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{{#Wiki_filter:RIV000109 Submitted: June 29, 2012 EXCERPT United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission Official Hearing Exhibit In the Matter of
{{#Wiki_filter:RIV000109 United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission Official Hearing Exhibit                                                   Submitted: June 29, 2012 Entergy Nuclear Operations, Inc.
: Entergy Nuclear Operations, Inc. (Indian Point Nuclear Generating Units 2 and 3)
In the Matter of:
ASLBP #:07-858-03-LR-BD01 Docket #:05000247 l 05000286 Exhibit #:
(Indian Point Nuclear Generating Units 2 and 3)                                                         EXCERPT c.\.~P.R REGU<.q...      ASLBP #: 07-858-03-LR-BD01 l~'~
Identified:
Docket #: 05000247 l 05000286
Admitted: Withdrawn:
  '"                            0~
Rejected: Stricken: Other: RIV000109-00-BD01 10/15/2012 10/15/2012 REGU<.q ... '" 0 I-<I>
Exhibit #: RIV000109-00-BD01                  Identified: 10/15/2012 I-
* j 'e/-s" 0' 'I .-It***-I< * {LAS H-Official Trans;cript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION Title: Docket Number: Location:
  <I>                        *  ~
Date: Work Order No.: Entergy [\Iuclear Vermont Yankee 50-271-LR; ASLBP No. 06-849-03-LR Newfane, Vermont Thursday, July 24, 2008 NRC-2296 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC. Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433 DOCKETED USNRC July 25, 2008 (1 :50pm) OFFICE OF SECRETARY RULEMAKINGS AND ADJUDICATIONS STAFF Pages 1451-1741 1;/5-03
Admitted: 10/15/2012                         Withdrawn:
* *
  ~ -                         j
* 1475 1 portraying erosion corrosion to be a combined term 2 between the corrosion that we are now reserving to 3 mean flow-accelerated corrosion from that which is 4 caused mechanically as I interpolate him saying of an 5 erosion type of aspect. So what's your definition of 6 erosion under those assumptions that we're going to 7 reserve the word corrOSlon to be a shortened version 8 of FAC, flow-accelerated corrosion.
      'e/-s"
9 MR. HOPENFELD:
          'I             .-
Erosion, actually, I don't 10 even know it's completely separate from erosion 11 corrosion.
0'      Rejected:                                      Stricken:
I'll have to explain that. But strictly 12 speaking of erosion, my understanding would be you 13 have particles in steam, droplets In steam impinging 14 15 JUDGE W.lI.RDWELL:
It***-I<               Other:
Is that s team droplet 16 impingement?
{LAS H- (~3 Official Trans;cript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
17 MR. HOPENFELD:
 
Yes, that would be. 18 JUDGE WARDWELL:
==Title:==
We separated that out. 19 MR. HOPENFELD:
Entergy [\Iuclear Vermont Yankee Docket Number:                 50-271-LR; ASLBP No. 06-849-03-LR DOCKETED USNRC Location:                      Newfane, Vermont July 25, 2008 (1 :50pm)
It could be called 20 JUDGE WARDWELL:
OFFICE OF SECRETARY RULEMAKINGS AND ADJUDICATIONS STAFF
That's droplet 21 impingement, so back to the corrosion.
* Date:                          Thursday, July 24, 2008 Work Order No.:                NRC-2296                        Pages 1451-1741 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
If they 22 removed droplet impingement, do you agree wi th his 23 definition of erosion as a mechanical process 24 MR. HOPENFELD:
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Not necessarily in the 25 context of corrosion and erosion, I can't separate it. (202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433 1;/5-03
* *
 
