ML20245G531
| ML20245G531 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 08/03/1989 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8908160072 | |
| Download: ML20245G531 (87) | |
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@f "' ' LUNITED' STATES OF AMERICA NdCLEAR REGOLATDRY CUMMIS SION-n 1
ffh6l BRIEFING ON NRC THERMAL-HYDRAULIC RESEARCH PROGRAM
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Da(6l AUGUST 3, 1989 PageS:
68 PAGES NEALR.GROSSANDCO.,INC.
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, Northwest Washington, D.C.
20005 (202) 234-4433 8908160072 890003 If:
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DISCLAIMER gy This is an unofficial transcript of a meeting of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission held on August 3, 1989, in the Commission's office at One White Flint North, Rockville, Maryland.
The meeting was open to public attendance and observation.
This transcript
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has not been reviewed, corrected or edited, and it may contain inaccuracies.
The transcript is intended solely for general informational purposes.
As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is not part of the formal or informal record of decision of the matters discussed.
Expressions of opinion in this transcript do not necessarily reflect final determination or beliefs.
No pleading or other paper may be filed with the Commission in any proceeding as the result of, or addressed to, any statement or argument contained herein, except as the Commission may authorize.
HEAL R. GROSS court REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RNoDE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.
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20005 (202) 232-6600
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_. p UNITED' STATES,OF AMERICA.
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION
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.. BRIEFING ON NRC THERMAL-HYDRAULIC RESEARCH PROGRAM
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PUBLIC MEETING Nuclear Regulatory Commission One White Flint North Rockville,. Maryland' Thursday, August 3,-1989
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The Commission met in open session, pursuant-to. notice, at 2:30 p.m., Kenneth M.
Carr, Chairman, presiding.
COMMISSIONERS'PRESENT:
KENNETH M. CARR, Chairman of the Commission THOMAS M. ROBERTS, Commissioner KENNETH C. ROGERS, Commissioner JAMES R. CURTISS, Commissioner NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W
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2 STAFF AND' PRESENTERS SEATED AT THE COMMISSION TABLE:
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SAMUEL J. CHILK, Secretary A:> -
WILLIAM C.
PARLER, General Counsel
' JAMES TAYLOR, Deputy Executive Director for Operations ERIC'S. BECKJORD, Director, Office of'Research BRI AN - W.
- SHERON, Director, Division of Systems-Research, NRR LOUIS M.
SHOTKIN, Chief, Reactor and Plant Systems Branch, Division of Systems Research, NRR NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W (202) N WASHINGTON. D C. 20005 (202) 232-6600
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1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S Lpq.1 2
2:30 p.m.
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3 CHAIRMAN'CARR:
Good afternoon, ladies and 4
gentlemen.
5 The purpose of today's meeting is for the 6
NRC staff to brief the Commission on ' the thermal-7 hydraulic research program.
The Advisory Committee on 8'
Reactor Safeguards commented on the program by a 9
letter dated June 15th, 1989 and.the Commission-would 10 like the staff to specifically address those comments.
11 Copies.of the slide presentation are 12
'available at'the entrance to the meeting room.
13 Do my fellow Commissioners have any opening 14 comments?
15 If not, Mr. Taylor, you may proceed.
16 MR.
TAYLOR:
Good afternoon, sir.
To my 17 left is Eric Beckjord, the Director of Research and to 18 my right, Brian Sheron and Lou Shotkin, also from the 19 Office of Research, 20 This has been a very important program 21 within the Office of Reseeirch and has given us many 22 good results which we have used in regulatory 23 application.
24 I'll now ask Eric to start the formal 25 briefing.
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'MR.'BECKJORD:
Thank you.
12
- M r.- Chairman, nuclear engineering is the
'sf beneficiary of technologies in heat transfer and fluid 3
4-
- flow, that have their roots -long before nuclear 5
reactors.
Nuclear engineering itself. has invested 6
great resources first in the problems of critical heat 1
7 flux at reactor fuel elements and determination of 8
steady state conditions of reactors sin. normal 9
operation.
Second in the problems of transient 10 performance of reactors and third in their performance 11 during loss-of-coolant accidents and the functioning 12 of emergency core cooling systems.
13 NRC research and the AEC before it initiated 14 the loss-of-coolant and the emergency core cooling 15 system work and that was more than 20 years ago.
That 16' effort in terms of experimental confirmation of 17 emergency core cooling system performance has been 18 very successful in terms of the regulatory needs which 19 have been defined in'the research philosophy.
20 Today, we're, in a sense, declaring victory 21 in these efforts, specifically the major experiments 22 are done, proposals been developed and it's now time 23 to propose what is needed in thermal-hydraulic 24 research to maintain the technical base, for surely l
25 that base will be needed as long as reactors are j
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operating.
.m 2
In fact, we've already moved to make major 3
changes, scaling annual expenditures down from a few 4
years ago at a level of about $20 million to something 5
of the order of $5 million annually in another year.
6 There are other higher risk matters and, 7
hence, higher priority matters to turn our attention 8
to.
I mention a few of these.
They include the 9
revised severe accident research program, accident 10 management developments, human factors, the expansion 11 of reactor aging research, radiation protection and 12 health effects and I don't mention the expense to 13 complete the risk studies in 1150 which have exceeded 14 their early cost projections.
15 In a time of declining research budgets 16
- overall, it is the reduction of expenditures in l
17 thermal-hydraulics that has made it possible to fund 13 these other activities, in some cases in total, in 19 some cases in part.
And this is properly done, in my 20 opinion.
21 Today, you're going to heer in some detail 22 of the research plans for maintaining thermal-23 hydraulic technology at an appropriate level so that 24 NRC will have the skills available when needed in 25 terms of people and operating codes for analysis, t
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- codes such. as ' TRAC,' RELAP, and RAMONA and there are M.y 2L many others.
W 3-The thermal-hydraulic skills today are.being 4
used in these new ef f orts. as 'well to. support -the 5
severe accident-research program and the accident 6
management. program.
And I believe this will continue.
F 7
to be the case.
8 This'is'not to say that nothing -~ remains to-9 be done.
The advanced reactors,.as they are.
10 developed, will pose new. problems and issues in the
'll
. operation of natural. circulation systems and in what.I 12 will call self-energized safety systems because I'
13 don't like the adjective " passive" in this context.
14 NRC. should watch these developments carefully to 15 determine to what extent and depth additional research 16-may be needed.
17 I believe the program that we are proposing 18 to you based on the $108 million fiscal year 1990 19 research budget and including a few small-scale 20 testing loops at. universities and also code 21 maintenance, will maintain the capability to make an 22 appropriate judgment and response on these new issues 23 as they arise, in particular as the details of the 24 advanced reactor designs unfold.
.25 With that, I'd like to turn it over to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005 (202) 232M (202) N
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1 Doctor Sheron.
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2 DOCTOR SHERON:
Thank you.
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(Slide)
If I could have the first slide,
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4 please.
1 I
5 Just quickly on this slide, I'll go through i
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a brief history of where we've been.
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i 7
As Eric said, we've been developing these
)
8 codes.
I have 15 plus years.
Twenty is probably even 9
a better estimate.
We've gone from -- the code 10 development and verification effort has gone from the i
11 large break loss-of-coclant accident from the early 12
'70s to right before TMI when we started to focus in 13 on a small break loss-of-coolant accidents.
TMI sort 14 of fixed our attention on that and we spent 15 considerable effort making sure we understood small 16 break behavior in light water reactors.
17 In the early
'80s, there was a number of 18 transients that occurred at plants.
I believe Saint 19 Lucie had one, Davis-Besse, several others that 20 focused our attention now on transients and our 21 ability to understand and be able to calculate 22 transient performance of these plants.
23 And then, most recently, in particular with 24 regard to accident management, we've been focusing in 25 on making sure that these codes can -ind ar#> capable of j
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predicting the. front end of the risk dominance severe j
2 accident sequences.
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3-Based on all of this, we've conc 1'uded that i
4 the codes have, in fact, reached an' acceptable. level 5
of maturity for-calculating' performance of the current 6
generation ; of light water reactors.-
Basically, this 7
conclusion is reached because we don't believe that
'8 any more major changes in-these codes are going to 9
substantially change our understanding of performance 10 or the consequences of accidents.
11
. We've also, in reaching this conclusion,
~
12' went forward and revised the ECCS' rule, as you know.
13 We have quantified the uncertainty in the large break
- 14 LOCA analysis using a method that has been extensively 15' peer reviewed.
We are now in the process. of -
' 16
' confirming the applicability of that method by_
17 applying it to a small break.
That should be finished 18 within about a year, I believe.
19 (Slide)
Could I have the next slide,
- 20 please?
21-Based - on this history, what we've done is 22.
we've sat down and we've asked ourselves what are-oar 23 planning and direction objectives over the next 24 foreseeable future, considering that most of our major 25 experimental programs are finishing up.
LOFT, as you l
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know, is finished up.
SEMISCALE has been closed down.
C10.
2 The international facilities we're involved in, in 3
l 3
particular the 2D/3D program is finishing up in a 4
couple months.
So, we had to ask ourselves the 5
question, where are we heading with the program now?
6 We identified some major overall objectives.
7 The first is that the Agency needs to maintain a 8
thermal-hydraulic analysis capability at a minimum 9
level.
The question, obviously, is what is a minimum 10 level?
We'll talk about that in a little bit.
11 The other is to take these computer codes, 12 which we have developed over the years, and tc apply 13 them to reactor issues in a proactive fashion.
Past j
14 issues we've looked at, you'll see listed here, are 15 obviously the loss-of-coolant accident.
