ML21055A548
| ML21055A548 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 01/12/2021 |
| From: | Charles Brown Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards |
| To: | |
| Brown, C, ACRS | |
| References | |
| NRC-1338 | |
| Download: ML21055A548 (70) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards Non-Power Production and Utilization Facilities Docket Number:
(n/a)
Location:
teleconference Date:
Tuesday, January 12, 2021 Work Order No.:
NRC-1338 Pages 1-60 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1
1 2
3 DISCLAIMER 4
5 6
UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSIONS 7
ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 8
9 10 The contents of this transcript of the 11 proceeding of the United States Nuclear Regulatory 12 Commission Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards, 13 as reported herein, is a record of the discussions 14 recorded at the meeting.
15 16 This transcript has not been reviewed, 17 corrected, and edited, and it may contain 18 inaccuracies.
19 20 21 22 23
1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
+ + + + +
3 ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 4
(ACRS) 5
+ + + + +
6 NON-POWER PRODUCTION AND UTILIZATION FACILITIES 7
SUBCOMMITTEE 8
+ + + + +
9 TUESDAY 10 JANUARY 12, 2021 11
+ + + + +
12 The Subcommittee met via Teleconference, 13 at 2:00 p.m. EST, Ronald G. Ballinger, Chairman, 14 presiding.
15 COMMITTEE MEMBERS:
16 RONALD G. BALLINGER, Chairman 17 DENNIS BLEY, Member 18 CHARLES H. BROWN, JR. Member 19 WALTER L. KIRCHNER, Member 20 JOSE MARCH-LEUBA, Chairman 21 DAVID A. PETTI, Member 22 JOY L. REMPE, Member 23 PETER RICCARDELLA, Member 24 MATTHEW W. SUNSERI, Member 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2 ACRS CONSULTANT:
1 STEPHEN SCHULTZ 2
DESIGNATED FEDERAL OFFICIAL:
6 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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3 CONTENTS 1
Opening Remarks and Objectives, Prof. Ronald 2
Ballinger, ACRS..............
4 3
Schedule and Review Approach, Prof. Ballinger..
8 4
Review Approach and Focus Areas, Members
.... 14 5
Public Comments................. 54 6
Closing Remarks, Prof. Ronald Ballinger, ACRS.. 60 7
Adjourn..................... 60 8
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4 P R O C E E D I N G S 1
2:00 p.m.
2 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: The meeting will come 3
to order, please. This is a meeting of the Advisory 4
Committee on Reactor Safeguards SHINE NPUF 5
Subcommittee. I'm Ron Ballinger, chairman of the 6
SHINE NPUF Subcommittee. Members in attendance today 7
are Matt Sunseri, Charles Brown, Dennis Bley, this 8
thing keeps moving, Jose March-Leuba, Joy Rempe, Walt 9
Kirchner, Dave Petti, Pete Riccardella, Steve Schultz, 10 and I think I've got all the people.
11 Chris Brown and Derek Widmayer are the 12 Designated Federal Officials for this meeting. Chris 13 and Derek, okay, the court reporter is on. Don't need 14 to read that.
15 The purpose of today's meeting is for the 16 subcommittee to discuss the review approach for the 17 operating license for SHINE. Members of the NRC staff 18 and SHINE are participating as observers.
19 The ACRS was established by statute and is 20 governed by the Federal Advisory Committee Act, FACA.
21 The NRC implements FACA in accordance with its 22 regulations found in Title 10 of the Code of Federal 23 Regulations Part 7. The committee can only speak 24 through its published letter reports. We hold 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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5 meetings to gather information and perform preparatory 1
work that will support our deliberations at a full 2
committee meeting.
3 The rules for participation in all ACRS 4
meetings were announced in the Federal Register on 5
June 13, 2019. The ACRS section of the U.S. NRC 6
public website provides our charter, bylaws, agendas, 7
letter reports, and transcripts of all full and 8
subcommittee meetings including slides presented 9
there.
10 The meeting agenda for this meeting was 11 posted there. Portions of this meeting may be closed 12 to protect proprietary information pursuant to 5 USC 13 552(b)(c)(4). I don't think that's going to happen 14 here.
15 For the open portion of the meeting we 16 have set five minutes aside for comments from members 17 of the public attending or listening to this meeting.
18 We so far have not heard -- had any request for making 19 a statement from a member of the public.
20 The transcript of the meeting is being 21 kept and will be made available on our website for the 22 open portion of the meeting. We have a bridge line 23 established, and it's operating for the public to 24 listen to the meeting. To minimize disturbance, the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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6 public line will be kept in a listen-in only mode.
1 The public line will be terminated during any closed 2
portion.
3 To avoid disturbance, we request that 4
attendants make sure they are muted, and I'm sure the 5
public line is all set.
6 Note that we have scheduled the first 7
subcommittee for SHINE on March the 17th, all day, and 8
March 18th, morning only.
9 Also, as I think most of the members know, 10 we have collected a large amount of information 11 related to SHINE, more than we can probably read. And 12 we have access to a SharePoint site which contains 13 pretty much everything related to SHINE, but note that 14 that SharePoint site is a snapshot. It's an evolving 15 snapshot so that we anticipate that by the time a 16 particular chapter gets reviewed, the material that's 17 on that website or SharePoint site will be complete.
18 But we need to remember that that's 19 probably not the case now because our first meeting is 20 not until March, so we anticipate that the complete 21 review material for chapters that will be looked at in 22 the March subcommittee will be on the site and 23 complete 30 days before March the 17th.
24 Okay, so that's my introduction. The 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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7 slides are up and --
1 MEMBER BROWN: Question, Ron. You said 2
something about the 17th? What were the times of 3
that?
4 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: All day on the 17th.
5 MEMBER BROWN: And half day on the 16th.
6 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Half day on the 18th.
7 MEMBER BROWN: Oh, it's been shifted from 8
the last schedule we got?
9 MR. BROWN: Yes.
10 MEMBER BROWN: Okay. I just wanted to 11 make sure because I've got to mark this on a separate 12 calendar. Okay.
13 MR. BROWN: Yes, I think we will be 14 sending out a revised rainbow chart soon.
15 MEMBER BROWN: Okay. I'll wait until I 16 get that then. It's not a problem. I just wanted to 17 make sure. Thank you.
18 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Note that the generic 19 path will be for a subcommittee meeting in one month 20 followed by time set aside for the following month's 21 full committee meeting. So that's the normal, if you 22 want to call it that, path that we'll provide. Of 23 course, depends on how the review goes, but we needed 24 to get things scheduled so that we had time slots 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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8 available.
1 Okay, so really the most -- what I've done 2
since the last time is to update and hopefully do a 3
better job of review chapter assignments, and that 4
material was sent out to the members earlier this 5
week. And so if a member looks at that and says well, 6
wait a minute, you haven't got it quite right, please 7
let Chris and I know, and we'll put out a revised 8
schedule, if you will. But the most important -- and 9
the schedule from the staff, which is slide number 3, 10 has not changed. We met with the staff. We met with 11 the staff yesterday. I think yesterday --
12 MEMBER RICCARDELLA: Excuse me. This is 13 Pete. Does everybody have the slides up? I've got a 14 message on my screen says can't display content.
15 There was a problem displaying the content.
16 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: I'm looking at it.
17 It looks okay to me.
18 MEMBER REMPE: I can see them.
19 MEMBER RICCARDELLA: Should I disconnect 20 and reconnect?
21 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Do you have it by 22 email?
23 MEMBER RICCARDELLA: I think I -- did it 24 come through the personal email?
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9 MEMBER BROWN: I don't have it either. So 1
I don't have any slides either. I've got my paper 2
ones, but that's it, so I'm okay.
