The liner plate activity had been dormant 10 for a while.
Due to the fact that the ASME Group -- TUGCO had established a non-ASME Group; that they were going to 11 start work on it again; and basically, that it was going.
12 13
.to be in our house, We would be responsible for the inspections ja
?S on it, and it would be starting right shortly, and prepare to staff up and take a look at it.
16 j7 l
0 Would people under your supervision be conducting subsequent inrpections for the construction work that was 18
... ~....... ~ - > ~.
completed?
jp That!s correct.
- s.-
.s, A.
30 -
30 -
MR. GRIFFIN:     Off the record.           The timo is 21                       -
MR. GRIFFIN:
I                                                                                                 '
Off the record.
22    l       9:20.
The timo is 21 I
l 9:20.
22 l
(Pause in proceedings.)
(Pause in proceedings.)
23     l MR. GRIFFIN:     Back on the record.               It looks 24    l
23 24 l
                  !                                                                                          some
MR. GRIFFIN:
                  ;      like it is 9:22. We have arranged to get                                 -
Back on the record.
25                                                                      .
It looks some 25 like it is 9:22.
t I
We have arranged to get t
I


-                                                                                            m
m
                                            .m                             -                      .
.m
Qu ' "                                                                             11
]
                            ]
Qu ' "
1          icoffee.
11 1
I'                                                 >
icoffee.
s I appreci. . ate it, 2
I' s
                              ^
2
THE WITNSSS:       Thtr.h you.                                       a 1
^
BY NR. GR.FFIN: I                                                          M.
THE WITNSSS:
3
Thtr.h you.
                                                                        ,were you aware of sone potential
I appreci.. ate it, a
: a.                      6                                                                                  1 h                                                                                                                                  l J                    's             problems prior to the transfer ---
GR.FFIN:
                                                                                                                  .                l
M.
,                        4 (Pause in proceedingt.5 )
I 3
\.
BY NR.
                    ,; 7;           BY MR. GRIFFIN:
a.
11
6
: g.                      O                        gwere you aware of some problems with
,were you aware of sone potential 1
^                                                                                                                             .
hJ
10
's problems prior to the transfer ---
: 1)    ,
(Pause in proceedingt.5 )
side?.)                                                                                     1 A           Yes, sir.                                                   ~
4
\\.
,; 7; BY MR. GRIFFIN:
11 O
gwere you aware of some problems with g.
^
10 side?.)
1 1)
A Yes, sir.
~
{
{
12 13 E           I8 it.your understanding that it involved y              the fact that there were signatures on hold points that i
12 E
15 had.not been,' signed off?
I8 it.your understanding that it involved 13 the fact that there were signatures on hold points that y
A           That the documentation, some of the documenta-16     ;        ,
i had.not been,' signed off?
tion was incompleta, yes.                                                                   l 37                                                                                                       <
15 A
jg                      0          Back to my question while ago.               ,
That the documentation, some of the documenta-16 tion was incompleta, yes.
Did you have any invblvement in the meetings or discussions or planning i                                                                                                  j
l 37 0
: g.                                                                   ?
Back to my question while ago.
Did you have jg any invblvement in the meetings or discussions or planning j
i g.
l
l
        . . . .                            determine how to get that inspection documentati4n, altered
?
                  '    2'O .lt                                                                                                   <
determine how to get that inspection documentati4n, altered 2'O.lt l
l I
(I'm trying to think of the right word) completed
r    (I'm trying to think of the right word) completed
* I r
* 21 A           As the situation happened, I basically reported g
21 A
                                  !    back to                         that we appeared to have some incomplete
As the situation happened, I basically reported g
                        <3                         .
back to that we appeared to have some incomplete 3
l documentation.               I asked that the review be performed by s
l documentation.
I asked that the review be performed by s
l i
l i
l the responsible 00 group', which would be the ASME Brown 25 I
25 l
c
the responsible 00 group', which would be the ASME Brown I
                                                                                                                                    \
\\
f 1
c f
1


12 1
12 1
2 l               0         Okay. So would you say that you were the               ~
2 l
I.
0 Okay.
3         one that origine11y raised the concern about receiving this 4         inspection documentation that was not complete 7 5                 A         I am not positive of that, but --
So would you say that you were the I.
6                 0         But you did take those steps?
~
7'                 A         I brought it to people's attention, yes.
3 one that origine11y raised the concern about receiving this 4
8                 0         Were you involved in the ASME side of the 9         house plans to determine how they could, complete this docu-10           mentation?
inspection documentation that was not complete 7 5
11                   A         The ASME Group, Brown & Root QC Group is 12           autonomous. The only thing I could possibly do during the 13 review cycle was make some suggestions.
A I am not positive of that, but --
ja                   O         Did you?
6 0
15 A         As I was talking with'                       _
But you did take those steps?
based on 16 the procedures they had at that time, we determined there 17 was a possible way that we could solve some of the hold te         point problems, yes.                                         ,
7' A
39                 0 What was that solution?
I brought it to people's attention, yes.
10 -
8 0
A    -
Were you involved in the ASME side of the 9
Based on what they call an-NDE,' T1on-d'structEv'e       e examinhtion, chit, which was identified in procedures, it 21 22 could be used as supporting documentation that the inspections l
house plans to determine how they could, complete this docu-10 mentation?
23     l had been performed.                                                                .
11 A
7,                  O         That was not existing procedures, was it?                               ;
The ASME Group, Brown & Root QC Group is 12 autonomous.
i A         Yes.                                                                     :
The only thing I could possibly do during the 13 review cycle was make some suggestions.
25 l
ja O
Did you?
A As I was talking with' based on 15 16 the procedures they had at that time, we determined there was a possible way that we could solve some of the hold 17 te point problems, yes.
39 0
What was that solution?
Based on what they call an-NDE,' T1on-d'structEv'e A
e 10 -
examinhtion, chit, which was identified in procedures, it 21 could be used as supporting documentation that the inspections 22 l
23 l had been performed.
O That was not existing procedures, was it?
7, i
A Yes.
25 l'


13 1             g         They were current and in forca at the tima 2I    you made this determination?
13 1
3             A         Yes, it was a Brown & Root procedure.
g They were current and in forca at the tima you made this determination?
4               0       It is a current Brown & Root procedure.           Are 5     you saying that the Brown & Root procedure in 1983 referenced 6     the use of a chit?
2 I 3
7               A       Yes, it did.
A Yes, it was a Brown & Root procedure.
8               0       In these --
4 0
9               A       Yes, it did.
It is a current Brown & Root procedure.
10               0       Back during the timef 11                                                                                   )
Are 5
12 13 14 15 Tell me if I am wrong,;           ; but 7 thought 16 that the procedures for the authorization of these chits 17 was revised in 1979, and they were not used after that.
you saying that the Brown & Root procedure in 1983 referenced 6
18 Are you familiar with that?
the use of a chit?
I wasn't here at that time.         It was my under-19 A*
7 A
r 2'O -1 itanding that the NDE chits were a valid possible fQr, support- ,
Yes, it did.
21 ing d6cumentation.                                             (
8 0
22                  O       What was your basis for that understanding?
In these --
l             A       The procedure.
9 A
23   :
Yes, it did.
2a  I            G       The old procedure or the existing procedure?
10 0
25 A       The procedure I had at that time, which I l
Back during the timef 11
)
12 13 14 Tell me if I am wrong,;
; but 7 thought 15 that the procedures for the authorization of these chits 16 was revised in 1979, and they were not used after that.
17 18 Are you familiar with that?
A*
I wasn't here at that time.
It was my under-19 r
itanding that the NDE chits were a valid possible fQr, support-2'O -1 ing d6cumentation.
(
21 O
What was your basis for that understanding?
22 l
A The procedure.
23 I
G The old procedure or the existing procedure?
2a A
The procedure I had at that time, which I l
25


14 1         have a copy of right here.
14 1
2                        0    Would you do me a favor and referen'ce' your 3        procedures there, and if you could, tell me what'the procedure 4        number is and what the date of the particular revision is?
have a copy of right here.
5                       A     Sure. The 6
Would you do me a favor and referen'ce' your 2
7                       O     Well, like I was saying while ago,         }
0 procedures there, and if you could, tell me what'the procedure 3
8 it's my understanding,.and this is not'from my own review; 9
number is and what the date of the particular revision is?
I have benefit of the fact that some other NRC personnel 10 have already looked into the technical aspects of this issue.
4 5
If I remember what I was told, 11_
A Sure.
i 12 13 oftheprocedure.]                                                             ]
The 6
But it did, exist at the time 14 15 - l                                                                                   t MR. dRIFFIN:     Right.
7 O
16 j7          BY MR. GRIFFIN:
Well, like I was saying while ago,
S     So in 18       ,
}
19 yn -
it's my understanding,.and this is not'from my own review; 8
                        ..e n. -
I have benefit of the fact that some other NRC personnel 9
f              ;
have already looked into the technical aspects of this issue.
A     Correct.                                               ;
10 If I remember what I was told, 11_
21
i 12 oftheprocedure.]
* 0    -- to let me characterize this as to locate 22 documentation that would support the fact that inspections 23 y            were conducted in           }fertheomittedsignaturesonthese hold points en the traveler inspections;         is that correct?  ,
]
25   l 4
13 But it did, exist at the time 14 15 - l t
MR. dRIFFIN:
Right.
16 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
j7 S
So in 18 19
..e
: n. -
yn -
A Correct.
f 21
-- to let me characterize this as to locate 0
22 documentation that would support the fact that inspections 23 were conducted in
}fertheomittedsignaturesonthese y
is that correct?
l hold points en the traveler inspections; 25 4


15 1               A     Yes.
15 1
                                                                                    ~ '
A Yes.
2 l             0     So that was the ' solution to completing these i
~ '
2 3       forms; that was your all's solution?
2 l
4               A     That was a method that could be used, yes, 5       as supporting documentation, not quality documentation, 6       as supporting documents.
0 So that was the ' solution to completing these i
7               g     What quality documentation was there that 3       existed for those incomplete hold points?
3 forms; that was your all's solution?
9               A     Basically, Brown & Root stainless steel inspec-10       tion travelers.
2 4
11               0     Okay, but if it was blank, if the hold point 12 where it says " Inspector's signature," was blank, what ot'her-13
A That was a method that could be used, yes, 5
                      -quality documentation was there that existed that supported 14 the fact that that inspection had occurred?
as supporting documentation, not quality documentation, 6
15 A     Basically, the NDE request chit.
as supporting documents.
16               0     Now, the NDE.was not a -- I thought you were referring to quality control, QC documents.       It's my under-37 18 standing that the NDE chit is a construction document.
7 g
s   .. '..-    .        .
What quality documentation was there that 3
39 L-   That's correct.
existed for those incomplete hold points?
t
9 A
                            ~~
Basically, Brown & Root stainless steel inspec-10 tion travelers.
                      ; '.  .g     It. is issugd.by millwrights ,,pr .what,I, am           ..
11 0
3                     .
Okay, but if it was blank, if the hold point where it says " Inspector's signature," was blank, what ot'her-12 13
21 talkingaboutwasissuedby[                               ,
-quality documentation was there that existed that supported 14 the fact that that inspection had occurred?
A     That's correct.
A Basically, the NDE request chit.
15 16 0
Now, the NDE.was not a -- I thought you were referring to quality control, QC documents.
It's my under-37 standing that the NDE chit is a construction document.
18 s
L-That's correct.
39 t
~~
.g It. is issugd.by millwrights,,pr.what,I, am 3
talkingaboutwasissuedby[
21 A
That's correct.
22 l
22 l
O     So in     it was not a quality control document, 23                             -
O So in it was not a quality control document, 23 1
1 24 was it?                                                                     ;
was it?
i' Excuse me. I think the procedures 25   j                             .
24 i'
Excuse me. I think the procedures 25 j
I
I


16 1   l clearly show that it was, tha OC procedures in 1978.
16 1 l clearly show that it was, tha OC procedures in 1978.
2   i BY MR. GRIFFIN:                                                             '
2 i BY MR. GRIFFIN:
i 3  l-               G     Well, it was issued by mi11 wrights'and it i
i l-G Well, it was issued by mi11 wrights'and it 3
J          was maintained by mi11 wrights, and they are not quality 5         control inspectors, are they, millwrights are not?
i J
6                   L     No.
was maintained by mi11 wrights, and they are not quality 5
7                   0     It is also my understanding that these chits a         were, as I said, maintained and filed by millwrights --
control inspectors, are they, millwrights are not?
9         or under the millwrights' control until 1983 when they were, 10         if you will pardon the phrase, married up with these inspectic n 11 travelers as the solution to make these documents complete.
6 L
12         Is that correct?
No.
13                   A     As a method.
7 0
14                   0     Yes. Okay.
It is also my understanding that these chits a
15 A   . As well as the Brown G Root stainless steel 16         inspection travelers. also were in their possession.
were, as I said, maintained and filed by millwrights --
17                   0     Okay. The mi11 wrights had these inspection l
9 or under the millwrights' control until 1983 when they were, 10 if you will pardon the phrase, married up with these inspectic n 11 travelers as the solution to make these documents complete.
I 18         . travelers, as well as the chits?                         ,
12 Is that correct?
                                                  . , ~ . .. . .  .f s - ... . . . . . .   ,
13 A
19 A     That's correct.
As a method.
70 ~  l?        .
14 0
                            ~
Yes.
                                    .[           j   Mr. - Grif fin , you are .usi'ncy, the.. " '
Okay.
l term " inspection traveler."     The purpose of the travcler 21 is broader than that, as I understand it.
A
22     l MR. GRIFFIN:     I am sure it has many other                   q 23 functions, as far as welding material and such.                 My pa ticular 74 concern here, and I want to focus on that if you all will                       {
. As well as the Brown G Root stainless steel 15 16 inspection travelers. also were in their possession.
25     -
17 l
l
0 Okay.
The mi11 wrights had these inspection I
18
. travelers, as well as the chits?
.f s -.........
., ~.
A That's correct.
19
~
.[
j Mr. - Grif fin, you are.usi'ncy, the.. " '
70 ~ l?
l term " inspection traveler."
The purpose of the travcler 21 is broader than that, as I understand it.
22 l
MR. GRIFFIN:
I am sure it has many other q
23 functions, as far as welding material and such.
My pa ticular 74 concern here, and I want to focus on that if you all will
{
25 l


i 1/
i 1/
1       allow ma, is to 2       and what the thinking was behind it.and what the perpose 1
1 allow ma, is to 2
3       was,                                                         u.
and what the thinking was behind it.and what the perpose 1
4 I'm not trying to really go beyond that.               Once 5       we can establish what           actually knows occurred and 6
u.
what the reasoning was behind it, I think we will be on 7        the way to fulfilling the NRC's needs in this matter.
3
8 THE WITNESS: Do you mind if I read the part 9        of the procedure here talking about these NDE chits?
: was, I'm not trying to really go beyond that.
10                          MR. GRIFFIN:   Go ahead.
Once 4
ti
5 we can establish what actually knows occurred and what the reasoning was behind it, I think we will be on 6
:  May I ask then, for clarity of 12 -
the way to fulfilling the NRC's needs in this matter.
the~ transcript, ask you to identify the procedure,             ,      ._
7 THE WITNESS:
13          and. state whether it's 14 THE WITNESS:   It is a quality control procedure, 15 It's the Comanche Peak Electric Station Brown & Root Quality 16 Instruction, CP-OCI 2.11-1, 97 18 In Paragraph 5, it is talking about NDE on seam velds and whatever else it identifies.             It says,'" Mote Ar.-
Do you mind if I read the part 8
of the procedure here talking about these NDE chits?
9 MR. GRIFFIN:
Go ahead.
10 May I ask then, for clarity of ti the~ transcript, ask you to identify the procedure, 12-and. state whether it's 13 14 THE WITNESS:
It is a quality control procedure, 15 It's the Comanche Peak Electric Station Brown & Root Quality 16 Instruction, CP-OCI 2.11-1, 97 In Paragraph 5, it is talking about NDE on 18 seam velds and whatever else it identifies.
It says,'" Mote Ar.-
39
39
: g.    .
.tachmEnt 4 (a) is a traveler..and NDE report,gombinat$n and, --
                  .tachmEnt 4 (a) is a traveler..and NDE report,gombinat$n and, --   ,
g.
shall remain in the work area with the millwright office 21 until it has been completed. Upon completion, it shall 22     ,
shall remain in the work area with the millwright office 21 until it has been completed.
              '                                                                                        f be forwarded 1o the OA vault.         OC inspectors shall use                      {
Upon completion, it shall 22 f
23 l                                                                        .              I 3       ;    information on the NDE report chits to update Attachment                           l l
OC inspectors shall use
3 4 (a) daily..." which would be the inspection traveler             "...and-i
{
l be forwarded 1o the OA vault.
23 3
information on the NDE report chits to update Attachment l
4 (a) daily..." which would be the inspection traveler
"...and-3 i
_..--..-a


18 1
18 1
subsequently forward the NDE request chit to the QA vault                 .
subsequently forward the NDE request chit to the QA vault
                                                                              '~
'~
2     daily with the status indicated."-                               .
2 daily with the status indicated."-
3     BY MR. GRIFFIN:                                               .
3 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
i 4               0       Well, in that these inspections apparently 5       occurred, according to the chit, in 1978,'would you consider               l i
i 4
6      their attachment to theI.'
0 Well, in that these inspections apparently 5
7 8             A       No.
occurred, according to the chit, in 1978,'would you consider their attachment to theI.
9             G       'Your understanding --
i 6
10               A       But it would still be -- could be possibly
7 8
                                                    ~
A No.
11       used as a method to support --
9 G
12               O       I understand what you have said what your 13 solution was, and I am not here to debate whether the solutior, 14       was correct or not.
'Your understanding --
15 I just want to achieve an understanding of 16 what you.all were thinking, what your plans were and what 17 you did as a method of correcting or completing -- not 18 correcting -- completing these inspection documents.
10 A
                    ..                         .. . ~ . . . . -.~. -u.. L..  .      ,
But it would still be -- could be possibly
were you involved in the decision,,to 19
~
  . ... g.,
11 used as a method to support --
12 O
I understand what you have said what your solution was, and I am not here to debate whether the solutior, 13 14 was correct or not.
I just want to achieve an understanding of 15 what you.all were thinking, what your plans were and what 16 you did as a method of correcting or completing -- not 17 correcting -- completing these inspection documents.
18 L..
... ~.... -.~
-u..
were you involved in the decision,,to 19 g.,
4 f
4 f
21
21 A
'                          A        No, sir.
No, sir.
22 23                 0       Were you aware that the decision had been               J 24  ;
22 23 0
made and 1
Were you aware that the decision had been J
25 I
made and 24 1
1
25


19 1                       A         A revicw was b2ing parform2d by th2 ASME Group, i
19 1
2 I which was headed up by                                   that came i
A A revicw was b2ing parform2d by th2 ASME Group, i
3 4                                  I discussed what I considered to be some of 5        theproblemsand{
2 I which was headed up by that came i
6 land basically, what went on from that point was y        basically at{ ] direction.
3 I discussed what I considered to be some of 4
0         Okay.     So ltookontheresponsibilityfor 8
theproblemsand{
C 9       I 10 11 A         That's correct.
5 land basically, what went on from that point was 6
12                       0         Based on testimony that was made by i                                                                                                                          l 13 14 tion documents, 15 I gather that 16 I believe, another inspector Jar the name of                                                                   }were 17 reviewing these documents and signing off -- I believe it 18 was                                                                  ,
basically at{
4  s.                                                          ,, .
] direction.
19 A* _                             .
y 8
                                                                                                                                                )
0 Okay.
l
So ltookontheresponsibilityfor C
        , o. .      :    .
9 I-10 11 A
                                .O        .
That's correct.
                                            .v.s . . [
12 0
Based on testimony that was made by l
13 i
14 tion documents, 15 I gather that I believe, another inspector Jar the name of
}were 16 reviewing these documents and signing off -- I believe it 17 was 18 4
s.
A* _
)
19 l
.v.s.. [
1--
1--
21                              ,
.O o
Areyoufamiliarwith[                             }tnstimony 1
Areyoufamiliarwith[
J 22 in this matter?
}tnstimony 21 J
A       No, sir.
in this matter?
23                                                                                                                           .
22 A
l 24
No, sir.
                !                  O       Let's go through it and I will just ask you 25 what you remember as relates to the events as they unfolded                                                               ,
23 l
I                                                                                                                                1 i                                                                                                                               ,
O Let's go through it and I will just ask you 24 what you remember as relates to the events as they unfolded 25 I
1 i
I
I
                                                                        - - - - -        -~--             _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
-~--


40 i
40 i
          )       on [-'
)
I                                                                     ;. . . <
on [-'
2                                                               .,
I 2
3                   A       Do you have         ,
3 A
                                                              ; testimony?         u.
Do you have
4                   g       Yes, and I am just going to go through li, 5         as my understanding of my reading of the events' occurred; 6
; testimony?
and I am going to try to jog your memory as to what you 7
u.
heard or what you observed.                                                                 j g  !                                        ' testimony indj eates that '
4 g
9 10 31 was. given the instructions.
Yes, and I am just going to go through li, 5
12 Do you recall that?- Do you recall hearing                     n 13        ,
as my understanding of my reading of the events' occurred; and I am going to try to jog your memory as to what you 6
                            )eXPainto'"
7 heard or what you observed.
l L
j
                                                          .what{,}intendedfor. ltodo?               ,_
' testimony indj eates that '
jj                    A'       Yes.     (Ehewasaskedifshecouldsignoff 15 thesteps)yes, sir..                                         ,
g 9
0       During the explanation, did'                   jexpress 16 l     any concerns about the' validity of whatf                 }wasdoing?
10 was. given the instructions.
17 It was basically that                                                   l A
31 Do you recall that?- Do you recall hearing n
12
)eXPainto'"
.what{,}intendedfor.
ltodo?
l 13 L
(Ehewasaskedifshecouldsignoff A'
Yes.
jj thesteps)yes, sir..
15 0
During the explanation, did' jexpress 16 17 l
any concerns about the' validity of whatf
}wasdoing?
A It was basically that l
19
19
                                                                          - - .4 . .     ;,..,. . . ~ ~ '           I
- -.4..
. . . . yy .  ,.
;,..,... ~ ~ '
I
yy.
                '            +                                                      I hap many g
I I hap many
22 other disciplines to be responsible for, and I was just l
+
in and out, basically. The representative that I had there 23                                                                                     .
g other disciplines to be responsible for, and I was just 22 l
was                  .1       ,jwas there the majcrity of,the time.                   >
in and out, basically.
i A.             -
The representative that I had there 23
i j
.1
I was basically in and out.
,jwas there the majcrity of,the time.
          ,5 i
i was A.
J e           4   - .. y
i I was basically in and out.
                                                                                                                    )
j
,5 i
J e
4
-.. y
)


21-1               0         okay. So you just heard portions of it?                 You 1
21-1 0
l                2   ! knew what was going on?
okay.
3               A.         Well,-I like to think so, but....             -
So you just heard portions of it?
d               G         Okay, that's the answer.
You l
5                           Since you apparently only heard a portion 6
1 2 ! knew what was going on?
3 A.
Well,-I like to think so, but....
d G
Okay, that's the answer.
5 Since you apparently only heard a portion 6
7 8
7 8
J 9               A   .
J 9
A certain time frame?
A A certain time frame?
10                 0         Yes.
10 0
11 12 13 14                 n         I think                   Itestimony indicated f
Yes.
15     L 16
11 12 13 14 n
                                                                                        ' Was that 17       your understanding?
I think Itestimony indicated f
18     -          A         The sooner the better, I assumq, yeah.
15 L
                                                                  . . . , -    . . . . . . .                  l 19                 g Back to my original question:
' Was that 16 17 your understanding?
18 A
The sooner the better, I assumq, yeah.
l 19 g
Back to my original question:
Did you hear 20 T
Did you hear 20 T
21                                             J 22                 A         I don't recall exactly that.       I recall that 23   i i
21 J
24 i
22 A
SD   )
I don't recall exactly that.
4
I recall that 23 i
                                                .               e 9
i 24 i
SD
)
4 e
9
 
22 1
0 Confusion with who?
2 A
Between the ASME inspectors and the review j
3
: group, and their group.
4 0
Didyouhearanyportionof[
L explanation to' 6
y1 A
Yes, as a general statement, not for the Specific --
8 9
G Not for each --
10 A
Not for each specific item; as a general state-j ment that it appeared at that time that this could be used 11
.as supporting documentation.
12 13 G
Let me characterize something here for a minute, and if it's correct, I want to ask a question.
14 Based on the NRC's review of these travelers, i
15 the stapling together of the chits to the relevant inspection 16 4
traveler is generally limited to just the chit for Category
)7 l
l l',the hold point.
18
.-: ~ -. ' -
~ - "- -
\\
I In that the NRC comes in years later and pulls 39 I
~
these inspection ~ travelers ~'and sees this-ctr3.t attaehed,-
2O and th'en'in our exploring, the chit is representing 'his 21 Category 1, did you have anything to do or --
i 22 i
l A
Operation 1.
Do you mean Operation l?
23 0
Yes.
I'm calling it Category 1, though.
If l
24 l
lithelpsyou, I'll call it Operation 1.
25 6


22 1                  0      Confusion with who?
23 1
2                  A      Between the ASME inspectors and the review            ,
At som1 point, apparently, a decision was f made to get the chits and the travelers together.
j group, 3                            and their group.
I'm digres-2 3
4                  0      Didyouhearanyportionof[          L
sing a minute.
          $        explanation to'                                                            .
Did you have anything to do with that or were 4
6 y1                  A      Yes, as a general statement, not for the 8  -    Specific --
5 you aware that that process was being taken, that somebody I
9                  G      Not for each --
Not for each specific item; as a general state-                            j 10                    A 11 ment that it appeared at that time that this could be used 12
                  .as supporting documentation.
G      Let me characterize something here for a 13 14 minute, and if it's correct, I want to ask a question.
Based on the NRC's review of these travelers,                              i 15 16 the stapling together of the chits to the relevant inspection                              4
        )7 traveler is generally limited to just the chit for Category l
l 18        l',the hold point.
                                                .-: ~ - . ' -  *
                                                                  ~ - "- -  --        -
                                                                                            , . . . -          \
                                  ,                                                                            I In that the NRC comes in years later and pulls 39
                          --                                                        ~              " ' ' '
I    .
these inspection ~ travelers ~'and sees this- ctr3.t attaehed,-
2O and th'en'in our exploring, the chit is representing 'his            .
21 22 Category 1, did you have anything to do or --                                              i i
l            A    Operation 1.      Do you mean Operation l?
23                                                                                  -
Yes. I'm calling it Category 1, though.                  If 24 0                                                                                l l                                                                                          .  .
25      lithelpsyou, I'll call it Operation 1.
6                                          $
* 23 1
At som1 point, apparently, a decision was I'm digres-2  f made to get the chits and the travelers together.
3         sing a minute.
4 Did you have anything to do with that or were 5         you aware that that process was being taken, that somebody                           I 6
was getting the inspection travelers and the chits together?
was getting the inspection travelers and the chits together?
7                   A   Yes, I believe I was aware of that.
6 7
g                   0   Did you participate in that?
A Yes, I believe I was aware of that.
9'                   A   No.
g 0
10                     0   Going back to the conversation between               t
Did you participate in that?
            ))                          were you present wheni i
9 '
12 l
A No.
13 Id                     .
10 0
15 A    It would have to be there.
Going back to the conversation between t
16 0     Wasthst{ .}explanationto[u-             s A     I believe that as a general discussion they 77                                                                                         ~
were you present wheni
is          said the       'were available and -- the
))
                                                .    . . . ~ . . . , . . , , - %-                          ,
i 12 l
In my reviewing the procedure, I concluded 39 0*
13 Id A
I 21 22   i f
It would have to be there.
                  '                      When the NRC looked at these travelers, they                         1 j
15 0
23                                                                                 .
Wasthst{
24 in many cases just found one and possibly two chits, rather                       ,
.}explanationto[
i than the five that the old procedures would have indicated 25 i
16 u-s A
I believe that as a general discussion they 77
~
said the
'were available and -- the is
... ~...,
0*
In my reviewing the procedure, I concluded 39 I
21 22 i
f When the NRC looked at these travelers, they j
23 1
in many cases just found one and possibly two chits, rather 24 i
than the five that the old procedures would have indicated 25 i
i l
i l
I
I


34 1         would be present.
34 1
2
would be present.
              -                        I am trying to establish for the rebo'rd here 3
I am trying to establish for the rebo'rd here 2
why just those chits that were believed to correspond with'                         l 4          Operation 1 were included with the traveler, and not all 3           five. Do you know?
why just those chits that were believed to correspond with' l
A       I would assume that if there's chits available, 6
3 Operation 1 were included with the traveler, and not all 4
7 that they wo91d have them for everything, whatever was g          required.
3 five.
D       Do you know if chits were --           Well, I guess 9
Do you know?
jo          th'at was before your time.
A I would assume that if there's chits available, 6
          );
that they wo91d have them for everything, whatever was 7
A        I really can't answer to '77 and '78, what-12 was going on,, because I wasn't here.
required.
O         I   ay wall be asking you questions that you 13             .
g D
3, don't have personal knowledge, that maybe you have merely
Do you know if chits were --
                      ' heard. If you answer the question, would you please inform 3
Well, I guess 9
                                                  ~
th'at was before your time.
y   lmethatthisisnotwhatyouknowofyourownpersonal-i g
jo A
I really can't answer to '77 and '78, what-
);
was going on,, because I wasn't here.
12 O
I ay wall be asking you questions that you 13 don't have personal knowledge, that maybe you have merely 3,
' heard.
If you answer the question, would you please inform 3
lmethatthisisnotwhatyouknowofyourownpersonal-
~
y i
knowledge, but what you've been told.
knowledge, but what you've been told.
A         Right.     All right, I'll do that.
g A
          )g                                                               .>-  . . . .
Right.
                          .                  .        .- ~ . . . - .. , ,.                 ,, ,    _
All right, I'll do that.
                                    . I know we got up to the point to where 19
)g
                                                                                  . Do yqq hav.c - -
.- ~... -..,,.
20   l any other questions after that, what transpired afte.- that?
I know we got up to the point to where 19
Do I have other questions?         I've got a lot O
. Do yqq hav.c - -
j of them.
20 l
g       ,
any other questions after that, what transpired afte.- that?
A         Okay.   !t appears to me, if you can, weho 1
O Do I have other questions?
I've got a lot of them.
j g
A Okay.
!t appears to me, if you can, weho 1
from '77 to '78, and if we could kind'of stay with what.
from '77 to '78, and if we could kind'of stay with what.
25 I
25 I
i                                                                 . . ,
i


25
25
      -1       ! I-can give you --
-1
2                    GL I don't want to confuse you, but.since rhese
! I-can give you --
              . l-1 3-{ were. coming to your' responsibility, I have to assdme that d          'you had some knowledge of what you were getting.rcad that 5            you had to make some decisions as to how you were. going                           l a
I don't want to confuse you, but.since rhese GL 2
6:          to handle these things, and you had some knowledge of_this l
l -
j 7             solution for' completing these.
1 3-{ were. coming to your' responsibility, I have to assdme that
i s                     A       Basically --
'you had some knowledge of what you were getting.rcad that d
you had to make some decisions as to how you were. going l
5 a
to handle these things, and you had some knowledge of_this 6:
j 7
solution for' completing these.
i s
A Basically --
We have kind of missed a step, 9
We have kind of missed a step, 9
10 {           if I'may int'erject.                           ,
10 {
1 11 MR. GRIFFIN:   If you can fill in the record,-                   f i
if I'may int'erject.
12 I would appreciate it.
1 MR. GRIFFIN:
13 IfIunderstand[                     ,
If you can fill in the record,-
concern, yourquestionsskippedfrom{                         }conversationperhaps ja 15 as much as 16-i There were some . things that happened in 17 18             b9 tween.                                               ,
f 11 i
                                                      ...~.......~
I would appreciate it.
                                                                          - es.    . . . ....    ,, .
12 IfIunderstand[
MR. GRIFFIN:     Well, if you think it would                   ,
: concern, 13 yourquestionsskippedfrom{
39                                                        ?
}conversationperhaps ja as much as 15 16-There were some. things that happened in 17 i
7g -    f      he1p bc NRC's understanding, I would apprecia-te y64,r, filling
18 b9 tween.
- es.
... ~....... ~
MR. GRIFFIN:
Well, if you think it would 39
?
he1p bc NRC's understanding, I would apprecia-te y64,r, filling f
-7g -
(
(
it in.'
it in.'
21 I sure.
21 I sure.
if you could, 22       ;
if you could, 22 just explain for Mr. Griffin what it was you did after your
          .23 just explain for Mr. Griffin what it was you did after your 25                                                                                               >
.23 25 i
i


j i
j i
1      j[                                                                                       26-       I           k l            1 l
j[
2     l                                                                                                               {1 3                                                                                                                       k THE WITNESS:     Well, after'                                                     !
26-I k
4 I
1 l
1                                                                             informed me that the activity was again starting, which -- again, 5i I don't,know how long it was shut down bec 'ise I did 6
l 2
n't                               j work on it, but apparently it had been dor. ant for a whil                           e.
l
7                                               .
{
8 9                                                                                                                           I l
1 3
10 ,1 33                 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
k THE WITNESS:
12                             3             Who were 13                               A.
Well, after' I
A gentleman by the name of -- I can't remember
informed 4
            ;,                  his name right now.
1 me that the activity was again starting, which -- again, 5i I don't,know how long it was shut down bec 'ise I did n't j
t 15                                 0             Okay.                                                                             !
work on it, but apparently it had been dor. ant for a whil 6
e.
7 8
9 I
l 10,1 33 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
12 3
Who were 13 A.
A gentleman by the name of -- I can't remember his name right now.
t 15 0
Okay.
Maybe you will remember it later.
Maybe you will remember it later.
16                                 A.             Okay.
16 A.
Okay.
It was the -- I can see his face, but i
It was the -- I can see his face, but i
37 l I can't get a name on it right now.
l I can't get a name on it right now.
I le l in a minute.
37 I
I'll think of it here                                 . ;
I'll think of it here le l in a minute.
                                                                            . . ~ . . -
. ;I i
                                                                                                                        ,, -    -          Ii 19 l       ,
.. ~.. -
                                            'O       '
19 l
Okay.
'O Okay.
                      .i
.i
                                          .A,   --                                                                              .. ., ,
.A, 20 l l
20 l
1 g
  . . . . . .                            l   .    .
1 I came back to[
1 g                                                                   '                                                  1 I came back to[                                           l 22                 and explained to'                                                                                             !
l 22 and explained to' 23 f
23                                               _
I g
f I
I basically sat dcwn with a few travelers with some of my inspectors, and we were trying to piece 73 f
g I basically sat dcwn with a few travelers 73 with some of my inspectors, and we were trying to piece f
9
9


21 1       it together, and it senm2d to ba a difficult thing.                               So
21 1
                                                          ~
it together, and it senm2d to ba a difficult thing.
2   lI informed                           that it appeared to me that the iSME 3       Brown & Root QC Group should be doing a review on 'it and 4       see what they could do to piece together this situation 5       bef ore they turned it over to us.
So 2 lI informed that it appeared to me that the iSME
6                               Thoroughly understand that                             'is on 7
~
                                                                          , My hours at that time were r
3 Brown & Root QC Group should be doing a review on 'it and 4
L8         about - -     .
see what they could do to piece together this situation 5
bef ore they turned it over to us.
6 Thoroughly understand that
'is on
, My hours at that time were 7
r L8 about - -
9 I
9 I
10   1
10 1
                                                                      'would get up somebody and 11
11
[ }saidthat            ,
[ }saidthat
12         they would come,                                                                         .
'would get up somebody and l
l 13         I said, "Okay."                                                                                     l
12 they would come, 13 I said, "Okay."
                                                                              ~                                               !
l
I was informed that                         would be coming                 I 14                                                                         _
~
15    lI i-                            ,
I was informed that would be coming I
he would be doing 16   l   a review cycle.j 1                                       I can't remember 17                             ,    cameto[                          _
14 lI he would be doing 15 i-16 l
la       when or -- you know, exact dates, but he came to the night                                         l
a review cycle.j cameto[
                                      ,                        .-: ~ . . . .
1 I can't remember 17 la when or -- you know, exact dates, but he came to the night l
shift; went up and we got out some of the travelers and 19
.-: ~....
  - ~
shift; went up and we got out some of the travelers and 19 he -lo ked at it 'and I showed him the hold.. points thgt wers ---
2'O - ;
2'O - ;
he -lo ked at it 'and I showed him the hold.. points thgt wers ---              ,
- ~
21 mis s in'g . Based on the procedure -- we looked at the, procedure 22          that was in effect at that time.
21 mis s in'g.
23 Based on the chits -- some of the chits were I                                                                                       .
Based on the procedure -- we looked at the, procedure that was in effect at that time.
24          available there.           They were all in that area.
22 Based on the chits -- some of the chits were 23 I
                    "                                                                                                      I 25    ;
available there.
It appeared at that time that possibly the 1
They were all in that area.
(                                                                                         .
24 I
It appeared at that time that possibly the 25 1
(


28 i
28 i
1       inspsetors had just not brought it up to dats.                                               !
1 inspsetors had just not brought it up to dats.
1 1,et me break in here for a second. *Were'the 2                0                                                                                  l 3
1 2
chits that you were'looking at originals or were.they the 4       carbons?
0 1,et me break in here for a second. *Were'the 3
5               A.       I'm not sure.       I assume they,were originals.
chits that you were'looking at originals or were.they the 4
carbons?
5 A.
I'm not sure.
I assume they,were originals.
l 6
l 6
They were not carbon --
They were not carbon --
No, I'm.not talking -- well, as I understand                             !
7 0
7                0
No, I'm.not talking -- well, as I understand
                            ~
~
8 it, the chits were in multi --
8 it, the chits were in multi --
9               A.       They were white in color so I assume they                                 1 10         were originals.
9 A.
11 g         Okay.                                                                     j l
They were white in color so I assume they 10 were originals.
A.       I remember the NDE chits and they were dif ferent.                       l 12 l
11 g
13 colors. They were white; appeared to be originals.                                       l jj
Okay.
                                              -- I went on about my duties as 15 non-ASME QC supervisor.                     ]spenthoursinthere                             .j
j l
                                                                                                            .1 16 going over items.
A.
                                    - would call me up sometimes.                 I would come 17                        -
I remember the NDE chits and they were dif ferent.
in and we would look at it and he had the basic method, 18
12 l
                                                                                                              \
colors.
They were white; appeared to be originals.
l 13
-- I went on about my duties as jj non-ASME QC supervisor.
]spenthoursinthere
.j 15 going over items.
16 17
- would call me up sometimes.
I would come in and we would look at it and he had the basic method, 18
\\
the idea that the chits 4:culd"be. used' Tor.. supporting' the-
the idea that the chits 4:culd"be. used' Tor.. supporting' the-
                    .                    .                                                          ~
~
39 20 - I. d. oc.ume.ntatio.n .                                                     . , ;.,
39 20 - I. d. oc.ume.ntatio.n.
I suggested at that time that possibly it                                 j g                                                                                     -
I suggested at that time that possibly it j
                                                                                                              \
g
w uld be a good idea to get the originating inspectors to 22   i l
\\
23 t
w uld be a good idea to get the originating inspectors to 22 i
come in and assist.       Basically, I guess, they weren't
l t
                                                                                                ~
come in and assist.
available.                                                                                  (
Basically, I guess, they weren't 23 available.
24 g       Were they unavailable because they no lenger 3     ,
~
1 i                                                                                               I i
(
24 g
Were they unavailable because they no lenger 3
1 i
i
{
{
                                                                        .r . . .                        ,
.r


su 1           worksd on cita?
su 1
i 2!                       A.       I am really not 'sure whether they w' ele no               .
worksd on cita?
3            longer here or whether they were off in other responsible d           ' areas and weren't available.             I really didn't investigate 5             that part, just that they were unavailable.
i 2 !
6                         0       Did'                 give the go-ahead or authorize 7          g
A.
                                                  , - I keep referring to it as a solution,.
I am really not 'sure whether they w' ele no 3
8 9                       A.     I don't believe so.           Basically, the review 10     ,
longer here or whether they were off in other responsible d
cycle and whatever else was not in our house.                       It was basica1] y       ,
' areas and weren't available.
: 1)             with the ASME Group.         They were doing a review cycle.                     I         i 12              don'tthinkf                 reported to --                       } reported 13             to!                                                       ]andtheywere ja              totally autonomous organizations, independent.                                               !
I really didn't investigate 5
g       I understand.         Let me change that, then.                 Do 15 ui              you know iff                                                             .
that part, just that they were unavailable.
17 A.     No, sir. I don't know whether they discussed 3g I,         .                          ,_ . ~ . . .. , ...-r.           . . . .   . ,, . .
6 0
                !      it or notr
Did' give the go-ahead or authorize
, - I keep referring to it as a solution,.
7 g
8 9
A.
I don't believe so.
Basically, the review 10 cycle and whatever else was not in our house.
It was basica1] y 1) with the ASME Group.
They were doing a review cycle.
I i
don'tthinkf reported to --
} reported 12 13 to!
]andtheywere totally autonomous organizations, independent.
ja g
I understand.
Let me change that, then.
Do 15 you know iff ui 17 A.
No, sir.
I don't know whether they discussed 3g I,
...-r.
,. ~...,
it or notr
* 39
* 39
                              . ~'
,~,..,.,.. - '
                                . G    . .Go ahead.      -.                    3,.   ..      ,~ ,.., . ,.. - '
~' G
      ,3 A.     I was informed byf                   lthar they had 21                           .
.Go ahead.
L 22 l
3,.
af 23       l                           }that they i
,3 A.
l       to review and possibly do 24 25 of using the chit as evide                                                               ,
I was informed byf lthar they had 21 L
i
af 22 l
23 l
}that they i
l to review and possibly do 24 of using the chit as evide 25 i


30' I           which I really didn't hava a. problem with.
30' I
2 Like I told him," you know, " Proceed.#' We-3          .w ere getting -- crafts were -- everybody was really wanting 4           to get started on this thing. Let's go.
which I really didn't hava a. problem with.
5 So as they started in the process,I 6            whoatthat. time [
Like I told him," you know, " Proceed.#' We-2
7                        3 I asked him to go up' there and review what was going 3             on, pay attention.
. ere getting -- crafts were -- everybody was really wanting 3
What my instructions to                                       what 9
w 4
to             they did. complete, was to take the new procedure -- a new
to get started on this thing.
                                                                                                      ~
Let's go.
11            procedure.had been issued which became QI-QP-11.14-6, which 12 was a TUGC0 procedura r 13 I basically _said take the inspection traveler 14 that is identified in that procedure, along with-the second 15 page which talked about the NDE requirements, and attach 16 it to it, staple it to it.                                                                .
So as they started in the process,I 5
17 g           So this procedure was made in consideration 18          .of this need to complete these open inspection forms?-        . - . . . . . . . . .
whoatthat. time [
                                                                                    . ~ ...,,. .. , %                         , , .
6 3 I asked him to go up' there and review what was going 7
3 on, pay attention.
9 What my instructions to what to they did. complete, was to take the new procedure -- a new
~
procedure.had been issued which became QI-QP-11.14-6, which 11 12 was a TUGC0 procedura r I basically _said take the inspection traveler 13 that is identified in that procedure, along with-the second 14 page which talked about the NDE requirements, and attach 15 16 it to it, staple it to it.
17 g
So this procedure was made in consideration
.of this need to complete these open inspection forms?
18
. ~.,,..., %
~
I' beg your pardon?
I' beg your pardon?
                                                            ~
A.
A.
39
39
                                                                                                    ?
?
                                              .    .g         . .I,'m asking.yeu, was the pr.ocedur.e. written . . - -
.g
70 21 in response to this need to correct or complete this,informa-22 tion?
.I,'m asking.yeu, was the pr.ocedur.e. written.. - -
A.         No. It's a new issue of a procedure based 23 74 en the fact that the responsibility for inspections would 25 be coming into the non-ASME Group, which is basically the i
70 in response to this need to correct or complete this,informa-21 tion?
  ,...,i - -
22 A.
                                                                        ,.__m   _.    ..        _
No.
It's a new issue of a procedure based 23 en the fact that the responsibility for inspections would 74 be coming into the non-ASME Group, which is basically the 25 i
,...,i - -
,.__m


