ML20207C603
| ML20207C603 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Crane  |
| Issue date: | 06/25/1986 |
| From: | NRC |
| To: | |
| References | |
| CH-S-002, CH-S-2, NUDOCS 8607210402 | |
| Download: ML20207C603 (73) | |
Text
r Sb
[ - Qf, 26,909 g ogg g
- 8!$yo
)
1 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Not yet, but%he u erstanding e today.
- 2 beforewelegf.Wy.
2 is that it is likely to be 00 S
b 'l 3
MS. WAGNER:
Thank you.
g!j
'j,[:
y r) 4 MR. PLAKE:
Judge Milho111n, the next witness is 5 Mr Husted, who needs to be sworn.
6 Whereupon, 7
CHARLES ELMER HUSTED 8 was called as a witness by counsel for TMIA and the Aamodts, 9 and having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified 10 as follows:
11 DIRECT EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. BLAKEs 13 0
Mr. Husted, would you please provide your full 14 name f or the record?
15 A
M y name is Charles Elmer Husted.
16 0
And would you state your current place of 17 employment?
18 A
I am currently employed by Metropolitan Edison GPU 19 Nuclear at Three Mile Island.
20 Q
And what is your current-position there?
21 A
I am presently an instructor in the licensed 22 operator training program for Unit 1.
Or the licensed 23 operator training department.
h, 24 MR. BLAKEs I have no more questions of Mr.
25 Husted, Judge Milh0111n.
t
..)
l
!!n!!7MRBS8S$i,9
~
C ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, j
400 VIAGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,910 e
1 CROSS EXAMINATION P]
2 BY MR. ADLERs 3
0 Good af ternoon, M r. Husted.
Fy name is Robert 4 Adler, and I represent the Commonwealth in this proceeding.
5 MR. BLAKE4 Judge Milho111n, there is one thing 6 that I might do before we engage in cross examination, and 7 tha t is to, in view of Mr. Husted 's anticipated testimony, 8 what I anticipate in the way of cross examination, and based 9 on yesterday's testimony by a witness on a similar -- what 10 r.ay be in a similar area, I am willing to stipulate that 11 with respect to Mr. Husted following Er. Ward's testimony 12 when he appeared here, counsel informed Mr. Hasted, lik e th e 13 other individual, of the testimony of Mr. Ward, and I will 14 stipulate that that was done.
15 It has already been referred to.
In any event, it 16 was referred to in the bench conference yesterday, an"d the 17 inf erence was to that today, but I am willing to stipulate 18 that to clear the air on it, and would object to further 19 inquiries or questions into that area.
But I want to make 20 that stipulation now to try to clear the air, and get going, 21 and I would ask for comments by the other parties to the 22 extent that that is not agreeable.
6 i
23 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
I did not hear the last few
({}
24 words you said, Mr. Blake.
25 MR. BLAKE:
I said, to the extent it is not
- -)
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
{
26,911
'a 5')
1 agreeable to the other parties, I would want to hear 2 comments from the other parties on this, if that is not an 3 acceptable approach.
g 4
JUDGE MILHOLLIN s If it not an acceptable approach 5 for you to object to further questions?
I am sorry.
6 MR. BLAKE:
Yes, I want to stipulate that that is 7 the case and I will object to further questions rather than B interrupting the witness's testimony once we get going.
9 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
I understand your position.
It 10 seems to me that the most expeditious way to proceed is to 11 take this witness's testimony and then consider any remarks 12 which might be made concerning the communication hr. Elake 13 has just mentioned.
]
14 BY MR. ADLER:
(R esuming) 15 0
Mr. Husted, I have placed two documents in front 16 of you, the first being Staff Exhibit 26, and I would like 17 to refer you to Page 39 of that document.
Have you read 18 this page?
19 A
Yes, I have.
20 0
Is this an accurate description of the interview 21 conducted of you on July 29, 1981, by NRC investigators 22 Christopher and Smith?
23 A
It does not agree with the notes taken by Mr.
(})
24 Christman, who was also present, and tha t is --
25 JUDGE MILHOLLINs Excuse me, Mr. Adler.
I have
$)
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,912 i
1 not yet found the matter we are referring to.
Could you 2 give me the citation again?
3 HR. ADLER:
Staff 26, at 39.
4 JUDGE MILHOLLINs Thank you.
5 ER. BLAKE:
To the extent that the witness is 6 going to refer to this document, I have copies and can 7 distribute it.
It has been distributed previously in 8 discovery, but I can distribute it now.
9 ER. ADLER:
I have copies, too.
10 MR. BLkKE:
Oh, you have?
11 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Go ahead.
12 (Whereupon, counsel handed the documents to the 13 parties ard the Special Easter. )
)
14 THE WITNESS:
The last paragraph says he was 15 queried concerning the possibility of reference material 16 being covertly brought into the classroom by examinees and 17 my statement as he has it was, he declined to respond to 18 this question or explain his reluctance to discuss the 19 issue.
I would like to comment on that in that it was just 20 my reluctance to discuss what took place over the entire 21 e xa m.
22 I felt that I was being asked to speak on 23 something that I coult. not speak on in a room that I was not 24 in.
I did explain to the gentlemen that I had seen no
]
25 material brought into the room that was not authorized by ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
26,913 g,,
1 the proctor of the exam.
But his comments on Page 39 do not q
2 indicate that.
3 Q
I 4
5 6
\\
.l I
i 7
8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 i
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
- ]
24 25
...e ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,914
'7.
1 BY MR. ADLER:
(Resuming) 2 0
Mr. Husted, as I understand your testimony, you 3 told the NBC investigators that you did not see materials
,_,i 4 brought into the exam rooms where you took the exam, but 5 that you could not make such a sta te men t for the other exam 6 rooms, is that correct?
7 A
That is the context of what I was trying to get 8 across, yes.
I may not have said it exactly that way, but 9 that is what I tried to tell them, and apparently he did not 10 understand what I was trying to tell him.
11 O
With that exception, is the material on page 39 an 12 accurate description of your interview with the NBC staff 13 investigators ?
r-14 A
As best I can recall, yes.
15 0
And was the information provided by you to the 16 investigators true and accurate to the best of your 17 knowledge and belief ?
18 A
Yes, sir.
19 0
The second document.I have placed in front of you, 20 Staff Exhibit 27, and I would like to refer you to page 16 21 of that document.
Have you read that page?
22 A
Yes, sir.
23 0
Is that page an accurate description of the
()
24 interview conducted of you by NRC investigator Mategas on 25 September 18, 19817
.b ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.b., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
26,915
).
1 A
Yes, it is.
'_?
2 0
And was the inf ormation provided by you during 3 that interview true and accurate to the best of your
)
4 knowledge and belief ?
5 A
Yes, it was.
6 0
On what days did you take the NRC examination?
7 A
The examination in April?
8 0
Yes.
9 A.
The second day that it was given.
10 0
Do you mean that you took the e'xam on the seccnd 11 two days that it was given?
12 A
Yes.
13 0
That is the third and fourth days.
14 A
I took the B exams, RO B and SRO E, on April 23
])
15 and April 24.
16 0
Do you recall whether you took it in the smoking 17 rooom or the nonsmoking room?
18 A
I took the examination in the smokers room.
19 0
Do you recall who was present during -- in the 20 room with you during the RO exam, other examinees, that is?
21 A
No, I do not.
22 0
During the SRO exam?
23 A
Yes.
c-24 0
Who was that, by letter?
d 25 MR. BLAKE:
Refer by letter.
)
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S,W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
1 l
)
26,916 1
THE WITNESS:
Mr. P.
2 BY MR. ADLER:
(Resuming) 3 0
Was he the only other person present taking the 4 exam?
5 A
Yes.
6 Q
Mr. Husted, are you aware of the fact that Mr. U 7 utilized your office on the two days that you took the 8 exam?
9 A
Yes, I am.
10 0
How do you know that?
11 A
I know it from the standpoint that I offered my 12 office to him in the morning prior to me going into the 13 exam.
9 14 0
On both days d.id you make that offer?
15 A
When the offer was made, it was made for both 16 d ay s, yes.
I do not recall making it on the second day.
17 0
Where were you when you offered the room to him?
18 A
In my office.
19 0
Was this before the exam on that day?
20 A
Yes.
21 0
Do you recall about what time it was?
22 A
Some time between 7:00 o' clock and the time the 23 exam started.
5 24 0
Do you know what he was going to be doing in your 25 office?
)
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
26,917 1
A I presume he was going to study.
.)
2 O
You presume but you do not know tha t?
3 A
That is what he asked me for.
That is the reason
/-\\
t 4 he was given my office, was to study in.
5 0
Did he say what he was studying f or?
6 A
Not that I recall directly.
7 0
Did he say what materials he was studying?
8 A
Not that I recall.
9 0
Do you have any speculation as to what he was 10 studying for after he had taken the exams?
I should tell 11 you that he took the exams the two preceding days.
12 A
We still had at that time an oral exam to take.
I 13 would be safe in assuming that he was studying for an oral
)
14 exam.
15 0
Was anyone else present when you offered your 16 office to him.
17 A
I do not recall.
18 0
How many training rooms are there in the training 19 complex?
20 A
At that time we had seven designa ted classrooms 21 and a general office area.
22 0
Two classrooms --
23 A
And eight offices.
24 0
Excuse me.
25 Two training rooms were being.used for the exams.
)
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTo O D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
b.*
26,918
.'~4 1 yhy couldn't Mr. U have used one of the other classrooms to 2 study in rather than your office?
3 A
I believe at the time there was one class in r-)
4 session in one of the classrooms.
The othe r classrooms, I 5 am not sure if they were in use or not.
He could have used 6 any room that was not being used.
It was just more 7 convenient to study in my office, because I had volumes of 8 ref erence material.
It was more out of convenience for him 9 than anything else.
to 0
You say that one class was being given.
Are you 11 certain that only one other class was being given?
12 A
No.
I am not even certain that one was being 13 given.
I believe there may have been at least one class in 14 session.
