ML20247B701
| ML20247B701 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 04/13/1989 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8905240206 | |
| Download: ML20247B701 (65) | |
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(3 DISCLAIMER This is an unofficial transcript of a meeting of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission held on April 13, 1989, in the Commission's office at One White Flinb North, Rockville, Maryland.
The meeting was open to public attendance and observation.
This transcript has not been reviewed, corrected or edited, and it may contain inaccuracies.
The transcript is intended solely for general
( e.
k.
informational purposes.
As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of the formal or informal record of decision of the matters discussed.
Expressions of opinion in this transcript do not necessarily reflect final determination or beliefs.
No pleading or other paper may be filed with the Commission in any proceeding as the result of, or o
addressed to, any statement or argument contained herein, except as the Commission may authorize.
s.
HEAL R. GROSS COURT RE9oRTERE AND TRANSCRIBER 5 1323 rho 0EJSLAND AVENUE N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.
20005 (202) 232-6600
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1 UllITED STATES OF AMERICA-2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
4 BRIEFI!1G 011 STATUS OF IMPLEMENTATION OF 5
SEVERE ACCIDENT MASTER INTEGRATION PLAN 6
7 PUBLIC MEETING 8
9 Nuclear Regulatory: Commission 10 One White Flint North 11 Rockville, Maryland 12 13 Thursday, April 13, 1989 14 i
.15 The Commission met in open session, pursuant to 16 notice, at 9:30 a.m.,
the Honorable LANDO W.
- ZECH, JR.,
17 Chairman of the commission. presiding.
1 18 19 COMMISSIONERS PRESENT:
20 LANDO W.
- ZECH, JR., Chairman of the Commission 21 THOMAS M. ROBERTS, Member of the Commission 22 KENNETH C.
ROGERS, Member of the Commission L
23 JAMES R.
CURTISS, Member of the Commission 24 l
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'25 26 (202)234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS & COMPANY, INC. (202)232-6600 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.,
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2 1
STAFF AND PRESENTERS SEATED AT THE COMMISSION TABLE:
k 2
SAMUEL J.
CHILE, Secretary i
3 WIILIAM C.
PARLER, General Counsel 4
VICTOR STELLO.
JR..
Executive Director for Operations 5
TOM MURLEY. URR 6
ERIC BECKJORD, Director, Office of Research 7
THEMIS SPEIS. RES S
9 10 11 12
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13 14 15 36 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (202)234-4433 NEAL R.
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l-6 E E g C E E D I fl G S
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(9:33 a n.'
2
~ " A I F M A 'i CECH.
Good morning, ladies and 4
c e rc i e r.e n
~
Thic merning, the Commission will be briefed by r'-
177 0 ^ffice of Research and the Office of Iluelear 7sartcr :+ g u i c i on on -ha status cf implementation of th*-
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T n t e a r a r i n t. Fiar for Cic.are of Severe Accident Issues.
The cortission was briefed by the staff on the
". T aster p]ar: for integrating all severe accident issues, on 11 June 1988 Following that meeting, the Commission
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r-qu-srF5 today's progress report on the iraplementation o f
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l' th-Mastrr Integration Plan.
14 The Integration Plan is a description of all 15 s e v e-r e accident programs currently being undertaken by the 36 2c-rission.
It describes how the agency will reach 17 closure on these programs, and describes the inter-I F, relationship anong the various programs.
19 The Integration Plan for Closure of Severe 20 Arcidant Issues was developed primarily to assure 21 consistency between programs, and consistency with 22 Corrission policy and strategic goals.
23 The Commission is interested in hearing how 24 conc.stency between programs is maintained in the
?5 implementation of this plan.
(2271 34-4433 IJEAL P. GROSS & COMP AliY, I11C. (202)232-6600 1323 FHOpE ISLATID AVEiUE. !!. W.
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1 This is an.information briefing this morning.
2 and no Commission vote is planned on this issue today.
It l'
.3
.is my understanding' that copies of the staff's Vu-Graphs 4
are available at the entrance to the meeting'roon.
5 Do any of my f ellow ~ Commissioners have any 6
comments they wish before we begin?
1
-7 (No response.)
l l
8 All right.
Mr. Stello, you may proceed.
9 MR. STELLO:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would l
10 like to start with an overview of the plan -- emphasizing.
and reminding the 11 that's what it is, is a plan 12 Commission that each of the issues that are in there which
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13 will require the Commission to decide to take a position 14 on something, that we have been bringing those issues, 15 one-by-one, to the Commission, and I would just summarize 16 very quickly.
17 For example, we have the IPE program.
We 18 brought that before the Commission.
The Commission gave 19 its guidance and policy, made a decision, and we're on the 20 way.
21 We came with the Accident Management Program.
22 The Commission reviewed it, gave us the guidance, and now 23 we were again on our way.
24 You have before you -- the Commission is 25 considering the MARK I program which is, again, an element (202)234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS & COMPANY, INC. (202)232-6600 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.,
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5 1-of this-that' the Commission - eventually will make a 2
decision and give us the guidance for implementing that
-3 part of the program.
4 This afternoon, you will'~ review the safety goal 5
implementation policy and, hopefully, following that 6
meeting you will,
- again, provide the. staf f with the 7
Commission's' decision and the guidance.
8 And you will notice that all of these, in fact, 9
were what we were trying to do when we put the integration 10 plan together, to'try to show you the inter-relationship 11 and making sure that we had consistency with these 12 programs.
