ML24136A220
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| Issue date: | 03/12/2024 |
| From: | NRC/Chairman, NRC/OCM/CTH |
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| Download: ML24136A220 (1) | |
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1 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
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36TH REGULATORY INFORMATION CONFERENCE (RIC)
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SPECIAL PLENARY: A CONVERSATION BETWEEN THE HONORABLE CHRISTOPHER T.
HANSON, CHAIR, NRC, AND LYDIE EVRARD, DEPUTY DIRECTOR GENERAL, IAEA
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- TUESDAY, MARCH 12, 2024
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The Plenary Session convened at the Bethesda North Marriott Hotel and Conference Center, 5701 Marinelli Road, Rockville, Maryland and via Video-Teleconference, at 11:15 a.m. EDT, the Honorable Christopher T. Hanson, Chair, NRC, presiding.
PRESENT:
CHRISTOPHER T. HANSON, Chair, NRC LYDIE EVRARD, Deputy Director General, IAEA JOHN TAPPERT, Acting Director, Office Nuclear Regulatory Research, NRC
2 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com Proceedings 11:17 a.m.
MR. TAPPERT: Okay. There's no break before our next session. So the next plenary session is a fireside chat between Chair Hanson and IAEA Deputy Director General Lydie Evrard. This is the second year we've had a conversation between the chair and a senior international leader.
And again, I think we have the QR codes down. But use those to submit the app for the questions as well as the people online.
And so I'd like to introduce DDG Evrard. She has led the International Atomic Energy Agency Department of Nuclear Safety and Security since April 2021. Prior to her current position, she served as a commissioner of the French Nuclear Safety Authority and also served a role in France's Ministry of the Environment and Ministry of Economy and Finance.
Her broad experience includes oversight of research and environmental issues, regulation of waste, decommissioning of fuel cycle facilities, management of radioactive materials, and responsibilities for radiation protection and nuclear safety. At the IAEA, she oversees more than 450 staff and coordination of all aspects of IAEA safety and security mission. Chair, the floor is yours.
CHAIR HANSON: Thanks, John. And thank you, Deputy Director General Evrard, Lydie, for being here and joining us here at the RIC. It really has been an absolute pleasure for me personally to work with you for the past three years, three years that have included
3 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com a lot of challenges and some pretty big successes.
One success I think I just want to highlight up front and that I really wanted to thank you for was all the support on the part of the Agency along with my good friend, Christer Viktorsson, from the United Arab Emirates that hosts the Regulatory Effectiveness Conference in the UAE last year. I think that was a great success. And one of the things I appreciate too is the support of the Agency in following up from that conference, not just having it be a collection of documents that sits on a shelf somewhere but actually building momentum for the next conference in three years.
We'll get to this in a minute too. But also just recognizing and really appreciating all of the work that the Agency has done and particularly your group in supporting Ukraine as well as initiatives to harmonize and synergize regulatory approaches for new reactors really across the globe. So before I really dive in to the substance, I wanted to give you a couple minutes to make any remarks you'd like to make.
MS. EVRARD: Thank you. Thank you very much, Chair Hanson, Chris. So it's my great pleasure to be here, and thank you very much for this invitation. Before starting, I would like to say a few words about the U.S. NRC and, more specifically, a big thank you to the U.S.
NRC and to you in particular for the great support we receive continuously, continuous with NRC directly for the participation of many NRC staff in our activities or indirectly for the support you provide to our activities, in particular for capacity building
4 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com activities.
Thank you very much for this. It's very much appreciated.
And we have conducted many activities together. We just mentioned the regulatory conference in Abu Dhabi.
But there are many others in a wide range of areas, nuclear safety, of course, radiation safety, nuclear security, as this is a huge topic for the Agency. So I would like to highlight how much we appreciate your support. Thank you so much.
And I would like echo some of your comments this morning regarding this changing landscape, as this is a big challenge for everyone and the fact that we can work together. It's referring to what you mentioned regarding optimism. It's a force multiplier. I think international cooperation is a force multiplier in this regard as well. So I think the U.S. NRC plays a great role for us. Thank you so much.