I am not sure of the training schedule during th a t 15 week.
16 0
Mr. U described a conversation that occurred in 17 the exam rooms prior to the exam being distributed on that 18 d ay, on the first day of the exan.
Were you present during 19 that conversation?
It was a general conversation among 20 operators about the exams on the previous days.
21 MR. E1AKEa I think your question said during the 22 first day.
Just for clarification and conceivably to help, 23 it was the morning of the third day.
Thursday morning would
)
24 have been the conversation that Mr. U was referring to.
25 MR. AD1ER:
That is correct.
N/
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINTA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
26,9.19 3
1 THE WITNESS:
Could you be more specific as to
~1 2 conversations ?
I was probably involved in many 3 conversations tha t morning before the exam.
I cannot recall m '
4 each individual conversation.
5 BY MR. ADLER:
(Resuming) 6 0
Well, let me ask you this.
Do you recall Mr. U 7 being present in the exam room on the day, the firct day 8 that you took the exam?
9 A
I do not recall his presence specifically, no.
10 0
How soon before the exam was distributed did you 11 arrive in the exam room?
12 A
I do not remember.
13 0
Was Mr. Bruce Wilson present when you arrived?
'])
14 (Pause.)
15 A
I am quite sure I was in the room prior to his 16 getting there during both exams.
The reason I say that is 17 bef ore the exam I went in and selected where I wanted to 18 sit.
So I am sure I was in the room prior to Mr. Wilson 19 arriving, on one occasion, anyway.
So I could not 20 specifically say whether he was in the room when I entered 21 or I was in the room and then he entered.
I really could 22 not say.
23 0
Do you recall when it was, relative to when you 24 a rrived at the exam room, that you had your conversation
'b-25 with Mr. U regarding the use of your office?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC,
)
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,920 P'=
1 A
No, I do not.
It was some time between 7:00 it was 2 o ' clock and the time that the room -- or in the f.
3 between 7:00 o ' clock and the time the exam was started.
4 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Who proposed the use of your 5 office?
Did you propose it to him?
6 THE WITNESS:
I do not specifically remember the 7 conversation as to whether I offered it to him or if he 8 asked if he could use it.
I do not specifically remember.
9 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Were you in charge of his work 10 assignments during his training week ?
11 THE WITNESS:
No.
12 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Who was?
13 THE WITNESS:
I think he was just in charge of
)
14 himself.
He was assigned to the training complex for study 15 reasons, study purposes, to study what he was -- what had 16 been determined as weak areas and areas he felt it necessary 17 to study.
18 BY HR. ADLER:
(Resuming) 19 0
Has Mr. U ever prior to the April exams asked you 20 to use his office -- to use your office to study?
21 A
It is really hard to say, because I often offered 22 the use of my office to people to study, because I had an 23 extra table in my office.
And the complex gets a little
'.h 24 crowded sometimes, and in some classrooms that are being 25 used f or study the conversation level gets loud enough that ALDERSoN PEPoRTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,921 1 some people cannot concentrate in that area.
So I offer my 2 office, which is quiet, to study.
3 I really could not say if he had ever used it
'l 4 bef ore or I had -- on any specific occasion.
5 0
Can you tell me what you -- what materials you 6 review in preparation for an oral exam?
7 A
Everything.
Specifically, all written materials 8 or lesson plans, plant design, system design, system 9 operations, operating procedures, technical specifications, 10 final acceptance criteria, FSAR, volumes of books.
11 0
Do you use old written exams in preparation for 12 oral exams?
13 A
Yes, that is one item.
)
14 0
When were the oral examinations scheduled as of 15 the time of the April exams?
16 A
I do not recall specifically.
17 0
Y'ou are a training instructor.
Are you familiar 18 with the weekly quizzes that are administered on a Friday at 19 the end of the training week?
20 A
Yes, I am.
21 0
Have you administered such quizzer?
22 A
Yes, I ha ve.
23 0
Have you proctored such quizzes?
24 A
On occasion.
-)
25 0
Have there been occasions when you have
)
i ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,922 Q
1 administered the quiz and then lef t the room?
2 A
res.
3 Q
About what percentage of the quizzes that you 4 proctored did you leave unattended?
5 A
Percentace of time out of the room, I would say 6 usually not more than 50 percent.
7 0
Were these quizzes open or closed book?
8 A
Most of them were closed book.
9 0
Did the operators -- were the operators instructed 10 that the quizzes were closed book when they were?
11 A
When they were, yes.
specifically instructed that they were 12 0
They were 13 closed book?
)
14 A
If a specific quiz was to be handled in a specific 15 manner, then they were so instructed as the quiz was handed 16 out.
17 0
Were examinees instructed to do their own work on 18 weekly quizzes?
19 A
I do not recall ever phrasing it that way.
20 0
Do you think they knew they were supposed to do 21 their own work?
22 A
I think so.
23 Q
To your knowledge, have there been occasions when Q
24 operators have cooperated with each other during the weekly e.
25 quizzes?
_-h ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
.26,923 1
A Yes.
A 2'
0 You know that?
3 A
Oh, yes.
9 4
Q Were they supposed to be?
5 A
It was allowed on occasions for -- it was allowed 6 on occasions.
7 0
Do you know of occasions when cooperation occurred 8 when they were not supposed to be cooperating?
9 A
Do you want a specific day or specific quiz?
10 0
Why don't you give me a general response, and then 11 if you can come up with specifics do so.
12 A
I recall having asked people to do their own work 13 on occasions when I have seen what I considered possible --
)))
14 possibly looking at each other's paper, if it had been 15 determined that that qui: was to be done on an individual 16 basis only.
17 0
can you remember what individuals were involved?
18 A
No.
19 0
Did you administer any of the quizzes during the 20 OARP program?
21 A
It is very probable that I have.
I do not 22 remember any specific quizzes that I did proctor.
But I am 23 sure I did because it was part of my job.
24 0
Do you consider it a part of your job as a member
-s NY 25 of the training department to ensure that operators do not
..)
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
26,924 1
1 gheat on licensee-administered examinations, for example, 2 mock examinations and NRC-administered examinations?
BT 3
A Absolutely, yes.
4 0
Following the April NRC exam, did you hear rumors 5 of cheating on the exam prior to the NRC investigation?
6 A
I heard something that at the time did not mean 7 anything, but for some reason I remembered it.
8 0
What was that?
9 A
I was walking somewhere in the training center and 10 I heard a part of a conversation as I walked by, and two 11 words stuck in my mind and that was " passing papers."
What' 12 papers, what time, during an exam or not during an exam, I 13 do not have any idea what they were talking about.
,,s) 14 0
Was it in the general tima frame of the April
~
15 examination ?
16 A
As I recall, it was some time within two weeks, a 17 week to ten days, of the administration of the exam.
18 0
That is the NRC exam?
19 A
Yes, the April exam.
20 0
Let 's turn to Staff 27 a t page 16.
You describe a 21 rumor that you heard near the coffee pot and the men's room 22 in the third paragraph on that page.
Is th at the same 23 instance that you are referring to?
24 A
Yes.
25 0
Are you certain that it was near the coff ee pot?
.)
i l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,925 1
A It is -- a better choice of words would be
'-)
2 "between the cof f ee pot and the men 's room," not nea r the 3 cof fee pot.
That would better describe where it took
-y,3 4 place.
5 0
Is that near your office?
6 A
Yes, it is.
7 0
How is it that you recall with that specificity 8 where the conversation occurred?
9 A
I believe it was at the -- the two individuals or to however many there were were in the area of the water 11 cooler, which is between the coffee pot and the men's room.
12 And it is also between my office and the men's room.
13 0
You just said "the two individuals."
Which 14 individuals were involved?
15 A
I said the two or more.
I do not specifically 16 remember any individuals' names who were a part of the 17 conversa tion.
l 18 0
Were there only two individuals?
19 A
I could not say for sure.
It could have been 20 three.
21 0
Do you recall any other specific words besides 22 "pa ssing papers"?
23 A
No.
24 Q
When you heard the word " passing papers, " did it i
(])
25 occur to you that they were referring to the exam?
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 I
-.n
26,926 i.
1 A
No.
2 0
Why did you subsequently relate this to the exam?
3 A
When the NBC came in and started the 4 investigation, it dealt with individuals passing papers 5 during the April exam, and I made the conclusion on my own 6 that it was very possible, or it is possible that they were 7 ref erring to those two individuals that were pa ssing 8 papers.
That is the only reason I made reference to it.
9 0
I am curious as to why you can remember the 10 precise location of the conversation, but you cannot 11 remember even the day on which the conversation occurred.
12 Can you explain that?
13 A
I am only assuming that that is the most probable
)
14 place to congregate in that hallway.
It is the only place 15 tha t is wide enough for people to stand in, more than one 16 person, really.
17 0
That is, between the coffee pot and the rest 18 room?
19 A
In the hallway between the coffee pot and the rest 20 room, if you ref er to the drawing of the classroom layout or 21 the training center layout.
22 (Pause.)
23 A
The drawing on the last page is not exactly 24 correct.
]
25 0
How should ~1t be corrected?
I
(
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
1 l
26,927 1
A There is an indication of a rest room on the
-s i : 1 2 bottom right-hand corner, an of fice and then a vall.
To th e 3 lef t of that wall in between the door is an office that was 4 lef t off.
That is my office.
5 0
And relative to your office, where did the 6 conversation occur?
7 A
The hallway makes a left turn and a right turn to 8 get around this wall.
Protruding out in that corner is the 9 water cooler.
It makes a rather large area where the water 10 cooler is, and that is where people usually congregated, in 11 that general area.
12 And the more times I think about this, the more I 13 remember.
And I remember coming out of my office to go to
)
14 the bathroom and passing some people in conversat.Lon, and 15 that happens to be the conversation that I refer to.
16 0
You remember coming out of your office.
Does that 17 indicate tha t that conversa tion would not hnve occurred on 18 the days that you took the exam?
19 A
Definitely not on the days I took the exam.
I was 20 in the exam room all day.
