ML20236D519
| ML20236D519 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 10/21/1987 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| References | |
| REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8710280244 | |
| Download: ML20236D519 (70) | |
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UNITED STATES M AMERICA.
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION i
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Title:
Briefing on the Federally Funded
~
Research and~ Development Center (FFRDC')
Location:
Washi ngton, D. C.
Date:
Wednesday, October 21, 1987 7.s,
.L :
Pages:
1 46 Ann Riley & Associates Court Reporters '
1825 i Street, N.W., Suite 921
'{f Washington, D.C. 20006 (202) 293-3950 8710280244 a71021 PDR 10CFR PDR PT9.7
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This.ls ab unofficial transcript of a meeting of the 7
United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission held on 8-lO[2l/87 In the Commission's office at 1717 H Street, 9
'ti.W.,
Washington, D.C.
The meeting was open to public 10-attendance and observation.
This transcript has not been 11 reviewed, corrected, or edited, and it may contain Q
12
~ inaccuracies.
13 The transcript is intended solely for general 14 i nf orma t i ona l, purposes.
As provided by 10 CFR 9.103, it is 15 not part of the formal or informal record of decision of the 16 matters discussed.
Expressions of opinion in this transcript 17 do not necessarily reflect final determination or beliefs.
No 18 pleading or other paper may be filed with the Commission in 19 any proceeding as the result of or addressed to any statement 20 or argument contained herein, except as the Commission may 21, authorize.
22-23 1
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25
1
(
1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
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2 NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION I
3 l
4 BRIEFING ON THE FEDERALLY FUNDED 5
RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT CENTER (FFRDC) 6 7
PUBLIC MEECING 8
9 Nuclear' Regulatory Commission 10 Room 1130 11 1717 H Street, Northwest 12 Washington, D.C.,
13
('
14 WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 21, 1987 15 16 The commission met in open session, pursuant to 17 notice, at 2:00 p.m., the Honorable LANDO W.
ZECH, Chairman of 18 the commission, presiding.
19 COMMISSIONERS PRESENT:
20 LANDO W.
- ZECH, Chairman of the Commission 21 THOMAS M. ROBERTS, Member of the commission 22 FREDERICK M. BERNTHAL, Member of the Commission 23 KENNETH C. ROGERS, Member of the Commission 24 k_.
25 1
4 2
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STAFF AND PRESENTERS SEATED AT COMMISSION TABI2:
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~J.
GUTTMANN 4
W..PARLER.
5-V. STELLO 6
H. THOMPSON j
7 R.
BROWNING 8
J.
BUNTING j
1
'9 R.
BOSNAK
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10 11 AUDIENCE SPEAKERS:.
12 13 M. GOLAND 14 15-
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16 17-18 19 20 21 22 23 c
24 25
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l2 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
Good afternoon.
3 This afternoon the~ Commission ~will be briefed by.the 1
4-Office of= Nuclear' Material-Safety and Safeguards on the status i
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of'their efforts.to' establish'a Federally. Funded Research.and'
-6
. Development Center.
7
-The center will be used to carry out technical 8
. assistance'and:research as related to the NRC's regulatory 9
activities'under the Nuclear Waste Policy Act.
10-The Commission approved establishing a Center for 11=
Technical Assistance and Research on high level waste issues to 12-preclude any. potential conflicts of interest and to assure the-k
- availability of a cadre of experts to assist the agency in 13 14L licensing.a national high level waste repository.,,
15 It is my understanding that a contract for the center 16 management has recently been awarded, and initially the 17
. contract will run for five years.
18 Addi.ionally, the Commission has recently received a 19 proposed charter for the center and should take action on it i
20 sometime soon.
21 This is an information meeting this afternoon and no 22; Commission vote is expected.
23 Do any of my fellow commissioners have any opening 24
. comments?
7,,
()
25 (No response.]
4 4
I 1
If.not, Mr. Stello, you may proceed.
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2 MR. STELLO:
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I will be 3
brief.
4 It is, I think, an important milestone in our program 5
that we have finally concluded what has turned out to be a two 1
6 year program to come to a conclusion on the contract.
And for i
7 those who probably weren't here this morning, it seems that 8
anything that we do does take indeed a long time.
Most 9
business in the government seems to be that way.
f 10 With respect to the FFRDC, there are about 30 of them i
11 in the Federal Government that have been built up over the n
12 years, and a lot of them are used in the Department of Defense l
13 and Department of Energy.
So, what we are embarking on is not 14 new to the Federal Government.
It is an activity that 'they 15 had.
t 16 We felt it was very important to do this because of f
17 the unique situation we are in with respect to high level 18 waste, where the Department of Energy really is in charge of 19 most of our labs where we would be inclined to get this kind of 20 expertise, to really have someone that is truly, completely 21 independent of the DOE process which, for the high level waste 22 facilities, will be licensee.
We think that this is a very, 23 very important step in the process and we are glad to be at 24 this point.
/
25 I will ask Hugh to introduce the people here at the a
w.____-______
i 1
table,today and to make some preliminary comments, and we will 2-'
go through a~very quick briefing.
And anything that the 3
Commission wishes to spend time on in detail, we will be happy 4
to do that, too.
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5 Hugh.
6 MR. THOMPSON:
Thank you, Mr. Stello.
7 With me today at the table on my right is'Mr. Bob 8
Bosnak, representing the Office of Research, who is Deputy 9
Director of the Division of Engineering; Mr. Bob Browning, who 10 is our Director of the Division of High Level Waste; and Joe 11 Bunting, who is the Chairman of the Source Evaluation Panel.
12 Joe will be giving today's briefing.
He lias been directly 13 involved on this.
14 Mr. Chairman, as I know, you have emphasized l
15 frequently the importance of teamwork in the conducting of our l
16 business.
I would like to think that this is one example that
'17 we have really had some outstanding teamwork between the office-
'18 of NMSS, R,esearch, the office of contracts, the General 19 Counsel's Office, and really assuring ourselves that this 20 procurement process went along meeting all the rules, 21 regulations of the procurement practice, at the same time 22 ensuring we had a high quality product.
23 So, I am very pleased and I think you will also be 24 pleased with the quality of the contractor selected.
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25 obviously, part of the hard work was selecting one, but also
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'now to bringing the contractor'up:on. board is another key' L
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element that we willthave to continue'our teamwork:on,.to be 3:
able.to do that.
i
'4-I would note that Mr. Martin Goland,-who is the.
1 5-
' President'of the Southwest Research Institute, is'in the l
6 audience today, which indicates again his personal interest as-o 7
well'as other members of his staff in~uri erstanding the.
d 8
challenge that is ahead for both of us, and I think that is a 9
_ good indication of his commitment.
10 CHAIRMAN ZECH: ' We welcome you, sir.
11 MR. THOMPSON:
Joe.
12 MR. BUNTING:
Mr. Chairman, members of the l
13 Commission,.this hopefully will be a simple status report of L
14-some things.we have to tell you, that we have completed the 15 evaluation,.the contract has been awarded, and we will have the 16 initial kick-off-meeting with the contractor on Monday, the 17-26th, and that will start our process of getting this contract 18 up to speed.
