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Tran-M780221: Briefing on Oia Report on Apollo Testimony
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Issue date:	02/21/1978
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i UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATOR:: COMMISSION CLOSED SESSION BRIEFING ON OIA REPORT ON APOLLO TESTIMONY Room 1130 1717 H Street, N. W.

Washington, 0. C.

Tuesday, 21 February.1978 The Commission met, pursuant to notice, at 3:20 a.m.

BEFORE:

DR. JOSEPH M. HENDRIE, Chairman PETER A. BRADFORD, Commissioner VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner RICHARDT. KENNEDY, Commissioner 1..

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j*:1b P R o C E E 0 I N G S 2

COMMISSIONER HENDrHE:

Since we're gathered 3

here at the table, I think we ouJht to start the meeting.

4 So let us start this section of the Com~ission's 5

proceedings this afternoon:

a briefing on OIA report 6

on Apollo testimony -- the question aoout the intent of 7

the session this afternoon.

S I have seen it sim~ly as an informing of the J

Com.mission, seated together, of the sum~ary results of lJ the investigation by Mr. Nelson and Mr. McTiernan and l l their staffs.

I had not expected, and thif1k, under the 12 circumstances, it w~uld not be particularly useful for 13 us to attem~t to form anythin~ like a collegial Com8ission l L opinion on the matters to be jiscussed het'~ et this time, 13 and with tha circumstances as they stand.

It is a closed meeting.

We have a number of i7 staff orese~t from the counsel's office, fro8 the Inspection 13 and Audit office, from t~e SafeJuards Division, and 19 Co~miss ion offices.

2J CO,\\L',\\ISSI Y~E R KC:Ni'~EJY:

I h:ive one comment at 2 1 the out se t o f th e mee ting -- and th3t is to note my 2~

sur ~ris e, and indeed chagrin, whereas we had understood.

2 3 an i I h3~ bee n led to b elieve, tha t the report will be

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I am able to find that statement -- not quite that statement, but another statement. on page 42.

And then at the end of a paragraph nearly half a page l Q"lg, which 4

says, not quite what I said, but something else, quote:

5 "Finally, we note that neither the NRC nor the Chairman 6

or any other Commissioner has reviewed this report prior 7

to its re 1 ease

11 8

That's not quite the same as the statement 9

which is an accurate reflection of facts -- at least 10 certainly in my case -- and I can only sp~ak for myself II and that is=

That I, as a Commissioner, saw nothing in 12 this report, nor was aware of nothing in this report,

,J 3 other than the con tents of my oi,m statement.

14 My understanding -

clear understanding was 15 that that was to be a prefatory note to this report.

As 16 I say, in some peoples' view, as the report says, people 17 have differing viewi about l~nguage.

And some people 18 put their prefatory notes on page 43 --- and then, not I 9 who 11 y

a cc u r a t e 1 y

20 That's 211 the statement I have to make~

2 I Mr

Ch a i rm an

22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

I might inquire -

There has 23 been -- I have seen no transmittal note or letter.

Is that 24 MR. A8S1oN:

Th,:1t's not correct, sir.

There was 25 a letter of transmittal addressed to the Ccmmission, with a

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25 copy of it going to Henry Myers.

It should be attached to your set of reports.

ot' ~

I'm sorry.

It's the statementSI\\ that went out on Friday -

that went down on Friday, that you didn't see.

There's no transmittal of the basic report, but there was a transmittal note to the NRC that we sent down on Friday that you did not get.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

I see.

4 MR. ABSTON:

There is a transmittal note. in the basic report itself, to the Commission.

COMM! SSIONER BRADFORD:

Do we have copies?

t~e must have copies of the transmittal letter-.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY=

This is it.

MR. ABS1oN:

No, sir.

I'm talking about the letter of transmittal we sent to you on Friday*, with just the interviews.

COMMISSIONER HENDRIE:

The interviews are red, bound, 1 oose-µi ck --

COMMISSIONER BRADFCJRO:

That's right.

I just didn't see the letter that came with them.

Has anybody seen the letter?

(No response.)

MR. ABS 10N:

If you like, I., 11 retrieve a copy.

COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

If yau can do it right here in the room.

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MR. ABSTON:

CHAIRMAN HEhDRIEi Let's see.

1he whole summary report is a memorandum to the Commission.

It has the form COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

That makes my comment even more meaningful, in my view, Mr. Chairman.

The Commission, as. I understand it, did not ask for this report.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

That's true.

