ML20246D950

From kanterella
Jump to navigation Jump to search
Transcript of 890815 Meeting in Rockville,Md Re Collegial Discussion of Items of Commissioner Interest.Pp 1-47
ML20246D950
Person / Time
Issue date: 08/15/1989
From:
NRC COMMISSION (OCM)
To:
References
REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8908280347
Download: ML20246D950 (51)
v • d • e


Text

.

W %d%%%%%%%%%d%%%%%%%fff%fffftpg,gfg,ggg; g TRANSMITTAL TO:

F Document Control Desk. 016 Phillips ADVANCED COPY TO:

The Public Document Room

[/,2JL [<f 9 DATE:

FROM:

SECY Correspondence & Records Branch 4

. Attached are copies of a Commission meeting transcript and related meeting i;

document (s). They are being forwarded for entry on the Daily Accession List and j~

placement in the Public Document Room. No other distribution is requested or required.

f Meeting

Title:

r< J_O b & b-~c_.) #7 m.A

-t.

Meeting Date:

f// T'/8 7 Open

/

Closed f.

1 7,

i:

ll Item Description *:

Copies Advanced DCS t

ll

'8 l l to PDR Copy j

i :

g i :

d

1. TRANSCRIPT 1

1 i :'

l i

l 1

l -

' I 1 -

h 2,

i 3

_1 :

m :'

3.

m:.

333:"

3 4

J.

i 3

3

=

3 l

-j :l 5.

a 3

3

\\.__.

5 -

6-

~

()f*I

  • PDR is advanced one copy of each document, two of each SECY paper.

C&R Branch files the original transcript. with attachments, without SECY

/l papers.

8908280347 890815 nre mCFR

I

- t.

o L..,.

~

l N

UNITED' STATES OF' AMERICA L

NUCLEAR 1 REGULATORY COMMIS SION-i

.a

..,..w.

~..

L-s I

((((g' COLLEGIAL DISCUSSION OF ITEMS OF COMMISSIONER INTEREST 1

l LOCatiOIll:

MCKVILLE, MAU MND 1.

h&[$'

AUGUST 15, 1989 l,

PageS:

47 PAGES 1

~

NEALR.GROSSANDCO.,INC.

l COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 F.hode Island Avenue, Northwest Washington, D.C.

20005 l

(202) 234-4433 p

i________._ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _. _ _ _ _

4 i

>F

}.

DISCLAIMER l

l This is an unofficial transcript of a meeting of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission held on August 15, 1989, in the Commission's office at One White Flint North, Rockville, Maryland.

The meeting was.

open to public attendance and observation.

This transcript has not been reviewed, corrected or edited,. and it may contain inaccuracies.

The transcript is intended solely for general informational purposes.

As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of the formal or infernal record of decision of the matters discussed.

Expressions of opinion in this transcript do not necessarily refleet final' determination or beliefs.

No pleading or other paper may be filed with the Commission in any proceeding as the result of, or addressed to, any statement or argument contained herein, except as the Commission may authorize.

NEAL R. GROSS court REpoRTEk5 AND TRANSCRIBER 5 1323 RMoDE 15 LAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 W ASM W GTo N. D.C. 20005 (202) 232 4 600

1GEETED'ETATES ~OF' AMERICA

+

f.

NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION l

COLLEGIAL DISCUSSION OF ITEMS OF COMMISSIONER INTEREST i

PUBLIC MEETING Nuclear Regulatory Commission One White Flint North Rockville, Maryland Tuesday, August 15, 1989 The Commission met in open session, pursuant to notice, at 8:30 a.m.,

Kenneth M.

Cerr, Chairman, presiding.

COMMISSIONERS PRESENT:

KENNETH M.

CARR, Chairman of the Commission THOMAS M.

ROBERTS, Commissioner RENNETH C.

ROGERS, Commissioner JAMES R.

CURTISS, Commissioner NEAL R. GROS $

CC'JRT REPORTER $ AND TRANSCRIBER $

1323 RHODE t$ LAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 232-6600 (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C.

20005 s

..-. -.. 7

'hf,

'3 f

p

?,.

y M 6=-

~

STAFF - AND - PRESElfTERS SEATED - AT THE COMMISSION-TABLE:

W n; *

..' SAMUEL ~J.'CHILK, Secretary WILLIAM C.vPARLER, General' Counsel.

1 c.

4

[,a W

W NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBER 5 1323 RHODE 15 LAND AVENUE, N.W.

~

(202) 234 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

hl ?,

1 3

1 p

E., -

.1.

P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S

+

2 8:30 a.m.

3 CHAIRMAN CARR':

I understand the'first order 4

of business is to take a. vote.

Is.that correct, Mr.

5-Secretary?

6 SECRETARY CHILK:

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

The 7

Sunshine Act requires a vote to hold this meeting on 8

.less than one week's notice, collegial discussion: of 9

items - of Commissioner interest.

May I have such a 10 vote?'

11 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Aye.

12 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

Aye.

L 13 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Aye.

1 1..

14 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:. Aye.

15-SECRETARY CHILK:

Thank you.

l 16 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Good morning,. ladies and

.17 gentlemen.

.Today's meeting is an attempt to. bring l

18 collegiality to the Commission.

The meeting is 1

i 19 unstructured, an opportunity for the Commissioners to 1

20 bring up whatever is on their mind.

Subjects may l

l 21 range from such lofty items as the state of the world l

22 to such mundane items as the quality of the coffee.

23 It's obviously an experiment.

If it works 24 out, I would suggest we keep it up.

If not, I'll be 25 one of the first to recommend we drop it.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBER 5 1323 RHODE 15 LAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234 4433 VASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

d

?,';

' ' { *,' -

4 w

_ f. -

.1-

' Do : any Lof.' my.

~

fellow: Commissioners have 2

. opening l comments?

4 L3 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:-

Just don't expect ' tool-4.

muchlto happen at the'first meeting.

5.

CHAIRMAN CARR:

Oh ', no, no.

In.that. case, 6'

I'll kick ' of f the first meeting.

-In spite of. the 7'

Senate recommendations, 'I suggest we do not put our

~

.8-feet on the table.

9

-Also, the Chairman will be responsible from 10 now on for the coffee in the future.

I understand 11 Commissioner Roberts' office furnished it today.

We 12 appreciateithat.

13 I'think the.first subject.we ought to kick i

14 off is a structure.

15 Do you want to use my cup because I don't 16

. drink coffeo.

17 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

No, no.

18 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

You don't?

You're an 19 old Navy man and you don't drink coffee?

20 CHAIRMAN CARR:

I drank too much coffee, so 21 they took me off of it, i

22 COMMISSIONER ROBERTE:

All right.

23 CHAIRMAN CARR:

I think the structure of the 24 meetings are unstructured.

Ny suggestion is we make l

25 notes during the week of the thoughts or ideas that we HEAL R. GROSS court KIPORTEk5 AND TRANSCRIBERS I

1323 RHODE 15 LAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

._]

5 1

want to talk over end cove ourselvea trouble from 2

going one on one and talking to each other.

Try to 3

get it all done here in one meeting and save some 4

time.

5 As far as the timing, I think obviously on 6

occasion, only when we're all available and we'll see 7

what works out best.

8 As far as agenda, my suggestion is none.

I 9

have a few items on my own mind that I thought I'd 10 kick off and then we'll -- or I can go last, whichever 11 way you'd like.

12 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

Kick it off.