* 1476 1 I can explain to you why. You *can' t separate the two. 2 There is no acceptable theory as exactly what happens 3 during the erosion corrosion process. It lS 4 acceptable for the last 30 or 40 years, but you don't 5 have enough shear stress, calcula t.ed shear forces 6 during normal flow. There is not. enough shear t.here 7 to abrade or wash off, as NRC defines it., t.o wash off 8 t.hat. layer. There's been acceptance in the paper t.hat. 9 was writ.t.en in '76 on that subject..
1475 1 portraying erosion corrosion to be a                     combined term
10 JUDGE WARDWELL:
* 2 3
Let me st.op you right. 11 t.here. 12 It.'s my impression t.hat. flow-accelerated 13 corrosion isn't. a physical washing off of t.he oxide, 14 but. more of a chemical melt.ing of it., my simplist.ic 15 mind, and I t.hought I heard Dr. Horowitz--
4 between the corrosion that we are now reserving to mean flow-accelerated corrosion from that which is caused mechanically as I interpolate him saying of an 5 erosion type of aspect.             So what's your definition of 6 erosion under those assumptions that we're going to 7 reserve the word corrOSlon to be a shortened version 8 of FAC,       flow-accelerated corrosion.
again, at 16 the next hearing I'm on, I'm going to limit how many 17 Hs are present for wit.nesses.
9                   MR. HOPENFELD:         Erosion, actually, I don't 10 even know           it's completely separate from erosion 11 corrosion.         I'll have to explain that.             But strictly 12 speaking of erosion,             my understanding would be you 13 have particles in steam, droplets In steam impinging
18 Dr. Horowitz seemed to agree to that. 19 MR. HOPENFELD:
* 14 15 16 impingement?
I took the next step. 20 JUDGE WARDWELL:
JUDGE W.lI.RDWELL:         Is   that s team droplet 17                   MR. HOPENFELD:         Yes,   that would be.
There's no argument, no 21 one says there's enough shear forces to physically 22 remove it, but. t.here's enough chemical act.ion to melt 23 it, isn't there? 24 25 MR. HOPENFELD:
18                   JUDGE WARDWELL:         We separated that out.
No, no, no. NRC says it's a washing away of the oxide. (202) 234*4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433
19                   MR. HOPENFELD:         It could be called 20                   JUDGE       WARDWELL:             That's     droplet 21 impingement,         so back     to     the   corrosion.       If     they 22 removed droplet impingement,                 do you agree wi th his 23 definition of erosion as a mechanical process 24                   MR. HOPENFELD:         Not necessarily in the 25 context of corrosion and erosion, I can't separate it.
* *
*    (202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
* 1477 1 JUDGE WARDWELL:
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701           (202) 234-4433
I'll get to the NRC. MR. HOPENFELD:
 