CHAIR HANSON: Thank you. Well, let's dive in, shall we?
You've traveled to Ukraine quite a lot in the last two years with your most recent trip with Director General Grossi I think a little over a month ago. Could you just give us an update and your perspectives on the status of operational safety and security in Zaporizhzhia, maybe even including your views about the impact -- I think there was a recent announcement that none of the staff employed by Ukraine's national operator, Energoatom, would be allowed to remain working at the site, et cetera. Can we just hear from you a little bit about what you've learned and what you're seeing there?
5 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com MS. EVRARD: So, Zaporizhzhia, first of all today we completed the 17th rotation of Zaporizhzhia. So the 17th arrived today at Zaporizhzhia safety. So I think this is something I wanted to mention because this is -- we have bids. In fact, our knowledge of Zaporizhzhia for the for the last 18 months, more than 18 months now, and these rotations bring a lot of knowledge to the agency.
And I would like to echo to what the Commissioner Caputo mentioned, this kind of knowledge, you know, management. This is really key, you know, in this kind of situation, because we started with almost no knowledge, really, or let's say a general knowledge of Zaporizhzhia.
We conducted some other missions in Zaporizhzhia before the war started.
But, of course, everything has changed since February and March, the 3rd of March 2022. And we had to reconsider the framework of our assessment for safety and security. This is completely different from any situation we can experience.
In any other member states, whatever the nature of the facility or the situation in any other member states. So, at Zaporizhzhia, we started from scratch with these rotations. After 18 months, we have many teams with these rotations, many experts.
So some of them participated in up to three admissions at Zaporizhzhia. So each mission is one month. So that means that they have now sometimes even more than one month.
So we have gained good knowledge. But having said that, there is a big challenge in how to assess safety and security at the nuclear power plant in a war zone. So that means that we have to
6 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com reconsider some basic principles.
And that's where we came to these seven indispensable pillars which are the most important topics which derive from our international safety centers, which applied to our situation. And as of today, I would say that the situation is very precarious. There is no nuclear power plant designed to operate or even to be in a war zone.
So this is just starting with a very basic, you know, reminder that there is no nuclear power plant located in a war zone.
That means that we have to pay attention to all these potential hazards or external hazards, shelling, loss of offsite power supply, loss of water supply, so with the destruction of the Kakhovka Dam.
I would say we are monitoring the situation. It's really precarious with this recent development with the staff now that has been requested to sign contracts with all of them, so that this is not to continue. But since the first of February 2024, now all staff at Zaporizhzhia needs to have their own contract with the company -- the Russian company.
So that's, of course, implies a lot of new challenges for safety because safety relies on technical equipment, of course, but also people. And this is obvious that when you have staff who is under pressure with this kind of limitations, yes, and the pressure, I think this is very, very challenging for safety.
CHAIR HANSON: It's an incredibly stressful environment.
And it is an ongoing tragedy. I think that's important to recognize that we are still in the midst of this. And it's still a very precarious
7 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com situation, this illegal seizure that Russia has done. But while we're in the midst of this, is it time yet to draw any conclusions or to step back and look at this and things that we can learn and put in place more broadly for ensuring the safe and secure operation of nuclear power plants and conflict zones?
MS. EVRARD: So it's really -- I'm not sure to be able to have conclusions. But you're right. I think we need to, let's see, not to forget what we have learned over the last two years. So this is a kind of unique situation where the situation is not stabilized at all.
This is the major defense between an emergency and an accident and what we are experiencing in the Ukraine. In Ukraine, nothing is predictable. So that means that we -- and we have experienced this with the destruction of the Kakhovka Dam with so many events completely unpredictable. I think that we need to weigh the pros and cons from having this kind of capturing what we have learned from the last two years.