13 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

Go ahead.

l 14 CHAIRMAN CARR:

The first subject is when I 15 went up to visit Region I,

I got a query from one of 16 the -- and met with the ryeople in the region, the NMSS 17 people, I got a query from one of them I didn't know 18 the answer to and the subject was pay options.

The 19 question was, since the NRC has authority from the 20 Atomic Energy Act to adopt its own pay system, why 21 don't we go ahead and adopt our pay system and take 22 care of what the Congress didn' seem to on pay 23 raises.

24 Needless to say, I didn't know anything 25 about that.

So I told him I'd get some answers and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVENUf, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6000 L___

u i

6 3-

v.. 1 11 next ' time they as'<ed me the question, I'd h' ave a 2

better ' answer f or.. them.'

So, when ' I came back, the E

l.

3 staff has put a piece of' paper together which tells us l

l:

4 the background and the limitations and - how-we ' re 5

limited by law and I'll route'that around to you so 6

you can.see that.

In case you get the same-question, l

7 you11 look smarter than I did.

1

\\

8 But basically the flexibility is limited by l

9 law.

We can't -- outside of the SES, we can't exceed l~

10 level executive five, which is $75',500.00.

SES pay is 11 set at six levels, the top of which cannot exceed 12

$80,700.00, executive level four, and a total SES' pay

-13 with bonuses in the ranks can't exceed $99,500.00..

~

14 Plus there are a few other areas.

We do have 15 flexibility in that we're able to hire people at 16 advanced steps based on salary surveys.

Our technical 17 capability and experienced applicants, we can pay up 18 to ten percent more.

So, it's kind of interesting 19 that we do have the flexibility.

20 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Yes.

Yes.

-21 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Is that kind of in 22 accordance with par remembrance there, General 23 Counsel?

24 MR".

PARLER:

That's right, Mr. Chairman.

I 25 was not aware that the question had been asked.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS l

1323 RHODE ISLA.ND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234 5433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

[~

7,(

y

'7 -

-1

.Sometimes certain people don't get the word ' and I-2 guess I*m one of them. ~ But I certainly agree with the 3

general tenor of.your. remarks.

1.,

K 4

The Department of Energy, as far as I know, 5

operates under the same law and it's well known from-i 6

the press that-the head of that Department appears to=

7 need additional authority to'take care of some of-the L

8 perceived problems because of the practical 9

limitations that you'have mentioned, sir.

10 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Okay.

As you remember, when 11 I -- ch, you weren't there.

So, when I went over to 12-testify for Mr. Synar, one of the questions I got was H...

13 are you losing people because you can't pay them r

14 enough.

I told him we were losing some and I 15 remembered some that were obviously hired away because 16 they could make more money on the outside.

But I 17 didn't give him any details.

18 The second item I got is foreign travel.

I 19 notice that I'm going to be gone from the last week in 20 September to the first week in October a.9d I overlap 21 Commissioner Rogers, who is going to go on foreign 22 travel from the *hird week in October or the i

23 second week in October, and Commissioner Curtiss.

So, 24 we find that we have Commissioner Roberts as the 25 Acting chairman, since he's the only one in the i

NEAL R. GROSS CouuT REPORTER $ AND TRANSCRIBER 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N.W.

t (202) 234 4433 WA5HMGTON. D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600 a

f c.,,

g

,P

-11

. country at the. time.

But-I'll' keep you posted on'how-v 2-that looks,.but :it' is kind of ' hard -to. keep J up 'with

~

13 each other.

4 Also, when we ' plan out' our schedules of 5 L v'isits, why the:further ahead we can look in that, the:

6-more, we can all plan to. - kind of make our-travel

'7.

' coincide..'It helps a little bit in scheduling for Sam 8

at the Secretary leve.l.

9 The other thing I thought I'd bring up is 101 the lead' Commissioner concept.

You remember when 11-Chairman Zech - was - here we came' out with a piece of 12

. paper that kind of divvied up the le ad. ' Commi s sioner.

~

'13-Since' Commissioner Curtiss wasn't here --

14 COMMISSIONER-ROGERS:

We didn't really quite 115

. go.'so far as -- - wh a t we really did there, as you 16

remember, is we expressed particular. areas of 17 interest.

18 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Right, and that's 411 the 19 way it's worked.

I haven't seen --

20 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

No one has a

21 territorial right to any of those.

22 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Even though it says lead 23 Commi ssioner 's responsibility, I haven't seen anybody L,

2'4 really shunning any of that responsibility --

25 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Right.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTER $ AND TRAN$CRISER$

1323 RHODE l$ LAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

__x

.. i

' '.7.

L '.j 9

NH 1

CHAIRMAN CARR:

'who wa'sn ' t ' the ~ ' lead 2

Commissioner.-

p" right.

3' COMMISSIONER ROGERS: 'Right, n

4-

' CHAIRMAN CARR:-

So, all I,was curious about

. is - since Curtiss is not liste'd.and Zech is gone and l,';

5 1

6 we'll have a.new Commissioner coming up, do.you.want 7

to ignore this, update it?

As.I read it, it was only 8

an expression of areas of interest anyway, that you 9

were more interested in than somebody else.

10 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

I propose we ignore 11 it.

12 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Sounds all right to me,

.c 13 since we've ignored it so far.

tdf 14 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Well,~I think that the 15 basic idea that somebody is going to -- is expressing 16-a particular interest-to stay informed in some area 17 and make it his business to be particularly well 18

informed, that isn't to say everybody can't be 19 particularly well informed, but that somebody has 20 really said that they want to do that, I think makes 21 some sense.

I don't think we should stake out 22 territories and have exclusive domains, but I do 23 think --

24 CHAIRMAN CARR:

That would be pretty hard to 25 do.

HEAL R. GROSS court REPORTER $ AND TRAN$CRIBER$

1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVENU[, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WA5McNGTON, D C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

7 Al

    • }

~ 4, L10 -

?

1 COMMISSIONER' ROGERS:

Yes.

'Well,-it would i

be hard to do,- but I --

-2 g

ILwould, for.myself, c3-a COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

t. -

4 be l unwilling ? to surrender 'anything to anybody else, 5

but' you seem to be intere.sted in; the NARUC thing..

I-6 think' that's wonderful.

I'have no' interest in'NARUC-7 at all'and I don't want'to be bothered with.that.

But k

l' 8

if you're interested in that and want'to do that, and b

9 I.' think-the NRC should be represented ~in'some way, I l

10

.think:that's terrific.

11 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Well, let me just say

.12 on that, it-isn't..so much that I have that' burning an

-A 13 interest,_ but I'v'e had some experience with the l1?

Tid.

-utility end of things.

So I know a little. bit about-l l'

15-that and I do'think somebody ought to do it.

And I 16 think all of us --

17.

CHAIRMAN CARR:

It's a job that needs to be 18 done.

~

19 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

So I took it on really 20 more on the basis that maybe I'm the most appropriate 21 one to do it.

I don't find it a thrilling assignment.

22 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Well, and I think it could 23 be a good forum when you come back from those meetings 24 to cut the rest of us in.

25

~ COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Yes.

Well, I have NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

.I 7

< ' - a,.

.,E yy

[:

<c?

l tried;to send each of you my reports.

2-CHAIRMAN-CARR:

Yes.

'3 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

But:I think maybe'this d'.

kind of thing would be a' good opportunity sometimes to 5-just --

6 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Yes, save you. from writing 7

all those reports.

8 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Well, I think it.

9 doesn't hurt to have someone write it'down anyhow.

10 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Make 'it for the record,

-11 okay.

12'

' COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Well, I think that the 13 notion of areas of real interest is not.a bad one.