We've used 16 the codes to help us in coming up with a pressurized 17 thermal shock rule.
We looked at the consequences of 18 the TMI
- accident, the major USI-845 decay heat 19 removal, the codes were used.
It has helped us with 20 the ATUS rule.
Most recently we are looking at the 21 BWR stability for NRR as a result of the La Salle 22 event.
23 (Slide)
Next slide, please.
24 Cli AIRMAN CARR:
The consequences of the 25 Three Mile accidont, you say you used them.
What du l
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10 1-you mean the consequence?
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DOCTOR SHERON:
I'm sorry.
Not in terms of kg 3
going into the severe accident part, but the -- in the 4
beginning of the accident there was the question, as 5
you know, about the coolant pump operation and 6
understanding the consequences of tripping the reactor i
7 coolant pumps part way through an accident.
And the I
i 8
codes were an instrumental part of the staff's 9
resolution of that issue.
10 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Okay.
11 DOCTOR SHERON:
(Slide) On the next slide, 12 what we've done is we've gone further from our overall 13 objectives to specific objectives.
And the first one 14 here is to maintain a capability within the Agency for
'N 15 thermal-hydraulic analysis of light water reactors.
16 These needs were embodied in a letter from NRR to the 17 Office of Research in 1984.
The major areas we 18 requested that the codes be able to address and 19 maintain capability for is in the area of operating q
20 reactor events.
In particular being able -- when an i
21 event does occur at a reactor, we are normally asked 22 many times to do "what if" calculations, what if this 23 happened, what if that happened, and the like, and to 1
24 demonstrate that we understand it.
So, we have 25 developed these codes with the understanding that they i
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..should be'able.to calculate:these type ~of events.
2 Licensing issues, many times a licensee will 3
come in with an amendment to-their reactor in which we 4
may question the. proposed response that they've l
5 calculated.
We may with to independently confirm the 6
-licensee's analysis.
So we would use the codes to 7
calculate these changes'in the plant and independently 8
reach the same conclusion the licensee'has.
9 And then lastly, we want to maintain a 10 capability for these codes to help us in more generic 11
- areas, as 'I said before, the front end of severe 12
. accident e' vents.
13' The second objective is we need to maintain 14.
.a cadre of experts, both in-house and at our 15 contractors, to achieve this capability in item'.1 16 above.
We also need to maintain a code development-17 and research activity at a minimum level.
And this is 18 necessary first to ensure that the codes ci t e 19 acceptable for predicting-some of the advanced LWR and 20 CANDU designs that we understand are in the wings now.
21 Also to review new information which is still being 22 generated, primarily overseas now, to ensure that 23 nothing that is learned over there would invalidate 24 our current understanding of the codes or their 25 ability to calculate plant behavior.
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.And then.' lastly,- we need' to maintain this 2
activity.to maintain a, cadre.of experts.- Very plainly.
.. Q' 3'
put,'if our contractors.at the laboratories-that are-
'4
+ responsible:for developing and maintaining these codes
'5 doEnot have active and interesting work,. they will 4
6
.mostly likely leave the program, in which' case then.we 7.
don' t'. ' have : any experts.
There's a real. benefit. to 8
that because NRR typically when an issue comes up, 9
they will turn to our contractors,.the expertise that 10
.we've had developed at the laboratory and are 11 maintaining,. and use them to work on. their - specific 12 problems.
So, if we lose this expertise, then NRR 13 also loses their experts as well.
L-
.14 (Slide)
Next slide, please.
r 15 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Well, are we the source sole y
16
-- sole source of funding for;those experts?-
'17 DOCTOR - SHERON:
In-the thermal-hydraulic
.18 area?
Yes'.
I don't believe the Department of Energy 19.
has very much funding in that area.
20 CHAIRMAN CARR:
What do they do for a 21 living, I guess, is what I'm asking.
l-22 DOCTOR SHERON:
Who's that, the --
23 CHAIRMAN CARR:
The experts, I mean.
You 24 mean if we kill the contracts, those guys are out of 25 work?
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~ 1-DOCTOT.. SHERON:
They'll probably move to JW
' 2' other. programs.
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-3 MR. TAYLOR:
They go to - other work within 4
the lab system, I'm sure.
5 CHAIRMAN CARR:
All right.
6 MR. BECKJORD:
There's'a lot of competition
'7 in places like Sandia and Los Alamos for those people 8
with those talents.
9 CHAIRMAN CARR:
But they'll still exist and 10 be working on the same kind of problems, I would 11 assume.
12 DOCTOR SHERON:
Many move over to like the 13 Star Ware'. program, for example.
14 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Okay.
15 DOCTOR SHERON:
On the next slide, number 5.
16 One of the things we want to do is a new 17 initiative here to help maintain capability within the 18
- Agency, is to establish and maintain low-cost i
19 experimental capability at universities through the 20 construction and operation of scaled loops 21 representing major U.S.
reactor types.
We've done 22 this in the past at the University of Maryland.
23 There 's ' a scale loop of a Babcock and Wilcock lower l
24 loop design, which we've used as part of this overall 25 MIST program which is basically to understand the B&W i
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plant behaviorf under small break conditions.
It "x
2 helped us very much in terms
'o f scaling and
' bs) 3 understanding-the scale. factors involved from going to 4-a basically a full-height, full-pressure, but very 5
thin type of loop, skinny tubes and everything and the j
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like.
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We had substantial success with that.
We've 8
also ascertained that the results from a small-scale 9
loop can, in' fact, be used very ef fectively in code 10 validation and verification.
11 We've proposed to maintain an experimental 12 capability. with the Agency to construct additional 13 loops at ' universities over the next several years.
14 We're;now examining and discussing with NRR what type 15 of: reactors these ought to represent.
We've have some 16 suggestions that.maybe they should really look at the 17-more advanced designs that are being proposed.
These
'18 loops can be built relatively cheaply, usually for 19 within $1 million and they can be run even cheaper, 20 usually about $150,000.00 a year, primarily because 21 you're paying just for the professor and the gr ad uet t e 22 students.
23 A side benefit too is that we now have a 24 source of graduate students that will be versed in 25 thermal-hydraulics and hopefully will perhaps even NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE N W.
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consider working, you know, for the government or for gg 2
our contractors.
So, we maintain' the expertise in W
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3 that way.
4 Number 5 is we want to retain involvement in 5
international thermal-hydraulic activities.
- However, 6
I would put the caveat on that it's only provided that l
7 our resource commitment is minimized.
By that I mean 8
we don't intend to really get into any large financial 9
commitments, long-term commitments with large 10 facilities.
And two is that we expect to see a 11 substantial benefit to the Commission by being 12 involved in these loops or these programs.
13 And then lastly, we've developed these i
14 codes.
We want to apply them rather than just have 15 them sit around,-now that we've developed them, and 16 systematically -- use them to systematically assess 17 reactor behavior, looking at operating reactors, the 18 advanced LWRs, the CANDU, the PIUS.
Hupefully work in 19 a proactive mode, so perhaps we can flush our problems l
20 before they actually -- before they actually happen.
21 (Slide)
On the next slide, and we've put, I 22 think, one that's a little probably clearer up on the 23 screen.
This is primarily just to show you, as Eric 24 said, how we have projected the funding.
You'll see 25 it is teaching an asymptotic level as we go in th.-
out J
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years beyond
'90.
Right around
'80, I think that 2
was -- LOFT had just run its first test, I think a 3
couple years ago.
And -- you know, since then, what 4
you're seeing is the phased shutdown of many of the 5
experimental facilities.
6 (Slide)
If you turn the page to slide 7,
7 what you'll see is what we project as the costs 8
necessary to maintain this thermal-hydraulic 9
capability within the agency at a minimum level in the 10 out years.
This is, say, beyond FY
'90.
11 You'll note that areas we have.
There's 12 code maintenance.
We have about three or four 13 separate thermal-hydraulic codes which have to be 14 maintained.
We have the TRAC code, the RELAP code, as 15 Eric said the RAMONA code.
We also have a plant 16 analyzer at Brookhaven.
l 17 The scaled facility development, these are 18 the university loops we were talking about, these 19 would be built over a period of several years.
So 20 we're not building them all at once, at one time.
21 On the applications area --
J 22 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Well, you're building one a j
23 year plus, I guess, or at least building one and
{
l 24 running one, huh?
i 25 DOCTOR SHERON:
Well, I don't --
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CHAIRMAN CARR:
You said it's about $ 2.
e, 2
million to build one and you're doing a million and a
%l 3
half..per year.
4 DOCTOR SHERON:
Yes, roughly once they're--
5 yes, once we've started the construction on them.
6 CHAIRMAN CARR:
The question that comes to 7
my mind.is how do you decide where to build those?
Is 8
it a competitive contract?
9 DOCTOR SHERON:
It would be a competitive 10 contract.
We would go out for a request for 11 proposals.
12 On reactor applications, the advanced -- I'm 13 sorry, the operating reactor issues, you'll note we've 14 continued funding there and we've allocated funding 15 for performing analyses on the advanced reactors that 16 are expected to be coming in as well as the CANDU 17 design.
18 So you can see we've -- you know, this 1
19 totals up, we're expecting, right around $6-.75 million 20 a year and depending upon what's needed, I think, out 21 in the future years, in particular for the advanced 22
- reactors, that number could either go down or up, 23 depending.
24 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Let me make sure I
25 understood what you told me on the competitive.
The I
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universities bid against each other for these 2
facilities?
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DOCTOR SHERON:
Well, we would go out with a 4
request for proposals.
We would identify what the 5
research is, in other words the -- you know, we would 6
ask someone to come in with a proposal to build a 7
facility and operate it for a number of years.