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13 We feel comfortable that the thrust and the 14 purpose of putting. together this particular plan is, in 15 fact, being implemented, and I'm pleased and delighted 16 that we, in fact, have the plan and we are, indeed, 17 following it, and what we will do this afternoon, Eric 18 Beckjord -- or this morning -- will give you the status of 19 where we are, but there is no need, unless the Commission 20 wishes in some way to make a major change to that plan, 21 for any further decisions by the Commission because we 22 will continue to bring each of these pieces to you as they 23 are finished.
24 We have Eric with me today, on my right and, of 25 course, Dr. Murley on my left, and Themis Speis on Eric's (202)234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS & COMPANY, INC. (202)232-6600 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.,
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-1 irrediate right, and I'll have Eric go through the b
2 briefing, and we're prepared to answer any questions you 3
night have.
Eric?
4 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
Thank you very much.
Mr.
5 Beckjord, you may begin.
6 MR. BECKJORD:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7 May I have the first Vu-Graph, please.
(Slide) 8 These are the topics I will speak to in the presentation.
9 They are'the elements of the Integration Plan for Closure Severe Accident Issues that this 10 of Severe Accidents 11 office presented to you on June 1st of last year, and the
-12 Commission paper was dated May 25th of 1988, and that is 13 SECY-88-147.
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14 Closure of severe accident issues and related 15 research has been, and remains, one of the top priority 16 activities in the Office of Research, and has been since 17 I've been here.
i 18 I'm pleased to report progress on all of the 19 aspects of this program during the past year.
The 20 activities which have been underway are shown on the next 21-few Vu-Graphs.
22 If I could have the second, please.
(Slide) 23 This and the next Vu-Graph. list the events and the dates 24 of the important actions.
The purpose of the Severe
.(
25 Accident Integration Plan was, and is, to set forth the
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essential strategy for resolution of severe accident 2
- issues, and that plan is consistent with, and for the 3
purpose of, carrying out the Commission's Severe Accident 4
Policy Statement of August 5th, 1985.
5 There are six elements in the plan.
I'm going 6
to say more about them in a minute, in several Vu-Graphs 7
ahead.
8 As a result of the staff requirements memorandum 9
on the plan -- that was June 24th of last year -- we have 10 established a senior group to review and coordinate the 11 severe accident program in the several offices that are 12 involved in it.
13 This group has met a number of times, and is 14 providing coordination.
They issued a schedule, which I 15 believe you have, dated February 24th of thfa year.
It's 16 a detailed schedule of all of the activities.
17 At the bottom line of this appears the IPE 18 program, mentioning the briefing in August of last year.
19 If I could have the third, please.
(Slide)
Following 20 that, the Commission approved the IPE generic letter in 21 October, and we sent it out in November.
22 We held a workshop in Fort Worth, with industry 23 representatives, t discuss the generic letter and to get 24 their comments.
I'm going to talk more about that in a
~
25 few minutes.
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This Vu-Graph shows the other important related b
2 events.
The MARK I Containment Performance Improvements, 3
which was presented to you in January; the Accident 4
Management Program also in January, and the first briefing 5
on Severe Accident Risk, NUREG-1150, which we presented on 6
+ ie 15th of March, and the briefing on the complete 7
revised report scheduled to be presented to you on the 3rd 8
of May.
9 The Implementation of the Safety Goal Policy, as l
I 10 Mr. Stello said, comes up this afternoon.
I wasn't going 11 to say anymore about that because it will be covered in 12 detail then.
13
- And, finally, the last item on this is the
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14 Severe Accident Research Plan, the revised SARP.
We've 15 sent the paper describing that program up, and the 16 briefing for you is scheduled on the 2nd of May.
17 If I could have the fourth, please.
(Slide) 18 This is the schematic diagram of the Severe Accident 19 Program.
I think you've seen this a number of times 20 before.
The six key elements of the program are shown on 21 the schematic.
22 At the top of the diagram, upper left, is the 23 improved plant operations.
This is actually the third 24 item mentioned in the Integration Plan, and it's led by
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25 NRR.
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1 At the left, center is the IPE block -- that's 2
the fir st item mentioned in the Integration Plan -- and 3
its purpose is to disclose vulnerabilities in individual 4
plants.
5 When the individual plant examination program is 6
completed, the probability of undiscovered problems that 7
could initiate or aggravate an accident in a plant, will 8
be greatly reduced, and'there will then be high confidence 9
in improved safety performance for each plant
-- that is 10 to say, assuring you that performance is uniformly high 11 among all plants.
Of course, the data from the improved 32 plant operations shows that as a group, taking them all 13
- together, the average performance has been improving 14 markedly over the five years.
15 Carrying out the IPE is the responsibility of 16 the plant owner and licensee.
He knows his plant best, 17 and he is responding to the requirements which the NRC has 18 established and, of course, the NRC staff will review 19 these reports when they are completed.
20 The containment performance block is underneath 21 the IPE block, and the MARK I analysis, which is the 22 second item mentioned in the Integration Plan, is at the 23 left-hand side of that box.
The other containments not 24 yet complete are on the right.
25 The Containment Performance Improvement approach (202)234-4433 NEAL R.
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1 is very different from the IPE.
It's the study of
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.2
. performance of generic containment types.
The NRC staff 3
is doing a - s tudy,
and the -- is doing all of-these 4
studies, and the utility licensees will respond to the 5
decisions which you, the Commission, make after you have 6
considered the recommendations on each type.
no, I'm still on this 7
If I could have the 8
slide.
