ML20339A634
| ML20339A634 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 10/22/2020 |
| From: | Charles Brown Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards |
| To: | |
| Brown, C, ACRS | |
| References | |
| Download: ML20339A634 (64) | |
Text
Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
Title:
Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards NPUFs and SHINE Planning Subcommittee Docket Number:
(n/a)
Location:
teleconference Date:
Thursday, October 22, 2020 Work Order No.:
NRC-1173 Pages 1-53 NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC.
Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 1
1 2
3 DISCLAIMER 4
5 6
UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSIONS 7
ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 8
9 10 The contents of this transcript of the 11 proceeding of the United States Nuclear Regulatory 12 Commission Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards, 13 as reported herein, is a record of the discussions 14 recorded at the meeting.
15 16 This transcript has not been reviewed, 17 corrected, and edited, and it may contain 18 inaccuracies.
19 20 21 22 23
1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 1
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
+ + + + +
3 ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON REACTOR SAFEGUARDS 4
(ACRS) 5
+ + + + +
6 NPUFs SHINE REVIEW AND PLANNING SUBCOMMITTEE 7
+ + + + +
8 THURSDAY 9
OCTOBER 22, 2020 10
+ + + + +
11 The Subcommittee met via Video 12 Teleconference, at 2:00 p.m. EDT, Ron Ballinger, 13 Chairman, presiding.
14 COMMITTEE MEMBERS:
15 RONALD G. BALLINGER, Chairman 16 DENNIS BLEY, Member 17 CHARLES H. BROWN, JR. Member 18 VESNA B. DIMITRIJEVIC, Member 19 WALTER L. KIRCHNER, Member 20 JOSE MARCH-LEUBA, Member 21 DAVID A. PETTI, Member 22 JOY L. REMPE, Member 23 MATTHEW SUNSERI, Member 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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2 ACRS CONSULTANT:
1 STEPHEN SCHULTZ 2
DESIGNATED FEDERAL OFFICIAL:
ALSO PRESENT:
6 CHRISTINA ANTONESCU, ACRS 7
JEFF BARTELME, SHINE Medical Technologies, 8
Inc.
9 LARRY BURKHART, ACRS 10 MAKEEKA COMPTON, ACRS 11 JIM COSTEDIO, SHINE Medical Technologies, Inc.
12 THOMAS DASHIELL, ACRS 13 STEVEN LYNCH, NRR 14 SHANDETH MONTGOMERY, ACRS 15 SCOTT MOORE, ACRS 16 TRACY RADEL, SHINE Medical Technologies, Inc.
17 KATHY WEAVER, ACRS 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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3 CONTENTS 1
Opening Remarks and Objectives 4
2 ACRS Final Letter on Construction Permit 3
Application 4
Chapter Titles for SHINE Review......... 18 5
FSAR Appendix a 6
Review of Past Issues Raised 7
Review Approach and Focus Areas......... 34 8
Public Comments................. 51 9
Closing Remarks................. 52 10 Adjourn..................... 53 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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4 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 1
1:59 p.m.
2 CHAIR BALLINGER: This meeting will now 3
come to order. I'm assuming everybody can hear me, I 4
hope. This is a meeting of the Advisory Committee on 5
Reactor Safeguards subcommittee. I'm Ron Ballinger, 6
chairman of the SHINE NPUFs Subcommittee.
7 Members in attendance are, I see most 8
everybody except maybe Peter Riccardella. But in any 9
case, we have a quorum. Chris Brown and Derek 10 Widmayer are the designated federal officials for this 11 meeting. Chris and Derek can make sure that our court 12 reporter is on and I think that's true.
13 The purpose of today's meeting is for the 14 subcommittee to discuss past SE issues identified 15 during the construction review, SHINE construction 16 review, and discuss the review approach for the 17 operating license for SHINE.
18 Members of the NRC staff and SHINE are 19 participating as observers. The ACRS was established 20 by statute and is governed by the Federal Advisory 21 Committee Act, FACA. The NRC implements FACA in 22 accordance with its regulations found in Title 10 of 23 the Code of Federal Regulations Part 7.
24 The committee can only speak through its 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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5 published letter reports. We hold meetings to gather 1
information and perform preparatory work that will 2
support our deliberations at a full committee meeting.
3 The rules for participation in all ACRS meetings are 4
announced in the Federal Register, were announced in 5
the Federal Register on June 13th, 2019.
6 The ACRS section of the U.S. NRC public 7
website provides our charter, bylaws, agendas, letter 8
reports and full transcripts of all full and 9
subcommittee meetings including slides presented 10 there. The meeting agenda for this meeting was posted 11 there.
12 Portions of this meeting will be closed, 13 if necessary, to protect proprietary information 14 pursuant to 5 USC 552(B)(C)(4) and we'll have to rely 15 on the staff or SHINE to speak up if they think we're 16 getting into something that's proprietary.
17 For the open portion of this meeting we 18 have also set aside five minutes for comments from the 19 members of the public attending or listening to this 20 meeting. No requests for making a statement to the 21 subcommittee has been received from the public.
22 The transcript of the meeting is being 23 kept and will be made available on our website for the 24 open portion of this meeting. We have a bridge line 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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6 established for the public to listen in to the 1
meeting. To minimize disturbance, the public line 2
will be kept in a listen-only mode. The public line 3
will be terminated during the closed portion if we 4
need it.
5 To avoid disturbance, I request that 6
attendees make sure that they are muted. I think the 7
public line is open -- is open. Derek will send all 8
the members and Steve Lynch the closed and the Teams 9
invite should we need a closed session. I think Derek 10 is online so he knows.
11 Note that we have scheduled the first 12 subcommittee meeting for SHINE on November 4th, which 13 is an information meeting only. Chris and I 14 collected, we put a fair amount of background material 15 up on the SharePoint site and we have sent selected 16 documents to members, so there's no SER for this 17 meeting, just background and the staff's review 18 approach.
19 So that's the -- that's where we're 20 beginning. Since I'm the only presenter here, this is 21 a little bit of a free-form meeting, if you will. My 22 proposal is to do the presentation and, you know, 23 people can ask questions, of course, as we go along.
24 Going forward, this is the first shot at 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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7 a schedule. After the November 4th meeting where the 1
SHINE people and the staff will present things, we'll 2
take that in conjunction with anything, any outcomes 3
from this meeting. Chris is going to be taking notes 4
and we'll have a transcript.
5 And with those pieces, we'll put together 6
a final, if you will, draft that we would then discuss 7
at the December P&P meeting. So that's the hope that 8
we'll get this done. So unless there are questions 9
from members, I'm happy to start the presentation.
10 You'll have to indulge me a little bit.
11 Every time I click on the Teams, the PowerPoint 12 presentation, the Teams screen gets blacked out, so 13 I'm not sure what's going on. In any case, do we have 14 any comments from members?
15 MEMBER SUNSERI: Hey, Ron. This is Matt.
16 I just want to thank you for doing this. I think it's 17 going to be a big help in preparing for the P&P and 18 getting us organized through this review, so thank you 19 up front.
20 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yeah, I've taken some 21 liberties here and I've inflicted on the members the 22 notes that John Stetkar took for the construction 23 permit review, which were quite extensive as a matter 24 of fact. And Walt commented. I don't know if he's on 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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8 the line. I don't see him. Anyway --
1 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Ron. I'm here.