So we are preparing a technical document based on what we have learned at Zaporizhzhia and at the other nuclear power plants as well because the other nuclear power plants may have some challenges as well, of course, because of the war. And this will be kind of interim report for us to keep memory and track of what we have observed over the last two years. That will be an interim report because, of course, we will be able to elaborate more on these lessons learned once the war is over, not now. I think it's just an interim report. But, however,
8 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com I think that will be helpful for us to offer this kind of first protection of how we can strengthen nuclear safety and security in this kind of very unprecedented conditions.
CHAIR HANSON: Good. Well, we'll look forward to seeing that. Thank you. I want to emphasize, we talked about Ukraine and what's going on there is so important and to raise the awareness and to highlight the actions of the Agency.
But your obligations and your work in Ukraine are on top of the core mission, particularly of your organization of safeguards, organization, et cetera. And even outside of that Ukraine work which is substantial, you've seen some challenges and some real successes.
I just wanted to give you an opportunity to talk about all of the other things that the other work that's going on in your part of the agency.
MS. EVRARD: Thank you. I think that's very important to highlight that even if Ukraine has mobilized a lot of resources within the department and within the Agency, we still continue to provide support to member states.
In particular, we continue, of course, the development of safety standards, nuclear safety guidance documents. This is one of our core activities. And we should not stop this.
It's kind of a long-term activity that will be very, very, let's say, difficult to stop and then to restart. So we, of course, will continue. We are continuing this activity.
We continue to provide support to member states for them to apply these standards because it's not enough to have some standards.
9 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com We need to have them applied in the different member states. We continue, of course, our capacity building activities.
And this is something because this is really long term activities. This is thanks to our activities today that we will make, you know, nuclear safety and security stronger in the future. So this is really a long-term activity.
So these are our core activities. We had to reorganize some of them, sometimes to re-prioritize some steps. But we have kept the same, you know, focus on this.
In addition to that, we have some very specific initiatives, such as the one on the SMRs, you know, initiatives. So, Nuclear Harmonization and Standardization Initiative, in fact, providing support to member states and to facilitate the department for safe and secure SMRs. I would like to highlight a very important event on the nuclear security with the inauguration of the new nuclear security training and demonstration center.
So this new center is located in Seibersdorf. So it's not a long way from Vienna. But this is a new training center designed to provide training courses to member states but in a complementary manner, complementary to what member states can find as potential courses in the field of nuclear security. And this center is key, to me, because that will help member states to strengthen their national security.
CHAIR HANSON: Well, you've touched on the Nuclear Harmonization and Standardization Initiative. But you kind of -- I love this initiative at Seibersdorf around nuclear security. So I kind
10 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com of want to jump in if I can a little bit into capacity building because, of course, what the Agency does and particularly the capabilities, the laboratory capabilities and the research and development capabilities at Seibersdorf outside of Vienna are so important. The education and training, the human resource development, et cetera, can you speak a little bit more about those efforts and share your perspectives about what are the gaps that you see that your organization is filling? How can member states contribute to help fill those gaps, either directly or through the agency itself, et cetera?
MS. EVRARD: Gaps I don't know, but for sure, I think we need to have a very, very comprehensive, you know, set of activities to be as efficient as possible in capacity building activities. That means that we need to work on different format of events. So it could be training courses, e-learning events, meetings, workshops.
So we have a lot of many different formats. We need to cover different areas from radioactive sources, waste management. I'm selecting these kind of topics because these are some very, very, very challenging topics for member states in particular for those who do not have a nuclear program.
CHAIR HANSON: Yes.
MS. EVRARD: You know, radioactive sources, waste management, of course, radiation protection in the medical field. Just selecting these kind of areas which are not as big I would say as nuclear safety. However, that may imply potential, you know, implications on safety in the public domain in addition.
11 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com So that's a different format, a wide range of activities.
And then I think we need to use different levels. So the international level, of course, this is where the Agency provide very strong support.
But the different levels are very, very important because this is something in addition to what we can do at the international level. And that usually is very efficient to have these two different levels. So that's when the member states can have the global picture and at the same time to have some specificities linked to their geographical region and then to implement what is, let's say, the best suitable to their needs.
