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{{#Wiki_filter:Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
 
==Title:==
Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards Kairos Power Licensing Subcommittee Open Session Docket Number:    (n/a)
Location:        Rockville, Maryland Date:            Friday, February 21, 2020 Work Order No.:  NRC-0804                          Pages 1-63 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
 
1 1
2 3
4                              DISCLAIMER 5
6 7  UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSIONS 8        ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 9
10 11          The contents of this transcript of the 12 proceeding of the United States Nuclear Regulatory 13 Commission Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards, 14 as reported herein, is a record of the discussions 15 recorded at the meeting.
16 17          This transcript has not been reviewed, 18 corrected, and edited, and it may contain 19 inaccuracies.
20 21 22 23 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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1 1                      UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2                  NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3                                  + + + + +
4            ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 5                                    (ACRS) 6                                  + + + + +
7                KAIROS POWER LICENSING SUBCOMMITTEE 8                                  + + + + +
9                                    FRIDAY 10                          FEBRUARY 21, 2020 11                                  + + + + +
12                        ROCKVILLE, MARYLAND 13                                  + + + + +
14                    The  Subcommittee          met    at the  Nuclear 15 Regulatory Commission, Two White Flint North, Room 16 T2D10, 11545 Rockville Pike, at 8:30 a.m., David 17 Petti, Chair, presiding.
18 19 COMMITTEE MEMBERS:
20            DAVID PETTI, Chair 21            RONALD G. BALLINGER, Member 22            DENNIS BLEY, Member 23            CHARLES H. BROWN, JR., Member 24            VESNA B. DIMITRIJEVIC, Member 25            WALTER L. KIRCHNER, Member NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2 1            JOSE MARCH-LEUBA, Member 2            JOY L. REMPE, Member 3            PETER RICCARDELLA, Member 4            MATTHEW W. SUNSERI, Member 5                                ACRS CONSULTANTS:
6            MICHAEL L. CORRADINI 7            STEPHEN SCHULTZ 8            DESIGNATED FEDERAL OFFICIAL:
9            WEIDONG WANG 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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3 1                      C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 2 ACRS Chairman Introductory Remarks              . . . . . . .      4 3 NRC Staff Introductory Remarks              . . . . . . . . .        6 4 Kairos Power Introductory Remarks . . . . . . . . 13 5 Overview of Kairos Power FHR and Program 6 Development . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 7 Overview of Scaling Methodology Topical 8 Report (KP-TR-006)      . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40 9 Overview of Reactor Coolant Topical Report 10 (KP-TR-005)    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 53 11 Public Comments . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 64 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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4 1                    P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2                                                        (8:00 a.m.)
3                MEMBER PETTI:        This is a meeting of the 4 Kairos Power Licensing Subcommittee of the Advisory 5 Committee on Reactor Safeguards.
6                I'm  David    Petti,      chairman    of  today's 7 subcommittee meeting.
8                ACRS  members      in    attendance    are    Vesna 9 Dimitrijevic,    Walt    Kirchner,        Ron    Ballinger,    Pete 10 Riccardella, Matt Sunseri, Joy Rempe, Jose March-11 Leuba, and we expect Dennis and Charlie Brown later.
12                We have consultants, Mike Corradini and 13 Steve Schultz, and Weidong Wang of the ACRS staff as 14 the designated federal official for this meeting.
15                During today's meeting, the subcommittee 16 will receive a presentation on the design overview of 17 the Kairos Power fluoride salt-cooled high temperature 18 reactor, a new generation for a nuclear reactor, and 19 review two Kairos topical reports on the scaling 20 methodology for the Kairos Power Testing Program, and 21 the reactor coolant for the Kairos power reactor.
22                The subcommittee will have presentations 23 by and hold discussions with the staff, the Kairos 24 power representatives, and other interested persons.
25                The rules for participation in all ACRS NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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5 1 meetings, including today's, were announced in the 2 Federal Register on June 13, 2019.
3                    The ACRS section of the U.S. NRC public 4 website provides our charter, our bylaws, agendas, 5 letter reports, and full transcripts of all full and 6 subcommittee meetings, including the slides that will 7 be presented today.
8                    The meeting notice and agenda for this 9 meeting were posted there.              We've received no written 10 statements or request to make an oral statement from 11 the public.
12                    The first part of today's meeting is open 13 to public attendance.
14                    The second part of the meeting will be 15 closed        in  order    to    discuss        information    that's 16 proprietary to the licensee and its contractors, 17 pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 552BC4.
18                    Attendance      at    these        portions  of      the 19 meeting        that  deal    with    such    information    will      be 20 limited to the NRC staff, and those individuals and 21 organizations who have entered into an appropriate 22 confidentiality agreement with them.
23                    Consequently, we will need to confirm that 24 we have only eligible observers and participants in 25 the room for the closed portions of the meeting.
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6 1                  The subcommittee will gather information, 2 analyze the relevant issues and facts, and formulate 3 proposed positions and actions as appropriate by 4 deliberation by the full committee.
5                  The rules for participation in today's 6 meeting have been announced in the Federal Register.
7 There's a transcript of the meeting being kept, and 8 again, will be made available.
9                  Therefore, we request that participants in 10 the meeting use the microphones located throughout the 11 meeting room when speaking.
12                  Press on it until you get the green button 13 light to go on so that the transcribe can hear.
14                  Participants          should        first  identify 15 themselves and speak with sufficient clarity and 16 volume so that they may be heard.
17                  We will now proceed with the meeting, and 18 I'd like to start by calling on the NRR staff to 19 introduce our guests.
20                  DR. CORRADINI:        Brian, do you want to?
21                  MR. SMITH: Good morning, my name is Brian 22 Smith, I'm the deputy director of the Division of 23 Advanced      Reactors      and    Non-Power        Production      and 24 Utilization Facilities.            It's a long title.
25                  We  cover    a    lot.        Not  only  advanced NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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7 1 reactors, but also for the research reactors, as well 2 as the moly-99 production facilities, so a broad 3 scope.
4                  My staff and I are very pleased to be here 5 today to meet with you to talk about our review of 6 these        two topical      reports.          We    look forward        to 7 whatever questions you may have, and any feedback you 8 have on our review.
9                  We've been interacting with you over the 10 last several years on advanced online water reactor 11 issues, primarily guidance development, so we see this 12 meeting as a milestone of sorts.                      No longer talking 13 about guidance, but talking about specific topical 14 reports submitted by a reactor developer.
15                  So milestones, kind of big day. I want to 16 thank Kairos in advance for the overview they're going 17 to do of their design.
18                  I looked through the slides.                It looks 19 like it'll be very beneficial to the ACRS, and the 20 staff, as well.
21                  We want to thank the ACRS for assigning 22 Dr. Petti as the lead for this Kairos review. We look 23 forward to interacting with him and the rest of the 24 ACRS on future reviews of topical reports submitted by 25 Kairos, as well as any future applications that may NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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8 1 reference the Kairos design.
2                In performing these reviews, we used staff 3 from both NRR, as well as the Office of Research, and 4 I want to thank them for their efforts in developing 5 what I thought were high quality documents.
6                Finally, I want to note that the working 7 relationship between the staff and Kairos was great, 8 and that we were able to get through these reviews 9 without having to issue any requests for additional 10 information. So that's it for me.              Thank you.
11                DR. CORRADINI:        So can I --
12                MEMBER KIRCHNER:          Yeah.
13                DR. CORRADINI:        I'm sorry.
14                MEMBER KIRCHNER:          Brian, I just want to 15 ask a question.      As you approached this review with 16 Kairos or other potential applicants, are you now 17 using as a point of reference the advanced reactor 18 design criteria?
19                MR. SMITH:      Yes.
20                MEMBER KIRCHNER:            That's kind of your 21 substitute for the GDCs, in terms of having some 22 reference point to look at different aspects of the 23 design?
24                MR. SMITH:        Yes. We developed the ---
25 obviously that document.          I think we coordinated with NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 1 you guys on that.        Recognizing that a lot of the GDC 2 may not apply to some of these new designs.
3                In fact, Kairos has submitted a topical 4 report to us that describes their proposed principle 5 design criteria.
6                DR. CORRADINI:        Within that context?
7                MR. SMITH:      Yes sir.
8                DR. CORRADINI:        So, does that also imply 9 that        the application        will      use  the Licensing 10 Modernization Program -- I don't know the right name 11 for this thing, so I'm going to call it the short 12 name, the LMP, in terms of the process?
13                MR. SMITH: Yes, there's actually another 14 topical report that we have in house from Kairos that 15 lays out their approach for utilizing the LMP.
16                MEMBER BLEY:        Did I hear you right?        You 17 expect to not have a request for information?
18                MR. SMITH:      For these two topical reports 19 that we reviewed --
20                MEMBER BLEY:        You had none?
21                MR. SMITH:      We did not issue any.
22                MEMBER BLEY:        What led to that?
23                MR. SMITH:      The interactions that we had 24 with their staff directly.
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10 1 essentially?
2                    MR. SMITH:      Yes, we did.
3                    DR. CORRADINI:            We had a couple other 4 meetings earlier this week, emphasizing that it's good 5 the staff has informal discussions ahead of time.
6                    Is  this    part    of    the    reason  that      you 7 eliminated the need for RAIs, that you guys had enough 8 up-front discussions, in terms of --
9                    MR. SMITH:      Yes.
10                    DR. CORRADINI:        Okay.
11                    MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:            And that's a really 12 good thing.
13                    I mean, I've always been pushing for 14 audits        as  opposed    to  RAIs,      where      you're    having 15 informal        communications,        and    then    you  eventually 16 document it somewhere.
17                    A lesson learned from all the reactor 18 we're reviewing now, and since you're in the process, 19 that particularly reactor has then the SER, a lot of 20 areas where all the or the existing regulations don't 21 apply to me because all the safety features I have 22 that make my reactor more safe, which is great.
23                    But they tend to forget what are the 24 special characteristics of my reactor that make it 25 less safe?
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11 1                  And they don't really focus on that, and 2 they don't have a table on -- at least it says none.
3 They        really    didn't        focus        on    the  special 4 characteristics of the reactor.
5                  And this is something I'm just giving you 6 notice, like are you start sending description or 7 anything, I want to be looking for what's missing, and 8 I'm hoping that you have, too.                  Okay?
9                  MR. SMITH:      Okay.
10                  MEMBER    MARCH-LEUBA:            Because I    mean, 11 honestly, if you look at it from that lens, you will 12 see a lot of that doesn't apply to me, that doesn't 13 apply to me, that doesn't apply to me, and nowhere 14 they say ah, but this should apply to me and you never 15 thought of it.
16                  MR. SMITH: Right. For these new advanced 17 non-light water reactor designs --
18                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:            It clearly --
19                  MR. SMITH:      There's a lot of requirements 20 in Part 50 that are specific to light water reactor 21 designs, so there will be a good number of exemptions, 22 we expect, from if not, probably all of that.
23                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:              But I would expect 24 that just one or two requests to add requirements 25 because of the special characteristics of my reactor, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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12 1 right?
2                MR. SMITH:      Sure.
3                MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:              So at least a good 4 condition of why there wasn't any.
5                DR. CORRADINI: Can I just follow up? You 6 said something that maybe I should have assumed. Is 7 the applicant in a process of defining they're going 8 with a Part 50 versus a Part 52?
9                MR. HASTINGS:          Yes, and we're going to 10 talk about that.
11                DR. CORRADINI:        Is this an appropriate --
12 later today?
13                MR. HASTINGS:        Okay, fine.
14                MEMBER PETTI:        All right.      So, just one 15 more thing before we get started.
16                Because you guys are trying to catch a 17 flight later today -- many of you -- we were thinking 18 of making lunch just 30 minutes.
19                Go downstairs, you can bring something 20 back and eat here, but to try to compress that time to 21 make sure you guys have a margin to catch your 22 airplane.      Okay.
23                DR. CORRADINI:        All right.      Thank you.
24                MEMBER PETTI:        Yep, no problem.
25                DR. CORRADINI:        Go ahead.
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13 1                    MR. HASTINGS:          Good morning.      I'm Peter 2 Hastings, I'm the vice president of Regulatory Affairs 3 and Quality for Kairos Power.
4                    On behalf of our entire team, thanks to 5 the subcommittee for the invitation to introduce 6 Kairos,        our  plans    for    developing,      deploying      the 7 fluoride salt-cooled high temperature reactor.
8                    You'll    see    it    referred    to  in    these 9 presentations as the KP-FHR.                        And our first two 10 topical reports that are before you for review.
11                    Joining me today are our chief technology 12 officer, Ed Blandford, our chief nuclear officer, Per 13 Peterson.
14            They're cofounders of Kairos Power, along with 15 our CEO, Mike Laufer, who was unable to join us this 16 morning.
17                    Also here are Darrell Gardner, our senior 18 director of licensing, Alan Kruizenga, director of 19 salt chemistry, and Nico Zweibaum, senior manager of 20 the      engineering      testing,        all      of  whom  will        be 21 presenting later today.
22                    And we're also joined by Drew Peebles, our 23 manager of safety integration, and senior licensing 24 engineers, John Price and Margaret Ellenson.
25                    Next slide.
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14 1                Kairos Power is a mission-driven company, 2 and we begin every substantive interaction that we 3 have with a reiteration of that mission, which is to 4 enable the world's transition to clean energy, with 5 the ultimate goal of dramatically improving people's 6 quality of life while protecting the environment.
7                This is very important to us.
8                To put this meeting into context of that 9 mission, NRC approval of our design is a key component 10 of meeting the mission, and the ACRS participation in 11 that process is obviously an important aspect of the 12 approval.
13                Next slide.
14                This morning's public session will consist 15 of a relatively brief overview of our design and 16 development efforts, an overview of our two topical 17 reports, scale and methodology, and reactor coolant, 18 salt.
19                This portion is scheduled for about an 20 hour.
21                We may try to accelerate that in the 22 interest of getting to the more meaty parts of the 23 presentation.
24                Then we'll go into closed session and 25 drill down the proprietary details on each of these NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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15 1 topics.
2                Next slide.        Our design is a hybrid that 3 borrows attributes from other designs.
4                We use remarkably robust coated particle 5 TRISO fuel -- it's historically used in gas reactors 6 -- demonstrated to withstand extreme temperatures that 7 are well beyond the threshold of current nuclear 8 fuels.
9                Unlike gas reactors, we use molten salt 10 coolant with a very high potential for absorbing and 11 retaining radionuclides.
12                Our coolant is also chemically inert and 13 not reactive with water or air.
14                We combine these attributes with a low 15 pressure primary system into a design with substantial 16 safety margins, which enables us to think differently 17 about the size of our safety footprint.
18                Because cost of new nuclear builds is one 19 of the primary barriers to deployment, the small 20 safety footprint supports aggressive cost targets that 21 allows us to think seriously about competing with 22 natural gas, which is our primary initial market in 23 the United States.
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16 1 for the review of the topical reports.
2                  The design is currently in the conceptual 3 phase, and so a lot will change over the course of the 4 next several months, but this is sort of a snapshot in 5 time of where we are.
6                  Next slide.
7                  Kairos Power is a privately funded company 8 focused on the commercialization of the FHR.
9                  We were founded in 2016, emerging from a 10 UC Berkeley concept that was part of a DOE sponsored 11 integrative research project.
12                  We're based in the San Francisco Bay Area, 13 and have doubled our staff in the past couple of years 14 to about 120 full-time staff currently.
15                  As I mentioned, our primary market is U.S.
16 electricity, with an expectation to deploy broadly in 17 the 2030s, or sooner.
18                  We're pursuing our mission by way of a 19 determined and intentional approach to designing a 20 reactor        with  a  combination        of    remarkable    safety 21 margins and economic performance that enables direct 22 competition with natural gas.
23                  Next slide.
24                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:            Well, you mentioned 25 that -- you said U.S. energy.                Have you been affected NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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17 1 at all by tariffs and export control? Do you have any 2 partners outside the U.S.?
3                    MR. HASTINGS:        We're not affected by that 4 at this time.
5                    MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:            Okay.
6                    MR. HASTINGS:          We'll turn now to a very 7 high-level overview of the design and development of 8 the KP-FHR.
9                    Next slide.
10                    As  I  mentioned        earlier,      our  primary 11 initial target is competition with natural gas.
12                    Competing with gas requires that we think 13 differently, and cost of the plant is an important 14 aspect of our deployment plan.
15                    We expect to take advantage of the FHR's 16 robust          inherent    safety        resulting        from      large 17 temperature margins in the fuel, the large retention 18 capacity of FliBe coolant for fission products, the 19 lack of a high pressure primary system, and passive 20 decay heat removal, which eliminates the need for 21 safety-related power.
22                    All combine to reduce capital cost and 23 enable        broader    use    of    conventional        components, 24 conventional          materials,          and        fabrication        and 25 construction        techniques,        in  lieu      of higher      cost NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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18 1 nuclear-grade versions.
2                    Next slide.
3                    Our baseline licensing strategy for our 4 first deployment includes substantial pre-application 5 engagement, which Brian mentioned we've been very 6 active with the NRC staff in the last little over a 7 year.
8                    Followed      by      a      two-step    Part        50 9 construction permit and operating license.
10                    In  pre-application            space,    we've    been 11 highly        engaged  with    the    staff      with  submittal      of 12 several topical reports, the first two of which are 13 before you today, and the balance of which are all 14 about questions you asked.
15                    Our    principle        design      criteria,        a 16 regulatory gap analysis, and so forth.
17                    During the pre-application phase, we also 18 plan      to    submit  a    preliminary          safety  information 19 document, or PSID, which is a platform that's been 20 used a handful of times in the past for substantive 21 non-topical pre-app review.
22                    The PSID will look somewhat like an early 23 application, and will result in a preliminary non-24 binding review by the staff in a preliminary safety 25 evaluation.
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19 1            This  vehicle's      intended        to  provide    early 2 feedback on key technical issues, not dissimilar from 3 the Canadian Vendor Design Review, but with additional 4 flexibility in terms of content.
5                  DR. CORRADINI:        Has --
6                  MR. HASTINGS:        Mm-hmm?
7                  DR. CORRADINI: Not to slow you down much.
8 What's an example most recently the NRC has had this, 9 and has exercised this so they're aware of how to 10 respond?
11            MR. HASTINGS: It has been some time. There was 12 one for the MHTGR, there was one for PRISM, and there 13 was a third one that I always forget.
14                  DR. CORRADINI: So we're talking the '80s?
15                  MR. HASTINGS:        Yeah.
16                  PARTICIPANT:        Eighties, yes.
17                  DR. CORRADINI: Okay, well the only reason 18 I ask is personally, this is a very logical approach, 19 but I'm just making sure the staff is aware and ready 20 for your first blue box.
21                  MR. HASTINGS:        They are. We've discussed 22 it.
23                  You may recall a couple of years ago, 24 there was a lot of discussion about the development of 25 a VDR-type process by the staff.
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20 1                    (Simultaneous speaking.)
2                    DR. CORRADINI:        I remember you were here 3 talking about it.
4                    MR. HASTINGS:        And the staff were off to 5 develop such a program, and we sort of collectively 6 all came to the conclusion at about the same time that 7 if      we    use  the  PSID    format,        it  really provided 8 everything we needed with actually more flexibility 9 than the VDR process because it has a very fixed 10 format around 19 topics.
11                    The PSID can sort of be whatever you want 12 it to be.
13                    DR. CORRADINI:        Okay.
14                    MR. HASTINGS:        And so, we're working with 15 the staff now to narrow down what the topics are going 16 to be --
17                    DR. CORRADINI:        Within it?
18                    MR. HASTINGS:        Within the PSID.
19                    MEMBER BLEY:        Okay.      And you said it's a 20 non-binding document?
21                    MR. HASTINGS:        Correct.      So --
22                    MEMBER BLEY:        But it means you get some 23 advanced review, but if what comes out next isn't the 24 same, you might be starting over?
25                    MR. HASTINGS:        Exactly.
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21 1                MEMBER BLEY:        Okay.
2                DR. CORRADINI:          Yeah, but to follow up 3 Dennis' question, I assume the whole purpose of this 4 is to identify things that are issues early and --
5                MR. HASTINGS:        To address them.      It's all 6 about de-risking the programmatic portion of the 7 process.
8                MEMBER REMPE:        Do you have a schedule in 9 mind of how long you'll take for the pre-application 10 phase versus the construction permit application?
11                MR. HASTINGS:        We do.      That schedule is a 12 work in progress.
13                Our current plan is for a PSID early 2021, 14 with a CPA a couple of years after that.                        Those 15 numbers are moving around a bit, frankly.
16                MEMBER REMPE:        Thanks.
17                DR. CORRADINI:        Okay.        Thank you.
18                MEMBER      BROWN:          Non-binding      doesn't 19 necessarily mean you all might make changes, but NRC, 20 even though they provide feedback, they could change 21 their minds --
22                MR. HASTINGS:        It's --
23                MEMBER BROWN:            Based on a subsequent 24 thing, that oh, we've thought about this some more.
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22 1 comes to non-binding?          I just wanted to make sure I 2 understood that.