2 CHAIR BALLINGER: -- that's a valuable 3
source of input. By the way, that was sent out in 4
response to Dennis's comment that he would be 5
interested in dealing with Chapter 2, which has to do 6
with aircraft and all that kind of stuff. And so I 7
went and got John Stetkar's notes and sent them out.
8 Anyway, okay. So let me hit full screen 9
here, if it works.
10 MR. BROWN: Hey, Ron. Walt is on.
11 CHAIR BALLINGER: Oh, okay. I'm just --
12 the list got too long and it overlapped. Okay.
13 MEMBER KIRCHNER: I just couldn't find my 14 mike quickly enough, Ron.
15 MR. BROWN: Yes.
16 CHAIR BALLINGER: We should also be able 17 to walk and chew gum at the same time like John 18 Stetkar can, obviously.
19 MEMBER KIRCHNER: Yeah. Well, John's 20 notes are exemplary.
21 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yeah. I think so.
22 Anyway, okay. Here we go.
23 Okay, again, the goals here will be, and 24 I'll give you just a basic update on the staff review.
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9 Try to and begin to settle on a review format, 1
identify potential areas of focus, and then if we get 2
really lucky for the last two, have people start to 3
volunteer for various tasks.
4 This is the review schedule that the staff 5
has as of August 2020. That may have been updated in 6
the last few weeks, but I don't think so. So the 7
first serious meeting will be, there'll be an 8
information meeting on November the 4th, and then the 9
subcommittees will start in January.
10 So we've got from January until close to 11 the end of the year in January, in 2021, for the 12 review. This is a document -- by the way we have been 13 interacting with the staff on a more or less 14 continuous basis over the past several months to keep 15 track of how they're doing and what's going on.
16 And this slide shows a schematic of the 17 staff review path and identifies three different areas 18 based on level 1, level 2, level 3. You can read the 19 levels. But the level 3 review area is probably the 20 most extensive, if you will, and you can see that, you 21 know, human factors, instrumentation and control, 22 security, accident analysis, tech specs and fire 23 protection are important, are considered quite 24 important.
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10 But that doesn't mean the others aren't as 1
well, but it just puts a kind of a perspective on 2
where the staff believes they're going with this.
3 MEMBER SUNSERI: Does that chart indicate 4
any priority or is it just a bucketing of the topics 5
in a way that makes sense?
6 CHAIR BALLINGER: I don't know about 7
priority. It's just a -- I think the first order, 8
it's a bucket level of where things are going to have 9
the most scrutiny, if you will. And Steve Lynch is on 10 the line so he can correct me if I'm wrong. He's the 11 one that provided this and I put the black box around 12 it myself.
13 MEMBER BLEY: Ron?
14 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yeah.
15 MEMBER BLEY: It's Dennis. Along this 16 line, I see tech specs out in that line level 3 review 17 area. There isn't any content yet in the tech specs 18 section. Do you have any idea when that's going to 19 show up?
20 CHAIR BALLINGER: Well, I don't have any 21 idea, but we will get an idea probably for the 22 November meeting when the staff presents but knowing 23 that it's probably going to be a bit fluid. But it's 24 got to be pretty hard because there's really only 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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11 about a seven-month review period.
1 MEMBER BLEY: That's why I was asking.
2 CHAIR BALLINGER: So I think, you know, 3
it's going to be incumbent on us and on the staff to 4
get after this.
5 MR. LYNCH: And maybe I can -- this is 6
Steve Lynch. I can clarify the questions that were 7
just asked, if that's okay.
8 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yeah, sure.
9 MR. LYNCH: So just to address this chart 10 here, this was just intended as a bidding. Those 11 topics that were requiring, you know, as Member 12 Ballinger said, you know, the greatest amount of 13 scrutiny and those items that were maybe most unique 14 to the SHINE facility and perhaps needed more 15 engagement with the applicant prior to going with RAI.
16 So in that level 3
- area, it is 17 representing some of those more unique areas 18 particularly with accident analysis and 19 instrumentation and control systems that have required 20 additional engagement. So we have -- are working with 21 the applicant for effective path forwards on these 22 items.
23 And then with the technical 24 specifications, I think I can clear that up quickly 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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12 and I can send a clarifying link. So I believe there 1
is reference to technical specifications in what's 2
labeled as Chapter 14, but there's also a separate 3
document of the complete technical specifications 4
within the application.
5 So the technical specifications have been 6
submitted to the NRC staff, they just might be in a 7
different place than perhaps you had looked at. So I 8
can help clarify and get the correct link for that.
9 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yeah, we have that as an 10 appendix --
11 MR. LYNCH: Yes.
12 CHAIR BALLINGER: -- which then got turned 13 into Chapter 14. So we have that and I can locate it 14 and send it out to the members.
15 MEMBER BLEY: Okay. Well, the chapter I 16 spoke to is Chapter 14, so what Steve said is probably 17 true.
18 Steve, this is Dennis Bley. One other 19 question. There are several chapters, notably 20 electric power and some others, for which there's no 21 proprietary version but there are public versions.
22 Does that mean that the public version is all there is 23 or is there something missing?
24 MR. LYNCH: Yeah, you are correct. So for 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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13 those chapters that they're -- some chapters do not 1
have any proprietary information in them and in those 2
cases there was just that, only that public version 3
made available.
4 MEMBER BLEY: Thank you.
5 CHAIR BALLINGER: Okay, also I'll make 6
another comment on the green area. If you think about 7
reviewing a sort of PWR/BWR/DCA the areas in the green 8
area are the ones that while the chapters may seem the 9
same, the actual content and the way they operate is 10 very much different, because the SHINE application, 11 the SHINE system is very much different and it's one 12 of a kind.
13 Okay, so the current staff technical focus 14 at least as of this week or so, they've been focusing 15 on instrumentation and control, the accident analysis, 16 security planning, some human factors and technical 17 specifications, and also they just completed an audit 18 that resulted in revision of Chapter 7.
19 And so when you go to the SharePoint site, 20 the revision 2, if you will, of the SE -- not the SE, 21 excuse me, of the FSAR is pretty much the Chapter 7 22 revision.
23 Okay, to remind everybody, I sent out the 24 letter, our letter to everybody, but this is a 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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14 quotation directly from the letter and we made a 1
number of comments in our letter and this is the sort 2
of result of those comments.
3 And it turns out that the staff and the 4
ACRS identified several issues which eventually ended 5
up in Appendix A to the SER where these issues are 6
documented. And we make a very clear statement in our 7
letter that we're looking forward to making sure that 8
those Appendix A issues are addressed.
9 And they run all the way from construction 10 issues to operational issues to theory or some physics 11 that has to be done. I didn't want to send the whole 12 thing out. It would have just been too long. But 13 just to remind everybody that there is a place where 14 these are listed and it's very likely that the 15 November 4 meeting will get an update on those 16 Appendix A items.
17 MEMBER BLEY: I'd like to pursue one of 18 those if I could a second, Ron.
19 CHAIR BALLINGER: Sure enough.
20 MEMBER BLEY: We had identified two things 21 we thought were deficiencies at the construction 22 permit stage and SHINE responded and the staff 23 reviewed those and so we were happy to go ahead. But 24 one of the things they committed to was having good 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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15 procedures for handling layup conditions should they 1
need to stop the process at some point in time.
2 I guess I'd ask
- Steve, are those 3
procedures already in the package somewhere?
