ML20207T265
| ML20207T265 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Issue date: | 11/16/1981 |
| From: | NRC COMMISSION (OCM) |
| To: | |
| Shared Package | |
| ML20207T240 | List: |
| References | |
| FOIA-87-45, REF-10CFR9.7 NUDOCS 8703230371 | |
| Download: ML20207T265 (54) | |
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In t as Mat: tar of:
DISCUSSION OF CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY CLOSED MEETING - EXEMPTIONS 5, 9 & 10 i
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UNITED STATES OF A% ERICA 2
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 3
4 DISCUSSION OF CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY 5
6 CLOSED MEETING - EXEMPTIONS 5, 9E 10 7
8 Nuclear Regulatory Commission Room 1130 8
.717 H Street, N.
W.
Wachington, D. C.
11 Nonday, November 16, 1981 12 The Commission met in closed session, pursuant to 13 notice, at 10:35 a.m.
l 14 BEFORE:
NUNZIO PALLADINO, Chairman of the Commission 16 VICTOR GILINSKY, Commissioner PETER BRADFORD, Commissioner 17 JOHN AHEARNE, Commissioner IHOMAS ROBERTS, Commissioner 18 STAFF PRESENTS 20 S. CHILK L. BICKWIT 21 F. REMICK R.
VOLLMER
' 22 H.
DENTON W.
DIRCKS 23 C. KAMMERER N. HALLER 24 i
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I ALDERSON REPORTIN3 COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
The meeting vill please to I
3 order.
4 The subject of today's meeting is a discussion of 5 Congressional testimony to be presented to the Udall 6 Committee.
7 We have a letter from Congressman Udall indicating 8 tha ta "There is a widespread belief among Members of 9 Congress that quality assurance problems such as those 10 suggested by Quadrex a t South Texas, as well as those 11 revealed at Diablo Canyon, simply do not exist.
12 "It is important, therefore, that the Commission 13 come forth with a statement presentings (A) the reasons
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14 that defects of these kinds remained so long undetected; and 15 ( B ) an explanation of what has been done to uncover any such 16 situa tions a t other plan ts.
17 "Please be prepared to discuss the South Texas 18 matter and the information requested in the foregoing 19 paragraph at the Subcommittee's November 19th hearing on 20 quality assurance."
21 We have had draf ts circulated of the proposed 22 testimony and I thought we might ask the staff to highlight 23 the main features of the testimony and any suggested changes 24 tha t they might have and then open it for Commission 25 questions.
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Would you actually propose 2 to deliver this testimony or hand it in and say something 3 else, or what?
4 ER. DENTON:
There are three or more parts to it.
5 There is a statement for the Chairman.
Then I would propose 6 to summarize the first part of my prepared testimony and 7 then a ttached to tha t ---
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
A good start.
9 (Laughter.)
10 MR. DENION:
--- which I wouldn't read, I would 11 then be prepared to answer, along with the Regional 12 Administrators the parts about the specific plants.
13 We could move it up.
Originally when we were 4
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14 w riting it we were coing to have more than one person that 15 would get it.
So we sort of divied it up but we could put 161t back together again.
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Are the Regional 18 Administrators now Regional Administrators?
19 MR. DIRCKS:
We will have two there.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa No, I mean are they nov 21 Regional Administrators?
)
22 MR. DISCKSs Regional Administrators, ri gh t.
John 23 Collins will be there and Jim Keppler will be there.
We 24 thought sort of a brief sta tement because Udall always 25 hurries you through the thing anyway because they want to ALDERSCN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. 0 C. 20024 (202) 555 2345
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1 get right away into the questions that they have ready to 2 launch at you.
3 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Why, since this addresses 4 to some extent enforcement policy or inspection policy, why 5 isn't DeYoung 8
MR, DIPCKSs DeYoung vill be there, but I think 7 wha t we wanted to do was just give an overview.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs At least the way it read 9 f roa here I could get the impression that NRR is responsible 10 for inspection policy.
11 MR. DIRCKS:
No.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs That is the way the 13 testimony comes across.
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14 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs I have to say my own 15 f eeling is that this ought to be handled by ICE.
We talked 161 bout it a little bit.
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I agree with that.
18 MR. DIRCKSs Well, you are looking for somebody to
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19 go up there and read some testimony.
Essentially that is 20 it.
Rut I don't see picking one and saying he is the i
21 official responsible ---
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22 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs Obviously the issue is do 23 we monitor, inspect and review the licencees well enough to 24 make sure they have competent quality assurance programs.
25 The charge is no, and there is a reasonable amount of ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 t
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1 evidence saying that they don't at least in some cases.
I 2 agree with Vic that that does seem to be an ICE issue.
3 MR. DIRCKS:
It could be, but I think if you take 4 it from the point of view of requirements, are the 5 requirements sound, that is one issue.
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Well, NER is responsible 7 for the requirements, but I don't think questions have been 8 raised except on the part of licensees about the adequacy of 9 the requirements.
Questions have been raised about the way 10 it actually applied and was checked up on.
So unless we are 11 coming up snd saying that we want to tune A ppendix B or make 12 some changes or whatever, or f eel a need to defend the 13 regulations, in which case it would be an NPR kind of
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14 responsibility, it seems to me that since this arises from 15 specific problems and specific places, that it really has to 16 do with the field.
17 MR. DENTON:
I didn't volunteer ---
18 (Laughter.)
19 MR. DIRCKS:
That was the other point I was going 20 to make that it is difficult to find anyone ---
21 (Laughter.)
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY That is one way to look at 23 1t.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I didn't think this was 25 something you were asking for volunteers for.
ALDERSoN REPoRfiNG COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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1 (Lauchter.)
2 MR. DIRCKS:
Well, in this case you are asking for I
3 someone to go up there and take the f ull brunt of the 4 Commission 's program.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But Vic is correct, and I 6 have to say when I read Harold's testimony that there was a 7 great deal about the general approach that we take and our 8 general set of requirements.
I don't think those are going
'9 to be the issues.
10 MR. DIRCKSs I would like to keep it to that issue 11 and then go into the details when the OA comes up.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s I had the came feeling.
13 There is too much general information and not enough on i
14 Disblo Canyon and South Texas.
15 MR. DENTON:
We had testimony I think prepared at 16 one time by Keppler and John Collins that went into more 17 detail on these.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s And I though t we were going 19 to follow that until I read this over the weekend.
20 Inciden tally, the version that I read and the version that 21 Norm Haller read, at least so far as my testimony is 22 concerned, are dif f erent.
23
( Laughter. )
24 MR. DENION:
I guess we should have put a date on 25 them.
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MR. DIRCKS I wanted the latest one that enne 2 down Friday.
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CHAIRMAN PALLADINO Commissioner Gilinsky seems 4 to have ---
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Which one do I have?
6 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
You seem to have the one that 7 Nora reviewed.
8 MR. DENTON:
Maybe we ought to talk about the 9 subject for a moment.
10 CHAIRMAN P'A LL A DIN 0 s Yes, let's go to the subject.
11
!B. DENTON:
I guess when I looked into it a bit, 12 and I feel more than a little bit uncomfortable about the e
13 details of South Texas and Marble Hill because I wasn't 14 directly involved in a lot of that activity at the time.
So 15 that is why I think in any event you will need someone who 161s f amiliar with the details of those investigations and 17 res ults.
