ML20237L454
| ML20237L454 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Shoreham File:Long Island Lighting Company icon.png |
| Issue date: | 04/27/1987 |
| From: | AFFILIATION NOT ASSIGNED |
| To: | |
| References | |
| OL-5-A-005, OL-5-A-5, NUDOCS 8708280109 | |
| Download: ML20237L454 (34) | |
Text
[// ( O fS M = Steve Cole 56 - 3 2 2 - CO[
S = The Participants 7 f[
FOCUS CROUP #1 (EBS Messages)
- r.
CGn.
M:
I have done work on the responses of Long Island residents towards the Shoreham Nuclear Plant for quite a number of years, and this is a continuation of the research that I am doing. Jane is going to give you out just a one page l
l questionnaire that I would like everybody to fill out and then we are going to l
start discussing things. What we are interested in doing essentially is finding out how Long Island residents would recct if the Shoreham Nuclear Power Plant l
f was turned on, it was operating producing electricity and then something were to l
happen at that plant.
We are going to begin by asking you to imagine that you are at home sometime in the future on a weekday morning at around 7 a.m. and you j
get up and turn on the radio and you are going to hear a message on the radio, l
an announcer will say a message.
EBS di Played l
[This is the emergency broadcast system. The emergency broadcast system has been activated due to an incident at the Shoreham Nuclear Powe r Station.
This 1
is a test.
An alert condition was declared at 0:17 a.m. today at the Shoreham Nuclear Power Station.
No release of radiation has occurred.
No release of l
l radiation is imminent.
An alert is one of four emergency classifications and involves conditions which could jeopardize the Nuclear Plant's saf ety system.
l l
The Director of Local Response for Emergencies at the Shoreham Nuclear Power 8708280109 870427 PDR ADOCK 05000322 O
pon
b 1
l 1 i Station, Jay Kessler, has consulted with LILCO of ficials and nuclear engineers and has recommended the following public action.
1.
Schools within the 10 mile emergency planning zone should immediately implement their early dismissal plans.
The dismissal of school children is part l
of the emergency plan adopted before Shoreham was put in operation.
It does not mean that a release of radiation is imninent.
Parents should not drive to I
(
school to meet their children.
2.
If you are within the 10 mile emergency planning zone you should refer 1
l to your Shoreham public emergency procedures brochure to determine the planning zone in which you live because it could be usef ul in helping you understand future messages.
The 10 mile emergency planning zone around Shoreham is roughly bounded by Main Street in downtown Riverhead to the Eact, Main Street in Port Jef f e rson to the West, and Sunrise Highway to the South.
If you live within the 10 mile emergency planning zone you would have received periodic newsletters and other eme rgency inf onaation.
If you are not within these boundaries, there is no reason for you to take any action.
If you are located within the 10 mile planning zone and do not have a Shoreham public emergency procedures brochure public information and a map of the zone are included in a special insert of the Suf folk County telephone book and a more detailed map is in the local yellow book.
Pos ters wi th eme rgency inf o rma tion. ve been provided to local businesses, public parks, beaches and recreational f acilities.
Once again, the Shoreham Nuclear Power Station is in an alert condition.
There has been no release of radiation, no release of radiation is imminent.
This message will be l
IL.
. repeated every 15 minutes over this station unless new information is available sooner.
Keep tuned to this emergency broadcast station for the latest of ficial inf o rma tion. ]
What did this message say?
S:
This is a test; it is not an emergency situation.
M: We want to assume that this is a real situation; that you turn on the radio.
I Assume that this is a real live situation.
You are home and you hear that message but they don't say this is a test.
What did it say about what was
)
hap pe aing?
S:
Something did happen but they were very vague about it.
They said something happened, but nothing is wrong which immediately makes me suspicious.
They are trying to assure you that there is no radiation caning from the plant.
However, LILCO's record does not engender confidence.
The emergency broadcast system has its rules and regulations.
They are required to do that once something has happened.
LILCO would have nothing to do with the emergency broadcast system.
LILCO would give them the details but the emergency broadcast sys tem by government regulations has to carry them out according to their rules.
S:
Also considering what happened, happened at 6:17 in the morning if there was something wrong, I would say it would be ef f ected already.
M:
What would you assume had happened when you heard this message at 7 a.m.?
S:
It is tough to assume something like that if we are not really versed in I
nuclear powe r.
I think we 'can assume nothing major happened, otherwise there
~
would be some type of Red Alert.
I do not know what the emergency broadcast system would use'but something definitely went wrong and what I would worry about is degenerating conditions.
They said nothing is imminent right now but how about fif teen minutes f rom now, it nigh t be imminent then.
M: What would you do when you heard this message?
Let's go around the table.
