ML20207A340
| ML20207A340 | |
| Person / Time | |
|---|---|
| Site: | Shoreham File:Long Island Lighting Company icon.png |
| Issue date: | 04/23/1987 |
| From: | Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Panel |
| To: | |
| References | |
| CON-#287-3283 OL-5, NUDOCS 8704270167 | |
| Download: ML20207A340 (87) | |
Text
r OR\\GI UNITED STATES O
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION IN THE MATTER OF:
DOCKET NO: 50-322-OL-5 (EP Exercise)
LONG ISLAND LIGHTING COMPANY (Shoreham Nuclear Power Station, Unit 1)
O LOCATION:
HAUPPAUGE, NEW YORK PAGES:
3687,~3772 DATE:
THURSDAY, APRIL 23, 1987 i
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ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
OfftciaiReporters 444 North CapitolStreet I
Washington, D.C. 20001 l
(202)347-3700
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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA O
NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION 2
BEFORE Tile ATOMIC SAFETY AND LICENSING BOARD 3
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x 4
In the Matter of:
5 Docket Number LONG ISLAND LIG!! TING COMPANY 50-322-OL-5 6
(Shoreham Nuclear Power Station, (EP Exercise)
Unit No. 1) 7
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x 8
9 Court of Claims State of New York State Offica Building 10 Third Floor Courtroom Veterans Memorial liighway 11 Ilauppauge, New York 12 Thursday, April 23, 1987 The hearing in the above-entitled matter reconvened at 14 9:00 a.m.
15 16 BEFORE:
17 J OllN 11. FRYE, III, Chairman Atomic Safety and Licensing Board 18 U.S.
Nuclear Regulatory Commission Washington, D.
C.
20555 g
OSCAR 11. PARIS, Member 20 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board U.S.
Nuclear Regulatory Commission 21 Washington, D.
C.
20555 FREDERICK J.
S IIO N, Member 22 Atomic Safety and Licensing Board U.S.
Nuclear Regulatory Commission 23 Washington, D.
C.
20555 24 25
-- continued --
Acn. FEDERAL RnnonTEns, INC.
202._t47 mo Nationwide emerage m o.3 ts-ua6
3688 1
APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of Long Island Lighting Company:
KATHY E.
B.
McCLESKEY, ESQ.
SCOTT D.
MATCHETT, ESQ.
4 Hunton & Williams 707 East Main Street 5
P.
O.
Box 1535 Richmond, Virginia 23212 6
On behalf of Suffolk County:
KARLA J.
LETSCHE, ESQ.
SUSAN M.
CASEY, ESQ.
8 Kirkpatrick & Lockhart South Lobby, Ninth Floor 9
1800 M Street, N.W.
Washington, D.
C.
20036-5891 10 On behalt of the State of New York:
11 RICHARD J.
ZAHNLEUTER, ESQ.
Special Counsel to the Governor 12 Executive Chamber, noom 229 O
State Capitol.
13 Albany, New York 12224 14 On behalf of the NRC:
ORESTE PIRFO, ESQ.
15 U.S.
Nuclear Regulatory Commission 16 Washington, D.
C.
20555 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
()
24 25 ACE. FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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CONTENTS O
2 WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS DENNIS MILETI, 3
MICHAEL PATTERSON, ELAINE ROBINSON, 4
BRIAN McCAFFREY, and CHARLES DAVERIO 5
by Ms. Letsche 3488 by Mr. Zahnleuter 3735 6
by the Board 3743 by Ms. Letsche 3753 7
by Ms. McCleskey 3754 by Ms. Letsche 3760 8
EXHI BI TS 9
NUMBER IDENTIFIED RECEIVED 10 Suffolk County Exercise Exhibit 48 3700 3735 1
Suffolk County Exercise Exhibit 49 3700 3735 12 Suffolk County Exercise Exhibits' 45, 3735
(}
46, and 47 14 RECESSES:
A.M.
- 3716 15 A.M.
- 3770 16 17 18 19 4
20 4
21 22 23
()
24 25 ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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i 30617.0 KSW 3690 sv) 1 PROCE ED I NG S 2
JUDGE FRYE:
Good morning.
3 THE WITNESSES:
Good morning.
4 MS. LETSCHE:
Would you all turn, please, to page 5
66 of your testimony?
That's a continuation of your 6
discussion of subpart C of Contention 39.
We touched upon 7
this a little bit yesterday but I want to talk more about it 8
today.
9 You refer in the answer to question number 133 to 10 misstatements of fact which you believe were contained in 11 subpart I of Contention 39-C.
That talks about the message 12 we referred to yesterday about sending trucks into the EPZ O
kJ 13 area and the subpart has a statement that prestaging had 14 begun.
It says as of 8: 20 however LERO was already 15 beginning to prestage for evacuation and a site area 16 emergency had already been declared.
You say in the first 17 place, the intervenors are wrong to state the prestaging had 18 begun.
It is true, is it not, Mr. Davorio, that at 8:05, 19 during the exercise, LERO began to contact bus companies to 20 ascertain their availability to evacuation?
21 WITNESS DAVERIO:
I don't have that data with me.
22 It would not surprise me, though, that sometime after the 23 alert when people were EOC as a precursor to getting 24 businesses the first step is to determine the availability.
25 They were just seeing how many buses were available.
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1 MS. LETSCHE:
It is true, is it not that in the 2
FEMA report at page 35, FEMA stated as early as 8:05 before 3
the receipt of the utility recommendation for the declaration 4
of a site emergency ECL the bus coordinators were to 5
determine the potential number of buses available?
6 WITNESS DAVERIO:
That's not prestaging.
They are 7
just calling the bus companies, saying how many are 8
available.
9 JUDGE FRYE:
Do you have any personal knowledge of 10 this?
11 WITNESS DAVERIO:
I'm saying based on -- I don't 12 have anything here to say that they did or did not but it 13 wouldn't surprise me.
14 MS. LETSCHE:
I take it from your testimony here 15 that you don't consider actual prestaging to begin until an 16 explicit order to, "prestage" has been given, and that 17 involves particular things at the staging areas; is that 18 right?
19 WITNESS DAVERIO:
Prestaging in our procedures is 20 a specific activity at which time you dispatch bus drivers 21 from the staging area to pick up the buses to report to the 22 transfer points for specific act, that's correct.
23 MS. LETSCilE:
Would you turn to page 67 of your 24 testimony, please?
I want to discuss for a minute the answer l
25 to your question number 135.
In that question, you discuss
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the examples set forth in subpart IV of Contention'39-C and 4
2 that relates to an inquiry called in at 3:15 to rumor control 3
inquiring whether there had been a release.
To which the 4
responder provided dose data as of 1:00.
i 5
Is that right?
That's what's in the contention?
6 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
4-l 7
MS. LETSCHE:
Now you say that what in fact the i
8 rumor control operator did in response to that question, has
}
}-
9 there been a release, was to read LILCO news release number i
10 16 to the caller and then that release contained the most j
11 current dose rate projections available which were made at 12 1:00.
13 Would you turn for me, please, to LILCO news i
14 release number 16?
That's in your attachment E, I believe, 15 near the end of that attachment.
16 Now, I gather from -- you don't attach this t.
l 17 message and answer form to your testimony, do you?
It is not 18 in your attachment R or S?
You can take my word for it, it 19 is not.
20 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
The news release?
21 MS. LETSCHR:
No, the question and answer we're l
22 talking about, the rumor control question and answer.
I
(
23 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
I don't recall what's in 24 there now.
I assume it is correct.
25 MS. LETSCHE:
It is not.
I assume that you would O
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agree with me tha t the response did not contain anything 2
other than the reading of this LILCO news release number 16, 3
right?
4 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
That's correct.
5 MS. LETSCHE:
Now, is it your opinion, 6
Mr. McCaffrey, that the reading of LILCO news release number 7
16 is an appropriate and adequate response to a question 8
whether there has been a release of radiation?
9 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
10 MS. LETSCHE:
Now you say in your testimony that 11 this news release - do you know when this news release was g
V 12 actual)y released?
13 (Panel Conferring.)
14 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
We just need to verify a time 15 it was received at the ENC.
16 It was received ENC sometime between 2:15 and 17 2:30.
18 MS. LETSCHE:
You say in your testimony that the 19 dose rate projections contained in this news release were the 20 most current available.
Are you saying that there were no 21 additional dose rate projections made between 1:00 and 3:15 22 on the date of the exercise?
23 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
I have looked a t the news i
24 releases 16 through 19.
It would appear that 16 is the 25 latest dose projection intormation released by LILCO.
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MS. LETSCHE:
I think m'j question was, are you 2
saying that there were no additional dose rate projections 3
made during the exercise subsequent to 1:00 and prior to 4
3:15?
5 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
In the process of assessing 6
the accident, the emergency operations facility is always 7
reassessing dose rates and based upon field measurements or 8
plant conditions, so I assume through this period they were 9
continuing to reassess what was happening.
I just don't have 10 further details that would been on the forms.
11 MS. LETSCHE:
It is certainly likely, is it not, 12 that there would have been additional dose rate projections 13 made subsequent to 1:00 during the exercise; right?
14 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
That's undoubtedly correct 15 and those projections could have been higher or lower.
16 MS. LETSCHE:
Now, when I asked you a minute ago 17 when news release number 16 was released, you told me that it 18 was received at the ENC sometime between 2:15 and 2:30.
I 19 assume in light of the copier problems and things like that 20 that it was not, in fact, released to the press until 21 sometime subsequent to 2:15 or 2:30; is that correct?
22 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
That would seem likely.
23 MS. LETSCIIE :
I take it that you don't know 24 exactly when?
25 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
I don't know when these O
ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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releases were released to the press.
l l
2 MS. LETSCHE:
Now, news release number 16 talks in 3
terms of done rate projections.
Let's assume for now that 4
that was released at about 3:00.
The EBS messages talk about 5
dose projections rather than dose rate projections; correct?
6 I can direct your attention to EBS number 7, which was the 7
first one with any dose rate information in it.
8 WITNESS ROBINSON:
Yes.
9 MS. LETSCHE:
Mr. McCaffrey, there's a difference, 10 isn't there, between dose projections and dose rate 11 projections?
12 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
That's correct.
One is based 13 upon an assumed time period of let's say 10 hours1.157407e-4 days <br />0.00278 hours <br />1.653439e-5 weeks <br />3.805e-6 months <br /> which is 14 typical on the RECS forms.
The other is simply the radiation 15 release per hour.
16 MS. LETSCHE:
Now, that difference is not 17 explained anywhere in either news release number 16 or any of 18 the EDS messages, is it?
19 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
The LILCO press release 20 explains it as a rate that is per hour.
The EDS message 21 simply gives the total dose number.
22 MS. LETSCHE:
When you say that news release 23 number 16 explains it, you are referring to the fact that 24 each of the actual measurements is stated as millirem / hour?
25 In that what you refer to?
RJ ACE FEDERAL. REPORTERS, INC.
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WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
2 MS. LETSCHE:
That constitutes an explanation in 3
your opinion; is that correct?
4 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
5 MS. LETSCHE:
You have never discussed or 6
explained in any of your press conferences, did you, the dose 7
rate projections that were contained in any of the LILCO 8
press releases?
9 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes, we did.
I watched the 10 tapes again last night and we spent a considerable amount of 11 time doing it both myself and Dr. Brill gives his independent i
l 12 opinion of what the numbers meant.
l 13 MS. LETSCHE:
Mr. McCaffrey, I would like you to l
l 14 turn to the transcript of the press conferences and point me l
15 to any discussion of the dose rate projections such as those 16 set forth in LILCO press release number 16.
17 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Do you recall a page we were 18 on yesterday --
19 MS. LETSCHE:
Dr. Brill is in roughly around pages 20 55, 56, 57, I believe.
21 JUDGE FRYE:
He began speaking on 54.
22 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
If I can refer to page 47 at 23 the bottom, this is the beginning of the press conference 24 that commenced at 12:47, and we're talking about the core 25 being partially uncovered, 2/3 uncovered and what that meant, O
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1 and on page 48 we say at two miles downwind our field 2
monitoring teams are measuring 180 millirems per hour.
Later 3
Dr. Brill comes in to put perspective on that.
4 MS. LETSCHE:
And that's the statements by 5
Dr. Brill that we talked about yesterday where he talks about 6
180 millirem.
On page 54 he talks about 180 millirem at two 7
miles from the plant and then goes on to discuss that, 8
right?
9 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
l 10 MS. LETSCHE:
This is during the news conference i
l 11 that went from 12:47 to 1:07, correct?
l 12 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
13 MS. LETScilE :
That's before the dose rate I
14 projections set forth in LILCO press release number 16 were 15 available, correct?
16 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Available to theepress but 17 not available to the people at the ENC and the LILCO 18 organization, the on-site organization.