COMM! SS I ONER KENNEDY=

At least I can't recal 1 ever being asked whether such a report should be done.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

True.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Thus', I'm not sure why the gratuitous furnishing of the report to me.

It was precisely for that reason that I felt the prefatory note had meaning -

a fact which was made known very clearly in the statement.

But as I s ;::i id, it on 1 y prov es h ow fa 11 i bl e the language rea 11 y is.

CCJMMI SSIONER BRADFORD:

I agree with that characterization of the report's origin.

In fairness, though, I suppose I shculd also indicate that, if I had wanted to stop, or somehow object to the report while it Was in process, I dare say I could have found a way.

I guess --

6 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

I'm not suggesting that.

2 I wasn't suggesting that, at all~

I was suggesting only 3

that the report ought to have been forwarded in a way that 4

would have recognized as precisely its origins\\ and did 5

not appear to be something it was not.

6 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

The question has been raised 7

whether the meeting could usefully be contracted. somewhat.

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COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

In size?

Length?

CHAIRMAN HEr,1DRI E:

Size -- attendance.

If the 10 discretion is to focus upon procedural aspects of the 11 study, discussion of those --

12 13 14 15 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

Do we know what tha format is?

I don't mean --

CHAIRMAN HE,,DRI E:

No, sir; I don't.

COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

We don't know whether 16 everybody here should finally be there?

17 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

There were a number of people 18 who were asked for, by name:

Commissioners Kennedy.

19 Gilinsky, and myself; Mr. Gossick 20 21 COMMI SSIOUER BRADFORD=

Oh, well.

CHAIRMAN HEUDRI E:

Smith*, Burnett Now, I 22 don't know whether --

23 MR. GOSSICK:

Smith, Burnett, and Mattson.

24 Commissioner Bradford was not named in* the letter.

25 CHA I RMAN HE1,DRI E:

You've got a freeby, Peter.

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COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

My absence would raise an awful lot more questions than my particular presence.

( La ugh t er * )

CHAIRMAN HE... DRI E:

If you'd 1 ike to reduce the attendance at the meeting. I think that. since the Commissioners are here, that members of the Commissioners' staffs might be first 2sked to leave; and then, tha counsel's office -- the people who have worked on it.

There are several from e~ch office.

(Pause.)

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8 CHAI R\\fAN HENDRIE:

My intention here was simply 2

to hear a summary statement from Mr. Nelson and Mr. McTiernan 3

of their findings and conclusions with so~e preface about 4

the procedure that they went through.

5 I hand'_t proposed to comment on it myself.

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hadn't proposed thet there be any great discussion or debate.

7 We should then be informed sitting in session and we would 8

go off.

9 The circumstances are such, I may teJl you, that JO I haven't formed my own statements that I will want to make 11 on Thursday morning.

If I'm able, I'll try to draft something 12 tonight, get it tonight.

As soon as you knew that there 1s 13 any sort of a coherent piece of written material which can 14 be circulated to you for information, I'll certainly 15 circulate it.

16 I hope that if you have statements, you'll do the 17 same for me, but it's not in the sense that I'm preparing 18 Commission testimony. I'll just be speaking fer myself.

19 The rest of us will be there and I think should plan to 20 speak for themselves.

21 The matter is one which relates in many ways to 22 us individually, as well as collectively, and I find that 23 in the time, the possibility, nor in the circumstance is 24 there any special 8erit in trying to for8 a debate through 25 the testimony.

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I don't know whether I'm going to be able to co Hee t anything more than handwritten notes before Tnur sday morning.

COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

That's what I was trying to get at before.

Does the committee expect you to testify, or are we just to be there?

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

I'm assuming that the committee, the subcommittee will want to hear from me.

I assume the subcommittee will want to hear from Mr. Gossick and -

COMMISSIONER BRADFORD=

But in question and ans\\ier form or in the form of prepared statements?

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE=

I think they'll want me. at least to step forward and say what I make of a Jl of this.

And as I say, I just feel it's impractical in the circu3stances to form a collegial set of remarks and so en that I could present.

Maybe if the hearing were two months off -- but maybe not even then.

I'm sure they're going to want tc hear from me, so I'm going to try to put d.own some things that I think and conclude, and I'll try to get copies to you as soon as I've got anything that's readable.

Now, with regard to this afternocn"s enterprise,.

then, we would request that we, in fac t, schedule a briefing

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to hear from the general counsel and Mr. McTiernan on how they went about it and summarize their results.