21 0
could it have occurred the first two days of the 22 exam?
23 A
No, it was after the exam.
24 0
It was after the exam.
Earlier you testified tha t
)
25 you could not recall whether it was during the exam or after i
i
)
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 t
I
26,928 1 the exam.
.]
2 A
If I did, it was in error.
It was after the exam, 3 some time after the exam, but within the last couple of 4 weeks -- the first couple of weeks after the exam.
5 0
Do you usually spend most of your days at work in 6 your office?
7 A
Yes.
8 0
So there is no further way to narrow down the time 9 period based on when you were in your office?
10 A
I do not believe it.
11 0
On Staff Exhibit 26, page 29, you also refer to 12 unconfirmed hearsay.
Are you referring to a different 13 instance there or the same instance?
14 A
That is the same instance.
15 0
In the last paragraph on page 39, it states that 16 you refused to reveal any specifics of the rumors you heard 17 or identify the individuals who were allegedly implicated?
18 Why did you refuse to answer that question?
19 A
I do not know.
Stupid, I think.
20 0
You were being interrogated by NRC investigators 21 regarding cheating at THI.
You are a member of the training 22 department.
You have stated it is part of your
]
23 responsibilities to help prevent cheating at TEI.
And you
..]
24 are telling me that you refused to answer a question 25 regarding rumors of cheating at TMI because you were
]
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE ' S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 i
26,929
'[')
1 stupid?
2 A
I did not like th e wa y the investigation was (g
3 conducted.
I did not like the questions that were being 4 asked.
They were so broad and vague that I could not give a 5 specific answer.
And I think out of lack of anything other 6 to say, I just told them-that I did not want to answer the 7 question.
8 I could not remember any specific instances of 9 rumors that were told me specifically concerning any 10 specific things tha t could have gone on during the 11 examina tion.
12 0
So you did not provide inf orma tion a vailable to i
l 13 you concerning potential cheating because you did not agree
)
14 with the manner in which the investigation was beine 15 conducted by the investigators?
16 A
No.
I did not provide any information because I 17 did not have any information.
18 0
Well, this says that you refused to reveal any 19 specifics.
20 A
That is his interpretation of me saying that I did 21 not have anything to say.
22 0
Well, didn't you provide more specifics later, on j
23 September 18 7
)
24 A
I had a little bit more time to think about it 25 between this conversation in Exhibit 26 and 27.
.b ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S W., WASHINGTON D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,930 t
I~1 1
0 So between July 29 and September 18, which are the 2 two dates of your interviews, you recalled with greater e
3 detail the specifics of the rumor you had heard?
Is that 4 your testimony?
5 A
Not exactly, no.
At the interview in July I did 6 not remember any specific rumors of cheating.
During the
~
7 July interview and the September interview, I determined 8 that it is possible or that it had been possible that the 9 two words that I had heard, "pa ssing papers," could have 10 been ref erring to passing papers during the exam.
11 And during the second interview in September I 12 indicated that to the gentleman that interviewed me.
13 0
You have testified that for the most part both of
,)
14 these interview accounts are accurate, and in both instances
~
15 you are quoted as referring to rumors you had heard as 16 " unconfirmed hearsay."
Now, earlier this af ternoon you 17 testified to me that they were the same incident.
18 Now you are testifying that in the first interview 19 you did not recall any specific rumors.
Which account is 20 correct?
21 A
The last account is most correct.
Th e September 2218 interview is most correct of what I remember taking 23 place.
()
24 0
Why did you state to me earlier that they were the 25 same incident in both interviews?
)
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 L.
26,931 1
1 A
I do not know.
2 0
So the testimony we have at this point is that
'i 3 some time between the two interviews you recalled another 4 rumor.
Why didn't you provide that information to the NBC?
5 A
What you just said is incorrect, sir.
Not another 6 rumor.
I recalled hearing something.
7 0
I am sorry, that is correct.
The rumor.
Why did 8 you wait until your second interview to provide this 9 inf ormation to the NRC?
10 (Pause.)
11 A
I do not know.
l 12 0
Didn't you feel that as a member of the training 13 department that it was your responsibility to provide this
,)
14 information to the NBC?
15 (Pause.)
16 A
The words " passing papers" which I remember 17 vaguely having hesrd to me do not constitute evidence of 18 cheating on an exam in themselves.
They may have been 19 talking about something. totally unrelated to an exam.
It 20 was a conversation which I had overheard in passing from my 21 office to the men's room and I did not feel that it was 22 pertinent to any investigation into alleged cheating on an 23 exam.
E) 24 0
You know that -- you knew that an investigation 25 had been conducted involving Mr. O and Mr. W in which those ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,932 I'l 1 individuals allegedly passed papers during an exam.
You 2 then heard the word --
you recalled hearing the words rj 3 " passing papers" being discussed by operators, and you did 4 not think that was important enough to be relevant to the 5 investigation?
6 A
I at no time thought that hearing part of a 7 conversation, which I recalled vaguely hearing two words 8 said, could in any way aid in any investigation into 9 cheating on an exam.
Otherwise I would have told them.
10 0
Before your September 18 interview with the NRC 11 investigators, did you ever provide information regarding 12 this conversation to corporate management?
13 (Pause.)
,-)
14 A
Could you restate that or could you ask that 15 question again?
I am not sure I follow you.
16 0
Certainly.
Prior to your September 18, 1981, 17 interview with the NRC, but after the time at which you 18 recalled the specifics of the conversation that you 19 overhe=rd, did you ever tell anyone in GPU management of 20 this conversation?
21 A
It was not until af ter the July interview that I 22 even thought that there was any importance in what I could 23 have possibly heard.
- i. )
24 0
My question was, af ter you remembered it and 25 realized that it may be important, but before you told the
)
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,933 O
1 NBC inve stigators, did you tell anyone in company 2 management?
3 (Pause.)
,q 4
A No, I do not believe I did.
5 Q
And is your response to why you did that the same 6 as why you did not provide it to the NRC staff, that you did 7 not think it was pertinent to the investigation?
8 A
I provided it to the NRC at the September 18th 9 ' interview.
Prior to that I did not think it had any 10 relevance to the investigation or that it would help it in 11 any way.
12 0
During the two days that you took the NRC exams, 13 what percentage of the time was the room proctored?
14 A
I do not know.
15 0
You do not know at all or you cannot give me a 16 specific answer?
17 A
I could not give you a specific answer as to 18 percentages of time the proctor was in the exam or out of 19 the exam room.
20 0
Did the proctor ever leave the room?
21 A
Yes.
22 0
Did the proctor leave for large periods of time?
23 A
I do not -- what is a large period of time?
15 24 minutes, an hour, two hours?
25 Q
More than five or ten minutes.
"}
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,934 "m
1 1
A Yes.
2 Q
- f. ore than an hour?
r")
3 A
I do not recall an hour having gone by that the 4 proctor was not in the room for at least a couple of 5 minutes.
6 0
Referring to the diagram of the training complex, 7 identif y, please, where you sat during the exams, the NRC 8 exams in April?
9 A
I sa t a t the table that has the numbers 9 and 10.
10 Q
Did you sit at position 9 or position 10, do you 11 recall?
12 A
Both times I was the only person at the table that 13 I remember.
')
14 0
Were you facing the door to the room?
~'
15 A
I was facing the wall, yes.
16 Q
Could you see whenever someone came in or out of 17 the room?
18 A
It would -- I could, yes.
I could see someone 19 coming or going.
20 Q
So you were in a position to see whenever the 21 proctor entered the room or lef t the room?
22 A
Yes.
1 23 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
What percentage of the time
' )
24 would you say the proctor was in the room durire the SRO t
25 exam?
']
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINTA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
26,935
[I 1
THE WITNESS:
A very rough guess would be r
2 somewhere around 50 percent.
I did not make it a practice
- 3 3 of keeping track of anyone's comings or goings.
I had an 4 exam to take.
So he could have gone for an hour and it may i
j 5 have appeared to me to be five minutes.
I was very busy.
6 So I did not watch my watch or keep track of time.
7 So I could -- 50 percent is just a wild guess.
8 BY MR. ADLER:
(Resuming) 9 0
During the exam did it bother you that the proctor 10 was away from the room for such long periods of time?
11 A
The periods of time or the lengths of time that he 12 was away from the room really did not mean anything to me.
13 The f act that he was not in the room at several times when I 14 had questions to ask bothered me, because we had to go -- or 15 I had to leave the room to get an answer to a question that 16 I would have been able to ask if the proctor had been in the 17 room.
18 0
Did you ever leave the room with Er. P to ask a 19 question of the proctors?
20 A
No.
21 0
I asked because you began your response by saying 22 " w e. "
23 A
Er. P and I were the only ones in the room.
The l
24 reason I said "we" was any time either one of us had a 25 question we had to go find the proctor.
Either I had to go ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
s 26,936 II 1 find the proctor f or a que stion that I came up with or.that 2 I had specifically on the exam or, if he came up with a
'*)
3 question, he would have to go find the proctor.
4 0
Did you ever agree among the two of you that 5 someone should go ask the proctor a question?
6 A
No.
We did not discuss anything during the exam.
7 0
Do you remember Mr. P ever going to ask the 8 proctor a question ?
9 A
I am totally unaware of Mr. P's activities during 10 tha t exa m.
He could have gotten up to go to the, bathroom or 11 whatever.
I do not know what he did during tha t exam or any l
12 other time, either in the room or out of the room.
13 0
If the proctor was out of the room, that would
~)
14 leave only yourself and Mr. P in the room, and y5u were 15 right next to the door.
Wouldn't you have noticed if the 16 only other person in the room got up and lef t?
{'
17 A
Certainly.
18 Q
But you are stating that you do not know whether 19 or not he left the room to ask the proctor a question?
f20 A
That is what I am stating.
21 0
Did you discuss the lack of proctoring in'- the room' 22 with Mr. P at any time?
l 23 A
Not that I recall.
24 0
Any time after the examination?
j s
x 25 A
Not that I recall.