19 MS. LETSCHE:
I thought you said LILCO press 20 release 16 wasn't received at the ENC until between 2:15 and 21 2:30.
22 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
That's correct but I had 23 access to information throughout the day.
During the day 1 24 get telecopies of the plant conditions and the most current 25 RECS forms.
As soon as the RECS forma come in it is
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literally four feet from me and we monitor that to see if l
2 there are any changes in dose measurements, more important 3
than the earlier hypothesized amounts.
That's a key example 4
of how we had current information and went in and used it.
5 MS. L E T S Cil E :
What you are saying is that you, in 6
fact, would have known this information contained in LILCO 7
press release probably before it got to the ENC at 2:15 or 8
2:30; right?
9 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
10 MS. LETSCHE:
Can you point to anything in the 11 transcript in any of the subsequent press conferences where 12 you discuss beyond what you pointed out by Dr. Brill and 13 yourself any updated dose rate from that contained in press 14 release number 16?
15 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
I have not gone beyond page 16 62 but that's the next press conference and on page 62 in the 17 opening for that press conference I indicate that, one, the 10 reactor core has been reflooded, and that the off-site 19 releases continue to be in the range of 180 millirem per 20 hour2.314815e-4 days <br />0.00556 hours <br />3.306878e-5 weeks <br />7.61e-6 months <br />, and then I refer to as we projected to you earlier, 21 which is the preceding press conference.
22 MS. LETSCHE:
That means that during this press 23 conference which was between 1:45 and 2:00, you told the 24 press that the measured off-site releases continue to be in 25 the range of 180 millirem per hour, right?
O ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
2 MS. LETSCHE:
That's it, isn't it?
There are no 3
other statements by you in these press conferences concerning 4
dose rate projections such as those set forth in LILCO press S
release number 16, are there, Mr. McCaffrey?
6 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes, there are, but not in a 7
quantified sense.
Later on in that same press conference, 8
based upon the fact that the reactor core had now been 9
reflooded'and cooled, I went into a discussion that the 10 off-site releases would be expected to decline.
I don't 11 recall any further quantification.
12 MS. LETSCHE:
And there wasn't ever any 13 explanation, was there, during any of these press conferences 14 of the difference between the dose rate projections that you 15 were discussing of 180 millirem per hour or those that were 16 set forth in LILCO press release number 16, and the dose 17 projections that were being broadcast on the EDS station 18 beginning with EBS message number 7?
19 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
No.
During that time of the 20 day there were no questions from the press with any 21 inconsistency.
The only inconsistency question they had was 22 earlier in the morning when in either the second or third 23 press conference I was asked to explain an inconsistency in 24 slight releases of radiation.
That was the only discussion 25 raised by the press during the day as to any inconsistency in
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radiation type information.
2 MS. LETSCilE And I take it that you and 3
Ms. Robinson made the judgment that it was not necessary to 4
provide any explanation on your own without a question from 5
the press, correct.?
6 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
It never struck us as a 7
problem during the day and we were not asked the question.
8 MS. LETSCilE:
Would you turn please to page 68 of 9
your testimony?
To make it easier I would like to have 10 marked as Suffolk County exercise Exhibits 48 and 49 two 11 documents which contain the rumor control questions and 12 answers that are ditcussed on pages 60 and 69 of the LILCO AU 13 testimony.
14 (Exhibits 48 and 49 identified. )
15 JUDGE FRYE:
Which one is 48?
16 MS. LETSCllE:
Let's have 40 be the one that says 17 Dan Rather and 11:45, headed " Rumor Control Question Number 18 12" and 49 will be the one headed " Rumor Control Question 19 Number 1" and has the time 8:45.
20 In the answer to question 36 you discuss the 21 quest. ion and answer set forth in what is marked as suffolk 22 County exercise Exhibit 48; correct?
23 WITNESS MC CAPPREY:
Yes.
24 MS. LETSCIIE :
And this was one of the public 25 inquiries or in fact it was a media inquiry that was handled O
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by the media response personnel rather than a district office s
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2 or call board rumor control operator; correct?
4 i
3 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
t 4
MS. LETSCHE:
Now, this call came in supposedly 5
from Dan Rather at 11:45.
At 11:45, at the time -- as of l
6 11:45, I should say, there was an advisory for zones A 4
7 through M, Q and R to evacuate; correct?
7 O
WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
9 MS. LETSCHE:
And that was pursuant to the fact l
10 that a general emergency, unusual, a general emergency had 1
11 been declared at 9:39 a.m.,
correct?
12 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
I 13 MS. LETSCHE:
Now, the response to this question 4
14 from Mr. Rather that he wants to take a TV crew into the 1
15 Shoreham plant and how does he get there is, we don't advise i
l 16 going to the plant.
There's a site area emergency.
You will l
17 just be in the way, followed by directions to the plant; i
10 correct?
4 l
19 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
t j
20 MS. LETSCHR:
It is your position, Mr. McCaffrey, i
j 21 that that answer was proper; correct?
Is that what you say i
l 22 in the last line of your answer to question 367 i
23 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
24 MS. LETSCHE:
In fact it was incorrect because at 25 this point there had been a general emergency declared, not a l
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site area emergency, right?
2 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
That's correct.
3 MS. LETSCHE:
And this message never informed 4
Mr. Rather that the area that he would have to traverse to f
5 get to the plant had been advised to evacuate, correct?
)I 6
WITNESS MC CAPPREY:
It provided the summary 7
statement which is we don't advise going to the plant.
I 8
suppose they could have added to that "because the area has 1
i 9
been advised to evacuate" but they provided the essentiai l
10 information, and they then gave him the information that I
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t l
l 11 guess he wanted.
12 MS. LETSCHE:
Now, 3L also didn't advise J
13 Mr. Rather, as you note here in your testimony, that of 14 course LILCO could prevent anyone from entering plant
)
15 grounds, and I assume you would not have permitted Mr. Rather i
16 to enter the plant grounds, correct?
17 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
That is correct, and further, i
18 Mr. Rather probably would have been aware through the EBS 1
19 system that a general emergency had been declared.
i 20 MS. LETSCHR:
And this message -- I take it it is t
j 21 your position that this message not only was proper, but was
(
22 the appropriate response according to the procedures which j
i 23 govern the behavior of these media response personnel, 1
24 correct?
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25 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
I would like to refer to the 1
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1 procedure.
2 I'm referring to EPIP 4-7.
Unfortunately it is an 3
October '06 version.
I'm not sure there was any substantive 4
change but it talks about the responsibilities of the 5
personnel to respond by using or reading approved press 6
releases, press kits and brochures.
So therefore, I think 7
their response was appropriate.
8 MS. LETSCHE:
Isn't it true, Mr. McCaffrey, that 9
the media response personnel are, in fact, supposed to refer 10 press people or supposed to instruct press peoplo to come to 11 the ENC if they want information during an emergency?
12 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
They really have a two-part 13 function.
One is to respond with information they have that 14 they think is responsive to the inquiry, and number 2, to j
15 advise the media that the ENC is available.
If they want 16 further information, certainly they could come there.
4 j
17 MS. LETSCHR:
Mr. Rather wasn't over told that.
18 He was inutead given instructions to the plant, right?
I 19 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
The nature of his inquiry was i
20 he wanted to go to the plant so that was the answer they gave j
21 him.
Maybe Mr. Patterson could comment as to whether that's j
l 22 typical of the media.
i 23 MS. LETSCHEt I don't think Mr. patterson is
}
24 familiar with the job requirements of the media response
)
25 personnel.
What I'm inquiring about is whether this response
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was appropriate by the LILCO personnel, not what the press 2
would do.
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3 Mr. McCaffrey --
4 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
I do need to correct it.
We 5
found the previous version.
It is a bit different.
The 6
respondents have two requirements versus the three that are 7
in the revision.
Let me read exactly what was in place on 0
that day.
A is to respond to telephone media inquiries by 9
reading approved press releases and B is refer any emergency 10 questions to the appropriate organizations.
What's different 11 in the revision is that it expands upon the availabic 12 resources that the media response people have at their 1
13 disposal.
14 MS. LETSCHE:
Of those duties in effect on the i
15 date of the exercise, the first, respond to telephone media 16 inquiries by reading approved press releases, that's not what 17 this response is, is it?
It is not, in it, Mr. McCaffrey?
18 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
It's not a. literal reading of 19 the press release; that's correct.
20 MS. LETSCHE:
This response also did not refer any 21 emergency questions to an appropriate organization, did it?
22 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
I regard item D as I just 23 read as, one, that means if they don't have the available 24 information, refer them to someone who can give them the 25 information.
I don't read it in the literal sense, O
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MS. LETSCHE:
But you do read this answer to 2
Mr. Rather on Exhibit 48 as referring Mr. Rather to an 3
organization that has appropriate information; is that 4
right?
5 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
No, I didn't say that.
6 MS. LETSCllE:
That was my question.
This does not 7
refer Mr. Rather to an organization that would have 8
responsive information, does it?
9 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
It does not, nor do I feel 10 that's required by the procedure.
11 MS. LETSCHE:
All right, let's --
12 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Again, I think the words mean 13 to the media response person, if you don't have the 14 information, refer them t.o someone who does.
Perhaps it.
15 could be worded a little better but that's what it meanu.
16 MS. LETSCilE Mr. McCaffrey, where in this answer 17 did this media response person refer Mr. Rather to anyone?
10 They just. gave him directions to the plant; right?
19 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
20 MS. LETSCHH:
Let's turn to Suffolk County Exhibit 21 Number 49.
Now t.his is the question and annwer that you 22 discuss on questions on the bottom of page 60 and your answer 23 la on page 69, and it in the one referenced in the subpart 3 24 of Contention 39-C.
This in also one of the responses that provided by the media response personnel rather than the 25 was O
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rumor control district office or call board network; 2
correct?
)
3 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
4 MS. LETSCliE This was a question supposedly from 5
Stewart Diamond of the New York Times at 8:45 a.m.
saying I 6
understand you just had a problem at Shoreham, what's going 7
on there; is that right?
8 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
9 MS. LETSCllE:
The answer which I will read as best 10 I can tell and tell me if you disagree with how I read this.
11 This is the latest news release at 6:17 a.m. an alert was 12 declared, no releaue of radiation.
I can't read the next 13 word.
And then I assume as of 5:40 a.m.
this morning an 14 unusual event was declared, and then I can't read the rest.
15 I don't know if you read any more of it, 16 Mr. McCaffrey.
17 WTTNESS MC CAFFREY:
My copy is as bad as yours, I i
10 think.
19 MS. LETSCHE:
I assume that these reflect the two 20 h1LCO news releases 1 and 2, which are in your, I believe, i
i 21 attachment J to your testimony.
Would you agree with me on 22 that, Mr. McCaffrey?
I don't want to quibble over the 23 words.
I assume that's what is referred to here.
24 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes, I can make out the word i
25
" leakage" in your Exhibit 49 that corresponds to " leakage" in
- O l
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release number 1 and number 2.
2 MS. LETSCHE:
Okay, now, you say in your testimony l
l 3
that the information provided to the caller in response to l
4 this question was accurate, however it was not totally up to l
5 date because of the copier problems.
6 It was not up to date because at 8:45, the 7
accident had proceeded to a site area emergency, and there 0
had been a release of radiation, and other things had been 9
contained in subsequent press releases; correct?
Other 10 information beyond what was in press releases 1 and 2?
11 (Panel Conferring.)
12 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
That's correct.
They would 13 have had 1 and 2 available.
14 MS. LETSCIIE :
I know they would have had 1 and 2 15 available, Mr. McCaffrey.
The reason that this answer was 16 not correct was because as of 8:45 there had been a site area 17 emergency declared, there had been a release of radiation 18 into the atmosphere, and news releases subsequent to numbers 19 1 and 2 in fact contained additional information not 20 contained in this answer, correct?
21 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
The subsequent news releases 22 had more information than what was contained in the answer.
23 MS. LETSCHE:
Now, this answer was given after the 24 ENC had been activated, right?
25 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
'v l
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MS. LETSCHE:
And these media response personnel 2
are located at the ENC, correct?
3 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
4 MS. LETSCHE:
This answer also does not indicate, 5
does it, that Mr. Diamond should come to the now activated l
6 ENC for information about the accident, does it?
7 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
It does not appear that he l
8 needed additional information.
Looks like he got the answer 9
to what he asked for.
10 MS. LETSCHE:
I take it that it is your position f
]
11 that the media response personnel who provided this answer, 12 even though located at the ENC, which as you said had updated 13 information coming in from the plant all the time, should not 14 have had access to information beyond that contained in press 15 releases number 1 and 2; correct?
16 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
On the day of the exercise, 17 they were to use the press releases so that's all they would 18 have used.