18 It does appear as though f rom the Commission 's 19 Appendix rules in OA and the adoption in '74 by the ASME 20 Code Committee of Standards and the stsndard review plan and 21 reg. guides, that there is a big base for QA requirements.
22 COMMISSIO!!ER AHEA RNE:
But did they go into effect 23 on those plants?
As we find on Diablo Canyon one of the 241ssues is that they did not actually go into effect until 25 most of the work or s large amount of the work had already ALDERSON REPORT!NG COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) $$4 2345
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8 1been done.
In f act, if it hadn 't been for the Hosgri 2 reanalysis they wouldn 't have really applied at all to 3 Diablo.
4 BR. DENTON:
I think there was a decision by 5 Muntsing back at that time in '74, wasn't there, Dick, to 6 not backfit certain of the 04 requirements.
Maybe you can 7 remember those details, but the full-blown requirements were 8 laid on cps only af ter some date.
The major failings appear 9 to be in the implementation of those programs.
10 COM9ISSIONER AHEAPNES Another part of the problem 11 I had in reading your testimony is that you were talking 12 about here is what the requirements are now, but the 13 problems that clearly obviously have surfaced are in plants 14 that are well underway in construction.
So in many cases 15 the systems that were being placed on them may not have been 16 and in f act probably were not the full system that you are 17 now describing.
18 The issue that 'you are going to be up there 19 testifying on is not really so much in the future.
It is 20 what is happening right now or what has recently happened.
21 MR. VOLLMERs The requirements, particularly to 22 the extent that they are addressed in the testimony, were 23 requirements for Diablo Canyon.
~he only thing that is f
24 dif ferent now is there are a number of ANSI standards 25 introduced by regulatory guides to give more details for ALCERSON REPoRnNo COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., W ASHINGToN, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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1 filling out the skeleton, if you will.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE4 They didn't even have to 3 have a quality assurance program for their subcontractors 4 until 1976.
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
What year?
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
'76.
7 NR. VOLLMER:
They should have.
It was a 8 requirement of Appendix B that they do that, that they do 9 have QA programs, either that the contractor has one and to PGCE audits it or, if they don't have one, the make-up of 11 the contractor is such that the contractor himself does not 12 need one and PGCE has to perform it themselves.
So the 4
13 requirements were there in the early '70 time frame.
It is
.c 14 just that it wasn't implemented.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa I must say it would have 16 been helpful if there had been just a little brief 17 valk-through of one applica tion, even if just to a single 18 weld, because this testimony I found to be at a level of 19 generality which, unless you can constantly translate, you 20 know, if you have some internal compiler that puts this into 21 machine lang uage, that it is meaningless.
22 MR. DENTON4 One of the things that I tried to 23 avoid was that we would fix these problems through more NRC 24 new inspection ef fort and so forth.
The amount of effort 25 that we put into this is sort of minimal.
We have three ALCERSCN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WA$HIPv0 TON,0 C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 4
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10 1 people in Dick 's division who review all OL applications and 2 I think we have put in about one man-year effort during 3 inspection.
So you really rely on the licensee to carry out 4 the program that he commits to.
5 CHAIBHAN PALLADINO:
Well, how about the field 6 offices?
7 MR. DENTONa Well, I think it is only about one 8 asn-year per plant per year.
You have got two or three 9 thousand people out there working and the inspector is 10 spread over many activities.
So if the utility f ails to 11 implement forcefully all the requirements that he is 12 committed to, it is very ha rd f or this one person to 13 fin d ---
14 COMNISSIONER GILINSKYa But there has got to be 15 some answer to how it is we impose this discipline if it 161sn 't readily accep ted.
17 MR. DENTONa Well, the textbook answer is that 18 they make the commitments at the CP stage to do all the to things in reg. guides and regula tions.
Then the inspector 20 audits it periodically to see that they are doing it.
But i
211t is obvious f rom the experience here that there are a l
22 handf ul of cases at least where it is not being implemented 23 very ef f ectively.
24 Now, how you could remedy tha t, you could get a 25 third party to reverify it, or you could ---
l ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S W., WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa One of the things that the 2 field people are doing is putting the plants in effect on a 3 remedial regime where you just have to check a lot more k
l 4 caref ully.
This is both plants in operation and plants 5 under construction where you impose an even heavier burden 6 of checking to force attention to those details.
7 MR. DENTON:
I think we have spread ourselves Slightly to skim across the surface.
We look for methodology gand existence of programs and seldom does the inspector have 10 time to really go down and answer a specific question about 11looking at a drawing and looking at the calculations.
12 I have wondered if it would be more effective to 13 occasionally pick a system and look it from A to Z, the way 14 the system was designed, all the parameters, the way it was 15 built and implemented and do it that way.
But when you have 16 a vast a rea to cover, I think our inspectors tend to look 17 a t, as you say, a generality level to see if there is a 18 program.
tg COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Well, when I was talking m about the generality I wasn 't ref erring to what out 21 inspectors do.
I was referring to the testimony which I 22 found to be at a level of generality that was hard to 23 understand unless you had some experience with the details 24 and then fou could sort of translate the general terms into 25 tangible terms.
You raise a whole other question which is ALCCRSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) $$4 2345
i 12 1what is our response to the problem.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s I could see questions being 3 asked like, well, why do we have more people on that if it 41s an impo.rtant aspect of our business.
I could just see 5 then saying you mean only one man-year out of 3,000 6 aan-years?
7 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Well, it is a little more 8 than one man-year in the sense that you have got a resident 9 inspector and then you have inspection from the region.
10 MR. DENTON:
I asked one of the Regional 11 Administrators what the answer would be to that question and 12 he gave me one man-year per year tha t goes into inspecting 13 the CA program.
y 14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Per plant?
15 MR. DENTON:
Per plant.
16 MR. DIRCKSs For the QA program, right.
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Well, but when you are 181nspecting the plan t, I don't know that you can separate 19 inspecting the QA program from inspecting the plant.
Every 20 time you have an incident of one kind or another it involves 211n one way or another a breakdown of the system.
So I would 22 regard in some sense all of our inspection or almost all of 23 our inspection is in ef fect an inspection of this ---
24 COMMISSIONER BR ADFORD:
But that is only true if 25 every time is a breakdown in the system somebody then puts ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE, S W, WASHINGfoN, O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
13 1 man-hours into following it back into the OA.
Certainly 2 what you say is true, that every time something goes wrong 31t raises a QA question.
But I think what Harold is saying 4 is that that aspect doesn't necessarily get pursued in all 5 situations or even in many.
Am I wron; about that?
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs Is there anybody from IEE 7 here?
8 (No response.)
9 MR. DIRCKS They will be here this afternoon.
10 They are out inspecting QA programs.
11 (Laughter.)
12 MR. PENTONs Let 's talk for a moment about 13 possible cures just to get some thoughts ---
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14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Well, if we could stick 15 with this for a minute.
Is NBR's involvement in the OA 16 program over at the time that they review the CP7 17 MR. DENION:
Historically our involvement is in 18 d efinin g requirements and we define them for the 19 construction phase when we issue the C7 and then we are 20 essentially out of it until the OL phase.
Our OL reviews 21 have been limited to getting commitments for CA during 22 o pera tions.
23 00MMISSIONER AHEARNE But at f ar as the Q A during 24 the construction phase, 4RR's total involvement is at the 25 time of the filing of the construction permit?