14 It's.not exclusive territory.

I wouldn't do anything 15 with it right now, other than wait to see what happens 16 when the new Commissioner comes aboard.

17 CHAIRMAN CARR:

I think it's a good idea to 18 know what each of your area of primary interest is, 19 if you will.

20 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Yes, that's really all 21 it is, I think.

22' CHAIRMAN CARR:

So that if you're going to 23 concentr a te on some particular area, why then the rest 24 of us might not have to concentrate that hard on it.

25 But some areas obviously interest me more than others.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTER $ AND TRANSCRIBER $

1323 RHODE 15 LAND AYENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

22 1

COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Sure.

2 CHAIRMAN CARR:

I'm sure we've all got that.

3 So we'll try to update it as far as the areas of 4

interest, rather than saying lead Commissioner.

We'll 5

just redraft and refocus that a little bit.

6 The next item is a senior management survey.

7 I guess you all saw the memo from our Acting EDO on a 8

senior management survey, The Impact of NRC Activities 9

on the Safe Operation of Nuclear Power Plants.

10 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Yes.

11 CHAIRMAN CARR:

I must admit when I read it 12 I got a little bit -- the perception could have 13 existed that we were going out and ask the regulated 14 how good we were as regulators, and I didn't want 15 public perception to go that way.

But when he said i

16 that he's going to start, I believe, in September, we 17 may want to kind of refocus a little bit of the 18 background.

19 Before Vic Stello left, he discussed it with 20 me and said that they ran this kind of a survey before 21 and I think it's affectionately called the O'Reilly 22 Study.

I i

23 Is that right, Mr. Counselor?

l 24 MR. PARLER:

That's what it's affectionately l

25 called.

The official title of it is "A

Report on a NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBER $

1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600 f

1

p.

?l!

B 4.,

33

, m*., ;

js

'l

-Survey by Senior NRC Management t'o obtain' Viewpoints 2'

on. the Safety Impact of. Regulatory Activities from 3-Representative Utilities -Operating and: Constructing.

4 Nuclear Power Plants."

It's. dated July the 1st,,1981.

5-CHAIRMAN CARR:

It's no surprise they 6

abbreviated it to the O'Reilly Report.

7 And he said the outcome of that, as I 8

. understand it, was the Backfit Rule, among other 9

things.

And so obviously, there can be good things 10 coming out of a survey like this.

The intent of this-11 one was somewhat generated, I think, by the NUMARC 12 comment that you guys are putting-backfits in by 13 generic letter and the comments that we were -- you i

14

' remember the last NUMARC briefing.

So, the idea was 15.

to go out and get some data on what's the perception.

l 16-out there and what do they see that we're doing that's 17 not within our regulations.

18 So, it was discussed the increased 19 requirements, the increased team inspection and the 20 impact on the plant staffs, perception that NRC and 21 INPO are in competition to be tough, inconsistency 22 between ' headquarters and regions on definition of 23 requirements, inspectors increasing standards, total

~

24 reguletory oversight impact, conflicting requirements l

25 between oversight and regulatory organizations.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE 15 LAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234 4 433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

_ _-_-_x--_-_

e..;

o u

1g

' j c' M '-

' 1' Obviously there's'.some. good subjects in there.

2 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

Yes, those"are valid 3

questions.

J hose-4 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Darn'right.

Some of t

'5 we can get in-house, I would. think'.

Like we should' 6'

know what requirements we've putJon'them so we can..get 1

7

.that data and certainly the numbers of inspections.and' 8

?

Obink we ' ve - done a recent look-at how many 9-

' inspections. we 've got on and how much overlap there 10 is.

I'think there's'an~ inspection planning system'now.

'11 on'our computers that.is supposed to take care of some-12 of those~ problems.

But those are good questions.

13 My concern, I guess, w=?' chat the perception

.e 14 of what we were doing might be mistaken because if 15 you're' going to go out and ask the regulated how good l'

16 a job you're doing, it seems we-ought to also go out' 17 and ask the rest of the world how they perceive our l

l.

18 regulation.

l' 19 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

You wouldn*t like the i

L, 20 answer.

21 CHAIRMAN CARR:

It depends on who it came in l

'22 from.

I'd like all the positive answers.

-23 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

I thini that that's a 24 very broad list of topics.

I think that my view from 25 the plant visits is that there really is a building NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHtNGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

l 1

15-l.

11 ' '

' problem out there ' of the' nuitber of inspections for 2

various. purposes the licensees are subject to.

Thet D

3 isn't just NRC by any means.

4 CHAIR! SAN CARR:

.No, no.

5 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

In fact, we may even 6

be well, we're certainly probably the smallest 7

fraction of the total or a fraction of the total.

8 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Yes, I would -say we're 9

probably the largest fraction of the total.

10 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Well, y e s,. we're 11 probably the largest fraction..

But we still -- we're 12 a fraction.

We're-not the majority of it.

13 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Yes.

l 14 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

There's a number of 15' contributing factors.

It seems to me that there is a 16 legitimate question as to whether -- so much time is

'17 being devoted to various kinds of inspections, our 18 inspection, INPO's inspections, insurers inspections, l

L 19 state environmental agency inspections and then 20 inspections by the off-site teams of the corporation l

l.

21 itself, which sometimes sends in a couple of different 1

22 teams i

1.

23 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Well, the insurers and the

~

24 boiler inspectors get there.

25 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Yes, and the plant NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

' t 6

l j

1 j

manager, you know, everyday has got a new inspector 2

coming on to his doorstep.

4.

3 CHAIRMAN CARR:

And yet every time we go 4

they tell us how happy they are to see us 5

Commissioners, right?

6 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Well, because maybe

(

7 h

they can tell us about some of their problems.

But at-B 8

any rate, I think that there is legitimate question as 9

to whether it isn't becoming excessive from the 10 standpoint of good, safe operations, attention being 11 diverted to satisfying the requirements of an 12 inspection, getting ready for it, participating in it, 13 winding it up, that it's not seriously cutting into 14 i

their effective working time in running those plants.

15 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Yes.

Well, I guess my 16 instinct is we ought to separate out from this those 17 things we can find in-house --

18 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Yes, yes.

1 and only go bother the 19 CHAIRMAN CARR:

r 20 plants for those things we need to get their input on 21 and them we ought to --

22 COMMISSIONER RCG RS:

Well, it does seem to 23 me that it's too broad a list though.

I would prefer 24 to see it taken in bite sized chunks.

It's a little i

25 bit to much like, what are your general comments on 1

I l

k i

-*y

.g.

l' regulation, :and.~I 2'

CHAIRMAN CARR:

.Well, I guess you'velseen---

=3' a part of the-input to this was goingLto be the result' 4

of Ed Jordan's backfit ' survey, which 'I guess you've 5

-seen now or at least it's in-house.

That was going to-6L be an. input to the overall findings. that Bert Davis

. 7 --

was' going to get.

8 I guess my real question for us today is 9

give this some thought and let us figure out how we 10-want to reply - that this was kind of an information 11

~ note from Jim Taylor.to say what they were planning to.

12 do.

If we want to put a little steer on that, why we 13 ought to --

14 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Yes, I'd like to try

.15 and encourage --

16 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Send us a calm whoever it is 17 and we can take some action on that.

38 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

Is it your 19 understanding this would be separate from the 20 backfitting study?