And I think the most efficient, of course. This is how we can build this and that's where the U.S. is key for us because you provide support at the global level. You participate in many activities, conveying very strong messages. At the same time, you support regional initiatives. And the two types of activities, I think that's very, very efficient at the end of the day.
CHAIR HANSON: Thank you. I am really interested in the radioactive waste disposal and handling of that, right? As the DG, and I know your organization has supported it.
If we want to expand the peaceful uses of radioactive materials around the world for human health and development, for industry, for economic development and other kinds of things, there is this kind of back end of collecting those sources afterwards. And I know, as we both traveled around the world, that the issue of disuse sources has become an issue, even as we've seen some countries also
12 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com start to collect those, store them safety and securely, et cetera, which I think is a nice segue into Rays of Hope. And it's a major initiative for those of you who don't know on part of the IAEA to increase access to radiotherapy and nuclear medicine around the world for cancer care for underserved populations.
It's been a remarkable and worthwhile program. It's had a lot of impact since its inception in 2022 with the first wave countries.
Could you talk a little bit about it? And I think one of the things I'm really interested in with Rays of Hope.
And the United States is a big supporter for those of you who don't know. We've -- through the State Department and USAID and others contributed substantially to this. But from the regulatory perspective, my interest a little bit, and I suspect yours might be too is making sure that there's a regulatory framework.
There's an opportunity for inspection.
I think Commissioner Wright saw this a little bit when he was in Ghana and the inspectors at the hospital. He had those great pictures. Making sure that there's some regulatory -- even just kind of the basics in place for licensing and inspection and so forth. Talk to me about how --
what the, say, technical cooperation group or the nuclear applications group in the IAEA are intersecting with what you're doing and how this is kind of coming together.
MS. EVRARD: Rays of Hope is a very interesting initiative because it brings together different departments and in a very integrated manner. So it's led, of course, by the Department of
13 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com Technical Cooperation together with the Department of Nuclear Science and applications because of this focus on the medical needs. But safety and security experts are involved at the very beginning. So what we have changed with this initiative is now we as safety and security frameworks at the very, very beginning of the process and not at the end or too late or later in the process because we can identify with this very, very early involvement.
Where? Member states, many support for them to fill the gap because it's -- nobody wants to deliver, you know, medical equipment without the proper safety, you know, framework. But we can provide support. And this is where the Agency can help.
Once we have a good understanding of what is missing, then we can provide support and assistance so that the member states can know which the right level for them to receive the medical, you know -
- this medical equipment. So this is something, yes, rather new. It's a bit different from what we did before.
That means that we have this kind of project management approach. We serve all the departments working together for better identification of the needs, and then earlier involvement of the Agency, so that safety and security are not the showstopper (phonetic), you know, at some point.
But at the same time, of course, we need to ensure the right level of safety for the benefits of workers, of course, and patients.
You know, we cannot deliver this kind of medical equipment without the appropriate framework for safety. But we work earlier in the process
14 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com so that we can provide support as needed. So this is a new -- this is still, you know, in progress. But this is really the philosophy of this initiative together with including safety and security very early in the process.
CHAIR HANSON: No, I love that. In a way the regulatory and the institutional capability really almost has to be ahead of the curve in terms of the income, and lay that groundwork before a device actually lands or is installed in a country. I know that's been very helpful for me is I think about future travel, communicating with your staff, communicating with other parts of the agency about, okay, well, where are the -- the first wave countries. And what is helpful in terms of engagement of the United States? Where is the Agency looking at laying groundwork so that we can build on those efforts, hopefully augment those efforts to have a greater impact to facilitate those deployments?
MS. EVRARD: And as for these kind of initiatives, ground-up approaches is very important. We do not have the same requirements for mammography units, for instance, and the registering of the equipment, of course. So that means that we need to assess, you know, the situation in each member state from this priority list you just mentioned. And then to provide the support as needed for them to reach the right level before receiving this applicant.