In addition, the press people have media briefing 19 days that are requireo by the NUREG-0654, especially 20 Mr. Diamond, who is inti.aately familiar with the plant so if 21 that's all he needed, the answer was responsive.
22 MS. LETSCHE:
Listen to the question, 23 Mr. McCaffrey.
Is it your position that the media response 24 personnel who provided the answer to the question who was 25 located at the ENC when he provided this answer should not l
1 l
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have had access to information more recent than that 2
contained in LILCO press releases 1 and 2 at the time he 3
answered this question at 8:45?
4 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
On the day of the exercise, 5
with the procedure that was in place, they would have only 6
had the two press releases.
I think it is better the way it 7
is.
They now have access to important information.
8 MS. LETSCHE:
As of 8:45 EBS message number 2 had 9
already been broadcast; is that correct?
10 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
11 MS. LETSCHE:
And the information contained in EBS 12 number 2 was not passed on to Mr. Diamond, was it?
13 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
No.
14 MS. LETSCHE:
I would like to direct your 15 attention, please, to the answer to question 138 on page 69 16 of your testimony.
This answer or question and answer 17 discusses another rumor control inquiry that was made at 1:17 18 simply asking what areas were being evacuated, and in 19 response, the rumor control personnel told the caller that 20 zones A through M, Q and R should evacuate.
Now this 21 question and answer did go through the regular network for 22 rumor contro]; correct?
23 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Your question was whether it 24 went through the system?
Yes, it did.
25 MS. LETSCHE:
So you say this call was made to O
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either a district office or call board and went from there up 2
to the ENC and then over to LERO and then back?
3 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
No, what I meant by it went 4
to the system is it came into the proper system, that is 5
under the emergency news manager's control.
In this 6
particular one, I believe this in the one that the FEMA 7
person called in directly to rumor control somehow, so on the 8
form there's no acknowledgment to coming into any of the 9
tentacles we called about, whether district offices or call 10 boards.
It was logged in directly at rumor control.
The 11 answer was provided by the rumor control or LILCO staff at 12 the news center.
13 MS. LETSC11E :
When you say it came directly into 14 rumor control, it went directly into the ENC, right?
15 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
16 MS. LETSCHE:
So this response was not an instance 17 of there being a problem getting updated information out to 18 one of the as you call it " tentacles" of the network; 19 correct?
This didn't go anywhere other than the ENC, right?
20 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
That's correct.
The people 21 of the ENC suffer from the same problem in copying.
That is 22 they need to receive their copies of the announcements also.
23 MS. LETSCilE Yes, but at 1:17 there had been ERS 24 messages out there for a while telling the entire EPZ to 25 evacuate, correct?
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1 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
2 MS. LETSCIIE :
And the ENC did have access it those 3
messages, right?
4 WITNESS ROBINSON:
One copy would be telecopied to S
In addition to which I had some of 6
that information because it was phoned in to me.
- Ilowever, 7
once both copiers broke down, as they did repeatedly, there 8
was no even internal distribution within the ENC.
9 MS. LETSCHE:
But you all say in your testimony, 10 don't you, that of course the people at ENC would hear the 11 EBS broadcasts?
12 WITNESS ROBINSON:
In a real emergency.
When O
V 13 being broadcast on the day of the exercise, since they were 14 simulated messages, there was no way those people would hear 15 this that day.
16 MS. LETSCHE:
But as of 1:00 you had gone into 17 press conferences and talked about those EBS messages, hadn't 18 you, Mc. Robinson?
19 WITNESS HOBINSON:
Yes, I had.
But the rumor 20 control people were not in the press conference area.
They 21 were - neither were they in the media monitoring area.
They 22 were in the back room.
23 MS. LETSCHR:
So they do not, in fact, have any 24 way of knowing what is going out over EBS or, in fact, what 25 you all are saying in press conferences; is that right?
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(Panel Conferring.)
2 WITNESS ROBINSON:
Under the procedures in place 3
on the day of the exercise that's correct.
They did not have 4
access to that.
5 MS. LETSCHE:
Would you turn, please, to page 70 6
of your testimony?
I'm going to ask you some questions about 7
your answer to question number 141, but before I do that I 8
have just a final question on rumor control which I forgot.
9 During the exercise I believe you say in your 10 testimony at pages 57 and 63 that there were 35 questions 11 called in to the rumor control network plus two to media
,s
(
12 response, right?
13 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Yes.
14 MS. LETSCHR:
Now, I take it that it is not your 15 testimony that those questions used during the exercise were 16 particularly unusual or different from the types of questions 17 that would be likely during a real accident.
18 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
I don't think I'm qualified 19 to answer that.
I think only Dr. Mileti can answer that.
20 MS. LETSCHR:
Let me ask you, Mr. McCaffrey, you 21 were the public information, one of the lead public 22 information people in your organization.
Is it your opinion 23 in your posiLion as spokesperson that the types of questions i
24 that were called in are out of the ordinary or 1ikely to be 25 different from what would be called in during a real l
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accident?
2 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
I don't know.
I have no 3
basis to compare it to.
4 WITNESS MILETI:
I do --
5 MS. LETSCHS:
Excuse me.
Ms. Robinson do you have 6
any basis for answering that question?
7 WITNESS ROBINSON:
No, I do not.
8 MS. LETSCHE:
I assume, though, that 9
Mr. McCaffrey, you would agree, would you not, that during a 10 real accident there would certainly or likely be a lot more 11 than 35 questions called in to that network?
12 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
I think that's a fair 13 statement.
14 MS. LETScilE Let's talk about this answer to 15 question 141.
This is a discussion of an allegation 16 contained in Contention 40, subpart C, concerning the EDS 17 message number 5, which says you will be directed along 18 evacuation routes by trained traffic guides who know which 19 way you should go.
20 MS. MC CLESKEY:
Ms. Letsche, apparently 43-C was 21 omitted from the attachment as an oversight, but certainly it 22 is in your contentions.
23 MS. LETSCHE:
I'm just. trying to find it here.
t In fact what the contention alleges la that once 24 i
25 the radio broadcast of EDS number 5 had been made, people i
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would expect LILCO traffic guides to be in place and to 2
provide assistance and guidance with respect to evacuation 3
routes.
4 You discuss in this answer several matters 5
involving the provisions of LILCO's plan relating to 6
mobilization of traf fic guides.
You say in particular on 7
page 71, after referring to the assumptions which underlie 8
the evacuation time estimates used in the LILCO plan, that 9
the relevant inquiry is whether traff'ic guides are at. their 10 traffic control points at about the time that congestion 1
11 begins to develop on the roads within the EPZ approximately J
12 one hour after the evacuation recommendation is given.
- Now, O
i l
d 13 I'm correct, aren't I, that that is the inquiry deemed to be 14 relevant by the licensing board whom you cite here in l
15 connection with evaluating evacuation time estimates?
16 MS. MC CLESKEY:
I object. to the question.
These 17 witnesses should not be opining about what was relevant to 18 the licensing board about the PID.
19 JUDGE FRYE:
I think it is a factual question.
Do 20 you know the answer to it?
21 WITNESS DAVERIO:
The pages cited trom the PID are 22 related to a mobilization time concerning the controlled I
23 versus uncontrolled evacuation,.
I 24 MS. LETSCHE:
Thin is not -- you are not saying, I
25 are you, that from the point of: view of the public or a O
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person who is a member of the public, that the relevant 2
inquiry is whether traffic guides are at their posts 3
approximat.ely one hour after the evacuation recommendation la 4
given?
5 WITNESS DAVERIO:
Yes.
6 MS. I,ETSCIIR :
You are saying that?
7 WITNESS DAVERIO:
Yes.
Our testimony states that 8
I believe after talking to the people who are on that panel
(
9 on mobilization, a person who la not finding congestion wotild 10 not be a lot concerned about not finding a traf fic 9ttide
(
11 either, that the traffic gulden are important to be there 12 af ter or around one hour t.o insure we get. a controlled 13 evacuat. ion vernun uncontrolled.
I think people who are 14 driving out without finding conges tion won' t worry abotit.
15 finding a traffic guide or not..
16 WITNESS MII,ETI I would an add that although I 17 think traf fic guideo are relevant in evacuationte nuch an 18
- t. hose that in mout evacuations in this nation and we have one 19 on the average ever y day in the tinited Staten, of courtre not 20 all involving large numbers of people, in mos t you don ' t. even 21 have traf fic gitiden and people get out.
22 JUDGE PARIS:
In large onttu, you usually have 23 police, don't you?
24 WITNESS Mll,HTI:
When there's enough time, you.
l 25 Hut th.it donan't noccupartly mean it in au detaileil or an O
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planned as it is here.
It is just the police responding to 2
the situation as an emergency, and there may not be police at 3
all congested points, et cetera.
But certainly people do 4
pitch in like that and help.
5 JUDGE PARIS:
Thank you.
6 MS. LETSCilE:
I'm about to move into the section 7
on the shadow evacuat. ion and my questioning will not be H
3engthy on that.
I would appreciate a five-minute break and 9
I will be finished up in halt an hour.
10 JUDGE FRYE:
Let's just take a 15-minute break at 11 this point.
12 (Recess.)
O 13 JUDGE FRYE:
Hack on the record, please.
14 MS. LETSCllR:
Dr. Mileti, will you turn, please, 1S to page 73 of your testimony?
16 WITNESS MILETI:
I'm there.
17 MS. LETScilE:
On that page beginning with the la answer to question 145 and continuing for a couple of pages, 19 you discuou your opinionn about preemergency surveyn 20 concerning behavior during an emergency.
Now, am I correct.
21 that your diucunnion on page 74 in the paragraph that. beginn 22 "a few scholarp recently," and there are citations in there, 23 that discuanton deals with research that. seeku to compare 24 attituden and hehavior, correct?
25 WITNESS M.ff,ETI:
Yes.
Ilowever, some people, when ACl! lil!Dl:RAI. Rimoantas, INC.
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1 they have tried to study how what people say and how what 2
people do covary or not covary, label the opinion or the 3
answer, an attitude some people call it a " behavioral 4
intention," some call it a "value."
It is basically what 5
people say versus what people do.
6 MS. LETSCHE:
To put this in context could you 7
define for me an " attitude?"
8 WITNESS MILETI:
In the traditional definition, 9
which is according to the old sociology school at Chicago, an 10 attitude is a predisposition to behavior.
However, it is 11 used in a variety of different ways by different social 12 scientists depending on the context.
O 13 MS. LETSCIIR:
In the context in which you use it 14 in your test.imony here, how do you define " attitude?"
15 WITNESS MILETI:
In the generic sense.
If'I were 16 taking an exam, I would define it as a predisposition to 17 behave, but in the context of my testimony I have defined it la more or 3 css as what people say.
l 19 MS. LETSCHE:
Now, generally your position, and I i
l 20 know I can't repeat everything that you say in your testimony 1
21 but generally it is your position that surveys such as the 22 ones conducted by Dr. Cole are not. valid data in predicting j
l 23 what people would do in an actual emergency; correct?
That's 1
j 24 generally accurate?
i 25 WITNESS MILETI:
In general, yes.
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1 MS. LETSCHE:
You would agree with me, wouldn't 2
you, Dr. Mileti, that there are social scientists who 3
disagree with your position?
4 WITNESS MILETI:
There have been for 50 years.
5 Dr. Cole is one.
Yes.
6 MS. LETSCHE:
There are others in addition to 7
Dr. Cole, aren't there?
8 WITNESS MILETI:
Yes, there are.
9 MS. LP.TSCHR:
And in fact, there are social 10 scientists who specialize in disaster research who believe 11 that behavioral intentions surveys are valid research methods 12 in researching what people would do in an actual emergency; 13 correct?
14 WITNESS MILETI:
It depends on the context.
15 Certainly it is a tool, surveys are a tool used by social 16 scientists including those who research behavior in 17 emergencies.
I have even used them myself.
18 MS. LETSCHE:
And in fact, there are social 19 scientists who specialize in disaster research who have 20 conducted and consider valid research tools behavioral 21 intentions surveys concerning what people would do in the 22 event of a radiological emergency at a nuclear power plant; 23 correct?
24 WITNESS MILETI:
Yes, and I think they are your 25 witnesses.
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MS. LETSCHE:
It is true, is it not, that LILCO's 2
witness Michael Lindell, has conducted such a survey?
3 WITNESS MILETI:
As I recollect, Mike has 4
conducted many surveys.
j 5
MS. LETSCHE:
It is true that Mr. Lindell has i
I 6
conducted a study which involved a behavioral intentions 7
survey asking whether people would evacuate from a 8
hypothetical radiological emergency at a nuclear power plant; 9
is it not?
10 WITNESS MILETI:
Yes, I believe he has.
11 MS. LETSCHE:
And I assume you would consider 12 Mr. Lindell a competent social scientist and competent
~
13 researchist?