We 8
would hopefully receive --
9 CHAIRMAN CARR:
So it might not go to a 10 university?
11 DOCTOR SHERON:
I guess not.
If someone 12 else came in and could con,petitively bid, we would 13 have to consider it.
14 MR.
BECKJORD:
I do think that the costs 15 though favor a university in this kind of an activity.
16 CHAIRMAN CARR:
I guess what worries me is 17 do they favor a particular university?
18 DOCTOR SHERON:
We have no we have none 19 in mind, if that's what you mean.
20 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Well, if these teans dre out 21 there we want to keep together, why aren't they 22 already in business, I guess is my problem.
You tell 23 me these guys are out there and we've got to keep 24 funding them, but it's going to be a competitive bid i
25 and we don't know who's going to get it.
So --
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DOCTOR - SHERON:
I think I think you're 9'.
'2'
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misunderstanding;a little bit what we had in nind.
d:
'3 CHAIRMAN CARR:
I must-have misunderstood-1 1
4 what you told me.
5:
DOCTOR SHERON:
The basic work on analyzing 6
-- for example analyzing operating events, analyzing.-
7-
-these - new reactors, maintaining the codes and doing
-l 8
minor development work would be most likely maintained
- 9
'at the laboratories, okay, which would probably be.
4 1
10 Idaho and Brookhaven.
The experimental. work'would.be l
11 done at universities.
Now, normally what we would do 12 13 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Well, I wouldn't think that 14 one of these cracker jack guys.we got is going to be 15-very interested'in just maintaining codes.
'16 DOCTOR SHERON:
No, no, no.
They would--
17 the data that is obtained from the university loops or 16.
these loops that we want to build, okay, would be fed
'19 into the code maintainers and developers.
They, in 20 turn, would analyze the data, determine if the codes 21 needed any more improvement, propose making whatever 22 improvements were necessary.
We would also use them 23 in, I think, interesting areas such as the La Salle 24 event in which we are right now actively engaged with 25 NRR in doing the evaluation of BWR stability.
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~1 CHAIRMAN CARR: -Okay.
2 DOCTOR SHERON:
With that, I'm' going to let 3-Doctor-Shotkin walk through the details of our 4
programs.
5 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
(Slide)
If I could have 6_
.the next slide, slide number 8.
7 As we sat down to figure our plans for the 8
future, one of the major factors was that most. cif our 9
major thermal-hydraulic research programs are going to 10.
be completed by fiscal
'92.
We've already put lthat.
I 11
'out in a NUREG report.
For example, the computer 12
- codes, TRAC'and'RELAP, have been frozen, that is, no 13 new models have been put in since December of 1984.
14 They've gone.through a period of five years of 15 assessment through the international code assessment 16.
code, primarily.
They've been improved with models 17 and we're going to come out with the final versions of 18' these codes in December of this year.
This will 19
-complete all of our work in planned code development 20 for our major systems codes.
And this was something 21 that was started over 15 years ago.
- 22 These codes will have flexible capability.
23 That's one of their hallmarks.
You can change the 24
- noting, we can simulate all the current vendor 25 geometries, we can include the balance of plant.
We NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323.RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W.
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can' analyze a variety of' scenarios, those.that we know L %.
2'
.about, LOCA., those that we -- that might come up that' t
e/c '
3
.have'a lot of operator in -- actions or inactions',
4-multiple equipment failure that-would lead to risk 5
dominance' scenarios.
6 And we believe that our codes - that we 'll 7
come-out with at the end of this year, plus those that
~
8 have already been completed, give us sufficient
'9 capability and that no new systems code is needed at 10 this time as ACRS has recommended.
And ~ this is~where 11 we '-- one area where we disagree with the ACRS.
12 One area that we're starting now with these 13' codes is to' start evaluating the newer reactor designs 14 such as the 600 megawatt advanced reactors and-15 possibly starting to look at CANDU and maybe PIUS.
16 (Slide)
Another -- on the next slide --
d
.17 CHAIRMAN CARR:
While you're on that 18 previous sheet, who exercises configuration control 19
'over them, do we or --
20 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Each lab has a QA control 21 that they have established and they exercise the i
22 configuration control.
23 CHAIRMAN CARR:
And how many people around 24 the world would you say are using the current 25 versions?
1 1
)
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)
1.
' DOCTOR' 'SHOTKIN:
Every major ' nuclear lj OC 2
country..
ky '
.3 CHAIRMAN CARR:
S o,' - when ' you come 'out in 4
4 December
'89, is somebody going' to ensure that 5
everybody gets the updated. version?
6 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Oh, yes.
. We have the 7
international code assessment program, which I'll 8
cover later, that we have~about 14 countries that are 9
members.
Each ' one of them will get these codes and' 10 they're going to do the assessment for us over the 11 next'two years.
And if you're talking of interesting 12 work, this is something that we'd keep people for'at.
13 least another two years while these - codes are being 14 assessed.
15 CHAIRMAN CARR:
But we do have some method 16' of ensuring that everybody is using the same version?
17 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Absolutely, yes.
p 18' CHAIRMAN CARR:
Okay.
19 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
We're reasonably careful 20 with tha t.-
However, I should point out that if a 21 country has experts, and many of their experts have 22 been trained over here, and they want to go in and 23 make their own changes, we can tell them, " Don't call 24 it that, call it something else," but we can't stop 25 them from making changes.
We jus t don' t let them call l
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it the same code.
1 l
2 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Okay.
gg V
3 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
On slide number 9, another i
l 4
- I've gone through on the previous slide all of the 5
code programs that will be completed by
'92.
Most of 6
our testing will be finished by
'92.
A lot of it has 7
already been finished.
The 2D/3D project, which is 8
the -- this large-scale German, Japan, U.S.
- program, 9
will end in 1990.
This will give us a complete 10 database for use with the ECCS rule revision and we do 11 expect industry to start coming in with submittals on 12 this and they will be using this data to support their 13 submittals.
14 The ROSA-IV is a large-scale, small break
?
15 LOCA test facility, the world's largest small break 16 LOCA facility.
It's in Japan.
We have a cooperative 17 agreement with Jerry where they do testing that we 18 recommend, we end the Japanese r econunend.
This 19 testing program that they have will end in 1992 and we 20 do not plan any renewal of this agreement after that 21 date.
22 B&W testing, that is our last major domestic 23 testing program.
We have just finished testing in the 24 MIST facility this year, in 1989.
We're coming out 25 with a final report.
We are in the ptoerss of NEAL R. GROSS I
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negotiating with the B&W Owners Group for further
,q 2
testing in a once through steam generator geometry.
Q 3
We've spent the year coming up with recommendations we're in the process of finalizing 4
and now they 5
whether or not we go ahead with that program.
6 After that is done, there are no further J
7 testing needs identified, either for B&W or, for that 8
matter, any other of the existing geometries.
9 CHAIRMAN CARR:
When we're through with 10 these things, do we turn them down or do we mothball 11 them or --
12 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
I'll just -- I can give 13 examples.
Of the LOFT facility, when we finished 14 testing, we turned it over to the OECD and they ran 15 that for about five years as an international program.
16 There was a facility on the West Coast.
We called it 17 FIST, which was a mock-up of a GE reactor.
After we 18 got out of it, GE and DOE came in and then used that 19 to test out the natural circulation capability of the 20 new 600 megawatt design.
They renamed the facility 21 GIST.
And after they are finished with it, it's just 22 sitting there.
SEMISCALE has been sitting there.
23 We've been using the power supplies to do some other 24
- testing, but otherwise it's just sitting there l
25 decaying.
l l
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25 1
CHAIRMAN CARR:
Who owns them?-
I mean the
.7 y 2.
DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
We~do.
-We F 2.
3' government.
I.believe it's DOE that owns them.-
4' CHAIRMAN CARR:
DOE has the title?
Okay.
5 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
(Slide) _On.the next slide, 6
slide number 10, the second factor that we used. in
'7 making our plans for the future was to see what are 8
the requirements of the user offices.
Last year in 9
1988, we had a series of meetings at both the branch 10 level and the division director level with staff from 11
As a result of these 12 meetings, of the task group meetings, senior program 13
. review group meeting, we came up with a joint 14 recommendation of the entire NRC staff that would use 15
. this. : c apabili ty.
And the conclusion was that the 16 staff will continue to need independent expertise to 17 address transients in the operating' reactors that 18 exist today, both the PWRs and the BWRs.
i 19-The second ' major conclusion of this review 20 by the user offices was that the principal codes that 21 have been developed, and these are the two TRAC 22
- versions, one for PWRs, one for BWRs, the RELAP5 23 codes, RAMONA as well as the plant analyzer, these 24 should all be maintained for active use.
25 And the third major conclusion was th4t we NEAL R. GROSS l
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should. ' prepare these. codes - f or quick response
'Q? ^
2.
- capability f o r.
transients that might occur in pg
~
3-
' operating reactors.
One of these was to expand. the 4
number of input decks that are needed to generate 5
transients in these codes, to extend that up'to about 6
a base of about 25 representative input decks.
Right
- 7..
now we have about ten.
The number 25 comes from a 8
careful survey of all of the vendor geometries that 9
exist in the U.S.-today. and. grouping them together in
'10 plants of'similar kinds.
We could probably do a good 11 job on.any' transient that occurs _with about 25 input 12 decks.
13a CHAIRMAN CARR:
What is an input deck?
Is-3:
14 it really a deck of cards or is a computer tape or --
15 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Well, when I was. younger, 16 it used-to be a deck of cards.
Right now it's on a.
17 tape.
18 CHAIRMAN CARR:
But we still call it an 1
19 input-deck?
20 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Yes, we still do.
l 21 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Okay.