\\[
'S x
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE, S W., W ASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
26 937 0
1 1
0 One of the NRC investigators has testified, as you 2 know, that you asked -- that Er. P said that you asked him a
/.]
3 question during the exam.
Is that true?
4 A
Absolutely not.
~
5 HR. ADLER I have no more questions.
Thank you.
6 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Let's take a break.
7 (Recess.)
8 9
10 11 12 13 e-)
\\
14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 st2 -
\\
i 23 3
24 25
)
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,938 l')
1 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
The hearing will come to order.
2 BY MS. BRADFORD:
3 0
Mr. Husted, my name is Louise Bradford and I r+g 4 represen t TMI A.
Could you refer to Staff Exhibit 26 and 5 Enclosure 1 of that exhibit?
The tenth page into that 6 enclosure.
7 JUDGE MILHOLLINs Could you identify the enclosure 8 for us?
9 MS. BRADFORD:
It is th~e file --
10 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
It begins with a handwritten 11 statement?
12 MS. BRADFORD:
Yes, handwritten memo.
13 JUDGE MiLHOLLIN:
Okay. -
14 (Pause.)
15 BY MS. BRADFORD: (Resuming) 16 0
Do you have that page, Mr. Husted ?
17 A
I believe this is it (indicating).
18 0
Yes.
19 A
Yes.
20 0
This is an administrative form from the Training 21 Department; is that correct?
22 A
Yes, it is.
23 C
Do you see halfway down there it says " Instructor
)
24 a ssigned"?
25 A
Yes.
)
l ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,939 O
1 Q
And that is your name, is that correct?
2 A
Yes, it is.
q 3
0 Were you the instructor for Mr. VV for this 4 category in 1979, do you recall?
5 A
This is a blank. I made up a blank form that was 6 sent to all the people in concern of this area.
My name is 7 on there only in that I sent it.
I got the material 8 together, the study ma terial, th e test material.
Whatev'er 9 was attached to this was gathered by myself and mailed out, 10 and I was a collection point f or the material.
11 Q
Would you turn seven more pages into this 12 enclosure?
There is another administrative form, and also 13 on that administrative f orm your name appea rs.
,b, 14 A
Yes.
15 0
And then again four more pages and another 16 administrative f orm, and again your name appears on tha t 17 f orm.
18 A
Yes, it does.
19 Q
There is one more exam, which is two more pager 20 into the enclosure.
Now, you have said that this 21 administrative f orm. you were the collection point for the 22 exams; is that correct?
23 A
I gathered the material which was to be sent, 24 attached the appropriate admin sheet or these four sheets 25 tha t we have looked at and mailed them.
Th e gentlemen were p.
f ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,940 I~3 1 to send it back to me and then I would distribute it to the 2 appropriate instructor in the department for grading Q
3 purposes.
4 Q
And was there a time limit, do you recall, on 5 these exams within which they must be returned?
6 A
There is a date placed on each one.
It was to be 7 returned back to the department by that date.
Whether it 8 was specifically adhered to, I do not recall.
9 0
Was it your responsibility to contact the person 10 to whom the exam was sent if that person was late in 11 returning their exam?
12 A
The way this was handled, as I best remember, I 13 periodically checked a list of delinquent returns and
,,..)
14 reported findings to my supervisor, and he contacted the
~
15 individuals.
16 Q
And if after you had reported the findings and 17 your supervisor had contacted the individual and still the 18 exam was not returned, was there a follow-up that you were 19 involved in ?
20 A
Not that I remember.
21 Q
You would not attempt to contact the person again.
22 A
I did not contact the people. I told my supervisor 23 and he contacted the individuals that were return papers 24 late or not back on time.
I was just a collection point, I
l 25 mor or less, in the department to handle the paperwork.
You i
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, l
400 VI AGINI A AVE.. S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20074 (202) 554 2345
26,941 1 know, paperwork comes to me and I cive it to people to grade 2 and indicate that it has been returned.
If it had not been 9
3 returned by a specific date -- as an example, each Friday --
4 I would check the list to see what has been returned and 5 what has not been returned and inform my supervisor that 6 certain individuals had not returned their papers, and then 7 he would contact them.
8 0
And if it still was not returned, did you 9 recontact your supervisor?
10 A
Yes.
I do not recall at what frequency I checked, 11 but I remember periodically informing him that things had 12 not been returned by certain individuals, and he would 13 contact them again.
14 0
Do you recall these four exams, Mr. Husted?
'15 A
No.
I handed out 80-some exams. I do not remember 16 the number but I remember it being quite a few.
17 0
Ok a y.
18 (Pauce.)
19 Earlier in response to a question f rom Mr. Adler 20 you indicated that you left the exam room in order to have 21 some questions answered, to find the proctor and have 22 questions answered.
Do you recall how many times you left?
23 (Pause.)
,a 24 A
I can only think of one time that I went to find f
25 the proctor, and in f act I did not go to the proctor, I went
,)
I ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 vtRGINI A AVE., S W., WASHINGTON. D,C-20024 (202) 554-2345
26,942
'O 1 to Mr. Wilson who was in the room just outside the room I 2 was in and asked him the question.
I did not go to the q
3 proctor that was proctoring the exam.
4 0
Which exam was that, the RO or the SRO?
5 A
I believe it was the SR0.
6 Q
Did you take your exam with you?
7 A
No.
8 0
Do you recall Mr. P leaving the room?
9 A
Not specifically.
10 0
You do not recall him leaving to seek an answer to 11 a question?
12 A
I do not recall him leaving f or a ny reason.
He 13 may have left.
14 0
Do you recall if the door to the exam room. was 15 closed most of the time?
16 A
It was left open all the time.
17 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
I have a question.
18 Is it your testimony that Mr. Bruce Wilson was not 19 proctoring your exam?
20 THE WITNESS:
The reactor operator exam, I do not 21 recall exactly who was proctoring it.
I just do not 22 recall.
The seniors' exam, most of the time there was a 23 proctor in the room.
I believe it was Mr. Wilson.
q U
24 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
I thought I heard you say that 25 when you lef t the room you went to find the proctor but the ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
400 VIAGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
26,943
'eI 1 proctor was not available so you vent to see Mr. Wilson.
2 Isn ' t that what you said?
f"j 3
THE WITNESS:
Well, there were different proctors 4 at different times.
I really did not keep track of the 5 proctors.
6 JUDGE MILHOLLIN4 I do not understand your 7 testimony.
Why didn't you just go looking for Wilson?
Why 8 did you go looking for somebody else?
9 THE WITNESSt I went to Mr. Wilson who was in the 10 room.
The one time I remember going out of the room to find 11 a proctor to help me with a question on the exam, I went to 12 the room indicated as BB 's office in which Mr. Wilson was in 13 that room, and I asked Mr. Wilson the question, or
~
14 clarification on a specific question.
15 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Why did you say you vent looking 16 for the proctor and you could not find the proctor, so then 17 you vent to Mr. Wilson?
18 THE WITNESS:
I did not go looking anywhere other 19 t h a n -- I w en t out of that classroom into the BB's office or 20 to the doorway to BB 's office and asked Mr. Wilson the 21 question.
I do not know if Mr. Wilson was the proctor that 22 day or Mr. Haverdekamp or anyone else.
I do not 23 specifically know v5o the proctor was at the time I went s-
?"
24 seeking help.
25 JUDGE MILHOLLIN4 Was it a burden for you get up t
b ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S W. WASHINGTON. 0.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 1
J
26,944
- 3 1 and go see Hr. Wilson?
Is that what your testimony is?
2 THE WITNESS:
I would not consider it a burden. It em) 3 is nice to get up and stretch once in a while when you are 4 taking a nine-hour long exam or a six-hour exam.
5 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
You said you had to go look for 6 the proctor.
7 THE WITNESS:
I did not have to go look very far.
8 I went to BB's of fice.
That is where he wa s.
I knew that 9 is where Mr. Wilson was. I am not sure if at that time of 10 day Mr. Wilson was the proctor for that room or if the other 11 gentleman was the proctor for that room.
I just do not know 12 who was the assigened proctor to that room.
1 13 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Who passed out the exam?
~
14 THE WITNESS:
Mr. Wilson and his assistant.
15 (Pause.)
16 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Was there ever a time you vent 17 looking for a proctor and could not find one?
18 THE WITNESS:
I only went once and tha t was when I 19 f ound Mr. Wilson in BB 's of fice.
20 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Did you know Mr. Wilson was in 21 BB 's office during the time you were taking the exam?
22 THE WITNESS:
Yec.
23 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Go ahead, Ms. Bradfor'd.
r3
'J 24 MS. BRADFORD:
Thank you.
25 BY MS. BRADFORD: (Resuming)
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,945
.[)
1 0
Did you take the full time available to you to 2 vrite your exam?
r]
3 A
I do not recall on the reactor operator's exam 4 exactly how long it took me.
On the senior reactor 5 operator's exam I believe I finished about ten minutes 6 bef ore the time was up.
The times are written right on the 7 exams.
If you --
8 0
When you completed your RO exam were there still 9 people 'in the room?
10 A
Yes.
11 0
Did you return to your office when you had 12 completed your exam?
13 A
I returned to my office and left.
~
14 0
Do you recall if Mr. U was still in your office?
15 A
No, I do not.
16 0
Do you recall if anyone was in your office?
17 (Pause.)
18 A
I do not recall if anyone was there, no.
19 0
Did you return to your office on both days after 20 both exams?
21 A
I returned to my office, locked it up and left.
22 0
If you locked it up --
23 A
Locked the door.
24 0
Yes.
j 25 A
Yes.
.)
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,946
~<I 1
0 Can you remember if somebody had to leave before 2 you locked your office?
q 3
A Not specifically, no. I do not recall if anyone 4 was in the room in my office when I completed taking the 5 exams on either day.
We.were told when we completed the 6 exam we could have the rest of the day off, so I wanted to 7 take advantage of that.
8 (Pause.)
9 MS. BRADFORD:
I do not have any more questions.