19 If you would turn now to Chart No.
2, I would like to 20 take just a few minutes to remind you why we did this.
21-(Slide.)
22 If you will recall, we were 1caing the contractors 23' who were working for us.
You will recall we ha.d contractors 12 4 that we had gotten up to speed and they were going to work for
( 4 25 other States and tribes working on this project, s
as well as 4
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DOE.
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2 We saw the potential for some problems ahead and we i
3
~ convinced the office director at that time, John Davis, to let 4
us proceeding talking with OMB about how to solve that problem.
5 And we concluded, after talking to OMB, that we had really a l
6 classic case to support the need for a Federally Funded l
7 Research and Development Center.
8 So, we made that recommendation to the Commission and l
l 9
the Commission did approve it.
10 It is the best way you can get the assurance for long 11 term continuity.
You do not have to recompete at the end of 1
12 five years, but you retain the option to do that.
And the l
l 13 contractor also accepts some severe restrictions on conflict of l
k.
14 interest in order to have that privilege of not having to l
l 15 recompete at the end of five years.
16 So, if you would, turn now to Chart No.
3.
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17
[ Slide.]
18 OMB sets up the requirements for a Federally Funded 19 Research and Development Center, and'I have picked out a couple 20 here which I thought would be worthy to call to your attention.
21 It must be managed as a nonprofit autonomous unit, l
l 22 not just another project charge account within the
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l 23 organization.
24 It must remain free from conflict of interest, and he 25 must agree to forego all work for all other parties who could l
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.be a1 participant in this high level waste proceeding.- That' L p(,..g - 2l includes States,-tribes,=as well as the Department of: Energy.
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'3 l And there is a long. term relationships that is 4.
evidenced by the charter and a memorandum'of. understanding and 5'
-the contract itself.
I 6
But'since this is an exception to the normal
'7 procurement, we have to be careful that we use'this vehicle 8'
only for the specific purposes for which it was created.
That 9
is, the High Level Waste Program only.
I 10 If you would, turn to Chart 4.
j
-11 (Slide.]
12
- For these benefits that we derive, we do. incur a few
- 13 obligations, and I have picked our a few here,.also from.the 14 OMB Manual.
-15 We must be committed to develop a long-term special 4
16 relationship with the contractor to provide the continuity of 17 effort and to allow him to attract and retain the high quality 18 technical people we need to carry out our mission.
l 19 We 'must assur.e the continuity in the level of i
-l I
20 support.
We are not supposed to have oscillations in the I
21 level, and therefore we have a requirement, don't let it grow 22 faster and get to a level that we can't sustain.
Ups and downs 23 in the level of effort would be detrimental to attracting and 24 retaining the excellence that we need.
)
25 Since we are the sponsor of an FFRDC, other federal A
4 9
1-
. agencies may use it. -But we have to control that access.. And 2
-we have: indicated in.the contract, we wouldn't anticipate 3
granting that access, at least for the.first three years until 4,
we have them up and running and we feel like there may be some 5
way we could let someone else use this.
6 We'must provide management oversight to make sure 7
that'the' operation of the FFRDC adheres to its charter and that 8-
'tha. objectives of technical excellence are being met.
9 And we must provide sufficle'nt government technical 10.
expertise ~to manage, direct and control and evaluate the work 11 the' contractor is doing.
4
'12.
We will turn to Chart No.
5.
13 (Slide.)
1 14 Up until now, I have been talking about FFRDCs.
I 15 would t.)at now to drop the term, FFRDC,.and talk about the 16 center for Nuclear Waste Regulatory Analyses, which.will be our t
17 version of an FFRDC.
We are calling it HThe Center" for short, 18 since we can't pronounce the acronym.
19 The charter is, again, limited to the High Level 20 Waste Program.
21 For the purposes of the evaluation, the initial work ths' contractor will be doing, we have groupod the work 22 23 activities into three broad categories.
24 Things that cut across all elements we have grouped
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25 under the waste systems engineering and integration and overall l
E__ _ _ -
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O 10 1
programmatic ~ activities, i
2' COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
This just means that you have 3
failed in the first responsibility of a federal official, and 1
4 that is to select a name that has a good acronym that can be j
5 pronounced easily.
4 6
(Laughter.]
7 MR. BUNTING:
Yes, sir.
8 The terms, long term performance for geologic setting 9
and engineered barriers, those are terms which are used in 10 J
10 C.F.R. 60, and they have to do with the multiple barrier ii 11 concept of the regulation.
-l 12 The performance of the MRS and the repository also
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13 includes the consideration for the design and construction of a
14 the repository or the MRS.
15 The last category there is somewhat of a catchall.
16 We are trying to make this broad enough to cover the kinds of activities that we may.be forced to consider within the 20-plus 17 18 yea,rs that this program will be running.
And that is one of 19 the things that you can do with an FFRDC, is to make it broad.
20 Now, how do we tell the contractor exactly what it is 21 we want him to do at any given time?
22 If you will, turn to page 6.
23
[ Slide.]
24 We have laid out a mechanism in the contract where we (s
1 25 exchange things called program element plans, which are the 4
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specific'. things we want to do, and'he' responds with operations g)y
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.2-
-plans, which:are'his methods of how he'is going to:get it 31 accomplished.'
'4 We-intend to do this each year and-provide him a'five 1
5'
. year' plan horizon and identify specific things we want done in 6
the next twv. years that we can identify today, update-these 7
things every years, and we would try and have this coordinated 8-with the budget formulation process so we~have got'the inputs l
9 for the budget when we do this.
10 Now, when he responds and comes.in with his proposed
'll manner;of satisfying our requirements, those will be negotiated 12
<and incorporated in the contract by the Division of contracts, 13
.and that will become the basis, then, a basis on which we will l
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4
' udge his. performance at six month intervals and.make'a f
j 14.
15-determination as to how much, if any,' award fee shoula be 16 granted to the contractor.
17 If you will, turn to page 7.
18
[ Slide.)-
19 I have tried to lay out here -- and I will cover 20 these next to charts real quickly -- an example from the 21 contract of what the center's role would be in the geologic
'22
-setting, which is only one of the areas, one of the five areas
'23 we talked about.
24 These are illustrative.
Almost every program element
.m in there has things that are, if not identical, just about 25-
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l 12
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~identica1';to",tsis.
- 2 For the firstiyear, of. course, we are going'to be-
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3' limited.to developing and sustaining. expertise for-most.of it, 1
4
'but you will see later on that there are. specific research
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.5 transportation projects that we will be directing.in year'one.
l 6
If you will, turn.to page 8.
'7' (Slide.]
.l
'8 This is another example chart, again for the geologic 9
setting, and it-shows that in year one, in fact, it is a l
10 formative year.
.We are'asking him to get up to speed, to 11 develop and sustain his expertise, and to demonstrate to us he i
'12 has it by coming.up with an overall program plan and specific q
[.-
13 implementation plans for year two and beyond in each of the 1
14-five' areas of work.
.[ 15 Based on those plans, which will come back to us, we 16 will then approve, modify and give him' directions as to which 17 ones of those we want to carry out in year two.
18 If you will, turn now to page 9.
19 (Slide.]
