ML22230A119

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Tran-M790801: Public Meeting Continuation of Discussion of Issues in Restart of TMI-1
ML22230A119
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Issue date: 08/01/1979
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RETURN TO SECRETARIAT RECORDS NUCLEAR REGULATORY COM M ISSION IN THE MATTER OF:

PUBLIC MEETING CONTINUATION OF DISCUSSION OF ISSUES IN RESTART OF TMI-1 Piece - Washington, D. C.

Octe -

Wednesday, 1 Au g us t 1 9 7 9 ACE - FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.

Official Reporters 444 North Capitol Street Washington, D.C. 20001 NATIONWIDE CO VERA Ge

  • DAil Y Pages 1 -

5 0 Telephone:

(202) 347-3700

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DISCLAI:MER This is an unofficial transcript 0£ a meeting of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission held on Wednesday, 7 August 1979 in the Commissions's offices at 1717 H Street, N. W., Washington, D. C.

The meeting was open to public attendance and observation.

This transcript has not been reviewed, corrected, or edited, and_ it may contain inaccurac:i..es.

The transcript is intended solely for general informational purposes.

As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of the formal or informal record of decision of the matters discussed.

Expressions of opinion in this transcript do not necessarily reflect final determinations or beliefs.

No pleading or other paper may be filed with the Commission in any proceeding as the result of or addressed to any statement or argument contained herein, except as the Commission may authorize.

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91 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Ace--eral Reporters, 24 Inc.

25 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

.NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION PUBLIC MEETING CONTINUATION OF DISCUSSION OF ISSUES IN RESTART OF TMI-1 Room 1130 1717 H Street, N. W.

Washington, D. C.

Wednesday, 1 August 1979 The Commission met, pursuant to notice, at 3:25 p.m.

BEFORE:

DR. JOSEPH M. HENDRIE, Ch.airman

. VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner RICHARDT. KENNEDY, Commissioner PETER A. BRADFORD, Commissioner JOHN F. AHEARNE, Commissioner PRESENT:

L. Bickwit and S. Ostrach.

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P R O C E E D I N G S 2

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

The TMI-1 order -- I see that --

3 oh dear 4

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Where were we before the memo?

5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

We had --

6 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

I don't know what we voted 7

before, 8

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Let I s see, did we have a recast?

9 I don't remember the voting on that.

10 11 12 Option 2. 45, Peter.

Let me see.

Help me remember.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

We only had two votes for 13 that.

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25 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

The vote was 2 for Option 1, 1 for Option 2, and 2 for Option 3.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Oh, geez, wait a minute -- steady now.

This is the discovery issue.

Give me just a second while I collect myself slightly.

All right.

This is now Option 2, with a slightly revised last sentence, page 4 of the memo.

Have I located the right place?

Congratulations, Hendrie, you've done it again.

Now, I see that you're proposed new last sentence removes the word II appropriate, 11 which probably then, as I think

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you are aware, makes it ineligible to be a Class A government 2

document or something, but --

3 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

I'll settle for Class B if 4

we can get it into government documents, 5

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10 l l 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Now, let's see -- the voting now stands that you and John want to do that.

COMl_\\USSIONER BRADFORD:

I had a memo from Victor this morning with the word "okay" written on it, which I forgot to bring in.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

After learning about a*ll the commitments, Victor has made the.various committees this morn-ing.

I think we ought t~ see it in writing, Peter.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

I did, Is that the memo?

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

No, I just hand these things to -my secretary.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Could you let him see your initials before you sent them to me?

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Did you give him that -- the counsel's July 30th VOICE:

I think it has it all there.

(Laughter,)

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Good.

C..ce-Federal Reporters, Inc.

25 I just don't want him to be defenseless here.

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25 Okay.

You would join them.on an amended Option 2 for discovery.

I must not have been very clear -- oh, yeah, I was, too.

I hadn't voted myself.

All right.

Majority accruing to Option 2, with the last sentence as amended, Counsel, take note.

The other item, which Peter's note said he decided he wanted to slide down from Option 1 to Option 3 on the immediate effectiveness issue, All right.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

I must say I don't have any great difficulty with that option on the basic presumption, which I assume goes with it, that in fact this being a licens~

ing agency, our basic presumption is that, in fact, this plant will be licensable, our job being to find out the conditions under which the license will be renewed or the plant allowed to start up.

With that assumption, I don't have any trouble with Option 3.

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

I'm not sure I would go along with that.

CGMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

You don't start with that assumption; is that what you're saying?

COMI-USSIONER AHEARNE:

I think you have embedded in there a working de*fini tion of this agency,

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25 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

All I know is what the Atomic Energy Act says.

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

What does the Act say?

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

It says that we should issue licenses under certain conditions.

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

So you review applications to see whether they meet the requirements?

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Exactly.

The assumption is that if they don't, they will, COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Where does that come from?

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Logic.

If a man spends a billion dollars to build something on the assumption that it will h~ve to pay out through opera-tion, and a licensing agency comes along and says, "You' re going to have to paint the doors green, instead of blue.

11 It is not to be presumed by a reasonable man, I think, that the guy will say, "The hell with you.

I'm not going to paint my doors blue.

I'm going to leave them the way they are."

COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:

At least he has that option.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Well, of course he does.

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

The agency may say that you made a mistake.

You shouldn't have spent the billion dollars.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Not if the man has spent'. the billion dollars in accordance with the agency's regulations and rules, as testified to by its previous issuance of a

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license when that very question was litigated.

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

You seem to be going beyond your earlier remarks, but I don't want to take that up now.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Oh, I don't think so.

Let me reiterate my earlier remarks.

My earlier remark is I have no 6

objection to what happened or difficulty with Option 3 if, as 7

it seems to, it rests upon the assumption, long held by this 8

agency, that its job is to define any conditions for the 9

operation of the plant, not whether there shall be one or 10 whether it shall operate, only the conditions under which it 11 12

  • 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 shall.

And if that is the presumption, then I don't have any t~ouble.

But if it is not, ~hen we have a different kind of presumption here as to our function as a body in the 1icens-ing process, which I think to be inconsistent with that defined by the Atomic Energy Act.

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Our job isn't to issue licenses.

It's to protect the public health and safety.

The people need certain health and safety standards being set out, and that they ought to be in place.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Your assumption alwasy being that, in fact, they will.

It is for you to decide what they are and call upon them to do it.

Your assumption is not whethe 24 or not they should operate the plant, but only the conditions ce-Federal Reporters, Inc.

25 under which they should.

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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

I d6nit see -- if I can 2

separate them; if they meet the conditions, they get to operate 3

the plant.

If the don't, they don't get to operate the plant.

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correct.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

That means that you start presumption that a plant will operate.