10 Thank you.
11 BY MR. AAMODT:
12 0
We met before, one Sunday evening or whenever it 13 was, Mr. Husted.
I am Norman Aamodt.
,, )
14 A
Yes, I remember.
15 0
How long have you known Mr. Ward of ICE?
16 A
To this day I do not know Mr. Ward of ICE.
17 0
You do not.
Do you have any long-time personal 18 f riends among the ICE staff?
19 A
I do not know anyone personally from the NRC at 20 a ll.
21 0
Did anyone from NBC ever question you about your 22 taking the SRO exam with Operator P, that is, question you 23 relative to the relationship between the two of you in that 24 exam room?
25 (Pause.)
,J:+
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S W., WASHINGTON. D.C-20024 (202) 554 2345
26,947
)
1 A
I believe when I was interviewed by the NRC the 2 first time in July, I made a drawing on a blackboard they
"')
3 had in the office to show them the relationship of the 4 tables and the chairs in that room.
I may have said 5 something to him at that time, this is where I sat during 6 this specific exam, and you know, to give an example, but I 7 was not queried as to where I sat or where Mr. P sat that I 8 can recall.
9 Q
Did you at that time make any allegation relative 10 to P's soliciting any information from you?
11 A
No.
12 JUDGE MILHOLLIN Did P ever solicit any 13 inf ormation f rom you ?
,)
14 THE WITNESSa No, sir.
15 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Did anyone?
16 THE WITNESS:
No, sir.
17 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Did you ever provide any 18 information to anyone?
19 THE WITNESS:
Concerning exam questions?
No.
20 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Did you ever see anyone cheating 21 on an exam?
22 THE WITNESS:
On an exam?
Since the time I have 23 worked at Three Mile Island, or the NRC exam specifically?
24 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
First in general.
25 THE WITNESS:
In general I have warned people
')
l l
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
26,948
'l 1 taking auxiliary -- When I was an instructor in the 2 nonlicensed operator training group, I administered a weekly q
3 exam.
I specifically recall warning someone, but not during 4 my functioning as a licensed operator and instructor.
I do 5 not recall ever having warned anyone of cheating or the 6 possibilities of it.
7 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
L.d you ever see anyone cheating 8 on an NRC exam?
9 THE WITNESS:
No, sir.
10 BY MR. AAMODT (Resuming) 11 0
Did the ICE ever discuss Ward's perception of P's
/
V 12 allegation that you solicited inforiaation during the April 13 SRO exam ?
~
14 A
No.
15 0
Did anyone in the NRC ever discuss Mr. Ward's 16 comments with you?
17 A
The first I heard of Mr. Ward's comments was when 18 I called and talked to Ms. Gottlieb.
19 0
You say you called?
20 A
I returned her call.
She called me and I was out 21 of my of fice, so I returned her call.
22 0
When was that?
23 A
I do not remember the specific date.
,CT
^J 24 0
Was that very recent?
I do not recall the 25 stipula tion early.
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE. S.W., WASHINGTON. D C 20024 (202) 554 2345 l
26,949 7) 1 MR. BLAKEs The stipulation was not with regard to 2 time, but it was the evening when Mr. Ward and others, as I q
3 recall it -- it was in the intervening time between when Mr.
4 Ward lef t the stand and was carried over as a witness until 5 the next day.
And I an informed by Ms. Gcttlieb it was in 6 the morning before he returned as a witness.
7 IHE WITNESS:
It was 8s30 in the morning.
I 8 remember now.
It was 8430 in the morning, was written on 9 the phone message.
10 BY MR. AAMODTs (Resuming) 11 Q
That was the first time you heard of it?
12 A
Yes.
13 Q
Has the Training Department ever recommended that
~
14 a candidate for the licensing exam not be certified to sit 15 for that exam, to your knowledge?
16 A
Not prior to the October exam that I remember.
17 Q
To what extent did your certification depend on 18 the intensive training after the ATTS exam, between the ATTS 19 exam and the NRC exam?
20 A
My personal certification?
21 Q
The department certification.
Was that a key 22 element?
l 23 A
I do not understand the question.
24 Q
All of the candidates sat for ti.c ATTE exam.
Some 25 f ailed some categories.
Before they could be certified to
)
ALDER $oN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
- ~?
e- - - - ' - '
--r v
t g
y y--
+ - - -
--i--i#---g
--M+<-etem-=
-*'-g--m-*e-
26,@50
[)
1 sit for the NRC exam, the Training Department determined 2 that they had -- were now capable in the areas where they
)
3 had shown deficiency in the ATTS exam.
4 To what extent did you rely on the intensive 5 training to determine that they were indeed suitable to be 6 certified?
7 A
I do not know how to answer that other than to say 8 the determination was made as a group effort by the Training 9 Department and the Operations Department, and the Training
~
10 Department's input came from the instructors that taught the 11 intensified program to the individuals.
Our comments and 12 recommendations were given to the supervisor of licensed 13 training and he carried them to thnt meeting.
14 0
How did the instructor determine that a candidate 15 had adequately mastered the material?
Was there an 16 objective measure rather than a quantitative measure rather 17 than "I think he is good, I think he knows it"?
I am 18 thinking specifically of the tests that are administered 19 af t er wa rd, the results of which we received in discovery.
20 It might be appropriate to move these into evidence here.
21 (Counsel handing document to witness and parties.)
22 (Witness reviewing documents.)
1 23 MR. AAHODT4 I think the very beginning is another
)
24 question that we asked Mr. Husted, but you can see where 25 that list with the 100 percent and 90 percent a ppears.
That ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,951 O
1 is the section that we are concerned about.
We just had the 2 covering page to identify the document.
-]
3 (Witness reviewing document.)
4 Is this not a summary of the results of tests 5 given to candidates on categories during the intensive 6 traing period, on categories which they failed on the ATTS 7 exam?
You would so stipulate, wouldn't you, Ernie, that was 8 your response to us ?
9 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
You have to address your remarks
~
10 through me.
11 MR. AAMODT:
I am sorry.
May I ask attorney for 12 Licensee to stipula te that they are?
13 MR. BLAKE:
That they are what?
14 MR. AAMODT That these - are the results, the test 15 grades that were obtained by candidates in the intensive 16 training program on subject material they failed in the ATTS 17 exam.
18 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
By "these" you are ref errin g to?
19 MR. AAMODT The list of Category B, 100 percent, 20 and so on.
21 JUDGE MILHOLLIN :
You are referring to the 22 response to Request No. 167 23 ER. AAMODT:
Yes, where we ask what grade each 24 individual would have received on this work.
25 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
I see that, and there is a list
)
f l
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,952 1
l J
1 of letters, and then next to the letters there is a list of 2 sections, and following the list of sections there is a list q
3 of numbers, grades.
4 MR. AAMODTs Grades.
5 JUDGE MILHOLLIN4 And it continues ever onto a 6 page which has 11 at the top.
7 MR. AAMODTa Yes, and goes through --
8 JUDGE MILHOLLINs And then there is a B part of 9 tnat same response to Request No. 16.
10 MR. AAMODTs Yes.
11 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Is that what you are referring 12 to?
13 ER. AAMODTs Yes, sir, and the information we are 14 particularly concerned with is the list beginning with A and 15 ending with OD.
16 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Your request through me to Mr.
17 Blake is whether Mr. Blake would stipulate that these 18 numbers and sections and letters are grades achieved by 19 operators during the intensive training prog 1am you have 20 described.
21 MR. AAMODT4 Yes.
22 JUDGE MILHOLLINs With respect to sections whien 23 these operstors f ailed on the ATTS examination in April of h
24 1981.
25 MR. AAMODT Yes, sir.
)
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGWl A AVE., S W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,953 C
1 (Counsel for Licensee conferring.)
2 MR. BLAKE:
Judge Milho111n, I do not know whether q
3 I recall exactly what the characterization of this is. It is 4 also a little hard.
We have not even asked the witness 5whether or not he has ever seen this piece of paper before 6 or whether or not he is f amiliar with it or whether he knows 7 or whether I could ask him if it is accurate.
It is, in 8 f act, some pages out of a discovery response which we made, 9 and I am informed that it was to the best of our knowledge 10 what the information was in response to this at the time it 11 was submitted.
12 I do not know whether within the characterization 13 of the material what you are'really asking me to stipulate
~~)
14 to is the word " test."
15 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
I am not asking you to stipulate 16 to anything, Mr. Blake.
17 MR. BLAKE:
That is fair.
I do not know whether 18 wha t I am being asked to stipulate to this was the word 19 these are test grades. I do not see the word " test."
20 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
I think the question to you --
21 HR. BLAKE:
The request or the response.
22 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
I think the question to you 23 through me f rom Mr. Aamodt is whether you would stipulate 24 tha t these numbers, which a re given in percentages, are test 25 scores for the operators designated by letters on the ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,954 3
1 sections which appear.
2 MR. BLAKE:
And?
e')
3 JUDGE MILHOLLIN And I have not heard your 4 response.
5 MR. BLAKE I do not have the knowledge before me 6 to know whether or not I can stipulate to whether they were 7 test scores in the normal parlance of " test."
8 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
All righ t.
So the answer to the 9 question is?
10 MR. BLAKE:
No.
11 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
The answer is no.
12 MR. AAMODT We can get that another way, Judge 13 Milhollin.
,.)
~
14 I would like to enter into evidence this whole 15 document, but I am particularly concerned with Request No.
16 16.
Let me read "A."
We requested of the Licensee to 17 provide by individual the sections which were reviewed, what 18 section was turned in, the Training Department review, and 19 analysis of the operator's review of the sections and what 20 grade each individual would have received on this work if it 21 had been taken and graded as an audit.
That is "A,"
and 22 that is what we have here.
)
23 Licensee responded to that request with this
)
)
24 inf ormation, and I would like now to have -- What I am 25 trying to determine is the quantitative measure whereby the ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S W.. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,955 e) 1 Training Department certified that individuals were 2 adequately trained to sit for the NRC examination.
This is 3 the only quantitative measure with which we have been 4 provided, and what I ha ve been d riving to with the witness 5 is to determine whether or not he used this quantitative 6 measure in certifying.