22 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
And it's what is needed to 23 generate a calculation on a computer code.
These 24 input decks are also being developed not only for 25 these representative plants but we're also doing work i
i NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W (202) 234 4433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005 (202) 232 4600 h_________
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a#
27-1
- f or. AEOD so' that they - can benchmark the simulators.
.k.
~2'
' that they have' at the NRC. technical training center.
U 3
We're: 'also-developing. input _ decks for each one of.
'4 those simulators.
5 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Now, the~ input deck itself-
'6' programs the computer so that it.looks like a reactor 7
plan?
8 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
That's correct.
9 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Okay.
10 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
(Slide)
'The next slide,
-i l
l
'11 number 11.
12
~ The third factor that we considered when we-13 made _our long-range plans was this need to maintain l
14 expertise to meet future Agency needs.
.As Doctor 15 Sheron has said, just telling a guy that he's there to j
16 be - an, expert in. the future isn't going to keep him-l 17-very long.
18 What we've done is in 1987 we formed a 19 thermal-hydraulic technical support center at Idaho 20 where we made a commitment to provide support, 21.
baseline support, for people at this center with the and this came out' as NUREG-1244, with the 22 23 understanding that when a priority issue came up they j
24 would put aside this deferable research and work on 1
l
'25 the priority issue.
And I can tell you over the last i
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2 8..
i L1 two. years, ' just about everything ' they've been'doing 2
.has been new priority issues..
For' example, working on h.M%'ig
- 3, the BWR stability issue of - La Salle.
We had to
'4 develop an accident ' management research plan and we u
L 5
told them to stop work and help us with that.
6'
. CHAIRMAN CARR:
So, f or. 'a fixed amount of
~
7
. money,;we have priority use on a bunch of technicians' 8.
and. equipment.
And if we're not using them, they.can-9 contract out to anybody?
10 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
No, we give them baseline
.g.
11.
activities to work on these developing the input 12 decks.
13 CHAIRMAN CARR:
So, GE can't hire them or--
'14 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
They're dedicated.
That-
'15
'doesn't mean that they don't actually switch people 16 around and do other projects.
l 17 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
How' large is that 18 group that you're talking about?
19-DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
For the current funding 20 right now, we have about eight people.
21 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
Are they all 22 professionals?
I mean thet's eight professionals?
23 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Yes, eight professionals, 24 eight engineers.
25 CHAIRMAN CARR:
What I guess what we asked NEAL R. GROSS l
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.1 for is we. asked for eight dedicated bodies that we can
.,r5 2
use and you,say we're managing to keep them busy.
h$?!
3-DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Yes, for'right now.
4' CHAIRMAN CARR:
But if we-didn't keep them 5
busy, somebody else could use them, I assume.
- 6 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Who?
For another project?
7-Well --
8-CHAIRMAN CARR:
I msan a guy designing a 9
reactor plant could hire them.
10 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
DOE -- let's say at Idaho, 11 they've been trying to get some production reactors 12 there.
So, these people would help out on that.
13-CHAIRMAN CARR:
Sure.
Okay.
There would be 14 enough to keep them interested, I would think.
15 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
But then,. When we have a 16 priority ' issue, what we say we can't go in there 17 and say, "Give us these three guys."
We can ask for 18 three bodies, but we wouldn't know which oues we'd 19 get.
20 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Yes, I understand.
So, what 21 we're discussing is how many guys or is it required to 22 fund that cadre, is it three or eight or 15 or --
23 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Right now we have about l
24 eight at that lab.
We think a total cadre of about i
25 15, including some work that we have going ori at other i
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30 1
labs that will eventually transfer to Idaho, would be 2
appropriate.
3; u.;
3 CHAIRMAN CARRm:
Okay.
4 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Some of this baseline 5
research that we have going on at this technical 6
support center includes the three elements recommended 7
by the ACRS in their letter.
These three elements 8
- are, analysis of plant transients that occur in 9
operating reactors.
Second is the preparation of 10 these input decks that I've mentioned, and the third 11.
is analysis of special transients, those that have 12 been and continue to be of particular interest.
13 Some examples here that we are working on or 14 will be working on in the next few years are feed and 15 bleed scenarios This has direct application to 16 accident management.
It's one of the most important 17 accident management strategies.
Another accident i
18 management one is secondary depressurization 19 scenarios.
And finally, natural circulation is again 20 what could happen during a severe accident where you 21 lose your pumps.
The question is how well do we know 22 that natural circulation will cool the reactor core?
23 We feel that we've already generated enough data on 24 the thermal-hydraulics program to come up with some 25 sort of judgment on that and we'll be putting that NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS I
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1 1
together.
2 As I mentioned, when a priority issue arise, j
?q
. :,t 3
and I'll give some examples on viewgraph 13, we do j
i 4
delay this baseline research.
{
S So, in closing on this slide, I want to 6
point out, since you asked about ACRS, we do agree 7
with their recommendation of the three baseline j
8 elements on this viewgraph.
9 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Now, let me go back to the 10 15 guys.
What do they charge us, roughly, $100,000 a j
i 11 year per --
12 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
It's about $150,000 per 13 year.
14 CHAIRMAN CARR:
$150,000.
15 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
That includes computer 16 time.
17 CHAIRMAN CARR:
So, we're talking $2.25 18 million per year to keep the team togethet, 19 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Something like that, yes.
20 CHAIRMAN CARE:
Okay.
21 DOCTOR SHOTRIN:
(Slide)
On the next 22 viewgraph, 12, again the previous one was just 23 maintain expertise.
This one now talks about 24 maintaining testing expertise, which is one of the I
25 factors that we considered in making these plans.
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-1 First.of all, we would continue to. seek and i
i 2
support cooperative'. programs ~ with both international'
~
3' organizations and domestic industry.
As you know, we 4
have 'several of these cooperative international f
5.
programs. already, like 2D/3D and ROSA-IV.
The MIST 1
6 program was a cooperative program with industry.
The i
7 one that's coming up that's a proposal by Germany is j
8
.to continue testing in their facility under the 2D/3D 9
program but do-some accident management testing after 10 the 2D/3D program ends.
And they have made a proposal 11' to us which'we are'considering.
-.12 Another way that we want to maintain testing 1.3 expertise that's already been mentioned is these low 14 pressure scaled loops at universities.
This is based 15
'on the favorable experience that we've had with the-16
.B&W loop at the University of Maryland.
We're going 17' to plan to go.out with a RFP to do-some of this work-
- 18 at universities and if they come back with a proposal l
19 that they don't want to do a loop, that they want to 20 do some separate effects testing, we'll. consider that l
21 also.
22 CHAIRMAN CARR:
What drives which loop you l
23 pick?
l 24 DOCTOR SHERON:
I think our
- users, 25 discussions with our users.
As I said, we had a I
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,~
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meeting..two days ago, or was. it yesterday, I can't
.I
]
2
' remember which, with the NRR and AEOD.
And we 3
discussed 1this a little bit.
There seemed to be an L
4 indica tion 'that - perhaps rather than build, for l
1 5
example, a loop that represents a Westinghouse or'a CE.
f-6' design, we should look towards a loop that perhaps 7
.looks like a 600 megawatt,' the small advanced' design.
8 coming in.
9 What we need to do --
1 10 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Do we know what that looks 11-like well enough.to model it yet?
12 DOCTOR SHERON:
Probably not.
Probably.not.
13 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Yes.
14-DOCTOR SHERON:
But that's, I think, a
15 consideration we have to make.
16 CHAIRMAN CARR:
I'm trying to tie it to if 17 we know we've got a problem in somebody's loop, I 18 assume that's what we had built first to try to figure 19 out what the problem was.
That may be a dumb 20 assumption on my part, but I'm trying to figure out--
21 when you build that loop you have something in mind, I 22 would assume, that you're trying to solve.
23 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
v es, The loop at Maryland 24 was built because we were putting a lot of effort on 25 F,&W geometry with the MIST facility and we needed some NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005 (202) 232-6600 (2/2) 2M
t-4 34 1
1:
scaling information and we built a similar loop at
,p 2
Maryland to get the scaling information.
That loop we t.-
3 plan to maintain.
So we'll have something sitting 4
there that can B&W geometry.
We've actually never 5
done any testing in exactly Combustion Engineering 6
geometry.
So that's one candidate, is to have a loop 7
-- to build a loop for the CE geometry, test it and 8
see if the behavior is as we expect, similar to the 9
Westinghouse geometry.
]
10 What is probably of more interest is to 11 build a loop for one of these advanced designs that 12 are coming on.
As I said, GE has already tested it 13 out in this GIST facility out on the West Coast.
We 14 would like to do some independent testing of our own 15 on that geometry.
16 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Well, it seems to me that 17 we've got enough problems out there with things in 18 plants that vibrate and break and wear out that we 19 don't really understand why some do and some don't.
20 Doesn't that generate a desire to build something to 21 figure out what's happening in there?
22 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Yes.
Yes, that does, but 23 we would have to have a fairly strong user request in 24 order to do something like that.
25 DOCTOR SHERON:
Are you referring to like NEAL R. GROSS COUkT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W (202) 234 4433 WASHINGTON. D C. 20005 (202) 232-6600
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1 1
flow induced vibration or --
2 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Yes.
I don't know what I'm g3
'G I don't know what causes them to break.
3 referring
- well, I guess i t s the 4
- But, for instance, the 5
sensors that go in and out of the core on their
)
l 6
little -- and we've got these tubes that sit -- the i
7 thimble tubes.
Like I think it's South Texas that's 8
got a problem with vibration that happened in Europe 9
or something.
I forgot which the plant is.