3 MR. BROWN: I will forward them to you, 4
Pete.
5 MEMBER RICCARDELLA: Okay. Thank you.
6 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: In any case, there's 7
no change from the last meeting, okay? So that 8
shouldn't be a big issue with respect to the staff 9
slides.
10 The most important slide is slide number 11 5 which if we can put that up there, at the last 12 meeting there were a bunch -- there was some questions 13 and concern about the details of the path that we're 14 going to try to take. And so slide 5 is our 15 interpretation of what we think should happen, and 16 it's in accordance with the ACRS rules, if you will.
17 And so this is the slide to look at.
18 So 30 days before the subcommittee 19 meeting, the chapter goes to a member. Then the 20 member is asked to review the chapter by 15 days 21 before the meeting and identify any substantive issues 22 that may remain -- that would prevent the reviewer 23 from saying things are okay, if you will. Those 24 questions would then be forwarded to the staff 15 days 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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10 before the subcommittee meeting, so that during the 1
subcommittee meeting, the presentation by the staff 2
and/or the applicant would be prepared to address the 3
concerns that a member or members may have.
4 And then following that, assuming that 5
things are ironed out, if you will, we'd have a full 6
committee meeting following the subcommittee meeting 7
where we would have a member evaluation or another 8
staff or applicant presentation as needed.
9 So then -- hopefully, that is a path that 10 gets us through individual chapters. But it also 11 allows for iteration, if you will, if somehow for some 12 reason or another an issue was not adequately 13 addressed.
So we've identified subsequent 14 subcommittee and full committee meetings for that 15 eventuality. Hopefully, it won't occur.
16 We'll have three interim letters which is 17 why we have to have full committee meetings following 18 the subcommittee meetings because we can't produce a 19 letter unless we have a full committee.
20 So that's the scheme, and I think that 21 reflects what members wanted to hear or see, so I 22 would ask if there are questions associated with that.
23 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Yes, this is Jose.
24 For many chapters, this might work, but especially for 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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11 Chapter 13, accident analysis, almost every member 1
wants to be involved on it. I can do the review in 15 2
days for sure. I'm not sure the whole committee can 3
do the review in 15 days, the SC minus 30, SC minus 4
15.
5 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Well, I don't know 6
why that wouldn't be the case because if all the 7
members know what the schedule needs to be or would 8
like to be, it doesn't preclude a single member from 9
saying on 15 days before the meeting, not necessarily 10 the lead reviewer, that --
11 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: So you are expecting 12 individual reviews by whoever member wants to review 13 each chapter?
14 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Sure. Yeah, I mean 15 that's --
16 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Not a consensus?
17 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Well, the consensus 18 would occur as part of the subcommittee presentations, 19 I would guess. You know, it's always been the case 20 that, you know, when we have an application to review, 21 not every member reads every chapter, I don't think, 22 at least not in detail. So I don't know. I think 23 this is probably -- will probably work. I mean we're 24
-- I guess I'm assuming that we'll get a member that 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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12 wakes up in the morning on 12 days before the 1
subcommittee meeting and decides to read the chapter 2
and then insists that they meant to say something 15 3
days before, but who knows?
4 MEMBER PETTI: So, Ron, in the case of 5
chapters where there's more than one member, are you 6
going to go with a lead that would collect all the 7
comments?
8 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: I would hope that 9
that would be the case. I would hope -- that would be 10 the most smoothly running thing, especially where 11 there's an issue because, you know, individual members 12 think things a little bit differently, so I would 13 expect that for members that have an avid interest, if 14 you will, but that's the best way to do it. Because 15 it just -- we just end up with lots of confusion if we 16 don't do it that way.
17 MEMBER PETTI: I think it will work for 18 most of the chapters. My biggest concern, which I 19 sent in the email, is that everybody probably needs to 20 look at four.
21 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yeah, no, I mean 22 that's --
23 MEMBER PETTI: The transient -- the 24 accident analysis chapter, you're going to be back 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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13 and forth because three quarters of the stuff you need 1
is there, so --
2 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yeah.
3 MEMBER PETTI: -- it's the heart and so 4
for some things that's going to be the case.
5 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yeah, what I would --
6 one thing that I would propose that we do is that 7
Chris and I will accumulate -- I don't know what --
8 they used to call it some kind of website or 9
something, comments from members that can go and read 10 this document where, something like what you said, we 11 think you should look at Chapter 4 because it's a good 12 thing to do first. We would put those notes up, and 13 so members could go and see it. It would be kind of 14 an evolving document which might be helpful. What do 15 you think?
16 (Simultaneous speaking.)
17 MEMBER REMPE: I guess I'd like to discuss 18 Chapter 4 a bit more, and I don't know whether to do 19 it if we go back to look at the schedule or if we look 20 at the assignments. But I -- if we look at the 21 assignments, we've got a consultant who's supposed to 22 be helping us, and I'm just wondering about timing.
23 And I agree with Dave that we do want to have --
24 encourage everyone to look at Chapter 4 because it 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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14 does go into more depth about how the facility 1
operates or how they envision the facility would 2
operate.
3 So I would, even now, encourage -- I wish 4
you could add all members should participant (audio 5
interference) this one as well as Chapter 13. But I'm 6
wondering about four consultants and what they'll be 7
able to see and how well they'll be able to contribute 8
because your schedule has that subcommittee meeting 9
occurring in March. Are we confident they'll had the 10 time to --
11 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yes, note by the way 12 that consultant is really a place holder. We don't --
13 we'd like to be able to use a consultant if we need 14 to, so that doesn't mean we have one for any chapters.
15 And I'm guessing we may get some word from Chris.
16 Chris was going to check on the status of the 17 consultant.
18 MR. BROWN: Ron, we will not discuss that 19 at this time.
20 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Okay, all right.
21 MR. MOORE: This is Scott. I sent out an 22 email just in advance of this to the members about the 23 consultant. So you can talk about what a consultant 24 may or may not do, but please don't talk about the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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15 status of the consultant.
1 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Okay. All right.
2 Okay. Okay.
3 MEMBER REMPE: Sorry, I missed that email.
4 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Well, I got it 15 5
minutes ago. I'm not at my NRC computer.
6 Also, I mean I would chime in with Dave on 7
Chapter 4. If you go back and look at the 8
construction permit application, there was a bunch of 9
extensive presentations on Chapter 4. But since that 10 time the process has changed so that my guess is if 11 there's a fair difference between the Chapter 4 or the 12 equivalent in the construction permit, and the Chapter 13 4 related to the operating permit, so.
14 Okay? Did I get disconnected?
15 MEMBER PETTI: No, I hear you.
16 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Oh, okay. All right, 17 so that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. You know, 18 I think if this runs the way we hope it will, it will 19 be fairly smooth, and I expect that -- you know, we've 20 been meeting with the staff every other week, and so 21 we're very much connected there. And so everybody 22 knows what their expectations are. But we won't know 23 until March, I guess.
24 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: And just to be sure, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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16 you expect an email to Chris with any questions of a 1
Chapter X, not a letter.
2 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: I don't care what the 3
format is, and I'm not sure that Chris does. But I 4
imagine an email, if you will, would work fine. In 5
other words you say issues that you want discussed?
6 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Yes, because back in 7
-- was it December or November when we talked about 8
this, we were talking about the responsible member 9
writing a letter to file on the chapter and not having 10 a subcommittee meeting.
11 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: No, I think because 12
-- I think because we have to produce an interim 13 letter for each of those areas, that the eventual 14 letter, if you want to call it, or note memo, from the 15 lead member has to come. So I'm guessing that after 16 the -- not guessing, I think that what has to happen 17 is that after the subcommittee meeting at the latest, 18 the lead member would produce a memo, if you will, 19 that is in effect a review.