                                                                                                  .u 1       TUGCO GroGp.
.u 1
l It would require ~a new procedure bei:cuse'we                     l 2i I
TUGCO GroGp.
A-new procedure 3 l weren't certified to Brown & Root procedures.
l 2 i It would require ~a new procedure bei:cuse'we l
4 would be issued by Quality Engineering that was a TUGC0 3
I 3 l weren't certified to Brown & Root procedures.
A-new procedure would be issued by Quality Engineering that was a TUGC0 4
procedure which our inspectors would be certified to.
procedure which our inspectors would be certified to.
The only     persons that were qualifie'd to the 6
3 The only persons that were qualifie'd to the 6
7 CP-QAP procedure at that time were ASME inspectors.
CP-QAP procedure at that time were ASME inspectors.
8 G       You are saying, then, that there is no 9
7 G
relationship between the inclusion of the reference to NDE 10 chits on this new procedure, the inclusion of the reference
You are saying, then, that there is no 8
                                                                                                    ~
relationship between the inclusion of the reference to NDE 9
j7 to chits has nothing to do with the prcblem of filling in these incompleted sign-off hold points?                                 _
chits on this new procedure, the inclusion of the reference 10
12 A.     You basically have a new quality instruction 13                                                                                             (
~
issued.                                                                           l jj l
to chits has nothing to do with the prcblem of filling in j7 these incompleted sign-off hold points?
I understand that, but I.am asking you 15                       .
12 A.
specifically. Are you saying there is no relationship between 16 t
You basically have a new quality instruction 13
                  '    the need to reference these chits to get these forms com-37 18 pleted and this new procedure that just happens to say you '
(
                                                    . . . ~ . . . , . . . . , -.. . - . .
issued.
You say there l's ,, ,. _
jj I understand that, but I.am asking you 15 specifically.
                                                                                                          /
Are you saying there is no relationship between 16 t
need an~ inspection form and the chit?
the need to reference these chits to get these forms com-37 pleted and this new procedure that just happens to say you 18 need an~ inspection form and the chit?
39 nd yefationship between the,proced re an,d.,t, hat,need?                   ,---
You say there l's,,,. _
. . . . . g.     ,
/
                              . A.       I guess you are not getting across to me.
... ~...,...., -... -..
                                                      .]Theprocedurewasissuedmonths g                                                                                               I g      l before the problem was discovered.
39 nd yefationship between the,proced re an,d.,t, hat,need?
            .,          3Y MR. GRIFFIN:
g.
e-     ,
. A.
CL
I guess you are not getting across to me.
                                        !s that your understanding, g                                                                           _
.]Theprocedurewasissuedmonths g
a
I l
* e
before the problem was discovered.
g 3Y MR. GRIFFIN:
e-CL
!s that your understanding, g
a e


              ~
~
l 32         1 1
32 1
1,                     A               Yeah, I believa it was.         It was --       The pro-
1, A
                                                                                                .                            1 2           cedure was on the street, the TUGCO procedure, ye's.                             The               ll l
Yeah, I believa it was.
3 l       quality instruction for the TUGco inspections was' en the l
It was --
4            street, as well as the old Brown & Root procedure was still
The pro-1 2
                                                                                                                            ]
cedure was on the street, the TUGCO procedure, ye's.
5           in effect.
The l
6 Again, this is a transition.           This'is going                 .)
l l
I 7           to end and this is going to start up.                       Okay. Finish up                     l 8           what you are supposed to do so we can start up and do what f
quality instruction for the TUGco inspections was' en the 3
l 4
street, as well as the old Brown & Root procedure was still
]
5 in effect.
Again, this is a transition.
This'is going
.)
6 I
7 to end and this is going to start up.
Okay.
Finish up l
8 what you are supposed to do so we can start up and do what f
9 l we are supposed to do.
9 l we are supposed to do.
I jo     i                 O               Do you happen to have that procedure that                             j 11 you are referencing right now?
I jo i
12 A               Yeah, I think I do.
O Do you happen to have that procedure that j
13                       0               I need the number and the revision and the 34 date.
11 you are referencing right now?
A               I have QI-QP-ll.14-6, Rev. 1, which was issued 15 i
A Yeah, I think I do.
16       l September 8th, 1982.
12 13 0
I                             -
I need the number and the revision and the date.
17      l                             -
34 A
j Do you have Rev. O or can you
I have QI-QP-ll.14-6, Rev. 1, which was issued 15 i
          )g l tell when Rev. O was issued,'                           ]fromthat, document?
16 l September 8th, 1982.
                                                              . .;  ~1. . . . . , ~ ->-         .. .
I l
                                    ^
j Do you have Rev. O or can you 17 l tell when Rev. O was issued,'
THE WITNESS:     No.
]fromthat, document?
)g
~1.
..., ~ ->-
^
THE WITNESS:
No.
39
39
                                ~
: j. BY'MR..' GRIFFIN.: -
: g. j. BY'MR..' GRIFFIN.: -                     .
~
                                  'D               Which one references the combining of t he 21                               ,
g.
inspection travelers with the chits?                       Which rev. was that?
'D Which one references the combining of t he 21 inspection travelers with the chits?
22         !
Which rev. was that?
22
'} That's the 1978 procedure.
e i
e i
i 23 i
THE WITNESS:
That's the 1978 procedure, Brown
.j i
i
i
                                                                '} That's the 1978 procedure.
& Root procedure.
23                                    -                                                            .          i
I 4
          .j                                        THE WITNESS:      That's the 1978 procedure, Brown i
i I
i
          ,,            & Root procedure.                                                                               ;
I                                                                                                 4 i
I


l                                                                                 33 i
l 33 i
t             BY MR. GRIFFIN:
t BY MR. GRIFFIN:
2l                      0     Aren't we talking about a new procedure that 3
2 l 0
was issued for the changcover from ASME to non-ASME?             Isn't 4
Aren't we talking about a new procedure that was issued for the changcover from ASME to non-ASME?
Isn't 3
that what you've been speaking or here?
that what you've been speaking or here?
5 A     Yes.
4 A
0     When was that procedure issued, that new pro-6 7              cedure in 19837 8
Yes.
A     I have a copy of Texas Utilities Generating 9
5 0
Company's Quality Instruction No. QI-OP-ll.14-6, Rev. O, and it was issued March     26, 1982.
When was that procedure issued, that new pro-6 cedure in 19837 7
10 l
A I have a copy of Texas Utilities Generating 8
p                        D      Could you read the reference part about the 12 chits?
Company's Quality Instruction No. QI-OP-ll.14-6, Rev. O, 9
A     The reference part about the chits?
26, 1982.
13 ja                      0     Where it says that you will combine.the travelers with the chits, or that the chits will be included 15 with the travelers, or whatever it says.
l and it was issued March 10 D
16 A     I don't think you understand.         Where they 37 jg            ,are referencing the chits,is in the Brown -&--Root         procedure
Could you read the reference part about the p
                                    .                      ..: ~ . . . , .. rs which was*in effect in 1978 when this was being constructed.
chits?
39 0  -  I   nderstand- that, but what 4 misunde'r, stood '* "
12 A
2'0 was, I thought you said that prior to this solution caf using 21 g
The reference part about the chits?
these chits to complete the unsigned hold points, that months l
13 0
g          l preceding that a new TUGCO procedure was issued which says 7,
Where it says that you will combine.the ja travelers with the chits, or that the chits will be included 15 with the travelers, or whatever it says.
take your cid inspection travelers on liner plates and take the DE chits and put them together.
16 A
25         I i
I don't think you understand.
1 l
Where they 37
i
,are referencing the chits,is in the Brown & Root procedure jg
..: ~...,.. rs which was*in effect in 1978 when this was being constructed.
39 I
nderstand-that, but what 4 misunde'r, stood '* "
2'0 0
was, I thought you said that prior to this solution caf using 21 these chits to complete the unsigned hold points, that months g
l l
preceding that a new TUGCO procedure was issued which says g
take your cid inspection travelers on liner plates and take 7,
the DE chits and put them together.
25 I
i 1
l i


34 1                                         A         No.
34 1
j 2i                                        0         That's not what you were saying?
A No.
                                                                                                                                                              ~
j 2 i 0
3                                         A         That's not what I'm saying.
That's not what you were saying?
4                                         0         Okay. Well, I completely misunderstood you.
3 A
5                                         A.         I guess what I'm trying to get across to you, 6         in 1978 the procedure that was in effect is the ASME Brown 7         & Root Procedure No. CP-QAP --
That's not what I'm saying.
8                                         0         1 understand that.
~
i         9                                         A         -- which referenced the chits.                                                       Somewhere 10 in time, in 1981 we basically had a split between ASME and 11 non-ASME, and the non-ASME Group was set up to do the 1;         inspcetions during the 1981 period.
4 0
13 TUGCO, or Texas Utilities Generating Company, ja         issued tta procedures, which I just mentioned to you was Rev.
Okay.
15         0, and what waq the date on there, March the 28th, 19827 16 4             Yes.
Well, I completely misunderstood you.
THE WITNESS:                           Now we are in the process of 17 18 tranr;ition.
5 A.
We are going .- - . . -
I guess what I'm trying to get across to you, 6
to start and           - ~ .we    - > -are  -          going to ,,take-
in 1978 the procedure that was in effect is the ASME Brown 7
                                                        ~
& Root Procedure No. CP-QAP --
39 it over.                                                                                   ,
8 0
                      .                                                                                                                                                  ~~
1 understand that.
                                                                                                                                * *** P           *'
i 9
    -          -" ~      ~    ~                            '
A
This 'documenE here --
-- which referenced the chits.
Somewhere 10 in time, in 1981 we basically had a split between ASME and 11 non-ASME, and the non-ASME Group was set up to do the 1;
inspcetions during the 1981 period.
13 TUGCO, or Texas Utilities Generating Company, ja issued tta procedures, which I just mentioned to you was Rev.
15 0, and what waq the date on there, March the 28th, 19827 4
Yes.
16 THE WITNESS:
Now we are in the process of 17 tranr;ition.
We are going to start and we are going to take-18
- ~. - > - -
~
it over.
39 This 'documenE here --
* *** P
* V-
* V-
      . 20 21                                                  e            a                Which 'L                                           ]hasinbishand-                     -
~~
THE WITNESS: What I have in my hand --
-" ~
22     j I
~
                                                                                              -- the traveler for Weld No. 51.
~
23     l                                                                                                                                                                 ,
-. 20 Which 'L
                                                              -                                                                                                                    1 THE WITNESS:                             Which most of the sign-off dates                                         j 24       ;
]hasinbishand-21 a
are in 1978.                               The procedure that was in effect and governing                                                                     l 25       j
e THE WITNESS:
                                                                                -- - . _ _ _ . - . _ . . _ . _    __._m______   _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ -__  _    ___
What I have in my hand --
22 j
I
-- the traveler for Weld No. 51.
23 l
1 THE WITNESS:
Which most of the sign-off dates j
24 are in 1978.
The procedure that was in effect and governing l
25 j
__._m______


35 1 i that at that time was ORP       procedure, which was a Brown &
35 1
2 l
that at that time was ORP procedure, which was a Brown &
Root procedure. That's where the chits are referenced.
i 2
3                     As I told you, I identified the fadt that there d     was missing hold points on this old documentation.             That's 5    why{           }whowasbasicallyresponsibleastheBrown 6     & Root QC Group u
l Root procedure.
                                                            ]toreviewitandto 7     attempt to clear up what hold points he could based on that 8     procedurek 9                     Now, any'vork that was performed after the
That's where the chits are referenced.
                                                                    ~
3 As I told you, I identified the fadt that there d
10     transfer, that's another item.         When
was missing hold points on this old documentation.
                                                                          } attached 11     the new traveler, we identified --
That's why{
12                                } That new traveler would be Pages 13     1 and 2 of that package?           ,
}whowasbasicallyresponsibleastheBrown 5
14                     THE WITNESS:     Yeah, Pages 1 and 2.       We 15 referenced the new procedure that the work would be performed 16     by now.
6
17                     The other pages, the following pages, Page 18     3, 4 and 5, are basically the supporting documentation to 39     complete this traveler.
& Root QC Group
                                                          ?
]toreviewitandto u
                                                                                          " ~ ~ '
7 attempt to clear up what hold points he could based on that procedurek 8
          ;to -   8Y MR. GRIFFIN: -   .
9 Now, any'vork that was performed after the 10 transfer, that's another item.
                                                --              - .67 .- .  .~,..,-  ..
When
21             0       Are those supporting documents referented in 22 the procedure?
~
23 A.     In the QI-QP?
} attached 11 the new traveler, we identified --
24 g       Yes.
} That new traveler would be Pages 12 13 1 and 2 of that package?
A.     No, I don't believe so.         It's a method of 25   l
14 THE WITNESS:
Yeah, Pages 1 and 2.
We 15 referenced the new procedure that the work would be performed 16 by now.
17 The other pages, the following pages, Page 18 3, 4 and 5, are basically the supporting documentation to 39 complete this traveler.
?
. ~,.., -
" ~ ~ '
;to -
8Y MR. GRIFFIN: -
-.67 21 0
Are those supporting documents referented in the procedure?
22 A.
In the QI-QP?
23 24 g
Yes.
A.
No, I don't believe so.
It's a method of 25 l


1 1
1 1
36 1         being able to support.-
36 1
2     l           0       That takes us back to where we were ten minutes 1
being able to support.-
3          ago. I understand what you all were doing.
2 l
d                           I go't real confused there for a little while, i
0 That takes us back to where we were ten minutes 3
5         because I thought you said that there were procedures in 6         existence that called for this step to be taken where you               4 i
ago.
7         would put the chits in with the travelers.
I understand what you all were doing.
q 8                   A.       No. Basically, what I was saying to you is 9         in 1978 the procedure that was in effect was the Brown &                 !
d I go't real confused there for a little while, i
10           Root ASME procedure, which identified the chits.
5 because I thought you said that there were procedures in 6
11 Now, it's fairly obvious that the inspectors 12 at that time -- I wasn't here and can't say what happened, 13           but-they could use the chits to verify.
existence that called for this step to be taken where you 4
14                   O       Tell me if I am wrong, but I think you are 15 drawing a conclusion that is unsupported by -- unless you 16           are .. interpreting     some procedure that I have not had access       i 17           to.
7 would put the chits in with the travelers.
I understand the reasoning of using the chits, 18       .
q 8
                                                                  .f.
A.
but I don't accept, unless you can explain further, I don't 19                                          .          ?
No.
Basically, what I was saying to you is 9
in 1978 the procedure that was in effect was the Brown &
10 Root ASME procedure, which identified the chits.
11 Now, it's fairly obvious that the inspectors at that time -- I wasn't here and can't say what happened, 12 13 but-they could use the chits to verify.
14 O
Tell me if I am wrong, but I think you are drawing a conclusion that is unsupported by -- unless you 15 i
16 are.. interpreting some procedure that I have not had access 17 to.
I understand the reasoning of using the chits, 18
.f.
19 but I don't accept, unless you can explain further, I don't
?
2'O -
2'O -
iccept where the' procedures substantiate. t> hat-that.~is, wha.t -''
iccept where the' procedures substantiate. t> hat-that.~is, wha.t -''
21 is to be done or that is an approved method of having these 22      ,
is to be done or that is an approved method of having these 21 inspectors come in and fill in the blanks.
inspectors come in               and fill in the blanks.
22 I
I I want to make it just that simple.
I want to make it just that simple.
23     !
23 A.
24 A.     Okay.
Okay.
25 I
24 25 O
O      But it is your opinion that it is an approved I
But it is your opinion that it is an approved I
l
I l


.....a l                                                                                                     37' I         method?
.....a l
I                                                                                             '
37' I
2    ;                      A-           No. In 1978 the chits could be used as.
method?
i-I 3     !
I 2
supporting, based on the note that I read to you'but of the a           procedure.                                                                     ,
A-No.
5                             0           It is my interpretation that the chits were 6           requests for inspections.
In 1978 the chits could be used as.
7                           A           That's correct.
i-I 3
g                             4         And that the sign-off of those chits by a QC 9           inspector provided the craft person with a record that'would 10           authorize him to proceed.
supporting, based on the note that I read to you'but of the a
11 A           That's correct.
procedure.
0           But was not considered at that time,'nor since, 12 13 as a quality control record, which indicated that the quality 14 control inspector was signing off on a QC document that this hold point had been met; that it was used by construction 15 for their purposes to proceed, and that other documents were 16 required by a procedure, mainly the inspection traveler, 17 gg            as the quality control document.                                           ,
5 0
              ),
It is my interpretation that the chits were 6
Are we in agreement on that?
requests for inspections.
  .. . . . .  ..  ,   . .          .  ". ' A       .
7 A
                                                        .I can see your point, yes.                 r .-  .  .~ , ;. ,
That's correct.
21 0           Okay, because I don' t think wa need to; belabor the point of your all's decision to try to reference these 22   ;
g 4
ld chits as a valid way of completing the forms.                                   I think 23 we all have achieved an understanding of that.
And that the sign-off of those chits by a QC 9
inspector provided the craft person with a record that'would 10 authorize him to proceed.
A That's correct.
11 0
But was not considered at that time,'nor since, 12 as a quality control record, which indicated that the quality 13 control inspector was signing off on a QC document that this 14 hold point had been met; that it was used by construction 15 for their purposes to proceed, and that other documents were 16 required by a procedure, mainly the inspection traveler, 17 as the quality control document.
gg Are we in agreement on that?
),
". ' A
.I can see your point, yes.
r
.~, ;.,
0 Okay, because I don' t think wa need to; belabor 21 the point of your all's decision to try to reference these 22 ld chits as a valid way of completing the forms.
I think 23 we all have achieved an understanding of that.
3 It is probably purposeless for US to debate, i
3 It is probably purposeless for US to debate, i
                                                .c       ,..      .
.c


38 1       b2cause you are hcving to go back in tima to reference a
38 1
                                                                                                #~~       '
b2cause you are hcving to go back in tima to reference a
2       procedure before you even worked here.
#~~
3               A.         That's correct.                                  ** .
2 procedure before you even worked here.
A                 g         And it would be pointless for me to argue.some 5         opposite position.         That is not our purpose'here, anyway.
3 A.
6                           If.you don't mind, do you have any more?                       You 7         were doing what I call a narrative there that referenced 8         what you knew as to the events leading up to the sign-off 9         of these travelers?
That's correct.
10                             Did I stop you, or do you have more in relation 11           to that narrative?
A g
12                            g     .        ) My notes indicat'e'he wasn't quite 13           finished. ,
And it would be pointless for me to argue.some 5
                                                    .]hadtakenyouthrough{                   } conversation 14           with[*
opposite position.
15 16 17       l 18        .
That is not our purpose'here, anyway.
I am not sure!                     '
6 If.you don't mind, do you have any more?
had finished to the
You 7
_    4.. . ,  ..-.s.   ,-...-'....... ,',              .,
were doing what I call a narrative there that referenced 8
19           point whe,re,'they actually sat down to do this work.
what you knew as to the events leading up to the sign-off 9
t 20            3Y MR7 GRIFEIN. .       .        ,-.                    ..  . . . .    ,~ , ;.,   .
of these travelers?
21
10 Did I stop you, or do you have more in relation 11 to that narrative?
                                .g         You are doing just fine.               If there is pore 22      i that you know about, we could speed things up if you could 1
g
23 tell me what your involvement, what you heard.                       What I need l                                                                                                  J 24 to know about is people walking and talking, what they'said,                                 I i
) My notes indicat'e'he wasn't quite 12 13 finished.
25           what you heard.
.]hadtakenyouthrough{
L                                                                                                   ,
} conversation 14 with[*
i l
15 16 17 l
I                                                                                                     !
I am not sure!
4
had finished to the 18 4..
..-.s.
19 point whe,re,'they actually sat down to do this work.
t 3Y MR7 GRIFEIN..
,~, ;.,
20 21
.g You are doing just fine.
If there is pore that you know about, we could speed things up if you could 22 i
1 l
tell me what your involvement, what you heard.
What I need 23 J
to know about is people walking and talking, what they'said, I
24 i
25 what you heard.
L i
I 4


39 l-                                                   .*arsay.
39 l-
2     !                        MR. GRIFFIN:         Iamonlygoingtoask~himwhat
.*arsay.
                                                                                                      ~'
Iamonlygoingtoask~himwhat 2
3           he heard and what he saw.                                                       -
MR. GRIFFIN:
d                                                   The former is hearsay; the latter 5             is not.
3 he heard and what he saw.
6                               IEE WITNESS:         I guess we are at the point where 7
~'
d The former is hearsay; the latter 5
is not.
6 IEE WITNESS:
I guess we are at the point where 7
8 9
8 9
10          I                                                               There seemed to be L
I There seemed to be 10 L
11             confusion.                                                                     )
11 confusion.
12             BY MR. GRIFFIN:                                                 ___ _
)
13                     O         Are we talking about 14 15                     A 16                     4                   too?
12 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
17                     A         Appeared to be.
13 O
18                     0         Okay.                                               ,
Are we talking about 14 15 A
                                                        . . . ~ . . . , . . . . , , , , - . < . . . _ . . . .
16 4
19                      A                      seemed to be a little more vocal.
too?
2'0 -         i recei'ved a phone call from"                                   to come.on',up,               .I ' ~ ~
17 A
21 I
Appeared to be.
went u'p.                                                                             I' 22 23       l u       .
18 0
25 I don't know whether it had been explained l
Okay.
... ~...,....,,,, -. <... _....
seemed to be a little more vocal.
19 A
2'0 -
i recei'ved a phone call from" to come.on',up,
.I ' ~ ~
I 21 went u'p.
I' 22 23 l
u 25 I don't know whether it had been explained l


                                                                                                                                                  }
}
40 1         fully to them or what their basic problem was.
40 1
                          '2                                   I suggested to them at that time I could see 3       where possibly the statement should be made, t                                                                                     -
fully to them or what their basic problem was.
5 l
'2 I suggested to them at that time I could see 3
I 6                     D           That was your recommendation?
where possibly the statement should be made, t
7                     A-           It was af
5 I
* 8                                             .
6 D
9 10 11
That was your recommendation?
                '                                                                                                                ~
7 A-It was af 8
12
9 10 11 12
                    - 13                                       -In my opinion, that would be a way to identify la         what they were actually doing so it would not be interpreted 15 16                                   That was only a 17                     0             That was your'                         Do you have any 18       . direct knowledge that                                 , offered that,same suggestion
~
                                                                                            ..-s   - . . . . . . . . .      ,, ,
- 13
19           to them?
-In my opinion, that would be a way to identify la what they were actually doing so it would not be interpreted 15 16 That was only a 17 0
                                              .. g        .
That was your' Do you have any 18
1.go.not.   -  ~'*              . -m-              .~ , ;. , .    -
. direct knowledge that
21                       0     ,
, offered that,same suggestion
Do you know of your own personal knowl:tdge 22 that I     'in fact just told 23 24 23      ;
..-s 19 to them?
Was'that             instruction?
-m-
i
.~, ;.,.
1.go.not.
.. g
~ '
* 21 0
Do you know of your own personal knowl:tdge that I
'in fact just told 22 23 24 Was'that instruction?
23 i


41 1                 A       -
41 1
had asked them to -- based on the information 2
A had asked them to -- based on the information 2
3         yes.                                                             -
3 yes.
d                   4         So the end result would have been I
d 4
7       l           A         I hope not.
So the end result would have been I
8                   G         Well, do you have any further information as 9           to what       instructions entailed, other thanI 10 11                   A         No.
7 l
12                   O         Maybe I have carried this too far.             You said 13           you were present for at least a portion of 6 I
A I hope not.
14 15                           .
8 G
Was it your understanding in that portion of r-16           the instructions that you heard 17 18 A         That may have been a possible area of confusion l                                 .; ~ . . , --
Well, do you have any further information as 9
                                                              -% - . ~ . . . . . . . ..  ..
to what instructions entailed, other thanI 10 11 A
19                                      that based on the information               had 2o presed, 2i            ampm]                                                               e 22                    S         So at that point, 22       !
No.
            ,1  6_
12 O
i l
Maybe I have carried this too far.
i d
You said 13 you were present for at least a portion of 6 14 15 Was it your understanding in that portion of r-16 the instructions that you heard 17 A
That may have been a possible area of confusion 18 l
.; ~..,
-. ~.........
that based on the information had 19
: presed, 2o ampm]
e 2i S
So at that point, 22 22
,6_
,1 i
l i
d
* f
* f


42 1                       A             To my knowledge.
42 1
2                       (L             Did you hear any reference by ,                           as 3           to 5                                                                                                                   l 6     1 7            ..              y, We are referencing, for the record,                 M 8                                                                                                                 '
A To my knowledge.
exam 6 10      l                               Many of these -- I am just telling you, based 11             on my reading 12 13 14                                                           wc:21d observe that you could r
2 (L
15 not possibly have learned that from a review                                                       ,
Did you hear any reference by,
16                                                                         I suggest that may have 17 beentrue,butyoucouldnothavelearnedh                               -
as 3
j
to 5
6 1
y, We are referencing, for the record, M 7
8
. exam 6 l
Many of these -- I am just telling you, based 10 11 on my reading 12 13 14 wc:21d observe that you could r
15 not possibly have learned that from a review 16 I suggest that may have beentrue,butyoucouldnothavelearnedh j
17
(
(
18
18
                                                              ...      ...    . . - ~ - . . . . . . . .  .
.. - ~ -........
19                                       MR. GRIFFIN:     I don't know how I --
19 MR. GRIFFIN:
                              .  ..                                                                                              )
I don't know how I --
)
0
0
                                                                  ~'As they exist- today. .             .~.,.     .--    -
~'As they exist-today..
21                                 .
.~.,.
MR. GRIFFIN:     I don't know how I absorbep this, 22             but in looking at these, I have compared some of the signa-23             tures of the inspectors that were here back in 1978, and 24 I have had the benefit of talking to some of those people.
21 MR. GRIFFIN:
25     ,
I don't know how I absorbep this, 22 but in looking at these, I have compared some of the signa-23 tures of the inspectors that were here back in 1978, and 24 I have had the benefit of talking to some of those people.
There is an indication, although it does not state this on
25 There is an indication, although it does not state this on
                                    ,. .    .g.    ,        .      . . . .  .        .
.g.


43 I     the travelers, as                     has pointed out, that other
43 I
                                                                                                ' ~
the travelers, as has pointed out, that other
2       people were making these entries.                                                    .
' ~
3                     THE WITNESS:         Other people 7                         ''.
2 people were making these entries.
4      BY MR. GRIFFIN:                                                           .
3 THE WITNESS:
5               0     Probably millwrights.
Other people 7 4
6 7    !                                      )
BY MR. GRIFFIN:
8                                           ut         signature and .I think 9       this is 10 11      'k A. I wasn't aware of that.                 A wouldn't.have an'y 12                                                ,
5 0
13       knowledge of that.                                     _    ._..__ _
Probably millwrights.
14 I can see what you are showing me M L.-
6
15 16 17   l 18 P
)
0*     So it would appear that 19
7 8
                                              ,  - . .                  .. ..                    , ~ , . . , . ..
ut signature and.I think 9
this is 10
'k 11 12 A.
I wasn't aware of that.
A wouldn't.have an'y 13 knowledge of that.
I can see what you are showing me M 14 L.-
15 16 17 l
18 P
0*
So it would appear that 19
, ~,..,...
yn
yn
                          ' A'     Yeah, it appears that way.                                           L 21                   ,
' A' Yeah, it appears that way.
22   i           0     Do you know if       I laisodidthat?
L 21 22 i
23   l           A. I would have to see.
0 Do you know if laisodidthat?
          ;g                 0     Well, I am not asking you to research it now.
I 23 l
A.
I would have to see.
;g 0
Well, I am not asking you to research it now.
l 25 I am just saying, at this time do you have any knowledge l
l 25 I am just saying, at this time do you have any knowledge l
hp
hp


  .                                                                                                      i 44 1       that he did the same thing?
i 44 1
2                 A. No.
that he did the same thing?
3                 G   Now, back to my original question.''During 4       that portion of                                                             ,
2 A.
6                                                           _
No.
7                 A   Or the date?
3 G
8                 G   Yes,{
Now, back to my original question.''During 4
9                                          ] I am just asking you, did 10         you hear any reference --
that portion of 6
11                   L   My recollection from the conversation, M 12 13 14 15                   0   You didn't hear, okay.
7 A
16                   A. Again, it was not my responsibility.
Or the date?
17                   0   I understand that.
8 G
                                                    'You were clear, were you not, 18     .
Yes,{
                                              .. ~ . . . .  ..-%  -.&. . . . . . . .
] I am just asking you, did 9
10 you hear any reference --
11 L
My recollection from the conversation, M 12 13 14 15 0
You didn't hear, okay.
16 A.
Again, it was not my responsibility.
17 0
I understand that.
, 'You were clear, were you not, 18
.. ~....
19
19
                                                                                                    ~ - -
~ - -
21
THE WITNESS:
                              ~
Yeah.
THE WITNESS:     Yeah.                           1 22         BY MR. GRIFFIN:
1
23   l                 0   But while you were present, he made no 2d 2,
~
              .n i
21 22 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
i
23 l
                        +
0 But while you were present, he made no 2d 2,.n i
D
i D
+


45 1                     A         He may have, but not to my knowledge.
45 1
2   i                 G         Okay. Were you h.nvolved in any other' events 3         or -- well, I know you were.
A He may have, but not to my knowledge.
4                                Whatothereventsfollowing[
2 i
L
G Okay.
                                                                                                                    .i 7                     A.       Well, you've got to ask me that again.                     I guess 8         I lost you somewhere.             Other than --
Were you h.nvolved in any other' events 3
9                     G         We will call your narrative to a close, and 10         maybe I can help you along here by jogging your memory.
or -- well, I know you were.
11                     A         My narrative?
Whatothereventsfollowing[
12                     O         Yes.
4 L
13                     A         I'm trying to give you the events as I recall 14         them.       I hope you don't consider it a narrative.
.i 7
15                     O         Well, I don't mean that as a bad thing.                       I           )
A.
16          appreciate your helping me out and' moving along and telling 17    !    me what you know because that's what I would hope each witness i
Well, you've got to ask me that again.
18         .would do.                                                           ,
I guess 8
                                                            . . ~... . .. . m -.. . . . . . .
I lost you somewhere.
19                      A*       I'll do my best.
Other than --
                                                                        ?
9 G
                                                                                                ~                ""
We will call your narrative to a close, and 10 maybe I can help you along here by jogging your memory.
                                                              ~~-                - * * -    -
11 A
My narrative?
12 O
Yes.
13 A
I'm trying to give you the events as I recall 14 them.
I hope you don't consider it a narrative.
)
15 O
Well, I don't mean that as a bad thing.
I appreciate your helping me out and' moving along and telling 16 me what you know because that's what I would hope each witness 17 i
18
.would do.
.. ~....... m A*
I'll do my best.
19
?
~
2"O *
2"O *
                                *O       -
*O Thank you.
Thank you.                                  .
~~-
                                ~
n testimony stated that
n     testimony stated that 21                           ,
~
22     !
21 22 23 i
23                                                                                             .
24 25 l
i 24 25       l testimony further says that'
testimony further says that'


46 1
46 1
1 2 l 3
1 2
4 5                                   I am telling you that's what                 said. 'Did 6                           nyey to you this same understanding when he con-7         tacted you about their concerns?
l 3
8                       A.         As I recall we were, again, talking about some
4 5
                                                                                              ~
I am telling you that's what said. 'Did 6
9         confusion on it.               And, again, as I suggested, if the chits 10         were technically correct and matched what they did, they 11 could make the late entry.
nyey to you this same understanding when he con-7 tacted you about their concerns?
12 I wouldn'.t really have any knowledge as -- I!didn't 13          reviewanythingwith[                                                             ]There ja          was confusion at the time.               ,
8 A.
15
As I recall we were, again, talking about some
                                                                                                          -]
~
16                         G         I understand. I g }in % testimony said 17      (
9 confusion on it.
l 18     .
And, again, as I suggested, if the chits 10 were technically correct and matched what they did, they 11 could make the late entry.
19                                                               '
I wouldn'.t really have any knowledge as -- I!didn't 12 reviewanythingwith[
I                       -
]There 13 was confusion at the time.
        , , . .e                          . [emamanag-. .                                                     ...----
ja
: a.                                                                 ..
-]
                                ~
15 16 G
O         Yes. That's the way it is described ip her 21                             ,
I understand. I g }in % testimony said
22          testimony, I believe. {
(
17 l
18 19 I
. [emamanag-..
.e a.
O Yes.
That's the way it is described ip her
~
21 testimony, I believe. {
22 l
,]Ibelieve.
23 l
23 l
l
A.
                                                          ,]Ibelieve.                                      .
Who would that be?
A.        Who would that be?
l 24 0
24   l 0         I believe in the transcrip- it says W" 25                                                                                         -
I believe in the transcrip-it says W" 25 l
l l
l i
i
s 4
    .'                    s                       ..        ,      ,
1
4                                       ,
* 1


  ~
~
47 1               A.
47 1
I 2
A.
l                                    ]isnota' 3                       MR. GRIFFIN:   Okay.
I l
4         BY MR. GRIFFIN:                                     .
]isnota' 2
                                                                              ~
3 MR. GRIFFIN:
5               O     Do you have any recollection of 6
Okay.
7                               ,
4 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
8                A      Inj                                             I made 9         many --I                                                   yes.
~
L 10                 0     Did you hear' Do you have any recollection of thatf
5 O
                                                                                      ~
Do you have any recollection of 6
                                                                                                  ~~
7 Inj I made 8
11 12                 A     I knew       was concerned.     lwas confuse'd.
A 9
13               seemed to be agitated. Yes.
many --I yes.
14                   O     At this point in time had you heard --
L 10 0
15                 A     Confused by                                       [
Did you hear'
16                 0     Okay. At this point in time, had you heard 17 18 19 yn .
~
21 A     I think some people did talk toi   f 22
11 Do you have any recollection of thatf
                      ,-'                                  yes.
~~
23 24                   0     Do you know who talked to him?
12 A
25     ;            A     Not specifically. I can't recall exactly, l
I knew was concerned.
i I
lwas confuse'd.
l                                                                                                       l l                                                                                                      :
13 seemed to be agitated.
I
Yes.
14 O
At this point in time had you heard --
15 A
Confused by
[
16 0
Okay.
At this point in time, had you heard 17 18 19
.yn.
21 f
22 A
I think some people did talk toi 23 yes.
24 0
Do you know who talked to him?
25 A
Not specifically.
I can't recall exactly, l
i l
l I


J 48 1       but again, going back to what I told you before, I suggested 2       at the time that the original inspectors be brought i.n that                     R 3       had done this work, because they would have a muc'h better l
J 48 1
4     ' understanding of the process and methods of what they possibly i
but again, going back to what I told you before, I suggested 2
1 5       did or didn't do.
at the time that the original inspectors be brought i.n that R
6               G       But they didn't take your suggestion?                             ,
3 had done this work, because they would have a muc'h better l
i 7               A       They basically said that they weren't available, a                       They may_ have went .back and talked to-           ,
4
9       them. The other inspectors may have went back and talked 10         to them. I can't --
' understanding of the process and methods of what they possibly i
11                 Q.     Do you know if           -]wasconsultedprior 12 13 14                 A       I couldn't testify to that. no, whether it 15         was before or after or during.
1 5
16                 0       Were you in thisf   a 17 18
did or didn't do.
                                                        . s ~.. .
6 G
19                                    Didyouhear(       ,make any statement
But they didn't take your suggestion?
    ' ' ~ "
i 7
* to tha't effect7*    *      -  " ' '          ~ ~~ -~     - ~ ;.  .-
A They basically said that they weren't available, a
They may_ have went.back and talked to-9 them.
The other inspectors may have went back and talked 10 to them. I can't --
11 Q.
Do you know if
-]wasconsultedprior 12 13 14 A
I couldn't testify to that. no, whether it 15 was before or after or during.
16 0
Were you in thisf a
17 18
. s ~...
Didyouhear(
,make any statement 19
~ ~~ -~
2o ~
2o ~
21                "A   ,    Idon'tremember(
to tha't effect7*
22 I assumed that they probably would.
- ~ ;.
23     ,
' ' ~ "
I might point out that' l                                                                               ,
"A Idon'tremember(
24         testimony in the ASLB proceeding contradicts                               ,
21 I assumed that they probably would.
25     I in substantial respects on this point, and perhaps                               ,s l                                                                                       t
22 23 I might point out that' l
    .  =
24 testimony in the ASLB proceeding contradicts 25 I in substantial respects on this point, and perhaps
1
,s l
t
=


49 1                not                  . recalls whatever it was that --
49
I MR. GR$FFIN:   Mo're clearly?
. recalls whatever it was that --
2l      -
1 not I
3
MR. GR$FFIN:
                                                          ; Yes.
Mo're clearly?
                                            ~
2 l 3
4                                 MR. GRIFFIN:   Okay.     ,            ,
; Yes.
5                 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
~
What I am doing here,           is I am following --
4 MR. GRIFFIN:
6                          0 I
Okay.
7                         A.     When you said that, I thought you said you                   I 8
5 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
were referring to                         ,
6 0
9                        0       I am. As a matter of fact, in my line of testimony.
What I am doing here, is I am following --
to                 questioning here, I am following 11                  If it is incorrect.... I am following it, but I am asking 12 youquestionsofwhatyousawandheard,andifyoudidn}t 13 see or hear, just say, "I didn't hear that," or, "I didn't l
7 A.
14 see that," or, "I don't know about that."
When you said that, I thought you said you I
A.     Yes, sir.                                                   l 15 16 O       Did you hear any statements in this same area-were talking, did you hear 37                 ofwhereverf 18                anystatementsby{
8 were referring to 9
19 yg 2,
0 I am.
As a matter of fact, in my line of testimony.
to questioning here, I am following If it is incorrect....
I am following it, but I am asking 11 youquestionsofwhatyousawandheard,andifyoudidn}t 12 see or hear, just say, "I didn't hear that," or, "I didn't 13 see that," or, "I don't know about that."
14 A.
Yes, sir.
15 O
Did you hear any statements in this same area-16 ofwhereverf were talking, did you hear 37 anystatementsby{
18 19 yg 2,
Were you present?
Were you present?
22 A.     Wait a minute. What are you asking me?
22 A.
23 O     I am asking you were you present when _
Wait a minute.
What are you asking me?
23 O
I am asking you were you present when _
24
24
                                                                                    ~
~
23           :                                                        -
23 e
e e e s         se<
e e s se<


                                                                                                                      -- - 1 50           l 1                   A.     Yeah.
-- - 1 50 1
                                                                                                  ~
A.
l 2                                                                           I guess I 3       still don't understand your question.
Yeah.
l 4                   g       Apparently, no work had been done.at this point, 5       and               claims ini       testimony that s
~
l 2
I guess I 3
still don't understand your question.
4 g
Apparently, no work had been done.at this point, 5
and claims ini testimony that s
8 9
8 9
10 11 My question to you is were you present when made such a statement 12
10 My question to you is were you present when 11
{
{
13 14 If he heard it.                                                 f MR. GRIFFIN:     If he didn't hear it, his answer 15 16 should be, "No,"         If he did hear it --
made such a statement 12 13 If he heard it.
17                          THE WITNESS:     I don't recall.             I can remember 18    . that there was some rather loud discussions                       at different
f 14 MR. GRIFFIN:
                                                                      - . , - > ~ . . . - . . . , , .
If he didn't hear it, his answer 15 16 should be, "No,"
19 times, but i can't recall exactly what was said.
If he did hear it --
                                                                      ?
THE WITNESS:
                                            -            --                  -      .- .-      .~ ,.., . . . . ~ ~
I don't recall.
8Y MR. GRIFFIN            -                                          .
I can remember 17
. that there was some rather loud discussions at different 18
-., - > ~... -...,,.
times, but i can't recall exactly what was said.
19
?
.~,..,.... ~ ~
20 -
20 -
21
8Y MR. GRIFFIN Loud discussions betweenf
                                  *G  .
}
Loud discussions betweenf-                                              }
*G 21 A.
A.     Yes.
Yes.
22 I
22 I
23                    @      Were you present when i
Were you present when 23 i
2t 2,
2t
                    ;ummmmmmmmmmuusumunus:
;ummmmmmmmmmuusumunus:
                              +;                     ,      ,
2,
+;


1 Were you in the same work area?
Were you in the same work area?
A     I came into the area, yes.
1 2 i A
2 i 3l                        0      Do you know when they completed their, work?
I came into the area, yes.
d                         A       Date-wise?   The date?
Do you know when they completed their, work?
D Was it the same evening, the same night?.
3 l 0
3 A       No. As I recall it, this sequence of events 6
d A
7
Date-wise?
                    '    was a couple of days.,
The date?
8                         0       Were you --
Was it the same evening, the same night?.
9                         A       I talked to       and%saiditwasbogging 10 dowm, that it was probably going to be longer, and then he 11 came back and told me it was complete and he was going to It seemed to have cleared up. :-
3 D
12              turn it all over to us.
A No.
g      After the work was complete or during this 13 meeting when            told you that it had been finished and that 14 it was coming to you, did         make any reference 15 16 17 ja                          A     Iassumegwasstillofamindthatitwas  '
As I recall it, this sequence of events 6
                                        ~
was a couple of days.,
0  -
7 8
                                                  .B.utyoudon,'t.havea$yrecol_lectionof{g 20 mentioning it?
0 Were you --
21 A
and%saiditwasbogging 9
He didn't give me any specific details saying 22     l J
A I talked to dowm, that it was probably going to be longer, and then he 10 came back and told me it was complete and he was going to 11 It seemed to have cleared up.
22
turn it all over to us.
* 0      Okay.
12 After the work was complete or during this g
24 A      Basically,S,,toldme 25 l
13 told you that it had been finished and that meeting when 14 it was coming to you, did make any reference 15 16 17 Iassumegwasstillofamindthatitwas A
ja
.B.utyoudon,'t.havea$yrecol_lectionof{g,,,.
~
0 20 mentioning it?
21 He didn't give me any specific details saying A
J 22 l
22 0
Okay.
24 Basically,S,,toldme A
l 25


I                                                     and at that point in 2 . time it was going to be transferred over to us.                                   -
I and at that point in 2
I 3
. time it was going to be transferred over to us.
I O      Let me ask you an all-encompassing luestion 4     here. At any time from the time that these people completed 5     their work until this work was transferred to your responsi-6     bility, didI e
I O
9 10               A           never made a statement that anything was 11     ever a problem.                                                                                 f 12               O       Nothing to that effect?                                             _.
Let me ask you an all-encompassing luestion 3
13               A       No.
I 4
14               0       Did you ever hear any reference by anybody 15 following the work performed I 16                                                  j did you ever hear any 17    reference thatf 18
here.
                                                    ... ~... ,1Did you
At any time from the time that these people completed 5
                                                              . . .  , . - ever
their work until this work was transferred to your responsi-6 bility, didI e
                                                                            . . . . .hear. . . . any state-19 ments or rumors or anythin'g to that effect?
9 10 A
                                                                  ?
never made a statement that anything was 11 ever a problem.
                              ;* x                                                                               ..---- 1 g..    :    .
f 12 O
                                      .g                                         .. . . .        . , . ...
Nothing to that effect?
21            'O       Yes.                                                         I 22 A       No. Again, I still believe that they were 23 confused about what really was going on, what they really --
13 A
24     you know.
No.
2s i!
14 0
Did you ever hear any reference by anybody I
15 following the work performed did you ever hear any 16 j
reference thatf 17
... ~...,1Did you ever hear any state-18 ments or rumors or anythin'g to that effect?
19
?
;* x
.g g..
'O Yes.
I 21 A
No.
Again, I still believe that they were 22 confused about what really was going on, what they really --
23 24 you know.
2s i


1                                                          ]
]
l 2 ;             O         I want right now to touch on some steps that 3        I believe                                jtook followin's 4
1 l
0                                                         .
2 ;
6              .1       As.specified in the new procedure.
O I want right now to touch on some steps that jtook followin's 3
7               0         Yes.
I believe 4
8 I must observe that this is beyond 9       what you indicated the subject matter of this interview was.
0 6
10                         MR. GRIFFIN:     I don't think I stated on the record what the subject matter was.         I may have stated to 11 you_previously.                                                   :
.1 As.specified in the new procedure.
12 You did, indeed, state to me pre-3 14 viously that the subject matter dealt with!
7 0
15 MR. GRIFFIN:                   the NRC has needs 16 17 that sometimes extend beyond what you and I may have discussed la
Yes.
                  , informally on some preceding date.                 ,
I must observe that this is beyond 8
                                                      ..      -~ - *- . . . . . . , , .    -
9 what you indicated the subject matter of this interview was.
It's not my intention to deceive you, and I 39
10 MR. GRIFFIN:
                                                                                ~
I don't think I stated on the 11 record what the subject matter was.
2"O
I may have stated to 12 you_previously.
            -      wil-1 bb glad to "give you.the subject matter, -the arep, that""'
You did, indeed, state to me pre-3 viously that the subject matter dealt with!
21 I hope'to go into, and if you want to have a break and dis-cuss that with your client --
14 15 MR. GRIFFIN:
22 I would appreciate that very much.
the NRC has needs 16 that sometimes extend beyond what you and I may have discussed 17
23 THE WITNESS:     My personal representative.
, informally on some preceding date.
24 25 MR. GRIFFIN:     Yes.
la
-~ - *-
It's not my intention to deceive you, and I 39 wil-1 bb glad to "give you.the subject matter, -the arep, that""'
~
2"O I hope'to go into, and if you want to have a break and dis-21 cuss that with your client --
22 23 I would appreciate that very much.
THE WITNESS:
My personal representative.
24 MR. GRIFFIN:
Yes.
25 l
l l
l l
l l
l
:~                           ,
:~


um 1                                                   You are the client.             I am your i*'  '
um 1
2         representative.
You are the client.
3   1                           MR. GRIFFIN:       What I plan to go into, 4        isthattherewasaperiod{
I am your i*'
6-7                                 Once again, B                                               There was a problem (I'm going to 9         characterize it that way)'
2 representative.
10 11 12                                 I just want to explore the difficulties that 13         his group had during the short period of time in there.
3 1
14                                 Are you familiar with that?
MR. GRIFFIN:
13 No, I am not.           It might be useful 16         topointoutthat(                             ! informed me yesterday that 17         the activity, very shortly after the events we have discussed.
What I plan to go into, isthattherewasaperiod{
18       [    .
4 6-7 Once again, B
                                                                    .. - . . ~ - * - . . . . . . .   , , . -
There was a problem (I'm going to 9
characterize it that way)'
10 11 12 I just want to explore the difficulties that 13 his group had during the short period of time in there.
14 Are you familiar with that?
13 No, I am not.
It might be useful 16 topointoutthat(
! informed me yesterday that 17 the activity, very shortly after the events we have discussed.
[
18
.. -.. ~ - * -.......
THE WITNESS:
THE WITNESS:
That's correct.
+
19
19
                                  +                            That's correct.
~.
3        ..
.And his invol.venent;. terpr}at;ed, --
                        . ~.          .                    .And his invol.venent;. terpr}at;ed, --
3 MR. GRIFFIN:
21 MR. GRIFFIN:         Okay.     I still, even thopgh his 22 answers may be brief and we may not be on that point but i
Okay.
1 23   l       just a few minutes, I still feel I need to explore it.
I still, even thopgh his 21 answers may be brief and we may not be on that point but 22 i
24
1 23 l
            !                                            . Since we have not had an oppor-25 l      tunity,                       and I, to discuss this, I would like e
just a few minutes, I still feel I need to explore it.
. Since we have not had an oppor-24 l
25
: tunity, and I, to discuss this, I would like e