Turning to the CPI, again, that's very important 9
because it's a generic approach, and it focuses on the 10 performance of the containment types.
It is not likely 11
.that the IPE will disclose any generic problems because of 12 the fact that each licensee will focus separately on his 13 plant.
{
14 The IPE will assure that the systems provided in 15 the individual plant will perform according to design 16
-requirements.
And I think that the difference between the 17 CPI -- this difference between the CPI and the IPE is very 18 important, and taking the two programs together, they form 19 a very robust pair, which I think has a very high 20 likelihood of success in this whole area.
21
- Now, the ACRS has recommended to you 22 incorporation of the MARK I containment questions in the 23 IPE program.
There are several consequences of that 24 recommendation that I want to point out.
. (
25 The first is that the process of evaluation will (202)234-4433 NEAL R.
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he c+ a n g M fre-the one that I have outlined. and this
^
process
's the one in which the IIRC is taking the lead on
+i-a-nuri-requirements, and the -- as I said, the 4
in? vidual ovners are taking the lead on the IPE.
5 The findings that would come out at the end of if the process was changed and we put 6
the IFE process
'7 MAFT I into the IPE, the findings would come out perhaps E
' w r.
or thr+e years later and then the tiRC would have to 9
pur the picture tog +ther, attempting -- you know, looking 1'
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=> c h one. plant-by-plant.
~1 So. whr.t wa would wind up doing, at that time, I 12 think a generic look. but it would not be now.
It would.
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'3 h-several years from now.
~4 COMMISSIGtIER CURTISS :
Are you saying that if we 15 c or bi ne the CFI and the IFE program, would delay the IFE 16 program two to three years beyond what it would otherwise 17 entail?
yes, sir, that's 18 MR. BECEJORD:
Yes, that is 39 what I'm saying.
20 COMMTSSIO!JER ROBERTS:
I think that's highly 21 arguable.
22 MR. BECKJORD:
Well, I think it's 23 COMMISSIO1JER ROBERTS:
I would disagree.
Keep 24 goir:g.
25 MP. BECKJORD:
It's a consequence of how we've (2 r' 2 34-44 33 IIEAL P. GROSS & COMPA!IY, I1JC. (202)232-6600 2373 FMODE ISLAT7D AVETIUE, 17. W., WA SHI1JGTO17, D.C.
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set it up.
It's the process that I'm talking about.
I
(
2 think that if the integration of generic issues on these 3
- plants, coming at the end of the IPE process, would 4
probably lead to a delay of at least three years, and 5
maybe as long as five.
6 DR. SPEIS:
On the generic improvements.
7 MR. BECKJORD:
On the generic improvements, yes.
8 There's a second point that I wanted to make, is that the 9
strategy and plan shown on this schematic would no longer 10 apply, in a different way of carrying out the process, to 11 the severe accident resolution as we've described it here, 12 and the whole approach would have to be rethought, I 13 think.
I'm talking about not only the IPE and the CPI, 14 but the Severe Accident Research Program.
15 Let me turn then to the Severe Accident 16 Research, which is element number four in the Integration 1
17 Plan.
That is under the Containment Performance 18 Improvement block, and the Research Program supports the 19 IPE, the CPI and the Accident Management Program, and it 20 supports them in the near-term on the resolution of the 21 issues, but I would expect that there will continue to be 22 a long-term research program for confirmatory purposes, 23 after these issues are resolved.
24 The next point is the fifth one in the
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25 Integration Plan, and it's External Events, and that is (202)234-4433 NEAL R.
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'l identifying. the requirements for the External Event' IPE 2
Program.
That's shown within the IPE block here as--
3 it's referred to as External Hazards on this -- in the box 4
at the left, center.
I expect that we will be ready to 5
initiate and move out on this activity at the end of this 6
year.
7 The sixth element of the plan is Accident that's at the top, right of the diagram--
8 Management 9
and this program includes the actions that NRR is 10 undertaking ~ with plant owners, to develop an accident 11 management framework for each plant, and the actions which 12 will follow to upgrade the emergency operating procedures, 13 whatever changes here are indicated.
And it also includes 14 an element of research, the purpose of which is to 15 generate some new information for confirming the technical 16 base for accident management, to make sure that it will do 17 what we think it will do.
I think the accident management 18 is an essential part of the plan.
19 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:
One quick question on 20 this schematic.
You've separated the MARK I improvements 21 in the box on the left, from the other CPI improvements.
22 The way the schematic is laid out, the MARK I improvements 23 feed into the identification of plant-specific 24 vulnerabilities.
h-25 Does this reflect a difference in the way you (202) 234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS & COMPANY, INC. (202)232-6600 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.,
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1 intend' to treat CPI fixes other than MARK I,
or is the
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2 strategy the,same?
3 MR.
BECKJORD:
The strategy is the same.
We I think it was drawn this way originally 4
could have 5
simply because-MARK I was the'first, it was the lead of 6
those.
The others are following I think we're moving 7
ahead somewhat faster on the analyses for the other 8
plants, than we originally expected -- I was going to say and it turns out that, for 9
more about that later 10 example, in the case of the MARK IIs and the MARK IIIs, 11 some of.the issues are common with MARK I issues, so there 12 is a synergy here that I think is something we can really-13 appreciate.