S:
I would like to have all my f amily around me, I would like to know where they are in the event something much more serious came up in another half hour or an hour. And it would lead me to believe that af ter that little fiasco in Russia there might be a lot more to this than meets the eye.
M: But you wouldn't do anything?
S:
No, I would wait for another broadcast.
I live just ten miles f rom there.
I am right there.
i l
St I would get my family around me.
Ot he r t han t ha t, I wouldn't leave as I don't think that makes sense.
l l
S:
At 7 a.m. in the morning the kids aren't going to be in school they are going to be at home.
The best thing is to stay by your radio.
And if there is a leak, get into the basement.
The major problem is that people panic.
Be cause they don't know anything about it.
S:
I have been in the government since '61 and they don't make decisions not wi thou t coming from up high.
It takes them more than a day to make a decision.
1
)
i
I t
i Fo rge t about a nuclear emergency, it would take a while to make some kind of decision.
I would get my family and I would move to the south shore because it takes them too long to tell me what to do.
I might die but at least I would make the ef fort.
But I would go south not west.
If it took them that long to make the announcement, sirens should have been going of f.
Just hearing the announcement would make me move.
Do n ' t use the public roads.
I could do better on a boat than I could in a car.
I don't have a boat but I think that is the l
a nswe r.
Chaos would prevail.
i 1
S:
I would panic; I am 20 miles away.
I have a sister whose husband works for
)
l i
LILCO and she believes in it.
We don't discuss this matter at home.
I would j
l probably wait f or announcements, I would make sure that he was with me (we are j
together) and I don't know what I would do.
I don't t ru s t anything -that goes on out there.
I would bet my bottom dollar that they made light of it.
S:
I don't know if I would panic, but I am very cautious so I vculd take steps-I to get away.
I don't think I would get a boat.
I would try to take back roads, t ry to get to work in Bethpage just to see if anybody showed up.
I would bring my wife and child and other members of my f amily and get as f ar from the site as possible.
Bu t I would try not to panic.
S:
I live a half a mile east of the plant and I think I would make a nice gin and tonic.
I figure I have been exposed and I would just sit it out.
S:
I live across the street f rom Brookhaven National Laboratory and about four miles south of Sho reham.
Brookhaven Lab has probably the most se ns itive i
k 1
i l
. radiation alarms in the world and they are in a direct path of the prevailing winds out of the north.
So Brookhaven Lab would probably know about a leak in Shorehen because technicians for Shoreham live out there.
A public warning system has been in place for 45 years and they are well instructed and well informed as to what to do arid so I would wait to hear.
1 i
S Before listening to everybody's opinion, I would probably have waited f or two more broadcasts and if we were still on alert, I would leave.
But after l
what you said [another subject), I think the first alar:n would be enough so I would go.
M: What do you think about that message? Was it clear or unclear?
S:
It sounded clear to me.
{
l S:
Innocuous. Generalities.
S:
I think that is exactly what they would say if something happened, you don't wa nt to alarm people so you are going to be very vague. You don't want to i
I j
create a panic, you know some people are going to panic as it is.
You maybe l
don't even know the extent of whatever happened. And the people there don't know what is going to happen.
It may get worse.
l S:
It depends on how your mind works too.
It didn't tell you anything and yet it did tell you something.
S:
It is not going to put anybody at ease.
l lL
1 j
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1
. M: You don't think peopis vould f eel confident when they heard that message?
l I
i S:
Oh no.
S:
I think the message would have been shorter and more of a demand to stay where you are at than what this guy is anying.
S:
I think any alert f rom Shoreham would cause panic.
More people would die trying to escape, on the highways.
Three quarters of the year at 7 a.m. you have an onshore of f shore that comes up from the ocean, across the Island, past j
l Brookhaven National Labs and then runs up towards Sho reham.
M: The message described the boundaries of the 10 mile zone.
Are you in that zone?
S:
No, I would say about 7 miles we s t from the boundaries.
S:
I would say about 23 miles f rom the plant.
S:
I would say that I am right across the street from the boundaries; I am off l
Main St. in Port Jefferson, a little west of 112.
I may or may not be just i
y across the street f rom the boundary but I consider myself within that radius.
I S:
I would go downtown it is outside of the limits.
I just live up in the hills so I would have only a five minute walk.
S:
I live about 18 miles away (Patchogue).
S:
I was surprised to hear that Sunrise Highway was within the 10 miles
- radius, f
E ----- - --
l
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_g_
M: When you heard this message, would you believe that you were being told the truth about what was happening at the Shoreham plant.
How confident would you be that they were telling you the truth?
l l
S:
They didn't tell you anything about what was happening.
I S:
If they told me there was no radiation leaking, I wouldn't believe that.