That I s all I'm CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Or can be made to be --

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Operable.

That's right.

Or can' be put in a condition for operation; that's CHAIRM:AN HENDRIE:

I think that underlies --

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

If that is the underlying 13 presumption of Opti.on 3, then I would support it_,

If.it is not, 14 I think it's important that we know that so that we know the 15 conditions under which we're choosing our options.

16 17 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

As a latecomer to Option 3 --

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

It is for that reason that I 18 am seeking your guidance, having been left abandoned.

19 (Laughter.)

20 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

I'm not feeling abandoned, 21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

I was pretty upset, because I was 22 planning to go all around town saying that Kennedy and Bradford 23 had voted me down again, 24 COM.MISSIONER AHEARNE:

You joined them, Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.

25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Now, that was a minor difference.

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(Laughter.)

COM._MISSIONER AHEARNE:

But one you could surmount.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

I was going to slide away from 4

something myself, so I wasn't left in that position anyway.

Sorry, Peter.

Go ahead.

6 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

I got to Option 3 by a slight-7 ly different route.

I was -- as I think you were -- troubled s

by the problem that we seemed to be telling the Licensee they 1:

9 ii had to undertake these actions or else be in violation of the I i l O I law.

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  • i 1 11 Option 3, it seems to me, doesn't do that.

Option 3 i

tells them they have to take these actions if they want to restart the plant.

If the process, whatever"it turns out to 14 be, says the plant is restartable, they won't be in violation 15 of any NRC order if they don't, but they also won't be able to 16 restart the plant.

17 I'm comfortable with that, because it removes the 18 *: coercive element that I saw in Option 2, And I don't think one I

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20 1 into Option 3 if you have in mind the certainty of an eventual 21 restart.

It's the Licensee's choice whether or not to actually 22 undertake the modifications under Option 3, The incentive to 23 \\i do it is that he be permitted to start sooner, but he isn't I

25 being compelled by this agency*to make investments against his own better judgment, which might one day turn out to be wasted.

j 1 8 10 CHAIR!v'.LAN HENDRIE:

Could I ask about the third option 2

language?

3 I 1 11 ask the drafters.

Take the first sentence.* This 4

appears twice in here, but let me take the first sentence.

It 5

says, "Those long-term actions,which the Commission has required 6

in immediate effectiveness orders for other Licensees, in this 7

case are to be performed as__promptly as practicable."

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24 And then you have it as a condition to restart.

Now, does that mean the long-term actions had'to be completed before a new restart can be contemplated?

MR.,BICKWIT:

No, it does not mean that.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

It means that the Licensee COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Excuse me.

It does not?

MR. BICKWIT:

It does not.

COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

Because of the Board discre-tion that's built in?

MR. BICKWIT:

Yes.

The idea is that the licensing must be proceeded as promptly as practicable.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

If the performed -- not "proceeding,"* it says "performed" -- "performed" is a verb whic I think implies that something has been done -- if you are performing, it is ongoing; if you are to perform, you are to do it, If you have performed,you've done it_-- I think.

MR. BICKWIT:

I think it's ambiguous.

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25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

"Pe-rformed as promptly as

j 1 9 11 practicable" is the action which is to have been demonstrated 2

by the Licensee for restart.

In fact, it's conceivable that 3

"promptly as practicable" means that he won't even have started 4

up some long-term action.

6 anything.

71 81 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Then he won't have performed (3:40 p.m.; Commissioner Bradford has left.)

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

I think my point gets made by the I

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COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Counselor, you can fix that MR. BICKWIT:

I have no problem with the proceeding.

CHAIRMAN.HENDRIE:

The fact that there's some diffi-14 culty understanding what it means,on the one hand, and not 15 another -- that people though its meaning was relieved by 16 sentences further down the line suggests that some kind of 17 recasting would be helpful.

18 It appears once more down about -- eight, nine lines 19 down.

It's the same structure of language twice.

20 After I read it the third time, I thought I knew what 21 you meant, but it did seem to me to be subject a good deal 22 of -- well, misinterpretation several interpretations.

23 l And if we clearly understand that --

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24 (3:41 p.m.; Commission Bradford has returned.)

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

It is important that we clearly

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j 1 10 12 understand it.

I think it's clearly important that all the re-2 cipients of the order understand it.

3 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

If it's written so that all of 4 I us understand it --

SI' COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Then hopefully they would --

61 right.

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15 16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

There's at least a chance, Now, subject to a little redrafting there, to make the meaning clear, Peter avows that he finds this option to be somewhat superior, know

3.

I take it, therefore, John --

CO~-MISSIONER AHEARNE:

It's been voted on before.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

You said it w-as okay, *and I didn't quite know how to count your vote between Options 2 and COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

If you recall, when it got 17 !: down to the fact that it was then between 1 and 3, I voted for

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3.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Yes, you may have.

I think I 20 ii 1, re fused to count in order to avoid it.

'I 11 21 22 All right.

I will count you.as there.

And I guess that would stand as the majority position.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Could I understand.then, from 24 the majority, what it is that the visualize the order to mean?

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25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

In this regard -- let's see if I

jl 11 13 can say it --

2 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

As to our posture, vis-a-vis 3

the Licensee, and the proceeding, I just want to know, so I 4

know how to conduct myself appropriately.

I don't want to foul 5

up the hearings by asking the wrong questions, so I need to 6

know what it is we visualize our posture to be, vis-a-vis, A, 7

the hearing and, B, the Licensee, What does it mean?

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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

You mean more than just the ii 9

particular provisions here in Option 3?

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COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

What is the underlying pre-1 '

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  • ' !i sumption here? It is now a settled issue.

I'm just trying to

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find out what it is now I am to assume.

  • CO:tv1MISSIONER AHEARNE:

Si'nce OGC drafted it and 14 explained it the other day, I'm sure they can do it again today.

15 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

You don't know.

16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

I would prefer, since you made 17 the point, Dick, that you want to be very careful that it is the "1811. correct legal construction;as regards to the hearing, let the

!9 i record repeat itself.

They can do again today as they did i

20 i yesterday.

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21 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Very good.

22 MR. BICKWIT:

The understanding would be that the Licensee wou*ld be told, effective immediately that he must i

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  • perform these actions.

He must be proceeding as promptly as

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25 practicable on these actions if he wants to restart his plant if

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14 at the.time the plant is ready to go up, in the judgment of the Commission, on the basis of short-term actions having been completed.--

COMMISSIONER KENNE.DY:

Excuse me,. I want to be sure 5

-- does the Cowmission have any presumption as to the possibil-6 i ty that the plant may or may not come up?

Or is that a 7

fundamental issue before the Commission -- that is, whether, 8

these issues not withstanding, the plant may not come up?