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MR. DENTON4 That is right, unless some problems 2 like honeycombing or structural problems are found and we i
3 are asked by ICE to assist them in the technical 4 resolution.
But we don't participate then during that 5 construction phase unless asked.
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
What do you actually look 7 at at that point?
Is it a matter of looking at organization 8 charts?
Do you actually look at procedures, and would they 9 have procedures at that point, detailed procedures?
10 MR. DENTONs let me ask Dick to cover it since he 111s here.
12 MR. VOLLMER:
At the predocketing stage when we 13 visit and see that they have some sort of a program 14 implemen ted we do take a look at procedures on a rather 15 broad sense.
But basically when we review the application 16 ve review it to specific program commitments.
17 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Now the procedures would 18 presumably f ollow various code requi rem en ts ?
i 19 ER. VOLLMER:
Well, the QA program is, you know, a 20 half-in h document, if you will, the type of thing that NRR 21 reviews, and we look f or commitments to all the provisions 22 of Appendix B, the regulatory guides.
We look very hard at 23 their organization to see if it has an adequa te independence 241n reporting level.
25
'4 hat is genersted then in terms of procedures are I
ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRolNIA AVE., S.W., W ASHINGToN. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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15 1many book shelves of material which give construction 2 procedures, design procedures and so on to implement all 3 these.
Those things are not reviewed at NRR.
They are 4 sample reviewed by ICE.
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY1 Are those generated',on 6 every construction project?
I would expect they would r
7 be -- (Simultaneous Conversations - Inaudible).
8 MR. VOLLMER:
Well, Bechtel has a standard set,
'9 but, for ex' ample, HPCL, not having had, it is my 10 recollection, nuclear business bef ore South
- Texas, would 11 probably have to generate a significant amount of new 12 procedural work for themselves.
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13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE4 So, for example,-thsn ND[
.c 14 would have approved HPCL's basic procedures arid also ther 15 would have signed of f and said that the HPCL CA syctem had 16 suf ficient independence and access to management?
17 MR. VOLLMER:
That is correct.
COMMISSIONER AHEARNbs As I recall, one of the 18 19 NRC's findings on the HPCL CA system was that it did not 20 have suf ficient independentit and did not ha ve suf ficient 21 across to managemen t.
I 2:
MR. VOLLMER:
There are iwo things.
One when you I
23 ceview an appliestion they say that he is going to report'to 24 the chairman of the board fr-~ something like that.
That is 25 all well and good, b u t. the implementation of that, too, is
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16 1 really where the meat of the situation is.
2 If I were characterize in my view since I have 3 been involved in. the Q A programs, which has been since like 4 '73 or so, I think that the biggest problem and-one that is 5the most difficult to cure from a regulatory point of view 61s,that the program lives or dies depending on the attitude
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i 7 of the management and I mean the fairly top management.
8 I think in many cases they simply delegate all QA
.9 responsibility to some contractors and they may or may not
'10 pa'y and'$tt'ention to implementing recommendations to the 11 contractors,,in other words, putting in their own design or 12 engineeking organizations the f act that the 0A should be f'/13 takey siriously.
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14 f-Another thing I have seen in that even though the
'16 management reporting ' level might be high, they make, if you i-16 will pardon the expression, some good old boy that is close t
i 17 to hetireneht. t,he O A manager without particular expertise in g.
r 18 quality assuritie bd6 say with just a general engineering i
19 background and he 'ia'y not be aggressive enough to really use 20 his reportine 6esponsibilit/ or he may not be taken 21 seriously a~nd the problem just sort of flops along.
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j 22 I think those that have had agressive people in OA l
43 organizations and ones tht can communicate with management, a
24 and I think there are a' number of those that I could cite, I 25 judge that they do a pretty good job and the management does
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4' COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa' 'Well, in some of those 5 cases we -have~ got a combination of-a utility which is 1
6 building its first plant hiring a constructor who is 7 building his first plant.
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.NR. DENTON:
And they obyiously don't have all the 9 procedures. in place and the experience of working under a~QA 10 system and I would think that would be a prime op'portunity 11 f r.f ailing to ever get the institutional controls into u
s 12 place that it would take for a program.
13 I was out at LaSalle last week, which is an 14 uncontested. case, and asked them about their QA program.
15 Wha t you find there is they were able to produce thick 16 documents and say here were the questions we developed to 17 ask our architect / engineer and they are quite detailed i
t 18 questions about pipe supports, small Lore piping, i
19 hydroanalysis, thermal expansion, weight, codes and so forth.
20
'Then they sent out a team from the QA department
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21 who interviewed people and asked those questions and in 22 about half of the areas they have deficiencies in the 23 program of their architect / engineer back in
'79.
They did
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24 audit calculations and they would find drawing errors and 25 they had a process for resolving it all.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINI/. AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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So you can find a thick stack of paper at some 2 utilities, and this was Commonwealth where they were 3 vigorously - pursuing the adequacy of their designers and it 4 seemed to be an effective system.
5 MR. REMICKa Who was the architect / engineer ---
6 MR. JENTON:
Sergeant Lundy.
Now apparently this 7 aust not have been taking place in some of the cases that we 8 have talked about.
If South Texas had been doing this kind 9 of thing early on you would think they would ha ve f ound it 10 much sooner than they did.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Harold, on Congressman 12 Udall's letter he sa ys:
"It is important, therefore, that 13 the Commission come forth with a sta tem ent presenting (A) m 14 the reasons that def ects of these kinds remained so long 15 undetected; and (B) an explanation of what is being done to 16 uncover any such situations at other plants."
17 Do you feel that we have addressed these questions?
18 It also says:
"Please be prepared to discuss the 19 South Texas matter and the information requested in the 20 foregoing paragraph at the Subcommittee's November 19 21 hea ring on quality assurance."
22 I didn't get a sense of feeling that that was 23 really done.
Well, I guess it is primarily your testimony.
24 MR. DIRCKS:
We will have John Collins here to 25 answer questions on South Texas.
ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
You know, originally I 2 thought both Jim Keppler and John Collins were going to 3 testify and therefo re I didn't have such severe comments on 4 your testimony as I do now that it stands alone even though 5 it is -- (Inaudible. )
6 MR. DENTON4 It certainly isn 't a hard-hitting 7 answer to those questions.
If you go back to page 6 of the 8 attachment we do list the laundry list of immediate causes 9 and we say these are all' traced to an ineff ective management 10 and then we list six areas in which we are trying to improve 11 the ability to find it.
12 Now not in here is any proposal to overhaul our QA
.4 13 system and we have not been able to develop a fix f'or this 14 problem.
15 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE4 It was your supplemental 16information which finally first got down to some of the 171ssues that we re being asked about.
So I would almost scrap 18 the testimony and present the supplemental as the testimony.
19 Second, you do begin to talk about there are going 20 to be revisions in there or there is a re-examination of the j
21 construction program.
I guess that really triggered in my l
22 mind that this ought to be the DeYoung part of it.
i 23 CHAIRMAN PA1LADI30s Well, originally wasn't this 24 part of Keppler's ---
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25 MR. DENION:
I think originally it was Ste11o's t
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20 1 testimony.
2 CHAIBMAN PALLADINO:
What?
3 HR. DENTON4 Originally it was Ste11o's testimony 4 bef ore he was reassigned.
5 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD4 It may still not be a bad 61de a.