I S:
You have to remember that it is Shoreham not LILCO making the announcement.
It is the public broadcasting system.
]
S:
I understand that.
They get their information f rom whomever.
l l
S:
They get the information f rom LILCO but before it goes out, it has to be verified.
It cannot come f rom a private organization.
1 S:
I understand that it must be f rom some government of ficial.
But he has no knowledge and therefore he is not going to say anythint But he is going to cover himself.
S:
Who are you going to trust in a situation like that?
S:
I just don't know.
M:
So, you would be a little suspicious?
S:
Yes.
1 M:
At the point when you heard that message, how much danger do you think that you and your f amily would be in from what was happening in Shoreham?
1 L
1
_9_
S:
I wouldn't be in immediate danger like a couple of people right here but I I
would try to evacuate.
But I don't think there would be any point in t ryi ng a t that point because there would be mass hysteria.
S:
Everybody would be going west on the Expressway.
If something serious happened, eve rybody would be out there.
You would never move, not on the LIE.
S:
I am 20 miles away, and I would not know what to do.
Do I try to leave?
Do I stay? I am thirsty, do I drink the water?
What do you do? That's the big problem, here you are in your own home and you don't know what to do.
S:
Hearing an announcement like that, I would say 7 of the 10 people in this room would definitely want to get out.
How many people in Suffolk County?
EBS #2 Played I
(This is the emergency broadcast system. The eme rgency broadcast system has been activated due to an incident at the Shoreham Nuclear Power Station. This is a The site area emergency condition wa's declared at 8:19 a.m. today at the test.
Shoreham Nuclear Power Station. A very minor release has occur red.
A site area l
emergency is one of four emergency classifications and indicates that a maj or l
l plant's safety system could f ail. The local emergency response organization f or I
residents living in a 10 mile emergency planning zone around Sho reham has been activated and is responding to the incident.
The Director of local response for emergencies for the Shorehan Nuclear Power Station, Jay Kessler, has consulted with LILC0 of ficials and nuclear engineers and has recommended the fcilowing public action.
Schools within the 10 mile emergency planning zone should l
)
. ]
continue to implement their early dismissal plans.
The dismissal of school children is part of the emergency plan adopted before Shoreham was put in operation.
It does not mean that a release of radiation is isninent.
Parents f
should not drive to school to meet their children.
If you live within the 10 1
mile emergency planning zone, you should ref er to your Shoreham Public Emergency j
Procedures brochure to determine the planning zone in which you live because it could be useful in helping you to understand future messages.
All silk producing animals in Zones A, B, C, D and E should be moved into shelters and placed on stored feed.
The 10 mile emergency planning zone around Shoreham is roughly bounded by Main Street in downtown Riverehead to the east, Main Street in Port Jef f erson to the west, and Sunrise Highway'to the south.
If you live within the 10 mile emergency planning zone you would have received periodic newsletters and other emergency information.
If you are not within these boundaries, there is no reason for you to take any action.
If you are located within the 10 mile planning zone and do not have a Shoreham Public Emergency i
l Procedures brochure, public information and a map of the zone are included in a 1
special insert of the Suf folk County telephone book and a more detailed map is
)
l in the local yellow book. A very minor release of radiation has occurred.]
i l
l
~
M:
First, wh at did this message say about the safety system at the nuclear l
powe r plant?
S:
It is in danger of f ailure.
It seems like you are in a little bit more of a state of emergency now and yet you are being urged not to panic, not to go pick l
l your children up from school.
And you know that most mothers are not going to l
sit home.
They are not going to be able to sit home.
~
. i S:
The conflicting inf o rmation they give you.
There are two parts of the message; one says there has been no release, the other says there has been a small release.
Conflicting; they don't know what they are saying.
It sounds like they are pretty sure that there has been some sort of a release because they want you to take all milk producing animals away.
It cells me that they don't quite know what is going on, how bed it is.
So they are taking all these precautions.
They should have told us what they were doing to reassure us i
aore.
M:
How clear did you find this message?.
S:
It was mcre specific.
3:
Why do they keep going on abtat the posters.
I keep hearing it.
S:
I wonder how much the 10 mile radius means.
If you are 10 miles from the 10 mile radius, what then?
If there is a radiation leak, the radiation won't stop at 10 miles.
S:
Even though they are saying it is a small leak, they are obligated to call you because LILCO is under so much public pressure right now.
I live across tne i
street f rom Brookhaven National Laboratory, a f ederal installation, and it has
]
probably had several releases over the past forty years.
Yet we have never heard about them because they are under no public pressure to tell anybody anything. Wh at do you consider a small release or a big release? How many smoke alarms do you have in your home? They have radioactive sources in them, they are releasing small amounts of radiation as long as you have them.