20 Now if there are no substantive issues, in 21 other words no issues at all that crop up, then at the 22 subcommittee meeting that note could be just presented 23 there or provided there. If there are substantive 24 issues that have to be discussed at the subcommittee 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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17 meeting, then, you know, you can't produce a memo 1
instantly, so that would have to happen a little bit 2
later. That's why the full committee meeting is 3
important following the subcommittee meeting.
4 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Ron, this is Walt. Just 5
so I understand your intentions though, in this chart 6
that's in front of us right now we have three color 7
coded groups.
8 MEMBER BROWN: Which chart --
9 (Simultaneous speaking.)
10 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Current staff schedule.
11 And so is the intent that you would have an interim 12 letter for each of the color groups and then a final 13 final letter?
14 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yes.
15 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Okay. In that case then 16 perhaps we don't need the kind of memos to file that 17 we did with NuScale on the second pass.
18 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: We have to --
19 MEMBER KIRCHNER: You said use NRC email.
20 I would think that the NRC email would be adequate for 21 identifying issues.
22 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Okay, yeah.
23 MEMBER KIRCHNER: But if you intend to 24 write an interim letter that addresses the first group 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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18 being Chapters 1, 4, 5, 6, 15, 12, then I'm just 1
suggesting that we probably don't need additional 2
memos to file because it looks like you're going to 3
cover all the material.
4 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Hopefully. That's --
5 hopefully.
6 MEMBER PETTI: So, Ron, I'm struggling 7
with what schedule relative to our cross cut.
8 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Say again?
9 MEMBER PETTI: Where are the cross cuts in 10 this schedule?
11 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yes, that's a good --
12 I'm glad somebody is actually reading it. We will --
13 as we get into this review, we will identify, I'm 14 sure, substantive issues that required additional 15 discussion in the subcommittee. And I'm hoping that 16 as a result of that process, that early on we will get 17 an idea of where the cross-cutting issues might --
18 focus areas might be. And then we have to come up 19 with some kind of schedule for that. But we don't 20 know what they are. So until we have a good reading 21 on what members think they are, we can't really do 22 much.
23 We've got -- if you look at the schedule, 24 we've got -- it's the yellow column which identifies 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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19 time during which we do the focus areas if needed.
1 The focus areas identified on slide number 8 are 2
really -- I don't know what the right word is.
3 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Placeholders.
4 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Placeholders. You're 5
right. Placeholders. We don't -- you know, based on 6
discussions with the members and the staff, that's an 7
idea.
8 Now I should make Charlie happy, is that 9
10 MEMBER BROWN: I can't see what you're 11 doing right now. I don't even know where you are. I 12 don't have any shared screen up again. Did anybody 13 solve that problem yet? Does everybody else see the 14 shared slide?
15 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Yes.
16 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: I can.
17 MEMBER BROWN: I can see nothing, so I 18 have no idea where -- I mean you've been bouncing 19 around, so I've kind of lost track of what you're 20 talking about.
21 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Okay, well, you don't 22 need this for what I'm about to say. It turns out 23 that in discussion with the staff, the most -- what do 24 you want to call it -- intensive review and back and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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20 forth with RAIs and stuff is occurring related to 1
Digital I&C. And so we have been in contact with 2
Charlie and told him about that, and the SharePoint 3
site that we have access to has a folder in it called 4
Digital I&C, and so the staff is going to -- is on 5
notice that they will keep Charlie up to date as often 6
as possible on the Digital I&C issue.
7 Notice that Digital I&C doesn't appear as 8
a focus area, but it's just an individual area. But 9
it's a different platform than we're used to dealing 10 with, and so that's why --
11 MEMBER BROWN: What do you mean by 12 platform?
13 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Well, now you're 14 exceeding my pay grade.
15 MEMBER BROWN: What -- you mean the 16 instrumentation platform or --
17 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yeah, yeah. And I 18 think, let's see -- I'm hopeful that Steve Lynch is on 19 board here. I don't see him.
20 MR. LYNCH: Yes, I'm here. I just had to 21 unmute myself.
22 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Okay, so, Steve, can 23 you give us a better description than I'm able to?
24 MR. LYNCH: So for the HIPS platform and 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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21 I think SHINE is also on as well, but the HIPS -- or 1
SHINE is using the HIPS platform.
2 MEMBER BROWN: That's what we did for 3
NuScale.
4 MR. LYNCH: Yes, it has been customized, 5
but yes, yes. They are using the HIPS platform from 6
Rock Creek Innovations as the basis for their I&C 7
systems.
8 MEMBER BROWN: Okay, is there going to be 9
some comparison between the HIPS -- I mean the NuScale 10 implementation? You say it's been -- what has it 11 been? Modified?
12 MR. LYNCH: It has been customized for 13 their facility, and one of the things SHINE has done 14 is out of the NuScale review there were those 65 15 application-specific items that came out of the safety 16 evaluation for that. SHINE has, in response to RAIs, 17 addressed those 65 application-specific items to 18 further specify how they have implemented or not as 19 appropriate for their facility. So there are details 20 included in information that SHINE has provided to do 21 that cross walk from what had been looked at in the 22 past and what is specific for their facility.
23 MEMBER BROWN: Well, I just found the 24 September 2020 FSAR version yesterday. And are they 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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22 going to have an architecture diagram that shows how 1
it's being implemented regardless of the application 2
specific things?
3 I mean we agreed with the NuScale approach 4
regardless of the application because the architecture 5
met all of our metrics of the fundamentals, the 6
fundamental design principles. We didn't see what was 7
in the application-specific stuff. So are we going to 8
get an equivalent set of information relative to the 9
architecture, how it's done, and what are the 10 input/outputs, and how it gets sent out to business 11 units as opposed to in place operating type equipment?
12 MR. LYNCH: Sure, so with respect to 13 architecture and diagrams and understanding, those are 14 specific technical areas that our staff is currently 15 engaging with SHINE on. We are working on refining an 16 additional list of request for additional information 17 that do address in part some of the architecture of 18 the system, and we intend to engage with SHINE as 19 appropriate to get further details as needed to make 20 our safety conclusions, and that is one of the topics 21 we will be discussing with SHINE further. So as that 22 information is available, that is something that we 23 can share with members.
24 MEMBER BROWN: Okay, you recognize that 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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23 that's the committee's fundamental approach is looking 1
at it from an architectural standpoint as well as the 2
input/output of the plant communications or whatever 3
you want to call it, control of access, one-way 4
communications, so people can't get in with the 5
internet into these systems that are inside the plant 6
actually doing the processes.
7 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Folks, we're starting 8
to get into a technical discussion.
9 MEMBER BROWN: I'll stop, Ron. I just 10 want to make sure he understands what we're going to 11 be looking for. I'll be trying to review 77 RAIs on 12 application-specific stuff that's going to be very 13 difficult, if not unintelligible.
14 So I mean there's a specific amount of 15 time, and our focus is going to be on what we focused 16 on for NuScale. As long as we know what the critical 17 attributes are that we have to protect against, what 18 are they trying to trip on or turn itself off or 19 access or apply something else. So I'm just trying to 20 let you know that I'm not going to be able to sit 21 around and look at software preparation or stuff like 22 that or line by line code or whatever it is that the 23 people might be thinking. But the architecture is 24 still the fundamental issue for these types of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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24 processes as well.
1 MR. LYNCH: I understand and appreciate 2
that feedback.
3 CHAIRMAN BLEY: Ron?
4 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yes, sir.
