ML22230A102

Tran-M790801: Public Meeting Budget Presentations

ML22230A102
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Issue date:	08/01/1979
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{{#Wiki_filter:RETURN TO SECRETARIAT RECORDS NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION IN THE MATTER OF: PUBLIC MEETING BUDGET PRESENTATIONS Place - Washingotn, D. C. Date _ Wednesday, 1 August 1979 Page s 1 - 11 6 ACE - FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC. Official Reporters 444 North Capitol Street Washington, D.C. 2000 1 NATIONWIDE COVERAGE* DAI LY Telephone : (202 ) 3'17-3700

DISCLAIMER This is an unofficial transcript of a meeting of the United States Nuclear Regulatory.Commission held on Wednesday, August 1, 1979 in.the Commission 1 s offices in 1717 H Street, N.W., Washington, D.C. The meeting was open to public attendahce and observation. This transcript has not been reviewed, corrected, or edited, and it may contain inaccuracies. 1 The ~ranscript is intended solely for general informational purposes. As provided-by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of the formal or informal record of decision of the matters discussed. Expressions of opinion in. this transcript do not necessarily refle*ct final. determinations or beliefs. No pleading or oth~r paper may be filed with . the Commission in any proceeding as the result of or

• addressed to any statement or argument contained herein, except as the Commission may authorize.

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I 7 8 s: 10 15 16 18 2i 22 23 24 .~.c:e-Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 BEFORE: UNITED STATES OF AMERI:CA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION ADM/EDO/COMM BUDGET DISCUSSIONS Room 1130 1717 H Street Northwest Washington, D.C. Wednesday, August 1, 1979 2 The Commission met, pursuant to notice, at 11:30 a.m. DR. JOSEPH M. HENDRIE, CHAIRMAN. PETER Ao BRADFORD, Commissioner. RICHARDT. KENNEDY, Commissioner. JOHN AHEARNE, Commissioner. VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner. Also Present: MESSRS. ENGELHARDT, BARRY, GOSSICK, RYAN, COLLINS, KERR.

ar2 2 3 P R O C E E D I N G S [CommissI*on Gil"insky-not present-~ J CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay, let us resume. Let us do the following: We will turn now to the offices under the Executive, immediately under the Executive Director, and 3 6 give Lee a chance to make any comments. 7 Mr. Barry, I guess, will offer an overview from I 8 !I the Staff's standpoint.

i 9 ii We will see where questions of the Commissioners I

lO i arise on the one hand, and on the other, where there are i ,1,I

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l:t: ll I; i! ' 13 Ii i' ii specific office items that we ought to hear about. There are two listed on a tentative schedule here. After that, I want to turn to the Office of 14 II Administration. I suspect our time will run out before we 15 16 -~ ' I I 181 19 I, Ii 20 II I 21 22 are through discussing the Office of Administration. I think because the people are here from Bethesda, from Admin, a number of them, I think I will want to take up and finish Admin. Then this afternoon, as soon as we come back, and when we get to a breaking point, why, we will see what people's ability to come back for the afternoon is. MR. GOSSICK: I'd like to just make two comments on 23 i!EDO and Administration offices. 1' 24 As you will recall, in our '80 budget, 108 positions "'-~-Ff>deral Reporters, Inc. 25 that we asked for, there are only 11 that really dealt with

ar3 4 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 911 II !I lo II ii II i I !! \\1 i' 1 :t 13 . I 14 15 the EDO offices, the Staff offices, and Admin. And, of course, those were all zeroed, some.rather painfully. The national programs in particular, we had four positions that we actually planned on going ahead and f~lling ahead of time, and we are in various stages of doing that, but rJ think we do have a very real problem, resulting from the fact that all of those positions were zeroed out. There is also a matter that I will mention now. Whereas you will recall that.the NRR got into a big bind last year and we scurried about and reprogrammed, and spaces, we borrowed some spaces from Admin in the security area, and put those over in NRR, with ~he clear understanding that if the situation developed where that work load developed, we would probably have to take some of those back. I think we are kind of at that point right now, that I 16 we'd have to consider that. There is about five of those 17

• positions.

Dan will cover this. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 But we do have a problem of perhaps readjusting that allocation. Then, of course, there is also the more general problem that Dan will cover when he gets up, on the temporary spaces and the arguments that one can make and the problems that arise from a conversion. ~ ~-Federal Reporters, Inc. There is about 156 positions that are now essentiall full-time temporaries, but I think that he will cover that. 25

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8 5 I'll ask him to go ahead now and just go through the EDO offices. We only have one reclama, by the way, that Mr. Ryan would like to be heard on his mark. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, I think we can expedite our EDO review with several comments I can make. On the work sheet we passed out as part of your package, that's the format we set down on your total package titled EDO Offices. If we turn to that and turn to the second page where you get a summary coverage of all of the offices involved, under the EDO, except Admin, which is covered separately, there is several comments I can make. The budget issue we have here is reallr one of people rather than dollars, and dollars within the EDO offi~es. I We are not talking a great deal of money, and the little increase 15 between fiscal year 'BO, which has been approved, and fiscal I I I 16 year 1 81, is $500,000; about $150,000 of that is program support} 17 ii 1, would be in MPA, Norm Baller's outfit, and that would be I 18 \\ technical assistance that he will use in conjunction with this t '~- \\i operational data analysis function. I! 20 II ,I In other words, to supplement the work he will be

~ ldoi~g with his own staff, he will require some technical 1 assistance in that area.

231 And the other thing in the $150,000 is an increase /-'*r.f--Federal Reporters, Inc. in state programs which Bob Ryan will talk to, basically an increase in state training assistance by this agency, and that's 25

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~L -,-1 I n1i 14 15 1'9 21 22 23 24 ,t ~-Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 6 not much of an increase, and so I don't believe through the process we will have much of a problem with the dollar process. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:* Was there any consideration given to taking a piece that's in the research budget for this analysis, and putting it over here, where it belongs? MR. GOSSICK: These are really two different things. I believe the dollars that Norm is asking for COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I realize that, I'm not suggesting it is the same thing. I'm just saying it belongs under the EDO some place, and it is not in Research's budget. COM.MISSIONER AHEARNE: But it's a larger question, isn't it, which we are now putting in the FY '81 budget? There* I would think would be a line i~em corresponding with that new office. MR. GOSSICK: I think that's right, as we put this together in final form, the Commission's decision to go ahead with this office, and I hope to talk to you about the manning and staffing of that today, if possible. appropriate. I think that would be COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Because there is still a question in my mind whether it shouldn't be at least identified in FY '80, but certainly in FY '81, it ought to be identified, and in the construction of that, I think you ought to identify where those people are coming from. MR. GOSSICK: I agree.

ar6 2 3 4 7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Since I understand what we approved is some of the people are being pulled out of some of the ~ ~. o.LI:ices. MR. GOSSICK: That 1 s right. The only question is, 5 well, we can go ahead and take a guess at what the final size I 6 7 8 is and look into the '81 budget and change it for next year. CO~-~ISSIONER AHEARNE: I think that ought to be done., MR. BARRY: Okay. If you look at the people, the 9.I offices requested 22 additional people in '80, in a supplement Ii,, 10 related to TMI, between the BRG. 11 Well, that was with one exception. That 1 s with the 12 eight people you see listed down there in state programs.

• 13 That ~an now be related to TMI, but it 1 s for emergency i4 preparedness.

That, and the amount of dollars involved, are 15 in sync with the Senate authorization for fiscal year '80, 16 in which they contemplate eight people and a certain amount ~ i ,i of funds for state programs. 1* 18 \\ COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: When you say you have a 19 current estimate without supplemental, that's prior to that 20 action? 21 MR. BARRY: Yes, that's the base program, so that 22 would be a supplementary amount in people and dollars to that. 23 And, as I say, that's right in sync with the 24 Senate autho~ization. ~.c.-e-Ff':ieral Reporters, Inc. 25 In '81, the offices asked for an increase of 85

ar7 8 positions. There's the BRG and the EDO thought was a bit much. 2 We did recognize that there were about 26 positions that were 3 justifiable. 4 I COM..TVIISSIONER AHEARNE:. When you say they asked for - I s II I over what? 6 7 13 i

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~ '.:'c-Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 i ii MR. BARRY: Over the 315 that you see in the current estimate~ COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: And they are asking for 400? MR. BARRY: I'm sorry, was my arithmetic wrong? 75 -- I guess it is. It goes from 315 to 390. Yes, you are right, it is 75; I'm sorry. And we scrubbed that down to 26. One of ttte larg~r areas of request was* in ELD. I don't know whether -- COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: They had the BRG using a green eyeshade and a great skepticism we all have about lawyers COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Alternatively, he declared he had a conflict of interest and refused to participate. MR. BARRY: The bottom line is there was no reclama on that. CHAIRJl.1AN HENDRIE: What is the current level of the ELD? It's 95, isn't it? MR. BARRY: The current authorization will be 95, because we have two lawyers in there that got pitched out. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Excuse me. Bodily or --

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t ! I 18 1(' ' / 20 2i 22 24 >i,. !-*.~-r=ooerai Reporters, Inc. 25 9 [Laughter.] MR. BARRY: The 11 positions that we are referring to that we lost -- CO.Mt'lISSIONER AHEARNE: 1/4Then you say we lost two, did the Appropriations Committee specifically go down EDO's office? CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: What they did was take the 108 positions and say 40, zero, and then they came back in subse-I guently and said, 11 Oh, you' re having a lot of trouble licens ing?i Here's 100 for licensing." So that was the way. MR. BARRY: And of the 11 positions, those were articulated in our request, so they, of course, knew. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: There was no way, ~or example1 did they say we do not believe that the ELD should go to 97? What they really said.is, "NRC, -if you think ELD should go to 97, find two spaces for them. 11 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Except from Licensing. MR. BARRY: Yes, except from Licensing. I I i I CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: MPA has a level pre-'80 supplement of what here? It goes down, it comes up, it goes down. Well, it says '76. Does that assume anything? MR. BARRY: That's a transfer of two people from other areas into ~.tPA, agreed-upon transfer. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay, so that is correct. International programs is at what strength now? 28,

ar9 1* - 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 91 I 10 I I I II I l ii ! 1 '>.... l I 13 I 14 15 16 18 19 20 I 21 22 23 24 '-::e-FE'derel Reporters, Inc. 25 isn't.it? MR. BARRY:

28.

We had hoped to go to 32, but they would be standing at 28 as far as any additional authorization or appropriation is concerned. 10 CHAIRll.l.AN HENDRIE: In state programs, is it 28 or i I I j 27?i i I MR. BARRY: They are at 27, and we hope to increase i them by one. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: We've loaned them how many people? MR. GOSSICK: They've got four people. Bob, you want to come on up? COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: How many people do you have on loan? MR. RYAN: I've got three people on loan from NRR. We expected to have four, but one of those gentlemen retired recently. assume. books. loan? COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: After being loaned? MR. RYAN: Before being loaned. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: NRR gets credit for that, I MR. RYAN: I don't know how that is carried on the The question is be¥ond me. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: So you have three people on MR. RYAN: We have three people on loan from NRR

arl0 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 11 13 i4 15 16 17 18 until October 1, 1979. MR. GOSSICK: I think that's a floating date. MR. RYAN: I think that's what the paper says. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

27.

11 MR. BARRY: Other than what Bob will have to say here in a couple of moments, the only other significant difference between requests and what the BRG and the NRR permitted was in the EDO. You can see 17 versus 5, or a difference of 13. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Excuse me. In 1980, with the supplemental is to be four? MR. BARRY: Without the supplemental. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Without the supplemental. Nothing was asked for the supplemental?: MR. BARRY: Nothing was asked for the supplemental. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: So that was an increase being proposed of 13? MR. BARRY: Yes. There are two areas that are 19 [I very large. One was simply about half of the people to help I 20 21 22 24 manage the Title IV and Title XI acts, which are the acts that require all government agencies to in effect police any contractor -- in our case, licensees and/or contractors -- to ensure discriminatory practices are not condoned, and so on. There is a paper the ELD has sent out to the .-".C"E--Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 Commission to propose how we would do that.

arll 12 le 2 3 7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: When do you expect that paper? MR. ENGELHARDT: The ELD assumed the burden of assisting in preparation of this paper about a week ago, and the first draft was on my desk yesterday. and sent it up so that it is in process. I marked it up I It should be hopefull~ down to EDO by the end of this week, or early next week. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Well, if we are going to s make a budget decision based on that, we really would have 9 to have it certainly no later than the beginning of next week. 10 MR. GOSSICK: Let me ask Tom if he can indicate how 11 1 we come out with regard to resources as a result of the consider!a-12 tion of the policy paper. 13 MR. ENGELHARDT: Roug!1ly the way-the resources would 14 go is it would probably involve one, no more than two, 15 additional personnel to deal with the policing aspects of the 16 program. MR. GOSSICK: I think another factor here -- 18 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Is that the understanding 19 I also of Mr. Tucker, who is sitting here? 20 I MR. TUCKER: No, it is not. 21 MR. ENGELHARDT: I am not sure he has seen the 22 paper that we are proposing, and as I say, this is our 23 preliminary shot. We may come with a different attitude. 24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: At most, it would end up "':"t'-FPderal Reporters, Inc. 25 being your recommendation?

arl2 II 13 2 3 4 5 MR. ENGELHARDT: That's correct. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:

• we might interpret dif ferentl_w but that is why it is really critical to get the paper.

MR. GOSSICK: Now let me add that I think really in fiscal year 'BO, I am going to have to do something in the 6 II way of an overage basis or whatever of allowing the acquisition 7 II of one more staff, as soon as we can find the proper person. 8 II We had a loan in there, who just left the agency, so I agreed 9 !I I 10 11 I I I-I ti ~ ~ 13 that it does need additional professional staff person in there to help process it, taking it on. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Since we are talking about this, what is the status of the study, which I noticed is one of the reasons that I think BRG said you would have to defer 14 ii until the r~sults of the study? That study seems to be taking 15 16 I 17 ! 18 19 a very long time to get out interms of -- [Commissioner Gilinsky arrived at 11:50.] MR. GOSSICK: I believe -- has the RSF gone out? Mr. Rheirn has been chairing the source in this on that, and the money has been a~located to allow us to proceed, 20 II and it is my impression that it is ready to go out. Tom is I 21 22 ,L,) 24 Ii on leave this week, but I'll check and be sure. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Would you ask him? MR. GOSSICK: Pardon me? COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: That's that study, the EDO ~ -:-c--FPderal Reporters, Inc. 25 study, remember?

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25 .CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, contracting takes years. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: It helps to get the RFP out. MR. GOSSICK: Well, we hav~n't had the decision really all that long in our hands to go ahead. somebody to -- I have to find COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Could you let me know, though? MR. GOSSICK: Yes, we'll get you the COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: You will do all possible to remedy that. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, I believe the others numbers involved in the increases are twos and threes, so we can handle those during mark-up. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Could I ask a question now? I know Bob is here, and we are going to get the state programs, but let me just ask a question. There were two additional people asked, and it wasn't clear the way the BRG's line item was led to interpret that they had asked the person in health safety to -- in '80, and the conclusion is they don't need it in '81? MR. BARRY: That was our conclusion, but you might want to hear from Jim Shea, in their reclama. I be.lieve the justification changed somewhat from what we had received in the budget. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Just to make sure I under-stand, also is BRG's position as far as safeguards went,

arl4 2 3 4 I 15 international safeguards, that really on NMSS, would that reliance include dealing with the State Department and the CIA? MR. BARRY: : No, it would not, but we felt that the amount of effort involved there was so small, it really ~ \\i

i *' didn't justify, but we do feel very positively about the four 6

7 8 lf 1 ; 11 that were lost in '80, something ought to be done to restore those. With that, I will defer to Bob Ryan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to ask Mr. Collins and Mr. Kerr to join us at the table. MR. RYAN: Our reclama deals with people for our office of agreements states, and I'd like to also discuss

• ~ !I several other items which are currently called satisfied, and 15 16 11

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I' II II 20 !I 2i I 22 24 tell you what our rationale is and what our intention would be if that money were made available. The first one, as I say, is a reclama, having to do with slots and people who are working with the uranium mill tailings legislation enacted into law last year. Mr. Kerr, do you want to talk about that? MR. KERR: Thank you, Bob. COMMISSIONER AHEAR~E: Excuse me, Ed. I want to get back to you. MR. KERR: What I understand has been considered as .l>,~-Federa! Reporters, Inc. 25 the 'Bl budget, I would note that we have asked for a full-time

arl5 2 3 4 5 6 7 sl i 91 14 15 16 18 19 1 I 20 I 2i 22 24 -~ "'c'-FP:iera! Reporters, Inc. 25 16 temporary in the mill tailings -area in 1980, which we have no decision on yet, it will be decided in another arena. 19 81. We are reclaming. for three full-time permanent in This would reduce, by the way, from something like five overall in the office, to three. And to implement the Mill Tailings Act, we have the grants to be done in fiscal year 1980, with probably a little bit of spillover into 1981. I It requires a new training program for state personne:1, I extensive negotiations on agreements for at least four and I i possibly as many as nine states, as we see it right now, involve~ I with procedures, statutes, staffing, and so on. i COMMISSIONER AHEAR'T\\JE:. How many states? MR. KERR: A minimum of four, definitely; possibility of as many of as nine, as I see it, in the current agreement states. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Is NMSS involved in this process, and to what extent do you expect it to be involved in your negotiations with the states? [Commissioner Bradford departed at 11:45.] MR. KERR: Well, I think primarily the negotiations would be handled, getting a.11 the material that we need from the states, evaluat~ all these things that we just mentioned, we will take the NMSS regulations once they are promulgated in final form and use those certainly as the standard which

arl6 17 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i ii we will require for the Mill Tailings Act. We are actually reviewing statutes in connection with ELD and procedures process in the application and using, you know, kind of our own system as a point of reference as to how much staff and so forth is needed. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Would you be doing all the reviews;> MR. KERR: We will be doing the bulk of it. There are certain aspects that we will be working certainly with 10 Ii 11 NMSS and with Legal, particularly Legal is very heavily II , ' !l

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2i 22 23 24 involved in negotiating an agreement. You know, I think the developing ~riteria and things. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: But as far as the* Mill Tailings Act is concerned, is it -- there's the review that you would be doing, would it be with respect to the provisions of that act, and therefore the provisions of licensing current jurisdictions? MR. KERR: The negotiated agreements have to do with getting them in place so they can continue to regulate if they so choose. It's the preparatory work so that they can carry it out after 1981. -~,s,;-Federal Reporters, Inc. Now, however, starting in 1981, there is a shift to ongoing review work. Right now the way we are working, of course, with NMSS, is providing direct assistance to them 25 on environmental assessment.

arl7 2 3 4 18 We feel that because of the nature of the industry and the subject, that we would have to spend more time when we do go out and do the regular reviews, and reviewing plant material at that time also. s I q Now, I think the justification is that the payoff is 6 I I very great. 7 [Commissioner Bradford returned at 11: 50.] 8 These states come in -- it is my understanding that 9,I II NMSS on a new case spends approximately a manyear and up to lj 1* 10 1! i: $150,000 to $160,000 a year. That's roughly equivalent to H

i :i about three total manyears.