L_             . . .-. _ nm .                   _ . . .        _ . . . _ .          -%_,_.                          -
L_
bb 1   to have a short recess.
...-. _ nm.
2   BY MR. GRIFFIN:
bb 1
3           0       E , are you familiar with what I'am going 4   to ask you about?                                                         ,
to have a short recess.
5           A.       No, sir.
2 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
6             0 7
3 0
1 l
E, are you familiar with what I'am going 4
8 9
to ask you about?
10 l'
5 A.
11                        They,{
No, sir.
so we have an extenuation of the same problem.                                         R-12 13               A.       The same problem continuing?
6 0
14               0       Yes,
7 1
                                                                                                                              )
l 8
15                                                                                                 ;
9 10 They,{
16 If you are not the one that I need to talk 17 to, we should be able to find that out quickly enough, but                                           ,
11 so we have an extenuation of the same problem.
I 18     if you have any knowledge on that, I need it.
R-12 13 A.
                          - .                            ..g ...
The same problem continuing?
T'o give you the bottom line,
14 0
                                          ~
: Yes,
19
)
  .. ...        gnl 21 22 23
15 If you are not the one that I need to talk 16 to, we should be able to find that out quickly enough, but 17 18 if you have any knowledge on that, I need it.
                        \
..g T'o give you the bottom line,
24                                                           1 25 They had c: eated -- I will characterize it 1
~
19 gnl 21 22 23
\\
1 24 They had c: eated -- I will characterize it 25


i 1
i 1
2                                                                                                                             l d               A.       Could you give me the names of the individuals?
l 2
d A.
Could you give me the names of the individuals?
{
is already aware of them.
is already aware of them.
5               O         Sure.
5 O
{
Sure.
6 Ihaveinterviewed{
Ihaveinterviewed{
1                      Lm MR. GRIFFIN: -
6 1
8 9     BY MR. GRIFFIN:
Lm 8
i 10               0         Maybe we can solve this by just saying are 11      you familiar with anything surrounding the events of their 12     work 13               A         Yes.
MR. GRIFFIN:
14                                        That was before.       I think, 15 Mr. Griffin, you have the sequence out of order.
9 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
16                           MR. GRIFFIN: Do I?
i 10 0
17 Yes.
Maybe we can solve this by just saying are you familiar with anything surrounding the events of their 11 12 work 13 A
18                           THE WITNESS:   What sequence are you talking
Yes.
                                                                  .;    . ... .. m     - *.. . . . . . . .                          .                .
That was before.
19     about?     Wfiere are we at?
I think, 14 15 Mr. Griffin, you have the sequence out of order.
                                                                                  ?
16 MR. GRIFFIN:
                                                        'MR. GRIFFIN :~ If my c.equence.-is -out 6f;.,ord.ei," ~~
Do I?
2'O j 21 maybe'you have information I don't have.                                                       4 22 THE WITNFSS:   I'm not sure whether we are 23       out of order.
Yes.
24    ,
17 18 THE WITNESS:
What sequence are you talking
.... m 19 about?
Wfiere are we at?
?
'MR. GRIFFIN :~ If my c.equence.-is -out 6f;.,ord.ei," ~~
2'O j
maybe'you have information I don't have.
4 21 THE WITNFSS:
I'm not sure whether we are 22 23 out of order.
Why don't we take a short break.
Why don't we take a short break.
I 25       Let me ask                   some questions about this and maybe 1
24 25 Let me ask some questions about this and maybe I
                                ?
1
e 9
?
b
e b
9


                  -                ~
~
57 I       we can clear it up.
57 I
2                         MR. GRIFFIN:   Okay. It would be nice if you 3       could just take the initiative here.           I.f you know'something 4       I don't, if I'm out of sequence, I would appreciate your 5       letting me know so we can get it into the record.
we can clear it up.
6                                             (Recess taken.)
2 MR. GRIFFIN:
7                         MR. GRIFFIN:   We are back on the record at 8       11:04.
Okay.
9                                                           have had an oppor-               ;
It would be nice if you 3
              'o       tunitytoreviewthegeneralareas{
could just take the initiative here.
11 12                          THE WITNESS:
I.f you know'something 4
I don't, if I'm out of sequence, I would appreciate your 5
letting me know so we can get it into the record.
6 (Recess taken.)
7 MR. GRIFFIN:
We are back on the record at 8
11:04.
9 have had an oppor-tunitytoreviewthegeneralareas{
'o 11
{ "'
{ "'
13       M 14                         MR. GRIFFIN:   --
12 THE WITNESS:
15 16 17 18
13 M
                ''                                                                                            1
14 MR. GRIFFIN:
    . . - -              -    - ?       -
15 16 17 18 1
                                          .THE WITNESS :- No.             -  ,-..-    .~ ,..,   ...
?
.THE WITNESS :- No.
.~,..,
2'O -
2'O -
21
That's incorrect.
                                ~
t
That's incorrect.                   t MR. GRIPFIN:   That's not right?         Correct me.
~
22 THE WITNESS:   Your question, you said it had 23 24 been identified, the fact that myself and some other inspectors 25
21 MR. GRIPFIN:
                    !    sat down and we had some travelers and we were trying to
That's not right?
: c.                         -
Correct me.
22 THE WITNESS:
Your question, you said it had 23 been identified, the fact that myself and some other inspectors 24 sat down and we had some travelers and we were trying to 25 c.


. m _._ - .._.-                                                                                                          .  -
. m _._ -.._.-
m ._                 _ . _ _  .
m._
30 1         picco this thing together.
30 1
                                                                                                                                              ~
picco this thing together.
2                                          M, at what point in 3           time did you sit down to do this?
~
d                                                   THE WITNESS:                             I can't give you           a.. specific date.
M, at what point in 2
5
3 time did you sit down to do this?
d THE WITNESS:
I can't give you a.. specific date.
{
{
6 Was'.it shortly.hfter 6 7         told.you you would.be engagin'gf.in this.. activity?
5 Was'.it shortly.hfter 6 6
5                                                   THE WITNESS:                             Yes. We sat down and we were 9         trying to piece the whole thing together.                                                                 I could see that 10           we had some incomplete documentation.                                                             It became obvious 11 to me, also, that my inspectors were not certified in the proper procedure, which would have been the Brown & Roots' 12 13           procedure, to proceed any further.
7 told.you you would.be engagin'gf.in this.. activity?
14                                                      I instructed them at that time to take them 15 out, remove them.
5 THE WITNESS:
16           BY MR. GRIFFIN:
Yes.
17                       O                               Take the new --
We sat down and we were 9
A.                               The attachment,                           any documentation that we 18        .
trying to piece the whole thing together.
                                                                                                            , ...,. . . r s   - . - . . . . . .
I could see that 10 we had some incomplete documentation.
19 had put id there, to take it out, t
It became obvious 11 to me, also, that my inspectors were not certified in the Roots' 12 proper procedure, which would have been the Brown &
13 procedure, to proceed any further.
I instructed them at that time to take them 14 15 out, remove them.
16 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
17 O
Take the new --
18 A.
The attachment, any documentation that we
,.,... r s had put id there, to take it out, 19 t
he you referring to the chits?'-
1.
.- '~~~'
2'0 -
2'0 -
0           -
0
he you referring to the chits?'-                                            1.        .- '~~~'
~A I am referring to the traveler.
I am referring to the traveler.                                           6 21
6 21 a
                                    ~A I
I j
a j
THE WITNESS:
23 THE WITNESS:
23 24 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
24 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
25 O
25                       O                                 Take the eight-line traveler out?
Take the eight-line traveler out?
                                                                                                                                                        -          ....s
....s


  ,_...--w--                         -.                                    >-n...       =_ . - n .. -: w . ,
,_...--w--
ou I                 A. Right.
>-n...
2                         Okay, go ahead.                       I-*
=_. - n
0 3                 A     Again, there's two pages to it.     The new eight-4           line traveler is identified as the OI-OP 11.14-6 procedure.
.. -: w.,
5                         I could see problems.     We instructed them to 6         take it out. We had probably done 30, 40 or so of them; 7         take it out. I destroyed them, tore them up.
ou I
8                         That's ' shen                         and said 9    (basedonwhatIcoulddetermine,thatitwouldrequirean 10           ASME review and ASME inspectors to complete the documentation.
A.
11                   0     Then following this, this responsibility for 12           completing these travelers was referred back to the ASME 13           side of the house?
Right.
14                   A     That's correct.
I-*
15                   0     And then the events we discussed earlier in 16           this interview --
2 0
17                   A     That proceeded on.
Okay, go ahead.
18       ,
3 A
O      Okay. Couldyoutellmeabout[
Again, there's two pages to it.
19
The new eight-4 line traveler is identified as the OI-OP 11.14-6 procedure.
      ., . . . . yo .    .
5 I could see problems.
                ~
We instructed them to 6
2i          m m3 22                    A
take it out.
We had probably done 30, 40 or so of them; 7
take it out.
I destroyed them, tore them up.
8 That's ' shen and said (basedonwhatIcoulddetermine,thatitwouldrequirean 9
10 ASME review and ASME inspectors to complete the documentation.
11 0
Then following this, this responsibility for 12 completing these travelers was referred back to the ASME 13 side of the house?
14 A
That's correct.
15 0
And then the events we discussed earlier in 16 this interview --
17 A
That proceeded on.
18 O
Okay.
Couldyoutellmeabout[
19 yo.
~
m m3 2i
(
(
23 i                 @
22 A
i 24 .                 A      Okay. After I was informed that the ASM5 Group l
23 i i
25 l         review was complete, we picked up some mere of the travelers l
24.
l e     a                     1 m
Okay.
After I was informed that the ASM5 Group A
l 25 l review was complete, we picked up some mere of the travelers l
l e
a 1
m


60 1     and we sat down, and it became evident to me that there was 2 ! still incomplete documentation.'         There were still'h'o$d" points i
60 1
3     that hadn't been signed off or referred to.                       -a d               O     Inotherwords,[                                                           g 5
and we sat down, and it became evident to me that there was 2 ! still incomplete documentation.'
6               A. That's correct.
There were still'h'o$d" points i
7                    f               Who participated with you, 8                    in this activity?
3 that hadn't been signed off or referred to.
-a d
O Inotherwords,[
g 5
6 A.
That's correct.
f Who participated with you, 7
{
{
THE WITNESS:                                                     is 9
in this activity?
I'm trying to communicat e 10
8 9
THE WITNESS:
is I'm trying to communicat e
(
(
11        it tog Basically, at that point in time, it looked like 12        theresponsibilityfor{
10 it tog Basically, at that point in time, it looked like 11 theresponsibilityfor{
13               3 14                        Wesatdown,again,{
12 13 3
is                                -    [                                       [. M               D 16 17                       [
Wesatdown,again,{
18 l
14
19 Again, a random review. . You can see on Pag $ _
[
2o -    -[
[. M D
g-21         BY MR.' GRIFFIN:
is 16
22    ,
[
O     Are you talking about the page that reference s the -- I don't know if this particular one has it.                     This 22                                                                                     .
17 l
.          24         one?
18
25                  A. Yeah. This is an attachment to it and it I
. You can see on Pag $ _
m i               i
19 Again, a random review.
-[
2o -
21 BY MR.' GRIFFIN:
g-O Are you talking about the page that references 22 the -- I don't know if this particular one has it.
This 22 24 one?
A.
Yeah.
This is an attachment to it and it 25 I
m i
i


c .t.
c.t.
1 gives                                 You can see up here -- I don't know where that comes from, btit it identified thdm".             This 2!
1 gives You can see up here -- I don't know where that comes from, btit it identified thdm".
is in my handwriting.       It's a random review.
This 2 !
3 4
is in my handwriting.
I figured at this point in time we had estab-5 lished                                                                               I
It's a random review.
                                      -                                                                          m 0         Y u p inted to.                       ignature.
3 I figured at this point in time we had estab-4 lished I
6 l
5 m
Is that something that was added at a later revision?
0 Y u p inted to.
7 A.         The copy of 8
ignature.
9 g                0         You would have 11                                                                                 _
6 Is that something that was added at a later revision?
7 A.
The copy of 8
9 0
You would have g
11
{
{
0         Okay. Myunderstandingisf                                     -
0 Okay.
13 14 15 16 and it says, 18     -
Myunderstandingisf 13 14 15 16 and it says, 18 19
19
~~ "
                                                                                                            ~~ "
.~, ;., -
                                                                            .  .    .    .~ , ;. , -    --
Is that your recollection?
                                    -            Is that your recollection?                   6 21                       ,
6 21 Doyouhavea{
Doyouhavea{
Mr. Griffin?
Mr. Griffin?
23   i l                       MR. GRIFFIN:   I'm afraid I don't.
23 i
24 THE WITNESS:   That's my recollection.
l MR. GRIFFIN:
I'm afraid I don't.
24 THE WITNESS:
That's my recollection.
t L-.--
t L-.--


G2 1                                         You are reading from some papers
G2 1
                                                                                            '~
You are reading from some papers
2     l   there.
'~
3                           MR. GRIFFIN:   Right, and I am just'trying to 4         use it not as an absolutely accurate, but I'm trying to jog                       ,
2 l
5        his memory.     I'm not going to hold you to every word.
there.
6                                         Does that generally refiect what 7         you recallf 8                           THE WITNESS:   Yes, it does.
3 MR. GRIFFIN:
9         BY MR. GRIFFIN:
Right, and I am just'trying to 4
10                     0       Were you aware that this NCR --               Our review 11           of the records, I'm telling you,                     show that the NCR 12           was dispositioned and closed                                   but it was-                   >
use it not as an absolutely accurate, but I'm trying to jog 5
13             reopened again with Revision 1 on                                   for the 14             Purpose of changing the nonconforming condition.
his memory.
l 15                               The words                                       were deleted                 l 16           from your original NCR.       Were you aware of that?
I'm not going to hold you to every word.
17                   A.       Sometime later I became aware of it, yes.
6 Does that generally refiect what 7
18         .        O         When you wrote the words                                                 l 19           did you mesh to indicate that you had not looked at all the
you recallf 8
                                                                    ?
THE WITNESS:
trave 5'ers , but .just some of .the travelere.-
Yes, it does.
                                                                                                                  "" ~
9 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
    ;. yo .                                                                        -      . ~ , . , . , .-
10 0
21 A         That's right.                                           L 0         That you had identified the ones that you listec 22      l l
Were you aware that this NCR --
23       !    here on Page 2 of the NCR?
Our review 11 of the records, I'm telling you, show that the NCR 12 was dispositioned and closed but it was-13 reopened again with Revision 1 on for the 14 Purpose of changing the nonconforming condition.
24 I             A.       Right.
15 The words were deleted 16 from your original NCR.
25 Why don't you ask l
Were you aware of that?
l
17 A.
                                +
Sometime later I became aware of it, yes.
18 O
When you wrote the words l
19 did you mesh to indicate that you had not looked at all the
?
trave 5'ers, but.just some of.the travelere.-
. ~,.,.,.
~
yo.
A That's right.
L 21 22 l
0 That you had identified the ones that you listec l
23 here on Page 2 of the NCR?
I A.
Right.
24 Why don't you ask 25
+
h
h


63 1     what it was                           ,
63 1
What did you look at?
what it was What did you look at?
2                       MR. GRIFFIN:   Would you answer 3     question?
2 MR. GRIFFIN:
4                                       I mean, is that a fair question?
Would you answer 3
5       As opposed to characterizing, why don't you just have 6       say what       did.
question?
7                       THE WITNESS:   Well, as I told you before, I i
4 I mean, is that a fair question?
8       was informed by the ASME Group that the review was complete 9       and they had taken care of their respensibilities.
5 As opposed to characterizing, why don't you just have 6
10                       A few days later we picked up the travelers, 11       inspection travelers, again.       We sat down and we could see 12       additional hold points, that the problem was basically % t 13       solved.
say what did.
14                         We sat down and, again, you've got boxes of 15 these items, and we are picking it up and we are going through 16       it. We can see incomplete documentation again.
7 THE WITNESS:
17 We basically issued a nonconformance.                     I had 18   . assumed, as I had suggested before to Q , if there's j     . . .
Well, as I told you before, I i
                                            ..      .  ....  ....s .    .. . . . . . . . .      ,,.
8 was informed by the ASME Group that the review was complete 9
19 areas that the documentation could not be completed, that
and they had taken care of their respensibilities.
                                                                ?
10 A few days later we picked up the travelers, 11 inspection travelers, again.
g-      he 4dintify.a.nonconformance.                     --                . v ,. ,     .--
We sat down and we could see 12 additional hold points, that the problem was basically % t 13 solved.
21 I don't know whether           missed all these or 22 what the problem was there.       You would have to ask{ M 23 I                                                                                 .
14 We sat down and, again, you've got boxes of 15 these items, and we are picking it up and we are going through 16 it.
24 But I noticed it, 6 nd myself, and l   we sat down and we issued the NCR so Engineering could beccme 25
We can see incomplete documentation again.
17 We basically issued a nonconformance.
I had 18
. assumed, as I had suggested before to Q, if there's j
....s areas that the documentation could not be completed, that 19
?
he 4dintify.a.nonconformance.
. v,.,
g-I don't know whether missed all these or 21 what the problem was there.
You would have to ask{ M 22 23 I
But I noticed it, 6 nd myself, and 24 l
we sat down and we issued the NCR so Engineering could beccme 25


1     aware of it, and Quality Engineering could review the 2       situation.                         .                  ; . .*    -
1 aware of it, and Quality Engineering could review the 2
                                                                                    .                l 3                       That's it.                           .,
situation.
4       BY MR. GRIFFIN:
3 That's it.
5               0       You said you were aware that there was a Revi-6       sion 1, and if I understood your answer right, you were also 7       aware that the words                             were re. moved.
4 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
8               A.     I became aware of that situation, yes.
5 0
9               Q     When you became aware of it, how did you 10       interpret, or did you interpret, 11 12 A. How did I interpret it?                                 ,
You said you were aware that there was a Revi-6 sion 1, and if I understood your answer right, you were also 7
13               0     Yes. Do you understand 14 15 Perhaps it would be better to 16      asktheperson{
aware that the words were re. moved.
17 MR. GRIFFIN:     I am asking                   I guess 18 fo my owr} purpose' s ,~ to ide7-f   ha3%n~ u5 der'sTah6i'ng>. of
8 A.
* 19
I became aware of that situation, yes.
. . . . . 2D . .
9 Q
                                                                                      ,.        ..--~
When you became aware of it, how did you 10 interpret, or did you interpret, 11 A.
            ~
How did I interpret it?
21 BY MR., GRIFFIN:                                               .
12 13 0
22 0       You(
Yes.
u 23                         -
Do you understand 14 Perhaps it would be better to 15 asktheperson{
l
16 17 MR. GRIFFIN:
                                                                                          ~
I am asking I guess 18 fo my owr} purpose',~ to ide7-f ha3%n~ u5 der'sTah6i'ng>. of
A.     That's correct.
* s 19 2D.
24 73 0       Semebody else came along later, and I presume l
.. - - ~
~
BY MR., GRIFFIN:
21 0
You(
22 u
23 l
~
A.
That's correct.
24 0
Semebody else came along later, and I presume 73 l
l e
l e


65
65
                                                                  ~
~
1         your testimony is that it was not you,'.
1 your testimony is that it was not you,'.
3                               These welds identified are the ones' that are 4           deficient.
3 These welds identified are the ones' that are 4
5                             [               I object to that, Mr. Griffin.
deficient.
6           You are making a characterization about what someone else 7           did. I think you have to ask the person who did it.
5
8                               MR. GRIFFIN:   I will,                     I don't 9         have'     available here.
[
10                               I am still interested --                       is the ii C
I object to that, Mr. Griffin.
12 13 I am                   .
6 You are making a characterization about what someone else 7
14           requesting --
did.
As his counsel, I think it's unfair 15 16 to ask                     to characterize the intent of someone 17 else's actions.         I don't think that's a fair question, 18 Mr. Griffin.                                               ,
I think you have to ask the person who did it.
                                                  .......s..        - . - -    ...
8 MR. GRIFFIN:
19 MR. GRIFFIN:   Well, let me rephrase it and
I will, I don't 9
                                                                                                            \
have' available here.
2'O
10 I am still interested --
        -      I aybe5 5 can < jet What I need' and you can te satisfiedt. too';                           1
is the C
                        ~
ii 12 I am 13 14 requesting --
You understand, I think it's unfair 21                       ,
As his counsel, I think it's unfair 15 to ask to characterize the intent of someone 16 else's actions.
22 to ask him to speculate.
I don't think that's a fair question, 17 Mr. Griffin.
MR. GRIFFIN:   All I can tell you, 23 7,        we have a situation that still exists in relation to how I do not 25         ,
18
i l
.......s MR. GRIFFIN:
l 9
Well, let me rephrase it and 19
\\
I aybe 5 can < jet What I need' and you can te satisfiedt. too';
5 1
2'O You understand, I think it's unfair
~
21 to ask him to speculate.
22 MR. GRIFFIN:
All I can tell you, 23 we have a situation that still exists in relation to how 7,
I do not 25 i
l l
9


I           know at this point in time, until I ask                                       g 2
I know at this point in time, until I ask g
3                       -
2 3
4                                   I'm telling you - ' I'm not asking a question.
4 I'm telling you - ' I'm not asking a question.
5                                                                               and I.have some 6
5 and I.have some serious concerns about the implications 6
serious concerns about the implications 7
7 8
8                                                                                        E 9           BY MR. GRIFFIN:
E 9
10                         0           Now, my question to you is:
BY MR. GRIFFIN:
                                                                                ''S A.  '/
10 0
Now, my question to you is:
''S
'/
No, sir.
No, sir.
12 13 0       ''dkay,andIbillforego--
A.
                                                              ~
12 0
ja                                                            I appreciate it.
''dkay,andIbillforego--
MR. GRIFFIN:           I will forego asking him the 15 implications.           To me, the implications are clear.
~
16
13 I appreciate it.
<                                                During many parts of this interview today, 37 18 has been good enough to fill in some of the blanks
ja MR. GRIFFIN:
                                  .                              ... ~..         ,..  ,,-s.     .~....,,._.          .
I will forego asking him the 15 implications.
19 f r the*HRC of things that we we're not aware of.                           This would
To me, the implications are clear.
                                    ~
16 During many parts of this interview today, 37 has been good enough to fill in some of the blanks 18
be' An excelhent opportunity,.'
... ~..
.. . . . g.       ,
,,-s.
k                         -
. ~....,,. _.
21 I would certainlyg appreciate it.
f r the*HRC of things that we we're not aware of.
22 2F l If you have no knowledge, then that's another 1
This would 19 be' An excelhent opportunity,.'
l
~
                        ;  thing.
g.
24
k I would certainlyg 21 appreciate it.
* 1           *      #" *    * * * * ""*"    **
22 2F l If you have no knowledge, then that's another l
* 25 4
1 24 thing.
                        +
1 25 4
l
+


67 i -                                                                                -
67 i -
j                                                                           ...
j 2
2      That's basically a misunderstanding on your part.                             ,
That's basically a misunderstanding on your part.
3                           . A review cycle was being performed.'' The NCR 4     had been issued, and a hold was put on the travelers.                               Tc 5     my knowledge, no inspections were being performed until --
3
6     basically, we applied five hold tags.                       We applied hold tags 7       to the items.
. A review cycle was being performed.'' The NCR 4
8     BY MR. GRIFFIN:
had been issued, and a hold was put on the travelers.
9                       0       I do not have a copy of the --             Did you ever 10       learn what.the disposition was on the Rev. 2 NCR?
Tc 5
11                       A         Yes.
my knowledge, no inspections were being performed until --
6 basically, we applied five hold tags.
We applied hold tags 7
to the items.
8 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
9 0
I do not have a copy of the --
Did you ever 10 learn what.the disposition was on the Rev. 2 NCR?
11 A
Yes.
i.
i.
12                       O       What is your understanding --                       .
12 O
13                       A..       Not Rev. 2. I'm talking about Rev. O.
What is your understanding --
14                         0       I don't have that information, other than what 15       I read to you*while ago.               Was that the disposition?
13 A..
16                                               No. I think                       does 17       know the disposition.             Feel free to ask 18       BY MR. GRIFFIN:                                                     .
Not Rev. 2.
                      . . . .                            _ . ~ . . .. . . . . ,                      ,, ,
I'm talking about Rev.
19                       0       What was the disposit, ion?
O.
* " " '                        ~
14 0
2'O '"' ~             'A       ' Thi disposi-J66 was that NDE'and' hydrostatic 21         testing would be performed on these welds, and use as' is.
I don't have that information, other than what 15 I read to you*while ago.
22                         O       Would that be hydrostatic or --
Was that the disposition?
l 23   l                                         ,
16 No.
Vacuuta box.                              .
I think does 17 know the disposition.
24                                 THE WITNESS:     Yeah, vacuum box.
Feel free to ask 18 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
b 25    j                            MR. GRIFFIN:     Vacuum box.
_. ~.......,
19 0
What was the disposit, ion?
2'O '"' ~
'A
' Thi disposi-J66 was that NDE'and' hydrostatic
~
21 testing would be performed on these welds, and use as' is.
22 O
Would that be hydrostatic or --
l 23 l
Vacuuta box.
24 THE WITNESS:
Yeah, vacuum box.
b MR. GRIFFIN:
Vacuum box.
25 j
l
l


j               l                                                                                 68 1           BY MR. GRIFFIN:
j l
2                       O   Hydrostatic is a non-pressurized teit",'is it l
68 1
3           not; 4                       A   Hydrostatic is a pressurized test.           Probably 5           a more correct term would be leak test.           Hydrostatic implies
BY MR. GRIFFIN:
                                                                                                    )
2 O
6           the fact that you are putting static pressure.                             (
Hydrostatic is a non-pressurized teit",'is it l
l 7                       0   Do you know of your own -- from what you have 8
3 not; 4
seen or heard whether the final disposition was for'just 9           these welds that you identified in your original Rev. O or                 )
A Hydrostatic is a pressurized test.
10 if it was for all the travelers that had missing entries?
Probably 5
i A. I could make the assumption that if they took 11 12                                                                                         l 13 14 15 Are you asking me how I became aware that the, I
a more correct term would be leak test.
16
Hydrostatic implies
                ' NCR has been rev'd?
)
0   No. Since I don't have the benefit of having             j j7 l                                                                                 I' i
6 the fact that you are putting static pressure.
18     j Rev. O here in front of me, it was my understanding that
(
                          ..                        ... ~ . . . , -. r s -..    - - . . .  , , . .
l 7
39 lwhenyou"wrotetheRev.O,thacyouweretheonethat I               ~'                                                                 )
0 Do you know of your own -- from what you have seen or heard whether the final disposition was for'just 8
referenced a."randcm revi.ew," and then yoth.also had ,this...**"
9 these welds that you identified in your original Rev. O or
2'O ~j attachment which contains I don't know how many, 40 a,dditional 21 42 weld travelers that you had found deficiencies in, and you 23
)
                    ; were faithfully reporting these           in this nonconformance.
if it was for all the travelers that had missing entries?
A. That's correct.
10 i
24 3                          0   Now, in my interpretation (and tell me if I l
A.
l j
I could make the assumption that if they took 11 12 l
13 14 Are you asking me how I became aware that the 15 I' NCR has been rev'd?
16 0
No.
Since I don't have the benefit of having j
j7 l
I i
18 j Rev. O here in front of me, it was my understanding that lwhenyou"wrotetheRev.O,thacyouweretheonethat
... ~..., -. r s -..
39 I
)
~'
referenced a."randcm revi.ew," and then yoth.also had,this...**"
2'O ~j attachment which contains I don't know how many, 40 a,dditional 21 weld travelers that you had found deficiencies in, and you 42
; were faithfully reporting these in this nonconformance.
23 A.
That's correct.
24 0
Now, in my interpretation (and tell me if I 3
l l
j


69 1         wrong),I 2
69 1
                                                                                        -                  I 4                                                                                              l
wrong),I 2
                                            ]
I
5                             My question is, do you have ariy personal 6           knowledge that any subsequent revisions from Rev. O of the 7           NCR only f unctioned as a request for testing or review or 8           analysis, or whatever you want to call it, of just these,                       4 9            as opposed to all that may have been incomplete?               I have 10              a concern that maybe only these were addressed and not all 11             others that you did not reviev.
]
                                                                                                    /
l 4
12                     A.     I understand your concern.           You would have 13             to ask --
5 My question is, do you have ariy personal 6
14                     0       But you don't have any personal knowledge as 15              to how that was handled?
knowledge that any subsequent revisions from Rev. O of the 7
A.     No, sir. You would have to ask the person 16 i
NCR only f unctioned as a request for testing or review or 8
17     I who did the revision.             I didn't do the revision.
analysis, or whatever you want to call it, of just these, 4
as opposed to all that may have been incomplete?
I have 9
a concern that maybe only these were addressed and not all 10 11 others that you did not reviev.
/
12 A.
I understand your concern.
You would have 13 to ask --
14 0
But you don't have any personal knowledge as to how that was handled?
15 16 A.
No, sir.
You would have to ask the person i
17 I who did the revision.
I didn't do the revision.
18
18
                        ~
~
4       All right.          ...
4 All right.
19 Are you patisfied,
Are you patisfied, 19 witti the "usi as is'" dispos 5.tien on the weIds'that yb6 * "
                                                            ~
~
* witti the "usi as is'" dispos 5.tien on the weIds'that yb6 * "
~~
" '"            ~~
20
        . 20
(
(
21 identidied in your NCR' THE WITNESS:       Yeah. Basically, Quality 22       l 23 Engineering or Engineeririg had said, "This is acceptable.
identidied in your NCR' 21 THE WITNESS:
2a
Yeah.
                    ' We will do these things, and this makes it acceptable."                             ;
Basically, Quality 22 l
I 1
Engineering or Engineeririg had said, "This is acceptable.
25       l
23
' We will do these things, and this makes it acceptable."
2a 25 l