3                MR. HASTINGS:          Right.        Yeah,    that's 4 correct.
5                MEMBER BROWN: Since I haven't seen one of 6 these.
7                MR. HASTINGS:          Yeah.        And we understand 8 that risk, but it is all about de-risking the program.
9                MEMBER BROWN: No, no objection to the ---
10                (Simultaneous speaking.)
11                MR. HASTINGS: So the more we can get, the 12 better, obviously then.
13                MEMBER BROWN:        Okay, thank you.
14                MEMBER KIRCHNER:          Could I ask a question 15 of the staff just to -- a little quick digression.
16 What would you do if you get a PSID?
17                Would you do what was done in the '80s and 18 do like a preliminary SER kind of document?                And then 19 how would you review that?
20                MEMBER BLEY:        I seem to remember they did 21 a new reg as that part was done.
22                (Simultaneous speaking.)
23                MEMBER KIRCHNER:          Yeah, but I was --
24                MR. MAGRUDER:        Right, yeah.        This is Stu 25 Magruder, I'm the lead project manager in NRR for the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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23 1 project.
2                    And what we're planning to do is similar 3 to what we did for PRISM and MHTGR is to write what we 4 call a draft or preliminary safety evaluation report.
5                    It would be published.
6                    We would hope to brief you and get a 7 letter from the ACRS on that before we issued it, but 8 as    Dr. Brian  said,    this    would        be  all  based        on 9 preliminary information.
10                    It's not a final answer, but it would 11 serve        to  kind    of    identify        if    there    are      any 12 showstoppers or significant issues that Kairos would 13 need to pursue in different areas.
14                    MEMBER    MARCH-LEUBA:              But  the    topical 15 reports each will have a safety evaluation report with 16 it, and those are binding, right?
17                    Once you issue the SER, they can use it.
18                    MR. MAGRUDER: Yes. We'll talk about that 19 obviously later today, but you're absolutely right.
20 There's more regulatory certainty with topical report 21 SERs and --
22                    (Simultaneous speaking.)
23                    MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:            It has more --
24                    MR. MAGRUDER:          So this is all part of 25 their plan.
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24 1                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:            It has more value in 2 a sense.      I mean, it's final.
3                  MR. MAGRUDER:        Yes.
4                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: And once the position 5 --
6                  (Simultaneous speaking.)
7                  MR. MAGRUDER:          Although, there are, of 8 course, as you'll see, there are limitations and 9 conditions in our SERs --
10                  (Simultaneous speaking.)
11                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Which are actually --
12 - are also final.        Right?
13                  (Simultaneous speaking.)
14                  MEMBER BROWN:          How does that affect the 15 non-binding nature of the PSID if there's topical 16 reports that have a formal locked-in SER?
17                  DR. CORRADINI:          I    guess  it  would      be 18 similar to other examples, which is they've committed 19 to doing it a certain way within the limitation and 20 conditions, and that's holes, however the design moves 21 around.
22                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:            Unless they want to 23 change --
24                  MEMBER BROWN:        I'm saying just yeah,          the 25 non-binding nature is a little bit -- it's not totally NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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25 1 non-binding if you have a topical report SER.
2                  MR. HASTINGS: Right, so it's a continuum, 3 right?        From  a  PSID      to    a    topical  to  another 4 application.
5                  (Simultaneous speaking.)
6                  MEMBER BROWN:        That's fine, I just wanted 7 to --- it's another thing that got thrown into the 8 hopper.
9                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: They always have the 10 possibility of issuing Revision 1 of the topical 11 report.
12                  MEMBER BROWN:        Yeah, I got it.
13                  MEMBER BLEY:        Or issue a technical report 14 that adapts that one --
15                  DR. SCHULTZ:          And the limitations and 16 conditions will be very important for both parties.
17                  MR. HASTINGS:        All true.      And if there's 18 a topic that rises to the level of a topical report in 19 terms of maturity and readiness to receive a formal 20 review, you wouldn't see much discussion of that in 21 the PSID, other than pointing to it.
22                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:            Given the fact that 23 this is new technology for some of us, I mean, we are 24 too young to remember molten salt reactors --
25                  MR. HASTINGS:        Speak for yourself.
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26 1                  PARTICIPANT:        No, we're not.
2                  MEMBER BLEY:        We have a couple people of 3 that sort.
4                  MR. HASTINGS:        Speak for yourself.
5                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:                Yeah, well I was 6 making a joke.
7                  The methodology of topical reports, how 8 you analyze it and what correlations, you use and 9 everything. I assume you're waiting for the results 10 from the experiments to finalize those.                        Is that 11 correct, or are you working already on those?
12                  MR. HASTINGS:          Both.        So many of our 13 topicals are in two phases where the initial topical 14 is      methodological        or    phenomenological,          and      the 15 revision later would be with supporting qualified 16 data.
17                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:                So you're moving 18 ahead and doing Part A, and then just leaving the 19 appendices to be done?
20                  MR. HASTINGS:            In many cases, that's 21 correct.
22                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: That's good, because 23 for other reactors, which shall not be named, we're 24 reviewing methodology now after this here has been 25 issued.        So, that's not desirable.              You're doing much NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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27 1 better.        Thank you.
2                  MR. MAGRUDER:        Let me just add one more 3 thing. Brian reminded me that I should point out that 4 with regard to issue finality or kind of staff's 5 conclusions, this is different from Part 52, where you 6 have a design certification document and the staff is 7 actually bound by what we write in our SE for that.
8 This is under Part 50 space, there's no issue finality 9 for these types of issues.
10                  I  mean,      obviously        when we issue      an 11 operating license eventually, there will be, but up to 12 that point, there's no issue finality like there is in 13 Part 52.
14                  MEMBER REMPE:          So, your comment about 15 well, yeah, maybe there's more finality, but we've got 16 some limitations and conditions that might come into 17 play.
18                  And when I was looking through your SERs, 19 there are some interesting limitations and conditions 20 regarding -- like, because this is new -- well, it's 21 not new technology, but we've not been using it for a 22 lot of years -- if you see something different, we may 23 have some additional changes.
24                  And have you ever done that in a topical 25 report review before, or in recent years?
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28 1                Because I thought in some ways it's like 2 a get out of jail free card that you've put in, 3 there's a limitation and condition.                Have you done 4 that before?      Because I don't recall something as 5 different as that in past reviews.
6                MR. MAGRUDER:        So, I'll let the technical 7 reviewers talk specifically about that, but I think 8 these topicals did present some challenges because 9 there were so many new features and so many things 10 that we're waiting on.
11                MEMBER REMPE:        Right.
12                MR. MAGRUDER:        And so, there was a lot of 13 good discussion among the staff about how to write it.
14                MEMBER REMPE: But you have examples where 15 you've done that in -- I hadn't seen that before, and 16 it's a little -- I mean, maybe back in the MHTGR and 17 PRISM days, they did that too, but I didn't recall it.
18                MR. MAGRUDER:          I    don't  know  of    any 19 specific examples, but we can talk more later about 20 that.
21                MEMBER PETTI:          Certainly in the MHTGR 22 days, there were a long list of things that drove that 23 program for the next decade.
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29 1 questions.
2                I mean, they had specific items of where 3 they were looking into.
4                MEMBER PETTI:        Right.        Well, because the 5 technologies were a little more mature.
6                MEMBER REMPE:        Right.
7                MEMBER PETTI:        Right.        Keep on going.
8                MR. HASTINGS:        All right, next slide.
9                The goals of a licensing strategy are 10 straightforward.
11                The chairman has said in several public 12 forums that if we can't find a way to take advantage 13 of increased safety in advanced designs, we all will 14 have failed, and we certainly agree with that.
15                Kairos' intents to take advantage of the 16 significant safety margins of the FHR design, not only 17 to compete with natural gas as a way to accomplish our 18 mission of enabling the world's transition to clean 19 energy, but also to achieve the enabling goals that 20 you see here.
21                First, to get early acceptance of the FHR 22 safety case in order to retire programmatic risk as 23 early as possible, which is most of what we've been 24 talking about already this morning.
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30 1 enabling both economic competitiveness and true focus 2 on safety significant aspects of the plan.
3                  And third, to build flexibility into the 4 process invigorating the design so that every tweak in 5 the design going forward doesn't constitute another 6 significance licensing action, to the extent we can 7 achieve that.
8                  So with that, I'll turn things over to Dr.
9 Ed Blandford, who will discuss Kairos' testing and 10 development overview.
11                  DR. CORRADINI:        Ah, there we go.
12                  DR. BLANDFORD:        Excellent, good morning.
13 Thank        you. As    Peter      mentioned,      my name  is      Ed 14 Blandford.        I am the cofounder and chief technology 15 officer of Kairos Power. I'm going to provide a quick 16 overview of our testing and development program.
17                  Next slide.
18                  So, this slide we present in a number of 19 public forums. It pretty much encapsulates everything 20 that we do at Kairos.
21                  At the top, it outlines what we would 22 consider a conventional development cycle, where we 23 have a plan, design, build, test sequence.
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31 1 really trying to break down the cycles and really 2 accelerate development.
3                But Kairos' focus is really on the bottom 4 part of that slide that shows how we go through that 5 process through an iterative development effort, and 6 so this really encapsulates a lot of the activities 7 that we're doing today.
8                Peter had talked through our licensing 9 approach.
10                That's      an  example        of  that  sort        of 11 iterative, putting the early topical reports in front 12 of the staff, and walking through our technology.
13                So this really encapsulates a lot of our 14 development program.
15                Next slide.
16                We    recognize          the        importance        of 17 demonstrating our technology.
18                This is a very, very big part of our DNA, 19 it's a very big part of who we are and what we're 20 focused on.
21                We  recognize        that        this  is    a      new 22 technology, but it's an area that we see a lot of 23 opportunities.
24                We also recognize that there's a need for 25 testing facilities to support our development program.
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32 1                  So in this slide, it shows the progression 2 of      a    series  of    test    facilities          that    Kairos      is 3 currently invested in.
4                  It's  already      stood      up,  or  is  in    the 5 process of standing up.
6                  And it really starts with the first two 7 letters.        It's a little bit of a QRSTU.
8                  It starts with what we call our Rapid Lab, 9 which is a rapid analysis prototype and iterative 10 design lab.
11                  This is located in our headquarters in 12 Alameda.
13                  It's a part of our facility where we're 14 able to iterate quickly, so we use rapid prototyping 15 technologies        to    produce      components,        iterate      the 16 surrogate fluids, and really inform elements of the 17 design that are important.
18                  It allows us to move quickly.
19                  In parallel, we understand the importance 20 of working at the high temperature and working with 21 the prototypical fluids, and so we also have what we 22 call our Salt Lab, which is a facility that we're 23 standing up in our Alameda lab.
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33 1 the beryllium salts.          Slide.        In parallel, we also 2 have what's called our Testing Facility or our T-3 Facility.
4                This is actually a location that we're 5 about to open up in the state of New Mexico, in 6 Albuquerque, and this is an area where we plan on 7 doing larger scale qualification testing.
8                And so, we're very hard at work trying to 9 stand up that facility and those capabilities.
10                DR. CORRADINI:        If this is an appropriate 11 time to ask, where's that in New Mexico within the 12 laboratory structure?
13                DR. BLANDFORD:        It's in Albuquerque.
14                DR. CORRADINI:        Okay, but --
15                DR.      BLANDFORD:                So  it's          a 16 private facility, so there's been a little bit of 17 press, so it's in the public domain.
18                DR. CORRADINI:        Okay, fine.
19                DR. BLANDFORD: But it's at -- it's called 20 the Mesa Del Sol development site.
21                DR. CORRADINI:        Okay, thank you.
22                DR. BLANDFORD:        And then lastly, there's 23 a user facility, and this is an area where we would 24 anticipate training end users in terms of operations 25 and maintenance.
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34 1                  That's the one facility that we're working 2 towards today that doesn't physically exist right now.
3                  Next slide.
4                  MEMBER KIRCHNER:          Before you go on?
5                  DR. BLANDFORD:          Uh-huh?
6                  MEMBER KIRCHNER: So, your slide says non-7 nuclear.
8                  DR. BLANDFORD:          Correct.
9                  MEMBER KIRCHNER: So, have you a shortlist 10 or development and test plan for those aspects that 11 actually have a nuclear component?
12                  DR. BLANDFORD:        Good question.      So, we've 13 committed to both a nuclear and a non-nuclear test 14 program, and we'll get into a little bit more of the 15 details later on today.
16                  It's difficult for us to go in those 17 nuclear        facilities      today,      and      so  we  believe      a 18 combination of our nuclear testing, where we leverage 19 a lot of the DOE complex to deal with radiations and 20 do the type of work that we need to do compliments the 21 non-nuclear test program.                So it's a combination of 22 both.
23                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:                Can you speak up 24 louder?        They cannot hear you.
25                  DR. BLANDFORD:          Oh, I'm sorry.
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35 1                MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:              Can we ask them to 2 increase the volume?
3                DR. CORRADINI:            Yeah, that might be a 4 crappy microphone.        Try the one next to you.
5                (Simultaneous speaking.)
6                DR. BLANDFORD:          All      right. Is    this 7 better?
8                DR. CORRADINI:        Yes.
9                DR. BLANDFORD:        Okay.        Sorry, apologies.
10                DR. CORRADINI:        Just get closer to Peter.
11 You're colleagues.          However much you feel like you 12 have to.
13                MEMBER    REMPE:          What      about  the    fuel 14 fabrication capability, because it's not exactly what 15 we've seen even in our national communities.
16                There's some differences in the fuel, and 17 where will that be made?
18                DR. BLANDFORD:          That's a good question.
19 I believe we're going to be submitting our fuel 20 qualification topical report.
21                I'm not sure the exact schedule for when 22 we're submitting that, but that'll be a time for us to 23 really jump into the details of that.
24                So right now, some of that information is 25 actually proprietary, so.
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36 1                  DR. SCHULTZ:          Yeah,      excuse  me,      the 2 operations and training, the user facility, how is 3 that -- are you going to talk about that today?
4 Conceptually, it sounds like a great idea.
5                  DR. BLANDFORD:        Sure.
6                  DR. SCHULTZ:        But, how far have you gone 7 with identifying the details of that?
8                  DR. BLANDFORD: The details of it we don't 9 have fully fleshed out yet.
10                  Conceptually, I can speak we're at a high 11 level.
12                  So it's basically a full scale version of 13 the primary side of the plant, and it's an opportunity 14 for us to train operators with the real equipment, 15 from the whole spectrum of effectively inservice 16 inspections,      component        replacements,        and  getting 17 familiar with the technology.
18                  The concept is at a high level.
19                  DR. SCHULTZ:        Great idea, thank you.
20                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: And are you thinking 21 of a single module in a remote location, or are you 22 thinking of a multi-module with a single control room 23 and 25 units?
24            DR. BLANDFORD: I think that's to be determined, 25 and it's an area that we'll check --
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37 1                  (Simultaneous speaking.)
2                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:              But you're staying 3 open -- that would affect a lot of the training and 4 the design of the control room obviously.
5                  DR. BLANDFORD:          Sure.      And  just        to 6 clarify, the U-Facility and concept goes well beyond 7 control room, you know, training simulator.
8                  This was really working on the hardware, 9 so that would be a singular module that we would be 10 looking at.
11                  DR. CORRADINI: Ah, thanks. This might be 12 for the closed session.
13                  So from the standpoint of using this, I'll 14 call      it  challenging      coolant,        which  has  its      own 15 chemical safety issues, where is there experience in 16 the United States of this in the past?
17                  DR. BLANDFORD:        So, and this is something 18 that we can probably talk about in private session.
19                  DR. CORRADINI:          Okay, then we can wait.
20 Okay, fine.
21                  DR. BLANDFORD: But we recognize that, and 22 it's important to have the right partnerships and work 23 with the right people that have the prior experiences.
24                  DR. CORRADINI:        Okay, fine.
25                  MEMBER BLEY: You mentioned the training.
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38 1 Do you have people on the staff as you work in that 2 area who have actual operating experience?
3                  DR. BLANDFORD:        We do.
4                  MEMBER BLEY:          You know, engineers think 5 they're best at this, but they often get surprised.
6                  PARTICIPANT:        Very much so.
7                  DR. BLANDFORD: I would be remiss to that.
8 So, our vice president of engineering, Mark Peres, was 9 a former operator at FFTF.
10                  We do have people on staff that do have 11 operational experience, and that's very valuable for 12 us.      So I'm going to go ahead and pass this off to Dr.
13 Nico Zweibaum.
14                  DR. ZWEIBAUM: Good morning, everyone. Is 15 this mic better?          Okay.      Very good.
16                  As Ed said, my name is Nico Zweibaum.              I 17 am the senior manager of engineering testing at Kairos 18 Power, and I was also one of the preparers for scaling 19 methodology topical report, which I'm going to give a 20 brief overview of right now.
21                  Next slide, please.
22                  So, what was the purpose of that topical 23 report?        We are describing the methodology we intend 24 to use to scale both integral effects tests, referred 25 to as IETs, and separate effects tests, or SETs, that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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39 1 will support the KP-FHR evaluation model assessment 2 base.
3                  The report goes through the justification 4 for the use of surrogate fluids that enable direct and 5 comprehensive local measurements of the phenomena that 6 are under investigation, and the use of surrogate 7 fluids is due to their higher compatibility for high 8 accuracy instrumentation that is readily available, 9 for      instance,  to    measure      temperature      and      flow 10 velocities.
11                  The  intent        of    that      report    was      to 12 communicate and request the NRC review and approval to 13 use our scaling methodology with surrogate fluids 14 described in the report, namely, heat transfer oils 15 and water for testing, including in the assessment 16 base of evaluation models that support our safety 17 analysis.
18                  Next.
19                  So what is the scope of that report?
20 First off, we are basing our scaling methodology on 21 the well-known hierarchy called two-tiered scaling 22 methodology, or H2TS.
23                  This    generic      scaling      methodology      was 24 previously developed for and approved by the NRC.                        We 25 selected it for scaling of our thermal fluids, IETs NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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40 1 and SETs, and the methodology includes quantification 2 of distortions in the scaling.
3                  The  report      addresses        scaling  of      our 4 primary heat transport system, thermal fluids, IETs 5 for the KP-FHR plant at normal operating conditions 6 with forced flow, as well as transients that involve 7 natural circulation.
8                  And it describes the use of specific 9 classes        of  heat    transfer        oils      that  are    deemed 10 acceptable surrogate fluids for these integral effects 11 tests.
12            In addition, the report also addresses scaling 13 of specific phenomena in component level separate 14 effects tests that would also use a specific class of 15 heat transfer oil or water as acceptable surrogate 16 fluids.
17                  The figure to the right is mainly provided 18 for illustration, but is from the NRC's Regulatory 19 Guide 1.203 on evaluation methods, development, and 20 assessment process.
21                  And I apologize for the very small font, 22 but the element 2 of that process includes scaling 23 efforts and identification of integral effects tests 24 and      separate  effects      tests    that      are supposed        to 25 support our safety analysis methodology, and this is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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41 1 really        what  that      scaling      report    is about,        is 2 addressing those parts of element 2 of the EMDAP 3 process.
4                    DR. CORRADINI: This makes perfect sense.
5 The one thing though about your two surrogates are 6 that they don't freeze and they don't get gooey.
7                    So, is it your job to worry about that, or 8 the next person down the line's job to worry about 9 that?
10                    DR. ZWEIBAUM:        Well, so the report really 11 addresses what happens outside of that range.
12                    DR. CORRADINI:        Okay.
13                    DR. ZWEIBAUM: It --
14                    DR. CORRADINI:        Okay, that's fine.
15                    DR. ZWEIBAUM:        Yeah.
16                    DR. CORRADINI:        Okay.
17                    MEMBER PETTI:        So, I have a question just 18 to help me understand.            As I understand H2TS, I mean, 19 it was really focused on the coolant, right, in the 20 light water reactor, right?
21                    So I've got a heat flux with a -- from the 22 fuel rods that don't move that's static.                  Here, your 23 fuel is moving.
24                    This does not really apply to the movement 25 of the fuel in the core.                Is that a fair statement?
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42 1                DR. ZWEIBAUM:          So, our scaling approach 2 does.
3                It is true that H2TS doesn't touch this 4 specific topic, but the scaling that we've developed 5 includes pebble movement in the coolant, and this will 6 be one of the types of separate effects tests that we 7 will talk about today.
8                MEMBER PETTI:        Not heated?
9                DR. ZWEIBAUM:        That is right.
10                The movement of the fuel in the core is 11 largely decoupled from the heat transfer aspects 12 because the fuel moves at a very slow pace in the core 13 ---
14                (Simultaneous speaking.)
15                DR. CORRADINI:        So it's basically just a 16 density ---- it's just basically a buoyancy density?
17                MEMBER    PETTI:        Okay,      did  I  misread 18 something?      I  read    that    the      pebbles  are    really 19 cruising.
20                (Simultaneous speaking.)
21                MEMBER PETTI: Yes. We'll put that on the 22 list when we get into the closed session.
23                DR. ZWEIBAUM:        Sure.
24                MEMBER PETTI:        Maybe I misread it, but I 25 thought that the fluids were a lot more than, say, a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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43 1 gas reactor pebble bed.