12 So if you get one new case in these four to nine 13 agreement states in_fhese ~ears, it's an even swap, as I see it. Ii 14 1.1 But if they handle one case a year -- and I think we are 15 I amongst all the agreement states and back to the EDO mark, was 16 !! not to approve anything in this area, and the effect is that ~-:- ii I

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'I we don't have very much flexibility in many of our areas. The prime area of flexibility is in the review I I 1 ~! ! ! 11 20 Ii 1: program, and if we, you know, have to do the mill work, it seems! I to me like the review progra.rn as it exists now would have to be I 21 I cut back. 22 Now there is a new issue --i 24 I c -::e-Federal Reporters, Inc. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: When you said in mill work, cutting back -- 25 MR. KERR: If we have to take the effort

arl8 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 14 15 16 ,s I 19 I! 1: 20 ii I I ~* i .t..t 22 23 24 ~,;,.-Ff'd~ral Reporters, Inc. 25 19 out of existing staff to do this mill work with the people we have on board, then something has to suffer. The main area of flexibility is what we do currently in review. MR. RYAN: I should point out the total for the state agreement program is 10 people; eight professionals, and two clerical. MR. KERR: Now we have a new issue that bears on this, and this is Commissioner Gilinsky 1 s*memorandum of July 20th. It indicates we would improve our monitoring of state performance. If that implies that we spend more time in more depth on existing programs outside the mill program, that has implications of staffing also. We have asked for.two people in FY '78, '79, 'BO, and we got nothing -- COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: What would they do? MR. KERR: Generally, as I understand the thrust of the thing, it would imply that we would spend more time when we go out and do the reviews, spend more time with inspections, perhaps look at -- certainly look at more files. But I think that's what I read into it, anyway. The more in-depth inspections. MR. RYAN: This was a commitment that was made to the Udall committee a week ago, a week ago Thursday, at the time of the testimony of Commissioner Gilinsky. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Is this commitment in the

arl9 2 3 20 written testimony? MR. RYAN: Yes. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: What was the nature of the 4 commitment? 5 MR. RYAN: We would revise the criteria under 6 which the states for the program was monitored, to look more 7 closely at providing technical assistance to the agreement 8 states, and increase the level of our scrutiny, deductive 9 review of the agreement state programs. 10 1 i 13 i4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: What did you have in mind? COM..MISSIONER KENNEDY: You assess this to be the equivalent of two manyears? MR. KERR: Get*to that point -- MR. RYAN: This* came up after th.e point that we l5 were making this reclama. We suggest that some time we need 16 21 22 23 i additional help in the mill area. Our point today is that if we are to do this work in the mill area, and if we are to carry out this commitment which has been made in the past, we are going to need additional help. That 1 s basically it. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: And the amount of the additional help associated with the commitment you assess* to be approximately two manyears? MR. KERR: No, we haven 1 t got to that point yet, 24 Commissioner. .">~-Federal Reporters, Inc. I said we had asked for two. We 1ve had no 25

increase since the early '70s.

We 1 ve had one new state come

ar20 21 2 3 4 5 6 7 I I 8 ! Ii 9 !i,, ii 10 Ii *' :i I' n !! i1 ~L 13 i4 15 16 18 [S1 I! ,I 'I 20 !1 II 21 I 22 24 .~ (:'f-Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 in, states are tending to split agencies, and then we go review both of those agencies, and that increases their work, their own number of licenses increase. And I might mention that the task force in the agreement state in late '77 that reviewed the program and explained to them in detail, and they concluded that no particular change was needed at that time. So if the implication is we need to do more in depth, we need some guidance on how much more in-depth and so on. I say we've asked for two in the past. It gets to the question of, you know, how many times do you look over their shoulder? Every case we do it now on a scale size. We do more in California and Texas than we do in New Hampshire, which is a small state. So the summary on the reclama is that the direction was the three full-time permanents in '81 for the mill case, but this other issue certainly bears on things, as of today. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I guess what we need then is some kind of a definition of this new issue, extended or whatever it is, together with a resource requirement, so that we can act on it. MR. RYAN: We are trying to do that, yes. While we are on the subject of agreement states, I think I'd like to raise an item which has been identified as

ar21 22 a set-aside for FY '82, and it concerns seed money for the 2 agreement states. 3 I might point out this was -- it's a million dollar 4 I item. This was a recommendation that also came out of your I 5 I task force on the agreement state program which filed its I 6 ! report on the agreement states in December of 1977. 7 It was pointed out in that report that in the closing 8 i_ days of the AEC, a similar request has been made, and the AEC II

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said, 11 Let us defer this until the coming into force of the new Nuclear Regulatory Commission, because we wouldn't want 11 to commit those folks to something in advance.

So let us look ,i !I

• -~ :: at that when NRC comes into existence.

11 And it's been raised q 1~ *1i periodically since that time.

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Each time it's been deferred or set aside, or "we' 11 I i5 I consider that at some future time. 11 16 I The rationale of the task force report is this:

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1 ' !It at it would be desirable as a matter of national policy to ii 18 !ihave the vast majority of material licenses, that is small !9 Ii licenses, medical, industrial, radiography and so on, regulated I: 20 !\\by the states rather than by the federal government.

I Ii 21 \\

As it stands now, we have 12,000 licenses regulated 22 by the agreement states, approximately; and about 8000 regulated 23 by the NRC. 24 The task force suggests that we look to the day

~-:;'-Federal Reporters, Inc.

25 when the vast majority of those licenses are regulated by the

ar22 2 3 4 5 6 7 23 states, recognizing that it will probably never come to pass that all states would join the program. We had a recent example of the problem of money with the state of Michigan, the governor of Michigan, Milliken, wrote us a letter and said yes, he'd like agreement state status, yes, he would be very interested in it, yes, he will try to seek some additional funds from the legislature in the 8 \\ next session to achieve that. 1i Ii 9! The seed money concept, which has been talked about for, I guess, close to nine years now, is not a continuing piece of business. It is a one-shot proposition, and under it the NRC would Erovide start-up money for states to allow them to join the _agreement state program. ii

• 14 I'm talking about enormous sums of money.

I'm 15 talking about sums geared to the states in question. For 16 17 18 1 S' 20 21 22 24 instance, which is now shortly to be before you, we have 50 licenses. In Illinois, you have 758 licenses, I guess. Michigan, 700, and so on. So the funds that would-proceed from the NRC pre*sumably under a regulation which we would devise in our policy statement would be tailored to the circumstances of the individual state. ~-~-FPdera! Reporters, Inc. Obviously you'd get more on Michigan than you would in Rhode Island. We are thinking in terms of 50 or 25

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25 24 60,000 dollars or something like that over the larger states, and a somewhat lesser sum for the smaller states. This fund would be used to purchase equipment, to train people, to hire individuals in the first instance, and for work in the program to set up file systems, to do the physical details attendant to an agreement states status with the NRC. Wayne, do you want to add anything to that? CHAIRV.LA.N HENDRIE: How appropriate is it to be funding state personnel here? If the state is going to be an agreement state, they're pretty well going to have to face up to it and provide ~taffing for it. We might provide funds for the first six months for a two-pe~son office. If the state isn't right behind the thing with an appropriation for the long term, why, it's not going anywhere, and it's not so clear to me that's -- equipment is a little bit different, or particularly in the state government climate where, after all, the hiring of people means people's husbands, wives, cousins, uncles, brothers, and generally regarded with enthusiasm COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: In many states, generally that's not CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I'd be very surprised.if there weren't considerable enthusiasm. [Commissioner Kennedy departed at 12:08.J

ar24 2 3 4 7 25 B:ut ofttimes equipment is a touchy item, and I $20,000 worth, say, of radiation, you know, poa:;table radiation monitoring instruments can be practically an insurmountable problem in the state process. MR. RYAN: I agree. We are not talking about a continuing funding program\\ for states. What we are talking about is a program which i 8 I would allow states to gear up in a rapid-fire fashion. There ii I! 9 !1 ii' I, 10 I! iS 16 ,~,! ~ / :i !i 18 !I

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1i ii 'I 20 I I I 2i 22 23 24 are Civil Service requirements in most states that I am familiar, with. It takes time to work with those requirements fully. Wha_t they can do with this kind of an assistance is. provide temporary salaries for temporary employees until their fµll Civil Service system can take effect. In other words, you can put a person on in January instead of waiting for the forms on the other kind of business to work its way through, it might be August. Also, it takes into account the vagaries of state legislature, where in some cases you are talking about a two-year -- every other year for the state legislation to meet, and this would allow a program to begin even before the legislature had authorized and appropriated some funds. It's an assist. It 1 s a boost over the fence, really, and it's .~.-:,o-FP.derai Reporters, Inc. not intended to be, nor would I support the idea, of a continued program of NRC or any other agency in the federal government funding individual salaries and programs along 25

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25 26 that.line. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay, why don't we move ahead. MR. RYAN: We have two other items which are identified as set-asides. bne of them has to do with grants to the states in connection with emergency preparedness. This is an item which has been authorized in the Senate version of our authorization bill for FY '80. I'd like Mr. Collins to talk about this, and tell you what we have in mind, and where this fund would go if it were authorized and appropriated and came into our program. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Let me just clear up, before you plunge ahead, the last item, seed money to states for the agreement states to encourage them to become agreemept states. Is that in '82? MR. RYAN: '82, FY '82 is 1 million, right. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Of course, when the agreement state program was set up, quite a point was made of the fact that -- well, it's been a long time ago, but that there would be no federal money -- MR. RYAN: Well, as you said yourself, Commissioner, in your testimony, a lot of things have changed since 1959. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I was just making the point that it is a major departure from the program. MR. RYAN: Well, the only way it could come to pass

ar26 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1 -= 27 would be if Congress validated it, and if Congress validated it, presumably they would accept the rationale. If they didn't, we would be back to where we were before. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, I suggest that there ought to be a pretty good reason for it. MR. RYAN: Sure. I think you £ind the rationale in well, the continued debate on this item for this Commission an~ the previous Commission over the years, and also this most recent task force report of various offices dealing with this problem in December of '77. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I guess one of the things 121! we might do is go back to Governor Milliken, and say how much , 'l 14 15 16 money. You recall he's the one who at first said no way, and NRC kept on saying well, will you take it this way; no. Take it this way; no. And finally the last effort, he said all ~ight, yes, I will agree, but I don't have any money. So 17 Ii that's going to be a big question, how much money. 18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I guess I'm troubled about 19 our habit of pushing these agreements. You know, there is a 20 11 program for states to accept certain responsibilities we 21 11 then share with them, and we come to an agreement. 22 MR. RYAN: Well, Milliken is a good example, I 23 11 think. Milliken has said in Michigan that he is prepared to 24 accept the program, but that he hasn't budgeted for it, because _,c.GE-Federni Reporters, Inc. 25 of the long budget cycle in the state of Michigan, and the fact

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'Hi -'. V 22 23 II l1 I !i II ii Ii 'I It li jl ii if II he has to go back to the legislature. They have the same type of thing in many states that we do, we look in terms of five-year budgets. What this would do would not basically change that determination by having to accept, or the offer by us to accept. What it would do would allow this thing to take place sooner than it otherwise would take place. kind. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, it's a sweetener of a I don 1 t think you can represent it as anything other than that. MR. RYAN: The view of m?st states, by the way, when we comple*fea the work on this task force: report and circulated to the states, in most states this would be desirable. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Bob, do we have a conclusion that -- has the NRC taken the position that the public health and safety is improved by having the agreement states? MR. RYAN: No, we have queried the CEQ on whether it would be necessary to perform an environmental impact statement analysis pri"or to accepting a state into the agree-ment state fold, and their answer was no. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Now my question really is ~. ii ' 4 l that if we are going out for a sweetener and encouragement, _l,_cE-Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 a strong encouragement to the states to be involved, I can

ar28 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 12 14 15 16 29 understand Wayne's argument as laid out in the mill tailings, that on balance it might be less cost option if you go that way. But my question was have we concluded that as far as public health and safety is concerned, that the public health and safety is improved by having an agreement state in the agreement state then doing these things as opposed to the NRC doing it? MR. RYAN: I don't think we have concluded in so many words. I think what we must conclude under the statute is that the program presented is adequate to protect public health and safety, and ls compatible with the program of the federal program, as an impro'vement. I don't know that - COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Right. Well, I can see us being required to ensure that before we entered into an agreement with a state that the public health and safety is ~ 7 i;

• :! adequately protected, but before we would go out and actively 21 22 23 24

-~-~-Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 try to encourage and go to Congress and say, well, let's take some money to assist these states getting there, I would think that we would have reached the conclusion that it would be an advantage. MR. RYAN: I think it is an advantage, but it -- CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I think, John, the fact that Section 2.74 of the Atomic Energy Act exists, saying the Commission is authorized, you don't normally pass pieces of

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~ *:*, l j 11 20 I l 21 I 22 30 legislation saying to an agency, you are authorized to do this thing, but our understanding is you are not too keen on it, an.a we don't expect you to do anything about it. Normally when the Congress legislates an authoriza-tion to an agency in some areas of responsibility or some mission, they do so with the expectation th"at there will l::5e some action. So I think it's pretty hard to read the legislative history of the Atomic Energy Act and conclude that the intent in Section 2.74 was to provide an authority which was only to be used if one could see perceptible health and safety COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: John was making the distinction between -- MR. RYAN: I might point out COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: between coming to agreements and actually going all out to seek adherence, and Congress did make quite a point at that time, if you are going back to that original amendment, of underlining the fact that no federal funds were to go to the states as part of the program. CHAIW.LAN HENDRIE: I'm not arguing for or against the seed money concept, but only agains.t what seems to me to 23 be an underlying current here, that the agreement state ii 24 program is a poor thing and we ought to have done with it. . ~:~-Feder.:! Reporters, Inc. 25 If that's the sentiment, why, I'd like for people to make it

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'I 11 1, 1311,, 1J i4 ii i5 18 ,._ I, i 'i 11 20 I 21 I 22 23 24 .t-.~-Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 31 explicit. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I'm not sure whether you -- I was asking the question -- MR. RYAN: I might point out that the language in the 2.74 is mandatory. The Commission "shall" accept the agreement state agreement provided the conditions are met; it's not 11may. 11 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, provided it can CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, and so it is for the issuance and maintenance of all licenses. MR. RYAN: Yes, indeed. Okay, let's, if I may, turn to the proposal for set-aside item for grants, for emergency-preparedness, grants to state and local governments, which as, I mentioned, is authorized in the Senate version of the FY 'BO authorization bill. Mr. Collins. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: MR. RYAN: No. Is that in the FY '80 provisijn? I COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: So that's already been throug' Congress, and so it is not -- no funds. MR. COLLINS: This concept appears in the report of the committee on environment, public works, to accompany S. 562, in that it says -- talks about initial grants to state and local governments for emergency planning.