20 This is an example of some of the work for researc'.
h 21 These are particular projects which.are directed in the l
l 22 Statement of Work to begin in year one.
They are multi-year 23 projects and they will not be completed in year one.
l 24 With respect to item No. 2, development of the
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f 25 integrated long-range research plan, I think it is of interest s
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13
'll to note this will:be the first time we have had an independent py,,)
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~2' look-see.at an integrated TA research program by'a' contractor 3
who is'able to see the entire program.
We have never had this 4
done_ before,: and I think we 'will se'e. better integration between 5
TA~and.re' search as a result of this.
6 If you would, turn now to page 10.
17.
[ Slide.]
8 We certainly can't ask the contractor to.do 9
everything on day one, a
10 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
Are you going to tell us-11_
anymore about some of those_ interesting subjects, or is that i
- 12 it?-
h'
- 13 MR. BUNTING:
I hadn't planned to, but we'have the 14 research people here.
If you would.1ike to go into them, we.
15 can.
16 MR. STELLO:- We would be happy to do that, if you 17 want to stop at,any one issue, if you want to just pick one.
18
, COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
I just took time to read it, I
19.
so maybe we might mention it, at least, as we go by.
Go ahead.
20 MR. BUNTING:
Okay.
On page 10, we have laid out c,ar 21 philosophy for phasing the contractor in.
It is our intention 22 that we would limit his work in year one to the proactive part 23 of the things we have to do.
24 Those are the requirements that derive strictly from 25 our regulation.
These would be compliance determination
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14 1
methods, guidance, and things like that.
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2 We would rely on the residual technical assistance i
3 contractors to support the staff in the reactive-portion of the 4
work, and that would be reviewing documents that would be 5
submitted to us by DOE during year one.
6 Of course, we will try not to start any new projects 7
outside the center, and we think that by the beginning of year 8
four we will have most all of our work phased into the center.
9 The funding profile which you se at the bottom of 10 the page is how we intend to fund the contractor over the five 11 years.
12 Now, that was put together a little over a year ago
-13 and there may be some minor modifications to that as we go 14 along.
15 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
I would assume that you 16 envision this entity as a fairly permanent one.
I don't see l
17 any prospect that this activity in the NRC, and a fairly high l
1 18 level of activ'ity, will diminish during any of our lifetime, 19 quite frankly.
20 Do you agree with that?
21 MR. BUNTING:
That is right.
And that is one of the 22 reasons for doing this, is to try to institutionalize that 23 support, rather than having it dependent upon. individuals.
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24 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
And so, five year bites of
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25 the contract here are standard procedure in these l
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2; MR.' BUNTING:1 We are limited by the procurement.
We I
3' can't have a contract for more than five' years.
But the 4
memorandum of understanding and the charter,'which you are l
5
.looking at, give evidence to the fact that we do envision this 6
to be a long term continuing process for 20-plus years.
~
7 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL: 'And that is obviously not 8
just a. rolling five years.
So, you renegotiate that?
Well, is 1
l 9.
it?
10 MR. STELLO:
No, we don't have to renegotiate 11 anything.
At the and of five years, our memorandum allows us 12
.just to continue, dur expectation is probably 20 years.
'13 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
I presume you want to be satisfied i~'
14 with'the performance.
15 MR. BUNTING:
That is correct.
16 MR. STELLO:
Absolutely.
17 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
So, essentially, it is a one,
18 way ball-out.
We.can bail cut at the and -- well, I suppose 19 they can bail out at the end of five' years.
20 MR. BUNTING:
They can bail out at the end of the 21 five years.
We have a five year commitment, like any other 22 contract.
The additional benefit we have is that rather than
~23 having to recompete and run the risk that someone else would 24 win, if we are satisfied with the support we are getting, we
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25 can direct the renewal contract to this contractor.
16 1
MR. STELLO:
We-don't: have' to lose two years 'at 'the t
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2
and if'fivel years, if everything is going well.
We can'just 3
' continue it.
That is the key.
4 COMMISSIONER'BERNTHAL:
Okay.
I think the General' 1
1 5-Counsel.wants to sayfsomething.
j l
6 MR. PARLER:~'Mr. Chairman, I haven't reviewed the 7
contract.
I have seen briefly some other papers.
I would just 8
hope that.the details about the sort.of things that the. people 9
have been talking about, the term of-the contract and so:on and' 10E so forth, are. clearly. spelled out in the contract documents a
- 11 themselves and are not dependent upon other things.
l l
12 I have heard two other things mentioned in this
(';.,.
briefing so far,-a memorandum just a momentLago, and a-
- 13 l
' 14 memorandum of und,erstanding at the beginning of the briefing.
15 So, these sort of things, in my judgment, should be clear in 16-the contract document itself.
j 17 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
Are they?
18 MR. THOMPSON:
I think that what we are talking 19 about, the terms of the contract are : lear within the document 20 itself and how it goes about renewal.
I think as we discussed 21 in a non-contractual, non-binding way out intent, is what we 22 would expect to see is this kind of long term established 23 relationship, is what I think these other documents related to, 24 though I think in a contractual state they are not -- we are
.hm
,,j 25 not bound and we can't bind ourselves beyond the five year
_________-__.__u__
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11
- peri'od.
l
}{f:f 4 12 COMMISSIONER.BERNTHAL:
I think what the Gerieral i
L
'3'
. Counsel,;if.I: interpret his comment right, is'saying is that 76 -
~ any memorandum ~of understanding that might impact the contract 5
.ought'to be run by him.
'6-MR. THOMPSON:
I believe I would make a'significant 7
effort to make sure.I include not only the' General Counsel,-but 8
th'e-Office of-Administration, the individuals who have our p
9
' purse ~ strings, as well as our Office of Research.- So, we are 110 going to coordinate any of these other documents clearly with 11 the other offices to make sure that the document that we' sign 12 is appropriate for the intended purpose.
4
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13 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
I want to get back to the
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'14 point here.
I assume, then, that in.about year four -- in' 15 other words, two years or so ahead o,f time, then -- you already 16' begin to look carefully at the question of satisfaction with i
17 performance.
18 MR. BROWNING:
Each year we do that.
19 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
All right.
So, it is a sort 20 of --
21 MR. BROWNING:
We don't wait until the end of five 22 years.
23 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
Good.
Okay.
24 MR. THOMPSON:
Actually, we will probably J ock at I(;.)
25 that almost like ecch month.
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18-
'There is actually a process-at my.
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'MR. BROWNINGt1
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2' level where we will be re-analyzing.what we are doing each i
3 month, because as you are all well aware unfortunately of the' l
4 twists and turns'of this program, we have to be extremely i
L I
5 flexible.. And we'probably will be reviewing it every month.
1 6.
CHAIRMAN ZECH:
All right.
Let's proceed.-
I L
.7 MR. BUNTING:
If you will,' turn to page 11.
8 (Slide.]
9 Thisichart lays out the oversight and management of i
l 10 the center and is essentially what is in paragraph 5 of the 11 charter, which is now before you for your consideration.