4 MR. LYNCH: For those specific procedures 5
I'll need to go back and confirm that. But we are, in 6
general, we are looking at these items and I can 7
confirm that for our meeting in November.
8 MEMBER BLEY: Okay. That was an important 9
one for us so we do want to see that. Okay.
10 MR. LYNCH: I understand.
11 CHAIR BALLINGER: The other one had to do 12 with aircraft impact, if I'm remembering correctly.
13 MEMBER BLEY: That's right.
14 MR. LYNCH: Yeah. And I can confirm there 15 is a fair amount of attention that is being paid to 16 aircraft impact for this portion of the review. We 17 have had several questions on that.
18 MEMBER REMPE: So this is Joy and I had a 19 question from just going through the material that 20 we've been allowed to access now. One thing that 21 caught my eye is that they've made some significant 22 changes in their processing, so this red oil concern 23 has gone away. Will we hear about that in November or 24 has the staff had time to review that yet?
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16 MR. LYNCH: So what we'll do for November, 1
there may be some of these topics that we are -- so 2
especially as we're looking into particularly chemical 3
hazards and reactions that is an ongoing piece of the 4
review we can address to the extent that we are 5
considering those and our path forward on that but 6
some of this we may have to follow up on in subsequent 7
meetings.
8 But what I do want to put forward is a 9
good point that there have been some design changes 10 from the construction permit to the operating license.
11 That as we look at some of these items that were 12 included as commitments in Appendix A, some of them 13 have been superseded by changes that SHINE has 14 proposed.
15
- And, essentially, we're looking at 16 information fresh in a certain way so we can help 17 connect the dots on those areas where this appendix 18 still is valid for certain supplements versus other 19 areas where, essentially, the NRC staff is taking a 20 fresh review with the idea that when we write our 21 safety evaluation for the operating license 22 application that we are still able to confidently say 23 that all of our evaluation findings and regulatory 24 requirements were met and that any open issues from 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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17 the construction permit have been successfully closed.
1 And we can talk about some of the --
2 (Simultaneous speaking.)
3 MEMBER REMPE: So maybe I'll change my 4
question a bit and say perhaps in November if you 5
would highlight all the significant changes, you don't 6
have to go into the depth if you've not completed the 7
review of it all, but that one seemed like a big one 8
to me.
9 And if there are big ones that we can 10 understand, because as we try to remember what we 11 reviewed way back when it would be good to know some 12 things have just changed significantly so we can kind 13 of assimilate the information appropriately.
14 MR. LYNCH: Understand, and we can 15 certainly do that. And what I can do, I know SHINE is 16 also on the line. I'll coordinate with them so their 17 presentation on November 4th they'll be providing an 18 overview of their technology, so I can coordinate with 19 them as well on highlighting specific design changes 20 that they can speak to as well so that we're 21 coordinated in those presentations. So I'll work with 22 them on that.
23 MEMBER BLEY: Okay. Steve, this is Dennis 24 again. I think that's great if they've changed their 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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18 processes to avoid some of the hazards, you know, red 1
oil in particular, but we raised some others. But for 2
you and for SHINE, if they've changed the chemical 3
processes to eliminate one hazard, we need to look 4
very carefully to make sure there isn't some new one 5
that we know even less about that might be cropping 6
up, so we'll be looking for that.
7 MR. LYNCH: Yep, absolutely. And I think 8
we'll be well equipped going forward to address that.
9 CHAIR BALLINGER: You guys are not going 10 to believe this, but I just got a phone call from 11 Janesville, Wisconsin. Guess where SHINE is going to 12 be constructed.
13 We all set? I hear nothing.
14 MEMBER PETTI: I can see.
15 CHAIR BALLINGER: Okay. I'm looking at a 16 screen that I can't see the speaker on, so.
17 Okay, so this is a schematic of a proposed 18 review path and this is taken pretty much at least the 19 way I saw it from the way we reviewed the NuScale 20 license application. Remember that we, this is 21 consistent with the NuScale letter. It's consistent 22 with our, what did we want to call it, new way of 23 operating.
24 And so it's basically a schematic that 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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19 hopefully outlines what we've already done in the 1
NuScale side. So we would take individual chapters, 2
assign them or people would be voluntold or whatever 3
to review these and then make a decision related to 4
whether there are issues that are important enough to 5
bring to the full committee.
6 The member would report to the 7
subcommittee and the full committee and that would 8
result in a letter to the ACRS administration. For 9
focused area reviews there would be a team of people 10 with a leader and the same kind of schematic would go 11 ahead that would be a team report which would be 12 presented and the focus area reports as well as the 13 member letter reports, if you want to call them that, 14 would go into the final letter.
15 So I may be getting the words wrong. I 16 would be, I would appreciate some comments and I can 17
-- everybody has this PowerPoint presentation, so if 18 I've missed something, please make the corrections.
19 But that's the proposed path. That doesn't mean it's 20 the actual path, it just means it's a proposed path.
21 MEMBER REMPE: Can we wait to make a 22 decision about the proposed path until we get the 23 overview presentation --
24 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yeah. No --
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20 MEMBER REMPE: -- or do we really want to 1
make this decision today?
2 CHAIR BALLINGER: No. No. The point is, 3
remember, the path forward is, this is the straw man.
4 There'll be a presentation by the staff and SHINE on 5
November the 4th. Then we will take input, Chris and 6
I will take input from the members and anything that 7
transpires as a result of that of the November 4th 8
meeting, amalgamate things and then present something 9
for discussion at P&P on the December P&P meeting, at 10 which time, hopefully, we would agree on a path 11 forward.
12 So this is nothing more than a recap of 13 the way NuScale was done, so if there's another way to 14 do it, that's fine. We just need to get suggestions.
15 MEMBER BLEY: Well, Ron?
16 MEMBER REMPE: The reason why I'm asking 17 is, I thought you said at the end of this meeting you 18 wanted people to volunteer for things and I would 19 rather wait to volunteer and make a decision until I 20 understand how different things are, is just why I'm 21 asking that question.
22 CHAIR BALLINGER: Well, but true, but we 23 still have chapters to look at. No matter how we do 24 the review, we still have members that are going to be 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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21 looking at the various chapters. So.
1 MEMBER REMPE: Are we going to have -- is 2
your vision, could you go back to that flow chart for 3
a minute? If we have this overview, is there the 4
potential that we will not have any presentations by 5
the staff on individual chapters?
6 Because like, for example, this accident 7
analysis chapter, I kind of think we need to have a 8
presentation, but I guess I need to hear more about 9
how much things have changed from the old days. And 10 so I guess I'm kind of wondering if we're going, 11 getting too hyped on trying to be more efficient and 12 maybe we need to think about what we're going to be 13 seeing before we make that decision.
14 CHAIR BALLINGER: You're making my point.
15 MEMBER REMPE: Okay. Okay, just trying to 16 understand.
17 CHAIR BALLINGER: That's the whole point 18 of this process.
19 MEMBER REMPE: Okay, because you're saying 20 you want people to volunteer for chapters, but we may 21 actually have presentations on these chapters or not?
22 CHAIR BALLINGER: Maybe.
23 MEMBER REMPE: Okay.
24 CHAIR BALLINGER: You know, again, I think 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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22 the milestone would be the outcome of the P&P 1
discussion in December.
2 MEMBER BLEY: Hey, Ron.
3 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yes, sir.
4 MEMBER BLEY: This is Dennis. This is a 5
map of what we did in the phase 5 review.