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u /; 18 I i 20 i i I 21 22 23* I .lsce-Fe::ieral Reporters, Inc. 25 32 The amount of money we are talking about here, this half million dollars, we envision it to be used in some key problem areas, particularly at the local government level, where there seems to be a real funding problem to get something moving there. Commissioner Gilinsky met with some local government people. I was at that meeting a month and a half, two months ago, from New York. These were representatives of five counties around the Indian Point facility, and no commitments were made to them, just to exchange information and look at any proposal that they might come in with. We haven't received any proposal, but it is areas like that, and also areas around i the Connectic~t Yankee facility, where there are a lot of littl~ townships and no real ability to pull an emergency plan together for those communities. Another example is Lake County near Zion. We'd like to be able to get into those local governments with some modest wherewithal so that they can improve the situation, and many of them just haven't got the wherewithal to do it yet. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Would you envision this as being a one-shot or a continuing sort of a subsistence, :program? MR. RYAN: I think I envision it, if I may, as a one-shot,pDopositiorr,because there is help in the wings in the form of FEMA, which has come into existence under the President's executive order two weeks ago. Mr. Macy has

ar32 2 3 4 I s I I 61 7 8 33 been confirmed. CHAIW.!A.N HENDRIE: He has been confirmed? MR. RYAN: He has been confirmed by the Senate, now in office and ready to go. The component agencies from the Department of Defense, Emergency Preparedness Agency from HUD, Disaster Assistance Administration carry with them the authority to make grants to state and local governments in connection with the emergencies generally, and our discussions 9 with Mr. Macy indicate that this is a matter high on his 10 priority list. He knows --.I was amazed to.learn that he 11 had been out to Los Alamos in '47, '48, 1 49, he knows the

2 workings of the Atomic Energy Commission.

He cares very much 13 about the idea of emergency preparedness. 14 S6 I think that in the long haul, the work with i5 counties and with states, providing money to states, would 16 come through FEMA, as it should, and I think it is the intention 17 of the executive order and the reorganization plan to husband i I 1 1 under that one umbrella all of the emergency preparedness 1 grants and money flow to the states and local governments I 20 tn perpetuity. 21 So I see it as a one-shot proposition and not as a 22 continuing item which will be back and forth, again and again 23 and again. 24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Just then as a -- since to ~-Ft!deral Reporters, Inc. 25 there is a lot of philosophy being discussed here -- philosophical

ar33 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 91 10 I 11 11 ii li 11 ii 1 '! I -~ I 14 15 16 n\\ 1 s I ,.., I t ' i I Ii 20 21 22 23 24 .t_s-!--Fe-deral Reporters, Inc. 25 34 point, why shouldn't the utility customers provide that money? MR. RYAN: I think the utilities should provide money in the long haul, also. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: In other words, the rate-payers -- MR. RYAN: Well, ultimately the ratepayers would probably in the rate basis as a necessary business expense for utilities. I think they should, and I think that's the direction a lot of states are going in. For instance, the Illinois legislature recently passed a bill which is awaiting Gov. Thompson's signature which will levy a fee on the utilities within the state ,I think it is $390,000, which will be parceled out to the state agencies, through the state agencies to local government agencies around the state to -- COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: But you do see this as a one-shot? MR. RYAN: I see it as a one-shot, and I see it as COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: One-shot, perhaps, because following this FEMA -- MR. RYAN: FEMA, and I think we ought to encourage as a matter of policy, the Commission ought to encourage as a mat"ter of policy, the idea that utilities should contribute to the support of local government entities which are trying J

ar34 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 9 I 10 12 15 16 35 to plan for emergencies around the -- COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Could you just say a couple words about why $500,000, why not a million, why not 250,000? MR. RYAN: We envision this as modest grants to I individuals, as Mr. Collins said, mostly the counties, sometimes! I the townships, but mostly the local government agencies as distinguished from states. factor COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Is there any underlying X plants times Y dollars? MR. RYAN: Not quite that simple. We think, for instance, in the Indian Point situation, if we were able to give say $5000 to each of the three -- four surrounding counties, we would be in a better position than otherwise. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Yes, I'm sure of that. I was just trying to probe for is there an argument that says that the right rough number is a half a million as opposed ,, d 1 l! to twice that, or half of that? 18 20 21 22 23 24 .~ce-Fe::!eral Reporters, Inc. 25 MR. RYAN: We took the number of counties involved and we figured modest sums for those countries. tions. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Number of counties times 5000? MR. RYAN: No, not all counties are in dire situa-Some counties receive a great deal of money by virtue of the fact that the facility is located there. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Could you give me that piece of paper? Thank you.

ar35 36 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 12 13 14 15 16 I I I ~7 Ii ,1 i i8 I I 19 II I 20 21 22 23 24 I ~ c--Federa! Reporters, Inc. 25 MR. RYAN: .I think it's on the back of an envelope. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay, this is a set-aside in the '80 supplement. MR. RYAN: Right. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: There is another chunk to it. Could we cover that rapidly, please. MR. RYAN: It's ARAC, atmospheric release advisory capability. I will ask Mr. Collins to go into it. MR. COLLINS: Currently the ARAC program which was developed by Lawrence Livermore Laboratory, exists. It was used, but not hard-wired into the accident situation at Three Mile Island, but the Department.of Energy's own facilitie are on the ARAC sy?tem.. What it is, it is a real time meteorolog~cal accident assessment. I think you are all familiar with it. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: This is hooked up to some monster computer? MR. COLLINS: A monster computer, and a nice little one, right. This fiscal year state programs in NRR, each put $50,000 into a feasiblity study with Lawrence Livermore to do two things: From an NRR standpoint, to take a look at the utility of the system from a licensee's viewpoint. They use the Rancho Seco Nuclear Station. For state program's interest,

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-~- ii tL i1 I! II 13 I i I i4 15 16 37 $50,000 to take a look at the utility of ARAC with respect to the California Office of Emergency Services. We e~pect that those reports from Lawrence Livermore will be to us in the fall. We already have the draft report that covers the licensee half and state and local government half will come along in a couple of months. Based on the findings of that modestly funded study concept of tying in licensee, state and local government to the ARAC system, you would like to keep this ARAC concept alive, because right now there isn't anything better in terms of automatic accident assessment, that we know of. There are systems which are be.ing talked about, which are being independently explored by a few utilities, but there isn't anything that's put together right now. We'd like to move forward in succeeding years into possibly getting ARAC installed in the county areas around 17 Ii Indian Point, where we feel that more definitive emergency 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 i _Ar,,9.Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 planning has to be done for those communities, because of their population and density situation. We think this can be done, you know, for a site like that, and maybe one other, for about $300,000 or $400,000 over a three or four-year period. We'd like to see if we can't get something like that in place. The other site we have in mind is Zion.

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!I I ' i l [ I, [! I CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Well, I think the thrust is clear enough that this is l0O~K, which is also an '80 supplement set-aside. MR. RYAN: And that's also 100-K in 1 81 through '83. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Is anyone looking at any alternative systems that would have, you know, independent capabilities if the reactor is based on rather more limited computers? MR. BARRY: We might ask NRR that, because they also invested in this; in fact, they are the guys who got into it first, and there is money in the budget, in NRR, for this project. You.might find out. We know the project guy. We might ask h.im that question.' MR. RYAN: I don't know of any systems. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: I must say that my inclina-tion is that the simpler system based on reactors is preferable n I CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: That's an argument that I was ii 'i8 II making, I don't know, last year or the year before. I guess

• 1s ii I have considerably less problem with these rather modest 20 ii expenditures which keep us in good touch with the system and I.

I 2 i I where it is going and what its capabilities are, and look for 22 23 24 ways to make use. We feel here we are committed to embrace ARAC, merely to keep track of it and see what else there is around. . ~ce-Federal Reponers, Inc. 25 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: This had been jointly funded

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39 with NRR; is that correct? MR. RYAN: For this fiscal year. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Is this new phase that you are talking about still going to be coordinated with NRR? MR. RYAN: It's going to be coordinated, but my understanding is that NRR has not budgeted for a continuation 7 of ARAC. I don ' t know. 8 9 10 14 15 16 . ~ ii u Ii I rn I --- I

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_./)_~-Federal Reporters, Inc, 25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: So you put the 100-K in so it will -- it would, if allowed, be your money, but you would coordinate? MR. RYAN: We will not coordinate it, they can have it if they want it. It's not a pride of ownership. MR. BARRY: No, but they have an application, they are looking at it from strictly a plant standpoint. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Let's see if we can move ahead and finish it. MR. RYAl\\1: Thank you. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Does that do it? MR. RYAN: That does it. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Let me ask a question, then. The assumption you have, if eight people asked for the supplemental for the,/:Valuated from state emergency plan, is that based on the assumption that we will continue this pressure that we have already placed on the governors? MR. RYAN: Yes, I think the figure comes from a

ar39 40 memorandum which I wrote to Mr. Gossick back in April. 2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Because my question is if 3 as a result of the rulemaking or as a result of Congressional 4 action, we end up making mandatory the concurrence, what then 5 would be your number? 6 MR. RYAN: I think it would probably be slightly 7 more, but I think that would suffice for the period. 8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: How about '81? i 9 ! MR. RYAN: Probably three or four additional. I 10 I COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Could you just think about 11 ii that and get back to us? 12 MR. RYAN: I'd be happy to. 13 1 I might say that i*t looks "like we are going to go I I 14 i the mandatory route if the Senate bill is enacted. 15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: And also consider -- I am 16 \\ surprised that you had no program support monies in that 17 area.- 18 MR. RYAN: We did, in a sense. Those were reported by the Senate environment for public works within their authorizal-20 tion bill. They mentioned program support for iodine 21 monitoring. 22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I'm looking at your budget 23 reque*St, though, because as I think we are all familiar, ifj.. :the 2, I ~ authorization committee says you can spend money, and the /',ce-Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 appropriations committee does not give it to you, then it's a

ar40 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 t '; 12 , 13 1 A 15 16 21 22 24 /-\\ce-Federai Reporters, Inc. 25 41 reallocation within the agency, and so we ought to be looking at what ought you to be requesting. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: You know, the current -- let's see, what is the current office request? 42 in people? MR. RYAN: For '81, 42. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: And the difference of five from the EDO mark are the three in the agreement states. Where are the other two? CO:fv.lJ:.HSSIONER AHE/1...RNE: Two in -- MR. RYAN: Well, one of them was the state liaison officer, I guess. Marie, can you help me on that? COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: T-hree clerical and two in uranium mill tailings. MR. RYAN: Why is that 42 versus 37? Where is the other five? CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Say it again for me. Are they all in the agreement states area? COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Well, three are clerical assistants for the state program staff. MR. RYAN: Right. They would be di v,ided among emergency preparedness and program development. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Very good. Thank you, gentlemen. Before we break, I'd like to hear a few words from Ed Tucker on that Title IV and VI six. You want to come on up,

ar41 2 3 4 42 Ed. Let 1 s*see,:there's a difference of 12 there, and we have a paper coming along which will apparently recommend that the overview of the Title IV and VI provisions 5 II your view was that that was -- didn't cover everything 'i 6 might riot cover everything. you thought important. 7 8 9 i I 10 i ! i 'i *.: I , r, i ,_ l l i

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~ )' ! 20 I 2i 22 23 24 we Why don't you give us a 30-second shot of your view? MR. TUCKER: When we started, we had provisions, had Title VI of the Civil Rights Act to enforce, which l, I I J..S federal financial assistance programs, against discriminatio~. i We also had Title IV of the organization act I i I which prohibits sex discrimination in federally assisted programs and all Commission licensing pctivities. Now we have the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, whic was effective July 1, which is tied to Title VI also. The issue problem with the Title IV situation is that there was an initial determination made at the time of the reorganozation as to where or how that should be applied in the Commission regulations. Then Part 2.111, which prohibits this Commission which prohibits licensees from discriminating in their employment practices, and since it is in Part 19, the sanctions are the civil penalties, or revocation of the license. COM.MISSIONER AHEARNE: But the civil penalties are l:!,r.-e-Fc-deral Reporters, Inc. 25 available?

ar42 43 2 3 4 9 10 iS 16 7' _t 22 23 24 .~,~-Federai Reporters, Inc. 25 MR. TUCKER: Well, the problem is we have never developed an enforcement mechanism. I've brought this to the Commission's attention in the spring of '75. Determination was made by OGC for some reason that we did not have the statutory authority to deal with employment practices, so nothing has happened with it in four years. Now the Department of Justice is saying that we have to develop the enforcement mechanisms,post notices in all the licensees' facilities, address the prohibition in the Federal Register. Now we are trying to figure out how to enforce it. I think that even though determinatiorr is made initially with the Commission as _to how we interpret, r think that this was something that was discretionary, back in '74, maybe in '75, but four years later I don't think the Commission really has that much latitude in terms of determining just how it should be applied to the Commission regulations. So even though we develop an enforcement mechanism, we still have these basic statutory requirements that we have never addressed, which we have to address, and that's the reason why I say the minimum we need is one person now to come to grips with the Title VI, Title IV and age discrimination act provisions, and based on what the Commission decided to *do in terms of enforcement, this might very well entail four, five, six or seven more people, in terms of not L

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, 1 ,~ 1 A. 15 !6 17 18 19,, !I I 20 I I I 21 :1 22 I 23 2A. '°'.':'2-F!cderai Reporters, Inc. 25 44 really I don't look at it as really policing the licensees, I look at it as providing assistance to the licensees, especially our major licensees, to help them to comply with the regulations. I think it is incumbent upon the Commission to provide that kind of technical assistance to them. That's the reason why I feel that it is not necessarily policing, but assistance to them, and why we need so many people, six more people, at least, to deal with it. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Is the six based upon any kind of factors or how many licensees, the effort per licensee? MR. TUCKER: Well, it depends on to what extent the Commission wants to enforce. I would assume.that you would not attempt to enforce it or provide assistance to all licensees, but just the major licensees. We don't have the capability now to develop complaints of discrimination. We've had one sex discrimination complaint to date. As soon as we publish in the Federal Register and we post the notices, we are going to get more activity. Depending upon the level of activity, there's no telling how many people we will need to coordinate these activities. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Would you see us or EEOC doing the actual investigation? MR. TUCKER: I see EEOC do the investigation. There's still going to have to be some with the licensee after

ar44 2 3 4 I Ii 5 !i 11 11 6 I I ; 7 8 I 9 ll ii 10 Ii I I, i *; !! ,I ~2 ii '1 I 13 I ' i 14 ii i I 15 16 45 the determination by EEOC that there is reasonable cause. So all of these kinds of things. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: In addition, you had recommended some other people, which I guess the BRG said wait for the EEO study. If the EEO study indicates more people are needed, I guess. How would we then manage '81? Would we attempt to shift people? MR. GOSSICK: That's about the only way we could do it. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I think you have one or *two options. You either say, well, we will assume that the study results could be incorporated by shifting people, or you are saying that if the study r,esults ~n people, you put them in the budget, or if it doesn 1t, you take them out. MR. TUCKER: I think the study will really address people in the office of EEO. It will be dealing with the issues, 17 !I and if it impacts on anybody, it will be personnel that I! 21 22 23 24 will need additional people, possibly, say for recruiting efforts and that kind of thing. . t.sf-Fderai Reporters, Inc. I think the understanding with EEOC was mentioned that impacts primarily on OIA, that leaves them the burden of investigating. But it certainly doesn't relieve the EEO office of keeping track of the activities and being the contact here within the agency for EEOC. 25 The problem is that people will look at the office

ar45 2 3 4 I s II 6 7 8 9 10 11 14 15 16 17 i8 20 21 22 23 2, I 4 _.,._r,,s-Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 46 of EEO as an EEO office, and it is not an EEO office, it is a Civil Rights office, because most *agencies had EEO offices dealing with internal EEO matters. But we are dealing with all civil rights matters of the agency. So just about half of our activities are just generally civil rights. One is the White House Task Force, the Justice Department, or Federal Contract Program, or what-not. So it certainly can't be confined just to EEO matters. MR. BARRY: Well, when we made our evaluation, it wasi:i't solely on -- it was trying to define what the case work wa~ going to be, and it appeared that the case work was* going to be about 4rcases per year, and an additional six people on top of the five seemed rather excessive to us for that type of case work, even though some of them can be quite complex, but recognizing as they were today that the auditor and inspector does a lot of the actual processing. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I want to break now. Let me ask the Commissioners, would your schedules allow a 1:30 start? Vic will be back at 2:00 or a little after. He has an appointment that will keep him that long, but he is perfectly willing for us to go ahead with the discussion with the Office of Administration.

ar46 47 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 I 9 !I 10 t l \\j [i ~ 2 I 13 14 15 16 ':.7 18 19 20 21 22

"':f*-Federsl Reporters, Inc.

25 What I'd like to do is come at 1:30 and kick off with the Admin people, if they are here, and we will have to send them out mor lunch. They are out to lunch now. I'd like to try to get them today, rather than sending them back to Bethesda and hauling them back down another day.

recessed, So, 1:30, please, Office of Administration.