COMM! SSI ONER GI LINSKY:

Fine.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

I stand receptive to 10

5 recommendations for amendment of that plan.

6 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

One sugges ti en:

Format.

7 If it's a long enough summary, there would be, doubtless, 8

summarizing the su~mary.

9 Che area I would be particularly interested in would 10 be if we felt now that the process was over, that there were

11 trouble spots that the Commission should be aware of or on 12 the lookout for, either to bring to the Congress' attention 13 or that we should be aware of ourselves.

14 If it wasn't as complete as you would like for 15 time reasons or otherwise, and if there are questions that 16 should still be asked --

17 MR. MC TIERNAN:

I can open just to get the ba 11 18 rolling, Mr. Chairman.

19 COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Before you do;, could I ask 20 who would it be that would be proposing to answer a question 21 like that at this meeting on Thursday?

22 23 It certainly won't be me.

I had nothing to do with the conduct of this.

That's exaxtly my point.

\\fa had no 24 input whatever to it, no contact ~ith it, and no review of 25 it. And the Congress should understand that bec3use they're

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,I I 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 11 going to be asking once again, asking the wrong people the questions.

That's precisely my point.

That was exactly what I was getting at, Peter.

COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

It's very likely we' 11 get the Gary Hart type question:

Are you satisfied that everything that could be done has been done?

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

How is it that we are to answer that questicn?

COMMISSIONER BRADFORD=

I don't know.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Each for himself. I'll certainly answer it on my behalf and you'll have to say that you can't answer.

~~e've not been party to the investigation and hence, can't answer.

We seem to have a certain difficulty in closing with the issue. That may make it simpler in the sense that I think an outline of how you've gone about this enterprise and a brief run-down of the conclusions with a particular view to the sort of recommendations that Ccm:nissioner 20 Bradford is suggesting would be of interest.

21 Do you want to come up to the table now?

22 23 24 MR.

MC TIERNAN:

I just wanted to make a point to you, gentlemen, as the result of an experience that I h3d in connection with the June 22 meeting that we had cio*.*m h~re

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the action plan ~the Conraf task force report.

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5 24 25 12 At the cJose -- it was a closed meeting -- there was a discussion of what should be done a'::>out Mr. Conrad finishing his report and what we're going to do about a

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safe that was in my office, et cetera, et cetera.

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And I didn't know then and I know tod~y 'A so I t"~ ~;'<J.-rtj don't 7t to depart tuday too much from what I have written you~ entlemen.

Mr. Conra~ acquired a transcript of that proceeding and he has said a number of things to me a bout what I said at that time and he accused me of accusing him of being a security risk, which I did not say.

But that was a revealing experience to me. that my candor and my expression to this Co~mission in closed meetings.~J~ being transcribed _ and passed the FOIA/1,;;fl va cy q cti.

out to people under Now this work product which we are presenting --

COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:

That W3S released under the-FOIA?

So MR. MC TIERNAN: /J I understand)we checked this morning.

MR. ABSTON:

~(Z..

The FOIA Ofrivacy ~ct.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

~*;ho made that decision?

Who made the decision?

MR. ABSTON=

The Off ice of General Counsel made the.decision to re]ease it. There were 3 transcripts

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MR. MC TIERNAN=

Now what I say to you today in paraphraserYtorrn, in summary form, somebody's going to obtain and read that against what we have carefully attempted to draw up in this re!X)rt *

.And I am going to go through another blood bath with Mr. Conra; and Mr. ConraJ has said enough difficult things to me in the last tour or five days that I've had it with going through any more blood baths with Mr.

be cause Conrad.

wrtA reI~..,.'fi' So/\\anything I say to you today, I H@"ld prefor, Q ~N It. t>,,¥\\

of the fact that~ can acquire this information, I would prefer to stic:< to the written record of my re port.

I would be delighted to meet with you individually outside of that transcription and give you my personal opinio~ of anything you gentlemen would want to know, because I have the highest respect for you gentlemen, and probably you c(.lo>>9 w,n

+AA-nJ.P.rt-have, J:l9)Ct to mine and Jerry Nelson's,,.i!t"t'"~~serious I.s

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responsibilit~~in this agency as we do.

btti I don't know how you can do your job, ~

I am not going to get caught in any more traps by Mr. ConraP.

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bt den,~ -t&.l rr Beyond that, if T car:r-help you, I' 111\\read from my recommendations. I'll let Mr. Nelson speak for himself on this point.