7 ER. DENTON Then after that occurred it was to be 8 split I guess between DeYoung and I.
9 HR. DIRCKSs Then we found out we were genera ting 10 lots of testimony and you would never get a chance to 11 deliver it up there.
You are asked to sunmarize briefly and 12 then get on with the questions and answers.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
First y'ou say that the 14 resident inspectors are going to be a key part and then the 15 enforcement posture is going to be toughened or it is being 16 toughened and then there is a trial program of team 17 inspections and the construction inspection program is under 18 revision.
Then there are performance appraisals of licensee l
19 by the SAL program.
Then there is the mobile laboratory.
20 These are all basic ICE.
21 MR. DIRCKS It is going to be submitted and they 22 develop questions on it I guess.
23 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
None of it says that NRR, 24 were a construction permit to be filed, we are going to take 25 a tougher, tighter -- (Inaudible.)
I i
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MR. DIRCKS:
I think we are looking at Harold as 2 only the spokesman for the agency.
He is not representing 3 NRR or DeYoung representing ICE.
This cuts across several 411n es.
It cuts across NRR, ICE and it cuts across how it is 5 implemen ted in the regions.
All ve are looking for is 6someone to act as a spokesman for the total agency.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Carl had a comment.
8 MR. KAMMERER We had an observation that the 9 so-far proposed supplemental testimony ought to be the 10 central testimony and that the other ought to be attached in 11 some way.
12 And insof ar as giving that testimony, there are 13 three options.
That is the Chairman, that is the EDO or it 141s Dick DeYoung.
Harold, at least structurally it seems to 15 me, ought not to be (Inaudible.)
16 (Laughter.)
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 Harold, the additional 18 inf orma tion, was this not originally basically Keppler's 19 testimony?
20 MR. DENION Yes.
21 3R. DIRCKS4 It was a mixture, and then Collins 22 had 23 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 And I never did see the 24 proposed Collins' testimony, but I did see an earlier 25 version of the proposed Kepler testimony and some of the ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
a s
22 1same detail was in there.
2 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEa And I think that he said 3 originally it was Ste11o's testimony.
4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Yes, originally it was 5 S te11o's.
6 COMMISSIONER BRADFORDs I in reading through it 7 have the same reaction that seems to have occurred to a 8 couple of others.
My specific suggestion would have been 9 that at least some part of the supplemental testimony be 10 cannibalized and put up in the Chairman's testimony.
11 (Laughter.)
12 COMMISSIONER BR ADFORD s The problem at the moment 131s that your testimony, Joe, doesn't acknowledge the 14 problems that are the basis for the hearing and doesr't say 15 what we have done about them case by case.
16 In fact, as I was reading through I get thinking, 17 s y God, where is this stuff?
Then I finally found it at the 18 end in something that wasn't intended to be delivered at 19 all.
My reaction was that it would get the hearino off on a a better footing to put it up in the front.
Just here are the 21 areas in which we have had problems and here is what we have 22 done about them case by case.
The more difficult area of u course is the one Harold has already mentioned, which is 24 tha t there is no comprehensive reassessment of quality 25 assurance in prospect.
But we ought to a t least be ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
e e
23 1 presenting a direct answer to the committee's concerns right 2 at the beginning.
3 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s I agree.
I did not 4 necessarily feel that it had to be in my version, but it 5 certainly had to be in the follow-up version.
6 (Laughter.)
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s I had the same feeling 8 Harold did.
9 MR. DENTON:
I share some of your concerns.
We 10 have just not been able to turn it into the kind of 11 testimony you would like to have.
12 COMMISSIONER AREARNE:
I think the supplemental is 13 fine and va should make tha t the basic testimony because it
.c 14 addresses your problems.
It talks about the specific plants 15 and then it talks about to the extent we have things 16 underway and here is the list.
17 COMXISSIONER ROBERTSs I have a question and this 18 aay be minutia, but why is the NRC conducting NDE7 19 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Conducting what?
20 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
Nondestructive 21 e xa mina tion.
I don 't understand why our inspectors are 22 conducting those tests.
I thought we monitored and 23 supervi sed.
24 MR. DIRCKS:
There was a creat cry that we weren't 25 doing enough independent measurements back in 1976.
There ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S W., WASHINGTON, O C. 20024 (202) $54 2345
24 1 was a feeling that NRC was just auditing paper as opposed to 2 getting in and doing independent measures.
3 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs We just do a little.
4 MR. DIRCKS:
We just do a little, a very little 5 --(Simultaneous Conversations - Inaudible).
6 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
Was it one of these vans at 7 every construction site?
8 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY No, no.
There is one of
'9these vans in a region.
About every region I think has a 10 van.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
How many are in Region 2, do 12 you know ?
13 MR. DENTON:
Not more than on or two, I don't 14 think.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
So it 5s just a matter of 16 occasionally spot checking.
17 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
I understand.
18 COMMISSIONER BRACFORD:
My feeling had always been 191n f act that we should be doing more and not less by way of 20 ind epend en t verification because we kept finding things.
l 21 MR. DIRCKS:
But it not just a little bit more.
22 Again, at what point do you cross over and you assume 23 responsibility f or the construction of that facility?
There l
24 is a four billion dollar investment there and you would 25 think ---
l l
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COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Well, it probably isn't 2 the place to rerun the budget, but there certainly is a 3 point at which you are checkinc cnough camples to be 4 ressonably confident that you have got a representative 5 group and I don't think we are there.
6 HR. DENTON:
Part of this issue I see is we 7 thought we had the problem cured back in the mid-Seventies 8 when the requirements were issued and philosophically 9 perhaps they were curred.
What was not appreciated was the 10 dif ficulty of getting these requirements fully implemented 11 through the human f actors of the shif t supervisors and the 12 QA inspectors and the management.
That has been a tougher 13 task and I think we decla red success in '75 with the
.c 14 issuance of much of these requirements and walked a wa y.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Well, I was a little 16 worried about that.
There were regional meetings held and 17 sem inars.
18 MR. DENIONs Tha t is righ t.
There was a big 19 ef f ort to put it in to place.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa I think Dixie went to one 21of these.
22 MR. DENTON4 Yes, tha t is right.
They were held 231n every region and met with upper utility management and at 24 the time it was perceived as s quantum leap in that they had 25 teally put this problem behind us.
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CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
Harold, if Vic Stello had not 2 changed jobs, would Vic Stello have been presenting the 3 testimony that 'is included in the back-up information?
4 HR. DIRCKS:
Well, at that point he was the only 5 one who volunteered to go up.
6 (Laughter.)
7 CHAIEMAN PALLADINO:
What I am getting at is if it 8 was appropriate for him to -- (Simultaneous Conversations -
9 Inaudible) 10 COMMISSIONER BRADFORDa I thouaht the 11 reorganization had cured that problem.
Don 't you have the 12 a uthority?
.c 13 (Laughter.)
.. m 14 NR. DIRCKS:
Well, there are certain things you 15ask people to do and certainly you would like a villing teparticipant.
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
There are certain things that 18go along with the job.
I think if the Director of ICE is 19 the appropriate one to make a presentation, especially on 20 the supplemental ma terial, then it doesn't matter who the 21 individual is and he should be the one doing it.
22 Somehow I think that what they want to hear is 23 contained in the back-up information f ar more than it is in 24 the other information.