But it 10 looks like that's a problem that nobody knows how to 11 solve.
In fact, some plants have it, some don't, so 12 we don't'even know what the problem is.
13 I don't understand why that's not a valid 14 research item, but maybe it's not ours.
15 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
As we go down -- that's one 16 of the things that ACRS has mentioned that we get 17 involved in and we do intend to put out a broad Agency 18 announcement for some of these what I would en11 19 smaller research items, or somsthing that perhaps a 20 small company or university might help us solve.
I 21 don't know whether we need a big facility to look at 22 that.
23 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Yes.
I guess I'm trying to 24 figure out what the criteria are for figuring out 25 which one of these loops to bui3d.
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DOCTOR SHERON:
Basically it's going to be it's going to be a f3 2
the -- it's going it's not Q
3 matter of which type of geometries do we have the 4
least confidence in our codes to calculate.
5 CHAIRMAN CARR:
So the loops are really 6
going to be for code verification rather than problem 7
solving?
8 DOCTOR SHERON:
Well., the codes are used for 9-the problem solving.
You cannot take a small-scale 10 loop and go directly and apply it to a large reactor.
11 CHAIRMAN CARR:
I guess you're -- okay.
12 MR. BECKJORD:
I don't think we want to use 13 our resources to get into every design problem that 14
- develops, I have to say that I think these thimble
(
15 tube problems are design problems that I think the 16 vendors ought to address.
17 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Well, but you're using the 18 codes to check the designs, aren't you?
19 MR. BECKJORD:
Yes.
I 20 CHAIRMAN CARR:
You would think the code
)
21 would turn up those problems.
22 DOCTOR SHERON:
These codes will not I
23 calculate something as specific as say a flow induced j
i 1
24 vibration or water seam or the like which would i
1 25 vibrate.
They're just too -- too crude.
l l
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CHAIRMAN CARR:
So, are they flow and heat
)
a 2.
transfer mostly?
j 3
DOCTOR SHERON:
Yes.
l.
4 CHAIRMAN CARR:
All right.
j i
5 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
(Slide)
If I can go to the j
6 next slide, number 13, the fourth factor that we used
)
7 in considering our -- developing our long-range plans 8
is that issues that are related to thermal-hydraulies 9
will continue to arise with regularity.
They have 10 been arising at the rate of once every year or once 11 every two years that there's some major issue that 12 comes that thermal-hydraulic expertise has to become 13 involved in.
14 Current issues that we're working on is the 15 BWR stability.
That's related to the La Salle event.
16 We have a two day meeting that's just going on 17 upstairs right now.
Again, as I mentioned > bef ore, 18 we're checking the fidelity of the NRC dimulatuts at 19 the technical training center.
10 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Against what?
21 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
There's some new suftware 22 going in to upgrade their capability and we're using 23 our already developed thermal-hydraulic codes to 24 benchmark that new software that's going in.
25 DOCTOR SHERON:
TRAC and a RELAP code NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W (202) N WASHINGTON. D C. 20005 (202) 232 6600 -
38 1
primarily.
2 CHAIRMAN CARR:
So, against some
- well, 3
those simulators are. designed to reflect only one 4
plant at a time, aren't they?
5 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Yes.
6 DOCTOR SHERON:
Yes.
7 CHAIRMAN CARR:
So, you're going to check 8
them against that particular configuration and plan?
9 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Yes.
10 DOCTOR SHERON:
That's correct.
11 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
That particular plant 12 design.
13 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Okay.
14 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Another problem that's of 15 interest to NRR recently has been interfacing systems 16 LOCA and some of our codes are going to be used to 17 help out with that.
18 And
- finally, as I mentioned, we are 19 discussing with the industry some possible testing in 20 the once through steam generator to look at the 21 behavior under secondary depressurization.
22 (Slide)
Next viewgraph, number 14, 23 The fifth item that we considered was that 24 new initiatives will continue to be explored.
So, 25 what are our new initiatives?
- Well, first, the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D C. 20005 (202) 232 4 600 V-__-__-_____-
39 1
advanced light ' water reactors are coming down the 0,.,
?
'2 pike.
The 600 ' megawatt designs are quite different-
- c 3
from the designs we have today.
There may be new 4'
' safety issues.
We expect at DOE decision on which.
5 types they're going to develop through this year.
6 Some of the questions that we're asking are, 7
how effective are the proposed new passive or, to use 8
. Doctor Beckjord's
- term, dif f erent. term, safety 9
systems?
What they've done is instead of.having pump 10
-- ECC injection, emergency injection, they use 11 natural.' circulation to get the water to-the core.
12 And then, the next question is "Are the 13 current computer codes applicable to these new 14 geometries?"
In fact, GE is using the TRAC code to 15 analyze their new design.
It's a version that they they developed jointly with us.
They've had l
- 16 have 17 it by themselves for a couple of years and they have 18 made some changes to it.
19 We would expect to have an international 20-code --
21 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
What do they call it?
22 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
TRAC GE.
23 CHAIRMAN CARR:
How do you compare it?
Is 24 there a code for the new geometries that you compare 25 it to?
)
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DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
No.
What they --
I 2
CHAIRMAN CARR:
Well, does this require some jry lQi 3
guy to sit down and redesign the code all over again?
4 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Well,-here's what they did.
5 They marked'up their new geometry in experimental test
.6 facility and they took data on the natural circulation 7
patterns that developed.
They then analyzed that data 8
with their version of TRAC, TRAC GE, and it didn't 9
fit.
And they had some intelligent people sit down 10 and say, "Well, it didn't fit because of tnese two 11 models," and they change or improve those two models 12 based on other considerations, reran their calculation 13 and it did fit the data.
And they then said, "It's 14 good enough, we can now predict this behavior."
15 CHAIRMAN CARR:
So it wasn't applicable, but 16 they modified it.
17 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
At the beginning it wasn't, 18 yes.
They had to modify it.
19 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Okay.
20 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
We have an international 21 curie assessment program with these 14 or so countries 22 that will end in 1991.
Most of these countries have 23 expressed interest in continuing this program beyond 24 1991.
And what we've said is, "Yes, we'd be willing 25 to continue it if you would provide support for NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS j
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maintaining the codes with us."
In this way, this is 2
another way to maintain our expertise, is to have our l
d)
}
3 people involved not only worrying about our problems, l
4 but also problems of the code that come up from other 5
countries.
6 CHAIRMAN CARR:
What does that run us per
.7 year after 14 --
8 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Right now, the ICAP program l
9 itself is running us about $750 K per year.
10 DOCTOR SHERON:
Keep in mind tha t. the--
11 this proposed code maintenance consortia is designed 12 such that instead of getting in return from these 13 countries code assessment, in other words 14 calculations, we basically said we would like money to 15 help offset our costs.
So, what we're trying to do is 16 to actually bring in money --
17 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Well, is $750 K the total 18 cost right now or is thet just our part of it?
19 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Oh, that's just our part, 20 yes.
They are putting in much more money than that.
21 CHAIRMAN CARR:
What's the total price of 22 that code maintenance consortia?
23 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Oh, of the code maintenance 24 would be about $500 K per code per year.
We would 25 expect to have two or three codes maintained, i
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depending on the international interest.
There's n
2 interest in at least two of these codes.
There might
{i) 3 be interest in a third one.
4 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Okay.
5 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Some of the countries that 6
are most interested are the UK and Japan.
7 Another new initiative is we are considering 8
the ACRS suggestion to broaden research into something 9
they call thermal sciences.
We are asking them to 10 help us define what they mean by thermal science.
We 11 are coming with some suggestions and we will discuss 12 this with them.
13 And finally, as -- if and when CANDU and 14 PIUS come on to the American market, and we would 15 consider looking at the safety issues connected with 16 those reactors.
17 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Where do we maintain that?
18 Where is that international code maintenance done?
19 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
That is done at the labs 20 that have developed and maintained the codes now and 21 that's primarily Idaho and Los Alamos.
22 CHAIRMAN CARR:
And is that the same guys--
23 those are our dedicated guys or is that separate from 24 them?
25 DOCTOR SHOTRIN:
No, those are differen, j
4
{
\\
l l
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people who are working on the 14 --
, op Same kind of thing,.but
.. ~
2 CHAIRMAN CARR: -
3 different guy.
'Okay.
So they're going to stay busy 4
if.we keep this one going anyway.
5 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
(Slide)
And finally, on 1
1 6
slide 15,-the sixth -f actor, just.some other planning 7
assumptions that we've used in developing our long-4 8
range plans.
9
- First, we've looked at what we need for j
10 accident management software capability.
And right 11 now we believe that the existing codes that we have 12 will be sufficient and no new software development is 13 needed.
14
- Second, we will continue to support 15 fundamental research where needed.
This is one of the 16
-ACRS suggestions.
We intend to do this_both through 17 broad Agency announcements on certain topics as well 18 as through the continuing grants program that we have.
19 Some of the ACRS suggestions that we will 20 consider as part of this fundamental research program 21 will be flow induced vibrations.
That came up in one f
22 of the meetings.
There's a question of heat transfer 23 under oscillating flow.
Sometimes valve behavior 24 depends not only on the mechanics of the valve but on 25 the flow conditions that are near the valve.
And NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE (SLAND AVENUE, N W (202) N WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005 (202) 232 4 600 i
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finally, the problem of erosion and corrosion does 2
have a flow effect connected with it and we would 3
propose to ask for some research proposals on that l
4 effect.
5 And' finally, ACRS has suggested that we look 6
at the way we are preserving our research results for 7
future use and determine the best method so that 8
future generations of people who come. along will be 9
able to have access to these results.