2                  DR. ZWEIBAUM:          Yeah, we can talk about 3 that in the closed session.
4                  MEMBER PETTI:        Okay.
5                  MEMBER KIRCHNER:            But for the scaling 6 purposes, you're just assuming the pebbles are static?
7                  DR. ZWEIBAUM: As far as the heat transfer 8 separate effects tests, that's right.
9                  MEMBER REMPE:          So, what about the fact 10 that in the real reactor that there is nuclear heat 11 coming out of the pebbles, or decay heat, if you're 12 doing some sort of transient?
13                  How do you simulate that, because I didn't 14 see that in the scaling report.
15                  DR. ZWEIBAUM:        So that would be the heat 16 source that we would have to scale, whatever the heat 17 generation levels are.
18                  So, the level of either full power or 19 decay        heat  power    would      come      from our neutronic 20 simulations.        Is that --
21                  MEMBER REMPE: But you're looking at fluid 22 flow, and it seems like that would be an effect on the 23 fluid flow, and so you're separating that out?
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44 1 obviously, in our scale tests, but scaled from the 2 heat generation that would happen from nuclear fission 3 in the core.
4                MEMBER REMPE: So I guess I didn't see how 5 you're going to heat them in the scale tests, and so 6 when you get -- you can wait until the closed session, 7 but I did not see how you were going to introduce that 8 into the --
9                DR. ZWEIBAUM:        Yeah, we can talk --
10                MEMBER REMPE: Whatever you're simulating.
11                DR. ZWEIBAUM:        We can talk about it more 12 in the closed session, but one thing to note is that 13 this report is really about the methodology, and not 14 necessarily about the engineering that would allow us 15 to meet that methodology.
16                But, I'd be happy to talk about it a 17 little bit more in the closed session.
18                MEMBER PETTI:            Yeah, you see members 19 jumping to the details, right, because this is kind of 20 theoretical, and so.
21                DR. ZWEIBAUM:        Sure.      So, this is really 22 the meat of our validation testing program right now.
23                We are using those scaling methods to 24 support acceleration of our validation testing road 25 map.
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45 1                  And we talked about the combination of 2 separate effects tests and integral effects tests all 3 use        reduced  scale      in      terms      of  size,    power, 4 temperature,        surrogate          fluids,        and    surrogate 5 materials.
6                  Both are under development in our Rapid 7 Lab facility in Alameda that Dr. Blandford talked 8 about.
9            We already have a number of separate effects 10 tests that are up and running as of now.
11                  For illustration here, you have pictures 12 of a few of our fluid dynamics tests using room 13 temperature water and 40 percent geometric scale, as 14 well as heat transfer tests that use a surrogate heat 15 transfer        oil  to    72    degrees      Celsius    matches      the 16 properties of our FliBe coolant at 600 C, also at 17 reduced geometric scale.
18                  And coming up towards the end of this year 19 would be our first integral effects tests facility, 20 which would be a half height roughly facility scaled 21 to our primary heat transport system.
22                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:              I'm curious.      It's 23 relatively easy to heat up a rod because you can 24 connect from the top and the bottom.
25                  How do you heat up your balls?
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46 1                    DR. ZWEIBAUM:        I guess we can talk about 2 that in the closed session.
3                    (Simultaneous speaking.)
4                    MEMBER REMPE:          And keep them heated, is 5 the question too.
6                    DR. ZWEIBAUM:        Huh?
7                    MEMBER REMPE:        And keep them heated.          You 8 could start with them hot, but yeah.
9                    MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:            Okay, we'll talk in 10 the closed session.
11                    DR. ZWEIBAUM:        Yes.
12                    MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:              Obviously, you had 13 some patents in that?            You should.
14                    DR. ZWEIBAUM:        And so this combination of 15 the separate effects test and integral effects test is 16 really the basis for validation of our evaluation 17 models, which would lead us to the KP-1 demonstration 18 and reactor full scale FliBe coolant, and TRISO fuel 19 pebbles.
20                    Next, please.        So first, about IETs.
21                    At a high level, the scaling methodology 22 we use, this is the analysis for using the surrogate 23 fluid,        mainly  heat    transfer      oil,    for  the    KP-FHR 24 primary heat transport system.
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47 1 are illustrated in the topical report include steady-2 state normal operation, which is forced circulation 3 operation, as well as transients that involve the loss 4 of force flow in a transition to natural circulation.
5                This would include pump trips, losses of 6 heat sink, station blackouts, and so on.
7                The    methodology          in      the  report        is 8 illustrated using an idealized version of our primary 9 heat transport system and scaled IET.
10                You have this very simplified schematic 11 here that shows this configuration with the pebble bed 12 reactor core, primary salt pump, hot leg piping going 13 into an intermediate heat exchanger, then cold leg 14 returning to the core.
15                Although this is a simplified model that's 16 illustrated in the methodology, the methodology can be 17 extrapolated to a number of different branches in 18 several loops, as would be the case in the current KP-19 FHR design.
20                Next.
21                Also    in    the    report      is  our  scaling 22 methodology for a number of separate effects tests.
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48 1 covers        generic  fluid      dynamics        and  heat  transfer 2 phenomena, as well as some KP-FHR design specific 3 phenomena.
4                    And those six types of phenomena are 5 examples of what's covered in the report, namely 6 forced circulation fluid dynamics,                      convective heat 7 transfer,          conjugate      heat      transfer        with      solid 8 structures,        twisted      elliptical          tube  experiments, 9 pebble bed granular flow dynamics experiments, and 10 forced median impact bed heat transfer experiments 11 that are relevant to our core.
12                    MEMBER PETTI:        Can I ask a question?            You 13 know, there's lots of literature out there for packed 14 beds and correlations.
15                    I mean, do you think that they'll end up 16 working and you'll spend just a lot of time, you know, 17 providing some data to show that for your situation, 18 that        they'll    be    one    close      from    the  chemical 19 engineering industry?
20                    DR. ZWEIBAUM: So the existing experience 21 with those packed bed correlations don't directly 22 apply to the ranges we're operating at.
23                    Namely, the Prandtl number of our fluid is 24 much      higher    than    what's      being        reported    in      the 25 literature for both gas-cooled reactors, obviously, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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49 1 and also outside of the nuclear industry for other 2 experiments.
3                So this is the reason why we need to run 4 our own tests --
5                (Simultaneous speaking.)
6                MEMBER PETTI:          Okay, so it's for the 7 Prandtl number?
8                DR. ZWEIBAUM:        To get out of that.
9                MEMBER PETTI:        Great, thanks.
10                DR. CORRADINI:          So, neither your first 11 bullet in forced circulation fluid dynamics, nor your 12 fifth bullet on, I'll call it pebble bed movement, 13 have historical or past literature basis?
14                Do you guys have to do it from scratch?
15 That's what I was gathering from Dave's question that 16 you can rely on past --
17                (Simultaneous speaking.)
18                DR. ZWEIBAUM:        So yeah, a lot of this is 19 not breaking new ground.            Obviously, for circulation 20 fluid dynamics, it's a pretty well-known topic for 21 several centuries.
22                The idea was really to compile all of this 23 in our own methodology to make sure that the staff 24 agrees that this is indeed the right approach in our 25 case.
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50 1                  DR. CORRADINI:        All right, thank you.
2                  MEMBER RICCARDELLA: So, I assume that the 3 primary purpose of these tests and scaling is the 4 qualified computer codes that you're going to use to 5 analyze it, right?
6                  And then --
7                  DR. ZWEIBAUM: Yes, this is the purpose of 8 the EMDAP process.
9                  MEMBER RICCARDELLA:            And then if it works 10 on the test, then presumably it works when you apply 11 these codes to the reactor, right?
12                  DR. ZWEIBAUM:        That is right.
13                  MEMBER      MARCH-LEUBA:              And  have      you 14 considered the fact that we have so much margin on the 15 fuel      pellets  that      if    you    miss      your  heat      risk 16 coefficient by a factor of two, who cares?                    You just 17 raise the temperature of the fuel and keep cranking.
18                  DR. ZWEIBAUM:        That is very beneficial to 19 us, obviously, and you'll see in the --
20                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:                And you probably 21 would take advantage of that?
22                  DR. ZWEIBAUM:        Yes, we would be in the --
23                  (Simultaneous speaking.)
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51 1 you in it, but it is going to be a hard sell.
2                  Pressure drop, obviously you need to know, 3 did you want to have amount of circulation, but not 4 easy to measure.          The heat risk coefficient you can 5 have four or a factor of two and nothing happens.
6                  DR. ZWEIBAUM:        Okay.
7                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Just put it in there.
8 It's going to be a hard sell.
9                  DR. KRUIZENGA:        I'm Alan Kruizenga.            I'm 10 the director of salt chemistry at Kairos Power, and 11 I'm      the  primary    preparer      of    the  reactor  coolant 12 topical report, and then we'll just go over just a 13 couple of slides so you have a little bit of an idea 14 of what we're looking at, and what the purpose of --
15                  MEMBER      MARCH-LEUBA:            Alan,  is      that 16 microphone working?            Because you don't sound as good 17 as me.
18                  DR. KRUIZENGA: I mean you've got a really 19 nice voice.
20                  (Laughter.)
21                  DR. CORRADINI:        Move closer.
22                  DR. KRUIZENGA:        He sounds really good, so 23 I -- how about now, is that better?
24                  DR. CORRADINI:        That's much better.
25                  DR. KRUIZENGA:          Okay, great, excellent.
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52 1 All right, perfect.
2                  So, as has been said already this morning, 3 we're using FliBe as a coolant for our reactor.
4                  There's a few reasons, and they've been 5 covered a little bit already, but really it's the fact 6 that it's a coolant that helps provide enhanced safety 7 properties, it has a high boiling point, it has high 8 thermal        inertia,      minimal        short-term,    long-term 9 activation products in the salt itself.
10                  And it's been optimized over time through 11 use during the molten salt reactor experiment back in 12 Oak Ridge.
13                  The high density fluid has good heat 14 capacity, again with that thermal inertia, pace, the 15 viscosity is comparable to water in a factor of 5, and 16 it's stable under radiation at high temperatures.
17                  And    then      lastly,          from a    safety 18 perspective, it's a good solvent for fission products.
19 So that's one of the reasons it was viewed as favored.
20                  MEMBER BLEY:        How about worker safety?
21                  DR. KRUIZENGA:        That's a great question.
22                  MEMBER BLEY:        Thank you.
23                  DR. KRUIZENGA: I mean I think you're more 24 referring from a chemical perspective?
25                  MEMBER BLEY:        Yeah.
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53 1                DR. KRUIZENGA: So certainly, we're aware 2 of that.
3                That's      something          --    like,  I      have 4 personally, along with many others in the company, 5 have spent a lot of time trying to work with the right 6 partners to develop good procedures and practices that 7 are compliant, and keep our workers safe, so it's 8 extremely important.
9                DR. CORRADINI:            Alan,    where  is      the 10 industrial experience in the United States in terms of 11 using beryllium compound fluids?
12                Because that's I think what Dennis is 13 getting at.
14                MEMBER BLEY:        Yeah.
15                DR. SCHULTZ:          And      developing    safety 16 programs --
17                DR. CORRADINI:            And developing safety 18 programs.
19                DR. SCHULTZ:        Related to that.
20                DR. KRUIZENGA:          So, as far as chemical 21 processing -- so we could talk a little bit more in 22 the closed section, but I'll give you just kind of a 23 quick snippet.
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54 1 to get in a state that it can ultimately be made into 2 beryllium metal.
3                  So there is some precedent, at least in 4 the chemical manufacturing industry, that beryllium is 5 in a liquid state and has to be taken precautions 6 appropriately for that.
7                  I don't know if that's helpful, but there 8 is      some  precedence,      and    this      isn't at  a    high 9 temperature,      again,      which      is    different  for      our 10 application.
11                  MEMBER KIRCHNER:          This is in the category 12 that Jose was mentioning.              You know, full disclosure 13 would say up front that beryllium is a hazard.
14                  DR. KRUIZENGA:          Beryllium is a chemical 15 hazard.
16                  MEMBER KIRCHNER: Then you're going to have 17 to take counter measures or whatever to deal with it.
18                  DR. KRUIZENGA:        Yes.
19                  MEMBER KIRCHNER: Because the industry by 20 and large has shunned working with beryllium. I mean, 21 other than in a metal form.
22                  MEMBER BLEY:        Well, even in a metal form.
23 I mean --
24                  MEMBER KIRCHNER:          Even in a metal form.
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55 1 a lot, but there are a lot of --
2                  MEMBER KIRCHNER: I know one business that 3 used a lot of beryllium.
4                  MEMBER BLEY: Sick and dead people around, 5 in my experience.
6                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: And ordinarily it is 7 actually forbidden to even mention the name.
8                  MEMBER PETTI: Does the flowing activate?
9 I remember --
10                  DR. KRUIZENGA:          It does, but it's got a 11 quite short half-life. I think it's less than a minute 12 or so.
13                  MEMBER PETTI:        Yeah, so it's like sort of 14 N16 in a water reactor sort of, right?                    Okay. So --
15                  DR. CORRADINI:        What activates it?
16                  MEMBER PETTI:        Flowing 19 I think, right?
17                  DR. KRUIZENGA:            I think so.        I think 18 that's right.
19                  DR. CORRADINI:          And it's about a minute 20 and a half long?
21                  DR. KRUIZENGA:        Yeah, about a minute.
22                  MEMBER    RICCARDELLA:            Okay. Would      you 23 briefly        describe    the    process        how    it  achieves      a 24 negative temperature coefficient?
25                  DR. KRUIZENGA:            Yeah, so the density NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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56 1 decreases as it goes up in temperature.
2                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:            Yeah so, say again?
3                  DR. KRUIZENGA:          As      you  go    up      in 4 temperature,      the    change      in    density      reduces      the 5 moderation.
6                  MEMBER RICCARDELLA: And it is a moderator?
7 I thought the graphite was the moderator, no?
8                  DR. KRUIZENGA:          The      graphite    is    the 9 primary moderator.
10                  MEMBER KIRCHNER:            The graphite is the 11 primary moderator.
12                  DR. KRUIZENGA:        Beryllium does have some 13 moderation capability, though.
14                  (Simultaneous speaking.)
15                  MEMBER KIRCHNER:            It becomes a second 16 order effect on reactivity transients and such.
17                  MEMBER RICCARDELLA:            Okay.
18                  DR. CORRADINI:        Go ahead.
19                  MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: You can hear from the 20 questions that everybody's going to complain about 21 beryllium, so can you give us a short 30 second answer 22 unclassified why you chose beryllium?
23                  Is it for neutron efficiency, or is it for 24 chemical      viscosity,      transparency?            Is  there        a 25 particular reason that you didn't use regular salt?
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57 1                And just put it to rest so we keep asking 2 you --
3                DR. KRUIZENGA:          Yeah.      So I have more 4 information in the closed session, but --
5                MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:            Wait.
6                DR. KRUIZENGA:        Okay, great.
7                MEMBER BLEY:        Well, let me ask one other.
8                DR. KRUIZENGA:        Sure.
9                MEMBER BLEY:        I don't know the chemistry, 10 but if you get water near the fluoride salt, can you 11 get HF coming out?
12                DR. KRUIZENGA:          You can get some trace 13 amounts of HF.
14                MEMBER BLEY:        Only trace amounts?
15                DR. KRUIZENGA:              We  haven't      fully 16 quantified --
17                (Simultaneous speaking.)
18                MEMBER BLEY:        Now you keep the water away 19 from it?
20                DR. KRUIZENGA:        We do keep the water away 21 from it, and we're aware of it, and that's part of our 22 ongoing work.
23                MEMBER    BLEY:        Because      that's    pretty 24 dangerous stuff too.
25                MEMBER      MARCH-LEUBA:              What's      your NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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58 1 intermediate salt?
2                DR. KRUIZENGA:        It's a nitrate salt, it's 3 a solar salt.
4                (Simultaneous speaking.)
5                DR. KRUIZENGA:        No.
6                MEMBER REMPE: You almost look like you're 7 going to go to the next slide, and I know you didn't 8 get to go through your bullets because we interrupted 9 you, but before you leave this slide, I was interested 10 in what data support the fission product retention 11 claims, and how much it was.
12                And then I'm thinking back about with the 13 MHTGR and NPR days, and it's not just fission products 14 one might be wanting to be concerned about, but also 15 if you have say stainless steel somewhere in your 16 system, the chromium can migrate through it and attack 17 the silicon carbide and the TRISO particles.
18                Have you considered those effects in your 19 testing program?
20                DR. KRUIZENGA:            We      have, and    we've 21 considered it.      We're aware of it.
22                MEMBER REMPE:        Okay.
23                DR. KRUIZENGA:          So it's come up during 24 some of our like, internal PIRT processes.                So, it's 25 been identified, but we are aware of it.
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59 1                MEMBER REMPE:          Okay, so you'll need to 2 have something to add extra protection on that.
3                MEMBER PETTI:        I'd like to come back to 4 this in the closed session to talk about some numbers 5 and things.
6                MEMBER BLEY:        You just caught my ear with 7 something, your internal PIRT processes.          Do you have 8 an external PIRT process too?
9                Have you brought, you know, outside folks 10 in to help you --
11                DR. KRUIZENGA:        Well, we've --
12                MEMBER BLEY:        Think about key issues.
13                DR. KRUIZENGA:        So, can we defer that to 14 the closed session?
15                MEMBER BLEY:        Sure, absolutely.
16                DR. KRUIZENGA:          We can give a lot more.
17 Then we can give some more information about it.
18                So the purpose really of this coolant 19 report is to establish a common basis specifically for 20 the chemical specification we have for the fluid, and 21 then the thermophysical properties that we're going to 22 use as part of the safety analysis.
23                So, the scope again is the thermophysical 24 properties of the fluid, the chemical specification, 25 so that we're on a common basis for understanding as NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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60 1 we go through some of the future licensing work, what 2 the properties are.
3                  DR. CORRADINI:            And    as  well  as    the 4 allowable span that you can tolerate before things 5 become unacceptable?
6                  DR. KRUIZENGA:          Right.        Yeah, there are 7 bars, so --
8                  MEMBER BLEY:        All of you have emphasized 9 it earlier, and in your reports, you kind of treat the 10 salt as an extra barrier against fission product 11 release.
12                  Are there any nuclear chemical affects 13 that can change that ability to hang on to the fission 14 products?
15                  DR. KRUIZENGA:            I think this would be 16 maybe a good one to talk in the closed session, so.
17                  MEMBER BLEY:        Perfect.
18                  MEMBER PETTI:        So Alan, in terms of the 19 specification,        do    you    see    this      as  an  initial 20 specification, and that it might evolve over time?
21                  As you do some experiments, you might add 22 -- I mean, there were just some things that weren't in 23 there as limits that I could see, potentially in the 24 future        as you  do    testing      and      you  become    more 25 knowledgeable,          you      might        add      more    to      the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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61 1 specification?
2                  DR. KRUIZENGA:        I think that's our basis.
3 We just need a place to start, and I think Joy kind of 4 brought it up.
5                  We're learning new things, so we expect 6 that we'll manipulate as we have to.
7                  MEMBER PETTI:        Right.
8                  DR. KRUIZENGA:        That is it.
9                  PARTICIPANT: Never show a slide like that.
10                  (Laughter.)
11                  DR. CORRADINI:        Or you can just defer the 12 questions to the closed session.
13                  MEMBER BLEY: I guess it'll come up in the 14 fuel      qualification      topical,      but      you're using        a 15 different TRISO or some different properties in your 16 TRISO fuel than the stuff my colleague over here did 17 years of testing on.
18                  Will that be the time to talk about what 19 that matters to us, and to you?
20                  DR. KRUIZENGA:        Yes.
21                  MEMBER BLEY:        Okay.
22                  MEMBER PETTI:          Okay.        Well, I guess at 23 this point in the agenda, we're a little ahead of 24 schedule.
25                  DR. CORRADINI:        Weidong is checking --
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62 1                MEMBER PETTI:        Oh.      We're a few minutes 2 ahead of schedule, but it's time for public comments.
3 Do we have anybody in the audience to make a comment?
4                DR. CORRADINI:          Hold on.
5                MEMBER PETTI:          And I assume the phone 6 line's on?
7                DR. CORRADINI:          Weidong is checking out.
8                MEMBER PETTI: Okay, Weidong's checking 9 out.
10                DR. CORRADINI:          You may want to just see 11 if anybody's out there.
12                MEMBER PETTI:          Yes. Anybody on the open 13 line?
14                DR. CORRADINI:          We're right on time.
15                PARTICIPANT:        Yes, sir.
16                MEMBER PETTI:        Any questions?
17                PARTICIPANT:        Comments.
18                MEMBER PETTI:        Comments?      Sorry.
19                PARTICIPANT:        No questions at this time.
20 Thank you.
21                MEMBER PETTI:        Thank you.      We can take a 22 small break.      We'll be back here at 9:15.                  Okay?
23 Great.
24                PARTICIPANT:        No.
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63 1 don't speak Greek fluently, what does Kairos mean?                    I 2 do because I checked it out.
3                PARTICIPANT:        Dave, you don't have to go 4 to 9:15, you can accelerate it.
5                MEMBER PETTI:        Oh okay.      We'll just take 6 five minutes, and then we'll go into closed session.
7                DR. BLANDFORD:          Do you want me to answer 8 his --
9                MEMBER PETTI:          Yes, please go ahead and 10 answer.
11                DR. BLANDFORD:            Sure, so Kairos is an 12 Ancient Greek term for the right or opportune moment, 13 and so it ties into our business case about where we 14 see the market going, so.
15                I've heard it can be pronounced Kairos, 16 and true Greeks will say it that way, so.
17                DR. CORRADINI:          Luckily you have no true 18 Greeks on the group.
19                DR. BLANDFORD:          Not right now, no.
20                PARTICIPANT:        You have one at home.
21                DR. BLANDFORD:          Yeah.
22                (Off-microphone comments.)
23                MEMBER PETTI:        Yeah, a five minute break.
24                (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 25 off the record at 8:58 a.m.)
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OVERVIEW OF KAIROS POWER, SCALING METHODOLOGY AND REACTOR COOLANT TOPICAL REPORTS ACRS SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING, FEBRUARY 21, 2020 Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.
No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.
 