5 CHAIRMAN BLEY: I guess really Chris. I 6
have searched my personal email and my NRC email, and 7
I don't find any delivery of the new slide show. So 8
please send it to me as well. Maybe send it to 9
everybody.
10 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: The new what?
11 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: The slides, I didn't 12 get the slides either.
13 CHAIRMAN BLEY: The slides you have on the 14 screen now.
15 MR. BROWN: Well, the -- our guidelines 16 are to put everything in the SharePoint, but I will 17 forward them to you.
18 CHAIRMAN BLEY: Okay, I looked in 19 SharePoint and didn't find it either.
20 MR. BROWN: They're there, but I will 21 forward them.
22 MEMBER BROWN:
- Dennis, go to the 23 SharePoint reference material and then you can find 24 SHINE and then DI&C folder, and under SHINE, you'll 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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25 see the slides.
1 CHAIRMAN BLEY: Charlie, I'm looking for 2
these slides.
3 MEMBER BROWN: Yeah, that's where I found 4
them.
5 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Gosh, I thought we 6
sent them out.
7 MR. BROWN: They're in the --
8 (Simultaneous speaking.)
9 MR. BROWN: Please listen. They're in the 10 January subcommittee folder, but I will send them to 11 you.
12 MEMBER PETTI: Ron, I had a question to 13 get back to your slide 8 and these cross cuts.
14 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yeah.
15 MEMBER PETTI: I assume that at some point 16 the lead member needs to lay out for the staff and the 17 applicant what are the issues, how they'd like to see 18 the information presented so that it makes for the 19 most efficient review that we can have of the cross 20 cut. Is that --
21 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yeah, I would assume, 22 but remember we don't even know that, for example, 23 chemical processing or source -- we don't know what 24 the actual cross-cutting areas or focus areas will be.
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26 Maybe they'll be these. And therefore, we don't even 1
know who the lead person would be because if we come 2
up with a different focus area that's not on this 3
list, then there may be a different lead person.
4 MEMBER PETTI: Yeah, that's fine, it's 5
just when we get to these -- as I recall, when we did 6
it from NuScale, you know, we told them exactly what 7
we were looking for to help expedite it.
8 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yeah.
9 MEMBER PETTI: Because I read the FSAR 10 before Christmas, the version that was available, and 11 the source term stuff is in bits and pieces, and so if 12 that survives, you know, there's a certain way I'd 13 like to see it presented so that it's logical and we 14 can dispense with it in a reasonable amount of time.
15 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yeah, well that's --
16 this is a very good example. Here, we have source 17 term identified, and you as a lead, you may decide 18 that it doesn't need to be a focus area and end of 19 story. But you may decide well, you know, that was a 20 pretty good idea. Let's put that on there and then go 21 from there.
22 MEMBER PETTI: Yeah.
23 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Same goes for the 24 others. I mean these are just, you know, I assume 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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27 educated guesses, but I'm guessing that we will -- if 1
you look at the blue area, you find that final SER to 2
ACRS is July, okay?
3 My hope would be that in the June -- by 4
the June area, roughly, we will have identified, maybe 5
earlier, focus areas as a result of members doing 6
reviews. And that would fit well with arranging 7
discussions of these in the August -- July, August, 8
you know, that area so that we can deal with it before 9
having to do a final letter in October.
10 Hopefully, the scheme of identifying 11 issues in individual chapters and having them 12 discussed in subcommittee meetings would kind of pave 13 the way for that.
14 CHAIRMAN BLEY: This is Dennis. Chris, 15 I'm sorry, they're there. I found them. Up until 16 today, everything I've been looking for I found in the 17 reference material. I didn't realize you'd started 18 posting in the subcommittee folder. Got them.
19 MR. BROWN: Thank you.
20 MEMBER REMPE: So just to make sure, I was 21 looking for the email that Scott sent, but when Walt 22 brought up the question maybe going to Slide 4, Walt 23 brought up the question about if you really need the 24 chapter letter -- or member the letter, report. We do 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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28 want that even if we do an interim full committee 1
letter because one might say well, the full committee 2
letter might start out -- the interim letter might say 3
we looked at Chapters A through X, A through E. There 4
were no problems with C and D, but we are interested 5
in learning more about the other ones. And so do we 6
need this member letter report for sure, or what was 7
the resolution of what Walt brought up because I had 8
the same question?
9 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Somehow, we need to 10 have material to be used for the interim letters. Now 11 it may be -- let's just say for going in, that the 12 chapters in the blue group or whatever it is, the 13 first group, there are no issues that even need to be 14 discussed at the subcommittee meeting. In that case, 15 then the material that we would use for the interim 16 letter would be very minimal, in other words, a note 17 from the reviewer or as part of a discussion that 18 there are no issues. Then the interim letter would 19 become a couple of paragraphs long.
20 On the other
- hand, if there are 21 substantive issues in one of those chapters that 22 require a discussion in the presentation in the 23 subcommittee from the staff or the applicant, then we 24 need a little bit more material to document that so 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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29 that we can produce the interim letter.
1 Now how -- what form that comes in I guess 2
as point of discussion I would say that if there are 3
no issues, then it can be a pretty -- an email. If 4
there are issues, then I would think that the members 5
out of that subcommittee would come something a little 6
bit more than an email. Now what form it takes, that 7
I'm not sure of. And I'm sure I would appreciate some 8
input on what that should be. But we would have to 9
document that because we would put it in an interim 10 letter and that it eventually -- it would find its way 11 into the final -- into the final letter.
12 MEMBER REMPE: So I guess I think we're 13 adding too much formality to this because what would 14 have normally been done in the past would have been 15 that the lead member for each of these chapters would 16 generate a couple of paragraphs sent to you and Chris 17 saying this is what I think we decide on it. We can 18 be a little bit more inclusive and include the other 19 folks that have identified (audio interference) send 20 that to you, but I'm not quite sure we need this 21 member letter to file which gets posted on the website 22 and this stuff (audio interference) understanding what 23 it is you're proposing to do. It seems a little bit 24 too much to have this kind of (audio interference).
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30 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: With respect to 1
posting things on the website, I mean we do have to 2
somehow document what we've done. So one way or the 3
other we have to do that. Now whether that comes, I 4
guess in the interim letter that we produce, that's an 5
official document from the committee, so I would guess 6
that that's the point at which something gets 7
published officially, right?
8 MEMBER REMPE: Yes, so I think definitely 9
you want an interim letter for the chapters. I 10 definitely think we should be providing a paragraph 11 saying these things we want to explore further or --
12 and will include in the focus areas or we're done with 13 this chapter (audio interference) to do.
14 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Whatever the members 15 and others would like to say, sure. Hopefully, as a 16 result of the subcommittee discussion, there are no 17 continuing issues other than maybe confirmatory-type 18 stuff, but who knows.
19 MEMBER REMPE: Yeah, I think that I would 20 modify that a little bit because we will send you 21 something, if I go to page five in advance about these 22 are the things we'd like to be discussed at the 23 subcommittee meeting, and so that's a point, an action 24 item for the leads on each chapter, and then following 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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31 it we send you a paragraph saying our (audio 1
interference) make sure we agree with the other leads 2
or if it's the whole group, and -- say does anybody 3
have any other comments, these are my issues. And we 4
can go around at the end of each discussion and ask 5
members did they (audio interference) review this 6
thoroughly, but I don't feel that (audio interference) 7 like we did for NuScale (audio interference).
8 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yeah, no. What 9
you're saying is I'm sure fine, but the thing that 10 will throw this into a cocked hat is if we get input 11 from a member at a very late date that is out of 12 sequence. We'll just have to deal with that if that 13 occurs.