14 WITNESS MILETI:
In general, yes.
In fact, I went i
15 to graduate school with him.
16 MS. LETSCHE:
You have worked with him also, j
17 haven't you?
18 WITNESS MILETI:
Yes, in graduate school, and 19 since then in fact.
i i
20 MS. LETSCHE:
Dr. Mileti, would you turn, please, 21 to page 90 of your testimony?
Now, here in the answer.to i
22 question 170 you discuss what you call " monitoring shadow l
23 behavior."
I would like to ask you some questions about this 24 discussion that you have beginning on page 90 and carrying 25 over to 91 and 92.
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1 1
You discuss in this answer the emergency 2
information which you believe would have an effect on 3
people's decisions to seek or not to seek monitoring during 4
an accident at Shoreham, right?
5 WITNESS MILETI:
Yes.
6 MS. LETSCHE:
And you talk on page 91 about the 7
exercise EBS messages referencing monitoring which are 8, 8
8.1, 9 and 9.1.
I take it it is your opinion that only those 9
EBS messages would influence the public's decision on whether 10 to seek or not to seek monitoring for decontamination; 11 correct?
12 WITNESS MILETI:
No, that's incorrect and I have O
13 explained and elaborated on that in my testimony.
14 MS. LETSCHE:
Are you referring to the mention in 15 the second paragraph on page 91 of EBS message number 5?
16 WITNESS MILETI:
That would include that, but 17 there's also other information that I took into account, I 18 believe, in this answer.
19 MS. LETSCHE:
Are there other EBS messages that 20 you discuss in this answer?
21 WITNESS MILETI:
No, there are not.
22 MS. LETSCHE:
Now, I take it that it is your 23 opinion that the information contained in some of the early 24 EBS messages about field monitors being out to measure
(
25 radiation would not have an influence on people's decision
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whether or not to seek monitoring or decontamination; 2
correct?
I 3
WITNESS MILETI:
It would certainly be something 4
people would have heard, and therefore some part of the 5
information network that would need to be taken into 6
account.
j 7
MS. LETSCHE:
Is it your opinion that that 8
information would not lead some people who were not advised i
9 to seek monitoring to seek it anyway?
10 WITNESS MILETI:
It is theoretically possible that 11 it could, but I would judge that it would have a small impact 12 compared to other information that was available regarding O
13 monitoring the day of the exercise.
14 MS. LETSCHE:
Now, how about the information l-15 contained in, for example, EBS message number 7, and those i
16 which followed it, concerning the projected thyroid doses, J
1 17 you know, that little paragraph I'm referring to that's in 18 that bunch of messages that we've talked about at length.
I f
l 19 WITNESS MILETI:
Do you mean the paragraph that 20 talks about percentages that are projected?
I 21 MS. LETSCHE:
The one that says a major release of 22 radiation into the area occurred at 12:00.
Based on 23 measurements of radiation, the thyroid dose is expected to be 24 400 of the U.S.
evacuation guidelines at two miles, 100
(
25 percent at five miles and 40 percent at 10 miles downwind of
(
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1 Shoreham.
Is this based on the five rem child thyroid 2
evacuation protective action guidelines?
3 WITNESS MILETI:
I'm sorry, I have forgotten the 4
question.
5 MS. LETSCHE:
I take it it is your position that 6
information contained in EBS message number 7 would not 7
result in people seeking monitoring even if they had not been 8
advised to.
9 WITNESS MILETI:
I would not exclude any 10 information in the public domain in making a judgment 11 regarding behavior in the public.
Therefore, I would include 12 this in making a judgment and take it into account.
~
13 MS. LETSCHE:
I take it you believe this 14 information could cause people who were not advised to seek 15 monitoring nonetheless to seek it; correct?
16 WITNESS MILETI:
It is theoretically possible that 17 if you can think up a human behavior, that it could occur, 18 and therefore, that's why I wouldn't exclude any information 19 in terms of trying to proffer a judgment about what might 20 have happened had the exercise been real.
21 MS. LETSCHE:
Setting aside whether it is 22 theoretically possible, do you think it would have caused 23 people not advised to seek decontamination to do so?
24 WITNESS MILETI:
It could be some.
25 MS. LETSCHE:
You mentioned a few times, in ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 response to these questions, the other information that would 2
have been available.
Am I correct that you are referring to 3
the explicit monitoring information in EBS messages 8, 8.1, 9
4 and 9.1 in your answers?
5 WITNESS MILETI:
It would include that but not be 6
limited to it.
7 MS. LETSCHE:
What other information is it you 8
refer to?
9 WITNESS MILETI:
As I say in my testimony, I think 10 that -- first, let me explain that this is a different sort 11 of behavior than people fleeing risk.
12 MS. LETSCHE:
Try to answer the question.
I have C/
13 read the other part of your testimony which talks about that, 14 and we're not discussing that because that's not what I'm 15 asking you about.
My question is, in response to some of my 16 other questions you have said that you don't believe large 17 numbers of people would seek monitoring in response to l
18 various items of information we have discussed in light of 19 other information available to them.
I'm trying to find out t
20 what the other information available to them is that you are l
21 referring to.
We have already identified that it includes 22 EDS messages 8, 8.1, 9 and 9.1.
My question to you is what 23 other information is it that you were referring to.
24 WITNESS MILETI:
In my opinion, I think one of the 25 most important pieces of information was not simulated during
{
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the exercise, and as I say in my testimony, it would have 2
'been whatever information would have been made public 3
regarding the results of initial monitoring and 4
decontamination, if any, that occurred at that center.
5 MS. LETSCHS:
Is there any other information that 6
you intended to include in your prior answers to me?
7 WITNESS MILETI:
I would not have excluded any of 8
the information that would have been available to the 9
public.
Those, as I list in my testimony, are the major 10 factors that I think would have had an impact.
11 MS. LETSCHE:
I take it from your answer that it 12 is your belief that the contents of EDS messages 8, 8.1, 9
+
13 and 9.1 would result in people not within these identified 14 zones in those messages deciding not to seek monitoring and 15 decontamination.
16 WITNESS MILETI:
There would have been some who 17 may have decided to seek monitoring.
I think it would have 18 been small.
19 MS. LETSCHE:
And the reason that you believe the l
20 number who would have decided to seek monitoring from outside a
21 those zones would be small is because you believe that those 22
- messages, 8,
8.1, 9 and 9.1, were clear and specific; 23 correct?
24 WITNESS MILETI:
Part of the reason I would 25 believe that it would have been small would be attributable ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 to the EBS messages.
Other parts of my reason for that 2
conclusion is based on parts of my testimony that it had been 3
dropped.
4 MS. LETSCHE:
Moving over to your discussion about 5
the media coverage which you said earlier would have been, 6
and you say on page 92 of your testimony the greatest 7
determinants of any potential monitoring shadow, you say here 8
that it would have been media, particularly broadcast media, 9
accounts about the exposure levels of persons being monitored 10 from the zones being advised to seek monitoring.
You are not 11 excluding, are you, media coverage of other matters during 12 the emergency in terms of determining a monitoring shadow?
U 13 WITNESS MILETI:
In the part of my testimony you 14 are referencing, I was talking about what the media, which 15 was not simulated, might have said about the conclusions of 16 the monitoring and decontamination efforts that would have 17 occurred the day of the accident had it been a real 18 emergency.
19 MS. LETSCHE:
And you say there that you believe 20 the greatest determinant would have been the media coverage 21 about actual monitoring.
My question is, in saying the 22 greatest determinant of potential monitoring shadow would 23 have been likely media accounts, are you intending to exclude 24 media accounts about matters other than the exposure levels 3
25 of persons being monitored?
(G ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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WITNESS MILETI:
In that sentence I was focusing 2
on media accounts about exposure levels of persons being 3
monitored from the zones advised to seek monitoring as I 4
state in my testimony.
5 MS. LETSCHE:
Is it your opinion, Dr. Mileti, that 6
media coverage of emergency events other than exposure levels 7
of persons being monitored would not be a determining factor 8
of monitoring shadow?
9 WITNESS MILETI:
I certainly wouldn't exclude the 10 EBS messages, no.
11 MS. LETSCHE:
The question was media coverage, 12 Dr. Mileti.
Would you exclude media coverage from the O
13 determinants of potential monitoring shadow -- and by " media 14 coverage" I mean other than about exposure levels of persons 15 being monitored.
16 WITNESS MILETI:
I wouldn't exclude any 17 information in the public domain but rather would' focus my 18 attention on what I think would be the key determinants of 19 monitoring.
In this case, the information referenced on page 20 92 of my testimony as well as EBS messages.
I certainly 21 wouldn't exclude any other information that was in the public 22 domain.
23 MS. LETSCHE:
I take it you would not exclude
=
24 media coverage of projected doses or projected dose rates 25 among the determinants of potential monitoring shadow, would ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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you?
2 WITNESS MILETI:
I don't think that would have a 3
big effect but I certainly would take it into account as I 4
tried to do when I was preparing this testimony.
5 MS. LETSCHE:
On page 91, you talk about in the 6
second full paragraph, near the bottom of that you talk about i
7 EBS message number 5.
You talk about the people in zones A,
8 B,
F, G, K and Q who were first advised to evacuate.
After 9
that discussion, you say that it is possible that some of 10 these evacuees would have thought that they had successfully.
1 11 evacuated and did not need to seek monitoring, 12 It is true, is it not, Dr. Mileti, that the pb 13 messages advising monitoring, that is 8, 8.1, 9 and 9.1, or 14 at least starting with 8.1 expressly advised people that they 15 should report for monitoring since they may have been exposed 16 to radiation during their trip out of the EPZ.
That's what 17 the message says; correct?
l 18 WITNESS MILETI:
As I recollect it, yes, I think 19 that's quite accurate.
20 MS. LETSCHE:
I take it that this statement of 21 yours that it is possible that some of these evacuees would 22 have thought that they had successfully evacuated and did not 23 need to seek monitoring means that in your opinion some of 24 the people would not have followed or believed the portion of i
25 this message which says they may have been exposed to i
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1 radiation during their trip out. of the EP; correct?
2 WITNESS MILETI:
That's a potential problem and I 3
think some people may have initially thought that.
That's 4
certainly the way people's preferences to not think that they 5
are exposed to risk would have led them to conclude 6
initially.
That's why it is important to have EBS messages 7
go out over and over and over again to help alleviate that 8
problem.
9 MS. LETSCHE:
Understanding that having this one 10 go out over and over and over would have resulted in the 11 people, even those who thought they had successfully 12 evacuated and did not need to seek monitoring, to understand U
13 that, in fact, they may have been exposed during the trip and 14 they should seek monitoring, right?
15 WITNESS MILETI:
It certainly would have helped.
16 It would have been a process that would have taken times.
17 Some people would have needed to hear it three or four times, 18 for other people they would have needed to hear it more.
19 MS. LETSCHE:
But it is your opinion that persons 20 in zones other than A, B,
F, G, K and Q who had heard over 21 and over that people had been exposed to radiation during the 22 trip out of the EPZ would not have decided to seek monitoring 23 even though not resident of the named zones; is that 24 correct?
25 WITNESS MILETI:
It depends how many times they l
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heard the EBS messages and, as I state in my testimony, it 2
would also depend on the outcome of what the media was 3
reporting about whether or not people were contaminated and 4
what was being done to decontaminate ther, if anything.
5 MS. LETSCHE:
Dr. Mileti, do you think that media 6
reporting of actual radiation readings off of the grass or 7
other kinds of data like that during an accident would have 8
had a similar impact on the public to information about 9
actuai monitoring results?
10 WITNESS MILETI:
It certainly would have a 11 potential impact but I don't think as profound an impact as 4
12 information about what was being done to people at the 13 monitoring center.
For example, if word got out that no one 14 was being decontaminated I don't think there would have been, 15 after that word got out, a potential for a monitoring j
16 shadow.
However, if word got out that people were being 17 decontaminated, and they were being decontaminated by taking 18 showers, I think that people would have tended to take i
19 showers on their own rather than go to a public place to take 20 a shower, so it depends to a great deal, in my opinion as I t
21 state in my testimony, on the basis of what information was i
22 getting out about what was going on in the monitoring center 23 and I think in an emergency like this that would be covered.
24 That was not simulated during the day of the exercise.
25 MS. LETSCHE:
Following up a minute on what you ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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said people's reaction would be if they heard people were 2
contaminated and therefore had to take showers, using that 3
same analysis, if people heard that they needed to be 4
monitored or that a lot of people needed to be monitored and 5
were being monitored, that is something that the public 6
couldn't do on their own without going to the Coliseum; 7
correct?
8 WITNESS MILETI:
I would presume so, yes.
I know 9
I couldn't and I imagine most members of the general public 10 couldn't.