CCH.tl,\\ISSIONER KENNEDY=

That, I might note, had some relationship to the matter we were discussing at the

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CHAIW~ru~ HENDRIE:

Jerry, do you want to sketch for us the sort of procedures that you used?

MR. NELSON:

~/ell, first of all, if you will ask questions, I will try to answer them.

I have no prepared statement and I'm-not fully prepared tor this meeting.

I'm trying to find out what the facts are about what Mr. McTiernan just said. It's entirely possible it happened while I was here and I didn't know it.

It's also possible I wasn't here.

COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:

Let e, then, if it's okay, just start with the question I started with.before\\ which is whether, if you had more time, are there other avenues of investigation that you didn't _get a chance to pursue that you would have?

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10 11 I 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 Mr. Nel1";,: Well, Mr. Bradford, I think I should explain that you're looking at a collegial product.

Four authors wrote that.

So there isn"t anything probably that's in there exactly the way any one of us would have wanted to have it be.

If we were all, each man, doing it separately. It might have come out differently.

So if you ask me about areas of further inquiry, they're not necessarily the answers that the other three would give.

Moreover*, one of the other three who did a heavy share of the work is-n0t here.

He had the nerve to want to spend the weekend with his family in Springfield, and thatJs exactly where he is, and he's staying there.

So that I don't know what kind of meaningful answer I can give you.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

That was despite the fact that he was aware of this meeting today?

MR. NELSON=

That's correct.

Ano I'm the fellow that made that decision, sir.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Thank you.

MR. NELSON:

Therefore, I don't know how meaningful, how accurate, how helpful it would be for any one of us to give our views about further areas.

It might be ~ore helpful to the Commission if we

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9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 4'~W\\ 24 25 16 drew up a piece of paper jointly, the way we did the whole project, as to further areas.

Each man has a certain familiarity with a certain part of the case.

I don't think any one of us has the line-by-line farni liari ty with the entire case.

So;ne work more on documents, some on one issue, some on another.

I would think it would be a more useful tool for the Commission to propound that question tc us and let us get together and do a memorandum on such further areas as we might agree are necessary.

COMM! SSI ONER BRADFORD:

That might be very useful~

Keep in mind, though, that the same questic.n is likely to come up in some form or another on Thursday, and I don't know whether all four of us would propcse to be there by then or not.

But -

COW1IISSIONER KENNEDY:

That goes to the question I asked before:

Who is going to answer these questions?

And if they're not going to be there, I guess I'm going t.o look around and see who it is.

MR. MC TIERNAN:

I intend to be there.

I wouldn't MR. NELSON:

We' 11 be there, Mr. Kennedy.

MR. MC TIERNAN:

The thing I'r.i net going to do is start passing judgmen~ on this Commission pt on something that I haven't investigated.

I'm confining my findings to what

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I'd be delighted to talk to you individually about the various reactions we've had as to how things are going with this agency.

But to stand up before that co:nmi ttee and pass judgment on-how this agency is being run without information documented in my report would be foolish.

MR. NELSON:

We feel very strongly that we worked lo~ and hard hours to do the very best we could do under the circumstances to produce a collegial product.

Of course, there's room for improvement.

There always is.

Of course, it could be better.

All we can say is we did the best we could., given our own strengths and weaknesses as human beings.

And for us to attempt to sit here and unravel it man by man, I'm net sure it would serve any useful purpose, Mr. Chairman.

We are, of course, employees of this agency.

If directed to answer questions. we'll answer questions.

question MR. MC TIERNAN:

You must understand that any OASt<Uke&. ~

t.0 wel\\~ may be paraphrased in a fashion that wil 1 be turned against us if somebody's reading the report later, if they get a hold of this transcript. because we're verbalizing something that we agonized for hours in picking pr-o/Jev-wowf s a M~.

the~ language Q.p..-

CHAIRMAN HENuRI E:

The point seems clear enou;;h.

Since all of us can read more comfortably the findings and

470.15.4 gsh 18 conclusions for ourselves, we don't really need to have 2

them read to us here.

I understand the point that you 3

have difficulty in attempting to restate or paraphrase 4

these rather carefully drawn, collegial statements.

5 I've. spent a lot of time in collegial bodies 6

myself.

I recognize the difficulty.

A lot more time in 7

15-member bodies, actually.

8 Now that's a real collegial discussicn.

9 C Laugh te r. )

10 CHAIR~AN HENDRIE=

Unfortunately*. most people.

,l l they're 01 ly interesting in groups. of four and five at a 12 13 time.