7 JUDGE MILHOLLIN Why don't you ask him whether he 8 did or not, and then we will see whether there is an 9 objection to the question.
10 BY MR. AAMODTs (Resuming) 11 0
Were these results a factor that you used in 12 determining whether or not a candidate was qualified to sit 13 for the NBC exam?
. )
14 A
Personally, no.
15 0
Did the Department, or don't you know?
16 A
I do not know.
17 Q
All right.
18 (M r. and Mrs. Aamodt conferring.)
19 MR. AAMODTs Then I want these entered into the 20 record, simply stipulated that they are a response from the 21 Licensee.
22 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Licensee, I think, has said no 23 to that request.
)
24 h'R. BLAKE:
The stipulation is only that we 25 responded to discovery and that these were provided.
I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINTA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
9 26,956
$E) 1 MR. AAMODT4 Now 2
MR. BLAKEs I quite frankly --
-)
3 JUDGE MILHOLLINa Now the question is whether you 4
4 vill stipulate.
5 MR. BLAKE4 I will stipulate to the fact that 6 these appear to be copies of a discovery response which we 7 gave.
I do not know what the request is. I do not 8
JUDGE MILHOLLINs I do not think that is the 9 request.
10 Would you be satisfied with that?
11 MR. AAMODT Dropping out the words " appear to 12 b e. "
These are indeed a Licensee response to discovery.
13 MR. BLAKEs Sure, excerpts from discovery
)
14 response. Yes.
15 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Licensee will stipulate that 16 these pages represent an excerpt from a response.to a 17 discovery request.
18
( Mr. and Mrs. Aa modt conferring. )
19 MR. AAMDDTs And we also want them entered into 20 evidence, that we can use them -- that Mr. Husted has been 21 questioned on them, regardless of what his response is.
Is 22 tha t all right?
23 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Well, you can move that they be
)
24 received in evidence, and we will see whether someone 25 objects to the motion.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) $54 2345
26 957 0
$I 1
MR. AAMODT4 I move they be received in evidence.
2 HR. BLAKEs And I object. I do not know what the
'{}
3 offer is that is being made. I do not know what the purpose 4 is.
I do not have any problem with the authenticity of 5 these couple of pages.
I do not know what the reason is 6 that they are being put in.
There is nobody here to ask 7 questions about them, for goodness sakes.
8 MR. AAMODTs Judge Milhollin, I had hoped to ask 9 M r. H usted.
I thought that he was directly involved with 10 this, and I had hoped to pursue the f act that whereas all of 11 these candidates got such good scores, a number of them 12 f ailed subsequently in the NRC exam.
13 ER. BLAKE:
I have to point out, Judge Milho111n,
_.)
14 that these discovery requests were' indeed p rovided, 15 a pparently from the first page of the three that have been 16 tossed out here, on October 28th.
We had training witnesses 17 a ppea r here.
Those witnesses, I believe -- I would have to 18 check our references, but one of them, I think, signed an 19 affidavit in support of this material, and they were 20 certainly available to be questioned about these at the time 21 they appeared.
And to f ault now this witness because he is 22 not familiar with them is just not 23 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Let me make a couple of 24 remarks.
It is permissible, Mr. Aamodt, to cross-examine a 25 witness on material which is not evidence.
However, if you
.0 ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S W WASHINGTON. O C 20024 (202) 554 2345 4
26,958 1 vant material to be evidence, then either it has to be 2 accepted by stipulation or somebody has to sponsor it.
3 Nobody is sponsoring this information.
So if Mr. Blake q
4 objects to it, I have to sustain the objection.
5 MR. AAMODT Judge Milhollin, let me just clarify 6 that the reason we had hoped we could enter this now is that 7 we had attempted at the time tha t that witness who had 8 sponsored this -- who had signed the affidavit for this 9 discovery request was present, we attempted to bring this up to and it was overruled at that time.
We never understood 11 that, so we were attempting because we wanted it for our 12 findings to enter it at this time.
That was the reason, and 13 I am sorry to have to put that on you now.
[)
14 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Well, you have asked this 15 witness whether this witness used this material.
The 16 witness said no.
17 MR. AAMODT:
All right.
18 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
You asked the witness whether 19 this vitness knows if the Training Department used the 20 material, and he said no, he does not know.
I do not see 21 how this material is relevant to this witness ' testimon y.
22 MR. AAMODT No.
23 MRS. AAMODTt I agree.
24 ER. AAMODT4 We a gree with tha t.
25 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Okay.
b ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,959 II) 1 BY MR. AAMODTs (Resuming) 2 Q
I would like, then, to pursue the question how did
/")
3 you determine that the people who received intensive 4 training did master the subject material?
5 (Pause.)
6 A
After and during each session of intensive 7 training, question and answer periods were conducted, and 8 based on the individuals responses to the questions.
9 Q
Were these oral?
10 A
Yes.
Based on their response to the questions 11 being better and more correct at the end of the training 12 period than they were at the beginning of the trianing 13 period, we determined that they had mastered the information.
14 0
In your opinion, did you do an adequate job in 15 tha t determina tion in view of the percentage of people who 16 took this accelerated test and subsequently failed the 17 examination in the categories that they had the intensive i
18 training ?
19 A
That is an awful broad question to answer.
1 20 0
It is difficult.
21 A
In my personal opinion, I think the pass-fail
]
22 percentages were f airly good.
l 23 0
Are you aware of any changes in your training j
24 program now to determine whether or not people who need 25 upgrading successf ully master the material in the test l
1 ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S W WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,960
$1 1 training period?
2 (Pause.)
I know i
<]
3 A
I cannot respond to that. I do not know 4 there are changes that have taken place but I do not know of 5 any that are relevant to in tensive training programs that 6 are being conducted right now.
7 0
Thank you.
8 (Mr. and Mrs. Aamodt conferring.)
9 Next I would like to ask you one follow-on 10 question f rom Ms. Bradford questions.
11 You mentioned that when you lef t the room to get 12 h el p, that you found Mr. Wilson in BB's office.
13 A
Yes, sir.
... )
14 Q
Then subsequently you said that you knew that he 15 was in BB's office.
How did you know that?
16 A
That is the office that was being used to review 17 the exam.
18 19 20 21 22 23 e
24 25
)
1 ALDERSoN REPoHTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VI AGINI A AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,961 9
1 Q
All righ t, and that same office was used to review 2 the exam every day?
q 3
A I only recall that is where it was being done at 4 the time that I needed help.
5 0
That day?
6 A
Yes.
I am not sure about the other days.
7 0
Did you know that before you went in to take your 8 exam?
9 A
After the exams were handed out, Mr. Wilson lef t to the roca and went into BB's office.
I knew that BB and Mr.
11 Wilson and some other people were going to be reviewing the 12 exam that day.
13 0
All right.
14 (Mr. and Mrs. Aamodt conferring.)
~'
l 15 I now have some follow-on questions from Mr.
16 Adler's questions.
You said that when you proctored the 17 exams that you gave you were there about 50% of the time.
18 A
Quizzes.
19 Q
Yes.
Did you proctor all the quizzes that you 20 gave ?
i 21 (Pause.)
22 A
I could not state that I proctored all the quizzes 23 tha t I gave.
mJ 24 o
A11 righ t.
Were your -- the quizzes that you gave 25 always closed book?
I --
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S W., WASHINGTON. D C. 20024 (202) $54 2345
26,962 1
(Pause.)
2 A
To the best of my knowledge, the only book that (t}
3 was ever allowed to be used as a reference book was the 4 Combustion Engineering steam tables which were needed for 5 calculations.
6 JUDGE MILHOLLINs Did you ever allow the examinees 7 in these tests, quizzes, to take the quiz with them and turn 8 it in later?
By with them, I mean other than in the
~
9 examination room.
10 THE HITNESS:
Yes.
11 JUDGE HILHOLLINt What were the instructions given 12 in these cases to the examinees with respect to use of 13 materials and with respect to the cooperation which they
]
14 micht receive from other examinees?
15 IHE WITNESS I do not recall any specific 16 instructions that I could have given.
I re member one 17 specific instance where I gave a shift supervisor and a 18 shift foreman a qui: to take because they had to be out of 19 the -- they had a meeting to go to.
And so, they came back 20 to the training center after their meeting and I gave them a 21 copy of the quiz to take with them and do the quiz and then 22 mail back to me.
I do not recall any specific instructions 23 given at that time.
)
24 BY MR. AAMODT (Resuming):
25 0
I would like you to turn to your deposition on ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W.. WASHINGTON, D C. 20024 (202) $$4 2345
26,063
- i
'D 1 page 13.
In response to a question by Mr. Adler, you said 2 that you observed some cases of cheating on the quizzes that
/?g 3 you -- on weekly quizzes.
4 JUDGE MILHOLLINs Could you identif y this?
5 MR. BLAKE Do you have a copy of the deposition?
6 MR. AAMODTs Oh, I am sorry, your deposition.
Do 7 you not have a copy of your deposition?
8 HR. BLAKEs Is that with the green binder?
9 THE WITNESSs This is Mr. U.
10 HR. ADLERs Judge Milho111n, --
11 (Counsel handing document to witness.)
12 MR. BLAKE Whose copy is this?
13 BY MB. AAMODT (Resuming):
14 Q
Let me take you first to -- let me take you first 15 to page 11.
I guess about 9 lines down you say, "The tests 16 tha t I administered were always closed-book."
Then I would 17 like you to turn to page 13.
Do you adopt that as your 18 testimony, on page 11, "always closed book."
19 (Witness reviewing document.)
20 A
That is what I said.
21 Q
All right.
Didn 't you contradict tha t statement i
22 today ?
I 23 A
I believe the context of the conversation at that
)
24 time was referring to reference material.
25 Q
Isn't that what open book is, is bringing in
)
l l
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S W WASHINGTON. O C. 20024 (202) $$4 2345
\\
.u 26,064 I[I 1 ref erence material?
s 2
A We -- I do not recall administering any exams e')
3 where reference material was allowed to be used.