6 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yeah.
7 MEMBER BLEY: An SER with no open items.
8 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yeah.
9 MEMBER BLEY: We hadn't developed it until 10 after we did the phase 3 review where we looked at all 11 the chapters. On some of these things I don't think 12 you have to wait long.
13 CHAIR BALLINGER: No.
14 MEMBER BLEY: There wasn't enough in 15 conduct of operations and accident analysis back in 16 the construction permit days to give us confidence for 17 an operating license. Those, we're really going to 18 have to look at those, probably Chapter 4 and Chapter 19 6 as well.
20 CHAIR BALLINGER: Sure.
21 MEMBER BLEY: So this looks simpler than 22 it's going to be.
23 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yeah, okay. I should 24 have --
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23 MEMBER BLEY: But I think you need to plan 1
on having four or five of these for sure.
2 CHAIR BALLINGER: Sure enough.
3 MEMBER BLEY: After reviews, first.
4 CHAIR BALLINGER: Sure enough.
5 My impression is that any chapter that we 6
get to review will be with no open items.
7 MEMBER BLEY: Boy. Are they that far 8
along to -- Steve, is that right?
9 CHAIR BALLINGER: I think that's what I 10 heard from Steve. Am I right, Steve?
11 MR. LYNCH: Sorry. I had to find my 12 unmute button. So our plan is, you know, how we want 13
-- and as far as our staff review process and trying 14 to streamline this so we are working on developing 15 draft safety evaluation input as we prepare and issue 16 requests for additional information to SHINE.
17 What we would like to do is get our 18 responses to RAIs back, complete our safety evaluation 19 input to the point that there's no open items in 20 specific technical areas, and then just go to the ACRS 21 with our completed chapters that don't, or subject 22 areas that to the staff's best ability have been 23 completed and we believe that there are no open items.
24 Recognizing that as we have discussions 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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24 with the ACRS, members may have questions that we need 1
to go back and follow up on, but we would like to 2
provide the SE chapters and subject areas to the 3
members that have been completed.
4 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yeah. So our entry 5
point is a little bit different than it was for 6
NuScale and, of course, it doesn't prevent us for 7
asking for a subcommittee meeting on a topic at any 8
time. So, but we are entering it at a little bit 9
later time in this case.
10 MEMBER REMPE: So I want to rephrase what 11 I heard from Steve. What I think I heard from him is 12 that his plan was to bring chapters that are 13 completed, grouped together according to topic or what 14 makes sense, and come to ACRS. And at that point, 15 again we'll still have lead ACRS members for the 16 chapters or a topic, but we will get a chance or a 17 bite of the apple for all of the chapters.
18 Is that what I think I heard from you, 19 Steve? That you are planning as a staffer to, or the 20 staff is planning to bring to us all some sort of a 21 presentation on each and every chapter in a group?
22 MR. LYNCH: Yes, yeah. All of the 23 information will be provided to the ACRS. And I think 24 part of our iteration from today, November, and then 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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25 into December is to agree and align on how we want to 1
group those chapter areas so that as we're having the 2
discussion we're focused on the technical areas.
3 But yes, all the members will have access 4
to all of the completed chapters of the Safety 5
Evaluation Report from the staff and all of that will 6
be open to questions and comments. But our goal and 7
our presentations and interactions will be to focus on 8
those items that are most safety significant.
9 MEMBER REMPE: So what I think I'm hearing 10 is maybe you need a little different flow chart, Ron, 11 one that has chapters grouped together by topic that 12 is a merge of focused areas with underlying chapters.
13 CHAIR BALLINGER: Good enough. Just 14 provide us with input. Remember, we'll update this 15 chart.
16 MEMBER REMPE: Yeah. Well, it's going to 17 be a chart that's not either one of these, but 18 something a little niche that is more like that 19 earlier thing that you had with the different colors 20 or something like the last page with chapters that are 21 underlying a topic or a grouping, so.
22 CHAIR BALLINGER: But.
23 MEMBER REMPE: That's a little different 24 than either of these things.
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26 CHAIR BALLINGER: Well, we aim to please.
1 Input is appreciated.
2 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: This is Jose. Let's 3
bring some -- let's bring that to the gown (phonetic) 4 and make some reality. The SER from the staff will be 5
ready, if we are lucky, two months before the last 6
date. There is not going to be time to group them or 7
make focus -- at best, we can assign one chapter to 8
one member to work a
week on it and make 9
recommendations to see if there's a serious problem 10 with it. But this is going on a fast track.
11 MEMBER REMPE: So, Jose, what you're 12 saying is, okay, there's 15 chapters. Chapters 2, 7, 13 8, 10 might be ready next month, those will come. So 14 it won't be based on topic, it will come as a grouping 15 and maybe assign it to the members and don't worry 16 about this focused area stuff.
17 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: If we want this done 18 in the time that I heard about the only way you can 19 get it done is one member reviews one chapter, makes 20 recommendations, timely recommendations to the 21 committee whether there are issues are not.
22 MEMBER REMPE: But why even do that? Why 23 not just let the staff bring whatever four chapters 24 are available when they become available, at the end 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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27 of that discuss whether a letter's warranted or move 1
on. Basically, that's what we did at the CP stage was 2
we only did one final letter at, you know, if there 3
were some topics that were highlighted at the end of 4
the meeting somebody focused on it and wrote it down.
5 But that almost seems more logical for 6
something like this instead of this revised process 7
that worked when you're doing a Part 52.
8 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Yeah. Unless that I 9
think Dennis said when you're doing this, a stage 5 of 10 the review and you've already reviewed everything else 11 over the last previous two years, you can do this more 12 easily. I am just raising the problem that this is 13 going very fast.
14 We better not have any issues because if 15 we have any issues, we won't resolve them. There 16 won't be time.
17 CHAIR BALLINGER: This is --
18 MEMBER REMPE: And the best way to bring 19 that to one's attention is have the staff come as they 20 get these chapters done in a grouping that's hopefully 21 going to minimize their effort. If there's some 22 chapter that's a no-never mind, they don't have to do 23 it.
24 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Yeah. Those are the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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28 ones we don't have problems with. The problems, I 1
think, some chapters will come one month before the 2
deadline.
3 MEMBER REMPE: Oh, yeah.
4 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: It's always the case.
5 I mean that's --
6 (Simultaneous speaking.)
7 CHAIR BALLINGER: I mean we're operating 8
on a theoretical here now.
9 MEMBER BLEY: Well, wait a minute, Ron.
10 CHAIR BALLINGER: Jose may be correct, but 11 that the staff is hearing us.
12 MEMBER BLEY: Yeah. Ron, this is Dennis.
13 I want to, you know, Jose's point is well 14 taken. If we're waiting until a couple months before 15 this whole thing wraps up, many of us and the staff 16 and SHINE folks may be in for some uncomfortable 17 surprises.
18 In the last substantive paragraph of our 19 construction permit letter we identified a number of 20 topics that weren't fared out well enough at that 21 stage to be adequate for an operating license. And, 22 you know, they're on that list that you put up earlier 23 in this thing and I think the staff would do well to 24 take a look at that list and bring any of those, any 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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29 information affecting those items to us as early as 1
possible to make sure it's coming together.
2 Now we can read the SAR and maybe we'll 3
find some things that we'll raise as well, but 4
anything that was on that list ought to get some early 5
focus and let us have a look, I think, or it'll be 6
pretty tough at the end.