But back to what I was 3 coming to, there's no acceptable theory. Ther*e are 4 concepts.
1476 1 I can explain to you why.             You *can' t separate the two.
One concept I'm familiar with that has to 5 do --that you can have very, very --some velocity.
* 2 3
6 You may have sufficient, sufficient shear force. It 7 doesn't take much to affect the cohesion, to affect 8 the oxide *layer. And I am not an expert on oxide 9 layer characteristics and all the details of that. 10 That's one theory. There are other theories that Dr. 11 Hausler has proposed, the creation of local extremely 12 high pressure.
4 There is no acceptable theory as exactly what happens during         the   erosion     corrosion       process.
I'd rather he talk about that. 13 Their defini tion doesn't cover those acts, 14 those two acts as I just said. 15 JUDGE WARDWELL:
acceptable for the last 30 or 40 years, but you don't It      lS 5 have       enough   shear   stress,     calcula t.ed   shear   forces 6 during normal flow.             There is not. enough shear t.here 7 to abrade or wash off, as NRC defines it., t.o wash off 8 t.hat. layer.       There's been acceptance in the paper t.hat.
Dr. Hausler, would you 16 like to expound on that in regards to the definition?
9 was writ.t.en in '76 on that subject..
17 DR. HAUSLER: Yes, sir. Your Honor, 18 actually, I would. With your permission I would like 19 to cut through this fog of definition fairly quickly. 20 What this demonstrates that in fact over 21 the years the corrosion engineers have made confusion 22 in their semantics.
10                   JUDGE WARDWELL:           Let me st.op you right.
And the chronology has developed 23 over the years. I mean perhaps to be more specific as 24 to what it is that I want to say. 25 (202) 234*4433 Originally, erosion has been used for NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234*4433
11 t.here.
* *
12                   It.'s my impression t.hat. flow-accelerated 13 corrosion isn't. a physical washing off of t.he oxide,
* 1478 1 corrosion phenomena were the two extremes, were, in 2 fact, mixing with the sal ts, sal ts mixed into the 3 fluid streams. We did, in fact, then have abrasion, 4 mechanical removal of the surface layers. Now this is 5 not what we're looking at. 6 JUDGE WARDWELL:
* 14 15 16 but. more of a chemical melt.ing of it.,
So are you saying we 7 don't have to worry about the erosion part of erosion 8 corrosion?
mind, and I t.hought I heard Dr. Horowitz-- again, at the next hearing I'm on, my simplist.ic I'm going to limit how many 17 Hs are present for wit.nesses.
9 DR. HAUSLER: I think that the corrosion 10 engineers have, in fact, used erosion just like Dr. 11 Horowitz and as Mr. Fitzpatrick indicated in areas of 12 high turbulence where you have high turbulence and you 13 get somewhat localized corrosion, but without the 14 definition of what localized really means. And that 15 the corrosion engineers have identified that as 16 erosion. 17 To approach the problem, I think we would 18 be a lot better off to look maybe at the mechanism of 19 that fundamental.
18                   Dr. Horowitz seemed to agree to that.
And here is what I would say lS 20 that both are corrupt as well as what we might call 21 erosion corrosion due to high turbulence in a specific 22 location are, in fact, due to a dissolution mechanism 23 of the oxide layer on the surface. And the reason for 24 that is that very recently in Germany calculations 25 have been made with respect to the compressive (202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.w. WASHINGTON.
19                   MR. HOPENFELD:         I took the next step.
D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433 I}}
20                   JUDGE WARDWELL:         There's no argument, no 21 one says         there's enough shear forces           to physically 22 remove it, but. t.here's enough chemical act.ion to melt 23 it,     isn't there?
24                   MR. HOPENFELD:       No, no, no. NRC says it's 25 a washing away of the oxide.
*    (202) 234*4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701         (202) 234-4433
 
1477 1                 JUDGE WARDWELL:         I'll get to the NRC.
* 3 4
coming to, concepts.
MR. HOPENFELD:         But back to what I there's no acceptable theory.
One concept I'm familiar with that has to Ther*e are was 5 do -- that you can have very, very -- some velocity.
6 You may have sufficient,           sufficient shear force.             It 7   doesn't take much to affect the cohesion,                 to affect 8 the oxide *layer.       And I     am not an expert on oxide 9   layer characteristics and all               the details of       that.
10   That's one theory.       There are other theories that Dr.
11   Hausler has proposed, the creation of local extremely 12   high pressure.     I'd rather he talk about that.
13                 Their defini tion doesn't cover those acts,
* 14 15 16 those two acts as I       just said.
JUDGE WARDWELL:           Dr. Hausler, like to expound on that in regards to the definition?
would you 17                 DR. HAUSLER:         Yes,     sir. Your   Honor, 18 actually, I would.         With your permission I would like 19   to cut through this fog of definition fairly quickly.
20                 What this demonstrates that in fact over 21   the years the corrosion engineers have made confusion 22 in their semantics.         And the chronology has developed 23 over the years.     I mean perhaps to be more specific as 24 to what it is that I want to say.
25                 Originally,       erosion       has   been used     for
*    (202) 234*4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701           (202) 234*4433
 