25 Maybe you would like to present i t ---
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27 1
(Laughter.)
2 OHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s I am serious.
I as trying to 3 think where can we get this information summarized 4 effectively without putting it on Harold's back when it is 5 mostly not Harold 's activity.
He can describe the 6 requirements but I don't think that is what they are 7 interested in.
8 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Is there a problem in 9 having Dick do it?
10 MR. DIRCKSa No, there is no problem in having 11 Dick do it.
12 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO In what?
.c 13 MR.'DIRCKS:
Dick will take it up and do it.
.e 14 COMMISSIONER BRADFORDa Does that make more sense 15 than having Vic do it?
In fact, most of this history was 16 when he was head of ICE, and to the extent they have 17 questions it is going to be probably easier for him to 18 answer them.
19 MR. DIRCKSs I am sure there vill be specific 20 questions and we vill have the two critical regional people 21 there to answer the questions if they get very specific.
i 22 Vic couldn't handle those specific questions, I am sure, and 23 the regions 1 people can.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Was John in that South 25 Texas region when the South Texas QA problems developed ?
I i
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E 28 1 don 't think so.
0 2
CONMISSIONER BRADFORDa Not-initially, no.
Not at 3 the beginning.
4 NR. DIRCKSa Not at the beginning but certainly at 5the end.
Meanwhile it has been the project down there that 6 he has had to cope with.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s I really think if you are 8 going to have the head of ICE there it ought to be Dick 9 DeYoung.
We ought not to continue the appearance that Vic 101s still in ICE and it is Dick DeYoung's job even though he 111s relatively new and he can use whatever back-up people he 12 needs.
13 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE Of course, he has been the' 14 deputy there.
15 COMMISSIONER ROBERTSs So it is not like he is new.
to CHAIREAN PALLADIN0s Yes.
He is not new, that is 17 tru e.
18 Mr. DIRCKSa I know I would volunteer to do it, 19 too, if you think it is best.
I aean I don't aean to be M pushing it off on Dick.
If you think it is better and it 21 cuts across the agency lines I will be happy to go up there 22 and do it.
23 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s Well, how necessary it is to 24 present all the background general material that is in 25 Harold's testimony now?
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29 1
MR. DENTON:
It has been a moving target and we 2 have gotten more and more letters f rom Congress asking f or 3 more explicit information.
I think when we first heard 4 about the hearing we felt we ought to start with the front 5 end about 2 A.
Now by the time we have gotten all the 6 guidance from Congress they really want to know about the 7 specifics.
So it has changed the focus of the hearing to 8 the problem areas and the line-up of witnesses they have got 9 go to the problem a reas.
10 They haven't invited, oddly enough, South Texas 11 Utility who actually had the Quadrex Keport done.
12 COMMISSIONER ROBERTSs Who are the other witnesses?
.y 13 MR. DIRCKS PGCE and ourselves.
Let me ask Carl... e 14 MR. K AMM ER ER :
It is PGCE, Richard Hubbard and a 15 pan el.
16 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Who?
17 COMMISSIONEB AHEARNE4 Richard Hubbard.
.18 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is the Governor of 19 California's representative?
20 MR. DENTON:
Yes.
21 MR. KAMMERER :
There is a panel including Richard 22 Eck e rt, Chairman of the AIF Panel on Nuclear Design and 23 somebody from Bechtel, AIF and GAO.
24 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO But they don 't have South i
25 Texas there?
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MR. KAMMERER No.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s But they do ask specifically 31n their October 30 letters "Please be prepared to discuss 4 this Sout,h Texas matter and the information requested in the 5 foregoing paragraph."
6 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Who do you have in mind as 7 answering detailed questions on Diablo since that Regional 8 Director won 't be there?
9 MR. DIRCKSs I had planned to answer those.
10 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO Harold will be there.
11 COMMISSIONER BRADFORDs This may not be the 12 mom en t, but it seems to me there is a bit of a discrepancy
,y 13 between the ICE report on Diablo, as'I understand it, and
,c 14 the thrust of Harold's testimony on Diablo.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa (Inaudible.)
16 COMMISSIONER BRADFORDs If it is right that the 17 breakdown of QA is what is involved in the failure to 18 authenticate the document then the implication that I get 19 f rom the ICE report is that in fact the problem is that 20 Blume thought that the two plants were identical rather than 21 mirror images.
It is different.
If Slume understood what 22 diagram he was getting, then it isn't a QA breakdown.
23 COMMISSIONER GILINSXY I am not sure that it was 24 a Q A problem or that f ull implementation of QA would have 25 solved that problem.
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31 1
MR. DENTONa When the meeting ended there was no 2 dif ference of opinion with the company beca use all the 3 parties, my staff and the regional staff participated in 4 putting together the proposed letters and these sorts of 5 things.
Unless new information has come out it must be in 6the nuances.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs Well, I believe it is more 8 thsn a nuance I think in that the ICE report on Diablo, 9 which I guess came in Friday or Thursday, they say that it 10 wasn 't tha t there was a misinformation in the transfer, but 111t was that the Blume Company believed that the two plants 12 were designed identically.
It did not believe that they 13 were a mirror image.
.c 14 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
But that is basic 15 misinformation.
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE4 Yes.
17 COMMISSIONER BPADFORD:
Yes, but it is different.
Is You see, up until the ICE report I had had thought that when to Blume was given the diagram that they actually misunderstood 23 which unit it a pplied to.
The ICE report said that Blume 21 when given the disgrams new the diagrams were applicable to 22 Unit 2.
They were not aware that Unit 1 and Unit 23 con tain m en t annulus acess are mirror images.
Tha t is, they 24 thought they were identical.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa It struck me that every ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S W WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 664 2345
32 1 step the PGCE took was in its own terms a correct step.
2 CHAIRMAN PALLADINCs I can't agree with that.
3 They handed untitled, undated and unsigned ---
4 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD4 Yes, Joe, but my poin t ---
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
My point is that had they 6done it properly they would have said the Unit 2 layout and 7 the Unit 1 layout and Blume would have seen that they were 8 dif ferent.
But you can't just give him a piece of paper 9 that has nothing more than just a few lines on it.
10 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD No, that is fair enough.
11 But if in f act they had given him that piece of paper and it 12 said this is Unit 2, then Blume would have gone off and used 13 1t for Unit 1 anyway because Blume thought they were the 14 same.
Your point is they should have gotten two different 15 pieces of paper.
16 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s They should have gotten two 17 dif ferent pieces of paper.
18 MR. DENTON:
You know, you have got something I 19 haven 't read.
When the inspectors were back here they 20 repeatedly said in our informal meetings that they couldn't 21 find that the error was within Blume but that it was within 22 PGCE and they just kept reitera ting that in all the meetings 23 ve ha ve had with them.
24 Now we will need to clear that up.
The same 25 people who providad.the input that vont into what we have ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRolNIA AE $ W., WA$HINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) $54 2348
33 1 done so far wrote the report.
So I think it just shows you 2 have to be careful in reading the two together.
3 NB. DIRCKSs I think that is important Falkenberry 4 and crews who wrote the ICE report participated in ---
5 NR. DIRCKSs Concurred in the draft that we have 6 proposed and so forth.
7 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is fine.
But Peter 8 has pointed out, and I agree with him, we do have a written
~
9 report fros ICE that makes a different point and it is a 10 point at least that I had never heard before.
Had you?
