ML22230A106

Tran-M791004: Public Meeting Discussion/Affirmation Session 79-29

ML22230A106
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Issue date:	10/04/1979
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..___ -TO SECRETARIAT RECORDS NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMlSSlON IN THE MAT1'ER Or:

PUBLIC MEETING DISCUSSION/ AFFiru,1'.ATION SESSION 79-29 Pl ace - Was h inq t.on, D. C.

Oate - Thursda y , 4 October 197 9 Pagesl-17 Telephone:

(202) 347-3700 ACE -FEDERAL REPORTERS, ll'{C.

Official Reporten 444. North Capitol Street Washington, D.C. 20001 NATIONWIDE COVERAGE.- DAILY

CR7470 ..

1 DTSCLAIYlER This .is* an unofficial transcript of a meeting of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission held on Thursda:y, 4 October 1979 in. the

.Cornmissions's offices*.at*l717 E Street, N. W., Washington, D* .. C. The meeting was open to public: attendan~e and observation. This transcript has not been reviewed, corrected,* or*eait~d,. and i t may contain inaccuracies.

The transcript is intended solely for general informational purposes. As provided by 10. CFR 9.103 1 i t is not part of the formal or informal record of decision of the matters discussed. Expressions of opinion in this transcript do no.t necessarily reflect final determinations or beliefs.

• No pleading or other paper may be filed witb the Corn:mission in any proceeding as th:e result of or addressed to any statement or argu..--nent contained herein, except as the Commission may aut.r1orize.

R74 70 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

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NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION PUBLIC MEETING 4

5 DISCUSSION/AFFIRMATION SESSION 79-29 6

7 8

Room 1130

'9 1717 H Street, N. W.

Washington, D. C.

10

• Thursday, 4 October 19 7 9 ll The Commission met, pursuant to notice, at 2:05 p.m.

12 BEFORE:

- 13 14 15 DR. JOSEPH M. HENFRIE, Chairman VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner RICHARDT. KENNEDY, Commissioner 16 PETER A. BRADFORD, Commissioner 17 JOHN F. AHEARNE, Commissioner 18 PRESENT:

19 Messrs. Bickwit, Gossick, and Thompson.

20 21 * * *

- 22 23 24 Ace- ral Reporters, Inc.

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'4 70 01 01 mgvBWH AFTERNOON SESSION

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4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

(2:05 p.m.)

Let~s turn to the discussion.

I hope this can be brief and bring us to a vote on the Paper

J 79-479.

6 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: My vote agrees.

1 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Would someone please outline 8 79-479? Would they outline it for us?

9 This is a discussion item which I would hope would 10 lead to a vote.

11 MR. HOYLE: SECY-79-479 recommends that the 12 Commission issue changes to its rules, Part 71, as an 13 effective rule to be effective 30 days after publication,

- 14 l :5 16 requiring shipment of radioactive materials by NRC licensees to be in acc,ordance with DOT regulation.

The reason for the immediate effectiveness is that 17 the staff believes that there is an immediate need to 18 increase the level of its inspection and enforcement 19 activities in this area.

2J The paper explains that the paper would NRC 21 inspection now on shipments in addition to the Department of 22 Transportation inspections. I understand that Commissioner 23 Kennedy would like to discuss aspects of this matter, 24 particularly related to resources.

25 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I think everybody is in

4 470 OJ 02 mgvBWH receipt of a copy of my memorandum of August 22, referring 2 to the approximately 10 man-years of effort that would be 3 required to undertake what was referred* to as a modest level 4 of the program and would not include those activities within

~ the agreement states.

6 I also noted that I saw no evidence that the staff had those 10 man-years available to it without reprogramming 8 from other activities, and I asked some questions about 9 that.

10 I want to simply for the record note that in our 11 Sept9mber 11. -- and I believe everybody has a copy of this 12 memorandum. I received a response. from the Director of the 13 Office of Inspection and Enforcement in which he said, J 1

We 14 do noi-pres9ntly have the resources to devote to this 15 speci fie effort, nor was the research. requirement adequately 16 addressed in the l&E budget request for J 81-.,, 83.*11 1/ I want it very clear that those resources are 18 therefore going to have to come from somewhere else. I

1) believe it is incumbent upon the Commission in such matters 20 to make the decision as to whether the resources be diverted 21 from other purposes to these purposes *.

22 I would appreciate it if I&E could describe to us 23 what those other -- the source of those resources would be.

24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Do you want to come up, Dudley?