to 1         BY MR. GRIFFIN:
to 1
2                   O       As far as Rev. 0?-
BY MR. GRIFFIN:
                                                                                                                \
2 O
3                   A       (Nods head. )                             ..                      )
As far as Rev. 0?-
4                   0       Okay.                                                                 1 5                   A       Do you want to know how I became aware of the                       j 6         rev.~/
\\
7                   G       Of subsequent revisions?
3 A
8                   A       Yes.
(Nods head. )
9                   G       Yes.
)
10 Why don't you say when you learned n , about Rev. 27 12 THE WITNESS:     I just learned about Rev.       2.
4 0
When you looked at that document?
Okay.
13 14 THE WITNESS:     When I looked at that document.
5 A
15 I wasn't aware Rev. 2 had been issued.
Do you want to know how I became aware of the j
16 BY MR. GRIFFIN:                                     ,
6 rev.~/
j7                  0       Okay. Obviously, that's something for somebody 18 else to figure out.
7 G
                                                                            ~      '    ~          ~~~      "
Of subsequent revisions?
                              '~
8 A
                                                          ~I A- . - Well,' you 'v'e g'oT 'to End~eYstafid th'a't w'e 'are 39 l
Yes.
              ,o k
9 G
0       I have a concern that maybe the intention of 22 2,.
Yes.
l your original NCR may have been either misunderstood or limited by somebody else who revisioned it, which could'have 24 those ones 25 jresultedinareviewthatonlyencompassedjust t
Why don't you say when you learned 10 n
, about Rev. 27 THE WITNESS:
I just learned about Rev.
2.
12 When you looked at that document?
13 THE WITNESS:
When I looked at that document.
14 I wasn't aware Rev. 2 had been issued.
15 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
16 0
Okay.
Obviously, that's something for somebody j7 else to figure out.
18
. - Well,' you 'v'e g'oT 'to End~eYstafid th'a't w'e 'are
~
~
~~~
~I
'~
A-39 k
,o l
0 I have a concern that maybe the intention of 22 l your original NCR may have been either misunderstood or 2,.
limited by somebody else who revisioned it, which could'have 24 those ones jresultedinareviewthatonlyencompassedjust 25 t
l l
l l
l l
l l


71 1     that you identified on your original NCR.               That's a concern 2   ' that I have, and I guess I will' continue to have l't'until 3       I learn differently.
71 1
d                                           Well, perhaps the most useful 5       thing --
that you identified on your original NCR.
6                             MR. GRIFFIN:   Talk to --
That's a concern 2 ' that I have, and I guess I will' continue to have l't'until 3
7                                           Someone who was involved in the 8       revision.       I think that's the most fruitful way.
I learn differently.
9                             MR. GRIFFIN:   Sure. It has been my experience 10       out here,                       a lot of times I do go back to the 11       originator of these NCR's.
d Well, perhaps the most useful 5
12                             THE WITNESS:   Do you understand the intent 13       of the original NCR, Rev. O, what I reported there?                 Is there 14       any question in your mind?
thing --
15       BY MR. GRIFFIN:
6 MR. GRIFFIN:
16                   0         Did I read earlier -- Le't me see here.             If 17   f I understand correctly, your concerns were the quality of 18     .the welds were indeterminate.                               '.......,
Talk to --
                                  ,~
7 Someone who was involved in the 8
                                                ...  ..~...,..,.s     -..                , , , . f A-  ~~ Due to incomplete documentation.                               i 19                                                                                         1 70 -
revision.
                            '. .O     . Yes, .and that you applied hol_d . tags . . ,I., don.'.t- - l l
I think that's the most fruitful way.
21 have Rev. O here in front of me, but was it the same4disposi-22 tion that appeared on Rev. 2, that they would be tested?                       l 23                  A        It appears to me about the same disposition.
9 MR. GRIFFIN:
24                   0         Your recollection is --
Sure.
l 1
It has been my experience 10 out here, a lot of times I do go back to the 11 originator of these NCR's.
25                  A        Yeah.
12 THE WITNESS:
                                                                              ,                      j J
Do you understand the intent 13 of the original NCR, Rev. O, what I reported there?
Is there 14 any question in your mind?
15 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
16 0
Did I read earlier -- Le't me see here.
If 17 f I understand correctly, your concerns were the quality of 18
.the welds were indeterminate.
f
..~...,..,.s Due to incomplete documentation.
i
,~
19 A-
~~
1
.O Yes,.and that you applied hol_d. tags..,I., don.'.t- -
70 -
l have Rev. O here in front of me, but was it the same4disposi-21 l
22 tion that appeared on Rev. 2, that they would be tested?
It appears to me about the same disposition.
23 A
24 0
Your recollection is --
1 A
Yeah.
25 j
J


72 l
72 l
1 ,
1 0
0          Okay. I wasn't aware of the disposition.
Okay.
I                                                                       >
I wasn't aware of the disposition.
i                                             .                      .
I i
2 l           A           As I just looked at Rev. 2 a second ago, I 3 ' can't remember exactly what it said, but it struck *me as --
2 l
4               g           Similar, same disposition?
A As I just looked at Rev. 2 a second ago, I 3 ' can't remember exactly what it said, but it struck *me as --
5               A           I've seen Rev. O NCR.                        .
4 g
6                                           The language   Mr. Griffin read
Similar, same disposition?
                                                  ~
5 A
7       to you,                     that generally characterizes what you 8       remember writing in the NCR in Rev. O, isn't that right, 9     what he read to you 15 or 20 minutes ago?
I've seen Rev. O NCR.
10                           THE WITNESS:     Right. A random review was 11 , performed.       Incomplete documentation is discovered.             We have 12       a trend here; there was this many.             I didn't go through all 13       hundreds and hundreds and hundreds.
6 The language Mr. Griffin read
14       BY MR. GRIFFIN:
~
15               D         'And based on your seeing subsequent revisions 16       of the NCR, you realize now that the word 17     O   .- -
7 to you, that generally characterizes what you 8
18     .          A           (Nods head. )                         ,
remember writing in the NCR in Rev. O, isn't that right, 9
19               G Someone had tak n   '
what he read to you 15 or 20 minutes ago?
jn"                      -
10 THE WITNESS:
a     . ~ .            . . . . . .
Right.
                                                                                  ,~;.;, . _--   !
A random review was 11
21
, performed.
                          'A           Theword['
Incomplete documentation is discovered.
22 l'
We have 12 a trend here; there was this many.
23 .                      -                _
I didn't go through all 13 hundreds and hundreds and hundreds.
                                                                    - another point we 1
14 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
24       might want to clarify.         You identified on an attachment certair.     j 25 i    weld numbers to the NCR.           Did you identify ~all those that i
15 D
'And based on your seeing subsequent revisions 16 of the NCR, you realize now that the word 17 O
18 A
(Nods head. )
19 G
Someone had tak n a
,~;.;,. _--
. ~.
jn"
'A Theword['
21 22 l'
23
- another point we 1
24 might want to clarify.
You identified on an attachment certair.
j weld numbers to the NCR.
Did you identify ~all those that 25 i
i


l 73       fl l'         you discovered that had missing points?
l 73 f
l 2                                     THE WITNESS:       Uh-huh.                                                 i 1'
l l'
3                                                         Okay.
you discovered that had missing points?
4         BY MR. GRIFFIN:
2 THE WITNESS:
5                     0                           have I or any other NRC representative 6
Uh-huh.
lhere,andofcourse,theonlyotherpersonherebesides 7                             is the court reporter, threatened you in any raanner 8           or offerec you any rewards in return for your statement today?
i 1
9                     A                 No, sir.
3 Okay.
I distinctly recall you threatening 10                                   [
4 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
weren't forthright in this 1.1      jtowithdraw                              coffee if 12           interview.
5 0
13           BY MR. GRIFFIN:
have I or any other NRC representative lhere,andofcourse,theonlyotherpersonherebesides 6
14                       0               Have you given this statement freely and l
7 is the court reporter, threatened you in any raanner 8
15           voluntarily?
or offerec you any rewards in return for your statement today?
16                       A                 Yes, sir.
9 A
17       i               D                 Is there anything further you would like to 18
No, sir.
                        . add to the record to your testimony here today?
[
                            ..                              ..      ,-; . ...  .. ,. s -.. . . . . . . . .         , , .
I distinctly recall you threatening 10 1.1 jtowithdraw coffee if weren't forthright in this 12 interview.
13 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
14 0
Have you given this statement freely and l
15 voluntarily?
16 A
Yes, sir.
17 i
D Is there anything further you would like to
. add to the record to your testimony here today?
18
..,. s -..........
I can't think of anything at this point.
Do A.
Do A.
* I can't think of anything at this point.
19
19
                                                                                ?
?
            ;fo -
y'oti.haYe any. further questions?
y'oti .haYe any. further questions?                           - . .. . . -  . ~ ,, . . ,
. ~,..,
1 If I do, I'll call { MP MR. GRIFFIN:     No.
;fo -
21                               ,
1 If I do, I'll call { MP MR. GRIFFIN:
and tell                 I want to do the whole thing again, which is 22 23 l a? ways a possibility.                                                                       '
No.
And I will oppose, of course, 24                                                        _
21 and tell I want to do the whole thing again, which is 22 l a? ways a possibility.
I 25 on your behalf,
23 24 And I will oppose, of course, I
25 on your behalf,


f                                                                                       74 1                           THE WITNESS:         I am glad to try to clear up 2     any point I can.
f 74 1
* I 3                           MR. GRIFFIN:         I appreciate that.                                                         ]
THE WITNESS:
4                           We will go off the record at 11:27                                                               ,
I am glad to try to clear up 2
I t
any point I can.
5                                                    (Discussion off the record.)
3 MR. GRIFFIN:
6                           MR. GRIFFIN:         Back on the record.
I appreciate that.
I 7                                          3has something he would like to 8     add to the record.             It is 11:28.       Go ahead, THE WITNESS:
]
9                                                  Wewere{
4 We will go off the record at 11:27 I
10                                                                                                                         f 11                                          -]
t 5
12 But I did want to let you know that a few days 1
(Discussion off the record.)
13        later' j
6 MR. GRIFFIN:
14                                                                                                                               '
Back on the record.
15                                             3                                                                                1 l
I 3 as something he would like to h
16 I was asked a few questions subsequently 17 afterwards, but that was basically probably the last real 18     . contact MR. GRIFFIN:         Okay. I appreciate your filling 19 g0 -   't' hat in.           -
7 8
                                                    *            ~ ' -             -  . - ~
add to the record.
                                                                                                .~,..
It is 11:28.
                                ~
Go ahead, 9
And, M I would (like 21                       ,    [
THE WITNESS:
22 to make a clarifying point, too, that I think would be useful 23 1
Wewere{
i    in line with your comments you have just made.
f 10
At the time you and 74 25
-]
    '                                                s
11 But I did want to let you know that a few days 12 later' 13 j
14 3
15 l
I was asked a few questions subsequently 16 afterwards, but that was basically probably the last real 17 18
. contact MR. GRIFFIN:
Okay.
I appreciate your filling 19
. ~,..
g0 - 't' hat in.
~ ' -
. - ~
[
And, M I would (like
~
21 to make a clarifying point, too, that I think would be useful 22 1 in line with your comments you have just made.
i 23 At the time you and 74 25 s


75 2
75 2
3                           THE WITNESS:     We would all be involved in it.
3 THE WITNESS:
4                           MR. GRIFFIN:     That's correct?                   -
We would all be involved in it.
s 5                           THE WITNESS:     Yes. It was possible 6
4 MR. GRIFFIN:
That's correct?
s 5
THE WITNESS:
Yes.
It was possible 6
7 f
7 f
8 9                           MR. GRIFFIN:     Okay. I think I understand.
8 9
10       Anything else,
MR. GRIFFIN:
: 1)                             THE WITNESS:     No, sir.
Okay.
12                            [             ] Thank you for allowing 13       to clarify his testimony.
I think I understand.
ja                             MR. GRIFFIN. Off the record at 11:30.
10 Anything else, 1)
15 (The investigative deposition 16
THE WITNESS:
                                      . was concluded at 11:30 p.m.)
No, sir.
17      ///
[
is   .        ///                                                       ,'.
] Thank you for allowing 12 13 to clarify his testimony.
                                                        ...  .. .  . . .. ~ - , . .     . . . . . . . .  , , . . -
ja MR. GRIFFIN.
19                                                       .
Off the record at 11:30.
                                                                                                      ~             " ~ ~ '
(The investigative deposition 15 was concluded at 11:30 p.m.)
                              . ".'-    . . . . .      .--                    ~ ~r   . . -
16
                                                                                                    .v .. . - -
///
                                .                                                                        y 21                         .
17 is
22 l
///
23   i I
... ~ -,..
i 25 l
19
~
" ~ ~ '
~ ~r
.v... - -
y 21 22 l
23 i
I i
25 l
l l
l l


3
)
                                                                                                          #8
#8 3
                                                                                                                            )
1 COUNTY OF TARRANT
1       COUNTY OF TARRANT             )
)
2       STATE OF TEXAS               )
2 STATE OF TEXAS
j 4                 I, Gay E. Denton, a Notary Public in Tarrant County 5       for the State.of Texas, do hereby certify that the foregoing 6        answers in response to the interrogatories as indicated were 7       made before me by the. witness,                             after said 8
)
witness had first been duly sworn to testify the truth, the 9       whole truth and nothing but the truth; and the above and                                       l 10        foregoing is a . full, true, correct ar.d complete transcript 11        of the proceedings had at the time of taking said investigativo 12         deposition.                                                               i 13 Given under my hand and seal of office on this the 14         24th day of October, A.D. 1984.
j 4
I, Gay E. Denton, a Notary Public in Tarrant County 5
for the State.of Texas, do hereby certify that the foregoing answers in response to the interrogatories as indicated were 6
7 made before me by the. witness, after said witness had first been duly sworn to testify the truth, the 8
9 whole truth and nothing but the truth; and the above and l
foregoing is a. full, true, correct ar.d complete transcript 10 of the proceedings had at the time of taking said investigativo 11 12 deposition.
i Given under my hand and seal of office on this the 13 14 24th day of October, A.D.
1984.
15 16 Gay E.#Denton, Notary Public in Tarrant County for the State 17 of Texas.
15 16 Gay E.#Denton, Notary Public in Tarrant County for the State 17 of Texas.
18       .
18
                                                          ...  ~.. My Comn.i,ssion 6.xpir.es .11,-19-3.4.                .
~.. My Comn.i,ssion 6.xpir.es.11,-19-3.4.
19                                                     '
19
                              ' '. ~                                                           *            * * * ~ ' "
~
79 ..
* * * ~ '
i 21 22 23-   l
79..
                                                                                                        ~
i 21 22 23-l
                        \
\\
2d 25 I                                                               .
~
2d 25 I
l l
l l


4-84-029 REPORT OF INTERVIEW WITH l
4-84-029 REPORT OF INTERVIEW WITH l
twas interviewed by N                         Investigator H.                                 N at the Comanche-Pejk Steam Electr                                                     CPSES).
twas interviewed by N Investigator H.
said'               hadbeenemployedas[                                                                                       l Investicator'
N at the Comanche-Pejk Steam Electr CPSES).
* ad been identified b s8
said' hadbeenemployedas[
                                                                              ]
l Investicator' ad been identified b s8
%said that it wasWunderstanding that a supervisory dech.;en was made to transfer the lirier plate from the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) group to the non-ASME group, because it was believed the inspection of these liner plates was cover . . s - ef                                                               -.
]
non-ASME er -i r- o sI.-                                  "
%said that it wasWunderstanding that a supervisory dech.;en was made to transfer the lirier plate from the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) group to the non-ASME group, because it was believed the inspection of these liner plates was cover..
                                                                      .      ..                        ,  ,il                  , -
s - ef
151               gEtt:k ed                   87E516                               s 6                                                         :
,il non-ASME er -i r-I.-
IIMM3 '
o s 151 gEtt:k ed 87E516 s
                                                                                                              .j ed reviewing M{
6 IIMM3 '
reca said thatf / 'i .- .. .., ..hw -
.j M{
                    . .i
ed reviewing at after had said said thatf / 'i.-.. hw -
                            ~
,~g
6
..i 6
                                                  . EINN331
. EINN331
                                                  ,e
*f reca s
                                                                    ,i-said s
,i-
                                                                                            *f
,e
                                                            ; ar*Tr.za:rarnag57.Tarann ...ca ' had '
; ar*Tr.za:rarnag57.Tarann...ca ' had '
                                                                                                        ,~g at after had o
~
              .                  .,            .                                      .f                                               'h
o
                        ~                                                                                 .
.f
                                                                    .0 EXHIBIT (12)
'h
~
.0 EXHIBIT (12)


A-84-039 l
A-84-039 was in and out of id]ll$recalledthat, had expressed concern nr job was being asked ~
was in and out of id]ll$recalledthat,           had expressed concern         nr job was being asked ~                                                 aid not learn at at th ime                     were s       re of the i     crions they       eeil ve                                                                 that i
aid not learn at at th ime were s
sai   ec         dn represent fit-up and cleani ness inspections that occurred after the plates were in the building.
re of the i crions they eeil ve that i
sai ec dn represent fit-up and cleani ness inspections that occurred after the plates were in the building.
1 e
1 e
l mm--
l mm--
i EXHIBIT (12)           4 a
i EXHIBIT (12) a 4


4-84-039 REPOP,T OF INTERVIEW WITH at the omanc e Peak Steam Electric Station                               '
4-84-039 REPOP,T OF INTERVIEW WITH at the omanc e Peak Steam Electric Station (CPSES ervi ed NRC CPSES.
(CPSES                   ervi       ed           NRC CPSES.                   said M sai.
said M sai.
E l.
E l.
told '.'              .,
f.1 told '.'
f.1                                       ,'.       - ''
.a ~
                                                                                                                .a ~       pm reca   e. _
pm reca e.
                                                                                                      ~ ' ~
~ fg,
                                ~ fg,                        .        .
~ ' ~
                                    )            ma               _
)
l that el e r,           ,                                                                  ,,                                        l' y ., - , ,
ma that el e r, l
I had heard that said-was                 _understan 1                     at the sal understood thef EXHIBIT (13)
y., -,,
I had heard that said-was
_understan 1 at the sal understood thef EXHIBIT (13)


i, P
i, P
l I      '                                            UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
l UNITED STATES OF AMERICA I
                  ,                                                                                          ~
~
2                                                  NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3       '
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
TEXAS UTILITIES GENERATING                   I i         COMPANY, et al.                                 Docket Nos. 50-445 I
3 TEXAS UTILITIES GENERATING I
d X
i COMPANY, et al.
50-446 i            (Comanche Peak Steam Electric                                                                     l 5 i                         Station, Units 1 and 2)           X I
Docket Nos. 50-445 I
                      \
d 50-446 X
l 6 i
(Comanche Peak Steam Electric i
                        '                                                    QA Meeting Room 7                                                               Administration Building i                                                   Comanche Peak Steam Electric 8I                                                                Station d
X Station, Units 1 and 2)
                          ,                                                  Glen Rose, Texas 9
I 5 i
Thursday, October 18, 1984 10 l                                                                       e I
\\
11 i I
l 6 i QA Meeting Room 7
INVESTIGATIVE DEPOSITION OF w               -,
Administration Building i
i 12                           PRESENT:                                                                                     t On Behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission:                             .
Comanche Peak Steam Electric 8 I Station d
13 H. BROOKS GRIFFIN, Investigator U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 14 l                                                                                                   j l
Glen Rose, Texas 9
Region IV                                                               .
Thursday, October 18, 1984 10 l e
15              t 611 Ryan Plaza Drive, Suite 1000                                         J Arlington, Texas   76011                                            !
I INVESTIGATIVE DEPOSITION OF I
l 16 f
w 11 i i
l                                         :                                                        I 17
12 PRESENT:
                                  ;                On Beh.alf of L.                                                 i l
t On Behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission:
18 I                                                        ,L       --
13 H. BROOKS GRIFFIN, Investigator 14 l
l
Nuclear Regulatory Commission j
* r l'
U.
19 l
S.
                                                                          '    *          . s.  .
l Region IV 611 Ryan Plaza Drive, Suite 1000 15 t
                                                                                                              ~
J 76011 l
20                 l V
Arlington, Texas f
i 21                   ,
16 l
22 23                                                                                             .
On Beh.alf of I
24                                                                                   .
17 l
I                                                                 1
L.
* l                                                               f               I/
i I
18 l
,L r
l 19 l
s.
~
20 l
V i
21 22 23 24 I
1 I/
l f
25 i
25 i
                                                                                                      ..        EXHIBIT (16-         i 2
EXHIBIT (16-i 2
  %            yp                  g                                                  W g & .ee h                                           ..
g &.ee yp g
W h


                              !                                                                              2 i
2 i
EEEEEEEEEGE 2
EEEEEEEEEGE 2
,                                                                                                1:19 p.m.       ,
1:19 p.m.
3                           MR. GRIFFIN:   For the record, this is an inter-4        lViewof                               who is employed'by Brown &
3 MR. GRIFFIN:
5           Root, Incorporated.
For the record, this is an inter-lViewof who is employed'by Brown &
6!                           The location of this interview is the Comanche 7           Peak Steam Electric S'tation.     The date is L.
4 5
8' 9                           Present at this interview arel 10 11
Root, Incorporated.
                            ,            ]
6 !
12                             For the NRC, I am H. Brooks Griffin, Investigator 13                             This is being transcribed by a court reporting 14           service.
The location of this interview is the Comanche 7
J5 l                         {     I need you to stand, and I need to swear i
Peak Steam Electric S'tation.
16           you to the contents of your statement.
The date is L.
17 ' Whereupon, 18 l                                                       j -
8' 9
                                            ,                . . ~ .
Present at this interview arel 10 11
19           having first'been duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole yo             t' rut-h [nd nothing but the- truth, was examined and tdstified'"
]
l 21 .             n his' oath as follows:                                           (
12 For the NRC, I am H. Brooks Griffin, Investigator 13 This is being transcribed by a court reporting 14 service.
22                                           EXAMINATION 23             BY MR. GRIFFIN:
J5 l
24                     Q. S I need to ask you a question.                 . Tor the 25             purposes of this interview, is                     your perjonal l
{
i                                                               /
I need you to stand, and I need to swear i
I i .          .
16 you to the contents of your statement.
17 ' Whereupon, 18 l j
.. ~..
19 having first'been duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole yo t' rut-h [nd nothing but the-truth, was examined and tdstified'"
l 21.
n his' oath as follows:
(
22 EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
24 Q.
S I need to ask you a question.
. Tor the 25 purposes of this interview, is your perjonal l
i
/
I i


3 l
3 l
1         representative?                                                                               t
1 representative?
                                                                                          ,.                    1 2                 L       Yes.                                                                       4 3                 0,     Are you aware that 4
t 1
                                          -- not this interview, but other partier i
2 L
5     ltothehearing?
Yes.
6     l           A. Yes, sir.
4 3
l 7                         MR. GR'IFFIN :                   would you explain
0, Are you aware that 4
{
-- not this interview, but other partier i
8 the natuzi of the relationship you haveL with M for                           ~
5 ltothehearing?
9         the purposes of this hearing.
6 l
10                                         Yes. I am representing 11
A.
            ! personally at this interview.           This has been reqsested by l
Yes, sir.
12     ~ yourself on behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
l 7
13                         In preparation for this interview, in my initial                                 l 14    l consultation with. M I explained to % that I 15         ,
MR. GR'IFFIN : {
16 17 18
would you explain 8
                                            . . ~ . . . -  -
the natuzi of the relationship you have with M for L
r~.     -    -        --.                  ~ >
~
19   i 21   f 22 J
9 the purposes of this hearing.
73                           I have explained to                   ;that it is         _
10 Yes.
24            e neeivable that there could come a time in my representaticn 25           of other parties, other individuals and corporations that M*,-
I am representing
! personally at this interview.
This has been reqsested by 11 l
12
~ yourself on behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
13 In preparation for this interview, in my initial l
!l consultation with. M I explained to % that I 14 15 16 17 18
.. ~... -
r~.
~
19 i
f 21 22 J
73 I have explained to
;that it is e neeivable that there could come a time in my representaticn 24 25 of other parties, other individuals and corporations that M*,-
4
4
                                                                            ~
~
l l
l l


4     l I         conceivably could raise an issue of conflict of interest, but 2         I do not see any present conflict nor any likelihoos that 3         such a conflict could arise.
4 l
d                    .
I conceivably could raise an issue of conflict of interest, but 2
I explained to g however,             that if such a I
I do not see any present conflict nor any likelihoos that 3
5        : conflict did arise or if I perceive that any part of my
such a conflict could arise.
I explained to g however, that if such a d
I 5
: conflict did arise or if I perceive that any part of my
{
{
6           representation of     was leading to a point where a conflict 7          could arise, that I'w ould immediately request that the pro-B           ceedings be brought to a halt, thatIwouldconferwith{
6 representation of was leading to a point where a conflict I' ould immediately request that the pro-7 could arise, that w
9        fprivatelyandexplainto f         that such a conflict might arise, 10           and aweit further instructions from                         bout how we
B ceedings be brought to a halt, thatIwouldconferwith{
                \
fprivatelyandexplainto f that such a conflict might arise, 9
11        l should proceed.
10 and aweit further instructions from bout how we
i i
\\
12           BY MR. GRIFFIN:
l should proceed.
  . 13                   0         did you have any choice as to whether 14       ! you had counsel represent you?
11 i
l 15       i           A     Yes, I did.
i 12 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
I 16                   Q     And it was your choice that               be your personal 17           representative?
13 0
18     i A     Yes, it was.                             ,
did you have any choice as to whether 14
19 I might state for the record that l
! you had counsel represent you?
l 70 --- i.t is Ny understanding that it is the util.irty.'.s poQey .that--
l 15 i
21             all persons who are being interviewed by the NRC havq the 22             option to request counsel; and if they do request counsel, 23             that counsel be provided for them by the utility.
A Yes, I did.
24                           MR. GRIFFIN:   Okay,                           in relation 25 to that statement, I would like to contribute to the record
I 16 Q
And it was your choice that be your personal 17 representative?
18 A
Yes, it was.
i I might state for the record that 19 l
l 70 --- i.t is Ny understanding that it is the util.irty.'.s poQey.that--
21 all persons who are being interviewed by the NRC havq the 22 option to request counsel; and if they do request counsel, 23 that counsel be provided for them by the utility.
24 MR. GRIFFIN:
: Okay, in relation 25 to that statement, I would like to contribute to the record
[
[
                                                                              ..g i
..g i


a 1             the fact that as an investigator for the NRC I have interviewed 2               personnel at Comanche Peak on a reoccurring basis; 'almost 3               on a weekly basis. The majority do not request representation; 4               nor are they notified by the utility that representation 5
a 1
the fact that as an investigator for the NRC I have interviewed 2
personnel at Comanche Peak on a reoccurring basis; 'almost 3
on a weekly basis.
The majority do not request representation; 4
nor are they notified by the utility that representation 5
will be made to them.
will be made to them.
6                               As an NRC investigator, our policy is that 7               the person has a right to a personal representative of his 8             l choice. That can be a fellcw worker or anybody else.
6 As an NRC investigator, our policy is that 7
9 l                   I think, if I might characterize it, the policy 10                 that you stated is enforced in varying degrees from week 11 to week, and in this instance, because this is an issue before l
the person has a right to a personal representative of his 8 l choice.
12             i the Board, I think that maybe more people were aware that i
That can be a fellcw worker or anybody else.
13             i they might want counsel.
9 l
i 14                                   I have already interviewed a number of people 15             ,
I think, if I might characterize it, the policy 10 that you stated is enforced in varying degrees from week to week, and in this instance, because this is an issue before 11 l
on the same' issue that I am going to be discussing with ie                 m 16                               and some were notified, some were not.       So each l                     17                 week when I come down here, I find a different situation; is                 and Ehe policy that you stated is applied differently from
12 i the Board, I think that maybe more people were aware that i
                                                                      ~   ~"                            "~   ~
13 i they might want counsel.
19           ,
i 14 I have already interviewed a number of people 15 on the same' issue that I am going to be discussing with ie m
a week-t'o-week basis.
16 and some were notified, some were not.
                                                ~'
So each l
  ..                  g. ./                   . .        .
17 week when I come down here, I find a different situation; is and Ehe policy that you stated is applied differently from
                                                                        -Let me contribute anotheAjwo .. ---
~"
l 21           ! cents to the record.         That contribution would be to rgquest 22                   that you provide names of employees that you desire to 23                   interview so that the policy can be made known to them.
~
24                                     I think that where known, where the request 25                     for interviews is known, that it has been the policy to advise
"~
                                                                                                  .P
~
                                                                                                ' y j
19 a week-t'o-week basis.
                                                                                            -E
~'
g.
./
-Let me contribute anotheAjwo.. ---
l 21 ! cents to the record.
That contribution would be to rgquest 22 that you provide names of employees that you desire to 23 interview so that the policy can be made known to them.
24 I think that where known, where the request 25 for interviews is known, that it has been the policy to advise
.P
' y j
-E


6 1           employees of the right that                 in this case has chosen 2           to exercise.
6 1
3                           We would like to make sure that all employees 4           have an informed basis to make a judgment as to whether or 5
employees of the right that in this case has chosen 2
to exercise.
3 We would like to make sure that all employees 4
have an informed basis to make a judgment as to whether or 5. not they care to be represented personally or not, and if i
I 6 l so by whom, which is certainly their choice.
i 7
l It is important, I think, that we all recognize l
!therightsofindividualstoberepresentedandtomakethat 8
i right known to them so that they can make an intelligent I
9 l
10 ! decision as to whether to exercise it or not.
11 MR. GRIFFIN:
I can tell you that the NRC's 12 policy is that they have a right to representation.
That I
fdoesn'tnecessarilymeanthatwenotifyasamatterofcourse 13 14 each person that we interview of this right; but if they 15 l express the desire to be represented or have somebody present, i
16 l we do.
I have noted your request that this policy 17 exists and your preference that the NRC discuss the potential 1g l
~ - e.....
[ interviewess prior to the interviews so that they can be 19
?
t 26 '" 'm5de aware of the'ir rights As the policy -ex4sts with'in, the. ~ ~
utility'.
t 21 i
As I understand it, it is not 22 3
23 only utility policy, but it's NRC policy that people have l);
24 this right.
I think that the right can only be effective j
i if the individual employees who are requested to be interviewed 25 9
i
i
        . not they care to be represented personally or not, and if I
6  l so by whom, which is certainly their choice.
i 7  l                        It is important, I think, that we all recognize l
8  !therightsofindividualstoberepresentedandtomakethat i
9 I
l right known to them so that they can make an intelligent 10  ! decision as to whether to exercise it or not.
11                            MR. GRIFFIN:    I can tell you that the NRC's 12          policy is that they have a right to representation.            That I
13    fdoesn'tnecessarilymeanthatwenotifyasamatterofcourse 14          each person that we interview of this right; but if they 15 l express the desire to be represented or have somebody present, i
16    l we do.
17 I have noted your request that this policy 1g exists and your preference that the NRC discuss the potential
                                ,            .: . . . . . .  ~ - e. . ...    ..
l 19    [ interviewess prior to the interviews so that they can be
                                                            ?
t              . . .
26 '" 'm5de aware of the'ir rights As the policy -ex4sts with'in, the. ~ ~
utility'.                                                      t 21      ;
i As I understand it, it is not 22                                        3 23          only utility policy, but it's NRC policy that people have          -  l);
this right. I think that the right can only be effective          j 24 i
25      ;
if the individual employees who are requested to be interviewed 9
i 1


7 1       are inf ormed of- the right and have an opportunity to make
7 1
: 2.       an intelligent decision as to whether to exercise it or to
are inf ormed of-the right and have an opportunity to make 2.
            '3       waive it; and if they choose to exercise it, how t' hey choose 4    !toexerciseit.
an intelligent decision as to whether to exercise it or to
5                       I think in recognition that it is the NRC policy i                   .
'3 waive it; and if they choose to exercise it, how t' hey choose
6     l and the site policy.to permit personal-representatives to                     ;
!toexerciseit.
7        represent individual's, that all persons interviewed should                   '
4 5
8        be informed of that right.
I think in recognition that it is the NRC policy i
9- l                   Otherwise, the right, in my judgment, turns 10       out to be meaningless.             -
6 l and the site policy.to permit personal-representatives to 7
MR. GRIFFIN:      Well, I note your personal feelings
represent individual's, that all persons interviewed should 8
  ,        11
be informed of that right.
9-l Otherwise, the right, in my judgment, turns 10 out to be meaningless.
{
{
12         on this.
MR. GRIFFIN:
13                       I would like to point out, though, that the l
Well, I note your personal feelings 11 12 on this.
14   lNRChasjustcompleted'whatIwouldtermamassiveinspection 15    ,
13 l
down here where you had 50 or 60 NRC personnel, or agents 16         for the NRC, having almost numerous day-to-day contacts with 17
I would like to point out, though, that the 14 lNRChasjustcompleted'whatIwouldtermamassiveinspection down here where you had 50 or 60 NRC personnel, or agents 15 16 for the NRC, having almost numerous day-to-day contacts with 17
                  ! just about every phase of construction and startup out here.
! just about every phase of construction and startup out here.
i 18 To my knowledge, none of those people, the issue of repre-
i To my knowledge, none of those people, the issue of repre-18
                                                  ....,.7 ..        - ... . . . . . .    ,, ,
....,.7 l
l             ,
sentation during all of those contacts neither came up nor 39
39 sentation during all of those contacts neither came up nor
-i
                                                              ?
?
                -i           ..
20 -q d'id.they provide waivers, nor was the policy that y.5q,.,have -"'
20 -q d'id.they provide waivers, nor was the policy that y.5q,.,have -"'
lstatedimplemented.
(
(
21     lstatedimplemented.
21 S
22 S    I can't help but believe that the interviews             !
I can't help but believe that the interviews 22 that I have conducted in which the policy has been brought 23 to the forefront is the exception rather than the norm.
23 that I have conducted in which the policy has been brought 74 to the forefront is the exception rather than the norm.
74 I am not in a position to tell you that the 25
25 I am not in a position to tell you , that the
;v i
                                                                                ;v               i l                                                           -*.
l l
l
il ll
                    !                                                        il                   ll
,l
                    !,                                                                            ,l


I                                                                                                  I 8
I 8
1           NRC is prepared in the future to notify you or your law firm 2           of all parties that we wish to interview, meaning myself 3           or the site residents or any other part or division of the 4
I 1
fNRC.
NRC is prepared in the future to notify you or your law firm 2
5       !                                Let me be clear.                     I have not re-6           quested nor do I intend to request that you notify me or 7           my law firm. The appropriate person to be notified is the 8       l site management to whom the per. son you wish to interview 9           reports.
of all parties that we wish to interview, meaning myself 3
10       l                   MR. GRIFFIN:   Well, I personally for my own i
or the site residents or any other part or division of the fNRC.
g)           convenience normally go through                                                     ,Of 12           course, that doesn't mean that one of your attorneys is on 13            site.
4 5
Itwouldindicatethat%didn'thaveachanceto 14           prepare the witness, and I am just saying in the interest 15     ; of time and the Commission's needs, we do not send notifica-i 16 tion down here to             or any other part of the Applicant, 17     ,
Let me be clear.
either at this site or any other site in the country, that gg           we are coming down to interview any particular personnel.
I have not re-6 quested nor do I intend to request that you notify me or 7
        ),    ;
my law firm.
We come down. We have issues, and we follow
The appropriate person to be notified is the 8 l site management to whom the per. son you wish to interview 9
                                                                                                                    ~"
reports.
2"O
10 l
              ; the -logical paths'that wila dead us to the answers t6e,                                     -  --
MR. GRIFFIN:
21      lCommissionneeds.                                                                         (
Well, I personally for my own i
22 Our needs are understood by not only the 23 Commission, but the Boards and the utilities.                           Certainly,                 j 7j             the individual parties have a right to representation.                                   I         i 25 cannot guarantee to you that every time I want tkinterview
g) convenience normally go through
                                                                                              ,.y i.
,Of 12 course, that doesn't mean that one of your attorneys is on Itwouldindicatethat%didn'thaveachanceto 13 site.
14 prepare the witness, and I am just saying in the interest 15
; of time and the Commission's needs, we do not send notifica-i tion down here to or any other part of the Applicant, 16 17 either at this site or any other site in the country, that gg we are coming down to interview any particular personnel.
We come down.
We have issues, and we follow
),
2"O ; the -logical paths'that wila dead us to the answers t6e,
~"
lCommissionneeds.
(
21 Our needs are understood by not only the 22 Commission, but the Boards and the utilities.
Certainly, j
23 7j the individual parties have a right to representation.
I i
cannot guarantee to you that every time I want tkinterview 25
,.y i.
Y
Y


9 I
9 I
somebody in the f uture, that I will notify each and every i
somebody in the f uture, that I will notify each and every i
2             party, because in the course of a year I may talk'to 200 3             people out here, and I tnink that may be a conserv'ative i
2 party, because in the course of a year I may talk'to 200 3
4         I figure.
people out here, and I tnink that may be a conserv'ative i
i 5         ,
4 I figure.
i 5
It's just not our policy to pre-notify the i
It's just not our policy to pre-notify the i
6
6 { Applicant of who we plan to talk to, because a lot of times 7
{ Applicant of who we plan to talk to, because a lot of times 7             ' we don ' t know; but that's something we are going to have                                 q l
' we don ' t know; but that's something we are going to have q
l 6         ' to work out.                                                                                   l 9                                             Fine. Let's do it off the record.
l 6
l 10                               MR. GRIFFIN:   I will make your feelings on 11         ' this known to other parts of the NRC, and maybe next time
' to work out.
                                                                                                                        )
9 Fine.
12               we come across this there will be an answer.
Let's do it off the record.
13 l                     M I'm sorry we had to put you through all 14        lthis.       I'm not sure we accomplished that much.
10 MR. GRIFFIN:
15 i
I will make your feelings on 11
BY MR. GRIFFIN:
' this known to other parts of the NRC, and maybe next time
16                       0       If we could start off by -- if you would, tell 17               me what your present position is out here?
)
12 we come across this there will be an answer.
l M I'm sorry we had to put you through all 13 lthis.
I'm not sure we accomplished that much.
14 15 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
i 16 0
If we could start off by -- if you would, tell 17 me what your present position is out here?
[
18 A
18 A
[            ._;    ..  . . _ , . . . . . . .  ..._.J.       . . .
..._.J.
19                       0       Whoisyour{                                                                  )
Whoisyour{
                            ..r m
19 0
                                          . ch.                                      .. . _      . ....
)
21                        'O.       So you are a Brown & Root employee?                       (
. ch.
l 22                         A       (Nods head.)
,.,. !..r m 21
23                         0       How long have you been employed here?
'O.
24                         L 25            m .;                                                                     )
So you are a Brown & Root employee?
                !                                                                                                      I i                   .
(
l
l 22 A
(Nods head.)
23 0
How long have you been employed here?
24 L
m.;
)
25 i


t 10   l 1                 g     Have you 3                 A. Yes, I have.
t 10 1
4                  O    % as you are aware, I have interviewed other I                                                                                   I 5      lpeopleonthis,and               has attended one other. interview.
g Have you 3
I 6
A.
It is my understanding that you all have had an opportunity 7     , to go over your testimony, or your potential testimony.
Yes, I have.
l 8     ,i               If I am accurate in my understanding, if it's' j
% as you are aware, I have interviewed other 4
9         agreeable with you, I think                     as indicated that 10       , you could expedite things by maybe giving a narrative'of 11         what your participation, what your understanding of this 12         program was, 13 14                                                               .
O I
15                         If you could explain to me the course of events 16     ' that you recall, then we may be able to expedite things.
I lpeopleonthis,and has attended one other. interview.
17         Otherwise, we can go just question and answer, whichever 18     ! you prefer.                                                 ,
5 I
j         .
6 It is my understanding that you all have had an opportunity 7
j9
, to go over your testimony, or your potential testimony.
                                                  \,If I may add, M what I suggested
l 8
                                                                                            ~       ""
,i If I am accurate in my understanding, if it's' j
      - 2'O ' j to Mr. Grif fin this morning ~'was that you-jest start eft the' l
9 agreeable with you, I think as indicated that 10, you could expedite things by maybe giving a narrative'of 11 what your participation, what your understanding of this 12 program was, 13 14 15 If you could explain to me the course of events 16 ' that you recall, then we may be able to expedite things.
21 beginning whenI 2's                            and what you did from the time you learned 23           about the issue until it was resolved.
17 Otherwise, we can go just question and answer, whichever 18
74                         Just take him through chronologically what 25           happened, and that might save us all some time.j I
! you prefer.
l I                                                                                       ,
j
\\,If I may add, M what I suggested j9
~
- 2'O ' j to Mr. Grif fin this morning ~'was that you-jest start eft the' l beginning whenI 21 and what you did from the time you learned 2's 23 about the issue until it was resolved.
74 Just take him through chronologically what 25 happened, and that might save us all some time.j I
l I


I 11 1
I 11 1
BY MR. GRIFFIN:                                                                             1 I
BY MR. GRIFFIN:
2                           G         Right.
1 I
This is agreeable to me, and then I                           )
2 G
3 can ask questions as they occur to me. I would like to                                     \
Right.
This is agreeable to me, and then I
)
can ask questions as they occur to me.
\\
3 I would like to
{
{
4            -
casually make or informally make you aware that in investi-4 t
t casually make or informally make you aware that in investi-5                   gating this particular issue and 6             j it's my understanding there has been y
5 gating this particular issue and 6
i testimony taken before the Board, the NRC's TRT team has B
it's my understanding there has been j
                              . explored this issue, and I gather from information I have 9           ;
testimony taken before the Board, the NRC's TRT team has y
received from various parties that Brown & Root and the 10 Applicant here have invested a great deal of time in going 11                       through these issues.
i
12           l                             It has come-to my~ attention, also, that even 13 the Intervenor and other related groups have explored these j issues, too.
. explored this issue, and I gather from information I have B
ja l ..
9
15           l' In this case, I'm afraid my little division l
; received from various parties that Brown & Root and the Applicant here have invested a great deal of time in going 10 11 through these issues.
16 of the NRC, the Office of Investigations, is making the
12 l