Kairos Powers mission is to enable the worlds transition to clean energy, with the ultimate goal of dramatically improving peoples quality of life while protecting the environment.
Confidential and Proprietary No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC
 
Outline
* Overview of Kairos Power and KP-FHR Design and Development
* Scaling Methodology Topical Report
* Reactor Coolant Topical Report 3
Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.
No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.
3
 
Fluoride Salt-Cooled High-Temperature Reactor (FHR)
Technology Basis Coated Particle Fuel                  Liquid Fluoride Salt Coolant TRISO                              Flibe (2LiF-BeF2)
Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.
No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.
4
 
Overview of Kairos Power
* Privately funded nuclear energy engineering and design company focused on the commercialization of the fluoride salt-cooled high temperature reactor (FHR)
Founded in 2016 Based in San Francisco Bay Area Builds on UC Berkeley Concept Development and R&D                      Kairos Power Headquarters Alameda, CA
                    ~120 full-time employees (and growing) selected from diverse industries
* Development schedule driven by US demonstration by 2030 (or earlier) and rapid deployment ramp in 2030s
* Leverages technology from past advanced reactor designs, coupled together to provide a competitive design Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.
No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.
5
 
Design and Development Overview Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.
No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.
6
 
KP-FHR Features: Safe, Compact, Economical
* KP-FHR Inherent Safety and Economic Potential are Uniquely Aligned to Replace U.S. Natural Gas Capacity
* Robust Inherent Safety Large fuel temperature margins Fission products retained by fuel and primary coolant Low-pressure system Passive decay heat removal
* Lower Capital Costs Reduced reliance on high-cost, nuclear-grade components and          KP-1    HTR-PM          ARC-100        NuScale structures through KP-FHR intrinsic safety and plant architecture    Flibe  Helium          Sodium          Water 320 MWth 250 MWth        260 MWth        200 MWth Leverage conventional materials, existing industrial equipment, 140 Mwe  100 MWe          100 MWe          60 MWe and conventional fabrication and construction methods
* Reactor vessels drawn to approximate scale.
* Improved Operating Economics High efficiency Flexible deployment of low-cost nuclear heat                                                        7 Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.
No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.
7
 
Baseline Licensing Strategy for KP-1 Pre-Application Phase Preliminary Safety                  Construction Permit Operating License Information                          Application      Application Document                          (10 CFR 50)        (10 CFR 50)
Topical Reports Topical (10Reports CFR 50)
Topical (10Reports CFR 50)
(10 CFR 50)
Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.
No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.
8
 
Licensing Overview
* Kairos Power intends to leverage the intrinsic safety characteristics of the KP-FHR fuel and coolant that provides uniquely large safety margins under accident conditions to achieve three high level goals:
Goal 1: Achieve Early Acceptance from NRC of Fundamental KP-FHR Safety Case Goal 2: Minimize Unique Safety-Related Design Requirements for the KP-FHR Goal 3: Retain Flexibility for Design Modifications for Future KP-FHR Iterations Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.
No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.
9
 
Testing and Development Overview Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.
No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.
10
 
Kairos Power Nuclear Development Paradigm Shift Conventional Nuclear Development Cycle PLAN                              DESIGN                  BUILD                  TEST TEST EXPERIENCE Kairos Power Accelerated Test Cycles for Innovation and Optimization PLAN        DESIGN          BUILD          TEST              PLAN        DESIGN  BUILD    TEST            PLAN DESIGN  BUILD TEST Test                                            Test Experience                                      Experience TEST EXPERIENCE Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.
No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.
11            11
 
Kairos Power Testing Program - Facilities Rapid Technology Demonstration Requires Non-Nuclear Development and Qualification Facilities R                RAPID LAB Rapid Analysis, Prototyping, and Iterative Design Lab (R-LAB)
S                SALT LAB Salt Handling and Loop Testing Lab (S-LAB)
T          TESTING FACILITY Component Testing Facility (T-FACILITY)
U        USER FACILITY            User Operations & Maintenance Training Facility (U-FACILITY)
Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.
No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.
12
 
Scaling Methodology Topical Report Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.
No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.
13
 
Purpose of the Scaling Methodology Topical Report
* The methodology is used to scale integral effects tests (IETs) and separate effects tests (SETs) supporting the KP-FHR evaluation model assessment base
* Surrogate fluids enable direct and comprehensive, local measurements of the phenomena under investigation due to higher compatibility of high-accuracy instrumentation (e.g., temperature and flow velocity)
* Kairos Power is requesting NRC review and approval to:
Use the scaling methodology with surrogate fluids described in the report (heat transfer oil and water) for testing included in the assessment base of evaluation models supporting KP-FHR safety analysis Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.
No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.
14        14
 
Scope of the Scaling Methodology Topical Report
* Based on the Hierarchical Two-Tiered Scaling (H2TS) methodology Generic scaling method previously developed for and approved by the NRC Selected by Kairos Power for scaling of thermal fluids IETs and SETs Includes quantification of distortions
* Addresses scaling of primary heat transport system thermal fluids IETs for the KP-FHR at normal operation conditions (forced flow) and transients involving natural circulation Use of specific class of heat transfer oil as acceptable surrogate fluid for IETs
* Addressed scaling of specific phenomena- and component-level SETs Use of specific class of heat transfer oil or water as acceptable surrogate fluids for SETs Source: U.S. NRC (2005). Transient and Accident Analysis Methods. Regulatory Guide 1.203.
Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.
No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.
15
 
Scaling Methods Support Acceleration of Kairos Powers Validation Testing Roadmap KP-SETs R-Lab 2020 KP-IETs                                  KP-1 R-Lab  Validation of KP-FHR Evaluation Models          Demonstration 2020 Reactor 1/2 Height Fluid dynamics tests                    Heat transfer tests Room-temperature water                    Heat transfer oil (72°C) 40% geometric scale                  Reduced geometric scale Reduced scale (size, power, temperature)                                Full scale Surrogate fluids                              Flibe coolant (550-650°C)
Surrogate materials                                  TRISO fuel pebbles Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.
No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.
16
 
IET Scaling Methodology
* Scaling analysis for a surrogate fluid (heat transfer oil) IET of the KP-FHR primary heat transport system
* Classes of licensing basis events illustrated in the topical report:
Steady-state, normal forced-circulation operations Transients involving loss of forced flow and transition to natural circulation (e.g., pump trip, loss of heat sink)
* Illustrated using an idealized model of the KP-FHR primary heat transport system and scaled IET:
Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.
No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.
17        17
 
SET Scaling Methodology
* SETs are used to develop closure models and correlations for module/component-level phenomena
* Topical report covers generic fluid dynamics and heat transfer phenomena, and KP-FHR design specific phenomena:
Forced circulation fluid dynamics Convective heat transfer Conjugate heat transfer with solid structures Twisted elliptical tube experiments Pebble bed granular flow dynamics experiments Porous media and packed bed heat transfer experiments Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.
No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.
18    18
 
Reactor Coolant Topical Report Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.
No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.
19
 
KP-FHR uses Flibe (2LiF:BeF2) as a coolant
* Flibe coolant provides enhanced safety features relative to LWR designs.
Large thermal inertia minimizes rapid temperature transients Negative temperature coefficient of reactivity supports reactivity control Minimal short-term and long-term activation
* Flibe is an optimization for nuclear reactor operation High density and heat capacity (i.e. thermal inertia)
Viscosity comparable to water Stable under radiation and at high temperatures
* Flibe supports safety basis as a barrier to fission product release.
LiF-BeF2 mixture (Flibe)
Absorbs fission products that escape the TRISO protective layer, providing additional functional containment protection.
Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.
No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.
20
 
Reactor Coolant Topical Report
 
==Purpose:==
* Establish a common basis for safety related analysis between the NRC and Kairos Power
* Kairos Power requested NRC review and approval of Flibe specifications and thermophysical properties.
Scope and Use:
* Thermophysical properties of Flibe
* Chemical Specification used in KP-FHR Methods and assumptions for setting specification limits
* Specifications and properties for future safety analyses in license applications.
Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.
No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.
21
 
Questions Confidential and Proprietary, Part 810 Export-Controlled Information No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC 22}}

Revision as of 22:53, 13 April 2020

Transcript of Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards Kairos Power Licensing Subcommittee Meeting - February 21, 2020 (Open), Pages 1-63
ML20091M844
Person / Time
Issue date: 02/21/2020
From: Weidong Wang
Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards
To:
Wang, W, ACRS
References
NRC-0804
Download: ML20091M844 (87)
v • d • e


Text

Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION

Title:

Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards Kairos Power Licensing Subcommittee Open Session Docket Number: (n/a)

Location: Rockville, Maryland Date: Friday, February 21, 2020 Work Order No.: NRC-0804 Pages 1-63 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.

Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.

Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433

1 1

2 3

4 DISCLAIMER 5

6 7 UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSIONS 8 ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 9

10 11 The contents of this transcript of the 12 proceeding of the United States Nuclear Regulatory 13 Commission Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards, 14 as reported herein, is a record of the discussions 15 recorded at the meeting.

16 17 This transcript has not been reviewed, 18 corrected, and edited, and it may contain 19 inaccuracies.

20 21 22 23 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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1 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3 + + + + +

4 ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 5 (ACRS) 6 + + + + +

7 KAIROS POWER LICENSING SUBCOMMITTEE 8 + + + + +

9 FRIDAY 10 FEBRUARY 21, 2020 11 + + + + +

12 ROCKVILLE, MARYLAND 13 + + + + +

14 The Subcommittee met at the Nuclear 15 Regulatory Commission, Two White Flint North, Room 16 T2D10, 11545 Rockville Pike, at 8:30 a.m., David 17 Petti, Chair, presiding.

18 19 COMMITTEE MEMBERS:

20 DAVID PETTI, Chair 21 RONALD G. BALLINGER, Member 22 DENNIS BLEY, Member 23 CHARLES H. BROWN, JR., Member 24 VESNA B. DIMITRIJEVIC, Member 25 WALTER L. KIRCHNER, Member NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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2 1 JOSE MARCH-LEUBA, Member 2 JOY L. REMPE, Member 3 PETER RICCARDELLA, Member 4 MATTHEW W. SUNSERI, Member 5 ACRS CONSULTANTS:

6 MICHAEL L. CORRADINI 7 STEPHEN SCHULTZ 8 DESIGNATED FEDERAL OFFICIAL:

9 WEIDONG WANG 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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3 1 C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 2 ACRS Chairman Introductory Remarks . . . . . . . 4 3 NRC Staff Introductory Remarks . . . . . . . . . 6 4 Kairos Power Introductory Remarks . . . . . . . . 13 5 Overview of Kairos Power FHR and Program 6 Development . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 7 Overview of Scaling Methodology Topical 8 Report (KP-TR-006) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40 9 Overview of Reactor Coolant Topical Report 10 (KP-TR-005) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 53 11 Public Comments . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 64 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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4 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 (8:00 a.m.)

3 MEMBER PETTI: This is a meeting of the 4 Kairos Power Licensing Subcommittee of the Advisory 5 Committee on Reactor Safeguards.

6 I'm David Petti, chairman of today's 7 subcommittee meeting.

8 ACRS members in attendance are Vesna 9 Dimitrijevic, Walt Kirchner, Ron Ballinger, Pete 10 Riccardella, Matt Sunseri, Joy Rempe, Jose March-11 Leuba, and we expect Dennis and Charlie Brown later.

12 We have consultants, Mike Corradini and 13 Steve Schultz, and Weidong Wang of the ACRS staff as 14 the designated federal official for this meeting.

15 During today's meeting, the subcommittee 16 will receive a presentation on the design overview of 17 the Kairos Power fluoride salt-cooled high temperature 18 reactor, a new generation for a nuclear reactor, and 19 review two Kairos topical reports on the scaling 20 methodology for the Kairos Power Testing Program, and 21 the reactor coolant for the Kairos power reactor.

22 The subcommittee will have presentations 23 by and hold discussions with the staff, the Kairos 24 power representatives, and other interested persons.

25 The rules for participation in all ACRS NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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5 1 meetings, including today's, were announced in the 2 Federal Register on June 13, 2019.

3 The ACRS section of the U.S. NRC public 4 website provides our charter, our bylaws, agendas, 5 letter reports, and full transcripts of all full and 6 subcommittee meetings, including the slides that will 7 be presented today.

8 The meeting notice and agenda for this 9 meeting were posted there. We've received no written 10 statements or request to make an oral statement from 11 the public.

12 The first part of today's meeting is open 13 to public attendance.

14 The second part of the meeting will be 15 closed in order to discuss information that's 16 proprietary to the licensee and its contractors, 17 pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 552BC4.

18 Attendance at these portions of the 19 meeting that deal with such information will be 20 limited to the NRC staff, and those individuals and 21 organizations who have entered into an appropriate 22 confidentiality agreement with them.

23 Consequently, we will need to confirm that 24 we have only eligible observers and participants in 25 the room for the closed portions of the meeting.

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6 1 The subcommittee will gather information, 2 analyze the relevant issues and facts, and formulate 3 proposed positions and actions as appropriate by 4 deliberation by the full committee.

5 The rules for participation in today's 6 meeting have been announced in the Federal Register.

7 There's a transcript of the meeting being kept, and 8 again, will be made available.

9 Therefore, we request that participants in 10 the meeting use the microphones located throughout the 11 meeting room when speaking.

12 Press on it until you get the green button 13 light to go on so that the transcribe can hear.

14 Participants should first identify 15 themselves and speak with sufficient clarity and 16 volume so that they may be heard.

17 We will now proceed with the meeting, and 18 I'd like to start by calling on the NRR staff to 19 introduce our guests.

20 DR. CORRADINI: Brian, do you want to?

21 MR. SMITH: Good morning, my name is Brian 22 Smith, I'm the deputy director of the Division of 23 Advanced Reactors and Non-Power Production and 24 Utilization Facilities. It's a long title.

25 We cover a lot. Not only advanced NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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7 1 reactors, but also for the research reactors, as well 2 as the moly-99 production facilities, so a broad 3 scope.

4 My staff and I are very pleased to be here 5 today to meet with you to talk about our review of 6 these two topical reports. We look forward to 7 whatever questions you may have, and any feedback you 8 have on our review.

9 We've been interacting with you over the 10 last several years on advanced online water reactor 11 issues, primarily guidance development, so we see this 12 meeting as a milestone of sorts. No longer talking 13 about guidance, but talking about specific topical 14 reports submitted by a reactor developer.

15 So milestones, kind of big day. I want to 16 thank Kairos in advance for the overview they're going 17 to do of their design.

18 I looked through the slides. It looks 19 like it'll be very beneficial to the ACRS, and the 20 staff, as well.

21 We want to thank the ACRS for assigning 22 Dr. Petti as the lead for this Kairos review. We look 23 forward to interacting with him and the rest of the 24 ACRS on future reviews of topical reports submitted by 25 Kairos, as well as any future applications that may NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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8 1 reference the Kairos design.

2 In performing these reviews, we used staff 3 from both NRR, as well as the Office of Research, and 4 I want to thank them for their efforts in developing 5 what I thought were high quality documents.

6 Finally, I want to note that the working 7 relationship between the staff and Kairos was great, 8 and that we were able to get through these reviews 9 without having to issue any requests for additional 10 information. So that's it for me. Thank you.

11 DR. CORRADINI: So can I --

12 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Yeah.

13 DR. CORRADINI: I'm sorry.

14 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Brian, I just want to 15 ask a question. As you approached this review with 16 Kairos or other potential applicants, are you now 17 using as a point of reference the advanced reactor 18 design criteria?

19 MR. SMITH: Yes.

20 MEMBER KIRCHNER: That's kind of your 21 substitute for the GDCs, in terms of having some 22 reference point to look at different aspects of the 23 design?

24 MR. SMITH: Yes. We developed the ---

25 obviously that document. I think we coordinated with NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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9 1 you guys on that. Recognizing that a lot of the GDC 2 may not apply to some of these new designs.

3 In fact, Kairos has submitted a topical 4 report to us that describes their proposed principle 5 design criteria.

6 DR. CORRADINI: Within that context?

7 MR. SMITH: Yes sir.

8 DR. CORRADINI: So, does that also imply 9 that the application will use the Licensing 10 Modernization Program -- I don't know the right name 11 for this thing, so I'm going to call it the short 12 name, the LMP, in terms of the process?

13 MR. SMITH: Yes, there's actually another 14 topical report that we have in house from Kairos that 15 lays out their approach for utilizing the LMP.

16 MEMBER BLEY: Did I hear you right? You 17 expect to not have a request for information?

18 MR. SMITH: For these two topical reports 19 that we reviewed --

20 MEMBER BLEY: You had none?

21 MR. SMITH: We did not issue any.

22 MEMBER BLEY: What led to that?

23 MR. SMITH: The interactions that we had 24 with their staff directly.

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10 1 essentially?

2 MR. SMITH: Yes, we did.

3 DR. CORRADINI: We had a couple other 4 meetings earlier this week, emphasizing that it's good 5 the staff has informal discussions ahead of time.

6 Is this part of the reason that you 7 eliminated the need for RAIs, that you guys had enough 8 up-front discussions, in terms of --

9 MR. SMITH: Yes.

10 DR. CORRADINI: Okay.

11 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: And that's a really 12 good thing.

13 I mean, I've always been pushing for 14 audits as opposed to RAIs, where you're having 15 informal communications, and then you eventually 16 document it somewhere.

17 A lesson learned from all the reactor 18 we're reviewing now, and since you're in the process, 19 that particularly reactor has then the SER, a lot of 20 areas where all the or the existing regulations don't 21 apply to me because all the safety features I have 22 that make my reactor more safe, which is great.

23 But they tend to forget what are the 24 special characteristics of my reactor that make it 25 less safe?

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11 1 And they don't really focus on that, and 2 they don't have a table on -- at least it says none.

3 They really didn't focus on the special 4 characteristics of the reactor.

5 And this is something I'm just giving you 6 notice, like are you start sending description or 7 anything, I want to be looking for what's missing, and 8 I'm hoping that you have, too. Okay?

9 MR. SMITH: Okay.

10 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Because I mean, 11 honestly, if you look at it from that lens, you will 12 see a lot of that doesn't apply to me, that doesn't 13 apply to me, that doesn't apply to me, and nowhere 14 they say ah, but this should apply to me and you never 15 thought of it.

16 MR. SMITH: Right. For these new advanced 17 non-light water reactor designs --

18 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: It clearly --

19 MR. SMITH: There's a lot of requirements 20 in Part 50 that are specific to light water reactor 21 designs, so there will be a good number of exemptions, 22 we expect, from if not, probably all of that.

23 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: But I would expect 24 that just one or two requests to add requirements 25 because of the special characteristics of my reactor, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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12 1 right?

2 MR. SMITH: Sure.

3 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: So at least a good 4 condition of why there wasn't any.

5 DR. CORRADINI: Can I just follow up? You 6 said something that maybe I should have assumed. Is 7 the applicant in a process of defining they're going 8 with a Part 50 versus a Part 52?

9 MR. HASTINGS: Yes, and we're going to 10 talk about that.

11 DR. CORRADINI: Is this an appropriate --

12 later today?

13 MR. HASTINGS: Okay, fine.

14 MEMBER PETTI: All right. So, just one 15 more thing before we get started.

16 Because you guys are trying to catch a 17 flight later today -- many of you -- we were thinking 18 of making lunch just 30 minutes.

19 Go downstairs, you can bring something 20 back and eat here, but to try to compress that time to 21 make sure you guys have a margin to catch your 22 airplane. Okay.

23 DR. CORRADINI: All right. Thank you.

24 MEMBER PETTI: Yep, no problem.

25 DR. CORRADINI: Go ahead.

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13 1 MR. HASTINGS: Good morning. I'm Peter 2 Hastings, I'm the vice president of Regulatory Affairs 3 and Quality for Kairos Power.

4 On behalf of our entire team, thanks to 5 the subcommittee for the invitation to introduce 6 Kairos, our plans for developing, deploying the 7 fluoride salt-cooled high temperature reactor.

8 You'll see it referred to in these 9 presentations as the KP-FHR. And our first two 10 topical reports that are before you for review.

11 Joining me today are our chief technology 12 officer, Ed Blandford, our chief nuclear officer, Per 13 Peterson.

14 They're cofounders of Kairos Power, along with 15 our CEO, Mike Laufer, who was unable to join us this 16 morning.

17 Also here are Darrell Gardner, our senior 18 director of licensing, Alan Kruizenga, director of 19 salt chemistry, and Nico Zweibaum, senior manager of 20 the engineering testing, all of whom will be 21 presenting later today.

22 And we're also joined by Drew Peebles, our 23 manager of safety integration, and senior licensing 24 engineers, John Price and Margaret Ellenson.

25 Next slide.

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14 1 Kairos Power is a mission-driven company, 2 and we begin every substantive interaction that we 3 have with a reiteration of that mission, which is to 4 enable the world's transition to clean energy, with 5 the ultimate goal of dramatically improving people's 6 quality of life while protecting the environment.

7 This is very important to us.

8 To put this meeting into context of that 9 mission, NRC approval of our design is a key component 10 of meeting the mission, and the ACRS participation in 11 that process is obviously an important aspect of the 12 approval.

13 Next slide.

14 This morning's public session will consist 15 of a relatively brief overview of our design and 16 development efforts, an overview of our two topical 17 reports, scale and methodology, and reactor coolant, 18 salt.

19 This portion is scheduled for about an 20 hour2.314815e-4 days <br />0.00556 hours <br />3.306878e-5 weeks <br />7.61e-6 months <br />.

21 We may try to accelerate that in the 22 interest of getting to the more meaty parts of the 23 presentation.

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15 1 topics.

2 Next slide. Our design is a hybrid that 3 borrows attributes from other designs.

4 We use remarkably robust coated particle 5 TRISO fuel -- it's historically used in gas reactors 6 -- demonstrated to withstand extreme temperatures that 7 are well beyond the threshold of current nuclear 8 fuels.

9 Unlike gas reactors, we use molten salt 10 coolant with a very high potential for absorbing and 11 retaining radionuclides.

12 Our coolant is also chemically inert and 13 not reactive with water or air.

14 We combine these attributes with a low 15 pressure primary system into a design with substantial 16 safety margins, which enables us to think differently 17 about the size of our safety footprint.

18 Because cost of new nuclear builds is one 19 of the primary barriers to deployment, the small 20 safety footprint supports aggressive cost targets that 21 allows us to think seriously about competing with 22 natural gas, which is our primary initial market in 23 the United States.

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16 1 for the review of the topical reports.

2 The design is currently in the conceptual 3 phase, and so a lot will change over the course of the 4 next several months, but this is sort of a snapshot in 5 time of where we are.

6 Next slide.

7 Kairos Power is a privately funded company 8 focused on the commercialization of the FHR.

9 We were founded in 2016, emerging from a 10 UC Berkeley concept that was part of a DOE sponsored 11 integrative research project.

12 We're based in the San Francisco Bay Area, 13 and have doubled our staff in the past couple of years 14 to about 120 full-time staff currently.

15 As I mentioned, our primary market is U.S.

16 electricity, with an expectation to deploy broadly in 17 the 2030s, or sooner.

18 We're pursuing our mission by way of a 19 determined and intentional approach to designing a 20 reactor with a combination of remarkable safety 21 margins and economic performance that enables direct 22 competition with natural gas.

23 Next slide.

24 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Well, you mentioned 25 that -- you said U.S. energy. Have you been affected NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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17 1 at all by tariffs and export control? Do you have any 2 partners outside the U.S.?

3 MR. HASTINGS: We're not affected by that 4 at this time.

5 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Okay.

6 MR. HASTINGS: We'll turn now to a very 7 high-level overview of the design and development of 8 the KP-FHR.

9 Next slide.

10 As I mentioned earlier, our primary 11 initial target is competition with natural gas.

12 Competing with gas requires that we think 13 differently, and cost of the plant is an important 14 aspect of our deployment plan.