Is 9

that a fundamental question?

10 11 12 MR. BICKWI'I'~

It is an issue in the hearing:

Whether the actions prescribed are necessary and sufficient.

There is a presumption only to the extent that the Commission would be 13 indicating that these actions were its best guess as to what 14 was required to resume operation at this time.

15 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Which, I guess, is the normal 16 course.

That I s about what it always says, doesn't it?

Or does 17 it?

18 19 MR. BICKWIT:

Yes, That is normal.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

It always reserves to itself 20 the essential right to say that, whereas yesterday all these.1.

21 things were sufficient to operate a plant, today we find, for 22 good and sufficient reasons, that these two are needed, We can 23 always do that.

24 So you're saying that in that context that this is the Ace-eoeral Reporters, Inc.

25 view.

jl 13 lS MR. BICKWIT:

But this is the Commission's best guess 2

at this point, 1 But it has asked the Board to consider, as an 3

issue in the hearing, whether these actions are necessary and 4

sufficient.

5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY :.

Let's see.

You 're talking 6

now about the long-term activities, specifically those who are 7

required of other B&W Licensees to be -- in effect, a commitment 8

to those long-term actions was required for continued operation.

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25 MR. BICKWIT:

I was about to get there, That 1 s with respect to those long-term actions, that they must be performed as promptly as practicable, they must be proceeding to be performed as pr_omptly as pr,acticable as a condition for restart.

With respect*to actions which have not now been ordered, effective immediately; with respect to the other plants, the Commission is saying that if those actions are ordered, then the Commission will proceed in the same way with respect to this plant, not by ordering that the actions be done effective immediately, but by specifying that the actions must be in the course of being performed as promptly as practicable as a condition of restart, with the proviso that the Board may change these actions or the Commission may change those actions before a final decision is reached.

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7 11 16 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Therefore, you are saying what you'have said so far seems to me to say more or less what I said in the beginning, that is, given a set of specific and concrete steps agreeable to the Commission and its board, exactly as in a licensing proceeding, it is assumed and can be assumed by a potential licensee, or in this case a licensee, that he will be authorized to operate this plant.

MR.. BICKWIT:

I wouldn't go that far.

COWllSSIONER GILINSKY:

You're talking about a special class of requirements here.

COl\\1MISSIONER KENNEDY:

There are a,:cJ.ass of things.

12 I That I s special insofar as a.whole class of plants are concerned t!

13 B&W plants.

14 15 16 18 COMMISSIONER GI LINSKY:

.Right.

COMMISSIONER*KENNEDY:

Now, there are also some specific ones that are site-specific, as there* would be in most cases.

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

But they're not the subject 19 I of what we're discussing, option one, two and three.

ii 20 !i CO.MMISSIONER KENNEDY:

I realize that.

It I s that

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conglomerate of actions.

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COlf.1.MISSIONER GI LINSKY:

You I re in a sense shifting

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Yes.

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1 I, COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

That's the next i tern?

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17 COtil1ISSIONER GILINSKY:

Or the one beyond _that.

It seems to me that very special circumstances apply to the actions that have been required of other plants.

COMMISSIONE.R KENNEDY:

And would be, presumably, here.

COI:vlMISSIONER GILINSKY:

In effect, what we' re saying or would be saying in an order is that the board, in deciding on operations, will also take into account the progress on c:

these long-term items, given the amount of time that's

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involved.

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ii COMl1ISSIONER KENNEDY:

Right.

But underlying that is the assumption that if all those things are satisfactory, the plant will operate.

That's what I'm saying.* There is not a presumption COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

All other things being equal.

CO.MMISSLONE.R KENNEDY:

There is not a presumption that, all this notwithstanding, the question of whether the plant shall ever operate remains a question.

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

All other things being

  • satisfactory.

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All other what things?

COMJ\\USSIONER GILINSKY:

Now we' re getting to the whole range of is$~es that apply especially to this plant.

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COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

All right, then.

In that

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ii 5 ii 18 case, let me point out that I would have to go back and say I do not wholly agree with Peter's view respecting it.

But I think that if one takes that posture and he says, well, in fact you are back in a somewhat modified, but not very much modified, coercive situation -- okay, I understand it.

I 11 6 !i just wanted to be sure I understood it.

I think I understand 7

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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Well, what you're doing is coupling the reopening of the plant with several of these long-term items.

In other words, you don't have to do them, but it means that even if other things are satisfied --

COMl".lISSIONER KENNEDY:

You don't have to do them, but eve~ if y9u do.it doesn't mean that you ge~-eo operate the plant.

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Because this doesn't cover all the issues.

CHAIRMJ>._N HENDRIE:

Another way to come at it is to back off and be a little more general.

I think what Dick is getting at is the following.

There are a set of things to be done of various kinds, some procedural, some hardware, training; what have you.

We have specified in this order some of these things, some short-term and some long-term.

We propose to have a board hold a hearing on the proposition of how the applicant proposes to deal with these things, whether they are indeed a necessary and sufficient set of conditions in toto.

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19 I think what Dick's saying is, considering that set of things in toto, once the board has concluded that they're in satisfactory shape and has so said to the Commission, and the Commission says, yes, Item 1 is okay, Item 2 is okay, et cetera, down through the list, then in fact the plant can restart.

Beyond that, that there is not beyond that some further underlying proposition that, well, it may be okay, but what the hell, should it operate.

And I think, indeed, the structure of the Atomic Energy Act is CO.MMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Very simply put, that is my proposition.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

That when the appropriate condi-tions for operation are met, then the licenses shall issue or suspension --

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

There are two separate cases;

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There I s one case that says we know everything that we' re going i'

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to require, but we don't want to put some of them down.

I 19 I COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Excuse me.

I've got to run.

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(At 3: 50 p.m., Commissioner Kennedy left the room.)

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'I I, COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

It simply says, here are the things we're doing right now, we're not sure it's complete.

Now, I'm not sure whether you're buying that A might be the case instead of B.

I 1 d have trouble with A.

B, I think it's entirely possible there may be others.

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ii 20 thought that was the standard in general licensing hearings, thatmen you first go out you say, as far as you know, here is the list of requirements.

There may be others.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

My intention is that if we can think of anything that we believe ought to be covered in the case of TMI Unit 1 in this hearing, examined in the context of this hearing, we'll put it down here.

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Well, we haven't even gotten yet to the detailed discussion.

We had a preliminary discus-sion on what those detailed things were.

days in the procedures.

Then we've spent CHAIR.Iv.LAN HENDRIE:

Yeah, I know.

But to go on and try to answer 'the proposition, I would hope that we* put down everything that we think is appropriate to be considered in the hearing in the order.