14 MR.
STELLO:
I think the real intent, though, the real intent was that we had suggested and the 15 was 16 Commission concurred, that we would do the MARK Is first, 17
- earliest, in order to make it clear that they were, in 18 fact, the first plants that published that.
19 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
All right.
Let's proceed, 20 please.
21 MR.
BECKJORD:
If I could have the fifth, 22 please.
(Slide)
This Vu-Graph and the next one give more 23 detail on the independent plant examination.
The 24 important points here are that we are proceeding on 25 schedule, to start the IPE clock running in June.
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15 Ur 've met. ac I said already, with the utilit; n rresentatives in Fcrt Ucrth.
There were more than 300
)'
v-prec entativ c of industry, mostly utilities, but also l
4 cencultants, some hopeful consultants, and a few overseas 5
cbservers.
6 The meeting was, I think, very successful in i
7 achieving its objectives and it, frankly, exceeded ry 4
exr+ctation.
The exchange of views during the meeting C
were very p '.c i t i v s and. at the same time, nobody pulled 10 are punches.
13 W identified the key issues between ourselves ir an6 the utility representatives at the meeting.
We've
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13 careful 1y reviewed the Fort Worth meeting transcript, and 14 we are now revising the guidance document for the IFE.
15 which is !!UREG-1335.
I expect that will be out in June.
5f May I have the sixth Vu-Graph, please.
(Slide) 17 Exarples of some of the issues that came up at the Fort 15 Ucrth neering -- and there were quite a -- there was a 19 l o r.g list of then, two to three dozen; I'm not going to go 20 through them all, but a few examples include equipment 21 qualifications.
There were questions about the 22 requirements and the criteria to be applied in the IPE.
23 There were questions about the use of source 24 terns. where the utilities expected to generate new source
?S terms.
W said no.
There were a lot of questions about (2^^17.34-4433 NEAL R.
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the estimate i r, our letter, of the effort required to
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2 carry out the IPE, and there were questions about internal 3
flooding, as to whether that should be in the IPE or in 4
the External Event Program.
5 Without going into the details of
- these, 6
Research Office is answering these points, and those 7
answers will be included in the revised 1335 document, and 8
to incorporate some additional guidance as well.
9 As I said, the 1335 will be issued in June, and 10 the clock will start for the IPE.
Il DR. MURLEY:
Eric, could I make a point there?
12 MR. BECKJORD:
Yes.
13 DR. MURLEY:
We're on the path that this would 14 be issued in June, however, if we have to revise the 15 guidance on how they do containment studies, it could well 16 be delayed, and at least our staff has not evaluated how 17 we would even have to revise the guidance, but it clearly 18
-- if we throw the MARK I and the containment evaluations 19 into IPE, it's different from the guidance we've given 20 them up till now.
21 MR. BECKJORD:
Yes, I agree.
22 DR. MURLEY:
And I can't estimate what the delay 23 would be but, clearly, there would be some because we 24 would have to rethink it, b'
25 MR.
BECKJORD:
The last item on this is the (202)234-4433 NEAL R.
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Accident Management Program, if I could' turn to the next 2
~~
3 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:
One quick question on 4
that previous chart with the Texas conference.
Was there 1
5 a consensus on the schedule that the staff laid out in the 6
initial letter, to complete it in three years, or what 7
kind of feedback did we get on that issue?
8 MR.
BECKJORD:
I wasn't there when that was 9
discussed.
Do you have --
10 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:
Is our estimate of three 13 years to complete the IPE process still pretty sound?
12 DR.
SPEIS:
I think for the majority of the 13 utilities, it is sound, yes.
There's always the p.
you know, some utilities have-more 14 experience factor 15 experience in this business, and they will be able to do 16 this sooner than others.
So, some of them will take a 17 little bit longer, but the letter says that those factors 18 will be taken into account and appropriate negotiations 19 will --
20 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
On the IPE workshop, could you 21 talk to us just a little bit more about that?
What kind 22 of comments were received at that IPE workshop?
23 MR.
BECKJORD:
I was there for part of the l
l 24 meeting, but I'd ask Dr. Speis to answer your question.
25 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
Fine.
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DR.
SPEIS:
- Well,
'a number of issues were
[
2 raised, maybe 50 or 70, some of them more important than 3
n r.h e r s.
One of' them was, of course, our estimate of the 4
resources that it will take to perform the IPE.
5 If you recall, we had said ' that it will take
'6 about 45 manyears.
The industry's comments. indicated that 7-we were off by a factor of 2,
a qualitative factor of 2.
8 I think, in retrospect, our number is probably okay for 9
the utilities that have had experience with PRAs, but 10 probably is an underestimate for the ' utilities with no-11 experience in PRA.
So, that took some discussion.
12 Other issues that were raised were external 13 events; as Mr. Beckjord said already, accident management 14 procedures, how you apply the 5059 to it; the question of 15 environmental qualifications, you know.
We have a rule 16 which applies for design basis conditions, and they want 17 to make sure that in the severe accident area --
18 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
There wasn't disagreement on the 19 value of the IPE --
20 DR. SPEIS:
No, there was no disagreement.
l but it was disagreement on 21 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
l l
22 the length of time it would take, is that about --
23 DR.
SPEIS:
There was no disagreement on the l
24 value.
I think there is consensus that it is one of the 25 best methods to identify plant-specific vulnerabilities, (202)234-4433 NEAL R.
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y 19 1
identify your plant, its - capabilities, and then f ashion
.h 2
procedures to improve its operation and its safety.