21 CHAIRMAN CARR:

No, I think the beekfit 22 study was supposed to L an input into the findings 23 from this.

l 24 C5MMISSIONER CURTISS:

All right.

l

}

25 CHAIRMAN CARR:

That was my understanding 1'

l NEAL R. GROSS I

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234U433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

  • ?-
  • E Q

I 1-from what: I --

-2' COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

-I guess my lonly L

3 thought on ~this, and-we ' might want to give it some 4

thought over the next week'or two,- we may not.get:the 5

kind of answer that we want.to get from the utilities 6

if wel.go out and ask. them, ~ particularly the people.

7.

responsible for the day to day regulation,- the e

=8 regions, go out and.ask them, "What'are your' thoughts

.9

.on' backfitting or inspections or generic letters?"

10 And we've seen some of that in other contexts where 11 utilities have been reluctant to pursue - backfit.

12 appeals or reluctant to be more ' than forthcoming.

13 That might be a

thought we-consider in the 14 constitution of who goes out and talks to the 15 individual utilities.

16 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Well, you know, there has 17 been a reluctance that I kind of gathered f rom 'the 18 utilities.

They are reluctant to complain about 19 anything we're doing because they feel like the 20 retribution comes.

21 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

Yes.

I'm not sure 22 how you solve that.

I 1

23 CHAIRMAN CARR:

I have a hard time getting 24 them to tell me what that -- cases of that, because I 25 do say we can't fix it if you don't point it out.

NEAL R. GROSS l

l-COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE 15 LAND AVENUE, N.W.

_ 202) 234 4 433 WASHINGTON D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

(

,'g 1Qg.

j, *."

'1 COMMISSIONER'CURTISS: 'Right.

'2 CHAIRMAN - CARR:

And:.they ' re ~ reluctant to R

7

' point it:out.

S o,- I don't know.

I' can ' t-separate l:

4' whether they've got: facts or.whether they've just got 5

opinions.

6-MR.

'PARLER:

In-the 1981

study,

'Mr.

7 Chairman, the study members certainly got information

'8-and identified a whole' host of problems.

The 9'

' introduction of that study says that each group of the 10

. industry people, the utility people that were. talked

'11 to, were informed by an NRC participant that the 12 problems or' issues that they identified would not be 13 directly associated with the individuals personally

,,y W

- 14 but with their company.

15 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Yes, ' and that's the same 16 thing in this survey too.

So, I think that you could 17 probably get the right data, but we'll give that some 18 thought, unless you wanted to discuss this some more.

19 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

No, except that you 20 did raise a question and Commissioner Roberts a

21 commented on it about how are we perceived as

-22 regulaters.

We were recently informed that we don't 23 look at the big picture and that the American public l

l 24 is not satisfied with its regulation and the results 1

I 25 of this Agency's activities.

]

NEAL R. GROSS I

I COURT RE#0RTERS AND TRANSCRIBER $

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 23# 4 433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

j. -

y '..;

20:

If l'-

CHAIRMAN CARR:

You're ' ref erring to our r

2

' hearing?

j.:

3 COMMISSIONER' ROGERS:

Yes.

4 CHAIRMAN CARR:- Okay.

I just wa,nted to make 5

sure who it was that informed.us.

6 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

And-so, I think it*s 7

something that we ought to think about.

I'm not quite 8

sure how's the best way to inform the public better 9

about'what we're doing.

I think there is not a very 10 conscious receipt of information about we do from the 11 American public.

The American public is.a great big 12 body. of people out there.

There is no such thing 13 really in the number of individuals and groups of all-

.7..

14 kinds and what have you.

But I think that most people 15 who are worried about nuclear power and how well it's 16 being regulated don't know anything about what we're 17 doing.

18 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Well, along that line, let 19 me encourage you when you go out to make your public 20 speeches maybe that we quit talking to the choir, the 21 ANS and the whole --

22 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Well, this is one of 23 the problems --

24 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

That we quit what?

25 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Talking to the choir We NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTER $ AND TRANSCRIBERS,

1323 RHODE l$ LAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

m,:

y

's-

/if T1.

get. invited - from, the utilities ^ and the - ANS _ and all

.We oughtLto 2_

,.those. types ofLpeople'to-make a; speech.

'3-l start looking for other fora to get"out and advertise'.

4 what : we 'do cinibecause it'.s interesting,_ as you say,

'5-how' uneducated the public'is to exactly what. we do.

')

-]

'6'

-As' Senator 1Simpson says, "The public. thinks'youl guys 7

get around1and-put your feet on the table and have'a-8' cup ~of coffee and kick around these ideas."

I saidi 9

~"Well, I didn' t ' think ~ that : before. I got there, but i

10 maybe the general public does."

The general public is 11 what'we need to educate.

12

'But as I say, I would encourage you not'only-

]y 13 to look~ for areasi to make talks to that are not 14'

. generally power oriented, shall we say, and --

'15 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Well, I don *t know.

I

'16 think-that you ' ve. always got to korry about a 17 multiplication'effect.

It's important to try to talk 18 to groups that have some leverage.

You can't talk to ~

19 every man on the street.

And so it's important to try

.20 to -t alk - to groups that have some leverage and 21 therefore can convey a message to a broader audience.

22 of course the first thought that comes in 23 mind i s why not talk to the dentists.

They. have 24 captive audiences who can't talk back, but they're a 25 professional group and they're technically educated 4

________________m

________________._.________m-_u

73.

,,y I

Q:,.

7,;

22

-1 and genera 11ylinterested'in matters relating to health ~

x 2

and safety.

I~am presently searching out.a way to try;

-3

't o - g e t to professional leagues of that ' type of 4.

individual...

5 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

.May I tell

a. quick 6

' story?.

7 CHAIRMAN 'CARR:

Certainly.

It's a public 8

' meeting.

'9-COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

Yes, andl free forum 10' and'all that and no Agenda

-11 I have gum and teeth problems and when I 12 moved up here I got my periodontist in Memphis to get-

&;,4 13 me a. fellow.

He's over in Falls Church, Virginia.and 14-he's about my age and similar backgrounds in. many 15 respects.

We.*ve gotten to be friends.-

So, I was in 16 there.

I*d been going to him for several years and I 17 was in ~ there one day and I got in the chair and he.

18-said, " Tom, you're a fraud."

j 19 I said, "What the hell you talking about?"

i

.20-He said, "Well, my last patient works at the 1

l 21 Nuclear Regulatory Commission."

l l

22 I said, "Yes, we've got about 2500 employees j

l 23 in the Washington area."

l J

'24 He said, "He never heard of you."

25 CHAIRMAN CARR:

So, we've got some in-house MEAL R. GROSS 1

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.

l

}

(202) 234 4 433 W45HINGTON. D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

L. <.,

73

-.?

1 problems.

2 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

When I was in the.

.31 Navy, you had to know -- at. least when I.

was a

(

4

' midshipman, you had to know who the.Se'cretary of,the

-5 Navy was.

That doesn't' apply in the NRC, believe me.

I' 6

CHAIRMAN CARR:

Okay..

1 i

Well, I think that --

l 7

COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

8 CHAIRMAN CARE:

So, dentists _ do have an.

9 input.

10 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Oh, - I think so, l

11 absolutely.

I think that --

l.

12 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

It depends on your-1 d'finition.

w 13 e

q 14 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

I think our 15 responsibility is to tell people what we're doing.

We 16 don *t have to intrude' on the sensitive area whether 17 we're promoting or not promoting nuclear power.

We i

18 can tell the American public how we're working for 19 their safety.

I think this Agency has done a very-l 20 excellent job and is working very hard and l-21 conscientiously to do precisely that.