I do 4 recall administering qui==es in which a Combustion 5 Engineering steam table was allowed to be used.
I do not i
\\
6 consider a steam table a reference material.
7 0
All right.
8 (Mr. and Mrs. Aamodt conferring.)
9 Would you note where Mrs. Aamodt begins to 10 question you about the middle of the page, the question is, 11 could I --
12 JUDGE MILHOLLINa Page 11?
13 HR. AAMODTa No, 13.
.)
14 BY MR. AAMODT (Resuming):
15 0
could I just ask if you found tha t someone had 16 cheated on one of the weekly quizzes, what would you have 17 done?
You responded, "I would have informed my supervisor.
18 If I were administering them, I would have picked up his 19 exam and he would have been sent to his supervisor."
Is 20 that not in contrast with what you told Mr. Adler earlier?
i 21 (Witness reviewing document.)
22 A
It says, "If I were administering an exam or the
)
.)
23 e xa m. "
We handled -- we are talking about two difiorent s
1 1
)
24 things here.
We are talking about weekly quizzes and exams.
25 0
No, the question -- the question relates to weekly i
e-t A
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINI A AVE., $.W., WASHINGTON. D C. 20024 (202) 654 2345
s 26o965
(
s e.
s 1 quizzes.
And then you used the word " exam" afterward, but
~
2 A
Okay.
To clarify my sta te men t, if I were s
^
3 administering a weekly qui and I thought someone was 4 cheating, what I personally would have considered cheating, 5 then I would inform my supervisor and get his guidance.
6 My next statement is, "If I were administering an 7 exam or the exam,..." indicating that if it were an 8 examination 'to determine advancement to another 9 qualification, to determine certification for taking an NRC 10 exam, if I were administering en examination and he was 11 cheating and I caught him cheating, I would pick up his 12 paper and send him to his supervisor.
13 Q
All right.
14 (M r. and Mrs. Aamodt conferring.)
15 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Do you have much more, Mr.
16 Aamodt?
17 MR. AAMODTa I would say perhaps 15 minutes.
18 JUDGE MILHOLLINs Are you on the second page of 19 your outline?
20 MR. AAMODT I am finishing -- I have one more 21 question relative to f ollow-on from Mr. Adler 's and then I 22 go on to the last item on that.
I think it will be worth 23 doing.
.)
24 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Well, I am not so sure.
Go 25 ahead, but I really wonder whether we are getting very far.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY, WC, f
400 VIRGINIA ave., S.W.. WASHINGTON. D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,966 1 Go ahead.
2 BY MR. AAMODT (Resuming):
3 0
All righ t. 'When Mr. Adler asked you why you 4 waited until the second interview to provide the information 5 relative to passing papers, you answered, "I do not know."
6 Is that correct?
Is that still your response to that?
7 A
Yes.
8 0
on your first interview, who was present during 9 the interview?
10 A
The only one who I remember by name was Mr. Paul y
11 Christman.
12 0
Fron the --
13 A
From company management.
'l
~
14 0
Yes.
In the second interrogation of you, who was 15 present f rom the company?
16 A
No one.
17 0
Why was that?
18 A
I do not know specifically why they were not 19 allowed to be there.
20 0
At that time, that was the time tha t you discussed 21 this matter of passing papers for the first time.
22 A
Yes.
23 0
Did you at that time talk also about other matters
.)
24 that did not appear in the report; for example, any 25 correspondence between yourself and Mr. P?
l
' },
l ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 L
26,967 73 1
A This staff item 27 covers what I remember being 2 discussed d uring tha t interview.
3 0
All right.
~]
4 (Mr. and Mrs. Aamodt conferring.)
5 Did you say anything in that interview that could 6 have been used by Mr. Matakas in his discussions with Mr. P?
/
7 A
I do not know if Mr. Matakas had any discussions 8 with Mr. P or not.
I 9
Q Did you in any way discuss Mr. P at that time?
10 A
No, not that I recall.
11 (Mr. and Mrs. Aamodt conferring.)
12' O
Did Mr. Matakas make notes of tha t interview?
13 A
Because of the problems that I had with the J
~
14 statement made in staf f report 26 by the NBC, I insisted 15 that Mr. Matakas write down every question that he asked me, 16 and allow me to read the question and then I stated my 17 answer, ane he wrote my answer down verbatim, and I agreed 18 to the answer as it was written down.
19 O
Do you know where that document is?
Have we seen 20 it?
21 A
The only thing I have seen concerning that 22 interview is this report, number 27, here.
23 Q
But the actual document that you signed does not
)
24 appear in testimony anywhere here.
You have not seen it?
25 A
I have not seen it.
I assumed --
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, l
400 VIRGINI A AVE, S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 j
i
26,968
~,%
')
1 0
We have not seen it.
2 A
I assumed that Mr. Matakas used that to write this c'g 3 report, and this is a summary of the questions and answers 4 that I gave.
5 0
So what -- so this, then, is an interview where 6 your signed statement does not appear and where no statement 7 by the licensee appears either.
And the only statement we 8 have from the licensee is --
9' (Mr. and Mrs. Aamodt conferring.)
10 MR. AAMODT:
I have no further questions.
All 11 right, just a minute.
I guess we do.
12 MRS. AAMODT:
I am sorry.
It is hard to prepare 13 some of these things.
)
14 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
I am going to let you ask one 15 question.
16 MRS. AAMODT:
Oh, Mr. -- Judge Milho111n, this is 17 so importalt I feel.
18 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Only one.. I am not going to 19 allow you to engage in sequential cross examination.
20 MR. AAMODT:
May we have just a moment to speak to 21 each other?
22 MRS. AAMODT:
Then Mr. Aamodt will proceed.
Is 23 tha t all rig ht ?
$)
24 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
All right.
But if he does not 25 advance beyond 'this pace, I am going to start ruling that
)
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,969 l
1 his questions are irrelevant, which most of them are.
2 (Mr. and Mrs. Aamodt conferring.)
"3 3
HR. AAMODT:
I have essentially two remaining.
4 BY MR. AAMODT (Resuming):
5 Q
I have one more question relative to the NRC 6-examination, and/or one effort I would like to put forward 7 on that, and then I have a very brief series of questions 8 af terward on, I think, the subject we expected --
9 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
I think I should point out that to this line of questioning does not appear on your cross 11 examination plan.
It covers material which has already been 12 covered by other examination and by the documents which are 13 already in the rerord.
14 But if you insist on pursuing this, I will permit 15 you to pursue it for a very limited time.
So go ahead.
16 (Mr. and Mrs. Aamodt conferring.)
17 MR. AAMODT:
May I address you relative to this 18 before I ask another question?
i 19 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
You may.
20 MR. AAMODT:
We have in our possession this piece 21 of paper that we received from the licensee in response to --
22 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Describe the piece of paper.
23 MR. AAMODT:
It simply says on the top 9/18/81,
)
24 Richard A.
Matakas.
It was a piece of paper to which we 25 ascribed no importance particularly until last night and 1^)
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON, D.C.,20024 (202) $54-2345
26,970 o,
')
1 today.
A pp a ren tly, Richard Matakas, on the 18th of let me 2 September spent the whole day -- he interviewed
~3 3 put it this way, he interviewed no one else by himself other 4 than Mr. DD.
5 Mr. DD's interview -- the records of his interview 6 do not uniquely -- do not contain notes of the interview 7 signed by him and uniquely, do not contain any record 8 written by the licensee.
And it was a t about this time tha t 9 it might very well have been that the dialogue concerning 10 the DD-P allecations began.
11 And it is this absence of information on the 12 record that is of unique interest to us.
And how at this 13 late date in the proceeding we proceed to fill a hole that
.. 3
}
14 has only now become evident to be a hole I am at a loss, and
~~
15 I have to just present it to you.
16 MR. BLAKEa I would like to respond.
First, I 17 hearken back to the ref erence by the Aamodts this morning to 18 an earlier discovery request and the challenge with regard 19 to whether or not we had inappropriately responded to a 20 question regarding Mr. O's involvement with GPU.
21 It was stated at that point by the Aamodts that 22 they had asked the question about whether or not any 23 involvement of his company with GPU -- in fact, that
')
24 question read, "Are the two individuals who have confessed 25 to cheating still within the GPU organization?"
And the 3j ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
26,971 kS) 1 response was no, which I still regard to be appropriate.
2 Most recen tly now, we have heard a reference to a
-)
3 one page document with an incredible innuendo.
In the 4 course of trying to provide substance to this, the statement 5 has been ande by Mr. Aamodt tha t Mr. Matakas only conducted 6 one interview alone.
I think a review of the ICE 7 investigative reports will prove him wrong immediately, 8 including that of Mr. KK, which has been the subject of 9 considerable dis'cussion in this proceeding; one that I site 10 as a starter.
11 Third, and finally, I am informed that out of an 12 abundance, an incredible abundance of providing 13 documentation related to the Aamodts' discovery requests, 14 Mr. Wilson included that one sheet of paper, and what we 15 have seen is the typed version where r.
Matakas came into w
16 the office at one point and he wrote down the date and his 17 name as the starts of notes, and that is all the notes that 18 he had, and we gave even that one piece of paper out in the 19 course of discovery.
20 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
That who had?
21 MR. BLAKEs Mr. Wilson.
It has nothing to do with 22 a potential document on Mr. Husted 's interview with Mr.
23 Matakas.
24 25
)
l ALDERSON REPcRTING COMPANY,INC, i
4N3 V"G!N!A AVE S.W WASH!NGTON. O C. 20024 (202) 554 2345 l
26,972
- o,
71 1
JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
There is a witness on the 2 stand.
There is only one witness on the stand.
That e-)
3 witness may be asked questions which are relevant and 4 probative.
If you cannot ask that kind of question of the 5 witness, then that is unfortunate.
6 MR. AAMODT Yes.
I will endeavor to do that.-
7 (Mr. and Mrs. Aamodt conferring.)