Okay. [Whereupon, at 12: 45 p.m., the hearing was to be reconvened at 1:30 p.m., this same day.]

125501013 kap '.JOFFMAN 48 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 < 1 -: 45 p. m. ) 3 4 5 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: ~hy donJt we kick off? (Slide.) M?.. DONUGHu E: For those of you who* may v1onder, 6 this is a couple of things that we~re involved in. which you 7 can see are numerous, coillplicated and disparate. 8 Next slide, please. (Slide.) 10 i i al 1:.hou9h it may not be glamorous, is they cion I t work the i2 agency falls apart. 13 CHAIF:::;AN J-!ENDf-?IE: They aren't only disparate, 14 they're occasionally desperate. 16 t.rn. DONOGHUE: Dk2~,. We have five ciecision units 17 in the office of Admin. and Budgets, Personnel One, which lb was put in for the first time this year which is the 19 conversion oi temporary personnel, which is a set-aside, 20 whic~ I ~ill address later on. Ad~i~istrative Support, 21 which is primarily the procurement of goods and services to 22 enable the Agency to function, and which I'll be addressing 23 specifically. 24 25 (Commissioner Bradford entered the room at 1 :46.) MR. DONOGHUE: Agency Travel, which includes

>25501024 kap 2

3 4 5 49 travel for the Office of Administration -and also travel for interviews.and change of stations for the Agency. Next slide, please. (Slide.) MR~ DOiOGHUE: This is sort of an overall view of o the decision units. The decision units which shows that in 7 ~81 we're getting an increase of 22 people recommended by c the i::DO._ The increase is proposed for each of the uni ts. CO/'.U,.\\ISSIONER AHEARNE: Is the FY '80 number of 284 1U wnat you'll end up naving ~fter the final markup in i 1 Congress? 12 MR. DONOGHUE: I t' s re a 11 y -- 13 MR. BAR~Y~ You'll lose four. MR. DONOGHUE: I'll lose four, unless I get 14 15 restored to five posi-c,i~ns that Mr. Goss1ck reterred to 16 earlier, this ha~ been transfarred on a loan basis to NRR, 17 which was a transfer predicated on the f~ct that the Id Commission had not acted on what they would do with respect 1~ to classification of safeguards. 20 ,;o,*.1 that, the Co mm i ss.ion has acted, 2nc noi*J that 21 the rule setting up the classification programs are in 22 effect, in order for us to handle the clearances and the 23 relationships with the licensees dealing with classified 24 information, we will require the five positions to be 25 restored.

-r2550i 035 kap 50 C Commi_ssioner Gilinsky entered the room at l :4 7.) 2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Are you going to be able to get 3 them back? I assume you are, sihce NRR seems ~o have 4 h'.!~. GOSS I CK: They.1 re not, you knoi\\', ha opy ebout 5 it. 6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: They.1re working on 100 right 7 now. So 6 COJ,iMISSlONEf-, AHEARi*JE~ I think HRR.1 s viev.,as it Y would be working on 15. iO MR. GlSSICK: They've got a new ceiling now, of l l 1 00. 12 COMMISSICHEH AHf.ARNE:. YesT I understand, but they 13 had ~hought they were going to go up 65. 14 l,G. GOSSICK: Oh, yeah. That was before TMI. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE~ Neveitheless, we've eitablished 16 a classification system. Vie are now in conformance with the 17 executive order, and if we don't do that, why, we will be lb explaining -- IY COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: It would be something like 20 280. 21 MR. DONOGHUE: That's right, full-time 22 departments. 23 (Commissioner Gilinsky left the room at 1 :48.) 24 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: So it's really 280 that is the 25 base we_,, re working from, rather than 284. Okay.

2 3 MR. DONOGHUE: Next slide, please. (Slide.) 51 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: And the 326, would be 306.

.:~:. 0u1,.:u:JHUE::

326 vI2s our office request. 3'.')6 5 was t:he Bl-?G and EDO mark. 6 7 8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: All right. MR. DONOGHUE: This chart shows the breakdown by divisions and brsr~c11es with.in Ad,ain. The 9 levels -- 10 CHAI RiiiAN f-fr;mR If::: \\*\\/here would the four come out? 11 Hl-1. DOhOGHU.r::: Two would come from Contracts and 12 two froril Facili1:.ies and Operations. primarily telephone 13 operators. 14 CHAIRi/tAN HE;~DRIE: So those become 56 and 31. ~nd 1:he 1:otal 260. in that column FY 'BJ. 16 MR. DDiWGHUE~ FY '60 -st:a:ffing, right. The next 17 chart descrioes how the increment of 22, where they would go 16 and the functions they would perforra. 19 (Slide.) 20 21 telephone operators. Now this budget was put to bed -- 22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: This 22, I assume tha.t the 23 four you lost would just be a~ded in. 24 25 MR. DONOGHUE: It should be addec' in, right, because this was a cut after the budget was prepared.

kap 52 COMMISSIOi~ER AHEARNE: Two would go back into 2 Facilities for the telephone. 3 4 '.) 6 7 8 y MR. DONOGHuE: For the telephone operators, right. Ci-lAIP.11:l-\\.N HE:l~JRIE.~ So it.,s 62 then, in Facilities and 47 in Contracts. MR. DONOGHUE: Correct. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Plus four in the facilities. MR. DONOGHUE: In the 1 81 column. CONiMISSIUNER AHEAl-frJE: .,81 would be 60, and 45 1 10 but the delta would be increased. 1 l CHA I?.fri.AN hct~JR IE: Oh, I see ho*,.,, you're going -co 12 work that. Okay*. Thank you. 13 14 approved last y~ar on the basis th~t we were having a continuing turnover with operators and tney are really the 16 key to the co :n:n u :: i c e t i on s hub, ahd"in order to 17 assure continuity it was necessary to have permanent people lb in that position. iY The increase of one this year is based on the 20 workload the operators are essucing~ and also particularly 21 during off-duty hours and Saturdays, there's one operator. 22 She is not only involved with the telephone. She also has 23 to run the FAX, the teletypes. There's a need a-c times, I 24 think a current need, that we should have more than one 25 opera tor on this

• 1.1.ong shifts
• r25501068 I

k.ap

e.

2 3 4 53 The other position is really for a communications coordinator who would be responsible for the development and engineering of these additional communications systems such as the reactor cbmmunications system that was set up as a 5 result of ThrBe Mile Island. Plans to include a much more 6 sophisticated communication between the headquar~ers, the 7 regions and the licensee facllities are going to require a G level of sophistication that \\'le do not currently have. y 10 (Commissioner Gilinsky entered the room at 1 :50.) co;,.;MISSIOrH::R AHEARi~E: /Jhy would that be in your l l opera-cion as opposed to I&E or NRR? 12 MR. DONOGHUE: l\\iell, the communications aspect of 13 it, we're responsible for it on an agency-wide basis. 14 15 C()/,ii,\\ISSIONEf-? AHEARNE: Vvhat ubout the e~gineering? MR. DONOGHUE: J::ven the engi nee ring.

• They have no 16 confidence in communic~tion~ enginsering, and we are 17 responsible for assuring the communications linkup.

Bart lb Kerr was responsible for putting together the engineering )Y package and dealing with AT&T on it. I don~t think either 2G l&E or certainly NRR has no interest in that aspect 21 They set the requirements for us., but they would expect us 22 to assure that these are available. 23 In ADP, we've asked for an increase of two. The 24 growth of ADP activities in -che Agency, which is evidenced 25 by the high dollar increases, the number of applications

r . 25501 079 kap 54 that are now being utilized requiring us to really assure 2 that there's much more centralized direction. An inspector 3 and aucitor in the draft report that the Commission has not 4 5 6 seen yet 9 but it's critical of the dispersion of ADP functions, a lack of overview on ADP procurements. They seem to think that these additional 7 positions, we can do more to assure that there's a coherent 8 ADP long-range plan which will be factored into this 9 information management technology plan, which will cover ADP lO communications and v0rd processing as a basic funciarnental l l whicn is the way ttie government is approaching the 12 interrelationships between these functions are becoming so lJ significant that they can't look at on stand alona systeQs 14 any longer. \\,. I :J CUJJHSSIOr~EF-1 GILHbr~Y: Do they then have c:;1 16 specific assignment?' 17 ld lY MR. DONOGHUE: In ADP? ccnw;rssroNER GILINSKY: These two? MR. DO:r.JOGHUE: They will be in there to provide additional capability to reivs~ procurerne~ts to devalop the 21 planning necessary for the Agency, yes. They wouid have 22 specific assignments. 23 CO:,W.ISSIONER GILINSKY: Does that mean all 24 procurements go through this office? 25 MR. DONOGHUE: That's one of the problems. All

. 25501 081 0 kap 2 3 5 55 procurements have not gone through that office, but all procurements should go through that office to assure compatibility with the agency plan, with the other agency. Is that our policy now? ItJs been our policy, but itJs been ~ observed~ I would say, in many cases 9 more in the failure to 7 do that. I've instructed the Division of Contracts and the o Division of Personnel that there is to be no ADP St procurer:*:ents v:ithout the concurrence of the Office of.ADP I! the concurrence to minimize and take away this proliferation 12 at A0P activities that are springing up all over the place. 13 C,)iL,iISSICJ;,i;:ii GILil{SiCr: 1\\/hat does ADP procurer.1ent 14 mean? uoes that mean hardware or does it go beyond that? i5 iiiR. DC)J\\!OGriuc: Ana s-oftware, and the.AJJP system. 10 NOW, I think management 17 res~onsible for the management information systems, but in 16 the development of the systems, but the software procurement 19 would be with the concurrence of Charlie Travers. 20 COj,\\11iI SS IOi-E:R GI Lii Si\\Y ~ Is there some piece of 21 paper that lays this out? 22 MR. DONOGHUE: As the result of a task force that 23 looked at ADP several years ago, there was a division of 24 responsibility that Lee made betv:een ADP -- 25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Whatever our current

2550109.J 1 kap 56 policy is, do you lay it out somewhere? 2 MR. DONOGHUE: .It -should be laid out more 3 specifically in the manual chapter on the division of ADP, 4 which has not vst been 5 COM;AISSIONER GILINSKY: Could you send me a copy 6 of that? 7 MR. DONOGHUE: Sure. Contracts, we;re asking for 8 12 more people, which reflects the growth in the contracting 9 area, the increasing competitive procurements which are 10 going from roughly 100 now, we anticipated there/11 be 200 ll by FY '81. This is partly beceuse a number of the oifices, 12 particularly NMSS and Research now is moving in that I 3 di rec ti on, a1*rny t rom p:::yi ng a great number of their program 14 support through the laboratories. 15 We're also going tb start tteating as a.result.of 16 criti'cisrn from GAO, universir.y procurements, \\vhich have been 17 handled in the past on a sole source selection basis, based 18 on unsolicited proposals. Re're going t.o lnok a lot more 19 closely at those, and probably require in many cases that 20 they be compet.eci tor before -che universities are awarcied. 21 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Could I just take you back 22 to the at.her item? You say we basically are continuing t.he 23 policy we had before, but it was observed more in the breach 24 than otherwise. 25 MR. DONOGHUE: Right.

25501 i 012 kap 57 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: What are we putting in 2 place to make sure that in fact it will be observed now? 3 MR. DONOGHUE: vfo,,re going to have to insist that 4 ell ~hese things come through that division, and I must say, 5 it's not entirely because of the o+/-fices. o In some cases probably they have felt they're not 7 yet receptive reactions, so they start end running it, in 8 many cases. Also, we have not aggressively tried to force 9 the issue. 10 11 12 13 COiviMISSIO;~i:R GILINSi<Y: Are you cioing that now? !,\\;:;*. DONOGHUE: Yes. CCJ;.ti,HSSIONEP. GILINSKY: Is there a memorandum out? MrL DDJ10GHL;E: DIA, the re;Jort v1ould indicate thct 14 we haven't done as good as we should be doing, that's the problem. COl,1MI SSIONER GILINSi(Y: Are you "hen going to sencJ 17 out instructions? 18 19 2C 21 obviously out ubout MR. DONOGHUE: Yes. We sent the111 one<=.:. They're no -c being followed, and many times \\\\'8 don't find the situation until it's already a fait a ccorr1pl i. For one thing, I've done those, I tried to cut it 22 off at the two places where they can likely get away with 23 something, which is in the division of Contracts for outside 24 procurements and also the division of Personnel for the 25 hiring of programmers. But, we haven't done it, I must say

2:i:i()j i l i 3 kap 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 y 10 l I 12 13 14 i5 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 58 in all fairness, we haven.,t done a very good job ourselves in defining a plan that clealy lays out what the roles and responsibilities have bee~. And we have not done enough in insisting in those cases wnere they have failed LO go through us, that we take some kind of action. COJ,\\/,ISSIONER GILINSKY: Are we going to develop a plan nc\\'t? MR. DUNOGHLJE: V*:e"ve been trying to develop an ADP plan for the lasL two years. \\ie haven"t got.:en one, it's being folded in now inLo this overall plan, this information management technology plan. CC)!:;J.'.ISSIOi*JER GILINS<Y: I guess I-'m still not clear whether specific insLructions have gone out to everyone to follow what I understand is our policy on AJP. Is it being monitored in some way? /,rn. GOSSICK: I.,ve just recently become aware of some people that have ignored it and we.,re going back along with the other findings in the OIA report, and addressing a lot of things that have to be more rigidly reinforced an~ bucked up in the general performance of the ADP shop as well as compliance by the other parts of the organization. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Well, if you send out general instructions, could I see a copy? MR. DONOGHUEi All right.

59 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Could I ask just a quick 2 question on this competitive procurement from the 3 universities? Could you explain more about why we~re going 4 competitive? 5 /,1R. :JOl~OGHUE: Maybe u*o like to have Ed Holman, 6 if you wouldn't mind, explain that. 7 COMMISSIONER AHEAFfrJE~ Ed, the question is the 0 concep1:. of competitive procurement from the universities. 9 10 i:!R. HOLJ,1AN: Yes, sir. CO!iild SS I ONER AHEAR!'ff: At l eas-c "Co me, ini ti a 11 y 11 that sounds like not the kind of thing I would ordinarily 12 think of going out for a competitive contract. I'd like to 13 know why this is the wrong picture. 14 15 Ordinarily l"d think. you'd go to universities because 1:.hey Kave so~e talents that you're really going 16 for. 0nique talents of individuals, or ideas, and it 17 doesn't initially at least seem to be the kind of thing that 18 you're competing, or should. lY MR. HOLMAN: V{e irn::end to continue contracting 2C with universities when they subr:iit specific ideas to l.iS for 21 research or otherwise by way of our unsolicited proposal 22 mechanism so that our in~rease in competitive -- doesn't 23 preclude our continuing association with the uAiversities. 24 What we've been criticized by the GAO for is using 25 this concept for universities as a good place to get ideas,

255011315 kap 2 3 60 to actually subvert the competitive procurement process. W h at we ' v e b e en do in g i s go in g to t he uni v er s i ti e s as a group and saying, We want you to do this kind of work, or we make our projects known to universities through all sorts of 5 mechanisms and we get all sorts of unsolicited proposals. 6 GAO is saying th2t in most of those cases where I looked at 7 our unsolicited proposals, they didn~t stand the tests set 6 out in the federal* procurement regulations for a£ceptance on 9 a non-competitive basis. lO So ~hat's what we*'re going to be scrutinizing. 11 12 COMMISSIOHER.A.HEARUE~ Did we agree with that? MR. HOLMAN: We didn't take exception to that 13 conclusion froiii the GAO report. The other thing that v.ias 14

• pointea out by Senator Hart's committee when they came in i5 and looKed at our whole posture insofar as compe~i~ion, was l 6 that our basic competi ti v.e posture was 65 percent sole 17 source procurements, 35 percent competitive ones.