Now, if we could manag~ it, it would be my view to see if we couldn't make that in fact an inclusive list, and say, those are the issues to be considered.

If it's the judgment that in fact the question of, are this set of things a sufficient set, is to be considered, why, so be it.

That at least is the thrust which the counsel's office is taking at the moment.

The problem that Dick was raising was, I guess, to be reassured that we agree that there is in principle.some I

aggregate of actions which, if properly taken, and other things!

mte 6 21 being equal, lead to a restoration of the license for the 2

Commission to operate.

And it seems to me that indeed is the 11 3 ;;

case. It remains to be seen how some of the requirements work I

II 4

1 out, and indeed, it is not out of the question that some 5

6 7

8 requirements might be fairly onerous and the licensee would have to decide whether he would want to do them.

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Once you talk about specify-ing the issues, that's one thing.

I have a feeling Dick is 9 ii talking about requirements.

ii I don 1 t think we 1 re in a position 10 1 1

to do that.

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11 CHAI,.RMAN HENDRIE:

I didn't hear him to say that 12 13 14 15 16

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1 Ii 20 I ii 21 ii only those things mentioned in the order were to be considered in the hearing.

I don't know that he '.s reached that point, and I don't want to say any more on behalf of him.

He can speak very well for himself.

But I didn't hear him going into that problem.

And what I suggest we do here is to ask ourselves, since a majority, however fragile, has gathered about option three of the immediate effectiveness, do we understand it.

I think we do.

And Len* and Steve will fix my little problem with appropriate language up there.

And why don't we drive

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MR. BICKWIT:

I guess, Mr. Chairman, I ought to raise one]additional difficulty that occurred to me after draf:ting 25 !

I this.

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22 CHAIRI'IJ..A.N HENDRIE:

I'm sure glad of that, because we were running down on difficulties.

I was wondering how I was going to keep you all amused here.

MR. BICKW'IT:

Previous discussions have indicated that you would like to see short-term actions separated from the long-term actions at the hearing to the extent feasible, and a decision made on restart on the basis of whether the 8

11 short-term actions have been accomplished.

ii In other words, y ii ii 10 !I that the board would reach a partial initial decision on the que_stion, and then the Commission would address the matter.

If you're making these actions a condition to restart --

cor,'IMISSIONER AHEARNE:

It's not the actions; it's

  • 1_3 !:

the prO't::eedings on them.

1! i i4 I MR. BICKWIT:

Yes.

If you're making proceeding on 15 16 these actions a condition to restart, and you want the board to consider whether these actions are appropriate prior to I

your decision on restart, then you're going to have to dispense:

i 18 \\ with the notion of a partial initial decision based only on i

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You can either abandon this option as a result of that consideration or you can do one of two other thing.s: you can abandon the notion of a partial initial decision or you can say that, rather than a condition to restart, the perfor-mance of these actions shall be a condition to continued operation.

the

mte 8 23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

I think what you're stuck on, 2

Len, is evaluation of the adequacy of actions, long-term 3,1 actions, as opposed to at least what I was concerned with, the

,I 11 4,i evaluation, had the licensee begun to take action.

And at 5

6 7

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14.

15 16 17 18 least for myself, I would have no problem.

The question the board is addressi~g is whether the licensee had been addressingl i

those actions as rapidly as practicable, without addressing forl th.at initial decision whether all of those actions were the ones they had to have taken.

MR. OSTRACH:

In other words, you're suggesting, Commissioner, that at the time that it issues its partial initial decision on the restart question, the board decides

.whether the licensee is beginning to initiate the long-term actions the staff had proposed?

COM1'1ISSIONER AHEARNE:

That ' s right.

CHAifillAN HENDRIE:

Does tha~.configuration have to be phrased here in terms of a condition to restart?

Could it simply be part of the order that the long-term actions be 19 I performed as promptly as possible?

20 21 22,i It 23 1!

11 II MR. BICKWIT:

That's a provision of the order. We're back in option -- which one was it? -- two, which Cdrhmissioner Bradford found objectionable, because you were ordering, effective irnrnedia tely, somebody to do something under the law..

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Okay.

That would be equivalent in 2s I I I I!

your view, then, to ai immediate effectiveness contingency.

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mte 9 2

6 7

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24 see.

MR. BICKWIT:

I think your concept is a perfectly viable one and perhaps a concept the Commission wants to vote on.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

I must say, I would be very unhappy to give up the partial decision, because it seems to me worth searching for all reasonable ways to come to a decision.

MR. BICKWIT:

Well, you would have, as your partial 10 initial decision, not only a decision on the short-term I

11 actions, but also whether these actions were being performed 12 as promptly as practical, without regard to whether these were 13 i4 15 16 the correct actions.

So you would still have a partial initial decision coming up.

CHAIR.MJ._N HENDRIE:

How would you prove you'd done a thing as promptly as practical?

i 17 !

18 MR. BICKWIT:

How would you go about it? It seems to:

me you would show a work schedule.

It would then be judgment 19 II as to whether--

ii I.

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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Would it differ from the work schedule you would prepare if you were ordered to do the actions, to take the actions immediately?

MR. BICKWIT:

The work schedule would be irrelevant I'

24!:

Ace-Feceral Reoorters, Inc.

in that case.

25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

And at some stage don't. we

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MR. BICKWIT:

I'm not sure I understand that.

CHAIRlv.lAN HENDRIE:

If we describe in detail what is necessary to do it as practicable and as rapidly as possible, aren't we actually given directions to the licensees 1

and to the board:

Now, if the licensee does this, then that's satisfied?

COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

Which is all right if we know enough to do it.

CHAIR.MAN HENDRIE:

You mean, you wouldn't have that discussion arid you'd say, well, just let people figure out what that means?

What I'm saying is, the more I think about it, the less a distinction I can see between as pr9mptly as practicable and immediately effective.

15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Well, one difference is, at I

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least in option two, it would be a violation of the order.

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17 !l CHAIR.MAN HENDRIE:

What I'm afraid is, I've got no ii 18 ii chance of proving that I acted as promptly as practicable unless 1,

11 :,

19 Ii I start working away the day the order is issued.

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20 ti COM1--1ISSIONER ft.HEARNE:

Let me give you the two Ii 21 \\\\

boundary cases.

Clearly, if it starts immediately, as soon as 22 !\\

the order is issued, then that is as promptly -- that certainly Ii 23 ji meets the test.

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I think clearly if he hasn't started to do a single I

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mte 11 26 until the board reaches its conclusion --

2 CHAI.RMAN HENDRIE:

Prelimi.nary decision.

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Preliminary decision.

He 4

says, that's when I'm first going to start thinking about it; 5

then clearly I think the board would be entirely reasonable to 6

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say, that is not as promptly as practicable.