7 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yeah. And I think Steve 8
has already said that he'll be just talking to these 9
things in the November 4th meeting.
10 MEMBER BLEY: Well, that's where we'll 11 start. We'll see what they have to say then.
12 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yeah. Yeah.
13 Okay, other questions? All right, this 14 is, again this is a straw man, of course, and all I 15 did was I took the NuScale chart, modified it to be 16 consistent with SHINE, asked for input from members 17 from which I have gotten some feedback from Dennis and 18 from Dave, nobody else, on the topics.
19 I've basically put the straw man together 20 to identify what could be focus areas and I've listed 21 them here. And so, you know, we need to have at least 22 a discussion on this today, initially, or people need 23 to think about it for November 4th and going beyond.
24 But I think Dennis and Jose are correct, 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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30 we can't be letting too much moss grow under our feet 1
on this. So the areas that we put together, 2
criticality and the safety and the source terms, 3
security, human HRA, conduct of operations and 4
chemical processing, so these are areas that I've just 5
put here based on limited input and I'd be much 6
appreciative for some feedback from members.
7 And maybe we don't even have to have any 8
focus areas, but this is one way to look at it.
9 MEMBER PETTI: Well, Ron, the thing that 10 I'm struck with is, to me, the worker safety issues 11 are ones that probably are going to be important here.
12 You know, how does the tritium come into the facility?
13 CHAIR BALLINGER: Dave, it's hard to hear 14 from --
15 MEMBER PETTI: Okay, hold on. I forgot I 16 have to move over here. Is this better?
17 CHAIR BALLINGER: Marginally.
18 MEMBER PETTI: Marginally. How's the 19 tritium get onsite? How does it get loaded into the 20 chamber? Is it recycle? Those are done with people 21 and tritium leaks easily, anyone who's dealt with it.
22 Similarly, on the other
- end, the 23 extraction to get the moly-99 out, it's all done, in 24 essence, in a hot cell. But stuff's volatile. You 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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31 have the fission products are volatile.
1 So all the radiation protection aspects, 2
all of that sort of all fall onto the workers that are 3
responsible for that. And that's an initiative that's 4
going to kind of cross probably the chapters.
5 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yeah. See, that's, I 6
would look at that as the HRA conduct of operations 7
and safety part.
8 MEMBER PETTI: Okay.
9 CHAIR BALLINGER: You know, because you're 10 right. You know, it's very, very different than any 11 other facility.
12 MEMBER PETTI: Yeah.
13 CHAIR BALLINGER: You know, and I had 14 originally labeled criticality safety source term 15 physics, but it's really a much broader area.
16 Chemical processing, that is unique to this facility.
17 And, you know, as a practical matter, it crosses over 18 into conduct of operations and criticality, so it's a 19 pretty broad topic other than just separating moly-99.
20 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Yeah, I think what 21 Dave was referring to, in my mind when I was listening 22 to him it was this criticality and safety source term 23 which have I been voluntold on, the first time I see 24 my name in there --
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32 CHAIR BALLINGER: Ah.
1 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: -- it --
2 CHAIR BALLINGER: Six months ago I asked 3
you about the physics and you said, I can handle it.
4 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Yeah, sure, sure, 5
sure. I re-volunteer. I re-volunteer. This probably 6
means two focused areas, one in criticality and one on 7
safety source term. That's what Dave was talking 8
about --
9 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yeah.
10 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: -- is where does the 11 tritium comes from, where does the moly escape, things 12 like that I really don't know anything about. I would 13 propose though to split that -- focus it in two.
14 CHAIR BALLINGER: I'm fine with that --
15 (Simultaneous speaking.)
16 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: And I volunteer Dave 17 to do the safety source term.
18 MEMBER PETTI: Yeah, yeah. I'd be happy 19 to do that.
20 CHAIR BALLINGER: Okay, so let's, you 21 know, hopefully one of the outcomes of this is an 22 updated version of this chart. That's a great idea.
23 MEMBER PETTI: I just also wonder if they 24 have the ventilation systems for this tritium, you 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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33 know, you've got to have special ventilation systems 1
if the levels are high enough. Do they? What are 2
they using? What does the HVAC system look like?
3 That sort of stuff.
4 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yeah, they've got a lot 5
of detail in there, Dave.
6 MEMBER PETTI: They do. Good.
7 CHAIR BALLINGER: We did talk about that 8
in the CP stage.
9 MEMBER PETTI: Good. So are they getting 10 the tritium? There's not like there's lots of it 11 around, you know. Are they going to buy it from 12 Savannah River?
13 CHAIR BALLINGER: Who knows? I think we 14 may be getting into a proprietary issue.
15 MEMBER PETTI: Yeah.
16 CHAIR BALLINGER: Oh, by the way, this 17 material after this presentation needs to be 18 considered ECI.
19 MEMBER SUNSERI: Hey, Ron. This is Matt.
20 I'd be willing to be associated with the conduct of 21 operations and the tech spec technical reviews. Want 22 to put me down for that?
23 CHAIR BALLINGER: I'm happy to do that.
24 Maybe this -- are you the beginning of a bow wave of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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34 volunteers? I guess I don't hear the wave. I don't 1
hear the wave.
2 Anyway, please provide input to me or to 3
Chris, or both of us, actually, so that we can, you 4
know, come up with a revision 2 of this thing which 5
would be part of the discussion that might be updated 6
again after the November 4th meeting.
7 And the staff, now Steve knows this list 8
of potential focus areas and it would be nice if 9
during the November 4th meeting that some input or 10 related to our thoughts on this would be useful.
11 Okay. Well, that's the end of the game.
12 These are the key references, although there's a pile 13 of stuff on the SharePoint site and one of our members 14 had difficulty finding it, so the last two URLs for 15 all you would want to know about SHINE.
16 And I don't have a slide that says thank 17 you, but thank you. So this is turning out to be a 18 pretty short meeting, which is okay. What should we 19 do from now on? Should we open the line for public 20 comments?
21 MEMBER BROWN: No, I -- this is Charlie, 22 Ron. In which of these areas are we going to start 23 establishing a relative schedule for what we're going 24 to be doing? There's a subcommittee, but what is 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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35 going to be addressed and when do we find out what's 1
going to be addressed at what time?
2 CHAIR BALLINGER: Well, we will be, Chris 3
and I will be working with the staff pretty much 4
continuously and as soon as we have any information, 5
we'll it pass it on to the members.
6 And with respect to the focus areas, if 7
you will, if there are focus areas that we settle on 8
that may have an impact on how we interact with the 9
staff because Jose is correct, that we're on a very 10 short leash and so we can't be doing a focus area 11 review the week before the final letter.
12 So I'm sure the staff and we are well 13 aware of the tight schedule and trying to get a handle 14 on when these things should be, when these meetings 15 might occur. So we don't have anything right now, but 16 we know the first real meeting is scheduled for 17 January.
18 Am I right, Chris?
19 MR. BROWN: Yes. Hey, Steve, do you have 20 an idea what would be coming in January?
21 MR. LYNCH: That's something I think I'll 22 be refining over the next week and we can talk about 23 that on those subjects as kind of grouping that 24 together as we go into that November 4th meeting. So 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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36 understand that that's something that we need to start 1
planning.