18 That's also been criticized by the GAO as they 19 looked at a number of other federal agencies and in some 20 offices in this agency we have about a 95 percent sole 21 source procurement ratio. That was based largely on the 22 fac~ that we did a lot of contracting with universi~ies. So 23 we're looking a~ the total picture. 24 One area where it's extremely heavy is with the 25 universities and that's where we are looking at it. There

255011416 kap 2 3 4 5 61 is no real statutory or _regulatory basis for us to just except universities from the normal competitive requirements, even though we think they~re a source of expertise. If we have projects that they want to bring to us, 6 they can bring it to us in the unsolicited proposal 7 mechanisms, or they can themselves compete, and they do 8 compete in a lot of other federal agencies and even in this 9 agency through some offices. So we have a lot of contracts 10 with the universities as the result of competition, too. 11 CO Mid SS IONE?. AHEARNE~ I 9 u e s s I w o u l d ho pe t ha t 12 we don't go too far in responding to the criticism of the 13 lack of competition with respect to university contracts, i4 15 16 particularly when at least. some of the GAO studies that I was.familiar wit.h in 'other agencies~ those criticisms \\\\'ere based-upon a la~k, really, of understanding of the kind of 17 thing that was being procured. 15 i..-iR. HOLMAi~= Well, of course you.,re right. V1e.,re 19 going to look at these things on a case-by-case basis in the 20 report but,.,:hat Vie.,ve cio;-ic: is, is v.re'"ve gone way over this 21 way and what we're trying to do is get a little more balance 22 into the picture and that's what those numbers reflect. 23 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Also, I must say I'm not very 24 upset by percentage numbers, sole source versus competition, 25 because based on the overall agencies' noL tracking in other

p2550l 1517 kap C.*/ 62 methods of getting people to work for us, we started out 2 with enormous bias. Suppose you decide to do the "81 LOFT 3 programs, and decide to bid competitively to cover that $48 4 million -- sorry, there's $43 ~illion in sole source, no 5 question of that. 6 I dere say, let's see, what did we put out in the 7 course of a year? Probably something in fiscal "80 of the 8 order of 200 and what -- $20 or $50 million goes o~t of the 9 agency? iO i.H-L UOiWGriUt:: Incluaing the 1 ~aoorator1es, yes. 1 i CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Including the laboratories, you 12 just know that a large fraction.of that is to special places 13 in facilities and so on. So you just know that it's going 14 '] 5 to be soJ.e source. Now, I think the one place that the GAO had a legitimate grab at us was in, I gue.ss, nu;-nber of tho*se 16 circurastances we haven't been as careful as 'we should be, to 17 have the papers of the action reflect that the special 18 circumstances, you know, sort of make the case in the l~ record that the sole source was appropriate in. the 20 circuwst&nce. 21 22 23 24 Clearly, we're going to have to do better on that. 25

I \\ I I MR. HOLMAN: 63 I might just add to your point, though, 2 \\!that those statistics that I just related did not include the 1\\ 2 I: work that we perform in the national labs. So, if you include 1! !; i! 4 ii those, then, of course, the numbers would be a lot different. ll 5 i,So that our emphasis here in our '81 budget will not at all ii 6\\lreflect on that relationship. I! 7 jj CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Other cormnent? p B Ii Yes, go ahead, Peter. C01:1MISSIONER BRADFORD: On the first couple of items 10 ; there, to what extent are improvements in the response center capability reflected? MR. DONOGHUE: Well, the corrmmnications coordinator 13 i:that will free up more time from just about one communications 14 ;;e~gineer now to work on. This will tie into the response center ii 15 iibecause that's where these regional and reactor lines will termi-li Ii 16 [lnate. Both voice and FAX and teletype. But it's not designed 1: 1-7 ;solely for that purpose, although that is where we improve our

i 18 i1overall communications.

MR. GOSSICK: This is not for staffing the cenber at 20,all. That's purely I &E. COMMISSIONER BRADFORD: And does this get you where want to be in terms of response center capabilities? 23 l I, MR. GOSSICK: Not necessarily. We're studying other 24 i;things like, you know, tying into their event computer or what-Ace-Federa1 Reporters, Inc. ii 25 !ever else, in the way of readout. Part of the engineering for, I i II ii II

pv2 64 1 you know, those kinds of things -- I I 2 I I I MR. DONOGHUE: This would give *us the capability to ~ \\ assist them in the engineering and in the procurement of the I 4 :!engineering services necessary to do that. Ii CO~-~ISSIONER BRADFORD: I see. But this is basically !\\ 6 ::backup to that effort, and not the effort itself. !I MR. DONOGHUE : Right. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: It's also engineering. MR. GOSSICK: It's the engineering. They would be tl' 'involved in the study of alternatives. I &E will probably come -in with NRR, together with a series of alternatives, each of

• .::. which will have to be looked at by Dan I s people from the stan.d-1~ 0point of what would it cost~~tid so forth._

15 ii right? !i 16 Ii 18 that were CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The contracts delta is really r4; MR. DONOGHUE: Yes, sir. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: It's the i2 listed here, plus two MR. DONOGHUE: As you recall, also, in the FY 1 80 authorization, Senate authorization bill, there is a provision I! 21 ::for eight for contracts, too. In personnel, we're asking for 22 ;:two more. One is for a personnel management specialist who 23 ;1handles the personnel relationships with the off ices, based on 24 :increased workload, and we've been short-staffed in that area Ace-Federal Reocrters. Inc. I I 25 i and have been for the last, I would say, almost two years. And

pv \\\\ 65 ll Ii ,; another ii person to work on the Civil Service Reform Act. It's in

1.

'.2 I! its i1 ii embryonic stages, particularly if you get below the SES ii ~ ::where they have concentrated most of their attention because it !] 4 i!came into effect more immediately. Ii .11 ii 5 i* I[ !i But there are a number of revisions, some of which we 5*;may or may not be bound by. We need to take a look on that as JI I\\

!!to what extent our own personnel system should be consistent II ii

,:; \\1 with the sys tern under OPM. ii G 11 The SES itself is putting a tremendous workload on the 10 :: agencies and will continue to do so over the**.next several years until it shakes down. And it's a very confusing area. The !2.instructions, to put it mildly, are fluid, 'that come out of OP,M. -13 1 But the obligations, many of which are mandated 'by statute, are

• 14,: still on us to have in place certain things such as performance 11 15 jjappraisals, systems for bonuses, and executive resources boards ii 16 iland all the rest.

There will be no letup for several years. In Rules and Records, we've asked for an increase of 18 :*three for tne increased workload associated with the local public

~ document rooms and growing number of documents.

As you know, ~r there are about 154 reactor document rooms and about 12 fuel 2 i /[cycle facility document rooms. This is an outgrowth of the !I 22 '.:report that we made to the Commission on the position that we 2::; :ought to take with respect to LPDRs, and if want to make them 24 really meaningful resources to the public on a local basis, we've Ace-Federal Reoorters, Inc, 25 got to do a lot more. We're addressing some of the questions

pv4 66 that were recently r,aised, but it does increase the workload. 2 It I s going to require more trips to the local PDRs. It I s going ~ to be a much more interactive interface than we've had in the Ii"'

past,

.., it

1 which has been in many cases, although it's improved sig-ii 5,, nificantly over the past two years.

II I just received a letter \\i 11 6 \\i the other day from the mayor of I think.it was Austin, Texas, ii 7 i! which was highly complimentary of Joan Satter, who handles the II i! S iiPDRs, for her courteous handling of their city's request to make s* available arrangement of space and working with the library in

i W :1A t'

ii us in. !\\

• I So, in many respects, I think it's certainly doing a

~2 . significant job for the Commission in improving our public pos-iJ tur~ in the areas in which our 1icensed facilities are located. , ' '"

• I think it's certainly worth the effort to enhance that.

But ii l5 1i like ii everything else, it costs people. ii 16 !! ll I! There is also a set-aside in Rules and Records of three people. This is to establish a centralized writing-editing 1c *group to rewrite and write our regulations 'in plain English. We reported there was a task force that Mr. Gossick 20.convened several months ago which looked at the situation and ji 2' :drafted the FOIA regulation in plain English, which was issued II 22 ;: for comment in advance of publication, an advance notice type. 23 l!We' re in the process of assimilating the comments now coming back 24 to the Commission with specific recommendations. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 But r*might say the comments are entirely favorable.

pv5 67 We've had 30 cornmenters who responded. Some replied this is the 2 first time they ever had a regulation emanating from the Com-2 mission that they could read without the assistance of a Phila-I 4 1 delphia lawyer, or that it was the first time they could under-S stand from just reading it once. II I ii There were a number of suggestions on where other 7\\! changes ought to be made in terms of rewriting the regulations. Ii ,I 8,; We probably wouldn't propose that everything be rewritten. I' I (I COMM:ISSIONER AHEARNE: In plain English. MR. DONOGHUE: In plain English. (Laughter.) MR. DONOGHUE: But we felt if we're going to actually ,3,, initiate this effo:i:-t we ought to get people in ~he bu..C?,get:. The

• 1,.,,, number of people are consistent with the evaluation that the i 5 ii task force inc 1 uded, which was three.

!I i i\\ 16 !i !' 1: COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Now, what are they going to 17 address? Are they going to redo the CFRs? MR. DONOGHUE: What they will do is they are involved in the formulation and the writing of regulations from its '.2 C inception. !I 21 !\\ ii !i,. COMM:ISSIONER GILINSKY: You're talking about future 22 :,regulations. 2'.: ' MR. DONOGHUE: Well, future. But we're looking selec-24 ;;tively at what regulations ought to be dealt with right now. Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.;! 25 ilThere is a great deal of concern I, I think Tom and the lawyers

l_ pv6 IJ I 68 1., and others have -- that some of these regulations which may be I! ~ 1i i 1,wri~~en in fairly arcane language have nevertheless -- the words' [1 !i ,, 1! have reached sort of a state of art, they have an art form in i1 ~ ;!themselves and that to tamper with the words could create prob-lems. Ii COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I was wondering whether Torn in !i ?!Ibis role with the BRG in this and the set-asides, whether he was i1 1: t :;acting on behalf of the BRG or EOD. MR. ENGLEHARDT: I was going to respond to supplement

• 1c1 :, what Dan had to say about that aspect of it. Some of those regu-lations are designed for the licensees primarily.

It gives them

• ~ *guidance.

And to put them into a different format could create

• ~, more problems, at least *as we see it now, than might be worth it

,4 at first blush. So that the concentration on effort in this 15 i! exercise would be on those reg_ulations that have more applica-

i,,

16 !lbility to the general public and what the general public would be more likely to be affected or read,than some of the others. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I was really very sorry if I finally understood what you're asking. I had thought that it ~r was going to be from now on all of the papers were going to be 21 iin plain English. Because we have some very highly paid editorial 22 writers up here who work on the papers when they're sent up, and

• , *:, I thought maybe MR. DONOGHUE:

The last position is for the Division Ace-Federal Reoorters, Inc, 25 of Security, which is primarily to handle the growing number --

pv, 69 ' I i l I it says "internal security." We're really talking about. 11' I inte l'""' 2 gence community documents, and this is primarily for the Com-3 missioners' benefit. To some extent, OIA, but the numbers have i! 4 grown on us. i1 Compartmented information. We've got over about 5 :i 400 more documents in '79 than we had in '78. They're continu-i! 11 6li ing to grow, and because of the security requirements imposed ii , ii by the community, it I s a man-eater. And at sacrifice to other Ii ii s :: things in the Division of Security, in order to keep the Com-11 ~ ::missioners' needs and desires in this area fulfilled, it's con-10 :; tinuing to hurt us and ~ill continue. If we're going to be involved to this extent, we ought to recognize it by providing resources in the future. the principal set-aside involving people, of course,

• i4 :; is the conversion to temp-orary personnel --

l! i 5 ii ( S 1 i de. ) II i! 16 Ii -- In which we show i56 people that fall into the 17 category or position. I will illustrate a little further where 1& *. some of those positions are and what kind of people there are. I do want to make a correction based on a discussion 7.C I had with R~y Fraley. We show 10 of these temporaries as being 21 i!the ACRS fellows who are on temporary appointment. ACRS does ,j '1 22 !:not want to convert them to permanent position. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: So you're going to drop them? 24 MR. DONOGHUE: This drops to 146. I don' t think. any i Ace-FeCP.ral Reporters, Inc. 25 of the Commissioners certainly are well aware of this problem,

pv8 70 which was a result of the way the pot was divvied up at the time 2 the AEC went out of business and NRC and ERDA were created. The 2 NRC, the positions on the licensing or regulatory side were ii 4 Ir primarily professional or technical positions, and there were a II ij 5 :,verv limited number of support positions at that time. But Ii i: , i I c,:they were provided through the Germantown general manager's side. 7 !! In the supplemental bill that went in that year, which ii tr 8 :; was designed to make us. hold for the lack of resources that c :were provided to us, we got something like 50 fewer than we W ::requested, and we have never recovered from that. The Commission has over several years made note of this 12 *fact in the letter to the 0MB, and one year even suggested some

• 13. kind of an incremental conversion process.

Every year in the 14 *ihearings before 0MB I have raised the questions again and again, j, 15 iiand it's greeted sympathetically, but it's not greeted with any l6 !1obvious inclination to do a hell of a lot about it. I think there is a number of things. It's interesting jl i8. to note that there are still 11 people who were temporaries at the time we came into being that are still tempo~aries, and of

c _these temporaries that we have, over a hundred have been with us II 21 11 over a year.

ii So, from a management standpoint, it's a difficult 1: 22 ;:problem. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Why don't you just mention, Dan, ~, ~~ what it is, if they are temporary, they don't have? Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 MR. DONOGHUE: I was going to mention that, was the

.I:-' V:;, 71 inequity of the thing. They do not have health benefits, they 2 :do not have retirement benefits,,they do not have life insurance I 3 I

benefits.

The only thing they have is social security. So, they !i L ::are denied all of the benefits that inure to a permanent employee,

, i al though they are in a permenen t position, and r for all practical

,I ~ ! : ~,;purposes, we could not function without them. l! MR. GOSSICK: Dan, let me just mention one other fact If you figure these people into our grade average, our grade average becomes very respectable along with other agencies'. MR. DONOGHUE: It drops us.35,at least. CO:MMISSIONER AHEARNE: And we are, as far as the per-centage of these go, we are very high, as far as agencies go. MR. DONOGHUE: I was _going to mention we've done a survey of five agencies that are either regulatory or scientific 15 i and technical. We are, by far, the greatest user of temporary 16 : 'people and part-time jobs. ..,c 2 i COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Full-time jobs. MR. DONOGHUE: Full-time jobs. I am sorry. Right. We have the highest ratio when they review our clerical to profes-sional in the permanent slot, because all of our clerical and

support activities are taken up through temporaries.

Well, from

1

"'),.., ~,L. ;;a budget standpoint, the effect is not significant immediately. ,-.,.~, .,,:, ::Now, from a government standpoint, there is a long-term obligation 24 Ace-Feoerai Repcrters, Inc. in terms of retirement and other things. But these are things 25 these people have earned, and they've been productive employees

pvl0 II 72 in many cases. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: It's a question of fundamental equity. ii MR. DONOGHUE: That Is right. (Slide.) 6 1;

i This chart here shows the kind of jobs that these peb-I, 7 11 ple are in at the agency and where* they' re spread within the ii 8 i! office of administration.

I have by far the largest number -- almost three-quarters of them are in administration. They are 10:1 the kind of jobs that if you don't have them, you don't get them done; I mean, like drivers and mail delivery. Many of them are 'I. ih those wage board-type jobs where they're not co?vertible. In "i3 the secretarial area, many of thos'e women are eventually able to 14 be converted to a permanent position. They have mobility. But i5 :; a warehouseman has very little mobility. Next* sli~e, please. (Slide.) lb 1 This also shows where they're utilized in other offices. Here again you can see predominantly in things such as

c, Len Barry's area and Documents, that just get a little assistance.

ii 21 S !! 0, it's a significant problem. Every year has always been the 22 :: 11wrong budget year 11 in which to do anything about it. But I 22 'think that Mr. Ahearne has pointed out to me at one point if we

-~ 1don' t do something soon there is nobody going to be left over Ace-Federal Reoorters, Inc. !

I 25 ithere that's going to remember what happened.

pv 73 COMMISSIONER A.HEARNE: Yes. MR. DONOGHUE: So, I would strongly urge that the Commission would include this. I realize what this is going to Ii 4 i\\ do in terms of a big bulge in the budget, but I think the com-S :: mitment has to be there, though, that if the 156 -- this wouldn't ii II 6 ii even take ii 7 !i ll ii :\\ 8 1 1 ii COMM:ISSIONER A.HEARNE: 146. MR. DONOGHUE: 146. This would not take congressional, 9 " action; this is something that 0MB could do. l Cl So, this is not a congressional requirement. 0MB can '.'

• set the ceiling.

iL MR. BARRY: But Congress put limits to it,so they

• ,3,:would have to lift that limit.

14 !: COMMISSIONER A.HEARNE: At least_,speaking for myself, I !I 15 'was astonished when I came in and I found this situation. It's 16 1just gross inequity, and I would like, when you go over to 0MB,

1 I would like to go with you.

II MR. DONOGHUE: I think it also needs to be argued -- COMMISSIONER A.HEARNE: And if the Commission doesn't

c, support it, I will go myself, because having spent several years 21 I!

trying 1! II to run the manpower side of the fence, I am just aston-I' 22 l:ished.

MR. DONOGHUE:

Okay, next slide, please.