Those are the two boundary conditions.

CHA:I.RMAN HENDRIE:

Good.

And what I ask you is:

For anything short of an immediate start on all of the long-term actions, at least to the extent the staff is able to enumerate them, how, if I were a licensee, would I show that I've acted i

as promptly as practicable?

I hadn't started on the first day, 1

okay.

How then do I establish promptness?

That*~s, in fact, in option three, under your third option, have you achieved anything except a complication of language, or is it in effect the immediately effective, that is, option two?

If it is and we all thought that, why, then we'd be better to use the option two.

COJ\\-1.MISSIONER BRADFORD:

The difference is that you're not in violation of anything under option three.

You've' chosen to go a middle course.

CHAIRil'~.N HENDRIE:

Okay.

That is an important difference.

You may in fact have to start and do it at pre-cisely the same rate in order to be confident that you can make the case with the licensing board that you've acted as I

I

mte 12 27 promptly as practicable. Since I suppose the licensee wil'l 2

1 want to restart the plant, he will feel he doesn't have much 3 1 option but to do that.

11 4 \\\\

But in case he decided not to do that, he would not sl be in:violation.

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COMJ:IUSSIONER BRADFORD:

That's right.

COll'.IMISSIONER GILINS:KY:

Other things or other concerns having been satisfied.

CH~IRMAN HENDRIE:

But it seems to me that what you were looking for was not only that relief from being in violation of an order, but other people, it seemed to me, were also looking for a little flexibility for the licensee to 13 \\

judge whether ii's likely to be so many months or so many

  • 1'4 II months, it's reasonable to wait two months and see how. this 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 develops with other plants.

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Maybe the righb*words are "reasonable progress;" in order for the board to be making its decision, to take into account reasonable progress.

MR. BICKWIT:

I think that would be useful.

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

That has been required for the licensees.

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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

From my reading, that would be a very substantial help and in fact would.relieve the kind of grump that I've just been carrying on.

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ii ii MR. BICKWIT:

As we had drafted it, in the final

II I

28 sentence there was some softening language.

We did not intend 2 1 1

to be bounded to a tight, promptly as practicable standard.

ii 3

1i And this would be consistent with that, Joe.

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20 21 22 23 24 25 29 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Do you want to try to advance one?

Is it that my eyes grow old and dim, or is there a distinct haze in the back of this room?

COMMISSIONER BRADFJP.D:

It-'s been hazy all through the ciay.

I think somebodys reset the air condiLioner.

COMMISSIONEH AHEARNE:

The question is whether its moisture or not.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE.:

Well, I don-'t.smell a combustion process.

COMiv1ISSIONER B~ADFORD:

You notice when you step outside "Che roomies a lot hotter in here.

It may be steam.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE-:

It gives,the whole t:hing a sort of dreamlike aspect.

It goes with some parts o~ the proceeoings.

(Laughter.)

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Anyway, onward.

The remaining issues, okay, specificity.

Now, let s see, could you help us with that, Len?

MR. BICKl1HT:

Sure.

The next issue, I think the easiest way to approach it is to look at Option 1 and 2.

Let's not talk about Option 3 quite yet.

There-'s been some --

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE~

What if that option leads to unworkable splits of five votes?

256030230 kap 4

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7 30 MR. BICiWJT1 There's been some discussion about the language in the draft order embracing in too-firm terms the particular act.ions that are listed.

If you want: to indicate not that you've determined that these are the appropriate action, but that at this point this is what you believe will be the appropriate actions, then what we would advise is to go with Option 1, the languag*e of which reacis, b

the above-listed act.ions require this provisional and has

~

b~en based on recommendations given to the Commission by NRC 10 staff.

11 That may be supplemented or modified by the Board 12 as a result of the evidence presented at the hearing and 13 that it does not represent. the fixed or final views of the l4 Commission and that we would make some adjustments to either 15 l~nguage which is.now in the draft to follow that thought -

16 COMiv'iI SS.IONER AHEARNE.:

We 1*1. Le*n, would the issue 17 there that we 1 d be trying to communicate by -- I could read 18 it several ways.

I can read it as, we don 1 t know whether lY they're right or not, the staff thinks theyJre right and 20 we/re neutral, or I can read it as, we and the staff think 21 these are appropriate, but there may be others that we donJt 22 know about and we're leaving that open.

Or it might be, 23 here/s what the staff thinks.

We have our own views and we 24 arenJt saying yet.

25 MR. BARRY:

It1 s the second, with one

256030331 kap 2

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31 modification, that the actions not only may be insufficient, but they may be unnecessary.

In other words, the list may be too long as well as too short.

COMMISSIONER _t.HEARNE.:

Bu--c we've alre2"J'y, haven't 5

we, recommended for most of them that other plants must do 6

this.

7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

I was going to say i t s not 8

precisely a unique new list that we've never seen and agonized over before.

It has a certain modest what?

10 distinction to it, from Commission action.

If the 11 Commission?

12 MR. BICKwI*r:

Nonetheless, when you list as one of 13 your issues v1hether the ac--cions are necessary and 14 sufficient, you're acknowledging that the Board has the LS leewpy to decide that some aYe unnecessary.

I 16 CD;,;MISSIONER AHEARNE:

But we have already, at l7 least as far as we're concerned, we've already said for many 18 of them that they are necessary, in our view.

MR. BICK~I1:

Yes, but in each case where you've 20 said that, you have grant~d a statutory right to a hearing 21 on that question.

And here, you are again granting such a 22 right.

I think it would be required as a matter of law to 23 allow the Board to question ~he necessity 24 25 COMMISSIONER.A.HEARNE:

I'm not arguing that.

What IJm really trying to address it, why should the language

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5 32 that. we use be any different than we./ ve used before?

i sn; t it?

MR. BICiWIT:

Unnecessary, insufficient, it isnJt.

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE.:

But. the rest of this is, COMMISSIONER GILINSKYt There are issues that are 6

specific to this case.

7 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

What have we seen on the other 8

orders?

y MR. BICKWIT:

In the other orders, you/ve said you 10 had to co certain actions.

Then you ~eld a hearing while

.l 1 these actions were being oone.

12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

I don/t think we said 13 anything like. These actions are provisional and are based 14 upon recommendations provided by the st'aff.

i5 16 kR. BICKWIT.:

No, you didn~t..

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY.:

There are two kinds of 17 objects in here, there are requirements which have applied 18 in the past to other B&W licensees, there are a whole bunch JY of concerns that. apply to this specific case.

If it was 20 just like another case, youJd turn the ~lant on and hold 21 another hearing afterwards.

22 23 24 25 So you/ve obviously got a different situation here.

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

I know it./s a different situation.