2 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Yeah, this is Jose 3
again. Can you think or the staff start thinking 4
about how you could help us do reviews on the focus 5
area more instead of chapter by chapter. The basic 6
way is to go to the 1 to the 2 to the 3. When you go 7
focus you shorten the time. You don't have to do as 8
much work.
9 But if you feel as the information, 10 Chapter 7, Chapter 8, Chapter 9, you don't have to 11 wait until everything is in, they like can do an 12 evaluation of criticality, whereas, if you do the 13 presentations on the focus area direction I can do my 14 review faster or more efficiently.
15 You see what I mean? I mean the basic way 16 is to do chapter by chapter as we've done always, but 17 it takes time. It takes time, a lot of effort.
18 CHAIR BALLINGER: Like Jose commented --
19 MEMBER KIRCHNER: One possibility -- Jose, 20 this is Walt.
21 One possibility might be after the 22 November informational meeting to zero in on these 23 focus areas and actually start with them and let our 24 chapter reviews follow the focus area, actually invert 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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37 the order.
1 If indeed we're worried -- I'll just say 2
something and I don't want to make an issue that's not 3
an issue -- if we're very concerned, say, about 4
criticality safety or tritium control and we're pretty 5
confident that that's going to be a cross-cutting 6
issue, and I think we would know that in the 7
November/December timeframe, then we could perhaps 8
request briefings on those issues early in the review 9
cycle while we are in parallel, we've divvied up the 10 chapters and doing the chapter reviews. Just a 11 thought.
12 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yeah, Walt, that's a 13 very good point. In fact, it may be that it's more 14 important to settle on the focus areas, because that 15 will give us direction or at least on what we think 16 what chapters need to come when, because the focus 17 area team will have to get at the chapters that are 18 related to their area.
19 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Yeah, but --
20 MEMBER SUNSERI: It seems like to me that 21 approach, if I was going to --
22 CHAIR BALLINGER: Say again?
23 MEMBER SUNSERI: I'm sorry. Go ahead.
24 Ron, this is Matt. I mean it sounds to me 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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38 like that if we took that approach, we would be having 1
to revisit the focus areas twice, because as we know 2
from previous reviews the devil's in the details in 3
these focus areas. And not understanding how all the 4
systems work and the parts fit together can complicate 5
that focus area review which is supposed to be more of 6
a cross-cutting element. I don't know. I'd have to 7
think about that a little bit.
8 CHAIR BALLINGER: That's a good point. I 9
think, I'm hoping -- Steve is an MIT graduate so he's 10 getting this -- that he's developing an understanding 11 of where we are likely to go on this and that'll 12 probably impact his path forward.
13 MR. LYNCH: Yes, this is very helpful.
14 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: So as I was saying 15 earlier is, I love your slide 7 (phonetic) and the 16 approach. And if we want this to work, the only way 17 I see it possibly working in this short time is by you 18 having a slide 7, where you have one member review one 19 chapter and they start read the SAR without waiting 20 for the staff evaluation of the SER, okay.
21 CHAIR BALLINGER: Oh, yeah.
22 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Identifying issues.
23 And whenever we have issues then we have the focus 24 area reviews and then we really go focus on the last 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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39 three or four months. And remind me again, when do we 1
need the letter? Is it next summer?
2 CHAIR BALLINGER: October 2021.
3 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Yeah, but the SER 4
come next summer, right? Yeah, so we have 10, we have 5
12 months, 11 months.
6 CHAIR BALLINGER: Well, we have, you know, 7
remember, between now and November is basically no 8
time.
9 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Nothing, yeah.
10 CHAIR BALLINGER: So it's really from 11 January to October.
12 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: The only way I see 13 this working is for Charlie to get Chapter 7 off the 14 SAR and look at it by himself and maybe have one of 15 his large meetings with the staff on figuring out what 16 the issues are. And then for Charlie to report to the 17 full committee to say, I don't have any issues with 18 Chapter 7 or I have these three issues with Chapter 7.
19 But --
20 CHAIR BALLINGER: No, that's a great idea.
21 I mean that's actually the way I think it normally 22 happens.
23 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Yeah.
24 CHAIR BALLINGER: We wouldn't just go read 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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40 the SE on the chapter, we read all the underlying 1
documents.
2 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Yeah, so if you 3
wanted to --
4 MEMBER BROWN: So we need to move 5
carefully. Go ahead.
6 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: I'm over it.
7 MEMBER BROWN: I would just think, I was 8
just going to add, I think we need to be a little 9
cautious with having informal meetings with staff on 10 technical issues. It might not be in compliance with 11 our FACA requirements.
12 MEMBER SUNSERI: The chairman's correct.
13 We would have to be very cautious about that. They'd 14 have to be announced. We'd have to have a DFO there.
15 MEMBER BROWN: We've always, we've never 16 done just non-SEs on any individual chapter that I can 17 remember.
18 CHAIR BALLINGER: I mean when we did the 19 APR 1400 we had loads of informal meetings, but we 20 always had a DFO present.
21 MEMBER BROWN: No, I've never had a formal 22 meeting, Ron, informal meeting.
23 CHAIR BALLINGER: Okay. All right, well.
24 MEMBER BROWN: Not on the I&C section, I 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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41 didn't.
1 MEMBER SUNSERI: We had the info meetings 2
for planning and scheduling purposes not for technical 3
reviews, I think.
4 MEMBER BROWN: Exactly.
5 MEMBER BLEY: They don't have to be, you 6
know, full subcommittee meetings. You could have 7
smaller meetings, but they need to be announced and 8
have a DFO there to talk on technical issues and 9
anybody's welcome to come. We've done that on several 10 projects in the past.
11 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yeah, as long as we 12 adhere to that we should be okay. In fact, because of 13 the short schedule that ought to be a pretty 14 significant part of what we're doing.
15 MEMBER BROWN: Well, just for comparison's 16 sake, I pulled up Chapter 7 from back in 2015, the 17 construction permit reviews, and it was only about, I 18 don't know, 80 or 90 pages. The one in the new PSAR 19 that they show in the stuff you just told me where to 20 find is about 250 pages.
21 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yeah, and you've picked 22 on the one place that got extensive modification 23 between revision 1 and 2.
24 MEMBER BROWN: Well, yeah, except when I 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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42 called that up, Ron, it was listed as rev 0.
1 CHAIR BALLINGER: Well, you're looking at 2
the wrong rev then.
3 MEMBER BROWN: Well, that's, all I've got 4
is what you sent, what you said, told me I could go 5
look for.
6 CHAIR BALLINGER: Ah.
7 MEMBER BROWN: Don't worry with it now.
8 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yeah, yeah.
9 MEMBER BROWN: That's a detail to be 10 worked out. I'm just, the other thing we need to 11 consider, we do know we are working on something 12 besides this over the next seven, eight or nine 13 months.
14 I mean I've got, before you expect people 15 to do something, I've got three letters that are due 16 in the next two full committee meetings plus slides, 17 and in subcommittee meetings there's stuff to review.
18 So we've got to take into consideration everybody's 19 workload on other expectations that we're required to 20 meet. This is not full-time.
21 CHAIR BALLINGER: And what's different now 22 from past times?
23 MEMBER BROWN: Only seven or eight months.
24 CHAIR BALLINGER: Okay.
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43 MEMBER REMPE: Ron, and maybe Steve needs 1
to weigh in on this. But when we did the SHINE review 2
previously, there were a lot of separate documents 3
that might be called in the regular world, a topical 4
or a technical report talking about the qualification 5
of some of their processes, the data for the 6
chemistry. Are there other documents besides the RAIs 7
and the SAR?