MR. NELSON:

We felt a great sens-e of difficulty 14 and unpleasantness in the assignment.

i'le thought it was a 15 matter of critical importance to the people involved, to the 16 agency, and to the committees.

And for that reason, we're 17 of the view that we really want to have it be a collegial 18 product, that this isn't the kind of thing that one does 19 by a vote of 3 to *1.

20 And that"s what you've got. It's a vote of 4 to 21 nothing.

22 CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Well, I must say I admire its 23 sheer volume.

Okay.

If there are questions. we could 24 pursue them.

If there are not, the only residual mattg~

25 I would like to note is that, and since I haven't had a report

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19 on the status in about 4 hours4.62963e-5 days <br />0.00111 hours <br />6.613757e-6 weeks <br />1.522e-6 months <br />, I'd be interested to know.

The report, as I received it, was marked "1reat as Secret Until Further Notice," or some equivalent.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

To be sure that I understand 5.

correctly, that applies to volumes I and 3.

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Yes, sir, that is correct.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

And we're struggling to see what we can do to get it unclassified.

Is there any late status on that~

MR. ABSTON: No, sir.

The only status change since I gave you that last briefing is1~~1 letter is en route.

It'~

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b~*~~ si'c,M! i l3 y he-en hand-carried.

It's ~~~.signed~ the director of the CI A *.

In addition to that, he's sending another person over to take another look to see if they can't let a few more 16 words go.

But the letter's going to stand on its own.

17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 His recommenciation is that those portions ba classified secret.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

The same ones specified that I understood to be specified?

MR. ABSTON:

Yes, sir, the ones that I indicated..

C'OM},iI SSI ONER KENNEDY:

Is this the ones that are marked in the copies that you sent?

MR. ABSTON=

Right, the cnes I gave you on Friday.

That's basically their position, with th e exception they have

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now said we could use the name, instead of deleting that.

That's the only thing they backed off on.

They're coming with their position in writing and it's en rout9 and may be delivered aJready.

But in addition to that position, they're going to take one last look to see if they -

our security people indicate that they classified far more than what we felt should be classified, based on NRC criteria.

CO}vL1HSSIONER BRADFORD:

Was the CIA also invited to be present?

MR. MC TIERNAN:

We've tried to get the CIA and the committee together right from the start. He~

anticipat~ this problem, but now we're dcwn to the 11th hour and 59th minute and they're starting to confront it.

We've seen it right from the start.

S~ftow ~

we talk about this~ffr.iefing at.J:fl;=

hearing if they don't want us to?

MR. NELSON:

In closed session.

MR. MC TIERNAN=

But you must reccgnize. to refresh everybody's recollection, that Chairman Udall said right at the start that he learned from his experience in th9 Mai Lai case that he's going to make it a 11 hang out, lay it a 11 on the tab le

And we have quoted th~t in our report.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

~foll, I seem to have a certain

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COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

No, sir.

I believe it is a report of the Inspector, an auditor. and the general counsel.

The NRC did not request the report. It was never referred to by NRC before._it was made available to the Congress.

Now that's a technicality, but it happens to be true.

An NRC report is a report which either has been approved by the Commission or it hasn't.

i*,e've just been through this on several occasions recently as we've been told that these Nu Reg documents, since they have not been approved by the Commission, have no standing.

They are not NRC reports.

It's precisely the point I've been making.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

That's certainly not a repcrt by the Commission, you're directing to be made by the Commission.

Tne people who did it hardly did it on their O1/2n time over weekends.

It's an agency product and bears the covet of the agency, and apparently, I have a communication en route from the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency that advises me that an arra y of this stuff, in their view, is classified.

Our peopJe seem to feel, as Gene says, that there is much more being given that stamp than might be the case.

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COMi'1ISSIONER KENNEDY:

Has somebody estimated what 4

the actual efforts involved in this report is?

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MR. ABSTON:

Yes, sir.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

Could you give us that?

MR. ABSTON:

For a fee I'll be glad to give you (Laughter.)

(Pause.)

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

Investigation doesn't come I

cheap. l COMi"lISSIONER KENNEDY:

520 man-days?

MR. ABSTON:

Yes, sir.

COMMISSIONER KENNEDY:

That's how many man-years?

MR. ABSTON:

Gee, if I had my calculator COMMISS!ONER BRADFORD:

Not quite two.

MR. ABSTON:

About 280 man-days per man-year.

So we're talking roughly two man-years.

And you have to recognize that we're talking about very key, high level individuals involved, from the executive level down.

CHAIRMAN HENDRIE:

ML21173A171

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