15 We expect to take advantage of the FHR's 16 robust inherent safety resulting from large 17 temperature margins in the fuel, the large retention 18 capacity of FliBe coolant for fission products, the 19 lack of a high pressure primary system, and passive 20 decay heat removal, which eliminates the need for 21 safety-related power.

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18 1 nuclear-grade versions.

2 Next slide.

3 Our baseline licensing strategy for our 4 first deployment includes substantial pre-application 5 engagement, which Brian mentioned we've been very 6 active with the NRC staff in the last little over a 7 year.

8 Followed by a two-step Part 50 9 construction permit and operating license.

10 In pre-application space, we've been 11 highly engaged with the staff with submittal of 12 several topical reports, the first two of which are 13 before you today, and the balance of which are all 14 about questions you asked.

15 Our principle design criteria, a 16 regulatory gap analysis, and so forth.

17 During the pre-application phase, we also 18 plan to submit a preliminary safety information 19 document, or PSID, which is a platform that's been 20 used a handful of times in the past for substantive 21 non-topical pre-app review.

22 The PSID will look somewhat like an early 23 application, and will result in a preliminary non-24 binding review by the staff in a preliminary safety 25 evaluation.

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19 1 This vehicle's intended to provide early 2 feedback on key technical issues, not dissimilar from 3 the Canadian Vendor Design Review, but with additional 4 flexibility in terms of content.

5 DR. CORRADINI: Has --

6 MR. HASTINGS: Mm-hmm?

7 DR. CORRADINI: Not to slow you down much.

8 What's an example most recently the NRC has had this, 9 and has exercised this so they're aware of how to 10 respond?

11 MR. HASTINGS: It has been some time. There was 12 one for the MHTGR, there was one for PRISM, and there 13 was a third one that I always forget.

14 DR. CORRADINI: So we're talking the '80s?

15 MR. HASTINGS: Yeah.

16 PARTICIPANT: Eighties, yes.

17 DR. CORRADINI: Okay, well the only reason 18 I ask is personally, this is a very logical approach, 19 but I'm just making sure the staff is aware and ready 20 for your first blue box.

21 MR. HASTINGS: They are. We've discussed 22 it.

23 You may recall a couple of years ago, 24 there was a lot of discussion about the development of 25 a VDR-type process by the staff.

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20 1 (Simultaneous speaking.)

2 DR. CORRADINI: I remember you were here 3 talking about it.

4 MR. HASTINGS: And the staff were off to 5 develop such a program, and we sort of collectively 6 all came to the conclusion at about the same time that 7 if we use the PSID format, it really provided 8 everything we needed with actually more flexibility 9 than the VDR process because it has a very fixed 10 format around 19 topics.

11 The PSID can sort of be whatever you want 12 it to be.

13 DR. CORRADINI: Okay.

14 MR. HASTINGS: And so, we're working with 15 the staff now to narrow down what the topics are going 16 to be --

17 DR. CORRADINI: Within it?

18 MR. HASTINGS: Within the PSID.

19 MEMBER BLEY: Okay. And you said it's a 20 non-binding document?

21 MR. HASTINGS: Correct. So --

22 MEMBER BLEY: But it means you get some 23 advanced review, but if what comes out next isn't the 24 same, you might be starting over?

25 MR. HASTINGS: Exactly.

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21 1 MEMBER BLEY: Okay.

2 DR. CORRADINI: Yeah, but to follow up 3 Dennis' question, I assume the whole purpose of this 4 is to identify things that are issues early and --

5 MR. HASTINGS: To address them. It's all 6 about de-risking the programmatic portion of the 7 process.

8 MEMBER REMPE: Do you have a schedule in 9 mind of how long you'll take for the pre-application 10 phase versus the construction permit application?

11 MR. HASTINGS: We do. That schedule is a 12 work in progress.

13 Our current plan is for a PSID early 2021, 14 with a CPA a couple of years after that. Those 15 numbers are moving around a bit, frankly.

16 MEMBER REMPE: Thanks.

17 DR. CORRADINI: Okay. Thank you.

18 MEMBER BROWN: Non-binding doesn't 19 necessarily mean you all might make changes, but NRC, 20 even though they provide feedback, they could change 21 their minds --

22 MR. HASTINGS: It's --

23 MEMBER BROWN: Based on a subsequent 24 thing, that oh, we've thought about this some more.

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22 1 comes to non-binding? I just wanted to make sure I 2 understood that.

3 MR. HASTINGS: Right. Yeah, that's 4 correct.

5 MEMBER BROWN: Since I haven't seen one of 6 these.

7 MR. HASTINGS: Yeah. And we understand 8 that risk, but it is all about de-risking the program.

9 MEMBER BROWN: No, no objection to the ---

10 (Simultaneous speaking.)

11 MR. HASTINGS: So the more we can get, the 12 better, obviously then.

13 MEMBER BROWN: Okay, thank you.

14 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Could I ask a question 15 of the staff just to -- a little quick digression.

16 What would you do if you get a PSID?

17 Would you do what was done in the '80s and 18 do like a preliminary SER kind of document? And then 19 how would you review that?

20 MEMBER BLEY: I seem to remember they did 21 a new reg as that part was done.

22 (Simultaneous speaking.)

23 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Yeah, but I was --

24 MR. MAGRUDER: Right, yeah. This is Stu 25 Magruder, I'm the lead project manager in NRR for the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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23 1 project.

2 And what we're planning to do is similar 3 to what we did for PRISM and MHTGR is to write what we 4 call a draft or preliminary safety evaluation report.

5 It would be published.

6 We would hope to brief you and get a 7 letter from the ACRS on that before we issued it, but 8 as Dr. Brian said, this would be all based on 9 preliminary information.

10 It's not a final answer, but it would 11 serve to kind of identify if there are any 12 showstoppers or significant issues that Kairos would 13 need to pursue in different areas.

14 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: But the topical 15 reports each will have a safety evaluation report with 16 it, and those are binding, right?

17 Once you issue the SER, they can use it.

18 MR. MAGRUDER: Yes. We'll talk about that 19 obviously later today, but you're absolutely right.

20 There's more regulatory certainty with topical report 21 SERs and --

22 (Simultaneous speaking.)

23 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: It has more --

24 MR. MAGRUDER: So this is all part of 25 their plan.

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24 1 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: It has more value in 2 a sense. I mean, it's final.

3 MR. MAGRUDER: Yes.

4 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: And once the position 5 --

6 (Simultaneous speaking.)

7 MR. MAGRUDER: Although, there are, of 8 course, as you'll see, there are limitations and 9 conditions in our SERs --

10 (Simultaneous speaking.)

11 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Which are actually --

12 - are also final. Right?

13 (Simultaneous speaking.)

14 MEMBER BROWN: How does that affect the 15 non-binding nature of the PSID if there's topical 16 reports that have a formal locked-in SER?

17 DR. CORRADINI: I guess it would be 18 similar to other examples, which is they've committed 19 to doing it a certain way within the limitation and 20 conditions, and that's holes, however the design moves 21 around.

22 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Unless they want to 23 change --

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25 1 non-binding if you have a topical report SER.

2 MR. HASTINGS: Right, so it's a continuum, 3 right? From a PSID to a topical to another 4 application.

5 (Simultaneous speaking.)

6 MEMBER BROWN: That's fine, I just wanted 7 to --- it's another thing that got thrown into the 8 hopper.

9 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: They always have the 10 possibility of issuing Revision 1 of the topical 11 report.

12 MEMBER BROWN: Yeah, I got it.

13 MEMBER BLEY: Or issue a technical report 14 that adapts that one --

15 DR. SCHULTZ: And the limitations and 16 conditions will be very important for both parties.

17 MR. HASTINGS: All true. And if there's 18 a topic that rises to the level of a topical report in 19 terms of maturity and readiness to receive a formal 20 review, you wouldn't see much discussion of that in 21 the PSID, other than pointing to it.

22 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Given the fact that 23 this is new technology for some of us, I mean, we are 24 too young to remember molten salt reactors --

25 MR. HASTINGS: Speak for yourself.

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26 1 PARTICIPANT: No, we're not.

2 MEMBER BLEY: We have a couple people of 3 that sort.

4 MR. HASTINGS: Speak for yourself.

5 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Yeah, well I was 6 making a joke.

7 The methodology of topical reports, how 8 you analyze it and what correlations, you use and 9 everything. I assume you're waiting for the results 10 from the experiments to finalize those. Is that 11 correct, or are you working already on those?

12 MR. HASTINGS: Both. So many of our 13 topicals are in two phases where the initial topical 14 is methodological or phenomenological, and the 15 revision later would be with supporting qualified 16 data.

17 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: So you're moving 18 ahead and doing Part A, and then just leaving the 19 appendices to be done?

20 MR. HASTINGS: In many cases, that's 21 correct.

22 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: That's good, because 23 for other reactors, which shall not be named, we're 24 reviewing methodology now after this here has been 25 issued. So, that's not desirable. You're doing much NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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27 1 better. Thank you.

2 MR. MAGRUDER: Let me just add one more 3 thing. Brian reminded me that I should point out that 4 with regard to issue finality or kind of staff's 5 conclusions, this is different from Part 52, where you 6 have a design certification document and the staff is 7 actually bound by what we write in our SE for that.

8 This is under Part 50 space, there's no issue finality 9 for these types of issues.

10 I mean, obviously when we issue an 11 operating license eventually, there will be, but up to 12 that point, there's no issue finality like there is in 13 Part 52.

14 MEMBER REMPE: So, your comment about 15 well, yeah, maybe there's more finality, but we've got 16 some limitations and conditions that might come into 17 play.

18 And when I was looking through your SERs, 19 there are some interesting limitations and conditions 20 regarding -- like, because this is new -- well, it's 21 not new technology, but we've not been using it for a 22 lot of years -- if you see something different, we may 23 have some additional changes.

24 And have you ever done that in a topical 25 report review before, or in recent years?

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28 1 Because I thought in some ways it's like 2 a get out of jail free card that you've put in, 3 there's a limitation and condition. Have you done 4 that before? Because I don't recall something as 5 different as that in past reviews.

6 MR. MAGRUDER: So, I'll let the technical 7 reviewers talk specifically about that, but I think 8 these topicals did present some challenges because 9 there were so many new features and so many things 10 that we're waiting on.

11 MEMBER REMPE: Right.

12 MR. MAGRUDER: And so, there was a lot of 13 good discussion among the staff about how to write it.

14 MEMBER REMPE: But you have examples where 15 you've done that in -- I hadn't seen that before, and 16 it's a little -- I mean, maybe back in the MHTGR and 17 PRISM days, they did that too, but I didn't recall it.

18 MR. MAGRUDER: I don't know of any 19 specific examples, but we can talk more later about 20 that.

21 MEMBER PETTI: Certainly in the MHTGR 22 days, there were a long list of things that drove that 23 program for the next decade.

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29 1 questions.

2 I mean, they had specific items of where 3 they were looking into.

4 MEMBER PETTI: Right. Well, because the 5 technologies were a little more mature.

6 MEMBER REMPE: Right.

7 MEMBER PETTI: Right. Keep on going.

8 MR. HASTINGS: All right, next slide.

9 The goals of a licensing strategy are 10 straightforward.

11 The chairman has said in several public 12 forums that if we can't find a way to take advantage 13 of increased safety in advanced designs, we all will 14 have failed, and we certainly agree with that.

15 Kairos' intents to take advantage of the 16 significant safety margins of the FHR design, not only 17 to compete with natural gas as a way to accomplish our 18 mission of enabling the world's transition to clean 19 energy, but also to achieve the enabling goals that 20 you see here.

21 First, to get early acceptance of the FHR 22 safety case in order to retire programmatic risk as 23 early as possible, which is most of what we've been 24 talking about already this morning.

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30 1 enabling both economic competitiveness and true focus 2 on safety significant aspects of the plan.

3 And third, to build flexibility into the 4 process invigorating the design so that every tweak in 5 the design going forward doesn't constitute another 6 significance licensing action, to the extent we can 7 achieve that.

8 So with that, I'll turn things over to Dr.

9 Ed Blandford, who will discuss Kairos' testing and 10 development overview.

11 DR. CORRADINI: Ah, there we go.

12 DR. BLANDFORD: Excellent, good morning.

13 Thank you. As Peter mentioned, my name is Ed 14 Blandford. I am the cofounder and chief technology 15 officer of Kairos Power. I'm going to provide a quick 16 overview of our testing and development program.

17 Next slide.

18 So, this slide we present in a number of 19 public forums. It pretty much encapsulates everything 20 that we do at Kairos.

21 At the top, it outlines what we would 22 consider a conventional development cycle, where we 23 have a plan, design, build, test sequence.

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31 1 really trying to break down the cycles and really 2 accelerate development.

3 But Kairos' focus is really on the bottom 4 part of that slide that shows how we go through that 5 process through an iterative development effort, and 6 so this really encapsulates a lot of the activities 7 that we're doing today.

8 Peter had talked through our licensing 9 approach.

10 That's an example of that sort of 11 iterative, putting the early topical reports in front 12 of the staff, and walking through our technology.

13 So this really encapsulates a lot of our 14 development program.

15 Next slide.

16 We recognize the importance of 17 demonstrating our technology.

18 This is a very, very big part of our DNA, 19 it's a very big part of who we are and what we're 20 focused on.

21 We recognize that this is a new 22 technology, but it's an area that we see a lot of 23 opportunities.

24 We also recognize that there's a need for 25 testing facilities to support our development program.

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32 1 So in this slide, it shows the progression 2 of a series of test facilities that Kairos is 3 currently invested in.

4 It's already stood up, or is in the 5 process of standing up.

6 And it really starts with the first two 7 letters. It's a little bit of a QRSTU.

8 It starts with what we call our Rapid Lab, 9 which is a rapid analysis prototype and iterative 10 design lab.

11 This is located in our headquarters in 12 Alameda.

13 It's a part of our facility where we're 14 able to iterate quickly, so we use rapid prototyping 15 technologies to produce components, iterate the 16 surrogate fluids, and really inform elements of the 17 design that are important.

18 It allows us to move quickly.

19 In parallel, we understand the importance 20 of working at the high temperature and working with 21 the prototypical fluids, and so we also have what we 22 call our Salt Lab, which is a facility that we're 23 standing up in our Alameda lab.

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33 1 the beryllium salts. Slide. In parallel, we also 2 have what's called our Testing Facility or our T-3 Facility.

4 This is actually a location that we're 5 about to open up in the state of New Mexico, in 6 Albuquerque, and this is an area where we plan on 7 doing larger scale qualification testing.

8 And so, we're very hard at work trying to 9 stand up that facility and those capabilities.

10 DR. CORRADINI: If this is an appropriate 11 time to ask, where's that in New Mexico within the 12 laboratory structure?

13 DR. BLANDFORD: It's in Albuquerque.

14 DR. CORRADINI: Okay, but --

15 DR. BLANDFORD: So it's a 16 private facility, so there's been a little bit of 17 press, so it's in the public domain.

18 DR. CORRADINI: Okay, fine.

19 DR. BLANDFORD: But it's at -- it's called 20 the Mesa Del Sol development site.

21 DR. CORRADINI: Okay, thank you.

22 DR. BLANDFORD: And then lastly, there's 23 a user facility, and this is an area where we would 24 anticipate training end users in terms of operations 25 and maintenance.

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34 1 That's the one facility that we're working 2 towards today that doesn't physically exist right now.

3 Next slide.

4 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Before you go on?

5 DR. BLANDFORD: Uh-huh?

6 MEMBER KIRCHNER: So, your slide says non-7 nuclear.

8 DR. BLANDFORD: Correct.

9 MEMBER KIRCHNER: So, have you a shortlist 10 or development and test plan for those aspects that 11 actually have a nuclear component?

12 DR. BLANDFORD: Good question. So, we've 13 committed to both a nuclear and a non-nuclear test 14 program, and we'll get into a little bit more of the 15 details later on today.

16 It's difficult for us to go in those 17 nuclear facilities today, and so we believe a 18 combination of our nuclear testing, where we leverage 19 a lot of the DOE complex to deal with radiations and 20 do the type of work that we need to do compliments the 21 non-nuclear test program. So it's a combination of 22 both.

23 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Can you speak up 24 louder? They cannot hear you.

25 DR. BLANDFORD: Oh, I'm sorry.

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35 1 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Can we ask them to 2 increase the volume?

3 DR. CORRADINI: Yeah, that might be a 4 crappy microphone. Try the one next to you.

5 (Simultaneous speaking.)

6 DR. BLANDFORD: All right. Is this 7 better?

8 DR. CORRADINI: Yes.

9 DR. BLANDFORD: Okay. Sorry, apologies.

10 DR. CORRADINI: Just get closer to Peter.

11 You're colleagues. However much you feel like you 12 have to.

13 MEMBER REMPE: What about the fuel 14 fabrication capability, because it's not exactly what 15 we've seen even in our national communities.

16 There's some differences in the fuel, and 17 where will that be made?

18 DR. BLANDFORD: That's a good question.

19 I believe we're going to be submitting our fuel 20 qualification topical report.

21 I'm not sure the exact schedule for when 22 we're submitting that, but that'll be a time for us to 23 really jump into the details of that.

24 So right now, some of that information is 25 actually proprietary, so.

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36 1 DR. SCHULTZ: Yeah, excuse me, the 2 operations and training, the user facility, how is 3 that -- are you going to talk about that today?

4 Conceptually, it sounds like a great idea.

5 DR. BLANDFORD: Sure.

6 DR. SCHULTZ: But, how far have you gone 7 with identifying the details of that?

8 DR. BLANDFORD: The details of it we don't 9 have fully fleshed out yet.

10 Conceptually, I can speak we're at a high 11 level.

12 So it's basically a full scale version of 13 the primary side of the plant, and it's an opportunity 14 for us to train operators with the real equipment, 15 from the whole spectrum of effectively inservice 16 inspections, component replacements, and getting 17 familiar with the technology.