8 CHAIR BALLINGER: I'm sure that there are.
9 And we will make sure that any of those things get put 10 on the SharePoint site with enough description in the 11 title so that it makes sense.
12 MEMBER REMPE: So you said you're sure.
13 Is Steve also sure? I'm just curious if we could get 14 the titles of all those documents, because as we try 15 and figure out what piece of the pie we're going to 16 take on it'd be good to understand what type of, or 17 the scope of the documents are that we're going to be 18 reviewing.
19 Steve, are you there?
20 MR. LYNCH: Yes, I'm here. So there are, 21 so SHINE does have internal procedures and 22 calculations and supporting documents that are -- as 23 part of the FSAR. However, there are some of these 24 documents that the NRC staff have reviewed as part of 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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44 regulatory audits to support our view and make sure 1
that we have a complete understanding of the 2
information presented in the FSAR. If there are 3
documents like this, I believe at the construction 4
permit stage, my memory's a little fuzzy right now, 5
that there were certain documents like that that we 6
did make available to the ACRS.
7 SHINE does have an electronic reading room 8
and for certain documents that we -- and I can work 9
with Chris and Member Ballinger on this. We can put 10 together a list of documents that may be beneficial to 11 the ACRS and I can coordinate with SHINE on this for 12 their comfort level on certain documents and sharing 13 those.
14 But we can certainly make any necessary 15 supporting documentation available and I'll coordinate 16 with SHINE and Chris on that.
17 MEMBER BLEY: Let me jump in. This is 18 Dennis.
19 Steve, I don't know if you remember, but 20 last time around SHINE set up a special reading room 21 for ACRS members where we had access to essentially 22 everything you guys were looking at. That would be 23 great if they'll do it again.
24 MR. LYNCH: Yeah, so SHINE does have an 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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45 electronic reading room and we can set up specific, 1
you know, one of the things that would probably be 2
helpful is as we do that is make sure that there's a 3
specific folder for ACRS to go to so you're not 4
hunting through documents that are maybe organized in 5
a way that aren't efficient for you.
6 But yes, there is an electronic reading 7
room that SHINE does have established that we access 8
and it wouldn't be an issue me getting the members 9
access to that.
10 MEMBER REMPE: So in the nearer term, if 11 we could get a list of what documents you think would 12 be helpful, and in my mind, we had some questions 13 about available data to support things. And again, 14 since they've changed their chemical processing a bit, 15 different data may be needed, but even back then there 16 was a lack of data to support certain assumptions as 17 I recall.
18 So that type of thing so we have a comfort 19 level about the data are adequate to support some of 20 the assumptions used in their evaluation would be 21 very, very helpful.
22 MR. LYNCH: Understand, and understand.
23 Making notes on that.
24 MEMBER REMPE: Thank you.
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46 CHAIR BALLINGER: Okay. Other questions?
1 Should we open the line for public comments?
2 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: One more comment.
3 Reading rooms are really nice when you go into review 4
because you have access to everything. But if we 5
could have a location, a proposed SharePoint where we 6
could have access to documents that aren't submitted 7
on the docket, then I can make a copy to my own 8
SharePoint and make comments on the PDF.
9 I love to read the PDF and write down my 10 comments on the same file. If you're reading in a 11 reading room, it's a read-only, difficult to access 12 using their own PDF viewer, so if we could put all of 13 the documents entirely on the docket in a single place 14 where we can copy them and then we can copy them to 15 our own SharePoint and then make comments on that 16 would be really helpful, and still get access to the 17 reading room because then you get everything that was 18 not in the docket.
19 MR. LYNCH: Sure. This is Steve Lynch.
20 Understand that and I'll look into that. But one 21 thing I do want to be careful with is certain 22 information is protected as export controlled. And 23 just for NRC processes on that anywhere we put that, 24 especially on SharePoint, it's going to need to be in 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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47 locations that are controlled, but by individual.
1 And there are certain restrictions on how 2
that information is to be stored locally, so I can 3
work on, you know, finding the best way to share that 4
information and making sure I put together the list 5
of, you know, controls that need to be on those 6
documents.
7 So I just want to highlight that, that 8
that is one little wrinkle and some of the information 9
is just its nature with the export control designation 10 on it.
11 MEMBER MARCH-LEUBA: Yeah, we go through 12 that step before on that. It's very easy to do. In 13 SharePoint you give access to only specific people, 14 which will be only the members plus whoever else has 15 a need to know. And whenever I copy a file from there 16 to my personal SharePoint, only I have access to it so 17 that's a perfectly acceptable way to see information.
18 MR. LYNCH: Okay, perfect. Okay.
19 MEMBER BROWN: Okay. Okay, can I make one 20 other observation? I don't know if anybody will run 21 into this again, but I was just trying to find another 22 package that related to me and it comes up and says 23 "enter password." And this is based on, this is back 24 on the old 2015 stuff, so I have no idea what the 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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48 password is now.
1 CHAIR BALLINGER: Charlie, we'll take care 2
of all this.
3 MEMBER BROWN: I'm just saying it's 4
another issue we're going to have to deal with if we 5
want to go back to this 2015 data. A lot of this 6
stuff was password protected because of the export 7
control and proprietary type issues. So just a 8
problem, that's all.
9 CHAIR BALLINGER: Okay. Any more comments 10 from the members? Can we --
11 MEMBER PETTI: Yeah, this is Dave. I'm 12 just not sure we know, I guess, how we're going to 13 attack this. I've heard three or four different 14 ideas. I guess we're going to wait until the 15 informational briefing in November to synthesize 16 everything we've heard and try to figure out what's 17 the most efficient way to get there.
18 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yes, that would be the 19 goal. And again, the outcome of the P&P discussion in 20 December would be the marching orders.
21 MEMBER BROWN: Well, you ought to start 22 asking the staff to provide us with certain types of 23 information then. In other words, when are various 24 chapters, I mean I really don't know how we can do 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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49 focus areas without looking at chapters.
1 If you don't know what you're looking at 2
it's kind of hard to work overtime on your focus areas 3
and we ought to certainly have a schedule for when the 4
various chapters are going to be available.
5 CHAIR BALLINGER: I mean I think the staff 6
is hearing us. I hope.
7 MR. LYNCH: Yes, I'm hearing you and we'll 8
work on getting this put together for communicating 9
that to the members.
10 MEMBER BROWN: And I think when we focus 11 on this in November and December, we really ought to 12 know, here's what we're going to do for chapters and 13 which ones need to be integrated into the focus area 14 reviews and they will come after we at least have an 15 idea of what the chapters are saying to us for those 16 focus areas at least.
17 CHAIR BALLINGER: Well, what you're saying 18 is that you want the focus areas established before 19 the December meeting.
20 MEMBER BROWN: No, I didn't say that. I 21 said we need to know what the chapter -- when are we 22 going to get the chapters available for our reviews, 23 then we need to figure out which of the chapters at 24 that point are going to be critical ones for the focus 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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50 areas.
1 But until we know what's in the chapters, 2
we won't know where, how they're integrated. That's 3
my only thought. So the chapters, to me, have to come 4
first. We need to know when we're going to get them 5
and particularly with the safety, SHINE's safety 6
analysis report.