11 MR. YOLLMER No.
I am a little surprised at it.
12 MR. DENTON:
Well, I had heard it before if you 13 vant 'to get into it.
There was a discussion at the
.c 14 pre-see ting that NRR and ICE had and I think it was attended 15 by Commissioner Gilinsky, part of it, of whether or not 16 Blume should have known tha t there was a difference between 17 the two units and how could he have been the designer on two 18 and not know that the two weren't exact.
You know, it goes 19 back to the same point you raised.
No one case to any 20 definitive conclusi)n in the meeting at the time and it was 21 concluded that it was a PGCE problem.
22 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs But it was that PGCE 23 didn't lay on a more demanding or tougher system on Blume 24 and one hopes that if they had Blume would havn known that 25 the two plants were mirror images of each other or would ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRQlNIA AVE., $ W., WASHINQfoN. O C. 20024 (202) $$4 2345
3 84 1have handled them separately.
But in f act, even though it 2 is outrageous that they handed them unlabeled diagrams, they 3 understood them to be Unit 2 and Blume understood them to be 4 Unit 2.
He then used them for Unit 1, at least that is what 5the ICE report says, thinking that the plants were identical 6 and handed them back a report labeled Unit 1 which was then 7 wrong.
Of course they knew that the plants were mirror 8 images so then they flipped tha t over internally.
That is 9 what I meant by in wrong terms.
In terms of what they knew to the steps -- (Simultaneous Conversations - Inaudible).
11 MR. DENION:
All the information was coming from 12 the Region V inspectors in this area.
13 MR. VOLLMER:
In principle if PGCE had followed 14 the Appendix B OA program they should have given Blume 15 something which required no Blume knowledge of what the 16 plant looked like in a sense.
17 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD4 Essentially Joe's point, 18 two sets of diagrams.
19 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Can I get back to how we 20 should proceed on this testimony.
I still was interested in 21 how much you felt we ought to give of this general testimony 22 that is in Harold Centon's proposed testimony.
23 I guess I am getting down to they are giving us 15 24 minutes.
I think they want to get to the nub of the 25 problem.
One could get to the nub of the problem by just At. DER $oN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
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35 1 going dire:tly to the supplemental document.
2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs You might want a paragraph 3 just saying about Appendix B and the date of the original 4 requirements and that is it.
5 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
If you do that, of course, 6 you do have to carry the Diablo Canyon discussion into the 7 second one because that isn't covered.
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO I am afraid that if we go Sinto this much detail on general that we are not going to 10 get to the specifics.
11 MR. VOLLMER:
You could cut it of f at the top of 12 page 3, the first pa ra g ra ph there, at least saying who is 13 responsible for Q A, i.e., the management or the licensee, 14 and wha t the NRC's involvement is and then go to the 15 specifics f rom there.
16 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Where are you?
17 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Page 3.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Of Harold's testimony and top 19 t here ?
Stop there or start there?
20 KR. VOLLMER:
Stop there.
I 21 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 Then go to Diablo Canyon?
i 22 MR. DENTON No, then go to the back, all the way 23 to the back section on Diablo Canyon.
24 MR. VOLLMER:
Yes, then go to the back, right.
25 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs I will tell you l
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36 1something.
Nowhere in here does it say what QA is.
I don't 2 think any Congressman is going to know what QA is.
3 COMMISSIONER BRADFORDs I would add a subpoint 4 there which is that if you are going to use the QA/QC 5 formulation you have to define the difference.
6 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs I think you just have to 7 say in one paragraph who checks whom and what is it they are 8 checking.
9 NR. Y3LLMER:
As I see the definition, it is sort 10 0 f the last sentence in the top paragraph on page 2 of 11 Harold's testimony.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa Well, but again you are 13 talking about a management tool, a compendium of practices
,e 14 and procedures and you have to know what all these things 15 sean.
If you came to it cold I don't think you could ---
16 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 In cid en tally, you talk about 17 quality assurance and design, quality assurance and 18 construction and quality assurance and operation but you 19 d on ' t talk auch about operstion.
Maybe that is not the 201ssue here, but you do talk about the other two.
Even 21though you mention operation, nothing is ever done with 22 opera tion.
23 MR. DENTON:
A good poin t.
We ought to delete it l
24 or since it is not being ---
25 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO Or say that we are not going l
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37 1 to talk much about operation.
2 MR. DENTON:
This is really focused on 3 construction.
4 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa I think just somewhere you 5have to say a craftsman does his work and he checks his own 6 work.
There are inspectors that are attached to the 7 construction organization and that is quality control at the 8 site and there is an overlay on that of checking whether 9 that system is working and to just explain it in those to terns.
The guy is either velding or he is bolting something 11 or he is cutting something or whatever.
I don't think it 12 takes more than s paragraph or two, Lut you need to make
,y 13 this tangible.
.c 14 MR. DENTOMs I think with that kind of instruction 15 we can write that, just an introduction to the topic, and 16 then go into the a ttachment and give the specifics for each 17 of the plants.
18 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs I think that would be to fine.
In fact, I think it would be ---
20 CHAIRMAN PALLADINOs Let me try a specific 21 suggestion and I will give you an alternate also.
Suppose 22 you had Harold give up to the top of page 3 and the Diablo 23 Canyon, if he could do that in seven minutes.
Then have 24 Dick DeYoung give the major features of the attachment.
I 25 think that would be one way.
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30 1
Another way is try to have it all incorporated in 2 one and have Bill do it, but I think I would lean towards 3 having two if it can be done in seven and eight minutes 4 respectively.
6 Now, there is more here than Dick could give in 6eight minutes.
7 NR. DIRCKS:
Even the attachment is too long.
8 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, maybe some reduction 9 could be made there.
to CONNISSIONER AHEARNEs I think you will probably 11 vant all the points in it.
It is just that in what he ends 12 up saying he would have to abbreviate it.
13 COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
Carl, wha t is the natur' e 14 of the invitation to this one?
Is this all Commissioners 15 plus relevant staff ?
to MR. KAMMERER:
No, it is the Chairman just giving 17 an opening prayer kind of a statement and then getting into 18the specific details of the plants.
to CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I read you the one M paragraph.
We have two letters, one dated Octcher 13 from 21 Udall where he is talking about the Cetober 29th meeting and 22 he talks about 15 minutes.
Then I have the October 30th 23 that ref ers to the November 19th meetino.
I read you the 24 paragraph that I thought most applied.
25 In the first parsgraph on the October 30th letter ALDERSON REPoRflNQ COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRQiNIA AVE., S W, WASHINGTON. D C. 20024 (202) 654 2348
39 1he sayss "I recently received a report entitled " Design 2 Review of Brown and Root Engineering Work for the South 3 Texas Project."
In addition to raising explicit questions 4 as to the adequacy of the South Texas project design, the 5 report raises important questions as to how the deficiencies 6of the kind enumerated in the report would have escaped 7 detection by the NRC."
a Then he says:
"In sy letter of August 20th on the 9 Zismer project, I referred to General Accounting Office 10 remarks regarding the tardiness of the NRC Office of 11 Inspectien and Enforcement in conf ronting allegations of 12 harassment of quality control inspectors at South Texas.