2:5 Let me ask by the way, as you start on that discussion,

A 70 *01 03 5 mgvBV'IH I_ dealt in the last day with a paper on the subject of some

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of these inspections that details the staff resource requirements at various levels of i~spection activities in

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6 this area. There was a recommendation in that paper, as I recall it, for Alternative 2(C), and the proposal was to add whatever the Commission approved, an increment to go back in l and add those things to-the budget which has gone forward.

8 Now am I talking about the right things?

9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Talking about 515?

10 MR. THOMPSON: Yes, you are speaking on the right 11 things on the basis of our manpower requirement to meet the 12 needs of the Part 71 amendment and the attention devoted to 13 transportation has resulted in co*rrespondence from the three

- 14 13 16 governors involved *. That is set forth in 515.

outlines for your consideration the basis on which we reached the I That 1 man resource requirement* and notes that in 1' the absence of those resources being supplied, we do intend 13 to divert radiation inspection coverage at reactor materials 19 licensees sufficient for an interim coverage of the 2Cl transportation problem until such time as resources could be 21 ma-::ie availaDle.

22 The recommendation is the least demanding in terms 23 of resources of the six alternatives proposed.

24 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Again, for the record, what 25 is precisely the effect of the radiation protection program

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'4 70 01 04 mgvBWH of the diversion of this number of individuals from the*

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4 reactor side and from the materials side.

MR. THOMPSON: The effect on the reactor side will be a reduction of about 55 on-site days per year or the

'.J equivalent of 10 to 15 inspections per year across the 6 reactor program and about 50 on-site days in fuel facilities 7 for the on-site .time for aoout IO to 12 inspecti.ons across 8 that program and about 400 ~-

) COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: As a percentage of what?

10 MR. THOMPSON: Roughly,.a 10 percent reduction 11 acr::>ss both programs, and roughly about 450 to 600 12 ins~ections of materials licensees throughout a year, which 13 sounds very large on the surface, but most of these

- 14 LS 15 inspections are on lower priority licensees.

what?

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Lower priority, meaning 1/ Mti. THOMPSON: In terms of the frequency of 1.g inspections that are scheduled in the pre-program Jy inspections.

2,'.) COMIAISSIONER KENNEDY: Yesterday, we had some 21 discussion of th~ health and physics problems at a 2L particular reactor and the need to enhance our efforts in 23 this regard. At whatever number of reactors involved here, 24 we are going to decrease our effort.

25 Is the staff's wisdom here that that is a proper

i4 70 OJ 05 7 m.gvBWH distribution of resources?

e* 2 MR. THOMPSON: Given the circumstances*-

3 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Wait. What circumstance*s?

4 MR. THOMPSON: The increased need for inspection

, activities on transportation efforts. It is a question of 6 the assignment of prio~ities within the given resources that 7 we have available. I am very hesitant to endorse a position 8 that says, 11 We are happy to reduce health physics 9 ins~ections at reactors or fuel facilities.~

IJ COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: We can accomplish the new 11 additional program only at that expense?

12 MR. THOMPSON: Correct.

13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Or at least with sort of two.

14 caveats. The first is, .I look forward to an affirmative Jj vot3 from the Commissioners on increasing the budget request 16 to cover this fact, so that there is a time during which 1J this pinch would be the case.

18 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: l\lhat is the duration of 19 that time?

20 MR. GOSSICK: Let me speak to that. We would 21 attgmpt to get this in our J'SO supplement. It is currently 22 with 0MB. They have been alerted that there is this 23 problem, that we will be to them with the Commission1 s 24 decision with regard to the level of resources to be sought, 2j so it is whenever those resources would become available --

8 470 01 06 m.QvBWH I certainly not until calendar JBO at best.

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4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

when 0MB is (inaudible)?

Do we have any sense of MR. GOSSICK:. It is our understanding they are

J trying to expedite the processing of our supplemental to 6 break it loose to get.over with the first supplemental I before the end of the year?

8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The second one, and it is not 9 quite a caveat - to what extent is that possible, to get*

10 some resource assistance from contractors in this area?

ll /l{R. THOMPSON: It is possiole, Mr. Chairman, to 12 get some contract help in this area. And as a matter of 13 fact, the Director of the office has instructed the staff to

- 14 Jj 16 look into this area.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I recognize the nature of the circumstances such that you can't all fully cover the area 1' with contractor assistance. It, for certain aspects, is not 18 *appropriate and so on. To the extent that you get -- when I 1:) talk about contractor assistance, it ~an cover several areas 2J here, not just the transportation area.

21 CO\{MISSIONER AHEARNE: My question really is, can 22 we take enforcement action based upon .recent results of the 23 contractor's review?

24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I don't see why not.