I am just trying as best as I can to see if we

256030533.

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10 I I 12 13 14 l :i 16 17 18 lY 20 21 22 23 24 25 33 can/t say clearly what it is.

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY,:

Then I think you have to separate out the i terns that

  • v-.1ere identical to those required in other B&W plants, t.reat. them one way~ and t.hen treat plant.-specific questions another way.

Why do you want. them together?

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE~

I don't agree.

I think they torm a class which has the same aspect as any other plants, that is, at~fMI-1 there are wnat I call the B&W generic it.ems, shore term, plus the short~term concerns specific t.o l~I-1 and, both in the case of TMI-1 and in the case of other plants, we have saia -- in the case of the other plants we have said these are the short-term items.

~eople want to argue about them, they can have a nearing and t.here.,s no implication* that our *orders on tr!e other plant~ that a hearin;, a license report decision following a hearing, might not come out and say, take requjrement number three, it's unnecessary, and then requirement. number four, you need twice as many wires or but.tons or what.ever.

You know, that.'s clearly there, and in the TMI-1 c2se proposed now t.o have a hearing before the restart that the short-term it.ems have the same aspect -- here are an array of short-~erm i~ems to be completed before restart which are subject to the hearing?

-256030634 kap 2

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6 34 The Board may throw one out, double another one up, find an n-plus-one *that it wants, but it doesn..,t seem to be a different configuration.

Indeed, as you say, we haven't in those cases said, you know, this is a provisional list.

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY":

But there are other 7

concerns.

Let..,s take one specific way in which this case b

di1fers from other cases.

You've got TMI-1 and TMI-2 tied Y

together in various ways.

10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Getting that unraveled is one 11 of the short-term items.

12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

No, but I dor/t think the 13 staff is prepared at this point, let alone the Commission, 14 to know in detail exactly* what these are.

15 CHAIRMAN H!::Ni.JRIE:

But it wasn't. detailed in any.

16 of the other cases or any of the other items, either.

It 17 says, one of the short-term things is cio an analysis of ib small break LOCAs and transiencs.

It doesn,,t say what-all lY is going to go in it.

20 C0,',1A1ISSIONEfi.A.HEARNE:

And 1,1hat they say here and 21 what they have proposed is, The licensee shall take actions 22 required to demonstrate that the plant restoration and/or 23 operations at TMI-2 will not impact safe operations at 24 25 TMI-1.

They're not prepared to be specific but t.hat is at least one half of it.

There has to be a separation

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20 21 22 23 24 25 demonstrated between the two.

35 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

Your point i s --

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE,:

My point is I--'m still having aifficul~y.

Tr.is proposed oarac;raph seems to be placing a much greater distance between us and the set of accions than the previous orders.

1--'m having difficulty understanding why.

I can certainly understand entirely different plants, di+/-ferent situation and 1 agree with that.

But I don I' t understand why we are placing a ilistance from this set because I tnink the set of actions that we put in there are, to the bes1 of our knowledge, the ones that we will require.

Is it necessary to out -chis kind o! language in?

MR. BICKWIT:

I dGn--'t believe it is necessary.

COMMISSIONHI GILINSKY:

For myself, I would like what the staff has laid out as requirements for actions to be the staff's view and one of the reasons to hold a hearing is to find out what really ought to go into that package and what the require~ents are to be.

At the end of the hearing they ought to be very specific.

Now, the Commission has not really gone into this mat~er with the staff in any detail.

I don't think we have, as a body.

1 don't see now we are in a position, other than simply relying on the staff

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1 (J 11 12 13 14 1 :::i 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 36 CO!v\\MI SSJONER AHEARNE.:

I guess we./ve probably gone into it, at least as much, if not more than we went into it one the other plants thac we said could start up.

COMMISSIO!-.JEE GILH:sr:Y:

I don"t Chink that"s rignt.

I think we did go over that once in some detail, and I think they were very much more specific.

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE.:

A lot of these are very similar.

CO,Jii/iISSIClNER GILINSKY:

That"s right to t:he extent chey are.

COMtl:ISSIONER AHEAP.1,)E:

And I think wi ch in respect to TMI-l and 2 we have probably spent more time on those plants than we have on the ochers combined.

COi/iMISSIOi'-iER GILINSi(Y.:

Yov know, v,hen you get pasc che sort of stahd~rd B&W lisc ~pplied to other plants you"re talking, really, not about actions but areas of concern.

In those cases. satisfactory resolution to the Commission 1 s satisfaction of these* i terns will be required.

That"s one thing, but say you have to do X or what8ver.

I just don-'t think --

really.

COMMISSIONER AHEARHE:

That*,..s what it says, It 1 s saying much more.

When you get into TMI specifically, tnere are much more of a character tha~ your first descriotion.

Here"s the general actions that have bEen caken.

That doesn"t say, for example, which pipes

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. I i 12 13 14 15 16 17 lb lY 20 21 22 23 24 25 37 should be cut o1f and which valves ought to be put in, which connections ought to be severed.

It doesnJt do that.

MR. BICKWIT:

I'd just like to say, I don't think it would nave any legal significance whether this were in or 1-c./ s.just a quest ion of expressing your state of mind and level of confidence.

COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

My interest in this area was a different one, and itJs really picked up in the seco~d to the last sentence of your second option.

I could put that sentence together with almost anything, but I would like to see a sentence like that somewhere

  • C()!\\'\\/1\\ISSJONER AHEARNE:

You mean, On the basis of the hearing it will be determined COtM,HSSIOi\\!ER BRADFORD:

Yes. I. just think it ou~ht to be clear that while we're talking about the conditions th~t itJs really on the basis of the hearing, it will be determined whether we start as permitted at all.

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

I am definitely missing something because I thought that in the case of where a hearing is required before a plant can operate or any action can be taken, I thought that was the fundamental underlying st.ep.

COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

r~m in agreement on that, but as I understood, I don't see the only issue in that nearing being compliance with these actions being taken, or

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b JO l I l2 13 14 i5 l6 l7 lb lY 20 21 22 23 24 25 38 compliance as defined by the Board on the basis of not only that but also other contentions raised in the hearing and their resolution.

I just think tnat ought to be stated once clearly near the beginning of the order.

That was what had led me to raise a concern in this area.

MR. BICKWIT:

Well, that-"s easily remedied.

I cer~ainly do~'t have any problems that I can think of in saying that the hearing will oe the oasis for determination of whether operation will be resumeo.

COMMISSIOUER BRADFORD:

The hearing and the resolution of the contention is raiseO: there, along with

~hese conditions, would be the basis for any provision for restart.

COi*,tiv\\I SSJ.ONEH AHEARl~E ~

It probably depends on what guidance we give to the aoard on the resolution of contentions.