13 The Quadrex report suggests additional reason to doubt the 14 efficacy of the Of fice of Inspection and Enforcement in 15 monitoring activities at this site."
to Then it goes ons "As you know, there is a 17 widespread belief among the Members of Congress," and he ta asks us to address the points that I highlighted earlier.
to MR. DENTON:
Based on these later letters, it 23 seems the focus is not on what the requirements are but it 21 goes to the specific breakdowns in isplementing them and 22 they are the ones that would be best addressed probably by 23one spokesman lumping them altogether and characterizing 24 them somehow and proposing a course of action for them.
26 Ths t in more in the back attachment at the moment.
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1 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
That is why when I read it 2 it didn't seem to me that that was really addressing th e 3 points.
4 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, an alternative was to l
8 put them all together and take the key parts of yours and 4 the key parts of the back part.
I don't know what you feel 7 about it.
But I think that Dick ought to be there.
8 MR. DIRCKS:
Yes, Dick will be there.
1 9
COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs Well, I think he ought to 10 aore than be there.
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
The challenge that they are 12 raising is ICE.
Udall's last letter speaks specifically to 13 doubting the efficacy of CICE in monitoring activities at W
14 the site.
This is South Texas.
Then previously he referred 16to CAO's remarks regarding the tardiness of the NRC Offt:e toof Inspection and Enforcement.
So the focus really is on 17 ICE.
Is CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Do you think we could get it 19 combined with Harold speaking for about five or six minutes 200n a few of the general points in the first part and then 21 going immediately to Diablo Canyon and then have Dick come 22 in with the rest of it?
l 23 ER. DIRCKSa If the committee wants to kick around l
l 24 a staf f member or an of fice, then my inclination would be to 2svolunteet to on up there synelf because I would rather have l
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41 1our taking our own people to task or our own programs to 2 task than have the Congressmen lead of f on one of the staff 3 people.
John's point is right I think that they do want to l
4 zero in one of fice and one program.
Rather than have then
)
i 6 do that to an individual, I would rather go up and take 6their brunt myself.
7 CONNISSIONER ANEARNE:
You mean testify because l
6you have to have ---
l l
9 NR. DIRCKS They will be there, right.
l 10 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS 4 I agree to that.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
What is that?
(
12 COMMISSIONER ROBERTS:
I agree to that.
13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa They also might suggest
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14 that the Commission ought to testif y.
i is "HAIRMAN PALLADIN04 Well, I am sure they will i
16 cose back to the Chairman and ask him what he is doing about 17all this.
I think seversi poin ts are worth making.
16 One, we do recognize that there are some teinsufficiencies in whit we do.
We recognize them and that m is the first step that we are trying to get them corrected.
l l
2t I would then go to the five points or six points 2211sted in the back of this document.
23 Maybe you could une the Tenn State game in 24 pointing out that ICE is a little bit liko Penn State 25 pla ying Alabama.
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42 1
(Laughter.)
2 CHAIRNAN PALLADIN06 It has got good talents.
It 3 has done well in a number of situations but it certainly 4 hasn't done well enough to be No.1.
In Inspection and 5 Enforcement we have good talent and we have done well in a e number of instances but we have got to do better if we are 1
7 going to be No.1 and there is no other place we can be eexcept to be No.
1.
9 MR. DENIONa We f ell down just in the execution.
10 (Laughter.)
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s I would go along with your I
12 making an overall presentation combining the first part and 13 the second part just so we get rather quickly to the
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14 specifics that I think they are interested in.
15 Do you think we need the Director of Region V J
18there or not for Diablo Canyon?
17 RR. DIRCKSa Is it all in one morning, Carl, all is of these people testifying?
19 HR. KANNERERa Yes.
20 MR. DIRCKS I don't know whether we can 21 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s I am not suggesting that it j
22 ought to be.
I as raising the question.
23 MR. DIRCXS4 You know, it would be overkill 24 almost.
We will have myself there, you will be there, l
25 Harold will ba there, Dick DeYoung would be there and we f
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5 CHAINAN PALLADIN0s Do they st, art at 107 6
at. XARMERER 9:45.
7 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s ho govs on first?
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s BR. KAMMERER:
The NRC.
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CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
The NRC goes on first?
10 N[.KAMMERLDs Yes.
i 11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs
.Who is going to be there ' l' 12 Who is f amiint with the Quadrex Report?
',i 13 NR. DIRCKSs John Collins where ce there.
Itu t, en c
14 Harold pointed out, it is f unny that the company which paid 15for and asked for the ---
16 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEs I understand tha t.
17 NR. DIRCF,Sa lie vill be there, John ce,111ns.
to COMMISSIOUR AllEARNE:
Itas NRR re viewed that 19 report?
20 MR. DENTON:
We 'inve had it a couple of weeks and 21I understand f rom John that they and the pompany have s.et 22 extencively on it and votie over it in detail.
So they are 23 the only ones who would understand the detailed questions.
24 COMMISSIONER AHEARNES I would eFract that some Of 25 the questions that you kill get, at least if I were sittinq i
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, J /,MR. DIRCKE4 It should be down-here this morning.
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COMMISSYO3ER AHEARNE:. Okay.
So someone vill be
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t 4 prepared then to s'asver if this important?
If it is Simportant, should we have caught it.
If we should have i
P 6 caught it, why, didn 't we ?
I expect that those questions n, f.
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/( HR. DIRCKSa Collins' statement that he was almost r
i l 9 ready to'aive'reycIved completely around the Quadrex.
10
' COMM SSIONER AHEARNE:
We must have had that 11 report a long time'.
t.
'I 12
'MR. DIRCKSa No.
I think it only got here a
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We have not had it a long time.
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14 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE4 Really?
They did not give 151t ---
E 16 ER. DIRCKS No.
17
. COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Interesting.
18 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN04 Norm, do we have a copy of i
t to that in 'the of fice, the Quadrex Report?
20 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE4 Yes, it is up here.
21 MR. HALLER: (Nodding affirmatively.)
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I better make sure I --
j' 23 (Simultaneous Conversations - Inaudible).
24' MR. VOLLMER:
Until recently I think they had it 25 on site.
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-COMMISSIONER BRADFORD:
When you say they had it 2 on site, Dick, who do you mean?
3 Mk..VOLLMERs I think that South Texas kept it on 4 site and I think the regions were allowed access to it.
5 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
But the region knew of it 6 then.
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7 MR. DENTON:
Questions of what did you know when a;
8 are the toughest to answer..But it is my understanding that 9 the region was reading the report during the spring.
10 MR. DIRCKS:
It was done in May I think, wasn't it?
11 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
I see.
12 MR. DENTON:
But it was closely held ---
,d 13 MR. DIRCKS:
I think we only physical'ly got ahold...
m 14 of the thing in the agency ---
15 CORMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Were we informed of the 16 existence of it here?
T 17 MR. DENTON:
I don't know.
18 MR. DIRCKS4 I don 't know whether anyone up and 19 down the line.
I never heard of it until a couple of weeks 201 g 0.
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I gather for some time they l
22 weren 't anxicus to let us ha ve it.
23 MR. DENTON:
That is right.
I guess they were 24 t rying to decide what they were going to do with the report 25and they had the contractors standing by.
Then it did get ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, j.
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400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 3
l 46 1 served on all the parties and at about that time I guess is 2 when it became widely ---
3 MR. DIRCKS:
I guess it served as the basis for 4 the discharge of Brown and Boot.
5 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, we don 't have auch time h
6 between now and the 19th.