3 Also, Eric mentioned issues like what type ~ of 4
analysis is expected you
- know, source
- term, 5
phenomenological issues, containment loads, structural.
and in this area, we said that the ' analysis 6
response 7
would be very minimal because that type of analysisLwill 8
be done in the generic part-of the containment that'we 9
talked about, the MARK I and the other containments.
10 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
All right.
- Fine, 11 DR.
SPEIS:
So, the back end of the IPE-will 12 focus mostly on systems, rather than phenomenological
~13 issues, which will be handled in the CPI program.
14 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
All right.
Thank you.
15 MR. BECKJORD:
I would just add,'what I heard 16 from the people there was that the utilities want to move 17 out on this-IPE.
They are very anxious to move on that.
18 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
All right.
Thank you.
Let's 19 proceed.
20 MR.
BECKJORD:
If I could have the next Vu-21 Graph.
(Slide)
This summarizes the status of the 22 containment performance generic MARK I recommendations.
23 As stated to you in the January 26 presentation, the 24 recommended improvements for performance are not major
/-
25 changes but, as I said earlier, they are integrated and (202)234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS & COMPANY, INC. (202)232-6600 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.,
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O
-o-20 1
complementary to each other, and they improve both
.(
2 prevention and mitigation, and they will. improve defense 3
'in-depth for those plants.
4 If I could move on to the eighth Vu-Graph.
5 (Slide)
On the other containment performance improvements 6
for the other types, the studies are underway.
We will 7
hold workshops on these in the summer.
It will, I think,-
8 be difficult to discuss all of the remaining types in one 9
workshop, so I think right now it looks like two would be 10 a more practical approach.
We'll make a decision on that 11 finally, in May.
12 We will present the preliminary -- I. expect that 13 we will have ready to present to you the preliminary 14 conclusions on the remaining generic containment studies,
. 15 by the end of this year.
16 If I could move on to-the ninth.
(Slide)
This this chart regards the external event 17 is regarding 18 effort.
19 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
You're on slide number 10, are 20 you not?
21 MR. BECKJORD:
I should be on number 9.
22 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
All right.
Mine says 10, but go 23 ahead.
24 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
Just before you leave that 25 containment question on MARK Is, there's at least one (202)234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS & COMPANY, INC. (202)232-6600 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.,
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E 4 ^
21 1
plant that has installed certain improvements -- I'm not 2
clear on exactly what the state of affairs of that 3
installation is -- and others that have very serious--
4 some.of those under very serious consideration.
5 Is anybody being held up now, from making a 6
final decision on whether it's wise to implement those 7
improvements, particularly so on this one, as s result of 8
our own incomplete status on MARK I containments?
9 DR. MURLEY:
Pilgrim is complete.
They've done 10 all the --
11 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
They've really implemented 12 it, though, fully?
13 DR. MURLEY:
Yes.
l 14 COMMISSIONER, ROGERS:
They have?
15 DR. MURLEY:
Yes.
They have.
16 COMMISSIONER ROGBRS:
Okay.
l well, quite 17 DR. HURLEY:
Others are waiting 18 frankly, I think they're waiting to see what the NRC does, 19 with regard to the recommended course of action.
20 Some plants have done some aspects of it, like 21 improved power supplies and that sort of thing, but they 22 are basically waiting to see what we come down and 23 require.
24 DR.
SPEIS:
For example, Vermont Yankee will 25 undertake a number of these improvements during the next (202)234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS & COMPANY, INC. (202)232-6600 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.,
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./
22 1
outage, but not.all of them.
~{
2 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
I'm just concerned about 3
someone who has something in the worko,. rather than
~
4 someone who hasn ' t done anything, whether it's a delay 5
occasioned by our not completing.our part of the program.
6 MR. STELLO:
I would think that, ' instinctively, c
7 the decisionmakers are sitting back, recognizing that the-8 agency is trying to make a decision and, to the extent 9
that they're dealing with it, they must -- instinctively, 10 I would feel they would have to wait and say, " Hey, let's 11 hold off and wait and see what. happens, before we move 12 forward".
I would think, instinctively, that has got to 13
- go on for those that are in the process now, although I 14 can't give you a specific example.
15 DR.
MURLEY:
That's my sense of things, too, 16 kind of pausing.
17 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
All right.
Let's proceed.
18 MR.
BECKJORD:
If I could have the ninth Vu-19 Graph, please, on the external events.
(Slide)
We did 20 not include the external events consideration in the 21 Independent Plant Examination generic letter because, when 22 that letter was ready to go out, we were still working on 23 defining a clear scope and generating the requirements.
24 These tests will be done by the end of this year.
(.
25 If I could go on to the tenth then -- (slide)--
(202)234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS & COMPANY, INC. (202)232-6600 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.,
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some more on external events.
We have an' External Event
{ ~_
2 S t. e e r i n g Group which works across the offices'.
It's 3
chaired'by Dr. Shao, in NRR, and has membership from the 4
several
- offices, and that's the place where the 5
recommendations in this area are being considered, and 6
they will recommend what should be included in the 7
external event IPE.
8 It appears now' that the seismic margins.
t 9
approach, which I think you've heard about, continues to-10 look good for the seismic events.
la CHAIRMAN ZECH:
You need the next slide.
12 MR. BECKJORD:
I should be on the tenth, yes--
13 number ten -- (slide) -- yes.
14 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
Okay.
15 MR.
BECKJORD:
I was going to say something 16 about fire.
I had commented on the seismic part.
