ML21225A686
| ML21225A686 | |
| Person / Time | |
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| Issue date: | 03/08/2021 |
| From: | NRC/EDO |
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| References | |
| NRC-1420 | |
| Download: ML21225A686 (28) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
33rd Regulatory Information Conference Daily Staff Talks - Risks - Deconstructed Docket Number: (n/a)
Location: teleconference Date: Monday, March 8, 2021 Work Order No.: NRC-1420 Pages 1-25 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
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33RD REGULATORY INFORMATION CONFERENCE (RIC)
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DAILY STAFF TALKS RISK - DECONSTRUCTED
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MONDAY, MARCH 8, 2021
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The RIC session convened via Video Teleconference, at 2:45 p.m. EST, Alysia Bone, NMSS, presiding.
PRESENT:
ALYSIA BONE, Futures Communications Lead, OEDO JOSEPH DONOGHUE, Director, Division of Safety Systems, NRR/NRC MEENA KHANNA, Director, Division of Resource Management and Administration, NRR/NRC BRIAN KEMKER, Senior Resident Inspector, Vogtle Resident Office, Division of Construction Oversight, RII/NRC P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2 2:46 p.m.
MS. BONE: Hello, and welcome to the first ever staff talk of the first ever virtual Regulatory Information Conference at the NRC. I'm Alysia Bone and I'll be your host for these chats which are really just an opportunity to sit down with some of our NRC employees, talk a little bit about the day, their impressions of the RIC, and just some topics of interest. You can see the question answer queue on the right-hand side of your screen. That's actually not going to be monitored during this little chat.
Thanks for joining for today's session which is about "Risk - Deconstructed." I've got a very esteemed group of speakers today with us. I have Joe Donoghue, Director of the Division of Safety Systems in the Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation, or NRR; Meena Khanna, who is the Director of the Division of Resource Management and Administration in the Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation; and Brian Kemker, who is the Senior Resident Inspector at the Vogtle Units 3 and 4 which are under construction in Waynesboro, Georgia.
Joe, Meena, Brian, thank you for joining NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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3 today. It's great to have you here.
Joe, I want to start with you, but before we dive into today's topic, I want to know what do you think about the first virtual RIC? How did today go for you?
MR. DONOGHUE: Wow, it was pretty exciting. You know, as you can tell, along the way some risks came true maybe. One virtual session had a hard time getting started. Maybe during this session there might be some hesitation in the internet connection. We're working our way through it. It's great.
A couple of things that I noticed while watching the proceedings earlier, this topic is central to a lot of what the agency does. No surprise. The chairman's remarks brought that center stage.
Also, the exhibits are great. If you have time, anybody who is listening, take the time to go to those virtual exhibits. "The Future is Now" took me a good part of my morning to work through.
It's a lot of good material. So I'm really excited.
This is great.
MS. BONE: Awesome, Joe. Thank you for NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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4 that. Yes, absolutely. That is something I was thinking today as I was watching the session, the plenary session with Margie, and the discussion there of how risk was used, the risk insights were thought about at NIH throughout the development of COVID 19 vaccinations.
It was an incredibly exciting first day of the RIC. I'm glad you sort of helped us intro into our first topic of the staff talks, which is "Risk - Deconstructed." Set the stage for us a little bit, Joe.
You know, risk, obviously, is not new to the NRC. We have been a risk-informed agency for many, many years. We have a Safety Goal Policy Statement, which was, you know, developed more than 30 years ago, that talks about risk considerations.
Risk-informed regulations are at the heart of our regulatory framework.
Why is being a modern risk-informed regulator a vision for transformation? As folks might know, we're on this journey to be a modern risk-informed regulator. What is it about risk that's different today than the way we've talked about or thought about risk in years past?
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5 MR. DONOGHUE: So I've had plenty of chance and opportunity to think about this because I've been at the agency for 30 years now. I began as a technical reviewer, you know, reactor engineer.
At that point, you know, PRA was its own kind of, I think you've heard the word, siloed, its own kind of discipline, and the rest of us were doing our own deterministic kind of approach.
Definitely over the years that's changed.
Now we are getting more and more used to across the agency looking at aspects of risk in what we do.
Just as you can see with the panels we have here, and also from some of the other presentations you have seen earlier today, it's not just in the reactor or the materials, the technical aspects of where the risk is. There's enterprise risk. In our work in being a regulator legal risks, and risks on how we communicate with the public. One thing that really got my attention earlier today was how much trust in what we do is important to being effective. I mean, it came up in chairman's remarks.