And
l i
1 l
what happens when they wear out, what do you do with them, throw enem in the l
l garbage and they go into the landfills.
Shoreham they have to tell you about l
because of public opinion and everybody is panicking because our local news media has decided to take on the bandwagon and blow it up out of proportion.
I i
i i
S:
But you are going to panic anyway.
l 1
S:
Unders tood but before it became public, there wasn't that much ado about it.
l S:
I think the key thing is what is a small release to the average layman.
He doesn't care if it is a small release or a medium release.
At 7 a.m. there was no release; I am sure that wa s un t rue.
S:
When did you first realize that Shoreham may be a danger to you?
S:
Af ter Three Hile Island.
Bef ore that, you didn't even know it existed.
Basically, it was just there being built.
Shoreham broke ground f or it 24 I
l years ago; there was no public opinion then.
l S:
It doesn't make any dif f erence how long ago they had them.
What is happening is that the public is getting educated; we have seen disasters that have happened over a period of time and they are finding that people have been permanently damaged due to it.
So what Long Islanders are af raid of now, is
- hat that could be done.
And they are trying to become educated and they are I
l being fooled because of all the political vibes. We d o wa nt to know, and we do i
want to protect our families.
That is the question. We want to know what is going on and here with two tapes we don't know what is going on.
l
. M:
So, you feel that these messages don't really tell you what has happned?
S:
No, they don't tell us a thing. They tell us don't panic.
They tell us that they are doing some kind of an evacuation, e.g., getting the childten home early f rom school and that is lef t up to the schools to do.
They are' not telling a f amily what to do; they are not telling people how to get of f of Long Island and that is one of the biggest problems.
They cannot tell us how to get off this Island.
They can't.
But they want to open this and what is happening is that we don't know enough about the nuclear plant but we have f ear because we are not allowed to know.
S:
If there is no reason to be afraid, why not educate us? My brother-in-law' works fo r LILCO and he obviously is pro-Shoreham. Why not educate the public; h e wo n ' t even take the time to educate me, what about the public?
M:
Who would do this education? LILCO? Would you believe anything that they would say?
S:
Possibly not; probably not, I should say.
Who are the f orces behind LILCO.
I know there are strong lobbies in Washington; a lot of very, very powe ef ul Republican leade rs.
If they want it that badly, start educating us.
S:
The problem is'the evacuation.
No matter what happens, no matter how
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we know.
l l
M:
What else did this message say?
S:
They had a wa rning about the milk producing animals.
i
, M:
When you heard this about the animals, what would that make you think was happening at the plant?
3:
That radiation had been released and not only are the animals breathing it and getting it, we are.
9 M:
But what would you do?
I S:
Buy seed stock.
Now that is the question.
I think you would probably go out and pick up some powdered milk; now you are going to have the stores 1
bombarded. What about the public water supply? You are afraid of any milk products and also any of your produce.
And in the future besides.
So you vill be going through your canned goods.
j S:
I don't think you will be hanging around that long.
I would definitely be l
gone.
M:
Would you stay in your house.
I S:
I probably would stay in my house because I would not wa nt to get involved
)
sith that mass evacation.
S:
I would go down in my basement.
S:
My first reaction would have been fear because of non-education.
S:
I work in the city and I would be coming east. Would they stop me or would they allow me to travel in that direction?
1 I
1 i
l f
. M:
If there were LILCO employees out in the street, directing traffic, what i
would you do?
S:
I would run them over.
To get to your f amily, I think you would take all measures.
S:
I wonder if the LILCO employees would be there?
S:
My lifespan has already been reduced at this point.
S:
Just sit in your basement.
S:
Why do you keep saying basement, do you have a shield there?
S:
No, wh at you wa n t to do is to put as much room between you and the outside world as possible.
Basically, you wouldn't wa nt to get out on the road for any reason.
S:
I was always considering going east because west would be ridiculous.
S:
Montauk Point is a good place to go.
59 miles is a good distance.
But there is only one road out there.
M:
When you heard this message did you believe that LILC0 was telling you the complete truth about Sho reham?
S:
No.
It brings back too many thoughts about Russia and how they denied the e n2 t h.
Periodically, you heard a little bit more.
M:
Where was that accident? Does anybody know how f ar the radiation spread?
l
i*
I
. I S:
I was going to ask you that.
S:
I believe it circled the globe as a radioactive cloud.
It went up through Scandinavia with the winds.
It may have gone to Switzerland, about 60 miles from Minsek is where it started and they ef fectively evacuated 20 miles.
S:
I wonder how long it would take honestly to get ou'c.
Are we talking days?
l S:
10-14 hours to get of f the Island.