We've 17 been thinking a lot about the question of evaluating 18 fires, and we decided that we're going to go ahead and 19 develop a simplified method for evaluating fire hazards.
20 We've had a very interesting proposal that's been made in 21 that regard, and we've started the work on that.
22 I believe that this can be done over the next 23 six months, to develop a simplified fire evaluation 24 method, and so we should have that ready by the end of l
25 this year.
l l
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(
24 i
Now, just a note on that.
We will have-done our.
{
2 work on-it, bu t ' I think that that may take some extra 3
- time, to bring the utility representatives in ' on that 4
proposed fire evaluation approach.
I don't know exactly 5
how long that will take, but I do feel that looking at the 6
whole schedule, that this simplified method will make it 7
possible to move out faster when we've established it.
8 So, taking the whole thing together, I think we'll still 9
get the job done sooner than we would otherwise.
10 Also, I believe that the approaches that we're 11 taking here will get the job done, and they will not have 12 the result of causing the IPEs themselves to be redone.
13 The fact is, what I?m saying is that the separation of the 14 internal events and the external events is not, obviously, 15 the best approach.
If we could have done them together, 16 we would, but doing them the way they are being done, I 17 don't think it will cause the internal events IPE to be 18 redone for any plant.
19 Accident Management is on the lith page.
20 (Slide)
We presented the coordinated plan for both the 21 regulatory activities and the supporting research to you 22 on January 24th.
We received the staff requirements memo, 23 and we are responding to that.
24 There were four items in the SRM.
First was the
-25 integration of accident management into the IPE program.
.(202)234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS & COMPANY, INC. (202)232-6600 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.,
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25 3
That's done, and it's underway.
{
2 Second point, NRR and Research have met with 3
NUMARC and their EPRI people who are working with them on 4
accident management, and we've met to establish 5
communication on developmental activities and the research 6
relating to accident management.
7 We're going to continue this communication, and 8
we're going to issue the information which we were 9
directed to do in the SRM.
We are going to put that 10 information on accident management out in a series of 11 generic letters, and those will be the way that we would 12 communicate what we think needs to be done on emergency 13 operating procedures, to the industry.
We will review all 14 of this information with the ACRS.
35 If I could have the 12th, please.
(Slide)
The 16 third requirement, we will review accident management 17 programs with the Commission, before they are implemented 18 with licensees.
Anu completed the IPE 12 program, or integrated it within the IPE program
-I 13 guess my question is, how would the analytical approach 14 that we're using now in the IPE program, differ on 15 containment issues?
let's talk about 16 DR. SPEIS:
Okay.
Let me 17.
delay because it's part of it.
When we talk about a 18 delay, we're not talking about delay of two to three years 19 in the IPE, we're talking about delay in implementing 20 generic improvements of containment performance.
So, 21 that's a little bit different than delaying the IPE.
22 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:
No, I understand that.
23 If you postpone the CPI fixes for MARK I until after the 24 IPE program, and if the IPE program is three years off 25 from June, or whenever the revised letter goes out, you'll (202)234-4433 NEAL R.
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35 1
have a three-year delay in the imposition of the MARK I
(-
2 fix.
3 My question is, if you do that, will there be a 4
delay in completion of the IPE program?
5 DR.
SPEIS:
Okay.
Let's come up to that 6
question.
Right now, the IPE addresses two parts.
The 7
likelihood of core damage -- okay, the systems, the 8
prevention side, as well as the mitigation side, but the 9
instigation side is very limited in scope because the large 10 part of the scope dealing with the mitigation will be 11 handled in the Containment Performance Improvements part, 12 okay?
13 So, if we are to fold the CPI program into the 14
- IPE, then we'll have to go and revisit the containment 15 performance part of the IPE, to make sure that the things 16 that we're hoping to do in the CPI part will be done, and 17 we see some delay there, for over six months or, 18 certainly, at least it's my estimate, to revisit the 19 guidance on the back end, to make sure that the things 20 that we thought were going to be done in the CPI, will now 21 definitely have to be done in the IPE part of the program.
22 DR.
MURLEY:
The kinds of
- analyses, 23 Commissioner, that were done by the staff in the generic 24 study, they are very sophisticated analyses.
They result I
25 from years and years of experience not only the staff, but (202)234-4433 NEAL R.
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4 4
36' l
1 at the laboratories.
f;;
2 It was not intended that the utilities should
-3 duplicate that analysis.
It's detailed structural 1
4 analysis and that sor+ of thing.
If, now, we do have to 5
go back and ask them consider these generic things that 6
we have come to a conclusion on, I think it's a much more 7
sophisticated.equirement that we're laying on'them, and 8
I, for one, have to rethink the whole process if we do 9
that.
10 MR.
BECKJORD:
There's an aspect which hasn't 11
-really been mentioned yet, which is our own resources, and 12 that was a factor.
Consideration of our resources was - a 13 factor in developing the program this way.
If the two 14 approaches are put together, I think it's likely to 15 require greater resources here at the Commission in order 16 to carry it out, as well as, I think, implicit in what Tom 17
.is saying, I think greater utility resources.
So, that's 18 another consideration.
19 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:
Is it possible that the 20 IPE process as we know it today, will result in new 1-21 phenomenological information that might shed some light on 22 the CPI?
23 DR. SPEIS:
I doubt it, personally, you know.
I 24 think most of the issues -- in fact, I don't think any new 25 issues, phenomenologically, have been identified for the (202)234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS & COMPANY, INC. (202)232-6600 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.,
WASHINGTON, D.C.