It came up with Dr. Mascola, I think is his name, with NIH mentioned that as well where, you know, our ability to do our job is not just how NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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6 accurate we are, how many decimal places for something we're calculating. It's also how we can communicate safety conclusions in our business in order to elicit trust and be effective. That's a big part of our job. So all those things -- I've been in this particular position, this job, for a little over a year now and it's kind of where I started, as I mentioned, as a technical review. As kind of a technical organization, being able to understand and communicate all the technical, but also nontechnical, aspects of risk in an issue is important.
I think the NRC as a whole, the staff all the way up to the EDO and the chairman, we're much more integrated. I'll say we're much more -- we understand each other a lot more maybe than we did 30 years ago when I was first here where somebody talked about risk and I really didn't understand what that meant when I first looked at it.
One last thing I'll say is it's still a goal. I think the chairman also said this. I think that being risk informed in everything we do is still a goal. We've gone a long way but I'll say that Be riskSMART is an initiative that has gained a lot of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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7 ground but I think it has a lot of potential to get us even better at this.
MS. BONE: Thank you so much for that, Joe. Absolutely. So much of what you said resonated with me personally. I started at the agency 13 years ago now as a risk and reliability analyst. I learned so much at that point what risk meant to the agency and now I have seen it continue to bloom and expand in terms of how we communicate with risk, as you mentioned, risk communications being so critical across disciplines.
Which brings me to Meena. I want to talk to you a little bit about what it means. What does risk consideration mean in your world? Joe mentioned enterprise risk, sort of the corporate side of the house. Again, you are the Division Director for the Division of Resource Management and Administration in NRR. Talk to me about how risk considerations show up in your world?
MS. KHANNA: Thanks for that question, Alysia. As you've heard from Joe, and I'm just going to be totally honest, when I took on the role here in DRMA, and I come from the technical side, when we're talking about risk being a modern risk-informed NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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8 regulator, I'm going to be totally honest and say, eh, I don't have to worry about this because it doesn't apply to us on the corporate side.
We are fortunate enough, and I think many of you had the opportunity to listen to Mirela and Candace in a previous discussion where they demonstrated, applied, and showed us how to apply the Be riskSMART initiative. What we were fortunate in having was to have both of them join our division, basically have a division meeting, and they basically introduced us to a concept of the Be riskSMART initiative.
They conveyed to us, hey, this is not just a technical thing. As we all know, we can apply risk in every aspect of our jobs here whether you're here at the agency, whether you're in industry.
We've heard that everyone is doing it and it's working very, very well.
Joe just mentioned that we are nowhere near where we want to be but, I've got to tell you, we are definitely making some great strides and I think you guys are going to hear more and more. In response to your question, Alysia, I'm so proud of my division, DRMA, Division of Resource Management and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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9 Administration. We've really, really done an amazing job.
My branch team, management team, my staff, what we're looking for is we are basically looking for ways to improve our processes. How can we implement efficiencies in our processes? How can we also leverage data analytics and be able to make more timely decision making? And what tools can we develop on our own to be able to help us to do our job and to support the executive team and the leadership team with decision making?
Very briefly, I'll just mention one item that we did do is we streamlined our office instruction process. What we did there was basically shed a whole layer of management review and what we determined is why not have those managers focus on the more risk-significant initiatives and allow the others to be able to review those. Small, small little thing there but, I tell you, it's a huge savings in time and resources.
Secondly, we also developed two dashboards. We developed a human capital dashboard as well as a budget financial dashboard. Both of those we've leveraged to be able to provide our LT NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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10 updates on where we are on hiring, you know, the budgeted resources. Basically, it's been wonderful.
It basically gives a one-stop shop to all the LT and ET as to where we are on hiring.
Secondly, the dashboard that we also developed was financials and that's been wonderful to be able to communicate to the office, as well as the divisions, what they are doing with budget execution.
Those two have been really, really helpful.
Lastly, I wanted to also mention that one of our branch chiefs, Kirk Foggie, who you guys are going to hear from on Wednesday, developed an awards tool which, again, this has been like so amazing. It has saved us so many resources. It's helping out the leadership team when they are identifying resource -
- I'm sorry, awards.