8 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
I think the record should note 9 that there is a large gap in time at this point which 10 indicates to me that you are not prepared to continue.
11 MR. AAMODT:
Yes, I am.
I am trying to find my 12 proper list of questions.
13 (Mr. and Mrs. Aamodt conferring.)
.)
14 MR. AAMODT:
In all the shuffling we have lost my 15 -- the question there.
16 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
I do not have any indication 17 that you have an7 more questions on my outline.
You have 18 already completed your questioning.
19 MR. AAMODT My question 17 is a generalized 20 statement of questions we cave you before.
21 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
There is no question 17 on this 22 page.
i 23 MR. AAMODT:
Before we came in after what was it c
~
24 -- lunchtime -- then I gave you another piece that had 17 l
l 25 added to it.
~]
I ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHfNGToN. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 r
i 26,973 i
'$ )
1 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Mr. Aamodt 2
MR. AAMODT4 Tha t is all right.
We can --
"')
3 (Mr. and Mrs. Aamodt conferring.)
4 MR. AAMODTa All ri gh t.
I just 5
(Mr. and Mrs. Aamodt conferring.)
6 MR. AAMODTs My wife has one question.
7 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
I am not going to permit you to 8 engage in sequential cross examination.
9 (M r. and Mrs. Aamodt conferring.)
10 MR. AAMODT:
We vill close it here.
11 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Very well.
12 Does Staff have any questions?
13 MS. WAGNER:
Just a few.
BY MS. WAGNER:
14 15 O
Sir, my name is Mary Wagner, representing the NRC 16 Staff.
17 You testified earlier that before you sat for the 18 NRC exam in April you went to your office the morning before 19 you took the exam, is that correct?
Is that right?
20 A
Yes.
21 0
Do you recall what you did in your office before 22 the exam?
c 23 A
Not specifically.
There was a time lag of in
..q -'i) 24 excess of half an hour.
I may have studied for a few 25 minutes.
I do not recall.
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
._l
26,974 s'
- S
^
1 0
Do you recall whether you took anything with you 2 from your office into the exam room?
3 A
I took nothing out of my office into the exam room.
--)
4 Q
Did you take any materials such as a calculator or 5 a ruler or a steam table into the exam wi th you?
6 A
I took a calculator.
7 Q
Is that all you recall taking in with you?
8 A
Yes.
Oh, my lunch.
9 Q
And writing materials?
10 A
A pencil.
11 Q
And a ruler?
12 A
No.
I used my calculator case as a ruler.
It is 13 a little pocket calculator.
It has a straight edge on the
^)
14 side of it.
15 (Counsel for the NRC Staff conferring.)
16 0
Did you obtain any additional materials from your 17 office d uring the exam?
18 A
Absolutely not.
19 MS. WAGNER:
Thank you.
I have no further 20 questions.
21 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. BLAKE:
23 Q
Did you provide a signed, sworn statement to the n.
(5) 24 NRC Staff during the course of your interviews?
25 A
I do not recall whether I signed the last
, ')
)
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345 L
l 26,975 o
- 6 b) 1 interview with Mr. Matakas or not.
2 0
Did Mr. Christman 's presence d uring the first
' ')
3 interview with the NRC affect in any way your reactions or 4 response to the NRC investigator's questions?
5 A
Not at all.
6 3R. BLAKE:
I have no more questions.
7 MR. AAMODT:
I would like to follow up on that.
8 JUDGE MILHOLLINa Follow up on what?
9
~
MR. AAMODTs The question that Mr. Blake just 10 asked.
11 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Which question?
12 MR. AAMODT4 Where the witness was asked if he 13 signed a document.
When I asked the same -- to me he said 14 that he did sign a document without hesitation.
Now he has 15 said that --
16 THE WITNESS I said I do not recall whether I 17 signed it or not.
18 MR. AAMODTa But you told me you wrote a pa ra gra ph 19 by paragraph by paragraph -- and then had what you wanted 20 said and then signed it, and that is what the record will 21 read, and that is not what you said to Mr. Blake.
22 THE WITNESSa I am sorry.
If I said that to you 23 during our deposition, then that is the way I recalled it eg
!J 24 when I gave the deposition.
At this time I do not recall 25 whether I signed it or not.
)
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE S.W,. WASHINGTOfd. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,976 l
)
1 HR. AAMODT4 Judge Milho111n, I request that we 2 receive that document.
'")
3 JUDGE MILHOLLIN4 Is your response now tha t you do 4 not recall whether you signed the statement of your 5 interview or not?
Is that your testimony?
6 IHE' WITNESS:
Yes, it is.
7 MR. AAMODTs I would like to request that we have 8 that document, Judge Hilhollin, that we receive it.
9 JUDGE MILHOLLIN4 Wha t document are you referring 10 to?
11 MR. AAMODTa The document that either was or was 12 not signed, that the witness instructed Mr. Matakas, as he 13 told us earlier, to write paragraph by paragraph because he
)
14 found it acceptable, the Matakas interview.
15 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
From where I am sitting I do not 16 see any document such as the one you are referrino to.
17 MR. AAMODTs The witness described it.
It is not 18 in testimony.
That is exactly the point.
It is missing.
19 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Well, you are asking -- I am not 20 sure what your motion is.
Your motion is what?
21 MR. AAMODT That we receive the handwritten 22 summary of the interview that the witness referred to 23 earlier in response to my question.
)
24 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
From whom are we going to 25 receive l't?
ALDERSoN REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE, S.W WASHINGTON. D.C. 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,977
- k 1
1 ER. AAMODT From the NRC.
2 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
I do not think the NBC has
")
3 off ered it in evidence.
4 MR. AAMODT:
They have not.
5 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Well, until they offer it, I do 6 not see how we can receive it.
7 MR. AAMODT Can we not request it and receive it 8 as a matter 9
JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Do you want to request them to 10 provide it?
11 MR. AAMODT I would request that the Board direct 12 them to provide it to us.
13 MR. GOLDBERG4 Do you wish me to respond to that,
)
14 Judge Milho111n ?
15 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
If you wish to respond.
I 16 assume you do.
17 MR. GOLDBERG:
If that is a motion for the 18 production of a document, if the document which is being and 19 requested is in existence -- a n d I do not know that 20 if they are handwritten notes of Mr. Matakas which have not p/
21 become agency records or which he has not comingled with 22 general agency records but rather has kept as his personal 23 notes, then they are not in the possession or control of the q
J 24 N BC, and we have no authority to require Mr. Matakas to give 25 up possession of tha t document, and we have no power to h
(
J ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S.W., WASHINGTON. D.C 20024 (202) 554 2345
26,978 t
- h II 1 require it to be produced.
2 This issue was the subject of f ed eral district
'9) 3 court litigation involving the Nuclear R egulatory Commission 4 in which the District Court held tha t such a document is not 5 an agency record.
6 JUDGE MILHOLLIN Was this document requested 7 during discovery?
8 MR. AAMODT4 We asked for all documents relating 9 to the cheating incident, and this is one that was not 10 provided, and we did not know it existed until the witness 11 told us just now.
12 MB. GOLDBERG:
I suspect that the reason why it 13 was not provided by the NRC Staff at that time was that it 14 was not an agency document which could be produced absent 15 the voluntary action on the part of Mr. Matakas to give up 16 his personal property.
17 MR. AAMODT.
Judge Milho111n, I would argue it was 18 not personal property if it was work he was paid to do for 19 the NRC.
20 MR. BLAKE:
If the Aamodts have an additional 21 substantive discovery request based on what we have here, 22 can 't they put it in a written motion and file it?
But at 23 this juncture to argue whether or not it was work for the c
24 NRC, theref ore not in his personal possession or what not.
25 (Pause.)
b ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC, 400 VIRGINIA AVE., S W., WASHINGTON, D C. 2C124 (202) 554 2345
26,979
(
- 6 I
1 JUDGE MILHOLLIN4 In view of the hour and the 2 circumstances we find ourselves in, it is obvious to me that
']
3 this is a very late arising subject and the question whether 4 it is properly discoverable, and whether the NRC Staff in 5 f act possesses the inf ormation, and whether the information 6 in f act exists cannot really be established right now in 7 this room.
So I think the proper way to proceed here is for 8 the Aamodts to make a requent f or the document in writing 9 indicating specifically what their previous discovery 10 request was and why it was not responded to, and also 11 indicating the materiality of the information sought.
12 MR. AAMODT:
We will be pleased to do that.
13 JUDGE MILHOLLIN The other parties can then 14 respond, and we can determine whether it is appropriate to 15 take any further action at that time.
I can determine that.
16 MR. AAMODT4 That is fine, Judge Milho111n.
17 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Does any other party have 18 additional questions?
I may have a question.
19 EXAMINATION BY THE SPECIAL MASTER 20 BY JUDGE MILHOLLIN 21 0
I am afraid, Mr. Husted, that I do not recall 22 whether you have testified to a particular point, so I am 23 going to ask you a question simply to make sure the record 24 is complete.
25 Did someone request that you make your office P
ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC, 4C'] VIRGINI A AVE., S.W.. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20024 (202) 554-2345
l 26,980 s
,b
)
1 available to Mr. U during the day of April 23, 1981?
2 A
No, sir.
3 JUDGE MILHOLLIN :
I have no further questions.
2) 4 Hearing no additional offer of questioning from a 5 party, Hr. Husted, you are excused.
You are aware that 6 there is a sequestration order in ef fect in this proceeding, 7 and that it does prohibit you from discussing your testimony 8 with any other person who is on the schedule of witnesses or 9 discussing the testimony of any other person who is on the 10 schedule of witnesses.
11 Do you have any questions about it?
12 THE WITNESS:
No, sir.
13 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Very well.
14 (The witness was excused.)
~
15 JUDGE MILHOLLIN:
Do you have any matters off the 16 record you want to discuss?
17 We are off the record.
18 (Discussion off the record.)
i 19 l
20 21 22 23
)
24 25
-h ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY,INC.
400 VIRGINI A AVE., S.W WASHINGTON. D C. 20024 (202) 554-2345