12 We have streamlined and arranged the management and 13
' oversight in accordance with the staff requirements memo, which
- (e 1
14 you sent down in response to the approval l
15 The Director of NMSS has full authority and 16 accountability for the center.
He is aided in his oversight by 17 an enhanced Waste Management Review Group, which reports 18 dir,ectly to him.
1 19 This individual and this body also has a dual tole in 20 response to your concern about the assessment, and that is, 21 this contract will be run with an award fee and there will be 22 periodic evaluations at six month periods.
.23
.The Waste Management Review Group will also function 24 as the Perf.ormance Review Board, and the Director of NMSS will
([
25-be the fee determination official.
And the amount of the fee U
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is directly proportional-to.how satisfied we are with the (s
2 l contractor's-results.
u 3
So,' he gets. direct feedback every six months'in the 4
form of how much fee is awarded.
"5 The' day to. day programmatic direction has been.
6 delegated to~an individual titled an.NRC Center' Program
.7 Manager,-and per.your directions the contract'will not exceed-8-
five years and-we will be back to get your determination for 3
i 9
the continuation for any renewals of that contract.
10 And: par.your direction, we will be here at least
.i 11 semi-annually to give you updates on how the center is 12 operating.
13 (Slide.]
1' 14
.On page 12,.I try to graphically display wh'at was on-l l
15 the chart,-to show the delegation of authority.and L
16 responsibility for the oversight and the day to day management,
'17 with the responsibility for oversight'being at the Director and i
18 the day to day authority being delegated to'an NRC Program 19 Manager, and the advisory role of the Waste Management Review 20 Group, which as you see would be chaired by the NMSS Deputy 21
-Director and have the vice chair from Research and senior
.22 managers from the user organizations with advisors from the 23 Division of Contracts and OGC.
24:
[ Slide.)
25 On page i3, I have tried to point out how the day to
o x.
20
.1; dayfprogrammatic direction would b'e given'to the center.
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2 We-must' define the-boxes-in which the parties can l
'3
. operate.
And what,we have decided to do in have,a program <
l 4
'4-element manager.forLeach of the five areas that I pointed:out.
l
'to'you earlier.
Not shown.on'this chart, there would be-5' L
6
- project offices under them.
But they would coordinate,the
]
7 formulation of the program elementLplans.
.I 8-
.Up here on the lefthand sido,.with the_ box called the 9
. Center Resource. Allocation Board'-- and I will'ask-you to 10 overlook what acronym that might turn'out to be --
f a
11'-
(Laugnter.]
- 12
-Mr.' Browning, as the responsible person for the High-f
'f
- 13 Level Waste program, will be making.the decisions on the 1
(~,
4 141 allocation ~of resources'between these various program elements.
.,. : 15 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
At least you didn't call it a-1 16' panel.
9 17 MR. BUNTING:
Yes, sir.
We were very careful about 18-that.
19 (Laughter.)
i 20 Once these decisions are made and they are 21 coordinated and the program element plans that result from the 22 decisions on the allocations are coordinated by the center 23-program manager, he will have the authority then.to send that 24 to the contracts officer to have it placed on contract.
,.m.
.(
25-Now, if you will, turn the page.
~
4-
-___m.__.___-
y J
4
- g. _,,
21
.c F1
.[ Slide.-]
/
,;%liX
.\\
2 What tho' captain meant to say.when he drew this chart j
i
- 3.:
- up was.that'once.those, boxes'are defined on the lefthand-side,.
g-4 Lif you would consider'those boxes to be limits on. cost, 5
schedule and performance.in those'particular areas, then the'.
6
. individual project managers.have authority'to give technical
]
7 direction to the contractor.
But.those' boxes,.if they need to
,l 8-be changed, then they'must be coordinated with the center i
a 9
programtmanager, the NRC center program manager, and those i
10
-changes must be defined, negotiated by the Division of 11 Contracts, and placed on contract, because it does form the
~
12
. basis'.for the award fee.
~
13
'MR. THOMPSON:
Part of-the. thing th'at we were looking I
14 for, because it is'a multiple office.as well as multiple
!j 15-divisions within my own office, it was important to have the 16 individuals who I am holding accountable and responsible for
- 17 the technical quality of the information to be able to give
' 18 directions and interface directly with the technical i
l' 19,
counterpart with the contractor, as well as, likewise, assure 20 that the accounting aspects are done properly through those i
21 individuals who have the responsibility for assuring that the
- 22 contract is managed right.
23 So, that is why the dual approach is a kind of a 24 matrix consideration, but it is not inconsistent with the way n
J.j 25 that I am holding my people accountable for the product.
^
'" ~
22 l
1 MR. BUNTING:
Okay.
On page 15, I have laid out two
- f. t
(,;'
2 items that we picked up from the RFP to give you an indication 3
of how we went about picking the FFRDC contractor.
4 (Slide.)
5 We did have two mandatory requirements.
6 Number one, he has to provide the facilities.
This 7
is a contractor-owned and contractor-operated operation.
8 And he clearly had to show the commitment to operate l
9 this as a not-for-profit concern.
10 The following bullets down there indicate to you our 11 concern that was in the RFP that primary emphasis is placed on l
l 12 his ability to form, establish, staff and sustain the center 13 based on the kind of people he has, the facility he has, and i
14 how that affects the continued technical interchange among his j
1 15 own staff as well as among the staff'of the Commission, his 16 ability to attract high level professional staff, and his 17 approach to ensure continuity of excellence devoted to our 18 needs free fro'm conflict of interest, and also his technical 19 excellence.
20 If you would, turn to the,next page.
21 j
[ Slide.]
22 I give you a brief introduction to Southwest Research i
1 23 Institute, who was the winning contractor.
As you can see, it 24 was chartered in Texas in 1947.
They have agreed to a long l
("%
25 term commitment, free of conflict of interest.
They have a
i 23 1
staff of over 2,100 people.
I 2
I believe I am correct in saying the revenues were 3
$140 million in the past year.
That is about correct?
4 MR. GOLAND:
$150 million.
5 MR. BUNTING:
Okay.
They do have state of the art 6
laboratories, office space, and they do have the administrative 7
support necessary, which I think you will see from the i
8 organizational chart which comes shortly, to support the center 9
without having to have the center build an entire support 10 organization for itself.
11 If you will, turn to page 17.
12 (Slide.]
13 This shows the organization of Southwest Research 14 Institute.
And you will see over on the righthand side a 15 separate identifiable entity called the Center for Nuclear 16 Waste Regulatory Analyses.
17 Now, it will report directly on its technical 18 findings and recommendations directly to the NRC.
The center 19 director has that cuthority delegated to him from the President 20 of SWRI.
21 I also have some photographs that we could show you, 22 if you will bring up thc first photograph.
23 (Slida.)
24 This is a diagram of the City of San Antonio.
It 25 shows you the location of the institute out in the western side e
m -
24 1
on essentially their beltway.
And it consists of about 760 l
- f. n
\\j 2
acres within the city limits, and they have all the buildings 3
and facilities there.
4 What I have given you are pictures of the center.
l 5
Could you bring up the next picture, please?
6
[ Slide.]
7 This is an aerial view of the institute complex, and 8
in the extreme lefthand portion you will see the. location of 9
where the center will be located.