14 MEMBER REMPE: And it definitely could 15 occur. So when I looked at Chapter 4, where it (audio 16 interference) provides input to the criticality and a 17 bunch of other things, it could happen. And so you 18 may have -- if I were to (audio interference) I'd have 19 to say if you see anything that's X, Y, and Z, but A 20 through K we're going to be talking about a division, 21 that we talked about, of chapters, whether it's 22 Chapter 13 or --
23 (Simultaneous speaking.)
24 MEMBER REMPE: -- it'll be with the folks 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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32 here.
And that might be something (audio 1
interference).
2 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: That's important 3
because, by the time we write the final letter, 4
everything should -- well, obviously, will have to be 5
ironed out. So the interim letters are just that.
6 They're interim and so in the case of Chapter 4, it 7
may be like you say that there's -- we need to look at 8
Chapter X, Y, and Z that has its tentacles in there, 9
either that or the focus area and so, by the time we 10 get through reviewing most of the chapters -- and I 11 keep saying the middle group -- we will have a good 12 idea of the focus areas. And that hopefully that will 13 be all feed into the final letter which will get --
14 which at that point all of the issues have to be --
15 have to be resolved. Either that or we have to say we 16 don't.
17 MEMBER PETTI: So it's fair to say then, 18 Ron, that the interim letters have to address all of 19 the chapters that were reviewed. Some may be a simple 20 paragraph, right? We reviewed it. There was no 21 issue. That's the input from the member to you.
22 Others could be more involved.
23 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Sure, and the more 24 involved ones would be the focus of the subcommittee 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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33 presentation.
1 MEMBER PETTI: Right, right.
2 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Okay. Unless there 3
are other questions, I think we've pretty much 4
exhausted the questions. I think unless there are 5
other questions, we probably need to now open the 6
public line.
7 MEMBER BROWN: Nope. I've got a question.
8 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Okay.
9 MEMBER BROWN: All right, I couldn't find 10 my mic. I finally got the slide things going somehow.
11 I don't know why.
12 I've looked at the rainbow chart and I've 13 looked at the current staff schedule and the 14 subcommittee dates, some various chapters don't line 15 up with what's in the rainbow schedule. It's not 16 clear to me that we've got it clear. For instance, 17 for Chapter 7 it says there's going to be a 18 subcommittee meeting in July. And the SE will be 19 ready by April 21st. Let me see. Is that Chapter 7?
20 Yes. May 21st.
21 So are there going to be meetings 22 scheduled? The quick look I took at the SR Chapter 7 23 almost indicated that we were probably going to need 24 a subcommittee meeting on that chapter alone. Now I 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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34 might change my mind once I look at it in more detail.
1 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Well, first, Chris 2
has been working through the schedule, so I don't 3
think we need to worry about what may or may not be 4
out of sequence right now because we'll fix that. And 5
the second, as we go along, we will --
6 MEMBER BROWN: Well, March 21st isn't even 7
scheduled, for instance.
8 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: March 21st?
9 MEMBER BROWN: Yes, the current staff 10 schedule, it's dated 12/1/20 that you sent out in your 11 seven or eight slides, so it's March 21st as being a 12 schedule for human factors, Chapter 7.
13 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Boy, I must be 14 looking at the wrong --
15 MEMBER BROWN: For the SE, you'll see May 16 21st was the subcommittee meeting.
17 MR. BROWN: I'm not sure what you're 18 looking at.
19 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: I'm not sure either.
20 MEMBER BROWN: Slide 3.
21 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Charlie, this is Walt.
22 It's May of 2021. It's not the actual dates that 23 they're showing. (Audio interference) as well, a 24 while back, but they're just saying it's somewhere --
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35 subcommittee date somewhere in May '21. What they 1
mean is May 2021.
2 MEMBER BROWN: Well, I didn't get that.
3 All right.
4 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: We won't make that 5
kind of mistake, I hope.
6 MEMBER BROWN: All right. If they 7
customize the HIPS system, I remember the HIPS system 8
and I remember the architecture and I have diagrams 9
for that, so it's easy for me to compare and see they 10 haven't deviated from the fundamentals. I presume 11 they're sticking with the microprocessor -- excuse me, 12 the field programmable gate arrays, that they haven't 13 reconfigured that into some microprocessors as opposed 14 to FPGAs.
15 That's why I'm looking for an architecture 16 and what are they using and how is it customized, so 17 we can see that we haven't lost anything. Somehow 18 that's got to come through and if I can get it out of 19 reading, that's fine, but I'm just making the point we 20 may need an independent meeting on that.
21 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Okay, well, if that 22 happens, then we'll figure out a way to do it, but 23 believe me, since we've identified digital I&C as a 24 significant area and the staff knows this, they're not 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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36 going to be waiting until the last minute to get you 1
engaged.
2 MEMBER BROWN: I hope not. I do have a 3
few other things to review also, so. All right, I 4
just wanted to make sure. Let me see if there was 5
something else here in the files. Too many files 6
open.
7 There was a SHINE open items table that 8
you sent out, somebody sent out. It was about six 9
pages. I presume those are the staff open items.
10 They're going to be filling in the summary of 11 resolution.
12 MR. BROWN: Absolutely.
13 MEMBER BROWN: That's correct. Okay. But 14 they're all blank, the resolutions are all blank right 15 now, and there's about six pages of them.
16 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: That's because what 17 you're seeing is a snapshot.
18 MEMBER BROWN: That's fine. I just wanted 19 to make sure I knew where we were going and at what 20 level of information I had. There was no date on the 21 table, so I couldn't tell whether that was current or 22 whether that was just their initial stabs at it.
23 Okay, thank you.
24 MR. BROWN: Jose, did we answer your 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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37 question? You asked a question, I'm not sure I was 1
clear on the answer also about the 15 days and what's 2
submitted to me. Can you restate your question?
3 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: My question is what 4
do you expect me to provide you 15 days before the 5
subcommittee meeting?
6 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Okay, so 30 days 7
before the subcommittee, the clock starts and the SE 8
comes to you and you start reviewing it. Fifteen days 9
after that, which would be 15 days before the 10 subcommittee meeting, by that time you will have been 11 able to identify whether or not there are no issues or 12 whether or not there are substantive issues that you 13 need to see discussed so that you can resolve things 14 in your review, and that has to go to Chris 15 days 15 before so Chris can be the gatekeeper and transmit 16 that to the staff.
17 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: So it seems to be a 18 two-step. I will send Chris an email with a number of 19 bullets that says I have concerns about Sections 13.2, 20 13.7, 13.8.
21 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yes.
22 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: And these are the 23 specific questions I would like addressed during the 24 presentation.
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38 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Bingo.
1 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA:
After the 2
presentation, I will have to write you a report that 3
you can use in the interim letter?
4 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER:
Some kind of 5
documentation I would appreciate. I'll be at all 6
these meetings anyway. I'll be taking notes. But 7
hopefully there will be enough detail supplied by you, 8
such that the staff can present enough detail to 9
satisfy you on the issue. If there still is an 10 outstanding issue, then we start iterating and then 11 the schedule gets a little complicated because we 12 can't -- we just basically shift another -- shift that 13 particular chapter review out to another month.
14 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Let me be more 15 specific. In NuScale, every responsible member wrote 16 a memo to file for each and every one of the chapters.
17 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yes.
18 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: You don't want us to 19 do that?
20 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: That's perfectly 21 acceptable.
22 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: No, I mean -- sure.