They are able to actually see first-hand in one place what their budget is, what their remaining budget is, what they've submitted for awards. In a nutshell I just wanted to say these are just a few examples. We've got plenty more that we've done and we're looking forward to doing more.
The other thing that I wanted to also mention is the communication piece. What we've been NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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11 doing is we've been trying to also communicate to our other Division of Resource Management and Administration organizations across the agency of what tools we're using so they can also implement them and gain the benefits and efficiencies that we are here in NRR.
MS. BONE: Wow, Meena. You guys have clearly been very busy. Lots of great work. What I love about everything you just sort of laid out for us is that, you know, again our vision for transformation is to be this modern risk-informed regulator.
As Joe mentioned, that doesn't just apply to the "technical" side of the house. That applies to our corporate, legal, all disciplines across the board. Hearing how you're helping us get there in sort of the corporate world is really exciting.
Thank you for connecting those dots for us.
So shifting gears a little bit. Again, Brian, you are the senior resident inspector at the Vogtle 3 and 4 sites under construction in Georgia.
I think we have a picture actually of Brian on the job. Can we pull that up? I think it's slide 4.
Do we have that teed up? It's not that one but we've NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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12 got another -- there we go. There's Brian.
Tell us, Brian, where are you? What are you doing in this picture?
MR. KEMKER: I am inside the unit 4 reactor containment building and that's actually fairly early in the construction. That dates back a couple of years ago. Probably near grade elevation.
You can see the wall of the containment, the steel containment there. I'm standing on some scaffolding.
Posing for a picture at the time but typically we'll take cameras out with us to take pictures of different things that we happen to be inspecting at any given time.
MS. BONE: Incredible. I'm glad we got to see a little bit of -- a little slice of what you experience as a senior resident inspector there. How have risk considerations played out in some of the work that you've done at Vogtle?
MR. KEMKER: Well, I guess, to answer your question, Alysia, I have to look -- I take it from the focus of what we do with the inspection program. I have to mention 10 CFR Part 52 and ITAAC.
For those who don't know, Vogtle Units 3 and 4 are Westinghouse AP1000 units and they are the first two NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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13 plants to be built and licensed under Part 52.
Combined operating license under Part 52 enables the licensee to construct a plant and operate it once construction is complete if certain identified standards in the combined license are satisfied. These standards are what we call inspections, tests, analyses, and acceptance criteria, or ITAAC. Now, the ITAAC identifies reasonable assurance that the plant has been constructed and will operate in accordance with the combined license conditions and the NRC's rules and regulations.
Throughout the construction process, NRC inspectors perform elected inspections to confirm that the licensee has successfully completed the ITAAC. There's principally three types of inspections performed while under construction. We are actively engaged in all three of those right now.
We perform direct inspections of construction activities that are in progress like welding system piping and components, electrical installations, and building structures, and other methods like design and fabrication inspections to confirm the licensee in the end satisfies the ITAAC.
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14 In addition, we inspect licensee construction programs that would include quality assurance activities, pre-operational testing activities, and readiness of programs that will be required during plant operations later on. These inspections verify the reactor units are constructed correctly and the licensee will have the appropriate programs in place to operate them safely.
The inspection program for Vogtle 3 and 4 from the very beginning incorporated risk insights into our selection of what we inspect. We targeted or select an ITAAC for direct inspection based on the safety or risk significance of the systems, structures, and components.
As time went by and we gained experience from our inspections, we adjusted our inspection program to take advantage of what we had learned.
For example, in 2019 and early 2020 the Region II Division of Construction Oversight conducted risk-informed assessments of the remaining ITAAC inspections needed to support the 10 CFR 52-103(g) finding. That's basically what we call the all ITAAC complete finding that allows the licensee then to go on and move the fuel in to operate the units.
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15 We considered multiple perspectives in construction history when we reviewed the remaining inspection plans to determine if the NRC had performed enough inspections in a given skill set in an area or system, and the type of NRC inspections that were being performed.
Based upon all the previous work that was accomplished, the confidence that we had gained on the licensee's program up to this point, and the safety and risk of upcoming construction activities, we bundled some, deleted some, and made additions to our inspection plans.
As a result, the construction ITAAC Inspection Program was significantly re-baselined while remaining our strong focus reasonable assurance and adequate protection. All along in our process we have incorporated risk insights into what we inspect at the construction sites.