5:
Oh no, I would say more than that.
S:
I have been on the Expressway 3 hours3.472222e-5 days <br />8.333333e-4 hours <br />4.960317e-6 weeks <br />1.1415e-6 months <br /> f rom Port Washington to Port Jef f.
On not even a heavy day.
And we are talking everybody is leaving; we are talking days.
S:
Your biggest problem would be vehicles that broke down.
From lack of fuel or mechanical problems.
M:
At this poinc, when you heard this second message, how much danger do you feel that you and your f amily would be in?
l S:
A lot.
EBS# 3 Played.
M: What did this message say?
S:
I thought it said the same thing as the one before it.
1
. S:
No, you have the teams coming in.
It also says it is going to release into the air, the last time it only said it was released.
It also didn't say anything about your kids this time.
This is three separate. scenarios.
It is the same message each time with more info rmation.
S:
You know what would worry me though is that if it went into the air and they are sending teams out but each time it is getting worse.
Nothing reassuring about it.
M:
Would you feel more or less reassured after this message?
S:
Le s s.
S:
It is tough to be reassured about anything at this point.
No matter how 1
they report it.
I wouldn't believe anything, no matter what they said to me.
Especially what they said about the livestock.
l S:
They a re still telling you that they don't know what happened or how much danger you are in.
l S:
Listening to this, this is a f ear that I live with.
This sends chills up my spine.
Someday I will see something like this happening and I know that I am
)
gone.
It is really f rightening.
M:
You wouldn' t try to leave?
S:
I really see no point in it.
Number one I have to pass the plant.
I am so close to the plant, I see it eve ry day.
If they are making an announcement, I l
,e l
o
. s it know radiation has leaked.
I have bevn exposed, whether it is a fast death or a l
slow death, is really my option.
Iflyr,u have been exposed to so much radiation, j
your chances are not good.
j S:
Generally, t hey don' t wa nt to evacuate people until the dangst is passed.
i S:
Knowing LILCO t hough, they are not going to release any information unless they foresee or they have had a release.
j i
S:
How much can we t rust the LILCO plant if there is an in-house minor I
problem? How much can si trust them, if they should evacuate us.
Would thel/
try to cover up something?
l l
S:
I t hink so.
1
/
S:
Who is this guy Jay Kessler, a LILCO employee?
l
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l M:
Who do you think he is?
l l
S:
A local emergency response director.
I would tend to think that he was a government of ficial, although there is absolutely no basis for my belief other than premonition.
M: What if the media said that Jay Kessler was a LILCO employee?
l l
S:
Oh, goodbye.
l M:
The local response organization is completely made up of LILCO employees, i
l l
in fact, there was no government involved in this.
(
1 i
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_19 i
i l
S:
I believe there is a higher authority involved.
)
S:
I have a question here.
First of all Wiluhl was let go as a President because he was held responsit te for mismanagement at Sho reham. There were cracks in this and this was detective in that.
Catacosinos did not change a damn thing that Wiluhl did.
So it is still crap, it is still defective.
So the man does not have a job, someone jtst replaced him as President and they haven't changed a thing.
S:
That is what I was going to ask next, if they would announce on there the f
whereabouts of Catacosinos was headed away or what.
11 they said he was headed toward the plant, I would stay where I am but if they said he just had an eme rgency vacation in Greece, I am gone.
M: How would you f eel if you saw your neighbors beginning to leave?
S:
I would want to leave too.
I do not wa nt to be there all by myself.
S:
If my f ather-in-law stays, then I would leave because he is an operator at Shoreham and he believes eve rything that is going on.
M:
I aa going to play the next message.
EBS/rf Played.
M:
What would you do af ter this message?
S:
What if the leak isn't that bad.
I think you have to try to sas a your life j
and take your best shot. Af ter the first or second warning, you st erced walking l
you can walk pretty f ar in five hours.
I think you can have a c'aance.
l I
.s
- I i
+
- n s
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-2 0..
a N
S:
L:' this point, I think it is pretty bad. Aren't there a lot more than
(
s 100,000 people in that 10 mile zone.
S:
I am not sure exactly, I know there is at least that and probably a lot more.
And that is this year.
M:
Now what did that message tell people who live outside the 10 mile zone to l
do?
S:
!4ot to wo rry.
M:
Do you believe them?
l S:
Nc.
M:
What if they had some 1,ILCO nuclear engineers tell you that nothing serious was happening?
l S:
Who is paying their salaries? They are congenital liars.
I wouldn't believe them on a stack of bibles.
M:
What if you had scientists who were saying that it was a very serious condition and people should leave?
S:
Yes.
If it was that bad, you would go.