23 But what is it that we're supposed to do?
24 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Well, my personal 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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39 preference would be a memo to file for every chapter 1
which says either no issues or after review with the 2
subcommittee, whatever words you want to use, there 3
are no issues. Or we need to be --
4 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: I think it makes 5
sense to write a memo to file for each and every one 6
of the chapters.
7 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yes.
8 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: That's what we did 9
for NuScale and it worked very well.
10 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: That's fine.
11 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: It's takes a little 12 work.
13 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: People sometimes want 14 to use an email and stuff like that. A memo to file 15 which amounts to an email that we put in the file is 16 probably fine, too.
17 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Okay. The concern I 18 have -- go ahead.
19 MEMBER REMPE: Well, I think it's a little 20 different this time.
There's this initial 21 interaction, but then after the subcommittee meeting, 22 yeah, you can provide a memo to file, but Ron is going 23 to take whatever you put and put it in his interim 24 letter and I don't see any reason to have the memo to 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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40 file also, some formality with this. Why not just 1
(audio interference).
2 MR. BROWN: I agree with Member Rempe.
3 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yeah, I mean, and as 4
long as there's something with words on it, that I can 5
print or say or convert to a PDF file or read, we'll 6
be fine.
7 MEMBER REMPE:
So I
see (audio 8
interference) 9 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Now I'm getting only 10 every other word. I'm sorry.
11 MEMBER REMPE: You're only hearing every 12 other word.
13 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yeah, it's pretty 14 garbled.
15 MEMBER REMPE: Could you hear what I was 16 (audio interference) 17 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: You are very garbled, 18 Joy. You're breaking up.
19 MEMBER REMPE: All right, okay --
20 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Let me step in and see 21 if I can address Joy's concern.
22 Joy, let me take a try at it. This is 23 Walt. I think, if we remember the process, Jose is 24 correct, we had a memo to file for each chapter. But 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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41 remember, we actually sat together as a committee, had 1
a presentation by the member, and then we voted to 2
approve it before it was put in the Scott-grams to be 3
transmitted over to the staff. So that was an 4
additional level of formality because we intentionally 5
said in the NuScale review that the bulk of our 6
attention and effort was going to be on the cross-7 cuts, not on the chapters. But we did introduce the 8
formality of a presentation by the member, his memo on 9
the chapter, and a vote by the committee to approve 10 the memo.
11 I don't know that we need that this time 12 because we're going to go through all the chapters.
13 We're going to have an interim letter or three interim 14 letters and then a final letter. So it's a little bit 15 different than NuScale. So I think Joy's concern and 16 I think my concern was are we putting too much -- are 17 we creating something for ourselves that is more than 18 we need to do this review?
19 Do you see what I'm saying, Ron?
20 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yeah, I mean that --
21 point well taken. I think we just don't know. I 22 think the first set of meetings that we have of 23 whenever it is, the subcommittee date in March, we'll 24 have a really good idea of whether this works well or 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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42 whether we need to make modifications as a result of 1
those meetings.
2 I mean, again, you know, we can adjust on 3
the fly and we'll just have to see how it goes. I 4
mean, if all of a sudden, every one of those chapters 5
gets reviewed and there are no issues, then we don't 6
have to do anything. The interim letter is very 7
simple. But let's say Chapter 6, engineered safety 8
features becomes a monstrous problem and that results 9
in extensive presentations and going back and forth.
10 That's a different scenario which would then require 11 a more extensive set of documentation. But we don't 12 know that that's going to happen.
13 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Well, I've been trying 14 to play that out. Again, addressing Jose's comments, 15 you've got me, for example, leading on Chapter 6.
16 Let's pick on Chapter 6. So that's going to come 17 before we get the actual detailed safety review of 18 Chapter 13.
19 Jose may find problems in the course of 20 reviewing the accident analyses and that may force us 21 to loop back to the ESF and say that -- let me make up 22 a rhetorical example -- that improvements in the ESF 23 features are required to address our concern with this 24 particular class of accident analyses.
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43 Do you see what I'm saying, Ron?
1 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yeah, no, that's 2
fine.
3 MEMBER KIRCHNER: So I may come out of it 4
initially saying, oh, the engineered safety features 5
look adequate for the task.
6 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yeah.
7 MEMBER KIRCHNER: But in the next triage, 8
Jose will do a detailed accident analysis review and 9
say, whoops, we have perhaps an issue here and that 10 suggests that a modification to the engineering safety 11 features is required.
12 So there may be some iteration coming.
13 Whether that then results in us creating a cross-cut 14 focus area, I don't know. It may be, you know, after 15 two passes at the same topic where we look at the 16 actual physical systems as described and then we look 17 at the accident analyses subsequently, that we can in 18 the interim letter for -- what is it called --
19 accident analyses, we could say there's an issue in 20 Chapter 6.
21 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Sure, yeah.
22 MEMBER KIRCHNER: And that may not require 23 us creating a cross-cut. It just shows that as we get 24 further and further into this and we see the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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44 interaction of the systems and such, that further 1
review is required.
2 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yes, I mean if that's 3
the case, then we'll just have to make adjustments.
4 MEMBER REMPE: I think there's also --
5 hopefully, you can hear this time, the fact that the 6
interim letter is taking what would be in that memo 7
and then it's going to be starting with the same text, 8
members of course will change things, so that's why I 9
don't see a need to have a memo to file when you're 10 going to put it somewhere else in the interim letter.
11 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Well --
12 MEMBER REMPE: And that's why I'm kind of 13 pushing back and saying it's just input for an interim 14 letter. I just don't see a need for having any formal 15 input.
16 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Well, please remember 17 that, for example, you will be reviewing something.
18 I don't know where it is and you will have your 19 thoughts and things, but I'm the one that's going to 20 have to write the interim letter.
21 And so my memory -- maybe it will be 22 better after the COVID-19 shots, will not be that 23 great. And so I'm hopeful that I'll get something 24 from members that I can use to write the interim 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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45 letter.
1 MEMBER REMPE: Right. And I hope -- can 2
you hear me? I hope. I'm hoping that the texts that 3
we provide you and it won't just be me as lead. I'll 4
have input from others. It will be something that 5
will give a good starting point for your letter. I 6
just don't see a reason to have two documents the same 7
starting text, which is (audio interference).
8 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Let's just see how it 9
goes. How is that?
10 MEMBER REMPE: Okay, but that's what I'm 11 planning to do. Chapter 4 is coming up in this first 12 round of these things. And Walt has got Chapter 6.
13 So you've got two of us that seem to have the same 14 opinion.
15 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Okay. That's fine.
16 MEMBER REMPE: And if you don't like that, 17 tell us now so we'll make changes. But that's where 18 I'm at.
19 MEMBER PETTI: And Walt's example is what 20 happened in NuScale, right? Remember we raised an 21 issue and it caused a change in the design, so it 22 affected other chapters. I think it would behoove 23 ourselves to create a cross-cut for anything like that 24 where we find these iterative loops just so we don't 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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46 forget them.
1 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: These cross-cutting 2
things, they might evolve instantly, you know, and 3
that would be actually great if we did that earlier.
4 But we don't know until we start.
5 MEMBER PETTI: But what I'm hearing is 6
that the lead will provide you some guts for the 7
letter.
8 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Right.
9 MEMBER PETTI: And it should be a 10 consensus of others that have read the chapter that 11 are on your little table.
12 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yes.
13 MEMBER PETTI: When that is the case. If 14 it's just a single person, that's different. And that 15 in lieu of a formal letter that those guts are given 16 to you for the interim letter.
17 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Right. And part of 18 that might be, hey, we think that we need a cross-19 cutting area that covers the following.
20 MEMBER PETTI: Right.
21 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: That could be part of 22 it. In fact, I hope it would be part of it. I'm 23 beginning to think that there are an infinite number 24 of permutations.