CHAIR HANSON: Very good. Thank you. I want to talk about your career journey and your experiences in science technology, and engineering and math. Your career has spanned multiple fields, both
15 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com technical and administrative with protecting really people in the environment as the key theme.
You've said that you believe that developing a holistic approach that combines technical matters and public affairs is crucial for finding solutions to complex issues. I think you and I have spoken personally about this too on the sidelines of a few receptions here and there. And I've been so fascinated by it. But I wanted to see if you could just share a little bit more about that perspective and particularly how your career has progressed from early stages and what you were focused on into your time at ASN and now at the Agency and how the combination of those perspectives has evolved.
MS. EVRARD: That's an interesting point because you can bend professional pathways. From my side, so even at ASN, I had so many different positions. The first one was in the radiation protection field, so medical facilities more specifically.
The second one was with waste management
- safety, decommissioning, research reactor safety, type of facilities. And the last one when I was a Commissioner, of course, the scope was much broader but different. There's another level of involvement.
But of course, covering a wide range of topics and activities. So what I have learned from this is that you have always benefit from listening to other views. Just the medical field, regulating the medical field is completely different from, you know, regulating nuclear power plants.
But if you want to make the most robust decisions, you need
16 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com to listen to others. In particular, when they are different from yours.
So this is, to me, a key point that if you can listen to and including your decision making process different views, I'm sure that the decision is more robust.
And this is from the technical prospective together with this kind of political dimension, political in the worldwide sense, so policymakers, I would say. That nothing is only on technical matters.
So in the nuclear field, we know that.
So involvement is a key factor. Transparency, public communications is something very, very important. So having this kind of different dimensions, to me, that makes a lot of sense first to be able to make the most robust decision. And in fact, this is the only ultimate objective.
Now we're working at the Agency. I would say that there is another dimension which is geopolitical, you know. And this is another step, you know, in the how many dimensions you need to include when you make a decision or when you work on a daily basis. So technical, this kind of policymaking
- approach, together with geopolitical, I think this is now a third dimension. I'm learning, you know, in Vienna now.
CHAIR HANSON: No small thing, this geopolitics.
MS. EVRARD: Not really.
(Simultaneous speaking.)
CHAIR HANSON: Well, since that's such an easy topic, why don't we see what we've got here on the iPad. And I am going to try
17 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com and update this. And unfortunately, I have to use my glasses. So excuse me just a second.
So here's the first question. I think this is a good one.
While the IAEA issues recommendations and the NRC enforces rules and requirements, how can the global nuclear market flourish without robust global standards? And what role do you think the IAEA should establish or play, excuse me, in establishing these standards?
MS. EVRARD: I think this is linked to this core activity I mentioned, how to develop a safety so this has been the case now for decades because this is part of the motive of the Agency. The challenge now is how we can develop safety standards.
Do we need more standards or do we need to revise some standards? I think this is first of all one of -- we need to decide whether we need more standards, more details, you know, more detailed documents or if we need to update to a new standard. And for this, this is not only with the certified services of the Agency.
This is something that needs to be decided together with member states because these standards, they are developed for member states, only for member states. This is not for our own use. And that means that we need to find some ways to interact with member states so that we can collect your expectations, how we can, you know, develop additional standards on it.
And what is very important is that we need to have -- to succeed in reaching a consensus because safety standards are developed based on the consensus support. That means that if member states do
18 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com not agree on the seminal priorities, that's, of course, something we need to manage and we need to handle. So we can proceed with a common understanding of our priorities. And that's what gives, you know, this robustness to safety standards because they're recognized by all member states. But this is a positive aspect. But --
CHAIR HANSON: Yes.
MS. EVRARD: -- on the other side, of course we need to build consensus and with so many member states. Sometimes, of course, it's a challenge. But to me, having this same process which has proved to be efficient including from other partners.