10 If you will, bring the next picture up, please.
11
[ Slide.)
12 '
Somebody put the wrong picture in the viewgraph.
13 Forget that one.
You have the right one.
The one you have is
~
14 the picture of the center itself, and we will be occupying the I
15 third floor of that.
16 So, the facility is empty now, the third floor is, 17 and so they are beginning now to partition that out and bring 18 in the necessary equipment to support the staff.
19 Well, that completes what I wanted to tell you.
The 20 last chart is a summary.
21 (Slide.]
22 And that is that we have completed the competitive 23 procurement process, we have awarded the contract, and we will 1
begin implementation of this with a kick-off meeting on Monday,
)
24 l
25 the 16th,'and we will keep you apprised as to how we are doing.
i l
1 l
i
)
25 1
CHAIRMAN ZECH:
All right.
Does that conclude the "c
(L l briefing, Mr. Stello?
2 3
MR. STELLO:
Yes.
4 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
All right.
Questions from my fellow i
5 commissioners?
Mr. Roberts?
6 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
No.
1 7
CHAIRMAN ZECH:
Commissioner Bernthal.
8 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
I wanted to ask a little bit, 9
get a little information about the ph'se-out period here, a
10 because it goes on for four years, according to a comment you 11 made somewhere.
1 12 Are you satisfied that can be done in a fairly smooth 13 fashion?
Has that pretty well been worked out?
Is there a
('
14 roadmap for that already on how you phase out existing I
i 15 contracts and provide the interface between those people?
16 MR. THOMPSON:
Yes.
I think that was one of the key 17 factors that we looked at, because all of the contractors faced 18 this type of question.
And as we went back to look at the best 19 and final offers, one of the areas they focused on was how they' 20 would do that.
And each of the potential centers described 21 their program and they were evaluated and judged on that.
And 22 where we had questions, we went back and expressed additional 23 concerns if we had any about their program.
24 I think the ones that Southwest Research had had as j
(j'M) 25 good a program as any of the ones we had in having a realistic j
i
I i
26 1
expectation to be able to phase out, recognizing you may always
.()
2 have a need to call on an individual expert, and expertise is 3
something that comes up.
But their ability in the past to s
4 attract the quality type of individual for a long term i
5 commitment, we thought, was very, very good.
6 Joe, I don't know if you want to add anything else to 7
that.
8 MR. BUNTING:
Well, perhaps your comment was more 9
geared to the existing TA contractors and how we can turn loose 10 of those.
Is that it?
11 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
Yes.
I am really concerned 12 about transferring responsibilities and technical capability, 13 expertise.
I
("
i 14 MR. BROWNING:
We hope to have,most of that done by 4
15 year one.
16 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
You do?
I see.
j 17 MR. BROWNING.:
Most of that.
But the' longer term 18 thing or some of the people that have unique capabilities --
i 19 for example, the Bureau of Standards is one of our contractors.
i l
20 Now, it may very well be that we would want to retain them 21 because of some of the unique capabilities they have, longer 22 than that one year.
In fact, we do plan to use them.
j i
23 Sandia National Laboratory is one of our key
)
24 contractors in the area of performance assessment.
That will
(
25 probably be a longer term phased kind of arrangement.
I might i
l i
i
,]
27, i
i
~1-mention,fthey have been extremely cooperative in working this.
.;3 -
. L, L
.2-And the Department of Energy in that case is probably very 3;
eager to pick.up where we leave off, because the expertise that 4
-has been developed in our program areas is of great value to-5 them also.
6' COMMISSIONER BERNTHIL:
So,.I gather, then,.that'some 7
of your current contractors will continue in a different role, 8
~ that of evaluating as kind of independent peer evaluation, 9.
then, of the performance?
10 MR. THOMPSON:
No.
They will continue in conducting d
11 what I would call more reactive type responses..'They will 12 assist us in the need to evaluate the draft consultation site 13 characterization plans, which'we will be briefing you, I guess,
(-
14 November 3 on.
15 We will use them in that, role, while we will try to t
16 focus during this initial phase for the. center to come up to 17 speed in more the proactive activities, you know, in 18 establishing some of the methodologies that we will use to 19 evaluate the longer term programs.
20 In fact, some of the subcontractors are also our 21 contractors, so that there will be a fairly clear phase-in to i
22 the center's program for those activities, because the 23 contractor in fact is the same.
24 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
But these people, then, such
( )
25 as they may be, the other contractors, will report directly to
_mm-
_____m___----
28 1.
you'here?
l 2'
MR. THOMPSON:
Yes.
i 3
COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
They will always report
'4 directly to you?
5 MR.' THOMPSON:
They will continue to report under 6
direct contractual arrangement with us, if there are continuing 7
technical assistance or research contracts.
I 8
The phase-in, we will either have contracts with the 9
FFRDC or the existing contractual base.
The existing 10 contractual base will eventually be phased out.
We will not 11 have the people here start reporting to us through.the FFRDC.
12 That is not the intent.
13 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
Okay.
Early on in this 14 process, in the selection process, I recall that there'were 15 some questions and concerns raised about the flexibility 16 permitted under the RFP -- it goes way back to then, I guess --
l 17 that the agency initially issued, really rather broad 18 philosophical concerns.
And I am also aware of the response of 19 the staff and your reasons for the finding that these'were
'20 really not appropriate for the project.that we had here.
21 But I would like you to nevertheless comment on that 22 a little bit here in the meeting today.
I know this is 23 somewhat historical at this point, but I think you know what I 24 am talking about.
7,.
(.
25 There were concerns raised at one point that there 4
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.. -=
. _ - =
29
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'l
. wore:too many constrictions being placed.'on the creative effort g
1 Q.
J2.
.and. ability to allow one's-flexibility.to be adequate under the-
)
~
3-terms.of the contract.
4-
' I-don't want ' to be too obscure. here, but. I don't
'.5 really' care to bring.in any. specifics.
'I
'6 MR. BROWNING:. I think the. streamlined arrangement 7
that..Mr. Bunting ~ outlined' is. perfectly' adequate to accommodate 8
.anything~that we need to do.
That was-done in response to the-f
'l 9
SECY paper.
l 1
-10 So, the arrangement that was laid out allows us all 11 the flexibility to get the work done that we need.
l
. 12 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL: 'No, I a$1 not really talking.
about the organization.
I am talking about.b'asicitlly meeting 13.
14 the requirements and the goals of the Nuclear Waste Policy Act.
t 15-MR. BUNTING:
In other words, why did we have the 16 strict requirements we had in there?
- . 17 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
That is right.
And that
' 18 somehow -,
i 19,
MR. BUNTING:
And others found that not to be --
L>
20 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
Early' interested parties in 21 one or two cases fe'.t that our requirements, or at least the
. 22 constraints in our RFP were just much too restrictive.
4 23 How do you respond to that?
24 MR. BUNTING:
I will respond to it my way.
I spent a y.%,
Q
- 25 lot of time consulting with the Office of Federal Procurement L
o
30 p,
'l Policy'on. setting up this project..TheyLmade it-clear to me.