11 MS. LETSCHE:
Now, you say at the end of this 12 second full paragraph on page 1 that the slight monitoring g
13 shadow that could have resulted, and this would result from 14 what you are discussing in this paragraph, would if it 15 existed, come from the fringe zones surrounding the risk 16 zones, in this case A, B,
F, G,
K and Q, is it your opinion 17 that there would not be any, as you term it, " monitoring 18 shadow" in any areas outside the 10-mile zone?
19 WITNESS MILETI:
I can't say there wouldn't be.
20 There could be a person or two or some that might do that.
21 The probability would decrease as distance from these zones 22 decreased.
23 MS. LETSCHE:
And in your opinion, the information 24 contained in EBS message number 7 and those which followed it 25 concerning the fact that there was a 40 percent thyroid dose ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC, 202-347-3700 Nationwide Coverage 800-336-6646
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at the 10-mile point would nonetheless result in only a 2
person or two or a few from outside that zone who would 3
believe they should seek monitoring?
4 WITNESS MILETI:
That's one of the reasons I 5
provide for some shadow monitoring in my testimony and in my 6
estimate.
In addition, however, one cannot single out a 7
particular piece of information and make a judgment.
One 8
needs to look at the whole information system in which people 9
are immersed.
10 MS. LETSCHE:
I take it if there were additional 11 information which was perceived as meaning there was 12 radiation at the 10-mile limit or beyond the 10-mile limit, O
13 that the amount of monitoring shadow from outside the EPZ, i
14 even in your opinion, would increase; is that right?
15 WITNESS MILETI:
Theoretically, I would agree with 8
16 you.
However, in terms of making a practical judgment about 17 what actual behavior would have been, I cannot exclude media 18 accounts of what was going on at the monitoring center.
19 MS. LETSCHE:
I take it if the media accounts did 20 include reports that there were people found to be 21 contaminated at the Coliseum that the amount of monitoring 22 shadow in your opinion would increase; right?
23 WITNESS MILETI:
Theoretically I would agree with 24 the direction of that relationship, yes.
Potentially, it 25 could.
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MS. LETSCHE:
Well, you say in your testimony on 2
page 92, if media accounts depicted extensive decontamination i
3 of all residents in zones A, B,
F, G,
J, K and Q there could 4
be a monitoring shadow?
i 5
WITNESS MILETI: Absolutely.
6 MS. LETSCHE:
You are not limiting it to the 7
situation where there would be media accounts of extensive 8
decontamination of all residents, are you?
It could happen 9
if. it was less extensive and not of every residents; right?
10 WITNESS MILETI:
That's why it is a relationship, 11 yes.
12 MS. LETSCHE:
I take it your opinion between the O
13 relationship between media accounts and the amount of l
14 monitoring shadow would include the shadow from both inside c
1S and outside the 10-mile zone; right?
16 WITNESS MILETI:
I was referring to the potential 17 areas around the zones advised to evacuate, go get monitored i
l 18 independent of whether it was inside or outside the EPZ.
19 MS. LETSCHE:
In saying that you don't intend to j
20 exclude, do you, the areas that are not immediately adjacent 21 to one of the six zones identified in the EBS message to 22 evacuate?
i-23 WITNESS MILETI:
It depends what you mean by i
24
" areas."
The rest of the nation is an area.
That's not 25 adjacent.
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MS. LETSCHE:
Let me be more specific.
You know 2
that there are 17, I believe, zones in the 10-mile zone, 3
something like that?
4 WITNESS MILETI:
I'm willing to say something like 5
that.
I don't know that it is 17 today.
6 MS. LETSCHE:
There are severa] zones within the 7
EPZ zones which are not immediately adjacent to the six that 8
are mentioned in the messages, right?
9 WITNESS MILETI:
That's makes good sense.
10 MS. LETSCHE:
You do not intend to exclude from 11 the potential monitoring shadow that you discuss in your 12 testimony, do you, people in zones that are not immediately
-g 13 adjacent to the six identified in the message?
14 WITNESS MILETI:
I couldn't do that theoretically, 15 no.
16 MS. LETSCHE:
Well, if there were media accounts 17 depicting monitoring and decontamination, you would not 18 exclude people from zones not adjacent to these six from a 19 monitoring shadow, would you?
20 WITNESS MILETI:
Theoretically, it is possible 21 that some, the further you got away, the lower the 22 probability that a shadow could exist, so therefore, I 23 couldn't exclude them because theoretically, it is possible.
24 MS. LETSCHR:
And it is possible, is it not, 25 Dr. Mileti, that even if people may be not adjacent to one of 1
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the six zones identified in the message, that they may have 2
to drive through one of those zones in evacuating; correct?
i 3
WITNESS MILETI:
Yes.
i 4
MS. LETSCHE:
And presumably if they knew they had i
5 to drive through one of those zones when they heard these i
6 messages saying that people in those zones should report L
7 because they may have been exposed to radiation during their O
trip out of the EPZ they would understand that they too 9
should report for decontamination; correct?
10 WITNESS MILETI:
That's a possibility.
11 MS. LETSCHE:
You don't think people would 1
12 understand that from these messages?
13 WITNESS MILETI:
I think it would depend on the 14 whole ball of wax regarding public information.
15 MS. LETSCHE:
I thought you said that you thought
,I 16 these messages were clear and consistent and it says what I 17 just read that people in those zones should report to the i
18 Coliseum since they may have been exposed to radiation during 19 their trip out of the EPZ.
You are saying you think people 20 that drove through those zones wouldn't think it is clear 21 that they should report?
22 WITNESS MILETI:
It depends on when they were j
23 driving through those zones.
l 24 MS. LETSCHE:
The message says they may have been 25 exposed during their trip out of the EPZ.
It doesn't have a
)
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time on it, does it?
2 WITNESS MILETI:
That's true but they may have 3
left the day before for a vacation.
4 MS. LETSCHE:
That wouldn't have been while 5
evacuating, would it?
6 WITNESS MILETI:
That's true.
7 MS. LETSCHE:
If I could have just a moment.
8 (Counse) conferring.)
9 MS. LETSCHE:
I don't have any further questions 10 of this pane).
I would like to move into evidence the 11 exhibits that I have used during this cross-examination, 12 which are, I believe, Suffolk County exercise Exhibits 44
\\'
13 through 49.
14 JUDGE FRYE:
I think it is 45, isn't it?
15 MS. LETSCHE:
You are right.
I made that 16 correction.
45 through 49.
17 JUDGE FRYE:
Any objections?
18 MS. MC CLESKEY:
No objection.
19 MR. PIRFO:
No objection.
20 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
No objection.
21 JUDGE FRYE:
So ordered.
22
( Exhibits 45 through 49 received.)
23 JUDGE FRYE:
Mr. Zahnleuter, any questions?
24 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
Ms. Robinson, I would like to 25 follow up on two questions that Ms. Letsche asked you.
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1 you turn to page 17 of your testimony?
2 WITNESS ROBINSON:
Yes.
3 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
In the top half of the page it 4
says that observer's form shows that the center was ready to 5
activate at 8:08 but because one staff member had not l
6 arrived, the emergency news manager, ENM, waited.
What 7
position did the missing staff member hold?
8 WITNESS ROBINSON:
We'll have to check that.
I'm j
9 not certain.
10 JUDGE FRYE:
What page did you say you were on?
4 11 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
17.
12 WITNESS ROBINSON:
That was one public information
- (
- )
13 staff member on the LERO staff and a replacement was 14 requested from the EOC.
15 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
The emergency news manager 16 decided to activate the ENC at about 8:25.
Did that public 17 information person arrive at 8:25?
18 WITNESS ROBINSON:
No, there was no reason to j
19 wait.
We had sufficient staff there.
There were very few j
20 people there at that time and we had sufficient staff to deal 21 with the existing situation.
1 22 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
If the ENC was actually ready to 23 be activated at 8:08, do you know why the emergency news 24 manager decided to activate at 8:25 as opposed to 8:30 or j
25 some other time?
4
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WITNESS ROBINSON:
He is part of the on-site 2
organization.
He reports to the emergency communications i
3 director in the EOF and I have no way of knowing that.
4 Perhaps Mr. McCaffrey can help you but I cannot, i
5 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
Do you know, Mr. McCaffrey?
6 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
I think yesterday I addressed 7
the point that in my judgment, he could have chosen to 8
activate earlier and as the log says at 8:08 we were ready to 9
activate.
He has that option.
He made the decision to 10 wait.
11 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
Do you think it might have had to 12 do with the fact the ENC learned about the on-site emergency O
13 between 8:21 and 8:25?
14 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
No.
15 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
Let's move to page 27.
16 Ms. Robinson, in the answer to question 44, you say, no, the i
17 marked up EBS messages will not be provided to media 18 representatives.
19 Would you agree with me that the media has become 20 accustomed to receiving marked up EDS messages because that l.
was your practice at the exercise?
21 22 WITNESS ROBINSON:
No.
23 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
Would you agree with me that 24 representatives of the media in any event receiving marked up 25 EBS messages at the exercise and know what they are?
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WITNESS ROBINSON:
Yes.
2 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
What would LERO and LILCO's 3
response be if the media asked for marked up EBS messages?
4 WITNESS ROBINSON:
Well, I would have to explain 5
to them that those were no longer available because the 6
editing was being done on a computer and that it was now 7
clean copy, and I don't think that would be a problem as long 8
as they had the text, and if they asked for the actual text, 9
there would be no reason not to give it to them.
10 MR. ZTHNLEUTER:
You think they would be satisfied 4
11 with not received a marked up EBS messages?
12 WITNESS ROBINSON:
Yes.
13 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
Mr. Patterson, would you agree 14 with that?
15 WITNESS PATTERSON:
Certainly would.
Reporters 16 used to use carbon paper.
They don't anymore.
Some people 17 use carbon paper for 30, 40 years in their career.
They now 18 use computers.
I don't think it would matter.
I think it is 19 a better way.
20 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
Mr. Patterson, do you remember 21 two days ago when you testified that there's never enough i
22 information to satisfy reporters?
23 WITNESS PATTERSON:
Yes.
24 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
And you still think that they 25 would be satisfied in this case with the answer that the EBS l
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1 messages that were marked up were just not available?
2 WITNESS PATTERSON:
Yes.
3 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
Ms. Robinson, let's go to page 4
41.
I'm referring to the answer to questio,76, specifically 5
your answer to a question where you said the Nassau County 6
Police Department is directing traffic and controlling 7
access.
That's being done by the Nassau County Police 8
Department in that area.
The scenario did not specifically 9
establish that the Nassau County Police Department was 10 directing traffic and controlling access to the Coliseum, did 11 it?
12 WITNESS ROBINSON:
On the day of the exercise, g-s 1
13 that was the agreement.
That agreement was in place for the 14 Nassau County Police Department to do that.
15 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
I'm afraid I have to reask the 16 question.
I want to know if the scenario specifically 17 established that.
Did it?
18 (Panel conferring.)
19 WITNESS ROBINSON:
Mr. Daverio has to answer.
20 WITNESS DAVERIO:
As part of the scenario we did 21 not expect the Nassau County Police to be out there directing 22 traffic, if that's what you are asking.
23 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
You did not?
24 WITNESS DAVERIO:
That's correct as part of the
(~
25 scenario.
%)}
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1 MR. Z AEINLEUTER :
In the paragraph above that you 2
testify -- in other words, if the scenario did not establish 3
certain facts those facts did not exist as far as the players 4
were concerned.
This fact, then, about the Nassau County 5
Police and their controlling access at the Coliseum did not 6
exist as far as you are concerned; is that correct?
7 WITNESS ROBINSON:
No, that's not accurate.
8 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
Okay, at the time when you made 9
this statement at the news conference, did you have any l
10 actual knowle'dge that the Nassau County Police Department was 11 directing and controlling access at the Coliseum?
i 12 WITNESS ROBINSON:
That's partially correct.
I j O 13 had knowledge that the Nassau County Police were there, were 14 providing access control and, had there been any real 15 traffic, they could have done it.
i 16 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
So you said it was partially 17 correct being that you did have some actual knowledge that 18 they were actually at the Coliseum?
19 WITNESS ROBINSON:
That's correct.
I did have 20 knowledge.
21 MR. Z AllNLEUTER :
At the time you made this 2
22 statement?
]
23 WITNESS ROBINSON:
That's correct.
24 MR. ZAllNLEUTER:
What process did you go through 25 prior to making this statement that gave you the benefit of ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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that knowledge?
2 WITNESS ROBINSON:
This is exactly the kinds of 3
information that was obtained by calling the EOC where they 4
could get that information by calling over to-the reception 5
center.
6 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
Did you call the EOC?
4 7
WITNESS ROBINSON:
I did many times that day and 8
this was one of the items I was informed about.
I asked them 9
what was happening at the reception center and I was given l
10 back this information.