This is something we need to continue now to adapt our ways of working and how to revise or develop new standards, for instance, for SMRs. But for the time being, we have, you know, work on this and after review of applications of applicability of safety standards to conclude that we could manage with the existing set of safety standards while developing a few additional guidance documents. This is something ongoing, and that will be in addition to the safety standards.
CHAIR HANSON: Of course, the committee on safety standards has been really critical, I think, in developing some of these things.
And yet we also recognize the unique twists or approaches that each country has to regulating, to evaluating licenses, et cetera that while there are these high level standards, there are also going to be some regional and country specific differences. What we're seeing I think in our collaboration with Canada and now with the UK has been the real desire to have that kind of standardized design. And for other
19 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com countries to get in and look at the specific reviews and how they might be able to take credit, of course, I'm previewing our technology session on Thursday morning yet again on this topic about not -- to minimize the amount of kind of reinventing the wheel. But in a way, that standardized design on the part of vendors is the other part of that equation.
MS. EVRARD: That's where, you know, this initiative has two tracks. So this new initiative launched by the DG in 2022 has two tracks, one on the industry matters. And so with this standardization objective and then one of the regulatory matters. And this is on this one that, of course, the Department of Nuclear Safety and Security is involved.
With this, what you mentioned, avoiding duplication and then maybe in addition learning from others and the leveraging, lessons learned from other regulators so that we can improve or strengthen the work that can be done together with different regulators so that we can move forward in a more efficient manner. So that's avoiding duplication while being more efficient. And of course, mentoring the sovereignty of each member states with regard to safety.
CHAIR HANSON: Yeah, if I think about that, the most tangible result of the NHSI as it's called, the Nuclear Harmonization and Standardization Initiative. I think it's that avoiding that duplication and that redundancy I think could be one of the most impactful things. But is there anything you wanted to -- I don't want to say that's the most impactful.
20 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com MS. EVRARD: I think it has been a bit challenging to put together all regulators with different views and different needs.
CHAIR HANSON: We're a wily bunch.
MS. EVRARD: Because, in fact, there are, you know, very wide range of expectations. So from member states who would like to use SMRs for their domestic needs. But without any existing, you know, regulatory framework.
While on the other side, there are, of course, member states with an extensive experience on the nuclear regulatory matters. So having all these regulators and then finding a way to develop this scope version has been challenging at the very beginning. This is something we need to continue to work on.
Regarding the two tracks, I would like to mention there are, of course, coordination mechanisms. So that's, you know, what is being done by this induced track is not completely, you know, disconnected from what we are doing on the regulator track. Because at some point and not too late in the process we should have some well-coordinated, you know, mechanisms.
It would be preliminary meeting in October, so this year.
And that will be a good opportunity to present, you know, the progress made over the last two years. And then to prepare for the next steps because that will be the very first step after two years. But we are preparing the next steps so that we can, of course, continue developing this scope version of SMRs.
CHAIR HANSON: I've got another question here. I think
21 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com this is a good one. The U.S. NRC places a priority on resident inspectors. Not just the NRC by the way but other countries do too.
I was in Spain a couple of weeks ago and got to meet their resident inspectors. However, many other nuclear regulators implement their mission without regular onsite safety inspections.
So how are they different and successful in implementing their mission? Does the Agency have a view on this? Is there --
talking about kind of standardization and guidance and capacity building and so forth, I'd love to get your thoughts.
MS. EVRARD: Yes. So I remember this topic when I was, you know, in France and discussion with the U.S. In France, you know, we do not have any resident inspectors. But no, having -- taking a step back, I think we need to think of it in a more holistic manner.
What I mean is so it's not only a resident inspector on it.
It's how this is, you know, implemented together with the other, you know, provisions for inspection. So I will say that as in this it makes sense, you know, and because of the specific need of the member states.
So first of all, there is, of course, no objections at the level of the agency accepts as they come on. It's more about how each member state implements what it considers as the most appropriate ways for inspection could be. Not a new resident inspector, but how often you rotate, you know, your inspectors responsible for a given site.
Even if they're not resident inspectors, if you have for ten years the same, you know, team of inspectors inspecting the same
22 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com facility, you can have something, you know, not as a resident inspector.