- y 7
- ?f 2
that the intent in setting this up was-that-the contractor, 3
whoever'we select, had to be well. perceived, in. fact,'and'you 4
can see that he is the center of excellence.
5 You can't have a situation where you were~ hiring' 6
someone to'go out and pick other experts'from other l
7 organizations.
That does not' constitute an.FFRDC in their 8
mind.
All we have-done is substitute one contracting office 9'
.for another.
10 So, we put the premium on having a center of L11 excellence where the contractor had control of that excellence.
12-We thought the best thing was where he had everything in his
-13 organization.
14 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
I agree.
15 MR. BUNTING:
And we limitied the extent to which we 16 depended on people outside of his organization, because the 17 advantages that we get and the new legal authority we get over 18 this contractor does not extend to people beyond the 19 contractor's organization, consultants, subcontractors, no 20 better than what we have today.
21 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
Well, I don't want to answer 22-the questions for you, but my general -- that is part of it --
23 my general sense also was that we felt that in the opinion of 24
-at least some other interested parties that there should be
)
25 sort of a fresh look on the part of the contractor on behalf of 1
l l
~31 1
Ethis ag'ency:at'the requirements.under the NWPA or perhaps 7"x
-t A;,e 2
alternative paths'to meeting those requirements under the NWPA,
~3 that those}were not spelled out with enough flexibility.
4 And I gather our finding was that we.didn't.want them 5-to be and that, in fact, we'had an must have.a fairly fixed
- 6 view of the agency's mission here.
'7 MR. BUNTING:
Oh, I know exactly what you are talking 8
about.
Excuse me.
9 MR. THOMPSON:
Maybe you could answer the question, 1 10 then.
11 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
I think it is rather 12 important to put this on the record.
That is why I am asking.
i(.-
13 MR..STEL10:
I think, if I get the thrust of the 14 question, why limit it to just the issue of high level waste,.
15 why not broaden it to other issues.
16 COMMISSIONER BERNTRAL:
No.
17 MR. BUNTING:
The answer to the question is that, as,
18 opposed to some FFRDCs which are created to take a broad look 19 at how best to do something, this FFRDC is being brought into being to help us implement directions we have from Congress.
20 q
21 The Congress has already chosen geologic disposal, 22 and the Commission has already been assigned the responsibility 23 to regulate that, k
24 So, our RFP had the contractor start with that basis.
l
)
25 We didn't feel that we were free to go back an'd start from i
1 1
I
=
32' 1
1, 1
ground'zero.
That was the reason.
..g.
2 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
Okay.
Maybe enough said.now.
3 Did someone else have a --
4 MR. THOMPSON:
No, but I think that is what it is.
I 5
mean, we weren't asking the contractor to completely take a de 6'
novo review of saying, hey, we'are going to tell you what you i
7:
ought-to have been going over the past five years or what you 8
ought to be doing.in the next ten years.
What we are asking.
.9 and what we do perhaps have some flexibility in is looking.at 10 the program that we have and identifying if there were programs 11-that.should be strengthened, reduced, refocused.
But it is not 12*
a total unbounded.look in what I would. call the. system of.the I
13 management activities.
14 As Joe was talking about earlier, we do see a clear
'15
' advantage of having the calsubj.lity of the management of this 16 organization to look at all those activities and how they are.
17 integrated, in addition to what we do.
18 I, feel personally responsible for the program that we 19 have in the Ifigh Level. Waste Program.
That is, I think they 20 are resourced to do that.
They are not responsible.
I am 21 responsible for that activity.
22 We have a program in place.
You know, I work through Vic to make sure that he is on board with our activities, and 23.
j 24 to the extent that they have ways to ' improve that, I intend to
)
25 utilize that advice, input, and make recommendations where we 1
l
1.
33 1-
-need programmatic changes.
But I really want to focus on
/A
\\,;,, '
2-proactive activities, some of the things that we have already 3
. identified that we need to'do, to get those in place.
4 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:.Two more short ones,.I hope.
5 As you know, there has.been question recently about
)
6 how you allocate your' resources in NMSS'in the High Level Waste p
7 Program, and we thought for.a while we could take some: bodies le j
.ou't and put them on other programs or in other areas, and now 8
9' it appears that maybe we.can't, or at'least as of yesterday or
)
i 10
.the day before.
I am not sure what happened today.
)
i 11.
lThe idea, as I understand it now, once this contract
]
i 12 is let, the~ idea is that once again this will. free up some of i
(
13-your people to move into other areas.
l l.{
i
'14 Are you confident about that?
In other words,'I j
15 wonder about.the transition period and the staff requirements.
16~
that may be placed on.us just coordinating the transition to
]
.)
17 the Southwest.Research Institute.
{
1 18 MR. THOMPSON:. That certainly is, I think, the key 19 challenge, to be able to get the contractor up to speed on 20 understanding the issues that we are facing at the same time we 21-may be receiving a significant number of documents from DOE for
-22 us to do our reviews on, and those reviews being requested in a
)
1 23 fairly short period of time.
I 24 That is why we say in the briefing chart that we are 25 looking at initially a phase-in program where we may rely on
34 1
the existing contractors to give us much of that near term
-Q
-(,N 2
support that we would need.
3
.But in the long term, I think this would give us much 4
more flexibility, because we will have people who may not only 5
be doing the research activities but, you know, being under the 6
control of the center, one of the things we evaluated was their q
7 management capab'ility to redirect resources to address today's 8
problem as it may come up, in the meantime still having the 9
understanding and continuity of the longer term research 10 activities.
11 I do agree with you, though, commissioner, it is the 12 near term, the phase-in program that is the most challenging, 13 and that is why we relied heavily on management technique 14 capability both from my staff and the contractor and their 15 ability to manage this phase-in portion was an important part 16 of our selection process.
17 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
How many of your people do 18 you expect to be able to move out of this program, let's say, 19 at the end of the first yaar of the contract?
20 MR. THOMPSON:
I have not made a specific judgment on 21 that.
22 COMMISSIONER BERNTRAL:
You have not.
23 MR. THOMPSON:
Really, what we have looked at is what 24 I need to do this year to do those site characterization plan
- 7$
s_/
25 reviews, and we put ten FTEs back into the program in order to
g.:
35 1-
- maintain'the capability to'do three simultaneous, parallel-2
. reviews'of the site' characterization' plans.
3=
Whether or not DOE'is still'able to deliver, I don't
+
4.
hava a'real solid feel on that, as'to whether or not.they 5
deliver on time.
6' I think we have identified some cf the programmatic 7
impact it has on other areas.
You know, I think.that the 8
balance ia there.. We are going ~to put our resources on those-19 things f* hat are most important from public health and safety 10 issues ir,those.other areas.
]
11 I would wish, and I am sure you wish, I had more 12 resources to be.able to do both likewise.
You know, it really 13 caught.us -- DOE's action caught us at a fairly critical time
.('p
'14 in these programmatic shifts.
15 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
A last question.
The last 16 time I looked, San Antonio was not'on the " Red Lin'" and it is e
17 not a place that you exactly hop on the subway.to get to --
,i 18 thank God, many people would say.
19 (Laughter.]
20-Nevertheless, it raises the question of a presence 21 here.