I think it's 22 been pretty effective and we have a lot of respect l

l 23 around the world, much more than we do sometimes in 24 our own backyard 25 I think we have something of an obligation, NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS j

1323 RHODE 15 LAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600 l

y

(.

1 "24

.I 1

-in a-sense, to tell' the people who are supporting us 2

and paying our salaries what they're getting for-their 3

' money.

4' CHAIRMAN CARR:

Well, I guess my ' point is SL there are

a. lot of civic organizations like Rotiaries 6

.and Lions that sometimes get 2.or 300 members at a 7-time for lunch and they're always looking for_somebody 8

who will give them 20 minutes worth of_ talk, whether 9

.they-agree with it or not.

10 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Yes.

11 CHAIRMAN CARR:

So, -we ought to take

.12 advantage, I think, of those opportunities when they 13 come-by.

14 Anybody want to-kick that around anymore?

15 The next item' is certification of reactor 16 designs.

As you may know, I got in a discussion with 17 one of our people the other day which got reported in 18L the press on how do you get in line to get your 19 certification.

This is from The Federal Regis ter and 20 certainly it's along the line that I was trying to put i

21 out.

So I'll let you know it and see if you agree 22 that's the way we ought to go.

23 "The Commission continues to believe that 24 certification by rule is preferable to certification 25 by. license.

As DOE says, the design certification NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600 b

-_- =--

t.'

4 25 1

will, like a rule, have generic application.

2

Moreover, certification by ruler.aking leaves the 3

Commission free. to adapt hearing procedures to the 4

requirements of the subject matter rather than rely 5

exclusively on formal adjudicatory devices even when 6

they are not useful.

Hearing procedures are more 7

fully discussed below."

8 This is the pertinent part.

" Finally, 9

certification by rulemaking permits the Commission to 10 consider reactor designs submitted by foreign 11 corporations.

However, the Commission will give 12 priority to designs for which there is a demonstrated 13 interest in the United States.

The Commission will 14 review other designs as resources permit."

15 I

guess it boils down to what is a

16 demonstrated interest in the United States?

But that 17 was the point I was trying to make, is that -- what we 18 have said in the preface to the rule.

19 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

I don't know.

It 20 seems to m-we really ought to give a lot of thought 21 to that whole thing because this business of coming in 22 with new possible designs for certification s.. s m.; to 23 be starting to build up and the interest seems to be l

l 24 growing.

Certainly I keep hearing more and more from 1

25 people who have an interest and want to alert us to NEAL R. GROSS l

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS f

1323 RHoDE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.

f (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

, ~. _....

g-

.L 26-

- i:' h '

1-their ~ interest and intend to submit something and = 's o -

2 on and'so forth.

And of course, we already have-the 4

3 ones that are in'the. works.

~

4 I think we ought to give some real thought 5'

as to how.'s the best way to proceed here..

'I think if 6

we simply interpret that to mean --

7 CHAIRMAN CARR:

This is what we've already B

said, what the priority to design --

9 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

-- a U.S. utility --

10 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Well, it doesn't say that.

11 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

I know.

12 CHAIRMAN CARR:

It says priority designs for 13

. which there's a demonstrated interest in the United 14 States.

15 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

Be it the vendor or 16 the utility.

17 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Yes.

It's a question 18 of how we interpret that.

You can interpret that in a 19 number of different ways and I think we ought to give 20 a

little thought to it to see just what the 21 ramifications of various ways of interpreting that.

22 CHAIRMAN CARR:

That'3 the only reason I 23 brought it up.

I think it's a good idea.

1 24 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Yes, I think -- I 25 don't think we ought to just hop et an interpretation.

l' NEAL R. GROSS court REPORTER $ AND TRANSCRIBER 5 1323 RMoDE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WA5HMGTON, D.C.

20005' (202) 232-6600

9,.

27 J*'

l' We ought to give it~a little more thought and talk 2

about it some more because --

3 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

It seems to me it 4'

wasn't quite as clear at the time that that was-put 5

out'as well, what the plans of CANDU and PIUS and the

'6 others that we've seen in the past four or five, six 7

months come on the table.

Maybe it's an opportunity 8

to go back and take a look at where we want to apply.

9 the' priority in terms of resources.

10 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Well, we've obviously only 11 got enough money and I guess the General. Counsel can 12 advise us on whether if the foreign plant comes in 13 with his money in hand and says, "I want to. pay you to 14 certify my design," how can we handle that?

Can we-15 hire people?

Can we take his money or does it go to 16 the Treasury or --

17 MR.

PARLER:

It depends upon whether a l

18 foreign government comes in.

We could enter into an 19 arrangement with the foreign government.

It is my 20 p r e s e r.t understanding that if you have a foreign 21 government and such an arrangement, that the money can

.22 be retained and it does u tz t have to go into 23 miscellaneous receipts in the Treasury.

I would not 24 think that you could hire people with that money L

25 because it is no certain thing over a period of time NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTEk$ AND TRANSCRIBER 5 1323 RHODE 15 LAND AVENUE, N.W.

J j-(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600 C

p

--.g.

e I

-l' and'you would be subject _'to the constraints for FTEs, 2

et cetera.-

3 --

~ CHAIRMAN CARR:

,But you might be able to 4

contract it out.

~

5-MR. PARLER:

However, I would think that you 6

could use. the money to contract for the review work, i<

7 That' is my present understanding.

But for'any

-8 question like_'that,~of course you would have to look 9

at the partisfulars and see all the facts.

10 CII AIRM AN CARR:

Oh, sure.

Well, I'm-L 11

' comforted to know that it says in our rules here that 12 anything we say at a meeting like this we can't be 13 held.for anyway, right?'

E4 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

We can't be what?

15 CHAIRMAN CARR:

We can*t be held to 16 something you say in one of these meetings.

17 MR. PARLER:

That's true, but if all of it 18 proves to be a wasteland, you might want to reconsider

.19 having the meet.ing.

20 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Oh, okay, I agree with that.

21 MR. PARLER:

I think what that really means 22 is you can't cit. the transcript and --

)

23 CHAIRMAN CARR:

isell, if I made a mistake, I 24 get a chance to correct it.

25 MR. PARLER:

We're all human beings, yes.

HEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCR16ERS 1313 RNODE 15 LAND AVENUE. H.W.

(202) 234-4433 WA5NINGTON. D.C.

20005 (202) 232-0600

m

-i L.

gt a,

27' 1

?'.

l' CHAIRMAN-CARR:

Okay.

2 MR. PARLER:.It'means that.

3 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

'My experience. has

4 been to the contrary.

5 CHAIRMAN CARR:

'Once you're on. record, 6

you're-on record.

17 '

COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

You bet.

8 CHAIRMAN CARR:.

All right.

9 Do you want to give ' that' some thought then 10-and we'll ---

11 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

Yes.

12

. COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Yes.

.13 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

I do think it bears 14-some looking at.

15 MR. PARLER:

Mr. Chairman, I think that if 16.

those words are given additional meaning, I*a seying 17 something that's ob'vious, that the Commission should 18' put out'a-policy statement.

19 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

Yes, but you've got 20 to carry that to its logical extreme and say that a 21 demonstrated interest has to be an application by 22 utility.

It seems to me we'ee undermined the purpose 23 of Part 52, which is to have a preapproved desige the 24 utilities can look at before they " demonstrate their 25 interest."

So, it does seem to me there's a line that NEAL R. GROSS court RFDoRTERS AND TRANSCRIBER $

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433.

WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

==-_2-_-_--

g. ? X V;-

~30 x

1 needs'to be. drawn not only in how much we:want to see H

2-in~ terms of. a ' demonstrated. interest, bu t. by. whom, a j

h 3.

utility or,a vendor.or whatever.

4 COMMISSIONER ' ROGERS:

Well, also if.a 5

foreign design. sets up a U.S..

corporate entity, 6

'in'corporates in-the U.S.

and then presents a.' design to 7

us.through that mechanism, are they any different from 8

anybody else who comes to us with a design in the 9

U.S.?-

10

.MR.

PARLER:

Well, they obviously are.

11 different.

They're a foreign ' vendor that sets up'.a 12 United States ' company.

If indeed the purpose is.

13 simply t c.

get this agency's stamp of approval for a.

14 other reasons not.having too much to do with the 15.-

generation of energy in this country I would think 16-that would be a difference-that could be pursued and 17 probably would be if you're faced with' priorities and 18 competing resources to get a particular regulatory 19 review job done.

'N CHAIRMAN CARR:

Well said.

21 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

Yes.

It might be I have two questions.

One, Bill, are you 22 that 23 saying that in order for us to take the money it has 24 to be a

foreign government as opposed to a 25 corporation?

HEAL R. GROSS court REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUI, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

31

'1!

MR.

P'A R L E R ::

That is my present 2

understanding.

.3 COMMISSIONER ' CURTISS :

Okay.

So, if AECL 4

came in, for instance, with the CANDU application,

'5

-we'd have to have some sort of governmental 6-relationship with them in order to get --

7 MR.

PARLER:

That is my present 8

understanding.

The-understanding is based on oral 9

discussions in the office.

I haven't'seen any 10 definitive' legal analysis y e t,. but -I have a high 11 confidence-that the understanding is probably correct.

12 CHAIRMAN CARR:

I wonder if it's wise to go 13 ahead and get the legal answer while we're thinking 14 about this problem.

It might be a good place to 15 start.

16 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

Yes.

One other 17-thought.

If we're looking at trying to gauge the 18 extent of U.S.

interest and stopping short of having 19 actual application in from the utility, perhaps you 20 can have that kind of firm demonstration of interest.

L 21 It might be that a good benchmark of that would be the l

l 22 EPRI process which purports to be a collection of the l.

23 utilities and vendors.

24 CHAIRMAhi CARR:

Well, that's -- yes.

The 1

25 really -- the thing that we want to remember when EPRI NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS.

1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

3..

32 j

.1 andL NUMARC comes11n -is : to get a feeling from NUMARC, 2~

.if they 'll give. us one, on. wha t the feeling of the 3

.U.S.

utilities..are about' buying a design that'does not 4 '-

meet the NUMARC.-- I mean the EPRI guidelines.

If the 5:

general' feeling is that they ' are not ' interested. 'in -

6 Ldesigns that don't meet the EPRI guidelines, then we 7

probably ought: to put'more priority on looking at.the

8 EPRI guidelines and making sure we'get them finished..

9 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

And in ' turn. the 10 designs that are subject to ' EPRI - guidelines, if EPRI

-11 decides, for instance, not to review or establish a 12 requirements document that inc1 e les the PIUS reactor, 13 for instance, and in fact if that nexus exists, the 14 utilities are looking for. a design that meets the l'

15

-requirements document of EPRI.

Maybe that tells us 16 what the extent of U.S.

interest is in the --

l

_17-CHAIRMAN CARR:

Some demonstration anyway.

18 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

Right.

19 CHAIRMAN CARR:

But we need -- well, maybe 20 it would be a good idea then, if you've got the time' 21 there, General Counsel, we could get a more definitive 22 answer on whether or not -- on how and who from we can L

l 23 take the money and where it goes.

24 MR. PARLER:

All right.

25 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Next item, unless you want I

NEAL R. GROSS COURT !tEPORTER$ AND TRANSCRIBER $

l 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

Y

' 1-torkick that one around.-

My term as Chairman is^two P

a 2

. years and I'd like to - get something.done before I'm I 3

through.-

So, I'm trying to. focus on a few~ things that=

4; I; can get done before I leave.

Of course, you. _know 5.

plant life. extension is-.one ofthem and' maintenance is 6

another one, below regulatory concern, those hot 7

particles.

You're familiar with those interests: of 8

mine.

I 9

I've ' asked. the. other Commissioners ~ to give 10 me their areas of interest so we can focus on a few:

11 things rather than a lot.

So, I would remind -- I've 12 got a few pieces of paper now we'11'look over and see 13 if we can kind of hone in on setting up which way we 14' want the staff to go in the near term.

So, I'd 15 appreciate it if you'd give that some thought.

16 And speaking of maintenance, in our policy 17 statement or our SRM, I guess it was,.on maintenance, 18 on the maintenance -- no, this was SECY-189.

This is l

19 the ' amendment to

'89-43 with COMLZ 89-21 on the 20 amendment to 10 CFR 50 related to maintenance i'n 21 nuclear power plants.

The staff came in with their

'22 schedules for the maintenance policy statement and the 23 maintenance reg.

guide schedule and my biggest 24 interest in that, of course, is making sure both of 25 them were done before my watch so I could get the rule

'NEAL R. GROSS COURT, REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1ZJ RHODE 15 LAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600 WL

i

.i s.

-4 34

.j p

L

.4'"

1

,out; y

v av 2

So,.it looks like there were two items; One

3-is we. agreed, to all. the-final draft rule on-e 4:

maintenance and abeyance for an 18: month period from 5.

the effective date 'of the. revised policy. statement..

i 6

The policy.' statement schedule looks like it's set'.for.

7 about.the lith of October.

So that.would run, the way; 8

I figured it --

9 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

Is that for

^

10' publication?

- 11 CHAIRMAN CARR:

That was to the Commission.

12 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

To the Commission.

l:

.p.

13 CHAIRMAN CARR:

So, then, depending on how o,1 14 fast we did our work, why sometime around April

'91,

. hat I'm trying to do is to 15 the 18 month time out.

W 1

- 16 make sure that we have time to get the rule out as 17.

well as do the policy statement.

So, my suggestion is 18 '-

that we take a look at that.

I would like, if it's 19 all right with everybody, to give NUMARC a little

~ 20 phone call and tell them that their 18' month period is 21' timing them because we agreed to let them state -- we 22 said the p oli::y statement should

state, "The 23-Commission's intent to grant the industry a set period 24 of time (18 months), during'which the Commission would 25 monitor the industry's initiatives in the area of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBER $

1323 RHODE 15 LAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

35

'l maintenance and announce the Commission's intention to f

2 hold the draft final rule in abeyance during this 3

period of time."

,1 4

I wanted to start their clock so I could 5

stop it before I left and see how they're doing.

I 6

want to also encourage them to help us get the reg.

7 guide finished because the reg. guide is going to be 8

the key to what they have to do.

So, and the reg.

9 guide schedule came in with a proposal for getting the 10 final notice on the reg. guide availability out this 11 quarter -- I guese it looks like the third quarter of 12

'89, get a comment period on that, do some revision to 13 it, put out the revised reg. guide and hold a workshop g,

14 on it.

Then there was a proposal that they have a 15 voluntary pilot program and the voluntary pilot 16 program runs beyond the time I want it to because I--

17 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

Looks like you have 18 to re-up.

19 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Re-enlisting is not the 20 problem we're discussing here.

21 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

Don't.

22 CHAIRMAN CARR:

What we're trying to do i 23 to make sure we can get the maintenance rule out if we 24 don *t see the required changes in the industry 25 maintenance program.