2.5 Presumably, if a contract - you know, if a contractor came

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~470**01 07 m._gvBWH back and said, *11 Gee, we think this licensee*is not

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conforming" or something, why then it would follow with an NRC check on it.

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At any rate, all I suggest is there may be some, although clearly not total, alleviation of the resource squeeze.

7 MR. THOMPSON: We are examining the extent to 8 which we can get some relief for this.

9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I am sorry I kept holding you 10 up. Vic?

11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: When you spoke of a 12 reduction of 10 percent in our inspection efforts on*

13 reactors and fuel cycle, did you mean that the entire

- reactor inspection effort is reduced?

14 15 MR. THOMPSON: No, I did not. That is JQ percent 16 of the manpower devoted to the radiation protection aspect 11 of those programs. It is the radiation protection 18 specialist who would be doing both types of inspections --

19 the operation type of inspections. The construction type is 2J not affected by this.

2i COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: And 10 individuals 22 represents what fraction of your actual inspection force?

23 MR. THOMPSON: Aoout two percent. A little less 24 than two percent.

25 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: i"'lhat does the entire

7410* 01 08 10 rngvBWH radiation protection inspection force represent as a 2 percentage of the total inspection force?

3 MR. THOMPSON: A little. less than a f*ifth. It has 4 . to be right around 18 or 19 percent.

> ( Commission er Br ad ford. le£ t the room at 2.: I 5 p. m. )

6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: It is something *like 90-odd folk in the area.

8 Mi~. THOMPSON: Including the supervisory Y overhead. In terms of inspectors, I believe it is on the 10 order of 60 to 65. I could get that figµre more accurately.

1l CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Since we work the supervisors, 12 it is 10 percent or so.of that force.

13 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Do I understand that you 14 hav9 already implemented this proposition?

lj MR. THOMPSON: We are performing inspection of 16 transportation efforts on an interim basis with diverted 17 manpower from other programs.

18 Co i,{M ISSI ONER KENNEDY: In other words, we may b.e 19 here discussing an academic proposition. Is that the way I 20 undarstand that?

21 MR. THOMPSON: I would hate to characterize it 22 that way, Commissioner. It is clear on the basis of the 23 perceived naed over the last six weeks or so that increased 24 effort was necessary in this area, and we have bsen doing 25 it. The impact in that short time period has not been

- '11 7470. O 1 09 111gvBWH - substantial.- However,-if.-it goes.on. for much_lor)ger, the

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• diverted ma'"lpower will have.

a co MMI SSI ONER AHEARNE:

much more significant e.ffec t. _

Thefe is a-* 'd*tffe'reri't' ,

issue *.. One of the things we are discussing-:- eventually

.:J will get to the point:_,.;. the amendment-of--- that will_

6 enable -us tQ inspect against DOT. -**

7 MR~. THOMPSON:: . We are not doing: that.

• I am .sorry 8 if I provided misleading information. I. am spe*aking in 9 terms 9f the augmented .inspection -efforrts for:

10 transportation in general~ not the DOT extension SECY paper 11 you dis.cussed. -

12 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:* .So we have already diverted*

13 manpower?

14. MR.. - THOMPSON:

• Yes *.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: -. Viihat is. the extent of that*

16 div~rsioni That is. in-addition, is .that correct? That is 1, -in addition* to the 10 percent. we are. talking about?.

18 MR. THOMPSON: That would be *part of the *10.

19 percent in SECY 79-51 5-, and that. 10 percent, of course --- 10 20 percent is six weeks' total e.ffort,.....""'.' is still 10 per.cent, 21 but it is not* the 5b to 55 man-d~ys set fort~ in the SECY 22 paper which. is an annual figure.

23 We are talking about five, six man-days of effor-t

24. diverted so far in_ this six. week period:

2:5. C0MMISSfONER GILINSKY:

• So in carrying :out this

7410* 0 I I 0 12 (IlgvBWH program, we are fulfilling the promise that we made to the

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4 three governors?

MR. THOMPSON:

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

That is correct.

Judged by the morning news, we

, will need a little more.

6 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: The staff did conclude when it made this proposal for handling the problem without 8 resources that it should not be allowed to continue for more 9 than a few months. Isn't th~t correct?

10 MR. THOMPSON: That is correct.

lI COM!vlISSIONER KENNEDY: In the event that we do not 12 have the relatively quick success in terms of a 13 supplemental, *that would suggest what then?

14 MR. GOSSICK: The Commission has.to decide if it 15 can continue the commitment or to reallocate resources from 16

• some other source. It can't be done by magic. It has to 17 have an allocation of resources somehow.