We, of course, have a presence in the form of Region IV
'22 in Dallas, but I think it is fair to say that region is 23 adequately burdened already.
Vic thinks it is not adequately i
24 burdened maybe, but --
^ lf. 'h (1,'
25 MR. STELLO:
No, no.
I was shaking my head, we don't i
V
~
36 1
intend to use them for that purpose.
i
((,)
2 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
I-didn't think'so.
Okay.
1 i
L 3
So, they are out of the picture.
(
i 4
So, in effect, we have no presence there of l
5 significance.
Do they have a presence here of significance to j
6 assure the kind of communication you are going to need?
Or l
i 7
will there be such a presence established?
l 8
MR. BUNTING:
Yes.
They have an office here now.
I 9
think it is principally for their DOD work.
But this proposal 10 says that they will establish an office here, a presence here 11 in Washington.
It will be staffed at the level of seven to ten 12 people.
13 I understand it will not be co-located with the one k.
14 they have.
It will start there, but --
15 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
That sounds like a good 16 policy.
17 KR. THOMPSON:
In fact, I believe one of the things I 18 have talked about with John Montgomery, as we were looking at 19 the potential of locating in a second building, is there may be 20 some opportunities for us to be able to have their " Washington 21 office" very close.to our own staff.
22 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
Thank you.
I have nothing b
23 further.
j 1
24 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
Commissioner Rogers.
)
25 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
I am coming into this very 4
4 e
__--____._--.n._--
9 c.;..
37 1."
-late, of-course, but ILam'a little struck by'the absence-of'
.f fl%
A
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'2 anything that suggests any kind of. human factors work in the 3
research activities of the center.
And.I can't tell you what'I q
'4.
think_ought to be there, but'it strikes me as a little peculiarL 5
-that it looks as if it is purely a hard science activity.
6 I am sure that a good deal of what is going to befof 1
-7 concern to us.all -- how that translates-into particular 8-regulations, I don't know -- but it is going to involve the 9
interface between the technology and the social system in which'
}
10 it is embedded.
11 I wonder if you could.just tell me a little bit about 12 your thoughts on that, why that isn't in 'the center or, if it
.s 13 in fact could be in the center under the catchall' box there of i
O.4 transportation, special analytical evaluations and
{
15 environmental impacts?
16 MR. THOMPSON:
Commissioner, let me address that 17-because I guess I kind of came in late in the issue also, and
- 18 the evaluation criteria had been established when I got there.
19 ',
I, obviously, coming from the Division of Human 20 Factor Safety at one time in NRR, was acutely aware of that.
21 In fact, I intend to add and have been recruiting human factors 22 expertise for the NMSS division, of which we have none at this 23 time.
24 The area I see the immediate need for human factors
~( )
25 capability deals with the MRS.
That is where, you know, people
'i l
w
'38 1
are going to be operating procedures.
In fact, that will' 7,,
(; )
2 probably be one of'the-first places where we actually review 3'
and possibly license a facility.
4 That expertise may well be on my own-staff, rather 5'
than-in the center, although I think we do'have the capability, 6
when we identify the long term need, to include that capability
- .7 within that' area of performance.
That is,-I don't believe they 8
are prohibited from getting a needed expertise.
But I don't 9
think we have tried to spell it all out.
. 10
.If we identify-a need for that human factors -- and.
11 there.is a need-for human factors capability -- we will ensure-12 that is incorporated, most likely in that area'would be the.
13 primary one, the man / machine interface, you know, as they
,, (;
1 14-operate.the facilities, in addition to the functional 15 allocation of what c.an be done by ma' chins.
4 16 DOE is doing 1some of that work now, as to what they
- 17 can actually do by machine out in Idaho.
18 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
That is all I have.
Thank you.
19 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
I understand there are five program 20 elements that relate to high level waste that are in the
' 21 contract for the operation of the center.
22 My question really is:
What would-be the 23 difficulties, or would it be possible to change the contract,
(
24 for example, if we did want to include low level wasta 25 activities?
39 11
.MR. BUNTING - According to the OMB policy, it would f%-
'(;
2 be necessary-just about to go back to start again.. You would t
3 have to make the determination that you have the special needs 4
that could not be handled through the normal procurement, and 5
you would have to put three notices in the r deral. Register e
6 over a 90 day period for comment, just as'we started this one.
7 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
I see.
8 MR. BUNTING:
You would be expanding the scope of l
l 9
this-center.-
1 10 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
I see.
So, really, you are saying l
11 you would essentially have to start over again.
12 MR. THOMP' SON:
But my anticipation would be that we 13 really would want to focus this center initially on the.high
' ~
14 level waste activities, the Nuclear Waste Policy Act responsea.-
l 15 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
No question about it.
I think we all q want to do that.
But I was just asking you, what is the flexibility involved, and I presume -- it sounds like there is, 17 18 not very much.
19 MR. THOMPSON:
As I would see it, it may be well 20 toward the second -- you know, the first renewal time frame, as 21 we get up to speed, the center staffed, I think we would have a 22 good sense at that time as to whether or not it would make
.23 sense from a management point of view to be able to expand it 24 to include the low level waste.
7%
(i.;)
25 It has been something we have discu'ssed.
4
w
'40-11.'
. CHAIRMAN ZECH:'- Okay, fine.
The other question I
.2 have, and you. mentioned it earlier, is the quality of personnel-3 Lin the' organization, the Southwest Research Institute..
4 Quality of personnel.is'so important to us, as well l
5 as to'them.
Are there any special incentives or programs that i
6 you are aware of that they have to continue the receipt of high 7'
quality personnel?
8 MR. THOMPSON:
That was one of the issues we 9
evaluated.
Joe, you'might want.to address that in some detail.
10' But it is a key' element that.we did look at.
11 MR. BUNTING:- One of the key elements in our RFP was-12' motivation'.
'As I mentioned earlier, they do have programs'in.
13
' (,
. place now for independent research and development.
14 Wo. wanted to try and focus some kind of program on 15 motivating peqi.le to want to work for this center,.as just 16 opposed to the contractor.
17 So, we have negotiated with the contractor an award 18 fee, which,is zero based and I think sliding scale up to a 19' certain percent -- I think it is eight --and I think we have 20 also negotiated with them a sliding scale to have a portion' of 21 that award fee set aside as a motivational tool for independent l
l 22-research and development on competition by people from the i
23 center staff.
24 So, we are hoping that woul'd be helpful in motivating
. p) l, 25 them to attract and retain high quality staff and keep them l
L
41 1
interested in'the research.
- ?
- 2 MR. BROWNING:
That is limited to work associated 3
with the nuclear waste, the high level waste areas.
4-
.MR. BUNTING:
It has to be associated with the 5
charter of the center.
J 6
CHAIRMAN ZECH:
Fine.
Well, the quality. people are 1
-7 important tolany operation or any organization, as we all know.
i
-l 8
Sd, in this very important field, I hope that. staff will be 9
mindful of' oversight in that' area to'make sure'that the quality i
10
'does stay up.
i 11
' COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
Mr. Chairman.