20005 a
. _ = _.
+.
.37 3'
last two or-three years.
It's a kind of refinement of the
.I
'h 2
calculations.
I don't foresee any new -- but it's-3 possible, you know, we don't want to exclude it but, based 4
on our experience, I doubt it.
5 MR. BECKJORD:
Can't you say that in most cases, 6
what it will do, it's a kind of a quality assurance check 7
from a PRA point of view, to show that the -- if there are 8
'any faults in existing systems and, as a result of fixing
~9 those, _ you'd be assured that existing systems will 10 function as designed.
11 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:
One other question on 12 CPI.
As I understand the schedule, we'll have the staff's 13 recommendations on ice condensers, and the. other 14 containments, by the end of this year?
15 MR.
BECKJORD:
Yes.
I said preliminary.
We 16 presented to 'the Commission the preliminary 17 recommendations on MARK I late last fall, and it wguld be 18 analogous to that.
So, there would be another round.
The 19 final might take several months after that.
20 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:
So, we're looking at mid-i to have the kind of recommendation we 21
'90, to make the 22 had on MARK I for the specific fixes.
i 23 DR.
SPEIS:
I think we can do a little bit 24 better because we have now access to the 1150, and I think p-25 we have pretty good control of what's going on in the (202)234-4433 NEAL R.
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nthtr cen ain:ivnts, as far as what are the impor ant 46t 2
challenges in the priority of failure modes, so I think l
wt 'il play the 'eg cut.
So, I think it looks very good, a
that probabl y -- maybe a few months beyond the end of this 5
yea:
w '11 havr the final recommendations.
COMMISSIONER CURTISS:
One other quick question.
7 jorping over to the last graph on severe accidents for the 8
LiiF s.
I want tc make sure I understand the schedule here.
You will subrit the proposed approach for severe accidents
~
- ^
whFD we CJ M the $3I*E paper?
11 DT.
SPEIS:
Yes.
12 MR. STELLO:
That will be within a week or two.
(
'. 3 and that will be the first application of the new approach 14 to Part 52.
1" COMMISSIOTIER CURTISS:
Will that, based upon
~6 what w e-know now, reflect this staff generic thinking of 37 how to approach it?
18 MR.
STELLO:
Yes.
Well, the Commission asked j
19 that we would specifically look, is there something that 20 cores out of it which we believe is worthy of generic 23 ruleraking and to identify that, and we'll do that.
22 I'll give you a -- I was going to call it 23 probably combination judgment-guess at the moment.
Based 24 on what I've heard so far, it doesn't appear that we have 25 any of those that would pop up but, if we do, it may be (202)234-4433 NEAL R.
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.1 one 2
COMMISSIONER CURTISS:
And f ollowing on that, 3
shortly after that, we'd have a paper from the staff, both 4
a recommendation as to whether to proceed with rulemaking 5
or severe accident --
6 MR. STELLO:
On those issues.
7 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:
-- for LWRs.
8 MR. STELLO:
Well, we're going to do it for'the 9
ABWR first.
10 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:
I understand that.
11 MR, STELLO:
We're working the EPRI requirements 12 document, we may need to have some of that under our belt
(
13 before we can take then, is there any question of generic, 14 and we need to think about that a little bit more.
15 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:
What would the schedule 16 be for-submitting the paper on the rulemaking?
17 MR.
STELLO:
When are we getting the EPRI 18 requirements, Chapter 13?
It's probably later this year, 19 do you know?
I don't remember the date on which that 20 information is coming in.
We'll get back to you.
21 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:
Thank you.
That's all I 22 have.
23 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
Thank you.
Commissioner Rogers, 24 any questions?
25 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
No.
I'd just like to go (202)234-4433 NEAL R.
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1 back-to the external events question for a moment.
Could b
f i-2 you clarify why we had to develop a simplified methods 3
approach for including external events during analyses?
4 There have been methods found by industry, for this.
What 5
was the -issue that required us to set up a new group to 6
define a simplified method approach?
7 DR. SPEIS:
I think the setting up of the group 8
was more than -- as we said in the IPE generic letter, was 9
to determine which events should be included in the 10 examination.
We also said at that time, that we felt that 11 a number of external events went beyond the design basis, 12 and we want to make sure that we understand those external
{
13 events, so we don't have the industry repeat an evaluation 14 for those external events that went beyond the original 15 design basis.
16 Also, there was a question about integrating a 17 number of external event issues, generic issues like 846, 18 which is the equipment qualification to external events, 19 and the other issue was, let's make sure that we use the 20 best methods available.
Both the industry and NRC in 21 parallel, were developing a seismic response method which 22
'was much more simple and effective than full scope PRA for 23 external events and, in addition, I think what Eric said, 24 we are taking a look at the possibility of coming up with r-
~
25 a more simplified fire methodology, which will be as (202)234-4433 NEAL R.
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g r'
l
(
x 43 1
effective, and maybe much cheapet than using a complete w.
2 PRA for fire.
3 So, all these things were a part of the acope of l
4 this group for external events.
5 MR.
STELLO:
Commissioner Rogers, maybe I 6
misunderstood your question, but our intent.is-to, in 7
fact, use some of these methods that have been developed 8
by the industry, but those are a side door --
9 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
Kind of a side door 10 effect.
Il MR. STELLO:
Yes, and those are --
12 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
They bring this all
{
13 together.