MS. BONE: Thanks for those insights, Brian. I'm really glad that you sort of emphasized, again, that in all of this, in the transformation journey and everything that we're doing. Our mission is still central, our mission to protect public health and safety, promote common defense and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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16 security remains unchanged. You know, we're enhancing the way that we carry out this mission via these things as risk considerations and other parts of our transformation.
Joe, I want to go back to you. Hearing these two examples from Meena from the corporate side, Brian from very specifically, you know, thinking how he is working on inspections at Vogtle using risk insights, can you tell me what are some commonalities that you see in the way that we use risk-informed decision making across these disciplines? What are sort of the things that sort of bubble up to the top that apply no matter what to the kind of decision that you're making?
MR. DONOGHUE: Well, I think that one thing that we all deal with, and Meena and Brian alluded to, was you make adjustments with the information that you pick up, that you learn. You might be faced with an issue and at first blush you think you know where the risks are but, as time goes on, as you learn more, you may have to make some adjustments. You may learn that things -- maybe you reduce some uncertainties in some ways. You can either add or back off on level of attention on NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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17 certain aspects.
I guess, for example, Brian, I was an inspector as you are. As you're going through your inspection program, for example, I would imagine that you have the inspection that's before you but, just as a simple example, you see something else that you didn't expect. It just doesn't look right, and you have to start asking questions.
I know in Meena's work, more often than she would like to have to deal with, there are surprises. You think you understand how, for example, our budget is being expanded but then you're hit with a surprise because there's new work that arrived or some surprise, a reduction in the number of resources in an area.
You have to deal with that, and you have to go explain that all the way up the chain and make sure the enterprise risks are still going to get the amount of attention they desire. I guess that's one thing is that -- again, to sum it up, the work that we do in all these different areas relies on understanding the situation.
You want to get as much information as you can. At some point, though, you have to kind of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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18 take the information you have, make a decision, and go. That's always a challenge knowing when you have enough information.
The other thing I'll say is we're all keeping -- no matter what we do in this agency, any of the 2,700-plus people in the agency, safety is where it's at. That's our purpose for being here, protecting the health and safety of the country.
Those are the things that are common to everything that we talked about so far.
MS. BONE: Absolutely. Absolutely, Joe.
Since this is a little bit more of an informal chat of the RIC and this is sort of still based on the conversation of risk - deconstructed, you mentioned understanding the situation, how to apply this risk-informed decision-making kind of anywhere, even in personal life. I think we actually have a picture of Joe after he made a risk-informed decision. I think it's slide 2. Do we have the picture of Joe that you can pull up? Thank you.
MR. DONOGHUE: Oh, my gosh. Okay.
MS. BONE: Surprise!
MS. KHANNA: Mr. Risk taker.
MS. BONE: Tell me, Joe, what is risky NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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19 about this situation and how did you ultimately end up taking the decision to go down the hill?
MR. DONOGHUE: So, first of all, the risk is don't send things to Alysia. Here was -- so this is pretty recent. We got for the first time in a couple years a little bit of snow in Maryland. I took advantage of it. Those are, if you squint and see real close, on my feet are cross-country skis.
I'm barely moving but I made it look good.
The point of this was, you know, there are some obvious risks and not so obvious. This goes back to the point we were just talking about where you are gathering information and maybe your first look -- here your first look at this situation is here is a guy in his 50s trying to do a tuck and go downhill and maybe is going to hurt himself.
If you look closer, you start doing some investigation and then you find out he really is taking a risk because those skis on his feet are like more than 30 years old and they are glued together and, wow, you don't want to go down too steep a hill with those.
There are some obvious risks in any situation we deal with from Brian doing his NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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20 inspections, for Meena and her staff, making sure that the lights are on and we're doing our work in this office and all over the agency. People get faced with a situation, they have to make a quick assessment, what are the risks?
You think you know but you have to keep your eyes open and your antenna tuned to additional information. Some of that information you can decide is not significant to the situation. In other ways, skiing downhill with really old skies you want to be careful and take it easy and be ready to bail out.
MS. BONE: Perfect. Thank you, Joe.
Thank you for sharing that little slice of your personal life.
MR. DONOGHUE: Sure.
MS. BONE: I have to spread the wealth a little bit.
Brian. Can we pull up the picture of the Brian? I think we had a little teaser shot of that earlier. There we go. Brian, what are you doing in this picture? This is quite different than Vogtle.