10 Do you want to do the last'one?
i 11 DOCTOR SHERON:
You can do it.
You're doing 12 so well.
13 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
(Slide)
The final 14 viewgraph, number 16, I've put on one viewgraph a 15 summary of our response to the ACRS letter of June 16 15th.
We agree with all the ACRS suggestions, except i
17
- one, the one being that we disagree with their 18 suggestivi: to initiate developinent of a new systems 19 code.
20 What we agree with is that the codes are liow 21 good enough after the fineil versions are finished in 22 calendar year 1989 and that no further development 23 need be planned.
24 On experimentation, we would support, if 25 funding is available, the university loops as well as NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W (202) N WASHINGTON, D C. 20005 (202) 232-6000
45 1
the fundamental research that I mentioned.
n-2' Their suggestion on data analysis, we do
.hmD 3
intend to come up with proposals to them of how we 4
would propose to preserve research results for future 5
use.
I should say that we already have several i
6 programs.
We have an experimental data bank and we l
7 have the code maintenance program that we feel go a 8
long way towards preserving these results, but we 9
would discuss with ACRS what specific improvements we 10 could make.
11 On the applications research, we do support l
12 their suggestions primarily for maintaining the 13 expertise at the thermal-hydraulic technical support i
14 center, which would involve analysis of transients
~
15 that occur in operating reactors, the development of 16 the input decks and then to pick out some of the 17 specific transients that I mentioned that would be of 18 particular interest.
19
- Finally, we agree that we would be 20 interested in broadening our perspective of thermal l
21 sciences once we can mutually agree on what thermal 22 sciences are of interest to the NRC.
23 Now, the reason we disagree with the ACRS 24 suggestion to initiate development of new systems code 25 is that we feel our current capability is quite NEAL R. GROSS I
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sufficient to meet our needs in the future.
Let me 2
tell you what some of that capability is.
3 As I say, the new issues only come up about 4
once a year, once every two years.
And there isn't a 5
heck of a lot of analysis that goes on when we analyze 6
those issues.
So, even though these major codes take 7
a long time to run, most of the cost that goes into 8
the analysis is people cost rather than computer cost.
9 So, we don't feel that we need to put in a large 10 expense in order to develop a faster running code.
)
1 11 For those people within the agencies such as 12 AEOD and NRR who do like to have a fast running code 13 on a PC, we do have a version of the code that AEOD is 14 putting into the simulators that they do have working 15 on a PC and they can run sensitivity studies and get r.
I 16 the kind of answers they want.
Then they can always 17 benchmark those answers against the major thermal-18 hydraulic codes.
j 19 That's all that we have.
20 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Does that comt>1ete the 21 presentation?
22 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
Yes, sir.
23 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Commissioner Rogers?
24 Commissioner Curtiss?
25 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
I've got some.
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1 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Excuse me, Commissioner p
2 Rogers.
,g 3
COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
Yes.
4 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Didn't mean to pass you by l
5 there.
6 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
Okay.
Yes, a couple 7
of things.
Just on this systems question.
I wonder r
8 if ACRS and you are talking exactly about the same 9
thing though when they talk about system codes.
In 10 looking at their letter, it sounded to me at first as 11 if they were talking about something more general that 12-night include more than just thermal-hydraulics 13 interactions.
On the other hand, the examples they 14 gave are things that you say you can handle right now.
15 To do the La Salle station event, you say you can do 16 that right now with what you have, or you will be able 17 to, I guess, with just a little bit more work. And 18 they draw an analogy to the Broukhaven BWR code as the 19 type that we're suggesting.
20 So, I don't know if I'm reading their letter 21 correctly or not, but it certainly seems to me that 22 this question of systems interaction is something I'd 23 like to hear more about because the Chairman's 24 question, for example, was one that relates a little 25 bit to systecis interaction.
So, what I'd like to know NEAL R. GROSS l
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48 1
is what kind of system codes do you have in renearch 2
that aren't simply thermal-hydraulics codes?
!)o you 3
have systems interaction codes of other kinds?
)
4 DOCTOR SHERON:
I don't know of any that --
5 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
The only system codes 6
that you have are those all just fluid and t.hermal 7
effects?
8 DOCTOR SHERON:
If you're saying are there 9
any in which you interact, say, structurally and the 10 like --
11 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
- Well, or 12 electromechanical.
l 13 DOCTOR SHERON:
I think the severe accident 14 codes probably come the closest to combining thermal-15 hydraulics, say, with structural interaction core, the 16 physical melting of structures and relocation of fuel.
17 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
Well, I'm not thlaking 18 about those.
I'm thinking about before you get to 19 that point.
20 DOCTOR SHERON:
Maybe it would be helpful if 21-I -- let me give you my impression of the ACRS concern 22 and why they recommended that.
The question that was 23 asked is these codes, RELAP and TRAC, all evolve from 24 the large break LOCA codes which were developed.
In 25 order -- during the particular blow down phase of a t
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LOCA,. where things are happening very, very quickly, 2
you have to solve
- mass, momentum and energy w
3 simultaneously.
It's an iterative process.
It's very 4
expensive.
You have to use very small time steps.
5 These codes were developed specifically to 1
6 calculate that kind of an event.
Over the years, as l
7 we went from a large break into the small break and 8
then the ' transient and then severe accident, I guess i
9 the best way to describe it is that the time scale of 10 the transient was extended.
They become slower.
11 Okay.
Things don't happen as fast.
When things don't 12 happen very fast, you don't need to solve, for 13 example, the momentum equation.
And you can speed up 14 the running time.
The concern was that these codes, 15 if you apply them to a long, slow, evolving transient, 16 can be expensive and time consuming to run because of 17 the way they're structured and the way they've been 18 built.
And in fact, if you were to go back today and 19
- say, "I
want a code that can calculate a slow, long 20 drawn out transient where things don't change very 21 fast," I would do it entirely differently and I could 22 probably build a code that could run faster.
23 That was their concern.
We did build a code 24 at Brookhaven called the BWR analyzer, which runs on 25 an AD-100 computer.
It runs, depending upon how it's
?
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50 1
nodalized, faster than real time.
It's useful.
We've A
2 been using it extensively with the La Salle analyses.
W 3
Now, the question is, " Gee, should we build i
4 one for a PWR7" The cost of building a code like that i
5 is probably in the range of $2 to $3 million and then 6
you have to go through the entire assessment process 7
and then you have the maintenance of it as well.
Once j
8 you have a code, you have to maintain it.
You have to 9
maintain people there.
So, there is a lot of long-10 term cost associated with a new code.
11 Our feeling was -- is that we have, for 12
- example, the. TRAC -- it's the RELAP code, RELAPS.
13 INEL, we had developed what they call their plant 14 analyzer.
What this is it's basically a code that
'~
15 tacks onto the front end of RELAP so that a user can 16 interact on a terminal with the code and use it as an 17 analyzer.
If it's nodalized properly, okay, it can 18 run'almost in real time, sometimes even fastet.
19 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Any plant?
20 DOCTOR SHERON:
Yes.
1 21 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Yes.
23 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Any configuration?
24 DOCTOR SHERON:
Wait a minute.
It doesn't 25 do the Bs, does it or not?
i NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W (202) 2M 433 WASHINGTON, O C. 20005 (202) 232 4 800
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51 1
DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
The Idaho one?
Oh, it does i
2 the Bs.
3 DOCTOR SHERON:
It does the Bs.
They do 4
both, yes.
5 CHAIRMAN CARR:
And it's no matter how many 6
loops or what?
j 7
DOCTOR SHERON:
Right.
8 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Okay.
9 DOCTOR SHERON:
And basically the speed is k
10 dependent. upon how finely you nodalize it, how many i
11 loops you choose.
12 Our feeling was that for the number of 13 analyses that we are called upon to do every year, 14 combined with what Doctor Shotkin said, and that is 15 the principal cost of doing an analysis is not 16 computer time, it's people time.
People have to set 17 up the decks, people have to analyze the results, they 18 have to document the results, they have tu OA the 19 results.
You're going to do that with any code.
And 20 our feeling was that it was more cost beneficial to
}
21 maintain what we have and use it, even though it may 22 be a little more expensive to run a calculation with 23 the RELAP analyzer than it would be with a new code, 24 than to put all those front end costs right in there.
25 And as an aside too, AEOD has also developed NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W (202) N WASHINGTON, O C. 20005 (202) 232 4600
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l 1
the'ir.own : PWR analyzer recently.
And that's still i
..., 1 2
under development.
They're using it for their own 3-purposes,
but -certainly I think that if either 4
Research or NRR needed something of that capability, 5
they could turn and use that one.
So that was the q
6 basis for s aying' we really didn't feel it was
-7 beneficial to develop a whole new code at this time.
8 I' don't know if that. answers your question.
L 9
COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
Well, to some extent 10 it does.
I think-maybe we could get into too long an 11 extended conversation on it here that would be 12-
. inappropriate for this meeting.
But I'd like to hear 13 a little bit more about what the -- that whole 14 situation because I wonder whether we are addressing 15.
-the systems interactions as -- of different parts of
.16 the plant in an adequate way and whether that w a s' a.
17 question that they were raising,
- ACRS, in their 18 letter.
It isn't so clear to me, from what you've-19
.said, that that's what their thinking was, that they 20 may have been thinking of something else.
21 So, I think I need to learn a little bit 22 more about their thinking and yours on the whole 23 matter.
So I don't think I want to pursue it too much 24_
more today, but I do want to hear more about it from 25 you if I can.
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1 The question of the considerations of where
<W 2
you'd place a scaled facility, I just ask you, if you Y./
3 would in looking at that, consider the whole impact of 4
that ' facility on the general question that we're 5
facing in the country of the quality of nuclear 6
engineering programs.