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47 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Unfortunately, there 1
is one more. Can you give us some thoughts on the 2
technical reports? Because apparently, there are 3
going to be a few technical reports to which we are 4
not going to be privy to and as we ask specific 5
questions. Could you explain that process?
6 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yeah, well, first 7
off, I don't know how many technical reports there are 8
or are there going to be. Remember that we had a 9
discussion related to, and I hate to bring this up, 10 related to the so-called reading room issue. And the 11 scheme that we eventually settled on was what's on 12 Slide 5, so that by the time a member gets to review 13 a chapter, any technical reports that might be 14 relevant would be identified.
15 And the substantive issue thing, in other 16 words, if a reviewer discovers a bunch of issues which 17 would require a presentation by the staff or the 18 applicant, in that presentation would satisfy the 19 member or members such that we don't need to address 20 the issue of going deeper into the system. In other 21 words, we don't need a reading room because the 22 member, we don't need to address the issue of the 23 reading room which we probably should stay away from 24 that discussion right now, because the member has 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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48 previously identified the substantive issue.
1 And the staff and the applicant come to 2
the subcommittee meeting prepared to have a detailed 3
discussion on the topic. So hopefully that diffuses 4
any other requirements that we might say we need to 5
have implemented. So that's the reason why -- that's 6
why this Slide 5 is constructed the way it is.
7 Yes, the 15-day members supply -- that 15-8 day thing is not what we did with NuScale. But it's 9
designed to short-circuit problems.
10 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Okay, when I imagine 11 when the SER comes out, there will be more 12 information.
Typically, FSARs are short on 13 information. They are very blunt and blatant with 14 conclusions, how everything is great, but they don't 15 support very well. The SER, because the staff has 16 gone through all these reviews and has reviewed the 17 technical report, tends to contain more information.
18 So hopefully, that will be the case.
19 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yeah, we hope so. I 20 mean everybody is aware of the potential issue and so 21 as long as we're all aware of it, we can nip it in the 22 bud ahead of time.
23 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Typically, the FSARs 24 just say how great we are; they don't tell you how you 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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49 got there and they don't provide much support and 1
documentation. I can't wait to see the SER.
2 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Oh, but then, you 3
know, a member can say I need to have this discussed 4
in a subcommittee meeting.
5 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Mm-hmm. Okay.
6 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Okay, with fear and 7
trepidation, should we get the public line open?
8 CHAIRMAN BLEY: Well, just before you do 9
it --
10 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Okay.
11 CHAIRMAN BLEY: We have the meeting coming 12 up next month. Thirty days before that is next week.
13 We're still on track to get all of the SEs next week 14 for that?
15 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER:
That's our 16 understanding.
17 Who's that?
18 MR. LYNCH: There is no meeting next 19 month.
20 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: The meeting is in 21 March.
22 MR. LYNCH: March, yes.
23 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: So it's February that 24 we get the stuff.
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50 MEMBER PETTI: So the rainbow chart is out 1
of date.
2 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: I'm looking at the 3
rainbow chart.
4 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: It is correct. You 5
are looking at the wrong column. ACR is due February.
6 The committee is due in March.
7 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yes, March the 17th 8
we have -- well, yeah. We have subcommittee meetings.
9 MEMBER PETTI:
We're showing a
10 subcommittee in March.
11 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yes, March 17th and 12 18th.
13 MEMBER KIRCHNER: The rainbow chart is 14 12/17 and it shows March 16th and the 17th.
15 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: That's been changed.
16 It's the 17th and 18th.
17 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Has that been sent out?
18 MR. BROWN: We'll be sending it out.
19 There will be some changes in that week and we'll be 20 sending out a new chart.
21 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Thanks, Chris.
22 MR. BROWN: I think it was due to NuScale 23 was the main reason for the change.
24 MEMBER BROWN: NuScale?
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51 MR. BROWN: Never mind.
1 (Laughter.)
2 MEMBER BROWN: Well, there's no chapter 3
shown for that either, even in the present state.
4 MR. SNODDERLY: This is Mike Snodderly.
5 In March, we're going to be reviewing the control room 6
staffing topical report and we wanted to have all day 7
and so we thought the best was March 16th. So March 8
16th, we'll review the NuScale control room staffing 9
topical report.
10 MEMBER BROWN: Okay, are we going to find 11 out what chapters are expected on the 17th and 18th 12 for SHINE?
13 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yeah, 1, 4, 5, 6 and 14 15.
15 MEMBER BROWN: It's not showing.
16 MEMBER PETTI: In some of them the actual 17 chapters are in the rainbow chart, but for March, it's 18 not. So Chris, please make sure to put the chapter 19 numbers.
20 MR. BROWN: Absolutely.
21 MEMBER PETTI: That will help.
22 MEMBER REMPE: And the SEs that we'll 23 receive in February 2021 will be clean. There will 24 not be any open items or waiting for inputs or 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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52 anything like that. All of the responses to the RAIs 1
will be provided.
2 MEMBER BROWN: That's not what the 3
schedule shows.
4 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: No, it says every 5
chapter we get will be no open items.
6 MEMBER REMPE:
And all (audio 7
interference) for that chapter will have responses 8
that we'll have access to. Correct?
9 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: I would assume so if 10 there's no open items.
11 MR. BROWN: Steve, would you also like to 12 comment on that?
13 MR. LYNCH: Sorry, had to unmute myself.
14 Yes. That is what we are working toward, is providing 15 chapters that are clean, without open items. For some 16 areas where there are still RAIs we are working 17 through and especially for some of the later meetings, 18 we can -- there could be some, but right now that's 19 what we're working toward is getting clean SEs without 20 open items.
21 MEMBER REMPE: If that were to happen in 22 Chapter 4, will you notify and we'll jointly make a 23 decision on -- with Ron obviously and whoever else is 24 to be involved on whether to go ahead and have the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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53 meeting with some parts already.
1 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: I hope you -- man, 2
we'll put a gun to somebody's head if that happens.
3 MEMBER REMPE: Well, it could be my head.
4 (Laughter.)
5 MEMBER BROWN: You're going to end up with 6
a lot of headless bodies, Ron.
7 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: I'm an optimist.
8 MR. LYNCH: I acknowledge the importance 9
of making sure that we coordinate so that members 10 understand exactly what they're doing and if there is 11 information that is pending, what is that information, 12 what is its significance and what makes sense for the 13 timing of that. I understand your point.
14 MEMBER SUNSERI: Hey, this is Matt. Let's 15 avoid making comments like that. It could be 16 considered threatening to others and that's not 17 necessary. Thanks.
18 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Okay. Thank you.
19 MEMBER BROWN: I guess can I ask a general 20 question? Walt, you did the NuScale thing, didn't 21 you? Are you there?
22 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Yes, sir, I'm here. I 23 had to find my unmute.
24 MEMBER BROWN: Okay, my question is we're 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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54 talking about these member memos and I'm -- somewhere 1
in my brain just erupted and I can't remember a memo.
2 Does somebody have a compendium of these memos that we 3
wrote on individual chapters?
4 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Yes. So again, the 5
difference here is subtle. We went through the Phase 6
3 of the NuScale review chapter by chapter. The 7
outcome of that led us to write a memo to the EDO 8
saying we've identified these five cross cut areas and 9
we propose for our Phase 5 final review of NuScale to 10 base it on the cross-cuts. But we also committed to 11 do an in-depth chapter by chapter review. We captured 12 that. So they authenticated by writing a rather 13 formal memo to file that was presented to the 14 committee and the committee voted to quote-unquote 15 approve it and then as we went through that process 16 the batches of chapter memos were pulled together and 17 via a Scott-gram were sent over to NRR.