12 CHAIRMAN ZECH:
Yes.
l 13 COMMISSIONER ROGERS:
On that. point a little bit,-I j
,-(
14 am just a little. concerned about how much the people who work 15 in the center are totally captive by these activities.-
In
.I 16 other words, there is the real problem of a conflict of 1
17 interest, so they couldn't be working on a DOD funded project
-18 or something else.
I 19 And yet I find it difficult to think of anything else 20 that they could work on, except the NRC program, without the 1
21 danger of a conflict of interest developing.
j 22 And then I have a little trouble with respect to the diversity of their scientific activities, keeping them prime, 23 24 in prime condition.
~
.,[},()
25 I think that is something that has to be thought I
l
.l
'42' A
It' sounds.to me like there.has been some worry about l'
'about.
M,
25 that kind of' thing.in setting.this up.
'3.
But with the' narrow focus of the NRC's interest in
'4
-meeting itsfregulatory obligations, the professionals in that 5
center'have to be aware of what is happening outside of'the.
6 narrowest' scientific and technical interpretation of.what those 7
needs.are.
And'the question ist Who.is going to support that?
If'they are working day in and day out on a specific 8
19 project of NRC:that is very targeted, I am a little concerned 10
.about their. maintaining their breadth of technical expertise.
11 that allows them'to really bring to.the needs of the'NRC that
- 12'
-breadth'which is characteristic of tho' person who-really-is,on 13-top of his or her field.
(;
^'
14 So, there is a problem that has to be addressed in 15 that area, and I-am sure that it has been of some interest to 16' you in working this out.
17 But I simply want to repeat that that'should be 18 thought of in the activities of the' center, because NRC, in 19
' insisting that it have this rhole control to avoid the conflict of interest, which is key-here towards the justification of J 21 this entire project, mu'st also see to it that those folks.who 22 are our creatures have the breadth of experience and 23 opportunity and exposure that comes from interaction with the 24
'whole field in which they are working, and that there has to be
)
25' real attention paid to that in terms of bringing in seminar
_. - -. _ _ _. - _. ~ _ _.
.s-43
...~
~1?
speakers and things.like that from.outside, because they are.
(!
'(l?V 2
not going to be working on -- they may'not be working on some.
,j l
.3 things which-are outside the immediate' interest'of NRC and 4
would ordinarily be funded by one of the competing agencies, 5
such.as DOE or an industrial' contractor.
6 So, I hope that real thought wil-1 be given to-7.
maintaining -- I am sure you.are going to start out with' people 8
of high intellectual. quality.and currency -- but that has to be.
-9 maintained during the course of this, and that is a real' danger 10 that I would see down the road, say ten years, for someone who 11 has been exclusively tied to'this center, that.we provide the 12
- encouragement to maintain their intellectual credentials.
13 MR. BUNTING:
We are very much aware of that, and' 14-that is one of the things we will be working with the center to 15 do.
16-I do want to remind you, though, that Southwest does 17 have a lot of projects, that1when we say dedicated to NRC's 18 needs and conflict of interest, they can work on other thin ~gs 19.
for other people, just not the Department of. Energy or other 20 States and tribes who may be potential parties.to the licensing 21 hearing.
22-So, there are other opportunities at Southwest for 23 them to become involved in.
1 24 COMMISSIONER BERNTHAL:
Commissioner Rogers raises a l
25 key point, though, and in fact that was part and parcel of.the 1
l
. c 44
'l :
issue that led some of the early contenders to drop out, I y'
jg, 2
think just for that reason,-sort of how do you keep a stable of
'3
' thoroughbreds if you never let them run in the stakes 1 kind of 4
thing.
1 5
And I.think that is the issue that Commissioner.
l 6
Rogers is addressing, and in fact that I was alerted to in 7
conn'ection with at least'one or two early cases, that you.just 8
won't be able to attract and keep the very best people if you 9
define the mised m so narrowly.
j 10 There is a conflict in objectives there, if'you have l
11 a project going over 20 or 30 years, as this one is likely to 12 do.
It is a good point.
I 13-CHAIRMAN ZECH:
Are thero any other comments?
i
' k.
1 14 (No response.]
'l 15 Well, let me thank the staff on behalf of the Commission for a very informative and timely briefing on,the 16 L
17 establishment of the Federally Funded Research and Development 18 Center.
19 The center, as we all would recognize, will'certainly 20 play a very important role in our review and deliberations of 21 the technical issues as we move forward with the licensing of a a
22' national high level' waste depository.
I 23 I think the staff has done an excellent job.
I 24 commend you, Mr. Thompson, on your teamwork.
It is certainly i
.25 apparent to me that you have coordinated very well with your
_ ___ _1.
J
45 l
l-colleagues.
i
(~ %
y, 2
And I think it is important for the future that you 3
continue and build a very fine relationship with the center, 4
with the Southwest Research Institute, and to maks a 5
professional and competent relationship which will bear fruit 6
in many of the very important areas that we are about to be 7
involved in as regards a high level waste depository.
8 I would like to emphasize one more time the emphasis 9
you have heard from a number of us on the quality people and 10 what you.can do to make sure that they do retain their currency 11 and professional competence.
12 When we rely on people like that, we must have the 13 confidence that they really are the best and'have'the expertise b'
14 necessary in order for us to make the best judgments'we can.
15 I think that your review of the contract, as we
)
16 pointed out, monthly, yearly and so forth is also going to be 17 very important, not only the contract but the performance.
And-1 18 I am sure_the Commission will be interested in being kept 19 abreast of especially the beginning phase ard how you are 20 going.
21 So, I would ask that you give us some kind of a 22 report here after you have things underway, after the first few 23 months perhaps, a written report, and then perhaps at some time 24 after that, maybe after the first aix months or so, we would
()25 like to hear from you in another meeting to see how it is I
C
46 ll going.
/71;.
g 2
It is a very important project, a'very important 3
program, and I commend the staff for an excellent handling of 4
such a program of the magnitude, importance that it certainly i
5 could and should be.
6 So, with that, unless there are any other comments 7
from my fellow commissioners, we will stand adjourned.
Thank 8
you very much.-
9-
.[Whereupon, at'3:02 p.m., the meeting was adjourned.]
'10 11 12
(.~
13 1
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14 15 16
]
1 17 18 19 4
20 21
-l 22 23 24
- 25
__________._m____.-____
I I
1 i
,k $
2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE I A,,
3 l
4 This is to certify that the attached events of a 5
meeting of the U.S. Nuclear-Regulatory Commission entitled:
6 7
TITLE OF MEETING: Briefing on the Federally Funded Research and Development Center (FFRDC)
{
8 PLACE OF MEETING:
Washington, D.C.
I 1
9 DATE OF MEETING: Wednesday, October 21, 1987 10 t-11 were held as herein appears,.and that this is the original 1
12 transcript thereof for the file of the Commission taken (I
13 stenographically by me, thereaftae reduced to typewriting by i '
14 me or under the dire;cion of the court reporting company, and.
l 15 that the transcript is a true and accurate record of the 16 foregoing events, i
17 18 Ah LW E4-44 : -dL2.2'$ b----
Ma'rilynn Nations 19 20 21 22 Ann Riley & Associates, Ltd.
23 24 s
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