18 The concept is at a high level.

19 DR. SCHULTZ: Great idea, thank you.

20 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: And are you thinking 21 of a single module in a remote location, or are you 22 thinking of a multi-module with a single control room 23 and 25 units?

24 DR. BLANDFORD: I think that's to be determined, 25 and it's an area that we'll check --

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37 1 (Simultaneous speaking.)

2 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: But you're staying 3 open -- that would affect a lot of the training and 4 the design of the control room obviously.

5 DR. BLANDFORD: Sure. And just to 6 clarify, the U-Facility and concept goes well beyond 7 control room, you know, training simulator.

8 This was really working on the hardware, 9 so that would be a singular module that we would be 10 looking at.

11 DR. CORRADINI: Ah, thanks. This might be 12 for the closed session.

13 So from the standpoint of using this, I'll 14 call it challenging coolant, which has its own 15 chemical safety issues, where is there experience in 16 the United States of this in the past?

17 DR. BLANDFORD: So, and this is something 18 that we can probably talk about in private session.

19 DR. CORRADINI: Okay, then we can wait.

20 Okay, fine.

21 DR. BLANDFORD: But we recognize that, and 22 it's important to have the right partnerships and work 23 with the right people that have the prior experiences.

24 DR. CORRADINI: Okay, fine.

25 MEMBER BLEY: You mentioned the training.

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38 1 Do you have people on the staff as you work in that 2 area who have actual operating experience?

3 DR. BLANDFORD: We do.

4 MEMBER BLEY: You know, engineers think 5 they're best at this, but they often get surprised.

6 PARTICIPANT: Very much so.

7 DR. BLANDFORD: I would be remiss to that.

8 So, our vice president of engineering, Mark Peres, was 9 a former operator at FFTF.

10 We do have people on staff that do have 11 operational experience, and that's very valuable for 12 us. So I'm going to go ahead and pass this off to Dr.

13 Nico Zweibaum.

14 DR. ZWEIBAUM: Good morning, everyone. Is 15 this mic better? Okay. Very good.

16 As Ed said, my name is Nico Zweibaum. I 17 am the senior manager of engineering testing at Kairos 18 Power, and I was also one of the preparers for scaling 19 methodology topical report, which I'm going to give a 20 brief overview of right now.

21 Next slide, please.

22 So, what was the purpose of that topical 23 report? We are describing the methodology we intend 24 to use to scale both integral effects tests, referred 25 to as IETs, and separate effects tests, or SETs, that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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39 1 will support the KP-FHR evaluation model assessment 2 base.

3 The report goes through the justification 4 for the use of surrogate fluids that enable direct and 5 comprehensive local measurements of the phenomena that 6 are under investigation, and the use of surrogate 7 fluids is due to their higher compatibility for high 8 accuracy instrumentation that is readily available, 9 for instance, to measure temperature and flow 10 velocities.

11 The intent of that report was to 12 communicate and request the NRC review and approval to 13 use our scaling methodology with surrogate fluids 14 described in the report, namely, heat transfer oils 15 and water for testing, including in the assessment 16 base of evaluation models that support our safety 17 analysis.

18 Next.

19 So what is the scope of that report?

20 First off, we are basing our scaling methodology on 21 the well-known hierarchy called two-tiered scaling 22 methodology, or H2TS.

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40 1 and SETs, and the methodology includes quantification 2 of distortions in the scaling.

3 The report addresses scaling of our 4 primary heat transport system, thermal fluids, IETs 5 for the KP-FHR plant at normal operating conditions 6 with forced flow, as well as transients that involve 7 natural circulation.

8 And it describes the use of specific 9 classes of heat transfer oils that are deemed 10 acceptable surrogate fluids for these integral effects 11 tests.

12 In addition, the report also addresses scaling 13 of specific phenomena in component level separate 14 effects tests that would also use a specific class of 15 heat transfer oil or water as acceptable surrogate 16 fluids.

17 The figure to the right is mainly provided 18 for illustration, but is from the NRC's Regulatory 19 Guide 1.203 on evaluation methods, development, and 20 assessment process.

21 And I apologize for the very small font, 22 but the element 2 of that process includes scaling 23 efforts and identification of integral effects tests 24 and separate effects tests that are supposed to 25 support our safety analysis methodology, and this is NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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41 1 really what that scaling report is about, is 2 addressing those parts of element 2 of the EMDAP 3 process.

4 DR. CORRADINI: This makes perfect sense.

5 The one thing though about your two surrogates are 6 that they don't freeze and they don't get gooey.

7 So, is it your job to worry about that, or 8 the next person down the line's job to worry about 9 that?

10 DR. ZWEIBAUM: Well, so the report really 11 addresses what happens outside of that range.

12 DR. CORRADINI: Okay.

13 DR. ZWEIBAUM: It --

14 DR. CORRADINI: Okay, that's fine.

15 DR. ZWEIBAUM: Yeah.

16 DR. CORRADINI: Okay.

17 MEMBER PETTI: So, I have a question just 18 to help me understand. As I understand H2TS, I mean, 19 it was really focused on the coolant, right, in the 20 light water reactor, right?

21 So I've got a heat flux with a -- from the 22 fuel rods that don't move that's static. Here, your 23 fuel is moving.

24 This does not really apply to the movement 25 of the fuel in the core. Is that a fair statement?

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42 1 DR. ZWEIBAUM: So, our scaling approach 2 does.

3 It is true that H2TS doesn't touch this 4 specific topic, but the scaling that we've developed 5 includes pebble movement in the coolant, and this will 6 be one of the types of separate effects tests that we 7 will talk about today.

8 MEMBER PETTI: Not heated?

9 DR. ZWEIBAUM: That is right.

10 The movement of the fuel in the core is 11 largely decoupled from the heat transfer aspects 12 because the fuel moves at a very slow pace in the core 13 ---

14 (Simultaneous speaking.)

15 DR. CORRADINI: So it's basically just a 16 density ---- it's just basically a buoyancy density?

17 MEMBER PETTI: Okay, did I misread 18 something? I read that the pebbles are really 19 cruising.

20 (Simultaneous speaking.)

21 MEMBER PETTI: Yes. We'll put that on the 22 list when we get into the closed session.

23 DR. ZWEIBAUM: Sure.

24 MEMBER PETTI: Maybe I misread it, but I 25 thought that the fluids were a lot more than, say, a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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43 1 gas reactor pebble bed.

2 DR. ZWEIBAUM: Yeah, we can talk about 3 that in the closed session.

4 MEMBER PETTI: Okay.

5 MEMBER KIRCHNER: But for the scaling 6 purposes, you're just assuming the pebbles are static?

7 DR. ZWEIBAUM: As far as the heat transfer 8 separate effects tests, that's right.

9 MEMBER REMPE: So, what about the fact 10 that in the real reactor that there is nuclear heat 11 coming out of the pebbles, or decay heat, if you're 12 doing some sort of transient?

13 How do you simulate that, because I didn't 14 see that in the scaling report.

15 DR. ZWEIBAUM: So that would be the heat 16 source that we would have to scale, whatever the heat 17 generation levels are.

18 So, the level of either full power or 19 decay heat power would come from our neutronic 20 simulations. Is that --

21 MEMBER REMPE: But you're looking at fluid 22 flow, and it seems like that would be an effect on the 23 fluid flow, and so you're separating that out?

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44 1 obviously, in our scale tests, but scaled from the 2 heat generation that would happen from nuclear fission 3 in the core.

4 MEMBER REMPE: So I guess I didn't see how 5 you're going to heat them in the scale tests, and so 6 when you get -- you can wait until the closed session, 7 but I did not see how you were going to introduce that 8 into the --

9 DR. ZWEIBAUM: Yeah, we can talk --

10 MEMBER REMPE: Whatever you're simulating.

11 DR. ZWEIBAUM: We can talk about it more 12 in the closed session, but one thing to note is that 13 this report is really about the methodology, and not 14 necessarily about the engineering that would allow us 15 to meet that methodology.

16 But, I'd be happy to talk about it a 17 little bit more in the closed session.

18 MEMBER PETTI: Yeah, you see members 19 jumping to the details, right, because this is kind of 20 theoretical, and so.

21 DR. ZWEIBAUM: Sure. So, this is really 22 the meat of our validation testing program right now.

23 We are using those scaling methods to 24 support acceleration of our validation testing road 25 map.

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45 1 And we talked about the combination of 2 separate effects tests and integral effects tests all 3 use reduced scale in terms of size, power, 4 temperature, surrogate fluids, and surrogate 5 materials.

6 Both are under development in our Rapid 7 Lab facility in Alameda that Dr. Blandford talked 8 about.

9 We already have a number of separate effects 10 tests that are up and running as of now.

11 For illustration here, you have pictures 12 of a few of our fluid dynamics tests using room 13 temperature water and 40 percent geometric scale, as 14 well as heat transfer tests that use a surrogate heat 15 transfer oil to 72 degrees Celsius matches the 16 properties of our FliBe coolant at 600 C, also at 17 reduced geometric scale.

18 And coming up towards the end of this year 19 would be our first integral effects tests facility, 20 which would be a half height roughly facility scaled 21 to our primary heat transport system.

22 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: I'm curious. It's 23 relatively easy to heat up a rod because you can 24 connect from the top and the bottom.

25 How do you heat up your balls?

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46 1 DR. ZWEIBAUM: I guess we can talk about 2 that in the closed session.

3 (Simultaneous speaking.)

4 MEMBER REMPE: And keep them heated, is 5 the question too.

6 DR. ZWEIBAUM: Huh?

7 MEMBER REMPE: And keep them heated. You 8 could start with them hot, but yeah.

9 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Okay, we'll talk in 10 the closed session.

11 DR. ZWEIBAUM: Yes.

12 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Obviously, you had 13 some patents in that? You should.

14 DR. ZWEIBAUM: And so this combination of 15 the separate effects test and integral effects test is 16 really the basis for validation of our evaluation 17 models, which would lead us to the KP-1 demonstration 18 and reactor full scale FliBe coolant, and TRISO fuel 19 pebbles.

20 Next, please. So first, about IETs.

21 At a high level, the scaling methodology 22 we use, this is the analysis for using the surrogate 23 fluid, mainly heat transfer oil, for the KP-FHR 24 primary heat transport system.

25 The classes of licensing basis events that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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47 1 are illustrated in the topical report include steady-2 state normal operation, which is forced circulation 3 operation, as well as transients that involve the loss 4 of force flow in a transition to natural circulation.

5 This would include pump trips, losses of 6 heat sink, station blackouts, and so on.

7 The methodology in the report is 8 illustrated using an idealized version of our primary 9 heat transport system and scaled IET.

10 You have this very simplified schematic 11 here that shows this configuration with the pebble bed 12 reactor core, primary salt pump, hot leg piping going 13 into an intermediate heat exchanger, then cold leg 14 returning to the core.

15 Although this is a simplified model that's 16 illustrated in the methodology, the methodology can be 17 extrapolated to a number of different branches in 18 several loops, as would be the case in the current KP-19 FHR design.

20 Next.

21 Also in the report is our scaling 22 methodology for a number of separate effects tests.

23 These are used to develop closure models 24 and correlations for phenomena that happen at the 25 module or component level, and the topical report NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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48 1 covers generic fluid dynamics and heat transfer 2 phenomena, as well as some KP-FHR design specific 3 phenomena.

4 And those six types of phenomena are 5 examples of what's covered in the report, namely 6 forced circulation fluid dynamics, convective heat 7 transfer, conjugate heat transfer with solid 8 structures, twisted elliptical tube experiments, 9 pebble bed granular flow dynamics experiments, and 10 forced median impact bed heat transfer experiments 11 that are relevant to our core.

12 MEMBER PETTI: Can I ask a question? You 13 know, there's lots of literature out there for packed 14 beds and correlations.

15 I mean, do you think that they'll end up 16 working and you'll spend just a lot of time, you know, 17 providing some data to show that for your situation, 18 that they'll be one close from the chemical 19 engineering industry?

20 DR. ZWEIBAUM: So the existing experience 21 with those packed bed correlations don't directly 22 apply to the ranges we're operating at.

23 Namely, the Prandtl number of our fluid is 24 much higher than what's being reported in the 25 literature for both gas-cooled reactors, obviously, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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49 1 and also outside of the nuclear industry for other 2 experiments.

3 So this is the reason why we need to run 4 our own tests --

5 (Simultaneous speaking.)

6 MEMBER PETTI: Okay, so it's for the 7 Prandtl number?

8 DR. ZWEIBAUM: To get out of that.

9 MEMBER PETTI: Great, thanks.

10 DR. CORRADINI: So, neither your first 11 bullet in forced circulation fluid dynamics, nor your 12 fifth bullet on, I'll call it pebble bed movement, 13 have historical or past literature basis?

14 Do you guys have to do it from scratch?

15 That's what I was gathering from Dave's question that 16 you can rely on past --

17 (Simultaneous speaking.)

18 DR. ZWEIBAUM: So yeah, a lot of this is 19 not breaking new ground. Obviously, for circulation 20 fluid dynamics, it's a pretty well-known topic for 21 several centuries.

22 The idea was really to compile all of this 23 in our own methodology to make sure that the staff 24 agrees that this is indeed the right approach in our 25 case.

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50 1 DR. CORRADINI: All right, thank you.

2 MEMBER RICCARDELLA: So, I assume that the 3 primary purpose of these tests and scaling is the 4 qualified computer codes that you're going to use to 5 analyze it, right?

6 And then --

7 DR. ZWEIBAUM: Yes, this is the purpose of 8 the EMDAP process.

9 MEMBER RICCARDELLA: And then if it works 10 on the test, then presumably it works when you apply 11 these codes to the reactor, right?

12 DR. ZWEIBAUM: That is right.

13 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: And have you 14 considered the fact that we have so much margin on the 15 fuel pellets that if you miss your heat risk 16 coefficient by a factor of two, who cares? You just 17 raise the temperature of the fuel and keep cranking.

18 DR. ZWEIBAUM: That is very beneficial to 19 us, obviously, and you'll see in the --

20 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: And you probably 21 would take advantage of that?

22 DR. ZWEIBAUM: Yes, we would be in the --

23 (Simultaneous speaking.)

24 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Because that would be 25 a hard sell, a very logical sell, and I will support NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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51 1 you in it, but it is going to be a hard sell.

2 Pressure drop, obviously you need to know, 3 did you want to have amount of circulation, but not 4 easy to measure. The heat risk coefficient you can 5 have four or a factor of two and nothing happens.

6 DR. ZWEIBAUM: Okay.

7 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Just put it in there.

8 It's going to be a hard sell.

9 DR. KRUIZENGA: I'm Alan Kruizenga. I'm 10 the director of salt chemistry at Kairos Power, and 11 I'm the primary preparer of the reactor coolant 12 topical report, and then we'll just go over just a 13 couple of slides so you have a little bit of an idea 14 of what we're looking at, and what the purpose of --

15 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Alan, is that 16 microphone working? Because you don't sound as good 17 as me.

18 DR. KRUIZENGA: I mean you've got a really 19 nice voice.

20 (Laughter.)

21 DR. CORRADINI: Move closer.

22 DR. KRUIZENGA: He sounds really good, so 23 I -- how about now, is that better?

24 DR. CORRADINI: That's much better.

25 DR. KRUIZENGA: Okay, great, excellent.

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52 1 All right, perfect.

2 So, as has been said already this morning, 3 we're using FliBe as a coolant for our reactor.

4 There's a few reasons, and they've been 5 covered a little bit already, but really it's the fact 6 that it's a coolant that helps provide enhanced safety 7 properties, it has a high boiling point, it has high 8 thermal inertia, minimal short-term, long-term 9 activation products in the salt itself.

10 And it's been optimized over time through 11 use during the molten salt reactor experiment back in 12 Oak Ridge.

13 The high density fluid has good heat 14 capacity, again with that thermal inertia, pace, the 15 viscosity is comparable to water in a factor of 5, and 16 it's stable under radiation at high temperatures.

17 And then lastly, from a safety 18 perspective, it's a good solvent for fission products.

19 So that's one of the reasons it was viewed as favored.

20 MEMBER BLEY: How about worker safety?

21 DR. KRUIZENGA: That's a great question.

22 MEMBER BLEY: Thank you.

23 DR. KRUIZENGA: I mean I think you're more 24 referring from a chemical perspective?

25 MEMBER BLEY: Yeah.

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53 1 DR. KRUIZENGA: So certainly, we're aware 2 of that.

3 That's something -- like, I have 4 personally, along with many others in the company, 5 have spent a lot of time trying to work with the right 6 partners to develop good procedures and practices that 7 are compliant, and keep our workers safe, so it's 8 extremely important.

9 DR. CORRADINI: Alan, where is the 10 industrial experience in the United States in terms of 11 using beryllium compound fluids?

12 Because that's I think what Dennis is 13 getting at.

14 MEMBER BLEY: Yeah.

15 DR. SCHULTZ: And developing safety 16 programs --

17 DR. CORRADINI: And developing safety 18 programs.

19 DR. SCHULTZ: Related to that.

20 DR. KRUIZENGA: So, as far as chemical 21 processing -- so we could talk a little bit more in 22 the closed section, but I'll give you just kind of a 23 quick snippet.

24 Just even from the extraction, beryllium 25 ore has to go through a series of aqueous processing NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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54 1 to get in a state that it can ultimately be made into 2 beryllium metal.

3 So there is some precedent, at least in 4 the chemical manufacturing industry, that beryllium is 5 in a liquid state and has to be taken precautions 6 appropriately for that.