So, I don't want to leave it NEAL R. GROSS court REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBER $

1323 RHoDE 15 LAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 J202) 232-6600

I

..f,)'

,3 6' 1

i

, undone.

2 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Where is that schedule 3

right;now?

.I haven *t seen that yet.

4 CHAIRMAN.CARR:

I haven't given it to you.

5 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:' Oh, okay.

6' CHAIRMAN CARR:

That's why, I' m discussing 7

it.

I'll?just send it along because the Acting EDO.

8 and I just discussed it the other day.

9 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Well, I've been 10 hearing'some things about it I'm not too pleased with'.

11-So, I'd.like to --

12 CHAIRMAN CARR:

I'll be happy to send' it.

13 along to you.

-14 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Particularly that l

15 pilot program which sounds to me like it's being 16 tacked on the end.

I thought that that was something 17 we were going to try to encourage very early on to.get 18-a feeling about adequate performance indicators and 19 how they might work.

If that comes very -- if it 20 comes at tha end of the whole thing, then I'm not sure 21 how much effect it has on what might or might not be a 22 rule.

23 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Well, maybe we better j.
24 schedule an early meeting on this and we'll get the I

25 staff to come up and lay it all out and show us how NEAL R: GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBER $

1323 RHODE 15 LAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

i. r.g c...,

p, f*

l' ithey're going 1to get where we.want-to go by then..

p 2-COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Yes.

3L

CHAIRMAN CARR:

I)oes that' sound all right?-

4 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Well, I think.we ought-g

'5 to hear more about this.

Just on this-general' 6

subject --

L 7'

CHAIRMAN CARR:

Since it's an area of l'

L 8

specific interest to me, I won't let it drop.

l 9

COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Yes.

Well, I think l'

10 it's been an area of interest to us all.

We've all l.'

11 had a little different views on it.

But I found l

12 reading the transcript of the Senate Committee meeting 1.

H 13 at which Joe Farley made a. presentation on behalf of li.

l.

14 several of the industry groups extremely interesting, L

15

.a'little perplexing in some ways because the 16 approach 17 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Singularly uncooperative.

18 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Well, that's what 19 we've seen, but that wasn't the face presented to the 3

20' Senate Committee.

In fact, Mr. Farley, on behalf'of 1

21 the industry group, seemed to offer to work with the 22 Senate Committee in discussing the elanents of what a 3

1 23 legislative maintenance program might be.

I'm not 24 sure that's what he intended to s eiy, but that's what 25 it sounded like to me in reading the transcript.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE 15 LAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

2000$

(202) 232-6600 I-

g ; O.,

~

l.

~

The point '. that' I want to make, however,Jis.

j

[ 4* '

l p

1 2

that 'we - never had any cooperation from an. industry

.y.

N 3

group' to sit down 'and work with 'us on what a 4

maintenance rule might be.

.We really received just a 5-more.or less uniform response that-a' maintenance. rule

?

6.

--is'a' bad idea, whereas in fact the testimony ~in that.

7 hearing seemed to say..to me that'they weren't opposed 8

to a' maintenance rule provided it didn't disrupt'the 1

9 programs that are already in place and that it wasn't 10 overly.' prescriptive _ but allowed for individual 11' differences among plants.

12 The point was made that we have over 100

+

13 different designs and that no one maintenance program 14 is entirely appropriate for every one of them.

As I 15 recall, the Senator's dialogue on that with Mr. Farley 16 was, "Well, that isn't what we're looking for.

We're 17

- looking for an assurance of a maintenance program of 18 some sort that could be different at every plant."

19 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Yes.

Well, yes, they got.

20' into a 115 different maintenance rules.

21 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

Right.

22 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Now, that's precisely 23 the approach I've been trying to get us interested in

  • 24 and get the industry in t erf.:s t ed in.

I must say I 25 haven't had much success any way around.

And here the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE 15 LAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, 04 20005 (202) 232-6600 1

_.-___._.__-..-~.__________4._____.____._____.___._-____________-._.J

g 5 u,

j

. g 1

industry ' seemed, to be saying, "Well, that isn't so.

9

.2 ba'd.

Why don't we sit down and. talk to you about.it."

l 3

I'd like to see why..they.ca,n't sit down and talk'to us

.4L about it.

So, I think we ought to pick up on.what was 5

of fered.. in that hearing and offer our open. ears as 1

6 well as those -- as well as the --

7 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Okay.

Well, why don' t. we 8

plan and schedule an early-on meeting with the staff 9

and then maybe with NUMARC too.

10 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Yes.

l 11 CHAIRMAN CARR:

And see. if we can put a 12 different focus on it.

R 13 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

I*d'like to revisit--

'14 to me, if the industry comes up with a really good 15 program of some sort, we might be willing to l

16-reconsider whether we really do need a rule.

But 4

17 there's got to be something there beyond, "It isn't l

l 18-necessary."

19 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

Yes.

The concept, as l-20 I understand it, is similar to what we did in l

21 training, where the --

22

. CHAIRMAN CARR:

Yes.

23-COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

-- the posture was 24 very much the same as where I think we find ourselves l

25 in on maintenance.

At some point the interest in--

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS Ic 1323 rho 0E ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

w

.,, 3 8 l

that:may have,been expressed-in the-hearing.in having 1-2' some' ' sort of rule that is. general enough to allow 3

plant-specific variances may become so general that as 4

a practical matter it is a policy statement' or it's l

5-112','113 different regulations.

6 I guess I'm prepared - to give the industry 7

the benefit of the doubt during this 18 month period, 8

take a shard look at the pilot program that 9

Commissioner Rogers has scheduled.

I do think it 10 ought'to be done before the end-of the 18 month period 11 so we can' take into account the results of that 12 program.

But if they're performing on a curve ' that 13 the staff is comfortable with, and I take it they are, 14 and they continue that progress in a manner similar to

~'

15 what they did in the training area, in my judgment we 16 could probably claim victory at the end of the 18

- 17 month period if we see the kind of maintenance we'd 18 like to see and still allow the time necessary, Mr.

19

Chairman, for us to visit the issue and consider 20 regulation before the end of your term if we don't see 21 that progress.

22 CHAIRMAN CARR:

All right.

23 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

It does sound to me 24 like we could use a meeting to discuss things.

1

. 25 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Any other comments on that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE l$ LAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASH 6NGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600 w__2_-_____--_-__--_.

y, q.:.

L

~41'

+-

f'

-1

'one?.

I've run out-of items..

2 COMMISSIONER ~ ROBERTS:

'And I've run out of p

l

~3.

' coffee.

l 4

CHAIRMAN CARR:

We'll fix that. next' time.

5

.The Chairman is responsible for the coffee.

6 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

I come from that world 7

. tha t'- likes to. talk forever, you know, the academic 8

.world.

~

9 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Well, we've got another 10 meeting at 10:00 o' clock.

11' COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

I hesitate to quit,

.12 but I do think that there are a number of issues'.that n

13.

we ought to be thinking about and one of them I think 14 I'll throw out now, not to get into a discussion of 15 it, but I think that we ought to be taking our own 16 medicine.

We prescribe a number of things to our 17 licensees because we think that's really the right way 18' to do things and then we don't do them ourselves, at 19 least not to the same degree that we expect them to 20 do.

21 I'm talking about quality control and 22.

quality assurance of everything that we do.

It seems 23 to me that we really need to take a look at a more 24 formalized approach to quality assurance of the 25 activities of the Commission itself.