14 MR. STELLO:
Yes, and our intent is to do that.
15 It is not different from, but it is taking that plus some 16
'other things and getting it all, so we can do it all at 17 one time.
18 COMMISSIONER ROGYhS:
All right.
Good.
Good.
19 MR. BECKJORD:
And I think that the work in the 20 seismic area is what got people to thinking about, 21 couldn't we do something like that in fire, and so that's 22 where this idea came from.
23 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
All right.
Okay.
Fine.
24 Thank you.
25 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
Are there any other comments (202)234-4433 NEAL R. GROSS & COMPANY, INC. (202)232-6600 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.,
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i 1
+
42 1
from my colleagues?
2 (No response.)
3 Well, let me thank the Commission for a very 4
informative briefing.
It certainly would appear to me 5
that the NRC staff has made significant progress towards 6
closure of the severe accident issues, and I certainly 7
commend the staff for the progress that has been made, 8
although there's still a lot of work to be done, and I 9
think in the remaining work, we must be diligent in our 10 efforts to ensure consistency in all of our NRC programs.
11 We are addressing a number of very important 12 issues here, and we are trying to keep them integrated, 13 and I think in so doing, it's awfully important that we a
14 address these
- issues, recognizing the threat of 15 consistency that must run through all of them.
It's 16 apparent to me that you're doing that, and I just 17 encourage you to continue.
18 Also, I think it's important to emphasize the 19 irportance of the schedule that we're trying to keep here, 20 and some of the dates you've given us, I think, are 21 important.
On the other hand, I think we should 22 particularly keep in mind the implementation of quality 23 resolutions of these issues.
To me, that's of primary 24 importance.
I think you're doing that, too.
25 I don't think we should hurry into these things (202)234-4433 NEAL R.
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that are. going to have generic and significant impacts, 2
but I do feel that we should adhere to some kind of a 3
schedule th'at disciplines our actions, and I think we're 4
doing that also, but I emphasize the importance of the 5
quality of the work you're doing.
6 I think it's important that the Commission be 7
kept informed of the status of your implementation of 8
these severe accident integration plans, and I would 9
suggest that we need to be informed at least on a 10 quarterly basis, and perhaps with an information paper you 11 can keep us informed so that we'll have something to look 12 at in that regard.
i 13 We'll have other briefings, of course, but I
{
14 think a paper that would kind of keep the Commission 15 current as to the number of issues we're discussing and 16 that could summarize the status of this program would be l
17 very useful.
So, I would ask you to do that for us, 18 please.
19 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
Excuse me.
20 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
Yes.
21 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
I wonder if some kind of a 22 matrix of a calendar, with all these things on it, would i
23 give us an overall picture of where these --
l l
24 MR. STELLO:
I might suggest, Mr. Chairman, at 25 the pace these things move, perhaps it might be more (202)234-4433 NEAL R.
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44 us-ful re try it twice a year first.
I don't know that 2
thm 're -oving on a basis fast enough to do it gaarterly, 3
har we'll try one and go from there.
4 CHATPMAff ZECH:
Why don't you put one together 5
for uc and --
6 MR STELLO:
And then we can seehow fast things 7
chanc.
8 CHAIRMAli ZECH:
I think perhaps twice a year 9
would be sufficient, but in the first one you present to 10 us why don't you give us a recommendation as to the --
11 MF. STELLO:
Yes, we will.
12 CHAIEMATI CECH:
-- as to the timeliness you
.l 13 think would be appropriate.
I would say at least twice a 14 year, but perhaps more often.
You take a look at it as 15 you put it together for us, if you would.
16 MF. STELLO:
Okay.
17 C H AIRIIAll "ECH:
Are there any other comments 18 from my fellow Commissioners?
19 (lio response.)
20 If not, thank you very much for an excellent 21 briefing.
We stand adjourned.
22 (Whereupon, at 10:35 a.m.,
the meeting was 23 adjourned.)
24 Ia _
25 (202)234-4433 17EAL R.
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([
CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER This is to certify that the attached events of a meeting of the United States' Nuclear Regulatory Commission entitled:
TITLE OF MEETING: BRIEFING ON STATUS OF IMPLEMENTATION OF SEVERE ACCIDENT MASTER INTEGRATION PLAN PLACE OF MEETING: ROCKVILLE, MARYLAND DATE OF MEETING: APRIL 13, 1989 were transcribed by me. I further certify that said transcription is accurote and complete, to the best of my ability, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing events.
0 2m v
vr
(
Reporter's name:
Phyllis Young
/
HEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTER $ AND TRANSCRIBER $
1333 RMODE IstAND AVfMUE, N.W.
(202) 234-4433 WASHMOTON, D.C. 30005 (202) 232-6800
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c TRANSMITTAL TO:
Document Control Desk, 016 Phillips ADVANCED COPY TO:
The Public Document Rocm d/7/k 7 DATE:
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FROM:
SECY Correspondence & Records Branch
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2 Attached are copies of a Commission meeting transcript and related meeting j;
document (s). They are being forwarded for entry on the Daily Accession List and I
j' placement in the Public Document Room. No other distribution is requested or required.
Meeting
Title:
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I Meeting Date:
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Open N Closed
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l Item Description *:
Copies 4l Advanced DCS
- 8 ll to PDR Copy U
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- 1. TRANSCRIPT 1
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- PDR is advanced one copy of each document, two of each SECY paper.
n C&R Branch files the original transcript, with attachments, without SECY f p
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