11 WITNESS DAVERIO:
I would like to add to that that 12 it was my understanding, also, at that time we had the
(:)
l 13 agreement to use the Nassau Coliseum and as part of that we 14 had conversations with the Nassau County Solice that in a 15 real emergency they would of course provide this access.
It 16 was not in the scenario because in any scenario, you do not 17 set up roadblocks and direct traffic but it is perfectly 18 legitimate to say that as per the plan we called them and 19 they are out doing what we would expect.
l 20 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
Ms. Robinson, your testimony is a 21 little bit different, isn't i t?
You have just said you 22 didn't expect the police to be there, you knew they were i
23 there.
24 WITNESS ROBINSON:
I expected them to be there and 25 it was confirmed by telephone.
1 l
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1 WITNESS DAVERIO:
They were there.
They were not i
2 providing as I said direction of traffic.
They were there as 3
a security for the Nassau Coliseum, so they were at the 4
4 building.
5 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
Ms. Robinson, the question that 6
was asked that generated that response didn't include l
7 anything about the Coliseum or the Nassau County police 8
officers, did it?
9 WITNESS ROBINSON:
I would have to go back to the l
j 10 question, but I believe it included -- lot me find it in the l
11 transcript.
i 12 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
Please go back to the question.
4 13 It is on page 40 of your testimony, in answer to question 14 74.
15 WITNESS ROBINSON:
I have it.
16 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
Now, the question that was asked 17 of you doesn't mention anything about the Coliseum or the 10 Nassau County police officers, does it?
19 WITNESS ROBINSON:
Not specifically.
It was a 20 general question.
I gave them -- as I think is perfectly 21 appropriate, I gave them the information that we had, the 22 specific information, the key area within Nassau County is I
23 obviously the reception center and we gave that to them.
I i
24 don't understand the problem.
I'm sorry.
25 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
The question talks about bridges i
1 7
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and tunnels, but would you characterize what you said in 2
response to this question as additionai information?
3 WITNESS ROBINSON:
Well, since there are no 4
bridges or tunnels within the emergency planning zone or 5
between the emergency planning zone and the reception center, 6
I gave -- I think I dealt appropriately with the question.
7 MR. ZAHNLEUTER:
I have no other questions.
8 MR. PIHFO:
I have no questions of this panel.
9 JUDGE FRYE:
Judge Paris has a few questions to 10 ask.
I may have one or two myself.
11 JUDGE PARIS:
Mr. McCaffrey, I want to follow up 12 on your statement that the fact that a site area emergency O
13 was declared at 8:21.
It had no effect or you say it did not 14 affect the decision to activate the ENC at 8:25?
15 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
That's correct.
16 JUDGE PARIS:
There's just a coincidence?
17 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
Seems to be.
10 JUDGE PARIS:
Are you aware when the FEMA 19 guidelines call for news briefings to begin?
20 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
I don't know that offhand.
21 (Panel conferring.)
22 JUDGE PARIS:
Look in NUREG --
23 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
I guess Mr. Daverio described 24 that the other day.
25 JUDGE PARIS:
NUREG-0654, appendix 1, page 1-12.
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1 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
I have it.
2 JUDGE PARIS:
What does that tell you?
3 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
The site area emergency 4
provide press briefings.
5 JUDGE PARIS:
And you think the person who decided 6
to activate at 8:25 was unaware of that?
7 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
I was there during the 8
process of activating and the fact --
9 JUDGE PARIS:
It didn't come up?
10 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
It did but we were scrambling 11 to activate as the record shows we were ready really at 12 8:08.
Our goal is to go into a press conference as soon as O
13 we're activated and ready with enough information we're 14 comfortable with.
As soon as we arrived starting at 7:06 we 15 were gathering information and getting ready for a press 16 conference.
That's my focus.
What happened all of a sudden 17 the conditions changed we get notified of the site area 18 emergency.
That had no affect upon when we did the press 19 conference or activation.
We were going to do that 20 conference as soon as we were ready to go.
I don't recall 21 any discussion that says, whoa, we just got a site area 22 activation, let's go.
I don't remember that.
23 JUDGE SHON:
I have a couple of questions about 24 the way in which the ERS messages and the press releases from 25 LILCO and I.ERO might interact with regard to certain words ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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that I found used in a confusing way.
In particular, the 1
2 terms" radioactivity," " radiation release," high radiation 3
levels and so on.
I notice that the EBS messages and the 4
LERO press releases always speak of a release of radiation, a 5
release of radiation to the air, and so on.
LILCO press 6
release says there are high radiation levels but there's been 7
no release of radioactivity.
Wouldn't Mr. Average, I think I 8
know what the difference is but wouldn't Mr. Average say, are 9
they playing word games with me?
Wouldn't it be better to 10 use a consistent set of terms?
I think of radiation as one 11 thing and radioactivity as quite another but they have been 12 used in some sense interchangeably.
I 13 WITNESS ROBINSON:
One partial answer for that, 14 Judge Shon, and I don't know if it is a satisfactory one, but 15 one partial reason for that is that there was no 16 collaboration between LILCO and LERO on writing press 17 releases or EBS messages.
The LERO material was worked on 18 with the LERO radiation health coordinator, and that was his I
19 terminology.
Now perhaps Dr. Mileti could speak to the fact I
20 of whether or not it would cause any confusion.
I can only d
21 speak for my personal experience with nontechnical people and 22 people not used to it, and they don't perceive any difference 23 in the terms at all.
In fact to them, it is radiation and 24 that's it.
Perhaps Dr. Mileti could help and perhaps 25 Mr. Daverio, f
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JUDGE SHON:
May I ask in that case since the 2
words are apparently indistinguishable to the great masses, 3
why not use the proper terms?
Why not talk about --
4 WITNESS ROBINSON:
I agree with you that that's 5
something that should be corrected.
6 WITNESS PATTERSON:
From a press point of view I 7
think they would not find that untoward.
I think you would 8
find that in a real situation with different people writing 9
different press releases.
You find those differences in 10 phraseology.
11 JUDGE PARIS:
The physicists at Brookhaven would 12 know the difference.
13 WITNESS ROBINSON:
We can correct that.
14 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
As I said earlier in answer 15 to a question, i f, in a real situation, there's a perception 16 of confusion the place we would expect it to come up is 17 either in media inquiry or perhaps a press conference at 18 which point we would be able to engage it.
19 WITNESS MILETI:
I just wanted to add, Judge, a 20 couple of points from a sociological point of view.
From my 21 point of view as a sociologist I read this and I never read 22 that they were different words.
It wouldn't hurt to make 23 them the same.
I don't know that it is going to -- if the 24 exercise had been real I don't know that it would have hurt
/'
25 that they were different in that what's important is that
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1 people be given the image that the radiation is in the air 2
and the way the system was set up was to focus the public's 3
attention on the EBS system and the presumption was that the 4
inconsistency in using different words that you just pointed 5
out would be one of the more minor inconsistencies that would 6
exist in the public domain regarding information, that there 7
would be larger inconsistencies than that and that's why we 8
set up the EBS system to focus people's attention squarely on 9
that.
10 JUDGE SHON:
You have touched upon it and 11 Mr. McCaffrey, I think it was, also touched upon another 12 matter that I wanted to ask one question about that's quite j-
!J 13 different from health physics.
It has to do with the 14 hierarchy of information that you have discussed with the top 15 level, the stratosphere of this hierarchy, being the EBS 16 message, and all the rest, the news releases and such and 17 press conferences being sort of secondary, in fact, in most 18 cases where there were conflicts, the answer that was given 19 was, well, it doesn ' t really ca.ter.
That was only in a news 20 release.
Or that was ori)
.n press conference.
I have 21 noticed that one of the little elementary sociological 22 experiments people do at cocktail parties and party tricks 23 and triat sort of thing is the business of trying to transfer 24 information first without and then with feedback.
You know,
' ', ('}
25 you do this trick where you describe a diagram to people and v
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they try to draw it and if you just describe it they can't 2
draw it at all but,if you let them ask questions you find 3
they make a pretty good -- you transfer the information and 4
make a pretty good attempt at drawing a diagram.
5 It seems to me that the press conference is the l
6 one with a lot of feedback in it where people don't just get 7
told something and that's the end of it, but they get a 8
chance to ask and hone their perception of it.
I think 9
everybody feels that way.
10 Aren't people more likely to trust and rely upon 11 information that has gone through this process?
Aren't they 12 more likely to say that the commentator on the radio says it O
13 is this way.
I know there was an emergency message but I l
14 don't believe that.
15 Isn't this a possible_ reaction?
16 WITNESS MILETI:
Yes and no.
It would depend a 17 great deal on the length of the emergency.
The time frame 18 simulated the day of the exercise had an emergency happening 19 on one day, and the research record shows clearly that in 20 emergencies that are confined in time such ao that, first the a
21 electronic media has a much greater impact than does the 22 newspaper, but as two or three or four days go by and
{
23 sometimes emergencies can last that long it ends up, in fact, 24 being the newspapers, the printed media, particular]y the 25 local newspapers that can have the largest impact.
In a l
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1 quick-moving event, presuming that an eight or 10-hour event 2
is quick, and it certainly is, it would be the electronic 3
media and, as a subset of that in those sorts of events, what l
4 influences people's perceptions the most is what they end up 5
having confirmed for them and focusing attention on something 6
that's repeated over and over again, as the EBS system does 7
helps have that information surface to the top and stand out l
8 for most people in a pool of confusing, conflicting 1
9 information.
10 JUDGE SHON:
Even though electronic news media 11 reporters may be saying something dif ferent about the same 12 time?
l 13 WITNESS MILETI:
Because electronic news media l
14 would be saying something different at the same time.
We 15 have to presume that's the case because that happens in all a
l 16 emergencies.
Editorials are given, people are found that say l
17 the emergency is not going to happen and people are found 18 that say that's the end of life on~ earth.
We have to help 19 people focus in on more appropriate information than those 20 perceptions that also exist in a free society that do surface i
i 21 in emergencies.
I 22 WITNESS DAVERIO:
I think, Judge Shon, one thing l
23 to realize, at leas t in my opinion, is that while you may 24 have that, in the lead on most stories would be evacuation i
25 ordered, so the reinforcement of the EBS message would l
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1 probably be the lead.
There may be other things underneath i
2 it but I think that would be the lead into most electronic l
l 3
media as the highlight of the story.
i l
4 JUDGE SHON:
Thank you.
5 JUDGE FRYE:
Can'I follow up on that for just a 6
moment and perhaps you covered it, Dr. Mileti, and I just 7
didn't quite focus on it, but if you have EBS messages that 8
are being-broadcast every 15 minutes, you are also going to 9
have reporters who will come in at press conferences and they 10 are going to ask questions about the EBS messages.
Would a 11 member or would members of the public in general tend to rely l
12 on the reporters' electronic broadcast of their (1) 13 interpretation of the EBS message based upon the answers to i
14 their questions at a press conference, or the EBS message 4
15 itself?
16 WITNESS MILETI:
The factors that would have the i
17 most profound effect on the perceptions people form in an 18 emergency and then their subsequent behavior is the 19 information that they heard repeated the most through the 20 official information system.
To a large extent, the solution 1
21 to the problem of having conflicting information coming from 4
22 one reporter's interpretation that might be different from j
4 23 another reporter's interpretation is having an EBS system.
I 24 The system per se, and the regulation requiring that is the F
25 first giant step to helping the public perceive and then l
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1 behave appropriately in an emergency.
1 j
2 JUDGE FRYE:
I had one other inquiry that's sort 3
of a matter of my own curiosity as to how the exercise was l
4 conducted or this aspect of it was conducted.
Ms. Robinson, 5
you indicated that your estimate was there were about 200 6
members of the press present.
7 WITNESS ROBINSON:
Press and staff.
8 JUDGE FRYE:
Yes.
Were they actually reporting?
p
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9 Aside from simulated reports, were there actual reports going 10 on?
11 WITNESS ROBINSON:
Oh, yes.
There was extensive 73 12 coverage on the local radio stations, there was television 13 coverage, and I believe every major channel I know, at one 14 point there were 17 channel crews in the room at the same 15 time and all the major New York City stations were there as 16 well as the Long Island stations and there was extensive i
17 print media coverages, Washington Post and New York Times and 18 the Long Island Weekly, so it was very extensive coverage.
19 JUDGE FRYE:
Did anyone evacuate?
20 WITNESS ROBINSON:
No.