COMMISSIONER Bi-?ADFORl..J:

Fair enough.

And the authority is part of that --

CO/v\\MI.:3~IONER AHEARNE:

vJe still have CHAIRMAN HENDRIE; We don't need the provisional paragraph?

MR. BICKWIT.:

No, you donJt.

Io accomplish PeterJs objective, we could simply put language in to that

25603-1 I 39 Kap 2

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)b 17 18 IY 20 21 22 23 24 25 effect, and if you'd like it near the beginning of the order, it can go there.

39

.COMMISSIONER GI.LINSKY.:

Let-l's see, where does thai l ea v e u s

\\'l i th re s p e ct to lists prepared by the staff -

MR. BICKWIT:

It would leave you that these are the actions you' re ordering as a condition for restart, or ordering moved on in the case of the long-term actions as a condition to restart with the understanding that the Board is to look at these and decide whether these are necessary and whether these are enougn, snd that you will make your final judgment based on the recorci of that proceedin~

  • CHAIRt!:Jd~ HDJDRIE:

That"s what I 1 a do.

raise and prov.e that a particular contention is ei t.her

  • unnecessary or insufficient, then the Board is free to go beyond that contention br trim it ~ack in ihatever* way it sees fit?

MR. BICKWIT:

The final decision is yours.

CO,/iMISSIONER GILINSKY:

The Commission is looking tot.he So2rd to perfect. that list.

MR. BICKWIT:

That's exactly right.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

I think, j_n fact, that s a good way to think about it.

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

There is no suggestion that this is the basis on which the Commission would act

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You have someone coming in and requesting a hearing.

MR. BICKWI.T:

This is your best guess, is the way I would put it.

COIMI.ISSIONER GILINSiY.:

Weigh actions and concerns?

  • MR. BICKl~!IT:. Both.

CHAHU.'iAh HENDRIE:

I ihink indeed since it ought to be our best list, if we had not decided to have this proceeding before restart. -- weJre trying to consider now on restart. this would be the list.

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

I guess what I m saying is that before I vwuld make that decision, I would want to have either a proceeding or the eq~ivalent of a procBeoing here before the commissioners, so that I *can come to a final view on* v,hat* that is going to be.

I don't think we've done that, I certainly haven't done that.

CHAIRifiAN HEi-JDRIE~

Well, we've done it in as great, degree here as we've done it for othef B&W ~lants.

We've had sta.ff briefings on their proposed: list, we've been listening to B&W, and TMI issues in various formats here.

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY.:

I guess I don't. think we've done it in enough detail.

And also, I think its' a special case.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Why don t we agree to disagree,

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  • I 5 16 17 lb lY 2C 21 22 23 24 25 41 and let me ask, Len, in order to try to finish 3-A, if he would tell us what he/s got in mind and a possible third option under this general A heading?

i/f../. BICr~WIT:

Yes 1 th.is antici;:istes that some actions may be handled by iulemaking, some actions in response to the accident.

The Commission may choose to implement its resp::,nse to the accident through rulemaking procedures and it simply says that to the extent that the Commission decides to do that, it/s the,understanding now that the Commission will remove those issues from this proceeoing.

CR b256 #4 DAV/PV 42 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Could you give me an example 2

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5 of the kind of issue you are thinking of?

MR. BICKWIT:

Well, let's say you have an emergency plan.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Hardware is easier.

It makes it I

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6 less site-specific.

Suppose we had decided, the staff decided) the following is a general proposition:

that because of the 8

configuration of the B&W system, that a single relief valve or 9

block val V2 in that line was not acceptable configuration, and i

10 ! we decided after ap~ropriate analysis that a pore valve series 11 parallel array provided another decade of reliability of both 12 opening and closing, and that this was in fact required, it 13 provided the necessary improvement _in public health and safety 14 to meet 51 or 09 or any other standard you want.

15 If we just said, "Look, every B&W wants to operat~,

16 you have to put one of these in on the following schedule, or 17 this array in on the following schedule," would we do that by 18 rule or by orders to the licensees?

19 MR. BICKWIT:

You could do it either way.

This says 20 that if you choose to go by rule, then you will drop this issue I

21 out of here.

22 23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

And if we chose to go by order?

MR. BICKWIT:

Then you would not.

24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

That we would still be within the I

Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 1 25 ' hearing?

pVL.

43 MR. BICKWIT:

Yes.

This would be just one of those orders.

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I CO:MMISSIONER AHEARNE:

So, if I get it correctly, wha ti 4

5 you're saying is that it doesn't refer to anything on term list, even though many of those are generic, and the short-!

I it doesn't I

6 refer to anything on the long-term list.

As long as we have

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9 directions to the other plants that they must do it.

MR. BICKWIT:

Other than through rulemaking.

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

But that's not a direction for 10 ! the plant?

i 1 12 MR. BICKWIT:

But if you propose a rule COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

But that's not a direction to 13 the plant;"that's proposing a rule?

14 MR. BICKWIT:

Often you can achieve that objective 15 through a rule.

16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

But after the rule had been 17 completed, if the rule weri.e to be completed and as a resurt of 1811 the rule, the other plants had to do it, then this plant would 19 I' have to do it also.

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20 I MR. BICKWIT:

Under the rule, but not as a result of I

21 any action taken under this proceeding.

22 COM.MISSIONER AHEARNE:

Bu,t :it would not then fall --

23 let us consider that scenario in which this proceeding takes "A

24 five years; and the rule is completed in two years, and the Ac~eral Reporters, Inc.

25 requirement is laid down that all these plants have to do things

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44 Are you saying, therefore because the rule has been completed first, this plant doesn't have to do it?

3 I MR. BICKWIT:

No.

The rule applies to this plant the I

4:

same as it applies to every other plant, and therefore there is 5

no need to consider --

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COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Then it falls under the.long-term actions category.

MR. BICKWIT:

Fine.

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Then this must be still a 10 ! third category of item, which is that category of item which I

11 ! has not yet been thought of in the long-term list or the short-12 term list.

13 14 15 16 17 MR. BICKWIT:

J;3ut we don't know what the Cornrnissipn's I

posture will be with respect to all long-term actions which may come out of the Lessons Learned report.

The Commission may decide --

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

It's an item that has not yet rn really been determined for the other plants; that's right.

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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

No.

It could be one of the long-term issues already identified.

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

And tasked for all the other 22 plants.

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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Yes.

In principle, you could go 1\\

A 24 \\ ahead and decide that you're going to do one of these deferred A~eral Reporters, Inc.;

I 25 \\ actions in Table J-1 by rule.

I doubt that we would.

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8 l 1 12 45 COIYIMISSIONER AHEARNE:

But those actions have to task with the other plants.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

It's in the process.