M:
So at this point, how much danger do you think that you and your f amily would be in?
S:
If you were still thera, I believe you would have been exposed already.
l l
1
S: We don't know since we are outside the area.
S:
It says if you live in the area, they have sent you the information and I guess it is my own fault, but I keep throwing the junk mail away without opening it.
The only thing I open f rom LILCO 1 s my bill. Also the thing in the Suf folk phone book; it ke pt falling out so it we nt in the ga rbage.
And the yellow book, I don't think I have anything in there either.
So I don't know what area I am in.
Now if you are. going to put your cows indoors and put them on stored grain and then leave, they are going to drop dead because they cannot get any more stored grain themselves because their hands don',t work too well in that sense.
So why bother?
M:
Assume that you live within the 10 mile zone and that you are in one of those areas that they told to evacuate.
What would you do when yo2 heard that message?
S:
I would be more concerned at this point, particularly since they said to make your house completely airtight, close tne dampers, make sure everything is bolted down. Now you don't even have time to go shopping.
This has only been a matter of a couple of hours.
I would be ve ry nervous.
M: What would you do?
S:
I would try to discuss it calmly. Get my husband and children together.
I wouldn't kn ow wh a t to do.
S: You don't have to worry about shopping because they wouldn't let you out with any food.
No ma t t e r wha t it was.
If it is within the evacuation area, it L_____-___________--_-____-___---__-
l is contaminated.
Where is this reception center? Who is going to welcome you with open arms?
M: They would announce it.
It used to be the Nassau Colesium.
S:
But wouldn't the radiation extend that far?
S:
I would say nest people on Long Island are leaving.
And those people have been leaving since 7 a.m. this morning.
1 M: You are in the 10 mile zone what would you do? Would you listen to what LILCO was telling you?
i l
S: I would listen to everything they said.
This is the government telling you
(
l though, it is not LILCO is it?
M: This is LILCO.
This information comes f rom LILCO.
I S: Okay, but isn't the government the one who is dispersing it?
I M:
No, LILCO gives the information to the radio stations that are involved in
\\
this broadcast system.
So when you were told to evacuate, what would you do?
(
l S:
I would listen to them.
But I wouldn't ge t out there on the roads.
l
(
l S:
I would present my passport to the customs inspector in Be rmuda.
S:
I would probably leave.
j l
M:
What about you, you are in the zone?
l 1
l l
l L___________
S: At this point, it sounds like it is more localized now.
I really still don't think I would get any further than che Long Island Expressway.
It is ridulous.
So, I would probably stay.
S:
I am wondering with all the traf fic at this point, if you walked ha far would you ge t?
S: I also have livestock.
I would have a lot to consider.
I would be leaving a lot.
They are already telling me to bring my livestock in and you cannot just leave livestock.
I have already been exposed, I think I would take my chances.
S: That is the other thing, how far do you go? Do you go from E. Yaphank to Port Jeff and then stop?
S: Do I get over 112?
}
M: Would you do that?
S: Probably not.
But it would be according to the vibes I am getting around the table, it would be a nice place to stay because nobody else would be there.
S: The scenario has been getting progressively worse and worse.
I am getting to the point where I would consider destroying the livestock, as hard as that
~
might be, lecause that might be the best thing fo r them.
S: That's true except I have been exposed to as such as they have been.
S:
I understand.
l
,* S:
The thing is we are still talking about the same radiation, myself and the animals?
S:
I think you have to allow for overreaction.
What is they are wrong, what if the leak isn't that bad?
I think you have to try to save your life and take your best shot.
Af ter the first or second warning, if you started walking, you can walk pretty far in five hours.
I don't know if you can save your lif e, but maybe you can.
M: Do you think that the thing would evacuate an entire 10 mile zone?
100.000 people?
S:
I think at this point it is ve ry bad.
M:
Now what did this message tell people who live outside the 10 mile zone?
S:
Not to wo rry.
M: What if they had some LILCO engineers on TV they were interviewing and they we re saying that nothing serious is happening and don't leave?
S:
They are congenital liars.
M:
You wouldn't believe them?
S:
Not on a stack of bibles.
Vould you bel'ieve people if they had scientists who we re saying that M:
it wa s a very serious and dangerous condition and people should leave?
. S: Yes.
l I
S:
If it was that bad you wouldn't be listening to the TV or radio.
M:
So at this point, how much danger do you think you and your f amily would be in?
S: You would have been exposed already.
I EBS4F Played.
M: What did this message tell people?
l l
S:
Told eve rybody to get out.
M:
Was that a clear message?
S:
Yes, ve ry clear.
l l
M:
You felt it was clearer?
'a'h a t did it tell people who were outside the zone 1
l to do?