L4 (Slide.) Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 25 This is our administrative support budget. In a number

74 of areas, the ~ncreases are primarily due to inflation. As the 2 comptroller of the BRG notes in one of their submissions to you, ' it's ironic that the rate dif inflation in other government

agencies is higher than the rate of inflation in the private

.. :* sector. GSA is charging us 20 percent more for rent than they Ii I' 7 I! did a year ago, for the *same number of space.. Card service has Ii 1,

1,,

F gone up. So, it all depends on whose ox is being gored, I guess. CO!v'iMISSIONER AHEARNE: You list under "transportation the movement of household goods from resident 'i c of things" 1.:,,' iS :1

1,,

16 ii 1, inspectors as well as headquarters offices much that is for the reside_nt inspectors? do you know how MR. DONOGHUE: Larry, do you kn-ow how much of that group of household goods i.s resident inspectors? MR. COOPER: About a third of it. MR. DONOGHUE: In-the ADP services area, where we show an increase~ for FY '* 81, NRR has asked me to inform the Commission ,c 1,that they would feel that they would be significantly impacted by the reduction made by the BRG in terms of meeting their ~C programmatic requirements in FY '81 and beyond. Their concern 21 ::is that there are a number of codes that are coming into being if 22 1 as the result of some research activities. The application of 27.these codes would be severely hampered. Part of the problem, 2,( :!while that's very true, it's also that the cost of ADP services Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc., the labs and other places is going up. ____ __J

1:-' V.L.J i\\ I I i I 75 Also, there has been an inclination to run a lot of 2 our codes on prime* time,or a certain amount of the work,which ~. increases the cost by about three times. 5

• daytime?

i! II 6 ii ii,, COM.MISSIONER AHEARNE: By "prime time, 11 do you mean MR. TIDUI'MAN: I think priority seoJTIS to be t.1-ie problem, just 7:!to get 24-hour turnaround so you don't forget what you're trying 8::to do. i: They've had to apply priority. Put it another way: If S* : there rs no computer time available at the place, the users are

1

• 10 all bidding against each other to buy up that spare time.

Sparse resource. I don't think it's that they're trying to run very long jobs during prime time.. Some of the short jobs in prime

• -*:time, of course, they have to.

end#2 14

i 15

1

!\\ !i 16 li ii i, £.*-- Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc.

• 25 !

r 255.03.1 gsh 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 J l 1 2 13 14 15 16 17 l 8 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 76 MR. DONOGHUE: It-'s the initiator that they,,r.e using. COMMISSI.ONER GILINSKY.: Is it b.ecause they can,,t get good service otherwise? MR. DONOGHUE.: That.,,s their complaint, yeah. Charlie, what.,,s the difference normally between pr irne t irne and, say, a norm.al turn-around in terms of a day or an hour or six houis? ----**-*- - --- MR. TROUTMAN: Prime time usually means during working hours, 8.:00 to 5:00. And all places have ways to limit utilization of big jobs, then. But ordinarily, you expec~ your Job turned around in 24 hours, and if it doesn-'t come back, you start ge~ting frantic because you know now that you.,,r.e running in a place that can-'t c.lean up their workload, and ten.ding to a Q that Will go to infinity. So the usefs end up competing against each other by bidding as a priority~ and.they..,11 pay $2Q00 or $40D0 an hour. COMNiISSIONER GILINSKY: To get 24-hour s.ervice? MR. TROUTMAN: Yes. MR. BARRY: And that..,s what we were doing. MR. TROUTMAN: When we dialed up collect to Idaho National Engineering Laboratory a couple of times this year to get out last night-'s print-outs, they came on with a little rne~sage. P-1 and P-2 jobs will not tu~n around in

S255. 03. 2 gsh 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 JO J 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 ]9 20 21 22 23 24 25 77 24 hours. Youve got to use P-3. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: If it doesnt turn around in 24, does that mean it slips to 36? MR. TROUTr./[AN: It could slip indefinitely. 'Ihat' s the point. CD.MMISSlONER AHEARNE: I bet it_ could~ MR, TIDUTMA..'t\\J: They said two weeks for some. Basically, J m trying to get ten pounds out of a nine-pound sack. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Once that stuff begins to slide, then unless you hike the priority on it, you may find yourself slipping downstream until the inevitable fluctuation over.a several week period in the workload, create a va.lley which allows your stuff to come out. You might say, look, we could stand 36 hours turn around instead of 2~ or even 48. What we canJt stand is a turn around which is, well, it may be a couple of days and it may be three weeks. WB can 1 t tell you. You can1 t run on that basis here for the most part. So that1 s a problem. MR. 'IROUTMAt'J: The gross arrount that they're paying at $40D0 an hour is sttll less than they would have to pay for c o mm e r c i a l t i me

• I cannot buy the equivalent of an hour of 7600 times $40D0, even the most delayed priority commercially.

So that you may want to consider giving them this.extra money

52 55. 03. 3 gsh because we may be fo.rce.d to go corrmercia1 because of the shortagB of computer time at our regular places. 78 2 3 4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: What~s the increment? JtJs listed here as 80-P services, 81 v 8 million. 5 the increm"'nt is a~o:Jt S2-1/2 6 million. 7 COMMLSSIONER AHEARNE: What would it be? 8 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: If you chucked in the extra dough 9 to cover these. 10 MR. DONOGHUE.: Vihat would they need to make themselves Jl whole? 12 MR. TIDUTI1A.."f\\J: They said that if this 8 million only includes 13 1.2 million for them, only inc.ludes J.2 million. They asked 14 15 for 3700 hours in JBJ. 3700 hours at $1000 an hour, thatJs ]. 7. There is a page which wi 11 show a supplementary reques*t 16 for TMI of 2.8. 11 So if youJre considering that 2.3, that would add 18 up to 3.6 million, which almost covers them, if we could 19 find $1000 an hciur time. If we canJt get $1000 an hour time, 20 we have to go to $4000 to $5000 an hour time. ThBn it would 2i be like 15 million. 22 MR. DONOGHUE1 The 2.3, I think, is for I.SI.Sf isnJt 23 , it, Charley? 24 MR. TIDUTMAN: No, that' s settlem2nt for 'IMI. It I s a 25 TMI add-on. They 1 ooked at that 2.3 add-on for TMI and the

1255.03.4 gsh 79 J.2 here, and.they said that-'.s not the 5.2 we.,..re looking for. 2 3 4 MR. DONOGHUE.: It-'.s big dollars. CHAIRMEN HENDRJEz Is the NRR chart a particularly critical one here? Don t we have some research in the same 5 kettle of fish? 6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE! Doesn,..t research pay for 7 theirs itself? 8 VOICE: Independently, via a contract. 9 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE-: They have 16,000 hours. 10 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: But this is everything but JI research now? 12 MR. DONOGHUE: NMSS has a fair chunk of the 13 requirement in the -'81/.,..82 time-frame. They expect some 14 15 codes to be de_veloped fC?r thern by that time, t.oo. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: They.,..11 have to work pretty hard 16 to get up into the level of complexity and the start of 17 run times that the reactor safety codes get to, and shorter 18 jobs. 19 MR. BARRY: One of the problems that we ran into, 20 Mr. Chairman, is who is calling the shots? In other words 9 21 you give a guy another million bu£ks for computers, unless 22 you have a rather high level of control, it isn_,,t used there. 23 We found that at least we got the branch chief level saying, 24 I don-'t need a.11 of_ this money at the time and the assumption 25 +/-or the increase of $7 million to $8 million was on the fact

6255. 03 *.5 gsh 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 J l 1 2 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that 25 percent of their requirement wil-1 be on prime time. The other 75 percent will.be normal. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE.: ?Jhat is the amount in.,,.80? Charley, what.,,.s the amount in.,80? MR. TROUTMAN: $1. 1. 'Ihen there I s a 'IMI supplemental for that also for$!.!, plus $2.8 supplemental, adds up to 80 $3e9.. And the NRR people f:.eel that they n_eeded $4.8 million. They.,re only running 25 percent priority. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: How about all of 80-P in

• '80?

MR. TROUTMAN: $7 million. 'Ihat I s what r.1k. Barry was referring, from $7 million to $8 million from J80 to -'31. MR. DONOGHUE: A number of items on here are really fixed expenses and there isn't much give one way or the other. The document control system, we 1 re asking for an increase.of approximately $2 million, which is consistent with the planning that has been done for that system right along. There is a set-aside in document control which 1 -11 discuss a little later. Next slide, please. ( S 1 i de.) . This slide covers the traveling decision units and itJs broken into two parts*- travel for the o+/-fice of administration, which covers such things as*-

255. 03.6 gsh 81 2 3 4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: My sheet says the EDD recommendation for administrative support is $40 mi.llion and change. How did it get down to $36, 158? MR. DONOGHUE-: The J:DOs includes.the supple'Tlent, 5 which ~s carried over from so. Turn on Slide 3, please. 6 7 8 9 10 (Slide.) CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: When things for the commission er s, you which is instead of having little probably disappear under the clip you make up copies of ought to do what Sol delicate numbers that and, are good for the JI compilers of the package, you could put a nice big fat these

did, 12 number down on the lower right-hand corner 9 and it makes it 13 easier for us with simpler minds.

14 MR. DONOGHU&: There.;s where -- now. where am I at? 15 YouJre on administrative support. You 16 wanted to know how to get to the EDO mark of 40 to the 17 36 that this previous table shows. The-difference is a 18 supplement of 415K that_IJll be discussing later 9 an JSO 19 supplement that was carried ov.er. 20 MR. BARRY: That., s $4, 15 7, ODO. 21 MR. DONOGHUE.: I-'m sorry. 22 MR. BARRY: That consists of $l.5 million tor the 23 improvements and the tel.ephone s ystern in the incident center 24 and so on. And $2.3 million supplement for the 80-P that 25 Charley was talking about.

6255. 03. 7 gsh 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 J 1 12 13 14 15

• 1 6 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2-4 25 82 MR. DONOGHUE.: _It-'s TMl-related stuff.

MR. BARRY: And-then I&E and inspector-related-costs. That portion of support has to come out of Dan-'s adm inis tra ti ve support rather than their administrative support. You add that and you carry that. Youfve got the same bill wh.en you go into -'81. You add another $4-1 /2 mi.ll ion. And it is TMI-related. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE.: That-'s true about the agency. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The number, however, is $43,015,0D0 as a request. MR. DONOGHUE.: Yes, the total, right. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Okay. (Slide.) CHAI Ri~AN HENDRIE: Onward. MR. DONOGHUE: Okay. Was there any questions on the travel? It-'s fairly routine. It covers our own travel, which is staying relatively constant, and.the travel for interviewee and change of station travel, which can fluctuate depending on what the final number is that the commission decides on. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE.: I-'m surprissd that itfs as small as that.. (At 2.:35, Commissioner Gilinsky leaves the room.) MR. DONOGHUE: In FY., 80, we anticipate having 460

255.. 03.,8 gsh 83 2 3 interview trips. That might increase because the numbers are changing. A change in duty station costs, roughly. On the averag.e, the movement of household goods is about S2700. 4 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: JJm just surprised that the 5 basic agency - wait a minute. This isnJt ail the travel. 6 /JiR. DONOGHUE.: No, no, no. It_,,s my office, plus 7 the interviewees and household goods. 8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: We pay the household goods 9 for the residents~ right? 10 MR. DONOGHUE: Yes~ sir. Next slide, please. Jl (Slide.) 12 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Is 1 8! far enough away so if 13 there were any hope of improving the circumstances in that 14 15 16 program - should we be trying to make some allowance against it here in the JBJ *request? MR. DONOGHUE: You mean soma hardship a llowanc.e or 17 something? I tJ s going to tak.e a st.atutor.y approval. 18 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: To get there? I 9 MR. DONOGHUE.:. I th.ink so. I th ink youJd need 20 specific statutory authority to do some of the things that 21 IJve heard proposed. 22 COMMISSIONER AHERNE: When the budg.et goes in, let,,s 23 say. 24 25 MR. DONOGHUE: ThatJs right. I believe that the budget should re+/- le ct any budgetary.irnpl i cat ions, which it

6255.03.9 9sh 84 .obviously hass 2 Cl-{AIRMAN HENDRIE:We*'re not weJ.l situated to have, you 3 know, in hand, the paper that we would eventually like to get 4 which would* afford the basis for whatever recommendations 5 the commission wants to make to the Congress and would snable 6 that legislation. 7 But it would seem to me that if weJre ever going to 8 get going on the darn thing, why, we ought to be. looking to 9 try to shape that up this fall so that when we go to the 10 Buthorization committees the first of February next year, J l why, we-'re able to say, this is what we believe that the 12 Congress should do for us. 13 And I.. believe the phrase is a planning wed:;ie. 14 15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: That one we learned well. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: What we might do is pu*t an

• 16 asterisk on it. I don t know quite whether the place to put 17 it is in the travel catBgory or under administrative support 18 or what.

_JJ_ll put it in I&Es budget. 19 MR. GOSSICK: On this particular part of it, as 20 far as you know, it affects the resident inspectors. Len 21 and his-people have put together part of the package and 22 sent it to Stello 9 addr.es_sing what can be done under the 23 present circumstances. 2-4 25 It-' s not cl ear to.me that, you know, the re" s a basis +/-or us coming down with any sensible number at this point

255.. 03.10 gsh 85 until we really, you know, look at the whole program. We-'ve 2 got the money in here for the Yehicles, which will be a 3 4 big help as far as the resident inspector is concerned. I think that there is a lot more that we can do ~ under the current laws and regulations that make this 6 movement proper and a li~tle less hectic. 7 CO MMLSSIONER AHEARNE: Where does that money show 8 up, though? 9 For example, we have the provision under current 10 legislation to pay a certain amount of transition expenses. 1 l $50.00, which has to do with costs, making the visit$ 12 MR. GOSSICK: That-"s in here. 13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE.: Where does that d.o llar sh.ow up? 14 15 MR. DONOGHUE: That-'s in th~ interviewee charyge of station. FY -'81, it... s, $158,op.o. It will be in that category. 16 MR. GOSSICK: But there/s a set-aside that deals 17 with the unit inspectors. 18 MR. DONOGHUE: That, I.think, shows up in the 19 legislation, right, Len? 20 MR. BARRY: To answer your question, it-'s all over. 21 Some of it_, s in travel. 22 23 24 25 COMMI5SIONcR AHEARNE: In particular, 1 read your paper and I noticed a lot of state~ents there that we have the authority to do all these things. Now I then calculated how much does that turn out to

16255 *.03. 11 gsh 86 be +/-or aach move4 l figured that it could easily run $5000 2 for _each move on these.addit.ional benefits that we could 3 offer. 4 Then I look at this increased growth we are 5 ~Qrecasting in the various phasas of the re5ident inspector 6 pr_ogram. I would expect to see somewhere some $ L00,000 item 7 or something increasing to track that. 8 So what J m asking is, I know that we have the 9 authority, but do we have the dollars in there? 10 MR~ BARRY: Bruce, how much in anticipation of the Jl unit inspection program, resident inspection program, and so 12 on -- most of their money for the moves, including going out 13 and looking for a place to live, and so on. Is it - what? 14 1 5, In our tiavel b~dget and what else? MR. COOPERi Its a change.of station and travel. 16 MR. BARRY: We have projected whatever the number of 17 moves that are involved in 1 &E for -'81, which means you can 18 go out and come back and so on, have been cranked into our 1 9 budget. 20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Len, could you.in the next 21 couple of.days give a breakout of what is actually in 22 there? 23 MR. BARRY: Yes, we will, the number of moves 24 25 projected. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Because your paper had a lot

255.03. 12 gsh 87 of these things that w.e had_offered to do. I-'m.interested in 2 how much money we-'ve actually embedded in there. 3 4 5 MR. DONOGHUE.: It.,.s also in that million set-aside. MR. BA RP.Y: It is. MR. iJONDGi-IUE.: That.l's where it would be.. 6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: 1.,.d lik.e to see. 7 MR. BARRY: What the commissioner wants is an 8 articulation of what it is in terms of cost. 9 MR. DONOGHUE: Well, just as a quick example, for 10 J l 12 13 14 15 every position you hire 9 we pay about 5240 for interviewee travel, S345 for the visit to look for a house, about S27DO for a move, and about ~550 for storage of goods. So weJre getting pretty close to your number. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: But these other things were in addition. 16 MR. DONOGHUE.: Oh, yeah. 17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Some of the financial adversities, 18 if the change of station is from both coasts, if you've got 19 100 people going on station each year, a $5000 average bill 20 for that, yotrre going to have a million bucks, which we 21 ought to hava tucked into the budget some place, at least 22 at this stage. 23 (At 2:40, Commissioner Kennedy enters the room.) 24 25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: If we decide that we don't want to authorize it, we can always -

2 55. 03. 13 gsh 88 2 (At 2,:40 p.. m *., Commissioner Bradford leaves the r:oom) CHAIRMAN HENDRIE.: Do you and Peter have an 3 arr2ngement of the hours that you share? Would it be all 4 right if John and I were to leave? 5 (Laughter.> 6 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: As long as I can get my cut 7 _ o f t ha t, t.oo.. 8 MR. DONOGHUE; Next slide, please. 9 (Slide.) 10 MR. DONOGHUE: The next slide is the training JI dollars. I showed_ this columns in par_ens _in FY -"80 because 12 otherwise, it looks like thereJs a significant jump in J80 13 to J81 from 630 to 850. 14 Note that this 120K restoration, of course, was 15 an agreement that Lee made* at the.time that we sent* down tha.t 16 study on the agency training program to what was needed. 17 A number of things were pointed out in which he 18 agreed that depending upon the final outcome of the '80 19 budget,.he would do his best to make those funds available. 20 We donJt know yet, obviously, what that will mean. 21 But we think that this will provide us with a full range 22 of training. 23 The one thing that drops out if we do not get the 24 25 J80 is more of the group development courses and_they cover such.things as labor relations seminars, technical writing,

255. 03. 14 gsh 89 or in-house type ~curses. 2 So we feel that we have to continue supporting these 3 executive development institution.s. They..,re just e.ssential 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to the well be~ng of the agency.