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.

}202) 2 4 4433 WASHINGTON. D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

42 1

Now, please don't interpret that to mean j

i 2

that I feel deeply concerned about that we don't have

)

i I

3

. quality here.

I think we have a quality operation and j

r I

4 an' excellent one.

But every organization needs to be

{

5 assured of that and from time to time needs mechanisms 6

to turn ' up indications of difficulties before they 7

multiply'up.

We've seen some situations in which our 8

own record keeping and our own follow through in 9

recent years has really not been what we would have 10 liked it to be and certainly would not have been 11 satisfactory to us had it been a licensee.

12 And so, I think we ought to give some real 13 thought to this whole question of how do we assure 14 quality -- how do we get assurance of quality and what 15 are the controls that we have internally on quality?

16 It's got to be some kind of a feedback process that 17 doesn't exist currently.

18 This is not offered as a criticism, but only 19 a constructive one to the staff because I think that i

20 we have fine people doing an excellent job, but I l

21 don't see that we have the necessary feedback and i

1 j

l 22 reviews internally that we should have to assure l

l 23 ourselves that what we think we have done, we actually l

i

~

24 have done.

1 l

l 25 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Well, that's a good r>oint.

NEAL R. GROSS court REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHoDE ($ LAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASH!NGToN, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600 L _ _ -- _

< e....., ~ :. -.c.

..4 43_

4

[* ' '

L1-I think self-assessment.i s 1 always in order.

I'm.not 2-

.sure, are we treading - on the IG's ground there, l..

3' Counselor?

L

4~

MR. PARLER:

I don't think so.

5

' CHAIRMAN CARR:

Okay.

6 MR. PARLER:

The IG's ground is principally 7

. focused on wrongdoing and audits.

But I would think 8

that what the Commissioner --

9 CHAIRMAN CARR:

This is kind of an audit.

10 MR. PARLER:

is talking about is a much 11 more routine, across-the-board --

~

12 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Right.

H

.13 MR. PARLER:

-- thing where you have a much 14 more early warning indication that would typically 15 come up when the IG got involved in it.

But even if

'16 '

we are treading on the IG's ground a little bit, the 17 IG's ground in that area is not exclusive in any 18 event.

-19 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Okay.

But I agree that 20 self-assessment is obviously -- we know --

21 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

I'm not talking about

- 22 an ad hoc thing, you know.

That's the way IG works.

23 I'm talking about a routine follow through checkup --

24 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Just preparing for'the Synar 25 hearing, it's obvious that we've got a lot of things NEAL R, GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE 15 LAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

.- M. : g;

?.[

z1

. we haven' t' really cleaned up,behind,.: waste being one 2

of - them.

And I put out a little -- we.made up a 3

'little list of ' about 22 items that we ' agreed to do 4

either getting ready for.that hearing or as a result 5

of the hearing which I'll send'you a copy of the list 6.

so you'll know the kinds of things.

But we've got--

7 I'm sure that any time you pull those threads that 8

hard, you'll come up with things that we could do

~

9-

-better.

As the former Chairman always like to say, 10 there's always room for improvement.

11 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Well, I keep saying in 12

'my speeches that the Kaizen approach of the Japanese 13 unending quest for improvement, self-improvement, is 14 something that I think ue should be doing too, 15 internally.

We ask our licensees to do it in their 16 quest.for excellence and I think we should be doing it 17 ourselves.

18 CHAIRMAN CARR:

A t.

the next meeting We're 19-going to get some suggestion from our employees, I 20 think, that we can listen to.

21 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Good.

22 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Anything else?

23 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Nope.

24 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Jim?

25 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

One quick topic.

On NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005

(?02) 232-6600 i

,; ;n +,;.

3 4g L

/

'l the Clean Air..Act we made a pretty convincing case, I

.I 2

-thought, to OMB that we ought to -- Congress ought to 3

~ decouple'the EPA authority from ours and eliminate the-

~4-overlap.

That might be one that we'd like to talk at

.m 5

the next meeting and see what kind of follow-up we'd 6

like to pursue.

It seems to me it's a sound idea to 7

-take the bull by the-horns.

We're now to the point 8

where in the next'six months, maybe shorter than that 9.

depending on what the EPA's deadline is, that their 10

' regulation is going to come out on the street.

If we 11 haven't worked out the differences, 'we may have 12 problems.

I thought the package that we sent over to 13 OMB was well done in a short period of time.

It 14' really was a very persuasive case that the time has 15

-come to eliminate the overlapping.

16' CHAIRMAN CARR:

Yes, that ball is in my 17 court. 'Let me see if I can --

18 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

With things moving 19 on.

'20 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Administrator Riley said 21 he'd get back to me, but he hasn't yet.

But he's got 22 a lot on his plate over there.

I'll see what I can do 23 as far as --

24 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

One option we might 25 want to take a look at with things moving on the Hill, HEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTER $ AND TRANSCRIBER $

1323 RHODE ISLAND AYENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

q[ w

- :c 1

h

?.

q y 'l '+.

t,-

-46 j#'

pipf l 1'.

and since we'didn'.t'get our suggestionEincluded.in the:

...OMB: package Lis ito send.it. on' up.directly and get that.

2 3

debate going on"-the ' Hill so that "as. they consider 4~

-clean air.. legislation, we've got ourl oar in the water.

[5-

. CHAIRMAN CARR:

All right.. 'We'll give that l

1[

'6L some thought too.

1 L

7 What else?'

b.

COMMISSIONER CURTISS:

That's it'for me.

8 9

CHAIRMAN.CARR:

Anybody'else?

-10 ~

COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

I think it's' good idea-L

.11 to have~a meeting to --

12;

CHAIRMAN CARR

Counselor?

A 13 MR. PARLER:

I don't have.any comments.

14 CHAIRMAN CARR:

Thank you.

' I 15 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Look forward t.o the 16 next one.

17-CHAIRMAN CARR:

Well, how often.is when' we 18 get together and weekly you can --

19 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

No, weekly is too --

20 CHAIRMAN CARR:

They'll be shorter weekly.

.21 C. COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

Weekly is too often.

22 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:

Not weekly.

'23 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:

I would think about 24 once a month, t*

25 CHAIRMAN CARR:

On occession.

How is that?

l NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

m-

-4'. <%+}

e

,,. o, H%"~

.1 ~

COMMISSIONER" ROBERTS:

On occasion.

1, g-l' 2~

CHAIRMAN CARR:

On occasion?

So be it; 1.

l-k

.3.

Ve. stand. adjourned.

m 4

' (Whereupon,.at-9:21 a.m.,

the above-entitled 5-matter-was adjourned.)-'

c~,

s a

$4 I

e t

HEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBER 5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

g_

l : i; -- i * -:

[_ y, a

, CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER This 1s to. certify that the attached events of a meeting of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Concission entitled:

+

TITLE OF MEETING: COLLEGIAL DISCUSSION OF ITEMS OF COMMISSIONER INTERE! T PLACE OF MEETING: ROCKVILLE, MARYLAND DATE OF MEETING:. AUGUST 15, 1989 were transcribed by ine. I further certify that said transcription is accurate and complete, to the best of my ability, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing events.

)

0LO

. > /74 /.

gg1 vu Reporter's name:

Peter Lynch

'r' 9

9 i

NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBER $

1323 RHODE 15 LAND AVENUE, N.W.

(202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C.

20005 (202) 232-6600

_.j

Retrieved from "https://kanterella.com/w/index.php?title=ML20246D950&oldid=3905675"