S:
To stay tuned because there may be changes which tells me that I better start preparing if I haven't already.
M:
Would you believe LILCO that you were safe if you were outside the zone?
S:
No.
It is in the air.
l S:
How did they come up with a 10 mile area as the danger zone?
I believe it is that way all through the U.S.
I think they have set up the criteria for 10 l
l l
1
. i 1
miles. The Coast Guard is automatically notified to reroute shipping. How many disasters have there been to come up with a 10 mile radius.
S:
Do they take an average of the only one in the U.S.
It has probably been done by simulation.
M:
First they thought it would be virtually impossible to have an accident, then they began to gradually to feel that maybe there could be some accidents, but they we ren't really dangerous so they would only have to evacuate people in small areas.
Many scientists said it was impossible for that kind of accident l
l co happen at Chernobyl.
And it happened; even if the chances were 1 in 5,000 j
I years.
1 i
S:
People in Jamespo rt, for example, have to virtually go through the area to 1
get away.
Is that part of the routing?
1 M:
What is your image of how radiation ef f ects you?.
S:
I am just assuming that enough has been released that they want to evacuate l
so there is already a danger.
We all know that radiation has ef fects on you; j
they don't know to what extent except that a certain dose will kill you.
My life I figure is going to be shortened in sooe way just by the fact that they i
want to evacuate.
l l
1 M:
Do you assume that the length of time that you were exposed to this I
radiation is not impo rtant?
Say exposed for 5 minutes or an hour?
S:
No I am assuming that the longer you are exposed to it the faster that your death will come.
However, I figure it is going to take me a good hour just to
. get past the plant even if I walked it.
So already my exposure then depending
]
l on the level that is being released is high, as we are hearing f rom this it is a j
high level, I know Brookhaven releases all the time.
So I know we are all exposed to it but for them to evacuate you know it is not a minor thing, so it is just how much time and how long. You are cutting your lif espan.
M:
But you wouldn 't be worried about the duration of exposure for you to want
)
to leave?
S:
I don't feel I could leave, I am not going to get very f ar.
)
M:
So even though LILCO cold you that you were in danger and you should leave, you wouldn't leave?
S:
I wouldn't believe them and I don't think I could get past the 10 mile zone to be perf ectly honest because I have people coming f rom the east, just traffic wise.
I cannot get out of my road in the summer, we are talking about a two lane road. You just can't.
It is just not feasible that I will get anywhere.
M:
One more message EBSihd Played M:
L'h a t were you told in this message?
S:
They were told there was a major release of radiation.
M:
How clear?
. S:
Ve ry clear.
S:
Evacuate within 10 miles; outside do not.
They don't tell me what to do, they don't know what to tell me.
S:
They don't give you wind directions; where is it going.
I think they should say hurry up and get out.
M:
What dc you think that meant about 5 MRB7 S:
The maximum radiation that you are permitted to absorb prior to dangerous.
That is a timed volume dosage; an X-ray is so much.
A child whether 12 received at 2 miles 4 times the maximum dosage within a period of time (400%)
and at a certain other distance the f urther you go f rom the site the radiation is dissipated, it is not as strong.
I left at 7 a.m.
S:
The thing that I noticed with this message that none of the others stated, it declared the emergency at 9:39, the release was at 12 o' clock.
The scenario started at 6:17 and there were hours between other reports.
M:
What did the message tell you to do individually?
5:
Well, it told ae to evacuate.
I am still nervous about it, I do not know whether to evacuate or not.
l M:
You are out of the zone?
S:
A little bit.
The message said to call or listen for f urther messages.
I would still be hesitant as to whether I would leave or not, because I do not
. f know how far I am going to get.
That radiation is going to be traveling with the wind and by the time you get to Nassau County, probably a good many who reside in Suf folk County will have had a good dosage of the radiation.
S:
What if it's coming out of the weet? You have a gcod chance of getting out.
Let me guard against being too pessimistic.
I do not urderstand the j
l rationale.
S:
They are telling people in Port Jef f to stay there, but I am going right by you.
S:
Le t me j us t ask you something. You are supposedly having LILCO employees directing all this.
They now know that there is a problem, are they going to stand there out in traffic?
No.
I don't think you would find them.
S:
We are not being realistic about any of this.
It is just not going to I
happen.
No one is going to get off this Islat;. There is going to be chaos, I
people killing each other.
There is going to be mob rule.
M:
LILCO says that if an accident really happened at Shoreham, that people I
would listen to instructions f rom LILCO and do what LILCO told them to do.
Do you think that LILCO is right about this?
S:
I think most people whether you are 10 miles within the radius or not, my first reaction to danger is to get away from the danger and I think that is also the way that most people on L.I. will react.