1478 1 corrosion phenomena were the two extremes,                     were,       in
* 2 3
4 fact,       mixing with the sal ts, fluid streams.         We did, in fact, mechanical removal of the surface layers.
sal ts mixed into then have abrasion, Now this is the I
5 not what we're looking at.
6                   JUDGE WARDWELL:           So are you       saying we 7 don't have to worry about the erosion part of erosion 8 corrosion?
9                   DR. HAUSLER:         I think that the corrosion 10 engineers have,       in fact,       used erosion just like Dr.
11 Horowitz and as Mr. Fitzpatrick indicated in areas of 12 high turbulence where you have high turbulence and you 13 get     somewhat   localized corrosion,               but without       the
* 14 15 16 definition of what localized really means.
the erosion.
corrosion   engineers         have     identified And that that      as 17                   To approach the problem, I think we would 18 be a lot better off to look maybe at the mechanism of 19 that fundamental.           And here is what I would say                   lS 20 that both are corrupt as well as what we might call 21 erosion corrosion due to high turbulence in a specific 22 location are, in fact, due to a dissolution mechanism 23 of the oxide layer on the surface.                   And the reason for 24 that is that very recently in Germany calculations 25 have       been made   with     respect       to     the compressive
*    (202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.w.
WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701             (202) 234-4433}}

Latest revision as of 17:16, 5 December 2019

Official Exhibit - RIV000109-00-BD01 - Official Transcript of Proceedings, Nuclear Regulatory Commission, Entergy Nuclear Vermont Yankee, 50-271-LR; ASLBP No. 06-849-03-LR, Newfane, Vermont, Pgs 1451-1741 (July 24, 2008), at 1477 (Excerpt)
ML12340A586
Person / Time
Site: Indian Point  Entergy icon.png
Issue date: 06/29/2012
From:
Riverkeeper
To:
Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel
SECY RAS
References
RAS 22866, 50-247-LR, 50-286-LR, ASLBP 07-858-03-LR-BD01
Download: ML12340A586 (5)
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Text

RIV000109 United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission Official Hearing Exhibit Submitted: June 29, 2012 Entergy Nuclear Operations, Inc.

In the Matter of:

(Indian Point Nuclear Generating Units 2 and 3) EXCERPT c.\.~P.R REGU<.q... ASLBP #: 07-858-03-LR-BD01 l~'~

Docket #: 05000247 l 05000286

'" 0~

Exhibit #: RIV000109-00-BD01 Identified: 10/15/2012 I-

* ~

Admitted: 10/15/2012 Withdrawn:

~ - j

'e/-s"

'I .-

0' Rejected: Stricken:

It***-I< Other:

{LAS H- (~3 Official Trans;cript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION

Title:

Entergy [\Iuclear Vermont Yankee Docket Number: 50-271-LR; ASLBP No. 06-849-03-LR DOCKETED USNRC Location: Newfane, Vermont July 25, 2008 (1 :50pm)

OFFICE OF SECRETARY RULEMAKINGS AND ADJUDICATIONS STAFF

  • Date: Thursday, July 24, 2008 Work Order No.: NRC-2296 Pages 1451-1741 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.

Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.

Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433 1;/5-03

1475 1 portraying erosion corrosion to be a combined term

  • 2 3

4 between the corrosion that we are now reserving to mean flow-accelerated corrosion from that which is caused mechanically as I interpolate him saying of an 5 erosion type of aspect. So what's your definition of 6 erosion under those assumptions that we're going to 7 reserve the word corrOSlon to be a shortened version 8 of FAC, flow-accelerated corrosion.

9 MR. HOPENFELD: Erosion, actually, I don't 10 even know it's completely separate from erosion 11 corrosion. I'll have to explain that. But strictly 12 speaking of erosion, my understanding would be you 13 have particles in steam, droplets In steam impinging

  • 14 15 16 impingement?

JUDGE W.lI.RDWELL: Is that s team droplet 17 MR. HOPENFELD: Yes, that would be.

18 JUDGE WARDWELL: We separated that out.

19 MR. HOPENFELD: It could be called 20 JUDGE WARDWELL: That's droplet 21 impingement, so back to the corrosion. If they 22 removed droplet impingement, do you agree wi th his 23 definition of erosion as a mechanical process 24 MR. HOPENFELD: Not necessarily in the 25 context of corrosion and erosion, I can't separate it.