It has come-to my~ attention, also, that even the Intervenor and other related groups have explored these 13 ja j issues, too.
l..
15 l'
In this case, I'm afraid my little division 16 of the NRC, the Office of Investigations, is making the
{
{
t 37 fourth or fifth or sixth pass through this same information.
t fourth or fifth or sixth pass through this same information.
18 I know it may seem         to some that we are 19 i      i belaboring'the' point, but we have a n,eed to find out the
37 18 I know it may seem to some that we are 19 i belaboring'the' point, but we have a n,eed to find out the i
  - --  20. ; . events. as they occurred, not ~just what the"'do.. ..c umen ta tio'n'                     . ...
: 20. ;. events. as they occurred, not ~just what the"'do....c umen ta tio'n' l
l 21 shows.                                                                             l
21 shows.
                                                                                                                                  \
l
22                                           So if you can do as                       suggested or f
\\
23               indicated,                                                                                               i going through a chronology, it would be very                     ,            l 74                 helpful, i
22 So if you can do as suggested or f
                                                                                                      ?
23 indicated, going through a chronology, it would be very 74
: helpful, i
?
25 A.
Okay.
Okay.
25
Well, on the 2I f
                ,                        A.                  Well, on the 2I f
\\
                \
l l
l l


44           ;
44 q
q                                                                                                                                                                                                             ,
So many things have transposed believe it was last spring.
So many things have transposed 1        believe it was last spring.
1 2, in the time frame.
2,         in the time frame.
I What we were dc;ng 3
I What we were dc;ng 3
f'                       i[               ;
f' i [
                                                                                                                      '      . 2b .; [:'l.'.              .
. 2b.; [:'l.'.
f 2 ; r7 . Y . 2,: .. ..?.         . .
f 2 ; r. Y. 2,..?.
                                        - . .l '
7 4
4          is we a
is we
-..l '
at that time.
at that time.
5         It had nothing to do with                                                                                                                                                                                   !
a 5
6 ;
It had nothing to do with We were implementing procedures, and so forth like this, 1
We were implementing procedures, and so forth like this,                                                                                                                                                   1
I 6 ;
                                                                                                                                                                                            ', .:) l !* b                       I
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                                                                                                      '' : '' '' : i
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                                                                                                                                                  'y- .-            -l    s'.                    .
',.:) l !* b 7
                                                                ~
3ust an'
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                                                                                                                                                                          ' A b'''       ..
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39
._ ;.l:l ^ 's:O! l.Y.b'.'.''X?S O ii 12 i
over what he had and --
i So we went 13 l
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Could you be more specific on that?
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' he have?
39
15 and M Well, k had the drawings, A
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16 17
12                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i So we went over what he had and --
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* f.: j "i]. i, -'fff ];7.f.}$- [1.. hK F; "
13      l What did                              l (L
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Could you be more specific on that?                                                                                                                                 \
6 18 So what I did,
l 14 l
~
15     ' he have?                                                                                                                                                                                                            i A                    Well, k had the drawings,                                                                   and M 16 "i]. i, -'fff ];7.f.}$- [1.. hK F; "
19
17
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                                    ~. ' " l . 7. . . . .L - l. ' . ] . ; . '. .' ' ' T0,; '
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* f.: j 18      6                                                                                                                                                                                                        "
f 1
                                                          ~
20 b
So what I did,                                                                                                                                                           >
Who was that?
19                                                                                                     -                          .
2 21 w y. u.:e.e.: w : q We u
                                                                                              ~                 ~                                               , , , . .
....;...s....
                                                                                                                                                                                                        -                            .d 1
++,,,,f.
20     f                                                                                                                                                                                                                          ,
+._
b                  Who was that?                                                                                                                         2 w y . u .:e.e.: w : q We 21                                                                                                                  -
$w.
u
f-
                                                                                        .              . .,. ...;...                        ....;...s....                                                     * *'
'i,,
                                                                                                                                                                                                ++,,,,f.
25
                                                                                                                                            , *                '- ,.       f-
-x
                                                                                                                                                                                    'i, ,
                                                                                                + ._      $w.    ,  .
25                                                                                                                                                                      -x


13 i
13 i
1         if they were just started or where.
1 if they were just started or where.
2                               Once                       then we g 3
2 Once then we g 3
1 5                               We 6         ;
5 We 6
In one of their offices there they had i
In one of their offices there they had i
7                                   What we ended up doing, I asked 8           to use
7 What we ended up doing, I asked
                                                                                  }
}
9                        O     We are going a little quicker here than serves 10           my purposes.       I would like for you to explore a little more               ,
8 to use 9
11           closely or in more detail how the decision was made, 12       j 13 14 15       l 16                         A. Well, that's what I was leading up to, because 17 this time frame I am talking about was the time it took just 18            to get a grasp on how big the situation was'
O We are going a little quicker here than serves 10 my purposes.
                                                    .. ~..., . .  .-.-    . . . .
I would like for you to explore a little more 11 closely or in more detail how the decision was made, 12 j
I9
13 14 15 l
                                                                                            '' ~
16 A.
2'O j         -    -      -
Well, that's what I was leading up to, because this time frame I am talking about was the time it took just 17 to get a grasp on how big the situation was' 18
Once<we gathsred from[
.. ~...,..
21       ,
I9 Once<we gathsred from[
O      We will stop there then. How did the realiza-22       ,
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23 tiOU 74 Here you already aware of that when you --
2'O j 21 O
25 A. No, I wasn't.                     ,
We will stop there then.
_f                       !
How did the realiza-22 tiOU 23 Here you already aware of that when you --
l l
74 A.
                                                                        +
No, I wasn't.
25
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14 1                   0       How did you become aware of that?
14 1
2                     L       Truthfully, I don't   remember whethe$ g 4       l                                                                               l 5
0 How did you become aware of that?
lM 6                           But when     got all this stuff together, then 7               started compiling it and seeing which --
remember whethe$ g 2
8       ,
L Truthfully, I don't 4
i O      But I still need some information here.       The I                                                 e 9       lwayIseeit, and tell me if I'm wrong, 10 11 12 13       l l
l l
14       I 15 16                       is that right?                                                     !
lM 5
17                     A       Right.
6 But when got all this stuff together, then 7
18                     D       And so you all were casting about l
started compiling it and seeing which --
19 g-             M. .                 .      .-.            -  . . . .
8 O
!                  21
But I still need some information here.
                                          'A       Well, we had to figure out what existed, you l
The i
22 know,                                                                         '
I e
23                             .
9 lwayIseeit, and tell me if I'm wrong, 10 11 12 13 l
It might be useful to find out --
l 14 I
24 I guess the dates of employment would confirm it.                         ,
15 16 is that right?
25 i i
17 A
Right.
18 l
D And so you all were casting about 19 g-M..
'A Well, we had to figure out what existed, you 21 l
: know, 22 23 It might be useful to find out --
24 guess the dates of employment would confirm it.
I 25 i i


f l                                                                           15
f l
15
(
(
N 2                       MR. GRIFFIN:   I am not intending to go back 3         that far.
N 2
l 4     i BY MR. GRIFFIN:
MR. GRIFFIN:
5                     0   But you 6
I am not intending to go back 3
                                                                                                ]
that far.
7                    A. Once % put it all together and had an over-8     ! all look at what     .
l 4
9 10 11 12     i               O   Okay. What's your understanding, based on 13 what I suspect was a considerable amount of time invested 14            to try and solve this problem before and since, M 15 l
i BY MR. GRIFFIN:
16           What did they constitute?   What did they stand for?           What 17           are they?                                                                     I la                     A. From previous knowledge of other sites that
5 0
                                              ._.~.,..-s       - . - - . . . . . .
But you
19             use this type of system -- you know, it used to be a common
]
                            ..                            ?
6 Once % put it all together and had an over-7 A.
  ~
8 ! all look at what 9
2'0 - -       t'hing, and any more it's gotten away from 4t...-It'Ci,n a                 ""
10 11 12 i
21             checklist now, primarily.                                     6 22 23 24 25                       O   Let me characterize it and you tell me if I'm
O Okay.
                                                                            /                       \
What's your understanding, based on 13 what I suspect was a considerable amount of time invested to try and solve this problem before and since, M 14 15 l
                                                                        ..~'
16 What did they constitute?
                                                                                                    \
What did they stand for?
What 17 are they?
I la A.
From previous knowledge of other sites that
._.~.,..-s 19 use this type of system -- you know, it used to be a common
?
2'0 - - t'hing, and any more it's gotten away from 4t...-It'Ci,n a
~
21 checklist now, primarily.
6 22 23 24 25 O
Let me characterize it and you tell me if I'm
/
\\
.. ~ '
\\


i l                                                                                           16           i 1
i l
l 1     right at this site,                                                                     ]
16 i
2                                                                                                       ,l a
1 right at this site,
4                                                                                                         l 5
]
i A       Personally, I can't say that's exactly how 6     l 7     : it goes.
l 2
t 8               0       Well, in this process of solving the problem l
,l a :
I ou had to make a decision, 9
l 4
5 i
l A
Personally, I can't say that's exactly how 6
7
: it goes.
t 8
l 0
Well, in this process of solving the problem I
ou had to make a decision, 9
i 10 did you not, or you did part of --
i 10 did you not, or you did part of --
                      ;                                                                                                        L l           A       Yes, sir.                                                                             l 11 0       -- the decision 12 13 ja                A       Uh-huh.
l A
15 0      Now,  in arriving at this conclusion,I g
Yes, sir.
* L                   i l
11 12 0
16                                                                                           \             f
-- the decision 13 A
                    ;            A      Well, let me clarify one thing because I'm j7 n t sure the question really lends itself accurately.                                   I           ;
Uh-huh.
18
ja in arriving at this conclusion,I g 0
                                                      . . *. . ~ . . . .. . . . .. - . . .    . . . . . .            .
: Now, 15 L
j wasn't a' ware, or I'm not aware of hos ,it'was exactly i6'the                                     l 39 I                                                       .
l i
3
16
                    ,'.past. , ..
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                                                                                                                      ....l
f A
                                .O       B t you did review the procedures, did you 21   l n t?                                                                                                 ;
Well, let me clarify one thing because I'm j7 n t sure the question really lends itself accurately.
22   i I
I 18
A       We 1   ked thrcagh procedures.                     We looked --
.... ~...
23 24 0     -
wasn't a' ware, or I'm not aware of hos,it'was exactly i6'the l
1 23                                                                           ~   .-
39 j
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,'.past.,
....l 3
.O B t you did review the procedures, did you l
21 n t?
22 i
A We 1 ked thrcagh procedures.
We looked --
23 0
24 1
23
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5 l
5 l
mu-
mu-


I 17 1       '
I 17 1
A. Yeah.                                               ;
A.
I 2                     g     Obviously,.}
Yeah.
3 I                                                                       1 4
I 2
f            A. Ri ght , but whdn you said it's 5
g Obviously,.}
6        ;eummununummanused 7                             It was a vehicle and it was a document that 8
3 I
lascertainedthat--
1 f
l 9       .              D     Do you know who issued them?
A.
10                      A. No, I don't.
Ri ght, but whdn you said it's 4
l 11       !              O     Do you know who --
5
12       l                                   }Idon'tthink               had'finishec 13                   answer.
;eummununummanused 6
l 14       .
7 It was a vehicle and it was a document that 8 lascertainedthat--
l 9
D Do you know who issued them?
A.
No, I don't.
10 l
11 O
Do you know who --
12 l
}Idon'tthink had'finishec 13 answer.
l BY MR. GRIFFIN:
14 1
15 0
Okay.
What's your answer after, "No, I don't"?
i No.
It was the previous question 16 17 hadn't finished the answer.
a
. ~,..,... ~ "
~
yn
~
Iknowit{
21 That 22 23 I do know.
But when you said it's under the construction 24 program, I don't know what you....
+
r 25
,e
 
i 18 1
BY MR. GRIFFIN:
BY MR. GRIFFIN:
1 15                        0    Okay. What's your answer after,    "No, I don't"?
2 g
16      i                                      No. It was the previous question 1
What I am getting at -
17                  hadn't finished the answer.
3 I
a yn
;muuammuummmmmm 5
            ~
A Uh-huh.
                                                                                .~,..,...~"
I 6
                              ~
l g
21 Iknowit{
And these things I
22 That 23                I do know. But when you said it's under the construction 24              program, I don't know what you....
7 I am telling you that I
                                                                              +              r 25                                                                    ,e
j my understanding is that e
 
9 l
i 18 1        BY MR. GRIFFIN:
10 l
2                 g     What I am getting at -
l 11
I 3
      <      ;muuammuummmmmm                   -
5      !          A     Uh-huh.
I 6     l           g     And these things I
7                                                   I am telling you that I
e    j my understanding is that 9
l l
10 11                                         l 12
(
(
is i
12 i
14 15 16 17 18
is 14 15 16 17 18
                                            .-- ~...-                       .            ,. .        ,
.-- ~...-
19 i
19
                                                        ?
?
                                                                                                  ^
i
- .      '                                                  ' "* ''                          ~~
^
2'0 '                                                           -
2'0 '
                                                                              ' ' ' ~. .
' ' ' ~.
21 That's the only point I am trying to get at,
~~
          !                                                                                          l 22 and that's my understanding.     I don't know if that's your 23 understanding or not.
21 That's the only point I am trying to get at, l
7,                           Then your 23         s J.
and that's my understanding.
I don't know if that's your 22 23 understanding or not.
7, Then your 23 s
J.


1 19       I 1                                               because that was the           j occurred]wasadecision -                                        -
1 19 occurred]wasadecision -
2       enly evidence available to you that they had in fact oc' curred.     1 3                     You can see the direction of my cuestions here.      .
1 because that was the j
4         I am trying to pin you down based on I
2 enly evidence available to you that they had in fact oc' curred.
6                                       I am trying to solve this issue.
3 You can see the direction of my cuestions here.
7                       I woul'd like to know what I                                           L 8     I                                                           what 9         they were.
4 I am trying to pin you down based on I
10 A. Well, again, based on what you just explained, 1       i i
6 I am trying to solve this issue.
14 15 16                                                      ]
7 I woul'd like to know what I
17                       I think a lot of times that the -- and what 18         we were looking at, 19   ,
L 8
g g.
I what 9
                                        ,t 22                                                          ]
they were.
23 When he climbs out of there, if he's been paged 72           or something, he's on the run, or I don't know.
10 A.
Well, again, based on what you just explained, 1
i i
14 15
]
16 17 I think a lot of times that the -- and what 18 we were looking at, 19 g
g.
,t
]
22 When he climbs out of there, if he's been paged 23 72 or something, he's on the run, or I don't know.
25
25


20 1
20 1
* g     Based on your discussions and you all's attempts 2         to determine how to go about solving this problem, M i                                                                                     )
g Based on your discussions and you all's attempts 2
to determine how to go about solving this problem, M i
b a
b a
i 6                   A     It was one of the things 7       l D     Was al'so another possibility that there may 8
i 6
9                                                                                           h 10                     A     I think, you know, 11                   -- - .r -             g 12                     O     Well, I will just offer this to you.                 I have 13           talked to a number of people about this already, and there i                                                                                       !
A It was one of the things 7
14      I. is confusion all the way up to this date as to what those I
l D
i 15      l things represent.
Was al'so another possibility that there may 8
16                                           I don't think that's a fair 17           characterization, Mr. Griffin.
h 9
18     l                     MR. GRIFFIN:     You may be more informed on this l
10 A
                                              ..      .. . a .
I think, you know, 11
                                                                  ~ - * -     . . . . . . , , . _
-- -.r -
19     i subject th'an I, but I have talked to some folks.                     As a matter I           ..
g 12 O
                                                                                      ~
Well, I will just offer this to you.
I have 13 talked to a number of people about this already, and there i
I. is confusion all the way up to this date as to what those 14 I
i l things represent.
15 16 I don't think that's a fair 17 characterization, Mr. Griffin.
18 l
MR. GRIFFIN:
You may be more informed on this l
~ - * -
... a 19 i subject th'an I, but I have talked to some folks.
As a matter I
ll df fact, there also were problems based on the. transia,,5 f rom' ~
~
2'O -
2'O -
ll df fact, there also were problems based on the. transia,,5 f rom' ~                    ,
l this f6rm to this form as to --
I 21      l this f6rm to this form as to --                                           (
(
22 I don't believe that's correct,
21 I don't believe that's correct, 22
    ;3             also. I don't believe it's correct.         I have talked to every-24 one, I believe, who was involved in this work and I don't
;3 also.
    'S             believe that that's a fair characterization of what I know c
I don't believe it's correct.
I have talked to every-24 one, I believe, who was involved in this work and I don't
'S believe that that's a fair characterization of what I know c
{
{
l i
i


                      !                                                              21 i
21 i
I         I to be the case.
I I to be the case.
2                           I don't think it's appropriate to --     If you l
2 I don't think it's appropriate to --
3         , are going to characterize what the, cuote, record'on this i
If you l
4          '
3, are going to characterize what the, cuote, record'on this i
issue is, I think it ought to be a complete characterization 5         i of what the record is.
issue is, I think it ought to be a complete characterization 4
l 6         l                 MR. GRIFFIN:   Well, it is probably pointless I
5 i of what the record is.
I 7             for you and I to debate it, _
l 6
8       ,
l MR. GRIFFIN:
Well, it is probably pointless I
I 7
for you and I to debate it, 8
9 10 i
9 10 i
11         l                   I have talked to some people that indicated I
11 l
._    -12             there was confusion in their minds, and I am merely repeating, 13             whether it is useful or not, that there was some doubt.
I have talked to some people that indicated I
I                   I can assure you, based on the terdimony I 14       ;
-12 there was confusion in their minds, and I am merely repeating, 13 whether it is useful or not, that there was some doubt.
i 15             have taken, that; 16       ,
I I can assure you, based on the terdimony I 14 i
i 17     l BY MR. GRIFFIN:
15 have taken, that; 16 i
1 4
17 l BY MR. GRIFFIN:
13      !                O     What is your understanding                           ]
4 1
19 I         .  ..
O What is your understanding
]
13 19 I
2'O '
2'O '
l 21 22 'l 23                             What is your understanding 24 which I presume you 25     : reviewed at some point in time.                             <F s
l 21 22 'l 23 What is your understanding 24 which I presume you 25
: reviewed at some point in time.
<F s
l I
l I
l
l


22 1           A                     you referenced, in my opinion, was
22 1
                                                                              '~
A you referenced, in my opinion, was
'~
2.
2.
3     :    0     For what?
3 0
* 4           A.                       s 5           0       Okay. Specifically,                         -
For what?
A       In this case, 6     f 7           0       Is 8     !
4 A.
A.     No.
s 5
9           0   .
0 Okay.
Okay. So this is 10                                     if I'm accurate here --
Specifically, f
11       l   A.
A In this case, 6
7 0
Is 8
A.
No.
9 0
Okay.
So this is 10 if I'm accurate here --
11 l
A.
Foryour{
Foryour{
12 13           0     I have numerous others that aref'.
12 13 0
14 15 16 17           A-     Well,-
I have numerous others that aref'.
IB                                                           ,.
14 15 16 17 A-Well,-
19      :    0
IB Ok'ay, sot $1 19 0
* Ok'ay, sot $1
,,.Jm
          ,, .Jm                               . ..              . . .. . ..
'A.
21
If youf 21 22
                      'A.     If youf 22                                                                                 ,~
,~
23             D       But you are actually'
23 D
                                                        -                                    s.
But you are actually' s.
4 2s e
4 2s e


I i
I 23 i
23 1                   A'     Not really.
1 A'
2                   O       In other words, 3       ,
Not really.
I 4                   A       When you are doing                                   p l
2 O
6'                                                   -
In other words, 3
7i    .
I 4
G      In other words, you --
A When you are doing p
8                   A       You are not 9
l 6'
10 11 12                   O       I'm not arguing with you. I am just trying 13 to understand, because I'm the non-technical one here.
7 i G
14                     A       Right.
In other words, you --
15                     O       The only thing I am getting at 16 1 17 i
8 A
19 l                   A       No.
You are not 9
l       .
10 11 12 O
20 0    -
I'm not arguing with you.
Can they bo roose and you san.- just mde.,them " ~ '
I am just trying 13 to understand, because I'm the non-technical one here.
21 around*like this?                                         (
14 A
4 I believe that             hasn't 22 l 23             testified on this point, but in the ASLB proceeding there's
Right.
      ;4                                                                     I believe 23    ,
15 O
that testimony is from, amons others, % that 1
The only thing I am getting at 16 1 17 i
19 l A
No.
l Can they bo roose and you san.- just mde.,them " ~ '
20 0
around*like this?
(
21 4
I believe that hasn't 22 l 23 testified on this point, but in the ASLB proceeding there's I believe
;4 amons others, % that that testimony is from, 23 1


24 1
24 1
3                               After theI 6
3 After theI 6
7       l                       MR. GRIFFIN:     Okay.     Well, help me along here.
7 l
8 l                                                                                                     l 10 11                          ]
MR. GRIFFIN:
12      j
Okay.
:)Iamnotawi_tnes=nor-a-technical 13             expert.     I am trying to characterize what I believe the la      l testimony to be.           Perhaps a better person to ask is someone I
Well, help me along here.
l 15            who knows the technical issue on this.
8 l
16                               F2. GRIFFIN:     Can we go off the record and 17             explore this.
10
16     :                                                  (Discussion off the record.)
]
                                                              . . . ~ . . ...                                   , , ,
11
19    ;                          MR. GRIFFIN:     Back on the record.                 It is four l             ..
:)Iamnotawi_tnes=nor-a-technical 12 j
2'O ~ ; m'inutes till 2:00 p.m.                 --
13 expert.
                                                                                                  -        .~,.,.
I am trying to characterize what I believe the l testimony to be.
l We have all had our 21     l 22 23                                 MR. GRIFFIN:     Yes. We have compared notes
Perhaps a better person to ask is someone la I
                ;g             on the blackboard and have reached an understanding of what 25   ,
l who knows the technical issue on this.
1                                                                        J.
15 16 F2. GRIFFIN:
Can we go off the record and 17 explore this.
16 (Discussion off the record.)
... ~.....
MR. GRIFFIN:
Back on the record.
It is four 19 l
2'O ~; m'inutes till 2:00 p.m.
. ~,.,.
l We have all had our 21 22 23 MR. GRIFFIN:
Yes.
We have compared notes
;g on the blackboard and have reached an understanding of what 25 1
J.
l
l


l                                                                                   25 I
l 25 I
2           BY MR. GRIFFIN:
2 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
3                  0      I would appreciate it, Mif you c'ould 4        j characterize what your understuding is now in response to i                                                                       -
I would appreciate it, Mif you c'ould 3
l 5
0
f                                                                      .j 6                   A.     Well, see if I am right when I say this.                         What l
!j characterize what your understuding is now in response to 4
              ?
i l
i 8       ,
f 5
l 0
.j 6
LN 10 I
l A.
A.     With the t
Well, see if I am right when I say this.
                                                                          .]
What
11                   0       That is my understanding of 12 '                     s 1
?
13                                             I don't believe             testified that 14 l-15
i 8
                    '                                                                                              1 16     i                     MR. GRIFFIN:       Yes, I do.
LN l
17
0
:    And         eeps telling you what                   i 18                                       Those are two different, things.
.]
                                                        .. ~..., - . . , , -     -.. . . . . . . .    ,,
10 A.
19            BY MR. GRIFFIN:
With the I
                                                                        ?
t 11 0
O                                     here , -th en ,- a ttait,., to , --
That is my understanding of 12 '
        , 2'O 21     l if not~--                                                                     $
s 1
22                                           ; You are pointing 23 24
13 I don't believe testified that 14 l-15 16 i
                                            '.R . GRIFFIN:   I'm sorry.         I will find an because I think that.,better 25 i
MR. GRIFFIN:
Yes, I do.
i And eeps telling you what 17 18 Those are two different, things.
.. ~..., -..,, -
BY MR. GRIFFIN:
19
?
, 2'O O
here, -th en,- a ttait,., to, --
21 l if not~--
22
; You are pointing 23
'.R. GRIFFIN:
I'm sorry.
I will find an 24 because I think that.,better 25 i
i I
i I
i i
i i


l                                                                             26       l t
l 26 t
l 1       illustrates the one I am trying to find out about.                 I have           j 2       cuite a few here and it makes no difference which one it 3       is.
l 1
d                         I have got S     ,
illustrates the one I am trying to find out about.
I 7       BY MR. GRIFFIN:
I have j
B               O       What is your understanding
2 cuite a few here and it makes no difference which one it 3
          '    ;                                                                                      )
is.
10 l
d I have got S
11 12               A.         That the 13 d I
I 7
1 15   f 16    !          O         In this instance, of course, 17 18
BY MR. GRIFFIN:
_-  a..   - - , , , -*-    . . . . . , , . , . -
B O
19   i           A.         Right.
What is your understanding 10 l
l 2'0 -
11 12 A.
0     -
That the 13 d I
                                      -- which says-21 22 23                                                                                           ,
1 f
                                      -                                                              t 24                         -
15 O
25 In this particular case, what is your e
In this instance, of course, 16 17 18 a..
                                                                            *:                      1 l
19 i
4                           i:
A.
Right.
l 0
-- which says-2'0 -
21 22 23 t
24 In this particular case, what is your 25 e
1 l
4 i:
i,
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22 I
22 I
understanding 2                   A     It
understanding 2
        ~
A It
:ammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmme I
:ammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmme I
5                   A       For this 6                                         For the[
~
7                         MR. GRIFFIN:     Okay, because you know, l
5 A
9                                                       No, that's not correct.
For this 6
10
For the[
                                                      }Thishasan 11                       and you can refer to that.
7 MR. GRIFFIN:
12       l BY MR. GRIFFIN:
Okay, because you know, l
13                   0     It was rny understanding that le       l t
9 No, that's not correct.
15       l                                             Is that your understanding?
}Thishasan 10 11 and you can refer to that.
16       !
12 l BY MR. GRIFFIN:
You weren't involved with that?
13 0
17                   A     I wasn't involved with this.             This was what 18               had.
It was rny understanding that le l
                                                      .    ~.....e~
t 15 l
                                                              .              - > ~ .' '-    . . . .
Is that your understanding?
                                      ~
16 You weren't involved with that?
19     j             0     The reason I ask you ,this is because I have
17 A
                                                        ~
I wasn't involved with this.
2'o ' ' ' t'alk'ed ' to pe6pl6 'wh'o , as I stiated bef ore T IEsd' conf uti6n ' af 22 l
This was what 18 had.
24                         .                                                  .
~.....e~
25     l             A       The attributes that are presently,,: addressed                                 i e                               i I
- > ~.' '
E i
~
19 j
0 The reason I ask you,this is because I have 2'o ' ' ' t'alk'ed ' to pe6pl6 'wh'o, as I stiated bef ore T IEsd' conf uti6n ' af
~
22 l
24 25 l
A The attributes that are presently,,: addressed i
e i
I E
i


28 I     on this specific one. You have d!
28 I
          '1 7
on this specific one.
l 8 ;           G     Let me volunteer something here.
You have d !
9 i           A     Sure.
'1 7
l         1,             O     One of the explanations that I had that these i
l 8 ;
G Let me volunteer something here.
9 i A
Sure.
l 1,
O One of the explanations that I had that these i
11 '
11 '
12
]
                                                                                      ]
12 13 l
13 14 l
14 15 16 17 So we are left with the question here, or at 18
15 16 17 So we are left with the question here, or at 18     .least I am left with the question 19                                                                     ,
.least I am left with the question 19
  . ..  ,., . ;                                                              .--q w
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: It's also for the fillet welds,
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                                                                                    ~
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2 lBYMR. GRIFFIN:
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3 d                     O     on this particular one,.,
3 GRIFFIN:
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on this particular one,.,
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6                       A     To me, 7
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8                     0                                     here?
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22 '                     A     Right.
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23                         G     And you were part of the decision inaking that 24                 that was a legitimate --
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25 k


L 30 1       '
L 30 1
CL       I and other people at the NRC have reviewed l
CL I and other people at the NRC have reviewed l
2         the old procedures. If we interpret the procedures right, 3           there should have been -- this is long before you'were here --
2 the old procedures.
5       l 6                                         Do you have a citation for that, 7         Mr. Griffin?     It might be useful if we had the procedure 8         in front of us.
If we interpret the procedures right, 3
9                           MR. GRIFFIN:   The citatio io I1        l                                 Do you have that procedure with 12           you?
there should have been -- this is long before you'were here --
13                             MR. GRIFFIN:   I'm afraid I don't.
5 l
14                                         g Would it be useful if I got us l                                       .
6 Do you have a citation for that, 7
15         i a copy of that procedure?
Mr. Griffin?
l 16                             MR. GRIFFIN:   Well, it would be, but in 17           formulating my question,             what I'm really doing is I
It might be useful if we had the procedure 8
ja      j I am hoping to jog g s,..memory.
in front of us.
                                                            ..e   - - - , - *-
9 MR. GRIFFIN:
                                                                                  - = - . .   , , ,
The citatio io l
19                             If I am unsuccessful ,in that, thenj           probably
Do you have that procedure with I1 12 you?
                                                                                                      ~"
13 MR. GRIFFIN:
20
I'm afraid I don't.
            ~-
14 g Would it be useful if I got us l
                  "
15 i a copy of that procedure?
* c'annot answer my 'questiorr, "but in that           4:a s!
l 16 MR. GRIFFIN:
21         ;
Well, it would be, but in 17 formulating my question, what I'm really doing is I
22       ,
j I am hoping to jog g s, memory.
2, 25
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19 If I am unsuccessful,in that, thenj probably 20 "
* c'annot answer my 'questiorr, "but in that 4:a s!
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2                        THE WITNESS:   Well 3         !                                                  ''
THE WITNESS:
                          \                                                                         >
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10 t BY MR. GRIFFIN:
i 11                   0     If you will take my word for this i,
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25
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d               A         Let me clarify what you are asking.             When we 5       were getting ready to put this together, 6q                                         )
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7                           I don't know if that answers your question.
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10                 A         No, sir, I don't.
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23 24                                                                         ..
21 22 23 24 25 l
25     l             0         Can we move ahead now to the events as
0 Can we move ahead now to the events as l
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33 described for the record.by                                           I Are 2           you familiar with 3
33 described for the record.by I Are 2
4                    A. Vaguely, l
you familiar with 3
l A.
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7           or correcting the record.
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i 8        l                 Apparently, e
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10 12       l 13                     A. Well, being the 14                                                 , -s 15                     0   In this particular case, 16 17 ja     ,
7 or correcting the record.
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23                       A. I don't remember verbatim.           I remember, you 24             know, approximately what 25                       0   What were your instructions e
In this particular case, 16 17 ja A.
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Well, first. let me clarify one thing. g;--
Well, first. let me clarify one thing. g;--
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3 l at that time, when it fiLJL started, 5
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7                 A. All right.
6 g
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16                 0     Somebody, and do you know who, 17 jg                                       Do you know who did,that?
9 l
                                                          .  - - ~ - e-       - . . . . ,,  .
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10 11 12 13 Id 15 i
                                    *_ Personally, I don't know the individual.
16 0
19                                                                              I
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                            ~
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20 think Et was a joint ef fort. -              - * - - -
I A.
19 think Et was a joint ef fort. -
f.
f.
21      l           -Q     Whoever the individual was, do you know' what 22 department they were from?
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                                @      SU 25   .
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                ;                        -                                ..~                     -
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I                                                                         35 1
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                                                                                        ~
~
2 3                     A.         Well, no, 4         l             O         And the reason -- I'm asking you a question 5         l here.       IsthereasonthatIg 6       :
2 3
l                                                                         ]
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7       !              A.       Yeah.
Well, no, 4
8                       0         Okay. Now, back to your instructions.       Were 1
l O
9             you working on the belief at that time f io         l ii l
And the reason -- I'm asking you a question 5 l here.
12 13                       A.         I'm not sure of your question, Brooks, but 14 15       ;
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16 17 is      i                                                                                       .
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8 0
                              *O      -
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21               understood it.
Now, back to your instructions.
Were 1
9 you working on the belief at that time f l
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I'm not sure of your question, Brooks, but 14 15 16 17 i
is 19 7
i 20 -- l
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22 23
22 23 24 I was under the impression 25
* 24                                   I was under the impression 25
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36 1                 A. Well,
36 1
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4
12                 A. As far as I can remember, that was about what 13         it was like.
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i 15         Ithinkthethrustof[
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d                A       Well, I don't know how to answer.the question.
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6               A                                                   but I am hearing 7       things that are being presented, saying, 8
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6 A
                        '*                s                                                            .J n !               a tumumummuummmmmmi!                                          : .
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15                A       No, sir.
.J tumumummuummmmmmi!
l 16               0     "
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17               A 18               0       Okay.                                   ,
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m                                              . . . . .
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21   !          *O       Maybe I can expedite things here.             Let hne read s
j i
22             testimony. This is       This is not yours, and this 23        is the part where a portion of this relating to %. , testimony               .              1 24         as 25 j                        "Well,                                                                     j r
A No, sir.
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22 testimony.
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I 38 l
y                                  .
3        ,
                                              . I interpreted this -- I may have taNen some I
d              liberties here, but I interpreted that l
6
                                                                                                                  ]
7                        A      No, I don't believe that's correct.
8                                                I want to write down what page                    4 9              you are reading from, Brooks.
I l
I l
10                                 MR. GRIFFIN:     59,518.
38 y
I 11                                                 And some before and after that?
3 I interpreted this -- I may have taNen some I
12               I mean, it's a few pages before --
d liberties here, but I interpreted that l
,              13                                 MR. GRIFFIN:     I start on Page 517. I think 14               the interview of                     --
]
_              a 15                                                 I understand. I just wanted to 16      lknowwhatpagenumberyouwerereferencing.
6 7
17 . BY MR. GRIFFIN:
A No, I don't believe that's correct.
l 18                         D       Is it possible,             that 19 21                       'A-       I don't believe so, you know, and I'm trying 22               to recall.
8 I want to write down what page 4
23                           0       Did you
9 you are reading from, Brooks.
                                                                                                        ~
I l
u6                                                                           1.
10 MR. GRIFFIN:
25                           A       I don't know, truthfully.
59,518.
I 11 And some before and after that?
12 I mean, it's a few pages before --
13 MR. GRIFFIN:
I start on Page 517.
I think 14 the interview of a
15 I understand.
I just wanted to lknowwhatpagenumberyouwerereferencing.
16 17. BY MR. GRIFFIN:
l 18 D
Is it possible, that 19 21
'A-I don't believe so, you know, and I'm trying 22 to recall.
23 0
Did you
~
u6 1.
25 A
I don't know, truthfully.
r
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39 I                                       It could have been either?
39 I
2                         THE WITNESS:   It's possible, I think,"if we 4           BY MR. GRITTIN:
It could have been either?
5       i             C   And that's all we're talking about, E                             f 6
2 THE WITNESS:
7                      A   Yeah, and I. don't know if we had every one 8           of them or just certain ones.
It's possible, I think,"if we 4
9                     0   Help me along here.
BY MR. GRITTIN:
5 i
C And that's all we're talking about, E f
6 7
A Yeah, and I. don't know if we had every one 8
of them or just certain ones.
9 0
Help me along here.
10 '
10 '
11                                                                                                       l 12         f             A   No, sir.
11 l
13                       0   But
12 f
A No, sir.
13 0
But
:emunut i
:emunut i
15                       L 16                       0                             If you had to guess, and
15 L
;7             I'm asking just for a guess, 19 5 3 -'   6 ) Do yes have any idea?                           - *- .
16 0
If you had to guess, and
;7 I'm asking just for a guess, 19 5 3 -'6 ) Do yes have any idea?
f.
f.
;, )                    'A   ,
'A Ask that one more time.
Ask that one more time.                       I                       ;
I
  ;                      O   I am asking you f or an estimate
;, )
O I am asking you f or an estimate
:3
:3
.7                                           ?-                                     ..; .
.7
A   Nunber-wise, I'm not really sure, EroOks                   ut --      ;
? -
l                                                                     $
A Nunber-wise, I'm not really sure, EroOks ut l
1
1


i l                                                                                           40 1
i l
D         Would it be fifty, hundreds, or more?
40 1
2         ,
D Would it be fifty, hundreds, or more?
A          The area we are talking about is                                       !
2 A
                                                                                              ~
The area we are talking about is
3 4                       D         The reason I'm asking this question,                               is 5             that I'm trying to figure out if' i
~
6 a
3 4
7                      A.         No. I might say they are that high.
D The reason I'm asking this question, is 5
8                                                   That's what, approximately 18 9            inches there, % )
that I'm trying to figure out if' '
10                                 MR. GRIFFIN:       Is this somethir:? you have 11         ,    explored before?                                                               .,
i 6
12                                               ] No, no.       I want to make sure --
a 7
,          13             Having had some experience with transcripts, when you and 14                             hold your hands at various lengths from the table, 15 when we redd the transcript later, we are not going to have I
A.
16       l Very useful information.
No.
17                                 MR. GRIFFIN:       Yes. A substantial, 18 inches 18     ' high worth of               --
I might say they are that high.
                                                            ,_;....n 19 '                               THE WITNESS: A substantial number.
8 That's what, approximately 18 inches there, % )
^ ' ''                                                       ~~
9 10 MR. GRIFFIN:
                                                    '        '                  ~ * -- ' '                  ~ ~'
Is this somethir:? you have 11 explored before?
        , 20'] NY MR. GRIFFIN':' '
12
] No, no.
I want to make sure --
13 Having had some experience with transcripts, when you and 14 hold your hands at various lengths from the table, 15 when we redd the transcript later, we are not going to have I
16 l Very useful information.
17 MR. GRIFFIN:
Yes.
A substantial, 18 inches 18
' high worth of
,_;....n 19 '
THE WITNESS:
A substantial number.
20'] NY MR. GRIFFIN':' '
^
~~
~ * - ' '
1.
1.
I             ~
~ ~'
21 i
I
D       ,
~
I have got maybe a hundred here and thdy might I
D I have got maybe a hundred here and thdy might 21 i
22 ! be four inches high.                       So g had hundreds of them?
I 22 ! be four inches high.
23 :                     A           Well, when you take a package, you put it 24             together, you are talking about a manilla folder; and if 25 l you are talking about a height of 18 inches, yo,u might be 1
So g had hundreds of them?