Nuclear engineering programs 7
are gradually going down the tube and facilities at 8
universities to maintain high quality -- the interest 9
of high quality students in going into nuclear 10 engineering programs is a real problem.
11 I would wonder whether it's appropriate in 12 thinking about where to place something like this to 13 look at a little broader picture than just the 14 proposal for the hardware and maintenance of that 15 hardware and running it to look at the impact of that 16 on the whole question of a nuclear engineering 17 program, the quality of the people that might come out 18 of it, and the maintenance of the faculty skillo that 19 are very important in maintaining nuclear engineering.
20 So, that I would hope that we could think 21 about that question more broadly when we write a 22 request for proposal so that it isn't just that we 23 look at the most narrow view of what is the best 24 proposal.
25 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
I think the nuclear NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W (202) N WASHINGTON. O C. 20005 (202) 232 6 L_____
1 54 l
i 1
engineering departments are not the only places that 2
could respond, but they certainly have an advantage 3
because of the interest in codes and analysis of the 4
systems.
So, I would certainly expect that most of 5
these would finally be associated with places that i
6 have a nuclear engineering department.
7 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
All I'm saying is I
]
l 8
think that the broader question of not only the l
1 9
immediate data that comes out of such a facility, but j
i 10 the quality of the students and the quality of the f
11 faculty that are involved with it in terms of what 12 they'll help to produce in the way of student output i
13 is very important.
14 MR.
BECKJORD:
That certainly is an 15 important consideration.
16 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
Yes, right.
So, it's 17 not just who comes in with the cheapest proposal to 18 build and operate something for us, that there are 19 subsidiary questions that I would think would be 30 important in making that placement.
21 MR. BECKJORD:
Yes, I agree.
22 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
The -- this data 23 analysis question and the preservation and 24 organization of data from the test programs, I hope 25 that will teally get some hard thinking.
It's a tough NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W (202) N WASHINGTON, D C. 20005 (202) 232m
55 1
problem of how to preserve for future use not only the
?
2 data but the smarts that were involved in generating k<d 3
that data as well.
And once you have a table of 4
numbers, that's not the whole story, as we know.
How 5
-- what some of the background of that is and what's 6
required to understand and interpret it and so on.
7 So, it seems to me that that's a common 8
problem with any sort of a situation where you build a 9
big facility, you can't use it for some special 10 purposes, people have to get trained up and skilled to 11 build it, design it, operate it, get the numbers and 12 then you tear it down.
And there's a great loss, a 13 human loss in various ways in that kind of situation.
14 And you don't, you know, -- just that final output of 15 a few numbers, even though it may be a long table, is 16 not the full story.
So, I think that somehow--
17 otherwise, ultimately somebody goes back and redoes 18 the whole thing because they h et ve the numbers, but 19 there was something else that was missing, su they 20 have to go back and do it.
1 21 So, I think that's something that requires a l
22 good deal of creative thinking, this question of how l
i 23 to preserve not just the data itself but some of the l
l 24 background thinking and skills that went into the 25 acquisition of that data for the future, for future i
l l
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generations.
J 2
DOCTOR SHERON:
One thing we are doing, i
3 which I don't think we've mentioned here, and that is 4
that this technical support center at INEL -- I guess 5
Chairman Carr was concerned about what these people do 6
when they're not working on priority issues.
One of 7
the things we have them doing is a thing called the I
l 1
8 synthesis reports.
What we've asked them to do is to i
l 9
look at special issues.
And I guess natural I
10 circulation was one, feed and bleed cooling, I guess, 11 was one.
We've run a lot of experiments at various
)
12 experimental facilities, LOFT, SEMISCALE, the FIST l
l 13 facility, MIST facility and the like.
l 1
14 The question is, for the users in 15 particular, NRR, it's not sufficient for us to dump a i
16 bunch of contractor reports in their lap and say, 1
17 "Here it is."
Th a t. ' s not going to help them.
What 18 we're trying to do is synthesize it and that's what 19 these reports do.
They try and take all this data and 20 collect that wisdom that was learned from all of this 21 and put it in one document in a succinct way.
And 22 we've been trying to do that and this is the kind of 23 work that, as I said, when something comes along like 24 a priority type of work, we would ask them, "Okay, 25 defer doing this to work on the priority work, but 1
'l 1
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57 1
when that's done go back and do this."
So, it's an 2
ongoing program.
_ &)
3 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
Well, I think that's 4
an excellent and very important activity.
But I i
5 wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to try to think 6
of connecting universities into that kind of thing 7
because that's the sort of thing that universities are i
)
1 8
supposed to do very well, to be able to bring a j
1 9
general view towards the acquisition of knowledge and
-j l
1 10 put it in a
form that is useful for future j
1 11 generations.
)
1 1
12 And as you consolidate your thermal-i 13 hydraulic research in one center, I would think it i
14 would be very worthwhile considering encouraging l
15 universities to interact with that center and somehow 16 participate in activities of precisely that type, 17 because that's exactly the sort of thing that they can 18 do well and there's no great rush on it.
Universities 19 don't respond very quickly, in general, to things, in 1
20 solving problems.
But they do tespond in depth.
And 21 I would think this is the kind of thing that a 1
22 university participation would be very useful to have 23 and it could be part of your grants program.
l 1
24 Okay.
Thanks very much.
25 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Commissioner Curtiss?
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1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W (202) 234 4433 WASHINGTON O C. 20005 (202) 2324600 l
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58 1
' COMMISSIONER' CURTISS:
Just a quick
- q' 2
question.
There was a report in the trade press last kut; 3
month about a fellow out at Idaho, Makowitz, I think 4
his name w a s ', who had run the codes and, I gather, 5
-tinkered with the time steps and came up with some 6;
results that. surprised him at least and I gather.
4
'7 suggested in' turn that the differences in the results 8
may call into question whether the people and values
~
9 that were using the codes yield the most accurate 10 results.
Is that a concern that we have or have we 11 appropriately responded to th'at?
12 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
We've received a letter 13 from Idaho, EG&G, telling us that they are -- this is 14 nothing new.
There is not a concern.
We do intend to 15 submit this letter as well as some other background
'16 information to the Commission.
There is no real 17 concern.
18 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:
Are the differences
'19 that he came up with predictable or expected 20 differences when you run the codes by tinkering with 21 the default values?
I e
22 DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
They're expected 23 differences.
The words that he used to describe them I would call sensational.
We went back and 24 were 25 looked at the actual clocks that he had looked at and NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W (202) 2M WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005 (202) 232-6600 s
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-.J K
5@-
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there was nothing really exciting about it.
- i.,
1 2'
DOCTOR SHERON:
The divergence that he 3-referred to was like differences in like: ten percent, 4
I.think.in the answer.
5 DOCTOR SHOTKIN: 'Yes.
6 DOCTOR SHERON:
We were well aware that if I
.7 you don't judiciously choose your time step, you'll 8
get differences.
And we make sure that when we put 1
~
9 out our code manuals, that there's proper guidance for I
10 the' users on how to chose the time steps.
11-DOCTOR SHOTKIN:
- Actually, he defeated l
12-something'that's in the code.
The code automatically
~
!.~
13 chooses the. time step.
It does not let the user use 14 it. -But he knew how to go in there and defeat it.
So we really don't think it's a problem, but 15 I don't 16 we'll. communicate that to the Commission.
17 COMMISSIONER CURTISS:
Okay, thank you.
18 That's all I have.
19 CHAIRMAN CARRi What are the benefits and 20 objectives of us participating with the CSNI?
21 DOCTCR SHERON:
In general --
22 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Committee on Safety of 23 Nuclear Installations.
You mentioned in here that we 24 were going to continue to --
25 DOCTOR SHERON:
In general or in the area of NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W WASHINGTON. D C. 20005 (202) 232-6600 (202) N c
4 60 1
thermal-hydraulics?
2 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Any way you want to take it.-
3 DOCTOR SHERON:
In the area of thermal-
.- 4 hydraulics --
5 CHAIRMAN CARR:
What are we getting out of 6
it is my question.
7 DOCTOR SHERON:
In the area of thermal-8 hydraulics, the principal benefit used to be the 1
9 participation in international standard problems where 10 one country would put up a test and all of the l
j 11 countries would participate in predicting it and we 12 would then cross check our results to see if we were 13 all on the same wavelength basically.
14 We've stopped participating in those type of 15 international standard problems about two years ago.
i 16 The reason is is. because we felt that, again, our i
17 codes were pretty much at a mature level.
We were not 18 getting any real benefits out of it and we didn't l
l 19 really have the resources to spend on that.
20 The other area that we are participating in i
21 international standard problems right now in CSNI, 1
22 analytically, is in the severe accident area.
I can 23 speak for the group that I represent.
I represent the 24 Commission on principal working group 2.
We sponsored 25 just recently the first severe accident international I
1 i
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS j
1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W l
WASHINGTON. D C. 20005 (202) 232 4200 902) 2m i
-_1
k 61 1
standard problem, which was the CIRC 4 test run by l
l Q
2 Sandia.
I think there was substantial benefit, j
W/
1 3
primarily because nobody predicted it very well.
What 4
we learned from it was that you have to include the 5
condense phase chemistry in the core concrete 6
reaction.
Otherwise, you will not get the temperature 7
of the melt right 'and that principally would effect
)
1 8
things like the gas evolution rate off of the melt, 9
the core concrete interaction and to some extent the 10 oblation rate of the concrete.
l 11 So, there was, I think, a real benefit to 12 participating in that test.
We are now looking 13 towards establishing a standard problem on early phase 14 melt progression.