CR 6255 HOFFJ\\1AN t-4 mte 1 e 2 Ii 3 I ii 4 t\\ I. Ii ~ 11

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'I I, II 6., Ii I 71 l 8j I ' '"' 1 'I i' 1l i 90 Are there any questions on this? (Slide.) The supplemental request. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I'm afraid I'm falling behind here. We're going to come back and talk about set-asides in travel and admin support at some point. MR. DONOGHUE: Yes, sir, that will be the last slide.: CHAIRl*1AN HENDRIE: All right, good. Onward. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: You realize on one slide, now lO ! two slides -- I was just looking back over the temporaries. I i 1 ! I 1 CHAifil".l.AN HENDRIE: It's 146, and on the previous 1" I .: \\ slide 13 !i COJ\\ll-iISSIONER KENNEDY: .I couildn I t figure out why i! ., I! 14 1! those fellows were. in fact temporary. Okay, so they I re not, 15 and that's the end of that. 16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: No, they are and they're going to stay that way. i8 19,i

I I, "O ii L

ii 11 "'1 ii L, !1 "2 I: L 11 1* 23 11 1: 11 24 :: COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: All right. Why are they? CHAIRMA..N HENDRIE: Because they have just come in for -- MR. DONOGHUE: Two years. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Two years is it? MR. DONOGHUE: As I recall, at the time we came in I Ace-Federal Reocrrers, Inc. ! and talked to 0MB about it, they would not allocate an increased ceiling, even though we talked about a rotating ceiling. 25

rote 2 6 7 15 16 91 COJvl'.. MISSIONER KENNEDY: How can they say that? That's a specific authorization of the Congress of the United States. Has 0MB taken over that? I don't think so. MR. BARRY: The Congress did not specify permanent people. COMM.ISSIONER KENNEDY: Congress specified a number of people as ACRS fellows. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I can remember a long hooraw over how we were going to get precisely MR. DONOGHUE: What we needed within our ceiling, Congress did not provide for increased ceilings to accommodate.* So they could be made permanent if we wanted to absorb them within the c_eiling. COlf~1ISSIONER KENNEDY: I thought that was sort of one of the things you were going to face up to, instead of dodging the issue. COMMISSIONER P..HEARNE: I think in this case I tho.ugh, ii 18 !i Dan has indicated the ACRS did not want them to be included in 11 !I 19 ii that. !i ii 20 ii ,1 i II "1 l,1 L 11 11 22 :1 Ji 23 1[ i! 24 :;,* .Acr--Feceral Reoorters, Inc. 'I

• I 25 !i li

!I 1, 1: ll COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That's the way to dodge the issue. MR. DONOGHUE: I really don't know the answer, I guess. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Let me just make a point, okay? If the Congress of the United States wants ten people

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• more on the rolls, the Congress of the United States ought to provide the funds associated for the associated spaces for them, unless it intends that we take them out of something else.

Now what we've done is managed to dodge the whole damn issue. And everybody's now got the best of all worlds and never came to grips with the issue of whether this program ought to stal'.'_ on the books or not. And you know,* that's the j way the Government manages to screw the taxpayer every time he turns around. Okay, I've made my speech. You know, I think we acted imprudently. We should have taken ten of our spaces, assigned them to this program, and gone back to the Congress and*said: Now, by God, w_e've had to cut' licensing by ten spaces to meet the program that you mandated. Instead of them, we give them a free ride. I'm sorry, it's just bad administration on the part of the Commissioners, not you. Okay. MR. DONOGHUE: Ckay. (Laughter.) CHATRJV'.!AN HENDRIE: Don't agree so easily. (Laughter.) COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: How can you not agree with 23 Ii that? 1, Ii 24 ii I' Ace-Federal Reoorters, Inc. : 25 i here. I I 11 I.

1 I'

1 Ii CHAIRMAN HENDRIE

All right, let's attack training I I I

mte 4 93 2 ii 4 ii Ii "II - i 6 Ii ii I 7i 8 I 0 ii / I I 10 1\\ II 11 !i '. I 13 MR. DONOGHUE: We passed that. CHAIRMAN,:HENDRIE: Oh, good, now we 're into the supplementals and I can find out what's going on. (Slide.) .MR. DONOGHUE: These are, to use the magic phrase, TMI-related sorts of things. The first, 1.4 million, which continues in the out years, is associated with the maintenance and continuing costs associated with that reactor communica-tions system that was recently intalled, as well as putting them -- COMI-1ISSIONER KENNEDY: The cost of that is $1. 5 million?. MR. DONOGHUE: About one million of that is in* i 14 re rurring costs on that system, and the other is for additional: 15 16 1711 i8 19 20 .~.ce-Feceral Reoorters, Inc. : improvements to health physics data systems that would feed into the headquarters of the region, as well as FAX transmis-sion capability to the regions and headquarters from the licensees. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: We are getting FAX? MR. DONOGHUE: I don't think FAX is in there. MR. TroUT.Mt':N: A broadcast.FAX capability will be part of the health physics network. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I was down there a while ago. A Congressman wanted to know why we didn't have teletype machines 25 i 1 helping everything out. !1 ii I!

rote 5 II 94 2 v li 4 Ji,, I. !I r; ii ,_J ;I I I 6 Ii COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Teletype? CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: This guy was hung up on teletype machines. I kept trying to convince him that it was easier to speak into a telephone than tapping away at a keyboard on a teletype machine. He wouldn't have anything to do with it. Okay. Let's see. It just rises gently as one goes 7 jl on. -~ I s Ii 1i !i Q !! , li lj 10 1! Ii i: 11 !! ii /1 l 2 Ii " !l nli ~ 11 .I ii 1.1 15 16 17 I I 1 c, i ,t). I I 19 l l I' 20 ii

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~" 11 L..5,I 11,I ?, :: _,.,1. r; /i,ce-Federal Reoorters, Inc. 25 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: At the rate of 10 percent per year. I think on my compound interest formula, it sug-gests that in a matter of eight years it will double, and probably, given inflation, in a matter of five years it will have doubled, in a matter of eight years it will have tripled. MR. DQNOGHUE: The Commission could by rule require that the licensees pay the cost of this system. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: For what? MR. DONOGHUE: For phone and recurrent costs asso-ciated with phones and the *rest. We did it because there was apparently an urgent requirement to do so, there was no way of getting CO~ft1ISSIONER KENNEDY: Whose requirement? MR. DONOGHUE: The Co:mr.:tission, as I understood it. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: So that gives us the right to put that cost on the licensee? MR. DONOGHUE: I'm only suggesting it may be one way.

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!I " ii 'I ii L COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That might be the way to get our new headquarters building. (Laughter.) COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: An emergency need for this. Obviously, it's an emergency. Therefore, it should be paid for irnmedia tely out of some loan we can get at.a local bank, secured by the assets of all *the licensees, who would be required to pay for it. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I don't think we need nearly all their assets. COV~1ISSIONER KENNEDY: For a loan against this agency's building? Hah. licensee. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: A modest levy against the All right, what else have we got? ADP services. MR. DONOGHUE: That's the same thing we discussed earlier. That's a result of increased requirements from TMI. CHAIRV.lA.N HENDRIE: Did I understand, or have I got it all screwed up again, that NRR's estimate and maybe yours, too, of a shortage of dollars back in that :8 million is made up in part here? MR. TroUTMA.'1-J: Yes. IDok in the first colurm, 2839. Add on that 1.1, okay, that's in the $7 million budget. In the next column, the 2286, add on another 1.3. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I thought it was 2. Well, no I t* I I

mte 7 96 2 12 11 13 Ii 11 11 matter; something like that.

MR. TRJUTMA...T'J:

It would be 1. 28. If you add those together, you come up with 3.5 in the '81 year and 3.9 in the '80 year. So both of those are short. GHAIR..MAN HENDRIE: Still short. MR. TRJUTMAN": We' re trying to buy 3300 hours in ' 80, 3700 hours in '81, because we don't think we'll be able to buy* $1, 0 0 0 an hour computer time. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: So that means that the $8 million

• back there in the other table, plus the 2286 for ADP services here_

well, this is part of a set-aside or what is it? MR. GOSSI CK: A supplemental._ MR. DONOGHUE: It's really an '80 supplementaf, I i4 carried 15 16 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: It's an 1 80 supplemental. It's part of the 1 81 request. But the 8 million you had under admin ADP plus the 2286 under the '81 budget still fails by something like between one and two million bucks to buy NRR the amount of time they think they're going to need, even if you could get it at $1,000. No, that's not right. It would justify it at a thousand. MR. TR'.)U'IMAl.;J: That I s what the Budget :Be view Group said. It' s by the $1,000 an hour and that's what they get. CHAIRl'U'.lJ HENDRIE: And you don't think it's going

rote 8 -~ 2 ? 11. r;.., 6 7 8 u lO 1 ~! 1~ l3 i4 15 16 i 17.1 97 to come anywhere near that?,* MR. TROUTMAN: T'ney say now that they' re not able to get anywhere near $1,000 an hour and since the requirements have expanded, the additional purveyors, they 1 re going to have to get more priority time to avoid getting into that infinite Q. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: I'd stick a couple of million bucks in this item, because if they need the time in fiscal "81~ you know, we'll just find the money wherever we have to. (At 2:55 p..m. Commissioner Gilinsky entered the room.) CHAIR.l'-'I.AN HENDRIE: And if they're going to need it, maybe we'd do better to sort of stick it in the beginning. We probably won't get it all from the Congress anyway, but at least we.could show we tho'ught about it. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Can I add the supplemental '81, '82, '83 lines to the Administration budget summary and get what the total request is, then? MR. DONOGHUE: Yes, sir. 18 Ii COJY.!MISSIONER AHEARNE: That still falls in some II i9 ii cases below the EDO mark. ij ,1 20 :: I! ii 21 Ii II 2~ I. .t. ii 11 23 I! ,,,. ii -" ** II MR. DONOGHUE: That still gets below. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Maybe '82 and '83 are unimportant here. That's where the difference is. MR. DONOGHUE: Oh, that's where it is? He still t,,ce-Feceral Reoorrers, Inc. ; finds a discrepancy between the EDO mark and our mark. I think it might be the set-aside. 25 i I I I I :

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• 12 98 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Let's.see. I've just lost.it. Okay, I think that ADP column needs another 2 million MR. DONOGHUE: On this chart, the 150 K for unit inspectors covers -- COlfLMISSIONER KENNEDY: Excuse me. I.vIR. DONOGHUE: Yes, sir. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Are we reaching the point where we would be better off investing in a fairly high-power computer of our own? MR. DONOGHUE: We're getting to that point, yes, sir.: COJV1'..MISSIONER KENNEDY: We I re talking about $13 million for one year in this category of expense, and that's 13 *1' a whole lot of money. I ,I 14 !! CO:Ml-USSIONER GI LINSKY: You' re talking about a I 15 16 18 19 Ii 'i I, ,1 20 !i it I 21 I I 22 11 ~~,I 2~ I! 11 24 :i computer? COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That's right. I guess I'd like to see -- MR. DONOGHUE: We have in preparation a paper that's still being massaged, to come to the Commission on the question! of whether or not the Comrnission ought to have 11 ,t,.cr.-Federal Reperters, Inc. iJ 25 ii COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Lease or buy. There comes a time when a decision of that kind ought to be made, and it ought to be made on the basis of an estim~ted total payout. And at 13 million pl.us a year and going up, I guess I'd like d ii ii II to see the economics.

rnte 10 99 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 'I I, 10 !I !l Ii 11 i I '.., I !.L I I I 13 ;i I I i4 I 15 16 17 18 19 i I I 20 11 21 I ij Ii -~ 22 ii "3,I 11 t: li 2l$ :; I ! Ace-Fecerai Reoorters, Inc. !i 25 ii I* 11 ii,, i! It MR. DONOGHUE: Yes. COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: When is that coming out? MR. DONOGHUE: Charlie, where do we stand on that paper? MR. TROUI'MAN: We have all the remarks from all of the offices, and I 1 ve prepared a summary comparing and contrasting the views with some of the offices' remarks, the idea that a machine can do everything. There are a lot of problems. So I 1 ve prepared that addendum. In addition, we have the consultant, a fellow who helps on the document control system. So we have his criti-cisms. And the attempt was then made to answerhis criticisms and questions. Part of thi-s was tci go back to the off ices and 1 show what the time in licensing time or, you know, have you not been able to issue a license because you didn't have computer time. That was this kind of a question. So we sent that back to Mattson and Schroeder in the middle of TMI. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: But they received it? CHAIRJ\\-"'!.AN HENDRIE: It didn 1 t get much of an answer. MR. TROUTMAN': But some of the staff thought they should go to work on it. However, that's a very involved problem, to ask a question of the engineering staff like that, you know, to work backwards on what deadlines, milestones of licensee decisions may be coming, days of reactor time lost.

rote 11 100 7 8 9 12 COM.l.'-1ISSIONER KENNEDY: Maybe that's not just the only question. MR. DONOGHUE: No, it wasn't. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: There's another question: What do you get for $13 million? COMMISSIONER GILINSKY: Are we occupying the core of a iliarge machine? MR. DONOGHUE: My understanding of what you have to have for justification to GSA in the first instance, and to 0MB in the second, independent of the budget, involves cost payouts and ben~fits on a ten-year planning horizon. And we I didn't have that yet, and we I re trying to get a handl.e on those i 13 j. things, so that when the Commissfon looks at it they'll have 14 15 16 I! ,o 11 l, Ii i 9 ii

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!i 20 ii ii ij 21 [! ii 2,., I; - I! 231! I 24 !! Ace-Federal Reoorters, Inc. 1 25 i I i I I a complete vision of what this involves in terms of both the near-term problem and the longer-term problem. It also involves not only the question of the 10 million. Commissioner Kennedy, which you see here, but the significant dollars that are being paid out by *Research £or computer time in the laboratories. And that is the other thing; If we're going to have an energy mainframe, a computer, we ought to be taking the work everywhere to do it on it. That's one of the problems we brought into it. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: We don't necessarily need it, but there should be some break point where it's economical for you to have your own computer. That doesn't automatically

mte 12 2 8 ,. 1! 'i ii I, Ii 10 Ii II !( " I 13 Ii Ii 14 I 15 I 16 17 101 mean everything works to the end. MR. DONOGHUE: That 1 s right. COJ.11.MISSIONER KENNEDY: There are several optional mixes of what can be put on a machine, each with its own economics, and I guess that's what I'd like to see. MR. DONOGHUE: That's what *this paper will address, yes, sir. CHAI.RMAN HENDRIE: Okay, onward. CO~fr1ISSIONER KENNEDY: When will we see this paper? COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I think what Charlie's saying is that part of it is based upon the response time of NRR to some of the questions. MR. TIDUTMAN: 'Ib this extensive set of questions by the consultant on agency policy and all, whereas just looking at the measures of the dollars spent here versus dollars spent I somewhere else, and if there's a least-cost solution to getting! I this work done. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That's exactly what I'm looking I at. Then we can talk about the high policy questions. That 1 s the question I want to know the answer to. Then I can think about what the policy ought to be. MR. TIDUTMAN: I can certainly answer that question with the original paper. Then only can the office come back and try to put other things on the scientific regime, the $5 million that we may be throwing otherwise commercially. The original

rote 13 102 paper did address your question, that is, it's certainly a 2 lower-cost solution to have our own machine, but the offices 3 I then want to put on all their other things -- ISIS and the 4 payroll. COI'--ll'1ISSIONER KENNEDY: So it m2.kes sense from a ~! I 6 !! policy point of view that, as long as they want to put more on 7 it and we really maybe can't do that, it's better, presumably, 8 to keep going with the higher-cost solution? 9 IJ 10 !I ii ll 111 MR. TRJurMAN: I 1 ve never concluded that, sir. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I don 1 t, either. But that 1 s sort of where we are at the moment. COJl:1MISSIONER AHEARNE: There may be a few nuances in 13 ji

• there tha't. can make i:t a little more -complicated than that.

Ii 1.:1. ! COJVll'-1ISSIONER KENNEDY: I understand that. But I 15 1 think it probably turns out to be something about as simple as i 16 a long-run policy question while the economics continue to eat ,7 !I us up. Let me suggest that that I s one of the quickest ways

I 18 II that I know of in the literature to go into bankruptcy.