                                                                                          ~
23 :
A Well, when you take a package, you put it 24 together, you are talking about a manilla folder; and if 25 l you are talking about a height of 18 inches, yo,u might be 1
~
2
2


1
1 41 i
                !                                                                        41 i
2 2
2 2           0       All right. Back on poinr, then, d'o #ybu linow 3
0 All right.
                !h 5           A.       I don't really know.
Back on poinr, then, d'o #ybu linow 3
6            G       At the time that you explained t f
!h 5
A.
I don't really know.
f G
At the time that you explained t 6
P 7
P 7
l 8
l 8
l 9             A.       Not really.
l 9
10 11                                                                         .
A.
12             O       Were you the one 13                                         a l
Not really.
14             A.       I explained what we were doing.       All right.
10 11 12 O
15 i                     '
Were you the one 13 a
14 A.
I explained what we were doing.
All right.
15 i
16 t
16 t
17   ,
17 i
i 18 I
18 I
19 20 **
19 20 **
21 j Were you with % t the *:.ime, 22   i or do you recall?
j Were you with % t the *:.ime, 21 22 i or do you recall?
23                       THE WITNESS:   No, because I think what it was, 24 25 The next l
23 THE WITNESS:
n g.
No, because I think what it was, 24 25 l
The next n
g.


i                                                                         42 2                                                       -
i 42 2
3                   BY MR. GRIFFIN:
3 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
4                         O     Do you recall giving 5l l
4 O
6 ;                                       .
Do you recall giving 5 l l
7
6 ;
                  !                  A. I don't recall saying anything specific, you a, know, to that nature.
A.
9 10                         0       Did you pointedly -- or express                     [
I don't recall saying anything specific, you 7
11       ,
a, know, to that nature.
12 13 A.      I guess what I explained to' 14 15 0      You didn't know whether''                             l 16         ,
9 10 0
A.     Not for all of them, no.
Did you pointedly -- or express
g 33          ,
[
O      You had some reason to believe that some of a
11 12 I guess what I explained to' A.
13 14 You didn't know whether''
0 15 16 A.
Not for all of them, no.
g You had some reason to believe that some of O
33 a
19
19
                                                                                              ~
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yn l
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                                                                ]
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I 21 I           A,      From what I saw when I initiall;' looked at --
I 21 I
g 23                                                                                       '
From what I saw when I initiall;' looked at --
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i 43 1
i 43 1
g       The reason I am spending so much time on this, 2                   is that there's just a strong difference here "in the 3           testimony.     You can't remember more than what you remember, 4             I realize that, but --
g The reason I am spending so much time on this, 2
l                                                                                          l 5   l                 A.     Well, I think the thing -- and I'm not trying 6            tojumpaheadorshortcutyouonanything.(
is that there's just a strong difference here "in the 3
i l
testimony.
7    l i
You can't remember more than what you remember, 4
I S
I realize that, but --
l 5
l A.
Well, I think the thing -- and I'm not trying tojumpaheadorshortcutyouonanything.(
6 i
l 7
i S
i I
i I
91 10
91 10
          "                                                                                            ]
]
12'                     O     The distinction I'm making here, if I under-13             stand, I'm telling you                           . testimony indicates i
12' O
14 l
The distinction I'm making here, if I under-13 stand, I'm telling you
15 l
. testimony indicates i
16 l
14 15 l
I 17 t
16 I
17 t
18
18
                            -                        . . . ~ . . .. . .
... ~....
                                                                          ~ - > ~ . . . . . . . . _
~ - > ~........
19
19 Not that was bei g aske
                          ~                                                                            --
~
- - -                          -        -  Not that         was bei g aske 20 -'l-21 o
20 -'l-21 o
23 24 E
23 24 E
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i 44       !
i 44 i
i 1 I That's the reason I'm asking these questions.
1 I
                                                                                        ~
That's the reason I'm asking these questions.
2       It's the reason I'm going into such detail.                                               i 3  -
~
If I understand your testimony, you are saying I
2 It's the reason I'm going into such detail.
4      that that was not your instructions, 5 !
i If I understand your testimony, you are saying 3
e      -3 7
I 4
that that was not your instructions, 5
-3 e
7
[usumunummmmmusumunuur 8'
[usumunummmmmusumunuur 8'
10 11   l           0       I understand what you are saying.                 Were there others present when                                                                     r 12 A.     Initially, I don't believe so.             When I say 13 ja  l initially,j   -
10 11 l
i 15 i
0 I understand what you are saying.
16 17 g     At some point during your instructions, M 1B
Were there r
                    .                        .    . .. . , ..    ~ - e.      . . . . . .          .
12 others present when 13 A.
19                                   s               ,
Initially, I don't believe so.
                        ".~                                         iL         kno 4 .,
When I say l initially,j ja i
g..    .      .      .                -Let's ask                                      .
15 i
21 D y u know who             is referring to wher. he l
16 17 g
22
At some point during your instructions, M 1B
            \ says THE WITNESS:   Yes.         The reason I am thinking 23                                                                         -
~ - e.
                                                                                              .          j a minute, two things come to mind.             I think before in my 24 25 deposition I had said, when they asked me if Ignew g -,~
19 s
we 2
". ~
-Let's ask iL kno 4.,
g..
D y u know who is referring to wher. he 21 l
\\ says 22 THE WITNESS:
Yes.
The reason I am thinking 23 j
a minute, two things come to mind.
I think before in my 24 deposition I had said, when they asked me if Ignew g,~
25 we 2
i
i


                        !                                                                                    45 I     '
45 I
at that time it didn't even hit home.
at that time it didn't even hit home.
2           BY MR. GRIFFIN:
2 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
3     I O       Oh, I see, so you are having some trouble here d
3 I
with some previous testimony?                                                         l i
O Oh, I see, so you are having some trouble here with some previous testimony?
5                    A.       Yeah, and when you asked me if 6     !*                                                I don't really remember.                 i
l d
i 5
A.
Yeah, and when you asked me if 6
I don't really remember.
i
:N i
:N i
9                     O       All right. Were you aware during that 10           particular evening that 11 12 1
9 O
                      ,                                                                                           i 15 lN3 i                       Were you ever made aware of I                                                                                           i 16                      A. g. - never exi, ssed it to me personally, and                         !
All right.
17 I
Were you aware during that 10 particular evening that 11 12 1
                                      .                  . . ~ . . . .. ..,~-e.-    . . ~ . . . . .   .        l c                     ..
i
19     j               0       Do you recall any conversation with anybody                       -
,lN3 15 i
                                                                            ?
Were you ever made aware of I
  '                                                                                                            ~~
i
        '',  20 ~         'tha't dvenincj                                                             .-
: g. - never exi, ssed it to me personally, and 16 A.
I 22                                   Do you remember any conversation regarding 23 MI                                                                .
17 l
24                       A.       I don't -- you know,                         g I
I
25     ,
..,~-e.-
nd just for the record, this thing was going down l
.. ~.....
i                                                                                               !
.. ~.....
I                                                                                               !
c 19 j
0 Do you recall any conversation with anybody
?
~~
20 ~
'tha't dvenincj I
22 Do you remember any conversation regarding MI 23 24 A.
I don't -- you know, g
25 nd just for the record, this thing was going down I
l i
I


46 l
46 l
1           for a period of time, 2                                            % name might have come 3           up in it because                                                 ]
1 for a period of time,
4                   0     Well, do you --
% name might have come 2
5                                       I'll note for the record, and I
3 up in it because
6   l maybe for your information, Brooks, if you review the ASLB 7           testimony, only                   among all the people, has testi -
]
8           fied or indicated j
4 0
10                         MR. GRIFFIN:   Okay.     Well, I must say I am i
Well, do you --
                  'l     not --
5 I'll note for the record, and I
1) 12 I ' m not -suretat's '--~ ~ ~
6 l maybe for your information, Brooks, if you review the ASLB 7
13                         MR. GRIFFIN:     I am a bit confused'~ab6ut that.
testimony, only among all the people, has testi -
la           BY MR. GRIFFIN:
8 fied or indicated j
15                   0     Did you give 16                                                                                       I No, m
10 MR. GRIFFIN:
            ,,                  x
Okay.
  .        ie      'assoa                         ..    . .
Well, I must say I am i
19 ell, I         m.                                                                   --
'l 1) not --
3, ..
I ' m not -suretat's '--~ ~ ~
21 22 l
12 13 MR. GRIFFIN:
22           <
I am a bit confused'~ab6ut that.
2'                                                                                           l 25        ;
la BY MR. GRIFFIN:
E                                     /
15 0
N'
Did you give I
                                                                                    .r l
16 No, m x
                      \                                                         s_
'assoa ie 19
: ell, I
m.
3,..
21 22 22 2'
E N'
25
/
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                                                                --  o&   L.                   -    .3 47 1                 A           I think what was discussed, 2
o&
L.
.3 47 1
A I think what was discussed, 2
3 immuuuuuuuuuuuuuuumur.]
3 immuuuuuuuuuuuuuuumur.]
5                   0           You don't recall it?
5 0
6                   A           -- I don't really recall it.
You don't recall it?
7                   0           Are you familiar with the fact that when 8                                                                                             '
6 A
e 10 11                 A             No, I didn't.
-- I don't really recall it.
12                 G             I presume you have learned that since?
7 0
13                 A             Yes, I saw it on one of your ones there.
Are you familiar with the fact that when 8
14   ,              O             Okay. That was i                                             -
e 10 11 A
15  l                 I don't suppose?
No, I didn't.
16                 E 17                                                                                              )
12 G
a 39
I presume you have learned that since?
                            !.Ms.
13 A
A*           Yes, sir.
Yes, I saw it on one of your ones there.
                  ' ~
14 O
                        -   ?O       -
Okay.
By*uhat meany?               ~ *- - *-
That was i
                                                                                      ~
l I don't suppose?
                                                                                    -~..
15 16 E
                                                                                                  '~
)
      , 20 ~-l-21
17
                            ~E                                                          I l                     ,
!.Ms.
i 22 I               O             No. I'm talking about by what means did you
a A*
                                        ~~
Yes, sir.
23   ,
39
l                              +
' ~
24                                                         .
?
25 A            You cal
~
                                                  ~
'~
l                                                                  .f
20 ~-l-O By*uhat meany?
~ *-
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21 l
i I
O No.
I'm talking about by what means did you 22
~~
23 l
+
24 A
You cal 25 l
.f
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48 1                   0   So that was l -
48 1
                                                                              ~'
0 So that was l
3                   A.                             yes.
~'
d                                         Can I ask a clarifying question?
3 A.
5 ,
yes.
MR. GRIFFIN:     Yes.
d Can I ask a clarifying question?
5 MR. GRIFFIN:
Yes.
6 I
6 I
]
B l
B l
                                                                  ]
9 l
9                        THE WITNESS:     Yeah,   I wouldn't say it's a l
THE WITNESS:
10           common understanding to them. You can. If you 11                                                                         and e
: Yeah, I wouldn't say it's a 10 common understanding to them.
12 is   l 14 15     ,
You can.
1 16           BY MR. GRIFFIN:
If you 11 and 12 e
g7                   0   Well, I'm telling you that                         ,
l is 14 15 1
18           testimony was that 19  l                                             '
16 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
h l'    ..  --                                                  ..        . . . .
g7 0
jo --        -    -    A. -
Well, I'm telling you that 18 testimony was that l
Fo'r the record, that is tct ely wrongpfbecause 21                                                     ;
h 19 l
22                     @
Fo'r the record, that is tct ely wrongpfbecause A.
23                                         3                                 '
jo --
i 24 A. Yes, sir, only because that's a standard --
21 22 23 3
                                                                            ~
i A.
O     I'm not asking you because it's standard.             I'm 25        ;
Yes, sir, only because that's a standard --
f
24
~
25 O
I'm not asking you because it's standard.
I'm f


49 l
49 l
1 asking     you because you have a recollection --
1 asking you because you have a recollection --
2                 A.       Yeah.
2 A.
5                           Okay.
Yeah.
0 6
5 0
Iesmuummmmmmmm6 1
Okay.
7    i           A.
Iesmuummmmmmmm6 6
I was told the same thing.
1 7
B                 g       Did i
i A.
9     l             A.       I don't personally know, because once the 10         individuals worked the packages, it was -- you know, 11 12 13                 O         Let me ask you kind of an all-encompassing I
was told the same thing.
14     : question here.         Are you aware -- in that this thing has been 15         explored by so many other people before I got to you today.
I B
l 16     i Are you aware of the fact that your testimony is in conflict 17         on some of these points that I guess I have been drawing 18         .out --                                                     .
g Did i
                    ;        .                      .      . w.. .. . 7% -.-       . . . . . .            ..
9 l
19                                               With who,is the conflict?
A.
20-       'Bk MR.'GRIFFINi'         '      '    ~ ' '         '    " ''        "'~   -
I don't personally know, because once the 10 individuals worked the packages, it was -- you know, 11 12 13 O
                                                                                                            ~~
Let me ask you kind of an all-encompassing I
21                 'O     ,
14
                                            -- particularly related to 22   l testimony, and I would say                                   estimony in some 1
: question here.
23         cases. Of course, not all the people knew all things, but 24         I personally think I see some differences here, and the 25         differences are points that I choose to focus on.
Are you aware -- in that this thing has been 15 explored by so many other people before I got to you today.
l 16 i Are you aware of the fact that your testimony is in conflict 17 on some of these points that I guess I have been drawing 18
.out --
. 7% -.-
w....
19 With who,is the conflict?
20- 'Bk MR.'GRIFFINi'
~ ' '
"'~
~~
21
'O
-- particularly related to 22 l testimony, and I would say estimony in some 1
23 cases.
Of course, not all the people knew all things, but 24 I personally think I see some differences here, and the 25 differences are points that I choose to focus on.
l a---
l a---


i                               -
50 i
50 1
i I can't make you remember any more than what 1
i
2 you know, and that's all I'm askinc for, except wh'ed'I ask 3
                '                I can't make you remember any more than what 2       you know, and that's all I'm askinc for, except wh'ed'I ask 3     .you an opinion.
.you an opinion.
But I'll just ask you the question:               Are you 4   f l                                                                                             I 5   ' aware of the fact that your testimony is in substantial 6
f But I'll just ask you the question:
conflict on these points with other people that were in and                               i 7       out or present or heard your comments or have been interviewed                           l l
Are you 4
g      or have been witnesses on these same issues?                                             l t
l I
A     I don't know what's in conflict, because I 9    ,
5
I I
' aware of the fact that your testimony is in substantial conflict on these points with other people that were in and i
10   l don't know what everyone else has said.
6 7
11                O     Okay.
out or present or heard your comments or have been interviewed l
                                                    , If you would like to focus on 12 a particular point, I would be happy to le                               address 13 14 it.
l or have been witnesses on these same issues?
                                                                                                              )
l g
              ;                    MR. GRIFFIN:         Well, I'm not going to ask him 15 i
t 9
16  l to go back and research everybody's testimony.
A I don't know what's in conflict, because I I
I think it's fair to say that 17 18 !
I 10 l don't know what everyone else has said.
1, 3-emmmmmmmmmmmmet.-..
O Okay.
as testified that 21   !                  ,
11 12
22   .
, If you would like to focus on a particular point, I would be happy to le address 13 it.
23 u                                         -.
14
3 25                                                                    .5
)
            ;                                                                y em
MR. GRIFFIN:
Well, I'm not going to ask him 15 i
l to go back and research everybody's testimony.
16 I think it's fair to say that 17 18 1,
3-emmmmmmmmmmmmet.-..
as testified that 21 22 23 u
3
.5 25 y
em


51 1                       MR. GRIFFIN:     Maybe I misunderstood,             ]
51 1
2         but I thought it was more.than 'that.
MR. GRIFFIN:
3 4                                       Perhaps that was included as well.
Maybe I misunderstood,
5         I am clear that 6                                     ;
]
7                       MR. GRIFFIN:
2 but I thought it was more.than ' hat.
e Immuuuu --9Elulull'Euummuunne 9     ibut I don't know that that's a particularly crucial point, i
t 3
10     'J.n my Judgment.
4 Perhaps that was included as well.
l                                   Well, I think               here 11 MR. GRIFFIN:
5 I am clear that 6
l raised the crucial question.       Were your 12 13 F
7 MR. GRIFFIN:
Immuuuu --9Elulull'Euummuunne e
9 ibut I don't know that that's a particularly crucial point, i
10
'J.n my Judgment.
l MR. GRIFFIN:
Well, I think here 11 l
raised the crucial question.
Were your 12 13 F
14 15
14 15
                                                                                        ~
~
THE WITNESS:     It has 16 1
THE WITNESS:
17 BY MR. GRIFFIN:
It has 16 1
                      )
BY MR. GRIFFIN:
Well,                                            But 18                 0
17
                            -                       ....~.....-y     - o. . . . . . . .
)
jp        you have'a'c' lear recollection that 2i       ;                                                                        2 22 A.     Uh-huh.
But 18 0
0       Okay.
: Well,
23 Well, I think we could all point 24 25       ,
- o.
I
....~.....-y
; you have'a'c' lear recollection that jp 2
2i A.
Uh-huh.
22 0
Okay.
23 Well, I think we could all point 24 25 I


af &                             . . . _ . .      .
af &
i                                                                                         52 i
i 52 i
i 3   l                     MR. GRIFFIN:     I may be the only one here that I
i 3
4   l sees a difference in'the testimony.
l MR. GRIFFIN:
5                                         No, I see a difference in the 6       testimony, but I don't know that it's --
I may be the only one here that I
4 l sees a difference in'the testimony.
5 No, I see a difference in the 6
testimony, but I don't know that it's --
p l
p l
7 l                     MR. GRIFFIN:     It's crucial to me.
7 l
8                                         I think that you have gotten from 9
MR. GRIFFIN:
what%has--
It's crucial to me.
10   ,                      MR. GRIFFIN:     I believe I have.
8 I think that you have gotten from what%has--
I 11  'BY MR. GRIFFIN:
9 10 MR. GRIFFIN:
12                   0,           s contained in                               estimony,
I believe I have.
  ,.          13       before                               -- this is             testimony.             Before 14
I
* l
'BY MR. GRIFFIN:
          .__S 16 37                                       ; Do you have             testimony on that I             ja       . point?
11 12 0,
                                                      ..:    .. . < - - ~ -- e - - - ~ . . . . .      , , . ..
s contained in
39                         MR. GRIFFIN:     Yes, I do.
: estimony, 13 before
                                                                    ?
-- this is testimony.
                          '                                                                    ~
Before 14 l
.__S 16 37
; Do you have testimony on that I
ja
. point?
... < - - ~ -- e - - - ~.....
39 MR. GRIFFIN:
Yes, I do.
?
3g --
3g --
This.is a question to                 m ,-   -
This.is a question to m,-
                                                                                              . i ,.,   .
~
                                  ~
. i,.,
21 22   sumummmmmanummmanus 23                           " ANSWER:                                             yes.
~
24                           " QUESTION:   Di 25                         .
21 sumummmmmanummmanus 22 23
3 I
" ANSWER:
yes.
24
" QUESTION:
Di 25 3
I


i 53 1
i 53 1
* ANSWER:
* ANSWER:
w:
2 3
2 3
w:
l "OUESTION:
l.
Where did you go?
                                    "OUESTION:     Where did you go?
]
4     j i
4 j
                                    " ANSWER:
" ANSWER:
                                                                                      ]
i' 5
5                        " QUESTION:                                               ,
" QUESTION:
6k   i b                                                                 -.
6k b
7                       " ANSWER:     I went in and talked tot g       abt,ut what was happening.
i 7
9                       "OUESTION:     And briefly, what did you tell 10 11
" ANSWER:
                                    " ANSWER:     Well, 12 l
I went in and talked tot g
abt,ut what was happening.
9 "OUESTION:
And briefly, what did you tell 10
" ANSWER:
: Well, 11 12 l
i l
i l
.        13     f i
f 13 i
14 15                                                                                         j 16 l
14 15 j
                                      "OUESTION:     Was anyone else in the room with 17   ,
l "OUESTION:
                                      " ANSWER:
Was anyone else in the room with 16 17
" ANSWER:
18
18
                                                          ..          - e .- ' . . . . . .         '
- e.- '......
                                      " QUESTION: . While
.. ~......,~ ' talking to. " ' ' ~
                                                    . ~... you
While you were
                                                            . ..were
" QUESTION:
                                                                  ,~ ' talking to . " ' ' ~
39 d M.a g one c,ome,in?
39
{
  - . . -                          d M.a g one c,ome,in?             ,    , ,,
20..
{                                                                       ,,      ,
" ANSWER:
20 ..
came 21 22 ; in.
                            .        " ANSWER:                                             came 21 22   ; in.
"OUESTION:
                                      "OUESTION:     About how long had you been in 23 24 to the best of your recollection?'
About how long had you been in 23 to the best of your recollection?'
                !                      " ANSWER:                                                             (
24
25                                       -
" ANSWER:
                                                                                    .a
25
                                                                                . T.
.a
. T.
I I
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i i                                                                               54 l
i 54 i
I                      "OUESTION:     What was said when y
l I
3                       " ANSWER:   Well, first, l
"OUESTION:
4,                                 C 2
What was said when y
I 5                       Meaning 6                                                   was the question.
3 l
7     :                " ANSWER:
" ANSWER:
8                             So I thought --
Well, first, C
                  ' i 10 11
4, 2
                '2                                                                 3
I 5
                >>                      sumuseummmmmusummer                                                   _
Meaning 6
14                       I am telling you I talked to 15         sai     didn't make those statements.
was the question.
16                                   ,
7
for the record, in 17           testimony, t
" ANSWER:
8 So I thought --
i 10 11 3
'2 sumuseummmmmusummer 14 I am telling you I talked to 15 sai didn't make those statements.
16 for the record, in 17 testimony, t
19 In fact, I think it reflects thE
19 In fact, I think it reflects thE
                , o --   .dontraly.  .  . . .  .      .-.                  .. . .
.dontraly.
l 21 MR. GRIFFIN:     Anyway, I'll carry that a, step l
, o --
22    'further. I talked to                 3and % said, 23 T         .
l MR. GRIFFIN:
24                                                                   ..
Anyway, I'll carry that a, step l
25                       THE WITNESS:     Yeah.                   -1 s                                 1 7
21 3and % said,
                                                                                .h' v
'further.
I talked to 22 23 T
24 25 THE WITNESS:
Yeah.
-1
.s 1
7
.h' v
I
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l                                                                                       55 1                                       j I also recall that 2     didn't recall that conversation.                                                .
l 55 1
3                           MR. GRIFFIN:   What?
j I also recall that 2
d           .                              I believe that the record also 5     reflects that in his interview                             did not recall 6     any such conversation.
didn't recall that conversation.
7                           MR. GRIFFIN:   Okay. I think                           stated 8         was in and out.
3 MR. GRIFFIN:
9                                               testimony was                 was there
What?
                                                            }
d I believe that the record also 5
10     and                 testimony was     didn't remember.
reflects that in his interview did not recall 6
any such conversation.
7 MR. GRIFFIN:
Okay.
I think stated 8
was in and out.
9
}
testimony was was there 10 and testimony was didn't remember.
I 11 j BY MR. GRIFFIN:
I 11 j BY MR. GRIFFIN:
12               O             Do you recall
12 O
  .              13                                     Not the date.
Do you recall 13 Not the date.
14               A             Truthfully, I don't.
14 A
15             O             Doyouremembernoting(
Truthfully, I don't.
16 i
Doyouremembernoting(
                                      )
15 O
17             A.           I didn't make note of it, when it ended, because 18  f I -- -
16
                                                            . . . ~ ..  . . - - - . . -
)
0 Did they                               to you or did 19 2                     -
i 17 A.
I didn't make note of it, when it ended, because f I --
18
... ~.
19 0
Did they to you or did 2
20 ~
20 ~
                                                                                                      ,~, ;, . _
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21              'A         ,
'A No, because I believe 21 22 23 I didn't hear anything derogatory coming back, 24 t
No, because I believe 22   ,
25 so I figured it was over. g had what % needed.
23 I didn't hear anything derogatory coming back, 24 t
l!
25     so I figured it was over. g had what % needed.                                               l l!
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n n                                                 ,
n n I
I 56 1                           0         Let me go back in time prior to 2                                                                       ;
56 1
Back wherf l
0 Let me go back in time prior to Back wherf 2
i l
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6 i
6 i
7 l                               Is that why I
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8!
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9 i                           A.         Well, let nie clarify, I think, because at one 10 n1 m % sumummmmmmmmmms3 u                                      [                                                                         -]
9 i A.
14           The reason I was even involved, u
Well, let nie clarify, I think, because at one 10 n1 m % sumummmmmmmmmms3
[
-]
u 14 The reason I was even involved, u
u 17 le ymmmmmmmmmmes]
u 17 le ymmmmmmmmmmes]
t                                                       *
t 3o--l -
                            ~
I a case %1ookIG,5 at-
Ict a case %1ookIG,5 at-3o--l -                                    It wasn't, then, 21 22        -                                                                                       '
~
23       tumuusurl 7g                             A.       Well, I don't   know ho** p 6escribed it,            ,
ct It wasn't, then, 21 -
if                   l 25              said, M           -
22 tumuusurl 23 know ho** p 6escribed it, 7g A.
                                                                                                        .c                           -
Well, I don't if said, M 25 1
1
.c J
_ . . . - .                                _.______._______._____.____________.____.__________________________J


at     &                              N l                                                                                         57 1       but     said, 2               0             Are you aware that prior to the realization 3 l of this problem, or I guess when the problem was realized, 4       if I understand correctly, I
at N
l 57 1
but
: said, 2
0 Are you aware that prior to the realization 3 l of this problem, or I guess when the problem was realized, 4
if I understand correctly, I
b 6
b 6
7 8               A.                 had mentioned, you know, that they were 9       going to pick it up, and I don't remember where on the form; 10  t    but g said, 11               CL           Did     ever convey to you the problems 12 13 14 l
7 8
15 16 p    l                                           Again, Mr. Griffin, I don't think l
A.
          )g ithat's --
had mentioned, you know, that they were 9
                      ~
going to pick it up, and I don't remember where on the form; but g said, 10 t
j9 MR. GRIFFIN:- SDmethidg         R rfo'ws ? * ' - -   - . ,      -
11 CL Did ever convey to you the problems 12 13 14 l
                          --                              No, it's'an unfair characterization
15 16 l
- . . . 2D _. . . . - . .                    ,      , . . .          . ,, ,,            ,,,        _ ---
Again, Mr. Griffin, I don't think p
21 f what,                       said,                     tatement, I think, g        wasquitec1'earinsaying{
l ithat's --
                                      ~~
)g MR. GRIFFIN:- SDmethidg R rfo'ws ? * ' - -
23 MR. GRIFFIN:       Did I attribute that~to                 -
~
24 If I did, I'm sorry.       I am not spepking in 25                         ;
j9 No, it's'an unfair characterization 2D _.... -.
                \
f what,
w 5
: said, tatement, I think, 21 wasquitec1'earinsaying{
g
~~
23 MR. GRIFFIN:
Did I attribute that~to 24 If I did, I'm sorry.
I am not spepking in 25
\\
5 w
I
I


58 1             reference to                   I am speaking in reference to 2                                                 .. - -
58 1
3 testified this morning 4    :                                                    ]                                     .
reference to I am speaking in reference to 2
j I                                                                                                     '
testified this morning 3
5    l                       MR. GRIFFIN:   Okay.
]
i 6    j BY MR. GRIFFIN:                                                                               I Let me refer to an unnamed reviewer, other                           !
4 j
7     ;                O                                                                            l i
I 5
s             than                 and ask you if you were ever made aware                         j1 9             of the problem among the reviewers, at least one or two re-                           !
l MR. GRIFFIN:
viewers,                                                                             j 10 11 12                                                                                                   i
Okay.
          '                                                                                            i j
i BY MR. GRIFFIN:
13                                                                                                    .
6 j
14 l             A. No, sir. I don't really remember it being                             1 15 16         , expressed.                                                                           ,     E 17                     0     The reason I asked is because there was a i
I O
33           .pe,riod of time here 19       ,
Let me refer to an unnamed reviewer, other l
g..
7 i
I 21 I  just wondered if you -- my reason for asking 22 i
s than and ask you if you were ever made aware j1 9
is to find out whether you were brought into the problem-                                 p 23 i  73 solving part of that?
of the problem among the reviewers, at least one or two re-j 10
A. No, because the only thing is, I'm not xeven 25         r
: viewers, 11 12 i
                                                                                  ..w j                                                               [. -
i 13 j
                                                                              .33 I
14 l
A.
No, sir.
I don't really remember it being 1
15 16
, expressed.
, E 17 0
The reason I asked is because there was a i
33
.pe,riod of time here 19 g..
I 21 just wondered if you -- my reason for asking I
22 i
is to find out whether you were brought into the problem-p 23 solving part of that?
i 73 A.
No, because the only thing is, I'm not even 25 x
r
..w j
[. -
.33 I


L i
L 59 i
59 I          sure that this form wasn't generated 3
sure that this form wasn't generated I -
d I I
3 Well, I think I understand what your knowledge I
(L Well, I think I understand what your knowledge 5            on the subject is, and I will leave it at that.
d I (L
6 Let me touch on something else that you are 7 :
on the subject is, and I will leave it at that.
not directly connected with, but I just want to know if you I
5 Let me touch on something else that you are 6
I have any knowledge.
not directly connected with, but I just want to know if you 7 :
Bl 9
I I
    . 10 11                              Let me see if I can find a date on that.
B l have any knowledge.
I believe you said this morning 12 13        jit was                                                                                   '
9 10 Let me see if I can find a date on that.
11 I believe you said this morning 12 jit was 13 I think there's a very good chance MR. GRIFFIN:
15 Why don't
<h. might be able to give me a one-word answer.-
16 we try it that way?
17 I'llaskmyquestionthatway,andif%knows l.
18
- > ~......
- ~...
- m t
1 anything about it, then you all can --
19
-Well, I think it's. 5 air tp.,give - --
30*';
l
}
'Ihi@an'opportunitytoreviewthedocument.
21 r
MR. GRIFFIN:
MR. GRIFFIN:
I think there's a very good chance 15 Why don't 16          <h. might be able to give me a one-word answer.-
17                  we try it that way?
l.
I'llaskmyquestionthatway,andif%knows 18                                                                        - > ~ . . . . . .            _
                      ,                                              - ~... . - m                        .      _
t                ,.    ,
19      1 anything about it, then you all can* --
                                                    '                  -Well, I think it's. 5 air tp.,give - --
30*';                                      -
l
                                                                                                            }
21            'Ihi@an'opportunitytoreviewthedocument.
What document?
What document?
r i
i 22 I
MR. GRIFFIN:
23 MR. GRIFFIN:
22 I
Okay, I will certainly do that.
23                                                                                           <
24 I am just trying to find the point of reference @ere to see 4
MR. GRIFFIN:     Okay, I will certainly do that.
25 t
24 25 I am just trying to find the point of reference.,:@ere             4 to see t


l i                                                                       60     ,
l i
l                                                                             '
60 l
1         if it preceded or was after.
1 if it preceded or was after.
2                                       . I keep reaching for 3         that we have before us, I think.
2
4     ;                  MR. GRIFFIN:   I don't think that references 5         it,       ,
. I keep reaching for 3
j 6      l                                 No, it does not.
that we have before us, I think.
7      i         GRIFFIN:
4 MR. GRIFFIN:
I don't think that references 5
it, j
l No, it does not.
6 i
GRIFFIN:
lBY MR.
lBY MR.
B                 O       Iamtellingyouthatapparently{
7 Iamtellingyouthatapparently{
9       :
B O
I 10 1
9 I
11 12                           Maybe if I can show you a copy, if I can find
10 1
.            13     Ia copy of it here, you can tell me whether you had any 14           knowledge or anything to do with               or its disposition, i
11 12 Maybe if I can show you a copy, if I can find 13 Ia copy of it here, you can tell me whether you had any 14 knowledge or anything to do with or its disposition, i
15         or anything, just any reference to it.
15 or anything, just any reference to it.
A       All right.
l A
16     l 17    ,                                  For the record, you are showing i
All right.
16 For the record, you are showing 17 i
IO l
IO l
1 E f.
1 E.
                                                                                                ''~~~
''~~~
  ~ ~ ''
~
THE WITNESSs 'No.
~ ''
20 ~;
20 ~;
THE WITNESSs 'No.          - *- .
f 21 BY MR.' GRIFFIN:
21           BY MR.' GRIFFIN:                                               f l
f l
22     ;            O       That didn't pass through your hands by then?
22 O
23    l             A       Well --
That didn't pass through your hands by then?
24                   g       Secause this 23 < m,mammmmuunupi                                                 ,
l A
                                                                              -d I                                                         M l
Well --
23 24 g
Secause this m,mammmmuunupi 23 <
-d I
M l


g_. ..                                                                            - ..
l g_...
l i
i l
l                                                                                    61 I       '
61 I
A.           The only reason I'm not aware of it or familiar
A.
                                                                                                    '~
The only reason I'm not aware of it or familiar
2 . is 3I                    O           Right.
'~
l                       b 5' &   ,
2. is 3 I O
6     ).
Right.
O           The only reason I, asked the question was that l
b l
8 9
5' &
                    \m'
6 )
                    !                A.           Sure.
O The only reason I, asked the question was that
I 10      l               0           To make sure I understand your preceding 11           testimony, I believe it was that during this whole affair i
.\\m' 8
12           of 13 Id j                                                                                           1 15 l
9 A.
16 17 i
Sure.
h                          .,                                                            i 18                                                                             ,
I l
_ , ~ . , .- .c % -.- - . . . . . .      ,,....
0 To make sure I understand your preceding 10 11 testimony, I believe it was that during this whole affair i
19                       A.           No, sir.
12 of 13 Id j
I.              ..
15 l
16 h
17 i
i 18
_, ~.,.-.c % -.- -......
19 A.
No, sir.
I.
30--
30--
MRt GRIFFIN.:               do you have-any 2pmments?-~
MRt GRIFFIN.:
                                  ~
do you have-any 2pmments?-~
21                                               ,
21 No, I think not.
No, I think not.         If I could,
If I could,
                !      I would like to take a short break and go over a point or 22 23    ltwo with'                             l 24                                   MR. GRIFFIN:     For clarification?
~
25                                                   Yes.                           p j                           -            -                                    .
22 I would like to take a short break and go over a point or ltwo with' l
                                                                                          . ?..
23 24 MR. GRIFFIN:
For clarification?
25 Yes.
p j
. ?..
u
u


i                                                                         62 i
i 62 i
1 MR. GRIFFIN:   Sure.
MR. GRIFFIN:
(Recess taken.)         i-2 3                     MR. GRIFFIN:   Back on the record at 2:57.
Sure.
4     !BY MR. GRIFFIN:
1 2
5             0           do you have any clarifying remarks, you 6       or         regarding your testimony here today, or anything 7     ,you would like to add?
(Recess taken.)
i-3 MR. GRIFFIN:
Back on the record at 2:57.
4
!BY MR. GRIFFIN:
5 0
do you have any clarifying remarks, you 6
or regarding your testimony here today, or anything 7,you would like to add?
i 8
i 8
L       Personally, I don't have anything else.
L Personally, I don't have anything else.
9                                     No.
9 No.
10     l                 MR. GRIFFIN:   Nothing, okay.
10 l
I 11 BY MR. GRIFFIN:                                               ,
MR. GRIFFIN:
l         0           have--I-threatened you in any manner or 12 13 offered you any rewards in return for this statement?
Nothing, okay.
14 A       No, sir.
I BY MR. GRIFFIN:
15 0       Have you given this statement freely and
11 l
          ' voluntarily?
0 have--I-threatened you in any manner or 12 offered you any rewards in return for this statement?
16 A       Yes, I have.
13 A
No, sir.
14 0
Have you given this statement freely and 15
' voluntarily?
16 A
Yes, I have.
17 l
17 l
O       I would like to say that I know that you and, 18   i
O I would like to say that I know that you and, 18 i
                                                  '                ~
of cours'e,(% also, fiabelo'n'e ~throlgh 'this at 'g'reat ~~ ~ ~
39        of cours'e,(% also, fiabelo'n'e ~throlgh 'this at 'g'reat ~~ ~ ~
~
l 20
39 l!. length 7en apparpntly -- I don't know how many times,you have...
        !. length 7en apparpntly -- I don't i
20 i
                                        -    know how many- --  times ,you
been through this, the issue and everything; but the Commission 21 l has a need to know the testimony and that is beyond the bounds 22 f the ASLB because we are not 3.n'a' position to rely on their 23 inquiries.
                                                                    -            have.. .
24 I appreciate your putting up with all'this 25 uf
21 been through this, the issue and everything; but the Commissio n l has a need to know the testimony and that is beyond the bounds 22 f the ASLB because we are not 3.n'a' position to rely on their 23   ,
inquiries.
24 25  :
I appreciate your putting up with all'this uf


              !                                                                                                                                                  63 1     and appearing here today.
63 1
2                                     Is there anything further that you would care 3       to add to the record?
and appearing here today.
4   ,
2 Is there anything further that you would care 3
A.     NJ, I don't have anything else.
to add to the record?
4 A.
NJ, I don't have anything else.
I i
I i
5  j                                   MR. GRIFFIN:   How about you?
j MR. GRIFFIN:
l 6                                                     Only that I take it that 7   ,will be given a copy of                           transcript to review and sign?
How about you?
I a l                                   MR. GRIFFIN:   Yes. I'm glad you reminded me i
5 l
9                                     You, personally, are entitled to a copy of 10         the transcript.                   What I need to do to meet NRC's policy is 11 iI need for you to give me an address, like a home address 12 or something, where I can send this to you, to be received I
6 Only that I take it that 7
13         by you on your signature.
,will be given a copy of transcript to review and sign?
14    I                                 You are entitled to it.               What you do with it I
I a
15     ,is up to you.                     This is an interview between you and the NRC.
l MR. GRIFFIN:
16      ,                                THE WITNESS:   I see.
Yes.
37    ;
I'm glad you reminded me i
I believe what Mr. Griffin is i
9 You, personally, are entitled to a copy of 10 the transcript.
What I need to do to meet NRC's policy is iI need for you to give me an address, like a home address 11 12 or something, where I can send this to you, to be received I
13 by you on your signature.
I You are entitled to it.
What you do with it 14 I
15
,is up to you.
This is an interview between you and the NRC.
THE WITNESS:
I see.
16 I believe what Mr. Griffin is 37 i
18 trying to say is you don't have to share it with me --
18 trying to say is you don't have to share it with me --
l t           .                              ... ~ . , .. m - > ~ . - . . ~ . .                                                            , , _ .
t
19 MR. GRIFFIN:   Unless you want to.
... ~.,.. m - > ~. -.. ~..
but I think the recorE phoul1:1
l MR. GRIFFIN:
                                                                                                                                                                    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Unless you want to.
0' 50     j' -                  -
19
l 21 be clea'r that you also have the right to share it with me.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
MR. GRIFFIN:   Off the record.
but I think the recorE phoul1:1 0'
22     ,
50 j'
23 (The investigative deposition 24 was concluded at 3:05 p.m.)
l be clea'r that you also have the right to share it with me.
1 25        ///                                                                                                                             ,
21 MR. GRIFFIN:
W j
Off the record.
l t
22 (The investigative deposition 23 was concluded at 3:05 p.m.)
24 1
///
25 j
W l
t


(
(
l l
l l
l 1         STATE OF TEXAS           )
l 1
2   ' COUNTY OP TARRANT             )
STATE OF TEXAS
1 3
)
2
' COUNTY OP TARRANT
)
3 1
1 4
1 4
I, Gay E. Denton, a Notary Public in Tarrant County 1
I, Gay E. Denton, a Notary Public in Tarrant County 1 for the State of Texas, do hereby certify that the foregoing 5
5 for the State of Texas, do hereby certify that the foregoing 6     lanswersinresponsetotheinterrogatoriesasindicatedwere made before me by the witness,                       iafter said witness 7
lanswersinresponsetotheinterrogatoriesasindicatedwere 6
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7 made before me by the witness, iafter said witness J
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          /      33 Given under my hand and seal of office on this the ja        l24thdayofOctober,A.D. 1984.
l truth and nothing but the truth; and the above and foregoing 9
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i h is a full, true, correct and complete transcript of the pro-10 ceedings had at the time of taking said investigative deposi-j) tion.
15 WA     -
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33 l24thdayofOctober,A.D. 1984.
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Gay El Denton,     Notary    Public in Tarrant Counry for the                         j 17                                                   State of Texas, 18
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Latest revision as of 03:15, 23 May 2025

Partially Withheld Transcript of 841018 Investigative Deposition in Glen Rose,Tx
ML20234B183
Person / Time
Site: Comanche Peak  Luminant icon.png
Issue date: 10/18/1984
From:
NRC COMMISSION (OCM)
To:
Shared Package
ML20234B159 List:
References
FOIA-86-180, FOIA-86-A-221 NUDOCS 8707020266
Download: ML20234B183 (141)
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Text

{{#Wiki_filter:--.. i l 1 I l UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 . NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 i. d TEXAS UTILITIES GENERATING I COMPANY, et al. I 5 I Docket Nos. 50-445 (Comanche Peak Steam Electric I 50-446 6 Station, Units l~and 2) 7 l f 8 QA Meeting Room ' Administration Building 9 Comanche Peak Steam Electric Station 10 t Glen Rose, Texas l 11 Thursday, October 18, 1984 12 INVESTIGATIVE DEPOSITION OF' 13 I 14 l PRESENT: 15 On Behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission: 16 j H. BROOKS GRIFFIN, Investigator U. S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission 17 Region IV 611 Ryan Plaza Drive, Suite 1000 18 Arlington, Texas 76011 ~ 19 l On Behalf off J.' i ? 20 l ~,. a l s 21 i ,I 22 I 23 24 8707020266 870625 PDR FDIA GARDE 86-A-221 PDR 25 I EXHIBIT (111 l ^ -

I 2 \\, I i PROCEEDINGS 2 9:13 a.m. I 3 MR. GRIFFIN: For the record,.this'is an inter-d view of Is that. correct? w 5 ] Correct. Who is employed by[1 6 MR. GRIFFIN: 7-l 1 That's correct. B 9 l MR. GRIFFIN: The location of this interview 10 is the Comanche Peak Steam Electric Station, and the date 11 is I Presentatthisintervieware{ }and 12 13 This interview is being transcribed by a court 14 15 reporter, and also, I am H. Brooks Griffin, representing the NRC in this interview. 16 'if you will please rise, I need to 17 swear you to the contents of your testimony., 18 ... ~.... -o. 19 Whereupon," yn }... ( having first 'een duly sworn to tell the truth, the S/ hole j r 21 i truth and nothing b'it the truth, was examined and testified f 22 J 23 on his oath as follows: i MR. GRIFFIN: Before we start with the reasons

a why we are here to talk today, I would like to ask you a 25

3 1 few questions about representation of you here. ~ EXAMIbATION 2 1- '3 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 4 Q I will tell you at the outset that under the i 5 NRC's policies, we observe the f act, or we operate under a policy that anybody we interview is entitled to a repre-6 7 sentative. 8 A That's correct. 9 D' That can be anybody. It can be somebody you 10 work with. It can be your mother; it can be legal. counsel; 11 it can be anybody you care. 1. In this instance, I presume that you'have. 12 chosen'

}isthatcorrect?

33 A

Yes, will be my personal representative.

14 ] I would like to MR. GRIFFIN: 1 15 a direct a few questions to you. You are representing 16 a s (. personal representative for the purposes-17 of this interview? 18 Yes, I am. 39 +00. GRIFFIN: Do you represent any other part'ies 2'O - to the' Comanche Peak hearings? 21 , is not a party to 22 J the Comanche Peak hearings. 23 MR. GRIFFIN: I know, but he works for a company 24 that is. 25 ~. t I.. t

,+ g 7 3 -.. - s 4 1 Ebasco is not a party to the 2 hearings, either. 3 I have told' ]andasyou'know, 4 Mr. Griffin,Fv ] I have informed] ] 3 r of that representation. 6-As you also know,' 7 u __ 8 9 Andasyoualsoknow,{ 10 11 l .) ~12 I have explained all this to ~~~ -~'~ 13 jg I have apprisedl, that it is conceivable that a potential 15 16 I have told.. that if I perceive that any )7 g p ssibility of that exists or even the appearance of that l 18 .. ~. exists, I*will immediately cause this interview to be ), terminated.. I will explain the situation-tof] 2'O l and that I will abide by whatever wishes ( 1 has concerning 21 my continued representation of, 22 l l , I greatly appreciate MR. GRIFFIN: 23 I the fact that you are aware of the Commission's needs in 24 l exploring these relationships and your understanding of the 25