Where are you here?
MR. KEMKER: Well, we were asked to send NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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21 you a couple of pictures of, I guess, something risky in our personal lives. The photo to the right I'm actually cavern diving.
A past time that I enjoy is scuba diving.
When it comes to risk taking, I don't really consider that all that risky because I have good training and I practice my skills and I don't exceed my training or my qualifications.
I have good equipment and it's well maintained, and I routinely check it out. I would say that the first picture you showed of me inside the Unit 4 containment during construction is probably more risky than the cavern diving.
If you recall that picture, it showed all sorts of electrical power cables, temporary power cables strewn about in there, plus all the scaffolding up in the overhead. What's not shown, of course, is all the overhead crane activity that's going on all the time.
I think we have to manage our risk both industrial safety perspective on the job site, particularly on a construction job site, as well as in our day-to-day lives with some of the activities we enjoy doing whether it's downhill skiing or scuba NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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22 diving.
MS. BONE: Thank you so much for sharing that, Brian. I love the picture. I'm very impressed with your skill set here, both at Vogtle and also with scuba cave diving. You both have really touched on key components of the smart framework that we've heard about a number of times today; spotting what the risk is, different kinds of risk, understanding the situation, managing those risks.
Meena, I want to go back to you a little bit more kind of on -- more specifically on the NRC topic and the way that we are looking at the Be riskSMART framework. Can you tell me what, especially in your world, but maybe just across disciplines what do you find sort of most complicated or challenging about talking about risk, about communicating risk? What are some of the things that you're doing within your team to help people be more comfortable using the Be riskSMART framework, for instance?
MS. KHANNA: A great question, Alysia.
One, the communications aspect is so significant. I think you've heard from each one of us and from the session that we heard earlier on the risk informed NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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23 decision making, the Be riskSMART model.
I think we are effectively communicating, and we are letting folks know what are needs are and what are projects are that we're doing so that people can leverage those as well. If you think about it, we do a lot of similar work across the agency. Maybe different aspects but a lot of it is similar whether it's licensing, technical.
I'll give you an example. In NRR we have routine meetings. We meet with the executive team on a weekly basis and then we meet with a leadership team as well. My folks and myself are in both of those meetings. So now if Joe and his team are working on something, for example, like ATF, right?
That's a huge initiative. Communication may indicate, for example, I don't have enough budget needs, or I don't have enough resource needs. I need to do my hiring. What we've done like in that case in order to be able to help move the process along and get Joe the resources, or any other divisions the resources that they need, we actually in DRMA developed a streamlined hiring strategy.
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24 efficient and effective manner. If Joe or another division director indicates that they need contact funds, we've also looked at that as well and we've tried to delegate funds really quickly.
I guess in a nutshell it's really good to be able to communicate. I think the challenges occur when we're not communicating, we're not understanding what folks need to help them be successful. I also mentioned the fact that it's so important that the organizations learn from each other. We are all learning from each other. We want to benefit from it. I've mentioned the dashboards.
I can't tell you how amazing the dashboards have helped us all across the agency with data analytics to be able to make timely risk-informed decision making.
An example that we have that OCFO just recently put together. I can't tell you how great it was for my team and I to be able to leverage that information to give insights into the budget formulation for fiscal year '23.
It's just all -- I mean, in a nutshell, I would say the best that we can do is effectively communicate. Let people know what we're doing. Let NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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25 people know what our needs are and then look for ways to be more efficient and effective while still meeting our mission.
MS. BONE: Absolutely. Meena, thank you so much. These are perfect words to kind of close out here. I want to thank all three of you; Joe, Brian, Meena, thank you so much for being here today and talking to me about "Risk - Deconstructed."
Thank you all out there for being part of this very first staff talk.
Really hope you enjoyed this little chat.
Please join tomorrow not only for another full fun day of the RIC, but also for our other staff talk, our Tuesday staff talk, Overcoming the Fear of Failure. We have three exceptional panelists to talk about this topic as well.
We have Dave Nelson who is our chief information officer; Stephanie Coffin who is our deputy office director for the Office of Nuclear Regulatory Research; and Shaun Anderson who is the division director of EMBARK Venture Studio in NRR.
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26 with me. Hope you all have a wonderful evening or rest of the day.
MS. KHANNA: Thank you, Alysia.
(Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went off the record at 3:17 p.m.)
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27 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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