We're going to get some proposals, 15 as a matter of fact, in September of the next meeting.
16 To answer your question in general, I think i
17 there are benefits to participating in international 18 standard problems because it helps us understand un nu 19 international basis how well we do compared to the 20 rest of the world.
I think it also helps us maintain 21 a preeminence in this area because basically the rest 22 of the world are using our codes.
23 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Well, is it important that 24 we maintain the preeminence?
I guess is it worth 25 paying for?
Everybody else is building and we're not NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERG AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W.
(202).N WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005 (202) 232-6600
---x.
62 1
It looks to me like we might as well let them foot the
.F) 2 preeminence bill awhile and take advantage of some of Qy 3
their efforta.
4 DOCTOR SHERON:
Well, what the problem would 5
be is that if we did not maintain the preeminence, 6
they would most likely go off and build, for example, 7
their own codes.
The problem we would have is, number 8
one, we would sort of -- if we stopped doing the work, 9
then we would be dependent upon them for our 10 analytical models.
And also, as usual, if there are 11 two codes to do the same thing, ten to one you'll get 12 different answers.
And then we will most likely wind 13 up spending a lot of our time answering questions of 14 critics as to why our codes don't give the same 15 answers as theirs.
And I guess my feeling is it's 16 better if they're all using ours.
17 MR. BECKJORP; I'd like to make a couple of 18 points on that, to take up CSNI in general.
I think 19 that the participation in that committee is useful in 20 terms of keeping up to date on the developments 21 because about twice a year you have a chance to sit--
22 on a regular basis you have a chance to sit down with 23 counterparts in the other countries and you find out 24 right away what's going on.
25 I think with regard to the working r;roups, I
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W (202) 234g WASHINGTON, D C. 20005 (202) 232 4400
63 1-those are important because these questions, the j
L 2
current issues are taken up in more detail.
They can lg ws 3
be pursued in those working groups, in both in breadth 4
and in-depth.
I think that we would like to see some 5
changes in the emphasis.
6 As I see it in CSNI, there is great emphasis 7.
today still on the kind of thermal-hydraulics that 8
we're saying we know enough about now and I think not 9
enough emphasis on risk.
Perhaps one of the least 10 active groups there is the group on PRA. I would like l
11 to see that more active and I would also like to see 12 more attention given to the severe accident questions 13 and the accident management.
And we are trying to 14 encourage the other parties to move in that direction, (f) 15 that is away from the thermal-hydraulics problens 16 which we regard as largely solved and toward some of 17
-these other very important questions.
That's what 18 we're trying to convince people to do.
19 CHAIRMAN CARR:
Okay.
Are the costs which 20 you project in your reseeir ch paper lite r' e,
et r ~ thosee 21 reflected in the five year plan?
22 MR. BECKJORD:
Yes.
23 CHAIRMAN CARR:
And that's what you're 24 currently planning in your five year plan?
25 MR. BECKJORD:
Yes.
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W (202) 234 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005 (202) 232 4 600
- _ __- _L : _ _. _ _ _ _
~
ay
.H 64 1-CHAIRMAN CARR:
The'--
y 2:
MR. - BECKJORD:'
They are not-reflected- -
s 1
3
.however, they would not'be reflected in what I see of'
'4 reduced-. budgets in the-out years, but what 'we ' re 5
' currently working with.
6 MR. TAYLOR:
We don ' t know the impact. of L
7 those projected cuts.
8 CHAIRMAN CARR:
But the 1>1 an that
- s. the 9
latest submitted plan, they're in there.
10' MR. BECKJORD:
Yes.
11 MR. TAYLOR:
Yes.
12-CHAIRMAN CARR:
Will the nuclear plant
,13 analyzer,.or does it, have application in the 14 development of accident manage' ment strategies?.
15-DOCTOR-SHOTKIN:
Yes.
We are. right now 16-using -- - c an I. broaden your question to say the 17-computer codes, not just the plant analyzer?
We are 18 using that to look at several of the more' difficult 19 strategies right now.
20' CHAIRMAN CARR:
Okay.
Let me ask one final 21 thing here.
In your recommendation it says thei t the 22 Commission take note of the approach proposed herein 23 for the future goals and directions of thermal-24 hydraulic research.
If we take note of the approach, 25 what does that mean?
Have I committed myself to I
\\e NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W (202) 2M WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005 (202) 232-6600 R______________________.._______.
65 1
something?- It doesn't sound like it.
p.
2 MR. BECKJORD:
No.
Q '
3' MR. TAYLOR:
Does to me.
4 CHAIRMAN CARR:
What are you asking me to 5
do?
6 MR.
BECKJORD:
He's rapidly searching for 7
that.
8 CHAIRMAN CARR:
That happens to be the last 9
page.
It says recommendation.
10 MR. TAYLOR:
The staff -- the staff wanted 11 you to understand where we were and what we were doing 12 really.
policy issue 13 CHAIRMAN CARR:
You left me a 14 and all you asked me to do was take note of it.
15 MR. TAYLOR:
The staff intends to proceed in 16 this direction unless there's some --
17 CHAIRMAN CARR:
That's why I'm speaking out.
18 If I don't do anything, I've acquiesced by --
yes--
19 and as long as we have the money.
20 MR. BECKJORD:
If I could characterize it, 21 what we would like is approvel of the plan that is 22 laid out here.
23 MR.
TAYLOR:
You didn't ask for that 24 specifically.
25 CHAIRMAN CARR:
What I'm trying to find out l
NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W (202) N WASH!NGTON. D C. 20005 (202) 232-6600 I.L_
66 1
1 is did you hope it would go away by default or did you 1
J Q
2 really want approval for it?
%y 3
MR.
TAYLOR:-
We didn't make this an 4
approval paper.
I think the intention was that the 5
Commission should be informed this is such a major 6
program.
We've had a lot of staff work on where we 7
are heading.
We've had ACRS input.
So -- but we 8
wanted the Commission to understand what we were 9
doing.
I believe unless the Commission indicates 10 otherwise, we'd leave here and if the budget money is 11 available,.we would intend to follow the course that 12 we've outlined here.
13 CHAIRMAN CARR:
So, the onus is on us to do 14 something or hold our peace until the budget scrub, I 15 guess, huh?
16 dR. TAYLOR:
That's right, sir.
We may yet 17 have parts of this program that we're not able to do, 18 depending on the budget.
But right now, this is--
19 this is where we think -- and we've had input from the 20 user, everybody -- that this is the right course in 21 this general, very broad, but impor tant ar ea.
22 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
I like it myself.
I 23 still have this question of systems interaction code.
24 I'd like to hear a little bit more about that.
l 25 MR.
TAYLOR:
Managerially, we, I think, 1
l k
l 1
)
J NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W l
(202) 2M WASHINGTON. D C. 20005 (202) 232-6600 i
1
)
s.
67 l'
across all the ' senior-l management, have' talked about ac/.
2-the thermal-hydraulic program knowing we:were coming
- m!.
3
.toEthis. time where these kind of base decisions would
'4 have. to be made.
And as Eric mentioned, there are 5
other very.important demands on research money.
But 6
we wanted to tell you what we were doing.
We weren't 7
going to close' shop on thermal-hydraulics, but we were-l 1
.8 definitely ' going into a maintenance mode because we
-9 have more'important demands on our. research. dollars.
10 That's really the message.
That's the message.
11 CHAIRMAN CARR:
I guess we can let the 12 record show we've taken note and you're going to hear 13 from us.
14 MR. TAYLOR:
Maybe we'll change words in our 15 next paper.
16 CHAIRMAN CARR:
I'd like to thank the staff 17-for the meeting.
It appears that the staff has done a 18 good job in developing this program by coordinating 19 with the Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards and 20 other NRC offices that use the information developed 21.
through the research program.
22 I believe it's appropriate and necessary, 23 especially in the time of budget constraint, for the 24 NRC to pursue cooperative areas and areas where 25 research is deemed necessary.
I would caution you to NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE. N W (202) 234 4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005 (202) 232M
68.
1 ensuro that clear objectives which are of benefit to l
($
2 the NRC regulatory program are laid out and followed I %w 3
through in any cooperative effort.
4 Do any of my fellow Commissioners have any 5
additional comments?
6 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
Yes, I just have one 7
brief one.
8 I've made some noises in the past about some 1
9 of the presentations to us by staff with an excess of 10 acronyms and a lack of identification of who's going 11 to make the presentation.
I thought this one from you 12 folks was an excellent job that I can't criticize in 13 that way at all.
I thought you did identify who the 14 people are that are making the presentation and I 15 didn't ese a single acronym in it.
i 16 MR. BECKJORD:
Thank you.
17 CHAIRMAN CARR:
We stand adjourned.
l I
18 (Whereupon, at 3:59 p.m.,
the abo v e-en t i tl ed 19 matter was concluded.)
20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N W (202) 234 4433 WASHINGTON. D.C 20005 (202) 232M m____________._._
v.
l
1 CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIBER-l
'N A
This is to certify that the attached events of a meeting L.
of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission entitled:
TITLE OF MEETING:
BRIEFING ON NRC THERMAL-HYDRAULIC RES'EARCH PROGRAM PLACE OF MEETING:
ROCKVILLE, MARYLAND DATE OF MEETING:
AUGUST 3, 1989 were transcribed by me. I further certify that said transcription is accurate and complete, to the best of my ability, and that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the foregoing events.
7
.i
/) I A
- 1. / H / A w--
s f.<
Reporter's name:
Peter Lynch 9
l NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRAN5cRIBER5 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVENUE, N.W.
(202) 234-4433 -
WASHINGTON, D.C.
20005 (202) 232-6600
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