Is it agreed that you are going 7 to try and combine the testimony and you are going to make 8 the presentation, Bill?
9 MR. DIRCKS:
Right.
10
( La u g h te r. )
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
I think a number of us have
\\
12 specific little comments that you will probably want to 13 f actor into the rewrite if these points are covered and we 3
14 can give them 'to you.
15 MR. DIRCKS:
All righ t.
16 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Now the Commission would g
t 17 probably like to see the rewritten version even though we 3
18 aay not meet again on this.
19 MR. DIRCKSt Dick Vollmer and I will work on it 20 then.
21 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, I am going. to suggest 22 that each Commissioner give you their detailed comments and 23 as soon as you have a draf t you feel you are comfortable 24 with how about sending it down so we can all take a look at 25 it.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
47 1
MR. DIRCKS:
We can maybe piece it together 2 sometime today and try to get it back to you.
3 COHNISSIONER AHEARNEs I urge you to bring DeYoung 41nto that group.
5 MR. DIRCKS:
Oh, yes.
6 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Because a lot of the 7 questions are going to be focused on him and he ought to be 8 begin in ten se preparation in tha t regard.
9 HR. KAHMERER:
The subcommittee is expecting that 10 testimony tomorrow.
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADIN0s What is that ?
12 MR. KAMMERERs The subcommittee is expecting the 13 testimony to be delivered tomorrow.
.. ]
14 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO The final.
15 Cc".FISSIONER GILINSKY:
I would add that we were 16 talking a'. Lat, you know, what is the root of the problem and 17 you were saying, Ha rold, it is in the testimony.
We all say 18 f re quently that it is a management f ailure or a failure at 19the top, or something.
It seems to me that is an answer of 20 such magnit.ude that it isn ' t suf ficient in the sense that 21 every thing that f ails is in some sense a managment failure 22 and I think we need to get a little more specific.
23 MR. DENTONs Well, clearly, I think the six things 24 ve have talked about aren ' t those hard-hitting, you know, if 25you do these six they won't necessarily solve it.
It is ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
e 48 1 going more of the kind of thing we are doing.
It is hard to 2 come up with something that we could do that would guarantee
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3 rou won't have these problems in the future.
4 COMMISSIONER AHEARNEa Someone may end up asking a 5 question that Vic asked Stello, and I guess it was in the 6 Zimmer.
Remember you pointed out that they had all of these 7 problems in the quality assurance system.
8 COEMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Oh, yes.
Well, I will 9 tell you, I was there the other day and I am not sure.
The 10 point he was making was he was drawing a distinction between 11 the plant and the paper system.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
Right.
.s 13 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
I think that is something....
m i
14 we really need to think through because that is what I ran 151nto in talking with the company there.
They were saying, 16 you know, we have got problems in the paper, but we think 17 our plan is sound, and so on.
18 The fact is the paper system is the system by 19 which we keep the project under control and get the 20 assurance that is necessary for this kind of work.
It may i
21 be that the paper system is badly designed.
That is another 22 question.
Maybe they ought to redesign it or modify it or 23 whatever.
But anyway for the moment this is the system.
l 24 I was trying to think of an analogy here as a i
1 2511ttle bit like a bank that doesn't keep adequate records.
l ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, l
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4 (Laughter.)
5 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
So it is a mode of 6 operation which is simply impermissible.
In this technology 7 you have got to stay within well-defined limits.
And if 8 they haven't gotten into trouble yet, they are going to get 9 themselves into trouble later.
If this applied to a number 10 0f plants, it would get one or another of them into 11 dif ficulty.
12 COMMISSIONER AHEARNE:
What triggered my 4
13 reco11ection of Vic's point was that in readino through the
_. s 14 Quadrex Peport it never became clear whether all of these 15 whole host of array of items that they found were items 16 which they concluded would lead to significant weaknesses in 17 the construction of the pisnt.
They really were focused, it 18 seemed, on they were going to cause them problems in getting 19 that plant licensed.
That was the thrust.
20 It has slways puzzled me when I think through why 21 aren 't the quality assurance programs better.
The 22 puzzlement is, as I think you men tioned earlier, Bill, that 23 here is a multi-billion dollar facility being built and you 24 would think tha t the people who are responsible for building 25 tha t wouldn't put that in jeopardy in lousy construction ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINTA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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2 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYs You know, I think the guy
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3 was being honest with me.
He felt this really-is just a 4 paper overlay which is imposed which is separate from good 5 construction.
He says, we have built plants for a long time 6 and we didn 't mess around with all this stuff and we built a 71ot of good coal plants and this is the way we built this 8 one and I think when you are all through you are going to 9 find out it is okay.
10 MR. VOLLMERa Compare Yankee with a number of 11 current plants and it was a quality job.
12 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY You know, we have to have 13 an answer to does the system makes sense or doesn't it make.....
14 sense.
I assume we believe it does.
But if there are 15 aspects of it which are Mickey Mouse or which don't make 16 sense, then, you know, we need to deal with that, too.
17 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
But there is an aspect that 18 is important to tell them about coal.
They have built some 191arge coal plants the way they used to build old plants and 20 they have blown up.
21 (Laughter.)
22 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO What we don't want is that 23 same kind of performance.
24 COMMISSIONER GILINSKYa I think that point has got 25 to get made.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
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MR. VOLLMER:
As you point out, I think with the 2 complex technology, this is the only way we can have t
3 assurance that things are built right.
When you talk about 4 the development of the book cases of procedures to implement 5 the basic program, tha t is where in some ca ses on one 6 utility it might become Mickey House and paper game and-in 7 another utility it might be meaningf ul and it is very 8 dif ficult that we don't prescribe those.
9
' COMMISSIONER GILINSKY Don't these follow largely 10 from the basic code requirements?
11 MR. VOLLMER:
Well, the codes, you know, 12 specification will be given to a pressure vessel 13 manuf acturer and they' go do their thing and you have the 14 ASME audits and so on.
That is handled separately.
15 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY:
Aren't there code 16 requirements on welds that you have got the --(Simultaneous 17 Con versa tions - Inaudible).
18 MR. VOLLMER:
Yes, there are.
Those things are 19 pretty well defined.
20 COMMISSIONER GILINSKY How you exactly do that l
21 maybe a company requirement, but the basic requirements are i
l 22 code requirements.
23 MR. VOLLMER:
Those are well defined, yes.
24 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
Well, to permit you to have 25 time to get this done ---
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(Laughter.)
2 CHAIRHAN PALLADINO:
I am going to suggest I
3 that we give you out individual comments and then make the 4 combined testimony and see if we can't get it by tomorrow so 5 that we can see it at the same time at least we have to send 61t up if possible, or even try to see it beforehand, but I 7 am not sure that is going to be possible.
8 Is there any more that we should discuss on this 9 subject?
10 (No response.)
11 CHAIRMAN PALLADINO:
All right.
I want to thank 12 you.
.s 13 We will stand adjourned.
14 (Whereupon, at 11:45 a.m.,
the closed session 15 adj ourned. )
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20 21 22 23 l
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NUC:2AR REGtEA7. RT COMMISSICN 7 This is to ca.Mif7 that the attached proceedings c* efore the 13 the :: tatter cf DISCUSSION,OF CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY CLOSED MEETING - EXEMPTIONS 5, 9, 10 Dace of Proceeding:
.3 3_3 s_ g 3 Cocket llunker:
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