But you may have some practices, you know, that this kind of new or fresh eyes approach that works for a while but not for ten years. So I think it's more each regulator, you know, does manage its capacity to conduct inspections to keep this objectivity and this fresh eyes.
So again, that applies to resident inspectors and to inspectors in general. And considering the national scheme for inspections, to me, that's very important. And you cannot apply the same organization to the U.S. and to another member states with, let's say, 100 problems per person, of course. That's completely different.
CHAIR HANSON: Thank you. That's fascinating. I love it.
I'm going to finish up, I think, with, I think, an interesting but slightly provocative question maybe for both of us. And it's with respect to the war in Ukraine. Would a new multi-national treaty similar to say, the nuclear non-proliferation treaty that prohibits military attacks on or in or from nuclear power plants by signatories help prevent or limit the types of issues we're seeing now in Ukraine?
We've seen the Director General. He has the seven principles and the five pillars in a way that kind of set those ethical and policy norms for the safe operation of a nuclear power plant in a conflict zone. But would a more formal mechanism like a standalone treaty contribute to that overall norm setting do you think?
MS. EVRARD: So this is a question we have been receiving now since the beginning of the war. So the question is whether with a legally binding instrument, I'd say, what we are experiencing at the
23 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com project would have been avoided on it.
CHAIR HANSON: We've seen a lot of other norms in international --
MS. EVRARD: Yes.
CHAIR HANSON: -- treaties violated in Ukraine --
MS. EVRARD: Exactly.
CHAIR HANSON: -- as well.
MS. EVRARD: In addition, there is already a resolution adopted by the Board of Governors of the Agency.
CHAIR HANSON: Yes.
MS. EVRARD: That states that any military activities should, you know, be avoided or prevented at a nuclear power plant. So there is already some -- there are already some provisions on this. Of course, strengthening the international framework, considering this kind of very unprecedented, you know, situation could bring some value, added value. Would it be enough to avoid this kind of situation? That is another story, I think.
Because in Ukraine, there are other treaties, international law, international legal provisions. So it's how we can manage. From this side, I would say that -- so at the Agency, our top priority is to prevent an accident, a nuclear accident.
So this is very, let's say, restrictive. This is really our top priority. That's why we are deploying so many, you know, rotations in Ukraine. We are delivering equipment from nuclear safety and security.
24 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1716 14th STREET, N.W., SUITE 200 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20009-4309 www.nealrgross.com This legal aspect at some point will have to be, you know, at rest. Is it the right moment? I don't know. But I know that there are, you know, some legal officials working on it, at least, you know, affecting what could have been done for this.
CHAIR HANSON: Thank you for that perspective. It is a little bit of a conundrum and there are multiple sides of this. And sometimes it can be useful to have the international legal norms or the ethical norms in place, even if they're not fully effective in preventing a tragedy like this. And I know that's part of the discussion as well.
MS. EVRARD: Some people, you know, consider that could be discussed further once the war is over. And that's probably better to address this topic now.
CHAIR HANSON: Thank you. We've reached the end of our time. I want to thank you very, very much. It's been a great pleasure to have you here at the RIC. You said this is your first RIC.
So I think welcome. And I'm so pleased you're here. And I appreciate very much the conversation. And it's a great privilege and honor for me and the rest of the NRC to participate and support and occasionally cajole the Agency and all of you. I just wanted to just ask you if you've got any final thoughts you'd like to share. Any final words of wisdom for us at your first RIC?
MS. EVRARD: Thank you for this conversation. I think it has covered a wide range of topics from my personal experience. So it's always a pleasure to have this kind of opportunity to interact
25 with such a wide audience and interesting questions. So thank you so much to all of you. Thank you to you, of course, Chris.
(Applause.)
CHAIR HANSON: Thank you so much for a very interesting conversation. So this concludes our plenary program for today. We'll be adjourning for lunch.
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(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the record at 12:02 p.m.)
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