21 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
In my perception of what was 22 going on in the room, we had a bank set up so that the radio 23 coverage people could plug into our microphones, so si tting
{)T 24 in front of us at any given time you had anywhere from 10 to 8._
25 12 radio reporters taping what was going on, the back of the ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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1 room there was a raised platform where all of the cameras
+
2 could get a good shot of what was going on so you look out on 3
a sea of cameras at one time and in front in the chairs you 4
have people from The Washington Post, Newsday was there, the 5
local Long Island paper, and if you ever get a chance to look 6
at the tape from the press conferences you will further see 7
in addition to the structured press conferences this informal 8
press inquiry going on, you will see separate one-on-one 1
9 interviews, follow-on questions when you try to get off the 10 podium to get more information you get corralled by reporters 11 who want more information based upon what you gave them.
It
~#
12 was quite an interactive process form.
13 JUDGE FRYE:
The EBS messages, though, were not 14 broadcast, I take it?
15 WITNESS ROBINSON:
They were simulated.
16 JUDGE PARIS:
The EBS messages were simulated and 5
17 broadcast over commercial broadcast stations; is that right?
18 WITNESS ROBINSON:
They were not actually 19 broadcast.
Just simulated but they would be broadcas t over 20 commercial stations.
I 21 JUDGE FRYE: In between your repeated EDS messages, 22 you presumably would have reporters interpreting things?
23 WITNESS ROHINSON:
Absolutely.
That is an 24 assumption.
25 WITNESS MC CAFFREY:
If you were watching the ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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tapes during the day at some point you would see a reporter 2
having gone to a press conference walk outside the news 3
center to a standup interview which then got broadcast 4
later.
That was going on throughout the day.
5 JUDGE FRYE:
Any questions based on any of this?
6 MS. LETSCHE:
I just have one or two.
4 7
Ms. Robinson, in response to Judge Frye's questions about the 8
number of press people at the press conferences, the 200 9
number.that you mentioned earlier was with respect to how 10 many press kits you handed out, correct?
11 WITNESS ROBINSON:
Right, as I explained, that was 12 the only count I had.
13 MS. LETSCHE:
When.I asked you how many people l
14 were in attendance at the press conferences you said roughly 15 100; correct?
16 WITNESS ROBINSON:
I think that would be a maximum 17 number of people at any one time.
18 MS. LETSCHE:
When you talked to me about that, 19 you said those were not all reporters who were present;-
20 right?
f 21 WITNESS ROBINSON:
No, there were editors and 22 photographers and cameramen.
23 MS. LETSCHE:
There were also a lot of lawyers and 24 FEMA observers and LILCO observers and IMPEL and NRC l
25 observers and Intervenors observers in that room, weren't
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there?
2 WITNESS ROBINSON:
There was one FEMA and one NRC 3
observer that I was aware of but there were a number of 4
attorneys.
5 MS. LETSCHE:
That's all I have.
MS. MC CLESKEY:
6 Under the procedures in effect on the day of the exercise, 7
had there been a real emergency, would media monitoring have 8
had access to EBS-messages?
9 WITNESS ROBINSON:
Yes, they would have heard 10 them.
11 MS. MC CLESKEY:
How?
O 12 WITNESS ROBINSON:
There are a number of radios in 13 that room, so they would have heard the actual message.
14 MS. MC CLESKEY:
And under the procedures in 4
i 15 effect on the day of the exercise, had it been a real 16 emergency, would rumor control have had access to the EBS i
17 messages?
18 WITNESS ROBINSON:
No.
19 MS. MC CLESKEY:
Under the procedures -- rumor 20 control would not have had access to the EBS messages?
21 WITNESS ROBINSON:
No, they had a TV monitor to 22 see the live press conferences but did not have a radio in 23 the work station.
24 MS. MC CLESKEY:
Under the procedures in effect on 25 the day of the exercise would media response have had access
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to the EBS messages had it been a real emergency?
2 WITNESS RODINSON:
No, in that facility they would 3
not.
4 MS. MC CLESKEY:
Now, Mr. Daverio, under the new 5
procedures, would media monitoring have access to EBS 6
messages?
__7 WITNESS DAVERIO:
We are going to put in all 8
locations in the new ENC EBS radios so that they all will' 9
know when an EBS message is being given.
10 MS. MC CLESKEY:
So media monitoring would have 5
11 access?
O 12 WITNESS DAVERIO:
All rooms in that area, all work 13 stations would have access to it whether it be rumor control, 14 media monitoring, they will all have an EBS radio in their 15 work station.
I would also point out in the new ENC located i
16 in the same buiJding as the EOF, we have installed an 17 intercom system between EOF and the command room of the ENC, l
18 so that anytime an announcement is being made into the EOF 19 that a declaration has been changed to a higher level of
(
20 emergency that will now be known immediately in the command l
21 room of the ENC.
That command room has an intercom being i
22 installed right now which would allow it to talk to all rooms 23 in the ENC also.
l 24 MS. MC CLESKEY:
Dr. Mileti, do you think that the
' 25 questions that were called in during the exercise would have ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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been different in a real emergency?
2 WITNESS MILETI:
If you mean the rumor questions, 3
yes.
4 MS. MC CLESKEY:
Yes.
5 WITNESS MILETI:
If it were a real emergency, most 6
of people's request for information would have been addressed 7
two basic issues; what's going on and what should I do about 8
it as opposed to, for example, someone calling in after 9
having heard sirens several times and several EBS messages 10 suggesting that the neighborhood be evacuated perhaps even 11 seeing neighbors engage in evacuation, I don't think it is O
12 likely someone would have called in and asked if it was okay 13 to boil water and cook a lobster, for example.
That's just 14 one.
It is not an absurd question but I think what PEMA was 1
15 trying to do is come up with a variety of different questions 16 to ask but in a real emergency, people are trying to find out 17 what's going on and what should they do.
18 MS. MC CLESKEY:
And --
1 I
19 JUDGE PARIS:
FEMA generated those questions; is 20 that right?
21 WITNESS MILETI:
I don't know that I presume 22 that.
I 23 WITNESS DAVERIO:
No.
They were partly generated 24 by the scenario developers.
FEMA input I believe only one of 25 the messages.
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JUDGE PARIS:
Thank you.
2 MS. MC CLESKEY:
And Dr. Mileti, given the 3
emergency information program in the LILCO plan, do you think 4
there would have been extensive number of inquiries of that 5
sort during a real emergency?
6 WITNESS MILETI:
Given the EBS messages, I think 7
the attempt to repeat them over and over and over again and 8
he clear about who should evacuate who didn't need to engage 9
in protective action recommendations, it likely would have 10 minimized the number of questions people had.
Certainly 11 there would have been some, yes.
O 12 MS. MC CLESKEY:
Dr. Mileti, Ms. Letsche, you 13 recall, asked you about whether you would put the KI 14 inf ormation that emergency workers were being advised to take 15 KI into an EBS message or a news release.
Do you remember 16 that?
17 WITNESS MILETI:
Yes, I do.
j 10 MS. MC CLESKEY:
Do you recall you said that if an 19 announcement to the public were to be made about KI for 20 emergency workers, you would like to see it made in the EDS 21 messages, not merely in news re3 cases.
Do you recall that?
s 22 WITNESS MILETI:
I sure do, yes.
I 23 MS. MC CLESKEY:
Also said you thought in real 24 emergencies reporters would find out about the emergency 25 workers having taken the KI, right?
i I
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1 WITNESS MILETI:
Clever devils that they are, they 1
2 would have, yes.
3 MS. MC CLESKEY:
If the ENC received questions 4
from reporters about KI being distributed to emergency l
5 workers, what would you recommend be done with that 6
information for the public?
7 WITNESS MILETI:
I would recommend that an EBS 1
8 message be put out that explains to the public what KI is, 9
why LERO workers were being asked to take it, why they were 10 not being asked to take it, it wasn't being made available to 11 them and that be explained to the public and largely because O
12 that's a protective action that's being engaged in, in the 13 ENC, and that's why, and it is hard to draw the line but you 14 can't put everything into an EBS message but I would have 15 that addressed in an EBS message.
16 MS. MC CLESKEY:
Thank you.
i 1
2 17 Mr. Daverio, do you recall Ms. Letsche asking 18 questions about training for call board operators and 19 district office personnel yesterday?
20 WITNESS DAVERIO:
Yes, I do.
21 MS. MC CLESKEY:
Do you recall her asking whether train [ngwouldprepare
{
22 that them to know whether the plant 23 cou.ld blow up or not?
24 WITNESS DAVERIO:
Yes.
25 MS. MC CLESKEY:
Do you recall the panel answered i
i ace FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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that the training did thought include that information?
2 WITNESS DAVERIO:
I remember that answer.
3 MS. MC CLESKEY:
Is that. answer correct?
4 WITNESS DAVERIO:
No, it is not.
They are 5
specifically instructed that nuclear power plants like 6
Shoreham cannot explode like atomic bombs and in that lesson 7
plan we talk about that the fuel doesn't contain a 8
fissionable material and based on configuration, so they do 9
get an explanation of that.
10 MS. MC CLESKEY:
You recall Ms. Letsche's 11 questions about Dr. Brill's remarks at the ENC?
How do you O
12 think the media would have reacted to Dr. Brill's 13 contradictory responses to LERO and LILCO?
14 WITNESS PATTERSON:
If anything it would enhance 15 LILCO's reliability.
Reporters will ferret out from a 16 variety of sources of conflicting information.
Dr. Brill 17 gave his educa ted opinion as to radiation risks, and it was 18 an optimistic one.
Other scientists would, in all 19 probability, be approached by reporters, they might be more 20 optimistic or pessimistic.
I think what's important is that 21 LILCO was consistent, and that LILCO recommended that the i
j 22 protective actions be followed, so in that sense I think if 23 anything it would not decrease believability, it would 24 enhance it.
(
25 WITNESS MILETI:
May I add something?
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MS. MC CLESKEY:
Sure.
2 WITNESS MILETI:
If LILCO had not provided a 3
Dr. Brill the media would have found one themselves and they 4
probably would have found somebody representing the other 5
extreme.
That sort of thing happens in all emergencies.
In 6
fact I write about that in the other media article that was 7
not presented that I have written in the past.
The solution 8
to that is not to change the character of the free press in a 9
free society because we have emergencies once in a while but 10 to put in something like an EBS system to help the public 11 deal with that conflicting information in actual emergencies (g
')
12 Jike we have here.
13 MS. MC CLESKEY:
Those are all my questions.
14 JUDGE FRYE:
Any recross?
15 MS. LETSCHE:
Mr. Daverio, in response to 16 Ms. McCleskey's questions about about access or ability to 17 hear EHS messages, you talked about some changes.
I take it 18 that the changes providing radios to the various staff people 19 you talked about media response and others, those changes are 20 not contained in revision 7 of the plan, are they?
21 WITNESS DAVERIO:
They are on-site.
I was talking 22 aboIt rumor control, media monitoring and those wouldn't be 23 in rev 7 of the LEHO plan.
24 MS. LETSCHE:
Are those changes actually in the O
t 25 on-site plan now?
1 l
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WITNESS DAVERIO:
No, I said we will make those.
2 MS. LETSCHE:
These are things you are planning on 3
doing sometime in the future, correct?
4 WITNESS DAVERIO:
They will be done right now.
5 All it is is putting the r dio in those rooms.
That's all it 6
entails.
7 MS. LETSCHE:
What it is that you contemplate is 0
that these radios would be on at all times during a real 9
emergency so they can hear the messages?
10 WITNESS DAVERIO:
That's right.
11 MS. LETSCHE:
This intercom you talk about going l O 12 between the ENC and the EOF that would be open constantly so 13 they could hear the announcements; is that right?
14 WITNESS DAVERIO:
No, it is an intercom in the EOF 15 which allows the EOF response manager to talk to the whole 16 area.
He has to flip a switch to turn it on.
It is not I
l 17 something left live all the time.
I 10 MS. LETSCHE:
I thought you said there would be a 19 way the ENC would hear all the announcements at the EOF of 20 changes in levels and things like that.
21 WITNESS DAVERIO:
When he makes an announcement to 22 all EOF he pushes a switch that says "all," which includes 23 the ENC.
24 MS. LETSCHE:
The only thing constantly in the air 25 for all of the people at the ENC would be the radio then, Ace FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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correct?
2 (Panel conferring.)
3 WITNESS DAVERIO:
It is a supplement to everything 4
else we talked about.
They will also have the summary form, 5
media monitoring would have TV and radios.
It is a whole 6
bunch of information.
This is just one more we're giving 7
them.
8 MS. LETSCHE:
I focused on what they will be 9
hearing.
All they will hear, except for the people who also 10 have the TVs on, wi ll be the radios on, right?
11 WITNESS DAVERIO:
The radios -- we may use the EBS O
12 radios which turn themselves on automatically when there's a 13 message rather than leaving them on.
Leaving them on might 14 be disturbing.
My understanding-is we will put EBS radios 15 into the rooms which turn themselves on when EBS messages-are 16 coming on so you wouldn't have the background noise.
17 MS. LETSCHE:
You would hear the EBS messages and 18 not any of the other commentary or other discussions that-19 might be followed on those EDS stations after the messages; 20 right?