M:
LILCO says that in the cases of other kinds of disasters, natural disasters like hurricanes, to rnados and floods, that people do not leave, they just stay.
And LILCO says that that is the same thing that would happen here.
l
. S:
It is not; because with something like this it in f ear of cne unknown.
We have seen hurricanes come and go, earthquakes and everything else. This is 1
really unknown, we don't know anything about it.
And the long term ramifications.
And the distrust of the government.
The whole public opinion has grown and once that first message comes across, I think there will be j
l madness. LILCO will not be able to reason with people's fears.
l M:
Do you see any dif ference between the danger of a nuclear accident and the danger from the natural disasters?
i l
S:
First of all, there are no long lasting ef fects to the hurricane, or a flood, it is gone and you don't have radiation sticking around for how many ye a rs.
You can see a tree f all, you cannot see radiation.
Not unless there is j
an explosion.
You only see the particles of air coming down.
But radiation is l
l invisible.
S:
You are also talking aobut material things being destroyed here. Radiation i
can kill your kids and your kid's kids too.
M:
But what if say somebody f rom Brookhaven Lab, a nuclear scientist, came on television when this was happening and said that there is not a lot of radiation l
l l
coming out and your fears are ungrounded?
l S:
I would have to see his financial statement and what school he went to.
Show me who he is.
What comes out of Shoreham and what comes out of a controlled environment are two different things.
It is not controlled.
l A scientist a couple of years ago f rom Brookhaven came out with a statement that
l e
l was pro-Shoreham, he put out a booklet.
The Scientists f rom Brookhaven Lab For l
the Opening of Sho reham.
M:
Would you believe them? Presumably there would be some press coverage.
S:
Nuclear scientists, first and foremost the physicists, would you believe j
some of the physicists at Stony Brook?
l 1
M:
So you wouldn't believe them?
G:
Af ter hearing all of this. I would believe the basic premise that people should not panic but I would find fault with his reasoning because there is not f
that much radiation.
I wouldn't take the chance of believing him and him being wrong, being paid of f by somebody, to calm down the populace.
M:
Because there would probably be other scientists saying that it is d ange rou s.
You would have to evaluate.
Under those conditions, what you would do?
l l
S:
What did them more harm chan Three Mile Island or Chernobyl was last year's hurricane.
Public opinion went against them.
People who sat w1;hout electric f or seven days, eight or nine, while their food rotted in their f reezers. That l
did them harm.
S:
I think when a company has turmoil within, we disbelieve them. We know fo r a fact that the whole construction is incorrect.
I do not believe they have corrected anything, I don't see how they could.
l l
I t
I i M:
Would you take directions f rom LILCO employees if they were directing i
traffic?
S:
I do not think anybody would.
I think everyone would try to find their own f astest way of getting out.
Do you know how slow the traffic would be.
I do not think the LILCO employees would stay around.
If Sho reham is truly looking f or a better way of evacuating L.I., they should be lobbying in Albany right now to finish the service roads on the side of the Expressway around Shoreham that 1
They have six now and in some I
start and s top, to get an extra four lanes.
places, ten, but you have to get on and of f the Expressway. There are just too many people. You mean to tell me that in 24 years they never thought of these things when they were building a nuclear plant on the eastern end of Long l
l Isla nd. You are talking about money, labor. Thece was a lot of money made 1
there.
Before public opinion turned, they were going to put another one in i
'l l
Jame s po rt.
M:
Doas anybody have any other ideas?
S:
I always think about the long term ef fects.
The water supply, the animals,
the grass, the potatoes, all of it.
I do not even know if it happened if 1 y
i l
would ever come back.
l l
\\
l i
l S:
Even if you were able to would you be happy coming back.
I wouldn' t.
Look 1
at Three Mile Island and that was a minor situation.
Chernobyl is going to be closed for 1500 years.
Something on that style.
1 M:
Do you think that what happened at Chernobyl could happen here at Sho reham?
i 1
a 33-2:
Yes I do.
I absolutely think so.
S:
I think it is possible.
Maybe not that serious.
Granted the Russians don't let yoa know all the details but nuclear power plants are nuclear power plants. And the style that it was was a very old style with a dif ferent method chan is allowed in the U.S.
90% of the deaths f rom an accident in Sho reham would be caused by the panic that ensues.
M:
Given the fact that you believe most of the deaths would be caused in the t raf fic, why would you leave?
S:
Because there is a chance.
S:
And the fear of the unknown would cause me to go, we know what can happen to us on the roads.
M:
Do you f eel that the f urther away f rom it you got the safer you would be?
S:
You have a chance, you have to try, the wind might be in your f avor.
S:
We don' t wa nt to think about it.
End of messages and tape.
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