18 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Let me say, as I have

1) already indicated on September 26, I indicated my agreement 2J to this proposition, however reluctantly, not on the grounds 21 that the job didn't need to be done but on the grounds that 22 it is hard to do jobs -if you don't have resources to do 23 them. And maybe this is one of the most dramatic examples 24 of what has become increasingly, I think, an attitude on the 25 part of the Commission, which is the willy-nilly commitment

74 7(j° 01 11 13 f]JgvBWH to accomplish things ~1th no idea of where the resources are

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4 going to _come from. before the commitment is made.

top.

I think that is ba& management, and it~ought* to

, COMMISS !ONER GILINSKY: I thought there was 6 unanimous agreement on the order we sent to the governors.

1 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: With a note about 8 resources.

9 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Lee, when-- we heve alerted 10 the budget change. Then we are going to have to. come a long 11 with a small addition. You are going to try to get that on 12 the ~so supplement?

13 MR *. GOSSICK: I don:'t think we have your decision 14 yet as to the leVel~ We gave several options in* the paper, 1:5 515, I thin'<:, and we are awaiting Commission decision 16 whether they agree with the minimum level that we 1'

recommended is the number, and I donJt believe we have 18 that. Do we, Dudley?

19 MR. THOMPSON: We do not have that. No, sir.

20 MR. HOYLE: We are still waiting.

21 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I voted with John, so there are

22. three. It would also be possible for us to go ahead and set 23 on that matter here as part of this run, if you would like.

24 Id~ feel a strong need for us to get on with the amendment 2:5 to Part 71. The difficulties with waste shipment~ to

/4 70 0 l 12 14 mgvBl*JH Hanford that occurred last night and the result of this

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4 morning and the closing of the site there are, *in fact, related to shipments being made under DOT regulations, rather than NRC.

> (Commissioner Bradford returned -to the room at 6 2:22 p.m.)

I Our ability to take some actions then is contigent 8 on the Part 71 change. What I would reco,mme nd to you, if 9 you would consider it, is our approval of the amendments to 10 Part 71 as laid out in the SECY paper. And in order simply 11 to put the resource matter in high gear, I would also

\ 12 recommend to you that we approve the resource addition

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' 13 request to the '80 supplement budget that has already gone

- 14 15 16 forward ..

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18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2:5

470'02 01 15 RV BWH John, you said the recommendation from I&E was l 1

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4 positions.

go with that.

You said eight ought t~ do it, trimming some ot the lower priority transportation matters. I was :wi.lling to I am also willing to ba9k to 10 or JI if that S Would,aid the agreement*here *.

6 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I am* prepared to agree with l I*

8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Go with the I&E recommendation 9 as ma.de.

10 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I think we will need them.

11 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Peter?

12

• COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: That-'s all right.

13 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Are you ready to .be outvoted?*

14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Always.

15 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The proposition that I make to 16 you is that we approve the amendments as set out in the SECY I I paper Part* /I and that we* approve the staff., s recommendation 13 for I l positions and the appropriate *funds to pay them to be 19 forwarded promptly to 0MB for the fiscal so supplementary 20 request of the commission. Thoie in favor?

21 C Chorus of ayes. )

22 COMNiISSIONER. AHEARNE: I vote *11 Yes* 11 on the first 23 and 11 Nou on the second.

24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: We record Ahearne as voting 2S that. eight would have done the job, on the. people

• 14 70:*02 16 02 P.v BWH COMMI.SS I ONER KENNEDY: Can we clarify now, be

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absolutely certain we are not talking about a* supplemental to attach the JBl request; we are talking about a

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6 supplement to '80.

MR. GOSS ICK: Yes.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Let.,_s be sure what we are 7 talking about. The staff said, and they just reiterated, 8 this should not obtain for more the situation should not y obtain for more than a few months. I want to be certain we J.J are talking about an addition to the supplement for '80 as 11 well as '81.

12 MR. GOSSICK: There will be a request for .,80 and 13 '81.

-- 14 15 16 CHAIRMANHENDRIE: It will be supplemental ..,80,_

and that delta will be added to the .,81. Otherwise, you come right bacl< down, which doesn't achieve the objective.

I I COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That is correct.

18 MK. GOSSICK:. There is $100,000 of program 19 support.

20 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Yes.

21 Dudley, I think you and Bill got out with a full 22 set of .chips this time. Normally, we don-'t let you away 23 from the.table with all of them.

24 MfL THOMPSON: I have full confidence that that 25 will not prevail in subsequent sessions.

17 470' 02 03 p,v BWH . CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I -just want ypu to be aware._ --_

• 2 that .it.may come back one way or .the*other._

3 Thank you very much._

4 (Whereupon, at-2:26 p.m., the meetirig was

)_* adjourned.)*

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