7 You know, when are they going to have 8
available the ones they want us to look at and then 9
when's the SER going to be available, because we need 10 to look at the SER. There's no sense in spinning your 11 wheels on something if the staff has already taken 12 care of it.
13 The focus areas are a good follow-up like 14 we did on NuScale at the end, but we'd done all the 15 chapters at that point, fundamentally, and that's what 16 led us to what some of the focus areas were.
17 MEMBER SUNSERI: And we've already looked 18 at this once though, right, like maybe five years ago 19 we did. This is not our first strike at it.
20 MEMBER REMPE: But it may have changed and 21 that's why I've been hesitant to buy into much right 22 now until we understand a bit more of how much things 23 have changed and how much data support what's changed.
24 MEMBER BROWN: Chapter 7 was 51 pages last 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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51 time. This new one is 215. It's far more extensive.
1 CHAIR BALLINGER: Well, you know, again, 2
I keep saying this, but I think this will shake itself 3
out starting in November and certainly by the December 4
P&P meeting. That would be the hope.
5 MEMBER BROWN: All right. Well, I'd just, 6
all I'd do is be careful. I think we ought to get our 7
chapters in line first. If there's some chapters we 8
don't even want to look at we can figure that out at 9
that time if you want to, but we certainly need to 10 look at the chapters and know what's in them first 11 before we categorize what focus areas are going to be 12 the critical ones.
13 Unless something's obvious like how the 14 target solution vessel going to be protected, you 15 know, is there something fancy about that. I'll quit 16 now.
17 CHAIR BALLINGER: Okay, other comments?
18 Okay, I think we should try to make sure 19 that the line is open. Is it open?
20 OPERATOR: The bridge line is open.
21 CHAIR BALLINGER: Ah, thank you. Are 22 there any members of the public that would like to 23 make a comment? Please give your name and make your 24 comment.
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52 Well, hearing none, we should probably 1
close the line. There weren't any people that wanted 2
to make a comment to start with so I think we're okay.
3 Then we don't need a closed session.
4 Chris has been taking notes. We'll get the 5
transcript. Any input from the members would be 6
greatly appreciated. I'm surprised that people all 7
haven't volunteered for Chapter 15, but who knows.
8 And so having said that, unless, Matt, do 9
you have any comments that you would like to make?
10 MEMBER SUNSERI: Well, I just would 11 reiterate, I thank you for pulling this together.
12 That gives us a chance to early, have some early input 13 on the course of this review and signal to staff, you 14 know, what are needs are, so I think it'll make the 15 November for first formal subcommittee review more 16 effective, so thank you all to everybody who put this 17 together.
18 CHAIR BALLINGER: Okay.
19 MEMBER BROWN: Be prepared at the November 20 meeting to try to address how we're going to address 21 this, individual chapters. We ought to get that 22 organization settled then based on what the staff can 23 tell us.
24 CHAIR BALLINGER: That would be at least 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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53 one of the goals.
1 MEMBER BROWN: Okay.
2 MEMBER REMPE: And hopefully we'll get that 3
list of other documents before November's meeting.
4 CHAIR BALLINGER: November's right around 5
the corner.
6 MEMBER REMPE: That's right. It's just a 7
list of titles just to understand the scope of 8
everything.
9 CHAIR BALLINGER: Yeah. Okay, well --
10 MEMBER REMPE: Thank you.
11 CHAIR BALLINGER: -- that's not something 12 that we can do with it. That's something that Steve 13 will have to work on with Chris.
14 MR. LYNCH: Understood.
15 MEMBER REMPE: Thank you.
16 CHAIR BALLINGER: Okay. I think we are 17 done. Thank you all for participating. And again, we 18 hope that we can come up with a revised version of 19 this after November and then get off and running in 20 December. So without that I think this meeting is 21 closed. Thank you.
22 MEMBER REMPE: Thank you.
23 (Whereupon, the above-entitled matter went 24 off the record at 3:06 p.m.)
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SHINE Review Thoughts Ronald Ballinger
2 Goals
- Update on Status of Staff Review
- Settle on Review Format
- Potential Focus Areas
- Potential Chapter Reviewers
- Potential Focus Area Reviewer(s)
Review Schedule (As of August 2020) 3 Milestone Est. Completion Date Actual Completion Date Status Acceptance and Docketing of Application October 2019 October 2019 Complete ACRS Subcommittee Planning Meeting October 22, 2020 TBD Pending ACRS Subcommittee Meeting November 4, 2020 TBD Pending Publication of Draft EIS Supplement December 2020 TBD Pending ACRS Subcommittee Meeting January 2021 TBD Pending ACRS Subcommittee Meeting February 2021 TBD Pending ACRS Subcommittee Meeting June 2021 TBD Pending Publication of Final EIS Supplement July 2021 TBD Pending Draft Safety Evaluation Complete July 2021 TBD Pending ACRS Full Committee Meeting September 2021 TBD Pending Final Safety Evaluation Report Complete September 2021 TBD Pending Final Determination on Issuance of Operating License October 2021 TBD Pending
Staff Review Path 4
Level 1: No clarification questions needed, information readily available, direct preparation of requests for additional information (RAIs)
Level 2: Initial clarification questions needed, reference documents requested, and public meetings needed prior to developing RAIs Level 3: Fundamental scoping questions, clarification questions, public meetings, audits, and application supplements needed prior to developing RAIs
Current Staff Technical Focus
- Instrumentation and Control
- Accident Analysis
- Security Planning
- Human Factors
- Technical Specifications 5
From: REPORT ON THE SAFETY ASPECTS OF THE CONSTRUCTION PERMIT APPLICATION FOR SHINE MEDICAL TECHNOLOGIES, INC.
MEDICAL ISOTOPE PRODUCTION FACILITY, ACRS Letter October 15, 2015 6
The staff identified a number of issues where further technical and design information must be supplied in the Final Safety Analysis Report (FSAR) and where the applicant identifies necessary research and development. These issues are documented in Appendix A to the SER. In some cases the staff has proposed construction permit conditions, which must be resolved before construction is completed. They also identified regulatory commitments that must be addressed in the FSAR.
We reviewed important safety aspects of the SHINE application, including the site characteristics; the design of structures, systems, and components; radiation protection and waste management; conduct of operations and technical specifications; and accident analysis. We found the state of the PSAR adequate for the construction permit. Looking ahead to SHINEs future application for an operating license, we had questions related to criticality control and margin, adequacy of confinement, systems that provide support to safety-related systems, partial losses of electrical power, hydrogen generation and control, underwater maintenance issues, and possible red oil and acetohydroxamic acid reactions1. When the FSAR is submitted, assumptions should be justified and margins or uncertainties should be identified and quantified or bounded.
Proposed Review Paths 7
Member Chapter Review No Member Letter Report-FC SC Meeting Member Letter Report-FC Issues?
Issues?
No Yes FC Meeting FC Letter Focused Area Review Team Review Issues?
No Team Report-FC Yes SC Meeting No Issues?
Team Report Yes FC Meeting FC Report Yes Final Letter Member Review
Review Chapters/Areas 8
Key References 9
NUREG-2189, Safety Evaluation Report Related to SHINE Medical Technologies, Inc. Construction Permit Application for a Medical Radioisotope Production Facility, Docket Number 50-608, August, 2016 Report on the Safety Aspects of the Construction Permit Application for SHINE Medical Technologies, Inc. Medical Isotope Production Facility, ACRS Letter October 15, 2015 ACRS SharePoint site.