  • (202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

1476 1 I can explain to you why. You *can' t separate the two.

  • 2 3

4 There is no acceptable theory as exactly what happens during the erosion corrosion process.

acceptable for the last 30 or 40 years, but you don't It lS 5 have enough shear stress, calcula t.ed shear forces 6 during normal flow. There is not. enough shear t.here 7 to abrade or wash off, as NRC defines it., t.o wash off 8 t.hat. layer. There's been acceptance in the paper t.hat.

9 was writ.t.en in '76 on that subject..

10 JUDGE WARDWELL: Let me st.op you right.

11 t.here.

12 It.'s my impression t.hat. flow-accelerated 13 corrosion isn't. a physical washing off of t.he oxide,

  • 14 15 16 but. more of a chemical melt.ing of it.,

mind, and I t.hought I heard Dr. Horowitz-- again, at the next hearing I'm on, my simplist.ic I'm going to limit how many 17 Hs are present for wit.nesses.

18 Dr. Horowitz seemed to agree to that.

19 MR. HOPENFELD: I took the next step.

20 JUDGE WARDWELL: There's no argument, no 21 one says there's enough shear forces to physically 22 remove it, but. t.here's enough chemical act.ion to melt 23 it, isn't there?

24 MR. HOPENFELD: No, no, no. NRC says it's 25 a washing away of the oxide.

  • (202) 234*4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

1477 1 JUDGE WARDWELL: I'll get to the NRC.

  • 3 4

coming to, concepts.

MR. HOPENFELD: But back to what I there's no acceptable theory.

One concept I'm familiar with that has to Ther*e are was 5 do -- that you can have very, very -- some velocity.

6 You may have sufficient, sufficient shear force. It 7 doesn't take much to affect the cohesion, to affect 8 the oxide *layer. And I am not an expert on oxide 9 layer characteristics and all the details of that.

10 That's one theory. There are other theories that Dr.

11 Hausler has proposed, the creation of local extremely 12 high pressure. I'd rather he talk about that.

13 Their defini tion doesn't cover those acts,

  • 14 15 16 those two acts as I just said.

JUDGE WARDWELL: Dr. Hausler, like to expound on that in regards to the definition?

would you 17 DR. HAUSLER: Yes, sir. Your Honor, 18 actually, I would. With your permission I would like 19 to cut through this fog of definition fairly quickly.

20 What this demonstrates that in fact over 21 the years the corrosion engineers have made confusion 22 in their semantics. And the chronology has developed 23 over the years. I mean perhaps to be more specific as 24 to what it is that I want to say.

25 Originally, erosion has been used for

  • (202) 234*4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.

WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234*4433

1478 1 corrosion phenomena were the two extremes, were, in

  • 2 3

4 fact, mixing with the sal ts, fluid streams. We did, in fact, mechanical removal of the surface layers.

sal ts mixed into then have abrasion, Now this is the I

5 not what we're looking at.

6 JUDGE WARDWELL: So are you saying we 7 don't have to worry about the erosion part of erosion 8 corrosion?

9 DR. HAUSLER: I think that the corrosion 10 engineers have, in fact, used erosion just like Dr.

11 Horowitz and as Mr. Fitzpatrick indicated in areas of 12 high turbulence where you have high turbulence and you 13 get somewhat localized corrosion, but without the

  • 14 15 16 definition of what localized really means.

the erosion.

corrosion engineers have identified And that that as 17 To approach the problem, I think we would 18 be a lot better off to look maybe at the mechanism of 19 that fundamental. And here is what I would say lS 20 that both are corrupt as well as what we might call 21 erosion corrosion due to high turbulence in a specific 22 location are, in fact, due to a dissolution mechanism 23 of the oxide layer on the surface. And the reason for 24 that is that very recently in Germany calculations 25 have been made with respect to the compressive

  • (202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.w.

WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 (202) 234-4433

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