5 1 propriotary interests of the Commission in making sure that 2 ..is properly represented and that - has an under-j_ 3 standing of your other commitments. M. 4 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 1 5 7 q g A Tes, sir. 6 7 0 Wouldyoutellmewhat{ }standsfor? Itstandsfor(, },. That's 8 A 9

  • J DoyoumindifIcallyou{'

'} 10 0 A No, sir, not at all. 11 0 Thank you. 12 Could you tell me how you are employed, presently 13 14 employed? A I am presently -- You mean my specific? 15 0 Your title. 16 A My title? I am a 37 18 How long have you been employed at Comanche 0 39 peak? - .s _. ,.g. A Approximate 1y' .a 21 G When you began your employment here, in what g Capacity was your employment? I A. Originally? 24 j 4 0 Yes. 25 t = e

    • \\

6 1 A As af i ~ 2 0 Today we are going to be talking on the subject 3 that everybody is aware of regarding the liner plate, and I am going to be asking you questions about your knowledge 4 5 and possible participation in relation to certain events that led to documentation of the subsequent allegations 6 7 that the NRC is exploring here. I think that a portion of these events l 8 How were you employed at 9 10 that time? What was your title? l A I was the non-ASME night shift Oc supervisor. ij 3 It is my understanding in interviews that 12 I have done preceding this interview that a decision was 13 made to turn over the documentation of the travelers, the 14 inspection travelers for these liner plates from ASME to 15 non-ASME. Is that correct? l 16 I l l 1 j7 l A Yes, that's correct. 1 G So in consideration of your tit,le or your jg .. ~.... j duties at*that time, these records were being transferred 39 ne pa'rty or one group on site to your is that'qight? rom 2'O A The basic responsibility was being trar.sferred; 21 that's correct. 22 I 0 Were you involved in the decision to make 23 this transfer? 24 l A No, sir. 25 l t

t 1 i O Waro you involved in any of the planning or i 2 l decisions.or discussions as to how the transfer wou'ld be I H. .3 made? 4 A I guess I don't understand the question. 5 0 Well, in that it was going to come into your hands, did you all have any preliminary meetings or discussion s 6 as to why it needed to be done and how it was going to be 7 implemented, what your duties w~ould be and what your 8 responsibilities would be once the transfer was made to 9 jo non-ASME? A With whom would I -- I didn't have any ij preliminary meetings, but if you are-referr_ing,.to -- 12 0 What planning occurred for this transfer? 13 n Did they just call you on the phone one day and say, 74 we are sending you.a bunch of travelers. We are not going 15 to tell you what they are. When you see them, just figure 16 I it out"? j7 A No. The OA/QC supervisor, who,at that time 18 .. ~....... ~ .s. was Mr. T6m Brandt, informed me one evening that they would i 19 . ~ ~ be starting -work again on the stainless steel-.linef,and 2g - to lodk into it. 21 Did he tell you, did Brandt tell you that 0 22 they were going to be physically transferring these travelers 23 I i into your control? 73 A N The control of the travelers at that 25 i

9 8 1 time was with crafts. i 2 O Well, let me ask you then, was your responsi-bility to be for the ongoing construction or for"the re-3 4 initiation of the construction related to these travelers, 5 or was it for the inspection part related'to them? 6 A It would strictly be for inspection activities. 7 O Okay. For your inspection activities, were 8 you going to physically need these travelers to carry on 9 your inspection duties? 10 A Yes, that the inspections were basically 11 signed off, accepted. 12 O Where were the travelers going to be stored 13 once they came to the non-ASME side? 14 A The travelers were in the possession of crafts. 15 0 And they were going to remain or have remained 16 in the possession of the crafts? 17 A They were in their possession at that time,. 18 yes. ..~...a 39 0 These are quality con,urol documents, right? 2'O

  • A.

They are travelers. 'r. 21 0 They are inspection travelers? A They are basically -- 22 I 23 O Are they Brown & Root stainless steel liner inspection travelers? 24 25 l A That's correct. That's what they are. l l i

9 1' Mayba it would be useful to havo 2 one out'en the. table, Brooks, and then he can refer to it. 3 MR. GRIFFIN: All right. 4 THE WITNESS: What I was trying to refer to 5 there is normally you have a crafts sign-off as well as 6 a QC sign-off. These are basically QC acceptance. 7 BY MR. GRIFFIN: g O I think that you and , and 9 everybody else has probably had to explora these issues, 10 some of these same issues, that we are going to be exploring, and I think you already know a lot of the answers to these jg 12 questions. I hope you won't consider our interview, in 13 spite of the fact that we have a court reporter -- obviously, 34 y u are under oath, and that makes it -- I mean, we are 15 serious about what we are doing here. But I hope you will 16 I kind of help me along a little bit here. 37 I think you know what your test,imony is going 18 to be, and unless ) counsels you otherwise, I would 39 Ppreciate,.rather.than mincing words, I-would-like",to just' ~ 2'O - .g right on through this. 4 21 A Okay. I'll assist you any way I can. I am g i trying to understand your cuestions so I can give you a 23 proper answer. g l It might be useful, Mr. Griffin, ,5 i i .s e ~ s s

LU ifyoujustasksdf to state what Mr. Brandt told 1 2 i was going to happen. I think that might clear up sc=e

  • H-3 l of the confusion.

4 MR. GRIFFIN: If that would elicit the proper responses, I will take your advice,' ] 5 6 BY MR GRIFFIN: 7 0 What did Brandt tell you was going to occur inrelationto[ 8 9 A. The liner plate activity had been dormant 10 for a while. Due to the fact that the ASME Group -- TUGCO had established a non-ASME Group; that they were going to 11 start work on it again; and basically, that it was going. 12 13 .to be in our house, We would be responsible for the inspections ja ?S on it, and it would be starting right shortly, and prepare to staff up and take a look at it. 16 j7 l 0 Would people under your supervision be conducting subsequent inrpections for the construction work that was 18 ... ~....... ~ - > ~. completed? jp That!s correct. - s.- .s, A. 30 - MR. GRIFFIN: Off the record. The timo is 21 I l 9:20. 22 l (Pause in proceedings.) 23 24 l MR. GRIFFIN: Back on the record. It looks some 25 like it is 9:22. We have arranged to get t I

m .m ] Qu ' " 11 1 icoffee. I' s 2 ^ THE WITNSSS: Thtr.h you. I appreci.. ate it, a GR.FFIN: M. I 3 BY NR. a. 6 ,were you aware of sone potential 1 hJ 's problems prior to the transfer --- (Pause in proceedingt.5 ) 4 \\. ,; 7; BY MR. GRIFFIN: 11 O gwere you aware of some problems with g. ^ 10 side?.) 1 1) A Yes, sir. ~ { 12 E I8 it.your understanding that it involved 13 the fact that there were signatures on hold points that y i had.not been,' signed off? 15 A That the documentation, some of the documenta-16 tion was incompleta, yes. l 37 0 Back to my question while ago. Did you have jg any invblvement in the meetings or discussions or planning j i g. l ? determine how to get that inspection documentati4n, altered 2'O.lt l (I'm trying to think of the right word) completed

  • I r

21 A As the situation happened, I basically reported g back to that we appeared to have some incomplete 3 l documentation. I asked that the review be performed by s l i 25 l the responsible 00 group', which would be the ASME Brown I \\ c f 1

12 1 2 l 0 Okay. So would you say that you were the I. ~ 3 one that origine11y raised the concern about receiving this 4 inspection documentation that was not complete 7 5 A I am not positive of that, but -- 6 0 But you did take those steps? 7' A I brought it to people's attention, yes. 8 0 Were you involved in the ASME side of the 9 house plans to determine how they could, complete this docu-10 mentation? 11 A The ASME Group, Brown & Root QC Group is 12 autonomous. The only thing I could possibly do during the 13 review cycle was make some suggestions. ja O Did you? A As I was talking with' based on 15 16 the procedures they had at that time, we determined there was a possible way that we could solve some of the hold 17 te point problems, yes. 39 0 What was that solution? Based on what they call an-NDE,' T1on-d'structEv'e A e 10 - examinhtion, chit, which was identified in procedures, it 21 could be used as supporting documentation that the inspections 22 l 23 l had been performed. O That was not existing procedures, was it? 7, i A Yes. 25 l'

13 1 g They were current and in forca at the tima you made this determination? 2 I 3 A Yes, it was a Brown & Root procedure. 4 0 It is a current Brown & Root procedure. Are 5 you saying that the Brown & Root procedure in 1983 referenced 6 the use of a chit? 7 A Yes, it did. 8 0 In these -- 9 A Yes, it did. 10 0 Back during the timef 11 ) 12 13 14 Tell me if I am wrong,;

but 7 thought 15 that the procedures for the authorization of these chits 16 was revised in 1979, and they were not used after that.

17 18 Are you familiar with that? A* I wasn't here at that time. It was my under-19 r itanding that the NDE chits were a valid possible fQr, support-2'O -1 ing d6cumentation. ( 21 O What was your basis for that understanding? 22 l A The procedure. 23 I G The old procedure or the existing procedure? 2a A The procedure I had at that time, which I l 25

14 1 have a copy of right here. Would you do me a favor and referen'ce' your 2 0 procedures there, and if you could, tell me what'the procedure 3 number is and what the date of the particular revision is? 4 5 A Sure. The 6 7 O Well, like I was saying while ago, } it's my understanding,.and this is not'from my own review; 8 I have benefit of the fact that some other NRC personnel 9 have already looked into the technical aspects of this issue. 10 If I remember what I was told, 11_ i 12 oftheprocedure.] ] 13 But it did, exist at the time 14 15 - l t MR. dRIFFIN: Right. 16 BY MR. GRIFFIN: j7 S So in 18 19 ..e

n. -

yn - A Correct. f 21 -- to let me characterize this as to locate 0 22 documentation that would support the fact that inspections 23 were conducted in }fertheomittedsignaturesonthese y is that correct? l hold points en the traveler inspections; 25 4

15 1 A Yes. ~ ' 2 l 0 So that was the ' solution to completing these i 3 forms; that was your all's solution? 2 4 A That was a method that could be used, yes, 5 as supporting documentation, not quality documentation, 6 as supporting documents. 7 g What quality documentation was there that 3 existed for those incomplete hold points? 9 A Basically, Brown & Root stainless steel inspec-10 tion travelers. 11 0 Okay, but if it was blank, if the hold point where it says " Inspector's signature," was blank, what ot'her-12 13 -quality documentation was there that existed that supported 14 the fact that that inspection had occurred? A Basically, the NDE request chit. 15 16 0 Now, the NDE.was not a -- I thought you were referring to quality control, QC documents. It's my under-37 standing that the NDE chit is a construction document. 18 s L-That's correct. 39 t ~~ .g It. is issugd.by millwrights,,pr.what,I, am 3 talkingaboutwasissuedby[ 21 A That's correct. 22 l O So in it was not a quality control document, 23 1 was it? 24 i' Excuse me. I think the procedures 25 j I

16 1 l clearly show that it was, tha OC procedures in 1978. 2 i BY MR. GRIFFIN: i l-G Well, it was issued by mi11 wrights'and it 3 i J was maintained by mi11 wrights, and they are not quality 5 control inspectors, are they, millwrights are not? 6 L No. 7 0 It is also my understanding that these chits a were, as I said, maintained and filed by millwrights -- 9 or under the millwrights' control until 1983 when they were, 10 if you will pardon the phrase, married up with these inspectic n 11 travelers as the solution to make these documents complete. 12 Is that correct? 13 A As a method. 14 0 Yes. Okay. A . As well as the Brown G Root stainless steel 15 16 inspection travelers. also were in their possession. 17 l 0 Okay. The mi11 wrights had these inspection I 18 . travelers, as well as the chits? .f s -......... ., ~. A That's correct. 19 ~ .[ j Mr. - Grif fin, you are.usi'ncy, the.. " ' 70 ~ l? l term " inspection traveler." The purpose of the travcler 21 is broader than that, as I understand it. 22 l MR. GRIFFIN: I am sure it has many other q 23 functions, as far as welding material and such. My pa ticular 74 concern here, and I want to focus on that if you all will { 25 l

i 1/ 1 allow ma, is to 2 and what the thinking was behind it.and what the perpose 1 u. 3

was, I'm not trying to really go beyond that.

Once 4 5 we can establish what actually knows occurred and what the reasoning was behind it, I think we will be on 6 the way to fulfilling the NRC's needs in this matter. 7 THE WITNESS: Do you mind if I read the part 8 of the procedure here talking about these NDE chits? 9 MR. GRIFFIN: Go ahead. 10 May I ask then, for clarity of ti the~ transcript, ask you to identify the procedure, 12-and. state whether it's 13 14 THE WITNESS: It is a quality control procedure, 15 It's the Comanche Peak Electric Station Brown & Root Quality 16 Instruction, CP-OCI 2.11-1, 97 In Paragraph 5, it is talking about NDE on 18 seam velds and whatever else it identifies. It says,'" Mote Ar.- 39 .tachmEnt 4 (a) is a traveler..and NDE report,gombinat$n and, -- g. shall remain in the work area with the millwright office 21 until it has been completed. Upon completion, it shall 22 f OC inspectors shall use { l be forwarded 1o the OA vault. 23 3 information on the NDE report chits to update Attachment l 4 (a) daily..." which would be the inspection traveler "...and-3 i _..--..-a

18 1 subsequently forward the NDE request chit to the QA vault '~ 2 daily with the status indicated."- 3 BY MR. GRIFFIN: i 4 0 Well, in that these inspections apparently 5 occurred, according to the chit, in 1978,'would you consider their attachment to theI. i 6 7 8 A No. 9 G 'Your understanding -- 10 A But it would still be -- could be possibly ~ 11 used as a method to support -- 12 O I understand what you have said what your solution was, and I am not here to debate whether the solutior, 13 14 was correct or not. I just want to achieve an understanding of 15 what you.all were thinking, what your plans were and what 16 you did as a method of correcting or completing -- not 17 correcting -- completing these inspection documents. 18 L.. ... ~.... -.~ -u.. were you involved in the decision,,to 19 g., 4 f 21 A No, sir. 22 23 0 Were you aware that the decision had been J made and 24 1 25

19 1 A A revicw was b2ing parform2d by th2 ASME Group, i 2 I which was headed up by that came i 3 I discussed what I considered to be some of 4 theproblemsand{ 5 land basically, what went on from that point was 6 basically at{ ] direction. y 8 0 Okay. So ltookontheresponsibilityfor C 9 I-10 11 A That's correct. 12 0 Based on testimony that was made by l 13 i 14 tion documents, 15 I gather that I believe, another inspector Jar the name of }were 16 reviewing these documents and signing off -- I believe it 17 was 18 4 s. A* _ ) 19 l .v.s.. [ 1-- .O o Areyoufamiliarwith[ }tnstimony 21 J in this matter? 22 A No, sir. 23 l O Let's go through it and I will just ask you 24 what you remember as relates to the events as they unfolded 25 I 1 i I -~--

40 i ) on [-' I 2 3 A Do you have

testimony?

u. 4 g Yes, and I am just going to go through li, 5 as my understanding of my reading of the events' occurred; and I am going to try to jog your memory as to what you 6 7 heard or what you observed. j ' testimony indj eates that ' g 9 10 was. given the instructions. 31 Do you recall that?- Do you recall hearing n 12 )eXPainto'" .what{,}intendedfor. ltodo? l 13 L (Ehewasaskedifshecouldsignoff A' Yes. jj thesteps)yes, sir.. 15 0 During the explanation, did' jexpress 16 17 l any concerns about the' validity of whatf }wasdoing? A It was basically that l 19 - -.4..

,..,... ~ ~ '

yy. I I hap many + g other disciplines to be responsible for, and I was just 22 l in and out, basically. The representative that I had there 23 .1 ,jwas there the majcrity of,the time. i was A. i I was basically in and out. j ,5 i J e 4 -.. y )

21-1 0 okay. So you just heard portions of it? You l 1 2 ! knew what was going on? 3 A. Well,-I like to think so, but.... d G Okay, that's the answer. 5 Since you apparently only heard a portion 6 7 8 J 9 A A certain time frame? 10 0 Yes. 11 12 13 14 n I think Itestimony indicated f 15 L ' Was that 16 17 your understanding? 18 A The sooner the better, I assumq, yeah. l 19 g Back to my original question: Did you hear 20 T 21 J 22 A I don't recall exactly that. I recall that 23 i i 24 i SD ) 4 e 9

22 1 0 Confusion with who? 2 A Between the ASME inspectors and the review j 3

group, and their group.

4 0 Didyouhearanyportionof[ L explanation to' 6 y1 A Yes, as a general statement, not for the Specific -- 8 9 G Not for each -- 10 A Not for each specific item; as a general state-j ment that it appeared at that time that this could be used 11 .as supporting documentation. 12 13 G Let me characterize something here for a minute, and if it's correct, I want to ask a question. 14 Based on the NRC's review of these travelers, i 15 the stapling together of the chits to the relevant inspection 16 4 traveler is generally limited to just the chit for Category )7 l l l',the hold point. 18 .-: ~ -. ' - ~ - "- - \\ I In that the NRC comes in years later and pulls 39 I ~ these inspection ~ travelers ~'and sees this-ctr3.t attaehed,- 2O and th'en'in our exploring, the chit is representing 'his 21 Category 1, did you have anything to do or -- i 22 i l A Operation 1. Do you mean Operation l? 23 0 Yes. I'm calling it Category 1, though. If l 24 l lithelpsyou, I'll call it Operation 1. 25 6

23 1 At som1 point, apparently, a decision was f made to get the chits and the travelers together. I'm digres-2 3 sing a minute. Did you have anything to do with that or were 4 5 you aware that that process was being taken, that somebody I was getting the inspection travelers and the chits together? 6 7 A Yes, I believe I was aware of that. g 0 Did you participate in that? 9 ' A No. 10 0 Going back to the conversation between t were you present wheni )) i 12 l 13 Id A It would have to be there. 15 0 Wasthst{ .}explanationto[ 16 u-s A I believe that as a general discussion they 77 ~ said the 'were available and -- the is ... ~..., 0* In my reviewing the procedure, I concluded 39 I 21 22 i f When the NRC looked at these travelers, they j 23 1 in many cases just found one and possibly two chits, rather 24 i than the five that the old procedures would have indicated 25 i i l I

34 1 would be present. I am trying to establish for the rebo'rd here 2 why just those chits that were believed to correspond with' l 3 Operation 1 were included with the traveler, and not all 4 3 five. Do you know? A I would assume that if there's chits available, 6 that they wo91d have them for everything, whatever was 7 required. g D Do you know if chits were -- Well, I guess 9 th'at was before your time. jo A I really can't answer to '77 and '78, what- ); was going on,, because I wasn't here. 12 O I ay wall be asking you questions that you 13 don't have personal knowledge, that maybe you have merely 3, ' heard. If you answer the question, would you please inform 3 lmethatthisisnotwhatyouknowofyourownpersonal- ~ y i knowledge, but what you've been told. g A Right. All right, I'll do that. )g .- ~... -..,,. I know we got up to the point to where 19 . Do yqq hav.c - - 20 l any other questions after that, what transpired afte.- that? O Do I have other questions? I've got a lot of them. j g A Okay. !t appears to me, if you can, weho 1 from '77 to '78, and if we could kind'of stay with what. 25 I i

25 -1 ! I-can give you -- I don't want to confuse you, but.since rhese GL 2 l - 1 3-{ were. coming to your' responsibility, I have to assdme that 'you had some knowledge of what you were getting.rcad that d you had to make some decisions as to how you were. going l 5 a to handle these things, and you had some knowledge of_this 6: j 7 solution for' completing these. i s A Basically -- We have kind of missed a step, 9 10 { if I'may int'erject. 1 MR. GRIFFIN: If you can fill in the record,- f 11 i I would appreciate it. 12 IfIunderstand[

concern, 13 yourquestionsskippedfrom{

}conversationperhaps ja as much as 15 16-There were some. things that happened in 17 i 18 b9 tween. - es. ... ~....... ~ MR. GRIFFIN: Well, if you think it would 39 ? he1p bc NRC's understanding, I would apprecia-te y64,r, filling f -7g - ( it in.' 21 I sure. if you could, 22 just explain for Mr. Griffin what it was you did after your .23 25 i

j i j[ 26-I k 1 l l 2 l { 1 3 k THE WITNESS: Well, after' I informed 4 1 me that the activity was again starting, which -- again, 5i I don't,know how long it was shut down bec 'ise I did n't j work on it, but apparently it had been dor. ant for a whil 6 e. 7 8 9 I l 10,1 33 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 12 3 Who were 13 A. A gentleman by the name of -- I can't remember his name right now. t 15 0 Okay. Maybe you will remember it later. 16 A. Okay. It was the -- I can see his face, but i l I can't get a name on it right now. 37 I I'll think of it here le l in a minute. . ;I i .. ~.. - 19 l 'O Okay. .i .A, 20 l l 1 g 1 I came back to[ l 22 and explained to' 23 f I g I basically sat dcwn with a few travelers with some of my inspectors, and we were trying to piece 73 f 9

21 1 it together, and it senm2d to ba a difficult thing. So 2 lI informed that it appeared to me that the iSME ~ 3 Brown & Root QC Group should be doing a review on 'it and 4 see what they could do to piece together this situation 5 bef ore they turned it over to us. 6 Thoroughly understand that 'is on , My hours at that time were 7 r L8 about - - 9 I 10 1 11 [ }saidthat 'would get up somebody and l 12 they would come, 13 I said, "Okay." l ~ I was informed that would be coming I 14 lI he would be doing 15 i-16 l a review cycle.j cameto[ 1 I can't remember 17 la when or -- you know, exact dates, but he came to the night l .-: ~.... shift; went up and we got out some of the travelers and 19 he -lo ked at it 'and I showed him the hold.. points thgt wers --- 2'O - ; - ~ 21 mis s in'g. Based on the procedure -- we looked at the, procedure that was in effect at that time. 22 Based on the chits -- some of the chits were 23 I available there. They were all in that area. 24 I It appeared at that time that possibly the 25 1 (

28 i 1 inspsetors had just not brought it up to dats. 1 2 0 1,et me break in here for a second. *Were'the 3 chits that you were'looking at originals or were.they the 4 carbons? 5 A. I'm not sure. I assume they,were originals. l 6 They were not carbon -- 7 0 No, I'm.not talking -- well, as I understand ~ 8 it, the chits were in multi -- 9 A. They were white in color so I assume they 10 were originals. 11 g Okay. j l A. I remember the NDE chits and they were dif ferent. 12 l colors. They were white; appeared to be originals. l 13 -- I went on about my duties as jj non-ASME QC supervisor. ]spenthoursinthere .j 15 going over items. 16 17 - would call me up sometimes. I would come in and we would look at it and he had the basic method, 18 \\ the idea that the chits 4:culd"be. used' Tor.. supporting' the- ~ 39 20 - I. d. oc.ume.ntatio.n. I suggested at that time that possibly it j g \\ w uld be a good idea to get the originating inspectors to 22 i l t come in and assist. Basically, I guess, they weren't 23 available. ~ ( 24 g Were they unavailable because they no lenger 3 1 i i { .r

su 1 worksd on cita? i 2 ! A. I am really not 'sure whether they w' ele no 3 longer here or whether they were off in other responsible d ' areas and weren't available. I really didn't investigate 5 that part, just that they were unavailable. 6 0 Did' give the go-ahead or authorize , - I keep referring to it as a solution,. 7 g 8 9 A. I don't believe so. Basically, the review 10 cycle and whatever else was not in our house. It was basica1] y 1) with the ASME Group. They were doing a review cycle. I i don'tthinkf reported to -- } reported 12 13 to! ]andtheywere totally autonomous organizations, independent. ja g I understand. Let me change that, then. Do 15 you know iff ui 17 A. No, sir. I don't know whether they discussed 3g I, ...-r. ,. ~..., it or notr

  • 39

,~,..,.,.. - ' ~' G .Go ahead. 3,. ,3 A. I was informed byf lthar they had 21 L af 22 l 23 l }that they i l to review and possibly do 24 of using the chit as evide 25 i

30' I which I really didn't hava a. problem with. Like I told him," you know, " Proceed.#' We-2 . ere getting -- crafts were -- everybody was really wanting 3 w 4 to get started on this thing. Let's go. So as they started in the process,I 5 whoatthat. time [ 6 3 I asked him to go up' there and review what was going 7 3 on, pay attention. 9 What my instructions to what to they did. complete, was to take the new procedure -- a new ~ procedure.had been issued which became QI-QP-11.14-6, which 11 12 was a TUGC0 procedura r I basically _said take the inspection traveler 13 that is identified in that procedure, along with-the second 14 page which talked about the NDE requirements, and attach 15 16 it to it, staple it to it. 17 g So this procedure was made in consideration .of this need to complete these open inspection forms? 18 . ~.,,..., % ~ I' beg your pardon? A. 39 ? .g .I,'m asking.yeu, was the pr.ocedur.e. written.. - - 70 in response to this need to correct or complete this,informa-21 tion? 22 A. No. It's a new issue of a procedure based 23 en the fact that the responsibility for inspections would 74 be coming into the non-ASME Group, which is basically the 25 i ,...,i - - ,.__m

.u 1 TUGCO GroGp. l 2 i It would require ~a new procedure bei:cuse'we l I 3 l weren't certified to Brown & Root procedures. A-new procedure would be issued by Quality Engineering that was a TUGC0 4 procedure which our inspectors would be certified to. 3 The only persons that were qualifie'd to the 6 CP-QAP procedure at that time were ASME inspectors. 7 G You are saying, then, that there is no 8 relationship between the inclusion of the reference to NDE 9 chits on this new procedure, the inclusion of the reference 10 ~ to chits has nothing to do with the prcblem of filling in j7 these incompleted sign-off hold points? 12 A. You basically have a new quality instruction 13 ( issued. jj I understand that, but I.am asking you 15 specifically. Are you saying there is no relationship between 16 t the need to reference these chits to get these forms com-37 pleted and this new procedure that just happens to say you 18 need an~ inspection form and the chit? You say there l's,,,. _ / ... ~...,...., -... -.. 39 nd yefationship between the,proced re an,d.,t, hat,need? g. . A. I guess you are not getting across to me. .]Theprocedurewasissuedmonths g I l before the problem was discovered. g 3Y MR. GRIFFIN: e-CL !s that your understanding, g a e

~ 32 1 1, A Yeah, I believa it was. It was -- The pro-1 2 cedure was on the street, the TUGCO procedure, ye's. The l l l quality instruction for the TUGco inspections was' en the 3 l 4 street, as well as the old Brown & Root procedure was still ] 5 in effect. Again, this is a transition. This'is going .) 6 I 7 to end and this is going to start up. Okay. Finish up l 8 what you are supposed to do so we can start up and do what f 9 l we are supposed to do. I jo i O Do you happen to have that procedure that j 11 you are referencing right now? A Yeah, I think I do. 12 13 0 I need the number and the revision and the date. 34 A I have QI-QP-ll.14-6, Rev. 1, which was issued 15 i 16 l September 8th, 1982. I l j Do you have Rev. O or can you 17 l tell when Rev. O was issued,' ]fromthat, document? )g ~1. ..., ~ ->- ^ THE WITNESS: No. 39

j. BY'MR..' GRIFFIN.: -

~ g. 'D Which one references the combining of t he 21 inspection travelers with the chits? Which rev. was that? 22 '} That's the 1978 procedure. e i i 23 i THE WITNESS: That's the 1978 procedure, Brown .j i i & Root procedure. I 4 i I

l 33 i t BY MR. GRIFFIN: 2 l 0 Aren't we talking about a new procedure that was issued for the changcover from ASME to non-ASME? Isn't 3 that what you've been speaking or here? 4 A Yes. 5 0 When was that procedure issued, that new pro-6 cedure in 19837 7 A I have a copy of Texas Utilities Generating 8 Company's Quality Instruction No. QI-OP-ll.14-6, Rev. O, 9 26, 1982. l and it was issued March 10 D Could you read the reference part about the p chits? 12 A The reference part about the chits? 13 0 Where it says that you will combine.the ja travelers with the chits, or that the chits will be included 15 with the travelers, or whatever it says. 16 A I don't think you understand. Where they 37 ,are referencing the chits,is in the Brown & Root procedure jg ..: ~...,.. rs which was*in effect in 1978 when this was being constructed. 39 I nderstand-that, but what 4 misunde'r, stood '* " 2'0 0 was, I thought you said that prior to this solution caf using 21 these chits to complete the unsigned hold points, that months g l l preceding that a new TUGCO procedure was issued which says g take your cid inspection travelers on liner plates and take 7, the DE chits and put them together. 25 I i 1 l i

34 1 A No. j 2 i 0 That's not what you were saying? 3 A That's not what I'm saying. ~ 4 0 Okay. Well, I completely misunderstood you. 5 A. I guess what I'm trying to get across to you, 6 in 1978 the procedure that was in effect is the ASME Brown 7 & Root Procedure No. CP-QAP -- 8 0 1 understand that. i 9 A -- which referenced the chits. Somewhere 10 in time, in 1981 we basically had a split between ASME and 11 non-ASME, and the non-ASME Group was set up to do the 1; inspcetions during the 1981 period. 13 TUGCO, or Texas Utilities Generating Company, ja issued tta procedures, which I just mentioned to you was Rev. 15 0, and what waq the date on there, March the 28th, 19827 4 Yes. 16 THE WITNESS: Now we are in the process of 17 tranr;ition. We are going to start and we are going to take-18 - ~. - > - - ~ it over. 39 This 'documenE here --

  • *** P
  • V-

~~ -" ~ ~ ~ -. 20 Which 'L ]hasinbishand-21 a e THE WITNESS: What I have in my hand -- 22 j I -- the traveler for Weld No. 51. 23 l 1 THE WITNESS: Which most of the sign-off dates j 24 are in 1978. The procedure that was in effect and governing l 25 j __._m______

35 1 that at that time was ORP procedure, which was a Brown & i 2 l Root procedure. That's where the chits are referenced. 3 As I told you, I identified the fadt that there d was missing hold points on this old documentation. That's why{ }whowasbasicallyresponsibleastheBrown 5 6 & Root QC Group ]toreviewitandto u 7 attempt to clear up what hold points he could based on that procedurek 8 9 Now, any'vork that was performed after the 10 transfer, that's another item. When ~ } attached 11 the new traveler, we identified -- } That new traveler would be Pages 12 13 1 and 2 of that package? 14 THE WITNESS: Yeah, Pages 1 and 2. We 15 referenced the new procedure that the work would be performed 16 by now. 17 The other pages, the following pages, Page 18 3, 4 and 5, are basically the supporting documentation to 39 complete this traveler. ? . ~,.., - " ~ ~ '

to -

8Y MR. GRIFFIN: - -.67 21 0 Are those supporting documents referented in the procedure? 22 A. In the QI-QP? 23 24 g Yes. A. No, I don't believe so. It's a method of 25 l

1 1 36 1 being able to support.- 2 l 0 That takes us back to where we were ten minutes 3 ago. I understand what you all were doing. d I go't real confused there for a little while, i 5 because I thought you said that there were procedures in 6 existence that called for this step to be taken where you 4 7 would put the chits in with the travelers. q 8 A. No. Basically, what I was saying to you is 9 in 1978 the procedure that was in effect was the Brown & 10 Root ASME procedure, which identified the chits. 11 Now, it's fairly obvious that the inspectors at that time -- I wasn't here and can't say what happened, 12 13 but-they could use the chits to verify. 14 O Tell me if I am wrong, but I think you are drawing a conclusion that is unsupported by -- unless you 15 i 16 are.. interpreting some procedure that I have not had access 17 to. I understand the reasoning of using the chits, 18 .f. 19 but I don't accept, unless you can explain further, I don't ? 2'O - iccept where the' procedures substantiate. t> hat-that.~is, wha.t - is to be done or that is an approved method of having these 21 inspectors come in and fill in the blanks. 22 I I want to make it just that simple. 23 A. Okay. 24 25 O But it is your opinion that it is an approved I I l

.....a l 37' I method? I 2 A-No. In 1978 the chits could be used as. i-I 3 supporting, based on the note that I read to you'but of the a procedure. 5 0 It is my interpretation that the chits were 6 requests for inspections. 7 A That's correct. g 4 And that the sign-off of those chits by a QC 9 inspector provided the craft person with a record that'would 10 authorize him to proceed. A That's correct. 11 0 But was not considered at that time,'nor since, 12 as a quality control record, which indicated that the quality 13 control inspector was signing off on a QC document that this 14 hold point had been met; that it was used by construction 15 for their purposes to proceed, and that other documents were 16 required by a procedure, mainly the inspection traveler, 17 as the quality control document. gg Are we in agreement on that? ), ". ' A .I can see your point, yes. r .~, ;., 0 Okay, because I don' t think wa need to; belabor 21 the point of your all's decision to try to reference these 22 ld chits as a valid way of completing the forms. I think 23 we all have achieved an understanding of that. 3 It is probably purposeless for US to debate, i .c

38 1 b2cause you are hcving to go back in tima to reference a

  1. ~~

2 procedure before you even worked here. 3 A. That's correct. A g And it would be pointless for me to argue.some 5 opposite position. That is not our purpose'here, anyway. 6 If.you don't mind, do you have any more? You 7 were doing what I call a narrative there that referenced 8 what you knew as to the events leading up to the sign-off 9 of these travelers? 10 Did I stop you, or do you have more in relation 11 to that narrative? g ) My notes indicat'e'he wasn't quite 12 13 finished. .]hadtakenyouthrough{ } conversation 14 with[* 15 16 17 l I am not sure! had finished to the 18 4.. ..-.s. 19 point whe,re,'they actually sat down to do this work. t 3Y MR7 GRIFEIN.. ,~, ;., 20 21 .g You are doing just fine. If there is pore that you know about, we could speed things up if you could 22 i 1 l tell me what your involvement, what you heard. What I need 23 J to know about is people walking and talking, what they'said, I 24 i 25 what you heard. L i I 4

39 l- .*arsay. Iamonlygoingtoask~himwhat 2 MR. GRIFFIN: 3 he heard and what he saw. ~' d The former is hearsay; the latter 5 is not. 6 IEE WITNESS: I guess we are at the point where 7 8 9 I There seemed to be 10 L 11 confusion. ) 12 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 13 O Are we talking about 14 15 A 16 4 too? 17 A Appeared to be. 18 0 Okay. ... ~...,....,,,, -. <... _.... seemed to be a little more vocal. 19 A 2'0 - i recei'ved a phone call from" to come.on',up, .I ' ~ ~ I 21 went u'p. I' 22 23 l u 25 I don't know whether it had been explained l

} 40 1 fully to them or what their basic problem was. '2 I suggested to them at that time I could see 3 where possibly the statement should be made, t 5 I 6 D That was your recommendation? 7 A-It was af 8 9 10 11 12 ~ - 13 -In my opinion, that would be a way to identify la what they were actually doing so it would not be interpreted 15 16 That was only a 17 0 That was your' Do you have any 18 . direct knowledge that , offered that,same suggestion ..-s 19 to them? -m- .~, ;.,. 1.go.not. .. g ~ '

  • 21 0

Do you know of your own personal knowl:tdge that I 'in fact just told 22 23 24 Was'that instruction? 23 i

41 1 A had asked them to -- based on the information 2 3 yes. d 4 So the end result would have been I 7 l A I hope not. 8 G Well, do you have any further information as 9 to what instructions entailed, other thanI 10 11 A No. 12 O Maybe I have carried this too far. You said 13 you were present for at least a portion of 6 14 15 Was it your understanding in that portion of r-16 the instructions that you heard 17 A That may have been a possible area of confusion 18 l .; ~.., -. ~......... that based on the information had 19

presed, 2o ampm]

e 2i S So at that point, 22 22 ,6_ ,1 i l i d

  • f

42 1 A To my knowledge. 2 (L Did you hear any reference by, as 3 to 5 6 1 y, We are referencing, for the record, M 7 8 . exam 6 l Many of these -- I am just telling you, based 10 11 on my reading 12 13 14 wc:21d observe that you could r 15 not possibly have learned that from a review 16 I suggest that may have beentrue,butyoucouldnothavelearnedh j 17 ( 18 .. - ~ -........ 19 MR. GRIFFIN: I don't know how I -- ) 0 ~'As they exist-today.. .~.,. 21 MR. GRIFFIN: I don't know how I absorbep this, 22 but in looking at these, I have compared some of the signa-23 tures of the inspectors that were here back in 1978, and 24 I have had the benefit of talking to some of those people. 25 There is an indication, although it does not state this on .g.

43 I the travelers, as has pointed out, that other ' ~ 2 people were making these entries. 3 THE WITNESS: Other people 7 4 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 5 0 Probably millwrights. 6 ) 7 8 ut signature and.I think 9 this is 10 'k 11 12 A. I wasn't aware of that. A wouldn't.have an'y 13 knowledge of that. I can see what you are showing me M 14 L.- 15 16 17 l 18 P 0* So it would appear that 19 , ~,..,... yn ' A' Yeah, it appears that way. L 21 22 i 0 Do you know if laisodidthat? I 23 l A. I would have to see.

g 0

Well, I am not asking you to research it now. l 25 I am just saying, at this time do you have any knowledge l hp

i 44 1 that he did the same thing? 2 A. No. 3 G Now, back to my original question.During 4 that portion of 6 7 A Or the date? 8 G Yes,{ ] I am just asking you, did 9 10 you hear any reference -- 11 L My recollection from the conversation, M 12 13 14 15 0 You didn't hear, okay. 16 A. Again, it was not my responsibility. 17 0 I understand that. , 'You were clear, were you not, 18 .. ~.... 19 ~ - - THE WITNESS: Yeah. 1 ~ 21 22 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 23 l 0 But while you were present, he made no 2d 2,.n i i D +

45 1 A He may have, but not to my knowledge. 2 i G Okay. Were you h.nvolved in any other' events 3 or -- well, I know you were. Whatothereventsfollowing[ 4 L .i 7 A. Well, you've got to ask me that again. I guess 8 I lost you somewhere. Other than -- 9 G We will call your narrative to a close, and 10 maybe I can help you along here by jogging your memory. 11 A My narrative? 12 O Yes. 13 A I'm trying to give you the events as I recall 14 them. I hope you don't consider it a narrative. ) 15 O Well, I don't mean that as a bad thing. I appreciate your helping me out and' moving along and telling 16 me what you know because that's what I would hope each witness 17 i 18 .would do. .. ~....... m A* I'll do my best. 19 ? ~ 2"O *

  • O Thank you.

~~- n testimony stated that ~ 21 22 23 i 24 25 l testimony further says that'

46 1 1 2 l 3 4 5 I am telling you that's what said. 'Did 6 nyey to you this same understanding when he con-7 tacted you about their concerns? 8 A. As I recall we were, again, talking about some ~ 9 confusion on it. And, again, as I suggested, if the chits 10 were technically correct and matched what they did, they 11 could make the late entry. I wouldn'.t really have any knowledge as -- I!didn't 12 reviewanythingwith[ ]There 13 was confusion at the time. ja -] 15 16 G I understand. I g }in % testimony said ( 17 l 18 19 I . [emamanag-.. .e a. O Yes. That's the way it is described ip her ~ 21 testimony, I believe. { 22 l ,]Ibelieve. 23 l A. Who would that be? l 24 0 I believe in the transcrip-it says W" 25 l l i s 4 1

~ 47 1 A. I l ]isnota' 2 3 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. 4 BY MR. GRIFFIN: ~ 5 O Do you have any recollection of 6 7 Inj I made 8 A 9 many --I yes. L 10 0 Did you hear' ~ 11 Do you have any recollection of thatf ~~ 12 A I knew was concerned. lwas confuse'd. 13 seemed to be agitated. Yes. 14 O At this point in time had you heard -- 15 A Confused by [ 16 0 Okay. At this point in time, had you heard 17 18 19 .yn. 21 f 22 A I think some people did talk toi 23 yes. 24 0 Do you know who talked to him? 25 A Not specifically. I can't recall exactly, l i l l I

J 48 1 but again, going back to what I told you before, I suggested 2 at the time that the original inspectors be brought i.n that R 3 had done this work, because they would have a muc'h better l 4 ' understanding of the process and methods of what they possibly i 1 5 did or didn't do. 6 G But they didn't take your suggestion? i 7 A They basically said that they weren't available, a They may_ have went.back and talked to-9 them. The other inspectors may have went back and talked 10 to them. I can't -- 11 Q. Do you know if -]wasconsultedprior 12 13 14 A I couldn't testify to that. no, whether it 15 was before or after or during. 16 0 Were you in thisf a 17 18 . s ~... Didyouhear( ,make any statement 19 ~ ~~ -~ 2o ~ to tha't effect7* - ~ ;. ' ' ~ " "A Idon'tremember( 21 I assumed that they probably would. 22 23 I might point out that' l 24 testimony in the ASLB proceeding contradicts 25 I in substantial respects on this point, and perhaps ,s l t =

49 . recalls whatever it was that -- 1 not I MR. GR$FFIN: Mo're clearly? 2 l 3

Yes.

~ 4 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. 5 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 6 0 What I am doing here, is I am following -- 7 A. When you said that, I thought you said you I 8 were referring to 9 0 I am. As a matter of fact, in my line of testimony. to questioning here, I am following If it is incorrect.... I am following it, but I am asking 11 youquestionsofwhatyousawandheard,andifyoudidn}t 12 see or hear, just say, "I didn't hear that," or, "I didn't 13 see that," or, "I don't know about that." 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 O Did you hear any statements in this same area-16 ofwhereverf were talking, did you hear 37 anystatementsby{ 18 19 yg 2, Were you present? 22 A. Wait a minute. What are you asking me? 23 O I am asking you were you present when _ 24 ~ 23 e e e s se<

-- - 1 50 1 A. Yeah. ~ l 2 I guess I 3 still don't understand your question. 4 g Apparently, no work had been done.at this point, 5 and claims ini testimony that s 8 9 10 My question to you is were you present when 11 { made such a statement 12 13 If he heard it. f 14 MR. GRIFFIN: If he didn't hear it, his answer 15 16 should be, "No," If he did hear it -- THE WITNESS: I don't recall. I can remember 17 . that there was some rather loud discussions at different 18 -., - > ~... -...,,. times, but i can't recall exactly what was said. 19 ? .~,..,.... ~ ~ 20 - 8Y MR. GRIFFIN Loud discussions betweenf }

  • G 21 A.

Yes. 22 I Were you present when 23 i 2t

ummmmmmmmmmuusumunus

2, +;

Were you in the same work area? 1 2 i A I came into the area, yes. Do you know when they completed their, work? 3 l 0 d A Date-wise? The date? Was it the same evening, the same night?. 3 D A No. As I recall it, this sequence of events 6 was a couple of days., 7 8 0 Were you -- and%saiditwasbogging 9 A I talked to dowm, that it was probably going to be longer, and then he 10 came back and told me it was complete and he was going to 11 It seemed to have cleared up. turn it all over to us. 12 After the work was complete or during this g 13 told you that it had been finished and that meeting when 14 it was coming to you, did make any reference 15 16 17 Iassumegwasstillofamindthatitwas A ja .B.utyoudon,'t.havea$yrecol_lectionof{g,,,. ~ 0 20 mentioning it? 21 He didn't give me any specific details saying A J 22 l 22 0 Okay. 24 Basically,S,,toldme A l 25

I and at that point in 2 . time it was going to be transferred over to us. I O Let me ask you an all-encompassing luestion 3 I 4 here. At any time from the time that these people completed 5 their work until this work was transferred to your responsi-6 bility, didI e 9 10 A never made a statement that anything was 11 ever a problem. f 12 O Nothing to that effect? 13 A No. 14 0 Did you ever hear any reference by anybody I 15 following the work performed did you ever hear any 16 j reference thatf 17 ... ~...,1Did you ever hear any state-18 ments or rumors or anythin'g to that effect? 19 ?

  • x

.g g.. 'O Yes. I 21 A No. Again, I still believe that they were 22 confused about what really was going on, what they really -- 23 24 you know. 2s i

] 1 l 2 ; O I want right now to touch on some steps that jtook followin's 3 I believe 4 0 6 .1 As.specified in the new procedure. 7 0 Yes. I must observe that this is beyond 8 9 what you indicated the subject matter of this interview was. 10 MR. GRIFFIN: I don't think I stated on the 11 record what the subject matter was. I may have stated to 12 you_previously. You did, indeed, state to me pre-3 viously that the subject matter dealt with! 14 15 MR. GRIFFIN: the NRC has needs 16 that sometimes extend beyond what you and I may have discussed 17 , informally on some preceding date. la -~ - *- It's not my intention to deceive you, and I 39 wil-1 bb glad to "give you.the subject matter, -the arep, that""' ~ 2"O I hope'to go into, and if you want to have a break and dis-21 cuss that with your client -- 22 23 I would appreciate that very much. THE WITNESS: My personal representative. 24 MR. GRIFFIN: Yes. 25 l l l l

~

um 1 You are the client. I am your i*' 2 representative. 3 1 MR. GRIFFIN: What I plan to go into, isthattherewasaperiod{ 4 6-7 Once again, B There was a problem (I'm going to 9 characterize it that way)' 10 11 12 I just want to explore the difficulties that 13 his group had during the short period of time in there. 14 Are you familiar with that? 13 No, I am not. It might be useful 16 topointoutthat( ! informed me yesterday that 17 the activity, very shortly after the events we have discussed. [ 18 .. -.. ~ - * -....... THE WITNESS: That's correct. + 19 ~. .And his invol.venent;. terpr}at;ed, -- 3 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. I still, even thopgh his 21 answers may be brief and we may not be on that point but 22 i 1 23 l just a few minutes, I still feel I need to explore it. . Since we have not had an oppor-24 l 25

tunity, and I, to discuss this, I would like e

L_ ...-. _ nm. bb 1 to have a short recess. 2 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 3 0 E, are you familiar with what I'am going 4 to ask you about? 5 A. No, sir. 6 0 7 1 l 8 9 10 They,{ 11 so we have an extenuation of the same problem. R-12 13 A. The same problem continuing? 14 0

Yes,

) 15 If you are not the one that I need to talk 16 to, we should be able to find that out quickly enough, but 17 18 if you have any knowledge on that, I need it. ..g T'o give you the bottom line, ~ 19 gnl 21 22 23 \\ 1 24 They had c: eated -- I will characterize it 25

i 1 l 2 d A. Could you give me the names of the individuals? { is already aware of them. 5 O Sure. Ihaveinterviewed{ 6 1 Lm 8 MR. GRIFFIN: 9 BY MR. GRIFFIN: i 10 0 Maybe we can solve this by just saying are you familiar with anything surrounding the events of their 11 12 work 13 A Yes. That was before. I think, 14 15 Mr. Griffin, you have the sequence out of order. 16 MR. GRIFFIN: Do I? Yes. 17 18 THE WITNESS: What sequence are you talking .... m 19 about? Wfiere are we at? ? 'MR. GRIFFIN :~ If my c.equence.-is -out 6f;.,ord.ei," ~~ 2'O j maybe'you have information I don't have. 4 21 THE WITNFSS: I'm not sure whether we are 22 23 out of order. Why don't we take a short break. 24 25 Let me ask some questions about this and maybe I 1 ? e b 9

~ 57 I we can clear it up. 2 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. It would be nice if you 3 could just take the initiative here. I.f you know'something 4 I don't, if I'm out of sequence, I would appreciate your 5 letting me know so we can get it into the record. 6 (Recess taken.) 7 MR. GRIFFIN: We are back on the record at 8 11:04. 9 have had an oppor-tunitytoreviewthegeneralareas{ 'o 11 { "' 12 THE WITNESS: 13 M 14 MR. GRIFFIN: 15 16 17 18 1 ? .THE WITNESS :- No. .~,.., 2'O - That's incorrect. t ~ 21 MR. GRIPFIN: That's not right? Correct me. 22 THE WITNESS: Your question, you said it had 23 been identified, the fact that myself and some other inspectors 24 sat down and we had some travelers and we were trying to 25 c.

. m _._ -.._.- m._ 30 1 picco this thing together. ~ M, at what point in 2 3 time did you sit down to do this? d THE WITNESS: I can't give you a.. specific date. { 5 Was'.it shortly.hfter 6 6 7 told.you you would.be engagin'gf.in this.. activity? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. We sat down and we were 9 trying to piece the whole thing together. I could see that 10 we had some incomplete documentation. It became obvious 11 to me, also, that my inspectors were not certified in the Roots' 12 proper procedure, which would have been the Brown & 13 procedure, to proceed any further. I instructed them at that time to take them 14 15 out, remove them. 16 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 17 O Take the new -- 18 A. The attachment, any documentation that we ,.,... r s had put id there, to take it out, 19 t he you referring to the chits?'- 1. .- '~~~' 2'0 - 0 ~A I am referring to the traveler. 6 21 a I j THE WITNESS: 23 24 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 25 O Take the eight-line traveler out? ....s

,_...--w-- >-n... =_. - n .. -: w., ou I A. Right. I-* 2 0 Okay, go ahead. 3 A Again, there's two pages to it. The new eight-4 line traveler is identified as the OI-OP 11.14-6 procedure. 5 I could see problems. We instructed them to 6 take it out. We had probably done 30, 40 or so of them; 7 take it out. I destroyed them, tore them up. 8 That's ' shen and said (basedonwhatIcoulddetermine,thatitwouldrequirean 9 10 ASME review and ASME inspectors to complete the documentation. 11 0 Then following this, this responsibility for 12 completing these travelers was referred back to the ASME 13 side of the house? 14 A That's correct. 15 0 And then the events we discussed earlier in 16 this interview -- 17 A That proceeded on. 18 O Okay. Couldyoutellmeabout[ 19 yo. ~ m m3 2i ( 22 A 23 i i 24. Okay. After I was informed that the ASM5 Group A l 25 l review was complete, we picked up some mere of the travelers l l e a 1 m

60 1 and we sat down, and it became evident to me that there was 2 ! still incomplete documentation.' There were still'h'o$d" points i 3 that hadn't been signed off or referred to. -a d O Inotherwords,[ g 5 6 A. That's correct. f Who participated with you, 7 { in this activity? 8 9 THE WITNESS: is I'm trying to communicat e ( 10 it tog Basically, at that point in time, it looked like 11 theresponsibilityfor{ 12 13 3 Wesatdown,again,{ 14 [ [. M D is 16 [ 17 l 18 . You can see on Pag $ _ 19 Again, a random review. -[ 2o - 21 BY MR.' GRIFFIN: g-O Are you talking about the page that references 22 the -- I don't know if this particular one has it. This 22 24 one? A. Yeah. This is an attachment to it and it 25 I m i i

c.t. 1 gives You can see up here -- I don't know where that comes from, btit it identified thdm". This 2 ! is in my handwriting. It's a random review. 3 I figured at this point in time we had estab-4 lished I 5 m 0 Y u p inted to. ignature. 6 Is that something that was added at a later revision? 7 A. The copy of 8 9 0 You would have g 11 { 0 Okay. Myunderstandingisf 13 14 15 16 and it says, 18 19 ~~ " .~, ;., - Is that your recollection? 6 21 Doyouhavea{ Mr. Griffin? 23 i l MR. GRIFFIN: I'm afraid I don't. 24 THE WITNESS: That's my recollection. t L-.--

G2 1 You are reading from some papers '~ 2 l there. 3 MR. GRIFFIN: Right, and I am just'trying to 4 use it not as an absolutely accurate, but I'm trying to jog 5 his memory. I'm not going to hold you to every word. 6 Does that generally refiect what 7 you recallf 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, it does. 9 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 10 0 Were you aware that this NCR -- Our review 11 of the records, I'm telling you, show that the NCR 12 was dispositioned and closed but it was-13 reopened again with Revision 1 on for the 14 Purpose of changing the nonconforming condition. 15 The words were deleted 16 from your original NCR. Were you aware of that? 17 A. Sometime later I became aware of it, yes. 18 O When you wrote the words l 19 did you mesh to indicate that you had not looked at all the ? trave 5'ers, but.just some of.the travelere.- . ~,.,.,. ~ yo. A That's right. L 21 22 l 0 That you had identified the ones that you listec l 23 here on Page 2 of the NCR? I A. Right. 24 Why don't you ask 25 + h

63 1 what it was What did you look at? 2 MR. GRIFFIN: Would you answer 3 question? 4 I mean, is that a fair question? 5 As opposed to characterizing, why don't you just have 6 say what did. 7 THE WITNESS: Well, as I told you before, I i 8 was informed by the ASME Group that the review was complete 9 and they had taken care of their respensibilities. 10 A few days later we picked up the travelers, 11 inspection travelers, again. We sat down and we could see 12 additional hold points, that the problem was basically % t 13 solved. 14 We sat down and, again, you've got boxes of 15 these items, and we are picking it up and we are going through 16 it. We can see incomplete documentation again. 17 We basically issued a nonconformance. I had 18 . assumed, as I had suggested before to Q, if there's j ....s areas that the documentation could not be completed, that 19 ? he 4dintify.a.nonconformance. . v,., g-I don't know whether missed all these or 21 what the problem was there. You would have to ask{ M 22 23 I But I noticed it, 6 nd myself, and 24 l we sat down and we issued the NCR so Engineering could beccme 25

1 aware of it, and Quality Engineering could review the 2 situation. 3 That's it. 4 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 5 0 You said you were aware that there was a Revi-6 sion 1, and if I understood your answer right, you were also 7 aware that the words were re. moved. 8 A. I became aware of that situation, yes. 9 Q When you became aware of it, how did you 10 interpret, or did you interpret, 11 A. How did I interpret it? 12 13 0 Yes. Do you understand 14 Perhaps it would be better to 15 asktheperson{ 16 17 MR. GRIFFIN: I am asking I guess 18 fo my owr} purpose',~ to ide7-f ha3%n~ u5 der'sTah6i'ng>. of

  • s 19 2D.

.. - - ~ ~ BY MR., GRIFFIN: 21 0 You( 22 u 23 l ~ A. That's correct. 24 0 Semebody else came along later, and I presume 73 l l e

65 ~ 1 your testimony is that it was not you,'. 3 These welds identified are the ones' that are 4 deficient. 5 [ I object to that, Mr. Griffin. 6 You are making a characterization about what someone else 7 did. I think you have to ask the person who did it. 8 MR. GRIFFIN: I will, I don't 9 have' available here. 10 I am still interested -- is the C ii 12 I am 13 14 requesting -- As his counsel, I think it's unfair 15 to ask to characterize the intent of someone 16 else's actions. I don't think that's a fair question, 17 Mr. Griffin. 18 .......s MR. GRIFFIN: Well, let me rephrase it and 19 \\ I aybe 5 can < jet What I need' and you can te satisfiedt. too'; 5 1 2'O You understand, I think it's unfair ~ 21 to ask him to speculate. 22 MR. GRIFFIN: All I can tell you, 23 we have a situation that still exists in relation to how 7, I do not 25 i l l 9