COOMISSIONER AHEARNE:

It's in the process.

i It hasn't been tested.

I am talking about those long-term actions that have been tasked to the plants.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

I don't know actually whether they have been laid on the other plants or not.

Does anybody know whether Harold has gone out and said, "Hi, there, everybody.

Do 0578"?

MR. BICKWIT:

I believe not.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

You know, we were talking about it, 13 what, last week or something like that.

They kept harassing 14 15 16 17 18 them about were they or weren't tney.

They said they intend to.

Okay.

But it could be.

But why limit it to the ones in rule, if there were issues which were approrpriate to solve to deal with on a generic basis?

MR. BICKWIT:

Well, in the typical situation you will have the alternatives before you as to whether to go by rule, 20 by order, or by letter.

If you choose to go by order, then 21 I I

22 I I

I 23 I 241 A~eral Reporters, Inc. I 25 I there doesn't seem to be any particular reason not to use this proceeding to order the action with respect to this point.

If you choose to go by rule, a rule should have application to all plants, and there doesn't seem to be any reason to deal with that issue in the course of this proceediJng.

A~*eral Reporters, 2

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Inc. 1 25 I 46 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

If what you're trying to get at that if the Commission is opening as a rulemaking under way to decide an issue that it's inappropriate then for the board to decide that issue?

MR. BICKWIT:

That's exactly right.

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Would that normally be the practice?

MR. BICKWIT:

Yes, that would.

It would normally be considered an inconsistent action by a regulatory commission to have a rulemaking on it, and then with a plant to which the rule would apply if made final go out with a specific order de~ling with precisely the same subject.

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Wouldn't the board then know that and therefore automatically put that issue aside?

MR. BICKWIT:

But you may have already listed it, though, the issue.

Then the board would feel obligated, *if you didn't take it out, to consider it.

You've also said with respect to issues that haven't been dealt with, you also said look at the sufficiency of the actions we've required.

If you then come out with a ruilie that deals with an action that we haven't yet thought of, the board may f_eel constrained to move into an examination of whether the code of conduct described by that rule ought to be required of TMI-1.

It's been told, after all, to look at the sufficiency of the actions which have been required, and it seems to me *that you ought to follow on this

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ieral Repcrters, 2

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9 47 order with an additional order saying don'*t look at that if you've got a rulemaking outstanding..

Otherwise, you have one proceeding in which you've got some kind of informal procedures going forward on a specifid action, and you've got an adjudicatory hearing for one plant dealing with precisely the same subjectmatter,and there doesn'ti seem to be any reason to single out that plant and prescribe special procedures.

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Wouldn't the easiest way to 10 I handle that be to go out for the rule?

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I Inc. 1 25 I MR. BICKWIT:

That's exactly the way you would handlJ it.

We would simply have some language in there saying that that's what you would intend to do.

If this is giving any Commissioner any problems, there is no problem whatsoever with dropping this out.

COMMISSIONER A~EARNE: It would help me a great deal if I knew of a specific rule or issue that was on line to be addressed by that.

MR. BICKWIT:

Any one of those issues in the Lessons Learned report could be dealt with by a rulemaking.

Staff has not told us what their proposal is with respect to., how those issues are going to be dealt with.

In fact, they've indicated an inclination not to go by a rulemaking.

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

You see, you start out here, you I re culling the lists of concerns; you 'scrap those - -that

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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 19 48 are essentially generic.

I read this option as you're moving all generic actions but it isn't holding.a place for any action\\

that we desire to put into a rulemaking.

It's pulling the list at hand.

MR. BICKWIT:

I see.

Well, the concept is that this would not go into operation until you actually proposed a rule with respect to a given kind of activity, and if that doesn't come through, it can be made to come through.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

The culling or not culling might or might not take place with language proposed for the order.

If one wanted to include it, it would just be stuck at the top of page 9, the Commission was considering, et cetera, et cetera MR. BICKWIT:

I do not feel that this-is an issue that you have to resolve now if it's giving you any difficulty-!

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I COM..MSSIONER AHEARNE:

Let me ask you another question.!

I The language that you had proposed, including says we are con-sidering opposing generic requirements if any such generic actio;n is taken and the action impinges upon any of the matters in this proceeding, we will issue a separate order removing the 20 matter from the hearmg;..:he generic requirements may be taken by 21 I

order, by directive.

22 I MR. BICKVHT: That is not what this sentence means by 2311 "generic action."

A~eral Reporters, 24 I COMMISSIONER AHEARI\\JE:

When the directive says "all I

Inc. j 25 i plants do this," that is the *generic requirement made by the

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12 13 14 15 16 49 director.

MR. BICKWIT:

That was not what the drafters meant by "generic requirement."

What the drafters meant was a rule.

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

if it is redrafted.

I may not have any difficulty MR. BICKWIT:

I think that's what should be done.

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CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Would a Commission order reach i

into the category of things MR. BICKWIT:

Generic?

No, not under our concept.

COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

You were really talking about rulemaking.

You were really saying if it would gq out in a rulemkaking one of these MR.. BICKWIT:

That's what we were talking about.

COMMISSIONER AHEAR.l\\JE:

I don I t think I would have any trouble with that.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Would you have any trouble with 17 leaving the damned thing out?

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21 11 22l1 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

Not at all.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

It seems to me if we took some generic actions and we felt that a particular generic action, whether it was an order or whether it had gone the rulemaking route, if we felt that it was of such a nature that it would be

\\1 231 appropriate to scoop it out of the TMI-1 proceedings and just do 24 it on a generic basis and not have a contenti.on in that pro-Ace~era1 Reporters, Inc.

25 ceeding, we could always decide that at the time.

But we have

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9 10 I 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 so got an order of the TMI-1 board, saying, "Hi, there, send back Item 7.

We're managing it over here."

MR. BICKWIT:

This language doesn't do anything.

It simply announces an intention to do something.

You prefer not to announce it, simply to do it at times, there is no problem.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

It mumbles suggestively, in the Commission's beard.

If I were a little clearer just exactly what the implications of the mumbling were, I feelings about either loving it or hating it.

seems we don't need it.

I might have strongelr On balance, it MR. BICKWIT:

The option of removing it is looking increasingly attractive.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Do I have strident opposition here to not putting that paragraph or a modified version in?

COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

You wouldn't have strident opposition on it, anyway.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Drop,it.

There seems.clear to be a disinclination here to be enthused about it, and I will declare that the chair is incapable of proceeding to the next item on this list, so we will adjourn this meeting.

We will meet again on Friday afternoon.

(Whereupon, at 4:40.,p.m., the meeting was adjourned, to reconvene on Friday, August 3, 1979.)

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