18 I don't think we need to quite do that 19 because as Joy points out, we'll be doing -- and Ron 20 does -- interim letters as we proceed through the 21 three groups. And that would be my recommendation.
22 Now how we give Ron the draft input for 23 the interim letters, I would recommend NRC email and 24 as many paragraphs as are needed to address the topic.
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55 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: That's fine with me.
1 MEMBER BROWN: Okay, yeah, I don't have 2
any problems just I was trying to recover back to the 3
-- I remember the focus letter and I found the draft 4
of your final report letter and I've been trying to 5
find the individual member letters that we did on the 6
phase --
7 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Well, you didn't do them 8
-- Mike Snodderly can get you efficiently to them, but 9
if you remember, our final letter report on NuScale 10 had appendices. The appendices listed all of our 11 subcommittee and full committee meetings, all of our 12 full letter reports. And then the last appendix had 13 a list of all the Scott-grams, as we call, them which 14 were I think there were three of them all together and 15 those were a compendium of each of your contributions 16 in terms of a chapter memo.
17 MEMBER BROWN: Okay. I'm trying to find 18 that. I'm not sure I ever found it in the file, the 19 final letter. That's what I'm looking for.
20 MR. SNODDERLY: So Charlie, if you go to 21 the final letter that's on the website, dated July 22 28th, just for my own self I just went and brought 23 them up and when you go and you put that ADAMS number 24 in it, it will take you to a folder and it has all of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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56 the -- it has each chapter memo and all of the 1
forwarded Scott-grams.
2 MEMBER BROWN: Okay, I found the chapter 3
letters initially, but not the memos. You say 7/28?
4 MR. SNODDERLY: Yes, sir.
5 MEMBER BROWN: '20 or '19?
6 MR. SNODDERLY: 2020. It's the final 7
NuScale letter appendix, the third appendix. If you 8
go into any one of those chapter memos, it will take 9
you to the folder with everything in it. And I can 10 help you with that after the --
11 MEMBER BROWN: You'll take it out of this.
12 We'll do it offline.
13 MR. SNODDERLY: Yes, sir.
14 MEMBER BROWN: Send me a write-up and tell 15 me where to go look and I'll go find it.
16 MR. SNODDERLY: Yes, sir.
17 MEMBER BROWN: Thank you very much, Mike.
18 MR. SNODDERLY: You're welcome.
19 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Okay, so once again 20 are there any further comments or discussion? Thank 21 you very much.
22 Thomas, can we get the public line open, 23 please?
24 MR. DASHIELL: Public bridge line is open 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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57 for comments.
1 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Thank you. Are there 2
any members of the public that would like to make a 3
comment? Please state your name and make your 4
comment.
5 I haven't heard anybody.
6 MS. WALKER: Can you hear me?
7 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: I can hear you, yes.
8 MS. WALKER: Good afternoon to you all.
9 I'm trying to figure out what meeting I've ended up 10 at. I'm just a member of the public. Are you the 11 Advisory Committee for Reactor Safety?
12 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yes, ma'am.
13 MS. WALKER: So you are the advisory board 14 to the Commission.
15 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yes, ma'am.
16 MS. WALKER: Regarding safety review of 17 applications?
18 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Yes.
19 MS. WALKER: Because I happened upon the 20 meeting where -- because I had never heard of you all.
21 I've been diving into these NRC issues. So I heard a 22 report to the Commissioners a couple of weeks ago and 23 I heard the review of these final letter reports.
24 So my question is, does this committee 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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58 actually approve a design certificate and allow others 1
outline issues like the steam generator integrity, 2
emergency core coolant systems, valve performance, 3
combustible gas monitoring, recovery strategies to 4
prevent reactivity insertion accidents associated with 5
boron dilution events?
6 I'm wondering, because it says this would 7
be potentially risk-significant items to be reviewed 8
at the COL stage and updating the PRA. So I'm 9
wondering what role you see as advising the 10 Commissioners who are relying on technical expertise 11 for this technology. I'm wondering if I have my facts 12
- straight, did you actually approve a
design 13 certificate or did I get something wrong here.
14 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Ma'am, can you state 15 your name, please?
16 MS. WALKER: I'm Kayleen Walker.
17 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Okay. This is a 18 meeting on a very different topic and I will defer to 19 our chairman and I think he can make a comment because 20 I'm not exactly sure where to go with this.
21 MR. BROWN: Actually, I can take this, 22 Ron. I'm Christopher Brown, the Designated Federal 23 Official for this meeting.
24 I would be happy to address your questions 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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59 and I can give you my email and also direct you to our 1
Public Affairs Office.
But my email is 2
christopher.brown@nrc.gov and --
3 MS. WALKER: I emailed you earlier for the 4
slides for the meeting, but you sent me a link that I 5
wasn't able to access. And I don't mean to be (audio 6
interference) but I was alarmed at that. And then 7
when I see in the press that the design has been 8
approved when it has significant risk items that are 9
completely unresolved, I'm wondering because I'm 10 noticing that some of the names of this meeting are 11 similar to this -- I mean, you're the committee.
12 You're the board.
13 I'm just a -- I'll follow up with you, Mr.
14 Brown and I'd be happy get my facts straight because 15 I don't mean to be -- I'm concerned about this 16 technology. I'm concerned about the nuclear waste 17 that these facilities will create if they're made, and 18 all sorts of things, the financial aspects and 19 everything else. And the casualness of this 20 discussion was like you guys were planning a vacation 21 or something. But anyway, take care, you all. I'll 22 be in touch with you, Mr. Brown. Thank you.
23 MR. BROWN: Thank you. I can assure you 24 that we will address your concern and I look forward 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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60 to your email. And I'm sorry about it being a link.
1 I thought I actually had attached the slides, but I 2
will follow up with you immediately. Thank you.
3 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Thank you. Are there 4
any other members of the public that would like to 5
make a comment? Hearing none, can we close the line 6
then?
7 MR. DASHIELL: The public bridge line is 8
now closed.
9 CHAIRMAN BALLINGER: Okay. I guess we 10 don't need a closed session, so are there any final 11 comments by members? Hearing none then, we are 12 adjourned. Thank you.
13 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 14 off the record at 3:19 p.m.)
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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SHINE Review Proposal Ronald Ballinger As of 1/8/20
2 Goals
- Update on Status of Staff Review
- Review Format Update
- Chapter Reviewers Update
- Potential Focus Areas?-Update
3 Current Staff Schedule (12/1/20)
Proposed Review Paths 4
Member Chapter Review SC Meeting Member Letter Report-FC Issues Resolved?
No Yes FC Meeting Interim FC Letter Focused Area Review Team Review Issues?
No Team Report-FC Yes SC Meeting No Issues?
Team Report Yes FC Meeting FC Report Final Letter Member Review
Generic Chapter Review Timeline SC-30 Days: Chapter to Member SC-15 Days: Member Initial Review Results
- No Substantive Issues
- Substantive Issues Remain
- Issues Relayed to Staff SC
- Presentations-As Needed FC Following SC
- Member Evaluation
- Staff (Applicant) Presentation as Needed 2nd SC (Following FC Meeting if Necessary) 2nd FC (Following SC Meeting if Necessary)
- Member Evaluation
- Staff (Applicant) Presentation as Needed 5
6
Proposed SHINE Review Schedule/Assignments (Dated 1/07/2021)
(Continued) 7
Review Chapters/Areas-Updated (01/06/21 8
NOTE: Actual areas of focus, if any, to be decided based on results of member reviews and/or SC meeting results