21 WITNESS DAVERIO:
They would hear it until they 22 shut' it off but the people whose job it is to monitor the 23 media would be of course monitoring the media.
We're talking 24 about the other functions whose job are not to monitor the 25 media but to give out information based on EBS messages.
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MS. LETSCHE:
These EBS radios that you are 2
planning on using turn themselves on when the EBS messages 3
start but don't turn themselves off when it is over, right?
4 WITNESS DAVERIO:
That's correct.
5 MS. LETSCHE:
Had you s tated before that FEMA did 6
not prepare the rumor control questions, which we have been 7
doing, but that the scenario writers did, the scenario in 8
those messages were in fact written by LILCO; correct?
9 WITNESS DAVERIO:
Or contractors.
10 MS. LETSCHE:
I don't have anything else.
11 MR. PIRFO:
Nothing.
O 12 JUDGE FRYE Gentlemen, Ms. Robinson, thank you 13 very much.
We appreciate your tes timony.
14 (Panel dismissed.)
15 JUDGE FRYE Do you think we need to talk about 16 scheduling at this point?
Have we covered that at this 17 point?
Everyone looks tired.
18 MS. MC CLESKEY:
My only vote is that if we are 19 going to talk more about scheduling we do it and leave for 20 lunch and not come back rather than coming back this 21 afternoon and I'm happy to talk about it if someone else 22 wants to.
23 MS. LETSCHE:
I don't know what cisc there.is to 24 talk about in terms of scheduling.
25 JUDGE FRYE Anyt.hing 3mmediately pending I think ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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is the Contention 50, the time for the LILCO pancl; and the 2
other point is whether there are requests for extension of 3
the guideline that are going to come in on any of the 4
testimony subsequent to that.
5 MS. LETSCHE:
We did indicate in the letter that 6
we sent you, I have lost track of time, last week, that yes, 7
we do intend to explain to you why or give you an estimate 8
with respect to the 15 and 16 testimony.
That has not been 9
prepared yet since that's down the road yet.
10 JUDGE FRYE:
I think since all this seems to be 11 interdependent to a certain extent and I would like to be gi t
12 able to set a schedule which goes down the line at this 1
13 point, so that we can alert people who are going to have to 14 be here, if you could get that next week, do you think you 15 could?
16 MS. LETSCHE:
The information about 15 and 16?
We 17 could get it if we needed to by the end of next week.
I 18 would have to check.
I hate to make representations that 19 bind other people.
20 JUDGE FRYE:
That's sonebody else's --
21 MS. LETSCHE:
Yes.
I can make a quick phone call 22 and find out when they feel they could get that to you.
I 23 could do it now if you would like.
24 JUDGE FRYE:
Yes.
See if you can't do that and 25 let's see if we can't get that sometime during the course of ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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the week or midweek'would be very helpful.
I would like to 2
have it before we get into the question.
Then I suppose that 3
-will be the last item of business.
4 Did you have something?
5 MR. FIRFO:
I spoke with -- it concerns the Loftus 6
prohibition for want of a better term on cross-examination on 7
Monday.
Looking through again, I won't be doing the cross, 8
Mr. Bath will be and I have spoken with him and looked 9
through the testimony --
10 MS. LETSCHE:
Excuse me.
I'm having trouble 9
11 hearing you.
12 JUDGE PARIS:
So am I.
13 MR. PIRFO:
My question, and I raise this with a 14 good deal of trepidation because I'm not sure there's any 15 kind of answer to it but looking through the Suffolk County 16 testimony again and trying to segregate out the testimony 17 where Ms. Loftus is not on that testimony, there's not much 18 left, candidly.
19 JUDGE FRYE:
You mean not many questions in which 20 she does not participate in the answer?
21 MR. PIRFO:
Precisely.
My looking at it, in using 22 a very strict interpretation of the board's ruling, I would 23 have trouble saying can I go into it and not this?
I have 24 talked about it with co-counsel on this, and I guess I'm 25 saying we have problems with it.
Of course we can be taking ACE FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
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the from LILCO and see what they can "get away with," it 2
knowing how far we can go in certain areas, but I see a i
3 problem on the horizon in this context.
4 JUDGE FRYE:
There may be a problem.
I guess we 5
won't know until we get into it.
4 6
MS. LETSCHE:
For the record, I can say that there 7
are a good deal of answers sponsored just by Dr. Cole about 8
his survey, just by Messrs. Ford and Evans about media i
i 9
stuff.
I think Ms. McCleskey would agree with that.
I think 4
l 10 you are right, Judge Frye, that it is something if it ends up l
11 being a-problem, we'll deal with it but I don't think there l
f-
-(_/
12 will be a problem.
2 l
13 MR. PIRFO:
For example, there's a couple of
}
l 14 rather lengthy answers that are primarily sponsored by other 15 witnesses where Ms. Loftus, and I don't say this l
16 derogatorily, pipes in for a line or two somewhere within the l
17 answer.
I would presume that that question, I have been 18 working under the assumption that that question woulu be of f 19 limits to cross-examination on that question.
Should I not I
20 go that far?
l 21 JUDGE FRYE:
Let's get into these questions when 22 we get into the examination.
It is awfully hard to say in 23 the abstract absent a specific question what would be i
.24 permissible and what would not be at this point.
25 MS. LETSCHE:
I think that the discussion we had
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1 yesterday and the rulings made yesterday set out the 4
2 parameters that I think are generally understandable and if 3
there's some question that arises at the time, we'll deal i
4 with it.
5 MR. PIRFO:
It may be the focus of our cross is 6
different.
We may be focusing on that more and we see more 7
problems with it.
It may not be a problem.
I apologize for i
8 the delay in raising it now.
}
9 MS. MC CLESKEY:
May I ask one question?
I don't I
10 want to drag everyone here Monday if it turns out that we 11 can't talk about things.
I'm assuming, for example, that on
! O i.
12 Monday I can talk to Dr. Cole about his survey without 13 Ms. Loftus being here.
14 MS. LETSCHE:
That's correct.
If you are focusing 15 on it, there are a lot of answers which are Dr. Cole 16 explaining the survey,
}
17 MS. MC CLESKEY:
Or the focus group or Rowan and 18 Evans talking about reporter things.
i 19 MS. LETSCHE:
It is just the stuff that will have 20 Dr. Loftus' name in a parenthetical in front of it.
I 21 MR. PIRFO:
That alleviateu a lot of my fears.
I i
j 22 didn' t expect tha t answer f rom you.
Very good.
i l
23 MS. LETSCHE:
Do you want. me to make the cal.1?
I 1
24 JUDGE FRYE:
Yes, and then we'll go home for the 25 weekend.
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1 MS. LETSCHR:
I just got a note that we were, I 2
guess, today served with motions to strike our testimony on 3
Contention 50, and Mr. Miller has requested that he be able 4
to argue those motions to strike at the outset of the 5
training issues so that everyone will be on notice as to 4
l 6
those rulings.
7 JUDGE FRYE:
I think we should take that up i
8 first.
I agree.
9 MR. PIRFO:
I have a problem with that.
Neither I i
10 nor Mr. Bath will be on training, and Mr. Johnson will not be 11 here, may not be here at the outset of when the LILCO panel D
i 1
12 comes on.
i 4
13 JUDGE FRYE:
I think we have to take it up 1
l 14 initially.
I don't know what the objection is, but if the f
15 objection is based on the scope of the testimony as opposed 16 to some procedural ground, the ruling will affect not only t
j 17 Suffolk County but if that something is struck everyone 10 else's testimony, too, so it has to come up first.
19 MR. PIHFO:
Fine.
i
~
20 MS. MC CLESKEY:
Before you make the call I will 21 report back and you may also want to.
Ms. Monahan and i
(
22 Mr. Miller apparently did speak yesterday afternoon, about 50 23 and the problem with Dr. Mileti, and they cannot come to any 24 agreement about dividing out Mileti and Lindell on their j
25 analysis, and we are planning to go forward and Mr. Miller i
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represents that he is going to object to it at the time 2
without Dr. Mileti, with the rest of the training panel on 3
the grounds that you stated, that he would just not ask 4
questions on things that Dr. Mileti was on while Dr. Mi]eti S
is not here.
6 JUDGE FRYE:
Dr. Lindell and Dr. Mileti, their 7
testimony is joint in a sense?
So to the extent that you are 8
excluding Mileti you are probably also excluding Lindell.
9 MS. MC CLESKEY:
Lindell apparently will be here.
10 He is part of the panel, so --
11 JUDGE FRYE:
All right.
Are there extensive --
12 how much is Jeft after you exclude Mileti and Lindell?
13 MS. MC CLESKEY:
A lot.
14 JUDGE FRYE:
A lot?
15 MS. LETSCHE:
As I understand it, it is the first 16 25 pages of the testimony that at least Dr. Mileti is on, 17 which I gather is the reason that Mr. Miller would have a 18 problem of having to start his cross-examination in the 19 middle of the testimony.
20 MS. MC CLESKEY:
The first 25 pages is an analysis 21 that they did of all kinds of organizational things that I'm 22 not really conversant with but it is separated from the rest 23 of it which responds to specific Ltems in the contentions and 24 talks about what happened the day of the exercise and all I
25 that.
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JUDGE FRYE:
While you make your call, let me 2
focus on that out]Ine, preliminary outline.
I take it 3
it was attached to your letter, but it was this outline?
4 MS. LETSCHE:
If you focus on that and look at the 5
LILCO testimony you will see the problem.
I will make my 6
call.
7 JUDGE FRYE:
Then we'll get back together in about 8
five or 10 minutes.
9 (Hecess.)
10 JUDGE FHYE:
Let's go on the record.
I take it 11 that the problem that Mr. Miller is having is the Mileti 12 Lindell testimony which occurs first in the testimony.
It 13 looks to me like that may be available.
The rest of the 14 testimony does not depend upon those conclusions that are 15 stated in I think about the first 27 pages.
16 MS. MC CLESKEY:
That's right.
I hoped they could 17 just agree that they would come and talk about the 27 pages 18 and the rest of the pane] would do the rest but apparently 19 that's not happened.
20 JUDGE FRYE Right.
Well, unlesst i t appears that 21 the rest of it in dependent upon those conclusions stated in 22 the first 27 pages, I would think there's no reason not to go 23 ahead and we'll just come back to that.
24 Any progress.in getting a report by midweek?
25 MS. LETSCHR:
I spoke to Mr. Lambert who is Acn Funnnat ReponTens. INC.
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handling those contentions, lie will endeavor to get it to 2
you as early as he can.
He doesn't think it will be before 3
the end of the week.
It is just because there are several 4
things involving this case that demand filings and his 5
attention, and so he will get it to you as soon as he can but 6
it is unlikely to be before the end of the week.
j 7
JtJDGE FRYE:
That's 15 and 16?
i 0
MS. I.ETSCilE And 21 is in there too.
9 JtJDGE FRYE:
That's part of it?
But the schedule 10 that we have come up with earlier, we had separated out 21.
11 MS. LETSCHR:
There are two different pieces of --
O 12 J11DGE FRYE:
15 and 16 are LILCO and Suffolk 13 County and then we would hear 21 LILCO and Suffolk County, 14 MS. LETSCHR:
I haven't even focused on that.
15 JUDGE FRYE:
That was the way it was put out in 4
16 the thing Mr. Irwin submitted.
17 MS. LETSCHE:
I don't know and I don't want to la make a representation au to how we think it should go because 19 I don't know that.
I'm sorry.
I'm sure that whatever he 20 submito in terms of estimaten wi11 addreas his feelings on 1
21 that.
22 JilDGE FRYE:
thtt he in going to addrenn 15 and 23 16?
24 MS. LETSCHE:
Right.
25 JUDGE FRYE Okay.
Why don'L we adjourn until t
Acti Frintinai. Ri!Poirrt:Rs, INC.
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9:00 Monday morning then.
2 (Whereupon, at 12:10 p.m.,
the hearing was 3
adjourned to reconvene April 27, 1987.)
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CERTIFICATE OF OFFICIAL REPORTER
' O This is to certify that the attached proceedings before the UNITED STATES NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION in the matter of:
NAME OF PROCEEDING:
LONG ISLAND LIGHTING COMPANY (Shoreham Nuclear Power Station, Unit No. 1) 1 DOCKET NO.:
50-322-OL-5 (EP Exercise) 1 PLACE:
HAUPPAUGE, NEW YORK DATE:
THURSDAY, APRIL 23, 1987 were held as herein appears, and that this is the original transcript thereof for the file of the United States Nuclear 3
Regulatory Commission.
(sigt) i (TYPED) j KATHIE S. WELLER Official Reporter ACE-FEDERAL REPORTERS, INC.
Reporter's Affiliation i O
-