The !I I* 19 ii !l II 20 ! i 21 22 !i II 2~ 11 J,I j! ,1 24 :1 ,I only reason we don 1 t is because Government agencies seldom do. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The bulk of the computing time at this agency -- COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: We've got a limitless tax base, the way bureaucrats always do. One more addition to the tax base.* Ace-Feceral Renorters, Inc. i II 25 I !i CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Let me point out to you that the 11 i1 ![ I:

mte 14 2 I! 11 !I

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'I II 4 ii Ii s II Ii 6 11 ii II *I 7 Ii s I I 9 ii li,, it 10 !i i!., .,, Ii / I 12 13 14 15 16 ~ 7 i8 19 20 21 ')'l ,1...,i. 23 24 Ace-Federnl Reoorters, Inc. 25 e-4 103 bulk of the investment this agency makes in computer time is made on Government computers. It's not made on coIT~ercial machinesr it's made on Government computers. Now you know, we may think that we can run a 7600 cheaper than Brookhaven can. Lots of luck, fellows. I've worked both places. Lots of luck. My guess is that your.hourly cost -- COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Who owns the 7600 computer at Brookhaven? CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: The Government of the United States I of America, and we get it at their cost. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Okay. CHAIPYiAN HENDRIE: You jµst can't do better. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: That's a basic consideration in :-.the cost study. CHAIRM..~N HENDRIE: That is my view. MR. DONOGHUE: I'm very l:eery of commercial time-sharing. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I've been in places where we studies have been done that it would be a lot cheaper and faster to get your own computer, and what you ended up with was your own computer. It was cheaper and faster. CHAIRJYlA.N HENDRIE: Yeah. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: But we are going to see the day. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: True. Let us charge ahead.

i.

I i i

'2-55050 l I kap 104 (Slide.) MR. DONOGHUE: The set-asides~ I've already 3 discussed the three for plain English and the conversionsr 4 the ISI~ was discussed by Bill Dircks. I S I S i s o n l y -c. he 5 repository of the money for which r~m eternally grateful. 6 COMMISSIO!{ER AHEARNE: In other words~ you don't 7 have to argue for it. 8 J,;'.={. DONOGHUE: night.. The c:1ocu;nen t control Y system~ this is a requirement of NRR that we backfit at an l n l i 12 accalerateci pace all of che Babcock & Wilcox plants plus* abouc 14 others. This was Denton's request to me, that they immediately on an accelerated basis be backfitted into the 13 docuffient control systeG. 14

• I 5 16

~hat this implies is a second shift. (:()1,if,iISSIO;~E:F? AHEARlJE: ls chis a formal request? ~ r:-,,

tiil ** J(jJ<C)GHUE

Yes, it's a for~al letter from 17 Denton to me, spelling out a formal list of the plants that lB they nBed backfitted. Quite frankly, if we did not have 19 this TARA sys-c.em when TMI hit, we'd have been in awful 20 conjition. In order to be responsive to the investigative 21 committees, to the license reviewers themselves, as I 22 understand they're standing in.line down there at the TMI 23 investigation to get on the terminals. 25 Ne're trying to provide them with a method. It/s the only systematic w2y we could have gotten at the

>25505022 kap 2

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)

16 17 i8 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 105 documents. I think they put 12,000 documents on the system just related to TMI-1 already. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Are these for all the B&W plants? ~ MK. DUi~OGnUc: I think it1 s 16 plants there and abou1: 14 SEP. CHAlRMAN HENDRIE: Well, better get it done. CD!',1MISSIONER KB-;NEDY: Why is the set-aside 2300 in /80 and 'Ul reducing Lhe numbers, if l/m correct, to 2500 in '60 and 4~00 in 1 61? (Commissioner Bradford entered the room at 3:07.) CC)HMISSIOr~ER KEi-JNEDY: Whereas in,32 there is no s~t-aside, causing a 100 percent increase betwBen '81 and '62. Wnat's che reasoning for this? CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Where are we? COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: I,m looking at Lhis. CO/viM I SS ION ER kHEARNE: But do you subtract the set-aside from it? CC);l\\J,\\ISSIDNER i(ENNEDY: Do you take the set-a.side out of these numbers or is the set-aside already out? l/iR. DONOGHLJE: The set-aside is already out. CCH/iMISSIONER KENNEDY: Well, okay, my question is just slightly different than why do we want, you know, what,s the purpose of the set-aside? What;s served by what

'2.5505033 kap 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 y lO l l i2 l3 14 i5 16 l7 lo 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 106 would appear to be a slowdown in the eerly years? MR. DONOGHUE: It.J's intended to *be an acceleration in the early years. COMMISSIONER KEUNEDY: Not given the set-aside? MR. DONOGHUE: The set-aside would be provided to increase, to put on a second shift to address just these s pe c i f i c pl an ts

• COMJ*.:ISSIONER KENNEDY:

But why.is it set aside? MR. DONOGHuE: It was set aside initially, I guess, by the BhG, because they wanted a firm requirement from Denton to me, nu@ber one, and that's also for Co~mission consideration, because the Commission agreed that putting these plants on the system at an accelerated rate with a second shift is importan~ enough to spend the extra dollars needed for it. ccn;MISSIONER AHEARNE: The rest of the program, then, as you get out i~to J82 and ~83 would be picking up the other plants. MR. DONOGHUE: ThaU's right. lie intended intially to start backf i tting in 1*s1 but on a much more, you know, leisurely basis. Something like 750 documents a day, current, and about 250 documents a dayi backfit, was the sort of mix we were thinking about. COM11HSSIONER AHEARHE: On -chat schedule, assuming you do get the ser,-aside, when will all the current plants

>2.5505044 kap 107 be on the 2

MR. DONOGHUE; I think weJve estirna ted on the 3 current plants, I think we"re talking about -- with the 4 set-asiae, which will be devoted entirely to backfit -- 5 about 12 to 15 plants a year, is that right, to get them in? 6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: So you would expect 7 somewhere around what, _.,. 83, _.,. 84?q 8 VUICE: .,GS, four years out.o /*.\\R. DONOGHUE: Then there"s a question should all 10 of tnem be done? I guess a lot of that woula depend on some ! 1 o:f the old':;r ones a 12 C(UHISSIONER AHEARNE: But the older ones are 13 going to be the ones that are going to -- 14 15 i6 17 MR. DOlWGnUE: According to the SEPS, i:.he ones that are identified for SEP clearly _are in this. COMMISSIOHER KENNEDY: What will the 2300 add? MR. DONOG:-!UE: That" 11 add the capability of i8 putting about 12 to 15 on a year, faster than we anticipated 19 on the regular schedule, which would have probably allowed 2G us something like two or three a year. Before the need to 21 do this 22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: At least in theory, you 23 would then somewhere in the out years, if you were looking 2~ at the total cost strea~, see some reduction. 25 MR. DONOGHUE: Oh, yes. f~e would expect that we_.,.d j

'25505055 108 be on a current basis, and it would level o+/-f~ 2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Vm pu_zzled by the way this 3 slide adds -- if I look at. this sheet, I-'ve got a set-aside 4 on the -'BO supplement of 52.3 mi.llion, and then 226 travel, 5 what happens to the ISIS? 6 MR. BAP.P.Y: On the Isis chart, Dan, for fiscal 7 ye a r., 8 0, t he re i s no $ 2 rn i 11 ion i n., 8 0

• The re., s not hi n g
• i n 2

'GO for ISIS. 9 MR. DONOGHUE: I thought there was 600 or 10 something. 11 MR. BARRY: There was 600 in the President..,s 12 bud9et for ISIS, which, when they reduced our safeguards 13 prograr:-1 because it v,as under program.. support, they reduced 14 us by 4.b million. The $600,000 for ISIS fell out far ~s l5 1 ,C Bill Dircks was concerned, as*a matter cit priority. So at this point ir. ti.me, _there,.s nothing for ISIS in /80, unless 17 the Commission determines through whatever means, that that 18 600 comes back in. jy COW1 1d SS I ONER AHEARNE: So as far as the set-aside, 20 your records would say zero? 21 MR. BARRY: Zero. So in 1 81 the ISIS program 22 starts at that figure. 23 24 25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: What 1 s the report? MR. DONOGHUE: I think there" s some problem between Larry, who handles it for me, and the Comptroller

25505066 kap .109 about where it belongs, and where it went in. 2 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Is there any disagreement with 3 drawing a line through the $2 million on this slide? 4 CUMMISSim~E:s: KEM,;EiJY: Except to wonder what the 5 effect of doing it is4 6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Apparently it wasn't in the 7 plans. 8 MR. DONOGHUE: Yes, apparently it was put in, 9 Larry says in some direction, I don't know how. 10 l l MR. BARRY: I haven't the slightest idea. COMMISSIONER Kfii1EDY: What was the $2 million 12 supposed to buy? 13 HR. DONOGHUE: I assume it was to ini tia~e -- 14. C()MMISSIOHER KENNEDY: The right amount, but the l ::i wrong guy. 16 MR. QlSSICK; The paper before the C6mmission is 17 recommending going out to an RFP. That would be with '80 18 money, if we went outright. jy MR. BARRY: Well, yes. The recommendation to the 20 CoriJi11i ttee which is to go out with an RFP to star1: the 21 program in FY '80 at $600,000 and then 2.7 in JBJ, and as 22 you see it up there. 24 25 MR. GOSSICK: The $600,000 is available somewhere? MR. BARRY: The $600,000 was available. MR. GClSSICK: Did it carry over? It would be

r

i2.55050 77 kap 2

3 4 5 6 7 8 9 j () 11 12 l3 14 1 - .) 16 17 18 lY 2C 21 22 23 24 25 110 available in /81 -- I mean, in /80? MR. BARRY: If the Commi*ssion wanted to support ISIS with $600,000 or any number in '80, we would have to progra~ it at the moment in '80. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: The ref ore -- CHAI RJ,LAH HENDFd E: Either that or add it to the ,.. 80 supplement. i.iR. BAERY: Dr a.dd.it to the,.. 80 supplement. COMMISSIC):'1ER KENNEDY: So the set-aside of $2000 is wrong, bu~ a set-asiae of S600,000 ought to have been ~here. MR. BARRY: No. That was not a BRG position~ or anyone's suggestion, that it would be added for a su ~opl ertieJ1 tal o In the,..80 budget before the safeguards program was reduced. MR. QlSSICK: Are you saying it,..s no longer there? MR. BARRY: It,..s no longer there. J.'.F?. G()SSICi(: I see, because of the reciuction in the safeguards program? MR. BARRY: Right, because it was program support. We are now changing it to Admin. support 9 where it should have been all along. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Will you get a hold of Dircks

25505088 kap 2 4 5 0 7 8 9 10 l l 12 13 14

• i5 16 17 i6 19 L\\J 21 22 23 24 25 111 and figure out, you.know, on this sheet which 1 propose to use as the basis for a final mark-up should there be -

MR. DONOGHUE: Yeah, any money at all in.1'80. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Something stuck in there in the '80 supplement to that column for ISIS. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, you won't have an answer for you. His answer will be, it's up to you. He would like to get ISIS startedf but he has elec~ed not to sustain $600,000 in his budget as a.result of his reduction in sefeyuards. +-' .. ne CO!'.\\!'.i: ISSI ONER KEi'iNEDY: But it., s not in his budget, i t ' s o v er he :r e

• Ci-!AIR!.f:Ai'J HE1~DRit:i Is t.he $2.7 million in '81 MR. BARRY:

That's the correct number. CHAIRMAN 'HENDRIE: In order to get the $2.7 million in '61, do you have to have put 60b against it in MR. BARRY: You do not. MFi. GClSSICKi Can't you? MR. BARRY~ You simply do not start the program as early as you would have liked to. COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: If you put $600,000 in..-80, do you then for the same program that's now visualized by this sheet need $2.7 million in ~81? MR. BARRY: Yes.

25505099 leap 112 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: So if you want to do $2. 7 2 million in '81, you have to have done the 600 in JBO? 3 MR. BARRY: No, you really don't. 4 5 6 is? 7 but -- d COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: Do you know what the answer I don't have the foggiest notion. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: I know what Len is saying, CHAJRMAN HENDRIE: Maybe you.could see if you Y could get straight with Dircks what we want to do in terms 10 of this budget, with regard to the '80 supplement on ISIS, l 1 okay? i2 There is an incompa~ibili ty be1:ween these two 13 sheets, which I want to get straightened out and it would be 14 helpful if you'd get back to us. Now, for '81, ~hy the $2.7 15 million ISIS. the additional $2.3 million document contiol, 16 the $1 million in unit inspection administration costs, 17 indeed makes the $6 million set-aside that is on my main 18 sheet. So that seems satisfactory. 19 Go ahead and explain the rest of this to us, if 20 you can. 21 MR. DONOGHUE: The million is the unit inspection 22 aaministration cost. And that's to cover movement of 23 household goods, the furniture, all of the costs that go 24 with the individual. 25 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: And that travel line down there

255051010 kap 2 3 is for what? MR. DONOGHUE: That" s for household goods. CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: That is also inspection prograr, unit inspectors. 113 4 5 liif-L DONOGHUE: Right. I think that concludes, 6 except there is an '83 set-aside which is the cost of 7 movement to the new building. Y difference? iu 1,'.R. L:OM)GHUE: No, sir. 1 I COi'01i,1ISSIOUER ArlEARNE: So roughly it contains the 12 same amount of money whether you consolidate to Silver 13 Spring, Rockville, 5ethesd2 or Washington? 14 16 17 MR. DONOGHUE: From this Agency,..s standpoint. e ssenti2lly yes, costwis~. MR. DONOGHUE: Frederick would make a difference. 18 You,..d have a change of duty stations. It would be a de IY minimus, really. 2() C),,~;!,ISSIOl'JER AHEABNE: In the licensing effort 21 that you have, did you make any assumption about whether or 22 not there are current congressional actions to try to vote 23 for charging a more direct cost of licensees if it would 24 have an effect on the size? 25 MR. DOHOGHUE: No, primarily because of the

)25505 l 1 l 1 kap 2 3 4 5 6 7 r 0 y i(J l l i2 l3 )4 l :; l6 l7 lo l9 2 ~) 21 22 ?- _ _j 24 25 114 totally unsettled state of that unit. As you know, our own situation is coming in the Fifth Circuit in New Orleans and the delicate legality of the whole thing, particularly as I understand the proposal on the Hill, would probably run into this constitutional difficulty. But it would certainly be attacked immediately on the basis that it's just a tax levy, in effect, rather than -- one of the prcblerr,s we had was the problem of equating costs to value to the recipient and they're not completely coex.-,ensi vs, al t:hougn t:1'1e Court of Appeals has reco,;inized costs as an indicia of value. That's what we would predicBte on our own fee schedule -- CC),'_,;;,;rsSIOrIE~: Ai-IE.ARNE~ 2ut: the net result of that is that you've got to assu~e that whatever action Congress t:aKes that il, will no~ lead to an increased eff~rt on the

• part cf your staff.

MR. DC)lWGHUE: I think that~s fair because with the schedule that we have now, it would not be too di~ferent in concept:, which is a cost recovery based either on actual cos~s of doing it or on an avaraging of costs. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE: Do you people do your own estimates of costs? MR. DOlJOGHU E ~ For t:he se, they' re based on the information provided to us by the NRR and I&E and NMSS. In terms of man hours expencied, we develop the cost basis.

255051212 kap Co:\\{MISSIONER AHEARNE~ So that if anything, you 2 .might have more people coming on? 3 MR. DONOGHUE: Yes, sir. 4 CCl i.i;,; ISSI ON Ei-: 5 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY: What,, s the net increase in 6 cost of the conversion of 156 people? 7 MR. DONOGHUE: In terms of dollars, I don1 t think 5 there is any increase. lt's strictly a status distinction ~ and some benefits. 10 MR. BARRY: Benefits are about seven to nine l l percent depending on who it is, but I guess on the average 12 it is about eight. That would be the delta. 13 1 4 figure. 15 l 6' 17 CC)J,\\l,dSSIDNER AHEARi~E~ There should be some dollar MR. BARRY: Yes. MR. BARRY: We..,re using $35,000. I don't know. l 6 They're so all over the place.

• 19 MR. DONOGHUE:

I would say about a Grade 5, grade 20 aver age, v1 hi ch vJoul d corn pen sate. The meci i an grade probably, 21 of these people -- 22 ]\\'lR. Bi\\RRY: $12,000, $14,000, I don/t know. 1~Je 23 could price it ou~ in an hour. 24 25 MR. DONOGHUE: It would not be significant. MR. BARRY: The dollar impact would be very 115

[255051313 kap I little, relatively little". 2 MR. GDSSICK: Assuming 18K average, it.,s only 3 $183,000. 4 COMt,*\\I SS ID:*!ER KEJ,JNED'(: Could I asK one more ~ question, I know you must have covered it but it's a minor 6 detail. What are ~he seven temporaries in Property and 7 Management doing? 8 7,fR. DOlWGi-!UE: They"re involved with moving Y furniture. JO CU/,irHSSI01ER Kcl--INELJY: Okay. i 1 MR. DONOGHJ!::~ Along those lines, i2 CHAIRl-,*\\A; HElhJRIE: More c~uestions? 13 (No response.) i4 CHAIRMAH i:-]El'WRIE: All righ~

• MP.. DUNOGrlLJC::

'ihank you all very.much for the 16 opportunity. 17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE: Thank you very much. i5 (!'hereupon, the meeting was adjourned at 3:25 JS,, p.m.) 21 22 23 24 25 116}}