I know at this point in time, until I ask g 2 3 4 I'm telling you - ' I'm not asking a question. 5 and I.have some serious concerns about the implications 6 7 8 E 9 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 10 0 Now, my question to you is: S '/ No, sir. A. 12 0 dkay,andIbillforego-- ~ 13 I appreciate it. ja MR. GRIFFIN: I will forego asking him the 15 implications. To me, the implications are clear. 16 During many parts of this interview today, 37 has been good enough to fill in some of the blanks 18 ... ~.. ,,-s. . ~....,,. _. f r the*HRC of things that we we're not aware of. This would 19 be' An excelhent opportunity,.' ~ g. k I would certainlyg 21 appreciate it. 22 2F l If you have no knowledge, then that's another l 1 24 thing. 1 25 4 +

67 i - j 2 That's basically a misunderstanding on your part. 3 . A review cycle was being performed. The NCR 4 had been issued, and a hold was put on the travelers. Tc 5 my knowledge, no inspections were being performed until -- 6 basically, we applied five hold tags. We applied hold tags 7 to the items. 8 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 9 0 I do not have a copy of the -- Did you ever 10 learn what.the disposition was on the Rev. 2 NCR? 11 A Yes. i. 12 O What is your understanding -- 13 A.. Not Rev. 2. I'm talking about Rev. O. 14 0 I don't have that information, other than what 15 I read to you*while ago. Was that the disposition? 16 No. I think does 17 know the disposition. Feel free to ask 18 BY MR. GRIFFIN: _. ~......., 19 0 What was the disposit, ion? 2'O '"' ~ 'A ' Thi disposi-J66 was that NDE'and' hydrostatic ~ 21 testing would be performed on these welds, and use as' is. 22 O Would that be hydrostatic or -- l 23 l Vacuuta box. 24 THE WITNESS: Yeah, vacuum box. b MR. GRIFFIN: Vacuum box. 25 j l

j l 68 1 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 2 O Hydrostatic is a non-pressurized teit",'is it l 3 not; 4 A Hydrostatic is a pressurized test. Probably 5 a more correct term would be leak test. Hydrostatic implies ) 6 the fact that you are putting static pressure. ( l 7 0 Do you know of your own -- from what you have seen or heard whether the final disposition was for'just 8 9 these welds that you identified in your original Rev. O or ) if it was for all the travelers that had missing entries? 10 i A. I could make the assumption that if they took 11 12 l 13 14 Are you asking me how I became aware that the 15 I' NCR has been rev'd? 16 0 No. Since I don't have the benefit of having j j7 l I i 18 j Rev. O here in front of me, it was my understanding that lwhenyou"wrotetheRev.O,thacyouweretheonethat ... ~..., -. r s -.. 39 I ) ~' referenced a."randcm revi.ew," and then yoth.also had,this...**" 2'O ~j attachment which contains I don't know how many, 40 a,dditional 21 weld travelers that you had found deficiencies in, and you 42

were faithfully reporting these in this nonconformance.

23 A. That's correct. 24 0 Now, in my interpretation (and tell me if I 3 l l j

69 1 wrong),I 2 I ] l 4 5 My question is, do you have ariy personal 6 knowledge that any subsequent revisions from Rev. O of the 7 NCR only f unctioned as a request for testing or review or 8 analysis, or whatever you want to call it, of just these, 4 as opposed to all that may have been incomplete? I have 9 a concern that maybe only these were addressed and not all 10 11 others that you did not reviev. / 12 A. I understand your concern. You would have 13 to ask -- 14 0 But you don't have any personal knowledge as to how that was handled? 15 16 A. No, sir. You would have to ask the person i 17 I who did the revision. I didn't do the revision. 18 ~ 4 All right. Are you patisfied, 19 witti the "usi as is'" dispos 5.tien on the weIds'that yb6 * " ~ ~~ 20 ( identidied in your NCR' 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Basically, Quality 22 l Engineering or Engineeririg had said, "This is acceptable. 23 ' We will do these things, and this makes it acceptable." 2a 25 l

to 1 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 2 O As far as Rev. 0?- \\ 3 A (Nods head. ) ) 4 0 Okay. 5 A Do you want to know how I became aware of the j 6 rev.~/ 7 G Of subsequent revisions? 8 A Yes. 9 G Yes. Why don't you say when you learned 10 n , about Rev. 27 THE WITNESS: I just learned about Rev. 2. 12 When you looked at that document? 13 THE WITNESS: When I looked at that document. 14 I wasn't aware Rev. 2 had been issued. 15 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 16 0 Okay. Obviously, that's something for somebody j7 else to figure out. 18 . - Well,' you 'v'e g'oT 'to End~eYstafid th'a't w'e 'are ~ ~ ~~~ ~I '~ A-39 k ,o l 0 I have a concern that maybe the intention of 22 l your original NCR may have been either misunderstood or 2,. limited by somebody else who revisioned it, which could'have 24 those ones jresultedinareviewthatonlyencompassedjust 25 t l l l l

71 1 that you identified on your original NCR. That's a concern 2 ' that I have, and I guess I will' continue to have l't'until 3 I learn differently. d Well, perhaps the most useful 5 thing -- 6 MR. GRIFFIN: Talk to -- 7 Someone who was involved in the 8 revision. I think that's the most fruitful way. 9 MR. GRIFFIN: Sure. It has been my experience 10 out here, a lot of times I do go back to the 11 originator of these NCR's. 12 THE WITNESS: Do you understand the intent 13 of the original NCR, Rev. O, what I reported there? Is there 14 any question in your mind? 15 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 16 0 Did I read earlier -- Le't me see here. If 17 f I understand correctly, your concerns were the quality of 18 .the welds were indeterminate. f ..~...,..,.s Due to incomplete documentation. i ,~ 19 A- ~~ 1 .O Yes,.and that you applied hol_d. tags..,I., don.'.t- - 70 - l have Rev. O here in front of me, but was it the same4disposi-21 l 22 tion that appeared on Rev. 2, that they would be tested? It appears to me about the same disposition. 23 A 24 0 Your recollection is -- 1 A Yeah. 25 j J

72 l 1 0 Okay. I wasn't aware of the disposition. I i 2 l A As I just looked at Rev. 2 a second ago, I 3 ' can't remember exactly what it said, but it struck *me as -- 4 g Similar, same disposition? 5 A I've seen Rev. O NCR. 6 The language Mr. Griffin read ~ 7 to you, that generally characterizes what you 8 remember writing in the NCR in Rev. O, isn't that right, 9 what he read to you 15 or 20 minutes ago? 10 THE WITNESS: Right. A random review was 11 , performed. Incomplete documentation is discovered. We have 12 a trend here; there was this many. I didn't go through all 13 hundreds and hundreds and hundreds. 14 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 15 D 'And based on your seeing subsequent revisions 16 of the NCR, you realize now that the word 17 O 18 A (Nods head. ) 19 G Someone had tak n a ,~;.;,. _-- . ~. jn" 'A Theword[' 21 22 l' 23 - another point we 1 24 might want to clarify. You identified on an attachment certair. j weld numbers to the NCR. Did you identify ~all those that 25 i i

l 73 f l l' you discovered that had missing points? 2 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. i 1 3 Okay. 4 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 5 0 have I or any other NRC representative lhere,andofcourse,theonlyotherpersonherebesides 6 7 is the court reporter, threatened you in any raanner 8 or offerec you any rewards in return for your statement today? 9 A No, sir. [ I distinctly recall you threatening 10 1.1 jtowithdraw coffee if weren't forthright in this 12 interview. 13 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 14 0 Have you given this statement freely and l 15 voluntarily? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 i D Is there anything further you would like to . add to the record to your testimony here today? 18 ..,. s -.......... I can't think of anything at this point. Do A. 19 ? y'oti.haYe any. further questions? . ~,..,

fo -

1 If I do, I'll call { MP MR. GRIFFIN: No. 21 and tell I want to do the whole thing again, which is 22 l a? ways a possibility. 23 24 And I will oppose, of course, I 25 on your behalf,

f 74 1 THE WITNESS: I am glad to try to clear up 2 any point I can. 3 MR. GRIFFIN: I appreciate that. ] 4 We will go off the record at 11:27 I t 5 (Discussion off the record.) 6 MR. GRIFFIN: Back on the record. I 3 as something he would like to h 7 8 add to the record. It is 11:28. Go ahead, 9 THE WITNESS: Wewere{ f 10 -] 11 But I did want to let you know that a few days 12 later' 13 j 14 3 15 l I was asked a few questions subsequently 16 afterwards, but that was basically probably the last real 17 18 . contact MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. I appreciate your filling 19 . ~,.. g0 - 't' hat in. ~ ' - . - ~ [ And, M I would (like ~ 21 to make a clarifying point, too, that I think would be useful 22 1 in line with your comments you have just made. i 23 At the time you and 74 25 s

75 2 3 THE WITNESS: We would all be involved in it. 4 MR. GRIFFIN: That's correct? s 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. It was possible 6 7 f 8 9 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. I think I understand. 10 Anything else, 1) THE WITNESS: No, sir. [ ] Thank you for allowing 12 13 to clarify his testimony. ja MR. GRIFFIN. Off the record at 11:30. (The investigative deposition 15 was concluded at 11:30 p.m.) 16 /// 17 is /// ... ~ -,.. 19 ~ " ~ ~ ' ~ ~r .v... - - y 21 22 l 23 i I i 25 l l l

)

  1. 8 3

1 COUNTY OF TARRANT ) 2 STATE OF TEXAS ) j 4 I, Gay E. Denton, a Notary Public in Tarrant County 5 for the State.of Texas, do hereby certify that the foregoing answers in response to the interrogatories as indicated were 6 7 made before me by the. witness, after said witness had first been duly sworn to testify the truth, the 8 9 whole truth and nothing but the truth; and the above and l foregoing is a. full, true, correct ar.d complete transcript 10 of the proceedings had at the time of taking said investigativo 11 12 deposition. i Given under my hand and seal of office on this the 13 14 24th day of October, A.D. 1984. 15 16 Gay E.#Denton, Notary Public in Tarrant County for the State 17 of Texas. 18 ~.. My Comn.i,ssion 6.xpir.es.11,-19-3.4. 19 ~

  • * * ~ '

79.. i 21 22 23-l \\ ~ 2d 25 I l l

4-84-029 REPORT OF INTERVIEW WITH l twas interviewed by N Investigator H. N at the Comanche-Pejk Steam Electr CPSES). said' hadbeenemployedas[ l Investicator' ad been identified b s8 ] %said that it wasWunderstanding that a supervisory dech.;en was made to transfer the lirier plate from the American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) group to the non-ASME group, because it was believed the inspection of these liner plates was cover.. s - ef ,il non-ASME er -i r-I.- o s 151 gEtt:k ed 87E516 s 6 IIMM3 ' .j M{ ed reviewing at after had said said thatf / 'i.-.. hw - ,~g ..i 6 . EINN331

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A-84-039 was in and out of id]ll$recalledthat, had expressed concern nr job was being asked ~ aid not learn at at th ime were s re of the i crions they eeil ve that i sai ec dn represent fit-up and cleani ness inspections that occurred after the plates were in the building. 1 e l mm-- i EXHIBIT (12) a 4

4-84-039 REPOP,T OF INTERVIEW WITH at the omanc e Peak Steam Electric Station (CPSES ervi ed NRC CPSES. said M sai. E l. f.1 told '.' .a ~ pm reca e. ~ fg, ~ ' ~ ) ma that el e r, l y., -,, I had heard that said-was _understan 1 at the sal understood thef EXHIBIT (13)

i, P l UNITED STATES OF AMERICA I ~ NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2 3 TEXAS UTILITIES GENERATING I i COMPANY, et al. Docket Nos. 50-445 I d 50-446 X (Comanche Peak Steam Electric i X Station, Units 1 and 2) I 5 i \\ l 6 i QA Meeting Room 7 Administration Building i Comanche Peak Steam Electric 8 I Station d Glen Rose, Texas 9 Thursday, October 18, 1984 10 l e I INVESTIGATIVE DEPOSITION OF I w 11 i i 12 PRESENT: t On Behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission: 13 H. BROOKS GRIFFIN, Investigator 14 l Nuclear Regulatory Commission j U. S. l Region IV 611 Ryan Plaza Drive, Suite 1000 15 t J 76011 l Arlington, Texas f 16 l On Beh.alf of I 17 l L. i I 18 l ,L r l 19 l s. ~ 20 l V i 21 22 23 24 I 1 I/ l f 25 i EXHIBIT (16-i 2 g &.ee yp g W h

2 i EEEEEEEEEGE 2 1:19 p.m. 3 MR. GRIFFIN: For the record, this is an inter-lViewof who is employed'by Brown & 4 5 Root, Incorporated. 6 ! The location of this interview is the Comanche 7 Peak Steam Electric S'tation. The date is L. 8' 9 Present at this interview arel 10 11 ] 12 For the NRC, I am H. Brooks Griffin, Investigator 13 This is being transcribed by a court reporting 14 service. J5 l { I need you to stand, and I need to swear i 16 you to the contents of your statement. 17 ' Whereupon, 18 l j .. ~.. 19 having first'been duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole yo t' rut-h [nd nothing but the-truth, was examined and tdstified'" l 21. n his' oath as follows: ( 22 EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 24 Q. S I need to ask you a question. . Tor the 25 purposes of this interview, is your perjonal l i / I i

3 l 1 representative? t 1 2 L Yes. 4 3 0, Are you aware that 4 -- not this interview, but other partier i 5 ltothehearing? 6 l A. Yes, sir. l 7 MR. GR'IFFIN : { would you explain 8 the natuzi of the relationship you have with M for L ~ 9 the purposes of this hearing. 10 Yes. I am representing ! personally at this interview. This has been reqsested by 11 l 12 ~ yourself on behalf of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission. 13 In preparation for this interview, in my initial l !l consultation with. M I explained to % that I 14 15 16 17 18 .. ~... - r~. ~ 19 i f 21 22 J 73 I have explained to

that it is e neeivable that there could come a time in my representaticn 24 25 of other parties, other individuals and corporations that M*,-

4 ~ l l

4 l I conceivably could raise an issue of conflict of interest, but 2 I do not see any present conflict nor any likelihoos that 3 such a conflict could arise. I explained to g however, that if such a d I 5

conflict did arise or if I perceive that any part of my

{ 6 representation of was leading to a point where a conflict I' ould immediately request that the pro-7 could arise, that w B ceedings be brought to a halt, thatIwouldconferwith{ fprivatelyandexplainto f that such a conflict might arise, 9 10 and aweit further instructions from bout how we \\ l should proceed. 11 i i 12 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 13 0 did you have any choice as to whether 14 ! you had counsel represent you? l 15 i A Yes, I did. I 16 Q And it was your choice that be your personal 17 representative? 18 A Yes, it was. i I might state for the record that 19 l l 70 --- i.t is Ny understanding that it is the util.irty.'.s poQey.that-- 21 all persons who are being interviewed by the NRC havq the 22 option to request counsel; and if they do request counsel, 23 that counsel be provided for them by the utility. 24 MR. GRIFFIN:

Okay, in relation 25 to that statement, I would like to contribute to the record

[ ..g i

a 1 the fact that as an investigator for the NRC I have interviewed 2 personnel at Comanche Peak on a reoccurring basis; 'almost 3 on a weekly basis. The majority do not request representation; 4 nor are they notified by the utility that representation 5 will be made to them. 6 As an NRC investigator, our policy is that 7 the person has a right to a personal representative of his 8 l choice. That can be a fellcw worker or anybody else. 9 l I think, if I might characterize it, the policy 10 that you stated is enforced in varying degrees from week to week, and in this instance, because this is an issue before 11 l 12 i the Board, I think that maybe more people were aware that i 13 i they might want counsel. i 14 I have already interviewed a number of people 15 on the same' issue that I am going to be discussing with ie m 16 and some were notified, some were not. So each l 17 week when I come down here, I find a different situation; is and Ehe policy that you stated is applied differently from ~" ~ "~ ~ 19 a week-t'o-week basis. ~' g. ./ -Let me contribute anotheAjwo.. --- l 21 ! cents to the record. That contribution would be to rgquest 22 that you provide names of employees that you desire to 23 interview so that the policy can be made known to them. 24 I think that where known, where the request 25 for interviews is known, that it has been the policy to advise .P ' y j -E

6 1 employees of the right that in this case has chosen 2 to exercise. 3 We would like to make sure that all employees 4 have an informed basis to make a judgment as to whether or 5. not they care to be represented personally or not, and if i I 6 l so by whom, which is certainly their choice. i 7 l It is important, I think, that we all recognize l !therightsofindividualstoberepresentedandtomakethat 8 i right known to them so that they can make an intelligent I 9 l 10 ! decision as to whether to exercise it or not. 11 MR. GRIFFIN: I can tell you that the NRC's 12 policy is that they have a right to representation. That I fdoesn'tnecessarilymeanthatwenotifyasamatterofcourse 13 14 each person that we interview of this right; but if they 15 l express the desire to be represented or have somebody present, i 16 l we do. I have noted your request that this policy 17 exists and your preference that the NRC discuss the potential 1g l ~ - e..... [ interviewess prior to the interviews so that they can be 19 ? t 26 '" 'm5de aware of the'ir rights As the policy -ex4sts with'in, the. ~ ~ utility'. t 21 i As I understand it, it is not 22 3 23 only utility policy, but it's NRC policy that people have l); 24 this right. I think that the right can only be effective j i if the individual employees who are requested to be interviewed 25 9 i

7 1 are inf ormed of-the right and have an opportunity to make 2. an intelligent decision as to whether to exercise it or to '3 waive it; and if they choose to exercise it, how t' hey choose !toexerciseit. 4 5 I think in recognition that it is the NRC policy i 6 l and the site policy.to permit personal-representatives to 7 represent individual's, that all persons interviewed should 8 be informed of that right. 9-l Otherwise, the right, in my judgment, turns 10 out to be meaningless. { MR. GRIFFIN: Well, I note your personal feelings 11 12 on this. 13 l I would like to point out, though, that the 14 lNRChasjustcompleted'whatIwouldtermamassiveinspection down here where you had 50 or 60 NRC personnel, or agents 15 16 for the NRC, having almost numerous day-to-day contacts with 17 ! just about every phase of construction and startup out here. i To my knowledge, none of those people, the issue of repre-18 ....,.7 l sentation during all of those contacts neither came up nor 39 -i ? 20 -q d'id.they provide waivers, nor was the policy that y.5q,.,have -"' lstatedimplemented. ( 21 S I can't help but believe that the interviews 22 that I have conducted in which the policy has been brought 23 to the forefront is the exception rather than the norm. 74 I am not in a position to tell you that the 25

v i

l l il ll ,l

I 8 I 1 NRC is prepared in the future to notify you or your law firm 2 of all parties that we wish to interview, meaning myself 3 or the site residents or any other part or division of the fNRC. 4 5 Let me be clear. I have not re-6 quested nor do I intend to request that you notify me or 7 my law firm. The appropriate person to be notified is the 8 l site management to whom the per. son you wish to interview 9 reports. 10 l MR. GRIFFIN: Well, I personally for my own i g) convenience normally go through ,Of 12 course, that doesn't mean that one of your attorneys is on Itwouldindicatethat%didn'thaveachanceto 13 site. 14 prepare the witness, and I am just saying in the interest 15

of time and the Commission's needs, we do not send notifica-i tion down here to or any other part of the Applicant, 16 17 either at this site or any other site in the country, that gg we are coming down to interview any particular personnel.

We come down. We have issues, and we follow ), 2"O ; the -logical paths'that wila dead us to the answers t6e, ~" lCommissionneeds. ( 21 Our needs are understood by not only the 22 Commission, but the Boards and the utilities. Certainly, j 23 7j the individual parties have a right to representation. I i cannot guarantee to you that every time I want tkinterview 25 ,.y i. Y

9 I somebody in the f uture, that I will notify each and every i 2 party, because in the course of a year I may talk'to 200 3 people out here, and I tnink that may be a conserv'ative i 4 I figure. i 5 It's just not our policy to pre-notify the i 6 { Applicant of who we plan to talk to, because a lot of times 7 ' we don ' t know; but that's something we are going to have q l 6 ' to work out. 9 Fine. Let's do it off the record. 10 MR. GRIFFIN: I will make your feelings on 11 ' this known to other parts of the NRC, and maybe next time ) 12 we come across this there will be an answer. l M I'm sorry we had to put you through all 13 lthis. I'm not sure we accomplished that much. 14 15 BY MR. GRIFFIN: i 16 0 If we could start off by -- if you would, tell 17 me what your present position is out here? [ 18 A ..._.J. Whoisyour{ 19 0 ) . ch. ,.,. !..r m 21 'O. So you are a Brown & Root employee? ( l 22 A (Nods head.) 23 0 How long have you been employed here? 24 L m.; ) 25 i

t 10 1 g Have you 3 A. Yes, I have. % as you are aware, I have interviewed other 4 O I I lpeopleonthis,and has attended one other. interview. 5 I 6 It is my understanding that you all have had an opportunity 7 , to go over your testimony, or your potential testimony. l 8 ,i If I am accurate in my understanding, if it's' j 9 agreeable with you, I think as indicated that 10, you could expedite things by maybe giving a narrative'of 11 what your participation, what your understanding of this 12 program was, 13 14 15 If you could explain to me the course of events 16 ' that you recall, then we may be able to expedite things. 17 Otherwise, we can go just question and answer, whichever 18 ! you prefer. j \\,If I may add, M what I suggested j9 ~ - 2'O ' j to Mr. Grif fin this morning ~'was that you-jest start eft the' l beginning whenI 21 and what you did from the time you learned 2's 23 about the issue until it was resolved. 74 Just take him through chronologically what 25 happened, and that might save us all some time.j I l I

I 11 1 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 1 I 2 G Right. This is agreeable to me, and then I ) can ask questions as they occur to me. \\ 3 I would like to { casually make or informally make you aware that in investi-4 t 5 gating this particular issue and 6 it's my understanding there has been j testimony taken before the Board, the NRC's TRT team has y i . explored this issue, and I gather from information I have B 9

received from various parties that Brown & Root and the Applicant here have invested a great deal of time in going 10 11 through these issues.

12 l It has come-to my~ attention, also, that even the Intervenor and other related groups have explored these 13 ja j issues, too. l.. 15 l' In this case, I'm afraid my little division 16 of the NRC, the Office of Investigations, is making the { t fourth or fifth or sixth pass through this same information. 37 18 I know it may seem to some that we are 19 i belaboring'the' point, but we have a n,eed to find out the i

20. ;. events. as they occurred, not ~just what the"'do....c umen ta tio'n' l

21 shows. l \\ 22 So if you can do as suggested or f 23 indicated, going through a chronology, it would be very 74

helpful, i

? 25 A. Okay. Well, on the 2I f \\ l l

44 q So many things have transposed believe it was last spring. 1 2, in the time frame. I What we were dc;ng 3 f' i [ . 2b.; [:'l.'. f 2 ; r. Y. 2,..?. 7 4 is we -..l ' at that time. a 5 It had nothing to do with We were implementing procedures, and so forth like this, 1 I 6 ; 'y- -l s'. ',.:) l !* b 7 3ust an' .L _ l.  :  : i ~ 6 3 The [ ,,,./ JL; _. ' f :.. ' A b i 9 .( 39 ._ ;.l:l ^ 's:O! l.Y.b'.'.X?S O ii 12 i over what he had and -- i So we went 13 l l What did l Could you be more specific on that? \\ (L l 14 l i ' he have? 15 and M Well, k had the drawings, A 16 17 ~. ' " l. 7.....L - l. '. ]. ;. '..' ' ' T0,; '

  • f.: j "i]. i, -'fff ];7.f.}$- [1.. hK F; "

~ ~ ' 6 18 So what I did, ~ 19 .d ~ ~ f 1 20 b Who was that? 2 21 w y. u.:e.e.: w : q We u ....;...s.... ++,,,,f. +._ $w. f- 'i,, 25 -x

13 i 1 if they were just started or where. 2 Once then we g 3 5 We 6 In one of their offices there they had i 7 What we ended up doing, I asked } 8 to use 9 O We are going a little quicker here than serves 10 my purposes. I would like for you to explore a little more 11 closely or in more detail how the decision was made, 12 j 13 14 15 l 16 A. Well, that's what I was leading up to, because this time frame I am talking about was the time it took just 17 to get a grasp on how big the situation was' 18 .. ~...,.. I9 Once<we gathsred from[ ~ 2'O j 21 O We will stop there then. How did the realiza-22 tiOU 23 Here you already aware of that when you -- 74 A. No, I wasn't. 25 _f l l + J

14 1 0 How did you become aware of that? remember whethe$ g 2 L Truthfully, I don't 4 l l lM 5 6 But when got all this stuff together, then 7 started compiling it and seeing which -- 8 O But I still need some information here. The i I e 9 lwayIseeit, and tell me if I'm wrong, 10 11 12 13 l l 14 I 15 16 is that right? 17 A Right. 18 l D And so you all were casting about 19 g-M.. 'A Well, we had to figure out what existed, you 21 l

know, 22 23 It might be useful to find out --

24 guess the dates of employment would confirm it. I 25 i i

f l 15 ( N 2 MR. GRIFFIN: I am not intending to go back 3 that far. l 4 i BY MR. GRIFFIN: 5 0 But you ] 6 Once % put it all together and had an over-7 A. 8 ! all look at what 9 10 11 12 i O Okay. What's your understanding, based on 13 what I suspect was a considerable amount of time invested to try and solve this problem before and since, M 14 15 l 16 What did they constitute? What did they stand for? What 17 are they? I la A. From previous knowledge of other sites that ._.~.,..-s 19 use this type of system -- you know, it used to be a common ? 2'0 - - t'hing, and any more it's gotten away from 4t...-It'Ci,n a ~ 21 checklist now, primarily. 6 22 23 24 25 O Let me characterize it and you tell me if I'm / \\ .. ~ ' \\

i l 16 i 1 right at this site, ] l 2 ,l a : l 4 5 i l A Personally, I can't say that's exactly how 6 7

it goes.

t 8 l 0 Well, in this process of solving the problem I ou had to make a decision, 9 i 10 did you not, or you did part of -- l A Yes, sir. 11 12 0 -- the decision 13 A Uh-huh. ja in arriving at this conclusion,I g 0

Now, 15 L

l i 16 \\ f A Well, let me clarify one thing because I'm j7 n t sure the question really lends itself accurately. I 18 .... ~... wasn't a' ware, or I'm not aware of hos,it'was exactly i6'the l 39 j I ,'.past., ....l 3 .O B t you did review the procedures, did you l 21 n t? 22 i A We 1 ked thrcagh procedures. We looked -- 23 0 24 1 23 ~ 5 l mu-

I 17 1 A. Yeah. I 2 g Obviously,.} 3 I 1 f A. Ri ght, but whdn you said it's 4 5

eummununummanused 6

7 It was a vehicle and it was a document that 8 lascertainedthat-- l 9 D Do you know who issued them? A. No, I don't. 10 l 11 O Do you know who -- 12 l }Idon'tthink had'finishec 13 answer. l BY MR. GRIFFIN: 14 1 15 0 Okay. What's your answer after, "No, I don't"? i No. It was the previous question 16 17 hadn't finished the answer. a . ~,..,... ~ " ~ yn ~ Iknowit{ 21 That 22 23 I do know. But when you said it's under the construction 24 program, I don't know what you.... + r 25 ,e

i 18 1 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 2 g What I am getting at - 3 I

muuammuummmmmm 5

A Uh-huh. I 6 l g And these things I 7 I am telling you that I j my understanding is that e 9 l 10 l l 11 ( 12 i is 14 15 16 17 18 .-- ~...- 19 ? i ^ 2'0 ' ' ' ' ~. ~~ 21 That's the only point I am trying to get at, l and that's my understanding. I don't know if that's your 22 23 understanding or not. 7, Then your 23 s J.

1 19 occurred]wasadecision - 1 because that was the j 2 enly evidence available to you that they had in fact oc' curred. 3 You can see the direction of my cuestions here. 4 I am trying to pin you down based on I 6 I am trying to solve this issue. 7 I woul'd like to know what I L 8 I what 9 they were. 10 A. Well, again, based on what you just explained, 1 i i 14 15 ] 16 17 I think a lot of times that the -- and what 18 we were looking at, 19 g g. ,t ] 22 When he climbs out of there, if he's been paged 23 72 or something, he's on the run, or I don't know. 25

20 1 g Based on your discussions and you all's attempts 2 to determine how to go about solving this problem, M i b a i 6 A It was one of the things 7 l D Was al'so another possibility that there may 8 h 9 10 A I think, you know, 11 -- -.r - g 12 O Well, I will just offer this to you. I have 13 talked to a number of people about this already, and there i I. is confusion all the way up to this date as to what those 14 I i l things represent. 15 16 I don't think that's a fair 17 characterization, Mr. Griffin. 18 l MR. GRIFFIN: You may be more informed on this l ~ - * - ... a 19 i subject th'an I, but I have talked to some folks. As a matter I ll df fact, there also were problems based on the. transia,,5 f rom' ~ ~ 2'O - l this f6rm to this form as to -- ( 21 I don't believe that's correct, 22

3 also.

I don't believe it's correct. I have talked to every-24 one, I believe, who was involved in this work and I don't 'S believe that that's a fair characterization of what I know c { i

21 i I I to be the case. 2 I don't think it's appropriate to -- If you l 3, are going to characterize what the, cuote, record'on this i issue is, I think it ought to be a complete characterization 4 5 i of what the record is. l 6 l MR. GRIFFIN: Well, it is probably pointless I I 7 for you and I to debate it, 8 9 10 i 11 l I have talked to some people that indicated I -12 there was confusion in their minds, and I am merely repeating, 13 whether it is useful or not, that there was some doubt. I I can assure you, based on the terdimony I 14 i 15 have taken, that; 16 i 17 l BY MR. GRIFFIN: 4 1 O What is your understanding ] 13 19 I 2'O ' l 21 22 'l 23 What is your understanding 24 which I presume you 25

reviewed at some point in time.

<F s l I l

22 1 A you referenced, in my opinion, was '~ 2. 3 0 For what? 4 A. s 5 0 Okay. Specifically, f A In this case, 6 7 0 Is 8 A. No. 9 0 Okay. So this is 10 if I'm accurate here -- 11 l A. Foryour{ 12 13 0 I have numerous others that aref'. 14 15 16 17 A-Well,- IB Ok'ay, sot $1 19 0 ,,.Jm 'A. If youf 21 22 ,~ 23 D But you are actually' s. 4 2s e

I 23 i 1 A' Not really. 2 O In other words, 3 I 4 A When you are doing p l 6' 7 i G In other words, you -- 8 A You are not 9 10 11 12 O I'm not arguing with you. I am just trying 13 to understand, because I'm the non-technical one here. 14 A Right. 15 O The only thing I am getting at 16 1 17 i 19 l A No. l Can they bo roose and you san.- just mde.,them " ~ ' 20 0 around*like this? ( 21 4 I believe that hasn't 22 l 23 testified on this point, but in the ASLB proceeding there's I believe

4 amons others, % that that testimony is from, 23 1

24 1 3 After theI 6 7 l MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. Well, help me along here. 8 l 10 ] 11

)Iamnotawi_tnes=nor-a-technical 12 j

13 expert. I am trying to characterize what I believe the l testimony to be. Perhaps a better person to ask is someone la I l who knows the technical issue on this. 15 16 F2. GRIFFIN: Can we go off the record and 17 explore this. 16 (Discussion off the record.) ... ~..... MR. GRIFFIN: Back on the record. It is four 19 l 2'O ~; m'inutes till 2:00 p.m. . ~,.,. l We have all had our 21 22 23 MR. GRIFFIN: Yes. We have compared notes

g on the blackboard and have reached an understanding of what 25 1

J. l

l 25 I 2 BY MR. GRIFFIN: I would appreciate it, Mif you c'ould 3 0 !j characterize what your understuding is now in response to 4 i l f 5 .j 6 l A. Well, see if I am right when I say this. What ? i 8 LN l 0 .] 10 A. With the I t 11 0 That is my understanding of 12 ' s 1 13 I don't believe testified that 14 l-15 16 i MR. GRIFFIN: Yes, I do. i And eeps telling you what 17 18 Those are two different, things. .. ~..., -..,, - BY MR. GRIFFIN: 19 ? , 2'O O here, -th en,- a ttait,., to, -- 21 l if not~-- 22

You are pointing 23

'.R. GRIFFIN: I'm sorry. I will find an 24 because I think that.,better 25 i i I i i

l 26 t l 1 illustrates the one I am trying to find out about. I have j 2 cuite a few here and it makes no difference which one it 3 is. d I have got S I 7 BY MR. GRIFFIN: B O What is your understanding 10 l 11 12 A. That the 13 d I 1 f 15 O In this instance, of course, 16 17 18 a.. 19 i A. Right. l 0 -- which says-2'0 - 21 22 23 t 24 In this particular case, what is your 25 e 1 l 4 i: i,

22 I understanding 2 A It

ammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmme I

~ 5 A For this 6 For the[ 7 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay, because you know, l 9 No, that's not correct. }Thishasan 10 11 and you can refer to that. 12 l BY MR. GRIFFIN: 13 0 It was rny understanding that le l t 15 l Is that your understanding? 16 You weren't involved with that? 17 A I wasn't involved with this. This was what 18 had. ~.....e~ - > ~.' ' ~ 19 j 0 The reason I ask you,this is because I have 2'o ' ' ' t'alk'ed ' to pe6pl6 'wh'o, as I stiated bef ore T IEsd' conf uti6n ' af ~ 22 l 24 25 l A The attributes that are presently,,: addressed i e i I E i

28 I on this specific one. You have d ! '1 7 l 8 ; G Let me volunteer something here. 9 i A Sure. l 1, O One of the explanations that I had that these i 11 ' ] 12 13 l 14 15 16 17 So we are left with the question here, or at 18 .least I am left with the question 19 .--q \\ w zh. % x 23 0 o};ay. The 2<, mmmmmmmmmmmme=== 25 l { iI

i 29 I It's also for the fillet welds, ~ 2 lBYMR. 3 GRIFFIN: d O on this particular one,., L 3 6 A To me, 7 8 0 here? 9 l A Uh-huh. I 10 0 Okay.

Now, 11 l

l 12 13 l l e 14 l A That: i 15 16 17 Q That was your understanding 's i 19 1 1 l 3< 22 ' A Right. 23 G And you were part of the decision inaking that 24 that was a legitimate -- 25 k

L 30 1 CL I and other people at the NRC have reviewed l 2 the old procedures. If we interpret the procedures right, 3 there should have been -- this is long before you'were here -- 5 l 6 Do you have a citation for that, 7 Mr. Griffin? It might be useful if we had the procedure 8 in front of us. 9 MR. GRIFFIN: The citatio io l Do you have that procedure with I1 12 you? 13 MR. GRIFFIN: I'm afraid I don't. 14 g Would it be useful if I got us l 15 i a copy of that procedure? l 16 MR. GRIFFIN: Well, it would be, but in 17 formulating my question, what I'm really doing is I j I am hoping to jog g s, memory. ja ..e - = -.. 19 If I am unsuccessful,in that, thenj probably 20 "

  • c'annot answer my 'questiorr, "but in that 4:a s!

~" ~- 21 22 2, 25

l 31 l' ii 2 THE WITNESS: Well 3 \\ ll s \\ l i 10 t BY MR. GRIFFIN: i 11 0 If you will take my word for this i, is 'h is 17 Now, were you involved $ i "i ,., - l m.., ~ 2i x ves, I was. i 22 l p 22 3me een, you x =, g E E E E E E E E W u n e r 25

l 32 1 i I l cari correlate it." 2 O And lammuner] 2 d A Let me clarify what you are asking. When we 5 were getting ready to put this together, 6q ) 7 I don't know if that answers your question. B 0 Do you know where 9 10 A No, sir, I don't. I 11 0 l '2 13 M) 14 A You mean did I do it by l 15 j myself? 16 0 Yes. Was it your decision or was it 17 A 18 i ..,. 7% - a -- 19 0 Nho was -- 2o -f*

  • A I'think 7 talked m well,
    • ~

21 22 23 24 25 l 0 Can we move ahead now to the events as l

i

33 described for the record.by I Are 2 you familiar with 3 l A.

Vaguely, 4

i i 5 i O Let's go through those. I have them outlined i 6 l here, and if you can fill in the blanks of what you recall, I 7 or correcting the record. i l Apparently, 8 e 10 12 l 13 A. Well, being the 14 -s 15 0 In this particular case, 16 17 ja A. In that sense, yes, I was gathe, ring this thing 7.,. 1 19 together.* 1 .g g.you 21 ummummmmmmusur] 22 23 A. I don't remember verbatim. I remember, you 24 know, approximately what 25 0 What were your instructions e I

I I' 34 1 l regarding 2 A. Well, first. let me clarify one thing. g;-- 3 l at that time, when it fiLJL started, 5 b Whatwereyourinstructions{ 6 g 7 A. All right. 9 l l l 10 11 12 13 Id 15 i 16 0 Somebody, and do you know who, 17 jg Do you know who did,that? - - ~ - e-Personally, I don't know the individual. I A. 19 think Et was a joint ef fort. - f. ~ 20 l -Q Whoever the individual was, do you know' what 21 department they were from? 22 E 23 2< SU 25 .. ~ 5

I 35 I 1 ~ 2 3 A. Well, no, 4 l O And the reason -- I'm asking you a question 5 l here. IsthereasonthatIg ] 6 l 7 A. Yeah. 8 0 Okay. Now, back to your instructions. Were 1 9 you working on the belief at that time f l io l ii 12 13 A. I'm not sure of your question, Brooks, but 14 15 16 17 i is 19 7 i 20 -- l

  • O Well / that'as "a
  • little dif f ertnt-Trom Wat I-21 understood it.

I

  • talked to Mr.

22 23 24 I was under the impression 25 \\ ~ i

36 1 A.

Well, p

( 3 O I'm talking about t 4 \\ 6 A Not to my knowledge. 7 O So their job was a little bigger; j sammm===mmmmmmmmmmer m 10 11 O { 12 A. As far as I can remember, that was about what 13 it was like. 14 9 okay. The reason that's confusing to me is i 15 Ithinkthethrustof[ 16 n M m) g.. Butyouaresayingthat{ ~ 21 6 22 unummmmmmmm 22

1mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmy 24

,r

5..

6 j .m m

_. _.. _ q m 37 i 1 .!w; d A Well, I don't know how to answer.the question. l 0 ] 6 A but I am hearing 7 things that are being presented, saying, l 8 9 If you go to the s .J tumumummuummmmmmi! a n Yougetthecorresponding--{ 12 A 13 14 0 Did you have this written down somewhere? j i A No, sir. l 15 16 0 17 A 18 0 Okay. b~'( / 19 ,,.. m i t 21

  • O Maybe I can expedite things here.

Let hne read s 22 testimony. This is This is not yours, and this is the part where a portion of this relating to %., testimony 23 24 as "Well, j 25 j r

-e l

I l 38 y 3 I interpreted this -- I may have taNen some I d liberties here, but I interpreted that l ] 6 7 A No, I don't believe that's correct. 8 I want to write down what page 4 9 you are reading from, Brooks. I l 10 MR. GRIFFIN: 59,518. I 11 And some before and after that? 12 I mean, it's a few pages before -- 13 MR. GRIFFIN: I start on Page 517. I think 14 the interview of a 15 I understand. I just wanted to lknowwhatpagenumberyouwerereferencing. 16 17. BY MR. GRIFFIN: l 18 D Is it possible, that 19 21 'A-I don't believe so, you know, and I'm trying 22 to recall. 23 0 Did you ~ u6 1. 25 A I don't know, truthfully. r

39 I It could have been either? 2 THE WITNESS: It's possible, I think,"if we 4 BY MR. GRITTIN: 5 i C And that's all we're talking about, E f 6 7 A Yeah, and I. don't know if we had every one 8 of them or just certain ones. 9 0 Help me along here. 10 ' 11 l 12 f A No, sir. 13 0 But

emunut i

15 L 16 0 If you had to guess, and

7 I'm asking just for a guess, 19 5 3 -'6 ) Do yes have any idea?

f. 'A Ask that one more time. I

, )

O I am asking you f or an estimate

3

.7 ? - A Nunber-wise, I'm not really sure, EroOks ut l 1

i l 40 1 D Would it be fifty, hundreds, or more? 2 A The area we are talking about is ~ 3 4 D The reason I'm asking this question, is 5 that I'm trying to figure out if' ' i 6 a 7 A. No. I might say they are that high. 8 That's what, approximately 18 inches there, % ) 9 10 MR. GRIFFIN: Is this somethir:? you have 11 explored before? 12 ] No, no. I want to make sure -- 13 Having had some experience with transcripts, when you and 14 hold your hands at various lengths from the table, 15 when we redd the transcript later, we are not going to have I 16 l Very useful information. 17 MR. GRIFFIN: Yes. A substantial, 18 inches 18 ' high worth of ,_;....n 19 ' THE WITNESS: A substantial number. 20'] NY MR. GRIFFIN':' ' ^ ~~ ~ * - ' ' 1. ~ ~' I ~ D I have got maybe a hundred here and thdy might 21 i I 22 ! be four inches high. So g had hundreds of them? 23 : A Well, when you take a package, you put it 24 together, you are talking about a manilla folder; and if 25 l you are talking about a height of 18 inches, yo,u might be 1 ~ 2

1 41 i 2 2 0 All right. Back on poinr, then, d'o #ybu linow 3 !h 5 A. I don't really know. f G At the time that you explained t 6 P 7 l 8 l 9 A. Not really. 10 11 12 O Were you the one 13 a 14 A. I explained what we were doing. All right. 15 i 16 t 17 i 18 I 19 20 ** j Were you with % t the *:.ime, 21 22 i or do you recall? 23 THE WITNESS: No, because I think what it was, 24 25 l The next n g.

i 42 2 3 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 4 O Do you recall giving 5 l l 6 ; A. I don't recall saying anything specific, you 7 a, know, to that nature. 9 10 0 Did you pointedly -- or express [ 11 12 I guess what I explained to' A. 13 14 You didn't know whether 0 15 16 A. Not for all of them, no. g You had some reason to believe that some of O 33 a 19 ~ l yn ] I 21 I From what I saw when I initiall;' looked at -- A, g 23 r I w l

i 43 1 g The reason I am spending so much time on this, 2 is that there's just a strong difference here "in the 3 testimony. You can't remember more than what you remember, 4 I realize that, but -- l 5 l A. Well, I think the thing -- and I'm not trying tojumpaheadorshortcutyouonanything.( 6 i l 7 i S i I 91 10 ] 12' O The distinction I'm making here, if I under-13 stand, I'm telling you . testimony indicates i 14 15 l 16 I 17 t 18 ... ~.... ~ - > ~........ 19 Not that was bei g aske ~ 20 -'l-21 o 23 24 E 25 y e i . ~ - l g t

i 44 i 1 I That's the reason I'm asking these questions. ~ 2 It's the reason I'm going into such detail. i If I understand your testimony, you are saying 3 I 4 that that was not your instructions, 5 -3 e 7 [usumunummmmmusumunuur 8' 10 11 l 0 I understand what you are saying. Were there r 12 others present when 13 A. Initially, I don't believe so. When I say l initially,j ja i 15 i 16 17 g At some point during your instructions, M 1B ~ - e. 19 s ". ~ -Let's ask iL kno 4., g.. D y u know who is referring to wher. he 21 l \\ says 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. The reason I am thinking 23 j a minute, two things come to mind. I think before in my 24 deposition I had said, when they asked me if Ignew g,~ 25 we 2 i

45 I at that time it didn't even hit home. 2 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 3 I O Oh, I see, so you are having some trouble here with some previous testimony? l d i 5 A. Yeah, and when you asked me if 6 I don't really remember. i

N i

9 O All right. Were you aware during that 10 particular evening that 11 12 1 i ,lN3 15 i Were you ever made aware of I i

g. - never exi, ssed it to me personally, and 16 A.

17 l I ..,~-e.- .. ~..... .. ~..... c 19 j 0 Do you recall any conversation with anybody ? ~~ 20 ~ 'tha't dvenincj I 22 Do you remember any conversation regarding MI 23 24 A. I don't -- you know, g 25 nd just for the record, this thing was going down I l i I

46 l 1 for a period of time, % name might have come 2 3 up in it because ] 4 0 Well, do you -- 5 I'll note for the record, and I 6 l maybe for your information, Brooks, if you review the ASLB 7 testimony, only among all the people, has testi - 8 fied or indicated j 10 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. Well, I must say I am i 'l 1) not -- I ' m not -suretat's '--~ ~ ~ 12 13 MR. GRIFFIN: I am a bit confused'~ab6ut that. la BY MR. GRIFFIN: 15 0 Did you give I 16 No, m x 'assoa ie 19

ell, I

m. 3,.. 21 22 22 2' E N' 25 / .r \\ s_

o& L. .3 47 1 A I think what was discussed, 2 3 immuuuuuuuuuuuuuuumur.] 5 0 You don't recall it? 6 A -- I don't really recall it. 7 0 Are you familiar with the fact that when 8 e 10 11 A No, I didn't. 12 G I presume you have learned that since? 13 A Yes, I saw it on one of your ones there. 14 O Okay. That was i l I don't suppose? 15 16 E ) 17 !.Ms. a A* Yes, sir. 39 ' ~ ? ~ '~ 20 ~-l-O By*uhat meany? ~ *- - ~.. ~E I 21 l i I O No. I'm talking about by what means did you 22 ~~ 23 l + 24 A You cal 25 l .f ~

48 1 0 So that was l ~' 3 A. yes. d Can I ask a clarifying question? 5 MR. GRIFFIN: Yes. 6 I ] B l 9 l THE WITNESS:

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's a 10 common understanding to them.

You can. If you 11 and 12 e l is 14 15 1 16 BY MR. GRIFFIN: g7 0 Well, I'm telling you that 18 testimony was that l h 19 l Fo'r the record, that is tct ely wrongpfbecause A. jo -- 21 22 23 3 i A. Yes, sir, only because that's a standard -- 24 ~ 25 O I'm not asking you because it's standard. I'm f

49 l 1 asking you because you have a recollection -- 2 A. Yeah. 5 0 Okay. Iesmuummmmmmmm6 6 1 7 i A. was told the same thing. I B g Did i 9 l A. I don't personally know, because once the 10 individuals worked the packages, it was -- you know, 11 12 13 O Let me ask you kind of an all-encompassing I 14

question here.

Are you aware -- in that this thing has been 15 explored by so many other people before I got to you today. l 16 i Are you aware of the fact that your testimony is in conflict 17 on some of these points that I guess I have been drawing 18 .out -- . 7% -.- w.... 19 With who,is the conflict? 20- 'Bk MR.'GRIFFINi' ~ ' ' "'~ ~~ 21 'O -- particularly related to 22 l testimony, and I would say estimony in some 1 23 cases. Of course, not all the people knew all things, but 24 I personally think I see some differences here, and the 25 differences are points that I choose to focus on. l a---

50 i i I can't make you remember any more than what 1 2 you know, and that's all I'm askinc for, except wh'ed'I ask 3 .you an opinion. f But I'll just ask you the question: Are you 4 l I 5 ' aware of the fact that your testimony is in substantial conflict on these points with other people that were in and i 6 7 out or present or heard your comments or have been interviewed l l or have been witnesses on these same issues? l g t 9 A I don't know what's in conflict, because I I I 10 l don't know what everyone else has said. O Okay. 11 12 , If you would like to focus on a particular point, I would be happy to le address 13 it. 14 ) MR. GRIFFIN: Well, I'm not going to ask him 15 i l to go back and research everybody's testimony. 16 I think it's fair to say that 17 18 1, 3-emmmmmmmmmmmmet.-.. as testified that 21 22 23 u 3 .5 25 y em

51 1 MR. GRIFFIN: Maybe I misunderstood, ] 2 but I thought it was more.than ' hat. t 3 4 Perhaps that was included as well. 5 I am clear that 6 7 MR. GRIFFIN: Immuuuu --9Elulull'Euummuunne e 9 ibut I don't know that that's a particularly crucial point, i 10 'J.n my Judgment. l MR. GRIFFIN: Well, I think here 11 l raised the crucial question. Were your 12 13 F 14 15 ~ THE WITNESS: It has 16 1 BY MR. GRIFFIN: 17 ) But 18 0

Well,

- o. ....~.....-y

you have'a'c' lear recollection that jp 2

2i A. Uh-huh. 22 0 Okay. 23 Well, I think we could all point 24 25 I

af & i 52 i i 3 l MR. GRIFFIN: I may be the only one here that I 4 l sees a difference in'the testimony. 5 No, I see a difference in the 6 testimony, but I don't know that it's -- p l 7 l MR. GRIFFIN: It's crucial to me. 8 I think that you have gotten from what%has-- 9 10 MR. GRIFFIN: I believe I have. I 'BY MR. GRIFFIN: 11 12 0, s contained in

estimony, 13 before

-- this is testimony. Before 14 l .__S 16 37

Do you have testimony on that I

ja . point? ... < - - ~ -- e - - - ~..... 39 MR. GRIFFIN: Yes, I do. ? 3g -- This.is a question to m,- ~ . i,., ~ 21 sumummmmmanummmanus 22 23 " ANSWER: yes. 24 " QUESTION: Di 25 3 I

i 53 1

  • ANSWER:

w: 2 3 l "OUESTION: Where did you go? ] 4 j " ANSWER: i' 5 " QUESTION: 6k b i 7 " ANSWER: I went in and talked tot g abt,ut what was happening. 9 "OUESTION: And briefly, what did you tell 10 " ANSWER:

Well, 11 12 l

i l f 13 i 14 15 j l "OUESTION: Was anyone else in the room with 16 17 " ANSWER: 18 - e.- '...... .. ~......,~ ' talking to. " ' ' ~ While you were " QUESTION: 39 d M.a g one c,ome,in? { 20.. " ANSWER: came 21 22 ; in. "OUESTION: About how long had you been in 23 to the best of your recollection?' 24 " ANSWER: 25 .a . T. I I

i 54 i l I "OUESTION: What was said when y 3 l " ANSWER: Well, first, C 4, 2 I 5 Meaning 6 was the question. 7 " ANSWER: 8 So I thought -- i 10 11 3 '2 sumuseummmmmusummer 14 I am telling you I talked to 15 sai didn't make those statements. 16 for the record, in 17 testimony, t 19 In fact, I think it reflects thE .dontraly. , o -- l MR. GRIFFIN: Anyway, I'll carry that a, step l 21 3and % said, 'further. I talked to 22 23 T 24 25 THE WITNESS: Yeah. -1 .s 1 7 .h' v I

l 55 1 j I also recall that 2 didn't recall that conversation. 3 MR. GRIFFIN: What? d I believe that the record also 5 reflects that in his interview did not recall 6 any such conversation. 7 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. I think stated 8 was in and out. 9 } testimony was was there 10 and testimony was didn't remember. I 11 j BY MR. GRIFFIN: 12 O Do you recall 13 Not the date. 14 A Truthfully, I don't. Doyouremembernoting( 15 O 16 ) i 17 A. I didn't make note of it, when it ended, because f I -- 18 ... ~. 19 0 Did they to you or did 2 20 ~ ,~, ;,. 'A No, because I believe 21 22 23 I didn't hear anything derogatory coming back, 24 t 25 so I figured it was over. g had what % needed. l! l

n n I 56 1 0 Let me go back in time prior to Back wherf 2 l i 6 i l Is that why 7 I 8 ! 9 i A. Well, let nie clarify, I think, because at one 10 n1 m % sumummmmmmmmmms3 [ -] u 14 The reason I was even involved, u u 17 le ymmmmmmmmmmes] t 3o--l - I a case %1ookIG,5 at- ~ ct It wasn't, then, 21 - 22 tumuusurl 23 know ho** p 6escribed it, 7g A. Well, I don't if said, M 25 1 .c J

at N l 57 1 but

said, 2

0 Are you aware that prior to the realization 3 l of this problem, or I guess when the problem was realized, 4 if I understand correctly, I b 6 7 8 A. had mentioned, you know, that they were 9 going to pick it up, and I don't remember where on the form; but g said, 10 t 11 CL Did ever convey to you the problems 12 13 14 l 15 16 l Again, Mr. Griffin, I don't think p l ithat's -- )g MR. GRIFFIN:- SDmethidg R rfo'ws ? * ' - - ~ j9 No, it's'an unfair characterization 2D _.... -. f what,

said, tatement, I think, 21 wasquitec1'earinsaying{

g ~~ 23 MR. GRIFFIN: Did I attribute that~to 24 If I did, I'm sorry. I am not spepking in 25 \\ 5 w I

58 1 reference to I am speaking in reference to 2 testified this morning 3 ] 4 j I 5 l MR. GRIFFIN: Okay. i BY MR. GRIFFIN: 6 j I O Let me refer to an unnamed reviewer, other l 7 i s than and ask you if you were ever made aware j1 9 of the problem among the reviewers, at least one or two re-j 10

viewers, 11 12 i

i 13 j 14 l A. No, sir. I don't really remember it being 1 15 16 , expressed. , E 17 0 The reason I asked is because there was a i 33 .pe,riod of time here 19 g.. I 21 just wondered if you -- my reason for asking I 22 i is to find out whether you were brought into the problem-p 23 solving part of that? i 73 A. No, because the only thing is, I'm not even 25 x r ..w j [. - .33 I

L 59 i sure that this form wasn't generated I - 3 Well, I think I understand what your knowledge I d I (L on the subject is, and I will leave it at that. 5 Let me touch on something else that you are 6 not directly connected with, but I just want to know if you 7 : I I B l have any knowledge. 9 10 Let me see if I can find a date on that. 11 I believe you said this morning 12 jit was 13 I think there's a very good chance MR. GRIFFIN: 15 Why don't <h. might be able to give me a one-word answer.- 16 we try it that way? 17 I'llaskmyquestionthatway,andif%knows l. 18 - > ~...... - ~... - m t 1 anything about it, then you all can -- 19 -Well, I think it's. 5 air tp.,give - -- 30*'; l } 'Ihi@an'opportunitytoreviewthedocument. 21 r MR. GRIFFIN: What document? i 22 I 23 MR. GRIFFIN: Okay, I will certainly do that. 24 I am just trying to find the point of reference @ere to see 4 25 t

l i 60 l 1 if it preceded or was after. 2 . I keep reaching for 3 that we have before us, I think. 4 MR. GRIFFIN: I don't think that references 5 it, j l No, it does not. 6 i GRIFFIN: lBY MR. 7 Iamtellingyouthatapparently{ B O 9 I 10 1 11 12 Maybe if I can show you a copy, if I can find 13 Ia copy of it here, you can tell me whether you had any 14 knowledge or anything to do with or its disposition, i 15 or anything, just any reference to it. l A All right. 16 For the record, you are showing 17 i IO l 1 E. ~~~ ~ THE WITNESSs 'No. ~ 20 ~; f 21 BY MR.' GRIFFIN: f l 22 O That didn't pass through your hands by then? l A Well -- 23 24 g Secause this m,mammmmuunupi 23 < -d I M l

l g_... i l 61 I A. The only reason I'm not aware of it or familiar '~ 2. is 3 I O Right. b l 5' & 6 ) O The only reason I, asked the question was that .\\m' 8 9 A. Sure. I l 0 To make sure I understand your preceding 10 11 testimony, I believe it was that during this whole affair i 12 of 13 Id j 15 l 16 h 17 i i 18 _, ~.,.-.c % -.- -...... 19 A. No, sir. I. 30-- MRt GRIFFIN.: do you have-any 2pmments?-~ 21 No, I think not. If I could, ~ 22 I would like to take a short break and go over a point or ltwo with' l 23 24 MR. GRIFFIN: For clarification? 25 Yes. p j . ?.. u

i 62 i MR. GRIFFIN: Sure. 1 2 (Recess taken.) i-3 MR. GRIFFIN: Back on the record at 2:57. 4 !BY MR. GRIFFIN: 5 0 do you have any clarifying remarks, you 6 or regarding your testimony here today, or anything 7,you would like to add? i 8 L Personally, I don't have anything else. 9 No. 10 l MR. GRIFFIN: Nothing, okay. I BY MR. GRIFFIN: 11 l 0 have--I-threatened you in any manner or 12 offered you any rewards in return for this statement? 13 A No, sir. 14 0 Have you given this statement freely and 15 ' voluntarily? 16 A Yes, I have. 17 l O I would like to say that I know that you and, 18 i of cours'e,(% also, fiabelo'n'e ~throlgh 'this at 'g'reat ~~ ~ ~ ~ 39 l!. length 7en apparpntly -- I don't know how many times,you have... 20 i been through this, the issue and everything; but the Commission 21 l has a need to know the testimony and that is beyond the bounds 22 f the ASLB because we are not 3.n'a' position to rely on their 23 inquiries. 24 I appreciate your putting up with all'this 25 uf

63 1 and appearing here today. 2 Is there anything further that you would care 3 to add to the record? 4 A. NJ, I don't have anything else. I i j MR. GRIFFIN: How about you? 5 l 6 Only that I take it that 7 ,will be given a copy of transcript to review and sign? I a l MR. GRIFFIN: Yes. I'm glad you reminded me i 9 You, personally, are entitled to a copy of 10 the transcript. What I need to do to meet NRC's policy is iI need for you to give me an address, like a home address 11 12 or something, where I can send this to you, to be received I 13 by you on your signature. I You are entitled to it. What you do with it 14 I 15 ,is up to you. This is an interview between you and the NRC. THE WITNESS: I see. 16 I believe what Mr. Griffin is 37 i 18 trying to say is you don't have to share it with me -- t ... ~.,.. m - > ~. -.. ~.. l MR. GRIFFIN: Unless you want to. 19 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ but I think the recorE phoul1:1 0' 50 j' l be clea'r that you also have the right to share it with me. 21 MR. GRIFFIN: Off the record. 22 (The investigative deposition 23 was concluded at 3:05 p.m.) 24 1 /// 25 j W l t

( l l l 1 STATE OF TEXAS ) 2 ' COUNTY OP TARRANT ) 3 1 1 4 I, Gay E. Denton, a Notary Public in Tarrant County 1 for the State of Texas, do hereby certify that the foregoing 5 lanswersinresponsetotheinterrogatoriesasindicatedwere 6 7 made before me by the witness, iafter said witness J l had first been duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole 3 e i l truth and nothing but the truth; and the above and foregoing 9 i h is a full, true, correct and complete transcript of the pro-10 ceedings had at the time of taking said investigative deposi-j) tion. 12 Given under my hand and seal of office on this the / 33 l24thdayofOctober,A.D. 1984. ja I l 15 WA U W 16 ~ Notary Public l Gay El Denton, in Tarrant Counry for the j 17 State of Texas, 18 ~.. My Commis. ion sxpires.ll-19-34. s 19 ? op - .s e ~ 1 yg l 8 21 22 l 1 23 24 25

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