7 I don't know if that's helpful, but there 8 is some precedence, and this isn't at a high 9 temperature, again, which is different for our 10 application.

11 MEMBER KIRCHNER: This is in the category 12 that Jose was mentioning. You know, full disclosure 13 would say up front that beryllium is a hazard.

14 DR. KRUIZENGA: Beryllium is a chemical 15 hazard.

16 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Then you're going to have 17 to take counter measures or whatever to deal with it.

18 DR. KRUIZENGA: Yes.

19 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Because the industry by 20 and large has shunned working with beryllium. I mean, 21 other than in a metal form.

22 MEMBER BLEY: Well, even in a metal form.

23 I mean --

24 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Even in a metal form.

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55 1 a lot, but there are a lot of --

2 MEMBER KIRCHNER: I know one business that 3 used a lot of beryllium.

4 MEMBER BLEY: Sick and dead people around, 5 in my experience.

6 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: And ordinarily it is 7 actually forbidden to even mention the name.

8 MEMBER PETTI: Does the flowing activate?

9 I remember --

10 DR. KRUIZENGA: It does, but it's got a 11 quite short half-life. I think it's less than a minute 12 or so.

13 MEMBER PETTI: Yeah, so it's like sort of 14 N16 in a water reactor sort of, right? Okay. So --

15 DR. CORRADINI: What activates it?

16 MEMBER PETTI: Flowing 19 I think, right?

17 DR. KRUIZENGA: I think so. I think 18 that's right.

19 DR. CORRADINI: And it's about a minute 20 and a half long?

21 DR. KRUIZENGA: Yeah, about a minute.

22 MEMBER RICCARDELLA: Okay. Would you 23 briefly describe the process how it achieves a 24 negative temperature coefficient?

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56 1 decreases as it goes up in temperature.

2 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Yeah so, say again?

3 DR. KRUIZENGA: As you go up in 4 temperature, the change in density reduces the 5 moderation.

6 MEMBER RICCARDELLA: And it is a moderator?

7 I thought the graphite was the moderator, no?

8 DR. KRUIZENGA: The graphite is the 9 primary moderator.

10 MEMBER KIRCHNER: The graphite is the 11 primary moderator.

12 DR. KRUIZENGA: Beryllium does have some 13 moderation capability, though.

14 (Simultaneous speaking.)

15 MEMBER KIRCHNER: It becomes a second 16 order effect on reactivity transients and such.

17 MEMBER RICCARDELLA: Okay.

18 DR. CORRADINI: Go ahead.

19 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: You can hear from the 20 questions that everybody's going to complain about 21 beryllium, so can you give us a short 30 second answer 22 unclassified why you chose beryllium?

23 Is it for neutron efficiency, or is it for 24 chemical viscosity, transparency? Is there a 25 particular reason that you didn't use regular salt?

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57 1 And just put it to rest so we keep asking 2 you --

3 DR. KRUIZENGA: Yeah. So I have more 4 information in the closed session, but --

5 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Wait.

6 DR. KRUIZENGA: Okay, great.

7 MEMBER BLEY: Well, let me ask one other.

8 DR. KRUIZENGA: Sure.

9 MEMBER BLEY: I don't know the chemistry, 10 but if you get water near the fluoride salt, can you 11 get HF coming out?

12 DR. KRUIZENGA: You can get some trace 13 amounts of HF.

14 MEMBER BLEY: Only trace amounts?

15 DR. KRUIZENGA: We haven't fully 16 quantified --

17 (Simultaneous speaking.)

18 MEMBER BLEY: Now you keep the water away 19 from it?

20 DR. KRUIZENGA: We do keep the water away 21 from it, and we're aware of it, and that's part of our 22 ongoing work.

23 MEMBER BLEY: Because that's pretty 24 dangerous stuff too.

25 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: What's your NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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58 1 intermediate salt?

2 DR. KRUIZENGA: It's a nitrate salt, it's 3 a solar salt.

4 (Simultaneous speaking.)

5 DR. KRUIZENGA: No.

6 MEMBER REMPE: You almost look like you're 7 going to go to the next slide, and I know you didn't 8 get to go through your bullets because we interrupted 9 you, but before you leave this slide, I was interested 10 in what data support the fission product retention 11 claims, and how much it was.

12 And then I'm thinking back about with the 13 MHTGR and NPR days, and it's not just fission products 14 one might be wanting to be concerned about, but also 15 if you have say stainless steel somewhere in your 16 system, the chromium can migrate through it and attack 17 the silicon carbide and the TRISO particles.

18 Have you considered those effects in your 19 testing program?

20 DR. KRUIZENGA: We have, and we've 21 considered it. We're aware of it.

22 MEMBER REMPE: Okay.

23 DR. KRUIZENGA: So it's come up during 24 some of our like, internal PIRT processes. So, it's 25 been identified, but we are aware of it.

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59 1 MEMBER REMPE: Okay, so you'll need to 2 have something to add extra protection on that.

3 MEMBER PETTI: I'd like to come back to 4 this in the closed session to talk about some numbers 5 and things.

6 MEMBER BLEY: You just caught my ear with 7 something, your internal PIRT processes. Do you have 8 an external PIRT process too?

9 Have you brought, you know, outside folks 10 in to help you --

11 DR. KRUIZENGA: Well, we've --

12 MEMBER BLEY: Think about key issues.

13 DR. KRUIZENGA: So, can we defer that to 14 the closed session?

15 MEMBER BLEY: Sure, absolutely.

16 DR. KRUIZENGA: We can give a lot more.

17 Then we can give some more information about it.

18 So the purpose really of this coolant 19 report is to establish a common basis specifically for 20 the chemical specification we have for the fluid, and 21 then the thermophysical properties that we're going to 22 use as part of the safety analysis.

23 So, the scope again is the thermophysical 24 properties of the fluid, the chemical specification, 25 so that we're on a common basis for understanding as NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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60 1 we go through some of the future licensing work, what 2 the properties are.

3 DR. CORRADINI: And as well as the 4 allowable span that you can tolerate before things 5 become unacceptable?

6 DR. KRUIZENGA: Right. Yeah, there are 7 bars, so --

8 MEMBER BLEY: All of you have emphasized 9 it earlier, and in your reports, you kind of treat the 10 salt as an extra barrier against fission product 11 release.

12 Are there any nuclear chemical affects 13 that can change that ability to hang on to the fission 14 products?

15 DR. KRUIZENGA: I think this would be 16 maybe a good one to talk in the closed session, so.

17 MEMBER BLEY: Perfect.

18 MEMBER PETTI: So Alan, in terms of the 19 specification, do you see this as an initial 20 specification, and that it might evolve over time?

21 As you do some experiments, you might add 22 -- I mean, there were just some things that weren't in 23 there as limits that I could see, potentially in the 24 future as you do testing and you become more 25 knowledgeable, you might add more to the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

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61 1 specification?

2 DR. KRUIZENGA: I think that's our basis.

3 We just need a place to start, and I think Joy kind of 4 brought it up.

5 We're learning new things, so we expect 6 that we'll manipulate as we have to.

7 MEMBER PETTI: Right.

8 DR. KRUIZENGA: That is it.

9 PARTICIPANT: Never show a slide like that.

10 (Laughter.)

11 DR. CORRADINI: Or you can just defer the 12 questions to the closed session.

13 MEMBER BLEY: I guess it'll come up in the 14 fuel qualification topical, but you're using a 15 different TRISO or some different properties in your 16 TRISO fuel than the stuff my colleague over here did 17 years of testing on.

18 Will that be the time to talk about what 19 that matters to us, and to you?

20 DR. KRUIZENGA: Yes.

21 MEMBER BLEY: Okay.

22 MEMBER PETTI: Okay. Well, I guess at 23 this point in the agenda, we're a little ahead of 24 schedule.

25 DR. CORRADINI: Weidong is checking --

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62 1 MEMBER PETTI: Oh. We're a few minutes 2 ahead of schedule, but it's time for public comments.

3 Do we have anybody in the audience to make a comment?

4 DR. CORRADINI: Hold on.

5 MEMBER PETTI: And I assume the phone 6 line's on?

7 DR. CORRADINI: Weidong is checking out.

8 MEMBER PETTI: Okay, Weidong's checking 9 out.

10 DR. CORRADINI: You may want to just see 11 if anybody's out there.

12 MEMBER PETTI: Yes. Anybody on the open 13 line?

14 DR. CORRADINI: We're right on time.

15 PARTICIPANT: Yes, sir.

16 MEMBER PETTI: Any questions?

17 PARTICIPANT: Comments.

18 MEMBER PETTI: Comments? Sorry.

19 PARTICIPANT: No questions at this time.

20 Thank you.

21 MEMBER PETTI: Thank you. We can take a 22 small break. We'll be back here at 9:15. Okay?

23 Great.

24 PARTICIPANT: No.

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63 1 don't speak Greek fluently, what does Kairos mean? I 2 do because I checked it out.

3 PARTICIPANT: Dave, you don't have to go 4 to 9:15, you can accelerate it.

5 MEMBER PETTI: Oh okay. We'll just take 6 five minutes, and then we'll go into closed session.

7 DR. BLANDFORD: Do you want me to answer 8 his --

9 MEMBER PETTI: Yes, please go ahead and 10 answer.

11 DR. BLANDFORD: Sure, so Kairos is an 12 Ancient Greek term for the right or opportune moment, 13 and so it ties into our business case about where we 14 see the market going, so.

15 I've heard it can be pronounced Kairos, 16 and true Greeks will say it that way, so.

17 DR. CORRADINI: Luckily you have no true 18 Greeks on the group.

19 DR. BLANDFORD: Not right now, no.

20 PARTICIPANT: You have one at home.

21 DR. BLANDFORD: Yeah.

22 (Off-microphone comments.)

23 MEMBER PETTI: Yeah, a five minute break.

24 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 25 off the record at 8:58 a.m.)

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OVERVIEW OF KAIROS POWER, SCALING METHODOLOGY AND REACTOR COOLANT TOPICAL REPORTS ACRS SUBCOMMITTEE MEETING, FEBRUARY 21, 2020 Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.

No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.

Kairos Powers mission is to enable the worlds transition to clean energy, with the ultimate goal of dramatically improving peoples quality of life while protecting the environment.

Confidential and Proprietary No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC

Outline

  • Overview of Kairos Power and KP-FHR Design and Development
  • Scaling Methodology Topical Report

Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.

No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.

3

Fluoride Salt-Cooled High-Temperature Reactor (FHR)

Technology Basis Coated Particle Fuel Liquid Fluoride Salt Coolant TRISO Flibe (2LiF-BeF2)

Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.

No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.

4

Overview of Kairos Power

  • Privately funded nuclear energy engineering and design company focused on the commercialization of the fluoride salt-cooled high temperature reactor (FHR)

Founded in 2016 Based in San Francisco Bay Area Builds on UC Berkeley Concept Development and R&D Kairos Power Headquarters Alameda, CA

~120 full-time employees (and growing) selected from diverse industries

  • Development schedule driven by US demonstration by 2030 (or earlier) and rapid deployment ramp in 2030s
  • Leverages technology from past advanced reactor designs, coupled together to provide a competitive design Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.

No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.

5

Design and Development Overview Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.

No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.

6

KP-FHR Features: Safe, Compact, Economical

  • KP-FHR Inherent Safety and Economic Potential are Uniquely Aligned to Replace U.S. Natural Gas Capacity
  • Robust Inherent Safety Large fuel temperature margins Fission products retained by fuel and primary coolant Low-pressure system Passive decay heat removal
  • Lower Capital Costs Reduced reliance on high-cost, nuclear-grade components and KP-1 HTR-PM ARC-100 NuScale structures through KP-FHR intrinsic safety and plant architecture Flibe Helium Sodium Water 320 MWth 250 MWth 260 MWth 200 MWth Leverage conventional materials, existing industrial equipment, 140 Mwe 100 MWe 100 MWe 60 MWe and conventional fabrication and construction methods
  • Reactor vessels drawn to approximate scale.
  • Improved Operating Economics High efficiency Flexible deployment of low-cost nuclear heat 7 Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.

No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.

7

Baseline Licensing Strategy for KP-1 Pre-Application Phase Preliminary Safety Construction Permit Operating License Information Application Application Document (10 CFR 50) (10 CFR 50)

Topical Reports Topical (10Reports CFR 50)

Topical (10Reports CFR 50)

(10 CFR 50)

Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.

No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.

8

Licensing Overview

  • Kairos Power intends to leverage the intrinsic safety characteristics of the KP-FHR fuel and coolant that provides uniquely large safety margins under accident conditions to achieve three high level goals:

Goal 1: Achieve Early Acceptance from NRC of Fundamental KP-FHR Safety Case Goal 2: Minimize Unique Safety-Related Design Requirements for the KP-FHR Goal 3: Retain Flexibility for Design Modifications for Future KP-FHR Iterations Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.

No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.

9

Testing and Development Overview Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.

No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.

10

Kairos Power Nuclear Development Paradigm Shift Conventional Nuclear Development Cycle PLAN DESIGN BUILD TEST TEST EXPERIENCE Kairos Power Accelerated Test Cycles for Innovation and Optimization PLAN DESIGN BUILD TEST PLAN DESIGN BUILD TEST PLAN DESIGN BUILD TEST Test Test Experience Experience TEST EXPERIENCE Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.

No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.

11 11

Kairos Power Testing Program - Facilities Rapid Technology Demonstration Requires Non-Nuclear Development and Qualification Facilities R RAPID LAB Rapid Analysis, Prototyping, and Iterative Design Lab (R-LAB)

S SALT LAB Salt Handling and Loop Testing Lab (S-LAB)

T TESTING FACILITY Component Testing Facility (T-FACILITY)

U USER FACILITY User Operations & Maintenance Training Facility (U-FACILITY)

Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.

No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.

12

Scaling Methodology Topical Report Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.

No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.

13

Purpose of the Scaling Methodology Topical Report

  • The methodology is used to scale integral effects tests (IETs) and separate effects tests (SETs) supporting the KP-FHR evaluation model assessment base
  • Surrogate fluids enable direct and comprehensive, local measurements of the phenomena under investigation due to higher compatibility of high-accuracy instrumentation (e.g., temperature and flow velocity)
  • Kairos Power is requesting NRC review and approval to:

Use the scaling methodology with surrogate fluids described in the report (heat transfer oil and water) for testing included in the assessment base of evaluation models supporting KP-FHR safety analysis Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.

No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.

14 14

Scope of the Scaling Methodology Topical Report

  • Based on the Hierarchical Two-Tiered Scaling (H2TS) methodology Generic scaling method previously developed for and approved by the NRC Selected by Kairos Power for scaling of thermal fluids IETs and SETs Includes quantification of distortions
  • Addresses scaling of primary heat transport system thermal fluids IETs for the KP-FHR at normal operation conditions (forced flow) and transients involving natural circulation Use of specific class of heat transfer oil as acceptable surrogate fluid for IETs
  • Addressed scaling of specific phenomena- and component-level SETs Use of specific class of heat transfer oil or water as acceptable surrogate fluids for SETs Source: U.S. NRC (2005). Transient and Accident Analysis Methods. Regulatory Guide 1.203.

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Scaling Methods Support Acceleration of Kairos Powers Validation Testing Roadmap KP-SETs R-Lab 2020 KP-IETs KP-1 R-Lab Validation of KP-FHR Evaluation Models Demonstration 2020 Reactor 1/2 Height Fluid dynamics tests Heat transfer tests Room-temperature water Heat transfer oil (72°C) 40% geometric scale Reduced geometric scale Reduced scale (size, power, temperature) Full scale Surrogate fluids Flibe coolant (550-650°C)

Surrogate materials TRISO fuel pebbles Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.

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IET Scaling Methodology

  • Scaling analysis for a surrogate fluid (heat transfer oil) IET of the KP-FHR primary heat transport system
  • Classes of licensing basis events illustrated in the topical report:

Steady-state, normal forced-circulation operations Transients involving loss of forced flow and transition to natural circulation (e.g., pump trip, loss of heat sink)

  • Illustrated using an idealized model of the KP-FHR primary heat transport system and scaled IET:

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SET Scaling Methodology

  • SETs are used to develop closure models and correlations for module/component-level phenomena
  • Topical report covers generic fluid dynamics and heat transfer phenomena, and KP-FHR design specific phenomena:

Forced circulation fluid dynamics Convective heat transfer Conjugate heat transfer with solid structures Twisted elliptical tube experiments Pebble bed granular flow dynamics experiments Porous media and packed bed heat transfer experiments Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.

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Reactor Coolant Topical Report Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.

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KP-FHR uses Flibe (2LiF:BeF2) as a coolant

  • Flibe coolant provides enhanced safety features relative to LWR designs.

Large thermal inertia minimizes rapid temperature transients Negative temperature coefficient of reactivity supports reactivity control Minimal short-term and long-term activation

  • Flibe is an optimization for nuclear reactor operation High density and heat capacity (i.e. thermal inertia)

Viscosity comparable to water Stable under radiation and at high temperatures

  • Flibe supports safety basis as a barrier to fission product release.

LiF-BeF2 mixture (Flibe)

Absorbs fission products that escape the TRISO protective layer, providing additional functional containment protection.

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Reactor Coolant Topical Report

Purpose:

  • Establish a common basis for safety related analysis between the NRC and Kairos Power
  • Kairos Power requested NRC review and approval of Flibe specifications and thermophysical properties.

Scope and Use:

  • Thermophysical properties of Flibe
  • Chemical Specification used in KP-FHR Methods and assumptions for setting specification limits
  • Specifications and properties for future safety analyses in license applications.

Copyright © 2020 Kairos Power LLC. All Rights Reserved.

No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC.

21

Questions Confidential and Proprietary, Part 810 Export-Controlled Information No Reproduction or Distribution Without Express Written Permission of Kairos Power LLC 22

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